From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 1 01:54:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:54:22 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> Message-ID: <42EDC71E.1060209@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > I recommended > ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/commprog/msk-rcv.bas > > Although these days, you need to teach the twenty-sometimes > what Kermit is. Sigh. Wouldn't it be easier to just issue two MODE commands to redirect COM1: to CON, then feed debug a script to write out binary files? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From James at jdfogg.com Mon Aug 1 05:54:59 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 06:54:59 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C60@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's > > knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and > allows transmission via TCPIP? Get an old phone system with analog station cards (for POTS phones) and stick a system with a modem on one extension with it set to autoanswer and call it with a modem from another extension. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 1 08:06:36 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple Protoboard? Message-ID: Is this a protoboard for an Apple 2? http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/Protoboard.jpg It seems to be called "Page P500-3". William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 1 10:25:14 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:25:14 Subject: FA: DEC H7140AB power supply (PDP-11/44), Cromemco s-100 boards, PC/104 boards Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050801102514.323760ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Still sorting out the excess . I'll be posting some PC/104 boards later today and tomorrow. Joe From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 09:36:55 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:36:55 -0400 Subject: What is GenRad 2293 central station? (related to DEC?) In-Reply-To: <42DD6D4D.nailHT3126DMF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42DD6D4D.nailHT3126DMF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Very likely you'll find a Q-bus backplane and DEC cards inside. Yes, there is an M8192 PDP11/73 CPU card installed among other cards. There is also an emulex card probably for MFM disks( one wide ribbon cable with two narrow ribbon cables, just like those MFM controllers in PC). vax, 9000 > > Tim. > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 1 10:29:50 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:29:50 -0500 Subject: Apple Protoboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508011029.50219.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 August 2005 08:06, William Donzelli wrote: > Is this a protoboard for an Apple 2? > > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/Protoboard.jpg > > It seems to be called "Page P500-3". It's got the right formfactor, and seems to have the correct # of pins, so I'd say "most likely". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 1 10:53:39 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:53:39 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase In-Reply-To: <42EDC71E.1060209@oldskool.org> References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050731140839.05195e88@mail> <42EDC71E.1060209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050801105059.050c6d98@mail> At 01:54 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote: >Wouldn't it be easier to just issue two MODE commands to redirect COM1: to CON, then feed debug a script to write out binary files? Hey, that's why I think it would be a useful and interesting FAQ. I thought the other guy's CTRL/Z preservation method was quite cute, too. I'm intrigued by solutions that would require a minimum of prep or magic tools on the sending PC. - John From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 1 11:37:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045C60@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, James Fogg wrote: > > > Just curious...has there ever been a device available to anyone's > > > knowledge that functions like an analog phone line and > > allows transmission via TCPIP? > > Get an old phone system with analog station cards (for POTS phones) and > stick a system with a modem on one extension with it set to autoanswer > and call it with a modem from another extension. I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the guy wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill. The best one I've heard so far is to get something that fools the computer into thinking it's connected to a modem when in actuality it's connected to some sort of terminal server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is also something that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port driver software. A linux box will do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 1 11:38:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Protoboard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > Is this a protoboard for an Apple 2? > > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/Protoboard.jpg > > It seems to be called "Page P500-3". Yes, it is. I could use it if you're not going to be doing anything with it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 1 12:09:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial ConfigurationProblem) Message-ID: <200508011709.KAA10826@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Richard There is no software initialization for these serial chips unless the board has registers to do this. It is usually done with jumpers. I'm not familiar with the SSM boards but unless they got fancy, it should just be jumpers. Check the data sheet for the chip, any of the ones list should be the same. Can you first connect things as RS232 with a light box? You should then be able to make a simple loop back. At lower baud rates, you should be able to watch the lights flicker. A simple echo program should work here. Once there, you should be able to scan the loader program for the I/O operation and the status test used. Then configure your board to use that status bit. Dwight >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >Allison: > > No success so far. I'm going to write a small test program >tomorrow to accept a character from the SSM and echo it back. I have the >two ports configured two different ways -- the first equivalent to a >Revision 1 SIO (active low) and the second equivalent to an 8251. It's >still a remote possibility that the board is bad, so I hope this will >flush it out. > > I'm still hopeful that someone on the list has a working SSM >2p-2s that they could report on how it's configured and how the cable is >wired. This has bothered me all day, which usually means it's a hardware >problem. > > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:09 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial >ConfigurationProblem) > > >> >>Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial >ConfigurationProblem) >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:35:05 -0400 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> >>All: >> >> The problems I'm having have to be related to status bits and >device >>initialization. The board is an SSM 2p+2s which is based on the TMS6011 > >>(which has lots of equivalent UARTs such as the COM2502, 2017, TR1402, >>AY3-1015). The SSM board is very flexible -- I can change status bit >>order and polarity to match almost any configuration need. Right now I >>have it strapped to match the Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1, >>RxStat=bit0, TxStat=bit1, active high polarity). I've also tried TxStat > >>at bit7. > >That should work. > >> >> Does someone have sample working code for initialization, input >and >>output? I have a few datasheets but none of them give sample code >>sequences. I'm missing something here and I'd appreciate a push. > >OH, one more detail.. Most of the MITS software when loaded inits >based on the front pannel sense switches (IN FFh). The configuration >sets the board in use and bits. T he setting are in the MITS software >manuals. > >Allison > > From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Aug 1 12:23:11 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:23:11 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:37:44 PDT." Message-ID: <200508011723.j71HNBth010465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the guy >wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer >running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill. >The best one I've heard so far is to get something that fools the computer >into thinking it's connected to a modem when in actuality it's connected >to some sort of terminal server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is >also something that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port >driver software. A linux box will do. Oh. Now I get it. I'd find an old terminal server which has "reverse telnet". An Xylogics Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the annex directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the modems... (unless, of course, they are somehow wired in, in which case you'll need another bank of modems and a bank of the phone line eliminators we talked about earlier) And, as "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote (whoever that is :-), you can use any linux box to do this. This is true, but you might need a multiport serial card and some software to 'automagically' connect the tcp port to the serial port. I'd be suprised if that software didn't already exist... -brad From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Mon Aug 1 12:24:47 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:24:47 -0400 Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair SerialConfigurati onProblem) Message-ID: Dwight: The software loopback is tonight's project. I have the terminal software set for no flow control which should be OK for low baud and loopback testing. Actually, both the 8251 ACIA and the TMS6011 UAR/T have a reset sequence requiring software initialization (with the 8251 being more arcane than the 6011). With the Bit Streamer board, the baud rate is set by switches but the other line parameters are set in software. With the SSM board, the baud rate is set by a DIP jumper and the line parameters through software. More to come tomorrow... Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:10 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair SerialConfigurationProblem) Hi Richard There is no software initialization for these serial chips unless the board has registers to do this. It is usually done with jumpers. I'm not familiar with the SSM boards but unless they got fancy, it should just be jumpers. Check the data sheet for the chip, any of the ones list should be the same. Can you first connect things as RS232 with a light box? You should then be able to make a simple loop back. At lower baud rates, you should be able to watch the lights flicker. A simple echo program should work here. Once there, you should be able to scan the loader program for the I/O operation and the status test used. Then configure your board to use that status bit. Dwight >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >Allison: > > No success so far. I'm going to write a small test program >tomorrow to accept a character from the SSM and echo it back. I have the >two ports configured two different ways -- the first equivalent to a >Revision 1 SIO (active low) and the second equivalent to an 8251. It's >still a remote possibility that the board is bad, so I hope this will >flush it out. > > I'm still hopeful that someone on the list has a working SSM >2p-2s that they could report on how it's configured and how the cable is >wired. This has bothered me all day, which usually means it's a hardware >problem. > > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:09 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial >ConfigurationProblem) > > >> >>Subject: Serial Configurations (was Devilish Altair Serial >ConfigurationProblem) >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:35:05 -0400 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> >>All: >> >> The problems I'm having have to be related to status bits and >device >>initialization. The board is an SSM 2p+2s which is based on the TMS6011 > >>(which has lots of equivalent UARTs such as the COM2502, 2017, TR1402, >>AY3-1015). The SSM board is very flexible -- I can change status bit >>order and polarity to match almost any configuration need. Right now I >>have it strapped to match the Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1, >>RxStat=bit0, TxStat=bit1, active high polarity). I've also tried TxStat > >>at bit7. > >That should work. > >> >> Does someone have sample working code for initialization, input >and >>output? I have a few datasheets but none of them give sample code >>sequences. I'm missing something here and I'd appreciate a push. > >OH, one more detail.. Most of the MITS software when loaded inits >based on the front pannel sense switches (IN FFh). The configuration >sets the board in use and bits. T he setting are in the MITS software >manuals. > >Allison > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 1 12:45:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase Message-ID: <200508011745.KAA10832@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Foust" > >At 01:54 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote: >>Wouldn't it be easier to just issue two MODE commands to redirect COM1: to CON, then feed debug a script to write out binary files? > >Hey, that's why I think it would be a useful and interesting FAQ. >I thought the other guy's CTRL/Z preservation method was quite >cute, too. I'm intrigued by solutions that would require a >minimum of prep or magic tools on the sending PC. > >- John > > Hi The only time I did anything like this, I used LapLink. One copied a file from the com to a text file and then rename changed it to a *.com file that was the bootstrap loader for the rest of LapLink. The bootstrap file must have avoided anything with a ^z as part of the binary. Similar things can be done for most any setup, requiring no magic tools on the sending side. Code with ^Z's in them can be escaped such that the loader program can change these to the right binary value. The sending program could then be any generic 'copy to comm' program. Dwight From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 1 13:23:25 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:23:25 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508011723.j71HNBth010465@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508011723.j71HNBth010465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200508011323.25528.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 August 2005 12:23, Brad Parker wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the > > guy wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a > > computer running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these > > suggestions are overkill. The best one I've heard so far is to get > > something that fools the computer into thinking it's connected to a > > modem when in actuality it's connected to some sort of terminal > > server that emulates ring signals, etc. This is also something > > that is somewhat easy to write with the write serial port driver > > software. A linux box will do. > > Oh. Now I get it. > > I'd find an old terminal server which has "reverse telnet". An > Xylogics Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the > annex directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the > modems... If anyone here needs or wants some Xylogics Annex Three boxes (64 serial ports per box), I've got at least two available, with some of the serial breakout cables. Another option would be a DECserver that does reverse LAT, or a Xyplex terminal server, which is very much like a clone of a DECserver, only it has telnet capability in addition to LAT (and telnet is a nice thing to have ;). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 13:47:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:47:17 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200507312215.34610.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507311821.49520.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200507312215.34610.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 7/31/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Pics 4141-4149 are of Ethan's talk; "4147" has me on the left, and > > Ethan Dicks on the right. > URL, since I'm aparently retarded: > http://www.sydelko.org/gallery/VCF-MW-2005?page=1 For those who couldn't make it, pics 4141 through 4146 are items that I had with me at the South Pole last year. From the left: An INS8073-based "MC-1" and partially completed protoboard copy, an Elf made in the fashion of the 1970s Popular Electronics articles (256 bytes RAM, HP displays, PIXIE graphics), a Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120, a MicroElf (Mike Riley's design), and a fully-tricked out SBC6120 w/IOB6120 and FP6120 (brought down already built, but the frame used to be a scrap 2"x4"). I had a great time, and was sorry to have to leave at noon. I'll miss next year (wintering at Pole again), but I would love to be able to exhibit in 2007. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 1 14:50:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:50:11 -0700 Subject: HP 7440 User and Service Manual.. Message-ID: <200508011250.11422.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I'm looking for a HP 7440A Plotter User (Operator) and Service Manual. If someone has a scanned copy, please let me know how to download it/them. If a scanned copy is not available - and someone has hard copy manuals and are willing to lend them to me - I'll be glad to pay for shipping both ways. With your permission, I'll also pass it by Al to put on bitsavers.org. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Aug 1 14:53:08 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <20050801195308.378CE3BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Can't be! The 9830 tape drive and cassette are very different to those > used in the 9825. Mea Culpa. Its from the 9825A manual. The web page had the correct attribution all along. I do not know what I was thinking as I was typing the article (prob 9835 as I have the service manual for that one as well). ---------------------------- "Joe R." wrote: > You might want to add this picture > from my website. It shows the tape and belt paths better than the one you > have does. I have added it to the page, much appreciate it. It is better, although kinda low res. Anybody have a better scan of that image? Thanks **vp From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Aug 1 15:47:03 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:47:03 +0200 Subject: Free : 1983 IBM Tape Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050801224000.0306fe10@pop.xs4all.nl> Cleaning up a bit here and just came across an IBM reel tape that is free for p&p. Its a small reel tape and has the following info on the label : REF. NO. TFQE5 PROGRAM 5665-955 FEATURE 5068 REL/LEV 1.00 TAPE 6250 BPI TITLE UMVS12 VOL/VOL 2/2 REFER TO DOCUMENT 044130 MADE IN DENMARK P&P wont be too bad since it fits a bubble envelope so. Locate in the netherlands btw Stefan ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 1 15:30:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508011723.j71HNBth010465@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > I'd find an old terminal server which has "reverse telnet". An Xylogics > Annex would do nicely. Then connect the serial ports on the annex > directly to the BBS box, removing the modems. No need for the modems... Hi Brad. Correct. > (unless, of course, they are somehow wired in, in which case you'll need > another bank of modems and a bank of the phone line eliminators we > talked about earlier) The only stuff I've seen that does this is old US Robotics modem banks. Even a relatively easy (and cheap) to source Livingstone PortMaster will work for you. I have one that I'm keeping for this very purpose (putting old computers online for public tinkering). > And, as "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote (whoever that is :-), you can Probably some dork. > use any linux box to do this. This is true, but you might need a > multiport serial card and some software to 'automagically' connect the > tcp port to the serial port. I'd be suprised if that software didn't > already exist... It does exist: it's called getty ;) And you could just use your standard serial ports. I have a great multi-port (8) ISA serial card that's super easy to configure. It uses standard 16550s mapped to standard base addresses and uses one interrupt. You can even chain up to 4(?) more cards to it that share the same interrupt. It has an external connector (something like a DD-50) that then plugs into a breakout box where you have all 8 ports as DB-25s. It's a generic board and I don't have any info off-hand to help you find one but if anyone's interested then e-mail me and I'll find out where you might be able to order one. I'm sure they turn up on eBay from time to time as well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Aug 1 16:25:51 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:25:51 -0400 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: References: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <1122931551.21728.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 08:56 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/mai > > > n.php > > > > > > Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. > > > > > > Cheers, Wizard > > > > Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? > > Yes, works great. One of the coolest gadgets ever for the A2. Worked pretty good for me too. I've got one in a IIgs. If you read the forums however, he does warn that some CF cards are not compatible w/ the thing. I had good luck w/ some little 128Mb SanDisk CF cards. David > > Steve From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 1 17:02:40 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:02:40 +0100 Subject: Emulex DM01 information In-Reply-To: <42DFFFBE.9040808@compsys.to> References: <42DF5DE2.4060705@gjcp.net> <42DFFFBE.9040808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Hi there, >> I need to find out about the ST506 cables for an Emulex DM01 QBUS >> card. I've just got one with no cables. I understand that it's >> similar to other Emulex MSCP cards (makes sense really) but it has a >> 50-pin cable to connect the drives up. Anyone know how to make up a >> cable for this? Or even, got a spare cable? > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Making up the cable is actually rather easy in this case. > But my cable is buried somewhere at the moment. Basically, > 34 lines are used for the 34 pin edge connector (daisy > chained if there are 2 drives) and the remaining 16 lines > are split into 2 groups of 8 lines, one for each of the > two 20 pin edge connectors, i.e. one for each drive. The > DM01 supports two MFM drives. If no one replies in a day > or two, I will try and locate my cable and specify exactly > how the connectors are set up. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine Did you ever turn this cable up? And does anyone know if the DM01 controller will be compatible with the breakout board and 50-pin plug in a BA23 enclosure? Gordon. From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Aug 1 17:54:54 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:54:54 -0400 Subject: Interex closing down. In-Reply-To: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B63F@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> Message-ID: <200508012254.j71MstoN007825@mail.bcpl.net> On 28 Jul 2005 at 15:35, Mike Gemeny wrote: > I am not sure what it is, but it looks like RTE stuff. The stuff under the "RTECSL" directory is the entire contributed software library for the 21xx series of computers -- from 2114s up through A-series 1000s. Over 2000 programs. The later stuff runs under RTE, but the CSL has a fair number of DOS, BCS, and standalone absolute binaries too. The first release (rev2001) contains all of the programs that HP had accumulated in their contributed library before they turned it over to Interex. I've posted a list of the CSL programs and short descriptions, obtained earlier from Interex, at: http://www.bcpl.net/~dbryan/dropbox/csl-index.html Note that the pair of numbers following the description references the associated FST file, e.g., program "AB2MI" has the codes "4230 B034", so it's in the file "rev4230_b034.fst" in the library. In fact, one of the files (rev4030_z007.fst) contains the complete, final release of RTE-6/VM. Unfortunately, you need an existing (if earlier) version of RTE-6/VM to install it on a bare system, and it's licensed only to run on HP hardware (i.e., no SIMH). The CSL is stored in HP's "FST" archive format. Fortunately, FST is near enough to "tar" to be readable (by GNU tar, at least). Unfortunately, HP filenames contain characters that are illegal as filenames under most other systems (e.g., ">" and "<" are legal and common in HP filenames). I've used tar under the Cygwin emulation layer for Windows and its "managed mode" file handling to allow HP filenames to be restored. It also wouldn't be that hard to modify a tar source to do character substitutions. -- Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 1 18:01:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:01:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050801195308.378CE3BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Aug 1, 5 03:53:08 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Can't be! The 9830 tape drive and cassette are very different to those > > used in the 9825. > > Mea Culpa. Its from the 9825A manual. The web page had the correct I thought so. I've seen the official service manuals for virtually all these machines (and then go back to my own pile of schematics when I actually need to fix the things...) > attribution all along. I do not know what I was thinking as I was > typing the article (prob 9835 as I have the service manual for that > one as well). The 9835 is one machine of that family that I've not had a chance to see inside (I've seen inside the 9825, 9831 and 9845B). I am told it's roughly an HP9845 with all the good bits taken out, I would like to know if any of the good bits were left in, though. One day I'll probably get to pull one apart. I am also told that the 9845A is _very_ different to the 9845B (to the extent that the former has one board with the 2 BPC processors on it, another board with the bus arbitration/switching on it, the latter certainly has 2 boards with one processor and half the bus control logic on each). Again maybe I'll get to see one one day. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 1 19:28:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:28:16 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050801195308.378CE3BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050801192816.3e5f0724@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:53 PM 8/1/05 -0400, you wrote: >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Can't be! The 9830 tape drive and cassette are very different to those >> used in the 9825. > >Mea Culpa. Its from the 9825A manual. The web page had the correct >attribution all along. I do not know what I was thinking as I was >typing the article (prob 9835 as I have the service manual for that >one as well). > >---------------------------- > >"Joe R." wrote: > >> You might want to add this picture >> from my website. It shows the tape and belt paths better than the one you >> have does. >I have added it to the page, much appreciate it. It is better, although >kinda low res. Anybody have a better scan of that image? I think I have a copy of that issue of the HPJ. I'll see if that picture is in it. Joe > >Thanks > >**vp > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 1 18:51:40 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:51:40 -0400 Subject: Interex closing down. In-Reply-To: <200508012254.j71MstoN007825@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200508012254.j71MstoN007825@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <42EEB58C.nailG8U1R93GT@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The stuff under the "RTECSL" directory is the entire contributed > software library for the 21xx series [...] Over 2000 programs. This is a remarkable collection. Imagine if we had the same for DECUS libraries etc. Not that we're doing badly - all the popular things appeared on DECUS SIG tapes or the collection tapes and are readily available - but having a complete collection packaged up in one place is fabulous. Thanks very much for saving the csl-index, BTW. It makes all even more fabulous. Tim. From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Aug 1 20:01:09 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Converting GDS files off of some 9tracks... In-Reply-To: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> References: <42E66CC6.2080603@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > I wanted to see if perhaps any LSI/CAD people may be on the list that have > done work on IC layouts from back in the 80's. I have numerous 800BPI > 9tracks that contain GDS binary streams on them. > > I need a conversion app/util to pull the data off of the tapes and back into > GDS format. I work with GDS every day in my real job. It's platform neutral, with everything specified down to the byte ordering and alignment (16-bit). Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to do, there's no conversion required. Any CAD tool capable of reading GDS should understand it. Contact me offline if you want to talk more. Steve From lsprung at optonline.net Mon Aug 1 20:07:52 2005 From: lsprung at optonline.net (lance sprung) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:07:52 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay Message-ID: I usually just listen in to the folks on this list, but I was curious why there has been no mention here of the Kenbak-1 that's been on ebay all week? I know I bid on it, but once it exceeded $5k, it got difficult to comprehend the price. Only 40 made, if it was a rare coin or stamp, it would be worth tens of thousands I guess. Thanks. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 20:46:36 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050802014637.29476.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an apple-1 but I guess not as historically significant(?), maybe that Nova Scotia guy will start selling his lot of seven Kenbak-1's, 70K worth of computers, not a bad investment --- lance sprung wrote: > I usually just listen in to the folks on this list, > but I was curious why > there has been no mention here of the Kenbak-1 > that's been on ebay all week? > I know I bid on it, but once it exceeded $5k, it got > difficult to comprehend > the price. Only 40 made, if it was a rare coin or > stamp, it would be worth > tens of thousands I guess. Thanks. > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Aug 1 21:17:23 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:17:23 -0400 Subject: Emulex DM01 information In-Reply-To: <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> References: <42DF5DE2.4060705@gjcp.net> <42DFFFBE.9040808@compsys.to> <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42EED7B3.7010404@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> Hi there, >>> I need to find out about the ST506 cables for an Emulex DM01 QBUS >>> card. I've just got one with no cables. I understand that it's >>> similar to other Emulex MSCP cards (makes sense really) but it has a >>> 50-pin cable to connect the drives up. Anyone know how to make up a >>> cable for this? Or even, got a spare cable? >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> Making up the cable is actually rather easy in this case. >> But my cable is buried somewhere at the moment. Basically, >> 34 lines are used for the 34 pin edge connector (daisy >> chained if there are 2 drives) and the remaining 16 lines >> are split into 2 groups of 8 lines, one for each of the >> two 20 pin edge connectors, i.e. one for each drive. The >> DM01 supports two MFM drives. If no one replies in a day >> or two, I will try and locate my cable and specify exactly >> how the connectors are set up. >> >> Sincerely yours, >> >> Jerome Fine > > > Did you ever turn this cable up? And does anyone know if the DM01 > controller will be compatible with the breakout board and 50-pin plug > in a BA23 enclosure? Jerome Fine replies: I still have not had time to look. I was mostly waiting for someone else to reply. If by the middle of next week, no one else has provided a reference (perhaps bitsavers has the manual), then I will try and find the cable. The breakout board for BOTH a BA23 and the BA123 are NOT compatible with the cable for the DM01!!!!!!!!!! If you read the description of the cable needed for the DM01, you immediately realize it is totally different than what the RQDX3 uses. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Aug 1 21:27:33 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:27:33 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802014637.29476.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050802014637.29476.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42EEDA15.1010604@jcwren.com> Are there any PDFs or scans of the schematics online? I poked around a little, couldn't find anything. --jc steve wrote: >well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an >apple-1 but I guess not as historically >significant(?), maybe that Nova Scotia guy will start >selling his lot of seven Kenbak-1's, 70K worth of >computers, not a bad investment > >--- lance sprung wrote: > > > >>I usually just listen in to the folks on this list, >>but I was curious why >>there has been no mention here of the Kenbak-1 >>that's been on ebay all week? >>I know I bid on it, but once it exceeded $5k, it got >>difficult to comprehend >>the price. Only 40 made, if it was a rare coin or >>stamp, it would be worth >>tens of thousands I guess. Thanks. >> >> >> >> > > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 21:48:15 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <42EEDA15.1010604@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20050802024815.25554.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> I couldn't find anything either. A year or so ago I talked to both Robert Nielsen (apparently the original owner of the seven Kenbaks) and John Blankenbaker himself, both were totally uninterested in providing me with any information whatsoever. I guess its in the "vault":( --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > Are there any PDFs or scans of the schematics > online? I poked around a > little, couldn't find anything. > > --jc > > steve wrote: > > >well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > >apple-1 but I guess not as historically > >significant(?), maybe that Nova Scotia guy will > start > >selling his lot of seven Kenbak-1's, 70K worth of > >computers, not a bad investment > > > >--- lance sprung wrote: > > > > > > > >>I usually just listen in to the folks on this > list, > >>but I was curious why > >>there has been no mention here of the Kenbak-1 > >>that's been on ebay all week? > >>I know I bid on it, but once it exceeded $5k, it > got > >>difficult to comprehend > >>the price. Only 40 made, if it was a rare coin or > >>stamp, it would be worth > >>tens of thousands I guess. Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________ > >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From herby1620 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 1 03:14:58 2005 From: herby1620 at yahoo.com (Herbert C. Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 01:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 (Jules Richardson) Message-ID: <20050801081458.57701.qmail@web30807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The TG43 signal has NOTHING to do with pre-compensation. The original IBM specification for single density (128 byte per sector, 26 sector per track, 77 tracks) floppies has an option to change the write current on the drive head for the more densely packed sectors on the interior of the disk. because of the constant angular velocity (360 rpm to be exact) the interior tracks were more dense than the outer ones. To prevent the bits from blasting into each other they (IBM) reduced the write current on the inside (greater than 43, thus TG43) of the disk. This was purely a drive option. Some later drives had more smarts and could count track position on their own, and didn't need the signal. Precompensation was NOT used on single density 8 inch drives. When things changed to double density drives (MFM encoding) precompensation was necessary when too many transitions were next to each other. The floppy formatter chip usually did this internally, and since it had the track register, it could do it "automagically". Some did it differently, but it basically shifted the bits a bit to one side or the other to "compensate" for bit crowding. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com Mon Aug 1 07:37:00 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:37:00 -0400 Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request Message-ID: when he gets them scanned, where will they end up? Question on HPL, for anyone willing to help, The following line of code gets a value from the keyboard buffer. I looked in HPL Operating Manual 98614-90010 manual for keycode conversion table ( page B-3) and it only goes to 255. Where do I find out what these 2874,2873...ect values are , with respect to the keyboard buffer? 65: "kbd":pbeep 2460,.05;key}K;if K=2874 or K=2873;1}Z;kret 66: if K=2867;1}Z}W;kret 67: if K>=2896 and K<=2906;gto "char" 68: if K>=2916 and K<=2941;gto "char" 69: if K>=2788 and K<=2813;gto "char" 70: if K=2782;gto "char" 71: if K=2862;if T>0;" "}V$[T,T];T-1}T;gto "kret" 72: if K=2845;aclr ;gclr;tabxy 61,17;prt "(RAM) HPL 2.1 Ready";stp ;end 73: gto "kret" 74: 75: "kret":V$[1,16]}T$[1];kret 76: 77: "char":if D=0;1}S;if T<16;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" 78: if D>0 and D<5;if T<6;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" 79: gto "kret" |---------+-----------------------------> | | "Joe R." | | | | | | Sent by: | | | cctech-bounces at cla| | | ssiccmp.org | | | | | | | | | 07/30/2005 10:19 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | "General | | | Discussion: | | | On-Topic Posts | | | Only" | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | | cc: | | Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Oops! I forgot to add that HP refers the HPL users to the HP 9825 Calculator manual for more details on HPL. There's an auction of E-bay right now for a set of HP 9825 manuals. That's what reminded me about the referral. Joe At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update >(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual >(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) >is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? > >Hutch I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference Manual. Joe From shakeandbake at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 17:16:21 2005 From: shakeandbake at sbcglobal.net (JACKIE TAYLOR) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MemoryWriter 620 Message-ID: <20050801221621.27455.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> hi i am so sorry i dont know anything about computers so i dont know if i clicked on the right site. please please help me. i am looking for a 620 memorywriter. i dont care how old it is just so it works. i sure hope you can help me. thank you. please email me at getaylor18 at aol.com jackie From shakeandbake at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 17:18:40 2005 From: shakeandbake at sbcglobal.net (JACKIE TAYLOR) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selectric Typewriter conversions Message-ID: <20050801221840.8015.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> hi tom i am so sorry that i dont know anything about computers so i dont know if i clicked on to the right site. please please help me. where can i find a memorywriter 620. i dont care if it is old just so that it works. thank you please email me at getaylor at aol.com jackie From pete at bartusek.com Mon Aug 1 22:02:33 2005 From: pete at bartusek.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:02:33 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508011645.j71GjKPJ004810@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508020259.j722xDd25608@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Essentially the layout would be this. I have a computer with 4 internal modems in it. Has to be internal, I can't do this with external modems/serial ports. Somehow I get it configured so that I can telnet from the internet to this "emulator" and it directs my telnet session to one of the 4 free analog lines. Now, there's some solutions like lantronix UDS devices, where the device has an ethernet jack and a 25 pin serial port and it can be set to emulate an external modem, so folks can telnet to this device and it then tricks the computer into thinking a modem connection is made... ...but my scenario is different in that I want the connection going to the PC to still be analog lines. So, this device would have to have some sort of modem emulation of its own. It sounds sort of off-the-wall, but I wanted to run it by the group to see if it rang any bells. Maybe there's some situation where such a device would have been developed, but I'm not seeing the connection yet. Perhaps if you were putting a multiline BBS system (that didn't support external modems) on a local LAN? Maybe that's stretching the boundaries of sensible communications a bit :) Pete From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 22:15:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:15:36 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507312026.j6VKQwd6091712@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507300708.j6U780d20481@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <200507312026.j6VKQwd6091712@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/31/05, Director wrote: > I have seen something like that. It essentially simulates a telephone > network. You would use it to test modems, for example, or to connect > machines that had internal modems. I think I saw it being sold by Black Box. > They are not the cheapest outfit in the world. It's like buying at the local > convenience store. IIRC they were over five hundred dollars. At Software Results, we used to make a two-port "CO Simulator" like the one that Black Box sells. Ours was $700, and allowed you to make simple connections, or to make "bad" connections on demand, depending on what phone numbers you dialed. We used our own products to debug autodialer software for our protocol engines. Handy, but pricey. -ethan From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Aug 1 22:47:58 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:47:58 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802024815.25554.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010d01c59714$f9ccdd20$6e7ba8c0@p933> John sent me original coding sheets but hasn't located anything else of interest (or doesn't want to provide it.) The Computer Museum of Nova Scotia sells a CD with most of the original docs, but they are photos and not scans (i.e. he propped the book up on a stand and took a digital photo of it) so they are harder to use than I'd like, but hopefully he'll scan stuff someday. I'd post those, but they aren't mine. . . I don't know anyone else who has docs. My Kenbak didn't come with any. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay I couldn't find anything either. A year or so ago I talked to both Robert Nielsen (apparently the original owner of the seven Kenbaks) and John Blankenbaker himself, both were totally uninterested in providing me with any information whatsoever. I guess its in the "vault":( From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 1 23:04:57 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802014637.29476.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050802040457.52673.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> --- steve wrote: > well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > apple-1 Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same guy who bought that "hobby computer in a wooden case" that was the subject of such wild speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an NRI 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the Kenbak and be in fact the first computer kit ever marketed. Does anyone know the real scoop on that? --Bill From news at computercollector.com Mon Aug 1 23:24:30 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:24:30 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802040457.52673.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508020430.j724UPC7009997@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same guy Was there more than one Apple 1 for sale? The one mentioned on this list on July 21 was withdrawn with no bids. (Although the seller, Steve Fish, happily answers his email.) http://tinyurl.com/bb4dl -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay --- steve wrote: > well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > apple-1 Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same guy who bought that "hobby computer in a wooden case" that was the subject of such wild speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an NRI 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the Kenbak and be in fact the first computer kit ever marketed. Does anyone know the real scoop on that? --Bill From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 1 23:50:33 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:50:33 -0700 Subject: DECMATE I - Chicken or the Egg? In-Reply-To: <200508011700.j71H04cO004981@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508011700.j71H04cO004981@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: A friend came across a DECMATE I and we have been playing with the beast, but are unable to figure out how to get a system loaded without the necessary floppies for the RX02. It talks nicely to my VAXStation 3540 as a VT100 (DP278A option), but it looks only like a terminal. I've Googled DECMATE and am totally FAQed up with the history and long lists of software with little in the way of description. Is there any runes to cast or incantations to key in so that we might be able to load in a system over the RS232? Any help will be greatly appreciated. CRC From news at computercollector.com Tue Aug 2 00:05:55 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:05:55 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200508020430.j724UPC7009997@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200508020511.j725BeMw010334@keith.ezwind.net> Nevermind, I misunderstood. In the place where BM wrote "Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same guy who bought that 'hobby computer'...", I thought he meant the guy who bought the real Apple 1, who isn't yet known (at least to me). Instead, BM meant our friend Dennis Komisky again. Dennis, please, check in with us here on cctalk!! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:25 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Kenbak-1 on Ebay >>> Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the >>> same guy Was there more than one Apple 1 for sale? The one mentioned on this list on July 21 was withdrawn with no bids. (Although the seller, Steve Fish, happily answers his email.) http://tinyurl.com/bb4dl -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 12:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay --- steve wrote: > well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > apple-1 Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same guy who bought that "hobby computer in a wooden case" that was the subject of such wild speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an NRI 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the Kenbak and be in fact the first computer kit ever marketed. Does anyone know the real scoop on that? --Bill From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 00:10:43 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802040457.52673.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050802051043.28429.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the first one without some qualifications(computer using relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor etc), I think in the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was available from Radio Electronics. For microprocessor based computers the original manufacturer always made the first computers based on their processor (so if you assume the 4004 was the first microprocessor then Intel Intellec or its single board cousin Sim-4 could be considered the first microprocessor based computers). --- William Maddox wrote: > --- steve wrote: > > > well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > > apple-1 > > Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning > bidder is the same guy who bought that "hobby > computer > in a wooden case" that was the subject of such wild > speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an NRI > 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the > Kenbak > and be in fact the first computer kit ever marketed. > > Does anyone know the real scoop on that? > > --Bill > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 2 00:14:46 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200508020511.j725BeMw010334@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050802051446.89596.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Instead, BM meant our friend Dennis Komisky again. > Dennis, please, check in > with us here on cctalk!! No, no, no! Not Dennis. This was "collectrhc". Here's the ersataz "Apple-1" auction I was referring to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 --Bill From news at computercollector.com Tue Aug 2 00:19:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:19:52 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802051043.28429.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508020525.j725PYvn010443@keith.ezwind.net> Regarding the "first" PC specifically, Doug Salot explains it quite well: http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the first one without some qualifications(computer using relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor etc), I think in the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was available from Radio Electronics. For microprocessor based computers the original manufacturer always made the first computers based on their processor (so if you assume the 4004 was the first microprocessor then Intel Intellec or its single board cousin Sim-4 could be considered the first microprocessor based computers). --- William Maddox wrote: > --- steve wrote: > > > well it went for ten of thousands, rarer then an > > apple-1 > > Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning bidder is the same > guy who bought that "hobby computer in a wooden case" that was the > subject of such wild speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an > NRI 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the Kenbak and be in > fact the first computer kit ever marketed. > > Does anyone know the real scoop on that? > > --Bill > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 2 00:21:37 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802051043.28429.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050802052137.65587.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> --- steve wrote: > I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the > first one without some qualifications(computer using > relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor etc), I think in > the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was > available from Radio Electronics. Simon was a construction project, but I am fairly sure that it was never offered in kit form. I certainly mean to exclude anything that is not an electronic stored-program digital computer, including the Geniac and various "electronic slide rule" analog computers that were sold as kits as early as the 1950's. > For microprocessor based computers the original > manufacturer always made the first computers based > on > their processor (so if you assume the 4004 was the > first microprocessor then Intel Intellec or its > single > board cousin Sim-4 could be considered the first > microprocessor based computers). Definitely. The question at issue is what was the first computer sold in *kit* form. Neither the Kenback nor the NRI 832 used a microprocessor, however, though I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Intellec or another Intel development system predated them, as they were all roughly contemporaneous around 1971 or so. --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 2 00:31:53 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NRI 832 Message-ID: <20050802053153.96891.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a copy of the NRI 832 documentation? It was sold as part of a correspondence course, and was presumably quite well documented by the course materials. --Bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 2 01:06:12 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 02:06:12 -0400 Subject: MO drives References: <20050802053153.96891.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> A while back there was talk about the life of CDR's for archives, how do Magnetic Optical Disks (MO) work for archives? I recently got my hands on a 1.3GB 5.25" Olypus MO Unit with about 100 Cartridges (40+ never used, all Rewritable) and was thinking of backing up my older files (Amiga , 68K Mac etc) to this media. The hard case seems like it would take care of one major media killer (scratches). From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 04:34:23 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:34:23 +0200 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508020259.j722xDd25608@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200508011645.j71GjKPJ004810@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200508020259.j722xDd25608@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <20050802113423.6b897b90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:02:33 -0400 "Pete Bartusek" wrote: > Essentially the layout would be this. I have a computer with 4 > internal modems in it. Has to be internal, I can't do this with > external modems/serial ports. Somehow I get it configured so that I > can telnet from the internet to this "emulator" and it directs my > telnet session to one of the 4 free analog lines. Get a terminal server with "reverse telnet" capability, connect modems to the serial lines, connect the modems back-to-back to the POTS lines of the internal modem and that's it. OK, most likely you have to do some tricks to get a ring signal when someone connects via telnet to the terminal server. E.g. it may be enough to use DTR from the treminal server to initiate a ring tone generator on the POTS line between the modems. Or get a old == cheap small analog PBX... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 2 06:02:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:02:27 -0400 Subject: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 (Jules Richardson) Message-ID: <0IKL0052LDBUY4I3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TG43 signal and the Nec 765 (Jules Richardson) > From: "Herbert C. Williams" > Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:14:58 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >The TG43 signal has NOTHING to do with pre-compensation. The original >IBM specification for single density (128 byte per sector, 26 sector >per >track, 77 tracks) floppies has an option to change the write current on IBM spec aside that, had little to do with what was done. >the drive head for the more densely packed sectors on the interior of >the disk. because of the constant angular velocity (360 rpm to be >exact) the interior tracks were more dense than the outer ones. To >prevent the bits from blasting into each other they (IBM) reduced the >write current on the inside (greater than 43, thus TG43) of the disk. >This was purely a drive option. Some later drives had more smarts and >could count track position on their own, and didn't need the signal. Precomp wasn't _required_ for Single density,however double density it was required. Also some vendows found that modifying the precompensation amount (due to bit crowding) based on TG43. Now I'd also add that TG43s effect on write current also had a similar effect on the bit shift that precomp would and the combined effect could be very profound. >Precompensation was NOT used on single density 8 inch drives. When Look at what you have already stated. Reduced write current was used to compensate for bit crowding on inner tracks.. if that not write compensation? Precomp is used for the the same reason only its based on the bit pattern. >things changed to double density drives (MFM encoding) precompensation >was necessary when too many transitions were next to each other. The >floppy formatter chip usually did this internally, and since it had the >track register, it could do it "automagically". Some did it >differently, but it basically shifted the bits a bit to one side or the >other to "compensate" for bit crowding. Actually the first generation (1791 and 765A) double density FDC chips did NOT do the precomp internally but instead supplied the signals needed to do it externally using fast TTL. Allison From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 2 06:33:20 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:33:20 +0200 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: References: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <42EF7620.14156.F7D899CC@localhost> Am 30 Jul 2005 22:24 meinte Zane H. Healy: > >Check this out: > >http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php > >Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. > Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? Works quite fine for (almost) all Apple II bus computers. Well, as long as you use ProDOS.I realy dislike the way he did Partitioning. It wouldn't have been a lot more to make it at least a bit PC-compatible. Looking into the hardware I would never have belived it to work in the first place, since the apple bus is quite noisy from nowadays perspective. So I'm surprised how well it worked. If you need a solid state r/w disk, go ahead and buy it. If you just like to have a read only Flash disk, you're eventualy better off with my new little Flash disk. Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Aug 2 06:37:08 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs In-Reply-To: <1122931551.21728.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <20050730204252.UUTM27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <1122931551.21728.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, David Holland wrote: > > > Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? > > > > Yes, works great. One of the coolest gadgets ever for the A2. > > Worked pretty good for me too. I've got one in a IIgs. If you read the > forums however, he does warn that some CF cards are not compatible w/ > the thing. I had good luck w/ some little 128Mb SanDisk CF cards. I believe that's past history. The developer has since diagnosed and corrected a timing issue (EPLD and wiring mods required) and it should work with any CF card. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 2 06:45:31 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:45:31 +0200 Subject: VCF Midwest - off to a great start In-Reply-To: <012c01c5963f$e2c7ad10$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42EF78FB.15938.F7E3C115@localhost> Am 31 Jul 2005 21:22 meinte Jay West: > Jack wrote... > > Hans Franke also > > gave a (relatively) impromptu presentation on photographing vintage > > computers. > I forgot to corner Hans and ask him to condense that to a knowledgebase > article ;) Lucky me:) H. (And no, I did not read the post I'm responding to) -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From fm.arnold at gmx.net Tue Aug 2 08:50:04 2005 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:50:04 +0100 Subject: Emulex DM01 information Message-ID: Message: 26 Subject: Re: Emulex DM01 information >Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> Hi there, >>> I need to find out about the ST506 cables for an Emulex DM01 QBUS >>> card. I've just got one with no cables. I understand that it's >>> similar to other Emulex MSCP cards (makes sense really) but it has a >>> 50-pin cable to connect the drives up. Anyone know how to make up a >>> cable for this? Or even, got a spare cable? >> >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> Making up the cable is actually rather easy in this case. >> But my cable is buried somewhere at the moment. Basically, >> 34 lines are used for the 34 pin edge connector (daisy >> chained if there are 2 drives) and the remaining 16 lines >> are split into 2 groups of 8 lines, one for each of the >> two 20 pin edge connectors, i.e. one for each drive. The >> DM01 supports two MFM drives. If no one replies in a day >> or two, I will try and locate my cable and specify exactly >> how the connectors are set up. >> > >Did you ever turn this cable up? And does anyone know if the DM01 >controller will be compatible with the breakout board and 50-pin plug in >a BA23 enclosure? Yes, I did make those cabes some long time ago. I have no idea if the DM01 and the RQDX3 have the same pinout on the Drive-plug. But if you have the breakout board and a ohm-meter at hand I can suppley you with the relevant manual pages of the DM01 so you can make the cable and tell us the nice to know answer to the compatibility issue. Just tell me where to sent this, if not above adress. I will scan these pages tonight. Frank From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 2 09:36:07 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:36:07 Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050802093607.41673ca2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:37 AM 8/1/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >when he gets them scanned, where will they end up? Bitsavers of course! > > Question on HPL, for anyone willing to help, >The following line of code gets a value from the keyboard buffer. I looked >in HPL Operating Manual 98614-90010 manual for keycode conversion table ( >page B-3) and it only goes to 255. Where do I find out what these >2874,2873...ect values are , with respect to the keyboard buffer? I have no idea. I've never used those functions. Just as a guess I check and see if it performs a MOD function to any out of range values. Joe > >65: "kbd":pbeep 2460,.05;key}K;if K=2874 or K=2873;1}Z;kret >66: if K=2867;1}Z}W;kret >67: if K>=2896 and K<=2906;gto "char" >68: if K>=2916 and K<=2941;gto "char" >69: if K>=2788 and K<=2813;gto "char" >70: if K=2782;gto "char" >71: if K=2862;if T>0;" "}V$[T,T];T-1}T;gto "kret" >72: if K=2845;aclr ;gclr;tabxy 61,17;prt "(RAM) HPL 2.1 Ready";stp ;end >73: gto "kret" >74: >75: "kret":V$[1,16]}T$[1];kret >76: >77: "char":if D=0;1}S;if T<16;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" >78: if D>0 and D<5;if T<6;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" >79: gto "kret" > > > > > >|---------+-----------------------------> >| | "Joe R." | >| | | | m> | >| | Sent by: | >| | cctech-bounces at cla| >| | ssiccmp.org | >| | | >| | | >| | 07/30/2005 10:19 | >| | AM | >| | Please respond to | >| | "General | >| | Discussion: | >| | On-Topic Posts | >| | Only" | >| | | >|---------+-----------------------------> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------| > | | > | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | > | cc: | > | Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request | > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------| > > > > > Oops! I forgot to add that HP refers the HPL users to the HP 9825 >Calculator manual for more details on HPL. There's an auction of E-bay >right now for a set of HP 9825 manuals. That's what reminded me about the >referral. > > >QcategoryZ16210QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > > Joe > > > >At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >>I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update >>(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual >>(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) >>is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? >> >>Hutch > > I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to >be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for >BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 >circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference >Manual. > > Joe > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:20:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have a great multi-port (8) ISA serial card that's super > easy to configure. It uses standard 16550s mapped to standard base > addresses and uses one interrupt. You can even chain up to 4(?) more > cards to it that share the same interrupt. It has an external connector > (something like a DD-50) that then plugs into a breakout box where you > have all 8 ports as DB-25s. It's a generic board and I don't have any > info off-hand to help you find one but if anyone's interested then e-mail > me and I'll find out where you might be able to order one. I'm sure they > turn up on eBay from time to time as well. It's called the Decision Computer Group PC-COM ISA Bus 8 port RS-232/422 card. Here's some technical info: http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52585.htm http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52584.htm Here's their website apparently: http://www.qna2002.com/ Not sure how you're supposed to order one. I used to buy mine through the same company that wrote the C serial port library I used. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:21:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, lance sprung wrote: > I usually just listen in to the folks on this list, but I was curious why > there has been no mention here of the Kenbak-1 that's been on ebay all week? > I know I bid on it, but once it exceeded $5k, it got difficult to comprehend > the price. Only 40 made, if it was a rare coin or stamp, it would be worth > tens of thousands I guess. Thanks. More interesting, why did (almost) everyone miss the Kenbak-1 that sold for $2,000 on eBay only a couple months back? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pbmain at wideopenwest.com Tue Aug 2 10:34:17 2005 From: pbmain at wideopenwest.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:34:17 -0500 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question Message-ID: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Here's a new direction for that analog modem question... it's sort of getting creative in some interesting directions, but not quite what I have a system with 5 internal modems - I can't go with serial ports/external modems for this system, they must stay internal. So, I need to find a way so people can telnet to them. Essentially, I have a lan connection and a bank of analog modems - Can anyone think of a solution, no matter how crazy it is, to get me to be able to telnet from the internet and connect to these 5 systems? If I get 5 phone lines, that's not doing me any good, as I want to make it accessible over the net. So, somehow I have to get a connection to go from the net to trigger an analog modem source, which calls one of the 5 internal modems, then feeds the data back over the line and to the telnet connection. I've been researching some of the solutions people have proposed, but I'm not real familiar with some of the capabilities of these systems. With the reverse telnet concept, that would work if I could change my computer's modem pool to external serial devices (get rid of the analog). I can't do that yet.. Perhaps is there a device that acts as a remote access server, that once connected, it dials out through another port to make a connection? Or, was there a LAN device that would allow you to telnet to the device and initiate a call over an analog phone line? Pete From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Aug 2 09:36:39 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:36:39 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: JDR Microdevices has an 8-port PCI card for $128. Look for item MCT-P8S-1. I noticed that they also have a 4-port ISA card, too. That's $48 (item MCT-4S-1). Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Analog modem emulator? On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have a great multi-port (8) ISA serial card that's super > easy to configure. It uses standard 16550s mapped to standard base > addresses and uses one interrupt. You can even chain up to 4(?) more > cards to it that share the same interrupt. It has an external connector > (something like a DD-50) that then plugs into a breakout box where you > have all 8 ports as DB-25s. It's a generic board and I don't have any > info off-hand to help you find one but if anyone's interested then e-mail > me and I'll find out where you might be able to order one. I'm sure they > turn up on eBay from time to time as well. It's called the Decision Computer Group PC-COM ISA Bus 8 port RS-232/422 card. Here's some technical info: http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52585.htm http://www.thegreenhouse.us/th99/i/C-D/52584.htm Here's their website apparently: http://www.qna2002.com/ Not sure how you're supposed to order one. I used to buy mine through the same company that wrote the C serial port library I used. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:33:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508020259.j722xDd25608@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Pete Bartusek wrote: > ...but my scenario is different in that I want the connection going to the > PC to still be analog lines. So, this device would have to have some sort of > modem emulation of its own. I doubt you'll find anything to do this, not that they don't exist, but if you do it'll probably be outside your price range. Sounds like a custom solution to me. Get a Linux box with a modem and an external switch (in this case "switch" meaning a PBX of some sort). A Panasonic 606 is perfect for what you need: small, easy to program (the default programming will work), and it's a hybrid so it uses both proprietary digital sets and normal analog sets (auto-sensing). They're also abundant and probably cheap by now. In fact, I think I have one I can sell you. A Panasonic 1232 is the same thing with just more ports (12 CO trunks, 32 stations) but overkill. Plug the 4 modems of the target box into one of the 16 extensions, then plug the modem on the Linux gateway into a fifth extension. The Linux modem can then dial directly into any one of the 4 target machine modems by dialing its extension number. Then, write some software to do the conversion :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:38:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802040457.52673.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, William Maddox wrote: > Speaking of the Apple 1, I just noticed the winning > bidder is the same guy who bought that "hobby computer > in a wooden case" that was the subject of such wild > speculation a few weeks back. He also bought an NRI > 832, which I have heard claimed to predate the Kenbak > and be in fact the first computer kit ever marketed. > Does anyone know the real scoop on that? Wow, didn't see that! Didn't expect to see one of those on eBay though (duh) makes sense. If you look through old copies of Popular Electronics or Radio Electronics you'll see ads from the National Radio Institute (NRI) hawking correspondence courses on digital computers. Part of the package is the kit for the NRI 832 computer, which is what you get as part of the course. I'm not sure if it pre-dates the Kenbak-1 but it is defintely very early 1970s vintage. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:42:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802051043.28429.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, steve wrote: > I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the > first one without some qualifications(computer using > relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor etc), I think in > the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was > available from Radio Electronics. Yes. http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/berkeley/ http://www.cedmagic.com/history/simon-personal-computer.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:45:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <20050802113423.6b897b90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Get a terminal server with "reverse telnet" capability, connect modems > to the serial lines, connect the modems back-to-back to the POTS lines > of the internal modem and that's it. OK, most likely you have to do some > tricks to get a ring signal when someone connects via telnet to the > terminal server. E.g. it may be enough to use DTR from the treminal > server to initiate a ring tone generator on the POTS line between the > modems. Or get a old == cheap small analog PBX... It won't work to just plug the modems together by their phone jacks. You still need line voltage or else they won't work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:49:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Pete Bartusek wrote: > I have a system with 5 internal modems - I can't go with serial > ports/external modems for this system, they must stay internal. So, I need Ok, first of all, what is this "system"? I presume it is something you can't add an ethernet card to? > to find a way so people can telnet to them. Essentially, I have a lan > connection and a bank of analog modems - Can anyone think of a solution, no > matter how crazy it is, to get me to be able to telnet from the internet and > connect to these 5 systems? 1. Get hardware and software 2. ??? 3. Profit! > Perhaps is there a device that acts as a remote access server, that once > connected, it dials out through another port to make a connection? Or, was > there a LAN device that would allow you to telnet to the device and initiate > a call over an analog phone line? If you build it, they will come. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 09:52:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Panasonic 606 is perfect for what you need: small, easy to program (the Sorry, I meant the Panasonic 616. I just remembered there's also the 308 which is even better for your purposes as it would be smaller with only 8 stations instead of 16. The other nice thing about the Panasonic switches is that they are ready to go. They have modular phone jacks so you just power it up, plug in phones, and dial away. Extensions are programmed by default as 101, 102, 103, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 2 10:00:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:00:59 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <20050802113423.6b897b90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200508011645.j71GjKPJ004810@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200508020259.j722xDd25608@pop-2.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <20050802113423.6b897b90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <42EF8AAB.3050803@mdrconsult.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:02:33 -0400 > "Pete Bartusek" wrote: > > >>Essentially the layout would be this. I have a computer with 4 >>internal modems in it. Has to be internal, I can't do this with >>external modems/serial ports. Somehow I get it configured so that I >>can telnet from the internet to this "emulator" and it directs my >>telnet session to one of the 4 free analog lines. > > Get a terminal server with "reverse telnet" capability, connect modems > to the serial lines, connect the modems back-to-back to the POTS lines > of the internal modem and that's it. OK, most likely you have to do some > tricks to get a ring signal when someone connects via telnet to the > terminal server. E.g. it may be enough to use DTR from the treminal > server to initiate a ring tone generator on the POTS line between the > modems. Or get a old == cheap small analog PBX... I'm certain that I've done this by connecting 2 modems back-to-back, although it's been a very long time. There's an AT command to open the line without a ring signal. A Livingston Portmaster 2 or 2E is nice makes very nice terminal or console servers, have dial-in/dial-out capability, are well-documented, and very cheap. They're also a lot more common than the various DECservers. As a matter of fact, I have a 10-port 2E and a 20-port 2E for sale. Make a silly offer. Doc From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Aug 2 10:02:24 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:02:24 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: Sellam: This setup should then work if I wanted to demonstrate old BBSes and how one could dial into them using classic hardware. For example, using classic machines like the Apple II or even an IMSAI with a 212A modem or the DC Hayes board to dial into a CBBS setup hosted on a PC. This would be a great VCF demonstration, particularly if you could have a few machines from different displays "dialing-into" the BBS. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:33 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Analog modem emulator? On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Pete Bartusek wrote: > ...but my scenario is different in that I want the connection going to the > PC to still be analog lines. So, this device would have to have some sort of > modem emulation of its own. I doubt you'll find anything to do this, not that they don't exist, but if you do it'll probably be outside your price range. Sounds like a custom solution to me. Get a Linux box with a modem and an external switch (in this case "switch" meaning a PBX of some sort). A Panasonic 606 is perfect for what you need: small, easy to program (the default programming will work), and it's a hybrid so it uses both proprietary digital sets and normal analog sets (auto-sensing). They're also abundant and probably cheap by now. In fact, I think I have one I can sell you. A Panasonic 1232 is the same thing with just more ports (12 CO trunks, 32 stations) but overkill. Plug the 4 modems of the target box into one of the 16 extensions, then plug the modem on the Linux gateway into a fifth extension. The Linux modem can then dial directly into any one of the 4 target machine modems by dialing its extension number. Then, write some software to do the conversion :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 2 10:14:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:14:02 -0500 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> References: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <42EF8DBA.2000602@mdrconsult.com> Pete Bartusek wrote: > Here's a new direction for that analog modem question... it's sort of getting > creative in some interesting directions, but not quite what > Perhaps is there a device that acts as a remote access server, that once > connected, it dials out through another port to make a connection? Or, was > there a LAN device that would allow you to telnet to the device and initiate > a call over an analog phone line? From the Portmaster FAQ: http://www.portmasters.com/faq.html#dialoutip The problem remains that a direct modem-modem connection won't work unless there's local interaction at both ends to open the line. You might also wish to look at the Asterisk project: http://www.asterisk.org OpenSource PBX software for Linux systems. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 10:38:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > This setup should then work if I wanted to demonstrate old BBSes and > how one could dial into them using classic hardware. For example, using > classic machines like the Apple II or even an IMSAI with a 212A modem or the > DC Hayes board to dial into a CBBS setup hosted on a PC. This would be a > great VCF demonstration, particularly if you could have a few machines from > different displays "dialing-into" the BBS. That's a great idea. Next VCF I could run a PBX through the exhibit area and then anyone exhibiting a live computer with a modem could hook it up to the PBX and we could have people dialing each other's exhibits. Not very practical but fun. An even better idea that I've been toying around with is to do a version of Core Wars. I'd come up with a basic specification and then it would be up to each exhibitor to write an implementation on their exhibited computer. The network would be serial based so just about anyone should be able to hookup. Whoever wins would get the Grand Prize ;) If this sounds like fun to you then please send me some feedback (directly preferred). If there's enough demand then I'll put it higher on my priority list amongst the 30,000 projects I already have going on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 10:41:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <42EF8DBA.2000602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > You might also wish to look at the Asterisk project: > > http://www.asterisk.org > > OpenSource PBX software for Linux systems. Asterisk would be a great solution as well but the boards required to make it work might be more expensive than a cheap PBX. You'd need to use telco boards that could implement modem tones on their ports, which are available but pricey. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 2 11:09:10 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:09:10 -0500 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EF9AA6.7060002@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> You might also wish to look at the Asterisk project: >> >>http://www.asterisk.org >> >> OpenSource PBX software for Linux systems. > > > Asterisk would be a great solution as well but the boards required to make > it work might be more expensive than a cheap PBX. You'd need to use telco > boards that could implement modem tones on their ports, which are > available but pricey. If you google around, or just check out their mailing lists, there are some pretty cheap options. I still think you're right - a small used PBX system is probably the cheapest solution. Doc From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Aug 2 11:46:08 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:46:08 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050801192816.3e5f0724@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20050801195308.378CE3BAD9@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200508021646.j72Gk97h018735@mail.bcpl.net> On 1 Aug 2005 at 19:28, Joe R. wrote: > I think I have a copy of that issue of the HPJ. I'll see if that > picture is in it. The HP 264x terminals also used the 3M DC100 tape cartridge. Appendix D of the "2641A/2645A/2645S/N Display Station Reference Manual" (HP 02645-90005) is entitled "Tape Cartridge Rethreading" and has a full page of directions and drawings. It's available at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/02645-90005_2645ref_Oct77.pdf On 1 Aug 2005 at 15:53, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > I have added it to the page, much appreciate it. It is better, > although kinda low res. Anybody have a better scan of that image? If you want to use the drawing from the 264x manual, and you would like an image of higher resolution than the above (I believe that Al scans at 400 dpi), let me know, and I'll make one from my manual. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 2 11:47:41 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:47:41 -0700 Subject: Emulex DM01 information Message-ID: <9da9c4533ca613a2bb2219e8c438cd7f@bitsavers.org> A DM01 manual scan is up now at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/DM0151002-B_DM01tech_Apr89.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 2 11:54:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:54:01 -0700 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question Message-ID: <50f4f4df512c6618d8b17e1f42d4b466@bitsavers.org> > If you build it, they will come. Next time you watch "Field Of Dreams" listen carefully to what's said "If you build it, HE will come." Very subtle, but significant difference in the meaning wrt the plot. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 12:15:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <50f4f4df512c6618d8b17e1f42d4b466@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > If you build it, they will come. > > Next time you watch "Field Of Dreams" listen carefully to what's said > > "If you build it, HE will come." > > Very subtle, but significant difference in the meaning wrt the plot. Who cares. I hate baseball AND Kevin Costner. I can't figure out what I hate more. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Aug 2 13:02:36 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:02:36 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: Refining the BBS idea a bit, the problem with it is multiplexing. You'd need to run a modem bank (like Hayes or Multitech) into the PBX and use an n-port serial card in the host PC. The PBX I'm sure can be set for number fallover so if you keep dialing extension "101" and it's busy, it will roll to extension 102, etc. I used to have a 24-modem (2400 baud) Multitech modem bank from an old DEC installation but I got rid of it a long time ago. Just another piece of hardware I should have kept... Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Analog modem emulator? On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > This setup should then work if I wanted to demonstrate old BBSes and > how one could dial into them using classic hardware. For example, using > classic machines like the Apple II or even an IMSAI with a 212A modem or the > DC Hayes board to dial into a CBBS setup hosted on a PC. This would be a > great VCF demonstration, particularly if you could have a few machines from > different displays "dialing-into" the BBS. That's a great idea. Next VCF I could run a PBX through the exhibit area and then anyone exhibiting a live computer with a modem could hook it up to the PBX and we could have people dialing each other's exhibits. Not very practical but fun. An even better idea that I've been toying around with is to do a version of Core Wars. I'd come up with a basic specification and then it would be up to each exhibitor to write an implementation on their exhibited computer. The network would be serial based so just about anyone should be able to hookup. Whoever wins would get the Grand Prize ;) If this sounds like fun to you then please send me some feedback (directly preferred). If there's enough demand then I'll put it higher on my priority list amongst the 30,000 projects I already have going on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 2 13:09:10 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:09:10 -0400 (edt) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 05 10:15:41 am Message-ID: <200508021809.OAA16207@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > If you build it, they will come. > > > > Next time you watch "Field Of Dreams" listen carefully to what's said > > > > "If you build it, HE will come." > > > > Very subtle, but significant difference in the meaning wrt the plot. > > Who cares. I hate baseball AND Kevin Costner. I can't figure out what I > hate more. quote from "Men In Tights"... "And I can speak with a *real* british accent" ;) for analog modem over IP... I have used (with fairly good success) a modem over my Vonage line. Cheers, Bryan P.S. Slayradio.org is *LIVE* now with the Top 20 slay-rated tunes! :) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 13:19:10 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:19:10 +0200 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <20050802113423.6b897b90.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20050802201910.72a06da8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > It won't work to just plug the modems together by their phone jacks. > You still need line voltage or else they won't work. Yes. But "better" modems have a "leased line" mode where they don't need extra voltage. If this fails there is still the way with the 9 V battery, as already mentioned. With this you only need "ATA" (IIRC) to initiate a carrier handshake between the modems. Or configure the modem on the terminal server side to do "auto dial at DTR"... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 13:22:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > Refining the BBS idea a bit, the problem with it is multiplexing. You'd need > to run a modem bank (like Hayes or Multitech) into the PBX and use an n-port > serial card in the host PC. The PBX I'm sure can be set for number fallover > so if you keep dialing extension "101" and it's busy, it will roll to > extension 102, etc. The modem bank off the host is not necessary. The PBX solves the multiplexing problem. You have one modem on the gateway PC that is connected to an extension on the PBX. It can then dial any one of the other extensions which will then connect it to one of the modems on the target PC. > I used to have a 24-modem (2400 baud) Multitech modem bank from an old DEC > installation but I got rid of it a long time ago. Just another piece of > hardware I should have kept... That stuff is really common if you know where to look ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 13:25:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <200508021809.OAA16207@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > for analog modem over IP... I have used (with fairly good success) a modem > over my Vonage line. Wow, that's pretty good quality VOIP. But this still wouldn't help since the target PC in this case (apparently) can't support TCP/IP or even a network connection. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 13:26:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <20050802201910.72a06da8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:45:26 -0700 (PDT) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > It won't work to just plug the modems together by their phone jacks. > > You still need line voltage or else they won't work. > Yes. But "better" modems have a "leased line" mode where they don't need > extra voltage. If this fails there is still the way with the 9 V > battery, as already mentioned. With this you only need "ATA" (IIRC) > to initiate a carrier handshake between the modems. Or configure the > modem on the terminal server side to do "auto dial at DTR"... Still doesn't solve the multiplexing problem (which a PBX does solve). Unless you don't need multiplexing, in which case you should eat your foot for dinner. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 2 13:33:20 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:33:20 -0700 Subject: DECMATE I - Chicken or the Egg? References: <200508011700.j71H04cO004981@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: From: "CRC" > A friend came across a DECMATE I and we have been playing with the > beast, but are unable to figure out how to get a system loaded > without the necessary floppies for the RX02. It talks nicely to my > VAXStation 3540 as a VT100 (DP278A option), but it looks only like a > terminal. > > I've Googled DECMATE and am totally FAQed up with the history and > long lists of software with little in the way of description. Is > there any runes to cast or incantations to key in so that we might be > able to load in a system over the RS232? I have a working OS/8 system that can make an RX01 or RX02 floppy, if you have a "dumprest" compatible image you want to make them from. Vince From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Aug 2 13:41:15 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:41:15 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: Sellam: You're description is based on a remote telnet inbound connection where you're coming in over the internet and using the host PC and the PBX to route the call to the right one of the four modems on the computer from the original example. In this case I agree with you -- it's one inbound connection reaching one destination. I was talking about the VCF exhibit, where I believe you would still need a modem bank. If I have two Apple II's each with a modem plugged into the PBX and I "dial" extension 101 which is the host PC, won't I get a busy when the second Apple dials "101"? I think you do need a modem bank on the host PC with the fallover feature on the PBX programmed properly. The PBX is simply acting as the "phone company" for purposes of connecting the two. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Analog modem emulator? On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > Refining the BBS idea a bit, the problem with it is multiplexing. You'd need > to run a modem bank (like Hayes or Multitech) into the PBX and use an n-port > serial card in the host PC. The PBX I'm sure can be set for number fallover > so if you keep dialing extension "101" and it's busy, it will roll to > extension 102, etc. The modem bank off the host is not necessary. The PBX solves the multiplexing problem. You have one modem on the gateway PC that is connected to an extension on the PBX. It can then dial any one of the other extensions which will then connect it to one of the modems on the target PC. > I used to have a 24-modem (2400 baud) Multitech modem bank from an old DEC > installation but I got rid of it a long time ago. Just another piece of > hardware I should have kept... That stuff is really common if you know where to look ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 2 13:54:25 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:54:25 -0400 (edt) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 05 11:25:00 am Message-ID: <200508021854.OAA21908@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > for analog modem over IP... I have used (with fairly good success) a modem > > over my Vonage line. > > Wow, that's pretty good quality VOIP. But this still wouldn't help since > the target PC in this case (apparently) can't support TCP/IP or even a > network connection. I am using an external US Robotics 56K modem (NOT a win-modem) connected to the VOIP box via a standard phone line. Cheers, Bryan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 13:57:16 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:57:16 +0200 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> References: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <20050802205716.482faca9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:34:17 -0500 "Pete Bartusek" wrote: > With the reverse telnet concept, that would work if I could change my > computer's modem pool to external serial devices (get rid of the > analog). I can't do that yet.. Get a terminal server with "reverse telnet" capability that rises DTR on the serial port if someone telnets to the corresponding TCP port. [1] Get modems with "dial on DTR" function and connect them to the serial ports of the terminal server. E.g. my old US Robotics Courier can do this. Get an old analog PBX. Connect your BBS system and the modems hanging from the terminal server to it. Programm terminal server and modems, setup PBX. Done. If someone opens a telnet session to a port of the terminal server the modem "dial out" is triggered by the DTR signal. The modem dials the number stored in its NVRAM. The PBX connects the modem to a line of your BBS system. The BBS systems gets an incomming call... CONNECT! :-) [1] My terminal server does this. I use the DTR signals to control solid state relais. That way I can remote power cycle the machine thats console is connected to the corresponding serial port. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 14:05:26 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:05:26 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/2/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > I was talking about the VCF exhibit, where I believe you would still > need a modem bank. If I have two Apple II's each with a modem plugged into > the PBX and I "dial" extension 101 which is the host PC, won't I get a busy > when the second Apple dials "101"? I think you do need a modem bank on the > host PC with the fallover feature on the PBX programmed properly. The PBX is > simply acting as the "phone company" for purposes of connecting the two. The "CO emulator" sold by Black Box will do this, for limited numbers of connections. The model I have is smaller than a phone book and supports 4 phones. The lingering question I have (since I haven't powered it up in 10+ years) is if it supports two simulaneous connections, or only allows one of three extensions to call the primary. In any case, for at least a single connection, it allows two modems to talk, each thinking they are attached to the POTS network - dial tone, ring tones, ring voltage, the whole enchilada. Of course, if you want to support more than one or two lines, a small PBX is the way to go. My old COMBOX product would only be useful for point-to-point. It's as real a connection as a PBX, but only two lines. In practice, that should be enough, unless you really want to sit people down in front of a machine and have them pretend they are a BBS user and make them choose from two or three different destinations. Entertaining, but time consuming. Of course, you'll have to simulate busy signals as well ;-) [ except when Star Trek is on TV - that was always the best time to call the local BBSes - all the nerds were in front of their televisions, and they didn't have their computers in the same room back then ] -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 13:52:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:52:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 2, 5 07:45:26 am Message-ID: > It won't work to just plug the modems together by their phone jacks. You > still need line voltage or else they won't work. That depends on the modems..... I've not seen schematics for any recent modems, but all the old ones (up to 2400 bits/second) used a transformer to couple the audio, that transformer being capacitively coupled to the line. There was no DC path through that part of the circuit, therefore, so the audio transmission shouldn't depend on line voltage. If the unit uses relays for off-hook switching, etc, then there shouldn't be any problem with that part of the cirucit needing line voltage either (semiconductor switches might need the line voltage for bias). Obviously the ring detector detects ringing voltage from the line. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 13:56:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:56:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200507312026.j6VKQwd6091712@keith.ezwind.net> from "Director" at Jul 31, 5 03:17:58 pm Message-ID: > > I have seen something like that. It essentially simulates a telephone > network. You would use it to test modems, for example, or to connect > machines that had internal modems. I think I saw it being sold by Black Box. > They are not the cheapest outfit in the world. It's like buying at the local > convenience store. IIRC they were over five hundred dollars. I am surprised, but I have never seen a published schematic for such a unit, neither in a magaxine or on the web. They can't be _that_ complicated, surely? -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 14:33:52 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:33:52 +0200 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <20050802201910.72a06da8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20050802213352.1e50a9ca.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Still doesn't solve the multiplexing problem (which a PBX does solve). > Unless you don't need multiplexing, Why would you need automatic multiplexing? With the described setup you get a maping: TCP/IP port <=> modem <=> BBS port I.e. each BBS port gets a different TCP/IP port. If user A is connected to TCP/IP port 1 no other connections are accepted on that TCP/IP port. If user B wants to connect he doesn't get a connection when telneting to TCP/IP port 1. So he has to retry with TCP/IP port 2 etc. Not that nice (manual multiplexing by the end user), but it is the simplest solution. Alternative: If you use a TCP/IP capable computer with multiserial card insted of the terminal server you can write a custom application. It handles the TCP/IP to serial port mapping and moving the bits back and forth of the TCP/IP connection and serial port. It is easy to design this application in a way that it accepts multiple TCP/IP connections to the _same_ TCP/IP port. The application keeps book on what serial lines / modems / BBS ports are already in use so that it can connect a new TCP/IP connection to the first free serial line == BBS port. This way you get automatic multiplexing for the expense writing the multiplexing application yourself. > in which case you should eat your foot for dinner. Pardon? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brother_cadfael at juno.com Tue Aug 2 15:01:59 2005 From: brother_cadfael at juno.com (brother_cadfael at juno.com) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:01:59 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 Message-ID: <20050802.130200.2544.0.brother_cadfael@juno.com> Hello, Did anyone by chance have the ebay item # for the Kenbak-1? I would like to see what one looks like. Thank you, Brian Hanson From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 2 15:13:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> References: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <20050802131005.N46096@shell.lmi.net> I don't recall an explanation of WHY you want to do it, nor WHY the modems MUST be internal, etc. But it sounds like what you are looking for could be easily accomplished with another PC., and some minor programming. The added PC could have an internet connection, and a handful of modems (internal OR external). It could then connect to the internal modems on your PC. From dieymir at yahoo.es Tue Aug 2 15:18:38 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:18:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DR DOS 5.0 In-Reply-To: <200507311906.j6VJ5mWn093836@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050802201838.71660.qmail@web26407.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:51:07 -0400 > From: "B. Degnan" > Subject: Re: DR DOS 5.0 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050728184908.038f88e8 at mail.degnanco.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >Subject: DR DOS 5.0 > >Anybody knows something about its history ?? > >I have installation disks with files dated 6/1990 and also a boot > disk > with some files dated in 2/1991, I know that several bug fixing > versions > exist, but Which is the last ?? > >I remembered it when I was reading all that Windows Vista > (LongHorn) > stuff. Seems that M$ is using 'vaporware' again to distract attention > from > Intel Mac OS X much like > >they did with MS-DOS 5.0 and DR DOS 5.0. > > I have a copy of version 6. It's on 1.2MB 5 1/4 disks. If you'd > like an > eval copy, let me know. > Bill > vintagecomputer.net > Thanks a lot for your offer, but I have three copies of DR DOS 6.0 (9/91 original English & Spanish and 4/92 "Bussiness Update" for Windows 3.1) and a set of patches (3/93 for WfW 3.1). Actually I'm interested in the latest issue of DR DOS 5.0 (2/91 or later) only. Diego. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 2 15:15:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > I was talking about the VCF exhibit, where I believe you would still D'oh! Sorry. > need a modem bank. If I have two Apple II's each with a modem plugged into > the PBX and I "dial" extension 101 which is the host PC, won't I get a busy > when the second Apple dials "101"? I think you do need a modem bank on the > host PC with the fallover feature on the PBX programmed properly. The PBX is > simply acting as the "phone company" for purposes of connecting the two. In telco parlance this is what's called a "hunt group", where you have multiple destinations in a group that all have the same function where it doesn't matter which one you reach (for instance a customer support line). So you have one number assigned to the entire group, and the PBX will pick the first available extension based on some simple algorithm (hunt from top down, bottom up, least used, etc.) In the VCF exhibit, my thinking is that each exhibitor is assigned an extension, and so people on the outside (or inside) can call into a main number and then from there transfer themselves to a particular exhibitor's extension. If there's a TCP/IP to telco gateway (what we are discussing here) then the gateway PC would have a bank of modems connected into the PBX and anyone coming in on a TCP/IP "call" would be randomly assigned a physical modem, and from there they could dial into any available extension. If the extension is busy, they try another (or get routed to e-mail to leave a message ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Aug 2 15:39:47 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:39:47 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: Sellam: >>In telco parlance this is what's called a "hunt group" Yes, thanks, I couldn't remember the right word for it. One could use telnet from the outside to hit a specific port on the gateway PC (105.27.33.33:2020 for example for the main line). Each port relates to a specific path through the gateway to a classic machine or to a "random" server. The routing software on the gateway wouldn't be trivial, but wouldn't be too tough either. I'm also thinking about dial-out from an exhibitor display to a BBS in addition to a "dial-in" from the outside. Time to hit eBay and search for a Panasonic 616 :-) Sold commercially, used units go for $450. The 308 is about $300. I'm obviously looking to pay less... Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Analog modem emulator? On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cini, Richard wrote: > I was talking about the VCF exhibit, where I believe you would still D'oh! Sorry. > need a modem bank. If I have two Apple II's each with a modem plugged into > the PBX and I "dial" extension 101 which is the host PC, won't I get a busy > when the second Apple dials "101"? I think you do need a modem bank on the > host PC with the fallover feature on the PBX programmed properly. The PBX is > simply acting as the "phone company" for purposes of connecting the two. In telco parlance this is what's called a "hunt group", where you have multiple destinations in a group that all have the same function where it doesn't matter which one you reach (for instance a customer support line). So you have one number assigned to the entire group, and the PBX will pick the first available extension based on some simple algorithm (hunt from top down, bottom up, least used, etc.) In the VCF exhibit, my thinking is that each exhibitor is assigned an extension, and so people on the outside (or inside) can call into a main number and then from there transfer themselves to a particular exhibitor's extension. If there's a TCP/IP to telco gateway (what we are discussing here) then the gateway PC would have a bank of modems connected into the PBX and anyone coming in on a TCP/IP "call" would be randomly assigned a physical modem, and from there they could dial into any available extension. If the extension is busy, they try another (or get routed to e-mail to leave a message ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 16:10:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:10:25 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <200507312026.j6VKQwd6091712@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 8/2/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >...essentially simulates a telephone > > network.... sold by Black Box. > > I am surprised, but I have never seen a published schematic for such a > unit, neither in a magaxine or on the web. They can't be _that_ > complicated, surely? Having a) looked at competitors features, and b) built similar products myself, the ones for sale are not simple. Ours used a pair of SLICs (Subscriber Line ICs) just as a proper PBX or Telco switch port would use. In between a few sq in. of through-hole passives, we had an 8048-type microcontroller generating dial tones, interpreting telephone numbers, triggering ring voltages, etc. Ours, being two lines, fit in a standard Pac-Tec box that was about 6" x 6" x 2" and was *covered* in parts. SMT could have made it cheaper, but it was designed in a non-modern environment for low-volume production. We didn't make enough to fill a shopping cart. -ethan From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 16:12:19 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <20050802.130200.2544.0.brother_cadfael@juno.com> Message-ID: <20050802211219.76244.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> 5223564617 see also http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/kenbak.htm --- brother_cadfael at juno.com wrote: > Hello, > Did anyone by chance have the ebay item # for the > Kenbak-1? > I would like to see what one looks like. > Thank you, > Brian Hanson > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 16:36:25 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:36:25 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who hauled their stuff out to show. This wouldn't be so bad, except that the promised T-shirts were never delivered, and without notice to anyone. It may only be ten dollars, but it's a matter of principal. Way to show appreciation for your exhibitors by ripping us off. I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the old saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Julian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? To be clear, Hans and a few others said that of the event, and I was just trying to point out how successful it was for a first time event. Despite the 'small' number of exhibitors, we did fill up 21 tables and could have expanded that by at least another 4-5. Also, since we collected donations instead of charging admission, there were probably a dozen or two people beyond that 70. :) Pat Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge - http://www.computer-refuge.org -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan Date: Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 1:04 pm Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. >From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the VCF/Easts. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 2 16:48:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:48:00 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: <17135.59920.0.423778@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, Julian> speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite Julian> backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for Julian> admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who Julian> hauled their stuff out to show. It's perfectly common hamfest practice, and no one seems to think this is strange -- and certainly they don't think of it as an insult. Instead, it's a way to make the event more attractive to the buyers -- think of it as a small marketing fee. paul From news at computercollector.com Tue Aug 2 16:54:45 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:54:45 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508022159.j72LxuJh020070@keith.ezwind.net> >>> then not charge for admission Is that right? Patrick (in a July 31 message here) cited "head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people". -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:36 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who hauled their stuff out to show. This wouldn't be so bad, except that the promised T-shirts were never delivered, and without notice to anyone. It may only be ten dollars, but it's a matter of principal. Way to show appreciation for your exhibitors by ripping us off. I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the old saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Julian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? To be clear, Hans and a few others said that of the event, and I was just trying to point out how successful it was for a first time event. Despite the 'small' number of exhibitors, we did fill up 21 tables and could have expanded that by at least another 4-5. Also, since we collected donations instead of charging admission, there were probably a dozen or two people beyond that 70. :) Pat Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing - http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge - http://www.computer-refuge.org -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Finnegan Date: Sunday, Jul 31, 2005 1:04 pm Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? On Sunday 31 July 2005 00:16, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: Would love to hear from anyone who attended today -- how'd it go? Everyone I talked to seemed to think it went fantastically, especially for a first time event. We ended up with 12 exhibitors (including 1 that showed up at the event with no warning), and all 8 vendor and consignment tables will filled up. The estimated head count for the exhibits was about 70 (paid) people, which was a little less than expected, but still a pretty good turnout. I think we had a slightly smaller turnout (~50) for the speakers. >From what I've been told, it was a better turnout than either of the VCF/Easts. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 2 16:57:06 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:57:06 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:33:24 PDT." Message-ID: <200508022157.j72Lv7oC013279@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >A Panasonic 606 is perfect for what you need: small, easy to program (the >default programming will work), and it's a hybrid so it uses both >proprietary digital sets and normal analog sets (auto-sensing). They're >also abundant and probably cheap by now. I have one - I use it for testing modems (or I did, back in the day). I paid $500 a long long time ago - probably much cheaper now. And they were a great pbx at the time. Now days I buy $9.95 PCI FXO cards on ebay and use asterix :-) who woulda thunk that voip would really work? -brad From tradde at excite.com Tue Aug 2 16:59:30 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <20050802215930.713503DD9@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 08/02, Paul Koning < pkoning at equallogic.com > wrote: From: Paul Koning [mailto: pkoning at equallogic.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:48:00 -0400 Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes:

Julian> I actually have a few problems with how the show was run,
Julian> speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite
Julian> backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for
Julian> admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who
Julian> hauled their stuff out to show.

It's perfectly common hamfest practice, and no one seems to think this
is strange -- and certainly they don't think of it as an insult.
Instead, it's a way to make the event more attractive to the buyers --
think of it as a small marketing fee.

paul


Maybe it's due to I have never attended a hamfest, but I agree with Julian it seems odd to me to charge the people exhibiting and not for admissions. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 16:42:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:42:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 2, 5 04:10:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/2/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > >...essentially simulates a telephone > > > network.... sold by Black Box. > > > > I am surprised, but I have never seen a published schematic for such a > > unit, neither in a magaxine or on the web. They can't be _that_ > > complicated, surely? > > Having a) looked at competitors features, and b) built similar > products myself, the ones for sale are not simple. Ours used a pair > of SLICs (Subscriber Line ICs) just as a proper PBX or Telco switch You and I have different ideas of 'simple'. A copuple of SLICs and a microcontroller is not complicated, at least not compared to many other projects that I've built, and that I've seen in the magazines, over the years. One UK magazine published a design for a telephone exchange. It handled 16 lines, expandable to 32. It was a load of CMOS logic, crosspoint switch ICs, analogue stuff, etc. No microcontrollers (I think there was an EPROM to handle the mapping from the telephone number to the switches), no special SLICs It alloweed several simultaneous connections, produced dial tone, engagued tone, etc Surely a 2 line box that produces the right tones and the ringing voltage would be a lot simpler than that. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 2 17:12:57 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050802215930.713503DD9@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: > Maybe it's due to I have never attended a hamfest, but I agree with > Julian it seems odd to me to charge the people exhibiting and not for > admissions. Not odd at all. Exhibitors almost always have to pay for a spot at all kinds of shows. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 2 17:23:33 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:23:33 -0500 Subject: DECMATE I - Chicken or the Egg? In-Reply-To: References: <200508011700.j71H04cO004981@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508021723.33479.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 August 2005 23:50, CRC wrote: > A friend came across a DECMATE I and we have been playing with the > beast, but are unable to figure out how to get a system loaded > without the necessary floppies for the RX02. It talks nicely to my > VAXStation 3540 as a VT100 (DP278A option), but it looks only like a > terminal. > > I've Googled DECMATE and am totally FAQed up with the history and > long lists of software with little in the way of description. Is > there any runes to cast or incantations to key in so that we might be > able to load in a system over the RS232? > > Any help will be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, your system is completely useless. Please send to... ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 17:27:05 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:27:05 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think the line between exhibitor and vendor is being blurred here. The vendor tables were $50, and the exhibitor tables were $10, plus you were supposed to get a free T-shirt. Why not only charge those that are making money? This is what makes no sense to me...and the whole lack of a T-shirt thing for the people displaying just puts the nails in the lid of the "screwjob" coffin in my opinion. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? > Maybe it's due to I have never attended a hamfest, but I agree with > Julian it seems odd to me to charge the people exhibiting and not for > admissions. Not odd at all. Exhibitors almost always have to pay for a spot at all kinds of shows. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 2 17:37:19 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42EFF59F.7020309@internet1.net> Exhibitors or Vendors? I understand charging for a vending space, but I'd think a non-advetising exhibit should not be charged a fee since they are part of the attraction to the event. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA William Donzelli wrote: >>Maybe it's due to I have never attended a hamfest, but I agree with >>Julian it seems odd to me to charge the people exhibiting and not for >>admissions. > > > Not odd at all. Exhibitors almost always have to pay for a spot at all > kinds of shows. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 2 18:06:23 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:06:23 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508021806.23547.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 02 August 2005 16:36, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking > mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To > charge to exhibit, then not charge for admission, is a slap in the > face to the individuals who hauled their stuff out to show. This > wouldn't be so bad, except that the promised T-shirts were never > delivered, and without notice to anyone. It may only be ten dollars, T-shirts? Ask Sellam about that. I never promised T-shirts to anyone. ;) That was probably a side-effect of some website content that didn't get updated properly. There was at least one other inconsistency there which caused problems. It's really hard to run a show correctly the first time, and the one reason we "didn't charge admission"[1] was because we didn't have the manpower to enforce it. > but it's a matter of principal. Way to show appreciation for your > exhibitors by ripping us off. The amount of money it cost to run the show was nearly equal to the $10/exhibitor fee. I don't see how I ripped you off. Other than vendors and consignment sales, no person got paid for the event. In fact, people who ended up with >1 table paid *less* than what it cost. If you want, I can send you a receipt for your $10 fee and you can write it off as a tax deduction, as you were paying a Purdue student club, which amounts to a non-profit organization... Because of my oversight, we didn't even have prizes for exhibitors until Hans stepped forward and donated some (Thanks Hans!). > I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the > old saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on > me. I'm sorry but I don't think that you were screwed (except maybe for not getting a t-shirt, which wasn't done on purpose). Charging more for exhibitors than attendees is the standard in conferences. I had no manpower to enforce collecting admission fees (the only people there working were me and about 2-3 other people), and I was trying to do attendees a favor. I guess if you try to help someone out (increase attendance), someone else just feels like you were trying to screw them. :( Anyhow, Julian, if you (or anyone else in attendance) felt mistreated or wronged by me, please let me know. I really would like to make the 2nd Midwest VCF a better event than this was. I know there were some problems, and not being able to reliably collect admission may have been one of them. I would have appreciated it if you had told me during or during the cleanup or something. To respond to your other post... On Tuesday 02 August 2005 17:27, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I think the line between exhibitor and vendor is being blurred here. > The vendor tables were $50, and the exhibitor tables were $10, plus > you were supposed to get a free T-shirt. Actually, $40 vs $10, not that it makes much difference. Again, the T-shirt thing was completely accidental. I haven't heard this complaint from anyone else. > Why not only charge those that are making money? That's not how it's usually done. I was copying (as much as possible) how Sellam has done VCF (west) and VCF/Easts in the past. > This is what makes no sense to me...and the > whole lack of a T-shirt thing for the people displaying just puts the > nails in the lid of the "screwjob" coffin in my opinion. I'm sorry that you feel that way, Julian, I never intended to screw anyone over. Hell, I'd return your $10 exhibiting fee out of my own pocket if it'd make you feel better about being an exhibitor next year.[2] [1] We instead asked for a $5 donation from each attendee, most of whom paid it. As Evan noted, that's how we got the number "70 paid attendees". I know that the attendance was higher than that, as others have pointed out. [2] My pocket is not to be used as a get-rich scheme. Don't expect to get a response or refund from me if you haven't alread expressed dissatisfaction with the event. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Aug 2 18:37:39 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:37:39 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <20050802211219.76244.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015001c597bb$2bcd4ac0$6e7ba8c0@p933> And http://www.vintage-computer.com/kenbak-1.shtml and http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/ I've got a few pictures up (plus a couple on the VCF 7 page.) The Nova Scotia museum is missing 3 of the "known to exist units" but has a lot of nice photos and info. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: re:Kenbak-1 5223564617 see also http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/kenbak.htm From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Aug 2 18:40:50 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:40:50 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <20050802211219.76244.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015101c597bb$9db72070$6e7ba8c0@p933> Sorry, second link was supposed to be http://www.computerhistory.org (search the archives for Kenbak images.) ---- And http://www.vintage-computer.com/kenbak-1.shtml and http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/ I've got a few pictures up (plus a couple on the VCF 7 page.) The Nova Scotia museum is missing 3 of the "known to exist units" but has a lot of nice photos and info. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: re:Kenbak-1 5223564617 see also http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/kenbak.htm From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 2 19:49:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:49:26 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <17135.59920.0.423778@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050802194926.0ed73a38@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:48 PM 8/2/05 -0400, Paul wrote: >>>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: > > Julian> I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, > Julian> speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite > Julian> backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for > Julian> admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who > Julian> hauled their stuff out to show. > >It's perfectly common hamfest practice, and no one seems to think this >is strange No, this is very different. Sellers go to a hamfest with the express purpose of SELLING things. Therefore they're willing to invest a certain amount in "buying" a table. They don't go to exhibit so they give little care to what their table and items look like. An exhibition is very different. The exhibitors go to show their collections and they spend a lot of time and money preparing their display. If they sell anything it's just incidental, certainly their main exhibit items are not for sale! Furthermore there are FEW hamfests were the buyers don't have to pay admission. I agree with Julian, it's an unfair burdain to make the exhibitors pay, ESPECILLY when the audience is getting in for free. Joe -- and certainly they don't think of it as an insult. >Instead, it's a way to make the event more attractive to the buyers -- >think of it as a small marketing fee. > > paul > > > From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Aug 2 19:02:27 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:02:27 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - MO drives - Found word(s) cartridges in the Text body In-Reply-To: <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> References: <20050802053153.96891.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <42F00993.9070805@compsys.to> >Teo Zenios wrote: >A while back there was talk about the life of CDR's for archives, how do >Magnetic Optical Disks (MO) work for archives? > >I recently got my hands on a 1.3GB 5.25" Olypus MO Unit with about 100 >Cartridges (40+ never used, all Rewritable) and was thinking of backing up >my older files (Amiga , 68K Mac etc) to this media. The hard case seems like >it would take care of one major media killer (scratches). > > Jerome Fine replies: I have a Sony SMO S-501 drive, actually several, along with more than 200 media. I have never had a problem with the media, but I did have to replace both drives about 5 years ago on a system which was first installed in 1990 and had frequent usage. My advice would be to make at least 2 copies of the media for important files and 3 copies for critical data. But you should also have more than one drive if you expect to be able to read the files at some future date. Even a second host adapter (I assume this is a SCSI device) would not be unreasonable, especially for a PC system which is not too expensive. For a PDP-11 Qbus system, the host adapter can be around $ 500 or so, but in this case having more than one might also be essential if reading the data when it needs to be read is critical as well. I all depends on how important it is to be able to read the data in the future. In the long run, you might also consider making a copy of the MO media to a DVD which would provide an additional level of security to the backup. This might actually be very easy to perform if you use an emulator which can read the raw SCSI blocks and copy them from / to a file on a hard drive which can then easily be copied from / to the DVD for backup. I do this now all the time with files which were originally on the MO media, the MO media itself being a backup of files which were on an ESDI hard drive on the PDP-11. Originally, the MO media was used as the backup to the ESDI hard drive and was able to re-create the hard drive. On a PC, I created a file the size of the ESDI hard drive (about 600 MBytes) and copied the MO media contents to the file on the PC. After about 5 years when I acquired access to a DVD burner, it was natural to also backup those files on the hard drive to a DVD. Since I no longer do much actual work on the real PDP-11, work is now mostly on the PC (where I run RT-11 under an emulator) and files have a backup on a DVD. BUT, if I even need a large volume of data transferred back to the PDP-11, the MO media will be used to perform the transfer - another invaluable use for the MO media. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 2 19:19:40 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:19:40 -0700 Subject: EF-111A capsule for sale... Message-ID: <42F00D9C.2000201@deltasoft.com> Ok all you 'vark fans, you can't pass this one up! http://www.simpits.org/~geneb/ef111/ef111.html I don't own it (unfortunately), but if you'll email me off-list I'll put you in contact with the owner. The cockpit has been ejected and as you can see is in remarkably good shape. The owner has also made a preliminary identification so whoever ends up with it can get the history and redacted accident reports from the USAF. (No he can't ship it to Australia. Sorry Rod! :) ) g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 2 19:35:43 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:35:43 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050802194926.0ed73a38@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <17135.59920.0.423778@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050802201126.04c80870@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: >At 05:48 PM 8/2/05 -0400, Paul wrote: > >>>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: > > > > Julian> I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, > > Julian> speaking mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite > > Julian> backwards. To charge to exhibit, then not charge for > > Julian> admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who > > Julian> hauled their stuff out to show. > > > >It's perfectly common hamfest practice, and no one seems to think this > >is strange > > No, this is very different. I beg to differ... see below: > Sellers go to a hamfest with the express >purpose of SELLING things. Therefore they're willing to invest a certain >amount in "buying" a table. They don't go to exhibit so they give little >care to what their table and items look like. An exhibition is very >different. The exhibitors go to show their collections and they spend a lot >of time and money preparing their display. > If they sell anything it's just >incidental, certainly their main exhibit items are not for sale! City: Dayton, OH. Location: Hara Arena. Time: Mid-May. Event: The largest hamfest on this here planet. The largest, nicest, and I'd wager *costliest* booths didn't sell a thing. Both Icom booths (yea, 2!), the Kenwood, Yaesu and Alinco booths had absolutely nothing for sale. They were exhibitors and were there solely to show off their equipment. I'd bet that they had to pay to get their spaces... and a pretty penny, too! The booths that were selling their wares to offset the cost of the show were mainly ramshackle quickie jobs there to "do the best they can without increasing their cost margins." I saw zero booths that were there solely for the hobby with absolutely no pecuniary interests whatsoever. Now: City: Burlington, MA. Location: Sun Campus. Time: Mid-July, 2004. Event: VCFEast, Version 2. [[ No offen[sc]e meant to any of the exhibitors at the show... ]] At that event, many of the nicest displays (that I saw, anyway) were the ones that were there primarily to sell their wares. They are the ones who put more effort into a "professional, polished" appearance. The less polished exhibits were the ones which (IMHO) expressed to me the thought of "Dude! Check out my kewl stuff!" a.k.a. booths with zero pecuniary interests. Again, no offen[cs]e is meant by this - I applaud all the exhibitors at VCFEast (and also VCFMW, which I was unforch unable to attend due to last minute familial concerns) but whether or not to charge a) exhibitors and b) spectators is solely up to the discretion of the person(s) putting on the show. >Furthermore there are FEW hamfests were the buyers don't have to pay >admission. I agree with Julian, it's an unfair burdain to make the >exhibitors pay, ESPECILLY when the audience is getting in for free. The audience didn't get in for free, from the sounds of it. To me it sounds as if it were more like "if for whatever reason you didn't pay we won't hunt you down and break your kneecaps." Wasn't it said that 70ish people paid, and a couple dozen didn't? That would put it around 75% of the people *did* pay to get in. This is speculation, but this could have been due to a lack of volunteers for the show to man the door at all times. =-=-=-=-= Hopefully this row blows over very soon, and I hope that it does not discourage those in power from putting on a VCFMW 2.0... for I am already planning on going if it happens, and will volunteer to help out if it does. I'll even pay to get in, even if I'm working. Dudez & Dudettez... It's all for the fun of it anyway! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 19:44:38 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:44:38 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508021806.23547.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: That's a fair and honest explanation and I appreciate that. However, there still is an issue of charging the people creating the draw for the event and giving them absolutely nothing - i.e. by exhibiting, we have money to lose and nothing to gain. That seems screwy to me. To be quite honest, I think the entire financial load should have been put on the vendors' shoulders. THEY are the ones gaining something from this, not the exhibitors. My other suggestion is, and this is on another subject, you need to have a winner in each category, not 2nd/3rd/4th place, because you're comparing apples to oranges here. All of that being said, I will have to see how and when the next VCF is organized in order to decide if I will go again next year. I had a fairly good time though, thanks for that. Julian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? On Tuesday 02 August 2005 16:36, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking > mainly as an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To > charge to exhibit, then not charge for admission, is a slap in the > face to the individuals who hauled their stuff out to show. This > wouldn't be so bad, except that the promised T-shirts were never > delivered, and without notice to anyone. It may only be ten dollars, T-shirts? Ask Sellam about that. I never promised T-shirts to anyone. ;) That was probably a side-effect of some website content that didn't get updated properly. There was at least one other inconsistency there which caused problems. It's really hard to run a show correctly the first time, and the one reason we "didn't charge admission"[1] was because we didn't have the manpower to enforce it. > but it's a matter of principal. Way to show appreciation for your > exhibitors by ripping us off. The amount of money it cost to run the show was nearly equal to the $10/exhibitor fee. I don't see how I ripped you off. Other than vendors and consignment sales, no person got paid for the event. In fact, people who ended up with >1 table paid *less* than what it cost. If you want, I can send you a receipt for your $10 fee and you can write it off as a tax deduction, as you were paying a Purdue student club, which amounts to a non-profit organization... Because of my oversight, we didn't even have prizes for exhibitors until Hans stepped forward and donated some (Thanks Hans!). > I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the > old saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on > me. I'm sorry but I don't think that you were screwed (except maybe for not getting a t-shirt, which wasn't done on purpose). Charging more for exhibitors than attendees is the standard in conferences. I had no manpower to enforce collecting admission fees (the only people there working were me and about 2-3 other people), and I was trying to do attendees a favor. I guess if you try to help someone out (increase attendance), someone else just feels like you were trying to screw them. :( Anyhow, Julian, if you (or anyone else in attendance) felt mistreated or wronged by me, please let me know. I really would like to make the 2nd Midwest VCF a better event than this was. I know there were some problems, and not being able to reliably collect admission may have been one of them. I would have appreciated it if you had told me during or during the cleanup or something. To respond to your other post... On Tuesday 02 August 2005 17:27, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I think the line between exhibitor and vendor is being blurred here. > The vendor tables were $50, and the exhibitor tables were $10, plus > you were supposed to get a free T-shirt. Actually, $40 vs $10, not that it makes much difference. Again, the T-shirt thing was completely accidental. I haven't heard this complaint from anyone else. > Why not only charge those that are making money? That's not how it's usually done. I was copying (as much as possible) how Sellam has done VCF (west) and VCF/Easts in the past. > This is what makes no sense to me...and the > whole lack of a T-shirt thing for the people displaying just puts the > nails in the lid of the "screwjob" coffin in my opinion. I'm sorry that you feel that way, Julian, I never intended to screw anyone over. Hell, I'd return your $10 exhibiting fee out of my own pocket if it'd make you feel better about being an exhibitor next year.[2] [1] We instead asked for a $5 donation from each attendee, most of whom paid it. As Evan noted, that's how we got the number "70 paid attendees". I know that the attendance was higher than that, as others have pointed out. [2] My pocket is not to be used as a get-rich scheme. Don't expect to get a response or refund from me if you haven't alread expressed dissatisfaction with the event. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 2 19:49:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC Plato terminal Message-ID: <20050802174622.E24772@fiche.wps.com> Apex Electronics (surplus) in Sun Valley has at least one CDC Plato terminal out in the junk/scrap area. It's a ruin, though likely complete. CRT is pushed back in the case, you can see the touch screen junk. Rain and sun soaked. It's out near all the other historic terminals, all ruined (Beehives, DEC stuff, all the old brand names) in a heap with scrap and dirt and rain. Too bad! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 2 19:58:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:58:23 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: <200508021806.23547.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050802195127.052d91c8@mail> At 07:44 PM 8/2/2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: >That's a fair and honest explanation and I appreciate that. However, there >still is an issue of charging the people creating the draw for the event and >giving them absolutely nothing - i.e. by exhibiting, we have money to lose >and nothing to gain. That seems screwy to me. To be quite honest, I think >the entire financial load should have been put on the vendors' shoulders. >THEY are the ones gaining something from this, not the exhibitors. It's up to exhibitors to decide if they like those rules. If they don't feel they're getting value from it for the price, they won't come. It's not all about getting a free t-shirt, is it? It's about the pride. The bragging rights. The delightful show-off-i-ness of something geeky. Rubbing elbows with friends. What's the big deal? $50? That's not even dinner for two at many places. $10? That's not even a cheeseburger at many places. What's your time worth? More significantly, what's someone else's time worth to work on all the details of the show? Do you have any idea how much convention space costs at a bigger show? You'll pay twice that for the right to put a potted plant in your booth. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 2 20:55:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:55:19 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90412260956765ecc63@mail.gmail.com> References: <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Glen, I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 2 20:17:57 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First off, don't be such a cheapskate. IT IS ONLY TEN BUCKS fer cryin out loud. > That's a fair and honest explanation and I appreciate that. However, there > still is an issue of charging the people creating the draw for the event and > giving them absolutely nothing - i.e. by exhibiting, we have money to lose > and nothing to gain. That seems screwy to me. To be quite honest, I think > the entire financial load should have been put on the vendors' shoulders. > THEY are the ones gaining something from this, not the exhibitors. Exhibitors get something from a booth, even if nothing is for sale. Exposure. Exposure brings leads, and leads bring in more toys for the exhibitor. Some collectors go to shows and exhibit for only this reason. Ten bucks, or twenty, or a hundred, depending on the show, is cheap if just one good lead comes up. At most hamfests these days, I make more money on average from leads I pick up by having a table than the crap I sell at it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 20:26:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:26:31 -0500 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200508020525.j725PYvn010443@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20050802051043.28429.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> <200508020525.j725PYvn010443@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050802202631.1a715059.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:19:52 -0400 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > Regarding the "first" PC specifically, Doug Salot explains it quite > well: http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:11 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay > > I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the first one without > some qualifications(computer using relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor > etc), I think in the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was > available from Radio Electronics. > > For microprocessor based computers the original manufacturer always > made the first computers based on their processor (so if you assume > the 4004 was the first microprocessor then Intel Intellec or its > single board cousin Sim-4 could be considered the first microprocessor > based computers). > Well, Intel didn't originally really intend the 4004 to be the basis of a general purpose programmable computer. I suppose their early development hardware can be considered a 'personal computer' kinda sorta. Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect development hardware? I have an assortment of 'development systems' all the way from the little cheap 'evaluation kit' boards to my MDS system with 8051 hardware ICE. (I also have the Intel 'bubble memory development kit' which includes bubble memory on an ISA card, docs and 'sample' drivers to make it a small DOS non-volatile memory, which is probably one of the more rare Intel 'Development Kits') I grab up emulators and what-not where I can get them, like I got another 68HC11 emulator and a 68HC16 at the last IUPUI auction for five bucks each (complete in-the-box with everything). From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 2 20:29:48 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:29:48 -0400 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Joe R. wrote: > Glen, > > I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. > > Joe > > > From lsprung at optonline.net Tue Aug 2 20:33:17 2005 From: lsprung at optonline.net (lance sprung) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:33:17 -0400 Subject: NRI 832 In-Reply-To: <200508021501.j72F0t7N018087@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have an NRI 832. I'll check the box and see if it contains any literature. By the way, I am interested in learning how folks on this list store their vintage documentation and display their collections. Do you keep the documents with the machines, or in a separate more "climate controlled" area or in a conservation storage box, etc. I currently have all my documentation stored with my machines, but I am considering placing it into a more "friendly" environment, such as acid free envelopes or conservation boxes. Any thoughts? Also, do you keep your machines on display or locked away in a closet? In addition to early computers and antiques that calculate, I also collect early video games and handhelds. I like to display those, but frequently find my kids and their friends "exploring" the functionality of my display equipment. Thanks Subject: NRI 832 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20050802053153.96891.qmail at web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Does anyone have a copy of the NRI 832 documentation? It was sold as part of a correspondence course, and was presumably quite well documented by the course materials. --Bill > > Worked pretty good for me too. I've got one in a IIgs. If you read the > forums however, he does warn that some CF cards are not compatible w/ > the thing. I had good luck w/ some little 128Mb SanDisk CF cards. I believe that's past history. The developer has since diagnosed and corrected a timing issue (EPLD and wiring mods required) and it should work with any CF card. ************************************* From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 2 20:35:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:35:37 -0500 Subject: Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <20050802211219.76244.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050802.130200.2544.0.brother_cadfael@juno.com> <20050802211219.76244.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050802203537.24c0ee9b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:12:19 -0700 (PDT) steve wrote: > 5223564617 > > see also > > http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/kenbak.htm > Seems a little disappointing. Why do they say "Please click on the machine you want to explore. Every Kenbak is different, so make sure you look at all of them" and then only provide front and back view photos of each? Nothing at ALL about the internals?? Not even a close enough view to see what the buttons are labeled?? From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Aug 2 20:40:32 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:40:32 -0700 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <200508022231.j72MVM2B023474@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c597cc$5f3a5c70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I have been preparing my exhibit for this November's VFC 8.0 in California since last November. It will probably cost me a thousand dollars to show my Southwest Technical Products stuff. I won't notice a $10 fee. The first SWTPC. 6800 computer was introduced 30 years ago in November 1975. Today I got the loan of an Ultrasonic Sniffer, the first kit that Daniel Meyer (founder of SWTPC) sold in 1963. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Mar1963/PE_Mar1963.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 2 20:43:29 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:43:29 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that I have archived with it on my classic collection page: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Look under "Disks/Software images" near the bottom of the page. Here's the images I've posted today: IMD 130k Compupro CP/M 2.2 for Disk1A IMD 330k Compupro CP/M 86 for Disk1A IMD 305k Cromemco Cromix 11.26 (8") IMD 300k Cromemco CDOS 2.58 (8" amd 5.25") IMD 190k Cromemco CP/M for 16FDC (8") IMD 995k Dy4 Orion-V System Disks IMD 425k IMS TurboDOS 1.31 IMD 48k Nabu 1100 CP/M (8") IMD 425k NEC APC System Disks (Demo & CP/M-86) IMD 265k NEC NS5200 MS-DOS 2.11 IMD 210k TRS-80 Model II TRSDOS & CP/M IMD 68k Xerox 820-II CP/M I'll have a number of the existing TeleDisk 5.25" images redone under ImageDisk posted within the next few days. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 21:13:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:13:35 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On 8/2/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that > I have archived with it on my classic collection page: > > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > Look under "Disks/Software images" near the bottom of the page. Nice. Any chance you have some RX01 disks to try? They are SSSD, unlike the hybrid-density RX02 format. I have a Tandon TM848 in a Dataram Qbus chassis that would look great attached to a PC. I only have a couple of S100 boxes, and CP/M isn't really my thing, but I have lots of RX01-based machines (and disks I could archive). Looks like you've been doing a great job on an open-source tool we can all use. Teledisk has been around for a while, but it's been time for a new tool for a long time. -ethan From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 21:16:23 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <20050802203537.24c0ee9b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050803021623.48637.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Someone mentioned that the guy sells a Kenbak CD, I suppose all the good stuff is in the CD --- Scott Stevens wrote: > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:12:19 -0700 (PDT) > steve wrote: > > > 5223564617 > > > > see also > > > > http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/kenbak.htm > > > > Seems a little disappointing. Why do they say > "Please click on the > machine you want to explore. Every Kenbak is > different, so make sure you > look at all of them" and then only provide front > and back view photos > of each? Nothing at ALL about the internals?? Not > even a close enough > view to see what the buttons are labeled?? > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 2 21:32:28 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:32:28 -0700 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> References: <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> Message-ID: Chad Fernandez wrote: >Joe R. wrote: >>Glen, >> >> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. >> >> Joe >Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) I don't know, but the downside is that he seems to want payment first :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 2 21:45:48 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:45:48 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive question Message-ID: <42F02FDC.6010806@mdrconsult.com> I have one, and the screen gives me a headache. It has the 9-pin video connector up front - is that just "regular" RGB? Such that a straight 9-9-pin video cable and my trusty Commodore 1084 will give me external video? Doc From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 2 22:06:48 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:06:48 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 21:13 02/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On 8/2/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that >> I have archived with it on my classic collection page: >> >> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html >> >> Look under "Disks/Software images" near the bottom of the page. > >Nice. Any chance you have some RX01 disks to try? They are SSSD, >unlike the hybrid-density RX02 format. I have a Tandon TM848 in a >Dataram Qbus chassis that would look great attached to a PC. I only >have a couple of S100 boxes, and CP/M isn't really my thing, but I >have lots of RX01-based machines (and disks I could archive). Sorry, I don't have any DEC 8" material to try. The only DEC disks I have are VT-180 and Rainbow (RX50) - both of which backup and restore with no problems - but they are 5.25" format - almost but not quite completely unlike what you are asking about. I've done most of the 8" system masters that I have here, and so far I have not encountered an 8" disk that I can't read or recreate - this includes a number of mixed FM/MFM disks. I'm using a QUME QUMETRAK 242 attached with the adapter cable described in my help screens. As long as the format can be read and written by the PC controller (which does have some limitations), it should (may) work - please let me know. One weakness - the program currently cannot handle disks which have different sector sizes within the same track ... so far I have encountered only one disk type which *MAY* do this, BMC if800 - TeleDisk reports that the sector size changes within the track ... however I have never been able to get TeleDisk to restore a workable disk, so I am not convinced that it handles it either - it also reports sectors missing and "no data" in sectors, as well as really odd sector numbers - I have a feeling that it is an incompatible format and it is getting "garbage". Still, it's an option I could provide if there proves to be a need. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 2 22:42:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that > >> I have archived with it on my classic collection page: > >> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Q: are you going to continue to expand the collection of images, and perhaps take over where Don Maslin left off? If so, read through to the end! > One weakness - the program currently cannot handle disks which have different > sector sizes within the same track ... so far I have encountered only one disk > type which *MAY* do this, BMC if800 - TeleDisk reports that the sector size > changes within the track ... however I have never been able to get TeleDisk to > restore a workable disk, so I am not convinced that it handles it either - it > also reports sectors missing and "no data" in sectors, as well as really odd > sector numbers - I have a feeling that it is an incompatible format and it is > getting "garbage". Still, it's an option I could provide if there proves to be > a need. IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. There is apparently at least one BMC if800 format that can be done with 765. I had some difficulties with "automatic format recognition", particularly from used reformatted disks. I wasted some time when somebody sent me single sided disks that had been formatted over PC 360K disks, which hadn't removed the old content on the second side, and with HP 3.5" diskettes that only rewrote the first 77 tracks, etc. Because I was only dealing with file transfer, I never bothered to even list which of the sample format diskettes that I have are system disks. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html Would you like me to send you some sample diskettes to look through? -- (Grumpy Ol' Fred) Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 2 22:54:48 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 22:54:48 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42F04008.3010109@pacbell.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>>>I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that ... > Q: are you going to continue to expand the collection of images, > and perhaps take over where Don Maslin left off? > If so, read through to the end! ... Speaking of which, Don sent me a teledisk image for a kaypro II (no doubt one of the most frequently requested boot disk images), and I know he sent a number of others on this list teledisk disk images. Does anybody want to volunteer to receive all the teledisk images that members on this list received over the years (along with any other notes that might help in indentifying the disk contents and caveats) so that we can at least recover a small part of what Don had collected? I'm all behind Dave developing a new and open disk archiving program, but there is no need to lose those teledisk images. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Aug 2 23:28:41 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:28:41 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> <3.0.6.16.20050802194926.0ed73a38@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004801c597e3$d4ee8920$0100a8c0@screamer> "What we have here, is a failure to communicate." First off, not everyone has the same ideas of just what a VCF event actually ~is~. It is not an exhibition show like a classic car show. It is not a 'hamfest' like event either. It seems to fall somewhere inbetween, and I think the 'west-coast mindset' that originated the events has not always been well understood in other areas. I think future VCF events might want to look beyond emulating past events, and evolve. Either its a hamfest for blinkinlights, and it should drop any pretenses of awards, perks and judging, or it needs to become a little more formal. And if these shows are public exhibitions of the machines we collect, we need to communicate the existance of the show to that public. Thats not happening too well for the east coast events. In any case communications issues are common and unaviodable. They need to be both prevented and expected. But if people are going to move these large and valuable machines around, they need to know the power, receiving and unloading arangements well in advance. If perks are offered, they should be delivered. If awards are given, it should be clearly stated (in advance) how this is implemented, and if the process is formal (consistant) or random. There should not be any supprizes over how the fee arangements work after the show. All this should be (and probably is) written down and available on-line. When a problem does come up, work to fix it, not defend it. Rather than refund his money, why not get a sharpie and just make him a shirt? Geez. On the other hand... If you went to a VCF event and had a bad time, there are only a few possibilities that come to mind: 1. You had incorrect expecations about the nature of the events. 2. You borrowed Jay's trailer and had your prize mainframe system fall off the back of the flaming trailer and get crushed under a herd of steamrollers following you to the show. 3. You had no intention of enjoying the show. On the other, other hand... I'll attend VCF events, perhaps even travel to see a west coast show, but I'm not about to pack up and haul large systems to events like the last two I've done. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Aug 2 23:34:00 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:34:00 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <17135.59920.0.423778@gargle.gargle.HOWL><3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050802201126.04c80870@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <004c01c597e4$92d1ae40$0100a8c0@screamer> > Dudez & Dudettez... It's all for the fun of it anyway! I'm not sure this approach works as well in all areas. These are in fact rare and valuable machines. The value of these machines is clearly rising. Collecting these machines will evolve, and many people are serious collectors already. I see no reason VCF events should not also evolve. From technobug at comcast.net Wed Aug 3 00:58:11 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:58:11 -0700 Subject: DECMATE I - Chicken or the Egg? In-Reply-To: <200508022231.j72MVM29023474@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508022231.j72MVM29023474@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <75F7A2F9-6D50-4D2D-BA02-370B66BE807D@comcast.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:23:33 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: [...] >> Any help will be greatly appreciated. >> > > Unfortunately, your system is completely useless. > > Please send to... ;) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > My friend says that you are welcome to the beast. However, you must also take its power conditioner (see it's the 20kW model) and insists on shipping FedEx Custom Critical Freight. Please send your bank account info ((:-P CRC From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Wed Aug 3 01:02:06 2005 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:02:06 -0400 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> (Pete Bartusek's message of "Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:34:17 -0500") References: <20050802142704.M68422@wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <0qzmrzblsx.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> as folks have stated, you'll need analog modems to talk to your analog modems, and you'll probably want a phone switch (PBX) to go between. I'm assuming that you have an existing box that does something you want, say an old BBS system, and over which you do not have full hardware and software control. I BBS Box w/internal modems | II |(x5 phone cord) | III phone switch (PBX) | IV |(x5 phone cord) | V modems (x5) | VI |(x5 serial cable) | VII terminal server | VIII |(ethernet) > Perhaps is there a device that acts as a remote access server, that once > connected, it dials out through another port to make a connection? Or, was > there a LAN device that would allow you to telnet to the device and initiate > a call over an analog phone line? I am fairly certain that some terminal servers can do this out of the box. If not, it would not be difficult to make a linux box to do this and occupy the "terminal server" slot (VII) in the above diagram. Some terminal servers, or the "terminal server" linux box, can make use of internal modems, which might make for a neater installation, because you would have V, VI, and VII in one box. As someone mentioned, newer modem bank/terminal servers used by ISPs and others with large dialin (or dialout) pools are all-digital units in which the modems themselves are software and DSPs and the units attach to the phone system via a T-1 or other high-capacity digital phone circuit; in the above diagram, that would mean that V, VI, and VII are one (multi-thousand dollar) box, and IV is a T-1 interconnect (a pair of T-1 CSU/DSU's crossover cabled to each other) or similar instead of a bunch of serial cables. If you have just the right modems and software on the system involved, you could eliminate the PBX. Some modems have direct-wire capability for bare copper wires, plus Tony Duell's post stated that some modems do not need the voltage provided by the phone switch in order to function properly. As many folks have pointed out, if you can alter the hardware picture, you can eliminate more boxes. Keep in mind that if your "BBS Box" is standard PC hardware, modem cards could be removed and replaced by serial cards one at a time. If you can't alter the software on the "BBS Box" and it is expecting modem feedback, you can probably rig the terminal server to issue whatever the sw needs as part of the connect script ("RING RING CONNECTED"). As people have mentioned, many companies have made various test boxes which might be thought of as PBX's with just one or two lines. A one-box solution is certainly technically feasible, but I've never seen one; I expect there's never been much market for one. Old PBX's, terminal servers, and modem banks can all be cheap to free. Usually the bigger and heavier, the cheaper they are :) --akb From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 3 01:05:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Julian and anyone else concerned. I'm sorry you didn't experience the full enjoyment that the VCF "experience" is supposed to be. It's not a professionally managed event in the sense that there is a staff of people handling every aspect of the event. In this case, there were two people, Pat and me, handling the coordination, scheduling, etc. In Pat's case, he had work and a lot of the inevtiable personal stress going on throughout the planning of the event. Me, I have 30,000 projects going on at any one time, so my attention is always divided. Between the two of us, I think we put on a great event that, from the many comments I have read, many people enjoyed. I'll attempt to address each of your issues. On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: > That's a fair and honest explanation and I appreciate that. However, there > still is an issue of charging the people creating the draw for the event and > giving them absolutely nothing - i.e. by exhibiting, we have money to lose > and nothing to gain. That seems screwy to me. To be quite honest, I think > the entire financial load should have been put on the vendors' shoulders. > THEY are the ones gaining something from this, not the exhibitors. With an event of this kind, there are hard costs that need to be paid. There's the cost of the venue itself, there's the cost of advertising, the cost of the time of the people supporting the event, etc. The biggest cost by far is the venue. Exhibitors and vendors are charged a fee commensurate with the cost of supporting their presence. Since vendors will (theoretically) be making money at the event, it makes sense to charge them more. Exhibitors are charged the minimum cost of the time it takes to manage them as well as the defrayed cost of the venue (i.e. the space they will take). In exchange, we try to offer enticements beyond just the pleasure of exhibiting your prized computers and interacting with attendees. In this case, the event is new and this is the first time Pat organized it. The awards aspect was not planned or executed in an ideal manner, and for this *I* will take responsibility for not properly instructing Pat. The award ribbons were not available at the event but I will send out the ribbons to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place exhibitors as promised. In all fairness, the bit about the t-shirt was missed by both Patrick and myself. It was default text that gets automatically inserted when a new VCF event website is created. Since we did not have the budget to offer t-shirts for this event, it should have been edited out but was not. Since it was there it is only fair that those who were expecting a t-shirt should get one. I have a reasonable stock of VCF t-shirts from prior events as well as the popular "Geek" and "Nerd" VCF shirts. If any VCF Midwest exhibitors who were expecting a t-shirt still want one then please e-mail me your address and a preferred size and style and I will send you a t-shirt. It's only fair. > My other suggestion is, and this is on another subject, you need to have a > winner in each category, not 2nd/3rd/4th place, because you're comparing > apples to oranges here. This is another aspect that got over-looked. In reality, the exhibit category should not have been a factor in this exhibition at all. It only works when there are 20+ exhibits as then there is a good distribution of exhibits per category. Again, that is an oversight on my part. The VCF website has certain default features and I have to go out of my way to customize it for each event. The other 30,000 projects vying for my time distracted me from editing out the part of the form that instructs the exhibitor to select a category for their exhibit. As was explained in the exhibitor rules, the exhibits were to be judged on a straight attendee vote, and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place exhibitors are to receive much deserved award ribbons. > All of that being said, I will have to see how and when the next VCF is > organized in order to decide if I will go again next year. We learn from every event and it always comes back better than before. I think anyone who has attended any two VCF events can attest to this. > I had a fairly good time though, thanks for that. I'm glad to hear that overall you had a good time and I can give you my personal guarantee that the next event will be even more fun than this one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 3 01:12:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <004801c597e3$d4ee8920$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > I think future VCF events might want to look beyond emulating past events, > and evolve. Hi Bob. Thanks for your comments. The VCF does evolve every year. It's gone from an admittedly rinky-dink get together from VCF 1.0 in 1997 held at the local county fairgrounds to the mostly smooth and slick event that is now held yearly at the Computer History Museum, as well as the companion events held worldwide throughout the year. I am always trying to come up with new ways to entertain people and make the show fun and fresh for visitors, exhibitors and attendees alike. The reality is that this is a low budget event with a relatively small fan base. If I had the budget I'd hand out a bottle of wine and a personal escort to every attendee, but it is what it is and I do the best I can with the pathetic budget on which it is run. > But if people are going to move these large and valuable machines > around, they need to know the power, receiving and unloading arangements > well in advance. If perks are offered, they should be delivered. If > awards are given, it should be clearly stated (in advance) how this is > implemented, and if the process is formal (consistant) or random. I always make sure that we deliver what is promised and will continue to do so. And I'll also make sure we improve communications so that everyone's expectations are met or, ideally, exceeded. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 01:23:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:55 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/2/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a professional musician). I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 3 04:23:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:23:41 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: References: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42F08D1D.nail27J11TALR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Any chance you have some RX01 disks to try? They are SSSD [...] They're just perfectly standard IBM 3740-format SSSD floppies. If the PC-clone used has a FDC that does single density, what could possibly be a problem? Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 04:26:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:26:37 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1123061197.27540.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 21:43 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk Dave, Do you rely on being able to get the raw data stream from the floppy controller and decode in software? Or are you letting the FDC handle that? Reason I ask is that I just had a look under Linux and it's possible (at least with 2.6 kernels - no idea about earlier) to setup the FDC from user-land via the fd floppy device. In other words, a Linux port might be possible (for someone to do! :) assuming you're not doing anything 'odd' with the FDC... cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 04:57:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:57:58 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803095757.MYPG11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Fred, >Q: are you going to continue to expand the collection of images, >and perhaps take over where Don Maslin left off? >If so, read through to the end! I am actively attempting to archive all of the system disks in my collection. My primary purpose is to preserve them so that I will not lose the data should the physical media go bad - however I see no reason not to make them available should other people need these disks. If others want to contribute images to the archive, I will certainly welcome them - or if someone else wants to set up a repository of images, you are welcome to take the ones that I have done. >> One weakness - the program currently cannot handle disks which have different >> sector sizes within the same track ... so far I have encountered only one disk >> type which *MAY* do this, BMC if800 - TeleDisk reports that the sector size >> changes within the track ... however I have never been able to get TeleDisk to >> restore a workable disk, so I am not convinced that it handles it either - it >> also reports sectors missing and "no data" in sectors, as well as really odd >> sector numbers - I have a feeling that it is an incompatible format and it is >> getting "garbage". Still, it's an option I could provide if there proves to be >> a need. > >IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. > >There is apparently at least one BMC if800 format that can be done with >765. I looked into this a bit more after posting last night, and it looks like the 765 cannot do mixed sector sizes ... Although you do feed it the sector size for each sector, it also requires the sector size as one of the initial command parameters - I'm guessing the initial parm sets the actual sector size formatted, and the DMA value simply controls what gets written to the ID fields :-( >I had some difficulties with "automatic format recognition", particularly >from used reformatted disks. I wasted some time when somebody sent me >single sided disks that had been formatted over PC 360K disks, which >hadn't removed the old content on the second side, and with HP 3.5" >diskettes that only rewrote the first 77 tracks, etc. I've run into these issues as well - ImageDisk will analyze the disk for you if you don't know the format, however it also allows you to manually set many of the parameters. For example, when I know that a system is single-sided, I usually tell ImageDisk to only do one side. >Because I was only dealing with file transfer, I never bothered to even >list which of the sample format diskettes that I have are system disks. >http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html > >Would you like me to send you some sample diskettes to look through? Thanks - I'll may ask for some, but at this point, I believe most of the incompatibilities I am encountering are due to limitations of the 765. Once we have a bit more experience and information with ImageDisk, I may take you up on the offer for some specific formats. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 04:58:03 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:58:03 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803095802.MYPX11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. > >Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a >professional musician). > >I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered >the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. Unfortunately it's looking like mixed sector sizes within one track are not within the capabilities of the 765 to write - although I could probably READ them OK (and with a documented image file format, you would at least have access to the data so you could try to find some other way to recreate the disks if you had to). See my next message. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 04:58:06 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:58:06 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I'm really getting fed-up with the limitations of the PC floppy disk controller. Here's another idea I've had on the back-burner for quite some time, I've mentioned to a couple of you during private correspondance, but here it is for open discussion. The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and would properly interface to all drive types. Firmware would be developed to provide read/format/write/analysis capabilities around the more powerful WD chip. Images would be transferred via the serial connection to and from the PC. This should allow us to archive soft-sector formats that are not compatible with the PC, and also to perform these functions under virtually any PC environment. I just haven't had time to design and build the board ... anyone else interested in working together on such a project? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 05:09:57 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 06:09:57 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803100956.NCDM11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Jules, >Do you rely on being able to get the raw data stream from the floppy >controller and decode in software? Or are you letting the FDC handle >that? > >Reason I ask is that I just had a look under Linux and it's possible (at >least with 2.6 kernels - no idea about earlier) to setup the FDC from >user-land via the fd floppy device. In other words, a Linux port might >be possible (for someone to do! :) assuming you're not doing anything >'odd' with the FDC... The 765 does not provide the ability to perform raw track reads/writes like the WD devices do ... I interface with the FDC via direct hardware I/O to both the FDC itself and the DMA system. At some point I will tidy up the source code and make it available, however it is written for my own Micro-C 16-bit DOS compiler, and makes use of my own screen/windowing library - it would take a fair bit of work to port this to another system, but someone with enough spare time could take advantage of my "learning experience", and re-implement the algorithms under Linux or some other system. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 05:14:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 05:14:44 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <42F08D1D.nail27J11TALR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <42F08D1D.nail27J11TALR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 8/3/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Any chance you have some RX01 disks to try? They are SSSD [...] > > They're just perfectly standard IBM 3740-format SSSD floppies. If > the PC-clone used has a FDC that does single density, what could > possibly be a problem? Untested software is prone to odd breakage? I'm not saying "it will never work"... I was just curious if he had any RX01s to verify proper functionality. Unfortunately, he does not. I can't say when I'd have the chance to do my own tests, but 2007 is looking pretty good. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 05:31:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:31:37 +0000 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1123065097.27540.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 05:58 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I'm really getting fed-up with the limitations of the PC floppy disk > controller. > > Here's another idea I've had on the back-burner for quite some time, I've > mentioned to a couple of you during private correspondance, but here it is > for open discussion. > > The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, > a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a > few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. > The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and > would properly interface to all drive types. Yep, although I still think that talking raw to the floppy drive (buffering a track at a time) and processing in software's the way to go.. I think I figured on about 256KB of static ram for the track buffer, 8x sample rate. Z80 to do the processing (although memory addressing when sampling / playing back data would be under control of a seperate clock/up-counter for speed reasons). Say 32KB of workspace memory for the Z80. An addressable latch for the Z80 to control the floppy control lines. I was actually thinking of a parallel interface, but serial works too. Heck, stick that part of it on its own board and use whatever interface you prefer (subject to ROM change or drivers for both in ROM, jumper selectable). 256KB of static RAM doesn't seem to unreasonable (in terms of board footprint) made with modern-ish parts. > Firmware would be developed to provide read/format/write/analysis > capabilities around the more powerful WD chip. Images would be transferred > via the serial connection to and from the PC. This should allow us to > archive soft-sector formats that are not compatible with the PC, and also > to perform these functions under virtually any PC environment. Is there anything the WD chip won't handle versus a raw track approach? Hard-sectored disks? What about chances of error recovery? I'm just having visions of an external catweasel equivalent (only portable!) made from parts found in the average junk bin... > I just haven't had time to design and build the board ... anyone else > interested in working together on such a project? I'm interested in anything that's external to be honest. I think I'd prefer something made out of 'classic' parts though (Z80 / 6502 / EPROM etc.) rather than something that needed me to go out and buy a new- fangled CPU, programmer etc. :) cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 07:58:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:58:48 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <0IKN00CWFDDCLJ17@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:58:03 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. >> >>Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a >>professional musician). >> >>I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered >>the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. > >Unfortunately it's looking like mixed sector sizes within one track are >not within the capabilities of the 765 to write - although I could probably >READ them OK (and with a documented image file format, you would at least >have access to the data so you could try to find some other way to recreate >the disks if you had to). Dave there is a trick. Looks at FCOPY at Gaby's (unoffical CPM archive). Tim and I developed it for a project and it's not a generic imager. However we found a few things out and one is that most 765 implmentations will lock up if in the worng mode (SD or DD) initially. So to do mixed sector you can't write. However reading is possible if you first try the mode that doesnt lock first then switch. In the end you will be recreating the catsweasel. If you really want to go to the next level starty with a PC fast enough and skip the whole FDC chip thing. The next level is a data speperator logic and a shift register that can be read at the bit rate by the PC and do the needed pattern regognition (look for sync, address marks and the like), and then build a literally imaged disk and that can be anaylysed. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 08:05:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:05:26 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <0IKN002ZFDOEFHZ8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:14:44 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/3/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> > Any chance you have some RX01 disks to try? They are SSSD [...] >> >> They're just perfectly standard IBM 3740-format SSSD floppies. If >> the PC-clone used has a FDC that does single density, what could >> possibly be a problem? > >Untested software is prone to odd breakage? > >I'm not saying "it will never work"... I was just curious if he had >any RX01s to verify proper functionality. Unfortunately, he does not. > I can't say when I'd have the chance to do my own tests, but 2007 is >looking pretty good. > >-ethan RX01s are so generic they are a standard for 3740. Seriously if it can't read RX01 its more than broke. Now if it reads more unusual formats that are not clearly 3740 then thats different. FYI: I use 765A(base chip on S100), 9266(765A from SMC with internal data sep), and 37C65 (WDpart) and 37c665(in a PC) to read and write RX01 and SSSD CP/M interchange media no problem. In fact I get RX01 floppies by formatting them using that hardware as RX01 can't format blank media. Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 08:05:21 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:05:21 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42F0C111.2040405@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I'm really getting fed-up with the limitations of the PC floppy disk > controller. > > Here's another idea I've had on the back-burner for quite some time, I've > mentioned to a couple of you during private correspondance, but here it is > for open discussion. > > The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, > a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a > few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. > The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and > would properly interface to all drive types. > > Firmware would be developed to provide read/format/write/analysis > capabilities around the more powerful WD chip. Images would be transferred > via the serial connection to and from the PC. This should allow us to > archive soft-sector formats that are not compatible with the PC, and also > to perform these functions under virtually any PC environment. > > I just haven't had time to design and build the board ... anyone else > interested in working together on such a project? Dave, why not just write software for a catweasel card? I realize that the catweasel's FPGA has been programmed with a bitmap made from closed-source RTL, but is that a serious impedement? When the day comes that the catweasel is no longer supported/sold, it would be possible to at that point design another one. People here have daydreamed reinventing the catweasel with only TTL parts so prevent lock-in; that is fine, but nobody has done anything about it (the daydreaming is the easy part, by a factor of 1000). The catweasel is here and real, and at $100, it is price reasonably. At that last statement I know one or more people are going to say: rubbish, I have the parts here in my junk bin that I could put together what I want for free. Well, what you'd have would be a pile parts that took at least ten hours of design time, and you'd still need to spend much more than that writing software before coming up to speed with the catweasel. Sure, not everybody will be able/willing to spend $100 for something like this, but that is far less than the number of people who would be put off by having to build their own hardware. The one thing that I feel is missing from the catweasel is a 50-pin header for connecting to standard 8" floppies. Another minor gripe is that each of the versions of the catweasel (now four) tries to be register compatible with previous versions while adding new functionality. It has lead to some arcane programming requirements, which is sad: a very thin API to hide version changes would have made things much simpler. Finally, is the WD2793 able to read northstar horizon floppy disks? If not, then a WD2793-based solution is not general enough. From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 08:34:33 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:34:33 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <20050803133418.FYGD11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. The different set of sector numbers didn't bother ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head ids which didn't match the physical head selection. I can imagine that someone somewhere does weird things with the Cylinder ids on a track as well ... So .. as of a few minutes ago, ImageDisk can handle non- standard Cylinder and Head ids on individual sectors. I added this in a way which is backward compatible with the existing image file format - basically, I used two unused bits at the top of the track Head indicator to indicate the presence of a "sector Cylinder map", and/or a "sector Head map" - these maps will be present when the track contains cylinder/head values which do not match the physical location of the track. I'll post the updated version later today after I have done some further testing. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pbmain at wideopenwest.com Wed Aug 3 09:48:48 2005 From: pbmain at wideopenwest.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:48:48 -0500 Subject: Analog modem question Help - thanks! Message-ID: <20050803133644.M20492@wideopenwest.com> Thanks everyone for their help with the Analog phone line/modem/pbx/term server/etc question I had! Really helpful!! I've got a few different ways to go about it now. I think I'll keep an eye out for a small analog PBX...again, I'm locked to the analog modems on my target system - it's an older machine and the software isn't adjustable for other modems, nor does it have the capability to add multiple serial ports to go with external modems. Even if I could get multiple serial ports, I'm working with software that lets me chose 1 of two brands of internal modem... Without reworking the code, which i'm in no way a programmer, would quite an undertaking right now.. My first step is tracking down a Term server that would translate the internet telnet requests to trigger a DTR drop, which will in turn trigger the external modem to dial out....OR....incorporating the analog modem into the term server to dial out without needing external modems and cables. This is all through "reverse telnet" from what I gathered? Does anyone have any suggestions of models? The Portmaster 2 or 2e sounded like a possibility... not sure if there were others, or perhaps instead of the external modems there was a cheap modem bank system out there, so I could tie the term server to the modem bank, and the modem bank would have analog lines coming out of it that would go to my PBX? Pete From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 3 08:49:03 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:49:03 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: > Here's another idea I've had on the back-burner for quite some time, I've > mentioned to a couple of you during private correspondance, but here it is > for open discussion. > > The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, > a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a > few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. > The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and > would properly interface to all drive types. > > Firmware would be developed to provide read/format/write/analysis > capabilities around the more powerful WD chip. Images would be transferred > via the serial connection to and from the PC. This should allow us to > archive soft-sector formats that are not compatible with the PC, and also > to perform these functions under virtually any PC environment. > > I just haven't had time to design and build the board ... anyone else > interested in working together on such a project? Sure, I'd like to help. But, as someone else has already pointed out, it would be nice if we could make it support more platforms with a hardware raw sampler/software decode design. In specific, once we get it working on more popular formats, I would work towards getting such a system to support Ohio Scientific (surprise!). Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 09:03:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:03:50 -0700 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <6de3b3181be0a8f1aa462a26e5b3e5cf@bitsavers.org> > Is there anything the WD chip won't handle versus a raw track approach? Any format not derived from the IBM SD and DD standards. - HP 300 - DEC RX02 - TI FD1000 - INTEL M2FM DD - AED 2500 and 6200 - AED WINC05 5" Eric and I built a sampling reader as you suggested a while back. I would suggest storing deltas between transitions, measured at a much higher rate (from memory, Catweasel can delta at up to 40MHz resolution) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 3 08:10:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:10:59 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: References: <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:32 PM 8/2/05 -0700, you wrote: >Chad Fernandez wrote: >>Joe R. wrote: >>>Glen, >>> >>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. >>> >>> Joe > >>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) It's a surprise! Send money and find out :-) Joe > >I don't know, but the downside is that he seems to want payment first :^) > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 3 09:16:42 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:16:42 +0200 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> Message-ID: <42F0EDEA.27288.FD948507@localhost> Am 2 Aug 2005 16:36 meinte Julian Wolfe: > I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking mainly as > an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To charge to exhibit, > then not charge for admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who > hauled their stuff out to show. This wouldn't be so bad, except that the > promised T-shirts were never delivered, and without notice to anyone. It > may only be ten dollars, but it's a matter of principal. Way to show > appreciation for your exhibitors by ripping us off. Having read that, and seen other posts, I think I have to add my comments on VCF MW (not that I would have hold them back anyway). To begin with, I have to recognice that it was the first show Pat ever did, and remembering my first VCF in Munich, or other firsts, he did a quite good job. Beeing without prior experience, Pat tried to implement the guidelines layed out in Sallams VCF Handbook as straight forward as possible. The processes pointed out therin are a result of several years of experience, but as all written rules, they need to be adjusted to the reality each time gain (did somebody shout kai-zen?). So one of the things that happened to be reality at Purdue was the seperation of speeches and exhibiton in two rooms on different floors. People went in to the speech without having shown up at registration before. Also with all the in and out, and a rather unlucky placement of the registration (forced due the floorplan) it was hard to enforce payment. So the switch to a voluntary payment was just fair. I think I was even part of the reason to this decision, since I pointed out to him that several people attended the speeches before paying the entrance fee. For the next VCF MW, I suggest to implement three measures: a) Using two rooms with a common entrance and connected to each other b) Handing out tickets (or stickers) to the visitors which they have to show for reentrance. c) Strict entrance controll (Real checks, not TSA style) Especialy a (and c) was also something I had to learn the hard way for VCFe - people try alwas to sneak in, and if you don't watch all entrences (or reduce them to one), they do so even without knowing that they should have payed. > I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the old > saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Julian, I would realy like to see you as an exhibitor again. We need to give Pat the same privilege to have a second try. We all should strive to a professional format, but don't forget that this is still 100% hobby driven (and in my opinion will stay that way). VCF at large being the #1 venture in classic computer shows doesn't change that fact. To be honest, I was also a bit surprised about the USD 10 when Pat asked me to pay - I guess he remembers my face - but I figured that it needs every buck possibele to get VCF over the hill, espechialy since attendance was hard to guess before the show happened. Now, coming to fees for exhibitors and comparsions to other shows, we should make a few definitions aghead: An *exhibitor* is a person at the VCF who shows of his or her computer(s) just for the sake of it. No upfront comercial interest here (*1) A *vendor* is someone who vants to sell or trade things at VCF. No matter if he's a pro, semi-pro, or just getting rid of surplus stuff. On trade shows such persons may be called exhibitors, but since VCF is a combination, we have a need to distinguish here. A *speaker* is someone hwo gives a lecture at VCF. A *visitor* is a person who attends VCF to experience the 'services' of the other three cathegories. I think it's out of question that usualy the vendors and visitors are supposed to pay an according fee. Now, for speakers and exhibitors, there may be different rules. It has also always been a difference between VCF California and VCF Europa. While the VCF handbook suggests a exhibitor fee, VCFe just asks exhibitors on a personal base (so for each person) for a voluntary buy of the 'Exhibitoners Pack' (ar about USD 30 each (*2)). I get a pretty good turnout there, since people realy want to support the show. For a future VCF MW, this might be the way to go. Especialy as long as an entrance fee for visitors can not be enforced. Some of the confusion might also be attributed to communication. That is another lesson to learn when you do a show like VCF. 95% of your job as producer at VCF is to produce in front of all people, you are have to act as a carnical barker :) If the change in the entrance police would have been made public right away, and eventualy extended to the exhibitor fee (not vendor), I doubt that any of the vendors would have gone back to request a refund. Speaking of a money making scheme, Pat, I want my money back! Preferably in 2 nice installments of a cold beer at the next VCF MW. H. Oh, and Pat, all the above is ment as constructive kritics, and not in any way to put you and your helpers down. I was realy surprised how well VCF MW went. *1 - In fact, my exhibiton was a new interface card for the Apple II (It's a nice full size prototype card, including support logic and a full Megabyte of flash, just send me a mail if you're interested, a website will be up soon) I did not bring any additional to VCF MW, since I wanted to go in there just to show my tinkering with the Apple II. *2 - Well, 30 USD seams a lot, but people get 4 meals (2x Lunch, 1x Breakfast, 1 huge Dinner Buffert) and some snacks included. It'S my belive, that there's nothing worse than people attending the show getting grumpy over not enough food *G* -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 3 09:16:06 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:16:06 -0500 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050803091507.04e50e50@mail> At 03:10 AM 8/3/2005, Joe R. wrote: >>>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) > It's a surprise! Send money and find out :-) As a teen in the late 70s, I remember buying more than a few "surprise boxes" from surplus electronics companies. Maybe you've hit upon a great way to lighten your collection. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 09:17:44 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:17:44 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <517f220e58b3920ab1d597bb81b06768@bitsavers.org> Reason I ask is that I just had a look under Linux and it's possible (at least with 2.6 kernels - no idea about earlier) to setup the FDC from user-land via the fd floppy device. -- And there is code to do make floppy images with this http://dmklib.brouhaha.com Probably needs to be some code to go between dmk and teledisk, since dmklib is currently read-only. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 09:24:38 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:24:38 -0700 Subject: Dealing with Ensoniq disks Message-ID: <700498b02fd546ab3dad2046d536ba95@bitsavers.org> a quick google search and: http://sustenance.va.com.au/d/mirage/msg.html http://yceran.org/eps/ though it looks like there are lots of stale links for the interesting stuff. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 3 09:26:42 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:26:42 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <004c01c597e4$92d1ae40$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <17135.59920.0.423778@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3205662500.817400@www.chatteremail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050802201126.04c80870@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050803094408.01bd8780@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bob Shannon may have mentioned these words: >>Dudez & Dudettez... It's all for the fun of it anyway! > >I'm not sure this approach works as well in all areas. Then let me know which areas this doesn't work and I'll be sure to avoid them. [[ OK, if there's implied attitude in the above statement, it's not intended.... ]] 98% of my workday involves Winblows, lusers, cow-orkers and spam. My other 2% can be defined as "commute." Classic computing is something I do to get away from the "formality of crap" that makes up my day, and the few moments I get to steal away from my employer (well, that'd be me ;-) I consider to be a "3-minute personal holiday." When classic computing becomes Ducks Unlimited, the Elks lodge or Bill Gates dinner parties, I'm either 1) moving to the mountains of British Columbia with a generator and solar power, to enjoy my classics in peace, or 2) selling it all, hoping I make enough for a one-way ticket to Germany so I can at least drink decent beer. >These are in fact rare and valuable machines. The value of these machines is >clearly rising. Collecting these machines will evolve, and many people are >serious collectors already. > >I see no reason VCF events should not also evolve. Well, if you're talking VCF explicitly, I think that would be up to Sellam, Pat, Hans and other that actually put them on. Others are certainly entitled to start their own venues and set their own rules. I can say one thing: If the VCF's evolve in the direction you're hinting at, I'll bow out now, because I don't know if I'd have the same "intestinal fortitude" Sellam has to get the ball rolling on a similar project, and the "New and Improved" VCF would be no fun for me whatsoever. [[ And yes, my coin collection has been for the most part static for 2 decades, since that hobby was yanked out of the hands of the common man. ]] All above is IMHO, of course. Trying (and so far failing) to survive yet another grumpy Wednesday, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. Why do they always call Wednesdays "hump day" when I'm too damn tired for sex??? :-O ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 09:32:35 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:32:35 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <20050803143233.GYPF11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Allison, >>Unfortunately it's looking like mixed sector sizes within one track are >>not within the capabilities of the 765 to write - although I could probably >>READ them OK (and with a documented image file format, you would at least >>have access to the data so you could try to find some other way to recreate >>the disks if you had to). > >Dave there is a trick. > >Looks at FCOPY at Gaby's (unoffical CPM archive). Tim and I developed it >for a project and it's not a generic imager. However we found a few things >out and one is that most 765 implmentations will lock up if in the worng >mode (SD or DD) initially. So to do mixed sector you can't write. However >reading is possible if you first try the mode that doesnt lock first then >switch. Thanks for the info - I'll check it out when I make the changes to support mixed density reading ... (which may be a while). >In the end you will be recreating the catsweasel. If you really want to >go to the next level starty with a PC fast enough and skip the whole FDC >chip thing. The next level is a data speperator logic and a shift >register that can be read at the bit rate by the PC and do the needed >pattern regognition (look for sync, address marks and the like), and then >build a literally imaged disk and that can be anaylysed. I've thought about this - I can do 500khz samples on a PC parallel port, and with some simple hardware I could get 8x this - but it seems dodgey, and unless I disable all interrupts (which has it's own set of problems including losing HD access) there would be excessive real-time jitter. I've also thought about dropping in something line a 90Mhz (or faster) ARM - which would give me a much higher sampling speed and better real- time control than a PC ... but this gets tough to build... The 2793 would be easy to build, and should handle most soft-sector disks. The "read track" and "write track" functions of the WD chip allow near raw- access to the track data. But these questions are part of the reason I've not done anything toward a hardware solution so far. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 3 09:42:02 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:42:02 +0200 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <42F0F3DA.27052.FDABB54E@localhost> Am 3 Aug 2005 8:10 meinte Joe R.: > At 07:32 PM 8/2/05 -0700, you wrote: > >Chad Fernandez wrote: > >>Joe R. wrote: > >>>Glen, > >>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. > >>> Joe > >>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) > It's a surprise! Send money and find out :-) Gimme your account information :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 09:53:11 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:53:11 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, >> a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a >> few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. >> The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and >> would properly interface to all drive types. >Dave, why not just write software for a catweasel card? I realize that the >catweasel's FPGA has been programmed with a bitmap made from closed-source RTL, >but is that a serious impedement? Yes. - What happens when the catweasel becomes unavailable? >When the day comes that the catweasel is no longer supported/sold, it would be >possible to at that point design another one. Will it? Or will nobody bother as it's a tough job. Will it be 100% compatible, or will we find that disks that were created with this at-least partially proprietary system will be "lost" if the system cannot be made to work? > People here have daydreamed reinventing the catweasel with only TTL parts so >prevent lock-in; that is fine, but nobody has done anything about it (the >daydreaming is the easy part, by a factor of 1000). This would be my point. >The catweasel is here and real, and at $100, it is price reasonably. The $100 cost, and the fact that you have to order and wait for it, means that a significant number of people won't bother (I haven't) - something you can build in a few hours in your workshop at near-$0 cost will get done by more people. Everyone who has a vintage computer and doesn't use it, means one more set of disks that are not preserved. >At that last statement I know one or more people are going to say: rubbish, I >have the parts here in my junk bin that I could put together what I want for >free. Well, what you'd have would be a pile parts that took at least ten hours >of design time, and you'd still need to spend much more than that writing >software before coming up to speed with the catweasel. The design time is a non-issue, what I am proposing is essentially the publishing of a tested design. It would also include basic software, and be fully documented to encourage other to add to the software base. Is the cat software open-source, are the internal and storage formats fully documented - one big thing about the work that I have been doing is to make sure that people in the future can access the data from the images so that they can find "other means" of regenerating the disk if necessary - even if that regenerated disk is just a different format image for a simulator. >Sure, not everybody will >be able/willing to spend $100 for something like this, but that is far less than >the number of people who would be put off by having to build their own hardware. On this point I disagree - the board I am thinking of would be very simple, perhaps a dozen DIP chips - easy to build. I think a lot of the people on this list would gladly take an evening or two to build one - also if it were to be done, printed circuit boards, and even finished/tested boards could be made available at low cost (like the cat), but unlike the cat, fully documented and you can build it yourself if you like. It would not be "owned" or controlled by anyone. >The one thing that I feel is missing from the catweasel is a 50-pin header for >connecting to standard 8" floppies. A grave omission for something thats supposed to archive non-PC-standard disks. >Another minor gripe is that each of the versions of the catweasel (now four) >tries to be register compatible with previous versions while adding new >functionality. It has lead to some arcane programming requirements, which is >sad: a very thin API to hide version changes would have made things much simpler. But would have tied the thing to one particular development environment (Here's you VisualC++ library - have a nice day). The best solution is a fully open and documented description of the hardware and lots of sample code. >Finally, is the WD2793 able to read northstar horizon floppy disks? If not, >then a WD2793-based solution is not general enough. As noted in the original message, it would be soft-sector only - the idea is to make a simple/cheap alternative to the limitations of the PC controller... Still deciding if it's worth it - I'll record your "NO" vote. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 3 10:27:01 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:27:01 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200508031027.01533.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 August 2005 09:53, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a > >> microcontroller, a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, > >> enough memory to buffer a few tracks, and a high-speed serial port > >> for communication with the PC. The board would have connectors for > >> 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and would properly interface to all > >> drive types. > > > >Dave, why not just write software for a catweasel card? I realize > > that the catweasel's FPGA has been programmed with a bitmap made > > from closed-source RTL, but is that a serious impedement? > > Yes. - What happens when the catweasel becomes unavailable? What happens when (disk controller of choice) become unavailable? :) > >When the day comes that the catweasel is no longer supported/sold, > > it would be possible to at that point design another one. > > Will it? Or will nobody bother as it's a tough job. > Will it be 100% compatible, or will we find that disks that were > created with this at-least partially proprietary system will be > "lost" if the system cannot be made to work? The people making it aren't a "huge corporation", they're just regular people, and I'm sure you could talk to them about such things. > >The catweasel is here and real, and at $100, it is price > > reasonably. > > The $100 cost, and the fact that you have to order and wait for it, > means that a significant number of people won't bother (I haven't) - > something you can build in a few hours in your workshop at near-$0 > cost will get done by more people. Fine, buy one off ebay for less than $100, and get it within a week. That's what I did. The catweasel is a great product for its price, IMO. I don't have enough parts in my junk bin to build a disk controller, and there's a lot of people that don't have the skills to assemble something like that. > Is the cat software open-source, are the internal and storage formats > fully documented - one big thing about the work that I have been > doing is to make sure that people in the future can access the data > from the images so that they can find "other means" of regenerating > the disk if necessary - even if that regenerated disk is just a > different format image for a simulator. Yes, otherwise it wouldn't work with any formats. The whole point of the catweasel is that 3rd parties write software for it to decode disk formats. > >Sure, not everybody will > >be able/willing to spend $100 for something like this, but that is > > far less than the number of people who would be put off by having > > to build their own hardware. > > On this point I disagree - the board I am thinking of would be very > simple, perhaps a dozen DIP chips - easy to build. I think a lot of > the people on this list would gladly take an evening or two to build > one - also if it were to be done, printed circuit boards, and even > finished/tested boards could be made available at low cost (like the > cat), but unlike the cat, fully documented and you can build it > yourself if you like. It would not be "owned" or controlled by > anyone. I know a lot of people that wouldn't build ANY hardware. Even more people (like myself) would rather spend the money for a catweasel than try to find parts and build something that doesn't have the functionality of a catweasel.... Do you think you'll get your WD chip solution to read Apple ][ or C64 (1571-written) disks? I'm doubtful at best. That's a huge volume of the disks I've got laying around and eventually want to make images of. > >The one thing that I feel is missing from the catweasel is a 50-pin > > header for connecting to standard 8" floppies. > > A grave omission for something thats supposed to archive > non-PC-standard disks. If you're supposing the user can wire up a disk controller, why can't they wire up a simple 34(SA400) to 50(SA800) pin adapter cable? Also, you can buy an SA400/SA800 adaptor board that someone has made, which properly controls the TG43 line. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the board or who made it right now. > >Another minor gripe is that each of the versions of the catweasel > > (now four) tries to be register compatible with previous versions > > while adding new functionality. It has lead to some arcane > > programming requirements, which is sad: a very thin API to hide > > version changes would have made things much simpler. > > But would have tied the thing to one particular development > environment (Here's you VisualC++ library - have a nice day). The > best solution is a fully open and documented description of the > hardware and lots of sample code. There's no reason a bit of C wrapper code has to be tied to any particular 'development environment'. > >Finally, is the WD2793 able to read northstar horizon floppy disks? > > If not, then a WD2793-based solution is not general enough. > > As noted in the original message, it would be soft-sector only - the > idea is to make a simple/cheap alternative to the limitations of the > PC controller... I'd say that by ignoring (specifically) Apple ][ and C64, you're missing a large percentage of possible software/users. > Still deciding if it's worth it - I'll record your "NO" vote. Not to discourage you, but, I'd echo the sentiment above. I'd suggest that if you do want to produce something, make something that can read the disk on a flux-transition level, and store that sort of data. Something nice and generic. That way, you can do all the processing in software, and handle any format of disk that comes your way. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 10:50:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:50:10 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <0IKN0006ILAW6LI4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Another disk imaging project > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:53:11 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>Finally, is the WD2793 able to read northstar horizon floppy disks? If not, >>then a WD2793-based solution is not general enough. No, the NS* hard sector format done not use or encode all the marks used by most FDC chips. The upside of NS* is that a simple data seperator and a shift register are all thats needed to read it (look at the board schematics). Most fo the board is centered on getting the data rate down to something an 8080 can handle. Data bit rates for NS* are 125 and 250kb/s so it's very slow relative to what most newer machines can do. Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 10:51:01 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:51:01 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <6de3b3181be0a8f1aa462a26e5b3e5cf@bitsavers.org> References: <6de3b3181be0a8f1aa462a26e5b3e5cf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42F0E7E5.3000007@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > > Is there anything the WD chip won't handle versus a raw track approach? > > Any format not derived from the IBM SD and DD standards. > > - HP 300 > - DEC RX02 > - TI FD1000 > - INTEL M2FM DD > - AED 2500 and 6200 > - AED WINC05 5" Compucolor PTDOS > Eric and I built a sampling reader as you suggested a while back. > I would suggest storing deltas between transitions, measured at a > much higher rate (from memory, Catweasel can delta at up to 40MHz > resolution) From the catweasel 3 docs: > Setting clock speed: > To set the clockspeed with the CatOption register, reset the memory counter > to 0 by writing 0 to the CatAbort register. Writing 0 to CatOption will set > the clock rate to 14Mhz. Writing 128 (0x80) to CatOption will set the clock > rate to 28Mhz, and writing 192 (0xc0) to CatOption will set the clock speed > to 56Mhz (to be precise, 56.644Mhz). From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 10:59:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay Message-ID: <200508031559.IAA12125@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:19:52 -0400 >"'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > >> Regarding the "first" PC specifically, Doug Salot explains it quite >> well: http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve >> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:11 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Kenbak-1 on Ebay >> >> I don't think you can ever claim any computer as the first one without >> some qualifications(computer using relays, tubes, TTL, microprocessor >> etc), I think in the 1950's a relay computer kit called Simon was >> available from Radio Electronics. >> >> For microprocessor based computers the original manufacturer always >> made the first computers based on their processor (so if you assume >> the 4004 was the first microprocessor then Intel Intellec or its >> single board cousin Sim-4 could be considered the first microprocessor >> based computers). >> > >Well, Intel didn't originally really intend the 4004 to be the basis of >a general purpose programmable computer. I suppose their early >development hardware can be considered a 'personal computer' kinda >sorta. > >Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect >development hardware? I have an assortment of 'development systems' all >the way from the little cheap 'evaluation kit' boards to my MDS system >with 8051 hardware ICE. (I also have the Intel 'bubble memory >development kit' which includes bubble memory on an ISA card, docs and >'sample' drivers to make it a small DOS non-volatile memory, which is >probably one of the more rare Intel 'Development Kits') I grab up >emulators and what-not where I can get them, like I got another 68HC11 >emulator and a 68HC16 at the last IUPUI auction for five bucks each >(complete in-the-box with everything). > Hi I do have a few items but don't specifically go out to find such things. I have a working SIM4-01, a i2920 development board ( analog processor, not bit slice ). MDS800, SDK85, SDK86, Z80 ICE for multibus and a ICE for 6502 ( standalone ). I have several small developement boards such as SYM-1, EZDSP2181 and a 80188 board. I also have several Intel SBC boards for 8080's of different versions. So, yes, there are a number of us that have such things. Dwight From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 3 11:19:27 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:19:27 +0200 Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20050802202631.1a715059.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200508020525.j725PYvn010443@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42F10AAF.7974.FE04E6ED@localhost> Am 2 Aug 2005 20:26 meinte Scott Stevens: > Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect > development hardware? I have an assortment of 'development systems' all > the way from the little cheap 'evaluation kit' boards to my MDS system > with 8051 hardware ICE. (I also have the Intel 'bubble memory > development kit' which includes bubble memory on an ISA card, docs and > 'sample' drivers to make it a small DOS non-volatile memory, which is > probably one of the more rare Intel 'Development Kits') I grab up > emulators and what-not where I can get them, like I got another 68HC11 > emulator and a 68HC16 at the last IUPUI auction for five bucks each > (complete in-the-box with everything). Singleboarders of any kind are basiclyaht I like most. Shure, todays development kits, which work only with some kind of PC are less fun then the old stand alone (not to speak of 'real' systems ala ISIS or Exorciser), but it's still a lot of fun. I got me a Z80183 kit at VCF MW, and just ordered the eZ80 Kit from Zilog. Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 11:35:08 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:35:08 -0700 Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) Message-ID: <8ac33124ac6e38ea4f1ead2927cce0f2@bitsavers.org> > Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect > development hardware? I do. Development systems: Tek 8002A, 85x0's Some for the HP 64000 (would like to get a simulator for this running some day). Some docs on bitsavers, no software. Millennium 9520 In-circuit emulators: various Applied Microsystems various Huntsville Microsystems various Microtek MICE and various Gould and HP logic analyzers (fav is HP 16500B) And, as usual, the hardware is fairly easy to find and documentation and software nearly impossible. As companies stop using uP's, they toss the development equipment. The iron shows up, but not the sw or manuals. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 11:44:13 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:44:13 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42F0F45D.30006@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, >>>a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a >>>few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. >>>The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and >>>would properly interface to all drive types. > > >>Dave, why not just write software for a catweasel card? ... >>When the day comes that the catweasel is no longer supported/sold, it would be >>possible to at that point design another one. > > > Will it? Or will nobody bother as it's a tough job. > Will it be 100% compatible, or will we find that disks that were created with > this at-least partially proprietary system will be "lost" if the system cannot > be made to work? Most of the catweasel complexity (which is all buried in the FPGA) comes from supporting C64 sound chips, timers, joystick ports, and other stuff. I get the impression that for many of the people who use this, it isn't an archiving tool -- they plug it into their amiga or PC, install the C64 software, and then just use their machines like a native C64. The complexity of the formats that people create for various disk images is independent of the complexity of the hardware. Why hasn't somebody done an open catweasel? I think part of the issue is that for the people who would be interested in it, $100 isn't that off-putting. If the catweasel developer lost interest (he has been supporting it through four versions for, how long? 10 years? so far), then there would be a void that makes it more attractive to come up with another solution. ... > Is the cat software open-source, are the internal and storage formats fully > documented - one big thing about the work that I have been doing is to make > sure that people in the future can access the data from the images so that > they can find "other means" of regenerating the disk if necessary - even if > that regenerated disk is just a different format image for a simulator. The software is open source. The people (one actually) who sell don't really develop the software. Other enthusiasts write the code to varying levels of support. The format used for a particular format is a question independent of the catweasel card. Tim Mann has written code to read/write TRS-80 and RX-somethingorother format disks to DMK format. The source is online. I've written code for PTDOS and the source is available, although I doubt that anybody but me has ever used it (now there is a test case that would give your disk archiver a challenge). I have more than 100 compucolor disks that I intend to archive, and that is guaranteed to not be compatable with your program either. I know the C64 linux drivers are open source. The only thing closed is the RTL used to generate the FPGA bitmap. >>Sure, not everybody will >>be able/willing to spend $100 for something like this, but that is far less than >>the number of people who would be put off by having to build their own hardware. > > > On this point I disagree - the board I am thinking of would be very simple, > perhaps a dozen DIP chips - easy to build. I think a lot of the people on this > list would gladly take an evening or two to build one - also if it were to be > done, printed circuit boards, and even finished/tested boards could be made > available at low cost (like the cat), but unlike the cat, fully documented and > you can build it yourself if you like. It would not be "owned" or controlled by > anyone. I still stand by my bald assertion that more people would be put off by having to build it themselves than those who would be put off by the $100. Also, for your $100 you get a professionally made board. Many of the home built cards, even if only a dozen chips, might end up flakey and frustrating for the builders. >>The one thing that I feel is missing from the catweasel is a 50-pin header for >>connecting to standard 8" floppies. > > > A grave omission for something thats supposed to archive non-PC-standard disks. A hassle for sure, but certainly a lot less than wirewrapping an assortment of TTL parts PLUS the 34/50 pin headers. >>Another minor gripe is that each of the versions of the catweasel (now four) >>tries to be register compatible with previous versions while adding new >>functionality. It has lead to some arcane programming requirements, which is >>sad: a very thin API to hide version changes would have made things much simpler. > > > But would have tied the thing to one particular development environment (Here's > you VisualC++ library - have a nice day). The best solution is a fully open and > documented description of the hardware and lots of sample code. That is a strawman -- it is possible to write a C library that is tied to a particular environment, but that is self-defeating. People write portable C libraries all the time. >>Finally, is the WD2793 able to read northstar horizon floppy disks? If not, >>then a WD2793-based solution is not general enough. > > As noted in the original message, it would be soft-sector only - the idea is to > make a simple/cheap alternative to the limitations of the PC controller... *some* of the limitations > Still deciding if it's worth it - I'll record your "NO" vote. Dave, I applaud you taking on the archiving problem. Teledisk has been used so long simply because there is no good free alternative. Even with the shortcomings of the 765, DiskImage is a good replacement for teledisk in that it is a software-only solution for the most common controller on the planet. I think the next step after that requires hardware, and so why stop at a partial solution? Personally, I hope to get around to getting my catweasel IV set up soon. If the ImageDisk format is flexible enough, I'd be happy to write catweasel software that can read/write the formats I care about to ImageDisk foramt. I strongly suspect that it isn't flexible enough to represent the PTDOS format, which is the format that I've already made up my own disk image foramt for since it is so unusual. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 11:46:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:46:47 -0500 Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <8ac33124ac6e38ea4f1ead2927cce0f2@bitsavers.org> References: <8ac33124ac6e38ea4f1ead2927cce0f2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/3/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect > > development hardware? > > I do. > > In-circuit emulators: > > various Applied Microsystems I don't just collect ICEs, I use them - I have a Fluke 9010A with 68000 pod and 6502 pod, and an Applied Microsystems box of some kind (has "2000" in the part number) that we used to use to trace code flow, etc, on the 68000 in our COMBOARDs. It's currently residing inside a former VAX-11/725 case that we used to use to wheel the ICE around in (at one point, 15 years ago, it was cheaper to buy an 11/725 once or twice a year and rob parts than to pay for DEC service on our 11/730. I know there are "better" ways to keep an old machine running, but we didn't have the luxury of time for component-level debugging... at least I got to keep all the old parts). I also have a few evalution kits, the 4MHz Motorola 68000 trainer, a Motorola 68HC11, and an Intel 8086 are probably my best examples. -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 11:56:12 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:56:12 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Yes. - What happens when the catweasel becomes unavailable? > >What happens when (disk controller of choice) become unavailable? :) So ... just to make sure I understand you - you are suggesting that a catweasle (how many have been made?) will be more obtainable than a WD disk controller chip (LOTS made) ...? >> A grave omission for something thats supposed to archive >> non-PC-standard disks. > >If you're supposing the user can wire up a disk controller, why can't >they wire up a simple 34(SA400) to 50(SA800) pin adapter cable? Also, >you can buy an SA400/SA800 adaptor board that someone has made, which >properly controls the TG43 line. Unfortunately, I can't remember the >name of the board or who made it right now. Missed point - if the device is intended to support non-PC disk formats, then why not support 8" drives - it's not hard. Why should you have to buy another board to performs the devices primary function. Also note, that what I proposed would have the 8" interface on it, so the case you mention does not occur - it's the guy who bought the cat (and didn't build a controller) who has to wire up the adapter cable - you have your argument backwards. >> But would have tied the thing to one particular development >> environment (Here's you VisualC++ library - have a nice day). The >> best solution is a fully open and documented description of the >> hardware and lots of sample code. > >There's no reason a bit of C wrapper code has to be tied to any >particular 'development environment'. Not the way it works in my experience (25+ years in embedded development systems/tools) - invariably there will be unreleased source, or library functions which make it tough to use elsewhere. I much prefer good docs on the hardware to wading through reams of un/poorly docuemnted source code. >I'd say that by ignoring (specifically) Apple ][ and C64, you're missing >a large percentage of possible software/users. another missed point ... anyone who's been following my work knows that I have implemented a number of systems to cheaply archive, distribute and restore disk images for various systems. This would have been just another piece in the puzzle. Such systems already exist (and I use them) to archive AppleII and C64 images. >> Still deciding if it's worth it - I'll record your "NO" vote. > >Not to discourage you, but, I'd echo the sentiment above. I'd suggest >that if you do want to produce something, make something that can read >the disk on a flux-transition level, and store that sort of data. >Something nice and generic. That way, you can do all the processing in >software, and handle any format of disk that comes your way. lots of other arguments snipped. Ok - I don't need to get dumped on anymore. Consider the idea dropped... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 12:13:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:13:39 +0000 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F0F45D.30006@pacbell.net> References: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <42F0F45D.30006@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1123089219.27558.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 11:44 -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > The complexity of the formats that people create for various disk images is > independent of the complexity of the hardware. Why hasn't somebody done an open > catweasel? I think part of the issue is that for the people who would be > interested in it, $100 isn't that off-putting. I still think there's a lot of scope for something external and that came with full schematics etc. though. I'm not even sure if I've got any slots free inside my main PC, plus I'd have to take the board out every time I needed it at the museum (or take the whole PC with me). Plus of course it'd mean digging into the case every time I wanted to change physical floppy drives. You're right in that it seems mean geared toward the emulator crowd than it does toward archivists. Last time I looked at the website for catweasel (such as it is) there was very little information on there about the product, and nothing I could see of that listed where drivers could be found for different formats or what formats people were supporting for the card. Seems like anyone buying one is very much on their own there. > >>Sure, not everybody will > >>be able/willing to spend $100 for something like this, but that is far less than > >>the number of people who would be put off by having to build their own hardware. > > > > > > On this point I disagree - the board I am thinking of would be very simple, > > perhaps a dozen DIP chips - easy to build. I think a lot of the people on this > > list would gladly take an evening or two to build one - also if it were to be > > done, printed circuit boards, and even finished/tested boards could be made > > available at low cost (like the cat), but unlike the cat, fully documented and > > you can build it yourself if you like. It would not be "owned" or controlled by > > anyone. > > I still stand by my bald assertion that more people would be put off by having > to build it themselves than those who would be put off by the $100. I'm not so sure - I'd expect that the majority of people who'd be interested in this for archive use will have at least some electronics skills. Different if you're talking about the emulator fans as that sounds like a different scene most of the time. > >>Another minor gripe is that each of the versions of the catweasel (now four) > >>tries to be register compatible with previous versions while adding new > >>functionality. It has lead to some arcane programming requirements, which is > >>sad: a very thin API to hide version changes would have made things much simpler. > > > > > > But would have tied the thing to one particular development environment (Here's > > you VisualC++ library - have a nice day). The best solution is a fully open and > > documented description of the hardware and lots of sample code. > > That is a strawman -- it is possible to write a C library that is tied to a > particular environment, but that is self-defeating. People write portable C > libraries all the time. That's another thing with an external device - you'd abstract out a lot of the really low-level stuff such that the code on the host system is a lot more portable across platforms... Out of interest, what's actually changed between the catweasel revisions? I mean, I thought they always buffered stuff at the track level and did all the decoding / encoding work in software? So I'm surprised the hardware isn't pretty simple and able to support pretty much anything without several revisions... cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 12:13:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:13:02 -0700 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: > Why hasn't somebody done an open catweasel? It's a pretty teeny market (other than the forensics possibilites). I keep wondering why COPY II Plus cards go for so much on eBay. Brad's suggestion of using an ARM with FPGA (or something from Mesa Engineering) could certainly be done. If you define a protocol, doesn't really matter what it's implemented with (my personal preference would be something with enough horsepower that it could just sit on an ethernet) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 12:15:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <200508031715.KAA12134@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Patrick Finnegan" > > >Not to discourage you, but, I'd echo the sentiment above. I'd suggest >that if you do want to produce something, make something that can read >the disk on a flux-transition level, and store that sort of data. >Something nice and generic. That way, you can do all the processing in >software, and handle any format of disk that comes your way. > Hi I've always had in the back of my mind, the thought of building something to capture the raw flux-transitions. I still think the easiest way is to use the SPI port of a DSP, like the 2181 or similar. These processors are quite fast and can post process the raw data into something that can be transferred to the host processor in a more condensed and slower rate. To keep Ethan happy, he could even used one of the old modem cards made by Digicom and Cardinal that have 2115 and 2111 processors on them. A few hardware hacks and it could be a disk data processor. These two modems, called soft modems can have the entire software loaded from a PC. For those that don't have one of these older boards, a 2181 development board might be the way to go. It makes sense to keep the back disk controls from something simple like the parallel port and just use the DSP for the read/write of data. The advantage of such a system is that the part count is minimal. The 2181 has all of its RAM inside. It can bootstrap from a 8 bit EPROM or FLASH. One can connect up a simple parallel or serial to a host PC. It can sample really fast. For those that really need it, it can be programmed in "C" ( although the assembly is very clean ). The entire unit can be done in less than 10 IC's. There are distinct advantages to keeping the data processor separate from the host. One doesn't need to be concerned with how to handle other system level interrupts. One can buffer the data for safer transfer rates to the host system's mass storage. One thought, although the CatWeasel used sample rates on the order of 40MHz, adding a simple flopflop to the input significantly reduces the sampling rate needed( as I've stated before ). Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 12:21:20 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:21:20 -0700 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <9061e345d2d2daeeb9e7ca4bb0cc9782@bitsavers.org> Out of interest, what's actually changed between the catweasel revisions? I mean, I thought they always buffered stuff at the track level and did all the decoding / encoding work in software? So I'm surprised the hardware isn't pretty simple and able to support pretty much anything without several revisions... -- switch from ISA to PCI, then changing from programmed to downloaded fpga they also got rid of some problems dealing with hard-sectored discs the problem with it is both the skanky hardware distribution and software. the useful stuff was all written by Tim Mann. its target market really is not for data recovery. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 3 13:15:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:15:42 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <42F0F3DA.27052.FDABB54E@localhost> References: <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050803131542.3307fbb8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:42 PM 8/3/05 +0200, Hans wrote: >Am 3 Aug 2005 8:10 meinte Joe R.: >> At 07:32 PM 8/2/05 -0700, you wrote: >> >Chad Fernandez wrote: >> >>Joe R. wrote: >> >>>Glen, >> >>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. >> >>> Joe >> >>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) > >> It's a surprise! Send money and find out :-) > >Gimme your account information :) Ok here it is: C A S H :-) Joe From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Aug 3 12:47:10 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:47:10 +0200 Subject: HP 7580A questions Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT a system ? Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. Anyone ? Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 3 12:50:11 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:50:11 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > > lots of other arguments snipped. > > Ok - I don't need to get dumped on anymore. Consider the idea dropped... Umm, please no. I've been staying out of this because I don't have the hardware skills or the knowledge of formats to contribute, but I do have an opinion, or at least I see some factors that make your idea desirable. 1) The first point is something Dave already touched on - there is no One True Solution here. I rad Dave's proposal and I envision a *group* of products, all based on the same basic framework and each supporting more-or-less similar formats and media. It might theoretically be _possible_ to create a device that will read every floppy format ever devised, but why on earth would that be _desirable_? Such a logical behemoth is bound to be extremely complex and expensive, and most of its features and formats will be useless to most of its users. For example, I have an XE1514 cable and a 1514 drive. I do not need those features in an SBC solution. A parallel port and compatible supporting software will be enough. 2) *Any* hardware solution for archiving/migrating/transcribing media is going to be, financially, a negative-sum project. I think that's a given. As interested parties, we need to expect it to be Not Cheap, at least initially. I'm speaking in terms of time as much as money. 3) Individual Computers is a profit-making venture. The catweasel is a current product. While I use and like mine, I don't expect it ever to be an open product. I personally would like to see "the standard" based on more common hardware. 4) Nothing Dave does is written in stone. Worst case, it would be a marginally applicable tool for a few common formats, and a prototypical starting point for further development. 5) (Go ahead and shoot me now.) I see absolutely no reason to base an SBC archival tool on Z80, 8008, or any other classic platform, unless that directly facilitates its function. This is a tool, and should be built from the most efficient and available components. 6) There's not a chance that everybody is going to get everything they need from the first iteration of this project. Anybody remember The Search For The Perfect Archival Format? We have here someone who's interested and experienced, who has a track record of creating useful and useable Stuff, apparently has the resources to START work on a much-needed set of tools, and who is OFFERING TO DO IT. I say we applaud instead of throwing rocks. Doc From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 13:09:35 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:09:35 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <9061e345d2d2daeeb9e7ca4bb0cc9782@bitsavers.org> References: <9061e345d2d2daeeb9e7ca4bb0cc9782@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42F1085F.3070109@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > > Out of interest, what's actually changed between the catweasel > revisions? I mean, I thought they always buffered stuff at the track > level and did all the decoding / encoding work in software? So I'm > surprised the hardware isn't pretty simple and able to support pretty > much anything without several revisions... > > -- > > switch from ISA to PCI, then changing from programmed to downloaded > fpga > > they also got rid of some problems dealing with hard-sectored discs > > the problem with it is both the skanky hardware distribution and > software. the useful stuff was all written by Tim Mann. > > its target market really is not for data recovery. another push that motivated version IV from III is that some part (IIRC, the PCI bridge chip) that the III used was getting harder to obtain. From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 13:09:35 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:09:35 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <9061e345d2d2daeeb9e7ca4bb0cc9782@bitsavers.org> References: <9061e345d2d2daeeb9e7ca4bb0cc9782@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42F1085F.3070109@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > > Out of interest, what's actually changed between the catweasel > revisions? I mean, I thought they always buffered stuff at the track > level and did all the decoding / encoding work in software? So I'm > surprised the hardware isn't pretty simple and able to support pretty > much anything without several revisions... > > -- > > switch from ISA to PCI, then changing from programmed to downloaded > fpga > > they also got rid of some problems dealing with hard-sectored discs > > the problem with it is both the skanky hardware distribution and > software. the useful stuff was all written by Tim Mann. > > its target market really is not for data recovery. another push that motivated version IV from III is that some part (IIRC, the PCI bridge chip) that the III used was getting harder to obtain. From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 13:11:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:11:24 -0400 Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) Message-ID: <20050803181123.KMDD11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> > Speaking of which: are there other people out there who collect >> > development hardware? I don't exactly collect them, but being in the business of creating tools for 8/16-bit devices, I have a BIG pile of assorted evaluation boards, emulation boards, a few ICE's and also a bunch of in-house built development boards. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 3 13:13:52 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:13:52 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> References: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42F10960.40004@pacbell.net> Doc Shipley wrote: ... > We have here someone who's interested and experienced, who has a track > record of creating useful and useable Stuff, apparently has the > resources to START work on a much-needed set of tools, and who is > OFFERING TO DO IT. I say we applaud instead of throwing rocks. Doc, and Dave, I apologize if you consider my comments among the rocks. Dave solicited feedback; that it wasn't all positive shouldn't make Dave feel dumped on, and shouldn't be viewed as rocks. I thought the comments on both sides had merit and none were mean. There is also no need to chose between applauding and throwing rocks if both are merited. :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 3 13:17:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:17:51 +0000 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> References: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1123093071.27558.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-03 at 12:50 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > lots of other arguments snipped. > > > > Ok - I don't need to get dumped on anymore. Consider the idea dropped... > > Umm, please no. I've been staying out of this because I don't have > the hardware skills or the knowledge of formats to contribute, but I do > have an opinion, or at least I see some factors that make your idea > desirable. > > 1) The first point is something Dave already touched on - there is no > One True Solution here. I rad Dave's proposal and I envision a *group* > of products, all based on the same basic framework and each supporting > more-or-less similar formats and media. > > It might theoretically be _possible_ to create a device that will > read every floppy format ever devised, but why on earth would that be > _desirable_? Such a logical behemoth is bound to be extremely complex > and expensive, and most of its features and formats will be useless to > most of its users. picking up on that one... presumably the hardware copes with a huge majority of formats out there if it can handle hard and soft sectored floppies by buffering raw data at the track level? It's the software which then dictates how many formats can actually be interpreted, but as far as the hardware's concerned doesn't it just need to be able to shunt data around between disk / buffer / host with no interpretation of what the data actually is (OK so there's a bit of extra logic there to do the right thing for hard sectored floppies) In other words, would it actually be a logical behemoth? > 2) *Any* hardware solution for archiving/migrating/transcribing media > is going to be, financially, a negative-sum project. I think that's a > given. As interested parties, we need to expect it to be Not Cheap, at > least initially. I'm speaking in terms of time as much as money. Agreed. I couldn't care less about the time aspect (providing it gets done before all floppies on the planet have rotted :) but I'd rather something that didn't require expensive ICs or programming tools (for the hardware controller side) > 5) (Go ahead and shoot me now.) I see absolutely no reason to base an > SBC archival tool on Z80, 8008, or any other classic platform, unless > that directly facilitates its function. This is a tool, and should be > built from the most efficient and available components. My only reason for saying that was really cost / complexity grounds. Eg. most of us who can throw a few bits of electronics together and see the need to archive things will have access to an EPROM programmer. That's probably less true of PIC programmers or other more modern devices. Old 8 bit CPUs are easily obtainable free in scrap equipment (and easily understandable and well documented); the latest whizzy all-in-one IC might well be expensive and a nightmare to program for anyone not familiar with it. *but* at the end of the day complexity's important too. An old 8 bitter won't be fast enough without support hardware to read/write between floppy and buffer memory, nor will it address the whole buffer in one go. That may well dictate the use of a more modern 16 bit chip running at several tens of MHz... but it depends how complex surrounding hardware would be otherwise. > 6) There's not a chance that everybody is going to get everything they > need from the first iteration of this project. Anybody remember The > Search For The Perfect Archival Format? Well, once we have the hardware in place it can flourish :-) cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 13:21:09 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:21:09 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <42F0EDEA.27288.FD948507@localhost> Message-ID: Okay, I guess I have some patching up to do here, just to clarify how I feel after hearing Pat's explanation: 1. There was some miscommunication due to a bunch of factors, and after hearing everything, I really do think Pat did a good job considering the circumstances. I have actually changed my mind about that. 2. I will now for sure be exhibiting next year as long as I get enough ahead notice. Two months is not really enough. I know several people who actually were going to go but had already made plans for that date prior to the show. The more notice I have, the more I can do for preparation. Again, I under stand this was a first time experience, so I'm stating this more as a 'tip' than anything else. 3. I did have a good time at the show. I met a lot of people and had a lot of great conversation. I know I downplayed this a bit before and I apologize for that. Thanks for creating a friendly atmosphere, Pat. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? Am 2 Aug 2005 16:36 meinte Julian Wolfe: > I actually have a few problems with how the show was run, speaking mainly as > an exhibitor, I think it was run quite backwards. To charge to exhibit, > then not charge for admission, is a slap in the face to the individuals who > hauled their stuff out to show. This wouldn't be so bad, except that the > promised T-shirts were never delivered, and without notice to anyone. It > may only be ten dollars, but it's a matter of principal. Way to show > appreciation for your exhibitors by ripping us off. Having read that, and seen other posts, I think I have to add my comments on VCF MW (not that I would have hold them back anyway). To begin with, I have to recognice that it was the first show Pat ever did, and remembering my first VCF in Munich, or other firsts, he did a quite good job. Beeing without prior experience, Pat tried to implement the guidelines layed out in Sallams VCF Handbook as straight forward as possible. The processes pointed out therin are a result of several years of experience, but as all written rules, they need to be adjusted to the reality each time gain (did somebody shout kai-zen?). So one of the things that happened to be reality at Purdue was the seperation of speeches and exhibiton in two rooms on different floors. People went in to the speech without having shown up at registration before. Also with all the in and out, and a rather unlucky placement of the registration (forced due the floorplan) it was hard to enforce payment. So the switch to a voluntary payment was just fair. I think I was even part of the reason to this decision, since I pointed out to him that several people attended the speeches before paying the entrance fee. For the next VCF MW, I suggest to implement three measures: a) Using two rooms with a common entrance and connected to each other b) Handing out tickets (or stickers) to the visitors which they have to show for reentrance. c) Strict entrance controll (Real checks, not TSA style) Especialy a (and c) was also something I had to learn the hard way for VCFe - people try alwas to sneak in, and if you don't watch all entrences (or reduce them to one), they do so even without knowing that they should have payed. > I may attend next year, but I certainly won't exhibit - you know the old > saying...screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Julian, I would realy like to see you as an exhibitor again. We need to give Pat the same privilege to have a second try. We all should strive to a professional format, but don't forget that this is still 100% hobby driven (and in my opinion will stay that way). VCF at large being the #1 venture in classic computer shows doesn't change that fact. To be honest, I was also a bit surprised about the USD 10 when Pat asked me to pay - I guess he remembers my face - but I figured that it needs every buck possibele to get VCF over the hill, espechialy since attendance was hard to guess before the show happened. Now, coming to fees for exhibitors and comparsions to other shows, we should make a few definitions aghead: An *exhibitor* is a person at the VCF who shows of his or her computer(s) just for the sake of it. No upfront comercial interest here (*1) A *vendor* is someone who vants to sell or trade things at VCF. No matter if he's a pro, semi-pro, or just getting rid of surplus stuff. On trade shows such persons may be called exhibitors, but since VCF is a combination, we have a need to distinguish here. A *speaker* is someone hwo gives a lecture at VCF. A *visitor* is a person who attends VCF to experience the 'services' of the other three cathegories. I think it's out of question that usualy the vendors and visitors are supposed to pay an according fee. Now, for speakers and exhibitors, there may be different rules. It has also always been a difference between VCF California and VCF Europa. While the VCF handbook suggests a exhibitor fee, VCFe just asks exhibitors on a personal base (so for each person) for a voluntary buy of the 'Exhibitoners Pack' (ar about USD 30 each (*2)). I get a pretty good turnout there, since people realy want to support the show. For a future VCF MW, this might be the way to go. Especialy as long as an entrance fee for visitors can not be enforced. Some of the confusion might also be attributed to communication. That is another lesson to learn when you do a show like VCF. 95% of your job as producer at VCF is to produce in front of all people, you are have to act as a carnical barker :) If the change in the entrance police would have been made public right away, and eventualy extended to the exhibitor fee (not vendor), I doubt that any of the vendors would have gone back to request a refund. Speaking of a money making scheme, Pat, I want my money back! Preferably in 2 nice installments of a cold beer at the next VCF MW. H. Oh, and Pat, all the above is ment as constructive kritics, and not in any way to put you and your helpers down. I was realy surprised how well VCF MW went. *1 - In fact, my exhibiton was a new interface card for the Apple II (It's a nice full size prototype card, including support logic and a full Megabyte of flash, just send me a mail if you're interested, a website will be up soon) I did not bring any additional to VCF MW, since I wanted to go in there just to show my tinkering with the Apple II. *2 - Well, 30 USD seams a lot, but people get 4 meals (2x Lunch, 1x Breakfast, 1 huge Dinner Buffert) and some snacks included. It'S my belive, that there's nothing worse than people attending the show getting grumpy over not enough food *G* -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 13:37:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:37:20 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted Message-ID: <0IKN00CNRT1HLN19@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:06:48 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >At 21:13 02/08/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>On 8/2/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> I've posted the latest version of ImageDisk and some 8" images that >>> I have archived with it on my classic collection page: >>> >>> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html >>> Dave, Just do it as they say. Even if it's not a 100% solution it's often much more than many have. In engineering there is Good, Fast and Cheap, Pick any two. Now for some opinion: There are a few groups doing archive(s). Those that have working systems and a way to transfer off the system to "something" thereby preserving stuff in case of some failure. Often to enable other user of same to work with it. The other has nothing but media and want access to content. That's more than imaging. Other than that there are those that have ZXY and need a "disk" and want it in ZXY format. Often it's a oneshot(or limited use) deal and BTW it must be cheap. Did I miss any? Likely only a few and they are so unique that a oneoff is the likely solution. Maybe I'm jaded but there are formats that while seemingly worth preserving they have libilities. For example, NS*, works well lots around but media is near extinct and when gone it will be gone for ever. Preseriving NS* media in NS* format has problems, at some point even if you can spit it out to a drive the media to go in it is a whole nother matter. Sort of leaves you with climate controlled space so the media literally doesn't fail solution. In the end I've worked to save software that can be used off media. For example I have NS*dos and like it but when the media dies what use is it as it's unusable with other controllers. Granted I could create a NSdos look alike that runs using soft sector or even sandisk. But what the point? Years ago I standardized on a limited subset of formats and media so I could preserve binaries and sources for use. Why? because back in the late 70s through early 80s the problem was none of the system could exchange anything even if the Cpu, OS and all were identical. I needed that like a hole in the head then and preserving it now strikes as useful but only to a point. In the end there was only one standard I had and still have, a serial line to another system. That was archive that worked for the last 25+ years. I'm sure I'll get flamed to the max but.. I'm not "facility" or "institution" I use the stuff and enjoy it as it's possible. Some of that is doing what I'd have liked to back then when time or money said I could not. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 13:52:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <200508031852.LAA12167@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Roger Merchberger" >> >>I see no reason VCF events should not also evolve. > >Well, if you're talking VCF explicitly, I think that would be up to Sellam, >Pat, Hans and other that actually put them on. Others are certainly >entitled to start their own venues and set their own rules. > >I can say one thing: If the VCF's evolve in the direction you're hinting >at, I'll bow out now, because I don't know if I'd have the same "intestinal >fortitude" Sellam has to get the ball rolling on a similar project, and the >"New and Improved" VCF would be no fun for me whatsoever. > Hi There was once a show in California called The West Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They had a really nice mix of large vendors and small companies. Some even just had exhibits without any specific sales ( they did advertise ). Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask a successful retailer what a loss leader is ). Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only use union riggers to move material from docks to displays. There was no way the little interesting exhibits could afford this. What the owners of the show didn't realize then was that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits. It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't get their company to pay one to go to. No one would want to go there just for hobby sake any more. Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember that it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should be enjoyable for all that go there. From my past experience, there are several changes I'd make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are interested in something, they should stop and talk to the exhibitor. The display should not distract from the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each once and see no reason to return ). Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not in the aisles that the public use. There should be a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF. I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize that some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several tables to display a few items. I have no problem with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used more to create interaction between exhibitors and visitors and not so much to create the one pass Tech Museum type exhibits. As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an issue. Just my thoughts Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 13:59:41 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) Message-ID: <200508031859.LAA12171@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Al Kossow" ---snip--- > >As companies stop using uP's, they toss the development equipment. >The iron shows up, but not the sw or manuals. > Hi As is the case with my Z80 ICE and the stand alone 6502 ICE machine. At least I do have the software for the Z80 ICE if I ever get around to getting my ISIS machine running( projects.....projects ). Dwight From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 3 14:01:51 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:01:51 +0100 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F103D3.7080202@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000501c5985d$d0016520$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Ok - I don't need to get dumped on anymore. Consider the idea > dropped... Please don't just drop the idea! The catweasel requires a handy PC (or Amiga or whatnot). There is definitely place for something self-contained that just gathers the data and makes it available via RS232 (or ethernet or whatever). For a start, it means I could carry it out to the garage and hook it up to the _heavy_ dual RX02 and read those WT78 floppies! (OK, so some has probably done those, but you get the idea). Give it some simple non-volatile storage (like a PCMCIA card etc.) and it would be quite simple to carry one off to someone else's place and archive stuff without having to drag a PC along. Antonio From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 15:47:10 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:47:10 -0500 Subject: VT220 with VT240? Message-ID: I was wondering: I read on vaxennet.com that you can somehow combine a VT220 and VT240 (see their description of the VT240). This doesn't make any sense to me as I figured you can only use one or the other, and that you plug a monitor/keyboard into the VT240, and a VT220 is not a monitor but a terminal. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks Julian From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 3 16:04:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:04:17 -0400 Subject: VT220 with VT240? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F13151.nail7Z21N8IGY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I read on vaxennet.com that you can somehow combine a VT220 and VT240 You'll have to be more specific about what they're claiming. The keyboards are compatible with each other. As are the power cords... Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 16:05:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:05:58 -0500 Subject: VT220 with VT240? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/3/05, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I read on vaxennet.com that you can somehow combine a VT220 and VT240 (see > their description of the VT240). This doesn't make any sense to me as I > figured you can only use one or the other, and that you plug a > monitor/keyboard into the VT240, and a VT220 is not a monitor but a > terminal. Huh? I visited their page and am completely perplexed. > Can anyone shed some light on this? They are on crack? I have more than one VT240 and VT220... they both use LK201 keyboards, but the interchangability ends there. The VT220 has an RS170 BNC for external video, and both 20mA and EIA ports to the outside (one at a time, not dual-session, naturally). I have successfully used the 20mA port on my PDP-8/L (via the standard W076 current-loop interface), but I did have some VT52 emulation problems on an -8/a running OS/8 and Teco with the VTEDIT.TEC macro. The VT240, as they say, can be used with either a VR201 for mono (VT240), or with a VR241 for color (VT241). One can also use a Barco or other monitor for color. The right cable has a DA15 on one end for the VT240 base, and 3 BNCs for RGB sync-on-green. I have no idea why they would say that you could combine a VT220 and a VT240/VT241. For the record, the two most common problems I've seen with the VT220 and VT240 are the power switch failing mechanically (Radio Shack used to sell a black plastic switch that fits perfectly, but looks kinda ugly), and the EIA receivers blowing out. These terminals use 9636 and 9637 pairs (8-pin DIPs), not 1488s and 1489s for level shifting. Unless you do a lot of DEC terminal repair, you probably don't have those in your tool box. Those two occasional problems aside, I do like the terminals. -ethan From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 16:07:22 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:07:22 -0500 Subject: VT220 with VT240? In-Reply-To: <42F13151.nail7Z21N8IGY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: More specifically, they describe the VT240 as: Digital DEC VT240 Terminal. Applications/Examples: This basically gives you color capabilities for your Digital DEC VAX applications when used with certain monitors including the VR241-A (combination called VT241). Also used with other DEC monitor like the VR201. Upgrades the VT220 to more advanced capabilities when combined with it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:04 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT220 with VT240? > I read on vaxennet.com that you can somehow combine a VT220 and VT240 You'll have to be more specific about what they're claiming. The keyboards are compatible with each other. As are the power cords... Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 3 16:07:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:07:33 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: References: <20050803014328.XSJZ11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <42F08D1D.nail27J11TALR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42F13215.nail80516EHBY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> [RX01] > I'm not saying "it will never work"... I was just curious if he had > any RX01s to verify proper functionality. Unfortunately, he does not. But an RX01 floppy is in every respect a IBM 3740 floppy. The most common floppy format in the world. (Well, discounting those PC-clone things.) Tim. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 16:23:19 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:23:19 -0500 Subject: VT220 with VT240? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahh. So they don't know what they're selling. That's to be expected, considering they're vax experts and all *rolls eyes* -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT220 with VT240? On 8/3/05, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I read on vaxennet.com that you can somehow combine a VT220 and VT240 (see > their description of the VT240). This doesn't make any sense to me as I > figured you can only use one or the other, and that you plug a > monitor/keyboard into the VT240, and a VT220 is not a monitor but a > terminal. Huh? I visited their page and am completely perplexed. > Can anyone shed some light on this? They are on crack? I have more than one VT240 and VT220... they both use LK201 keyboards, but the interchangability ends there. The VT220 has an RS170 BNC for external video, and both 20mA and EIA ports to the outside (one at a time, not dual-session, naturally). I have successfully used the 20mA port on my PDP-8/L (via the standard W076 current-loop interface), but I did have some VT52 emulation problems on an -8/a running OS/8 and Teco with the VTEDIT.TEC macro. The VT240, as they say, can be used with either a VR201 for mono (VT240), or with a VR241 for color (VT241). One can also use a Barco or other monitor for color. The right cable has a DA15 on one end for the VT240 base, and 3 BNCs for RGB sync-on-green. I have no idea why they would say that you could combine a VT220 and a VT240/VT241. For the record, the two most common problems I've seen with the VT220 and VT240 are the power switch failing mechanically (Radio Shack used to sell a black plastic switch that fits perfectly, but looks kinda ugly), and the EIA receivers blowing out. These terminals use 9636 and 9637 pairs (8-pin DIPs), not 1488s and 1489s for level shifting. Unless you do a lot of DEC terminal repair, you probably don't have those in your tool box. Those two occasional problems aside, I do like the terminals. -ethan From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 16:25:27 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Message-ID: <20050803212527.76619.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Is there a more interesting book on early computers? I doubt it. Who was it that was selling these here a while back? Send me a couple more copies please. Thanks! Steve. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 16:37:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050803141006.H75331@shell.lmi.net> > > IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a > professional musician). > I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered > the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. I don't have any of my notes handy, but IFF I remember correctly (y'all know what happens to unrefreshed dynamic RAM) The Ensoniq Mirage did NOT have mixed density, just mixed sector sizes. Plain ordinary MFM, with something on the order of 5 1024 byte sectors, and one 512 byte. (or maybe 9 512 bytes and one 256 byte)? I could READ, and I could WRITE, but I could not FORMAT using 765. Just set the parameters for 1024 byte and read or write the first 5 sectors. The FDC will ignore all sectors other than the ones that you specify. Then set the parameters for 512 bytes, and read or write sector 6. The FDC will ignore the others. IIRC, I had some very limited success reading and writing (NOT FORMATTING) mixed density, by doing a reset of the FDC in between switching density. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 16:47:17 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! In-Reply-To: <20050803133418.FYGD11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803133418.FYGD11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050803144236.F76164@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... > Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. > The different set of sector numbers didn't bother > ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head > ids which didn't match the physical head selection. Quite common :-( 765 insists on accurate sector headers; WD 179x can ignore the head # field in the sector headers. The Kaypro won't even mind reading/writing a disk, if you FORMAT it with a 765 using valid sector headers! > I can imagine that someone somewhere does weird things > with the Cylinder ids on a track as well ... Rare. I've only seen it a few times. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 16:50:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> <3.0.6.16.20050803081059.41a726e4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050803144948.J76164@shell.lmi.net> > >>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. > >>> > >>> Joe > > > >>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Joe R. wrote: > It's a surprise! Send money and find out :-) Does it have "boards and wires inside" like an Apple 1 ? From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 17:04:39 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:04:39 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <20050803220438.OTCE11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... >> Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. >> The different set of sector numbers didn't bother >> ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head >> ids which didn't match the physical head selection. > >Quite common :-( >765 insists on accurate sector headers; >WD 179x can ignore the head # field in the sector headers. >The Kaypro won't even mind reading/writing a disk, >if you FORMAT it with a 765 using valid sector headers! Actually, the 765 handles it fine ... my original software stored only the physical head indicator per track - now I can store a map of indicators for each sector, and it reads/formats/writes Kaypro (and Zorba which does the same thing) disks without issue. You do have to tell the 765 what "head" you are reading in the ID field, but fortunately you can do this imdependantly of the physical head select - I determine all the sector headers in the analysis phase, so I "know" which heads to request now... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 17:11:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <200508032211.PAA12236@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... >> Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. >> The different set of sector numbers didn't bother >> ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head >> ids which didn't match the physical head selection. > >Quite common :-( >765 insists on accurate sector headers; >WD 179x can ignore the head # field in the sector headers. >The Kaypro won't even mind reading/writing a disk, >if you FORMAT it with a 765 using valid sector headers! > > >> I can imagine that someone somewhere does weird things >> with the Cylinder ids on a track as well ... > >Rare. I've only seen it a few times. > Hi At least for Dave's setup, he could get by with a bypass switch on the head selector. It is always funny what different setups have done. At least there is a potential bypass for this one. I'd guess the fellow that wrote the driver for the Kaypro didn't have a problem so he didn't notice the missing head information in the sector header. He may have thought the controller took care of this somehow. I know when I've fiddled with the disk controller directly, it isn't always clear when and where each register takes effect. There are a few places that it seem that there is redundant information. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 17:20:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <200508032220.PAA12241@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >>From: "Fred Cisin" >> >>On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... >>> Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. >>> The different set of sector numbers didn't bother >>> ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head >>> ids which didn't match the physical head selection. >> >>Quite common :-( >>765 insists on accurate sector headers; >>WD 179x can ignore the head # field in the sector headers. >>The Kaypro won't even mind reading/writing a disk, >>if you FORMAT it with a 765 using valid sector headers! >> >> >>> I can imagine that someone somewhere does weird things >>> with the Cylinder ids on a track as well ... >> >>Rare. I've only seen it a few times. >> > >Hi > At least for Dave's setup, he could get by with >a bypass switch on the head selector. It is always >funny what different setups have done. At least there >is a potential bypass for this one. > I'd guess the fellow that wrote the driver for the >Kaypro didn't have a problem so he didn't notice the >missing head information in the sector header. He >may have thought the controller took care of this >somehow. I know when I've fiddled with the disk controller >directly, it isn't always clear when and where >each register takes effect. There are a few places >that it seem that there is redundant information. >Dwight > Hi I see from Dave's post that this was one of those redundant information I was talking about. I wonder if all the later PC controllers deal with these fields the same? Dwight From cbajpai at comcast.net Wed Aug 3 17:40:05 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:40:05 -0400 Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <20050803212527.76619.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508032249.j73MnZFD033510@keith.ezwind.net> It's a really fun book...I'd recommend it. It has a different perspective than many of the computer history books I have. I bought it a few years ago direct from the publisher. This is Stan Viet's site and it has excerpts from the book http://www.pc-history.org/ This is Stan's story on the Altair http://www.pldos.pl/bogus/hardware/komputery/mits/stanveit.htm -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Hi, Is there a more interesting book on early computers? I doubt it. Who was it that was selling these here a while back? Send me a couple more copies please. Thanks! Steve. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 17:47:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:47:24 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <0IKO00MIV4M6R289@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:04:39 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>> Tried ImageDisk on some Kaypro disks this morning... >>> Buggers recorded side1 as additional sectors of side0. >>> The different set of sector numbers didn't bother >>> ImageDisk, but it had a bit of a tantrum with the Head >>> ids which didn't match the physical head selection. >> >>Quite common :-( >>765 insists on accurate sector headers; >>WD 179x can ignore the head # field in the sector headers. >>The Kaypro won't even mind reading/writing a disk, >>if you FORMAT it with a 765 using valid sector headers! > >Actually, the 765 handles it fine ... my original software >stored only the physical head indicator per track - now I >can store a map of indicators for each sector, and it >reads/formats/writes Kaypro (and Zorba which does the same >thing) disks without issue. > >You do have to tell the 765 what "head" you are reading in >the ID field, but fortunately you can do this imdependantly >of the physical head select - I determine all the sector >headers in the analysis phase, so I "know" which heads to >request now... Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater (less than 255). My favorite format was sectors 1- 9 (512 DD) on side one and side two was 10-19 with H always set to 0. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 18:08:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! In-Reply-To: <0IKO00MIV4M6R289@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IKO00MIV4M6R289@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050803155704.O77781@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: > Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond > to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order > on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater > (less than 255). Which creates some complications with handling 128 byte sectors (R==0). > My favorite format was sectors 1- 9 (512 DD) on side one and > side two was 10-19 with H always set to 0. Easily handled by 765, but not by Int13h. I have to be careful to differentiate which complications are due to the FDC chip, which to the FDC board/implementation, and which are BIOS linitations. Nitpick: don't you mean 0 - 9 on first side? Or did it actually have 9 sectors on one side and 10 sectors on the other? I've seen disks with 10h and 20h in the H field. My favorite was 1 in the H field for the first side and 0 in the H field on the second side. And, of course, there are some formats, such as Superbrain, where the data (sector content) is inverted, but the headers (CHRN) are not. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 3 18:26:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <200508032326.QAA12255@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: >> Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond >> to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order >> on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater >> (less than 255). > >Which creates some complications with handling 128 byte sectors (R==0). > >> My favorite format was sectors 1- 9 (512 DD) on side one and >> side two was 10-19 with H always set to 0. > >Easily handled by 765, but not by Int13h. > >I have to be careful to differentiate which complications are >due to the FDC chip, which to the FDC board/implementation, >and which are BIOS linitations. > > >Nitpick: don't you mean 0 - 9 on first side? Or did it actually have 9 >sectors on one side and 10 sectors on the other? > >I've seen disks with 10h and 20h in the H field. > >My favorite was 1 in the H field for the first side and 0 in the H >field on the second side. > >And, of course, there are some formats, such as Superbrain, >where the data (sector content) is inverted, >but the headers (CHRN) are not. Hi How about the sector number being bit reversed but the data not ( my Nicolet 1080 ). Actually it is a record numbers, not sector but used in place of sector headers. When I was trying to figure out how to format the disk, this cause me a lot of grief. The only record I could get to work was 0. Dwight Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 3 19:16:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:16:50 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050803191650.3a97bb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't rermember exactly how to access it but the HP 7550 has a demo/test drawing in ROM. I don't remember the exact steps but you could access it through the menu system. Joe At 07:47 PM 8/3/05 +0200, you wrote: >I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. >But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT a system ? >Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and >right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. > >Anyone ? > >Stefan. > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 3 18:26:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 on VCM Message-ID: Someone listed an IMSAI 8080 on the VCM for the relatively reasonable price of $1,300: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=1973 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 3 18:41:52 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:41:52 -0500 Subject: Info needed on a Inex Message-ID: <018c01c59884$ee066a30$1c406b43@66067007> Someone contacted me about donating a Inex 4000 6800 microcomputer, vintage 1978 with lots of cool development software for it. Anyone here know anything about it and also a value for it? thanks John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 18:44:27 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803165611.JKOL11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050803160932.P77781@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > lots of other arguments snipped. > > Ok - I don't need to get dumped on anymore. Consider the idea dropped... Although there is substantial overlap, EVERYBODY has different goals or desires. No matter what you build, SOMEBODY will want MORE. "Why not include Z80/6502/6800/6809/68000 emulation, keyboard and video, and have it capable of RUNNING everything that it sees?" An external WD style disk controller sounds wonderful! Build YOUR device; and put me down for one! Once it is available, somebody else can be saddled with making an external flux transition unit. With IDE, serial, parallel, ethernet, SA400, AND USB interfaces! ... and software compatible with Catweasel AND COPYII-PC ... and 40 pin DIP plug to plug-in in place of stock FDC chip ... and PLCC? PGA? ... and enough RAM to hold multiple complete disk images ... and CF, SD, SM, etc. card memory ... and capability of operating stand-alone (without PC) ... and "drivers" to use as primary disk controller ... and software to interpret the file systems of every OS, ... and full selection of "deleted data" address marks for TRS-80 ... and software to defeat copy protection ... and damaged sector/track recovery ... and compatability to run on any/all classic platforms ... and Windoze NT/2k,XP compatability ... and software to have it look like a "normal" drive to Windoze ... and drive indexed off of spindle, instead of index hole ... and 1M data tranfer rate for 2.8M (IBM, Next) ... and floptical ... and capability of also handling ST506 hard drives ... MFM, RLL, ESDI, IDE, SASI, SCSI, . . . ... ZIP, LS120, Bernoulli, cartridge drive, tape drives, . . . Yeah, I want that! But in the meantime, I'd be very happy to see Dave's device. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 19:11:28 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! In-Reply-To: <200508032220.PAA12241@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508032220.PAA12241@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050803164825.A80464@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I see from Dave's post that this was one of those redundant > information I was talking about. I wonder if all the > later PC controllers deal with these fields the same? Pretty much so. (for compatibility reasons) Int 13h will handle the whole process, and introduce some major limitations. VERY oversimplified (apologies to Dave and Allison): It moves to the track (and head) of the sector that you specified. It sets up the DMA. It checks Int 1Eh for some parameters (gaps, bytes per sector, etc). It looks on the current track for a sector with the CHRN values specified. Because Int13h is using the cylinder, head, and sector number that you specified for BOTH seeking to track and selecting head, AND for the CHRN values looked for in the sector header, therefore, Int13h cannot handle sectors with "invalid" headers. That is the "redundancy". If you go below the BIOS, and talk directly to the hardware, those limitations disappear, since YOU seek to track, select head, and then look for any CHRN header you want. (CHRN == fields in sector header: Cylinder, Head, Record (sector) number, bytes per sector (128 * 2**N, or 128< I found these the other day and rescued them. I haven't checked the part numbers but I think they're for a Protocall Analyzer. Both appear to be in great shape. (1) HP 4955A Data Code Cartridge 04955-16003 (2) HP 18143A Training Tape 18143-16001. Anybody want them? Prefereable someone that can duplicate them and make them available to others. Joe PS these are the later style DC-100 tapes with the metal backplate and drive wheel. The drive band appears to be ok. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 18:23:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050802201126.04c80870@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 2, 5 08:35:43 pm Message-ID: > The largest, nicest, and I'd wager *costliest* booths didn't sell a thing. > Both Icom booths (yea, 2!), the Kenwood, Yaesu and Alinco booths had > absolutely nothing for sale. They were exhibitors and were there solely to > show off their equipment. I'd bet that they had to pay to get their > spaces... and a pretty penny, too! IIRC those companies sell amateur radio equipment. They may well not have been selling stuff _at_ the hamfest, but the reason they were there was to advertise their products and presumably with the expectation of some orders coming in later from people who'd been at the hamfest. If somebody exhibits at the VCF, then most likely their main exhibits are not for sale at the VCF, and they are not for sale afterwards either. I've been to sevearl HPCC 2-day conferences (these are the UK HP calculator conferences). There is an attendance fee, but this is reduced if you give a talk (or contribute to the conference in some other way). It's not free for anyone, but certainly the people who do something for the conference are not penalised. People are attracted to the VCF presumably to see the machines on show. To charge the exhibitiors (who are the ones to attract the public) and then not cheage the public for coming in sounds to be totally ridiculous to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 18:42:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:42:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <1123061197.27540.7.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 3, 5 09:26:37 am Message-ID: > Reason I ask is that I just had a look under Linux and it's possible (at > least with 2.6 kernels - no idea about earlier) to setup the FDC from > user-land via the fd floppy device. In other words, a Linux port might > be possible (for someone to do! :) assuming you're not doing anything > 'odd' with the FDC... I can confirm that as far back as 1.2.13 Kernels, you could do what you liked to the floppy controller using the FDRAWCMD ioctl(). The parameters to that were partly to set up the DMA controller (number of bytes to transfer, read/write, buffer area (which didn't need to be aligned on a page boundary), and partly to control the FDC chip (this set included an array of bytes to send to the FDC command register). I had no problems getting it to read HP 9114 floppy disks, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 18:46:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:46:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050803095805.MYQJ11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 3, 5 05:58:06 am Message-ID: > The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, > a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a > few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. > The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and > would properly interface to all drive types. Remeber that the WD chips are not still being made (are they?). I've thought about something similar. A single-board computer with a raw bitstream reader/writer (similar to a catweasel board, but not proprietary). Save the data on a CF card or similar (there's rather too much to send over an RS232 link in a sane time, and it would seem to be easier to interface a CF card to a classic computer than to add a USB port to a classic computer (this is important to me as I only have classic computers). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 18:51:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:51:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F0C111.2040405@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Aug 3, 5 08:05:21 am Message-ID: > Dave, why not just write software for a catweasel card? I realize that the > catweasel's FPGA has been programmed with a bitmap made from > closed-source RTL, > but is that a serious impedement? When the day comes that the It's a serious impedement for me. I am not going to waste $100 on a device that I can't maintain or repair. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 19:01:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 01:01:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> from "Stefan" at Aug 3, 5 07:47:10 pm Message-ID: > > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT a system ? > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and get it to plot it correctly?). If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually making proper contact? -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 3 19:56:23 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:56:23 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <200508031852.LAA12167@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > Hi > There was once a show in California called The West > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > specific sales ( they did advertise ). Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can you tell me more about how it was similar to and different from VCF East 1 or 2? I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding of VCF events. > Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First > I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it > sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be > a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask > a successful retailer what a loss leader is ). I think we all know what loss leaders are, they are products you carry in order to make more profits from the other products you carry. You carry a loss leader because if you don't, your customers will do their business with someone who does, and you will loose profits. Loss leaders are all about profit. > Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong > union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only > use union riggers to move material from docks to displays. > There was no way the little interesting exhibits could > afford this. Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here) > What the owners of the show didn't realize then was > that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits. > It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't > get their company to pay one to go to. No one would > want to go there just for hobby sake any more. I don't think anyone wants to see VCF's become like trade shows. That would be a disaster, no question. But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee? The cold equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal. Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show! But think about what we are collecting. Real vintage mini's and some microcomputers are historically very similar to antique steam and early gas engines. They are machines that made a huge impact on society, an impact at least as large as the first industrial revolution (brought on by those vintage engines). Another collectable from the first industrial revolution are vintage pocket watches. Once the engines moved workers from the fields to the factories, they needed to get them there on time and the mass production watch came to be. > Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember that > it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should > be enjoyable for all that go there. Have you ever seen a vintage engine show? Or a NAWCC show? How about a vintage car show? They are all very different from todays VCF event from what I've seen. Vintage computers are very historically important inventions. They need to be preserved because of their intrinsic value. Maybe most people today collect and restore these machines as a hobby. But thats also true for pocket watch collectors and even vintage engine collectors too. A minority of these collectors do this professionally. Hobby or not, at some point the financial value of our beloved machines will reflect their intrinsic value. This is already effecting our hobby. Its a fact of life, IMO. No one had ever suggested that the shows should be fun. Some have suggested that they could be even more fun. Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have a bad time. > From my past experience, there are several changes I'd > make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not > much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum > exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are > interested in something, they should stop and talk to > the exhibitor. The display should not distract from > the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen > at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such > empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in > San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each > once and see no reason to return ). Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to spread the hobby to others? Maybe your not much into museum exhibits, but didn't you say it should be enjoyable for all who attend? I think exhibits are needed that make vintage computing accessible to people. You should have heard some of the questions, and absolute wonder that came from some of the Sun programmers who had never seen a blinkinlights CPU before. I really should have had a canned presentation that explains how front panels are used, and how vintage systems were bootstrapped, etc. This simple technology has become totally forign to todays techies. So why not make this stuff accessible, even to non technical people who attend? Or am I missing your point here totally? Why restrict the exhibits? How does this make the show more enjoyable for all? > Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not > in the aisles that the public use. There should be > a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with > the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF. Good point. At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest. But I really did not see that as a problem. But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables, and there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits. Clearly thats better, space permitting of course. > I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize that > some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several > tables to display a few items. I have no problem > with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the > Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used > more to create interaction between exhibitors > and visitors and not so much to create the one pass > Tech Museum type exhibits. I think this is really up to the design of the exhibit, not the people running the show. In fact at VCF East 1.0 a PDP-12 was playing spacewar. This was set up as a free-standing, hands-on exhibit. > As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue > other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that > they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was > a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an > issue. > Just my thoughts > Dwight I totally agree with the last point, whatever arrangement is needed to 'go on with the show' is fine. People really should not be sup by this. Its always been clear to me during the registration process. From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 3 20:12:27 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:12:27 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200508040118.j741IPc2035225@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history after shutting down a couple of years ago.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Shannon Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > Hi > There was once a show in California called The West > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > specific sales ( they did advertise ). Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can you tell me more about how it was similar to and different from VCF East 1 or 2? I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding of VCF events. > Over the years, it did evolve and then died. First > I think it was that the fellow that originally ran it > sold it out. This meant that it was intended to be > a solid profit operation. No more loss leaders ( ask > a successful retailer what a loss leader is ). I think we all know what loss leaders are, they are products you carry in order to make more profits from the other products you carry. You carry a loss leader because if you don't, your customers will do their business with someone who does, and you will loose profits. Loss leaders are all about profit. > Another thing happened at about the same time. Strong > union forces in San Francisco force the shows to only > use union riggers to move material from docks to displays. > There was no way the little interesting exhibits could > afford this. Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here) > What the owners of the show didn't realize then was > that they should have subsidized the smaller exhibits. > It quickly because another trade show that one couldn't > get their company to pay one to go to. No one would > want to go there just for hobby sake any more. I don't think anyone wants to see VCF's become like trade shows. That would be a disaster, no question. But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee? The cold equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal. Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show! But think about what we are collecting. Real vintage mini's and some microcomputers are historically very similar to antique steam and early gas engines. They are machines that made a huge impact on society, an impact at least as large as the first industrial revolution (brought on by those vintage engines). Another collectable from the first industrial revolution are vintage pocket watches. Once the engines moved workers from the fields to the factories, they needed to get them there on time and the mass production watch came to be. > Let the Vintage Computer Fair evolve but remember that > it is intended to be a hobby related show. It should > be enjoyable for all that go there. Have you ever seen a vintage engine show? Or a NAWCC show? How about a vintage car show? They are all very different from todays VCF event from what I've seen. Vintage computers are very historically important inventions. They need to be preserved because of their intrinsic value. Maybe most people today collect and restore these machines as a hobby. But thats also true for pocket watch collectors and even vintage engine collectors too. A minority of these collectors do this professionally. Hobby or not, at some point the financial value of our beloved machines will reflect their intrinsic value. This is already effecting our hobby. Its a fact of life, IMO. No one had ever suggested that the shows should be fun. Some have suggested that they could be even more fun. Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have a bad time. > From my past experience, there are several changes I'd > make. First, I'd restrict the size of exhibits to not > much more than equipment size. I'm not much into museum > exhibits for these kinds of shows. If people are > interested in something, they should stop and talk to > the exhibitor. The display should not distract from > the machines and information ( despite trends I've seen > at the recent festivals ). If I was expecting such > empty presentations, I'd go to the Tech Museum in > San Jose or the Intel Museum ( I've only been to each > once and see no reason to return ). Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to spread the hobby to others? Maybe your not much into museum exhibits, but didn't you say it should be enjoyable for all who attend? I think exhibits are needed that make vintage computing accessible to people. You should have heard some of the questions, and absolute wonder that came from some of the Sun programmers who had never seen a blinkinlights CPU before. I really should have had a canned presentation that explains how front panels are used, and how vintage systems were bootstrapped, etc. This simple technology has become totally forign to todays techies. So why not make this stuff accessible, even to non technical people who attend? Or am I missing your point here totally? Why restrict the exhibits? How does this make the show more enjoyable for all? > Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not > in the aisles that the public use. There should be > a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with > the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF. Good point. At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest. But I really did not see that as a problem. But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables, and there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits. Clearly thats better, space permitting of course. > I realize that it is a space issue. I also realize that > some like the "crowd pleaser exhibits" that use several > tables to display a few items. I have no problem > with large exhibits like the analytical engine or the > Dec machine. I just feel that space should be used > more to create interaction between exhibitors > and visitors and not so much to create the one pass > Tech Museum type exhibits. I think this is really up to the design of the exhibit, not the people running the show. In fact at VCF East 1.0 a PDP-12 was playing spacewar. This was set up as a free-standing, hands-on exhibit. > As for collecting from exhibitors, I have no issue > other than making it clearer to the exhibitors that > they'll have to pay such fees. The first time it was > a surprise to me as well. The fee amount wasn't an > issue. > Just my thoughts > Dwight I totally agree with the last point, whatever arrangement is needed to 'go on with the show' is fine. People really should not be sup by this. Its always been clear to me during the registration process. From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Aug 3 20:11:44 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:11:44 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 on VCM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F16B50.1010809@jcwren.com> For $1300, I guess my thoughts of selling off my entire collection (IMSAI 8080 (2 Qume DataTrak-8's, 64K static, 8Mhz Z80, 4 port SIO, Tarbell DSDD controller, 256K RAM disk), 2 SOL-20's (one with dual 5.25" floppies), 3 Apples, 2 S-100 systems, 2 or so dozen assorted S-100 cards (including a Cromeco Dazzler), several ZX-80's, another dual 8" drive pair (type unremembered), some Commodore stuff, 3 daisy wheel printers w/ tractor feeds, several Apple II disk drives (6 maybe?), 150-200 8" diskettes, a metric butt-load of manuals, plus other assorted miscellanii) for $6000 isn't so unreasonable. There's also an Atair system of some sort (something like four 4 or 6 slot backplanes linked together, plus some Altair boards). About the only thing I intended to keep are my 5 Otrona Attaches. If anyone is actually interested in the complete lot (and I mean *complete*), feel free to email me. This would probably be for pickup in Atlanta, as shipping would be unreasonably high. --jc Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Someone listed an IMSAI 8080 on the VCM for the relatively reasonable >price of $1,300: > >http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=1973 > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 3 20:16:40 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:16:40 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: Message-ID: <002b01c59892$2c408440$0100a8c0@screamer> Sellam, I've enjoyed both VCF's I've attended, and if another it held in my area I'll gladly volunteer my time to help. Perhaps we could restore your Imlac at a show or something... While I have reservations about exhibiting again, I am not anti-VCF in any way, and I do support the shows. The differences between VCF east 1 and 2 were very clear. I did not mean to suggest that there is not a very clear evolution underway, or that the shows are not improving (overall). I'm sure these events are evolving and very clearly improving. 99% of what people have said here is intended to help that process. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:12 AM Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> I think future VCF events might want to look beyond emulating past >> events, >> and evolve. > > Hi Bob. > > Thanks for your comments. The VCF does evolve every year. It's gone from > an admittedly rinky-dink get together from VCF 1.0 in 1997 held at the > local county fairgrounds to the mostly smooth and slick event that is now > held yearly at the Computer History Museum, as well as the companion > events held worldwide throughout the year. I am always trying to come up > with new ways to entertain people and make the show fun and fresh for > visitors, exhibitors and attendees alike. > > The reality is that this is a low budget event with a relatively small fan > base. If I had the budget I'd hand out a bottle of wine and a personal > escort to every attendee, but it is what it is and I do the best I can > with the pathetic budget on which it is run. > >> But if people are going to move these large and valuable machines >> around, they need to know the power, receiving and unloading arangements >> well in advance. If perks are offered, they should be delivered. If >> awards are given, it should be clearly stated (in advance) how this is >> implemented, and if the process is formal (consistant) or random. > > I always make sure that we deliver what is promised and will continue to > do so. And I'll also make sure we improve communications so that > everyone's expectations are met or, ideally, exceeded. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 3 20:19:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:19:38 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <200508040118.j741IPc2035225@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002f01c59892$95eb7350$0100a8c0@screamer> Doh! >From the context I thought we were talking about a past series of vintage computer shows, not vintage shows of then current computers! Have there ever been any shows of vintage computer hardware other than the VCF events? ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:12 PM Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? >>>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. > > The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was > the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history > after shutting down a couple of years ago.) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire > > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Aug 3 20:25:09 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:25:09 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: Message-ID: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then producting a small run of calendars featuring the top winning exhibits? Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in advance) to the general public. Perhaps even publish a coffee table book with exceptional photography and some text on the restoration, historical context, or other info on each featured system. That would be a fun project to work on, and might even be a better way to grade different restorations as well. Some people would love to have the machines, but only have room for the book. Hopefully this could grease the wheels a little. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 3 20:26:45 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <20050804012645.8DF33182A61@bitsavers.org> > There was once a show in California called The West > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > specific sales ( they did advertise ). Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can you tell me more about how it was similar to and different from VCF East 1 or 2? -- I have the first WCCF proceedings on bitsavers under computerFaire This was run by Jim Warren (of Dr. Dobb's fame) Contemporary with the earliest Trenton shows. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 20:30:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:30:12 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <0IKO00G92C5HTZ92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:08:22 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: >> Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond >> to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order >> on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater >> (less than 255). > >Which creates some complications with handling 128 byte sectors (R==0). ???! The value for R must be a valid sector number. For floppies that is never zero. > >> My favorite format was sectors 1- 9 (512 DD) on side one and >> side two was 10-19 with H always set to 0. > >Easily handled by 765, but not by Int13h. ;-) Plays havoc with many systems not expecting it. >I have to be careful to differentiate which complications are >due to the FDC chip, which to the FDC board/implementation, >and which are BIOS linitations. Yep, The bios for the most part is a not a limiting factor if you program around it. Its the board implmentations or the chips that replace board implmentations that really are poor. >Nitpick: don't you mean 0 - 9 on first side? Or did it actually have 9 >sectors on one side and 10 sectors on the other? ;) That was why it was pretty wild. it was done for a joke in the lab but no one could sort it out. >I've seen disks with 10h and 20h in the H field. Yep, CHRN are supposed to carry Cylinder, Head, Record(sector) and N=data length. But the allowable values are usually 0 or 1 to 255. One engineer at Bell Labs used a 765 to make a nice block replaceable DC300 tape system. He used R and H to form a 16 bit block number. This was back in 1981 so it predates the PC based tape on floppy backup. >And, of course, there are some formats, such as Superbrain, >where the data (sector content) is inverted, >but the headers (CHRN) are not. that really bothered people for some reason. Allison From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 3 20:31:06 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:31:06 -0700 Subject: VCF Midwest update? References: <200508031852.LAA12167@clulw009.amd.com> <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <42F16FDA.E4B6EC6E@msm.umr.edu> Bob Shannon wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > > > Hi > > There was once a show in California called The West > > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > > specific sales ( they did advertise ). Back when all our crap was new, there was a show that may be this one held in San Mateo. I recall the Bill Godbout auctions for the extras from the factory, and all the vendors having exhibits, and stuff for sale. We all need time machines to go back to this show, stock up, and make a fortune on ebay, or be the best at VCF with perfect stuff from that show!. Several of us got tickets on Air California (now long gone, part of AA) and flew up for the Saturday. Biggest challenge was the guy who organize the trip was of the type who thought Rent a Wreck was too expensive. Got unlimited milage, gas included for $11 for the day. anyway I don't recall what it was called, maybe it was this one, or someone of the bay area people on the list will know what show that was. It would have been from 78 to 84 or so, there was no PC at all at the time we first went. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 20:34:14 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200508031852.LAA12167@clulw009.amd.com> <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050803180747.L82782@shell.lmi.net> > > There was once a show in California called The West > > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > > specific sales ( they did advertise ). > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can > you tell me more about how it was similar to and different > from VCF East 1 or 2? > I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding > of VCF events. West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e') was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren (think Intelligent Machines Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.) He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on roller skates. There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees, and staff. The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one) The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF) The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show) (exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees) The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I exhibited at) They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire" After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside the crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill. Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups. Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some Apple people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not exclusively Apple. After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold it in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex). Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped together. If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the show management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours. We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get caught using a wrench to tighten it. The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows started up. Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority. I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space without consultation with exhibitors. The show went under. A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates back on. > Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a > bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your > system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here) From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 3 21:02:16 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:02:16 -0400 Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050803180747.L82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200508040208.j742826E035687@keith.ezwind.net> Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too young for the original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went every year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final year). Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every hotel room in Vegas, had mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared 100,000 attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s. Working for PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous Spencer Katt parties. But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge the show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from intolerable to a breeze. Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? > > There was once a show in California called The West Coast Computer > > Fair. When it first started it was one of the most interesting shows > > I've ever been to. They had a really nice mix of large vendors and > > small companies. Some even just had exhibits without any specific > > sales ( they did advertise ). > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. Can you tell > me more about how it was similar to and different from VCF East 1 or > 2? > I really need to see a west coast show to get a better understanding > of VCF events. West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e') was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren (think Intelligent Machines Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.) He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on roller skates. There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees, and staff. The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one) The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF) The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show) (exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees) The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I exhibited at) They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire" After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside the crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill. Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups. Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some Apple people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not exclusively Apple. After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold it in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex). Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped together. If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the show management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours. We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get caught using a wrench to tighten it. The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows started up. Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority. I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space without consultation with exhibitors. The show went under. A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates back on. > Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a bunch of union > workers who may know nothing about your system moving it? (I'm > thinking mini's and larger stuff here) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Aug 3 21:02:06 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:02:06 -0700 Subject: CF & IDE adapter card for Apple IIs Message-ID: If one or two of you with a working board want to try one, I have some 6 GB CF dives I need tested. I'll send you one if you promise to send me back a report on how it worked, performance, problems, etc. Use this email: billy.pettit at wdc.com Billy On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 08:56 -0400, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > > > > n.php > > > > > > Great way to do instead of relying on aging floppies. > > > > > > Cheers, Wizard > > > > Interesting, anyone have any experience with this? > > Yes, works great. One of the coolest gadgets ever for the A2. Worked pretty good for me too. I've got one in a IIgs. If you read the forums however, he does warn that some CF cards are not compatible w/ the thing. I had good luck w/ some little 128Mb SanDisk CF cards. David From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 21:03:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508040118.j741IPc2035225@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508040118.j741IPc2035225@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050803183900.K82782@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was > the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history > after shutting down a couple of years ago.) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire WRONG! WRONG! AMATEUR, INACCURATE SOURCE. That says that Comdex was a renaming/transformation of WCCF. THAT IS FALSE. Comdex started independently of WCCF in about 1981? (first that I went to (NOT the first one, it was already bigger than NCC) was 1983), and for about 10 years they were in active competition, with both getting larger and larger, and then WCCF stopped growing, but Comdex continued to get bigger for a while. WCCF was a dim remnant of its former glory when Interface Group (Comdex) finally bought it and killed it. I may very well be misrecollecting McGraw Hill v Prentice Hall. But Shelley Adelson was NOT EITHER. He owned the Sands, and built the Bellagio. He owned Comdex, and had the power to prevent exhibitors from renting meeting rooms anywhere in town, or sometimes even suites, without going through him. One taxi driver in Vegas said, "the reason there's no mafia in town any more is cause they're scared of Adelson" :-) In 1988? there was a trivial news story about some Interface Group execs who went to a "gentlemen's club", bought the "special bottle of wine", and didn't get laid; the place burned down the next day. Also, the 8th WCCF (1983) was NOT the last one. Maybe the last GOOD one. It continued to about 13th! In 1986, I started to exhibit at Comdex, and for quite a few years was exhibiting at BOTH. BTW, I have some Comdex show directories if anybody collects them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 21:12:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! In-Reply-To: <0IKO00G92C5HTZ92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IKO00G92C5HTZ92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050803190557.X82782@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond > >> to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order > >> on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater > >> (less than 255). > > > >Which creates some complications with handling 128 byte sectors (R==0). Sorry, TYPO. I got sloppy and thought that you were saying the sector size value could not be 0 > ???! The value for R must be a valid sector number. For floppies > that is never zero. There are a lot of floppies with sector numbers starting with 0. 765 can read them and write them. > >Easily handled by 765, but not by Int13h. > ;-) Plays havoc with many systems not expecting it. Yes, there were always interesting quirks in disk formats! > that really bothered people for some reason. One more line of code. From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 3 21:17:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:17:41 -0400 Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050803183900.K82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200508040223.j742NOGt035870@keith.ezwind.net> Hmm... moral: never trust Wikipedia without doing your own homework! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? > >>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It > was the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer > history after shutting down a couple of years ago.) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire WRONG! WRONG! AMATEUR, INACCURATE SOURCE. That says that Comdex was a renaming/transformation of WCCF. THAT IS FALSE. Comdex started independently of WCCF in about 1981? (first that I went to (NOT the first one, it was already bigger than NCC) was 1983), and for about 10 years they were in active competition, with both getting larger and larger, and then WCCF stopped growing, but Comdex continued to get bigger for a while. WCCF was a dim remnant of its former glory when Interface Group (Comdex) finally bought it and killed it. I may very well be misrecollecting McGraw Hill v Prentice Hall. But Shelley Adelson was NOT EITHER. He owned the Sands, and built the Bellagio. He owned Comdex, and had the power to prevent exhibitors from renting meeting rooms anywhere in town, or sometimes even suites, without going through him. One taxi driver in Vegas said, "the reason there's no mafia in town any more is cause they're scared of Adelson" :-) In 1988? there was a trivial news story about some Interface Group execs who went to a "gentlemen's club", bought the "special bottle of wine", and didn't get laid; the place burned down the next day. Also, the 8th WCCF (1983) was NOT the last one. Maybe the last GOOD one. It continued to about 13th! In 1986, I started to exhibit at Comdex, and for quite a few years was exhibiting at BOTH. BTW, I have some Comdex show directories if anybody collects them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 21:17:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <42F16FDA.E4B6EC6E@msm.umr.edu> References: <200508031852.LAA12167@clulw009.amd.com> <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> <42F16FDA.E4B6EC6E@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050803191324.T82782@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > > > There was once a show in California called The West > > > Coast Computer Fair. When it first started it was one > > > of the most interesting shows I've ever been to. They > > > had a really nice mix of large vendors and small > > > companies. Some even just had exhibits without any > > > specific sales ( they did advertise ). > > Back when all our crap was new, there was a show that may > be this one held in San Mateo. I recall the Bill Godbout auctions > for the extras from the factory, and all the vendors having > exhibits, and stuff for sale. WCCF was never in San Mateo. Perhaps John Craig's Computer Swap (usually in San Jose) or Computer Swap America? There were at least 4 outfits that had swaps at San Mateo County Fairgrounds. My favorite was the time that Shugart showed up with a tractor trailer of "administrative returns", prototypes!, trade show samples, etc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 3 21:23:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508040208.j742826E035687@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508040208.j742826E035687@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too young for the > original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went every > year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final year). > Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every hotel room in Vegas, had > mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared 100,000 > attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s. Working for Comdex's peak size was in about 1989. By 1994, it was starting to shrink, but they kept inflating the published numbers. 2003 was the end. I attended from 1983 - 2002, and exhibited 1986 - 1992 > PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous Spencer Katt parties. > But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge the > show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from intolerable to > a breeze. > > Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing... It's too bad that you missed the years with parties in the UNLV stadium (Temptation, Mitch Rider, etc.) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 3 21:32:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:32:19 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <0IKO00GE4F10LYB5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:12:06 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: >> >> Dave, your on track. The CHRN vlaues do not have to corrospond >> >> to actual head or cylinder. They do not even have to be in order >> >> on the media! The only limits on them are R must be 1 or greater >> >> (less than 255). >> > >> >Which creates some complications with handling 128 byte sectors (R==0). > >Sorry, TYPO. I got sloppy and thought that you were saying the sector >size value could not be 0 > >> ???! The value for R must be a valid sector number. For floppies >> that is never zero. >There are a lot of floppies with sector numbers starting with 0. >765 can read them and write them. Maybe... there are caveats on that. Technically a sector number of 0 should not be used. Did a lot of work at "NEC" (US arm then was NEC Micromputers USA, then later NEC Electronics USA.) in the early years when they were developing and marketing that and a HDC. I was on the hardware/technical side. Allison From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 3 21:36:44 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:36:44 -0400 Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200508040242.j742gNIT036095@keith.ezwind.net> >>> hey kept inflating the published numbers. Interesting... I guess they lied. Of course, fun as Comdex was, it's no VCF! :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Conversely, I -- like many of you, probably -- was too young for the > original WCCF but attended Comdex during the dot-com heyday. I went > every year from 98-2003 (or maybe it was 2002, whichever was the final year). > Along with CES in January, Comdex filled up every hotel room in Vegas, > had mutliple hundreds (thousands?) of exhibitors, and probably neared > 100,000 attendees in its biggest years of the late 1990s/early 2000s. > Working for Comdex's peak size was in about 1989. By 1994, it was starting to shrink, but they kept inflating the published numbers. 2003 was the end. I attended from 1983 - 2002, and exhibited 1986 - 1992 > PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous Spencer Katt parties. > But in those last two or three years, we all joked that could gauge > the show's success by the size of the cab lines, which went from > intolerable to a breeze. > > Sorry for the OT, just reminiscing... It's too bad that you missed the years with parties in the UNLV stadium (Temptation, Mitch Rider, etc.) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 21:55:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:55:43 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <200508031027.01533.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <200508031027.01533.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050803215543.7fb53a45.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:27:01 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I know a lot of people that wouldn't build ANY hardware. Even more > people (like myself) would rather spend the money for a catweasel than > > try to find parts and build something that doesn't have the > functionality of a catweasel.... Do you think you'll get your WD chip > solution to read Apple ][ or C64 (1571-written) disks? I'm doubtful > at best. That's a huge volume of the disks I've got laying around and > > eventually want to make images of. I think the beauty of an open design is that you in particular don't have to be capable or motivated to build the hardware yourself, but there are multiple other people who are capable and (possibly) willing to build one for you. A 'closed' design lives and dies at the whim of the person who designed (and built) it. A publised 'open' design constructed with TTL gates could, for example, be constructed by someone who prefers CMOS or ECL (!) who is motivated to adapt the design. (I know, as a packrat with a huge junkbox, that when I see a logic circuit I want to build I always immediately begin adapting it to the TTL I happen to have on hand.) ----------- (stepping into a discussion where I am a latecomer, and don't mean to step on feet or exceed my expertise)- Isn't a disk controller really just a specialized logic state machine? When I studied the 1771 in tech school I remember it as being fairly rudimentary stuff, i.e. nothing that a general purpose Micro couldn't be coerced into doing. In fact, the whole reason for the dedicated controllers of the past was that when the whole system's 'brain' was just a Z80 or 6800 (or even just a 6502) processor, a hardwired 'dedicated peripheral controller' design was the only way to 'extend the machine' to do as complex a task as control a floppy drive. These days, we're not so resource-starved that the machine it's 'plugged into' only has a simple 8-bitter as it's sole CPU (i.e. the Z80 chip isn't a $75 item that the whole rest of the machine surrounds,) so it seems like if all the resources of a Z80, or a PIC, or similar processor were thrown at the task, with some additional generic (i.e TTL gates) hardware outboard, it could be a highly flexible controller. (pardon my processor bias in the above. plug in your favorite arch. as desired) From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 21:58:25 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:58:25 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <20050804025824.URDU11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>> ???! The value for R must be a valid sector number. For floppies >>> that is never zero. >>There are a lot of floppies with sector numbers starting with 0. >>765 can read them and write them. > >Maybe... there are caveats on that. Technically a sector number of 0 >should not be used. > >Did a lot of work at "NEC" (US arm then was NEC Micromputers USA, then later >NEC Electronics USA.) in the early years when they were developing and >marketing that and a HDC. I was on the hardware/technical side. When I designed the 765 based disk system in my D6809/CUBIX system, I "didn't know better" and numbered the sectors within a track from zero - this would have been early to mid 80's. Never changed it, as it has never caused a problem - versions of this system were built with both NEC and Intel (8272) controllers, and used for many years. ImageDisk reads and recreates CUBIX disks with no problems. I cannot find any information in the NEC data sheet which describes any restriction on the sector number (other than that it is one byte) - can you provide a reference to these caveats? this is the first I've heard of them. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 22:00:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:00:43 -0500 Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> References: <200508040208.j742826E035687@keith.ezwind.net> <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/3/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > Comdex's peak size was in about 1989. I never made it, but my stuff did... I wrote the demo for "Wordvision 64" for Bruce and James Publishers. It first appeared at the Fall 1982 Comdex. It showed once or twice more before the company folded. The demo was all there ever was for the C-64. They did sell the PC-DOS (1.0!) version, but the C-64 version was pure vapor. I always wanted to go, but Comdex was a long way from Ohio. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 3 22:15:00 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:15:00 -0400 Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:23:02 PDT." <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200508040315.j743F0vl016395@mwave.heeltoe.com> Fred Cisin wrote: ... >> PC Week/eWeek, I got to attend a few of the famous Spencer Katt parties. Huh. I always enjoyed Cringley's parties at Macworld. But then I never liked Las Vegas. Except for fly-away :-) gotta love a DC-3 prop in your face! -brad From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Aug 3 22:19:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:19:37 -0400 Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: <200508040208.j742826E035687@keith.ezwind.net> <20050803191908.H82782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42F18949.5050406@atarimuseum.com> Anybody have any good photo's from those days, I think its Jim's Computer Museum that had some up. I'm looking for any photo's of the Atari booth's at the shows. Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 8/3/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>Comdex's peak size was in about 1989. >> >> > >I never made it, but my stuff did... I wrote the demo for "Wordvision >64" for Bruce and James Publishers. It first appeared at the Fall >1982 Comdex. It showed once or twice more before the company folded. >The demo was all there ever was for the C-64. They did sell the >PC-DOS (1.0!) version, but the C-64 version was pure vapor. > >I always wanted to go, but Comdex was a long way from Ohio. > >-ethan > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 3 22:31:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:31:26 -0500 Subject: Development Systems (Was: Kenbak-1 on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <200508031859.LAA12171@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508031859.LAA12171@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050803223126.29306a0c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Al Kossow" > ---snip--- > > > >As companies stop using uP's, they toss the development equipment. > >The iron shows up, but not the sw or manuals. > > > > Hi > As is the case with my Z80 ICE and the stand alone > 6502 ICE machine. At least I do have the software for > the Z80 ICE if I ever get around to getting my ISIS > machine running( projects.....projects ). > Dwight > > Well, I got the entire package with my MDS 220 system. All the manuals, all the software including version update disks throughout development of whatever it was used for, even what appear to be most of the recipts. I hope to eventually use it for some 8051 development (there's even a box of spare bond-out 8051 chips for idiocy while breadboarding and blowing out the ICE). I even have a tube or two of (historically unobtanium) 8243 chips so my 'expanded mode' designs with the 8031 can 'pretend' to be a regular 8051 with masked ROM code. I got a bunch of 8032 chips just last month. . . . From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 4 07:14:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:14:22 -0400 Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! Message-ID: <0IKP008BM5YXD8S7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:58:25 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>>> ???! The value for R must be a valid sector number. For floppies >>>> that is never zero. >>>There are a lot of floppies with sector numbers starting with 0. >>>765 can read them and write them. >> >>Maybe... there are caveats on that. Technically a sector number of 0 >>should not be used. >> >>Did a lot of work at "NEC" (US arm then was NEC Micromputers USA, then later >>NEC Electronics USA.) in the early years when they were developing and >>marketing that and a HDC. I was on the hardware/technical side. > >When I designed the 765 based disk system in my D6809/CUBIX system, I "didn't >know better" and numbered the sectors within a track from zero - this would >have been early to mid 80's. > >Never changed it, as it has never caused a problem - versions of this system >were built with both NEC and Intel (8272) controllers, and used for many years. > >ImageDisk reads and recreates CUBIX disks with no problems. > >I cannot find any information in the NEC data sheet which describes any >restriction on the sector number (other than that it is one byte) - can you >provide a reference to these caveats? this is the first I've heard of them. Yes, NEC never guarenteed that it would work or continue to work. There were a few chips used in PCs (Not fully 765 compatable) that were questionable around this. I also tried it and found it worked. However IBM 3740 and later Floppy specs had reasons for not using 0th sector. As they say by spec it's wrong otherwise it works. Allison From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Aug 4 08:24:26 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 01:24:26 +1200 Subject: Canon A200 References: <3.0.6.16.20050803203133.1897a714@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1f4501c598f7$d6664da0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Anyone know the details of this - supposedly an early IBM pc compatible? DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 2/08/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 4 08:56:01 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:56:01 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <42F21E71.2050702@atarimuseum.com> Bob... THAT would be a very cool idea! I for one would love such an item Curt Bob Shannon wrote: > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then > producting a small run of calendars featuring the top winning exhibits? > > Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in advance) > to the general public. > > Perhaps even publish a coffee table book with exceptional photography > and some text on the restoration, historical context, or other info on > each > featured system. > > That would be a fun project to work on, and might even be a better way > to grade different restorations as well. > > Some people would love to have the machines, but only have room for the > book. Hopefully this could grease the wheels a little. > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 8/3/2005 From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 4 09:44:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:44:30 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> Hi Guys, I have posted the update to ImageDisk which allows it to work with Head/Cylinder values on a per-sector basis if needed. I have also posted a number of additional ImageDisk format system disk archives. I have also added a new page which describes how I constructed the adapter for the 8" drive, and the cabling system I use to allow the external drive to be easily removable and to co-exist with an A: internal drive. I have provided photos of the various constructions as well as descriptive text. There is link to my "Connecting 8" and external drives" page near the bottom of my "disks/software images" page, which is accessable via a link near the bottom of my main page. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 4 09:56:41 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:56:41 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: I have also added a new page which describes how I constructed the adapter for the 8" drive, and the cabling system I use to allow the external drive to be easily removable and to co-exist with an A: internal drive. I have provided photos of the various constructions as well as descriptive text. -- Will you be releasing a description of the "IMD" container file format? From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Aug 4 10:22:53 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:22:53 +0200 Subject: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the Electrologica X1 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804172212.02e87608@pop.xs4all.nl> Thought this might be a nice read for some of you : http://repos.project.cwi.nl:8080/nl/repository_db/all_publications/4155/ ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Aug 4 10:25:37 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:25:37 +0200 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804172407.02e8bc18@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Tony, I haven't hooked it up to any system because I dont have any system to hook it up to. That is sort of my second question; if I would buy a modern PCI GPIB card would I be able to make it work with the 7580A or other similar devices ? Stefan. At 02:01 4-8-2005, you wrote: > > > > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. > > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT a system ? > > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and > > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. > >Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer >interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and >get it to plot it correctly?). > >If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually >making proper contact? > >-tony ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 4 10:34:04 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:34:04 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: <200508041534.j74FY3r4030967@mail3.magma.ca> >>I have also added a new page which describes how I constructed >>the adapter for the 8" drive, and the cabling system I use to >>allow the external drive to be easily removable and to co-exist >>with an A: internal drive. I have provided photos of the various >>constructions as well as descriptive text. > >-- > >Will you be releasing a description of the "IMD" container file >format? This is "already released" - ImageDisks online help contains a description of the Image File Format. At some point in the process I will produce formal documentation for the program and related material (including the image file format), however everything you need is in the help. Dave PS: I just updated the "connecting 8" and external drives" page to include some notes on Termination which I had omitted from the original posting. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Aug 4 10:38:44 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:38:44 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. In-Reply-To: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> References: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <42F23684.6080608@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I have posted the update to ImageDisk which allows it to work > with Head/Cylinder values on a per-sector basis if needed. > I have also posted a number of additional ImageDisk format > system disk archives. Dave, from my quick read of your description of the IMD format, there is meta information that I think would be valuable to store. When a disk is imaged, the captured file should indicate which tracks/sectors had problems being read. That would allow automated merging of two different attempts to capture a given disk (I haven't used your merge program, but my understanding was that one had to manually specify which tracks to take from each image. Futher, when archiving one often is processing a large batch of disks. Keeping track of the problematic sectors manually and making sure that information is associated with the disk is challenging. Some months later when going back to a pile of disk images, it would be nice to know which sectors are suspect. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 4 11:01:10 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:01:10 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: <200508041601.j74G19ud001558@mail4.magma.ca> At 10:38 AM 8/4/05 -0500, you wrote: >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> I have posted the update to ImageDisk which allows it to work >> with Head/Cylinder values on a per-sector basis if needed. >> I have also posted a number of additional ImageDisk format >> system disk archives. > >Dave, from my quick read of your description of the IMD format, there is meta >information that I think would be valuable to store. When a disk is imaged, the >captured file should indicate which tracks/sectors had problems being read. >That would allow automated merging of two different attempts to capture a given >disk (I haven't used your merge program, but my understanding was that one had >to manually specify which tracks to take from each image. Futher, when >archiving one often is processing a large batch of disks. Keeping track of the >problematic sectors manually and making sure that information is associated with >the disk is challenging. Some months later when going back to a pile of disk >images, it would be nice to know which sectors are suspect. Jim, I *DO* keep track of which sectors could not be read. If you look at the SECTOR DATA RECORD, you will see that it consists basically of a flag byte followed by the sector data. The flag bytes are: 00 = Sector unavailable (no data follows) This means that the sector could not be read from the original master. 01 = Normal sector data (sector-size data bytes follow) Self explainatory. 02 = Compressed sector data (1 byte follows) This means that the entire sector was read and found to have all bytes containing the same data value - IMD will automatically expand this sector-size occuranges of the data value - it's primary purpose is to reduce the storage required by unused areas of the disk. My analyze/merge utility will automatically extract 01 or 02 sectors from one image to fill in 00 "holes" in another. It will also warn you if 01 or 02 sectors occuring on both disks don't logically match (in which case you probably shouldn't be merging them). At this time I DO NOT keep track of the occurance of soft/recoverable read errors. In my experience these have more to do with the particular PC/FDC/DRIVE combinarion and/or individual disk condition, and I do not believe the added complexity/size of collecting and recording such details will be worth it... ImageDisk will display sector read errors, and unavailable sectors as it records the disk, and analyze/merge will display a summary of the Unavilable, NormalData and Compressed sectors occuring within an image, as well as a detailed track by track summary if requested. For me this gives me pretty much everything I can actually make use of. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 12:05:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <20050803212527.76619.qmail@web34104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, steven stengel wrote: > Is there a more interesting book on early computers? I > doubt it. Yes. Fire in the Valley. Stan's book is good reading but it contains some factual errors and overall is not that well written (everyone's a critic, eh?) Of course, there is a whole library of books to choose from: http://www.vintage.org/library.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Mon Aug 1 23:23:20 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:23:20 -0500 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200508020433.j724XVtP010036@keith.ezwind.net> 15 years ago or so I parted out a IV/Phase IV/60 minicomputer. I had to reduce space, so I kept all the interesting stuff and threw out the sheet metal, plastic, foam, etc. & kept the motors, boards, sensors, etc. Four Phase mostly OEMed peripherals, as did most mini manufacturers. As a result of this I have parts for about 6 of these (I think), Diablo model 30 high density (512B sect) drives, which on DEC I think would be an RK03. It was a 2.5 MB removable cartridge disk with a stepping motor for the head positioning. I can take pictures if this is not sufficient. These were used by almost every mini manufacturer. I also parted out at least two CDC 9762's. They are an 80 MB (unformatted) 6 platter removable cartridge drive. I have the motors, fans, heads, etc. These too were used by many vendors. Anybody needing such stuff please let me know. I would be happy to swap for whatever interesting surplus you might have. TIA, Gil From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 2 00:30:02 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 01:30:02 -0400 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802051446.89596.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508020535.j725ZgUg010529@keith.ezwind.net> Doh! I thought you meant... Well who knows, I'm clearly losing track of the auctions. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Kenbak-1 on Ebay --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Instead, BM meant our friend Dennis Komisky again. > Dennis, please, check in > with us here on cctalk!! No, no, no! Not Dennis. This was "collectrhc". Here's the ersataz "Apple-1" auction I was referring to: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 --Bill From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 2 11:00:07 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:00:07 -0400 Subject: PC<>PC File transfer (was classiccmp knowledgebase) Message-ID: <01C59759.E2EE9FE0@H67.C223.tor.velocet.net> --------------Original Message(s): Message: 13 Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:53:39 -0500 From: John Foust Subject: Re: classiccmp knowledgebase To: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050801105059.050c6d98 at mail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:54 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote: >Wouldn't it be easier to just issue two MODE commands to redirect COM1: to CON, then feed debug a script to write out binary files? Hey, that's why I think it would be a useful and interesting FAQ. I thought the other guy's CTRL/Z preservation method was quite cute, too. I'm intrigued by solutions that would require a minimum of prep or magic tools on the sending PC. - John ----------------Reply: Assuming the server is also running DOS, it seems to me the least prep or magic would be to use Interlnk/Intersvr, included in MS-DOS since around version 5. It can use serial or parallel ports, redirect remote drives and printers, and can do a remote install if the receiving computer doesn't have a copy of Interlnk. Needs a null modem serial cable of course, or a LapLink type of Parallel cable or adapter. Same as LapLink; not as fancy, but free. Check out the help files for Interlnk & Intersvr. Didn't we just have a lengthy discussion about this a while ago? mike From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Tue Aug 2 15:23:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:23:17 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508022032.j72KWm9f019106@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:56 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Analog modem emulator? > > > > > I have seen something like that. It essentially simulates a > telephone > > network. ... > > I am surprised, but I have never seen a published schematic > for such a unit, neither in a magaxine or on the web. They > can't be _that_ complicated, surely? > > -tony I think because there are several different options on things like ring detection - current loop vs. wink start, IIRC. Plus you might want to check out the various dialing options, etc. If you were in the business of making (or maybe servicing) modems you wanted to be able to simulate all possible situations. If you are only trying to make a connection between two boxes in some specific situation you would be correct. Gil From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Aug 3 03:34:00 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:34:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: ImageDisk and some 8' images posted In-Reply-To: References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <35545.195.212.29.83.1123058040.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > On 8/2/05, Fred Cisin wrote: >> IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. > > Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a > professional musician). > > I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered > the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. There are two programs called "mwrite" and "mread" that write and read Mirage disk images. In theory they could do SQ80 images too, if you could modify them to read and write both sides. The disk format is a little odd - read about it here: http://www.youngmonkey.ca/nose/audio_tech/synth/Ensoniq-Mirage_DiskFormat.html Basically sectors 0-4 are 1024 bytes long, and sector 5 is 512 bytes. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Aug 3 06:24:56 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:24:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: ImageDisk and some 8' images posted In-Reply-To: <20050803095802.MYPX11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050803095802.MYPX11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <14198.195.212.29.67.1123068296.squirrel@195.212.29.67> >>> IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. >> >>Hey... I have one of those - it used to belong to my mother (she was a >>professional musician). >> >>I'd love to have a way to image disks for it. I think I remembered >>the disks were wierd, but not how they were wierd. > > Unfortunately it's looking like mixed sector sizes within one track are > not within the capabilities of the 765 to write - although I could > probably > READ them OK (and with a documented image file format, you would at least > have access to the data so you could try to find some other way to > recreate > the disks if you had to). I sent a message to the list, but it seems to have done its usual "don't-post-until-sometime-next-month" thing that only seems to happen with this list. There are two programs, MREAD and MWRITE, that run under DOS and allow you to read and write Mirage disk images. Presumably if they were modified to read and write double-sided disks, they'd work with SQ80 disks too. The disk format is here: http://www.youngmonkey.ca/nose/audio_tech/synth/Ensoniq-Mirage_DiskFormat.html It's a bit odd - sectors 0 to 4 are 1024 bytes, sector 5 is 512 bytes. It would be really good to have a modern replacement for the MREAD and MWRITE utilities. It's a hassle booting up DOS every time I want to transfer stuff... Gordon. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 3 06:46:16 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 04:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New arrivals - NEC APC & Xerox 16/8 Message-ID: <20050803114616.80301.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> it might be a misnomer to designate the NEC APC as the only DOS computer to have built in 8" disk drives - although probably true - since others had external disks as standard options. I've just obtained one, along with external 5 1/4" drives to boot (no pun intended). As a matter of fact, I want to figure out just how to get it to boot off the 5.25's. Were there cards for an IBM PC or 100% compatible that interfaced to an external 8" floppy drive? The Xerox had 8" drives as options I've learned, but mine only has a built in 5 1/4. Actually, the expansion unit, which looks like the "cpu" has the drive, and a seemingly flakey hard drive. The O/S and development disks imaged fine, but other junk, Wordstar etc., didn't :(. I have a job on my hands figuring out how I'm going to hopefully archive the APC disks - 10 boxes of them - which is why I'd like to boot the thing off the 5 1/4's. Any suggestions? Anyone with software for these 2 beasts? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Aug 3 09:08:09 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:08:09 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wasn't able to stay for the end....which exhibits won the balloting? -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Aug 3 09:17:59 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:17:59 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With all of the complaints being offered, I wanted to say that I enjoyed VCF Midwest! My heartfelt appreciation to Pat and the folks who put it on. I've been envious for years about the VCF events on both coasts and in Europe but I haven't been able to travel to any of them. It was fantastic to have one in the midwest. While everything may not have gone off as planned, it is very hard work to put on any kind of event, so I prefer to look at how much went well..especially for the first event in the midwest! The speakers were great..some wonderful stories. The exhibits were fantastic. It was great to be able to talk to some of the people from this list and be able to put a face to the email. It was great to be able to pick up a couple of new toys to play with (and the prices were fantastically affordable)! I hope this was the first of many midwest vintage computer events! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Aug 3 10:17:12 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:17:12 -0400 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: References: <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050803111641.0338af20@boff-net.dhs.org> Vintage 60's-80's porn of chicks posing with computers? hehehe. -John Boffemmyer IV At 10:32 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote: >Chad Fernandez wrote: >>Joe R. wrote: >>>Glen, >>> >>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. >>> >>> Joe > >>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) > >I don't know, but the downside is that he seems to want payment first :^) > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 From Patrick.McMichael at Avnet.com Wed Aug 3 16:15:59 2005 From: Patrick.McMichael at Avnet.com (McMichael, Patrick) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:15:59 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E and PDP 11/23 Message-ID: <1FE926B6023F9C489B9B4EF2410E98F1017BB769@USCHD00MX10USR> Ashley I want to find the RSTE product Manager from DEC do you know who I can contact? Pat From Patrick.McMichael at Avnet.com Wed Aug 3 16:23:11 2005 From: Patrick.McMichael at Avnet.com (McMichael, Patrick) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:23:11 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E software Message-ID: <1FE926B6023F9C489B9B4EF2410E98F1017BB774@USCHD00MX10USR> Paul Hi long time ago in DEC I had a friend who was the RSTE product manager left sometime in 80's and works for Bally's Gaming Systems can't recall his name but he authored RSTE and I am sure his first name was Dave but he was on of the original RSTE engineers in DEC Have any history on or source code for RSTE laying around a we used to add our names to the code we wrote Thanks Ex DECie 1979-1999 Pat McMichael Account Manager Avnet Enterprise Solutions 5114 Brandywine Drive Eagleville PA 19403 email: patrick.mcmichael at avnet.com phone: (610) 203-9829 fax: (480) 794-9765 www.es.avnet.com Cisco IP Communications Partner of the Year - 2004 <> From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Wed Aug 3 21:07:39 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:07:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050803180747.L82782@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 03, 2005 06:34:14 PM Message-ID: <200508040207.j7427dqF002391@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Off by about 20 years there. ;) 1977. Marty > >West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e') >was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren >(think Intelligent Machines Journal, Dr. Dobbs, etc.) >He's a big guy, and rolled around the shows on roller skates. >There was no significant differentiation between exhibitors, attendees, >and staff. > >The 1st one was San Francisco? (I missed that one) > >The 2nd one was in San Jose (and resembled VCF) > >The 3rd one was in Anaheim (and started to look like a trade show) >(exhibitors and staff started being differentiated from attendees) > >The 4th one was in Brooks Hall and Civic Auditorium (SF) (1st one I >exhibited at) > >They also started a spinoff show of "PC Faire" > >After a bunch of years in Brooks/Civic, filling the whole place, including >selling booth space in the balcony of Civic, and in the hallway outside >the crappers, Jim sold the show to McGraw Hill. >Exhibitors, attendees, and staff became three separate groups. > >Apple objected to the number of non-Apple booths and pulled out. Some >Apple people insist on calling the WCCF "PC Faire", because it was not >exclusively Apple. > >After McGraw Hill mismanaged it for a few years, including trying to hold >it in Moscone Hall, they sold the show to Interface Group (Comdex). >Staff became a separate entity, with exhibitors and attendees lumped >together. >If you wanted carpet in your booth, you had to either rent it from the >show management for $75 for the weekend, or pay them $75 to unroll yours. >We had one nut that wasn't a wing-nut in our booth - it cost us $70 to get >caught using a wrench to tighten it. > >The show got smaller, and almost as expensive as Comdex; exhibitors became >disgruntled. Some Apple people boycotted the show, and Apple ONLY shows >started up. > >Show management stopped respecting seniority for booth selection priority. >I was tied for #1 on booth selection priority, and had a 10 x 10 corner >booth, when they rearranged the floorplan and reassigned all of the space >without consultation with exhibitors. > >The show went under. > > >A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates >back on. > > >> Wow, that sure would kill the shows. Who would want a >> bunch of union workers who may know nothing about your >> system moving it? (I'm thinking mini's and larger stuff here) > From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Wed Aug 3 21:24:17 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <002f01c59892$95eb7350$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 03, 2005 09:19:38 PM Message-ID: <200508040224.j742OIWk030604@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Yes, we've been building up the vintage computer section of the MGC every year for the past 4 years (and I've also asked list members to partake, as well as ask to have us host the Midwest VCF). The show is for vintage to present, and covers computers, pins/em's, video coin-ops, and home video game consoles. We had 1300 in attendance over the two days last year, and took this year off to deal with the growth and plan for even more growth next year. Consequently, we'll be back in 2006 (June 3rd and 4th) and moving the show to an actual resort to make it an entire weekend "destination" event (perfect for those of us with families, etc.) Roughly 20,500 square feet to work with. Olympia, Wisconsin - about 30-45 minutes outside of Milwaukee. Marty > >Doh! > >>From the context I thought we were talking about a past series >of vintage computer shows, not vintage shows of then current >computers! > >Have there ever been any shows of vintage computer hardware >other than the VCF events? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" >To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:12 PM >Subject: RE: VCF Midwest update? > > >>>>> Interesting, I've never heard of this show before now. >> >> The West Coast Computer Faire is a real part of computer history! It was >> the predecessor to Comdex (LOL, which is also now part of computer history >> after shutting down a couple of years ago.) >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Computer_Faire >> >> > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 4 01:32:45 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> there are a few contraptions out there by which you can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64, presumably an IDE drive too. Try ide64.org for starters. There was another one on Epay recently, which I think used an MMC/SD card. The notion of adding such a device to an old puter has intrigued me also. Old RLL/MFM drives are a waste of time IMHO, and new IDE drives probably won't work, provided you even had an IDE interface (they do exist for XT class machines, but most of mine have proprietary buses). I know this is a broad question, but to what degree can an FPGA take the place of early custom ic's? Say for instance you wanted to replace the video ic like a NEC uPD7220 and couldn't find a replacement, or the custom video or sound ic in a Mindset or Atari ST. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > The idea is to make a small single-board computer > with a microcontroller, > > a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough > memory to buffer a > > few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for > communication with the PC. > > The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" > drives and 8" drives, and > > would properly interface to all drive types. > > Remeber that the WD chips are not still being made > (are they?). > > I've thought about something similar. A single-board > computer with a raw > bitstream reader/writer (similar to a catweasel > board, but not > proprietary). Save the data on a CF card or similar > (there's rather too > much to send over an RS232 link in a sane time, and > it would seem to be > easier to interface a CF card to a classic computer > than to add a USB > port to a classic computer (this is important to me > as I only have > classic computers). > > -tony > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 4 12:14:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? Message-ID: <200508041714.KAA12689@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" ---snip--- > >The show went under. > > >A number of times, we told Jim Warren that it was time to put the skates >back on. > > Hi I recall driving up to Jim's place off of Sky Line Blvd to buy tickets. He had the most enjoyable place to work that I've ever seen. Dwight From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Aug 4 12:15:47 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:15:47 -0400 Subject: S100 serial card problems redux Message-ID: All: As posted previously, I've been having problems getting a Solid State Music card to work with my Altair. The background is that I want to get Microsoft BASIC running on it but the working serial card (a VG Bit Streamer card) cannot be configured to work with BASIC without patching BASIC. So, I've spent the last two weeks performing various tests. Here are the results: Working: 8800b with Vector Graphics Bit Streamer single serial I/O card. 8251 based. Using modified Turnkey Monitor program with actual I/O routines from the sample c5ode from VG manual. Non-working: same system but using a Solid State Music serial card which is based on the AY-3-1015 (or equivalent) UAR/T. No working sample code provided in the manual but configuration instructions for status bit location and polarity is easily followed (a few jumpers and swapping an LS368 for an LS367). So I created three test cases, two that are considered "Altair Revision 1" compatible by the manual and one that makes the AY3-1015 look like an 8251. I also wrote a serial loopback program to echo characters back. None of these cases work. Now here's what I noticed last night. When running the Bit Streamer card (the working configuration), the INP light is illuminated on the front panel. OK, makes sense. In the non-working configurations, the INP light is dark. So, I single-stepped the code and the right 8080 opcode is being executed. Based on this one would have to say that something's wrong with the SSM card on the input side, except for the fact that I thought that the INP status was generated by the CPU. To further complicate things, sending random characters to the serial port from the computer works -- I get characters on the screen. Any thoughts? Rich From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Aug 4 12:35:06 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:35:06 +0100 Subject: PC<>PC File transfer (was classiccmp knowledgebase) In-Reply-To: <01C59759.E2EE9FE0@H67.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: <002101c5991a$dc59cfc0$5d00a8c0@gamemachine> If anybody remembers the old versions of laplink where they told you to issue a mode command etc to redirect com1 Iirc you can use that to install any file onto the pc you just had to give it the filename as an option ymmv Regards and 73 Charles - 2E0GOM ARICC UK Co-Ordinator - http://www.aricc.org Kirklees RAYNET - http://www.kirkleesraynet.org.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: M H Stein [mailto:dm561 at torfree.net] > Sent: 02 August 2005 17:00 > To: 'cctech at classiccmp.org' > Subject: PC<>PC File transfer (was classiccmp knowledgebase) > > > --------------Original Message(s): > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:53:39 -0500 > From: John Foust > Subject: Re: classiccmp knowledgebase > To: > Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050801105059.050c6d98 at mail> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 01:54 AM 8/1/2005, you wrote: > >Wouldn't it be easier to just issue two MODE commands to > redirect COM1: > >to CON, then feed debug a script to write out binary files? > > Hey, that's why I think it would be a useful and interesting > FAQ. I thought the other guy's CTRL/Z preservation method was > quite cute, too. I'm intrigued by solutions that would require a > minimum of prep or magic tools on the sending PC. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 02/08/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 12:28:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <002301c5988f$5684b490$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > But does anyone really need to subsidize a $10 fee? The cold > equations suggest that at $10, you already got a good deal. > > Some exhibits might eat that just in power over a 2 day show! For the record, the costs of the VCF exhibit area break down as follows (in no particular order): 1) Venue cost 2) Power 3) Exhibit infrastructure (setup) 4) Awards, prizes, exhibitor badges, tags, etc. The exhibitor fee also gives you full admission for both days of the event and, with most VCFs where the budget allows, a VCF t-shirt. I try to make it fair for everyone: fair to the exhibitors by giving them stuff in return for their exhibit fee and fair to me to help defray the costs of putting on the event. > No one had ever suggested that the shows should be fun. > Some have suggested that they could be even more fun. > > Clearly people that go to a classic car show don't go there to have > a bad time. If the VCF isn't fun then there's no point to it. I certainly put in a lot of time and effort into it for the nominal bit of fun I have with it (it would be more fun if I didn't have to manage everything so closely). I certainly don't do it for the minimal profit I make, and if you count the loss on the first three events I think I've just about broken even by now. The money made certainly isn't commensurate with the time I put in. > Isn't a big part of the reason for VCF events to spread the hobby to > others? Maybe your not much into museum exhibits, but didn't you say it > should be enjoyable for all who attend? Right, it's not JUST for hobbyists. It has to be enjoyable for the VISITORS as well. Otherwise, it would just be a big room filled with geeks. Not fun at all. > > Exhibitors should have a place to sit that is not > > in the aisles that the public use. There should be > > a place for the public to stop, sit and chat with > > the exhibitors. This was really clumsy at the last VCF. > > Good point. > > At VCF East 1.0, exhibitors were mixed with the rest. > But I really did not see that as a problem. Space constraints. The sellers were segregated in one section (the consignment section had to be where it was for logistical reasons). But with a room that small (something like 50x30) everything is mashed together anyway no matter how you try to arrange it. > But at VCF Ease 2.0, we had space behind the tables, and > there was even room to place chairs in front of consoles so > that people could sit and actually use some of the exhibits. > > Clearly thats better, space permitting of course. Exhibitors generally sit in front of their exhibits because that's the way the exhibit layout usually has to work in order to make it fit into the space. I think it also has the side effect of making for better interaction between exhibitors and visitors. If anyone has any comments about this then please send them to me. In fact, I'm always open to comments, suggestions, complaints, criticism, etc. Please do give me feedback or else I'll keep doing the same crap over and over again, because as far as I know I'm doing everything right. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Aug 4 13:05:27 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:05:27 +0200 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. In-Reply-To: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> References: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804200514.02e8b500@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Ehmm what is the ImageDisk Site ? At 16:44 4-8-2005, you wrote: >Hi Guys, > >I have posted the update to ImageDisk which allows it to work >with Head/Cylinder values on a per-sector basis if needed. >I have also posted a number of additional ImageDisk format >system disk archives. > >I have also added a new page which describes how I constructed >the adapter for the 8" drive, and the cabling system I use to >allow the external drive to be easily removable and to co-exist >with an A: internal drive. I have provided photos of the various >constructions as well as descriptive text. > >There is link to my "Connecting 8" and external drives" page >near the bottom of my "disks/software images" page, which is >accessable via a link near the bottom of my main page. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 12:45:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then > producting a small run of calendars featuring the top winning exhibits? > > Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in advance) > to the general public. I'd love to do this, but as Hans can attest, it's not a cheap process. > Perhaps even publish a coffee table book with exceptional photography > and some text on the restoration, historical context, or other info on each > featured system. I'd love to do this as well, but 5 other people have done this already (at least as far as coffee table books with nice photos of old computer go). Having a whole book dedicated to the VCF exhibitors awould be great, but again, the cost is prohibitive (not to mention the work involved to do it right). > That would be a fun project to work on, and might even be a better way > to grade different restorations as well. > > Some people would love to have the machines, but only have room for the > book. Hopefully this could grease the wheels a little. If someone wants to do a project like this, I'll be more than happy to provide encouragment :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 12:57:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 10:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comdex (Was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508040242.j742gNIT036095@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>> hey kept inflating the published numbers. > > Interesting... I guess they lied. > > Of course, fun as Comdex was, it's no VCF! :) That's right, and it never will be ;) I think part of the reason I started the VCF was to live the thrill of the WCCF which I was too young to attend. I was just getting in to computers by the time they were waning. I did get to go to the last AppleFest in SF. That was fun. And remember, the 'F' in VCF is for "Festival", not "Faire"! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 4 13:15:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:15:58 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: <0IKP002LGMPHFISD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ImageDisk/Site update posted. > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:01:10 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 10:38 AM 8/4/05 -0500, you wrote: >>Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> I have posted the update to ImageDisk which allows it to work >>> with Head/Cylinder values on a per-sector basis if needed. >>> I have also posted a number of additional ImageDisk format >>> system disk archives. >> >>Dave, from my quick read of your description of the IMD format, there is meta >>information that I think would be valuable to store. When a disk is imaged, the >>captured file should indicate which tracks/sectors had problems being read. >>That would allow automated merging of two different attempts to capture a given >>disk (I haven't used your merge program, but my understanding was that one had >>to manually specify which tracks to take from each image. Futher, when >>archiving one often is processing a large batch of disks. Keeping track of the >>problematic sectors manually and making sure that information is associated with >>the disk is challenging. Some months later when going back to a pile of disk >>images, it would be nice to know which sectors are suspect. > >Jim, > >I *DO* keep track of which sectors could not be read. If you look at the SECTOR >DATA RECORD, you will see that it consists basically of a flag byte followed by >the sector data. The flag bytes are: > > 00 = Sector unavailable (no data follows) > This means that the sector could not be read from the original master. > > 01 = Normal sector data (sector-size data bytes follow) > Self explainatory. > > 02 = Compressed sector data (1 byte follows) > This means that the entire sector was read and found to have all bytes > containing the same data value - IMD will automatically expand this sector-size > occuranges of the data value - it's primary purpose is to reduce the storage > required by unused areas of the disk. > >My analyze/merge utility will automatically extract 01 or 02 sectors from one image to >fill in 00 "holes" in another. It will also warn you if 01 or 02 sectors occuring on >both disks don't logically match (in which case you probably shouldn't be merging them). > >At this time I DO NOT keep track of the occurance of soft/recoverable read errors. In >my experience these have more to do with the particular PC/FDC/DRIVE combinarion and/or >individual disk condition, and I do not believe the added complexity/size of collecting >and recording such details will be worth it... > >ImageDisk will display sector read errors, and unavailable sectors as it records the >disk, and analyze/merge will display a summary of the Unavilable, NormalData and Compressed >sectors occuring within an image, as well as a detailed track by track summary if requested. >For me this gives me pretty much everything I can actually make use of. Dave, Read diagnostic command will read sectors with bad CRC or other problems. That may help with unreadable sectors. Keep cranking, you have a very useful tool there. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 13:22:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Brown wrote: > I wasn't able to stay for the end....which exhibits won the balloting? 1st: Auri Rahimzadeh, "Back to the Future" 2nd: Laurence Kelby, "Got Wood" and "Micro Kits" 3rd: two exhibitors tied for 3rd place: Michael Lee, "NeXTstations and More from Mike's Basement" Tom Uban, "Imlac PDS-1D" The winners will be getting a ribbon sent to them. Congrats! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 4 13:50:20 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:50:20 -0400 Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F2636C.8040009@atarimuseum.com> I liked Fire in the Valley for what it was at the time, I bought the 1st edition when it first came out. Apple Confidential was a fun read. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > >>Is there a more interesting book on early computers? I >>doubt it. >> >> > >Yes. Fire in the Valley. Stan's book is good reading but it contains >some factual errors and overall is not that well written (everyone's a >critic, eh?) > >Of course, there is a whole library of books to choose from: > >http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 8/3/2005 From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Aug 4 13:57:46 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:57:46 -0400 (edt) Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508040224.j742OIWk030604@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> from "Martin Scott Goldberg" at Aug 3, 05 09:24:17 pm Message-ID: <200508041857.OAA16631@wordstock.com> And thusly Martin Scott Goldberg spake: > > Yes, we've been building up the vintage computer section of the MGC every > year for the past 4 years (and I've also asked list members to partake, > as well as ask to have us host the Midwest VCF). The show is for vintage > to present, and covers computers, pins/em's, video coin-ops, and home > video game consoles. We had 1300 in attendance over the two days last > year, and took this year off to deal with the growth and plan for even > more growth next year. > > Consequently, we'll be back in 2006 (June 3rd and 4th) and moving the show > to an actual resort to make it an entire weekend "destination" event > (perfect for those of us with families, etc.) Roughly 20,500 square feet > to work with. Olympia, Wisconsin - about 30-45 minutes outside of > Milwaukee. website? :) Cheers, Bryan From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 4 14:00:51 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:00:51 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest prizes. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508041400.51247.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 August 2005 09:08, Bob Brown wrote: > I wasn't able to stay for the end....which exhibits won the > balloting? For third place, we had a tie between Tom Uban's "Imlac PDS-1D" and Michael Lee's "NeXTstations and More from Mike's Basement". In second place was Laurence Kelby, with his exhibits "Got Wood" and "Micro Kits". In first place was Auri Rahimzadeh's "Back to the Future" exhibit. I want to congratulate all of the exhibitors on a job well done. All of the exhibits were interesting and well laid out. Furthermore, I feel that Auri's and Laurence's exhibits were in my opinion very deserving of first and second place - both of them had quite huge and complex exhibits, and did a very impressive job. After than the "top two" exhibitors, who wowed us with their expansive exhibits, everyone else did still did a wonderful job as an exhibitor, and it would have been difficult for me to chose what I'd give 3rd place to, which probably explains why there was a tie. :) I just want to thank everyone that came out to speak, exhibit, vend, or just view the exhibits. I had a fun (if exhausting!) time, and am grateful for the turnout that we got. I hope that everyone else had at least as much fun as I did, if not more. Finally, I want to publically thank Sellam for allowing and helping me to put on as successful of a first midwestern VCF as we did. I couldn't have done it without him. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 4 14:04:14 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:04:14 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >there are a few contraptions out there by which you >can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... Not to mention the Tandy Color Computer: http://www.cloud9tech.com/ This one includes 4 banks of flash ROM for different DOS's (or oft-used cartridge proggies), CF and IDE ports, and a RTC as well. They have lots of stuff there, and it's under active development. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 4 14:35:49 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:35:49 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804200514.02e8b500@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> <200508041444.j74EiTV8025172@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153524.03a26328@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Stefan may have mentioned these words: >Ehmm what is the ImageDisk Site ? There's more info here: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/img/index.htm HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 13:46:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:46:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <200508020433.j724XVtP010036@keith.ezwind.net> from "Director" at Aug 1, 5 11:23:20 pm Message-ID: > of this I have parts for about 6 of these (I think), Diablo model 30 high > density (512B sect) drives, which on DEC I think would be an RK03. It was a Yes, the DEC RK03 is the high density Diablo model 30. > 2.5 MB removable cartridge disk with a stepping motor for the head > positioning. I can take pictures if this is not sufficient. These were used Are you sure about that? The model 30 I know used a permanent magnet brush motor for the head postiioner, with a rack and pinion mechanism to actually move the heads. Feedback came from a couple of PCBs on top of the motor spindle, the tracks of which effectively formed transformers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 13:49:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:49:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 3, 5 09:25:09 pm Message-ID: > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is surely a contradiction in terms -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 14:09:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:09:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 3, 5 11:32:45 pm Message-ID: > > there are a few contraptions out there by which you > can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64, > presumably an IDE drive too. Try ide64.org for Yes, from what I rememebr, a CF card can be made to look very much like an IDE drive. > starters. There was another one on Epay recently, > which I think used an MMC/SD card. > The notion of adding such a device to an old puter > has intrigued me also. Old RLL/MFM drives are a waste > of time IMHO, and new IDE drives probably won't work, > provided you even had an IDE interface (they do exist The IDE interface is very simple (the IDE card in this computer is about 10 TTL chips and a PAL). It should be possible to link an IDE drive to just about any old computer, as the drive (AFAIK) includes a data buffer RAM, it shouldn't matter if the host can't keep up with the data rate. I will admit I've not tried it, though. I suspect the main problem is writing the necessary drivers and getting the OS to recognise the new drive To take my favourite classic, the PERQ. It would be fairly easy to add an IDE drive interface on an OIO (Optional I/O) card. It would also be not too hard to write a program to transfer files between the main (ST506-interfaced) drive and the IDE drive, that is to use the IDE drive as a sort of backing store. It would be a _lot_ harder to get a PERQ to use an IDE drive as the main hard disk. > for XT class machines, but most of mine have > proprietary buses). > I know this is a broad question, but to what degree > can an FPGA take the place of early custom ic's? Say An FPGA is bascially what it says it is. A chip containing arbitrary logic gates (you define the functions when you program the chip) and flip-flops. Programming also defines the internal connections between the gates. You cna make just about any digital function using an FPGA, including, of course, procerssors. If you want to replace an existing chip, of course it's unlikely you'll be able to make a drop-in replacement (you can't assign power pins where you like, often an FPGA has dedicated clock inputs, etc). Another problem is working out the schematic/VHDL 'program' that represents the chip you want to replace. Particularly for custom chips where the full specs may well not be available And another problem is that, no matter waht the manufacturers will have you believe, every FPGA I've seen has interesting quirks. I suspect that if you took the schemaitcs of a TTL-based minicomputer, put them into a schematics capture program and turned the result into an FPGA program, the resulting FPGA would _not_ correctly emulate the original minicomputer. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 4 15:00:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:00:32 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 August 2005 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and > > then > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > That is surely a contradiction in terms Please, not this argument again... What he meant is "good enough" quality, for producing calendars or books from. A 20"x20" piece of sheet film isn't necessary for doing that, and a few k$ (or perhaps less) digital camera can produce "good enough" photos. In fact, I'd argue that to most people (Tony, as you should know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital camera will produce "good enough" results. Tony, I think what you call "good quality" most people would call "excessive quality". :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 15:08:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:08:11 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17138.30123.613582.796676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> there are a few contraptions out there by which you can connect a >> CF or SD card to a Commodore 64, presumably an IDE drive too. Try >> ide64.org for Tony> Yes, from what I rememebr, a CF card can be made to look very Tony> much like an IDE drive. More precisely, a CF card DOES act exactly like an IDE drive. Win and Linux both will handle it just fine as a removable disk device, and it obeys the standard IDE programming interface with the usual (PIO mode) CSRs. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 4 15:19:37 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:19:37 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153704.04bbca90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then > > producting a small run of calendars featuring the top winning exhibits? > > > > Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in advance) > > to the general public. How do you know who won in advance? Unless you mean "take pre-orders" for the calendars... >I'd love to do this, but as Hans can attest, it's not a cheap process. I might be able to cheapen the process - I have most everything necessary to put out a decent (tho not _extravagant_) calendar: Nikon D70 digital SLR, color laser printer (for the cheaper pages), dye-sublimation printer for the glossy coversheet(s), and a comb-binder to put 'er all together. If you really needed a hole to hang it from, I just happen to have a drill press, too. ;-) Granted, it just got a whole lot more expensive by someone needing to subsidize my travel costs (read: airfare) to any VCF not within driving range... > > Perhaps even publish a coffee table book with exceptional photography > > and some text on the restoration, historical context, or other info on each > > featured system. *That* would be way outta my league... >If someone wants to do a project like this, I'll be more than happy to >provide encouragment :) Encourage away, but if I can't afford to go, then it's all moot... ;-) [[ Yea, *technically* the stuff could be emailed to me, but where's the fun in that??? ;^> ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 15:18:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:18:38 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/4/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, from what I rememebr, a CF card can be made to look very much like > an IDE drive. In this vein, I'm fiddling with CF cards on a variety of machines (C-64 w/IDE-64, SBC-6120 w/IOB-6120 and with external CF interface, Elf 2000 w/ElfDisk board...) and am running into what might be compatibility issues with older CF cards. I've found a variety of web resources googling around, but does anyone have any information about when there might have been a sea change in CF features between the days of 4MB cards and "modern" 512MB cards? Specifically, I have a stack of HP 4MB CF cards that work with many devices. Those and some 8MB and 16MB cards (Kodak, SanDisk, etc, not brandless ones), don't seem to work reliably in some of my devices (IDENT failing, as one example) but in the same device, my Elf2K for example, the 1GB card came right up with the expected manufacturer string. So was there some change starting with, say, 32MB or 128MB cards, about timing or some other issue that might affect something as simple as reading the device registers from the embedded controller? In case it matters, AFAIK, the problems I'm having are only with using a CF card in a strictly 8-bit mode (something that CF cards do that "real" IDE drives do not). I'm not thinking this is something subtle - I'm thinking that someone might remember some warning somewhere about "oh, yeah... don't use 16MB cards in _that_ device... you have to use 32MB or newer". Any and all impressions accepted. I'm not the creator of any of these devices, so I have to kinda nibble around the problem from the edges before I try any sort of attempts at a fix. Of course, a pointer to a white paper on how to talk to CF cards in 8-bit mode would be most welcome. :-) Thanks, -ethan From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Aug 4 15:19:43 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:19:43 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F2785F.2060203@attglobal.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > >>How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and then >>producting a small run of calendars featuring the top winning exhibits? >> >>Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in advance) >>to the general public. > > > I'd love to do this, but as Hans can attest, it's not a cheap process. > > Here's one option that might fit the bill for you: http://www.lulu.com I became aware of them when I purchased an OpenOffice.org book, published through them. It's a "Publish on demand" type operation. BK From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 15:21:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:21:58 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17138.30950.255636.208396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> On Thursday 04 August 2005 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: >> > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and >> > then >> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is surely a contradiction in >> terms Patrick> Please, not this argument again... Patrick> What he meant is "good enough" quality, for producing Patrick> calendars or books from. A 20"x20" piece of sheet film Patrick> isn't necessary for doing that, and a few k$ (or perhaps Patrick> less) digital camera can produce "good enough" photos. In Patrick> fact, I'd argue that to most people (Tony, as you should Patrick> know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital camera Patrick> will produce "good enough" results. Certainly the kind of resolution that professional photographers would look for to make calendar-grade photos is readily available in the upper end of consumer digital cameras. Pros probably aren't using that, but the reasons for that are more in areas like swappable lenses and the ability to take lots of shots quickly, rather than in the resolution. Fanatics can get cameras with many tens of megapixels, and if you want a 30 by 50 inch photo you might want to rent one of those. But for 8x10 that's excessive. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 4 15:27:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:27:41 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153704.04bbca90@mail.30below.com> References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153704.04bbca90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200508041527.41431.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 August 2005 15:19, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > >On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and > > > then producting a small run of calendars featuring the top > > > winning exhibits? > > > > > > Give calendars to the exhibitors and vendors, and sell them (in > > > advance) to the general public. > > How do you know who won in advance? Unless you mean "take pre-orders" > for the calendars... I had the same thought about what he was saying, and then I realized that he probably means winners from previous VCFs. > >I'd love to do this, but as Hans can attest, it's not a cheap > > process. > > I might be able to cheapen the process - I have most everything > necessary to put out a decent (tho not _extravagant_) calendar: Nikon > D70 digital SLR, color laser printer (for the cheaper pages), > dye-sublimation printer for the glossy coversheet(s), and a > comb-binder to put 'er all together. If you really needed a hole to > hang it from, I just happen to have a drill press, too. ;-) >From my understanding, Hans could have made the calendars much cheaper if he had wanted to make some concessions in getting the calendars made. As it is, the pictures were taken with a very high quality digital camera (to satisfy Tony, high quality relative to what digital cameras can do ;), and he had actual lithographic plates made for printing the calendars, instead of having them digitally printed. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 4 15:32:24 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:32:24 -0400 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42F27B58.2080108@atarimuseum.com> On the Atari front - the "myide" interface for Atari XL/XE computers is a plug in cartridge that can use standard IDE drives and using an IDE to CF interface works great with CF cards as well. Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 8/4/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>Yes, from what I rememebr, a CF card can be made to look very much like >>an IDE drive. >> >> > >In this vein, I'm fiddling with CF cards on a variety of machines >(C-64 w/IDE-64, SBC-6120 w/IOB-6120 and with external CF interface, >Elf 2000 w/ElfDisk board...) and am running into what might be >compatibility issues with older CF cards. > >I've found a variety of web resources googling around, but does anyone >have any information about when there might have been a sea change in >CF features between the days of 4MB cards and "modern" 512MB cards? >Specifically, I have a stack of HP 4MB CF cards that work with many >devices. Those and some 8MB and 16MB cards (Kodak, SanDisk, etc, not >brandless ones), don't seem to work reliably in some of my devices >(IDENT failing, as one example) but in the same device, my Elf2K for >example, the 1GB card came right up with the expected manufacturer >string. > >So was there some change starting with, say, 32MB or 128MB cards, >about timing or some other issue that might affect something as simple >as reading the device registers from the embedded controller? In case >it matters, AFAIK, the problems I'm having are only with using a CF >card in a strictly 8-bit mode (something that CF cards do that "real" >IDE drives do not). > >I'm not thinking this is something subtle - I'm thinking that someone >might remember some warning somewhere about "oh, yeah... don't use >16MB cards in _that_ device... you have to use 32MB or newer". Any >and all impressions accepted. I'm not the creator of any of these >devices, so I have to kinda nibble around the problem from the edges >before I try any sort of attempts at a fix. > >Of course, a pointer to a white paper on how to talk to CF cards in >8-bit mode would be most welcome. :-) > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 8/3/2005 From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Thu Aug 4 15:43:13 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:43:13 -0600 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C04@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Gee, I looked at the picture and there isn't anything to indicate it's an Apple I, it looks like several homebuilt keyboards I've got sitting around the graveyard. (Keytronics perhaps?) Unless the seller sent out pictures of the guts to select people, how would they know what was in the box (it was described as boards, I thought the Apple I just had one PCB and no expansion cards). Or was there some mass hysteria going on here? Gary Fisher This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of William Maddox >Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:15 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: Kenbak-1 on Ebay > >--- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > >> Instead, BM meant our friend Dennis Komisky again. >> Dennis, please, check in >> with us here on cctalk!! > >No, no, no! Not Dennis. This was "collectrhc". >Here's the ersataz "Apple-1" auction I was referring to: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > >--Bill From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 15:46:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:46:00 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153704.04bbca90@mail.30below.com> <200508041527.41431.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17138.32392.261481.690755@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: >> From my understanding, Hans could have made the calendars much >> cheaper Patrick> if he had wanted to make some concessions in getting the Patrick> calendars made. As it is, the pictures were taken with a Patrick> very high quality digital camera (to satisfy Tony, high Patrick> quality relative to what digital cameras can do ;), and he Patrick> had actual lithographic plates made for printing the Patrick> calendars, instead of having them digitally printed. Huh? Digital presses use offset, too. And "lithographic plates" (offset printing plates) these days are made by digital processes. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 4 16:08:59 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:08:59 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.32392.261481.690755@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200508041527.41431.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17138.32392.261481.690755@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200508041608.59232.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 August 2005 15:46, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> > >> From my understanding, Hans could have made the calendars much > >> cheaper > > Patrick> if he had wanted to make some concessions in getting the > Patrick> calendars made. As it is, the pictures were taken with a > Patrick> very high quality digital camera (to satisfy Tony, high > Patrick> quality relative to what digital cameras can do ;), and he > Patrick> had actual lithographic plates made for printing the > Patrick> calendars, instead of having them digitally printed. > > Huh? > > Digital presses use offset, too. And "lithographic plates" (offset > printing plates) these days are made by digital processes. Digital *printing* (which is what I said above) doesn't. Well, at least the last time I checked, my Color LaserJet didn't look or sound much like a printing press. :) Ask Hans for an explanation, I'm just (trying to) repeat what he explained in his talk at the VCF/Midwest. I may have gotten a detail or two wrong. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 4 16:21:49 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:21:49 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk/Site update posted. Message-ID: <20050804212148.XNXV11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Read diagnostic command will read sectors with bad CRC or other problems. >That may help with unreadable sectors. > >Keep cranking, you have a very useful tool there. > >Allison Hi Allison, Humm... the NEC databook that I have makes no mention of a "READ DIAGNSTIC" command is this an undocumented feature or later version enhancement? If I can read "bad sectors", even with errors, I can add another Sector Data Block flag byte value which means "data but with errors". Can you give me details or point me at a reference which documents this and any other features not in the NEC data sheet? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 16:23:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:23:33 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200508041527.41431.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17138.32392.261481.690755@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508041608.59232.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <17138.34645.113419.327006@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> On Thursday 04 August 2005 15:46, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan >> writes: >> >> >> >> From my understanding, Hans could have made the calendars much >> >> cheaper >> Patrick> if he had wanted to make some concessions in getting the Patrick> calendars made. As it is, the pictures were taken with a Patrick> very high quality digital camera (to satisfy Tony, high Patrick> quality relative to what digital cameras can do ;), and he Patrick> had actual lithographic plates made for printing the Patrick> calendars, instead of having them digitally printed. >> Huh? >> >> Digital presses use offset, too. And "lithographic plates" >> (offset printing plates) these days are made by digital processes. Patrick> Digital *printing* (which is what I said above) doesn't. Patrick> Well, at least the last time I checked, my Color LaserJet Patrick> didn't look or sound much like a printing press. :) Digital printing is ambiguous. To some it means xerographic printing; to others it means digital presses. Generically it means a device where computer data goes in one end and paper with marks on it comes out the other. paul From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 4 16:25:41 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:25:41 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <20050804212541.NWDT11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >The IDE interface is very simple (the IDE card in this computer is about >10 TTL chips and a PAL). It should be possible to link an IDE drive to >just about any old computer, as the drive (AFAIK) includes a data buffer >RAM, it shouldn't matter if the host can't keep up with the data rate. > >I will admit I've not tried it, though. A couple of years back I implemented an MP3 player using an AVR and IDE interface - I controlled the IDE through simple parallel ports. The design didn't even have enough memory to buffer a sector, so it took advantage of the drive buffer, reading the data directly from the drive's buffer as it needed it. Writing (which it could do in download mode) was a bit more interesting... IIRC the drive was quite easy to talk to. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 17:30:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:30:45 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804172407.02e8bc18@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:25 PM 8/4/05 +0200, you wrote: >Tony, > >I haven't hooked it up to any system because I dont have any system >to hook it up to. >That is sort of my second question; if I would buy a modern PCI GPIB >card would I be able to make it work with the 7580A or other similar devices ? It should. I used to use a HP 7550 over a serial port on my PC running Win 3.1. Windows already had a driver for it. It was cool to write a document then change the colors in different parts of it and then print it on the plotter. The plotter would DRAW each letter and change pens when necessary. And it was fast! It was cool as hell to watch it in action! The plotter couldn't handle things with raster (large areas) graphics but it was fine for things that only included vectors such as text. If you go buy a HP-IB card then make sure that it includes drivers or that you can get drivers for it. My suggestion would be to find an old PC that has ISA slots then find an ISA HP-IB card. They're both CHEAP these days. Joe > >Stefan. > >At 02:01 4-8-2005, you wrote: >> > >> > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. >> > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT a system ? >> > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and >> > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. >> >>Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer >>interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and >>get it to plot it correctly?). >> >>If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually >>making proper contact? >> >>-tony > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 17:32:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:32:39 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <200508020433.j724XVtP010036@keith.ezwind.net> References: <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Gil, I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. Joe At 11:23 PM 8/1/05 -0500, you wrote: >15 years ago or so I parted out a IV/Phase IV/60 minicomputer. I had to >reduce space, so I kept all the interesting stuff and threw out the sheet >metal, plastic, foam, etc. & kept the motors, boards, sensors, etc. Four >Phase mostly OEMed peripherals, as did most mini manufacturers. As a result >of this I have parts for about 6 of these (I think), Diablo model 30 high >density (512B sect) drives, which on DEC I think would be an RK03. It was a >2.5 MB removable cartridge disk with a stepping motor for the head >positioning. I can take pictures if this is not sufficient. These were used >by almost every mini manufacturer. > >I also parted out at least two CDC 9762's. They are an 80 MB (unformatted) 6 >platter removable cartridge drive. I have the motors, fans, heads, etc. >These too were used by many vendors. > >Anybody needing such stuff please let me know. I would be happy to swap for >whatever interesting surplus you might have. > >TIA, > >Gil > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 17:34:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:34:03 Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050803111641.0338af20@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20041221152552.00980840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041221162211.0091a600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001101c4eaa6$2f65fbe0$0100a8c0@screamer> <007401c4eaea$320ff550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.16.20050802205519.3fa70dce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42F01E0C.2040107@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804173403.33df8e84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:17 AM 8/3/05 -0400, you wrote: >Vintage 60's-80's porn of chicks posing with computers? >hehehe. >-John Boffemmyer IV All in ASCII art! Joe > >At 10:32 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote: > >>Chad Fernandez wrote: >>>Joe R. wrote: >>>>Glen, >>>> >>>> I got your payment and your shipment will go out tomorrow via FedEx. >>>> >>>> Joe >> >>>Cool! What are you sending everybody? :-) >> >>I don't know, but the downside is that he seems to want payment first :^) >> >> Zane >> >> >>-- >>-- >>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>| | Classic Computer Collector | >>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >>| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >>| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 >> >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 17:37:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:37:51 Subject: New arrivals - NEC APC & Xerox 16/8 In-Reply-To: <20050803114616.80301.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804173751.18c71c8a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:46 AM 8/3/05 -0700, you wrote: >it might be a misnomer to designate the NEC APC as the >only DOS computer to have built in 8" disk drives - >although probably true - since others had external >disks as standard options. I've just obtained one, >along with external 5 1/4" drives to boot (no pun >intended). As a matter of fact, I want to figure out >just how to get it to boot off the 5.25's. Were there >cards for an IBM PC or 100% compatible that interfaced >to an external 8" floppy drive? The Compaticards did. I have another card that also does. It came from some company by the name of Farmer IIRC. It's still in an IBM AT. I need to set the CMOS on the PC and see if I can read the HD and find any drivers for the card. > The Xerox had 8" drives as options I've learned, but >mine only has a built in 5 1/4. Actually, the >expansion unit, which looks like the "cpu" has the >drive, and a seemingly flakey hard drive. The O/S and >development disks imaged fine, but other junk, >Wordstar etc., didn't :(. I have a job on my hands >figuring out how I'm going to hopefully archive the >APC disks - 10 boxes of them - which is why I'd like >to boot the thing off the 5 1/4's. Any suggestions? >Anyone with software for these 2 beasts? Don Maslin :-( I also have a couple of APC disks that I got from him. Joe > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail >Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: >http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 4 16:43:46 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:43:46 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Bob Brown wrote: > > > I wasn't able to stay for the end....which exhibits won the balloting? > > 1st: Auri Rahimzadeh, "Back to the Future" > 2nd: Laurence Kelby, "Got Wood" and "Micro Kits" Hmmm... "Got Wood"? They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. My wood exhibit took second at VCF East 2.0. Anybody get pictures of Mr. Kelby's display? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 16:55:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:55:53 -0500 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> <200508020433.j724XVtP010036@keith.ezwind.net> <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:32:39, Joe R. wrote: > Gil, > > I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can > be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. With the right cable adapters, the Diablo 30 should work with an RK8E. ISTR the Diablo has a fat-pin square grid-type connector, like an old fashioned V.35 serial connector, right? The RK05 uses a DEC backplane block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a DEC-style paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E). _Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real RK05, but mechanically, the cables are entirely different. The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case of an RK05, it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable adapters I mentioned. Of course, if you can find the right connector for your Diablo 30, you could make a custom terminator - it's just a bunch of resistors, and I'm sure the schematic is in multiple Unibus printsets on bitsavers (but I can't really say where to start, except look at any and all Unibus CPU prints). -ethan From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 4 16:57:56 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:57:56 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.34645.113419.327006@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <200508041527.41431.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17138.32392.261481.690755@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508041608.59232.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804174710.04fa3bf8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul Koning may have mentioned these words: > >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: >[snip] > >> > >> Digital presses use offset, too. And "lithographic plates" > >> (offset printing plates) these days are made by digital processes. > > Patrick> Digital *printing* (which is what I said above) doesn't. > Patrick> Well, at least the last time I checked, my Color LaserJet > Patrick> didn't look or sound much like a printing press. :) Laser printers *are* offset printing; they just use toner & static electricity instead of ink and aluminium plates... The insides of a laser printer rather *do* look like a printing press, color lasers even more so. If you were to move the sheets via vacuum instead of friction, I dare say it would sound quite a bit more like a modern offset printing press... Now, a Kluge on the other hand... ;-) I used a CompuGraphic PowerView 10 (and to a lesser extent, a 5) and a CG 8216 film output device (now *that* was kewl!) with fonts on optical disc (no... not MO, actual analog letters with light shined thru 'em and lenses and... a bitch to use, but it was kewl!); later I used a CG 8400(IIRC?) digital output device with fonts on 5.25" floppy. I wonder if they still have the old systems there... Anyone interested if they are? ;^> >Digital printing is ambiguous. To some it means xerographic printing; >to others it means digital presses. Generically it means a device >where computer data goes in one end and paper with marks on it comes >out the other. Yup... that pretty much sums it up. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Aug 4 17:16:05 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:16:05 +0200 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050805001201.02e84aa8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I was thinking of buying one of these or similar : http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1233 They seem to be well supported on modern systems. Stefan. At 19:30 4-8-2005, you wrote: >At 05:25 PM 8/4/05 +0200, you wrote: > >Tony, > > > >I haven't hooked it up to any system because I dont have any system > >to hook it up to. > >That is sort of my second question; if I would buy a modern PCI GPIB > >card would I be able to make it work with the 7580A or other similar >devices ? > > It should. I used to use a HP 7550 over a serial port on my PC running >Win 3.1. Windows already had a driver for it. It was cool to write a >document then change the colors in different parts of it and then print it >on the plotter. The plotter would DRAW each letter and change pens when >necessary. And it was fast! It was cool as hell to watch it in action! The >plotter couldn't handle things with raster (large areas) graphics but it >was fine for things that only included vectors such as text. > > If you go buy a HP-IB card then make sure that it includes drivers or >that you can get drivers for it. My suggestion would be to find an old PC >that has ISA slots then find an ISA HP-IB card. They're both CHEAP these days. > > Joe > > > > > >Stefan. > > > >At 02:01 4-8-2005, you wrote: > >> > > >> > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. > >> > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT > a system ? > >> > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and > >> > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. > >> > >>Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer > >>interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and > >>get it to plot it correctly?). > >> > >>If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually > >>making proper contact? > >> > >>-tony > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 4 17:15:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:15:53 -0700 Subject: Disk drive parts Message-ID: <254ccabae1b52f17b31c899e73b23c06@bitsavers.org> I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. -- 2.5 mb Diablos are RK02's. You'll find the adapter schematic in the RK11-C engineering drawings. It has a Winchester brand connector on one side and a Unibus paddle on the other. Either a Diablo or DEC Unibus terminator in one of the adapters can be used for termination. The difficult cable to find will be the one from the RK8E to the drive DEC PN in the RK8E drawing set. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 17:30:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ensoniq Mirage (was: ImageDisk and some 8' images posted In-Reply-To: <35545.195.212.29.83.1123058040.squirrel@195.212.29.83> References: <20050803030647.JACU11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050802202307.R57201@shell.lmi.net> <35545.195.212.29.83.1123058040.squirrel@195.212.29.83> Message-ID: <20050804152252.X2929@shell.lmi.net> > >> IIRC, the Ensoniq Mirage had mixed sector sizes. On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > There are two programs called "mwrite" and "mread" that write and read > Mirage disk images. In theory they could do SQ80 images too, if you could > modify them to read and write both sides. > > The disk format is a little odd - read about it here: > http://www.youngmonkey.ca/nose/audio_tech/synth/Ensoniq-Mirage_DiskFormat.html > > Basically sectors 0-4 are 1024 bytes long, and sector 5 is 512 bytes. Thank you, URLs posted yesterday explicitly stated that the Ensoniq Mirage format was 10 512 byte sectors. What you just posted matches what I had encountered. But I had only one sample diskette, that didn't have enough content to analyze the file system; and the owner of it died before he got around to giving me another. I hope that Allison is reading this thread. Not for the 8 foot disk in the subject line, but for the mixed sector sizes, combined with a sector numbered ZERO. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 17:36:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508040207.j7427dqF002391@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200508040207.j7427dqF002391@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <20050804153209.B2929@shell.lmi.net> > >West Coast Computer Faire (note the pretentious trailing 'e') > >was started as an annual event in about 1997? by Jim Warren On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > Off by about 20 years there. ;) 1977. Thanks I wasn't sure whether it was 1976 or 1977; so I ended up making a mistake just as serious as the Wikipedia article that had claimed that Comdex was built from WCCF. In the early ("good ol'") days, WCCF was a lot like VCF. Now VCF is bigger than WCCF or even Comdex! (and is still fun) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 18:02:17 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050804160053.G5596@shell.lmi.net> > Tony, I think what you call "good quality" most people would call > "excessive quality". :) Depending on price, etc., . . . put me down for one copy at "excessive wuality". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 18:54:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:54:43 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050805001201.02e84aa8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804185443.41972804@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:16 AM 8/5/05 +0200, you wrote: >I was thinking of buying one of these or similar : >http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1233 Yeouch! What does that thing cost???? I sold a butt load of older NI HP_IB cards to a guy for $115/ea. I found out he was using them for trade-ins to NI and they were giving him twice that much in trade-in so the new stuff has GOT to be expensive. Computer Boards and some other used to make exact clones of the NI stuff but for a lot less money. Joe > >They seem to be well supported on modern systems. > >Stefan. > >At 19:30 4-8-2005, you wrote: >>At 05:25 PM 8/4/05 +0200, you wrote: >> >Tony, >> > >> >I haven't hooked it up to any system because I dont have any system >> >to hook it up to. >> >That is sort of my second question; if I would buy a modern PCI GPIB >> >card would I be able to make it work with the 7580A or other similar >>devices ? >> >> It should. I used to use a HP 7550 over a serial port on my PC running >>Win 3.1. Windows already had a driver for it. It was cool to write a >>document then change the colors in different parts of it and then print it >>on the plotter. The plotter would DRAW each letter and change pens when >>necessary. And it was fast! It was cool as hell to watch it in action! The >>plotter couldn't handle things with raster (large areas) graphics but it >>was fine for things that only included vectors such as text. >> >> If you go buy a HP-IB card then make sure that it includes drivers or >>that you can get drivers for it. My suggestion would be to find an old PC >>that has ISA slots then find an ISA HP-IB card. They're both CHEAP these days. >> >> Joe >> >> >> > >> >Stefan. >> > >> >At 02:01 4-8-2005, you wrote: >> >> > >> >> > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. >> >> > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT >> a system ? >> >> > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and >> >> > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. >> >> >> >>Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer >> >>interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and >> >>get it to plot it correctly?). >> >> >> >>If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually >> >>making proper contact? >> >> >> >>-tony >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------- >> >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com >> > >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 19:03:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:03:33 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42EE9C00.7050406@gjcp.net> <200508020433.j724XVtP010036@keith.ezwind.net> <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804190333.3edfbd90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 PM 8/4/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:32:39, Joe R. wrote: >> Gil, >> >> I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can >> be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. > >With the right cable adapters, the Diablo 30 should work with an RK8E. That's what I was told. > ISTR the Diablo has a fat-pin square grid-type connector, like an old >fashioned V.35 serial connector, right? Yeap, that's them. I've heard them called Winchester connectors. I've been watching for a connector to fit the drive but haven't found one yet. I did find one that is one row longer so I could probable use it except that one screw won't line up. There are three connectors on the D30. One is for power, one is for computer interface and the other is to connect to additional drives or a terminator. BTW the manuals for the Diablo 30 are on Al's site. The RK05 uses a DEC backplane >block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a DEC-style >paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E). >_Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real RK05, but >mechanically, the cables are entirely different. Yeah that was an unplesant surprise! BTW I found out that the d30 uses an external power supply. Does anyone have the specs or pinout for it or even an extra PSU? Joe > >The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case of an RK05, >it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a >Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable >adapters I mentioned. Of course, if you can find the right connector >for your Diablo 30, you could make a custom terminator - it's just a >bunch of resistors, and I'm sure the schematic is in multiple Unibus >printsets on bitsavers (but I can't really say where to start, except >look at any and all Unibus CPU prints). > >-ethan > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 18:09:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Grrr - !%#*^@# Kaypro! In-Reply-To: <0IKP008BM5YXD8S7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IKP008BM5YXD8S7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050804160650.W5596@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: > >>Maybe... there are caveats on that. Technically a sector number of 0 > >>should not be used. > . . . > Yes, NEC never guarenteed that it would work or continue to work. There were > a few chips used in PCs (Not fully 765 compatable) that were questionable > around this. > I also tried it and found it worked. However IBM 3740 and later Floppy specs > had reasons for not using 0th sector. As they say by spec it's wrong > otherwise it works. "If I were to have KNOWN that it couldn't be done, it would have taken a lot longer." - Wile E. Coyote principle of software development From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Aug 4 18:11:24 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:11:24 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E software In-Reply-To: <1FE926B6023F9C489B9B4EF2410E98F1017BB774@USCHD00MX10USR> References: <1FE926B6023F9C489B9B4EF2410E98F1017BB774@USCHD00MX10USR> Message-ID: At 2:23 PM -0700 8/3/05, McMichael, Patrick wrote: >Hi long time ago in DEC I had a friend who was the RSTE product manager >left sometime in 80's and works for Bally's >Gaming Systems can't recall his name but he authored RSTE and I am sure >his first name was Dave but he was on of the original >RSTE engineers in DEC Not sure who you're referring to. One of the few names I can recall from that period was a fellow Anton Chernikof (?). Pretty sure he was RSTS and not VMS. No doubt Paul Koning would know the RSTS team. John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 18:21:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:21:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 4, 5 05:32:39 pm Message-ID: > > Gil, > > I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can > be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. The Diablo Model 30 has a similar interface to the RK05, apart possibly for the select lines. The Model 30 has 1-of-4 selects (a bit like a floppy drive), the RK05 _can_ do that, or it can do 3-bit binary selects (this is seelcted by a pin on the RK05 connector). The former, of course, allows up to 4 drives per cable, the latter 8. Anyway, it should be possible to get it to work with an RK8E controller (IIRC your PDP8 is an Omnibus machine). Maybe you'll have to a add a bit of logic to sort out the selects, but that's not exactly difficult. Do you have the PSU for the Model 30? It needs +/-15V at a fairly high current IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 18:27:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:27:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804190333.3edfbd90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 4, 5 07:03:33 pm Message-ID: > The RK05 uses a DEC backplane > >block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a DEC-style > >paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E). > >_Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real RK05, but > >mechanically, the cables are entirely different. > > Yeah that was an unplesant surprise! Althoguh if you get a real Diablo cable, it has the connector mounted on a little PCB, with a trasnistion connector and then a length of ribbon cable on that. If you take off one end, the wires are in almost the right ordser to solder to a DEC 'unibus' cable board to link to the RK11-C or whatever. I wonder why :-) > > BTW I found out that the d30 uses an external power supply. Does anyone > have the specs or pinout for it or even an extra PSU? I thought the manuals were on bitsavers. The PSU pinout should be in there. There were 2 PSUs from Diablo, one using a transsitorised regulator, the other using a ferroresonant trasnformer. DEC also made their own PSU (H734 or something) for these drives. > > Joe > > > > >The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case of an RK05, > >it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a > >Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable The Diablo terminator is a PCB stuffed with resistors soldered to the connector. There's a +5V pin on the connector to power the terminator, of course. I have _one_ of them, I also have 2 drives and the interconnecting cables, so it's not up for grabs. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 4 18:54:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Warren (was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <200508041714.KAA12689@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508041714.KAA12689@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050804165246.R5596@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I recall driving up to Jim's place off of Sky Line Blvd > to buy tickets. He had the most enjoyable place > to work that I've ever seen. a friend of a friend of a classmate of his ex-girlfriend says that he sold the house and is currently travelling in a motor home From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 18:35:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:35:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 4, 5 03:00:32 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 04 August 2005 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and > > > then > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > That is surely a contradiction in terms > > Please, not this argument again... > > What he meant is "good enough" quality, for producing calendars or books > from. A 20"x20" piece of sheet film isn't necessary for doing that, No, I think 5"*4" would be adequate :-).... One of the main advantages of that sort of camera, of course, is the movements (you can shift and tilt the lens board and the film back) which should help reduce perspective distortion. I am told you can process digital images to do this, though. > and a few k$ (or perhaps less) digital camera can produce "good enough" > photos. In fact, I'd argue that to most people (Tony, as you should > know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital camera will produce > "good enough" results. You do realise I paid less than that for my monorail camera. The camera itself was \pounds 150, a new set of bellows \pounds 40, and the lens/shutter came off a battered-but-repairable Micropress which I paid \pounds 50 for. And the results are way beyond any digital camera you're likely to see. > Tony, I think what you call "good quality" most people would call > "excessive quality". :) Yes, but most people have never seen what I call a good quality photograph.... -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 4 19:25:25 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:25:25 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F2B1F5.nailLYI16FC00@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [View camera vs digital point-and-shoot] No, I think 5"*4" would be > adequate :-) I had the opportunity to use 11"x14" film at one point (part of medical imaging equipment, but it was obviously scaled up from 4"x5" stuff.) I love going to extremes, but I love using medium-format (2.25" x 2.25" frame on rollfilm) equipment compared to large-format stuff (even the "portable" large-format stuff like View Graphics are a bit awkward). The monorail sits in the box for years at a stretch but my Mamiya gets used a couple times a month. All that said, if you want a decent-sized calendar then a digital point-and- shoot is not gonna do the job AT ALL. A very high-end professional digital camera (many thousands of dollars, but they can be rented) could do OK at that enlargement size, but even with big flash cards you'll find that you don't have room for many pictures at high resolution. Film really is easier and cheaper in this case for this application. Tim. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 19:37:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:37:20 -0400 Subject: RSTS/E software References: <1FE926B6023F9C489B9B4EF2410E98F1017BB774@USCHD00MX10USR> Message-ID: <17138.46272.810251.664616@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: John> At 2:23 PM -0700 8/3/05, McMichael, Patrick wrote: >> Hi long time ago in DEC I had a friend who was the RSTE product >> manager left sometime in 80's and works for Bally's Gaming Systems >> can't recall his name but he authored RSTE and I am sure his first >> name was Dave but he was on of the original RSTE engineers in DEC John> Not sure who you're referring to. One of the few names I can John> recall from that period was a fellow Anton Chernikof (?). John> Pretty sure he was RSTS and not VMS. No doubt Paul Koning John> would know the RSTS team. First RT, then RSTS. Anton Chernoff, my mentor and a serious wizard. I remember some Daves, but none that come to mind as being particularly early. But my memory is getting a tad rusty... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 4 19:45:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:45:30 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <42F2B1F5.nailLYI16FC00@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: Tim> All that said, if you want a decent-sized calendar then a Tim> digital point-and- shoot is not gonna do the job AT ALL. A very Tim> high-end professional digital camera (many thousands of dollars, Tim> but they can be rented) could do OK at that enlargement size, Tim> but even with big flash cards you'll find that you don't have Tim> room for many pictures at high resolution. Film really is Tim> easier and cheaper in this case for this application. Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel cameras? A 35 mm camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. Also, once you figure in the postprocessing all the way to press, film isn't necessarily easier or cheaper anymore. Sure you get a nice negative. Now you have to scan it, on a drum scanner if you want to keep all those pixels. ... paul From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 4 20:31:07 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:31:07 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42F2B1F5.nailLYI16FC00@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42F2C15B.nail2QV1WMNB0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel cameras? Yeah, it's not so bad printed onto 8"x10" photo paper. I don't like it at 11"x14". Admittedly it's hard to make truly sharp 11"x14" prints from a typical 35mm negative too, but then again I haven't shot anything smaller than medium format in 15 years now, so my perceptions may not match the average guy's. (I love B/W films with strong sharp grain, printed to give really sharp prints. As Kodak has proved, not your typical consumer stuff anymore. In fact I've gotten more into photography since Kodak has discontinued their B/W papers, which is too bad because over the past couple years I've actually grown to like Kodak Polymax papers. I'll probably go back to Ilford.) Another problem I have with digital cameras is I don't like 1.5:1 aspect ratios. Again, I'm obviously on the losing side as I much prefer square negative formats and prints! The photo archive people where I work have some really cool toys. They pull out a large-format negative from 30 years ago, stick it in the drum scanner, dink with it a little bit on the computer, click and send it to 20"x24" photo paper that is dry in a few minutes. But... they don't get their hands wet!!! Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 21:34:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:34:42 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050804173239.3f77e54c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804213442.3e9fce10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:21 AM 8/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Gil, >> >> I have a Diablo 30 and I need cables for it. I've been told that it can >> be used with the PDP-8 but I need to find out which interface it requires. > >The Diablo Model 30 has a similar interface to the RK05, apart possibly >for the select lines. The Model 30 has 1-of-4 selects (a bit like a >floppy drive), the RK05 _can_ do that, or it can do 3-bit binary selects >(this is seelcted by a pin on the RK05 connector). The former, of course, >allows up to 4 drives per cable, the latter 8. > >Anyway, it should be possible to get it to work with an RK8E controller >(IIRC your PDP8 is an Omnibus machine). Maybe you'll have to a add a bit >of logic to sort out the selects, but that's not exactly difficult. > >Do you have the PSU for the Model 30? It needs +/-15V at a fairly high >current IIRC. > No I don't. I need to find a picture of one and see if I can find one in the pile of DEC stuff and/or find out the specs for the PSU and see if I can find something else that will replace it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 4 21:39:32 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:39:32 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050804190333.3edfbd90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050804213932.3e8f0d2a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 AM 8/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >> The RK05 uses a DEC backplane >> >block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a DEC-style >> >paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E). >> >_Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real RK05, but >> >mechanically, the cables are entirely different. >> >> Yeah that was an unplesant surprise! > >Althoguh if you get a real Diablo cable, it has the connector mounted on >a little PCB, with a trasnistion connector and then a length of ribbon >cable on that. If you take off one end, the wires are in almost the right >ordser to solder to a DEC 'unibus' cable board to link to the RK11-C or >whatever. I wonder why :-) > >> >> BTW I found out that the d30 uses an external power supply. Does anyone >> have the specs or pinout for it or even an extra PSU? > >I thought the manuals were on bitsavers. The PSU pinout should be in >there. Yes, the manuals are on Bit-savers but IIRC they don't recall them giving any details about the PSU. There were 2 PSUs from Diablo, one using a transsitorised >regulator, the other using a ferroresonant trasnformer. DEC also made >their own PSU (H734 or something) for these drives. Can you check and make sure that that's the correct PN? If it is, I'll go hunt for one. There are piles of DEC PSUs in Melbourne. >> >> > >> >The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case of an RK05, >> >it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a >> >Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable > >The Diablo terminator is a PCB stuffed with resistors soldered to the >connector. There's a +5V pin on the connector to power the terminator, of >course. I have _one_ of them, I also have 2 drives and the >interconnecting cables, so it's not up for grabs. Do you have schematics for any of those? Joe > >-tony > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 21:02:38 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:02:38 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050804210238.6d03ffad.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:35:37 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > On Thursday 04 August 2005 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > How about taking good quality digital photos of the exhibits and > > > > then > > > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > That is surely a contradiction in terms > > > > Please, not this argument again... > > > > What he meant is "good enough" quality, for producing calendars or > > books from. A 20"x20" piece of sheet film isn't necessary for doing > > that, > > No, I think 5"*4" would be adequate :-).... > > One of the main advantages of that sort of camera, of course, is the > movements (you can shift and tilt the lens board and the film back) > which should help reduce perspective distortion. I am told you can > process digital images to do this, though. > > > and a few k$ (or perhaps less) digital camera can produce "good > > enough" photos. In fact, I'd argue that to most people (Tony, as > > you should know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital > > camera will produce "good enough" results. > > You do realise I paid less than that for my monorail camera. The > camera itself was \pounds 150, a new set of bellows \pounds 40, and > the lens/shutter came off a battered-but-repairable Micropress which I > paid \pounds 50 for. And the results are way beyond any digital camera > you're likely to see. > You can buy a 4x5 'digital back' for that camera. A quick google search brings up places that mention them, but I can't find a place that lists a typical price. I know they used to cost about the same as a luxury sports car, so it's probably not an online 'shopping cart' item to purchase. Then you'd have the 'bellows, lens, etc.' arrangement that you're familiar, and probably very skillful, with. All the large format tricks would work. You'd also be dealing with 450MB images for each shot. From tradde at excite.com Thu Aug 4 21:02:25 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Disk drive parts Message-ID: <20050805020225.B6CCAB6CC@xprdmailfe15.nwk.excite.com> --- On Thu 08/04, Joe R. < rigdonj at cfl.rr.com > wrote: From: Joe R. [mailto: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:39:32 Subject: Re: Disk drive parts At 12:27 AM 8/5/05 +0100, you wrote:
>> The RK05 uses a DEC backplane
>> >block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a DEC-style
>> >paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E).
>> >_Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real RK05, but
>> >mechanically, the cables are entirely different.
>>
>> Yeah that was an unplesant surprise!
>
>Althoguh if you get a real Diablo cable, it has the connector mounted on
>a little PCB, with a trasnistion connector and then a length of ribbon
>cable on that. If you take off one end, the wires are in almost the right
>ordser to solder to a DEC 'unibus' cable board to link to the RK11-C or
>whatever. I wonder why :-)
>
>>
>> BTW I found out that the d30 uses an external power supply. Does anyone
>> have the specs or pinout for it or even an extra PSU?
>
>I thought the manuals were on bitsavers. The PSU pinout should be in
>there.

Yes, the manuals are on Bit-savers but IIRC they don't recall them
giving any details about the PSU.

There were 2 PSUs from Diablo, one using a transsitorised
>regulator, the other using a ferroresonant trasnformer. DEC also made
>their own PSU (H734 or something) for these drives.

Can you check and make sure that that's the correct PN? If it is, I'll
go hunt for one. There are piles of DEC PSUs in Melbourne.



>>
>> >
>> >The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case of an RK05,
>> >it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a
>> >Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable
>
>The Diablo terminator is a PCB stuffed with resistors soldered to the
>connector. There's a +5V pin on the connector to power the terminator, of
>course. I have _one_ of them, I also have 2 drives and the
>interconnecting cables, so it's not up for grabs.

Do you have schematics for any of those?

Joe

>
>-tony
>
>

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but offer it anyway. I have a pdp-8i with two RK8 drive (really RK03s). The power supply is a Pertec unit (at least the manual I have for it says Pertec). It's labelled Model 9000. If desires I could try to get copies of specific pages for you. Tim Radde _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 4 21:21:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H734-A power supply Message-ID: <20050805022118.D1521182C1D@bitsavers.org> Joe, that is the correct number. Pat had one that I bought a few months ago. It takes up roughly 5" of rack space, and is the usual black rack mounted looking ps. It will be marked with the +/- 15v rating and there should be one or two small Winchester power supply connectors on it. I also misposted in my last msg. RK03's were the 2 meg version like RK05's RK02's were 1/2 the track density. As Tony pointed out, the big difference was individual drive select lines on the diablo, as opposed to 3:8 decoding on rk05's. You can mix rk's and diablos as long as you're careful about the drive selects. Come to think of it, though, you may have trouble making a diablo drive 0 on an RK8E... I have lots of diablo interconnect cables and terminators in my Alto parts stash.. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 4 21:22:07 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H734-A source Message-ID: <20050805022207.D8E3B182C22@bitsavers.org> If you can't find one anywhere else, US computer supply has one listed for $50 http://www.usce.org/digital.htm From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Aug 4 21:26:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:26:42 -0500 Subject: PC<>PC File transfer (was classiccmp knowledgebase) In-Reply-To: <002101c5991a$dc59cfc0$5d00a8c0@gamemachine> References: <01C59759.E2EE9FE0@H67.C223.tor.velocet.net> <002101c5991a$dc59cfc0$5d00a8c0@gamemachine> Message-ID: <20050804212642.481c88e4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:35:06 +0100 "Charles Blackburn" wrote: > If anybody remembers the old versions of laplink where they told you > to issue a mode command etc to redirect com1 > > Iirc you can use that to install any file onto the pc you just had to > give it the filename as an option ymmv > My smallest laptop is an HP Omnibook 300, which includes built-in Laplink. It only has PCMCIA slots and harkens back to the Windows 3.1 era (it has Windows 3.1 in run-in-place ROM on a special PCMCIA card) so there's nothing fancy about it and it's designed to connect to 'classic' peecees over serial or parallel interfaces. All you need to 'connect' it to another DOS PC is the serial or parallel laplink cable. It has a built-in function to 'inject' the Laplink remote access TSR with the mode command and com1 redirection. Pulling up the install procedure in the Windows 3.1 dialogues of the Omnibook, it says to enter the following two commands at the remote end you're 'injecting' llremote into: mode com1:2400,n,8,1,p ctty com1 Then you click 'ok' on the Windows dialogue on the Omnibook that cited the two preceeding commands and it sends the remote client. I've never 'reverse engineered' it to see how it accomplishes it's work. The tiny executable that it 'injects' into the remote system, called llremote.exe, is a TSR that also works peer-to-peer on any two DOS machines and automatically maps ALL remote drives on either end to the two host machines connected with 'Laplink' serial or parallel cables. I actually went out afterwards and bought commercial 'Laplink' thinking it would be that good (llremote.exe is an 84 kb executable and semi-transparently remaps the drives peer-peer). Commercial Laplink is a dog by comparison (IMHO). The only way I know to 'license' llremote.exe is to have bought an HP Omnibook 300, which was a $2400 386sx laptop with 2 megs of RAM. (which was enough RAM to run Windows 3.1, Excel, and Microsoft Word all concurrently, since the machine has unique 'run-in-place' versions that run directly out of ROM so don't use RAM- something only the technical wizards at Hewlett-Packard's Corvalis Division (the same place that produced the HP Calculator line, and the HP95/100/200LX systems) could produce. (I've gushed about the Omnibook 300 before, thanks for bearing with me on this) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 4 21:45:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:45:55 -0500 Subject: computing nostalgia Message-ID: <012101c59967$d45d9070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just got back from another out of town jaunt, and am trying to catch up on email. This one was sent to another list I am on, and I thought people here would appreciate it. See below. Jay --- >From http://www.ypsidixit.com/blog/archives/2005/08/remember_punch.html August 01, 2005 "Remember 80-column punch cards? "Just think of the concept--the data is made up out of thin air! The card is just there to organize the holes" How many cards would it take to encode a 3-minute mp3? Answer: "Assuming a non-Hollerith encoding with eight bits per column, and an MP3 file encoded at 128kbps CBR, there would be 36,864 cards in that deck, and the card reader would need a throughput of 205 cards per second. It might be wise to include an 8-column sequence number, however, so that a misordered deck can be repaired by a card sorter; with 72 data columns per card, the total is precisely 40,960 cards (40K cards), requiring a 228 card/second throughput." The 21 boxes of cards needed would by 5 feet 9 inches tall. That such a huge leap in technology is well within living memory is astonishing. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 4 21:45:52 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:45:52 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >I've found a variety of web resources googling around, but does anyone >have any information about when there might have been a sea change in >CF features between the days of 4MB cards and "modern" 512MB cards? > > There is the older CF standard, and the newer CF+ standard. However, both should function identically in "True IDE" mode. >Of course, a pointer to a white paper on how to talk to CF cards in >8-bit mode would be most welcome. :-) > > Well, the official CompactFlash spec (google for a copy, or email me as a last resort) tells quite a bit, but one must have a grounding in how to communicate with an IDE drive first (to understand the command set and sequence). You can only do 8-bit mode when in CF "memory mapped mode". But, as that requires the same amount of lines and precludes the support of IDE disks in a project, many opt to use True IDE mode. In IDE mode, you have to send and receive data in 16 bit chunks, but I do it with a 8-bit micro, and others have as well. You simply treat the 16 bit data as two IO bytes, and twiddle the IDE lines via a third IO port as needed. Polled IDE mode requires 24 IO lines to operate. Memory mapped 8 bit mode requires almost as many, unless you decide to directly map the 1K CF "window" into your memory map. But, in the end, True IDE mode is simple enough and supports IDE, PCMCIA, and CF options (disk wise). As for the issue you decribed, if you want to mail me a card, I can play with it and see. I did notice an issue with a card previously mailed to me; it did not have an MBR. Many interfaces (mine included), rather assume an MBR as the first sector of the disk. But, some smaller cards opt to forego the MBR, placing the first FS sector as sector 1 of the card. At this point, I don't know how OS's like Windows determine what the FS is on the card, as the FS type is a function of a byte in the MBR (which is missing on those cards). I addressed the issue here by doing using fdisk to delete all partition information, doing a fdisk /mbr (or was is format /mbr), and creating a new partition on the card in a PC with a IDE->CF adapter. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 4 21:53:09 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:53:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel cameras? A 35 mm > camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. I have seen a buddy's 12 (or 16, I forget) megapixel triple sensor camera, and the results were astounding good. His 8 by 10 prints were film quality. And that was a year ago. What are they up to now? 24 megapixel? Film is just about dead... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 4 21:54:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SHIPPING In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050803111641.0338af20@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: > Vintage 60's-80's porn of chicks posing with computers? > hehehe. Only real Data General collectors have that one issue of Hustler (I do not know the issue, so do not ask) that features a little fling in the DP department. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 4 22:09:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:09:40 -0500 Subject: Interex closing down. References: <200508012254.j71MstoN007825@mail.bcpl.net> <42EEB58C.nailG8U1R93GT@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <016601c5996b$1ef94450$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> J. D. Bryan had written.... >> The stuff under the "RTECSL" directory is the entire contributed >> software library for the 21xx series [...] Over 2000 programs. Tim responded... > This is a remarkable collection. Imagine if we had the same for > DECUS libraries etc. Not that we're doing badly - all the popular > things appeared on DECUS SIG tapes or the collection tapes and > are readily available - but having a complete collection packaged > up in one place is fabulous. > > Thanks very much for saving the csl-index, BTW. It makes all even > more fabulous. The entire rtecsl directory, as well as the conference directories, have been stuffed over on to the classiccmp server. I've already offered to host the Interex site free of charge. If they take me up on that, great. If they bring the site up elsewhere, then I'll ask their permission to turn on my copy of it as a mirror. If they don't wish me to, I won't. If the site disappears and never comes back, well, I'll turn on my copy to keep the library available to those in need. Jay West From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 4 22:28:03 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:28:03 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <003301c59893$5b3f80b0$0100a8c0@screamer> <5.1.0.14.2.20050804153704.04bbca90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002401c5996d$b15fae90$0100a8c0@screamer> I was rambling a bit, and not really clear. A calendar showing the VCF exhibits would be practical. The coffee table book I was suggesting would not be limited to exhibits. Many collectors on this list have prized systems or large installations that just are not practical to bring to a VCF. To make a coffee table book documenting these machines, each collector who wants to submit a system would provide (or arange for) digital images of their system, and some detailed documentation on its history and state of preservation, etc. Maybe collect these on a web site over some preset time period, and then evaluate and judge the entriesafter some through research. Sort of a web-based virtual VCF. Basically the 'prizes' would be how much coverage your system got in the book. This approach would be nearly ideal for the really heavy iron thats too large or valuable to truck around like a microcomputer system (not that such a book / contest project would not accept micros...). There could even be enteries for the CDC 6500 up at the museum, or the PDP-1 restoration, etc. It should not matter if the 'collector' is private or professional (maybe seperate these by catagory if needed...). From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 22:26:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050804153209.B2929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > In the early ("good ol'") days, WCCF was a lot like VCF. > Now VCF is bigger than WCCF or even Comdex! (and is still fun) And just a few more years and I'll have been going for longer than both as well. If I can make it...burn out is setting in :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 4 22:28:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Warren (was: WCCF (Was: VCF Midwest update? In-Reply-To: <20050804165246.R5596@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > I recall driving up to Jim's place off of Sky Line Blvd > > to buy tickets. He had the most enjoyable place > > to work that I've ever seen. > > a friend of a friend of a classmate of his ex-girlfriend says > that he sold the house and is currently travelling in a motor home I think I can corroborate this story (though indirectly). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 4 23:00:57 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:00:57 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: Message-ID: <004801c59972$4942e750$0500fea9@game> Film will be like vinyl records and tube amplifiers, it will never completely go away. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 10:53 PM Subject: Re: VCF suggestions... > > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel cameras? A 35 mm > > camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. > > I have seen a buddy's 12 (or 16, I forget) megapixel triple sensor camera, > and the results were astounding good. His 8 by 10 prints were film > quality. > > And that was a year ago. What are they up to now? 24 megapixel? > > Film is just about dead... > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 00:00:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:00:07 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 8/4/05, Jim Brain wrote: > There is the older CF standard, and the newer CF+ standard. However, > both should function identically in "True IDE" mode. Right. I'm not thinking of CF+... I'm thinking of older changes. > Well, the official CompactFlash spec (google for a copy, or email me as > a last resort) tells quite a bit, but one must have a grounding in how > to communicate with an IDE drive first (to understand the command set > and sequence). I have written real IDE drivers in the past (for the Amiga). > You can only do 8-bit mode when in CF "memory mapped mode". But, as > that requires the same amount of lines and precludes the support of IDE > disks in a project, many opt to use True IDE mode. In IDE mode, you > have to send and receive data in 16 bit chunks, but I do it with a 8-bit > micro, and others have as well. You simply treat the 16 bit data as two > IO bytes, and twiddle the IDE lines via a third IO port as needed. That sounds a little familar. > But, in the end, True IDE mode is simple enough and supports IDE, > PCMCIA, and CF options (disk wise). The interfaces I'm having issues with are CF-only (IOB6120 and ElfDisk on an Elf2K). They are _not_ designed and are not described as compatible with "real" IDE disks... they are 8-bit CF only. The 40-pin IDE interfaces I have that I'm using CF cards on (via a CF adapter) work perfectly with these 4MB and 16MB cards. > As for the issue you decribed, if you want to mail me a card, I can play > with it and see. I did notice an issue with a card previously mailed to > me; it did not have an MBR. Neither of these that I'm playing with are FAT-type interfaces - they read and write raw blocks. Completely MS-DOS-incompatible. Choices are the native target interface, dd under UNIX, or via custom applications under DOS/Windows. There is no MBR, no partition table - in the case of the IOB6120 - it's a fixed 2MB per partition, so you have as many partitions as you have groups of 4096 blocks. With the Elf2K, it's an ElfOS issue, and it has its own directory structure that has no correlation with MS-DOS. I have a *large* card that works fine. I would rather not have to use a $70 card and leave 99% of it blank (I want to use it in my camera). I'd like to find out why this stack of 4MB cards doesn't seem to work with these particular machines. Thanks, -ethan From wayne.smith at charter.net Fri Aug 5 00:33:47 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:33:47 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <200508040139.j741dPSo041184@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006801c5997f$4455b0d0$6401a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 00:23:46 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: VCF Midwest update? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > I've been to sevearl HPCC 2-day conferences (these are the UK HP > calculator conferences). There is an attendance fee, but this > is reduced > if you give a talk (or contribute to the conference in some > other way). > It's not free for anyone, but certainly the people who do > something for > the conference are not penalised. > > > People are attracted to the VCF presumably to see the > machines on show. > To charge the exhibitiors (who are the ones to attract the > public) and > then not cheage the public for coming in sounds to be totally > ridiculous > to me. > > -tony > You, and a lot of others on this list, don't get it. This isn't a for-profit enterprise like most conferences. This is a hobbyist show, put on and financed by a hobbyist on a shoestring budget at considerable risk. I would put up serious money that Sellam in the best years does little more than break even on the shows he does, and has probably lost money on some of them. Moreover, if you factored in all of the time that he and other expend putting on the show, and value it at any reasonable level (or even at minimum wage), these shows would show a substantial deficit. All this talk about exhibitors attracting dollars is absolute nonsense in this context - no one is trying to or even expecting to make money on these shows (though it would certainly be nice if that were the case, and I'm sure that Sellam was originally hoping it would grow into something big and profitable). Rather, those that participate merely hope that there is enough continued interest so that the show will continue for another year. I have exhibited at VCF for the last five years. Since the first year I have felt that I am part of the show and have a personal stake in how it turns out. That's because it isn't a show run by some corporate monolith trying to turn a profit and wring every possible penny from the participants; rather it is a show run by a hobbyist, for other hobbyists. So, when Sellam started asking the exhibitors to pay a small exhibition fee a few years ago, it made perfect sense to me, even though I'm a cheapskate (as I take it many others are on this list). Like most other exhibitors, I am invested in the show and want it to succeed and continue, and by contributing something financially (albeit a very small amount) I am doing a little bit more to support something that I really enjoy and look forward to. The reality is that most exhibitors would much rather attend the show as exhibitors than as non-exhibitors (why else would we do it?) so the notion that they should free ride on attending the show because the show derives a benefit from their presence really doesn't fly in the least bit. Sellam is the producer and the exhibitors and speakers are the "co-producers." It's our show; only the vendors make money. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 5 01:12:38 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:12:38 -0700 Subject: Totally OT: email directories? Message-ID: Many moons ago, there used to be directories of email address. While not the most complete, they could be useful for tracking people down. I'm searching for a couple of people that I used to work with, and am wondering if anything like this exists in a modern sense. Ideally I want something that can search on user names, as I know the ones they're most likely using. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Fri Aug 5 01:50:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the Electrologica X1 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804172212.02e87608@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050804172212.02e87608@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050804234554.E40684@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Stefan wrote: > Subject: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the Electrologica X1 > > Thought this might be a nice read for some of you : > > http://repos.project.cwi.nl:8080/nl/repository_db/all_publications/4155/ Wow, thanks for the reference! ALGOL development is pretty interesting, it was a wonderful and awful thing. I've read Randall and Russell's "ALGOL 60 IMPLEMENTATION" (1964); it doesn't contain code, but it very thoroughly documents the design and algorithms in prose, examples and the intermediate ("p-code") internal interpretive language. Pretty amazing all around, that they documented it so well. Alas, abebooks can't find a copy of the Dijkstra-Zonneveld book. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 02:06:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227183199 Read the description, then weep. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Aug 5 02:24:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:24:58 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F3144A.8010209@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm thinking back to the original intent of this. Is it that the guy > wanting to do this (sorry, forgot who you are) wants to put a computer > running a BBS on the internet? If so, all these suggestions are overkill. Agreed, but I would KILL to be able to play modem games again -- not BBS games, but games for which the only method of playing against someone else was via modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to mind. Some games even let you play against players with completely different hardware, such as Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley (PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc. I think that that kind of emulation is not going to happen... unless I get off my ass and write it myself. I think the only practical way to get it to happen is to come up with some sort of protocol and/or document it fully with portable source code, and then implement it in some emulators, like WinUAE and DOSBOX, and finally demonstrate a working 2-player game using the "modem" setting in the game, but going over TCP/IP. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Aug 5 02:52:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:52:48 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: >> there are a few contraptions out there by which you >> can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... > > Not to mention the Tandy Color Computer: Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 5 02:57:19 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:57:19 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <42F31BDF.3000701@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >The interfaces I'm having issues with are CF-only (IOB6120 and ElfDisk >on an Elf2K). >They are _not_ designed and are not described as compatible with >"real" IDE disks... they are 8-bit CF only. The 40-pin IDE interfaces >I have that I'm using CF cards on (via a CF adapter) work perfectly >with these 4MB and 16MB cards. > > Ahh, the memory mapped mode. I'm afraid I will be of little help. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 02:56:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <006801c5997f$4455b0d0$6401a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Wayne Smith wrote: > for-profit enterprise like most conferences. This is a hobbyist show, > put on and financed by a hobbyist on a shoestring budget at considerable > risk. I would put up serious money that Sellam in the best years does > little more than break even on the shows he does, and has probably lost > money on some of them. I don't think I've ever publicly stated this before, but I lost $6K on VCF 1.0. > Moreover, if you factored in all of the time that he and other expend > putting on the show, and value it at any reasonable level (or even at > minimum wage), these shows would show a substantial deficit. I think it usually comes out to less than minimum wage :) > expecting to make money on these shows (though it would certainly be > nice if that were the case, and I'm sure that Sellam was originally > hoping it would grow into something big and profitable). Rather, those It could, and I'm hoping someday it will. Right now I'm content with what it makes (small profit every year, at least for the main VCF). I have/had ideas for adding elements to the event (business seminars) that would bring in big corporate bucks but it's even more work. If only I had a staff... > I have exhibited at VCF for the last five years. Since the first year I Thanks, Wayne!! You are indeed a longtime VCF veteran (one of the longest). > presence really doesn't fly in the least bit. Sellam is the producer > and the exhibitors and speakers are the "co-producers." It's our show; > only the vendors make money. Wayne, thanks for the kind words. And you are absolutely correct. The participants are indeed very much involved in making the event a success. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 02:57:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Totally OT: email directories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Many moons ago, there used to be directories of email address. While > not the most complete, they could be useful for tracking people down. > I'm searching for a couple of people that I used to work with, and am > wondering if anything like this exists in a modern sense. Ideally I > want something that can search on user names, as I know the ones > they're most likely using. Will post thius publicly because it's quite useful. I used it to find a good old friend from high school recently (just using the free service). http://www.zabasearch.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 04:06:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 02:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <42F3144A.8010209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Agreed, but I would KILL to be able to play modem games again -- not BBS > games, but games for which the only method of playing against someone > else was via modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to > mind. Some games even let you play against players with completely > different hardware, such as Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley > (PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc. Yo Leonard! Never heard of Modem Wars for some reason. Sounds intriguing. I once did a legal research project on this (in fact, it was my first). Some guy patented multi-node, multi-player networked video games (i.e. everything on the internet today) back in 1982. The task was to find prior art to prove that this sort of game has been arounded prior to 1982. Of course Mazewar on the Imlac was a major patent killer (and mine came in handy for the attorneys). We also located some other interesting microcomputer examples. The first was TelePong for the Apple ][ (1978). The attorney found reference to it while going through an old issue of Byte or something in my collection. It was a demo that got sent with the then new Apple Communications Card. You could play an opponent at Pong at another Apple ][ either through a null modem or over a modem. The second was Commbat for the TRS-80 (1980). Published by Adventure International (Scott Adams). You played against an opponent on another TRS-80 connected by a serial (or something). The game on one machine (the master) generated a terrain map and then transmitted the map to the other computer. You then had to play "capture the flag". The third was an unwitting clone of Commbat. It was called Flash Attack! (1982) and ran on the PET. It was exactly the same thing as Commport. A map would be generated on the "master" computer (as designated by a certain pin on the user port being set a certain way) and then transmitted to the other computer. Then play would begin and each player on each PET would navigate their tank to the other side of the map where the opponent's base was. The object was to destroy the opponent's base. All these and more are cool early networked microcomputer games. Besides Maze War, the other contender vying for "first" networked computer game is Spasim: http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/spasim.html (Somewhat pompous) However, I've found evidence (in the way of memos) of multiplayer networked games (though not graphical based) being played on JOSS (I think running on the Johnniac? It's not clear...) in the late 1960s. Will pick up research on that when I have time. > I think that that kind of emulation is not going to happen... unless I > get off my ass and write it myself. I think the only practical way to > get it to happen is to come up with some sort of protocol and/or > document it fully with portable source code, and then implement it in > some emulators, like WinUAE and DOSBOX, and finally demonstrate a > working 2-player game using the "modem" setting in the game, but going > over TCP/IP. Doom would be a good test case. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 5 04:32:16 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:32:16 +0200 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:53:09 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > Film is just about dead... No. Analog (chemical film) photography is as dead as cinemas are dead since the wide spread of TV sets in every household. With more and more TVs in peoples homes "everyone" predicted the death of the cinema. But there are still cinemas, 50 years after TVs became common. The question is not analog vs. digital photography. The question is when to use what of those two mediums. They are entirely different mediums, each with its special strengths and weakneses. There are many things you can do equaly in analog or digital. But there are many other things that are impossible with analog or impossible with digital. There is a lot of overlapping, i.e. things you can do analog or digital. Therefore many people see digital as a replacement for analog, but this is not the case. Analog vs. digital photography is like apples and pears. They look similar, but you know the difference if you taste them. Or compare it to black/white vs. color photography. Color is common and affordable for many years. Even when you do all processing yourself at home. But there are still a lot of photographers that use classical black/white materials. There is still fibre based (baryt) paper in wide use although there is the much easier to handle RC paper. There are even people using old print technics like cyanotype or laborious oil prints. It depends on the _target_ of your photographic ambitions what technic to use. The actual technic, what ever it is, is a minor point. The technic doesn't matter, als long as you can handle it well enough to achieve your goal. I got into classical, analog black/white photography a few months ago. (After I did this many years ago in school.) I don't like to handle all this toxic chemestry. But it is the only way to get what I want: Large (8"x10" is the absolute minimum) fine art b/w prints on fibre (baryt) paper. I am using a medium format camera (Kiev 88) as this is the minimum format to get acceptable results for this print size. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hans.franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 5 04:58:33 2005 From: hans.franke at siemens.com (Franke, Hans) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:58:33 +0200 Subject: AW: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: Whats wrong with that ? Gruss H. -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von Vintage Computer Festival Gesendet: Freitag, 5. August 2005 09:07 An: Classic Computers Mailing List Betreff: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227183199 Read the description, then weep. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 06:58:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:58:52 +0000 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 11:32 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > The question is not analog vs. digital photography. The question is when > to use what of those two mediums. They are entirely different mediums, > each with its special strengths and weakneses. One thing I found when travelling is that it's much nicer to have a conventional analogue film camera vs. digital. It's easy to get hold of film (and batteries if needed) pretty much anywhere, but with digital you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're likely to take) etc. cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 5 07:14:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:14:01 -0400 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Brain writes: Jim> You can only do 8-bit mode when in CF "memory mapped mode". Jim> But, as that requires the same amount of lines and precludes the Jim> support of IDE disks in a project, many opt to use True IDE Jim> mode. In IDE mode, you have to send and receive data in 16 bit Jim> chunks... No... the classic PIO mode IDE registers are 8 bits wide, not 16. Some devices may allow 16 bit access as an optimization, but 8 bit accesses is all you need. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 5 07:15:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:15:39 -0400 Subject: Totally OT: email directories? References: Message-ID: <17139.22635.152000.145701@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> Many moons ago, there used to be directories of email address. Zane> While not the most complete, they could be useful for tracking Zane> people down. I'm searching for a couple of people that I used Zane> to work with, and am wondering if anything like this exists in Zane> a modern sense. Ideally I want something that can search on Zane> user names, as I know the ones they're most likely using. Try Google. Apart from that, I don't remember those things (phone and address, yes -- switchboard.com was an early one, and of course Google does that, too). In this age of spam, no sane person would cooperate with an email directory anymore... paul From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 5 07:26:43 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:26:43 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <014401c599b8$f0d2b4a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Film is just about dead... All I can say is shame on Tony for starting such an OT threadette. How do people on this list get all the time to waste on such irrelevant arguments? John A. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 08:00:04 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:00:04 +0100 Subject: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64050805060038c9d54a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/5/05, Franke, Hans wrote: > Whats wrong with that ? > > Gruss > H. > I'm guessing this line : Several skips were needed to take the old stuff to a breaker's yard - but I managed to rescue this patch ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 5 08:14:44 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:14:44 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> At 06:58 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: >but with digital >you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, >finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or >take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're >likely to take) etc. Ye gods. I get about 500 pictures on a $100 1 gig CF with a 8 megapix Nikon. Sometimes I can shoot that many on a single charge. How much space and money is consumed by 14 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm? Next time you look for film, look for memory cards. They're there, too. You like analog cameras and lots of pictures? Great, take one along with your digital. You're stingy with film and you don't even realize it. You won't be with digital. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 5 08:11:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:11:42 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805080726.055d4df0@mail> At 06:58 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: >but with digital >you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, >finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or >take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're >likely to take) etc. Ye gods. I get about 500 pictures on a $100 1 gig CF with a 8 megapix Nikon. Sometimes I can shoot that many on a single charge. How much space is consumed by 14 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm? - John From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 08:28:21 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 06:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805132821.89360.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> weep, why? sounds like he saved the small part decades ago, good for him, I suspect many of us (older then 40 anyway) passed up many golden opportunities years ago. Of course his comment about having to sell a 6 x 10 inch item because he is moving into a smaller house is kinda goofy --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227183199 > > Read the description, then weep. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 08:42:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:42:27 +0000 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> Message-ID: <1123249347.31081.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 08:14 -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 06:58 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: > >but with digital > >you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, > >finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or > >take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're > >likely to take) etc. > > Ye gods. I get about 500 pictures on a $100 1 gig CF with a 8 megapix > Nikon. Sometimes I can shoot that many on a single charge. How much > space and money is consumed by 14 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm? Next time > you look for film, look for memory cards. They're there, too. I'm talking about proper travelling though where you might see a backwater shop once every couple of weeks though. They won't do new- fangled CF cards, but they do tend to do 35mm film :-) > You like analog cameras and lots of pictures? Great, take one > along with your digital. Yep, that's what I've done in the past - but if I'm out trekking I'm limited to what I can carry on my back, so having to take more than one camera is annoying! (to be fair, modern digitals are pretty amazing on the battery front - it's quite surprising how long they'll last on a single charge. I should still carry a second charged battery about just in case though...) cheers J. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 5 09:01:51 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:01:51 -0400 Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> References: <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805093715.01bd9090@mail.30below.com> Any replies, offlist please! Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 06:58 AM 8/5/2005, you wrote: > >but with digital > >you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, Show me a consumer film camera made in the last 15 years that doesn't take batteries in some form or another... > >finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or > >take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're > >likely to take) etc. > >Ye gods. I get about 500 pictures on a $100 1 gig CF with a 8 megapix >Nikon. Then you're shooting in the wrong mode. ;-) I get 140 pictures on my 1Giggers with only a 6MP Nikon (D70), because I shoot raw instead of jpg. I can then bibble the pix to help bring out extra detail & whatnot, as (at least on my camera) raw == 12-bit lossless info, whereas jpg == 8-bit lossy info. More info means I have a better chance of recovering a bad shot taken by the idiot behind the camera (me). > Sometimes I can shoot that many on a single charge. How much >space and money is consumed by 14 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm? Many would say that if you're serious, you're not using 35mm... ;-) I'm an amateur (at best) and my digital SLR outperforms my old Canon 35mm (in ways that only I care about! ;-) enough for me to ditch film. 'Course, I will never, never, never, never take pictures on the level that Tony does. I don't need equipment like that to take pictures of my kids stuffing blueberries up their nose. > Next time >you look for film, look for memory cards. They're there, too. > >You like analog cameras and lots of pictures? Great, take one >along with your digital. You're stingy with film and you don't even >realize it. You won't be with digital. For a lot of people, there's a huge difference between "stingy" and "careful." Why do we work with computers with K's of memory instead of laptops now that can take G's? Are we "stingy" with memory??? I'm not saying you can't be a great photographer with digital - just that those who are learned to be careful with film first, and *do it right the first time.* Because of the ease of chimping photos with digital cameras, many people who claim to be pros aren't because the don't learn what they should know *before* they push the shutter button. [[ Roger holds up 2 fingers on each hand facing outward, in a 'V' fashion, puts on his best Nixon impersonation (Best == pitiful...) and says "I am *not* a pro." ]] =-=-=-=-=-=-= What's sad about this thread is: 1) I started it, altho ontopically [[ my offer to make a calendar with all my neat (to me) shiznit ]. My offer still stands, BTW. ]] 2) This pissing match [ film vs. digital ] has happened on this list 2-3 times before, and it's the same old roadkill. How does one invoke Darwin on threads like this? "Survival of the fittest" --> and this thread ain't fit to survive anymore... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 09:11:09 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805141109.36583.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> Agreed, my uncle is a professional photographer, photographs mostly museum pieces, jewelry, watches, ancient artifacts stuff like that (hires hand models), his photographs are used in large coffee table sized books, posters, full page magazines ads, museum brochures etc the pictures are outstanding. Anyway he has a safe (literally) full of hasselblad camera's and lens as well as 4x5 an 8x10 view cameras. he now uses digital scanning backs that fits directly on back of these camera. These are 100+ megapixel units that produce files over a gig in size. There is nothing a 8x10 film view camera can produce that these camera's can't equal, in my opinion. --- William Donzelli wrote: > > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel > cameras? A 35 mm > > camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. > > I have seen a buddy's 12 (or 16, I forget) megapixel > triple sensor camera, > and the results were astounding good. His 8 by 10 > prints were film > quality. > > And that was a year ago. What are they up to now? 24 > megapixel? > > Film is just about dead... > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 5 09:08:47 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:08:47 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42F372EF.3000403@jbrain.com> Paul Koning wrote: >No... the classic PIO mode IDE registers are 8 bits wide, not 16. >Some devices may allow 16 bit access as an optimization, but 8 bit >accesses is all you need. > > The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data register is 16 bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in order to get the data from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers nets you 512 bytes of data, the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 bit addressing mode, the LBA registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits as well. All the IDE code I've looked at does it this way. I believe I have the ATA r4 spec here that states that as well. But, if you've noted a way to switch IDE into 8-bit mode, let me know. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From news at computercollector.com Fri Aug 5 09:31:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:31:41 -0400 Subject: KILL KILL KILL -- RE: was VCF suggestions / now photography In-Reply-To: <20050805141109.36583.qmail@web51612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508051440.j75EelRX063674@keith.ezwind.net> No one here cares about your uncle and his jewelry and hand models. (Sorry to take it out on you, Steve. Nothing personal...) At the risk of lecturing where I too have sinned (we all have) -- it's one thing to have off-topic stuff now and then, but the degree to which many cctalk's seem entirely incapable of restraining themselves from posting "me too / oh yeah / yeah!" crap is absolutely baffling. Now, it's ironic because this very email could start ANOTHER redundant thread (although I strongly urge against that) -- this topic was discussed here several months ago, I recall -- BUT -- just because cctalk is "on and off-topic" vs. cctech doesn't mean that any and all off-topic is acceptable. It's just supposed to mean "non-technical vintage computing issues and the and occassional joke." One of the nice features about Erik Klein's vcforum approach: there are separate categories for off-topic and political rants. (Granted, his site doesn't have the traffic of classiccmp, so it's easier to police.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF suggestions... Agreed, my uncle is a professional photographer, photographs mostly museum pieces, jewelry, watches, ancient artifacts stuff like that (hires hand models), his photographs are used in large coffee table sized books, posters, full page magazines ads, museum brochures etc the pictures are outstanding. Anyway he has a safe (literally) full of hasselblad camera's and lens as well as 4x5 an 8x10 view cameras. he now uses digital scanning backs that fits directly on back of these camera. These are 100+ megapixel units that produce files over a gig in size. There is nothing a 8x10 film view camera can produce that these camera's can't equal, in my opinion. --- William Donzelli wrote: > > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel > cameras? A 35 mm > > camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. > > I have seen a buddy's 12 (or 16, I forget) megapixel triple sensor > camera, and the results were astounding good. His 8 by 10 prints were > film quality. > > And that was a year ago. What are they up to now? 24 megapixel? > > Film is just about dead... > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 5 09:48:25 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:48:25 -0400 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: <42F372EF.3000403@jbrain.com> References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Brain may have mentioned these words: >Paul Koning wrote: > >>No... the classic PIO mode IDE registers are 8 bits wide, not 16. >>Some devices may allow 16 bit access as an optimization, but 8 bit >>accesses is all you need. >> >The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data register is 16 >bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in order to get the data >from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers nets you 512 bytes of data, >the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 bit addressing mode, the LBA >registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits as well. > >All the IDE code I've looked at does it this way. I believe I have the >ATA r4 spec here that states that as well. >But, if you've noted a way to switch IDE into 8-bit mode, let me know. If you're looking for quick-n-dirty, you could always just ignore half of the capacity and send/receive 8 bits.... With 16 Meg flash cards, that might be less than optimal, but with the costs of 512M/1G cards where they are today, it is an option whilst still retaining a decently large amount of quick storage for an 8-bit machine, with a lot less hardware & coding to interface it. This would preclude any sneakernet applications, however. Just a [prolly dumb] thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 5 10:05:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0400 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <17139.32806.504569.153049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Roger" == Roger Merchberger writes: Roger> Rumor has it that Jim Brain may have mentioned these words: >> Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> No... the classic PIO mode IDE registers are 8 bits wide, not 16. >>> Some devices may allow 16 bit access as an optimization, but 8 >>> bit accesses is all you need. >>> >> The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data >> register is 16 bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in >> order to get the data from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers >> nets you 512 bytes of data, the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 >> bit addressing mode, the LBA registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits >> as well. It's almost time for 48 bit LBA for flashcards, but not quite yet... Curious. I have some code here that usees 8 bit data buffer accesses on one platform, and 16 bit accesses on another. The one I usually run is the 16 bit case, but last I knew the 8 bit case still worked... paul From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 5 10:11:32 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:11:32 -0400 Subject: Lost Projects References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com><42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com><17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <001a01c599cf$f718ba00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> This thought crossed my mind many moons ago offline, here it is on-list. If the amount of lost time spent reading offtopic and other time wasting threads is were counted up assume 800 readers, 100 full-time, 700 part time 80+ posts a day, 30,000 a year 1 second to read a header, 10 seconds to skim a post 1/3 of posts off-topic and other then time wasted is 100 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 10 / 3,600 ~= 2,800 +700 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 1 / 3,600 ~= 1,900 = 4,700 = 2 1/3 man-Years wasted In effect, the full-time equivalent of two complete engineers is continuously going wasted. That could amount to *a few* open-CatWeasels, Q-IDE controllers, USB 8" drives or whatever. John A. I don't take this too lightly. From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 5 10:19:28 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:19:28 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002701c599d1$12dfd240$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >>> can connect a CF or SD card to a Commod... > Okay, now I've got to ask: > Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? If I had to do this I would look for a CF to IDE adaptor (simple,passive,cheap) and combine it with an early model IDE controller and then use no-larger than 40MB CF media, to appease the controller. I understand that the jump from the PC/1981 to XT/1983 made it possible to boot from a HD, otherwise a floppy had to be involved. John A. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 10:24:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:24:33 -0500 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: <42F372EF.3000403@jbrain.com> References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com> <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42F372EF.3000403@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 8/5/05, Jim Brain wrote: > The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data register is > 16 bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in order to get the > data from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers nets you 512 bytes of > data, the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 bit addressing mode, the LBA > registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits as well. > > All the IDE code I've looked at does it this way. I believe I have the > ATA r4 spec here that states that as well. > > But, if you've noted a way to switch IDE into 8-bit mode, let me know. This is not an ATA feature I'm talking about, it's a CF feature... >From http://www.compuphase.com/mbr_fat.htm ... you can switch the Compact Flash card to use only 8-bit transfers, in case you need to connect the Compact Flash card to an 8-bit bus. Accessing a drive takes the following steps: 1. The address is asserted on lines A0-A2 and /CS0 + /CS1. In True IDE mode, only three of the address lines of the Compact Flash card are used, in combination with the /CS0 and /CS1 lines which select the "register set". Only either of the /CS0 and /CS1 lines is active (not both at the same time). 2. After a delay of 70 ns (or more), either the /IORD or /IOWR is activated, depending on whether you want to initiate a read or write instruction. The /IORD or /IOWR are the strobes. 3. Another delay, of 165 ns, is needed before inactivating the /IORD or /IOWR lines. At the same time of inactivating the strobe, or immediately before or after inactivating the strobe, you can read or write the data to the D0-D15 lines. 4. Although this is optional, it is recommended that both /CS0 and /CS1 are inactivated at the end of the read or write cycle. You may need another delay here, because a full cycle has also a minimal duration. Instead of a simple idle loop, you may however choose to perform other operations in that time --such as interpreting the data after a read operation, or fetching new data after a write operation. So... again, the problems I'm having are with certain cards and not others. My records of success are 4MB HP - fail, 16MB Kodak - strange behavior/fail, 512MB Simple Technology - fail, SanDisk 1GB - works. I'm just trying to solicit input from anyone who might know a tidbit like "don't try that with cards under 32MB" or some other such nugget of wisdom. I brought up the 8-bit mode thing because it's an unusual use of the CF card and might be relevant. Thanks, -ethan From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Aug 5 10:45:54 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:45:54 +0200 Subject: HP 7580A questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804185443.41972804@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.0.20050803194543.02e8f630@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.16.20050804173045.0e6771b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050804185443.41972804@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050805174507.031ccad0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> About 150 dollars, some will come cheaper, some more expensive, depends on who you buy them from. Its not cheap for a card I suppose but than again, if it works I can imagine me having fun with it so :-) At 20:54 4-8-2005, you wrote: >At 12:16 AM 8/5/05 +0200, you wrote: > >I was thinking of buying one of these or similar : > >http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1233 > > Yeouch! What does that thing cost???? I sold a butt load of older NI >HP_IB cards to a guy for $115/ea. I found out he was using them for >trade-ins to NI and they were giving him twice that much in trade-in so the >new stuff has GOT to be expensive. Computer Boards and some other used to >make exact clones of the NI stuff but for a lot less money. > > Joe > > > > > >They seem to be well supported on modern systems. > > > >Stefan. > > > >At 19:30 4-8-2005, you wrote: > >>At 05:25 PM 8/4/05 +0200, you wrote: > >> >Tony, > >> > > >> >I haven't hooked it up to any system because I dont have any system > >> >to hook it up to. > >> >That is sort of my second question; if I would buy a modern PCI GPIB > >> >card would I be able to make it work with the 7580A or other similar > >>devices ? > >> > >> It should. I used to use a HP 7550 over a serial port on my PC running > >>Win 3.1. Windows already had a driver for it. It was cool to write a > >>document then change the colors in different parts of it and then print it > >>on the plotter. The plotter would DRAW each letter and change pens when > >>necessary. And it was fast! It was cool as hell to watch it in action! The > >>plotter couldn't handle things with raster (large areas) graphics but it > >>was fine for things that only included vectors such as text. > >> > >> If you go buy a HP-IB card then make sure that it includes drivers or > >>that you can get drivers for it. My suggestion would be to find an old PC > >>that has ISA slots then find an ISA HP-IB card. They're both CHEAP these >days. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> > >> > > >> >Stefan. > >> > > >> >At 02:01 4-8-2005, you wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > I dug up a HP 7580A and hooked it up, it seems to work fine. > >> >> > But the question is now, how do I make it do anything, WITHOUT > >> a system ? > >> >> > Pressin pen down doesn't do much, and although I can move left and > >> >> > right I cant make it move the paper forward and backward. > >> >> > >> >>Are you saying these functions do work correctly from the computer > >> >>interface (in other words you can send it (presuambly) an HPGL file and > >> >>get it to plot it correctly?). > >> >> > >> >>If so, have you checked that that the frontpanel buttons are actually > >> >>making proper contact? > >> >> > >> >>-tony > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------- > >> >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 10:44:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:44:58 +0000 Subject: Lost Projects In-Reply-To: <001a01c599cf$f718ba00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com><17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> <001a01c599cf$f718ba00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1123256698.31098.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 11:11 -0400, John Allain wrote: > This thought crossed my mind many moons ago offline, > here it is on-list. > > If the amount of lost time spent reading offtopic and other > time wasting threads is were counted up > > assume > 800 readers, 100 full-time, 700 part time > 80+ posts a day, 30,000 a year > 1 second to read a header, 10 seconds to skim a post > 1/3 of posts off-topic and other > > then time wasted is > 100 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 10 / 3,600 ~= 2,800 > +700 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 1 / 3,600 ~= 1,900 > = 4,700 = 2 1/3 man-Years wasted Don't we all just look at the subject line and ditch messages that aren't of interest to us (OT or just not something that suits our individual tastes)? Plus, didn't you miss out days in the above calculation? Even assuming the ten second part is correct, isn't it: 100 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 10 / 3,600 ~= 2,800 hours +700 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 1 / 3,600 ~= 1,900 hours = 4,700 hours = 196 man-days (approx 1/2 man-year) I think that's an order of magnitude less than time spent in the bathroom... :-) cheers Jules From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 5 10:49:46 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:49:46 -0700 Subject: film vs. digital (OT) In-Reply-To: <200508051519.j75FIrmj078293@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508051519.j75FIrmj078293@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <23a9c3af75dc71baf5317e3c8f7e400e@valleyimplants.com> just look at a platinotype or gold-toned printing-out paper print- the richness of the print will just bowl you over. Wanted to try them for years but don't have the equipment. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 5 10:49:57 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:49:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another diskimaging project) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com><42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com><17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <14041.162.123.17.85.1123256997.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> > If you're looking for quick-n-dirty, you could always just ignore half of > the capacity and send/receive 8 bits.... With 16 Meg flash cards, that > might be less than optimal, but with the costs of 512M/1G cards where they > are today, it is an option whilst still retaining a decently large amount > of quick storage for an 8-bit machine, with a lot less hardware & coding > to > interface it. For an IDE interface using a home-grown FS, that is a very valid and often usd approach. With IDE drives in the 100s of GB, and considering the application, it's very workable. For CF, though, as you noted, the loss of sneakernet limits the usefulness. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 5 10:53:58 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:53:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another diskimaging project) In-Reply-To: <17139.32806.504569.153049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com><42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com><5.1.0.14.2.20050805104016.03a33d58@mail.30below.com> <17139.32806.504569.153049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <22043.162.123.17.85.1123257238.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> >>>>>> "Roger" == Roger Merchberger writes: > Curious. I have some code here that usees 8 bit data buffer accesses > on one platform, and 16 bit accesses on another. The one I usually > run is the 16 bit case, but last I knew the 8 bit case still > worked... Are you sure they used True IDE mode? In disk memory mapped mode, the same IDE registers are available, but the data is memory mapped, and you can select 8-bit data accesses... Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 5 11:10:51 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:10:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imagingproject) In-Reply-To: References: <20050804063245.90915.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <42F2D2E0.6080003@jbrain.com><17139.22537.734000.132658@gargle.gargle.HOWL><42F372EF.3000403@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <55384.162.123.17.85.1123258251.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> > This is not an ATA feature I'm talking about, it's a CF feature... > >>From http://www.compuphase.com/mbr_fat.htm ... That writeup is a bit misleading. If you wire up the ATASEL line low, you cannot do 8-bit transfers. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 5 12:28:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... Message-ID: <200508051728.KAA13284@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 11:32 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> The question is not analog vs. digital photography. The question is when >> to use what of those two mediums. They are entirely different mediums, >> each with its special strengths and weakneses. > >One thing I found when travelling is that it's much nicer to have a >conventional analogue film camera vs. digital. It's easy to get hold of >film (and batteries if needed) pretty much anywhere, but with digital >you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, >finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or >take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're >likely to take) etc. > >cheers > >Jules > Hi I have a Canon D10. I like being able to snap 10 or 20 pictures of a child in action and not worry about wasting film. I don't recall the exact count but it does 2 or 3 a second. Each is sharp enough for a 8x10. The D20 is even better but wasn't out when I bought the D10. Unlike most digitals, it can be run on full manual, semi-auto or full auto. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 12:49:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I shouldn't write when I'm high. On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The third was an unwitting clone of Commbat. It was called Flash Attack! > (1982) and ran on the PET. It was exactly the same thing as Commport. A ^^^^^^^^ I meant Commbat. Also, to clarify, the author of Flash Attack! wrote it claiming she had no prior knowledge of Commbat. According to her, it was entirely a coincidence that her game was almost a clone of Commbat. Flash Attack! was for the PET and Commbat for the TRS-80. Back then, most people were wedded to their platform of choice, so this is entirely plausible. Also, from what I recall, work on Flash Attack! began prior to the publication of Commbat and evolved for several years until Flash Attack! was published in 1982. I should add that I have all three games I mentioned (TelePong, Commbat, Flash Attack!) I got TelePong and FlashAttack! working before the plaintiff (the patent holder) decided to settle with EA (my client's client). But not before the patent holder had already gotten a settlement out of I believe Sega and some other companies. EA should have fought this and had the patent over-turned, but as these things go, it was cheaper to settle and let this idiot go on to sue some other poor schlub of a company. TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 12:51:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AW: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Franke, Hans wrote: > Whats wrong with that ? When I read it, I came away with the conclusion that the scrapping happened recently. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 5 13:35:30 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:35:30 -0400 (edt) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 5, 05 10:49:08 am Message-ID: <200508051835.OAA16768@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even > to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that > Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash > Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided > both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet > for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to > compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days... How much memory does Flash Attack! require? Do you know if it will work on all the PETs? Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time? Thanks, Bryan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 13:50:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:50:47 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <200508051835.OAA16768@wordstock.com> References: <200508051835.OAA16768@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 8/5/05, Bryan Pope wrote: > How much memory does Flash Attack! require? 8K? If not, 16K should work. > Do you know if it will work on all the PETs? I don't remember what ROMs it was for, but it is old enough that it was probably for BASIC 2.0 ROMs (not original chicklet-key PETs, and not 4032s and 8032s). There may or may not be a BASIC 4.0 version. I never owned the program, but I did have a PET back in those days, and the article in Byte describing the game. Later, I hooked up my PET to my new C-64 and invented my own version of the cable and the byte primitives. I didn't have a disk drive or a serial port on the PET, so it was a great way to move data between the two machines. > Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time? No. It uses a user-port-to-user-port cable. The user port doesn't use multi-drop or open-collector buffers, so you can only have one machine on each end of the wire. Theoretically, one could design a ring structure to hook A to B, B to C, and C to A, then invent some sort of token passing mechanism, but the Flash Attack cable is strictly A to B. -ethan From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 5 14:37:06 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:37:06 +0100 Subject: HP1000 A700 - what can I do with it? Message-ID: <200508051946.j75JknwO069541@keith.ezwind.net> Whoohoo! Finally, I will get to play with my HP A700 again! After it mouldering in my "oop north" shed for a couple of years, the A700 is to be reunited with me "dahn saahf". Question is, what - if anything - can I do with it? I don't mind if it's just messing around with some assembler/interpreted basic/etc., but I haven't the first clue about what's installed on it or anything. All I can tell you is it has 1024KB of memory... I no longer have any HP terminals, and none of the 3 I did have worked in any particularly meaningful way - the closest I got was a bootup screen, which can be seen here: http://www.classic-micros.co.uk/hp1000/r1024x768/A700BootScreen.JPG Or even bigger, here: http://www.classic-micros.co.uk/hp1000/r1600x1200/A700BootScreen.JPG However, nothing worked on the keyboard, so I couldn't get any further testing. So, does anyone have any clues as to what I need to do to get the beast talking? Inside the top cabinet, we have this view: http://www.classic-micros.co.uk/hp1000/r1024x768/A700TopOpen.JPG Bigger version (1600x1200) here: http://www.classic-micros.co.uk/hp1000/r1600x1200/A700TopOpen.JPG At the very bottom, you can see the serial comms cable coming out of the floor (the machine is in the lower portion of the cab), which comes round to the front of the serial panel next to the "0" connector. Connected to the "0" connector was the HP terminal pictured in the boot screen. I don't recall getting any life at all out of the other connectors. I will be able to post exact part numbers next week, but if anyone has any idea how a DB25 connector should be wired to allow a dumb terminal (probably AbsoluteTelnet on my PC) to talk to it? Should I optoisolate my PC from the HP - I wouldn't want to fry either of them, but my PC in particular, as I need it every day, sadly). Other pix (all of which have been seen here before) can be viewed here: http://www.classic-micros.co.uk/hp1000 This includes 2 HP1000F series machines, one of which I hope will join the A700 in the fairly near future. Cheers, Ade. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Fri Aug 5 14:54:03 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:54:03 -0500 Subject: Need cheap QBus pertec tape control. Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm in need of a QBUS tape controller for a Pertec drive that does at least 1600BPI. Looking to pay ~$15 for it, as that's about all I can afford. Email me if you think you can help me out ;) Julian From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Fri Aug 5 14:54:15 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:54:15 -0500 Subject: Drives and UC07 Message-ID: I'm trying to set up a drive to work on my recently-acquired UC07 SCSI controller. It's in a PDP 11/23 PLUS. So far I have tried 3 drives: Seagate ST32105N, 2.15GB DEC RH31K-AW (Quantum, unknown model), 1.07GB Quantum LP105S, 105MB Here are the results: Seagate disk: Recognized, fails firmware format DEC disk: Recognized, seems to format successfully in firmware, fails RSTS/E DSKINT Quantum disk: Works fine, no problems. So I know my controller is working. All I really want to do is have about 500MB available to manipulate. I tested with the 100MB disk so I could make sure it worked. I have a second related question - What are the MEDIA IDs for? i.e. 0-RA81, 1 - RA82, 3 - RA90, 4 - RA91, 5 - RA92, 6 - RD54. The only place I see this doing anything is in HARDWR LIST, and it will show whatever media ID you pick. If I could get the space/functionality of an RA81 or 82 on this machine, that would be great. Can someone help me out? Thanks Julian . From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 5 15:06:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:06:30 -0700 Subject: HP1000 A700 - what can I do with it? Message-ID: you appear to have an HP 1000 A-series and a 7914 disc/tape combo. in theory, you should be able to boot from the disc, assuming there is anything left of it since the heads probably weren't locked when it was moved. the software would have been loaded from the 1/4 cartridge tape but it doesn't look like you got any of those. it would be a good thing to read those HP 1/2 distribution tapes that go with the other system. jotting down what's written on the labels will reveal addtional clues on how the systems were used. they were probably running RTE-A on the A700 and some version of 6VM on the 1000Fs -- I may have the A-series CE manual. A and L series are sort of new relative to the manual archive that was saved. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 15:08:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: <200508051835.OAA16768@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > > TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even > > to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that > > Apple sent along with their Communications Card. I have an original Flash > > Attack! tape and custom cable (thanks to Larry Anderson who provided > > both). I managed to find a new, unopened copy of Commbat on the internet > > for $10. It's also on cassette. I never got to play with Commbat to > > compare it with Flash Attack! One of these days... > > How much memory does Flash Attack! require? Do you know if it will work > on all the PETs? Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time? I believe it runs on an original 4K PET. At least that's what I think I was using for the demo (the attorneys wanted the most original setup possible). Since I only have one original PET I borrowed one from Larry Anderson and we got it up and running on both. I'm not sure now if both or either were upgraded to 8K but I think it's safe to assume they are 4K. Next time I see the tape (it's around here somewhere :) I'll try to make a digital image of it. Does anyone know if the cassette format on the PET is compatible with something more modern like the C64? That way it'd be easier to transfer it to the C64, then from the C64 to a PC (by way of an X1541 cable). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 15:10:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Do you know if it will work on all the PETs? > > I don't remember what ROMs it was for, but it is old enough that it > was probably for BASIC 2.0 ROMs (not original chicklet-key PETs, and We did run it on original chiclet-key PETs. I now remember Larry saying it wouldn't work on the newer PETs, which is why I had to borrow one of his. I'll have to check memory requirements again. I think it is probably stamped on the tape. > not 4032s and 8032s). There may or may not be a BASIC 4.0 version. > I never owned the program, but I did have a PET back in those days, > and the article in Byte describing the game. Later, I hooked up my Right, and the article also described how to make the cable. > PET to my new C-64 and invented my own version of the cable and the > byte primitives. I didn't have a disk drive or a serial port on the > PET, so it was a great way to move data between the two machines. Neat. > > Is it possible to hookup more then two PETs at a time? > > No. It uses a user-port-to-user-port cable. The user port doesn't > use multi-drop or open-collector buffers, so you can only have one > machine on each end of the wire. > > Theoretically, one could design a ring structure to hook A to B, B to > C, and C to A, then invent some sort of token passing mechanism, but > the Flash Attack cable is strictly A to B. Right. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Aug 5 15:42:07 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:42:07 +0100 Subject: HP2648A terminal Message-ID: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, does anyone have a manual for one of these? It says graphics terminal on it, is it a vector terminal like the Tektronix units, or some other device? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 5 15:41:09 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:41:09 +0100 Subject: HP1000 A700 - what can I do with it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508052050.j75KojDg070236@keith.ezwind.net> Unfortunately, the 1/2 inch tapes all went along with one of the F series, as well as all of the disk packs & one of the disk drives. Where is the locking mechanism for the A700's harddrive? How can I check whether it is locked or not? If it is locked, and was powered up, will that have damaged/destroyed the disk? I do have some 1/4 cartridges, I think. Not sure how many or what they are labelled with until I get up north tho. Any ideas about incantations & terminal wiring would be much appreciated. I have some RTE manuals, I think they relate to the A-series; not sure if there's any hardware reference information in them... Cheers, Ade. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: 05 August 2005 21:07 To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP1000 A700 - what can I do with it? you appear to have an HP 1000 A-series and a 7914 disc/tape combo. in theory, you should be able to boot from the disc, assuming there is anything left of it since the heads probably weren't locked when it was moved. the software would have been loaded from the 1/4 cartridge tape but it doesn't look like you got any of those. it would be a good thing to read those HP 1/2 distribution tapes that go with the other system. jotting down what's written on the labels will reveal addtional clues on how the systems were used. they were probably running RTE-A on the A700 and some version of 6VM on the 1000Fs -- I may have the A-series CE manual. A and L series are sort of new relative to the manual archive that was saved. -- -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 5 15:51:37 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS, maybe: 8/e, DF/DS32 Message-ID: I am on the fence with this one - I recently obtained a PDP-8/e with a DF/DS32 fixed disk pair and an ASR-33, with two H960 racks, and I am thinking of selling it. I am not sure about it - I sold most of my PDP-8s a few years back, and somewhat regretted it, but times have changed, I need space and soforth. Interested parties can contact me offlist and convince me that I do not need this stuff. I am pretty darn certain one of the racks (sorry, no sides) HAS to go, so if someone local (10512) needs a rack REALLY cheap... Will "shutting up about cameras" Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 5 16:11:47 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:11:47 -0700 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: Roger Merchberger wrote: >> there are a few contraptions out there by which you >> can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... > > Not to mention the Tandy Color Computer: Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? -- Jim Leonard For newer PCs, try this: http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm Good board. We use a lot of them for testing our 1" drive. Billy From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 5 16:42:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:42:14 -0400 Subject: Lost Projects Message-ID: <0IKR00LJMQWVGRS1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Lost Projects > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:44:58 +0000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 11:11 -0400, John Allain wrote: >> This thought crossed my mind many moons ago offline, >> here it is on-list. >> >> If the amount of lost time spent reading offtopic and other >> time wasting threads is were counted up >> >> assume >> 800 readers, 100 full-time, 700 part time >> 80+ posts a day, 30,000 a year >> 1 second to read a header, 10 seconds to skim a post >> 1/3 of posts off-topic and other >> >> then time wasted is >> 100 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 10 / 3,600 ~= 2,800 >> +700 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 1 / 3,600 ~= 1,900 >> = 4,700 = 2 1/3 man-Years wasted > >Don't we all just look at the subject line and ditch messages that >aren't of interest to us (OT or just not something that suits our >individual tastes)? > >Plus, didn't you miss out days in the above calculation? Even assuming >the ten second part is correct, isn't it: > > 100 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 10 / 3,600 ~= 2,800 hours > +700 x 1/3 x 30,000 x 1 / 3,600 ~= 1,900 hours > > = 4,700 hours = 196 man-days (approx 1/2 man-year) > >I think that's an order of magnitude less than time spent in the >bathroom... :-) > >cheers It's enough that I used a lightweight fast mailer that only gets headers so I can mark them for deletion. There is a fair amount of junk traffic. At some point I plan to move to CCtech as I understand on topic is a rule and the traffic lower. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 5 16:59:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> > >> there are a few contraptions out there by which you > >> can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into PCMCIA dlots. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 17:57:25 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:57:25 -0700 Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e9050805155743d43ed6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/5/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have a manual for one of these? It says graphics terminal on it, > is it a vector terminal like the Tektronix units, or some other device? > > Thanks > > Jim. > It's a raster graphcis terminal, not vector. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 5 14:09:23 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:09:23 +0000 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050805230449.SYSK21470.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> there are a few contraptions out there by which you > >> can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... > > > > Not to mention the Tandy Color Computer: > > Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? > -- > Jim Leonard > > > For newer PCs, try this: > > http://www.pcengines.ch/cflash.htm > > Good board. We use a lot of them for testing our 1" drive. > > Billy I have 3.5" and the 2.5" adapters made by 2002 PC Engines. Quality is awesome. I only have couple comments: 2.5" CF adapter design (CFDISK.2D). Two complaints: mine uses 90 deg 44pin IDE on wrong side so doesn't fit well in notebook IDE trays, should had been reversed (physically and electrically) 44 pin connector to other side and use of stand offs via old style and new style 2.5" mounting patterns. These only use newer mountings pattern. There is plenty of older notebooks with old mounting pattern. Oh, don't try to use these adapters in older thinkpads. Too dumb bios hd detection, doesn't work. And no provisions to allow custom settings input into CMOS settings. Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 16:47:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:47:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050804213932.3e8f0d2a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 4, 5 09:39:32 pm Message-ID: > >I thought the manuals were on bitsavers. The PSU pinout should be in > >there. > > Yes, the manuals are on Bit-savers but IIRC they don't recall them > giving any details about the PSU. I will admit that I've not looked at the manuals on Bitsavers, because I have a real printed manual (actually the DRI version, but it's the same drive). That manual has a section on the PSU, I assumed the Diablo one did too. I assume the manual contains a schematic of the drive. If you can't find the pinout of the power connector from that, they you can easily buzz out the connections from the pins on the connector on your drive to the various voltage rails on the drive mainboard. As I said I think there are only 3 connections ot the PSU (with multiple pins for each), ground, +15V, -15V. > >The Diablo terminator is a PCB stuffed with resistors soldered to the > >connector. There's a +5V pin on the connector to power the terminator, of > >course. I have _one_ of them, I also have 2 drives and the > >interconnecting cables, so it's not up for grabs. > > Do you have schematics for any of those? Probably, but you don't need them. I'd try a 180 Ohm resistor from each signal to +5V and a 390 Ohm from each signal to ground. The pinout of the connector should be in the manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 16:52:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:52:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 4, 5 08:45:30 pm Message-ID: > Have you seen the output from 6 or 8 megapixel cameras? A 35 mm > camera doesn't easily beat that, if at all. Hmmm.. I reckon that a good 35mm camera (good meaning a top-end lens and fine grain film) is equivalent to 12-20 megapixels. Rmemeber there is a big differnce between 'sharpness' (which can be fiddled later with a digital camera) and resolution (i.e. the ability to see fine detail in the image). Large format film is between 0.5 to 1 _gigapixel_ IMHO. > > Also, once you figure in the postprocessing all the way to press, > film isn't necessarily easier or cheaper anymore. Sure you get a nice > negative. Now you have to scan it, on a drum scanner if you want to > keep all those pixels. ... True, but that's no reason not to record them in the first place. You can always loose information (e.g. by scanning at a lower resolution), you can never gain it. In other words, if I take a large-format film picture of something, I can always scan the negative or a print made from it and, say, produce an 8Mpixel image (which would be considerably poorer than the original film image). But if you take an 8Mpixel image with a digital camera, no way can you then produce something equivalent to my film. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:24:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:24:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 5, 5 11:32:16 am Message-ID: > > The question is not analog vs. digital photography. The question is when > to use what of those two mediums. They are entirely different mediums, I agree 100%. I can see plenty of times where digital photography is appropriate -- the most obvious one being press work where you gain the ability to quickly trasnmit your picture across the world if necessary. This, however, does not mean that digitial photography is appropriate for _all_ situations. I haev mentioned that I think the best cammera to use for photographic classic comptuers is a large-format camera, probably a monorail. This doesn't mean it 's the best camera for all situations (I'd love to see you attempt sports photography with one ;-)). Much of what I'm interested in photographing is either small-ish closeup objects (bits of classic computers :-)), or old architecture. The large format camera is good for both of those. But note I said most, not all. I do have plenty of other cameras, including 35mm. If i'm just wandering around as a tourist, I'll take a reasonable 35mm SLR and a couple of extra lenses (I prefer fixed focal length lenses to zooms for 2 reasons, (a) they tend to bave better resolution and (b) you tend to move around to get the best composition of your photograph rather than standing in one place and zooming until it looks right. The former generally leads to better-composed pictures). And even for classic computer photography there are times when I'd use 35mm. The obvious one is if I want to take slides to illustrate a talk I'm giving. Most lecture rooms have a 35mm projector. Rather fewer have a medium format (6*6cm image) or large format projector. And yes, I'll admit it. I like the feel and handling of some classic cameras. [...] > paper. I am using a medium format camera (Kiev 88) as this is the > minimum format to get acceptable results for this print size. Completely off-topic, but I was looking for an HP manual the other day and I came across the original _service_ manual for the Kiev 88 and 88TTL, in English (the other Kiev manuals I have, for the 19 and 60 series are in Russian...). I have no intention of selling this manual (I might get such a camera one day), but I can certainly look things up if you ever need to get inside. You didn't think I only had service data for old computers, did you :-).. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 16:59:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:59:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <20050804210238.6d03ffad.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Aug 4, 5 09:02:38 pm Message-ID: > You can buy a 4x5 'digital back' for that camera. A quick google search In principle, yes (it would fit, all my large format stuff has the 'international back'). In practice IO can't afford one. The cheapest I've seen was \pounds 18000, jsut for the back (and control unit). > brings up places that mention them, but I can't find a place that lists > a typical price. I know they used to cost about the same as a luxury > sports car, so it's probably not an online 'shopping cart' item to > purchase. I know somebody who'd used on, a decidedly more expensive one than that, too. His comment was that it's a great replacement for the Polaroid back [1], but that fine grain sheet film _still_ beats it. Even thought the large format Polaroid film is expensive, I can still get quite a bit of it for the price of the digital back. [1] For those who don't know this sort of camera, they're very modular and hackahle. You can put various things on the back -- a sheet film holder (normally called a 'double dark slide'), a roll film holder, Polaroid film holder, focussing/viewing screen, digital sensor, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:28:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:28:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> from "John Foust" at Aug 5, 5 08:14:44 am Message-ID: > You like analog cameras and lots of pictures? Great, take one > along with your digital. You're stingy with film and you don't even > realize it. You won't be with digital. I've read, several times, that because large format film is relatively expensive per shot, you spend a lot of time setting up the camera for each picture, making sure things are just right so you don't waste film. The result, at least for static subjects, is that the qulaity of your photography improves _because_ you stop to think what you are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:02:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:02:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: H734-A power supply In-Reply-To: <20050805022118.D1521182C1D@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 4, 5 07:21:18 pm Message-ID: > > > Joe, that is the correct number. Pat had one that I bought a few > months ago. It takes up roughly 5" of rack space, and is the usual Are you sure? I've never seen one (but I do have the printset somewhere), I thought it was a 10.5" unit, not very deep, like the H720 supply used to power the RK11-C. Maybe I misrememebred or there were several versions. > black rack mounted looking ps. It will be marked with the +/- 15v > rating and there should be one or two small Winchester power supply > connectors on it. > > I also misposted in my last msg. RK03's were the 2 meg version > like RK05's RK02's were 1/2 the track density. As Tony pointed > out, the big difference was individual drive select lines on > the diablo, as opposed to 3:8 decoding on rk05's. You can mix To be exact, the RK05 _drive_ could do either (look at the schematics, one of the signals on the interface connector is left open for 1-of-n selects, grounded for binary selects). I can also remember that the RK11-C uses 1-of-n selects and works fine with the RK03 or RK05, the RK11-D uses binary selects and works with the RK05 only. > rk's and diablos as long as you're careful about the drive > selects. Sorting out the select lines might need a couple of chips, but it's not very difficult. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:37:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:37:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805093715.01bd9090@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 5, 5 10:01:51 am Message-ID: > > Show me a consumer film camera made in the last 15 years that doesn't take > batteries in some form or another... Take, or require (the latter meaning that you can still use the camera, with a good range of shutter speeds, without the battery, only the exposure meter doesn't work). IIRC, the new-ish Leica MP doesn't meed a battery other than for the meter, the shutter is totally mechanical. And I believe Nikon have done a limited run of a reproduction of one of their classic S-series rangefinder cameras, that is fully mechanical too. And from the sublime to the ridiculous, those pre-loaded single-use outdoor-only cameras don't contain a battery :-). Mroe seriously, the batteries taken by most film cameras were standard primary batteries and are a lot easier to find than a custom Li-ion or NiMH pack for a digital camera. > Many would say that if you're serious, you're not using 35mm... ;-) I'm an > amateur (at best) and my digital SLR outperforms my old Canon 35mm (in ways > that only I care about! ;-) enough for me to ditch film. 'Course, I will > never, never, never, never take pictures on the level that Tony does. I > don't need equipment like that to take pictures of my kids stuffing > blueberries up their nose. And I wouldn't recomend you tried to use a large format camera for that. It would be totally impractical. Set the thing up, open the shutter, focus and get the movements right on the ground glass screen, close the shutter, set the aperture, slot in the film holder, pull out the dark slide, then expose the film, all without your kids moving. No way... :-) Fortunately, I have several cameras and try to use the most appropriate one for each job. As yet I've never come across a situation where I've felt the need for a digital camera, though. And equally fortunately my classic computers are well enough behaved to stay in one place while I try to photograph them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:11:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:11:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <006801c5997f$4455b0d0$6401a8c0@Wayne> from "Wayne Smith" at Aug 4, 5 10:33:47 pm Message-ID: > You, and a lot of others on this list, don't get it. This isn't a > for-profit enterprise like most conferences. This is a hobbyist show, I don;t think you know what HPCC is. It's an enthusiast-run club, it certainly doesn't exist to make a profit. I think the club has made a loss on the last 2 'full' (2-day) conferences. The expenditure was for things like hiring a room and AV equipment, printing the proceedings, etc. Yes, we charged a fee for everyone who wanted to attend. People who gave a talk, or who contributed in other ways, got a small reduction in this fee. But it wasn't free for anybody. > put on and financed by a hobbyist on a shoestring budget at considerable > risk. I would put up serious money that Sellam in the best years does > little more than break even on the shows he does, and has probably lost > money on some of them. Moreover, if you factored in all of the time > that he and other expend putting on the show, and value it at any > reasonable level (or even at minimum wage), these shows would show a > substantial deficit. All this talk about exhibitors attracting dollars Of course, I am not disputing any of this. I have no problem with people having to pay to attend. What I find ridiculous is that those who put the time in, ad essentially make the show what it is, have to pay, while the public get in free. Either charge everybody (exhibitors and vistors) the same amount, or give a small reduction to the exhibitors (no, I don't think it should be free for anyone). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:49:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:49:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <002701c599d1$12dfd240$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Aug 5, 5 11:19:28 am Message-ID: > I understand that the jump from the PC/1981 to XT/1983 > made it possible to boot from a HD, otherwise a floppy > had to be involved. I am pretty sure some later PC BIOSes (not XT ones, specifically) allowed booting from a hard disk. More exactly, what was added was the search for extension ROMs. No IBM PC or XT motherboard BIOS knew anything about hard disks. But the later ones searched for extension ROMs before booting, and if any were found, a routine in each extension ROM was executed. This routine could re-direct software interrupt vectors to point to routines in the ROM, in particular, the bootstrap vector could point to a routine in an extension ROM that would attempt to boot from a hard disk before falling back to the standard floopy drive boot routine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 17:56:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:56:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 5, 5 10:49:08 am Message-ID: > TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even > to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that What did the COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card (a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's hard to see how you could have less than that. Actually, I must post details of the odd Apple ][ cards I've got. I know I've got some kind of speech input card somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 18:07:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 00:07:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Aug 5, 5 09:42:07 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > does anyone have a manual for one of these? It says graphics terminal on it, > is it a vector terminal like the Tektronix units, or some other device? I think it's a raster-scanned terminal, with a bitmap-like graphics board in it. Did HP ever make a vector _terminal_ (as opposed to a vector display device, they certainly made those). A useful site for older large (not handheld) HP machines is http://www.hpmuseum.net. The chap who runs it has a lot more manuals scanned that he can't host on his site, and he seems to approve of anyone who wants to preserve HP machines. He's provided me with information by private e-mail in the past. Worth asking him anyway (his contact details are on the site somewhere). -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 18:43:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:43:55 -0500 Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: References: <200508051835.OAA16768@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 8/5/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Next time I see the tape (it's around here somewhere :) I'll try to make a > digital image of it. Does anyone know if the cassette format on the PET > is compatible with something more modern like the C64? The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory maps are not. What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at once. You can move the location of screen memory around on the C-64 and get it away from $0400, and move the start of BASIC pointers, etc., to more closely resemble the PET map. If the program is 100% BASIC, then you could load it there and use some other transfer technique to get it off. If you have the "PET Emulator" for the C-64 handy, it does all the pointer fiddling. If you have a BASIC 2.0 PET handy (I wouldn't recommend this with an original PET) and a 3040 or 4040 disk drive, you could load the program on the PET, save it to diskette, then move the diskette to a 1541 and pull the program in with an X1541 cable. There were also programs back in the day to migrate tape programs right to disk. This would be a good path if you had a whole PET setup. Unfortunately, bit-level tape compatibility doesn't encompass the whole problem. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 19:13:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:13:43 +0000 Subject: Totally OT: email directories? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1123287223.31081.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 23:12 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Many moons ago, there used to be directories of email address. While > not the most complete, they could be useful for tracking people down. > I'm searching for a couple of people that I used to work with, and am > wondering if anything like this exists in a modern sense. No idea. I used to use deja/google's usenet archive for this as it used to be really handy (particularly when it came to messing with obscure vintage computers!). Of course they don't display the whole email address in the archives any more, so it's no longer possible to do this :-( From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 5 19:40:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a quick question Message-ID: <200508060040.RAA13589@clulw009.amd.com> Hi When did the SX386 come out?? Dwight From news at computercollector.com Fri Aug 5 19:46:09 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:46:09 -0400 Subject: Totally OT: email directories? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508060055.j760tCN3072564@keith.ezwind.net> My experience has been that it's easiest to search for names via Google, find out where the live / work, and then pick up the telephone. We can be so addicted to email today that it's easy to forget about dialing 411. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 3:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Totally OT: email directories? On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Many moons ago, there used to be directories of email address. While > not the most complete, they could be useful for tracking people down. > I'm searching for a couple of people that I used to work with, and am > wondering if anything like this exists in a modern sense. Ideally I > want something that can search on user names, as I know the ones > they're most likely using. Will post thius publicly because it's quite useful. I used it to find a good old friend from high school recently (just using the free service). http://www.zabasearch.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 5 19:48:13 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:48:13 -0400 Subject: Modulators & Cassette cables for sale In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050805060038c9d54a@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050805060038c9d54a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050805204718.03a45020@pop-server> The price is $7 each (any 3 for $18) plus shipping This price is for members of CC & TI lists only you must mention that you saw the price on this list TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW TI Home Computer 99/4A Cassette Cable NEW Model # PHA 2622 TI Home Computer 99/4A Dual Cassette Cable NEW one w/2 leads 1/with 3 PHA 2000 Paypal, cash, check or money order From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 20:00:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:00:32 +0000 Subject: Totally OT: email directories? In-Reply-To: <200508060055.j760tCN3072564@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508060055.j760tCN3072564@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1123290032.31098.62.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 20:46 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > My experience has been that it's easiest to search for names via Google, > find out where the live / work, and then pick up the telephone. Yep, there is that - at least when the person you're trying to reach is in the same country anyway (although international call prices are pretty cheap these days, at least from the UK) > We can be so addicted to email today that it's easy to forget about dialing > 411. I just tried that from here and get a "number disconnected" message ;) cheers Jules -- "I was nauseous and tingly all over. I was either in love or I had smallpox." From technobug at comcast.net Fri Aug 5 20:06:59 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:06:59 -0700 Subject: OT: Tektronix 3052 In-Reply-To: <200508060037.j760bB3D084284@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508060037.j760bB3D084284@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <883270FF-2F44-4715-95D4-157E38AAA31A@comcast.net> Sort of on topic: 68000/Unix/Old Rummaging around one of the local scrappers I came across an old Tektronix Spectrum Analyzer that looks like it was implemented in part with VME 68000 modules. The beast ( 50 kg ++) was demil'ed and consequently the disk is now in very small pieces. From what I can find out, it ran a version of UNIX. Anyone have knowledge, software, manuals for such a beast? CRC From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 21:42:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > What I find ridiculous is that those who put the time in, ad essentially > make the show what it is, have to pay, while the public get in free. > Either charge everybody (exhibitors and vistors) the same amount, or give > a small reduction to the exhibitors (no, I don't think it should be free > for anyone). Tony, Why don't you start your own event and charge whatever the hell you god damn well please and stop commenting about shit you know nothing about? I see 5 messages of yours responding to way off-topic messages that say "DIE DIE DIE" in the subject and then I recall all your bitching about having to pay by the minute to download messages. I would hope you'd have more sense but I guess I misjudged you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 5 21:49:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:49:42 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: References: <002701c599d1$12dfd240$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050805214942.6f0b8b0d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:49:45 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I understand that the jump from the PC/1981 to XT/1983 > > made it possible to boot from a HD, otherwise a floppy > > had to be involved. > > I am pretty sure some later PC BIOSes (not XT ones, specifically) > allowed booting from a hard disk. > > More exactly, what was added was the search for extension ROMs. No IBM > PC or XT motherboard BIOS knew anything about hard disks. But the > later ones searched for extension ROMs before booting, and if any were > found, a routine in each extension ROM was executed. This routine > could re-direct software interrupt vectors to point to routines in the > ROM, in particular, the bootstrap vector could point to a routine in > an extension ROM that would attempt to boot from a hard disk before > falling back to the standard floopy drive boot routine. > That's interesting, because I thought that BIOS extension ROMs were part of the 'PC Standard' from the beginning. I'm not disputing you at all, btw. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 21:55:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > TelePong requires the somewhat rare Apple Communications Card (prior even > > to the original Apple Serial Card) and I have the original cassette that > > What did the COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of > Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card > (a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's > hard to see how you could have less than that. I don't have the card to hand but I have the manual here. It's real simple, like the Disk ][ controller. Two 74161, a 7474, a 6309, a 6850, and a DP8304. It can do up to 4800 baud. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 5 22:04:17 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:04:17 -0500 Subject: H734-A power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508052204.17544.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Friday 05 August 2005 05:02 pm: > > Joe, that is the correct number. Pat had one that I bought a few > > months ago. It takes up roughly 5" of rack space, and is the usual > > Are you sure? I've never seen one (but I do have the printset > somewhere), I thought it was a 10.5" unit, not very deep, like the > H720 supply used to power the RK11-C. Maybe I misrememebred or there > were several versions. The one I sold to Al was 3U tall (5.25"), about the same size as a power controller for a PDP11 rack or VAX 11/780. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 5 21:57:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 19:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory maps are not. > What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and > $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your > mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at > once. Okay, so how about just being able to load it as a straight binary stream into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then transferring the image to a PC? Possible? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 5 22:10:46 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 04:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) Message-ID: <20050806031046.31252.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Next time I see the tape (it's around here somewhere :) I'll > try to make a digital image of it. You may like to look here first .. http://www.portcommodore.com/flashindex.php?path=main-cbmidx- Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 5 22:29:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:29:36 -0500 Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) References: Message-ID: <009b01c59a37$12d73660$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ethan wrote.... >> The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory maps are not. >> What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and >> $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your >> mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at >> once. To which Sellam replied... > Okay, so how about just being able to load it as a straight binary stream > into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then > transferring the image to a PC? > > Possible? Well, you may never find out, seeing as you just really stomped on the person most likely to have a good answer to this. Jay From rcini at optonline.net Fri Aug 5 22:42:05 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:42:05 -0400 Subject: Altair serial port update Message-ID: <003601c59a38$d06b34a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Word to the wise -- always check the cabling. I've been wracking my brain this week on the serial port problems with my Altair. I wired the serial board cable per the manual but I never checked if it was NULL or not. Well, when I put a null adapter on the cable, it worked! Whoo, hoo. So with the board configured as an Altair Revision 1 SIO board (ports 0/1), I toggled in the standard tape loader set for 8k BASIC. I used Terra Term Pro to send the file at 1200 baud. I saw the data echoed to the screen but no joy. I never get the "MEMORY SIZE?" prompt, even after fiddling with the sense switches. I hate to be a pest, but is there something I'm missing? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 5 23:30:00 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 05, 2005 11:58:52 AM Message-ID: <20050806043001.2338F73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > On Fri, 2005-08-05 at 11:32 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > The question is not analog vs. digital photography. The question is when > > to use what of those two mediums. They are entirely different mediums, > > each with its special strengths and weakneses. > > One thing I found when travelling is that it's much nicer to have a > conventional analogue film camera vs. digital. It's easy to get hold of > film (and batteries if needed) pretty much anywhere, but with digital > you have to worry about being able to recharge the camera batteries, > finding somewhere to download data off the camera every so often (or > take enough CF cards with you to cover the amount of photos you're > likely to take) etc. I found the opposite. I recently took a trip to Las Vegas and over five days took 426 photos. Assuming I used 36-picture rolls of 35mm film, that would have been 12 canisters, and again assuming I spent $10 total for each canister (film + developing) I would have spent $120---instead I spent about $10 for a package of AA batteries (since I didn't want to have to worry about rechargables during the trip). I did have my laptop and once or twice a day I would dump the pictures from the camera. Just this year alone I've taken enough pictures (over 1100) to justify the price of the camera (which I got two years ago). However, I would *still* love to use my 35mm SLR, but compared to my digital, it's not really cost effective anymore (at least, at my level of ability, and besides, the digital camera I can fit into my pocket and take everywhere with me---I really can't do with with my SLR). -spc (In fact, I think I've taken more photographs in the last two months than I did in two semesters of photography in college ... ) From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 5 20:33:50 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:33:50 +0000 Subject: a quick question In-Reply-To: <200508060040.RAA13589@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050806052915.GAZV26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:40:50 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: a quick question > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Hi > When did the SX386 come out?? > Dwight Dwight, The suffix goes after the cpu number. Full number is 80386, there are two kinds, 386DX (full 32bits) and crippled version of 386 is 386SX is narrowed down to 16bits data path to the pins but rest of core is true 386. Reason for 386SX came out was it is crippled in performance for a reason not to cut into 386DX price/performance and can be fitted easily into 286 chipset design with minimum design and new set of BIOS programming. Came out mid 1989 by the way, appox same time as 486DX, shortly after then 486SX as well. I never liked 386SX except if motherboard had some cache installed with good chipsets. Only time son of 386SX shined was IBM 386SLC and 486SLC2 and 3. They had larger internal caches and performed well. I don't like 486SX either because of no FPU but good in embedded stuff. Thank god that AMD broke down the price barrier when they came out with Am386 and Am486 processors back then. That when I bought 386DX-40 then 486DX-40 couple years afterwards. My first crappy PC in 90 was generic board (sucky C&T chipset anyone? Shudders), with 386DX-25 no cache. I learned fast to use good stuff at that point. Cheers, Wizard From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Aug 6 01:42:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:42:18 -0500 Subject: KILL KILL KILL -- RE: was VCF suggestions / now photography In-Reply-To: <200508051440.j75EelRX063674@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508051440.j75EelRX063674@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42F45BCA.8070804@oldskool.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > No one here cares about your uncle and his jewelry and hand models. > > (Sorry to take it out on you, Steve. Nothing personal...) I came into this thread ON THIS POST and I have to tell you, not knowing anything at all about the entire thread, I am laughing my ass off right now. :-D (Imagine my reaction: Uncle? Jewelry? Hand models?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Aug 6 04:34:29 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:34:29 +0200 Subject: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging pr oject) Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DCD@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ethan, the access that you describe is exactly what I do in my homebrew pdp8/e with the Core & I/O Board! I started out with a real IDE disk but bought an IDE-CF adapter, and it worked right away. BTW, in the source code is a description of the way I connected the IDE/CF card to the I/O Board. I started with an 8-bit datapath, that is fine for sending the commands, but reading the data is of course also 8 bits. In the beginning I did not consider that to be a real loss, but it annoyed me that I could not read properly the IDENT data result (manufacturer, type, size, etc.). So I "upgraded" the data path to 16 bit. But 8 bits works for sure! See www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html (a page that is almost weekly updated!) - Henk, PA8PDP. On 8/5/05, Jim Brain wrote: > The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data register > is 16 bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in order to get > the data from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers nets you 512 > bytes of data, the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 bit addressing > mode, the LBA registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits as well. > > All the IDE code I've looked at does it this way. I believe I have > the ATA r4 spec here that states that as well. > > But, if you've noted a way to switch IDE into 8-bit mode, let me know. This is not an ATA feature I'm talking about, it's a CF feature... >From http://www.compuphase.com/mbr_fat.htm ... you can switch the Compact Flash card to use only 8-bit transfers, in case you need to connect the Compact Flash card to an 8-bit bus. Accessing a drive takes the following steps: 1. The address is asserted on lines A0-A2 and /CS0 + /CS1. In True IDE mode, only three of the address lines of the Compact Flash card are used, in combination with the /CS0 and /CS1 lines which select the "register set". Only either of the /CS0 and /CS1 lines is active (not both at the same time). 2. After a delay of 70 ns (or more), either the /IORD or /IOWR is activated, depending on whether you want to initiate a read or write instruction. The /IORD or /IOWR are the strobes. 3. Another delay, of 165 ns, is needed before inactivating the /IORD or /IOWR lines. At the same time of inactivating the strobe, or immediately before or after inactivating the strobe, you can read or write the data to the D0-D15 lines. 4. Although this is optional, it is recommended that both /CS0 and /CS1 are inactivated at the end of the read or write cycle. You may need another delay here, because a full cycle has also a minimal duration. Instead of a simple idle loop, you may however choose to perform other operations in that time --such as interpreting the data after a read operation, or fetching new data after a write operation. So... again, the problems I'm having are with certain cards and not others. My records of success are 4MB HP - fail, 16MB Kodak - strange behavior/fail, 512MB Simple Technology - fail, SanDisk 1GB - works. I'm just trying to solicit input from anyone who might know a tidbit like "don't try that with cards under 32MB" or some other such nugget of wisdom. I brought up the 8-bit mode thing because it's an unusual use of the CF card and might be relevant. Thanks, -ethan From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Aug 6 06:06:06 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:06:06 -0400 Subject: Henk in NL...Re: CF cards on classic machines (was Re: Another disk imaging project) In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DCD@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DCD@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <42F4999E.7000902@comcast.net> Henk, I noticed you have a Netherlands email address. Would you happen to know Henk Dijkstra ? He also has a PDP machine there, can't remember which one. He belonged to the Linux Users Group there too. It was 8yrs ago since I saw him while working for Lucent in Holland. Back then, we worked together at Betronic in Amsterdam. And he helped me with some programming on a robot project. I lost his email address since then, and I've moved back to the states in '02. I was just wondering how he's doing. thanks, Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Ethan, the access that you describe is exactly what I do in my homebrew >pdp8/e with the Core & I/O Board! I started out with a real IDE disk but >bought an IDE-CF adapter, and it worked right away. >BTW, in the source code is a description of the way I connected the >IDE/CF card to the I/O Board. >I started with an 8-bit datapath, that is fine for sending the commands, >but reading the data is of course also 8 bits. In the beginning I did >not consider that to be a real loss, but it annoyed me that I could not >read properly the IDENT data result (manufacturer, type, size, etc.). >So I "upgraded" the data path to 16 bit. But 8 bits works for sure! >See www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html (a page that is >almost weekly updated!) > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > >On 8/5/05, Jim Brain wrote: > > >>The IDE command registers are all 8-bits wide, but the Data register >>is 16 bits wide. You have to support a 16 bit transfer in order to get >>the data from the sector buffer (256 16 bit transfers nets you 512 >>bytes of data, the IDE std sector). IN the newer 48 bit addressing >>mode, the LBA registers grow from 8 bits to 16 bits as well. >> >>All the IDE code I've looked at does it this way. I believe I have >>the ATA r4 spec here that states that as well. >> >>But, if you've noted a way to switch IDE into 8-bit mode, let me know. >> >> > >This is not an ATA feature I'm talking about, it's a CF feature... > >>From http://www.compuphase.com/mbr_fat.htm ... > >you can switch the Compact Flash card to use only 8-bit transfers, in >case you need to connect the Compact Flash card to an 8-bit bus. > >Accessing a drive takes the following steps: > > 1. The address is asserted on lines A0-A2 and /CS0 + /CS1. In True >IDE mode, only three of the address lines of the Compact Flash card >are used, in combination with the /CS0 and /CS1 lines which select the >"register set". Only either of the /CS0 and /CS1 lines is active (not >both at the same time). > 2. After a delay of 70 ns (or more), either the /IORD or /IOWR is >activated, depending on whether you want to initiate a read or write >instruction. The /IORD or /IOWR are the strobes. > 3. Another delay, of 165 ns, is needed before inactivating the >/IORD or /IOWR lines. At the same time of inactivating the strobe, or >immediately before or after inactivating the strobe, you can read or >write the data to the D0-D15 lines. > 4. Although this is optional, it is recommended that both /CS0 and >/CS1 are inactivated at the end of the read or write cycle. You may >need another delay here, because a full cycle has also a minimal >duration. Instead of a simple idle loop, you may however choose to >perform other operations in that time --such as interpreting the data >after a read operation, or fetching new data after a write operation. > >So... again, the problems I'm having are with certain cards and not >others. My records of success are 4MB HP - fail, 16MB Kodak - strange >behavior/fail, 512MB Simple Technology - fail, SanDisk 1GB - works. > >I'm just trying to solicit input from anyone who might know a tidbit >like "don't try that with cards under 32MB" or some other such nugget >of wisdom. I brought up the 8-bit mode thing because it's an unusual >use of the CF card and might be relevant. > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Aug 6 06:15:14 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:15:14 -0400 Subject: KILL KILL KILL -- RE: was VCF suggestions / now photography In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 06 Aug 2005 01:42:18 CDT." <42F45BCA.8070804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200508061115.j76BFEIs010422@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jim Leonard wrote: >'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >> No one here cares about your uncle and his jewelry and hand models. >> >> (Sorry to take it out on you, Steve. Nothing personal...) > >I came into this thread ON THIS POST and I have to tell you, not knowing >anything at all about the entire thread, I am laughing my ass off right now. >:-D > >(Imagine my reaction: Uncle? Jewelry? Hand models?) actually, I think the comment about high res digital backs for Hasselblads was the most on-topic part of the discussion. My 500CM is certainly over 10 years old :-) -brad From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 6 06:45:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:45:17 -0400 Subject: KILL KILL KILL -- RE: was VCF suggestions / now photography In-Reply-To: <42F45BCA.8070804@oldskool.org> References: <200508051440.j75EelRX063674@keith.ezwind.net> <42F45BCA.8070804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42F4A2CD.nailERE16BBJH@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I have to apologize for contributing to the OT. But a slight explanation, if not excuse: I spend way too much time of my day sitting in front of a keyboard and CRT. Digital photography generally implies plugging a camera into a modern PC-clone running windows and doing some point-and-drool. (Yes, I know, many cameras can be plugged into a Linux box, and some don't even require a computer if you plug the camera straight into a printer.) Anything that reduces my amount of time sitting in front of a modern computer is a good thing, and doing stuff in the darkroom is an example of a "good thing" activity. Tim. From eric at rothfus.com Sat Aug 6 09:45:23 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:45:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project (long response) In-Reply-To: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> (message from Dave Dunfield on Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:53:11 -0400) References: <20050803145303.RHXK11224.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1123336648@rothfus.com> > > ...discussion of "universal floppy controller thingy"... > Sorry to join this thread late, but I think it would be a fantastic idea/project to create this universal vintage computer floppy controller. Of course, I WOULD think so, since I've been working on part of the idea for the past couple of years - the Semi-Virtual Diskette (SVD) http://www.theSVD.com . Feel free to download the software from the site to get an idea of what the control system looks like. There seems to be at least four catagories/layers of functionality that would be appropriate for this type of device as detailed below (in no particular order). There's enough overlap of these areas that a single device could be built to fulfill all of the features. --- Floppy Emulation The idea behind floppy emulation is to provide a solid-state mechanism that would allow vintage machines to boot/read/write directly from/to diskette images without the need for a physical floppy drive or physical floppies. Given, particularly, that floppy media has a degrading lifespan, this type of device makes it far easier to operate vintage gear. Further, this type of device makes it possible to backup/copy diskette images for archival and later use. For purposes of this discussion, it is assumed that the device is NOT a full-fledged PC. So a PC would be a necessary part of the whole solution, being used to archive and upload/download the images to the device. This device would probably not have an off-the-shelf floppy controller, since they are normally meant to operate with a particular encoding such as M/FM for the WD179x. Encodings such as H8/H89, Apple 2, N*, etc. are NOT stock M/FM. Instead, this device would probably have a micro-conroller or processor that would "bit-bang" the same type of floppy control. There is a downside to this type of device. The vintage machine is a necessary part of a "floppy copy" operation. That is, since the device looks just like a floppy drive & floppy to the vintage computer, the computer must run a "copy" operation to make a backup copy of a floppy. If the target diskette is copy- protected, it is quite likely that the vintage machine would not be able to copy it. The SVD that I've been working on for the last couple of years is exactly this type of device. Though the current downside to the SVD is that it must be specifically programmed to support a paricular floppy type. The SVD II will be generic, taking a soft description of the floppy type. This will allow SVD with even previously unsupported platforms. Further, it is locked into 300rpm with 4 micro- second bit cells. --- Stand-alone Floppy Reader/Writer Almost the opposite of the floppy emulator, this device would attach to a vintage floppy drive and extract/write images to and from the floppies inserted in the drive. It could be used to make duplicates of floppies either from physical to image or from image to physical. Through multiple simultaneous floppy drive connections, it could make dynamic copies of floppies whereby the copy would be BETTER than the original. The nice thing about this device is that it wouldn't need to be connected to the vintage computer to make the copy. Further, it need not necessarily know about the encoding mechanism for the floppy, being able to make copies based upon the bit transitions seen on the floppy interface lines. Like the floppy emulator, this device would not be a full-fledged PC, using a periphery PC to up/download images and for configuration. This device would be able to deal with issues such as rotational speed variation and bad sectors probably more effectively than a vintage computer trying to make a copy. However, it would also need to understand and adapt to different mechanisms such as hard-sectored, indexed, and non-indexed floppies (as in Heathkit, WD179x, and Apple 2 floppies respectively). It would need to be configurable to deal with different densities, rotational speeds, sides, tracks, and other floppy physical characteristics. It would also need to be able to generate an appropriate write-precompensated signal. Fortunately, it could be made smart enough to auto-configure itself for write-precomp. --- External Floppy Controller Both of the above devices represent relatively stand-alone functionality, using the PC only for control, configuration, and image storage. Another very interesting device would be one that would act as a dynamic external "vintage floppy controller" for a PC. A specialized PC-based floppy driver could be created that "speaks" to the external controller over a (pick your favorite) parallel/RS232/USB link using sector read/write commands...not unlike the way in which the Commodore 64 or Model 100 interface to floppy drives. Through driver and external device configuration software, the external device will present a vintage floppy drive and floppy to the PC as a simple storage device, allowing it to read/write to it. In addition to read/write commands, other commands would be available to format and download raw sectors and tracks. Although this would be a very _interesting_ device, I feel that it probably goes too far, and that the increased work necessary to create it provides very little extra value. The other two devices above allow you to work with "images" of floppies, which IMHO is enough. --- PC Software Control All of these wonderful features require some form of robust control, such as what can provided by your off-the-shelf PC. Though it wouldn't be a required part of the "function" of the device, it would be a necessary part of the control of the device. Through the PC's extensive user interface as well as its connectivity and storage, it would be able to help configure and control the device as well as provide periphery functions such as: - floppy image analysis, verification, and translation - file system manipulation, including insertion and extraction of individual files I've spent a lot of time on this area, as well, with the SVD. The SVD software runs on both Windoze and Linux PCs, allowing you to upload/download images to the SVD. Further, it understands the filesystems of many of the different vintage boxes include the H8/H89, TRS-80, and Apple, allowing you to download individual files. I'd be happy to collaborate on the creation of new devices in this area. It should be possible to reuse SVD code, or to at least steal some of the ideas. Eric From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Aug 6 12:28:28 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:28:28 -0400 Subject: WTD: CBM Pet 8032 64K memory expansion installation/users guide Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050806132346.00ce9138@mail.degnanco.net> I am looking for a CBM Pet 8032 64K memory expansion installation/users guide. Anyone have a copy or a URL to a copy? I wish to test an expansion card to verify that indeed the 64K is available, and how to address the memory/test the card. Should there be a different "bytes available" message upon boot with the card properly installed vs. no card? Thanks. Bill From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 6 13:04:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: <009b01c59a37$12d73660$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote: > Ethan wrote.... > >> The cassette formats are compatible, but the memory maps are not. > >> What that means is a) BASIC programs start at $0400 on the PET and > >> $0800 on the C-64, and b) you can't do the trick of starting your > >> mixed machine-language/BASIC program at $033A and have both load at > >> once. > > To which Sellam replied... > > Okay, so how about just being able to load it as a straight binary stream > > into some area of the C64 memory and then saving it to disk, then > > transferring the image to a PC? > > > > Possible? > Well, you may never find out, seeing as you just really stomped on the > person most likely to have a good answer to this. Quite frankly, with good reason. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 6 13:11:35 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:11:35 -0400 Subject: YAIDU Message-ID: <20050806181134.IVBB11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> (Yet Another ImageDisk Update) Hi Guys, I've posted version 1.02 of ImageDisk to the site. This was a major code cleanup (it was due), plus a number of enhancements and minor fixes, as well as one MAJOR fix - if enough errors occured to trigger a reanalysis, the sector numbering map for that track could get corrupted. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 6 13:11:40 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:11:40 -0400 Subject: NEC APC disk images posted Message-ID: <20050806181140.IVBW11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Someone was looking for APC software a few days ago.. I've gone through my APC material, and found a total of 9 boxes of disks for the APC and N5200, many of the NEC original masters... I've just added three image archives to my site: MSDOS system/application disks for APC CP/M-86 system/application for APC UCSD p-System disks for APC Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 6 14:26:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 19:26:35 +0000 Subject: Advent Systems? Message-ID: <1123356395.378.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Can anyone shed any light on this? Box of 8" soft-sectored floppies, box labelled "Advent Systems LTD.". Floppies inside: Paint (2 disks) POS G601 Advent users Rectify Utilities Doclayout Docdraw Designer Skan Image compression Manual fonts Roman fonts Rockwell fonts Megaron fonts Map rectify I suspect they might be PERQ disks due to the mention of POS and the fact that there are PERQs on the site where I got them. It'd be nice to confirm that though - googling for anything related to Advent turns up all sorts, and as there are a million and one other flavours of machine on the same site there's no guarantee they're anything to do with PERQs at all. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 15:01:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:01:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Flash Attack! (was Re: Analog modem emulator?) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 5, 5 06:43:55 pm Message-ID: > If you have a BASIC 2.0 PET handy (I wouldn't recommend this with an > original PET) and a 3040 or 4040 disk drive, you could load the > program on the PET, save it to diskette, then move the diskette to a > 1541 and pull the program in with an X1541 cable. There were also > programs back in the day to migrate tape programs right to disk. This > would be a good path if you had a whole PET setup. Alternatively you could connect the PET disk drive to a PC (or other computer) with a GPIB/IEEE-488 interface. The command set for the Commodore drives is well-documented, it shouldn't be hard to write a program to read the file off the disk. I know somebody who saves/loads programes from his Tekky 4052 on a PET disk drive... Of course 1541's are probably easier for most people to find than machine with GPIB ports... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 15:06:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:06:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 5, 5 07:42:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What I find ridiculous is that those who put the time in, ad essentially > > make the show what it is, have to pay, while the public get in free. > > Either charge everybody (exhibitors and vistors) the same amount, or give > > a small reduction to the exhibitors (no, I don't think it should be free > > for anyone). > > Tony, > > Why don't you start your own event and charge whatever the hell you god > damn well please and stop commenting about shit you know nothing about? OK, I admit I don't know as mcuh about it as you do. So could you please explain, in a way that an idiot like me can understand, why it's reasonable to charge people who contribute to the show more than those who just turn up to view. And please read what I've just said. I am not saying that those who contribute should necessarily get in free. I am not saying they should be paid for their time/trouble. Just that they shouldn't pay more than those who do sod all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 15:11:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:11:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 5, 5 07:55:18 pm Message-ID: > > What did the COmmunications Card consist of? Checking one of my boxes of > > Apple ][ bits revealed a Super Serial Card (6551-based) and a Serial Card > > (a bit-banger, a few TTL chips and a couple of PROMs, P7 and P8). It's > > hard to see how you could have less than that. > > I don't have the card to hand but I have the manual here. It's real > simple, like the Disk ][ controller. Two 74161, a 7474, a 6309, a > 6850, and a DP8304. That suprises me. The 6850, of course, is a UART-like chip (well, Motorola call it an ACIA, but it handles the serial-parallel conversions). The Apple Serial Card I have doesn't have any UART, or shift registers, or anything like that. Just a few TTL chips to make a 1 bit I/O port, line drivers (and an opto-isolator for the current loop function), and thr 2 PROMs containing the cotnrol firmware. The serial-parallel conversion is done in software on the Apple's 6502. So what is suprising that the Apple 'went backwards' from a card with hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 15:17:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:17:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair serial port update In-Reply-To: <003601c59a38$d06b34a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Aug 5, 5 11:42:05 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > Word to the wise -- always check the cabling. I've been wracking > my brain this week on the serial port problems with my Altair. I wired > the serial board cable per the manual but I never checked if it was NULL > or not. Well, when I put a null adapter on the cable, it worked! Whoo, > hoo. I don't want to say how many times I've made that sort of mistake :-) Another word to the wise... Get one of those little in-line RS232 testers. The one I have has 7 bi-colour LEDs on it that monitor TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR and CD. I've seen one with more LEDs too. I'm always using mine to cheack whether an RS232 port is wired as a DTE or DCE. Or if it drives any of the handshake lines. I find it a lot more use than my fancier breakout boxes, comms analysers, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 15:25:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:25:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advent Systems? In-Reply-To: <1123356395.378.21.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 6, 5 07:26:35 pm Message-ID: > > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Box of 8" soft-sectored floppies, > box labelled "Advent Systems LTD.". I thought it was Advent Imaging, but anyway... Advent were a major user of PERQs in the UK at one time. I got my T4 (!) from them, and a lot of other fun toys, including a prototyping card, a couple of OIO cards, spares, etc. And even an on-topic digital camera... > > Floppies inside: > > Paint (2 disks) > POS G601 > Advent users > Rectify > Utilities > Doclayout > Docdraw > Designer > Skan > Image compression > Manual fonts > Roman fonts > Rockwell fonts > Megaron fonts > Map rectify > > > I suspect they might be PERQ disks due to the mention of POS and the > fact that there are PERQs on the site where I got them. It'd be nice to I would guess these are PERQ disks. You could try mounting them on a POS machine and/or using the floppy program (they may well be 'interchange format' (close to RT11...) disks). -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 6 16:25:10 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F52AB6.nailKRS1D49UJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > why it's reasonable to charge people who contribute to the show more > than those who just turn up to view. Compare this with academic publishing: in most cases authors are charged an amount $50 or more per page, and the issue itself (while not cheap) is sold to subscribing members/libraries for far less. Just like academic publishing, old computer exhibitions are not generally show biz. And usually the exhibition price is a lot smaller than the money/effort/ time involved (just like academic authorship.) Admittedly usually academic authors use grant money to pay the author fees. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 6 16:31:27 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:31:27 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F52C2F.nailKRS215RQR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The Apple Serial Card I have doesn't have any UART, or shift > registers, or anything like that. Just a few TTL chips to make > a 1 bit I/O port [...] This card was used mainly (but not exclusively!) to drive serial printers. I think the firmware is expressly half-duplex. A far more common and useful card is the slightly later "Super Serial" which has a 6551 UART IIRC. I don't know of any communication programs which supported the non-super card. I think there may have been a revision to the original UARTless serial card's firmware that allowed it to detect flow-control characters from the printer (e.g. XON/XOFF) even though it was half-duplex. Tim. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Aug 6 16:44:53 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:44:53 -0400 Subject: H734-A power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F52F55.1090101@nktelco.net> Tony Duell wrote: >To be exact, the RK05 _drive_ could do either (look at the schematics, >one of the signals on the interface connector is left open for 1-of-n >selects, grounded for binary selects). I can also remember that the >RK11-C uses 1-of-n selects and works fine with the RK03 or RK05, the RK11-D >uses binary selects and works with the RK05 only. > > This is why the RK11-C supports two chains of 4 drives and the RK11-D supports one chain of 8 drives? >-tony > > > I've been doing some RK05 research lately... -chuck From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Aug 6 17:16:14 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) Message-ID: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Scott Stevens wrote: > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > You do realise I paid less than that for my monorail camera. The > > [...] > You can buy a 4x5 'digital back' for that camera. > [...] > You'd also be dealing with 450MB images for each shot. EXACTLY! That is what Tony has been saying all along. You can't get good quality pictures with digital cameras UNLESS you want to spend a fortune for the equipment AND deal with the huge data files. By contrast film combines very high resolution, compact physical dimensions, low cost, AND long life. If you add that you do not require any additional complex supporting equipment to VIEW the images [1] then you must agree that film is the best medium for images you want to enjoy for a long time. Having said that, I do not use film because I prefer the convenience of digital photographs. But I understand the tradeoffs and do not go about telling people that my equipment is better than film or that I produce images that can compete with film. **vp [1] compare this with the CDROM or DVD drive that you will need to read the data, plus an understanding of the encoding/format of the directory structure on the disk and finally the encoding used for the images. Before you say smth about jpg, note that for high quality pictures you would want to keep them in their native (proprietary) raw format. Given the hell that people are having to go through to recover data from old media, there is no doubt in my mind that people will NOT be able to view the digital images they take today, unless they are willing to devote a lot of effort to preserve them by migrating them to new storage and encoding technologies as these are introduced. BTW what are you doing to preserve your VHS tapes? Remember VHS equipment are disappearing fast from the retail market and, in any case, the ones made today will not last for more than a couple of years anyway. From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 17:26:17 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:26:17 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <42F2B1F5.nailLYI16FC00@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: -sigh- Not to just barge in, but I have to throw a comment in SOMEWHERE. We have a (5 megapixel? I think) Canon 10D digital SLR - and enlargments To take an entire sheet of A4 size photo paper show no pixelation at all - and it wasn't many thousands of dollars, more in the $1,500 ragne, if I recall, something similar to what my film setup ran. -ducks out- On 8/4/05 8:25 PM, "Tim Shoppa" wrote: > All that said, if you want a decent-sized calendar then a digital point-and- > shoot is not gonna do the job AT ALL. A very high-end professional > digital camera (many thousands of dollars, but they can be rented) > could do OK at that enlargement size, but even with big flash cards > you'll find that you don't have room for many pictures at high resolution. > Film really is easier and cheaper in this case for this application. > > Tim. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Aug 6 19:12:00 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:12:00 -0400 Subject: computer drawer slides Message-ID: <42F551D0.9010101@nktelco.net> The "drawer slides" on the rack of the PDP-11/40 I am working with are very stiff. Were these originally lubricated? My instincts are to use a little bit of wheel bearing grease, but I was curious, because there was not much residue. -chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 6 20:30:58 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:30:58 -0700 Subject: computer drawer slides In-Reply-To: <42F551D0.9010101@nktelco.net> References: <42F551D0.9010101@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200508061830.58638.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 06 August 2005 17:12, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > The "drawer slides" on the rack of the PDP-11/40 I am working with are > very stiff. Were these originally lubricated? > > My instincts are to use a little bit of wheel bearing grease, but I was > curious, because there was not much residue. I've found that modern silicon based lubricants do wonders for even the stickiest slides... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 20:16:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:16:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <42F52C2F.nailKRS215RQR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 6, 5 05:31:27 pm Message-ID: > > > The Apple Serial Card I have doesn't have any UART, or shift > > registers, or anything like that. Just a few TTL chips to make > > a 1 bit I/O port [...] > > This card was used mainly (but not exclusively!) to drive serial > printers. I think the firmware is expressly half-duplex. Yep... I first came across it driving a Qume Sprint 5 > > A far more common and useful card is the slightly later "Super > Serial" which has a 6551 UART IIRC. Correct. I am not sure it's more common over here, though. I must have 3 or 4 of the bit-bangers, one Super Serial card and a number of 3rd party cards based on the 6850 or 6551. Some of the latter also had parallel ports (6821-based). > I think there may have been a revision to the original UARTless > serial card's firmware that allowed it to detect flow-control > characters from the printer (e.g. XON/XOFF) even though it > was half-duplex. The P8A PROM IIRC. You lost the block-transfer operations (which nobody ever used...). It wasn't XON/XOFF, it was ETX/ACK or something, though. It was certainly required for using the card with that Sprint 5. -tony > > Tim. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 20:17:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:17:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: H734-A power supply In-Reply-To: <42F52F55.1090101@nktelco.net> from "Charles H. Dickman" at Aug 6, 5 05:44:53 pm Message-ID: [Binary .vs. 1-of-n selects on RK disk drives] > This is why the RK11-C supports two chains of 4 drives and the RK11-D > supports one chain of 8 drives? Yes, exactly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 20:24:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 02:24:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: computer drawer slides In-Reply-To: <42F551D0.9010101@nktelco.net> from "Charles H. Dickman" at Aug 6, 5 08:12:00 pm Message-ID: > > The "drawer slides" on the rack of the PDP-11/40 I am working with are > very stiff. Were these originally lubricated? I have wiped a black grease off rack slides, which cuggests it's either dirty grease, graphite grease, or moly grease (molybdenum disulphide grease). > > My instincts are to use a little bit of wheel bearing grease, but I was > curious, because there was not much residue. I would keep graphite grease away from electrical stuff for obvious reasons. But a smear of molu grease, or just plain high melting point bearing grease, will do no harm at all IMHO -tony From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 6 21:13:53 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:13:53 -0400 Subject: Altair serial port update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006f01c59af5$a8525440$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> This is so true. I have one of those boxes on this particular system and it at least tells me what's going on with the lines. At this point I'm at a loss as to what's wrong. I believe that the card works based on the loopback program. It's got to be a problem with the loader and how the paper tape image is coming over the line from the terminal (a laptop). I really need someone with a known-working configuration that uses an SSM card to let me know how it's configured. Otherwise, I'm going to have to setup a trade for a real Altair SIO card. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 4:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair serial port update > > All: > > Word to the wise -- always check the cabling. I've been wracking my > brain this week on the serial port problems with my Altair. I wired > the serial board cable per the manual but I never checked if it was > NULL or not. Well, when I put a null adapter on the cable, it worked! > Whoo, hoo. I don't want to say how many times I've made that sort of mistake :-) Another word to the wise... Get one of those little in-line RS232 testers. The one I have has 7 bi-colour LEDs on it that monitor TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR and CD. I've seen one with more LEDs too. I'm always using mine to cheack whether an RS232 port is wired as a DTE or DCE. Or if it drives any of the handshake lines. I find it a lot more use than my fancier breakout boxes, comms analysers, etc. -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Aug 6 22:17:20 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:17:20 -0500 Subject: HP 1631A/D logic analyzer manual -- free Message-ID: <42F57D40.80600@pacbell.net> Is there anybody out in classiccmp land with an hp1631 analyzer that doesn't have the manual? If so, I have an extra I can send to you. Chapters: 1 -- general information 2 -- installation 3 -- front panel controls and menu map 4 -- analog measurements 5 -- timing measurements 6 -- state measurements 7 -- performance analyssis measurements 8 -- interactive measurements 9 -- peripherals 10 -- using hpib or hpil interface appendices From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Aug 6 22:35:49 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:35:49 -0500 Subject: biomation software and lead sets: free Message-ID: <42F58195.6070403@pacbell.net> I forgot to add this to my other posting. I have two floppies in perfect condition in their original holder labelled: GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER P/N 0117-0397-01 REVISION 50 1989 GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER P/N 0117-0397-02 REVISION 50 1989 Also I have 14 lead sets for a gould/biomation logic analyzer. Each one has about a dozen wires coming out. No grabbers though. These were bought separately from the floppy above. I bought them a long time ago after seeing a lot of biomation logic analyzers at foothill and livermore without the leads (or pods) so when I saw the lead sets at weirdstuff, I grabbed them. Then as things turned out, I ended up getting an HP logic analyzer instead of a biomation. Free. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Aug 6 23:21:19 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:21:19 -0500 Subject: HP 1631A/D logic analyzer manual -- CLAIMED! In-Reply-To: <42F57D40.80600@pacbell.net> References: <42F57D40.80600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42F58C3F.8080707@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Is there anybody out in classiccmp land with an hp1631 analyzer that > doesn't have the manual? If so, I have an extra I can send to you. > > Chapters: > 1 -- general information > 2 -- installation > 3 -- front panel controls and menu map > 4 -- analog measurements > 5 -- timing measurements > 6 -- state measurements > 7 -- performance analyssis measurements > 8 -- interactive measurements > 9 -- peripherals > 10 -- using hpib or hpil interface > appendices It has been claimed already. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 7 01:18:57 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:18:57 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>there are a few contraptions out there by which you >>>>can connect a CF or SD card to a Commodore 64,... > > On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? > > There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into > PCMCIA dlots. 8-bit ISA adapters? To clarify: I want to add "solid state" storage to a 1982 IBM PC rev B. machine (to see if I can get any faster I/O than the MFM drive hooked up here) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 7 06:51:18 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) In-Reply-To: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > BTW what are you doing to preserve your VHS tapes? Remember VHS > equipment are disappearing fast from the retail market What's really sad is I know many people who had their Super-8 movie film transferred to VHS in the 90's and threw away the originals. Now most Super-8 film was not stored in exactly "archival" condition but I'm 100% sure that it would've outlived the VHS tape. And Super-8 projectors, while not the simplest devices in the world, are certainly maintainable. Yeah, I know, I'm OT in the "computer hardware sense" but I think the same principles may in some cases be applicable to computer media. Tim. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Aug 7 07:41:46 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 14:41:46 +0200 Subject: HP 1610A question Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807143957.02ec14a0@pop.xs4all.nl> I just got a HP 1610 Logic Analyzer and although its in good shape the monitor is clearly very dead. I did notice that on the bottom there are several DB25 ports, is it perhaps possible to hook up a terminal or something to it and control it from there or something ? I think its a long shot but you never now. Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 7 09:24:41 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:24:41 -0400 Subject: HP2648A terminal References: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002701c59b5b$c1465b70$0100a8c0@screamer> Its a raster graphics terminal. I have some info on how to make it draw vectors, etc. My 2648 just recently lost its vertical deflection. Are the schematics for these on-line? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "Classic computer list" Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 4:42 PM Subject: HP2648A terminal > Hi, > > does anyone have a manual for one of these? It says graphics terminal on > it, > is it a vector terminal like the Tektronix units, or some other device? > > Thanks > > Jim. > > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at > WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 7 09:28:47 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:28:47 -0400 Subject: HP2648A terminal References: Message-ID: <003301c59b5c$536fcea0$0100a8c0@screamer> HP made the (excellent) HP1350 and HP1351 vector graphics boxes, but these have no keyboard input capability. Vector quality is very very good, better than a DEC VT-11 IMO, but the VT-11 is a bit more advanced (more capable). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 7:07 PM Subject: Re: HP2648A terminal >> >> Hi, >> >> does anyone have a manual for one of these? It says graphics terminal on >> it, >> is it a vector terminal like the Tektronix units, or some other device? > > I think it's a raster-scanned terminal, with a bitmap-like graphics board > in it. Did HP ever make a vector _terminal_ (as opposed to a vector > display device, they certainly made those). > > A useful site for older large (not handheld) HP machines is > http://www.hpmuseum.net. The chap who runs it has a lot more manuals > scanned that he can't host on his site, and he seems to approve of anyone > who wants to preserve HP machines. He's provided me with information by > private e-mail in the past. > > Worth asking him anyway (his contact details are on the site somewhere). > > -tony > From george at rachors.com Sun Aug 7 09:45:28 2005 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 07:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: biomation software and lead sets: free In-Reply-To: <42F58195.6070403@pacbell.net> References: <42F58195.6070403@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20050807074503.O90622@racsys.rachors.com> I have a K105 without leads... Is it too late to get in on this party? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > I forgot to add this to my other posting. > > I have two floppies in perfect condition in their original holder labelled: > > GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER > P/N 0117-0397-01 > REVISION 50 > 1989 > > GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER > P/N 0117-0397-02 > REVISION 50 > 1989 > > Also I have 14 lead sets for a gould/biomation logic analyzer. Each one has > about a dozen wires coming out. No grabbers though. These were bought > separately from the floppy above. > > I bought them a long time ago after seeing a lot of biomation logic analyzers > at foothill and livermore without the leads (or pods) so when I saw the lead > sets at weirdstuff, I grabbed them. Then as things turned out, I ended up > getting an HP logic analyzer instead of a biomation. > > Free. > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 7 10:16:36 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 10:16:36 -0500 Subject: biomation software and lead sets: CLAIMED In-Reply-To: <42F58195.6070403@pacbell.net> References: <42F58195.6070403@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42F625D4.4090808@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > I forgot to add this to my other posting. > > I have two floppies in perfect condition in their original holder labelled: > > GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER > P/N 0117-0397-01 > REVISION 50 > 1989 > > GOULD K105 68000/68010 DIASSEMBLER > P/N 0117-0397-02 > REVISION 50 > 1989 > > Also I have 14 lead sets for a gould/biomation logic analyzer. Each one > has about a dozen wires coming out. No grabbers though. These were > bought separately from the floppy above. > > I bought them a long time ago after seeing a lot of biomation logic > analyzers at foothill and livermore without the leads (or pods) so when > I saw the lead sets at weirdstuff, I grabbed them. Then as things > turned out, I ended up getting an HP logic analyzer instead of a biomation. > > Free. Gone. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 7 10:44:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:44:10 -0700 Subject: HP 1610A question Message-ID: > I did notice that on the bottom there are several DB25 ports Those are the connectors for the probe pods. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Aug 7 11:20:47 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:20:47 +0200 Subject: HP 1610A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807181956.02ec3848@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Aha, thanks, so I need to look for a new tube somewhere ey....bummer Better look out for another 1610A then :P At 17:44 7-8-2005, you wrote: > > I did notice that on the bottom there are several DB25 ports > >Those are the connectors for the probe pods. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Aug 7 11:14:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:14:14 -0500 Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) In-Reply-To: <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050807111414.6e27c60a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0400 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > BTW what are you doing to preserve your VHS tapes? Remember VHS > > equipment are disappearing fast from the retail market > > What's really sad is I know many people who had their Super-8 movie > film transferred to VHS in the 90's and threw away the originals. > > Now most Super-8 film was not stored in exactly "archival" condition > but I'm 100% sure that it would've outlived the VHS tape. And > Super-8 projectors, while not the simplest devices in the world, > are certainly maintainable. > > Yeah, I know, I'm OT in the "computer hardware sense" but I think > the same principles may in some cases be applicable to computer media. > > Tim. Your comments most certainly apply, and your comparison holds, with respect to people who are doing the same thing in film-to-digital conversion with regard to Microfiche, which have a long proven archival quality in comparison to the dubious CDR/magnetic medium the data is converted to. Although it's fair to say that a lot of the people converting Microfiche to pdf (or .tif images) are retaining the microfilm. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Aug 7 12:24:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:24:47 -0500 Subject: HP 1610A question In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807181956.02ec3848@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807181956.02ec3848@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <20050807122447.6471836b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 18:20:47 +0200 Stefan wrote: > Aha, thanks, so I need to look for a new tube somewhere ey....bummer > Better look out for another 1610A then :P > > At 17:44 7-8-2005, you wrote: > > > > I did notice that on the bottom there are several DB25 ports > > > >Those are the connectors for the probe pods. > If you got the probe pods with your analyzer, you're in good shape and it's worth looking for another 1610A. But the Analyzer chassis itself without the pods is a depressingly useless piece of hardware. There are folks who've designed their own pods for 161x logic analyzers, but for most of us, that detracts seriously from actually USING the things. I eventually gave away my 1610 chassis to a friend who had one, with the pods. Now I have a 1630G that I managed to find with pods. From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 7 09:46:21 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 10:46:21 -0400 Subject: Dec HSC's available in Kent WA Message-ID: <42F61EBD.7020303@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I Need to find a home for the following. 4) complete DEC HSC systems in cabinets 1) internal cage, boards and Power supply Also 1) 9 track tape evaluation system made by Graham Magnetics Very large and heavy. Works Local Pick up only ....... Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From technobug at comcast.net Sun Aug 7 14:48:58 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:48:58 -0700 Subject: computer drawer slides In-Reply-To: <200508071700.j77H02VT099245@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508071700.j77H02VT099245@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <66D2862D-7538-4049-815A-5EAF4417DBBE@comcast.net> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 at 20:12:00 -0400, "Charles H. Dickman" wrote: > The "drawer slides" on the rack of the PDP-11/40 I am working with are > very stiff. Were these originally lubricated? > > My instincts are to use a little bit of wheel bearing grease, but I > was > curious, because there was not much residue. > > -chuck If the slides are detached from the equipment and are stiff, lubricant, as mentioned previously, should free things up. However, if the slides are on the equipment in the racks, ensure that they are properly aligned. A small misalignment on one rail will bind both. CRC From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 7 15:09:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:09:32 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 1610 Message-ID: <96e0a14b5a229ddd1c111a5c33d00784@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/Kennedy-Tape-Drive-1610-Univac- PEC_W0QQitemZ5228141340QQcategoryZ1247QQss This was one of Kennedy's first drives. Probably won't go for much, since it has to be picked up in MA It's probably 9-track based on the serial number (009-258) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 15:20:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:20:17 -0500 Subject: WTD: CBM Pet 8032 64K memory expansion installation/users guide In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050806132346.00ce9138@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050806132346.00ce9138@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On 8/6/05, B. Degnan wrote: > I am looking for a CBM Pet 8032 64K memory expansion installation/users > guide. Anyone have a copy or a URL to a copy? I wish to test an expansion > card to verify that indeed the 64K is available, and how to address the > memory/test the card. There should be a test program embedded on one of the many Test/Demo disks floating around on the 'net. Funet will be a good place to start for manuals, schematics and documentation. > Should there be a different "bytes available" > message upon boot with the card properly installed vs. no card? I wouldn't expect so - the memory is paged into one of the expansion blocks, and BASIC doesn't know anything about it. AFAIK, you had to write special programs that could take advantage of the memory. Since it was somewhat difficult to use (compared to writing simple BASIC programs), and since it was so expensive, they weren't very common. -ethan From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 7 15:20:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:20:37 -0400 Subject: YAIDU References: <20050806181134.IVBB11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <004d01c59b8d$79b31280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> It might make sence to post the link to ImageDisk in messages about fixes to ImageDisk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 7 15:38:37 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050807133433.U56581@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Okay, now I've got to ask: Anything like this for a 1981 8088 PeeCee? > > There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into > > PCMCIA dlots. > 8-bit ISA adapters? YES. There are, or at least WERE, 8 bit ISA PCMCIA adapters. > To clarify: I want to add "solid state" storage to a 1982 > IBM PC rev B. machine (to see if I can get any faster I/O than the MFM drive > hooked up here) That would certainly reduce the I/O bottleneck, but 4.77 MHz will never be "fast". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 14:18:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:18:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) In-Reply-To: <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 7, 5 07:51:18 am Message-ID: > > > BTW what are you doing to preserve your VHS tapes? Remember VHS > > equipment are disappearing fast from the retail market > > What's really sad is I know many people who had their Super-8 movie > film transferred to VHS in the 90's and threw away the originals. It botheres me when people scan their photos/negatives _and don't keep the originals_. Photographic film is more likely to be 'readable' in the future than a CD-ROM or DVD. Before some idiot starts a flamewar, note that I am not saying there's anything wrong with scanning photographs to make it easier to view them now (some people prefer to look at a computer screen than set up a projector, apparently), or to send them round the world, or to digitally manipulate them, or... Just that if you do this, you should keep the originals too. > > Now most Super-8 film was not stored in exactly "archival" condition > but I'm 100% sure that it would've outlived the VHS tape. And > Super-8 projectors, while not the simplest devices in the world, > are certainly maintainable. I have a pretty simple amateur 8mm projector (I think it's a Eumig), and I suspect any of the parts likely to wear or fail could be made in a home workshop. Well, OK, the bulb couldn't but then bulbs are not that hard to obtain... > > Yeah, I know, I'm OT in the "computer hardware sense" but I think > the same principles may in some cases be applicable to computer media. The obvious on-topic example is that if you transfer your MainDEC tapes or Altair paper tape BASIC, or... to PC disk to make them easier to load into the classic machine, or to put on bitsavers, or... then you should still keep the original papepr tape. Paper tape readers are a lot easier to maintain than PCs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 14:21:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:21:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 1610A question In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807143957.02ec14a0@pop.xs4all.nl> from "Stefan" at Aug 7, 5 02:41:46 pm Message-ID: > > I just got a HP 1610 Logic Analyzer and although its in good shape > the monitor is clearly very dead. Why is it 'clearly very dead'? Can it definitely not be repaired? Is this a raster scan monitor, or a vector display? If the former, then you might well be able to pick up the video and sync signals inside and get some external monitor that will talk to it. My Gould/Biomation analyser even has a composite video socket on the back (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 14:27:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:27:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <003301c59b5c$536fcea0$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 7, 5 10:28:47 am Message-ID: > > HP made the (excellent) HP1350 and HP1351 vector graphics boxes, but > these have no keyboard input capability. I have a pair of the 1350s, and as I've mentioned here before, the design is strange. They take in a subset of HPGL (that is, commands in ASCII, numbers as ASCII-coded decimal digits) and turn them into vectors which are then output as analogue X,Y,Z signals. The weird part is that there is no processor or processor-like circuit in there, it's all hardwired logic. 3 large PCBs of it. I have the service manual. The 2 10-bit DACs on the 1350 mainboard have preset pots to tweak the top 6 bits (there are setting up instructions in the manual). For reasons of the physical appearance (2 rows of pots) and function, I quickly named this the 'graphic equaliser' :-) Does anyone have the service manual for the companion HP1311 monitor? I don't, and I've never seriously looked inside. > > Vector quality is very very good, better than a DEC VT-11 IMO, but > the VT-11 is a bit more advanced (more capable). The VT11 has a resolution of 1024*768, the HP is 1024*1023. Both are very good devices for their time. -tony From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Aug 7 17:42:06 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:42:06 +0200 Subject: HP 1610A question In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807143957.02ec14a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050808004024.02eebbb0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Well its hard to explain precisely but there is stuff on the inside on the glass, I think it has been wet. I was expecting a bit of a mess inside but its actually just fine inside, everything still nice and shiny (well almost anyway :P ) But as I understand I also need some more than just the machine itself.... At 21:21 7-8-2005, you wrote: > > > > I just got a HP 1610 Logic Analyzer and although its in good shape > > the monitor is clearly very dead. > >Why is it 'clearly very dead'? Can it definitely not be repaired? > >Is this a raster scan monitor, or a vector display? If the former, then >you might well be able to pick up the video and sync signals inside and >get some external monitor that will talk to it. My Gould/Biomation >analyser even has a composite video socket on the back (!). > >-tony ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 7 21:10:54 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 21:10:54 Subject: computer drawer slides In-Reply-To: <42F551D0.9010101@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050807211054.3ecf38a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:12 PM 8/6/05 -0400, you wrote: >The "drawer slides" on the rack of the PDP-11/40 I am working with are >very stiff. Were these originally lubricated? > >My instincts are to use a little bit of wheel bearing grease, but I was >curious, because there was not much residue. > I just finished cleaning up 7 pairs of DEC rack slides and I didn't find any sign of grease on any of them. I don't recall ever seeing grease on any of the rack slides on any of the electronic equipment that I've worked on. I'm not saying you can't use grease on them. I'm just saying that none of the ones that I've seen ever had any on them. A lot of reack slides have wheels on them with ball bearings in then and I think they are usually greased. I'd check and see if those wheels are rotating freely. Joe From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 7 20:17:55 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:17:55 -0400 Subject: HP2648A terminal References: Message-ID: <004d01c59bb7$027a3110$0100a8c0@screamer> The VT-11 has lots of line drawing modes that the 1350 does not offer. Also the 1350 (and 1351, I have both) does not do such a good job of equalizing the brightness of vectors of different lengths. I think I have to reluctantly give the nod to the DEC 1350 in terms of capability. But I think the HP's analog vector generator outperforms DEC's digital vector generator. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:27 PM Subject: Re: HP2648A terminal >> >> HP made the (excellent) HP1350 and HP1351 vector graphics boxes, but >> these have no keyboard input capability. > > > I have a pair of the 1350s, and as I've mentioned here before, the design > is strange. They take in a subset of HPGL (that is, commands in ASCII, > numbers as ASCII-coded decimal digits) and turn them into vectors which > are then output as analogue X,Y,Z signals. The weird part is that there > is no processor or processor-like circuit in there, it's all hardwired > logic. 3 large PCBs of it. I have the service manual. > > The 2 10-bit DACs on the 1350 mainboard have preset pots to tweak the top > 6 bits (there are setting up instructions in the manual). For reasons of > the physical appearance (2 rows of pots) and function, I quickly named > this the 'graphic equaliser' :-) > > Does anyone have the service manual for the companion HP1311 monitor? I > don't, and I've never seriously looked inside. > >> >> Vector quality is very very good, better than a DEC VT-11 IMO, but >> the VT-11 is a bit more advanced (more capable). > > The VT11 has a resolution of 1024*768, the HP is 1024*1023. Both are very > good devices for their time. > > -tony > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 8 00:31:06 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 01:31:06 -0400 Subject: Driver for an old ISA board Message-ID: <002701c59bda$68ec9c80$0500fea9@game> Anybody have drivers for an old Mr. Ramgrab/AT ISA video capture device? Think its 1994 vintage. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 8 02:38:45 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 03:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> References: <17138.46762.780542.126014@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050805113216.4c8ed7e0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1123243132.31081.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050805081006.055ec7d8@mail> Message-ID: <200508080742.DAA00011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I get about 500 pictures on a $100 1 gig CF with a 8 megapix Nikon. Either you're losing picture quality through lossy compression (JPEG?) or you have truly crappy colour fidelity (1GB is 8Gb, divide by 8 megapixels and 500 pictures and I get...about two bits per pixel, less than one per primary). Neither would be acceptable for what, for lack of a better term, I might call a "serious" photograph. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 8 04:39:37 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 05:39:37 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) In-Reply-To: <20050807111414.6e27c60a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20050807111414.6e27c60a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42F72859.nailCFU11QIEA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > and your comparison holds, with respect to people who are doing the > same thing in film-to-digital conversion with regard to Microfiche, > which have a long proven archival quality in comparison to the dubious > CDR/magnetic medium the data is converted to. Going all the way digital, I don't feel so bad about. Sure, the digital images may have some shortcomings, but the microfilm copies were already of borderline image quality in most places. And the big win is that 10 mirrors can get copies of the digitized microfilm and 100 people might download the digitized stuff from each mirror. (Not that you can't duplicate microfilm, but...) Now, with most new video formats (including DVD) having copy protection built in as commonly used, I don't always feel good about digital either. What I do not like is the only copy of a document sitting unindexed in some museum's collection, accessible to nobody! Tim. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 8 07:45:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:45:03 -0400 Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805093715.01bd9090@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <17143.21455.989243.434844@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Show me a consumer film camera made in the last 15 years that >> doesn't take batteries in some form or another... Tony> Take, or require (the latter meaning that you can still use the Tony> camera, with a good range of shutter speeds, without the Tony> battery, only the exposure meter doesn't work). Tony> IIRC, the new-ish Leica MP doesn't meed a battery other than Tony> for the meter, the shutter is totally mechanical. And I believe Tony> Nikon have done a limited run of a reproduction of one of their Tony> classic S-series rangefinder cameras, that is fully mechanical Tony> too. My Contax RTS, which is at least 30 years old, needs a battery to release the shutter. Tony> Mroe seriously, the batteries taken by most film cameras were Tony> standard primary batteries and are a lot easier to find than a Tony> custom Li-ion or NiMH pack for a digital camera. I forgot what the Contax needs. A primary battery for sure, but I don't think it's one of the usual AA or such. It might be as bad as a set of nice microphones I have (Signet) -- which require an 8 volt mercury battery. Seriously not PC, and hard to find even 10 years ago, probably completely nonexistent now. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 8 08:15:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:15:38 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) References: <20050806221614.22F273BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <42F5F5B6.nail1O31CBIEO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20050807111414.6e27c60a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17143.23290.666803.244012@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0400 Scott> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: >> > BTW what are you doing to preserve your VHS tapes? Remember VHS >> > equipment are disappearing fast from the retail market >> >> What's really sad is I know many people who had their Super-8 >> movie film transferred to VHS in the 90's and threw away the >> originals. >> >> Now most Super-8 film was not stored in exactly "archival" >> condition but I'm 100% sure that it would've outlived the VHS >> tape. And Super-8 projectors, while not the simplest devices in >> the world, are certainly maintainable. >> >> Yeah, I know, I'm OT in the "computer hardware sense" but I think >> the same principles may in some cases be applicable to computer >> media. >> >> Tim. Scott> Your comments most certainly apply, and your comparison holds, Scott> with respect to people who are doing the same thing in Scott> film-to-digital conversion with regard to Microfiche, which Scott> have a long proven archival quality in comparison to the Scott> dubious CDR/magnetic medium the data is converted to. Scott> Although it's fair to say that a lot of the people converting Scott> Microfiche to pdf (or .tif images) are retaining the Scott> microfilm. Black and white images have clean solutions. Unfortunately, color images don't -- color film, especially older film, probably already has faded quite a lot and will fade more over time. One solution comes to mind, from a very old book about photography that mentioned color images done with black & white film vian an interference scheme. Film mounted on a reflecting background, mercury originally -- interference fringes in the (thick?) emulsion... That would be as good as silver black&white film... paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 8 13:53:20 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:53:20 -0400 Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <200508061700.j76H0WVt090315@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508081853.j78IrCYG027970@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "I reckon that a good 35mm camera (good meaning a top-end lens and fine grain film) is equivalent to 12-20 megapixels." My understanding from the camera companies, which I've heard more than once (and going back to 2000, before any such digital cameras existed) is that they consider 35mm film about the equivalent of 6 megapixels. It's not exact, as it depends on what image sensor (not all image sensors of the same megapixels are the same) and what film (not all 35mm films are the same, either). The lens obviously enters into overall image quality in a big way, but that is equally true for both film and digital cameras. But bottom line, as a rule-of-thumb, and other things (in particular the lens) being equal or at least comparable, I consider (and a lot of experts consider) that about a 6 megapixel camera is the equivalent of 35mm film. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 8 14:10:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) Message-ID: <200508081910.MAA15433@clulw009.amd.com> Hi The only issue here is that it also depends on the camera lens. I have a small lens Olympus C50 with 5 MegPix and a 10D Canon. There is no question about which has the sharper pictures. The 10D can be blown up 2 to 2.5 times bigger. So pixel count is not 5.0 vers 6.3. Dwight >From: "Barry Watzman" > >Re: "I reckon that a good 35mm camera (good meaning a top-end lens and >fine grain film) is equivalent to 12-20 megapixels." > >My understanding from the camera companies, which I've heard more than once >(and going back to 2000, before any such digital cameras existed) is that >they consider 35mm film about the equivalent of 6 megapixels. It's not >exact, as it depends on what image sensor (not all image sensors of the same >megapixels are the same) and what film (not all 35mm films are the same, >either). The lens obviously enters into overall image quality in a big way, >but that is equally true for both film and digital cameras. But bottom >line, as a rule-of-thumb, and other things (in particular the lens) being >equal or at least comparable, I consider (and a lot of experts consider) >that about a 6 megapixel camera is the equivalent of 35mm film. > > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 8 14:16:10 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <200508081910.MAA15433@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508081910.MAA15433@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: Can you guys PLEASE take this digital camera discussion to another venue? This has gone way past ridiculous... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:25:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:25:57 +0000 Subject: Advent Systems? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1123529157.2827.28.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-08-06 at 21:25 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Box of 8" soft-sectored floppies, > > box labelled "Advent Systems LTD.". > > I thought it was Advent Imaging, but anyway... Quite possible someone made a mistake in writing the disk labels of course (they're copies, not originals) > Advent were a major user of PERQs in the UK at one time. I got my T4 (!) Nice! :) I gather the T4's pretty rare... I think one of the PERQ boards I picked up yesterday's probably an OIO. I've got one complete machine (but currently totally dismantled) with landscape monitor, keyboard etc. from Dave W. (PNX on the 5.25" disk) Another one should be following next week (also with landscape board), but no drive, keyboard, screen or mouse with that one. I did get POS G5 + G6 media, along with PNX 5.02 media which is nice to have! cheers Jules From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 8 15:58:57 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:58:57 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <200508081853.j78IrCYG027970@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200508061700.j76H0WVt090315@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200508081853.j78IrCYG027970@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050808225857.0e7e4758.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:53:20 -0400 "Barry Watzman" wrote: > I consider (and a lot of experts consider) > that about a 6 megapixel camera is the equivalent of 35mm film. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm "I find that it takes about 25 megapixels to simulate 35mm film" 6 "true" color megapixels are 24 "false" megapixels. The megapixel count the manufacturers print in their ads actually is the count of the "false" (i.e. bayer sub-) pixels. Based on those subpixels you can interpolate one "false" color pixel per bayer subpixel. Obviously interpolated pixels are not real color pixels so you get interpolation artifacts like moire effects... A bayer pixel is formed like this: R G G B i.e. four subpixels per color pixel. Two subpixels are green, one red and one blue. There are two green subpixels because the human eye is very sentive for green shades. Based on this the camera interpolates one "false" color pixel for each subpixel. Therefore the count of real color pixels is one quater of the number the manufacturer prints on the box... This is obviously not true for cameras with three CCD / CMOS image sensors. There you get only "real" color pixels, no interpolation required. But: Is there any DSLR with three CCD / CMOS sensors? Lets do some math: An A4 paper is about 8" to 12". The minimum resolution a print requires to hide the pixel structure is 300 dpi. (This is not good, it is the minimum!) 300 dpi gives 90000, say 100000 pixels per square inch. The print is about 8" * 12" = 96 square inch, say 100 square inch. So you get 100000 pixels per square inch * 100 square inch = 10 megapixel. True pixels, not interpolated bayer subpixels. I.e. you will need a 40 megapixel camera to get this. OK, you may get away with the interpolated pixels, so a 10 megapixel DSLR can do this job. Not to talk about color depth... (e.g. digicams use RGB, i.e. additive, printers CMYK, i.e. subtractive color models. Conversion frome one to the other is lossy.) Or think about a slide show. How much does a digital projector cost that can project your 10 megapixel digital images at full resolution? Good, old, analog slides will get you there much cheaper. You may get away with even less then 10 megapixels depending on the subject, how good the interpolation works and most important how high your demand for quality is. Still, for real fine art, e.g. architecture, photography and large prints, e.g. 30 cm * 40 cm and above, a large format camera is the way to go. Period. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 8 16:33:22 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:33:22 -0500 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? Message-ID: Hello everyone! I was just investigating the usage of DECDLD for defining a small graphic screen on my PDP11 during a program. When using a VT220 at 19200 baud, how fast can a screen be refreshed using DECDLD graphics? I was thinking of doing a multiplayer (4 player) game using this system. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 8 16:51:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:51:06 -0400 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? References: Message-ID: <17143.54218.537337.337914@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> Hello everyone! I was just investigating the usage of DECDLD Julian> for defining a small graphic screen on my PDP11 during a Julian> program. Julian> When using a VT220 at 19200 baud, how fast can a screen be Julian> refreshed using DECDLD graphics? I was thinking of doing a Julian> multiplayer (4 player) game using this system. If you plan the graphics properly, sure, no problem. PLATO had multiplayer games long ago using 1200 baud lines. That was with a MUCH more efficient graphics encoding, though. Did you mean VT240? Unless my brain is going, VT220 is text only. VT240 supports REGIS, which is a simple graphics protocol (somewhat verbose in its encoding as I recall). Assuming that REGIS doesn't lose more than a factor of 16 in coding efficiency vs. PLATO -- which should be true -- you should be able to get a couple of refreshes per second. There are plenty of interactive games that can live with that. paul From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 8 17:25:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <20050808225857.0e7e4758.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE William "at least I know when to kill it" Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 16:30:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:30:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: Joe, (I think) was asking about power for the Diablo Model 30 disk drive (DEC RK02/RK03). I had a chance to look in the manuals on bitsavers today. The Model 30 Maintenance Manual (not the parts list), gives the pinout of the power connector. I'd forgotten one detail, there are 2 connections for each of the +15V and =15V lines, one for the high-current, noisy, stuff (like motors), one for the low currnet, sensitive, stuff like the read amplifier. You should use separate wires for each connection and only join them at the PSU output terminals. There's also a maximum length of power cable, something like 5'. I don't see why this would be a major problem in any sane system layout. Oh yes, these drives take up to 8A (!) on the +/-15V lines. The PSU manual _is_ on bitsavers, I think. It's the Model 29 manual in the samre directory. No, this is not obvious, I was just looking at various manuals. The DEC PSU is, I think, electrcially different, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 16:34:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:34:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... (film vs digital) In-Reply-To: <42F72859.nailCFU11QIEA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 8, 5 05:39:37 am Message-ID: > > > and your comparison holds, with respect to people who are doing the > > same thing in film-to-digital conversion with regard to Microfiche, > > which have a long proven archival quality in comparison to the dubious > > CDR/magnetic medium the data is converted to. > > Going all the way digital, I don't feel so bad about. Sure, the > digital images may have some shortcomings, but the microfilm copies > were already of borderline image quality in most places. And I don;'t think the loss of quality matters in these cases. Most people (I hestitate to say all) don't care if they can't see the exact details of the font used to print a technical manual, they just want to get the information out. You don't care about the thickness of the lines used on a schematic, you just need to know what's connected to what in order to fix the machine. I think the main issue is that microfilm is likely to have a much longer useable life than any digital storage medium (and you won't convince me that putting something on the web will _necessarily_ preserve it, either). > the big win is that 10 mirrors can get copies of the digitized > microfilm and 100 people might download the digitized stuff from > each mirror. (Not that you can't duplicate microfilm, but...) Of coruse makine the manuals available is a Good Thing. Nobody is disputing that. I just feel that if you scan microfilm, or paper, or... you should keep the originals, or pass them on to somebody who will preserve them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 17:05:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:05:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <004d01c59bb7$027a3110$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 7, 5 09:17:55 pm Message-ID: > > I think I have to reluctantly give the nod to the DEC 1350 in terms What the heck is a DEC 1350? A PDP11 with an IB(V)11 card driving an HP1350? :-) > of capability. But I think the HP's analog vector generator outperforms > DEC's digital vector generator. In what way is the HP vector generator analogue? I've just looked in the service manual, it has subtractors to calculate the length, XOR gates to get the absoule value of that number, counters for the X and Y positions, rate multipliers to clock the counters based on the X and Y differences, etc. The output of the counters feed the DACs, the outputs of the DACs go to the output BNCs. It's not waht I'd call an analogue vector generator, where a couple of ramp voltages are generated using analogue circuitry based on the current and end positions of the beam. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 16:42:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:42:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17143.21455.989243.434844@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 8, 5 08:45:03 am Message-ID: > My Contax RTS, which is at least 30 years old, needs a battery to > release the shutter. I don't dispute there were electronic cameras going back about 40 years. But fully mechnnical ones exist too. There have even been automatic exposure cameras that don't use a battery... (Contact me off list if you want to know about lock-needle mechanisms and a strange camera with a pneumatically-timed shutter). > > Tony> Mroe seriously, the batteries taken by most film cameras were > Tony> standard primary batteries and are a lot easier to find than a > Tony> custom Li-ion or NiMH pack for a digital camera. > > I forgot what the Contax needs. A primary battery for sure, but I > don't think it's one of the usual AA or such. Most electronic cameras need either 3V or 6V. Some of the later ones with motors use AA or AAA cells, the ones that just use the battery for the meter and chutter control often use silver oxide batteries. > > It might be as bad as a set of nice microphones I have (Signet) -- > which require an 8 volt mercury battery. Seriously not PC, and hard > to find even 10 years ago, probably completely nonexistent now. AFAIK Mercury cells are no longer made :-( Some older cameras had a fairly simple exposure meter circuit that depended on a constant and known battery voltage (which was the case with a mercury battery). Put a modern alkaline cell in there and you get the wrong exposure. Others used a bridge circuit, with the correct exposure being the balance point of the bridge. These are independant of battery voltage [1] so it's relatively easy to keep them going now. [1] Well some of these cameras had the meter scaled either side of the balance point for 1 stop over/under exposure. This won't be accurate if you use a non-mercury battery, but there's a trivial and obvious workaround. Pentax (idiots!) made a camera with a bridge circuit where the correct exposure was just off balance. The official reasone was so that if the battery was dead you didn't get the pointer on the correct-exposure mark. But of course this thing depends on the right battery voltage. More modern electronic cameras tend to include voltage regulator circuits anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 16:47:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:47:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <200508081853.j78IrCYG027970@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Aug 8, 5 02:53:20 pm Message-ID: > > Re: "I reckon that a good 35mm camera (good meaning a top-end lens and > fine grain film) is equivalent to 12-20 megapixels." > > My understanding from the camera companies, which I've heard more than once > (and going back to 2000, before any such digital cameras existed) is that > they consider 35mm film about the equivalent of 6 megapixels. It's not This may well be the case for a reasonable compact camera with a zoom lens, and normal colour print film processed in the the local overnight photo shop (actually, I think 6Mpixels is better than that...). I also think that a top-end fixed focal length lens, fine grain film, and careful processing/printing will be a lot better than that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 16:54:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:54:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advent Systems? In-Reply-To: <1123529157.2827.28.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 8, 5 07:25:57 pm Message-ID: > > I thought it was Advent Imaging, but anyway... > > Quite possible someone made a mistake in writing the disk labels of > course (they're copies, not originals) > > > Advent were a major user of PERQs in the UK at one time. I got my T4 (!) > > Nice! :) I gather the T4's pretty rare... I believe only 2 are known... > > I think one of the PERQ boards I picked up yesterday's probably an OIO. > I've got one complete machine (but currently totally dismantled) with > landscape monitor, keyboard etc. from Dave W. (PNX on the 5.25" disk) They're not hard to put together. The boards go into the cardcage with the chips facing the RHS of the machine, and the boards are keyed so they can't go in the wrong slots. From the left, the slots are : CPU Option (nearly always empty, although a few hackers put a tape streamer card in there), CPU, Memory, EIO, OIO. The EIO board has 2 50 pin edge connectors on the front. The top one goes to the floppy drive (normal SA800 connections). The bottom one goes to the DIB (Disk Interface Board), and thence to the hard disk. Ignore the front connectors on the CPU board unless you have a logic analyser and want to trace the microcode. They're the microcode address and data lines, bascially. The OIO board will also have front connectors. The top 2 (50 pin) are the PERQlink parallel interface. The bottom one is normally not used, but I've hacked mine to be a QIC-02 streamer interface. You can generally ignore those. The landscape monitor is a Moniterm chassis. They are _very_ unreliable. The CRTs lose emission, the EHT blocks (a partially-potted module, there is no schematic in the official service manual) fail too. I must do a workarounf for the latter sometime. The KME Portrait monitors (as on the T1s) are a lot more reliable. -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Aug 8 18:08:35 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:08:35 -0400 Subject: HP2648A terminal References: Message-ID: <000701c59c6e$1ba040f0$0100a8c0@screamer> First off, I meant to write DEC VT-11, not 1350. As for digital versus analog vector generators, there is a vast difference. And this is not like the difference between microprogrammed and random logic designs! A digital vector generator uses counters that drive DAC's, each counter is clocked at a rate that controls the slope of the vector. Most often binary rate multipliers are used to divide a fixed clock down to the rate needed to clock the counters up or down at the rate needed to draw at the desired angle. An analog vector generator on the other hand will recharge a high quality capacitor (often compensated). Once the X and Y axis DACS have charged these caps to the vector starting point voltages, the DAC's are updated with the vector end-point values an analog switching then causes the caps to charge or discharge to the new values. In terms of screen quality, digital vector generators often have visible steps to the vectors, analog generators should never show such steps. Digital vector generators 'move' the beam around by changing the digital values to the X and Y axis DAC's over time. Analog vector generators (generally) only update the DAC's for the start and end points of the vectors. I highly recommend reading 'The secret life of vector generators", which you can find on the web, it was written by an engineer at Atari many years back. Often its possible to tell an analog vector generator from a digital one just by looking at the display quality. Some old arcade games used digital generators, others analog. IMO, digital vector generators are an exercise in sheer brute force engineering while the analog vector generators require a lot more finesse and attention to details. Clearly HP had a excellent analog design engineers, and they really worked on getting the HP 1350 and 1351 analog sections just right. DEC's focus was more on the digital side, so the VT-11 offers all sorts of graphing modes and other features that the 135x vector boxes would have to emulate in software. I think the VT-11 and HP 1350 really illustrate two very different approaches to vector graphics in many ways beyond the vector generation methods. The VT-11 takes up main memory bandwidth, while the 135x has its own display list memory. The VT-11 sits right on the main CPU bus and acts like a co-processor while the 135x is very clearly a peripheral device (HPIB interface). Sadly, the HP 135x lacks a light pen, but offers ways to logically partition the display list for easy display animation. This is harder (but not too hard) on the VT-11 (or an Imlac for that matter). Does the VT-11 have a keyboard port? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:05 PM Subject: Re: HP2648A terminal >> >> I think I have to reluctantly give the nod to the DEC 1350 in terms > > What the heck is a DEC 1350? A PDP11 with an IB(V)11 card driving an > HP1350? > :-) > >> of capability. But I think the HP's analog vector generator outperforms >> DEC's digital vector generator. > > In what way is the HP vector generator analogue? I've just looked in the > service manual, it has subtractors to calculate the length, XOR gates to > get the absoule value of that number, counters for the X and Y positions, > rate multipliers to clock the counters based on the X and Y differences, > etc. The output of the counters feed the DACs, the outputs of the DACs go > to the output BNCs. > > It's not waht I'd call an analogue vector generator, where a couple of > ramp voltages are generated using analogue circuitry based on the current > and end positions of the beam. > > -tony > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 8 18:20:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <000701c59c6e$1ba040f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: > An analog vector generator on the other hand will recharge a high > quality capacitor (often compensated). Once the X and Y axis DACS > have charged these caps to the vector starting point voltages, the DAC's > are updated with the vector end-point values an analog switching then > causes the caps to charge or discharge to the new values. It seems to me there were some analog vector systems that could do smooth curves as well. Complete engineering overkill. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 18:27:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:27:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <000701c59c6e$1ba040f0$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Aug 8, 5 07:08:35 pm Message-ID: > > First off, I meant to write DEC VT-11, not 1350. > > As for digital versus analog vector generators, there is a vast difference. > > And this is not like the difference between microprogrammed and random > logic designs! > > A digital vector generator uses counters that drive DAC's, each counter > is clocked at a rate that controls the slope of the vector. Most often > binary rate multipliers are used to divide a fixed clock down to the rate > needed to clock the counters up or down at the rate needed to draw > at the desired angle. > > An analog vector generator on the other hand will recharge a high > quality capacitor (often compensated). Once the X and Y axis DACS > have charged these caps to the vector starting point voltages, the DAC's > are updated with the vector end-point values an analog switching then > causes the caps to charge or discharge to the new values. Yes, thsoe are the definitions I assumed to. The HP1350 is most certainly a digital vector generator by that definition. I've just looked at the official operating/service manual. The DACs are driven by counters, clocked by rate multipliers, etc. > Does the VT-11 have a keyboard port? Not really. There's a keuboard connector at the back of the monitor used with the VT11, the signals from that (2 wires IIRC) just go down the cable to one of the VT11 boards and end up on backplane pins. In the VT11 configuration (the 3 boards in a 4 slot backplane, to plug into the Unibus of a PDP11), these pins are not used. In the GT40 configuration (graphics terminal using these 3 boards, PDP11/05 processor boards, core memory, serial interdace in a 9 slot backplane, fitted into the 5.25" PDP11/05 cabinet, with a real frontpanel), the keboard uses the UART on the CPU board set, the appropriate pins are wired across the backplane. -tony From tradde at excite.com Mon Aug 8 18:57:13 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: <20050808235713.986E1BB471@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> --- On Mon 08/08, Tony Duell < ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > wrote: From: Tony Duell [mailto: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:30:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 power Joe, (I think) was asking about power for the Diablo Model 30 disk drive
(DEC RK02/RK03).

I had a chance to look in the manuals on bitsavers today. The Model 30
Maintenance Manual (not the parts list), gives the pinout of the power
connector. I'd forgotten one detail, there are 2 connections for each of
the +15V and =15V lines, one for the high-current, noisy, stuff (like
motors), one for the low currnet, sensitive, stuff like the read
amplifier. You should use separate wires for each connection and only
join them at the PSU output terminals.

There's also a maximum length of power cable, something like 5'. I don't
see why this would be a major problem in any sane system layout.

Oh yes, these drives take up to 8A (!) on the +/-15V lines.

The PSU manual _is_ on bitsavers, I think. It's the Model 29 manual in
the samre directory. No, this is not obvious, I was just looking at
various manuals. The DEC PSU is, I think, electrcially different, though.

-tony

----------------------- The power supply I have for my two RK8s (RK03s) is made by Pertec and is called the model 9000. Depending on how many drives it can be a 9001, 9003, or 9004. It shows +5, +12, -26, +24. The 9004 adds -24v. I hope this information is helpful to someone. Tim R _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Aug 8 19:32:49 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:32:49 -0500 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? In-Reply-To: <17143.54218.537337.337914@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: VT220 does not have graphics, but does have an available down-line-loadable character set. DECDLD is the (protocol?) that is used to transfer the custom fonts to the terminal. I was wondering how fast it does this - from what I can gather, using this method you can redefine and line up the characters so that they form a picture, while still retaining the ROM character set. Am I totally off base about this? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? >>>>> "Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: Julian> Hello everyone! I was just investigating the usage of DECDLD Julian> for defining a small graphic screen on my PDP11 during a Julian> program. Julian> When using a VT220 at 19200 baud, how fast can a screen be Julian> refreshed using DECDLD graphics? I was thinking of doing a Julian> multiplayer (4 player) game using this system. If you plan the graphics properly, sure, no problem. PLATO had multiplayer games long ago using 1200 baud lines. That was with a MUCH more efficient graphics encoding, though. Did you mean VT240? Unless my brain is going, VT220 is text only. VT240 supports REGIS, which is a simple graphics protocol (somewhat verbose in its encoding as I recall). Assuming that REGIS doesn't lose more than a factor of 16 in coding efficiency vs. PLATO -- which should be true -- you should be able to get a couple of refreshes per second. There are plenty of interactive games that can live with that. paul From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 8 19:55:00 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:55:00 -0400 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? References: Message-ID: <023901c59c7c$f9135a40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > ...transfer the custom fonts to the terminal. > ...this method ...can redefine and line up the characters > so that they form a picture, recalling... I thought the problem with that was you could only define 256 characters at a time, and when you tried to load a new set of bitpatterns, all instances old and new onscreen would change, making only a picture with 256 unique cells (no more) possible. Don't know if this is a fact, but that's what the spec seemed to say to me at the time. A full screen could be up to more like 24x80=1920 characters. A lot could still be done with even that. Another possible problem: fixed inter-character gaps. Perhaps someone here has actually Done this. John A. From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Aug 8 21:15:32 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:15:32 -0700 Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? Message-ID: <42F7AF54.21561.1389F910@localhost> Hi all, A local second-hand store got a bunch of TTL and CMOS chips, maybe 500 pieces in all. It's kind of odd -- some are in original retail bags, some are in old glass medicine bottles with corks. Someone's basement workshop collection, I guess. I looked through them, wrote down some numbers. They're selling them for about $3 per dozen for the ones in larger quantities. Anyone interested in MM5262 2K dynamic RAMs? Loads of these, in original retail plastic bags (antistatic? I think not). These are interesting, I'm going to pick these up for projects: 8642 quad bus tranceiver? 8836 single-ended bus receiver (Unibus?) 8838 quad bus tranceiver (Unibus?) MM5311 digital clock 5371 digital clock, 4 digits, 50 Hz 5781 programmable controller or calculator? MM5780 (2 digit toy calculator?) MM5799 4-bit microcontroller 5841 serial shift input, 8 bit NPN drivers (50V, 500 MA) (if this is really what they are, they're really fun) Anyone have any info on the M5799? These look like TTL. Anything of special interest in this list? 8092 dual 5-input NAND w/2 inv. inputs 8094 non-inv function buffer gate (if National, DM) 8136 6-bit identity comparator 8601 single RC timer? 8664 7 segment decoder/driver 8796 General purpose Mask Prog ROM (no idea what version) 8806 4-input AND function gate? (if SE/SL/NE) 8828 Dual D flipflop? 8856 programmable counter 8880 Hi volt 7 seg decod/driv 74174 Hex D FF 74181 TTL ALU function generator Others, can not determine what they are. Any ideas? I can go back and try to get manufacturer letters: 5737 ??? 5782 ??? 7504 ??? 7506 ??? 7515 ??? 7517 ??? 8096 ??? 8098 ??? 8670 ??? 8681 ??? 8817 ??? 16254 ??? 60769 ??? 141097 national semi, no idea These seem pretty common, not worth bothering with: 4016 CMOS quad bilateral switch 4019 CMOS quad 2-input mux 4021 CMOS 8-bit shift reg 4049 CMOS hex inv buffer 4066 CMOS quad bilateral switch MM5221 mask prog. ROM (no idea what's on them) Brian From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 21:41:03 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:41:03 -0400 Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? In-Reply-To: <42F7AF54.21561.1389F910@localhost> References: <42F7AF54.21561.1389F910@localhost> Message-ID: On 8/8/05, Brian Knittel wrote: > 5737 ??? > 5782 ??? > 7504 ??? > 7506 ??? > 7515 ??? > 7517 ??? > 8096 ??? intel processor? > 8098 ??? intel processor? > 8670 ??? > 8681 ??? > 8817 ??? > 16254 ??? maybe dynamic ram > 60769 ??? > 141097 national semi, no idea > > These seem pretty common, not worth bothering with: > 4016 CMOS quad bilateral switch > 4019 CMOS quad 2-input mux > 4021 CMOS 8-bit shift reg > 4049 CMOS hex inv buffer > 4066 CMOS quad bilateral switch > MM5221 mask prog. ROM (no idea what's on them) > > Brian > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 8 21:41:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > So what is suprising that the Apple 'went backwards' from a card with > hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger. Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 9 06:20:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:20:48 +0000 Subject: Advent Systems? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1123586448.4210.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 22:54 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I thought it was Advent Imaging, but anyway... > > > > Quite possible someone made a mistake in writing the disk labels of > > course (they're copies, not originals) > > > > > Advent were a major user of PERQs in the UK at one time. I got my T4 (!) > > > > Nice! :) I gather the T4's pretty rare... > > I believe only 2 are known... Heh. I've got the CPU Techref from Dave (which I suspect came from you originally - looks like your writing on the envelope!). Even that mentions the T4 as being extremely rare. > > I think one of the PERQ boards I picked up yesterday's probably an OIO. > > I've got one complete machine (but currently totally dismantled) with > > landscape monitor, keyboard etc. from Dave W. (PNX on the 5.25" disk) > > They're not hard to put together. The boards go into the cardcage with > the chips facing the RHS of the machine, and the boards are keyed so they > can't go in the wrong slots. From the left, the slots are : CPU Option > (nearly always empty, although a few hackers put a tape streamer card in > there), CPU, Memory, EIO, OIO. Yep, I didn't expect it to be too difficult. I can't hang onto the machine for long as it's taking up car space in the garage - but I am tempted to put it back together here and have a play with it :-) > The landscape monitor is a Moniterm chassis. They are _very_ unreliable. > The CRTs lose emission, the EHT blocks (a partially-potted module, there > is no schematic in the official service manual) fail too. I must do a > workarounf for the latter sometime. The KME Portrait monitors (as on the > T1s) are a lot more reliable. Yikes. This one does work apparently; it was last booted only a week ago. 1280x1024 isn't bad considering the age of the machine... Hmm, not sure if I have cables between monitor and chassis yet - I think they might still be at Dave's place. I really need to talk myself into *not* attempting to keep this machine though, no room! :-) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 9 08:25:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:25:26 -0400 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? References: <023901c59c7c$f9135a40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <17144.44742.833592.191009@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Allain writes: >> ...transfer the custom fonts to the terminal. ...this method >> ...can redefine and line up the characters so that they form a >> picture, John> recalling... I thought the problem with that was you could John> only define 256 characters at a time, and when you tried to John> load a new set of bitpatterns, all instances old and new John> onscreen would change, making only a picture with 256 unique John> cells (no more) possible. Don't know if this is a fact, but John> that's what the spec seemed to say to me at the time. A full John> screen could be up to more like 24x80=1920 characters. A lot John> could still be done with even that. Another possible problem: John> fixed inter-character gaps. Perhaps someone here has actually John> Done this. That sounds right. Given that the VT220 is a character display terminal, it's refreshing from a character buffer via the character bitmap memory. If the bitmap memory changes, so does the display. If you don't want that, you need a terminal with a bitmap display memory -- the VT240, or the PRO for that matter... Ignoring the issue of inter-char gaps (don't know about that, easy enough to test), you should aim for a graphic design where all the elements together can be encoded in however many fixed and programmable character bitpatterns there are. That way you load things once, and the display then becomes a changing pattern of characters. Again, that was common on PLATO, which had (62) loadable characters. For example, the display for PacMan could be done that way. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 9 08:47:35 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:47:35 +0100 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? In-Reply-To: <17144.44742.833592.191009@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000201c59ce8$e730adc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Ignoring the issue of inter-char gaps I had a command file once that would download characters to the VT220 and then use them to display "cute" propmts (Snoopy and the like). One of the prompts was a sports car and, IIRC, appeared to be wide enough to require two characters. I don't remember a gap there so I suspect that there is no inter-character gap (at least in the horizontal direction). Antonio From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 10:24:08 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:24:08 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? Message-ID: I need a system disk badly. I posted on some news groups but got no answer. If you have one, would you please make a system disk for me? I will appreciate it and pay your cost. vax, 9000 From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Aug 9 10:37:01 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:37:01 -0400 Subject: Removing conductive foam residue from IC pins? Message-ID: <42F8CD9D.8080308@jcwren.com> I have a bunch of old ICs that were stored in conductive foam, and I wish to move them to plastic tubes. The foam has decayed to that state where it just crumbles when touched. Any recommendations for cleaning off this old foam? It can be scraped off, to some degree, with fingernails, but I risk bending the pins, and it's not all that thorough. Soaking them in alcohol is probably not a good idea. :) --jc From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 9 13:42:24 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:42:24 -0500 Subject: DEC computing stuff up for sale. (early '80s) Message-ID: Got a bunch of classic computing junk up for sale, here it is: DEC RL02 Disk drive x2 - $150 ea RLV12 controller and cable - $30 with drive purchase only H9644 chassis with side panels and back door, and trim pieces for RA82 setup - free for local pickup DQ130 Pertec disk controller - free with purchase, no cabkit DEQNA adapter, unknown revision - $10, no cabkit BA11-SE expansion chassis with cover and expander card in it - $75, clean unblemished faceplate. Rack mount SCSI expansion chassis, with partial side rails, $60, very nice piece See something you like, make me an offer. These are asking prices From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 9 14:01:40 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:01:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44561.162.123.17.82.1123614100.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> > I need a system disk badly. I posted on some news groups but got no > answer. If you have one, would you please make a system disk for me? I > will appreciate it and pay your cost. I have a 1650B. I can send a disk, but in the interest of providing more information, you should Google for LIFUTIL It can be used in a DOS machine to create a system disk. The version I dloaded included system disk images for 165X machines. I can also email the utility to you, later tonight. There is a version of LIFUTIL for Linux, as I recall. The DOS version has to be run on a real DOS box, not a DOS window. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 14:11:50 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:11:50 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: <44561.162.123.17.82.1123614100.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> References: <44561.162.123.17.82.1123614100.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Jim ,Philip and Jim. Jim Kearney sent me the image and the utility program. I will try my several drives to create the system disk. I will let you know the result. vax, 9000 On 8/9/05, Jim Brain wrote: > > I have a 1650B. > > I can send a disk, but in the interest of providing more information, you > should Google for LIFUTIL It can be used in a DOS machine to create a > system disk. The version I dloaded included system disk images for 165X > machines. I can also email the utility to you, later tonight. There is a > version of LIFUTIL for Linux, as I recall. The DOS version has to be run > on a real DOS box, not a DOS window. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 9 15:28:41 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:28:41 -0500 Subject: New Figurematic Today Message-ID: <000a01c59d21$2a768860$78406b43@66067007> I picked up a Marchant figurematic model 8ADX today at an auction from a guy that got it with some other items in the lot that he purchased. It had a power cord with it but by the time we meet in the parking lot to do the deal he had lost it. Anyone know a source for a power cord for this machine? Thanks John From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 9 16:41:11 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:41:11 -0500 Subject: Problem using st.exe to push data off to tape Message-ID: I'm trying to use John Wilson's ST.EXE program for DOS to push data off to magtape on my Qualstar 1260S connected to an Adaptec 2902, but it stops with a media error on every tape I try. Here's what I have done: - Created a DOS boot disk with only the aspi8dos.sys driver loading - Defined my TAPE variable as SCSI5: The tape files and st.exe are stored on a fat16-formatted IDE drive. That is all that is on there, and the disk was freshly formatted. Here's what happens when various commands are issued: - st iput filename.ext 512 - tape goes back and forth then stops with a media error - st write - tape goes back and forth and then goes back to a dos prompt. I try to do 'st rew' after this, but then it does what looks like the 'write' operation - st weof - "on line" light blinks continuously. This doesn't always happen, sometimes it does the 'st write' behavior. So, thus far, I have no boot tapes. Can anyone help me out with this? Thanks Julian From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 9 17:00:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:00:08 -0400 Subject: New Figurematic Today In-Reply-To: <000a01c59d21$2a768860$78406b43@66067007> References: <000a01c59d21$2a768860$78406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <42F92768.nailE9K1MX2BD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [Marchant figurematic 8ADX] Anyone know a source for a power cord > for this machine? Is it circular with two cylindrical prongs in the jack? This was semi-common on office equipment in the 40's/50's/60's. I don't know where to buy them new, but keep an eye open for other office equipment from that era. If you can find similar shape/size contacts in any of the "modern" plug/receptacle lines, one common technique is to crimp the contacts onto wires and then mold (using epoxy, hard silicone/RTV, etc.) a new plug around them. For just dinking around many of us have been known to use alligator clips :-). Tim. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 9 17:35:17 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:35:17 -0500 Subject: New Figurematic Today References: <000a01c59d21$2a768860$78406b43@66067007> <42F92768.nailE9K1MX2BD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <002901c59d32$9fead4a0$27406b43@66067007> Thanks for the tip and yes it's circular with two cylindrical prongs. This unit was made in 1953. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shoppa" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: New Figurematic Today >> [Marchant figurematic 8ADX] Anyone know a source for a power cord >> for this machine? > > Is it circular with two cylindrical prongs in the jack? This > was semi-common on office equipment in the 40's/50's/60's. I don't > know where to buy them new, but keep an eye open for other office > equipment from that era. > > If you can find similar shape/size contacts in any of the "modern" > plug/receptacle lines, one common technique is to crimp the contacts > onto wires and then mold (using epoxy, hard silicone/RTV, etc.) a > new plug around them. > > For just dinking around many of us have been known to use alligator > clips :-). > > Tim. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 9 18:41:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:41:30 Subject: Removing conductive foam residue from IC pins? In-Reply-To: <42F8CD9D.8080308@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050809184130.42077692@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've found that hot water gets it off about as well as anything. But nothing seems to remove ALL of it. Joe At 11:37 AM 8/9/05 -0400, you wrote: > I have a bunch of old ICs that were stored in conductive foam, and I >wish to move them to plastic tubes. The foam has decayed to that state >where it just crumbles when touched. Any recommendations for cleaning >off this old foam? It can be scraped off, to some degree, with >fingernails, but I risk bending the pins, and it's not all that thorough. > > Soaking them in alcohol is probably not a good idea. :) > > --jc > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 17:10:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:10:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 power In-Reply-To: <20050808235713.986E1BB471@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> from "Tim" at Aug 8, 5 07:57:13 pm Message-ID: > The power supply I have for my two RK8s (RK03s) is made by Pertec > and is called the model 9000. Depending on how many drives it can Are you sure that what you have are RK03s? The reason I question it is that the power voltages you've given for your PSU are totally wrong for the Diablo Model 30. And there was an older DEC drive, I think it was the RK01, that was a rebadged Pertec. > be a 9001, 9003, or 9004. It shows +5, +12, -26, +24. The 9004 > adds -24v. I hope this information is helpful to someone. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 17:16:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:16:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 8, 5 07:41:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So what is suprising that the Apple 'went backwards' from a card with > > hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger. > > Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card > manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual. You are going to love this... I can't find the manual for the bit-banger card (I know I have it _somewhere_). I did find one of the actual cards, the PCB etch and the PROMs are copyright 1978. I also found the manual for the Communication Card you have. It's _also_ copyright 1978, the date on the schematic and source listing in the manual are 1978 too... Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 9 18:16:04 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:16:04 -0700 Subject: Problem using st.exe to push data off to tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508091616.04541.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 09 August 2005 14:41, Julian Wolfe wrote: --snip-- > Here's what happens when various commands are issued: > > > > - st iput filename.ext 512 - tape goes back and forth then stops > with a media error > > - st write - tape goes back and forth and then goes back to a dos > prompt. I try to do 'st rew' after this, but then it does what looks like > the 'write' operation > > - st weof - "on line" light blinks continuously. This doesn't > always happen, sometimes it does the 'st write' behavior. > > > > So, thus far, I have no boot tapes. Can anyone help me out with this? Julian, I've successfully used ST to read and create tapes on some drives... Typically, I use a SCSI HP 88780 (800/1600/6250) tape drive, a SCSI Iomega ZIP drive and an IDE CDROM. I happen to be using a BUSLOGIC SCSI controller - but a similar Adaptec controller with the appropriate driver should work as well. OS: DOS 6.22 My config.sys is: device=c:\dos\himem.sys dos=high files=40 device=c:\dos\ansi.sys device=c:\buslogic\btdosm.sys /d device=c:\cdrom\ide.sys /d:idecd000 /udma /q My autoexec.bat is: @echo off prompt $p$g path c:\dos; --- (lots of stuff) mscdex /d:idecd000 /l:e I have found ST to work in this configuration very reliably with the various HP tape drives. However, when I've tried to use the same configuration with a DEC TK50Z I have found it will read TK50 tapes - but has similar issues writing and controlling tapes (BSF, FSF, etc.) that you have experienced with your tape drive. My guess is that the HP drives meet SCSI specs better (they are SCSI-2) - while the DEC TK50 is SCSI-1 (at best). It could also be a nasty timing issue - but I've not looked at and debugged the ST source to see precisely what the problem is... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 9 19:03:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:03:35 -0400 Subject: New Figurematic Today In-Reply-To: <002901c59d32$9fead4a0$27406b43@66067007> References: <000a01c59d21$2a768860$78406b43@66067007> <42F92768.nailE9K1MX2BD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <002901c59d32$9fead4a0$27406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <42F94457.nailIXO1129CU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > yes it's circular with two cylindrical prongs Actually there's at least a couple of configurations, but look for Monroe calculator cables and the non-IBM electric typewriters. If you've got an old-time typewriter repair shop in your neighborhood that'd be a real good place to shop. The last typewriter repair shop in Washington DC closed down last month unfortunately! But try other old-line stationery supply stores etc too. e.g. NOT STAPLES, NOT OFFICE DEPOT, etc. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 9 19:08:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:08:04 -0400 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42F94564.nailJ4B1V4YLW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. Probably true. I remember in the late 70's timeframe that the bit-banger one was often sold by shops along with serial printers, and a fair number of those were sold. What card did Apple use to drive the Silentype? Was it the bit-bang serial card we're talking about, or something special? I remember friends who called it "the Silentype card". Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 9 19:09:43 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:09:43 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: <4c308674fb7587208463b2e2faabdb79@bitsavers.org> And there was an older DEC drive, I think it was the RK01, that was a rebadged Pertec. -- The RK01 was made by IOMEC (also sold by HP as 2870A) and was used in the RK8 (NOT the Omnibus RK8E) I have the drawings for the RK8, which will go up on bitsavers as soon as the RK8 manual arrives from NL. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 9 19:46:03 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Removing conductive foam residue from IC pins? In-Reply-To: <42F8CD9D.8080308@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20050810004603.32707.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > Soaking them in alcohol is probably not a good > idea. :) It's probaby not the best idea to *soak* them in alcohol, but a quick dip followed by a boar-bristle brush would probably be just the ticket. --Bill From tradde at excite.com Tue Aug 9 19:59:01 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: <20050810005901.746D2B6EC@xprdmailfe18.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 08/09, Tony Duell < ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > wrote: From: Tony Duell [mailto: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:10:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Diablo 30 power > The power supply I have for my two RK8s (RK03s) is made by Pertec
> and is called the model 9000. Depending on how many drives it can

Are you sure that what you have are RK03s? The reason I question it is
that the power voltages you've given for your PSU are totally wrong for
the Diablo Model 30. And there was an older DEC drive, I think it was the
RK01, that was a rebadged Pertec.

> be a 9001, 9003, or 9004. It shows +5, +12, -26, +24. The 9004
> adds -24v. I hope this information is helpful to someone.

-tony

My mistake. I was under the impression these were RK03s. Now I understand they are indeed RK01s. What is the density of an RK01 pack versus and RK03. I think the RK03s held 2.5Mb per pack? _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 9 21:06:37 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:06:37 -0700 Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: <7a968c242cc8894df4b502d61a010175@bitsavers.org> I was under the impression these were RK03s. Now I understand they are indeed RK01s. -- DEC never sold Pertec drives, though lots of third parties did. They most often showed up as Plesey add-ons. What you probably have is some variant of the D4000. They came as fixed/removable, just removable, 2315 front-load or 5440 top-load packs. The 2315 flavor was compatible to RK05's, 5440's were 5mb. Just checked, I have the D4000 service manual scanned, but it isn't up on bitsavers. I'll see about getting that done. From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 21:34:30 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:34:30 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: <44561.162.123.17.82.1123614100.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> Message-ID: After several hours of struggling with three of my HD drives and three of my computers, I finally made the system disk and the 1650B booted successfully. Thank you three again. Now I need to make one pad. I heard that there are terminators in the pads. What value are those resistors and how they are connected to power and ground? I guess if I use short wires I would not need them. Am I right? I plan to use some IDE ribbon cables. Any information is welcome. vax, 9000 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 9 22:29:01 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:29:01 -0700 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? Message-ID: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> What value are those resistors and how they are connected to power and ground? -- They are the same as the 16500 series. It is an RC network, and they are needed. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/AP1244-1_minimProbIntrusion.pdf describes the circuit. From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 23:07:44 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:07:44 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/9/05, Al Kossow wrote: > They are the same as the 16500 series. > > It is an RC network, and they are needed. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/AP1244-1_minimProbIntrusion.pdf > describes the circuit. Thank you. I decided to buy some other than to build. I can't even plug in the IDE HD 40 pin cables because the holes on the back panel are very narrow. vax, 9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 23:09:32 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:09:32 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: By the way, who wants a 1650B? I have source to buy another one (no disk, I can make one anyway; no pod/cable) with $75. vax, 9000 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 10 01:01:28 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 23:01:28 -0700 Subject: AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! References: Message-ID: <42F99838.9B6F41B8@msm.umr.edu> Sellam, I'm going to try to encourage you in the face of potential disaster, but he did say he'd had the thing hanging on his wall for years. this may have been a butchering of the English language by a brit in the tense department, and he may be refering to a scrapping that happend long ago. I know it's a reach. Fortunately the LGP-30 that John bought was grabbed from the jaws of tidy bugs and rescued due to the attention of the seller. Jim Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5227183199 > > Read the description, then weep. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 10 01:25:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:25:31 -0400 Subject: OT: HP Handheld Conference 2005 Message-ID: <200508100634.j7A6YXWK016160@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.holyjoe.net/hhc2005/ Anyone going? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From unibus at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 03:31:03 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:31:03 +1000 Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? In-Reply-To: <200508091700.j79H02D4017884@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508091700.j79H02D4017884@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:15:32 -0700 > From: "Brian Knittel" > Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? > Anyone have any info on the M5799? MM5799 is another COPS part > > Others, can not determine what they are. Any ideas? I can go back and > try to get manufacturer letters: > 5737 MM5737 is an 8-Digit, calculator > 5782 MM5782 is a COPS Memory and processor element > 7504 ??? > 7506 ??? > 7515 ??? > 7517 ??? > 8096 DM8096 is a Tri-State Hex Buffers, pin equivalent to 54/74366 > 8098 DM8098 is a Tri-State Hex Buffers, pin equivalent to 54/74368 > 8670 ??? > 8681 ??? > 8817 ??? > 16254 ??? > 60769 ??? > 141097 national semi, no idea Regards, Garry From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 10 04:04:59 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:04:59 +0100 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <21ad29984d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message 9000 VAX wrote: > By the way, who wants a 1650B? I have source to buy another one (no > disk, I can make one anyway; no pod/cable) with $75. Depends where this analyser is. If it's in the UK, I'll offer it a home. Shipping costs will be pretty high if it's outside the UK though. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc ... (((((YOU)))))((((ARE))))((((((FEELING))))))(((((SLEEPY))))) From tradde at excite.com Wed Aug 10 04:13:04 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Diablo 30 power Message-ID: <20050810091304.D149D3E61@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> --- On Tue 08/09, Al Kossow < aek at bitsavers.org > wrote: From: Al Kossow [mailto: aek at bitsavers.org] To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:06:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Diablo 30 power I was under the impression these were RK03s. Now I
understand they are indeed RK01s.

--

DEC never sold Pertec drives, though lots of third parties did.
They most often showed up as Plesey add-ons.

What you probably have is some variant of the D4000. They came
as fixed/removable, just removable, 2315 front-load or 5440
top-load packs. The 2315 flavor was compatible to RK05's, 5440's
were 5mb.

Just checked, I have the D4000 service manual scanned, but it isn't
up on bitsavers. I'll see about getting that done.

The disks have a "-8" designation on the edge, where the RK05s have the -16. So I am guessing they are half the density of an RK05 pack? I am still trying to get these to work. Something happened during transport. The drives operate somewhat, although a bit flaky at times it seems. It could be something with the controller too. I am waiting to receive the hardcopy of the rest of the documents for this to figure out the problem. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 10 04:39:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:39:17 -0400 Subject: Diablo 30 power In-Reply-To: <20050810091304.D149D3E61@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050810091304.D149D3E61@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <42F9CB45.nailA8411E0I8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The disks have a "-8" designation on the edge, where the RK05s have > the -16. I'm guessing this is the count of number of sector pulses per revolution of the pack. There are notches on the hub that generate these. PDP-8 RK05's are 16 sectors, PDP-11 RK05's are 12 sectors. I don't know about the RK01, but the RK02 through RK05 (excluding RK05F) all present the same geometry. In non-DEC uses, I believe there were 8-sectored packs in common use. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 10 05:28:47 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:28:47 -0400 Subject: Diablo 30 power In-Reply-To: <42F9CB45.nailA8411E0I8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050810091304.D149D3E61@xprdmailfe12.nwk.excite.com> <42F9CB45.nailA8411E0I8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42F9D6DF.nailCDK1VW3CI@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > but the RK02 through RK05 (excluding RK05F) all present the same > geometry Oops, now that my memory is returning, the RK02 was the same geometry but half-density. RK02 carts say "1100BPI", RK05 carts say "2200BPI". Was there a RK04? Tim. From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:22:37 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:22:37 -0400 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: <21ad29984d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> <21ad29984d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: It is in Northeast Ohio, USA On 8/10/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > 9000 VAX wrote: > > > By the way, who wants a 1650B? I have source to buy another one (no > > disk, I can make one anyway; no pod/cable) with $75. > > Depends where this analyser is. If it's in the UK, I'll offer it a home. > Shipping costs will be pretty high if it's outside the UK though. > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT > philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc > ... (((((YOU)))))((((ARE))))((((((FEELING))))))(((((SLEEPY))))) > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 09:30:21 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:30:21 -0700 Subject: RK04's Message-ID: <598de9bd1d4c3df90b8dadf4b395b752@bitsavers.org> Oops, now that my memory is returning, the RK02 was the same geometry but half-density. RK02 carts say "1100BPI", RK05 carts say "2200BPI". Was there a RK04? == page 1-1 of the RK11-C manual (RK11-C_manual1971.pdf) "The high-density option provides a choice of either the RK03 Diablo Disk Drive Unit or the RK05 DECpack Unit, both utilizing the RK03-KA, IBM Type 2315 12 sector high-density disk cartridge. The low-density option provides a choice of either the RK02 Diablo Disk Drive Unit or the RK04 DECKpack Unit, both utilizing the RK02-KA IBM Type 2315 12-sector low density disk cartridge". low density is 12 256 byte sectors (1100 bpi) high density is 12 512 byte sectors (2200 bpi) both are 203 cyls, 2 tracks. I can't imagine there were many RK04's made.. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 10 09:55:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So what is suprising that the Apple 'went backwards' from a card with > > > hardware serial conversion to a bit-banger. > > > > Maybe they didn't? What's the copyright date in the Apple Serial Card > > manual? I'll check the one in the Communications Card manual. > > You are going to love this... > > I can't find the manual for the bit-banger card (I know I have it > _somewhere_). I did find one of the actual cards, the PCB etch and the > PROMs are copyright 1978. > > I also found the manual for the Communication Card you have. It's _also_ > copyright 1978, the date on the schematic and source listing in the > manual are 1978 too... > > Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. I'll try to remember to check my manuals later today and see if each manual indicates the intended use of each card. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Aug 10 11:40:45 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:40:45 -0400 Subject: HP2648A terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01c599fe$25e5fea0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200508101641.j7AGeoOq007880@mail.bcpl.net> On 5 Aug 2005 at 21:42, Jim Beacon wrote: > does anyone have a manual for one of these? Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/02648-90002_ref_Aug79.pdf -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Aug 10 11:40:48 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:40:48 -0400 Subject: HP1000 A700 - what can I do with it? In-Reply-To: <200508052050.j75KojDg070236@keith.ezwind.net> References: Message-ID: <200508101640.j7AGeoOo007880@mail.bcpl.net> On 5 Aug 2005 at 21:41, Ade Vickers wrote: > Any ideas about incantations & terminal wiring would be much > appreciated. I would think that connecting the PC up as DTE, i.e., transmit data on pin 2 of the DB-25 connector, would do it. Depending on the particular I/O card in the A-series, and the expectations of your PC serial port, you may well have to wire up the modem control signals (e.g., CTS/RTS) as well. One additional consideration: HP systems demanded an HP terminal as the system console. Specifically, this meant that ENQ/ACK handshaking had to be supported. If output to your PC suddenly stops in the middle of a line, type CTRL+F to send an ACK. If that resumes output for a bit, then your system is looking for ENQ/ACK handshaking. > I have some RTE manuals, I think they relate to the A-series; not sure > if there's any hardware reference information in them... Do you have the PDF manuals from: http://www.hp.com/products1/rte/tech_support/documentation/index.html Note, in particular, that the RTE-A System Generation and Installation Manual (available from the above page) describes the VCP boot incantations in Appendix H. -- Dave From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Aug 10 12:40:25 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comprehensive Computer Catalog? Message-ID: <42128.127.0.0.1.1123695625.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Hans Pufal was maintaining the CCC for a time. I can't seem to find it anymore. Does anyone know where it currently resides or if it still exists? Thanks! -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From brother_cadfael at juno.com Wed Aug 10 14:52:01 2005 From: brother_cadfael at juno.com (brother_cadfael at juno.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:52:01 -0700 Subject: Damaged IBM 5225 Printer parts available Message-ID: <20050810.125202.4052.0.brother_cadfael@juno.com> This morning at work (auto repair shop) the scrap metal guy drove buy with this printer on the back of his truck. I did not get to it before one of my techs had gutted it for the cabinet. I was able to save the printer carriage assembly, what I think is the logic unit, and the power supply unit with the copper ribbon conductors intact. Are these parts worth saving, and if so, is anyone here interested? The power supply weighs in at 61kg's the printer isn't light either, maybe 20kg's so shipping is probably not practical. I can only hold them for a week or two due to a lack of space here at the shop. Thanks for any advice. Brian Hanson brother_cadfael at juno.com From brother_cadfael at juno.com Wed Aug 10 14:57:37 2005 From: brother_cadfael at juno.com (brother_cadfael at juno.com) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:57:37 -0700 Subject: Damaged IBM 5225 Printer, parts available II Message-ID: <20050810.125738.4052.1.brother_cadfael@juno.com> I forgot to mention that there are also 9 brand new sealed printer ribbons for this unit that I saved. Aftermarket replacements for IBM #4412372 From gtoal at gtoal.com Wed Aug 10 15:04:12 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:04:12 -0500 Subject: Calling Fred van Kempen! Message-ID: <42FA5DBC.mailD6I21EG0K@gtoal.com> I got a bounce while trying to mail you today. If you're still on the list can you mail me a working email address please? ... while talking to smtp.microwalt.nl.: >>> DATA <<< 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for waltje at pdp11.nl 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown <<< 554 5.5.2 No valid recipients I'm going to take you up on your offer of reading the GUTS RK05 pack, if we can arrange the delivery. My old Dad has volunteered to hand-carry it as far as Brugge if you can find someone who can meet him at the ferry there? Groetjes, Graham From joel.bradley at comcast.net Wed Aug 10 16:04:39 2005 From: joel.bradley at comcast.net (joel.bradley) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:04:39 -0500 Subject: Sony PIC-1000 Magic Link and other Control Data items Message-ID: <001001c59def$1f915550$6400a8c0@tbird> Hi gang - I am doing some house cleaning and found the following items. E-mail me if interested. I am not giving them away, but will sell for VERY reasonable prices. e-mail me with your best offer!: 1 - Sony Magic Link PIC-1000 3 - Belkin Pro Series 15 foot - DB25 Male/Female (serial) (NEW IN PACKAGE) 4 - Control Data Corporation Grey Ring Binders 4 - Control Data Coffee Mugs (white with green logo) 1 - Control Data Cyber 670 Manual yellow ring binder Thanks! Joel joel.bradley at comcast.net From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Aug 10 16:12:26 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:12:26 -0500 Subject: PDP11 message board Message-ID: Just wanted to let you guys know about the pdp11 message board I've been running. It's been up for awhile, I just never mentioned it on this list. http://pdpusers.dyndns.org Take a look! Julian From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Aug 10 17:25:10 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0500 Subject: Gaming System Lot on eBay Message-ID: <013601c59dfa$606c43e0$6b406b43@66067007> This thing is at $3151.01 and has not reached the reserve? http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-Personal-game-collection-for-sale-780-games_W0QQitemZ8209829711QQcategoryZ4315QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 17:51:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:51:32 -0500 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: <44561.162.123.17.82.1123614100.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050810175132.73ed0dc3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:34:30 -0400 9000 VAX wrote: > After several hours of struggling with three of my HD drives and three > of my computers, I finally made the system disk and the 1650B booted > successfully. Thank you three again. Now I need to make one pad. I > heard that there are terminators in the pads. What value are those > resistors and how they are connected to power and ground? I guess if I > use short wires I would not need them. Am I right? I plan to use some > IDE ribbon cables. Any information is welcome. > > vax, 9000 > Do you mean you need to make one pod? I don't know about the 1650, but in the 1630 and the 1610 line, the pod contains exotic high speed logic. You'll certainly need more than terminators. Is there anybody who has reverse engineered these things? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 17:12:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:12:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Diablo 30 power In-Reply-To: <42F9CB45.nailA8411E0I8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 10, 5 05:39:17 am Message-ID: > PDP-8 RK05's are 16 sectors, PDP-11 RK05's are 12 sectors. > > I don't know about the RK01, but the RK02 through RK05 (excluding > RK05F) all present the same geometry. Actaully, the geometry of the RK05f is the same as the RK05, it just appears as 2 drives. Each 'drive' has the same number of cylinders, heads, and sectors as a normal RK05. Was there ever a 16 sector version of the RK05f for the PDP8? I've only ever seen 12 sector ones. > > In non-DEC uses, I believe there were 8-sectored packs in common use. Somewhere I have at least one manual on the RK01. I seem to remember that was an 8 sector device, but I certainly wouldn't put any money on that :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 17:16:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:16:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK04's In-Reply-To: <598de9bd1d4c3df90b8dadf4b395b752@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 10, 5 07:30:21 am Message-ID: > page 1-1 of the RK11-C manual (RK11-C_manual1971.pdf) > > "The high-density option provides a choice of either > the RK03 Diablo Disk Drive Unit or the RK05 DECpack > Unit, both utilizing the RK03-KA, IBM Type 2315 12 > sector high-density disk cartridge. The low-density > option provides a choice of either the RK02 Diablo > Disk Drive Unit or the RK04 DECKpack Unit, both > utilizing the RK02-KA IBM Type 2315 12-sector low > density disk cartridge". > > low density is 12 256 byte sectors (1100 bpi) > high density is 12 512 byte sectors (2200 bpi) > > both are 203 cyls, 2 tracks. > > I can't imagine there were many RK04's made.. And not all controllers supported them. The RK11-C has a bit of logic on it to provide a half-freqeuncy clock for the RK02/RK04 mode (it's half the bit densirt round the track). AFAIK the RK11-D doesn't. The RK11-C would appear to support RK02, RK03, RK04, RK05 using 1-of-n selects. The RK11-D would appear to be RK05 _only_ -- it requires a drive that supports binary selects (which rules out the 02/03) and it doesn't do low density. I've never seen an RK04 or any manuals for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 17:21:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:21:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 10, 5 07:55:47 am Message-ID: > > Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. > > That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant > for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card > was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I first came across it with a Qume Sprint 5 hooked up to it), and Apple used ETX/ACK protocol _because_ you then know when the peripheral is possibly going to send something (unlike XON/XOFF when the peripheral could send said characters at any time). The 6850-based card is going to be a lot better for input, but it's a more complicated and therefore expensive (I guess) card. But more suiltable if you want to hang a terminal off the Apple (e.g. for running the P-system [1]). [1] As you doubtless know, the Apple P-system checks for a card in slot 3, and if it finds one, uses it (with the firmware drivers on that card) for text I/O. Most people put an 80 column card there, the firmware of which used the Apple keyboard for input, but there's no reason why you can't put a serial card linked to a dumb terminal there. The manual gives examples of how to set this up. > > I'll try to remember to check my manuals later today and see if each > manual indicates the intended use of each card. The bit-banger card also supports current loop operation, and the manual gives instructions for linking it to an ASR33 (!). -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 10 18:30:08 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gaming System Lot on eBay In-Reply-To: <013601c59dfa$606c43e0$6b406b43@66067007> from "Keys" at Aug 10, 2005 05:25:10 PM Message-ID: <200508102330.j7ANU99P006530@onyx.spiritone.com> > > This thing is at $3151.01 and has not reached the reserve? > http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-Personal-game-collection-for-sale-780-games_W0QQitemZ8209829711QQcategoryZ4315QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > Geez, on one hand it seems more than a little high, yet at the same time I'm more than a little impressed by the collection of "Virtual Game Boy" games, I didn't realize there were that many games. The rest of the collection while nice, doesn't look that impressive (we'll, that Gamegear segment is pretty big also). I don't see a Neo Geo home system listed, or Stuff like an Oddessy. Realistically, it looks pretty bog-standard, and his idea of "rare" games is highly questionable. Zane From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Aug 10 18:32:40 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: While we're on the subject, does anyone have a source for the cable which connects the pod to the analyzer? I could use one or two more. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Aug 10 18:51:05 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:51:05 -0700 Subject: sandia auction Message-ID: <42FA92E9.5060908@theriver.com> Bentley Auctioneers is having another Los Alamos/Sandia Labs and Pantex (your local nuclear bomb maker) auction in Albuquerque, New Mexico this weekend. Spotted were some Sun 3-80's and a Dec RL02 with probably other goodies. http://www.bentleysauction.com/misc/catalogs/nm081305.txt If your in the area, probably worth the drive. Cheers Tom From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 10 19:02:04 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calling Fred van Kempen! Message-ID: <20050811000204.D66D8183BF6@bitsavers.org> Several other people have been trying to contact Fred and not having any luck. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Aug 10 19:18:17 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:18:17 -0500 Subject: Who has an HP 1650B logic analyzer? In-Reply-To: References: <3b4b8bd3a6aae6fd91769215e68683ad@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42FA9949.4020606@jbrain.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > While we're on the subject, does anyone have a source for the cable > which connects the pod to the analyzer? I could use one or two more. I know this is heresy (considering the list), but they are available on eBay. Pods as well. eBay has a Logic Analyzer section Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Aug 10 19:38:10 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:38:10 -0400 Subject: PDP11 message board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FA9DF2.90301@compsys.to> I can never remember my userid and password. Do you have a guest account? I would like to look around to understand what other individuals are doing? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine >Wolfe, Julian wrote: >Just wanted to let you guys know about the pdp11 message board I've been >running. It's been up for awhile, I just never mentioned it on this list. > > > >http://pdpusers.dyndns.org > > > >Take a look! > > > >Julian > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 10 20:44:00 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:44:00 -0500 Subject: PDP11 message board In-Reply-To: <42FA9DF2.90301@compsys.to> Message-ID: I changed it so you can read without posting. Not sure why that option was set. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP11 message board I can never remember my userid and password. Do you have a guest account? I would like to look around to understand what other individuals are doing? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine >Wolfe, Julian wrote: >Just wanted to let you guys know about the pdp11 message board I've been >running. It's been up for awhile, I just never mentioned it on this list. > > > >http://pdpusers.dyndns.org > > > >Take a look! > > > >Julian > > From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 10 20:53:25 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:53:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Panasonic phone system FS Message-ID: <000801c59e17$76c16770$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: ARRRGH! I just {stupidly} bid on and won a Panasonic 616 phone system to experiment with the BBS project that was discussed last week. Unfortunately, this is NOT the right model -- I got the all-digital version and not the hybrid. Does anyone need a working 6x16 phone system for something other than a BBS project? I'm looking for $75 for it -- I'll eat the shipping. It includes the KSU and 4 extensions; supposedly working/removed from service. Other options include a trade for a hybrid 308/616/1232 model. Please contact off-list if interested. Thanks Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Aug 10 23:33:27 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:33:27 -1000 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. Message-ID: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> Anyone here have the speech module for an IBM PC Convertible they want to get rid of? I just got one of these laptops & was hoping to score one. David M. Vohs Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. "Scout": Otrona Attache. (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + "Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. "Neon": Zenith Minisport. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 11 07:33:10 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:33:10 +0100 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment Message-ID: <42FB4586.3020003@gjcp.net> This is something we don't hear a lot about on the list. A lot of it is on-topic, and some of the more obscure kit was based on fairly common single-board computers of their day. The PPG Wave could run From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 11 07:35:22 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:35:22 +0100 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment Message-ID: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> This is something we don't hear a lot about on the list. A lot of it is on-topic, and some of the more obscure kit was based on fairly common single-board computers of their day. The PPG Wave ran Flex on its Eurocom II board (powered by a 6809). The Fairlight was based on two 6809 CPUs. There was the old Greengate kit that plugged into Apple IIs, and an editor for the Ensoniq Mirage that again ran on an Apple II. I don't know what the Simmons SDX used but apparently it was a fairly common SBC. I know the SDS7 has a 6802 on the CPU board. Gordon. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 11 08:11:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:11:31 -0400 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment In-Reply-To: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> References: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42FB4E83.5030002@atarimuseum.com> Hybrid Arts had a MIDI interface kit for the Atari 8bit line of computers. Hybrid Arts was brought in and consulted with by Atari who intergrated MIDI into their ST line of computers and was probably one of the Atari ST's saving graces vs. the Amiga. Curt Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > This is something we don't hear a lot about on the list. > A lot of it is on-topic, and some of the more obscure kit was based on > fairly common single-board computers of their day. The PPG Wave ran > Flex on its Eurocom II board (powered by a 6809). The Fairlight was > based on two 6809 CPUs. > There was the old Greengate kit that plugged into Apple IIs, and an > editor for the Ensoniq Mirage that again ran on an Apple II. > > I don't know what the Simmons SDX used but apparently it was a fairly > common SBC. I know the SDS7 has a 6802 on the CPU board. > > Gordon. > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.6/69 - Release Date: 8/11/2005 From computer at officereach.net Thu Aug 11 08:25:23 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:25:23 -0700 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. In-Reply-To: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: you have names for all of your computers? Beacuse I started looking at the list and didn't remember Commodore ever having a computer called a "Triumph". wow. -----Original Message----- From: "David Vohs" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:33:27 -1000 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. > Anyone here have the speech module for an IBM PC Convertible > they want to get rid of? > I just got one of these laptops & was hoping to score one. > David M. Vohs > Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, > MPS-801. > "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. > "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. > "Scout": Otrona Attache. > (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. > "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + > "Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. > "Neon": Zenith Minisport. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 11 08:37:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:37:30 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. In-Reply-To: References: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <42FB549A.1020001@atarimuseum.com> David - where did you get the name TMA-1 for the Atari Portfolio? Internally, all of its design notes and memo references call it PC0 Curt plato computer wrote: >you have names for all of your computers? Beacuse I started looking at >the list and didn't remember Commodore ever having a computer called >a "Triumph". wow. > >-----Original Message----- >From: "David Vohs" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:33:27 -1000 >Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. > > > >>Anyone here have the speech module for an IBM PC Convertible >>they want to get rid of? >>I just got one of these laptops & was hoping to score one. >>David M. Vohs >>Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian >> >>Computer Collection: >> >>"Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, >>MPS-801. >>"Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. >>"Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. >>"Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. >>"Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. >>"Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. >>"Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. >>"Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. >>"Scout": Otrona Attache. >>(prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. >>"TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + >>"Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. >>"Neon": Zenith Minisport. >> >> >> > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.6/69 - Release Date: 8/11/2005 From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 08:55:42 2005 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:55:42 -0500 Subject: IBM PC Convertible Speech Module. In-Reply-To: <42FB549A.1020001@atarimuseum.com> References: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> <42FB549A.1020001@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <78ff9a21050811065532ea7c4b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/11/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > David - where did you get the name TMA-1 for the Atari Portfolio? > Internally, all of its design notes and memo references call it PC0 > > > Curt Tycho Magnetic Anomaly - 1 from 2001: a space odyssey. I see we have Monolith also, but where's HAL and Dave? kelly From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Aug 11 10:13:01 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comprehensive Computer Catalog? In-Reply-To: <42128.127.0.0.1.1123695625.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <42128.127.0.0.1.1123695625.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <38195.127.0.0.1.1123773181.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> On Wed, August 10, 2005 10:40 am, Erik Klein said: > Hans Pufal was maintaining the CCC for a time. I can't seem to find it > anymore. > > Does anyone know where it currently resides or if it still exists? I'm answering my own question here although it was answered by another at http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/viewtopic.php?t=2122 The CCC is currently at http://www.citem.org/CCC/ I'm pretty sure this info has passed through these servers before, but I couldn't find it. Cheers! -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 11 10:36:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:36:29 -0500 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment In-Reply-To: <42FB4E83.5030002@atarimuseum.com> References: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> <42FB4E83.5030002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050811102907.0444a9f8@mail> At 08:11 AM 8/11/2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Hybrid Arts had a MIDI interface kit for the Atari 8bit line of computers. Hybrid Arts was brought in and consulted with by Atari who intergrated MIDI into their ST line of computers and was probably one of the Atari ST's saving graces vs. the Amiga. Atari partisan revisionist. :-) The very first piece of hardware I had for my Amiga was a MIDI dongle from Amiga Corp. that plugged into the serial port. It was a handmade, bare, uncased prototype they sent me as a developer interested in making MIDI software. Very little glue is needed to support MIDI if a computer's UART can handle the speed. - John From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 11 11:26:28 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:26:28 +0100 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050811102907.0444a9f8@mail> References: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> <42FB4E83.5030002@atarimuseum.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050811102907.0444a9f8@mail> Message-ID: <42FB7C34.3060109@gjcp.net> John Foust wrote: > Very little glue is needed to support MIDI if a computer's > UART can handle the speed. The problem is that even if your UART can (it's only 31250 baud) then there is no ratio that divides cleanly to give that and other "normal" ratios. I made a MIDI card for the PC by replacing the clock generator with one that *did* divide correctly, and subsequently made another that does 62500 baud for the internal comms bus in my ESQ-1, when the screen broke. The software to interpret the control codes was a whole other story though... Gordon. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 12:25:49 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:25:49 -0700 Subject: M9312 prom archive? Message-ID: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> There was a long discussion about creating an archive of 'em, but it doesn't appear that anything ever happened. Jay offered to create www.classiccmp.org/M9312, but that doesn't appear to exist. Pete Turnbull has a list of part numbers, but no images. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Aug 11 12:50:55 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:50:55 -0500 Subject: M9312 prom archive? In-Reply-To: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: M9312 PROM goodness to be found at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/boot/prom/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:26 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: M9312 prom archive? There was a long discussion about creating an archive of 'em, but it doesn't appear that anything ever happened. Jay offered to create www.classiccmp.org/M9312, but that doesn't appear to exist. Pete Turnbull has a list of part numbers, but no images. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 16:12:27 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:12:27 -0700 Subject: M9312 prom archive? Message-ID: <0b0877f8b1b1b75180a2f185a9021e4b@bitsavers.org> > M9312 PROM goodness to be found at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/boot/prom/ These are John's own versions of the code, and are just disk bootstraps. I was trying to locate the MU boot prom for someone. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 11 17:16:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:16:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly Message-ID: Sellam mentioned that Apple ][ Comms card the other day... Thinking I should have one, I went digging in the depths of my workshop and found a box of mostly Apple ][ cards. I am not really an Apple person, so perhaps somebody sould tell me what I've found... All are Apple ][ plug-in cards unless I state otherwise. Wildport Ltd 6522 VIA card. Contains a 6522 (Duh..) and a '04 only. Has a lenght of 26 way ribbon cable connected by a permanent transition connector, other end unterminated. Probably a user I/O card. MTL APC.1.1 (that's in the PCB etc, no other identification). Cotnains 6821, 6850, 1488, 1489, '04, 2-off '151, and a 4060. Also a 2.4576 MHz crystal. Ther's a 20 pin header with nothing plugged into it, and a 10 pin SIL header with a cable ending in a DB25-P connector. Obviously a serial card, the 4060 divides down the Xtal to give the baud clocks, these are selected by the '151s to give the Tx nad Rx clocks to the 6850. >From a glance at the board, it would appear one port of the 6821 goes to the 20 pin header, the other controls the 151s (baud selection). Note there's no firmware ROM on this board. Another MTL APC.1.1 Apple Super Serial Card II.6551 + 2316 + TTL + RS232 drivers. I think I recognise this :-) CCS Asynchornous Serial Interface Assy No 07710-0001A. Another RS232 card. Containss 6850, 75150, 75154 (RS232 driver and receiver), 8304, 2 PROMs, '09, '136, '03, 4702 (baud rate generator). 4 position DIP switch marked 'Baud Rate'. 26 pin header, presumably for an RS232 cable. Epson APL Board Unit G479501000-0. Nothing to do with the language, I think, just an Epson printer interface. Contains a 2708 EPROM + TTL. 16 pin header, presumably parallel printer interface. Wesper Microsystems Wizard IPI. Assy 80003601. Looks to be another printer interface. has an EPORM la=belled EPSON/G10X + TTL Sync Printer Inerface Card. Apple. TTL + 2 off 2112 RAM + ROM. Has a DE9 connector at the front edge. I think this is a Silentype interface. Mountain Computer ROMWRITERTTL + a couple of 555 timers + a 24 pin ZIF socket + discretes. Clearly an EPROM programmer. Apple/PC link interface. 2716 EPROM + TTL + buffers + M58725 (?). One 20 pin header near back of card. No idea! Advanced Text Systems P.001 6520 + a couple of '16s + space for more buffers. Had a bit of ribbon cable soldered to it, with a DB25-P on the end. No idea! Another Mountain Computer ROMWRITER MEMOSOFT Made In France. Contains 6850 + TTL. Also 3486 and 3487 (buffers?) never soldered in + space for passives and a 2716 EPROM. 6 solder pins at the front of the board, seem to go to the buffers. Maybe some kind of network card? ICE LTD Apple Cold Boot Adapter. EPROM + 6116 RAM + TTL. One 26 pin header that might go to ... P-DJ2-301-B Not an Apple card, this looks to be a hard disk controller. 26 pin header at one end, 34 pin + 2 off 20 pin at ther other, and a disk drive like power connector. Z80A + EPROM + 2 off 2114 + TTL + SCX6225NCM/V5 KONAN (what the heck is that?) + 8465 (data separator IIRC) PROG RWP 8255 + EPROM + 78S40 (SMPSU chip) + '158 + 28 pin ZIF socket. Another EPROM programmer board. ICE Multiplexor Host Adaptor 2716 + 6116 + TTL. One 20 pin header RML PIP card (nothing to do iwth the Apple ][). A 380Z board with 3 off Z80 PIO and a Z80 CTC + TTL on it. 50 pin RML 380Z bus header connector. Prototyping area. 2 off Videx 80 column (?) cards. Cotnain 46505 (CRT controller, 4 off 2114 RAM, 2 off EPROM + socket for another EPROM (char gen and firmware?), TTL Buffered Grappler+ (C) Orange Micro. 64K RAM (8 off 4864) + EPROM + TTL + a 40 pin chip (microcontroller?). 26 pin header (printer interface). Is this a printer buffer card? Microsoft Z80 card. Z80 + ROM + TTL. I know what this is.... Apple Clock Board. Maybe home-made (PCB is not plated-through). EPROM + 8253 + TTL. No external connections. Apple Parallel Interrupt Type 2. Looks to be the same origin as the last board.. EPROM + TTL. 10 pin header linked to a DA15 plug 2 off Communication Board. These aapear to the board Sellam was mentioning. 6850 + TTL + P2 PROM + 8304. 2 off Apple Parallel Printer Interface. TTL + P1 PROM. 20 pin external connector. I found the manual for this, so I know what it is (it's a centronincs-;like interface, the odd thing being that the busy line is an address input to the firmware PROM. The stnadard firmware goes into a loop waiting for the printer to go ready, when it does, the intructions read by the Apple are not the jump-round-the-loop, so it goes on and sends a characer). Watford Electronics 1770 module for the BBC micro (nothing to do with the Apple) Homebrew lightpen on stripboard with a 16 pin header connector. Presumably for the Apple ][ game port Wattford Electronics Sideways ZIF socket. PCB with a 28 pin ZIF socket and some resistor packs linked by ribbon cable to a 28 pin header. Presumably to fit in the 'ashtray' on a BBC micro to allow easy ROM swaping 2 of 'WORKSTATION' EPROMs, (C) University of Sussex. Probably for the BBC micro. Any ideas? A few more Beeb-related chips (Torch Z80 pack EPROMs, 8271, etc) Pracitcal Peripherals PROCLOCK. 6821 + MSM5382 (Real time clock chip) + EPROM + TTL. Oh, and a Lithium battery. Obvious what this is... Disk ][ Interface card. And yes, I know what it is... Heuristics 20A-1. TTL + 2 quad op-amps + 2 quad comparators + 2708. 3.5mm jcak socket. I think this might be a speech input card... Mountain Hardware Supertalker. TTL + PROM + 3418 _ 2 quad op-amps + LM380 audio amplifier. 3.5mm jack socket 'microphone input', 2.5mm jack socket 'speaker output). Speech I/O? 2 grotty dynamic microphones, probably for the last 2 card. Any thoughts? -tony From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 11 18:27:02 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:27:02 +0100 Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050812001652.0477db00@pop.freeserve.net> At 23:16 11/08/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >2 of 'WORKSTATION' EPROMs, (C) University of Sussex. Probably for the BBC >micro. Any ideas? Yep, for BBC. (At least, I have an image of a "Workstation" ROM, (C)1983 University of Sussex Computing Centre, so I presume it's the same thing!) It's a terminal emulator - VT52, 4010 or "dumb". The "setup" option only allows changing of baud rate, up to 9600, so it seems not to be a particularly sophisticated terminal emulator.. looks like it was a internal or low-distribution release, based on the apparent 4-digit serial No. on the title screen.. You didn't happen to come across a 6502 second processor did you? I'm after one, if cheap or for swaps.. Rob. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 11 18:56:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:56:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050812001652.0477db00@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Aug 12, 5 00:27:02 am Message-ID: > >2 of 'WORKSTATION' EPROMs, (C) University of Sussex. Probably for the BBC > >micro. Any ideas? > > Yep, for BBC. (At least, I have an image of a "Workstation" ROM, (C)1983 > University of Sussex Computing Centre, so I presume it's the same thing!) ALmost certainly is. > > It's a terminal emulator - VT52, 4010 or "dumb". The "setup" option only > allows changing of baud rate, up to 9600, so it seems not to be a What, no parity, etc, settings. Ouch! > particularly sophisticated terminal emulator.. looks like it was a > internal or low-distribution release, based on the apparent 4-digit serial > No. on the title screen.. There's a 4 digit hex serial number on the label of the EPROM too. Different numbers on the 2 EPROMS I have, of course. > > You didn't happen to come across a 6502 second processor did you? I'm > after one, if cheap or for swaps.. No, I only have one of those (I only have 1 each of the 6502, Z80, and ARM 1 second processors, and the large-board 32016 in the ACW). -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Aug 11 20:36:15 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:36:15 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly References: Message-ID: <42FBFD0F.B336AD95@msm.umr.edu> Apple's official RS232 interface for the ][ used only level shifters from TTL to +- 12. The 6502 would fiddle the levels and watch the control lines in software. If you have a controller with a UART on it, then it will need a driver chip and may not be useful with some apple aps. The card I have has a 12 or so pin ribbon cable actually fixed to the board by a header, and it dangles thru the apple2 slot and is clamped in place there by a metal bracket that pinches the cable and the case to make a firm installation. As I said, it has no chips larger than the 14 or 16 pin packages IIRC. I ran some sort of terminal emulator on it at one time, and I remember it had trouble over 1200 baud or so. Jim Tony Duell wrote: > Sellam mentioned that Apple ][ Comms card the other day... Thinking I > should have one, I went digging in the depths of my workshop and found a > box of mostly Apple ][ cards. I am not really an Apple person, so perhaps > somebody sould tell me what I've found... All are Apple ][ plug-in cards > unless I state otherwise. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 11 21:57:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:57:38 -0400 Subject: M9312 prom archive? References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000901c59ee9$9a3377c0$0100a8c0@screamer> I thought I sent you images of the ROM's I gave to Tom Uban... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:25 PM Subject: M9312 prom archive? > There was a long discussion about creating an archive of 'em, but > it doesn't appear that anything ever happened. Jay offered to create > www.classiccmp.org/M9312, but that doesn't appear to exist. Pete > Turnbull has a list of part numbers, but no images. > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 01:38:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. > > > > That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant > > for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card > > was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. > > Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine > for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I > first came across it with a Qume Sprint 5 hooked up to it), and Apple > used ETX/ACK protocol _because_ you then know when the peripheral is > possibly going to send something (unlike XON/XOFF when the peripheral > could send said characters at any time). Ok, here's what each manual says (note the publication dates): Communications Interface Card Installation and Operating Manual (10/78) These are the fundamental abilities of the APPLE Communications Interface, using the nearly universal RS232 standard: 1. Input for the APPLE II can be taken from an external device, instead of from the APPLE's keyboard. 2. Output from the APPLE II can be sent to an external device, to the APPLE's TV screen, or to both. 3. The APPLE II can be used as a terminal, in full-duplex mode or half-duplex mode, at 300 baud or 110 baud[*]. It can be put into (and taken out of) terminal modem, either from the APPLE keyboard or from the external device. 4. The BREAK signal can be sent from the keyboard. [*] My note: There are instructions in the back for modifying the card for 1200/300 baud operation or 4800/1200 baud operation. Serial Interface Card Installation and Operating Manual (3/79) These are the fundamental abilities of the APPLE Serial Interface, using the nearly universal RS232 standard: 1. Output from the APPLE II can be sent to a serial printer or other external serial device, to the APPLE's TV screen, or to both. The Serial Interface can supply the necessary line-feeds with carriage returns, etc. 2. Input for the APPLE II can be taken either from an external device or from the APPLE's keyboard, or from both simultaneously. 3. The APPLE II can handle half-duplex communications at rates from 75 to 19,200 baud, in both directions, with ap rinter, another APPLE,. a terminal, modem or other RS232 external device. 4. The Serial Interface can also be connected for current-loop operation with a Teletype. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 01:50:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Wildport Ltd 6522 VIA card. Contains a 6522 (Duh..) and a '04 only. Has a > lenght of 26 way ribbon cable connected by a permanent transition > connector, other end unterminated. Probably a user I/O card. Standard 6522 interface. The 04 is to invert one of the Apple's clock signals to be compatible with the 6522. > Epson APL Board Unit G479501000-0. Nothing to do with the language, I > think, just an Epson printer interface. Contains a 2708 EPROM + TTL. 16 > pin header, presumably parallel printer interface. I'm pretty sure it's a printer interface sold by Epson for their printers. I have a few of these. > Apple/PC link interface. 2716 EPROM + TTL + buffers + M58725 (?). One 20 > pin header near back of card. No idea! I think this is a card by Applied Engineering? Maybe not. But I think it allows connection to a PC-compatible disk drive(?) > Buffered Grappler+ (C) Orange Micro. 64K RAM (8 off 4864) + EPROM + TTL + > a 40 pin chip (microcontroller?). 26 pin header (printer interface). Is > this a printer buffer card? Yes, and a nice one. > 2 off Communication Board. These aapear to the board Sellam was > mentioning. 6850 + TTL + P2 PROM + 8304. Somewhat rare. At least they were hard to come by when I was looking for another to complete the TelePong demo several years back. I finally got a second one through the designer of the card. > Heuristics 20A-1. TTL + 2 quad op-amps + 2 quad comparators + 2708. 3.5mm > jcak socket. I think this might be a speech input card... Most likely. Heuristics made speech recognition stuff in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I have a Heuristics speech recognition board (large, mounted in a hard-shell portable carrying case) with a serial port so it can be interfaced to any computer with an RS232 port. Circa early 1980s. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 01:54:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: <42FBFD0F.B336AD95@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > The card I have has a 12 or so pin ribbon cable actually fixed to > the board by a header, and it dangles thru the apple2 slot and is > clamped in place there by a metal bracket that pinches the cable > and the case to make a firm installation. That's the Serial Interace. But what do you mean by a "header"? The cards I have and the photo in the manual show the cable soldered directly to the board and looped through two adjacent slots cut into the PCB. The Communications Interface has only a 6-line ribbon cable. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 12 05:33:41 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:33:41 +0100 Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050812001652.0477db00@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050812111100.04dd68b0@pop.freeserve.net> At 00:56 12/08/2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yep, for BBC. (At least, I have an image of a "Workstation" ROM, (C)1983 > > University of Sussex Computing Centre, so I presume it's the same thing!) > >ALmost certainly is. > > > > > It's a terminal emulator - VT52, 4010 or "dumb". The "setup" option only > > allows changing of baud rate, up to 9600, so it seems not to be a > >What, no parity, etc, settings. Ouch! Indeed.. Very basic! A lot of my past involvement with Beebs was modem/comms based (started with writing a BBS, ended up working for Micronet) so I had rather a large collection of various terminal emulators and associated utilities... this was not one I ever actually used! One I did use: I'm in the process of sorting out the heap of beeb stuff, and found myself running my old modified version of Kermit-in-ROM to talk (via an iolan terminal server) to one of the BSD boxes here to swap some files the other day... A 20 year old compile of kermit talking serial to a version I set up on the day, running in a telnet session. Not bad! Weirdest ROM I came across, yesterday as it happens: "BBC Terminal control ROM, 0.23, (c) Cambridge control systems" Apart from a basic terminal emulator & unremarkable SRAM loading mechanism, it contains an I/O filing system! Allows you to use standard file channels to access IO ports, memory & 1MHz bus. Nice .. Rob. From tgarcia at hivemind.org Fri Aug 12 05:34:41 2005 From: tgarcia at hivemind.org (Tom Garcia) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:34:41 +0100 Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals Message-ID: <02ee01c59f29$72b04f80$c5b70551@hivemind.org> Hello all, A private collector is giving away most of his computer stash. Stuff marked (*) is possibly already claimed; other stuff probably isn't, so make your free claim. There is a risk of stuff getting trashed, which none of us want happening - see "points" below. = QBUS-based VAX (nice) = 4 x MicroVAX 3400 - ok, what we have are 4 x BA213 cabinets, filled with many cards including processor+memory (KA640), and a huge pile more of QBUS cards, which will be catalogued separately. Millions of DESQA and other Ethernet cards are certainly apparent. I know at least two of these have 110V supplies fitted, but I also think there are 240V supplies lying around somewhere. Some have bulkhead panels in need of cleaning up where the battery has misbehaved. 2 x VAX 4000-500 - similar comment on the bulkheads, otherwise some nice beasts :-). (* at least one of each of the above taken) 2 x R400X - expansion boxes (*) BA215 = QBUS-based VAX (cabinets only in various states of undress) = 2 x BA123 - contains parts of a uVax II, not looking healthy 3 x BA23 2 x BA23 third-party clone = Desktop VAX = 2 x VAXstation 3100/38 2 x VAXstation 3100/76 VXT 2000+ 12 x MicroVAX 3100/30 6 x MicroVAX 3100/20 or 20e (were the things below uVAX or VAXstations??) 1 x MicroVAX 10 (*) 2 x MicroVAX 2000 = Other Digital computers = PDP-11/34 - with front panel, boots to ODT, no hdd/floppy (*) DECmate III (PDP-8) 2 x DECstation 3100 MIPS R2000-based 3 x DEC rainbow + much software: system kit, CP/M-86, Lotus 123, MS-DOS = Digital peripherals = various x storage expansion (BA46A and BA42B?) 6 x RX50 floppy drive 5 x TK50 tape drive + tapes Digital TU58 many x TK70 drives + tapes many x 8-inch floppy drive many x other DSSI hard drives many x RD5x hard drives - "*rare!!*" as eBay would say, and data may need wiping; - certainly available but possibly not immediately many x MMJ cables = Digital terminals (genuine) = VT520 VT320 (*) VT240 VT102 = Digital documentation = RSX-11M 1/2A-B/3A-B/4A-B/5/6/7 (ie nice and complete :-) RT-11 2/4/5 VMS: Using DECwindows (grey) VAX C (grey) some DUNIX 4.0B manuals (*1 taken) 2 x TCPware for VMS boxes = CP/M workstation = Shelton SIG/NET Gemini Galaxy 2 = IBM PC/compatible = 2 x IBM XT genuine with 386 upgrade cards 2 x IBM PS/2-70 (*) DEC Prioris w/ storageworks cabinet many x old 286-era stuff = thin client style PCs = Netvectra N30 (*) NCD ThinSTAR - WinCE 2 x mini ITX silver cases (empty...) = Apple computer and peripherals = Apple Macintosh II Apple Macintosh SE 2 x Apple IIe 2 x Apple IIgs w/ 2 x 5.25" + 2 x 3.5" ? 6 x Disk II floppy drives Appleworks GS Hong Kong Apple II clone w/ built-in FDD - another "*rare!!*" so this might be handled separately? = Commodore = Commodore Amiga B1500 ? Commodore Plus/4 several x Commodore 64 2 x Commodore VIC-20 = Acorn = 3 x BBC B 4 x Acorn electron with PSU Acorn A3000 3 x Microvitec Cub monitors = Other microcomputer = 2 x Amstrad CPC-464 Amstrad CPC-128 Atari ST 520FM Atari 1024ST 2 x Dragon-32 HX-10 - MSX Microtan 65 homebuilt Sinclair QL Tandy Color CoCo 2 = Sun = Sparcstation 1 Sparcstation 2 4 x IPX LX ...and their keyboards and other peripherals and stuff. = Other workstation = IBM RS6000 of some sort = Wyse terminals = Wyse 60 ...more to go here... = PBX systems = Tyonix with 30 handsets London 32 London 16 = Misc = Psion Organiser II printer ChannelPlus Genlock Message Centre (?) 19" rackmount fan tray 64180 in-circuit emulator Westcode systems serial port switches Intel MDS 220 lots of miscellaneous stuff for all the above - cables, ADB/Sun keyboards, etc... oodles of terminators, T-pieces Points: (1) Claim these items ideally within the next couple of weeks, although should be able to hold on to certain things for a few weeks more -- especially if you can tag something and give an approximate time to fetch it/have it delivered. (2) Unless otherwise indicated, items can be collected free from near Horsham, West Sussex, England, or will be posted absolutely anywhere, as long as you pay handling/shipping costs (Paypal etc is possible if you're abroad). If you turn up in person, you can probably take a lot more than you originally planned, if you feel like it. (3) Condition: Nothing listed is known to be broken, but everything should be considered untested. Some obvious points: Storage will be absent from the VAXen, and external PSUs missing from some of the microcomputers. Feel free to ask questions, but no guarantees! (4) Items marked (*) are probably already taken, but feel free to express your interest anyway, in case minds change. Other things may also be claimed by the time you read this. (5) Super-top-prize (of gratitude :-) to anyone who wants to provide space to store this stuff for longer (or just play with it, most importantly to SAVE it all from destruction). Feel free to e-mail me on the address below. Feel free to send this anywhere sensible. Cheers, -- Tom | tgarcia AT hivemind DOT org From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Aug 12 08:23:29 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:23:29 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: <42FCA2D1.5020101@jcwren.com> I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, these are used on most of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I don't know how a good a deal this is, or the availablity though other channels, but thought I'd pass them on. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 12 08:49:37 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:49:37 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <42FCA2D1.5020101@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that J.C. Wren may have mentioned these words: > I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, these are used on most > of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I don't know how a good a > deal this is, or the availablity though other channels, but thought I'd > pass them on. > > If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em fer sale at $4.49 each. At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for comparison. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 12 09:33:45 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:33:45 -0500 Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals In-Reply-To: <02ee01c59f29$72b04f80$c5b70551@hivemind.org> References: <02ee01c59f29$72b04f80$c5b70551@hivemind.org> Message-ID: <200508120933.45268.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 12 August 2005 05:34, Tom Garcia wrote: > Hello all, > > A private collector is giving away most of his computer stash. Stuff > marked (*) is possibly already claimed; other stuff probably isn't, > so make your free claim. There is a risk of stuff getting trashed, > which none of us want happening - see "points" below. ... > (2) Unless otherwise indicated, items can be collected free from near > Horsham, West Sussex, England, Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Aug 12 09:57:30 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:57:30 +0100 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42FCB8DA.8000104@gjcp.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that J.C. Wren may have mentioned these words: > >> I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, these are used on >> most of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I don't know how a >> good a deal this is, or the availablity though other channels, but >> thought I'd pass them on. >> >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-WESTERN-DIGITAL-ICS_W0QQitemZ7537549267 > > > > If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em fer sale at $4.49 > each. Why not have 38 of them? That would be some striped array... Gordon. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 10:10:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 Message-ID: I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage 8-bitters as instruments. You can hear one of his songs here: http://www.myspace.com/quarknova Note: requires a modern browser with fancy plug-ins to play. I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. What do you folks think? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 12 10:27:02 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:27:02 -0700 Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals In-Reply-To: <200508120933.45268.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <02ee01c59f29$72b04f80$c5b70551@hivemind.org> <200508120933.45268.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 9:33 AM -0500 8/12/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Friday 12 August 2005 05:34, Tom Garcia wrote: > > (2) Unless otherwise indicated, items can be collected free from near >> Horsham, West Sussex, England, > >Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) Strange, that's what I was thinking! Besides the nice DEC stuff, there are systems in there that you basically *never* see over here. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Aug 12 10:48:44 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:48:44 -0400 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FCC4DC.4090702@atarimuseum.com> Sellam, You should speak with Paul Slocum, he is big into 8bit systems creating music. www.qotile.net Look under Treewave Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage >8-bitters as instruments. > >You can hear one of his songs here: > >http://www.myspace.com/quarknova > >Note: requires a modern browser with fancy plug-ins to play. > >I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > >What do you folks think? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 8/12/2005 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 12 10:53:01 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:53:01 -0700 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508120853.01839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 12 August 2005 08:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage > 8-bitters as instruments. > > You can hear one of his songs here: > > http://www.myspace.com/quarknova > > Note: requires a modern browser with fancy plug-ins to play. > > I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > > What do you folks think? I think a band is way secondary to broader advertising of VCF. One of the complaints I regularly heard from both vendors and exhibitors the last VCF was the lack of general public attendance. I'd rather see $$ spent go to advertising VCF in the San Jose Mercury News, Palo Alto Times, Mountain View Voice, etc. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lcourtney at mvista.com Fri Aug 12 11:15:27 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:15:27 -0700 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam, I think this would/could be a really interesting presentation at VCF. Don't know if I'm so much interested in a "concert". But hearing about evolution of synthesizer technology over the years, cross-pollination between electronic music and advances in computing technology would be a great topic. Cheers, Lee Courtney MontaVista Software 1237 East Arques Avenue Sunnyvale, California 94085 (408) 328-9238 voice (408) 328-9204 fax Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 8:11 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 > > > > I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage > 8-bitters as instruments. > > You can hear one of his songs here: > > http://www.myspace.com/quarknova > > Note: requires a modern browser with fancy plug-ins to play. > > I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > > What do you folks think? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From vrs at msn.com Fri Aug 12 11:18:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:18:55 -0700 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em fer sale at $4.49 each. > > At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for comparison. Er, I get $4.16 each (including the $20 shipping charge). That's getting close to the bgmicro cost (though I don't know what they would want for shipping). Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 12 12:10:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: <200508121710.KAA17916@clulw009.amd.com> Hi What I need is the improved replacement controller for the Versafloppy II. I forget the number but it was a 15?? to replace the 1771B( I think) . It was suppose to impove something about the format. Dwight > >> If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em fer sale at $4.49 >each. >> >> At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for comparison. > >Er, I get $4.16 each (including the $20 shipping charge). That's >getting close to the bgmicro cost (though I don't know what they >would want for shipping). > > Vince > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 12 12:16:50 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:16:50 -0700 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508121016.50673.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 12 August 2005 09:15, Lee Courtney wrote: > Sellam, > > I think this would/could be a really interesting presentation at VCF. Don't > know if I'm so much interested in a "concert". But hearing about evolution > of synthesizer technology over the years, cross-pollination between > electronic music and advances in computing technology would be a great > topic. Along the lines of Lee's suggestion, Peter Samson, the original author of four part harmony music for the PDP-1, is a member of the CHM's PDP-1 restoration team. You may be able to get him to speak and give a demo of his music on the PDP-1. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 12:10:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals In-Reply-To: <200508120933.45268.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) That's funny, I heard some bloke say the same thing from "over there". Actually, the good deals are in your own backyard. You're just too close to see them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 12:11:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <42FCC4DC.4090702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > You should speak with Paul Slocum, he is big into 8bit systems > creating music. > > www.qotile.net > > Look under Treewave Clark Nova (the guy I posted a link to) uses Paul's synthcart as part of his repertoire. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 12 13:17:35 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:17:35 -0400 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <200508120853.01839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812135620.03a6bee8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Lyle Bickley may have mentioned these words: >On Friday 12 August 2005 08:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage > > 8-bitters as instruments. > > > > You can hear one of his songs here: > > > > http://www.myspace.com/quarknova > > > > Note: requires a modern browser with fancy plug-ins to play. > > > > I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > > > > What do you folks think? > >I think a band is way secondary to broader advertising of VCF. I disagree... here's why: >One of the complaints I regularly heard from both vendors and exhibitors the >last VCF was the lack of general public attendance. > I'd rather see $$ spent >go to advertising VCF in the San Jose Mercury News, Palo Alto Times, >Mountain View Voice, etc. Boatloads of advertising won't get the general public through the door if there's nothing at the venue they're interested in. [As proven] Not many people can learn to appreciate a PDP-8 or Newton PDA, but almost everyone can appreciate music of some form or another. If the vendors are looking for a broader general public attendance, there's going to have to be more (or at least more varied) offerings that can appeal to the general public at large. Now, if you could book Kraftwerk... ;-) As always, JMHO... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. How about a Vintage Arcade game section - or at least a Vintage Computer Game section? Any VCF that I'd be able to attend I would be glad to donate a computer or two with classic games for folks to play... Just a [prolly bad] thought... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Aug 12 13:30:43 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:30:43 +0200 Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcom puter + peripherals Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1DF8@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Grass is always greener at the other side :-) I gave it a moment some thought, but even at the same side of the pond, UK - The Netherlands, will be killing shipping costs. Why is that stuff so heavy? @!#(^%$ we would be better of collecting stamps :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 12-8-2005 19:10 Subject: Re: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) That's funny, I heard some bloke say the same thing from "over there". Actually, the good deals are in your own backyard. You're just too close to see them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 12 13:33:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:33:30 -0500 Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508121333.30454.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 12 August 2005 12:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) > > That's funny, I heard some bloke say the same thing from "over > there". > > Actually, the good deals are in your own backyard. You're just too > close to see them. No, I was just using this as an excuse to say what people "over there" say, in an attempt at humor (which I find myself now explaining). You may note the smiley on my message, trying to indicate that I was joking... Sigh. And yes, I know most of the best deals are in my back yard. I've gotten plenty of intersting things within a couple hundred miles drive of home, and most within 5 miles of home... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Aug 12 14:04:41 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:04:41 -0700 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812135620.03a6bee8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812135620.03a6bee8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200508121204.41839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 12 August 2005 11:17, Roger Merchberger wrote: --snip-- > Boatloads of advertising won't get the general public through the door if > there's nothing at the venue they're interested in. > > [As proven] Not many people can learn to appreciate a PDP-8 or Newton PDA, > but almost everyone can appreciate music of some form or another. > > If the vendors are looking for a broader general public attendance, there's > going to have to be more (or at least more varied) offerings that can > appeal to the general public at large. The CHM, where VCF is held, is located in the heart of Silicon Valley - and there are plenty of geeks here who might well attend if they knew it was taking place. I've met a number of techies here in the Valley who know about the Computer History Museum - but have never heard of the VCF. Of course I tell them about it - but a few one-on-one encounters will not a crowd make. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 12 14:24:45 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:24:45 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812135620.03a6bee8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812135620.03a6bee8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812142229.04e6ce88@mail> At 01:17 PM 8/12/2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Boatloads of advertising won't get the general public through the door if there's nothing at the venue they're interested in. Precisely. You'd need a gimmick with sufficiently broad appeal that the insiders would be offended by its simplicity and lack of sophisticated taste. >P.S. How about a Vintage Arcade game section - or at least a Vintage Computer Game section? Any VCF that I'd be able to attend I would be glad to donate a computer or two with classic games for folks to play... Just a [prolly bad] thought... VCF did team up with the California Extreme show in 2000, no? - John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Aug 12 14:46:01 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 Message-ID: <200508121946.MAA17961@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Foust" > >At 01:17 PM 8/12/2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Boatloads of advertising won't get the general public through the door if there's nothing at the venue they're interested in. > >Precisely. You'd need a gimmick with sufficiently broad appeal >that the insiders would be offended by its simplicity and >lack of sophisticated taste. > >>P.S. How about a Vintage Arcade game section - or at least a Vintage Computer Game section? Any VCF that I'd be able to attend I would be glad to donate a computer or two with classic games for folks to play... Just a [prolly bad] thought... > >VCF did team up with the California Extreme show in 2000, no? > >- John > Hi Maybe we need a contest giving away an Apple 1 ;) Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 15:24:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Giveaway: many Digital esp VAX + other workstation / microcomputer + peripherals In-Reply-To: <200508121333.30454.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 12 August 2005 12:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Why are all the good deals on the other side of the pond? ;) > > > > That's funny, I heard some bloke say the same thing from "over > > there". > > > > Actually, the good deals are in your own backyard. You're just too > > close to see them. > > No, I was just using this as an excuse to say what people "over there" > say, in an attempt at humor (which I find myself now explaining). You > may note the smiley on my message, trying to indicate that I was > joking... Sigh. I know, but I took it as an opportunity to reiterate that the best deals are located in your own back yard, if one would just take the time to look ;) > And yes, I know most of the best deals are in my back yard. I've gotten > plenty of intersting things within a couple hundred miles drive of > home, and most within 5 miles of home... I'll say. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 15:29:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050812142229.04e6ce88@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, John Foust wrote: > P.S. How about a Vintage Arcade game section - or at least a Vintage > Computer Game section? Any VCF that I'd be able to attend I would be > glad to donate a computer or two with classic games for folks to play... > Just a [prolly bad] thought... I've been trying to find an angle to incorporate more video games into the mix because that's what draws crowds. I don't want the VCF to become yet another clasic video game event, but it will at least cater to a slightly broader interest group. > VCF did team up with the California Extreme show in 2000, no? Yes, it didn't work out that well. With the proper planning and execution it could do very well, but we're both big events (CAEX is far bigger of course in terms of attendanec) and trying to meld the two together is challenging, so in the end we concluded that it's better to just have separate events and do cross advertising. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 15:29:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <200508121946.MAA17961@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Maybe we need a contest giving away an Apple 1 ;) If someone's willing to donate one then sure! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 12 16:27:38 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:27:38 -0400 Subject: unibus backplane list? Message-ID: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. So, I looked at my 'space' 44 and found it had an RK611. That's nice, but not helpful as I have no rk05's (yet :-) It also has a DD11-B, which looks like it might work, since I only need 2 slots for the short term. I was curious if there was a list somewhere of what stock unibs backplane panels. (like what's the difference between an DD11-DF and a DD11-DK?) -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 16:51:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:51:48 -0600 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/05, Brad Parker wrote: > Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? I do not know of a master list online. > My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and > out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than > damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. It takes a bit of force to get hex cards in a nearly-unused backplane. I've bent latches trying to get boards in. The trick is to make sure they are aligned with the slot guides, to wiggle the boards a bit right when they touch down, and apply pressure evenly, including using the entire edge stiffener, not just the levers to apply pressure. A new backplane isn't necessarily going to be any easier to load up. Do ensure that it's aligned, though - loosen the screws at the bottom (4? 6?) that hold it to its rails, and it might migrate a fraction of a millimeter, if it's currently binding. It's a _lot_ harder to mount hex cards in a DEC backplane than any PC card - lots more points of contact, lots more force. > So, I looked at my 'space' 44 and found it had an RK611. That's nice, > but not helpful as I have no rk05's (yet :-) And it wouldn't help you if you did... the RK611 backplane is for RK06 and RK07 drives. The RK11D backplane is what you'd want to have to use RK05s. > It also has a DD11-B, which looks like it might work, since I only need > 2 slots for the short term. Perfect. A very useful backplane for small configurations. Don't forget the two SPC (Small Peripheral Controller) slots for quad Unibus cards (the TU80 interface is one of the more ordinary ones in machines I've seen). > (like what's the difference between an DD11-DF and a DD11-DK?) In that particular case, the DD11-DF is meant to contain a CPU, not just Unibus cards, (as do most Unibus CPU backplanes). The DD11-DK is a larger version of your 4-slot Unibus backplane - Unibus slots, only; no non-Unibus memory or MUD slots or anything that one might find in a CPU backplane. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 12 17:00:17 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:00:17 -0700 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1123884017.7059.10.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 15:51 -0600, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > (like what's the difference between an DD11-DF and a DD11-DK?) > > In that particular case, the DD11-DF is meant to contain a CPU, not > just Unibus cards, (as do most Unibus CPU backplanes). The DD11-DK is > a larger version of your 4-slot Unibus backplane - Unibus slots, only; > no non-Unibus memory or MUD slots or anything that one might find in a > CPU backplane. NO! The DD11-DF is meant to go in BA11-F chassis (21" tall ones) and the DD11-DK is meant to go in BA11-K chassis (10.5" tall ones). The difference is the length of the power harness. The DF is long and the DK is short. There are also DD11-CF and DD11-CK backplanes which are 4 slot versions of the above. -- TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 17:06:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:06:57 -0600 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <1123884017.7059.10.camel@linux.site> References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1123884017.7059.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 8/12/05, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > NO! The DD11-DF is meant to go in BA11-F chassis (21" tall ones) and > the DD11-DK is meant to go in BA11-K chassis (10.5" tall ones). The > difference is the length of the power harness. The DF is long and the > DK is short. Ah... sorry... my mistake. I'm not accustomed to the systems with bays larger than the BA11-K. I thought I was speaking from memory, but I was mistaken. That'll learn me. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 12 17:16:53 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:16:53 -0700 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> <1123884017.7059.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1123885013.7059.18.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 16:06 -0600, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/12/05, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > NO! The DD11-DF is meant to go in BA11-F chassis (21" tall ones) and > > the DD11-DK is meant to go in BA11-K chassis (10.5" tall ones). The > > difference is the length of the power harness. The DF is long and the > > DK is short. > > Ah... sorry... my mistake. I'm not accustomed to the systems with > bays larger than the BA11-K. I thought I was speaking from memory, > but I was mistaken. That'll learn me. If only our memories had parity! ECC would be better, but just knowing it was wrong would be great!! :-) -- TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 12 18:36:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050812163520.D88957@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > What do you folks think? Just one caveat: DO NOT LET IT BE SO LOUD THAT IT INTERFERES AT ALL WITH TALKING. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 19:01:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:22 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: <200508121946.MAA17961@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050812190122.427db4e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > Maybe we need a contest giving away an Apple 1 ;) > > If someone's willing to donate one then sure! > I'll donate the wooden case. Do you think if we put a 'vintage' keyboard in it (i.e. one without the 'windows' keys around the spacebar) it will fool them?? (there's probably a 'trick' involving a PIC controller or something to convert a PS/2-type keyboard into a parallel strobing keyboard which would make it work with an Apple 1. However, both the PIC and the keyboard controller on the keyboard itself would be more powerful than the 6502 in the Apple 1) From computer at officereach.net Fri Aug 12 19:14:37 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:14:37 -0700 Subject: Commodore 1902-A Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <1123734807.18018.240441799@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Someone wrote on the list that they were looking for a Commodore Computer Monitor. When I was at the surplus store the other day, I found a nice Commodore Computer Monitor, but will need to probably have the power switch cleaned (it's a bit flakey). *IF* the person on here, who wrote the original post, would like it, please contact me; I saw it and was thinking of you. Shipping would be about $25.00 on this item, and I would ship via DHL and that's all I am asking for is the cost of shipping. * Model 1902-A * Working. Thanks! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 19:10:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:10:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 11, 5 11:50:52 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Wildport Ltd 6522 VIA card. Contains a 6522 (Duh..) and a '04 only. Has a > > lenght of 26 way ribbon cable connected by a permanent transition > > connector, other end unterminated. Probably a user I/O card. > > Standard 6522 interface. The 04 is to invert one of the Apple's clock > signals to be compatible with the 6522. Right. I've not traced out the schematic (to get the wiring of the 26 pin cable), and don't intend doing so anytime soon, but it's hardly going to overtax me if I need to use it... > > Apple/PC link interface. 2716 EPROM + TTL + buffers + M58725 (?). One 20 > > pin header near back of card. No idea! > > I think this is a card by Applied Engineering? Maybe not. But I think it > allows connection to a PC-compatible disk drive(?) Possibly. It doesn't look like a disk controller, there's no 34 pin connector for example. And I don't think the 20 pin connector is for an Apple drive either. > > > 2 off Communication Board. These aapear to the board Sellam was > > mentioning. 6850 + TTL + P2 PROM + 8304. > > Somewhat rare. At least they were hard to come by when I was looking for You mean the speech boards are more common? I am suprised :-) > another to complete the TelePong demo several years back. I finally got > a second one through the designer of the card. > > > Heuristics 20A-1. TTL + 2 quad op-amps + 2 quad comparators + 2708. 3.5mm > > jcak socket. I think this might be a speech input card... > > Most likely. Heuristics made speech recognition stuff in the late 1970s > and early 1980s. I have a Heuristics speech recognition board (large, > mounted in a hard-shell portable carrying case) with a serial port so it > can be interfaced to any computer with an RS232 port. Circa early 1980s. Yes, I think I have one of their S100 boards somewhere, but it would take some finding.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 19:12:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:12:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 11, 5 11:54:28 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > > > The card I have has a 12 or so pin ribbon cable actually fixed to > > the board by a header, and it dangles thru the apple2 slot and is > > clamped in place there by a metal bracket that pinches the cable > > and the case to make a firm installation. > > That's the Serial Interace. But what do you mean by a "header"? The > cards I have and the photo in the manual show the cable soldered directly > to the board and looped through two adjacent slots cut into the PCB. The > Communications Interface has only a 6-line ribbon cable. Having seen both boards recently, I will confirm that all of mine are built as Sellam describes. There's a ribbon cable soldered direclty to the PCB, looped through a couple of slots as a strain relief, then a crimp-pin DB25 on the other end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 19:19:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:19:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 12, 5 05:27:38 pm Message-ID: > So, I looked at my 'space' 44 and found it had an RK611. That's nice, > but not helpful as I have no rk05's (yet :-) If it is an RK611 (a 9 slot backplane with 5 hex cards in it IIRC), then it's for RK06/RK07 drives. The interface is _very_ different to that for the RK05. IIRC (again), the 3 spare slots are one end of the RK611 are wired as SPC slots and you can stick normal SPC cards in there (converesly if they're empty, you need to put grant continuity cards in them). Personally, I'd want ot konw why you can't get cards into the exising backplane. It may be soemting simple like it's not aligned with the cabinet properyl (so the board edge conenctor tabs don't quite line up with the backpalne connectors. Try loosening the mouting screws for the backplane and sticking a hex card (anything, you're not going to power it up) in each end slot, then retighten the screws. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 19:07:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:07:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: <42FBFD0F.B336AD95@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Aug 11, 5 06:36:15 pm Message-ID: > > Apple's official RS232 interface for the ][ used only level shifters from There are at least 3 'official' RS232 interfaces for the Apple ][ -- the bit-banger card, the comms card (6850 based) and the super serial card (6551 based). > TTL to +- 12. The 6502 would fiddle the levels and watch the control > lines in software. > That sounds like the bit-banger card. I have a couple, I have the manual somewhere. I've also heard that one early Apple manual (which I don't have) contains code to bit-bang 110 baud serial data through one of the outputs on the games connector, and that that was the original way to get printouts from an Apple (convert to current loop, add an ASR33). > If you have a controller with a UART on it, then it will need a driver > chip and may not be useful with some apple aps. Most of the serial cards, including the bit-banger and the other 2 Apple ones have firmware PROMs on them, which cotnain the drivers with the standed PR#n, IN#n interface. > > The card I have has a 12 or so pin ribbon cable actually fixed to > the board by a header, and it dangles thru the apple2 slot and is > clamped in place there by a metal bracket that pinches the cable > and the case to make a firm installation. Both the bit-banger and the 6850 card have that sort of construction. > > As I said, it has no chips larger than the 14 or 16 pin packages IIRC. I thought the firmware ROMs (there are 2 on the bitbanger, P7 and P8) were 20 pin chips. > > I ran some sort of terminal emulator on it at one time, and I remember > it had trouble over 1200 baud or so. You were lucky. I had problems with it at 300 baud... -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 12 20:29:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:29:01 -0500 Subject: M9312 prom archive? References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000e01c59fa6$62c7b590$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > There was a long discussion about creating an archive of 'em, but > it doesn't appear that anything ever happened. Jay offered to create > www.classiccmp.org/M9312, but that doesn't appear to exist. Pete > Turnbull has a list of part numbers, but no images. Ok, I did offer to create a spot for them. However, no one contributed any images to put there. Sooooo I took Al's query as a prompt for me to take the bull by the horns and get out my prom burner this afternoon. See www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 There I put up all the M9312 proms that I have anyways... along with checksums and descriptions. In addition to the normal boot loader proms, I also copied and put up the diag rom for the 11/60 & 11/70, as well as the console/diag rom for the 11/04/05/34/35/40/45/50/55. Enjoy. If anyone wants to contribute more proms, just let me know. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 20:23:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <20050812163520.D88957@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm thinking of booking a band like this to play at VCF 8.0. > > What do you folks think? > > Just one caveat: > DO NOT LET IT BE SO LOUD THAT IT INTERFERES AT ALL WITH TALKING. I imagine it being either in a different room or at night after hours. I've been to events where the music is too loud (CGE for instance) and it is annoying. (Yes, I realize I used to play the music "too loud" for all the old farts in the building too :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 20:25:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <20050812190122.427db4e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > > > Maybe we need a contest giving away an Apple 1 ;) > > > > If someone's willing to donate one then sure! > > > > I'll donate the wooden case. Do you think if we put a 'vintage' > keyboard in it (i.e. one without the 'windows' keys around the spacebar) > it will fool them?? > > (there's probably a 'trick' involving a PIC controller or something to > convert a PS/2-type keyboard into a parallel strobing keyboard which > would make it work with an Apple 1. However, both the PIC and the > keyboard controller on the keyboard itself would be more powerful than > the 6502 in the Apple 1) Or just buy a Replica-1 Apple-1 replica. Vince Briel has been wonderful in providing Replica-1's as give aways at the past few VCF's. Please support him today by buying one! http://www.brielcomputers.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 20:27:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 2 off Communication Board. These aapear to the board Sellam was > > > mentioning. 6850 + TTL + P2 PROM + 8304. > > > > Somewhat rare. At least they were hard to come by when I was looking for > > You mean the speech boards are more common? I am suprised :-) No, but I don't imagine a whole lot of these boards were sold, or if they were they just aren't out there. I've gone through a lot of scrapped Apple ]['s and have found many stashes of Apple ][ boards and have never once come across one. The one I had was, I think, one that I got when I bought my first Apple ][+ back in 1984. > > Most likely. Heuristics made speech recognition stuff in the late 1970s > > and early 1980s. I have a Heuristics speech recognition board (large, > > mounted in a hard-shell portable carrying case) with a serial port so it > > can be interfaced to any computer with an RS232 port. Circa early 1980s. > > Yes, I think I have one of their S100 boards somewhere, but it would take > some finding.... Me too. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 21:10:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20050812190122.427db4e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050812211004.5e1afa8f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe we need a contest giving away an Apple 1 ;) > > > > > > If someone's willing to donate one then sure! > > > > > > > I'll donate the wooden case. Do you think if we put a 'vintage' > > keyboard in it (i.e. one without the 'windows' keys around the > > spacebar) it will fool them?? > > > > (there's probably a 'trick' involving a PIC controller or something > > to convert a PS/2-type keyboard into a parallel strobing keyboard > > which would make it work with an Apple 1. However, both the PIC and > > the keyboard controller on the keyboard itself would be more > > powerful than the 6502 in the Apple 1) > > Or just buy a Replica-1 Apple-1 replica. Vince Briel has been > wonderful in providing Replica-1's as give aways at the past few > VCF's. Please support him today by buying one! > > http://www.brielcomputers.com/ > The Replica One looks like a cool project. But I'm a little disturbed that he calls it a 'replica' considering: (quotes from web page) A new circuit layout was done on the replica 1 to implement a more simple circuit and replace older no longer available ICs. Simply add your own PC 386-Pentium class power supply, a composite TV or monitor and a PS/2 keyboard or Apple II style ASCII keyboard and you are set to go. (end of quotes) The Apple 1 didn't use an 'external power supply.' You hooked up your own power transformer to it, it had the onboard power supply etched in the board. It didn't work with a PS/2 keyboard (obviously), you attached any available parallel strobing ASCII keyboard. There WAS no 'apple' keyboard- Apple Computer's sole 'proprietary' component in the Apple 1 was the circuit board stuffed with COTS chips. And it doesn't use the original chips? My hope was that it was a true 'replica' and you could order it for Big Bucks with vintage silicon, or order a bare etched and drilled circuit board and have the fun of seeking out (or digging through your junkbox of spare chips) for the chips. My memory from the above details about about Apple 1 power supplies, keyboard, etc. comes from what I remember of the review article of the Apple 1 that was in issue 2 of Kilobaud. (the same issue with the full-page display ad for the Apple 1 with $666 price and all). I never owned one. (was lucky to be able to afford a programmable calculator in that era) Damn, I wish I hadn't sold off that complete set of Kilobaud a number of years back.... From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 21:03:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds like the bit-banger card. I have a couple, I have the manual > somewhere. I've also heard that one early Apple manual (which I don't > have) contains code to bit-bang 110 baud serial data through one of the > outputs on the games connector, and that that was the original way to get > printouts from an Apple (convert to current loop, add an ASR33). This is in the first Apple II Reference Manual (a.k.a. the "Red Book", January 1978), which was the manual you got with your Apple ][ prior to the more "official" small format spiral bound Apple ][ Reference Manual. It's on page 114, "A Simple Serial Ouput", and includes an assembly listing and schematics for a simple circuit that plugs into the game port. It's a hard to find manual and sells for a lot when it is found. > > As I said, it has no chips larger than the 14 or 16 pin packages IIRC. > > I thought the firmware ROMs (there are 2 on the bitbanger, P7 and P8) > were 20 pin chips. That's what they look like to me (looking at the photo in the manual). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 21:10:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <20050812211004.5e1afa8f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > The Replica One looks like a cool project. But I'm a little disturbed > that he calls it a 'replica' considering: Semantics. Just stop bitching, buy one and have fun. > And it doesn't use the original chips? My hope was that it was a true > 'replica' and you could order it for Big Bucks with vintage silicon, or > order a bare etched and drilled circuit board and have the fun of > seeking out (or digging through your junkbox of spare chips) for the > chips. Ok, you get your hands on an actual Apple-1, then trace out the board, etch a copy, and then good luck finding all the rare chips (the shift registers for instance). Many have considered it, few have looked into it, and so far none have succeeded. I know one guy who has collected all the chips and has done the tracing and is ready to build a new board and assemble it. The time and effort and money that will going into this will be considerably higher than the $159 that the ASSEMBLED and TESTED Replica-1 sells for (and that even includes an ASCII keyboard). If you're cheap and adventurous, buy the $119 kit version, or if you're really cheap and adventurous, buy the barebones kit version for $60. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 12 21:39:09 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:39:09 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <20050813023908.OOCM11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> In case anyone is interested, an updated ImageDisk is available: 1.00 = Inital public release 1.01 = Added Sector Cylinder/Head maps for disks with non-standard C/H values. Minor fixes and help update. 1.02 = Fully independant side0/side1 analysis. Fix reanalyze corrupting sector numbering map (major bug) Fix IMDAM to find sectors in "short" images. Major code cleanup, numerous minor bugs fixed and enhancements. 1.03 = Added options to control read/write interleave. Added low-level format function. Fix to recal twice to handle 765's limited to 77 tracks. Fix to timeout on hung FDC Update IMDAM to insert missing/excluded tracks during merge. ImageDisk is available from my site: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Look at the "Disk/Software images" section (link near bottom of main page). -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 22:19:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:19:23 -0500 Subject: cool Apple ][ Clone Webpage Message-ID: <20050812221923.723212be.chenmel@earthlink.net> I was trying to settle an arguement by finding a link to an Apple 2 clone that a friend of mine used to have (an Orange Peel). I googled a few keywords and found this COOL website of Apple ][ clone hardware. http://www.apple2clones.com/ These are the folks who kept the Apple legal department busy before Apple got all 'look-n-feel'y and sued Microsoft and HP. Just thought it was cool and interesting. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 12 22:26:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:26:01 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20050812211004.5e1afa8f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050812222601.46ede834.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > The Replica One looks like a cool project. But I'm a little > > disturbed that he calls it a 'replica' considering: > > Semantics. Just stop bitching, buy one and have fun. > > > And it doesn't use the original chips? My hope was that it was a > > true'replica' and you could order it for Big Bucks with vintage > > silicon, or order a bare etched and drilled circuit board and have > > the fun of seeking out (or digging through your junkbox of spare > > chips) for the chips. > > Ok, you get your hands on an actual Apple-1, then trace out the board, > etch a copy, and then good luck finding all the rare chips (the shift > registers for instance). Many have considered it, few have looked > into it, and so far none have succeeded. I know one guy who has > collected all the chips and has done the tracing and is ready to build > a new board and assemble it. The time and effort and money that will > going into this will be considerably higher than the $159 that the > ASSEMBLED and TESTED Replica-1 sells for (and that even includes an > ASCII keyboard). If you're cheap and adventurous, buy the $119 kit > version, or if you're really cheap and adventurous, buy the barebones > kit version for $60. > Naw. It probably uses a 74LS244 chip in it somewhere, and I'd burn myself out adapting it to use a 74LS245 instead (because I've got a bunch of the latter and none of the former in the tubes of ICs that I can find at the moment in the mess here) Seems like a cool project, though. How soon before people start hawking them on eBay as if they're real Apple 1's?? (three years? ten years??) From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 23:20:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cool Apple ][ Clone Webpage In-Reply-To: <20050812221923.723212be.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > I was trying to settle an arguement by finding a link to an Apple 2 > clone that a friend of mine used to have (an Orange Peel). I googled a > few keywords and found this COOL website of Apple ][ clone hardware. > > http://www.apple2clones.com/ Yep, great site. I don't know if Ernest is still subscribed to here but I'm glad to see he's continuing to update the site. He has quite possibly the most comprehensive collection of Apple ][ clones in the world. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 12 23:23:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <20050812222601.46ede834.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Seems like a cool project, though. How soon before people start hawking > them on eBay as if they're real Apple 1's?? (three years? ten years??) Around the very late 1990s I predicted that we'd start seeing Apple-1 forgeries on eBay within a year. I'm glad I was wrong. The Apple-1 is just too hard to clone properly. Finding the right chips with the right date codes is the easy part. Getting the solder mask perfect on the correctly colored PCB will be a challenge. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 12 23:40:35 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:40:35 -0400 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 References: Message-ID: <001a01c59fc1$2eb75b00$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:23 AM Subject: Re: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Seems like a cool project, though. How soon before people start hawking > > them on eBay as if they're real Apple 1's?? (three years? ten years??) > > Around the very late 1990s I predicted that we'd start seeing Apple-1 > forgeries on eBay within a year. I'm glad I was wrong. > > The Apple-1 is just too hard to clone properly. Finding the right chips > with the right date codes is the easy part. Getting the solder mask > perfect on the correctly colored PCB will be a challenge. > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new boards? Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a company that grew so fast like Apple did. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 12 23:40:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:40:55 -0500 Subject: M9312 new additions to the archive References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> <000e01c59fa6$62c7b590$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Re: www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/M9312 I just got some additional M9312 boot rom images from Bob Shannon via Al Kossow, so these have just been added to the images that I already put there: 756A9 RK,DT RK03/05,TU55/56 757A9 MM TU16/E16 TM02/3 758A9 MT TU10/TS03 759A9 DS RS03/04 761A9 CT TU60 Bob's didn't include checksums, I'll get those tomorrow but at least the images are up. I also cleaned up the descriptions for all the files there to be more helpful. Looks like the only images we're missing (as of the M9312 manual I have anyways) is 764A9 MS (TS04) and 765A9 DD (TU58). Anyone care to donate the last two images, or... send me a prom and I'll pull the image to put online? Jay West From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 13 00:18:22 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:18:22 -0700 Subject: M9312 new additions to the archive In-Reply-To: <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> <000e01c59fa6$62c7b590$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200508122218.22609.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 12 August 2005 21:40, Jay West wrote: > Looks like the only images we're missing (as of the M9312 manual I have > anyways) is 764A9 MS (TS04) and 765A9 DD (TU58). Anyone care to donate the > last two images, or... send me a prom and I'll pull the image to put > online? We're also missing the: TMSCP tape including TK50, TU81 (MU) 23-e39a9 Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 01:12:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 00:12:29 -0600 Subject: Apple ][ boards (mostly In-Reply-To: References: <42FBFD0F.B336AD95@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 8/12/05, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds like the bit-banger card. I have a couple, I have the manual > somewhere. I've also heard that one early Apple manual (which I don't > have) contains code to bit-bang 110 baud serial data through one of the > outputs on the games connector, and that that was the original way to get > printouts from an Apple (convert to current loop, add an ASR33). I've done that (bit-banger serial over the game port) with non-Apple software at 1200 baud direct to a C-64 user-port bit-banger serial port... was about 1984 or 1985... me and a mate wrote some custom stuff to gulp and blow disk sectors from the Apple II version of Sorcerer to a C-64 disk that had formerly contained Enchanter. We used Enchanter to map the different sector mappings, then siphoned off the game file from one machine to the other, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Infocom's multi-platform efforts were fully successful. The game-port-to-user-port hack wasn't bad, either. No level shifters, just TTL serial over a 30 cm twisted triple-wire (RxD, TxD, GND). > I thought the firmware ROMs (there are 2 on the bitbanger, P7 and P8) > were 20 pin chips. They should be 6309s, but I could be mistaken. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 13 01:11:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <001a01c59fc1$2eb75b00$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new boards? > Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a company that grew > so fast like Apple did. Woz has been asked this a million times...he doesn't know what happened to them. The same goes for a lot of stuff from the early days. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 13 06:25:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:25:08 -0400 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42FDD894.nailGCR11LFSF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? 1. The edited option/modules list, under DD11 you will see a lot of variants. And it generally names "where used" too. [Hard getting cards in] The backplanes are generally attached to the backplane with captive From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 13 06:26:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:26:35 -0400 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42FDD8EB.nailGCR21M2HW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Oops, to continue my last thought: The backplanes are attached to the chassis with captive screws. If you loosen them up you will find some wiggle-room to realign the slots with the guides. If the chassis has ever been physically abused (OK, if you dropped it you probably put some abuse on the thing underneath too!) it may simply be bent out of square. Tim. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Aug 13 07:09:31 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:09:31 -0400 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FDE2FB.3080901@comcast.net> Hi, I collect some of the old machines too ever since my late brother bought our first kit in the 70's, Altair 680, which I still kept. But I haven't made it to any ot the VCF shows yet. I'm planning to make the VCF MidWest show some time. I think it's real challenge to get more of the general public to attend. but I think if you get a higher attendance from enthusiasts alone it would be a success. The entertainment and Door Prize is really a good idea. The one guy who said don't make it loud, I think is important, nothing like talking over the music. The one idea that mentioned about vintage computer games is also a good thing to do, especially the original ASCII games. One thing that would be nice to see at the VCF, but probably difficult to find, are some of the memoriablia reproduced from back then(70's). I don't now if you already had planned to have vendors at VCF, with items such as T-shirts, posters with ASCII art, or from George Beker. \Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >>Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new boards? >>Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a company that grew >>so fast like Apple did. >> >> > >Woz has been asked this a million times...he doesn't know what happened to >them. The same goes for a lot of stuff from the early days. > > > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Aug 13 08:41:07 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:41:07 -0500 Subject: TurboTechnix magazine available Message-ID: <000001c5a00c$a93b3a90$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I have volume one of TurboTechnix magazine, published by Borland in 1987/88. Six bimonthly issues; issue one introduces Turbo Pascal 4.0. Available for $5 + shipping. Please contact me directly if you are interested. Jack From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Aug 13 09:39:42 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:39:42 +0200 Subject: Calling Fred van Kempen! In-Reply-To: <20050811000204.D66D8183BF6@bitsavers.org> References: <20050811000204.D66D8183BF6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1123943982.7684.2.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 17:02 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Several other people have been trying to contact Fred > and not having any luck. He's usually on IRC, though (in #classiccmp on Freenode) I'll tell him about it when he comes back. -toresbe From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 13 12:59:26 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:59:26 -0500 Subject: HP21MX booster board? Message-ID: <001701c5a030$c0719230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I am doing a little basement cleaning and pitching some things. Was tossing an HP frequency analyzer that was in bad shape and decided to pop the cover and grab the cpu board (the cpu board is a 21MX M-series). Also got 64k memory & controller :) My question is two fold -first, what's necessary to use this M series board as a regular processor. I see the base instruction set on the bottom plus two additional non-standard microcode cards. I can just remove those, but didn't know if any changes to the M series board were required. Second, there is a board I've never seen before mounted under the mainboard on the opposite end of the microcode. The board is labled "booster board" and is about 1/2 the size of the main cpu board. I would normally think this was just a specific board to the frequency analyzer, but, I think I've heard Bob Shannon talk about this booster board before in more general terms. Should I keep the booster board? Jay West From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 13 13:22:05 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:22:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Super Jolt on ePay Message-ID: <20050813182206.46279.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5230100293 I've not seen one of these listed before. The auction says .. "Seems to be in Very Good Condition, No Obvious Damage! Has one EPROM installed" What it doesn't say is that it's had the two 2114 RAM chips removed so it isn't going to work as is. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Aug 13 13:26:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:26:04 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: <001a01c59fc1$2eb75b00$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050813132604.2868f7a4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new > > boards? Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a > > company that grew so fast like Apple did. > > Woz has been asked this a million times...he doesn't know what > happened to them. The same goes for a lot of stuff from the early > days. > It can't be more than a two layer board, can it? It seems like a few close photographs of even a populated Apple 1 board would make it easy to 'recreate' the artwork. It's likely that in the era of the Apple 1 they weren't that set on archiving stuff for historical purposes. You used to be able to pick up TONS of great old hardware (S-100 boards and systems, and lots of good stuff) at Swapmeets when everybody had retired it and all anybody wanted was a fast '286 motherboard. > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Aug 13 13:41:38 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:41:38 +0200 Subject: For Swap : HP 21MX E-Series Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050813203841.02ee47e0@pop.xs4all.nl> I am about to move and need to cut down on my collection a bit for now until I know how much space I really have. One of the items that has to go is a HP 21MX E-Series. I have no idea if it still works etc but willing to look at anything you want me to look at. The system is located in the south-west of the Netherlands and I prefer pick up, shipping might be possible but is going to be VERY expensive. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 13 13:30:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:30:04 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk update In-Reply-To: <20050813023908.OOCM11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050813023908.OOCM11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1123957804.11136.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 22:39 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > In case anyone is interested, an updated ImageDisk is available: Dave, Just to clarify, does this need any particular disk controller chip (or emulation thereof) to work? Or does it somehow get around the problems which 99% of PC floppy controllers seem to have in reading certain disks (particularly FM data)? (one for the website, or the bundles readme.txt file maybe!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 13 13:32:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:32:48 +0000 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1123957968.11136.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 23:11 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new boards? > > Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a company that grew > > so fast like Apple did. > > Woz has been asked this a million times...he doesn't know what happened to > them. The same goes for a lot of stuff from the early days. This is what still particularly interests me about the hobby though - stuff like that invariably turns up sooner or later, tucked away in some ex-employees house / garage / barn. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 13 13:49:06 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:49:06 -0500 Subject: Dual 8" Floppy Drives available Message-ID: <003301c5a037$aebfd4a0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest named FD-X.JPG. These two 8" floppy drives are about 1" tall each. The model number on them is Mitsubishi M2896-63-02U Rev. G. Their functionality is unknown, but were pulled from a working system. They appear to be doublesided. Best offer....or they go to ebay. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 13 13:56:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:56:19 -0500 Subject: voice coil and heads available from unknown drive Message-ID: <003701c5a038$b1572be0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> See picture at www.ezwind.net/jwest picture should be voicecoil.JPG I think this came from a CDC drive, not sure. There are 4 sets of heads on this voicecoil plus a glass reticule track indicator. Head sets 1 & 3 are lined up vertically, head set 2 is off to one side. Then is the glass reticule, and then a 4th set of heads still further off to one side. If someone knows what this is, perhaps they could use the heads. Cost = Shipping. If no one wants it, it will get pitched tomorrow. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 13 14:15:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:15:58 -0500 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? Message-ID: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage place. I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there they said the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So I got a few pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any clue what this thing is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put them in touch with the salvage place owner. Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 13 14:10:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Super Jolt on ePay In-Reply-To: <20050813182206.46279.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, lee davison wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5230100293 Cool! I see Jack Rubin has already placed a bid so I'm rooting for him. Jack's got a great collection of early single board computers going. This will be a nice addition. Go Jack! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Aug 13 14:23:13 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:23:13 -0500 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> Jay West wrote: > I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage > place. I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there > they said the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So > I got a few pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any > clue what this thing is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put > them in touch with the salvage place owner. > > Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit > > Jay West > Looks like a CNC controller to me. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 13 14:16:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <20050813132604.2868f7a4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:11:20 -0700 (PDT) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > Didn't the original manufacturer keep the masks needed to make new > > > boards? Not like somebody would throw away anything useful from a > > > company that grew so fast like Apple did. > > > > Woz has been asked this a million times...he doesn't know what > > happened to them. The same goes for a lot of stuff from the early > > days. > > > It can't be more than a two layer board, can it? It seems like a few > close photographs of even a populated Apple 1 board would make it easy > to 'recreate' the artwork. Right, but there are a lot of traces going underneath the chip sockets, and the sockets are the solid type where you can't see what's underneath. Between a photo and the schematic it is theoretically possible, but I figure someone would've already done it if it was easy. > It's likely that in the era of the Apple 1 they weren't that set on > archiving stuff for historical purposes. You used to be able to pick up > TONS of great old hardware (S-100 boards and systems, and lots of good > stuff) at Swapmeets when everybody had retired it and all anybody wanted > was a fast '286 motherboard. Right, it was just a hobby that suddenly turned into a booming business. Nobody had an inkling they were making any kind of history. They were just having fun and then suddenly making a ton of money doing it when everything went corporate. It all happened too fast. Those serious about looking into Apple's nascent corporate history can request access to their earliest corporate documents now located in Stanford University's library: http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/1997/november19/apple1119.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 13 14:23:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote: > I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage place. > I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there they said > the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So I got a few > pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any clue what this thing > is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put them in touch with the > salvage place owner. Egads. So they're shutting it down and turning it into a Superfund site or something? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Aug 13 14:39:28 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:39:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> References: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <42FE4C70.50307@gjcp.net> James Rice wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage >> place. I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there >> they said the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So >> I got a few pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any >> clue what this thing is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put >> them in touch with the salvage place owner. >> >> Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit >> >> Jay West >> > Looks like a CNC controller to me. > I concur. The "Numerical Controller" sign is a major clue. Look at the panel in http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/07220013.JPG - indicators marked "AXIS LIMIT", "EXCESS ERROR" etc buttons marked "TABLE ZERO", "TURRET ZERO" sounds like CNC terms It would be interesting to know what the blank (rubbed off?) button where the paint is all worn away was. Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 13 16:52:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <42FE4C70.50307@gjcp.net> References: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> <42FE4C70.50307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1184.82.152.112.73.1123969933.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > It would be interesting to know what the blank (rubbed off?) button > where the paint is all worn away was. It's probably the 'go' button :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 13 18:34:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <1184.82.152.112.73.1123969933.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Witchy wrote: > > It would be interesting to know what the blank (rubbed off?) button > > where the paint is all worn away was. > > It's probably the 'go' button :) Naw, it's way too worn. It more likely the "poor me another beer" button. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Aug 13 19:08:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:08:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: References: <1184.82.152.112.73.1123969933.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1651.82.152.112.73.1123978088.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> >> It's probably the 'go' button :) > > Naw, it's way too worn. It more likely the "poor me another beer" button. That's a damn good idea, this is my first saturday night back at my south home for 3 weeks after today's packed Classic Gaming Expo in London so I'm still wired! Pictures will be up once I get hold of a flash card reader. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 13 19:39:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:39:57 -0500 Subject: M9312 archive on classiccmp Message-ID: <001c01c5a068$b25a9150$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I found one of the rom images I put up was a bad prom. Another one read consistently but didn't match two other sources. The images have been replaced. Affected images : 752A9, 248F1, 616F1. I replaced them after getting multiple other images and comparing, so I'm confident the ones up now are all correct. I'd like to post source listings for the boot programs. Anyone got a program to re-arrange the bits correctly, then disassemble? Jay From mpokorni2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 19:45:57 2005 From: mpokorni2000 at yahoo.com (Miroslav Pokorni) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:45:57 -0700 Subject: DEC program listing Message-ID: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> Hello everyone, I am looking for listing of a program. It is for DEC PDP11s, used under test monitor XXDP. The program is WLINK, used for checking out DRV-11W boards in link mode between two machines. The board, DRV-11W, is intended for 16 bit parallel interface either between DEC machines with Unibus or Q Bus or between a Q Bus machine and an external device. I am told, the program is written in some strange language used by DEC people who supported manufacturing, but the listing is in Assembler, I have seen it and used it some 15 years ago. thank you, Miroslav Pokorni From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 13 19:53:20 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:53:20 -0700 Subject: M9312 archive on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <001c01c5a068$b25a9150$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001c01c5a068$b25a9150$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200508131753.20475.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 13 August 2005 17:39, Jay West wrote: > I found one of the rom images I put up was a bad prom. Another one read > consistently but didn't match two other sources. The images have been > replaced. Affected images : 752A9, 248F1, 616F1. I replaced them after > getting multiple other images and comparing, so I'm confident the ones up > now are all correct. > > I'd like to post source listings for the boot programs. Anyone got a > program to re-arrange the bits correctly, then disassemble? now you've got the "rearrange" programs (DOS) (Attached) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 13 20:01:23 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:01:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? References: <004301c5a03b$754e2f60$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> <42FE4C70.50307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <004a01c5a06b$b0a55fe0$575c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? > James Rice wrote: > > Jay West wrote: > > > >> I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage > >> place. I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there > >> they said the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So > >> I got a few pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any > >> clue what this thing is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put > >> them in touch with the salvage place owner. > >> > >> Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit > >> > >> Jay West > >> > > Looks like a CNC controller to me. > > > > I concur. The "Numerical Controller" sign is a major clue. > > Look at the panel in http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/07220013.JPG - > indicators marked "AXIS LIMIT", "EXCESS ERROR" etc > buttons marked "TABLE ZERO", "TURRET ZERO" > sounds like CNC terms > > It would be interesting to know what the blank (rubbed off?) button > where the paint is all worn away was. > > Gordon. > Probably START From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 13 20:05:42 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:05:42 -0700 Subject: M9312 archive on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200508131753.20475.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <001c01c5a068$b25a9150$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200508131753.20475.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200508131805.43044.lbickley@bickleywest.com> This message was meant to go to Jay - not the list. Sorry. Lyle On Saturday 13 August 2005 17:53, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Saturday 13 August 2005 17:39, Jay West wrote: > > I found one of the rom images I put up was a bad prom. Another one read > > consistently but didn't match two other sources. The images have been > > replaced. Affected images : 752A9, 248F1, 616F1. I replaced them after > > getting multiple other images and comparing, so I'm confident the ones up > > now are all correct. > > > > I'd like to post source listings for the boot programs. Anyone got a > > program to re-arrange the bits correctly, then disassemble? > > now you've got the "rearrange" programs (DOS) (Attached) > > Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 13 21:38:24 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:38:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook Message-ID: <8680d7d887f0358c9514f736fe907d11@bitsavers.org> If you use XXDP, you want a copy of this. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/ PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 13 23:15:15 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:15:15 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook In-Reply-To: <8680d7d887f0358c9514f736fe907d11@bitsavers.org> References: <8680d7d887f0358c9514f736fe907d11@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200508132115.16013.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 13 August 2005 19:38, Al Kossow wrote: > If you use XXDP, you want a copy of this. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/ > PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf Al, What a great manual!!! This will save hours of rummaging through XXDP listings to find switch settings! Thanks, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 14 00:23:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:23:18 -0700 Subject: TMSCP bootstrap Message-ID: Until a MU prom can be found, this may help. -- In article <33299DEC.2DB7 at ix.netcom.com>, Bill Hockridge wrote: >I'm looking for the bootstrap loader code to boot a PDP-11/70 from a >TU-81 plus tape drive (M8739 controller card). > >Does anyone have access to the loader code or know where I can find it? Below are some responses that Robin Birch collected and then forwarded to me when I asked a similar question. These form the very first entries in an archive of bootstraps that is available at http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ bootstraps The original attributions for the bootstraps below belong with BSD 2.x (through Steven Schultz) and RT-11 (through Bob Schor). Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) ----------------cut here--------- Here's the TMSCP togglein routine. You start depositing at location 01000. The source is included. as -o a.out tk.s strip a.out dd if=a.out of=b.out bs=16 skip=1 od b.out The 'dd' is needed to removed the a.out header. Enjoy. Steven #! /bin/sh # This is a shell archive, meaning: # 1. Remove everything above the #! /bin/sh line. # 2. Save the resulting text in a file. # 3. Execute the file with /bin/sh (not csh) to create: # b.od # tk.s # This archive created: Sun Jan 21 14:06:24 1996 export PATH; PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH if test -f 'b.od' then echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'b.od'" else cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'b.od' 0000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 * 0001000 005701 001002 012701 174500 005021 012704 004000 005002 0001020 105022 020204 103775 010705 062705 000234 005711 100002 0001040 005741 000762 030411 001772 012511 006304 100367 012737 0001060 000400 002102 012737 000044 002100 010037 002110 012737 0001100 000011 002114 012737 020000 002116 012702 002004 012722 0001120 002020 010203 010422 012722 002104 010422 014102 005713 0001140 100776 105737 002032 001320 012702 002114 012722 000045 0001160 012722 020002 005022 005022 005022 010413 010437 002012 0001200 011102 005713 100776 105737 002032 001276 012702 002114 0001220 012722 000041 012722 020000 012722 001000 005022 005022 0001240 010413 010437 002012 011102 005713 100776 105737 002032 0001260 001253 005007 100000 002004 000000 000001 0001274 SHAR_EOF fi if test -f 'tk.s' then echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'tk.s'" else cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'tk.s' . = .+ 01000 / TMSCP bootrom code. / R0 = Unit to boot from / R1 = CSR of controller (0 if default 174500 to be used) start: tst r1 bne rewind mov $174500,r1 rewind: clr (r1)+ / start tk init sequence / move pointer to tksa register mov $4000,r4 / state test bit to step 1 clr r2 / clear bottom 4000(8) bytes 1: clrb (r2)+ cmp r2,r4 blo 1b mov pc,r5 / position independent address add $cmdtbl-.,r5 / of init seq table 2: tst (r1) / error ? bpl 1f / no - skip the backup tst -(r1) / put CSR back to entry value br rewind / might as well go try again 1: bit r4,(r1) / current step done ? beq 2b / no mov (r5)+,(r1) / yes, load next step info from table asl r4 / change state test bit to next step bpl 2b / if all steps not done, go back / r4 now = 100000, TK_OWN bit mov $400,*$cmdhdr+2 / tape VCID = 1 mov $36.,*$cmdhdr / command packet length / don't set response packet length, / little shakey but it works. mov r0,*$unit / set unit in packet mov $11,*$tkcmd+8. / on-line command opcode mov $20000,*$tkcmd+10. / set clear serious exception mov $ring,r2 / initialize cmd/rsp ring mov $tkrsp,(r2)+ / address of response packet mov r2,r3 / save address "ring+2" mov r4,(r2)+ / set TK owner mov $tkcmd,(r2)+ / address of command packet mov r4,(r2)+ / set TK owner mov -(r1),r2 / start TK polling 3: tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) bmi 3b tstb *$tkrsp+10. bne rewind mov $tkcmd+8.,r2 mov $45,(r2)+ / reposition opcode mov $20002,(r2)+ / set rewind & clear serious exception clr (r2)+ / clear record/object count clr (r2)+ / zzz2 clr (r2)+ / clear tape mark count mov r4,(r3) / set TK owner of response (ring+2) mov r4,*$ring+6 / set TK owner of command mov (r1),r2 / start TK polling 1: tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) bmi 1b tstb *$tkrsp+10. / does returned status = SUCCESS ? bne rewind / no, hang mov $tkcmd+8.,r2 mov $41,(r2)+ / read opcode mov $20000,(r2)+ / set clear serious exception mov $512.,(r2)+ / byte count clr (r2)+ / zzz2 clr (r2)+ / buffer address is 0 mov r4,(r3) / set TK owner of response (ring+2) mov r4,*$ring+6 / set TK owner of command mov (r1),r2 / start TK polling 1: tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) bmi 1b tstb *$tkrsp+10. / does returned status = SUCCESS ? bne rewind / no, hang clr pc cmdtbl: 100000 / TK_ERR, init step 1 ring / address of ringbase 0 / hi ringbase address 1 / TK go bit end: cmdint = 2000 / TMSCP stuff starts at 1kb rspint = cmdint+2. ring = rspint+2. rsphdr = ring+8. tkrsp = rsphdr+4. cmdhdr = tkrsp+48. tkcmd = cmdhdr+4. unit = tkcmd+4 SHAR_EOF fi exit 0 # End of shell archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- TMSCP Bootstrap RT-11 Installation Guide (AA-H376F-TC) Toggle the following instructions into memory, starting at address 076026 (the last instruction goes into 076176). When done, check to make sure all addresses have the correct content, then start running from 076026. Note that this asssumes that a bootable tape is loaded in the MU: device. 076100 100077 076102 105237 076104 100075 076106 010037 076110 100104 076112 112437 076114 100115 076116 112437 076120 100110 076122 010522 076124 010522 076026 005000 076126 012722 076030 012701 076130 100100 076032 174500 076132 010512 076034 012704 076134 024242 076036 076160 076136 005711 076040 012705 076140 005712 076042 004000 076142 100776 076044 010102 076144 005737 076046 012422 076146 100012 076050 005712 076150 001331 076052 100770 076152 105704 076054 031205 076154 100344 076056 001774 076156 005007 076060 012412 076160 046525 076062 006305 076162 100000 076064 100371 076164 100200 076066 010502 076166 000000 076070 005022 076170 000001 076072 105702 076172 004400 076074 100375 076174 020476 076076 105237 076176 020402 From bernd at kopriva.de Sun Aug 14 06:22:42 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:22:42 +0200 Subject: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? Message-ID: <20050814101049.D0B8B39207@linux.local> Hi, i got an ISA card, that includes a MC68000-16, 4 ATT 3030-100 chips, 4 MByte Ram and connectors labeled SCSI and Floppy Drive/Floppy Controller ... ... it was manufactured 1990/91 by Hydra Systems. Google revealed, that this could be a "Andor One"/"Hydra One". Does anyone have some more information, and maybe the software required to operate that card ? Thanks alot Bernd From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Aug 14 06:51:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:51:18 -0400 Subject: ImageDisk update Message-ID: <20050814115117.ISKY6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Jules, >Just to clarify, does this need any particular disk controller chip (or >emulation thereof) to work? Or does it somehow get around the problems >which 99% of PC floppy controllers seem to have in reading certain disks >(particularly FM data)? ImageDisk works with the standard Nec765 based PC controller, preferably an AT or higher on which the data rate can be set. This has all the limitations inherent in many PC implementations. In testing about a dozen machines, I've found three which can read AND write mixed density disks without complaint. The FDCs on Intel mainboards appear to be quite good if you can live with the fact that they couldn't be bothered to provide a Drive-B select on the interface connector. >(one for the website, or the bundles readme.txt file maybe!) All of this information (and more) appears in ImageDisks online help. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 14 08:55:54 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:55:54 -0400 Subject: HP21MX booster board? References: <001701c5a030$c0719230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000501c5a0d7$e47590d0$0100a8c0@screamer> I've seen several E-series CPU's fitted with a 'Booster Microcode' board. The board I'm describing here is just about half the size of the CPU board. Despite its name, it does not hold microcode ROM's. It does have a series of 74S181 ALU chips and other logic that expands the data paths and ALU of the main CPU. This board appears to have evolved from the FFT processor options that would plug into I/O slots. This configuration it often found in HP's vibration control and vibration analyzer systems, where there were also microcode ROM's installed to drive this thing. I've never found documentation to described the booster microcode board itself, nor the instructions added by the microcode that drives these things. (It does seem that there is more than one set of microcode ROM's installed with this board). In an E-series machine, this board and its additional microcode can be removed to return the CPU to a 'stock' configuration. Terry Newton's 21MX was just such a customized processor that was re-configured into a 'stock' E series box with DMS and FFP for HP-IPL/OS development. On an M-series I suspect things are a little different, as the M-series CPU lacks the mircoprogrammable processor port used to drive this thing (at least that's how its cabled up on HP's vibration control systems). I'm not sure how the extra bits of the booster board get mapped into the mircoengine of the M series. I also don't know if your board is exactly the same as the one used on the E series, but I'd guess its not, due to the lack of the MPP port. In any case, the E-series version of this board is fairly common, I probably have 4 or 5 extras, as well as a complete CPU with all the cables and ROM's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:59 PM Subject: HP21MX booster board? >I am doing a little basement cleaning and pitching some things. Was tossing >an HP frequency analyzer that was in bad shape and decided to pop the cover >and grab the cpu board (the cpu board is a 21MX M-series). Also got 64k >memory & controller :) > > My question is two fold -first, what's necessary to use this M series > board as a regular processor. I see the base instruction set on the bottom > plus two additional non-standard microcode cards. I can just remove those, > but didn't know if any changes to the M series board were required. > Second, there is a board I've never seen before mounted under the > mainboard on the opposite end of the microcode. The board is labled > "booster board" and is about 1/2 the size of the main cpu board. I would > normally think this was just a specific board to the frequency analyzer, > but, I think I've heard Bob Shannon talk about this booster board before > in more general terms. Should I keep the booster board? > > Jay West > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 14 10:42:25 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:42:25 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Rescue for a Toshiba T250 computer, CP/M, N. Chicago Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050814104200.054e2b70@mail> >From: "Dave Bradshaw" >To: >Subject: Toshiba T250 computer >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:32:06 -0500 > >Hi John, > >In 1998 I exchanged emailed with you briefly regarding several thousand files residing on a Toshiba 8080 (?) based CP/M computer model T250 that I wanted to transfer to Word. I procrastinated as long as I could, but I finally got everything moved over to my Windows XP system. > >At the time you asked me what I was going to do with the system, so I thought I would offer it to you before I put it up on eBay. I am located in the northern Chicago suburbs. > >Here is a description: >Toshiba T250 CP/M 8080 (?) based micro computer >Two 8? DD DS floppy drives (1MB capacity per drive) >Parallel Port (built in cable) >RS-232 Serial Port (built in cable) >CP/M 64K Version 2.20 >Original Manuals >CP/M Primer Book > >I also have about 100 diskettes, some new, most used, but all formatted and functional. Software includes: >CP/M V2.12 >CP/M V2.20 >PMATE 3.02 Text Editor. Licensed copy with manuals and source code for compile >Magsam-E ISAM File Utilities >The usual CP/M stuff: CBASIC, STAT, PIP, and Disc Utilities >A freshly compiled version of Kermit that I used to do all of the file transfers over the last 2 weeks > >I am the original owner, and bought the machine some time in early 1982. Everything is 100% functional and in good working order. > >I look forward to hearing from you. >Dave Bradshaw >DDD >847-501-6570 >dave at fishmonger.com > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Aug 14 10:52:26 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:52:26 +0100 Subject: cy7c265 proms etc. References: <001701c5a030$c0719230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000501c5a0d7$e47590d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <002501c5a0e8$3a09ba20$0200a8c0@geoff> WCN Supplies in Southampton has the following for sale : CY7C263 15PC 28 PIN DIL 50p each. CY7C263 20PC 24 PIN DIL ?1 ea. CY7C265 15WC 28 PIN DIL ?1 ea. CY7C277 30WC 28 PIN DIL ?1 ea. CY7C287 45WC 28 PIN DIL ?1 ea. Seems a lot cheaper than on the net, - in their latest flyer. email : info at wcnsupplies.fsnet.co.uk if interested. Datasheet http://www.chipcatalog.com/Datasheet/AFDE812169D457F75D2F1BF6EF3657D6.htm Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 12/08/05 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Aug 14 11:05:33 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:05:33 -0700 Subject: TMSCP bootstrap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508140905.33745.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Great find! Thanks Al. Lyle On Saturday 13 August 2005 22:23, Al Kossow wrote: > Until a MU prom can be found, this may help. > > -- > > In article <33299DEC.2DB7 at ix.netcom.com>, > > Bill Hockridge wrote: > >I'm looking for the bootstrap loader code to boot a PDP-11/70 from a > >TU-81 plus tape drive (M8739 controller card). > > > >Does anyone have access to the loader code or know where I can find it? > > Below are some responses that Robin Birch collected and then forwarded > to me when I asked a similar question. These form the very first > entries in an archive of bootstraps that is available at > > http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ > bootstraps > > The original attributions for the bootstraps below belong with > BSD 2.x (through Steven Schultz) and RT-11 (through Bob Schor). > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) > > ----------------cut here--------- > > Here's the TMSCP togglein routine. You start depositing at > location 01000. > > The source is included. > > as -o a.out tk.s > strip a.out > dd if=a.out of=b.out bs=16 skip=1 > od b.out > > The 'dd' is needed to removed the a.out header. > > Enjoy. > > Steven > #! /bin/sh > # This is a shell archive, meaning: > # 1. Remove everything above the #! /bin/sh line. > # 2. Save the resulting text in a file. > # 3. Execute the file with /bin/sh (not csh) to create: > # b.od > # tk.s > # This archive created: Sun Jan 21 14:06:24 1996 > export PATH; PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH > if test -f 'b.od' > then > echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'b.od'" > else > cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'b.od' > 0000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 > * > 0001000 005701 001002 012701 174500 005021 012704 004000 005002 > 0001020 105022 020204 103775 010705 062705 000234 005711 100002 > 0001040 005741 000762 030411 001772 012511 006304 100367 012737 > 0001060 000400 002102 012737 000044 002100 010037 002110 012737 > 0001100 000011 002114 012737 020000 002116 012702 002004 012722 > 0001120 002020 010203 010422 012722 002104 010422 014102 005713 > 0001140 100776 105737 002032 001320 012702 002114 012722 000045 > 0001160 012722 020002 005022 005022 005022 010413 010437 002012 > 0001200 011102 005713 100776 105737 002032 001276 012702 002114 > 0001220 012722 000041 012722 020000 012722 001000 005022 005022 > 0001240 010413 010437 002012 011102 005713 100776 105737 002032 > 0001260 001253 005007 100000 002004 000000 000001 > 0001274 > SHAR_EOF > fi > if test -f 'tk.s' > then > echo shar: "will not over-write existing file 'tk.s'" > else > cat << \SHAR_EOF > 'tk.s' > . = .+ 01000 > / TMSCP bootrom code. > / R0 = Unit to boot from > / R1 = CSR of controller (0 if default 174500 to be used) > > start: > tst r1 > bne rewind > mov $174500,r1 > rewind: > clr (r1)+ / start tk init sequence > / move pointer to tksa register > mov $4000,r4 / state test bit to step 1 > > clr r2 / clear bottom 4000(8) bytes > 1: > clrb (r2)+ > cmp r2,r4 > blo 1b > > mov pc,r5 / position independent address > add $cmdtbl-.,r5 / of init seq table > 2: > tst (r1) / error ? > bpl 1f / no - skip the backup > tst -(r1) / put CSR back to entry value > br rewind / might as well go try again > 1: > bit r4,(r1) / current step done ? > beq 2b / no > mov (r5)+,(r1) / yes, load next step info from table > asl r4 / change state test bit to next step > bpl 2b / if all steps not done, go back > / r4 now = 100000, TK_OWN bit > mov $400,*$cmdhdr+2 / tape VCID = 1 > mov $36.,*$cmdhdr / command packet length > / don't set response packet length, > / little shakey but it works. > mov r0,*$unit / set unit in packet > mov $11,*$tkcmd+8. / on-line command opcode > mov $20000,*$tkcmd+10. / set clear serious exception > mov $ring,r2 / initialize cmd/rsp ring > mov $tkrsp,(r2)+ / address of response packet > mov r2,r3 / save address "ring+2" > mov r4,(r2)+ / set TK owner > mov $tkcmd,(r2)+ / address of command packet > mov r4,(r2)+ / set TK owner > mov -(r1),r2 / start TK polling > 3: > tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) > bmi 3b > tstb *$tkrsp+10. > bne rewind > > mov $tkcmd+8.,r2 > mov $45,(r2)+ / reposition opcode > mov $20002,(r2)+ / set rewind & clear serious exception > clr (r2)+ / clear record/object count > clr (r2)+ / zzz2 > clr (r2)+ / clear tape mark count > > mov r4,(r3) / set TK owner of response (ring+2) > mov r4,*$ring+6 / set TK owner of command > mov (r1),r2 / start TK polling > 1: > tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) > bmi 1b > tstb *$tkrsp+10. / does returned status = SUCCESS ? > bne rewind / no, hang > > mov $tkcmd+8.,r2 > mov $41,(r2)+ / read opcode > mov $20000,(r2)+ / set clear serious exception > mov $512.,(r2)+ / byte count > clr (r2)+ / zzz2 > clr (r2)+ / buffer address is 0 > > mov r4,(r3) / set TK owner of response (ring+2) > mov r4,*$ring+6 / set TK owner of command > mov (r1),r2 / start TK polling > 1: > tst (r3) / wait for response (ring+2) > bmi 1b > tstb *$tkrsp+10. / does returned status = SUCCESS ? > bne rewind / no, hang > > clr pc > > cmdtbl: > 100000 / TK_ERR, init step 1 > ring / address of ringbase > 0 / hi ringbase address > 1 / TK go bit > end: > > cmdint = 2000 / TMSCP stuff starts at 1kb > rspint = cmdint+2. > ring = rspint+2. > rsphdr = ring+8. > tkrsp = rsphdr+4. > cmdhdr = tkrsp+48. > tkcmd = cmdhdr+4. > unit = tkcmd+4 > SHAR_EOF > fi > exit 0 > # End of shell archive > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > TMSCP Bootstrap > RT-11 Installation Guide (AA-H376F-TC) > > > Toggle the following instructions into memory, starting at address > 076026 (the last instruction goes into 076176). When done, check to > make > sure all addresses have the correct content, then start running from > 076026. Note that this asssumes that a bootable tape is loaded in the > MU: > device. > > 076100 100077 > 076102 105237 > 076104 100075 > 076106 010037 > 076110 100104 > 076112 112437 > 076114 100115 > 076116 112437 > 076120 100110 > 076122 010522 > 076124 010522 > 076026 005000 076126 012722 > 076030 012701 076130 100100 > 076032 174500 076132 010512 > 076034 012704 076134 024242 > 076036 076160 076136 005711 > 076040 012705 076140 005712 > 076042 004000 076142 100776 > 076044 010102 076144 005737 > 076046 012422 076146 100012 > 076050 005712 076150 001331 > 076052 100770 076152 105704 > 076054 031205 076154 100344 > 076056 001774 076156 005007 > 076060 012412 076160 046525 > 076062 006305 076162 100000 > 076064 100371 076164 100200 > 076066 010502 076166 000000 > 076070 005022 076170 000001 > 076072 105702 076172 004400 > 076074 100375 076174 020476 > 076076 105237 076176 020402 -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 14 11:06:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:06:58 +0000 Subject: Metier Artemis 4200? Message-ID: <1124035618.12011.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone know anything about these critters? From what I've gleaned from the web the hardware's just rebadged HP kit, and the software's all related to project management (personal yawn!). Just wondered if there was anything oddball about the hardware that makes it particularly worth saving... cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Aug 14 11:32:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:32:16 -0400 Subject: DEC program listing References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Miroslav" == Miroslav Pokorni writes: Miroslav> Hello everyone, I am looking for listing of a program. It Miroslav> is for DEC PDP11s, used under test monitor XXDP. The Miroslav> program is WLINK, used for checking out DRV-11W boards in Miroslav> link mode between two machines. The board, DRV-11W, is Miroslav> intended for 16 bit parallel interface either between DEC Miroslav> machines with Unibus or Q Bus or between a Q Bus machine Miroslav> and an external device. Miroslav> I am told, the program is written in some strange language Miroslav> used by DEC people who supported manufacturing, but the Miroslav> listing is in Assembler, I have seen it and used it some 15 Miroslav> years ago. If the listing is assembler then that would presumably be the source language as well. I can't imagine what else would be used for PDP-11 diagnostics. The only other language that could, maybe, do the job would be Bliss, but I don't know that DEC ever did anything in Bliss on PDP-11s. (Good thing too; "Bliss is Ignorance" as the saying goes.) paul From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Aug 14 12:18:09 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:18:09 -0500 Subject: Got the Book Message-ID: <008201c5a0f4$2614d110$45406b43@66067007> That signed copy of "Design of a Computer Control Data 6600" came in the mail Friday as gift, someone paid the $125 for it. I started reading it late Friday and looking at the pictures. :-) John From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 14 12:31:52 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:31:52 -0700 Subject: Got the Book Message-ID: I started reading it late Friday and looking at the pictures. -- If others would like to do the same http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/6x00/books/ DesignOfAComputer_CDC6600.pdf From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 14 13:09:44 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:09:44 -0700 Subject: Attaching a Macintosh 400k external disk drive to a Catweasel Message-ID: <1h1a6v5.379itn1liryauM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Anybody have any thoughts regarding this? I'd like to accomplish this without destroying the connector on the 400k disk drive. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From rickb at bensene.com Sun Aug 14 14:02:50 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:02:50 -0700 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <42FE48A1.4080505@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> > Looks like a CNC controller to me. > Actually, it's most likely not a CNC controller. It's probably too early to be a "Computized Numerical Control" device. There's probably no computer at all in there. It's likely an NC (Numerical Control) controller. The difference is that NC controllers are "hard-coded" logic, purpousefully-designed for controlling a specific piece of Equipment. Once minicomputers got inexpensive enough (e.g., PDP 8/e and smaller PDP 11's), they were a natural to become the controllers. But, in the late '60's and early '70's, it was more practical to build dedicated hardware to do the work. Later, microprocessors took over for the minicomputers, and nowadays, the controls are generally just PC's with specialized interfaces in them to drive the steppers, control spindle motor, and read absolute or incremental position encoders. This Houdaille controller looks VERY similar to a Houdaille control that was connected up to a Burgmaster vertical mill at my Dad's machine shop in the mid-70's. He bought the machine used, and the control was dated from the early '70's. There was no computer involved..it was simply a dedicated function state machine which read codes off of the paper tape step-at-a-time, and directed the action of stepper motors connected to each axis of the machine to carry out the operations. The old hardwired control on the Burgmaster failed at one point, and it wasn't worth it to repair it, so it was replaced with a later model Houdaille control that utilized an Industrial 8/e as the brains for the control. This was the first "CNC" control in my Dad's shop. Input was still via paper tape, but the whole program was loaded into memory at once, and executed out of memory, rather than the step-by-step reading of the program on the earlier control. It was also possible to edit the program in memory to correct errors discovered once the program was run on the actual hardware. The Industrial 8/e had a ROM board in it that contained the control software. Software updates for the control were performed by installing new ROMs. The first NC machine in my Dad's shop was a Rambaudi vertical mill, with a very early Superior Electric Slo-Syn NC Control. The control was all transistor...no IC's. It was housed in a 6 ft. tall 19" rack, with many, many small circuit boards plugged into a wire-wrapped backplane. It wasn't a very smart controller...it couldn't do absolute positioning...everything was relative. My dad let me write a program to do a complex part that had a lot of drilled and tapped holes in a big plate of steel. I got to punch it up on the Flexowriter, and it ran perfect the first time. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 14 14:11:44 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:11:44 -0400 Subject: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > but I don't know that DEC ever did anything in Bliss on PDP-11s The Error log analyzer in RSX-11 is in Bliss-11, as is the serial-line-transfer utility (name escapes me at the moment, XFER?) that came with RT-11. Sources to a BLISS-11 compiler are in DECUS entry 10-213, available on DECUS library tape DECUS-10-LIB-4 in the [43,50325] directory. See http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ if you don't already have all the DECUS-10 library tapes. The Bliss-11 on the DECUS tape is not quite the same as the Bliss compiler used to build the tools I mentioned, but is an earlier version. I think internal to DEC the version of the Bliss compiler that ran on a VAX and cross-compiled to the PDP-11 was called Bliss-16. Tim. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Aug 14 14:40:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:40:57 -0400 Subject: DEC program listing References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: >> but I don't know that DEC ever did anything in Bliss on PDP-11s Tim> The Error log analyzer in RSX-11 is in Bliss-11, as is the Tim> serial-line-transfer utility (name escapes me at the moment, Tim> XFER?) that came with RT-11. Thanks, I didn't know that. I never encountered those. RSTS certainly never did anything like that. Having BASIC-PLUS around helps, of course, and when that wasn't good enough, there was FORTH! Tim> Sources to a BLISS-11 compiler are in DECUS entry 10-213, Tim> available on DECUS library tape DECUS-10-LIB-4 in the [43,50325] Tim> directory. Tim> See http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ if you don't already have Tim> all the DECUS-10 library tapes. Tim> The Bliss-11 on the DECUS tape is not quite the same as the Tim> Bliss compiler used to build the tools I mentioned, but is an Tim> earlier version. Tim> I think internal to DEC the version of the Bliss compiler that Tim> ran on a VAX and cross-compiled to the PDP-11 was called Tim> Bliss-16. That sounds familiar, there's Bliss-16 and Bliss-11; one is from Carnegie-Mellon and compiles on a 10, the other from DEC and compiles on a VAX. But they all are Bliss, which is a truly atrocious language. paul From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Aug 14 16:15:50 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:15:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <42FFB486.7000103@comcast.net> Rick, Hey, that's a nice Calculator museum you have going there. I collect some of the old Calc's too since my brother left me his first calc's, HP-34C, and HP-35 \ Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rick Bensene wrote: >The Old Calculator Web Museum >http://oldcalculatormuseum.com >Beavercreek, Oregon > > > > > From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 14 19:10:49 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:10:49 -0400 Subject: Stuff for sale/trade Message-ID: <000501c5a12d$ca6b5840$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I'm rearranging the shop and I've found a bunch of stuff in boxes that I haven't used in a long time, some classic and some not. Here's the list: Compaq DLT 5g/10g SCSI tape drive. Working condition; pulled from service at home. Circuit Cellar SB180. Includes COMM180 board and floppy drives in a nice "shoebox" case. With disks. Circuit Cellar MPX16 system in case with software. HP Plotter 7550A (8-pen). Working (very heavy). Fluke 9010A microprocessor troubleshooter with 8080 pod. Working last time used. Remaining spare BYTEs: 1975: 12 1976: 4 1977: 2,3,10,11,12 1978: 1-6, 9 1979: 1,5-10,12 1980: 4,7-10 1981: 3-5,8 1983: 3,8 Please contact me off-list if interested in any/all. I'm trying to pare down my collection of things so I'd be interested in $$$ more than a trade (although I'm looking for MITS tape software and a memory board for a KIM-1). Shipping or pick-up would be from Syosset, NY (11791). US/Canada only (except magazines). Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Aug 14 19:43:14 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:43:14 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/08/2005, at 5:40 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > That sounds familiar, there's Bliss-16 and Bliss-11; one is from > Carnegie-Mellon and compiles on a 10, the other from DEC and compiles > on a VAX. But they all are Bliss, which is a truly atrocious > language. I always wonder why people think BLISS is such a bad language. I know that many people inside DEC don't like it as they were forced to use it as the new "standard" language but personally BLISS is one of my favorites. I'm more than happy to hear why others think BLISS is so bad. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 14 19:43:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Attaching a Macintosh 400k external disk drive to a Catweasel In-Reply-To: <1h1a6v5.379itn1liryauM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <1h1a6v5.379itn1liryauM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050814173958.G34716@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, tim lindner wrote: > Anybody have any thoughts regarding this? > > I'd like to accomplish this without destroying the connector on the 400k > disk drive. The Catweasel is designed for an SA400 interface, NOT a Mac external interface. You COULD build a dedicated board to interface a Mac drive (MicroSolutions once did (NOT the Compaticard!!!!)). Or you could connect the Catweasel (OR CopyII Option Board (DELUXE)) to an SA400 type drive and write software to access the content. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 14 19:44:30 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:44:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Supercolour 6000 Message-ID: <20050815004430.24061.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Found one of these recently. It seems to be an intelligent hires graphics capable terminal with a number of emulation modes including . ANSI & DEC VT Aydin REGIS Tektronix TDS C4000 I have the 6041 desktop unit and 6071 VT220 keyboard, no monitor though. Inside the 6041 are two cards, one with a Philips 68070 and 1MB of battery backed SRAM (batteries missing) and a TMS34010 based card I assume this is the CPU/video card. Anyone know anything about this? Is it worth keeping? It needs batteries, fixings - screws etc, and probably some cleanup where a previous owner hand soldered 1/2 MB of zip RAM in. I've not powered it as I don't know the monitor requirements and it's not top priority yet. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 14 19:49:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20050814174725.W34716@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Rick Bensene wrote: > Actually, it's most likely not a CNC controller. It's probably too early to > be a "Computized Numerical Control" device. There's probably no computer at > all in there. It's likely an NC (Numerical Control) controller. The Is anybody here familiar with the Amacom/Amada machines? They seem to still be in common usage. I don't know what processor they have, or what OS, but the disk format is closely based on CP/M (on a 3.5" DSDD). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 14 20:09:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:09:12 -0500 Subject: HP21MX booster board? References: <001701c5a030$c0719230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000501c5a0d7$e47590d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <009d01c5a135$f2d37490$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > The board I'm describing here is just about half the size of the CPU > board. > Despite its name, it does not hold microcode ROM's. It does have a series > of 74S181 ALU chips and other logic that expands the data paths and ALU > of the main CPU. Yup, same board I've got here, including about five 181's. > In an E-series machine, this board and its additional microcode can be > removed to return the CPU to a 'stock' configuration. I figured the microcode and booster board needed to be removed (as well as the custom loader ROMS) ;) I wasn't sure if there was any customizations directly to the mainboard. I'll power this one up and run it through a full diagnostic set to see if it works. If so, nice to have a spare for my M series machines. > I'm not sure how the > extra bits of the booster board get mapped into the mircoengine of the M > series. The M series booster board connects to the M series mainboard via the front panel connector (J1). That part I remember for sure. There was also a board in the I/O cage marked "05443-60031 MOIB interface". I THINK the ribbon cable went from this board went to a board in the front area, perhaps the booster board. I didn't pay that close of attention figuring I'd not be using it. There was also an odd HP-IB board. 15420A. This went in the I/O card cage and had an HP-IB connector on the back that protruded through the case. I'm asuming it wouldn't be usable for a "normal" HP-IB interface. > In any case, the E-series version of this board is fairly common, I > probably > have 4 or 5 extras, as well as a complete CPU with all the cables and > ROM's. Ok, I'll probably strip the 15420A, MOIB interface, and MOIB board for parts. At the very least I want the 1820-0956 chips! Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Aug 14 20:54:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sanyo MBC-1000 Message-ID: I have an old Sanyo MBC-1000 CPM machine that is completely in my way, so out it goes. It powers up, but I don't have a CPM disk, so not much happens. I have some disks for applications, and the original users manual (sort of a thick thing). Anyone interested? It weighs about 40 pounds or so unpacked, and figure shipping from 10512. Cheap! Real cheap! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 14 21:36:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:36:12 -0500 Subject: HP tape drive available Message-ID: <003301c5a142$1cda28e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> HP 7970B (800BPI) I powered it up once, arms lost tension. May need major repair, maybe just a cleaning. I never looked in to it. It's taking too much room. First vaguely fair offer + shipping. I'm going to guess that it's around 130 pounds perhaps. Jay West From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 14 21:56:44 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:56:44 -0400 Subject: HP tape drive available References: <003301c5a142$1cda28e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000301c5a144$f945b3b0$0100a8c0@screamer> Jay, What would the shipping cost be to my address?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 10:36 PM Subject: HP tape drive available > HP 7970B (800BPI) > > I powered it up once, arms lost tension. May need major repair, maybe just > a cleaning. I never looked in to it. It's taking too much room. First > vaguely fair offer + shipping. I'm going to guess that it's around 130 > pounds perhaps. > > Jay West > From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 00:05:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:05:35 -0500 Subject: Attaching a Macintosh 400k external disk drive to a Catweasel In-Reply-To: <20050814173958.G34716@shell.lmi.net> References: <1h1a6v5.379itn1liryauM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <20050814173958.G34716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4300229F.70805@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Or you could connect the Catweasel (OR CopyII Option Board (DELUXE)) to an > SA400 type drive and write software to access the content. The Central Point Option Board Deluxe *already* comes with software to read/write mac 400k/800k disks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 15 06:11:50 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:11:50 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com><17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL><42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <003601c5a18a$231ba420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'm more than happy to hear why others think BLISS is so bad. Similarly, not knowing either case, I would be interested in hearing why BLISS is good. John A. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Aug 15 07:57:20 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:57:20 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <003601c5a18a$231ba420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> <003601c5a18a$231ba420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5CFD69EE-DF86-4CE0-87A0-2A37ADC1CE95@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/08/2005, at 9:11 PM, John Allain wrote: >> I'm more than happy to hear why others think BLISS is so bad. >> > > Similarly, not knowing either case, I would be interested in hearing > why BLISS is good. OK, from my viewpoint (based a lot on BLISS-10 but I've done BLISS-32 programming as well). Good features (IMHO) 1) No GOTO - probably the first systems programming language to be designed without one. 2) Generated good code - considerable emphasis was made to ensuring that BLISS-10 could be used to replace assembler. 3) Everything is an lvalue. BLISS uses the "." operator to get the contents of an lvalue. So what in most other languages would be written as i := i + 1 becomes i := .i + 1, unless of course you want to put the address of the location after i into it. This of course, led to lots of stupid programming errors, my favorite one (and one that lead to lots of interesting effects) was a bit of code that read something like WHILE work EQ 1 DO lots of code OD Of course, given that this code effectively said, while the address of work is 1 do "lots of code" lead to the optimizer eliminating lots of dead code and a very small executable :-) Everything as an lvalue works backwards to the way c does it and allows you to do really neat stuff with indirect addressing. It makes call by value and call by reference far more obvious. Combined with user defined structures (see point 4) this allows very elegant structure manipulations. 4) User defined structures. You can set up a structure to define data structures. This is very analogous to c struc. 5) Modules. BLISS was designed from day one to support modules and all the necessary things to allow them to be linked against each other. 6) Co-routines were part of the language. Of course, I don't think I ever used this but it's there. 7) Macro processing is built in, not an add-on. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 15 08:03:00 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <5CFD69EE-DF86-4CE0-87A0-2A37ADC1CE95@kerberos.davies.net.au> from Huw Davies at "Aug 15, 5 10:57:20 pm" Message-ID: <200508151303.GAA08580@floodgap.com> > 3) Everything is an lvalue. BLISS uses the "." operator to get the > contents of an lvalue. So what in most other languages would be > written as i := i + 1 becomes i := .i + 1, unless of course you want > to put the address of the location after i into it. Interesting. Is there a BLISS language description out there somewhere? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I do not know myself, and God forbid that I should. -- J. W. von Goethe ---- From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 15 08:12:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:12:46 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <17152.38094.901000.964293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> On 15/08/2005, at 5:40 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> That sounds familiar, there's Bliss-16 and Bliss-11; one is from >> Carnegie-Mellon and compiles on a 10, the other from DEC and >> compiles on a VAX. But they all are Bliss, which is a truly >> atrocious language. Huw> I always wonder why people think BLISS is such a bad language. I Huw> know that many people inside DEC don't like it as they were Huw> forced to use it as the new "standard" language but personally Huw> BLISS is one of my favorites. Because it is so easy to write bugs with it, and so hard to find them. The use of . is quite warped and utterly against high level language principles. (The only thing that even comes close is FORTH.) Watching someone waste several days tracking down a bug (program running wild) that turned out to be one missing . convinced me to stay away from Bliss. paul From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Aug 15 09:23:22 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:23:22 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <200508151303.GAA08580@floodgap.com> References: <200508151303.GAA08580@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8F660F3D-A6EF-48FE-86C2-26252C7F56AD@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/08/2005, at 11:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> 3) Everything is an lvalue. BLISS uses the "." operator to get the >> contents of an lvalue. So what in most other languages would be >> written as i := i + 1 becomes i := .i + 1, unless of course you want >> to put the address of the location after i into it. >> > > Interesting. Is there a BLISS language description out there > somewhere? Wulf et al. wrote an article describing BLISS-10 which was published in CACM. A quick google gives http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?BLISS-ARTICLE as one place it can be downloaded from. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Aug 15 09:28:47 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:28:47 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17152.38094.901000.964293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> <17152.38094.901000.964293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/08/2005, at 11:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: > > Huw> I always wonder why people think BLISS is such a bad language. I > Huw> know that many people inside DEC don't like it as they were > Huw> forced to use it as the new "standard" language but personally > Huw> BLISS is one of my favorites. > > Because it is so easy to write bugs with it, and so hard to find them. I agree that missing .'s did cause some problems but I recall having to debug far fewer missing .'s compared to missing equal signs in c. The number of times I've written if (a = b) when I mean if (a == b) is the main reason I refuse to write c programs (not even for money). > The use of . is quite warped and utterly against high level language > principles. (The only thing that even comes close is FORTH.) Well the everything is an lvalue is different, but in some ways it's easier to explain i := .i + 1 to new programmers than i := i + 1 where the context of i changes (it's even worse in FORTRAN where the syntax is i = i + 1 given that FORTRAN was written for maths/physics types.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 15 10:12:20 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <000801c5a1ab$bb9faa90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble crossing a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. I have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 15 10:35:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:35:21 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com> <17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au> <17152.38094.901000.964293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <17152.46649.19000.81121@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> On 15/08/2005, at 11:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies >>>>>>> writes: >> Huw> I always wonder why people think BLISS is such a bad language. I Huw> know that many people inside DEC don't like it as they were Huw> forced to use it as the new "standard" language but personally Huw> BLISS is one of my favorites. >> Because it is so easy to write bugs with it, and so hard to find >> them. Huw> I agree that missing .'s did cause some problems but I recall Huw> having to debug far fewer missing .'s compared to missing equal Huw> signs in c. The number of times I've written if (a = b) when I Huw> mean if (a == b) is the main reason I refuse to write c programs Huw> (not even for money). Right, but at least C compilers can be asked to warn you about that. >> The use of . is quite warped and utterly against high level >> language principles. (The only thing that even comes close is >> FORTH.) Huw> Well the everything is an lvalue is different, but in some ways Huw> it's easier to explain i := .i + 1 to new programmers than i := Huw> i + 1 where the context of i changes (it's even worse in FORTRAN Huw> where the syntax is i = i + 1 given that FORTRAN was written for Huw> maths/physics types.... Yes, if a novice programmer were to learn Bliss as the first language, I suppose the risk is much reduced. But that never happens, so it doesn't help. paul From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 15 11:15:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Huw Davies wrote: > I agree that missing .'s did cause some problems but I recall having > to debug far > fewer missing .'s compared to missing equal signs in c. The number of > times I've written > if (a = b) when I mean if (a == b) is the main reason I refuse to > write c programs (not even > for money). Well, 2 feet or 24 inches, I guess. As a C programmer it eventually becomes natural to be in a state of mind where you automatically use = for assignments and == for compares. You still make the error occasionally, but you (usually) realize it right away. I made this very mistake in PHP a couple days ago (tsk tsk :) > > The use of . is quite warped and utterly against high level language > > principles. (The only thing that even comes close is FORTH.) > > Well the everything is an lvalue is different, but in some ways it's > easier to explain > i := .i + 1 to new programmers than i := i + 1 where the context of i > changes (it's even worse > in FORTRAN where the syntax is i = i + 1 given that FORTRAN was > written for maths/physics types.... I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most simple-minded of people :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 15 11:27:47 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:27:47 -0400 Subject: published Computer History Museum sighting References: <42FE9445.9010105@yahoo.com><17151.29200.504676.765056@gargle.gargle.HOWL><42FF9770.nailNQM1159IF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><17151.40521.558575.455902@gargle.gargle.HOWL><0AF72E7D-C391-4C44-ABA0-50B495C98287@kerberos.davies.net.au><17152.38094.901000.964293@gargle.gargle.HOWL><126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <17152.46649.19000.81121@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <080301c5a1b6$4e4e47c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Seen in July "Nuts and Volts". Still at my local Barnes & Noble (they must be getting slow). http://www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/jul05toc.htm http://www.nutsvolts.com/toc_Pages/images/0507/8.jpg Quite a few pictures in the paper mag., in color too. John A. From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 15 11:33:25 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:33:25 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: Message-ID: <080b01c5a1b7$0fe23fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> A way to force-check putting ='s in if()'s is to switch the LHS and the RHS, like so: if ( j+1 = j) and if (callfunc() = k) won't compile, but if ( j+1 == j) and if (callfunc() == k) will. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 15 11:42:26 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:42:26 -0500 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> At 11:15 AM 8/15/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >simple-minded of people :) It's not algebra, so that'll confuse anyone who thought that computer languages might be mathematical. Huw's criticism is valid to the well-trained eye. It's an idiom that's evolved, based on the common operation of calculating a value based on a stored value and then tossing it back in a location. To wit, compare and contrast with BLISS's and C's code to add one to a memory address stored in a location. - John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 12:07:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing Message-ID: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >simple-minded of people :) > Hi Sellam I don't see what is obvious about it. When doing math in school, I always wrote i + 1 = i, which I new was false unless i happened to be infinity. Things like i + 1 =: i or i + 1 -> i make much more sense. This typical high level language format makes reading code confusing. Sometimes one reads left to right for operations while others, one has to look to the right to find the sequence and then look to the left to complete. In this simple example, there is little chance of errors but those times I've debugged errors in others code, it has often been the order of execution that somehow got messed up. Most Forth's have the concept of a VALUE that can be used as a variable. Still, = is a question not an operation. All action progresses left to right, top to bottom. Reading code for an experienced person, when good names for words are chosen, is like reading instructions for how to complete the action. I know of one case that an upper management person sent code back to the programmer and said that he must have made a mistake. It looked like he'd sent the specification for the code and not the actual program. You know you are doing the right thing with this kind of compliment. I doubt one would ever see that happen when coding in C. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 15 12:34:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:34:15 -0400 Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <0IL9003D9Y520IT3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Memory chip substitute? > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 > To: CCTalk > >All: > > I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble >crossing a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. >I have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? No, not even close. UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. Allison From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 15 12:51:05 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:51:05 -0400 Subject: Memory chip substitute? In-Reply-To: <0IL9003D9Y520IT3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001101c5a1c1$e8c2fca0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> The board is a Solid State Music MB7 16k board. I have (at least) one bad chip on it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:34 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Memory chip substitute? > >Subject: Memory chip substitute? > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 > To: CCTalk > >All: > > I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble crossing >a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. I >have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? No, not even close. UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 12:53:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:53:21 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk and some 8" images posted In-Reply-To: <0IKN00CWFDDCLJ17@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IKN00CWFDDCLJ17@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4300D691.2050400@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > In the end you will be recreating the catsweasel. If you really want to Yes, this is what Disk2FDI does (google it). It can, for example, read Amiga 800K disks on a (fast) PC using only the PC's controller. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 12:54:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <200508151754.KAA19944@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Memory chip substitute? >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 >> To: CCTalk >> >>All: >> >> I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble >>crossing a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. >>I have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? > >No, not even close. > >UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. > >What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. > > >Allison > Hi It seems like 4044 and 6044 are both 4Kx1 chips. These were used on HeathKit H8 8K memory boards. I'd suspect that they might work. The onlt source I've found is a local place called Anchor Electronics. I don't recall if they have a web page. Dwight Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 13:05:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:05:55 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050807133433.U56581@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> <20050807133433.U56581@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4300D983.7050808@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into >>>PCMCIA dlots. >> >>8-bit ISA adapters? > > > YES. > There are, or at least WERE, 8 bit ISA PCMCIA adapters. Recall any? I'm really looking for something like this. >>To clarify: I want to add "solid state" storage to a 1982 >>IBM PC rev B. machine (to see if I can get any faster I/O than the MFM drive >>hooked up here) > > That would certainly reduce the I/O bottleneck, > but 4.77 MHz will never be "fast". The speed of the CPU is irrelevant for my project; what I *do* need is a way to pump 200KB/s through the machine, and the WD 20MB MFM + controller is only giving me about 80KB-100KB. (interleave 3:1, adjusting it in either direction reduces throughput) What *is* the bus speed of a 4.77MHz 8088-based PC anyway? ie. what is the theoretical maximum amount of data per second that can go through the bus? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 15 13:11:37 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:11:37 -0600 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4300DAD9.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > simple-minded of people :) err i + 1 -> j From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 13:25:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:25:21 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4300DE11.1020603@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>Agreed, but I would KILL to be able to play modem games again -- not BBS >>games, but games for which the only method of playing against someone >>else was via modem or null-modem cable. Dan Buntin's Modem Wars comes to >>mind. Some games even let you play against players with completely >>different hardware, such as Populus (PC vs. Amiga worked), Armor Alley >>(PC vs. Macintosh worked), etc. > > Never heard of Modem Wars for some reason. Sounds intriguing. http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/modem-wars has more info. Another Dan Bunten creation. > The second was Commbat for the TRS-80 (1980). Published by Adventure > International (Scott Adams). You played against an opponent on another > TRS-80 connected by a serial (or something). The game on one machine (the > master) generated a terrain map and then transmitted the map to the other > computer. You then had to play "capture the flag". Substitute "capture the flag" with "stratego" and you've got Modem Wars. ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 13:27:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:27:45 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. >> >>That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant >>for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card >>was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. > > Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine > for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different from a contemporary serial interface card? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 13:35:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:35:40 -0500 Subject: Computer-controlled musical equipment In-Reply-To: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> References: <42FB460A.1070908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4300E07C.4040108@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > This is something we don't hear a lot about on the list. Screw computer-controlled musical equipment, I want to hear equipment-controlled musical computers! For example: http://qotile.net/dotmatrix.html has the most amazing dot matrix printer music I've ever heard. His TRS-80 disk drive experiments are also hilarious. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 15 13:35:50 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:35:50 -0500 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> References: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200508151335.50706.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 15 August 2005 13:27, Jim Leonard wrote: > Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different > from a contemporary serial interface card? Bit-banger refers to in essence, a software UART... you turn on/off the serial port line directly via software, with the appropriate timing, as opposed to using a hardware UART to do the serial<->parallel conversion. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 13:38:42 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:38:42 -0500 Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4300E132.7030105@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage > 8-bitters as instruments. I was entertained by 8-bit Weapon at a conference last year... If you'd like to hear their music and/or see them perform, download one of the files at the bottom of this page: http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,22/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Aug 15 13:45:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:45:29 +0100 Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> References: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4300E2C9.9090904@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different > from a contemporary serial interface card? The actual timing and parallel-to-serial conversion was done in software, rather than by a UART and clock generator. Gordon. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 15 13:44:31 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:44:31 -0400 (edt) Subject: Possible entertainment for VCF 8.0 In-Reply-To: <4300E132.7030105@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Aug 15, 05 01:38:42 pm Message-ID: <200508151844.OAA02372@wordstock.com> And thusly Jim Leonard spake: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I was contacted by this guy who makes music using old synths and vintage > > 8-bitters as instruments. > > I was entertained by 8-bit Weapon at a conference last year... If you'd like > to hear their music and/or see them perform, download one of the files at the > bottom of this page: http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,22/ He played at last years LUCKY Commodore expo. It was two great shows! Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 15 14:07:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:07:57 -0400 Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <0ILA008LC2H7PUDO@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> I'll have to dig, I may still have a few. They were discontinued by NEC bad around 1980. Allison > >Subject: RE: Memory chip substitute? > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:51:05 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >The board is a Solid State Music MB7 16k board. I have (at least) one bad >chip on it. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:34 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Memory chip substitute? > > >> >>Subject: Memory chip substitute? >> From: "Richard A. Cini" >> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 >> To: CCTalk >> >>All: >> >> I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble >crossing >>a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. I >>have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? > >No, not even close. > >UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. > >What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. > > >Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 15 14:09:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:09:53 -0400 Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <0ILA004UC2KFFFP8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Memory chip substitute? > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >> >>> >>>Subject: Memory chip substitute? >>> From: "Richard A. Cini" >>> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 >>> To: CCTalk >>> >>>All: >>> >>> I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble >>>crossing a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. >>>I have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? >> >>No, not even close. >> >>UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. >> >>What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. >> >> >>Allison >> > >Hi > It seems like 4044 and 6044 are both 4Kx1 chips. These >were used on HeathKit H8 8K memory boards. I'd suspect that >they might work. The onlt source I've found is a local >place called Anchor Electronics. I don't recall if they >have a web page. >Dwight Not even close. The upd410 is 18pin .6" centers. Pins are the same as TMS4060 and intel 2107 save for the 410 had a static core, the other were dynamic. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 14:11:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Analog modem emulator? Message-ID: <200508151911.MAA19964@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" > >Tony Duell wrote: >>>>Sounds like the cards were approximately contemporary. >>> >>>That's perfectly reasonable. It could be that the Serial card was meant >>>for local interfacing to serial peripherals while the Communications card >>>was meant for "high-speed" telecommunications applications. >> >> Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine >> for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I > >Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different from a >contemporary serial interface card? > Hi Jim Bit-banging usually means that there is no uart or even a shift register. There is a single bit port that the data is directly sent from the main processor. It requires that the processor produce all the bit timing. Things like clock interrupts or variable refresh would be bad( with the exception that the clock interrupt could be the timing for a fast processor ). Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 14:17:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Memory chip substitute? Message-ID: <200508151917.MAA19969@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: Memory chip substitute? >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>>From: "Allison" >>> >>>> >>>>Subject: Memory chip substitute? >>>> From: "Richard A. Cini" >>>> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:12:20 -0400 >>>> To: CCTalk >>>> >>>>All: >>>> >>>> I'm repairing a few S100 memory boards and I'm having trouble >>>>crossing a memory chip on the SSM MB7 16k board. The chip is an NEC UPD410D. >>>>I have D5101LC1's "in stock". Are these equivalent? >>> >>>No, not even close. >>> >>>UPD410 is a fairly fast semistatic 4kx1. 5101 is cmos 256x4. >>> >>>What memory board has a upd410 on it? Very unusual. >>> >>> >>>Allison >>> >> >>Hi >> It seems like 4044 and 6044 are both 4Kx1 chips. These >>were used on HeathKit H8 8K memory boards. I'd suspect that >>they might work. The onlt source I've found is a local >>place called Anchor Electronics. I don't recall if they >>have a web page. >>Dwight > >Not even close. The upd410 is 18pin .6" centers. Pins are the same as >TMS4060 and intel 2107 save for the 410 had a static core, the other were >dynamic. > > >Allison > Ahhh! 0.6 centers. Seems like I've seen these on something else I have for a KIM expansion card. I do have a NEC data book someplace with the specs on the UPD410D's. It might also include a cross reference. Some of the data books did this. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 15 15:49:01 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:49:01 -0400 Subject: Amigas are OK here, eh? ;-) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> Yea, the subject line is "baited," but technically, the machine's offtopic... I have an Amiga 4000T now (built in January 1998!) with a "standard" VGA card (It's got an S3 Virge chipset), 2G SCSI HD, CD-ROM reader & not much else. I'm thinking of setting this machine up for the kids as a 'game' machine but as it doesn't have ethernet, I'm not sure how easy that may be. I also don't have any install disks or anything, so I don't want to do too much to it, have it b0rk, and have no way of restoring/reformatting. [[ I also don't know much at all about Amigas, other than the fact I really drooled over them & the Atari ST's when I couldn't afford 'em... ;-) ]] Here's the stats on the box: Version 3.1 ROM, Kickstart Version 40.70 Workbench version 45.1 (I think this is AmigaOS 3.5...) 1,969,472 bytes Graphics Mem 11,534,728 bytes 'other' Mem Multiview, 44.15 (6-6-2000) It's got a 68040 in it, but IIRC, it's a 25Mhz. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I don't have the coin for one of those Zorro <-> PCI thingamabobs on ePay, and the last few searches I did didn't bring about much for an ethernet adapter[1], so I'm guessing the best way to get info on the machine would be via the CD-ROM drive and CD-R's. I think I could also compile a custom Linux kernel that allow read/write access to an Amiga-formatted HD, but I've never done it, so I don't really know for sure. I have a few questions: 1) Was there ever a version of OS-9/68K that ran on Amiga hardware? I know there was one that ran on the Atari ST series... 2) Would I be best off to just buy the latest available version of AmigaOS (for dox, media, etc.) or should I search/wait/etc. for it? It easily meets the 'minimum' install requirements for AmigaOS3.9, and is still better than the "for improved usability" specs... 3) I have access to a SCSI CD-R/RW burner - Is this machine capable of burning CDs (even at 1x - I'm not in a hurry... ;-) at all? That could help me making backups in case of a disaster... 4) Anything else I forgot to ask about??? ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Admittedly, I haven't searched my brains out for one... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 15 15:12:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:12:29 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: References: <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200508122127.j7CLRcpj031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050815151229.0fc71be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:51 PM 8/12/05 -0600, you wrote: >On 8/12/05, Brad Parker wrote: >> Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? > >I do not know of a master list online. > >> My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and >> out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than >> damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. > >It takes a bit of force to get hex cards in a nearly-unused backplane. > I've bent latches trying to get boards in. I've had similar trouble with the HP 1000 boards. I found that if I clean the edge connectors and them wipe them with a rag slightly dampened with WD-40 (mostly kerosene, a light oil) that the cards go in and out much easier and I have a lot less intermitant contacts. I believe the oil coating also helps reduce oxidation of the contacts. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 15 16:47:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:47:15 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050815164715.41afd290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> LOL! Anybody need an HP >>TERMINAL< Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 15 16:26:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:26:15 Subject: Metier Artemis 4200? In-Reply-To: <1124035618.12011.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050815162615.0f677b3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi, I've got a HP 1000 (E Series IIRC) that's marked as a Metier Artemis system but I don't remember if it has a model number or not. I got it from of of the Charlie Bell auctions a couple of years ago. Charlie worked at Kennedy space Center for MANY years and had a huge collection of space artifacts including things like John Glenn's original space suit and TWO Atlas rockets! I've left this HP 1000 intact and haven't taken it apart to see what's in it but I think I do have some manuals for it's software. IIRC it was used as an accounting system, project management or some such. There's no mention of RTE or any other HP Operating System so it must have used custom software. I haven't taken this one apart to examine it but IIRC it looks pretty standard except for the name on it. Joe At 04:06 PM 8/14/05 +0000, you wrote: > >Anyone know anything about these critters? From what I've gleaned from >the web the hardware's just rebadged HP kit, and the software's all >related to project management (personal yawn!). > >Just wondered if there was anything oddball about the hardware that >makes it particularly worth saving... > >cheers > >Jules > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 15 16:06:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amigas are OK here, eh? ;-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 15, 2005 04:49:01 PM Message-ID: <200508152106.j7FL6QIZ017395@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yea, the subject line is "baited," but technically, the machine's > offtopic... I have an Amiga 4000T now (built in January 1998!) with a OK, I for one am green with envy! Though I was afraid you were going to tell us you were lucky enough to get an AmigaOne. > "standard" VGA card (It's got an S3 Virge chipset), 2G SCSI HD, CD-ROM > reader & not much else. Which video card is it? Is it a Picasso IV, or something else? Based on the age of the machine I'd tend to guess a Picasso IV. > 1,969,472 bytes Graphics Mem > 11,534,728 bytes 'other' Mem Little short on RAM. I don't remember what the options are for expanding the RAM on an A4000. > It's got a 68040 in it, but IIRC, it's a 25Mhz. OK, since I've only got a 68030/16 in my A3000 I'm still envious, but I'd have expected this to have a 68060. > I don't have the coin for one of those Zorro <-> PCI thingamabobs on ePay, > and the last few searches I did didn't bring about much for an ethernet > adapter[1], so I'm guessing the best way to get info on the machine would > be via the CD-ROM drive and CD-R's. I think I could also compile a custom > Linux kernel that allow read/write access to an Amiga-formatted HD, but > I've never done it, so I don't really know for sure. Might be easiest to go Serial. You might even be able to get SLIP or PPP running between the Amiga and Linux box. BTW, about the time your system was built an ethernet card would have cost about $200, IIRC. At least I think that's how much my 10Base2 card cost me. > I have a few questions: > > 1) Was there ever a version of OS-9/68K that ran on Amiga hardware? I know > there was one that ran on the Atari ST series... No idea. > 2) Would I be best off to just buy the latest available version of AmigaOS > (for dox, media, etc.) or should I search/wait/etc. for it? It easily meets > the 'minimum' install requirements for AmigaOS3.9, and is still better than > the "for improved usability" specs... You might as well buy a copy of Amiga OS 3.9, though I can't comment on the differences between 3.5 and 3.9, as I don't think I've ever even seen 3.5 running. My A3000 runs 3.9. > 3) I have access to a SCSI CD-R/RW burner - Is this machine capable of > burning CDs (even at 1x - I'm not in a hurry... ;-) at all? That could help > me making backups in case of a disaster... Yes, but does it have a SCSI adapter? IIRC, a stock A4000 uses IDE. > 4) Anything else I forgot to ask about??? ;-) My address so you can ship it to me :^) After all you don't really want to mess with an A4000T :^) Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 16:09:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer Message-ID: <200508152109.OAA20046@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > LOL! Anybody need an HP >>TERMINAL<5230070472QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > Joe > > Hi I'm dreaming but just as I reach for the keyboard, I wake up in a cold sweet. What does that mean? Dwight From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Mon Aug 15 16:21:26 2005 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:21:26 -0600 Subject: HP 1610A question In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050808004024.02eebbb0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050807143957.02ec14a0@pop.xs4all.nl> <6.2.3.4.0.20050808004024.02eebbb0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <43010756.9010604@yahoo.com> Unless my memory is totally gone, I believe hp purchased the same tube for the 1610 that is used in the hp 264x terminals, so that would be another source, though you would hardly want to destroy an HP terminal to save a old hp logic analyzer (I should say _I_ wouldn't recommend that...) I also recall a rather lengthy thread in classiccmp about cleaning mold of the inside of HP terminal tubes -- that may apply here also... -- Bill Stefan wrote: > Well its hard to explain precisely but there is stuff on the inside on > the glass, I think it has been wet. > I was expecting a bit of a mess inside but its actually just fine > inside, everything still nice and shiny (well almost anyway :P ) Ton > >> Tony wrote: > >> > I just got a HP 1610 Logic Analyzer and although its in good shape >> > the monitor is clearly very dead. >> >> Why is it 'clearly very dead'? Can it definitely not be repaired? >> >> -tony > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 15 16:23:03 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:23:03 +0100 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508152109.OAA20046@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200508152132.j7FLWoAc079800@keith.ezwind.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >From: "Joe R." >> >> LOL! Anybody need an HP >>TERMINAL<>>itemZ >>5230070472QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> >> >> Joe >> >> > >Hi > I'm dreaming but just as I reach for the keyboard, I wake up in a cold sweet. What does that mean? It means that either: A) the custard went cold while you were asleep. Microwave the sweet until warm, then consume B) Your sweet is supposed to be cold. Eat & enjoy. Don't fall asleep in it, as it will spoil the texture. HTH, Ade. PS: Ironically, I *do* need an HP terminal.... To get my A700 running! Unfortunately, being 3000 miles the wrong side of a big lump of water kind of prevents me from bidding for the "dream computer" of the subject... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 16:28:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer Message-ID: <200508152128.OAA20069@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was going to correct that spelling but I got distracted by work. I just sent it without doing so. In any case, things like Jell-O are bad to wake in. Dwight >From: "Ade Vickers" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>From: "Joe R." >>> >>> LOL! Anybody need an HP >>TERMINAL<>>>>itemZ >>>5230070472QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >> >>Hi >> I'm dreaming but just as I reach for the keyboard, I wake up in a cold >sweet. What does that mean? > >It means that either: > >A) the custard went cold while you were asleep. Microwave the sweet until >warm, then consume >B) Your sweet is supposed to be cold. Eat & enjoy. Don't fall asleep in it, >as it will spoil the texture. > > >HTH, >Ade. > > >PS: Ironically, I *do* need an HP terminal.... To get my A700 running! >Unfortunately, being 3000 miles the wrong side of a big lump of water kind >of prevents me from bidding for the "dream computer" of the subject... > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 16:31:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus backplane list? Message-ID: <200508152131.OAA20073@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 03:51 PM 8/12/05 -0600, you wrote: >>On 8/12/05, Brad Parker wrote: >>> Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? >> >>I do not know of a master list online. >> >>> My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and >>> out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than >>> damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. >> >>It takes a bit of force to get hex cards in a nearly-unused backplane. >> I've bent latches trying to get boards in. > > I've had similar trouble with the HP 1000 boards. I found that if I >clean the edge connectors and them wipe them with a rag slightly dampened >with WD-40 (mostly kerosene, a light oil) that the cards go in and out much >easier and I have a lot less intermitant contacts. I believe the oil >coating also helps reduce oxidation of the contacts. > > Joe Hi From what I've been told, WD-40 contains both silicon and petrolium oils. I prefer using silicon grease for this purpose. Past experiments with petrolium oil and grease showed that the contact resistance increased on clean contacts while the silicon grease showed a significant drop in resistance. I recommend Dow-Cornings, DC-4. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 15 18:10:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:10:43 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508152109.OAA20046@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050815181043.19bf2c18@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:09 PM 8/15/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >> LOL! Anybody need an HP >>TERMINAL<>>5230070472QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> >> >> Joe >> >> > >Hi > I'm dreaming but just as I reach for the keyboard, >I wake up in a cold sweet. What does that mean? I suspect that it means that you actually want to USE the thing! FWIW I think I have a keyboard for a 2649 here. It's missing some keytops and I picked it up for spare parts but if some REALLY needs it I might be persauded to part with it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 15 18:16:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:16:39 Subject: unibus backplane list? In-Reply-To: <200508152131.OAA20073@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050815181639.1a87057e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:31 PM 8/15/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >>At 03:51 PM 8/12/05 -0600, you wrote: >>>On 8/12/05, Brad Parker wrote: >>>> Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? >>> >>>I do not know of a master list online. >>> >>>> My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and >>>> out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than >>>> damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. >>> >>>It takes a bit of force to get hex cards in a nearly-unused backplane. >>> I've bent latches trying to get boards in. >> >> I've had similar trouble with the HP 1000 boards. I found that if I >>clean the edge connectors and them wipe them with a rag slightly dampened >>with WD-40 (mostly kerosene, a light oil) that the cards go in and out much >>easier and I have a lot less intermitant contacts. I believe the oil >>coating also helps reduce oxidation of the contacts. >> >> Joe > >Hi > From what I've been told, WD-40 contains both silicon and >petrolium oils. I prefer using silicon grease for this purpose. >Past experiments with petrolium oil and grease showed that the >contact resistance increased on clean contacts while the >silicon grease showed a significant drop in resistance. > I recommend Dow-Cornings, DC-4. Does DC-4 lower the force required to insert and remove the board? Where can you get it? Any idea how much WD-40 increases the contact resistance? Even if it does increase the resistance it has cured many of problems that I've had with the 1000s so it seems to do more good than harm. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 15 17:33:33 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus backplane list? Message-ID: <200508152233.PAA20135@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 02:31 PM 8/15/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>From: "Joe R." >>> >>>At 03:51 PM 8/12/05 -0600, you wrote: >>>>On 8/12/05, Brad Parker wrote: >>>>> Is there a list of the various pdp-11 unibus backplanes anywhere? >>>> >>>>I do not know of a master list online. >>>> >>>>> My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and >>>>> out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than >>>>> damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. >>>> >>>>It takes a bit of force to get hex cards in a nearly-unused backplane. >>>> I've bent latches trying to get boards in. >>> >>> I've had similar trouble with the HP 1000 boards. I found that if I >>>clean the edge connectors and them wipe them with a rag slightly dampened >>>with WD-40 (mostly kerosene, a light oil) that the cards go in and out much >>>easier and I have a lot less intermitant contacts. I believe the oil >>>coating also helps reduce oxidation of the contacts. >>> >>> Joe >> >>Hi >> From what I've been told, WD-40 contains both silicon and >>petrolium oils. I prefer using silicon grease for this purpose. >>Past experiments with petrolium oil and grease showed that the >>contact resistance increased on clean contacts while the >>silicon grease showed a significant drop in resistance. >> I recommend Dow-Cornings, DC-4. > > Does DC-4 lower the force required to insert and remove the board? Where >can you get it? Any idea how much WD-40 increases the contact resistance? >Even if it does increase the resistance it has cured many of problems that >I've had with the 1000s so it seems to do more good than harm. > > Joe Hi Joe Most any electrical supply shop has it or can get it. McMaster-Carr list it as well. The measurements were done with petrolium grease but I forget which one. We'd see a normal 10 milli-ohm contact go as high as 20-30 milli-ohms. The silicon grease would usually take a 10 milli-ohm dry contact and reduce it to around 2.5 milli-ohms ( close to our measurement limit, using a 4 point DVM ). These were typical gold-gold edge connectors. It does reduce the force required but not as much as the petrolium grease did. I'd suspect that it might be similar to the wd40, being a lighter oil. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 16:56:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:56:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <4300DEA1.4060005@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Aug 15, 5 01:27:45 pm Message-ID: > > Yes. The bit-banger is fairly usless for serial input, although it's fine > > for output. I suspect it was mainly used for driving a serial printer (I > > Can someone clarify what "bit-banger" means and why it was different from a > contemporary serial interface card? 'Bit banging' is a common term for doing the serial<->parallel conversion in software (using shift instructions, etc) rather than using a hardware UART (or ACIA, etc) chip. It doesn't necessarily only refer to RS232 interfaces, it's quite common to say something like "I'm bit-banging the I2C protocoi on a couple of the port A pins of that PIC". The bit-banger that I refered to here is whichever of the Apple cards didn't use a UART chip. There seem to be 2 approximately contemporary cards, and I am sure to get them the wrong way round, but here goes : The Serial Interface, which contained a few TTL chips, and a couple of PROMs. This is the one I call the bit-banger The Coommunication card which contains a 6850 ACIA (similar to a UART). -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 15 18:31:50 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:50 -0500 Subject: unibus backplane list? References: <3.0.6.16.20050815181639.1a87057e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000f01c5a1f1$838503d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... >>>>> My 11/44 has a DD11-DF in it which is impossible to get cards into and >>>>> out of. It's like something is physcally wrong with it. Rather than >>>>> damage any cards I thought I'd replace it. That's not totally uncommon, many of my DEC machines exhibit this even after much care in the backplane restoration. Non-Hex Unibus cards also seem to rock back and forth slightly in the slots, something I think is not good design. Someone else wrote... >>> I've had similar trouble with the HP 1000 boards. Now that's unusual, at least to me. There's been quite a large number of HP 1000's make it in and out of my place. I can only think of one or two that had problems like this and the problem was normally 3rd party cards. > I found that if I >>>clean the edge connectors and them wipe them with a rag slightly dampened >>>with WD-40 (mostly kerosene, a light oil) that the cards go in and out >>>much >>>easier and I have a lot less intermitant contacts. I believe the oil >>>coating also helps reduce oxidation of the contacts. Ugg... I wouldn't suggest WD-40. It's not helpful to some other things commonly on circuit cards. Please please please buy a can of Caig Pro-Gold for use on gold edge cards and directly on gold pin backplanes. I promise you'll be extremely happy with the results which are both instantaneous, extremely effective, and last a long long time. Jay West From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Aug 15 19:14:08 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:14:08 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 16/08/2005, at 3:07 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Things like i + 1 =: i or i + 1 -> i make much more > sense. This typical high level language format makes > reading code confusing. Sometimes one reads left to > right for operations while others, one has to look to > the right to find the sequence and then look to the > left to complete. I've always wondered why the form i + 1 -> i never took off. I recall at least one programming language I looked at (can't remember the name right now but it was in a book on compiler writing) that did it this way. Not only is this more natural but it'd have been much easier to explain to those pesky first year University Maths students I had to teach programming to. > I know of one case that an upper management person > sent code back to the programmer and said that he > must have made a mistake. It looked like he'd sent > the specification for the code and not the actual > program. You know you are doing the right thing > with this kind of compliment. I doubt one would ever > see that happen when coding in C. I don't like c very much but I do appreciate that it's really a high- level assembler and for it's time it's not too bad - although I don't think it's much of an improvement on BCPL. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Aug 15 19:33:47 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:33:47 -0500 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508152128.OAA20069@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815193302.00bf9ea8@localhost> At 02:28 PM 8/15/2005 -0700, you wrote: >I was going to correct that spelling but >I got distracted by work. I just sent it without >doing so. In any case, things like Jell-O are >bad to wake in. That would rather depend on how you came to be asleep in it... and with whom... [Tact] To have the reputation of possessing the most perfect social tact, talk to every woman as if you loved her, and to every man as if he bored you. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 15 19:52:11 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:52:11 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <430138BB.nailC651TPL4S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I've always wondered why the form i + 1 -> i never took off. I recall > at least one programming language I looked at that did it this way. It's the other way around, but in early ASCII standards where we now have underbar was instead back-arrow. (And instead of caret there was up-arrow). I think the intention was to use it as an assignment operator. Several of the Model 33 TTY's I've gone through over the years had the "Early" ASCII character assignments (and had a slashed letter O and an unslashed number 0). Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 15 20:04:24 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <4300D983.7050808@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> <20050807133433.U56581@shell.lmi.net> <4300D983.7050808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050815174715.O62263@shell.lmi.net> > >>>There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into > >>>PCMCIA dlots. > > There are, or at least WERE, 8 bit ISA PCMCIA adapters. On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Recall any? I'm really looking for something like this. I YOUSTA have an 8 bit ISA card with a PCMCIA slot on the back. There was also an ISA card with a cable to a PCMCIA slot in a holder that mounted in place of a 3.5" drive. ISTR the name as being something like "DataBook Thin Card Drive". The machine that it's in is not very conveniently accessible, but I might be able to get at it in a few weeks. If so, I'll dig it out, and confirm what it is. One of the San Jose surplus places (Halted? Haltek? HSC?) used to carry them, 15? years ago. There were also some IDE PCMCIA interfaces. Dunno whether an 8 bit IDE card would work with one of those. > > That would certainly reduce the I/O bottleneck, > > but 4.77 MHz will never be "fast". > The speed of the CPU is irrelevant for my project; what I *do* need is a way to > pump 200KB/s through the machine, and the WD 20MB MFM + controller is only > giving me about 80KB-100KB. (interleave 3:1, adjusting it in either direction > reduces throughput) I remember some 16 bit ISA disk controllers that claimed to be able to maintain a 1:1 interleave, but no 8 bit ones. IIRC, Speedstor or Spinrite would do a test of different interleaves to try to find the optimum. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Aug 15 20:05:50 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:05:50 -0700 Subject: Bit Banger was Analog modem emulator? References: <200508152219.j7FMJpeJ081847@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001e01c5a1fe$ad9c6480$0300a8c0@downstairs2> An early example of a bit banger serial interface was the Motorola 6800 MIKBUG Monitor ROM. It used a parallel interface chip (MC6820 PIA) as a bidirectional serial interface. It would work at 110 and 300 baud (some people clocked it at 1200 baud.) This was the used in original (1975) Southwest Technical Products 6800 computer. Motorola had a real UART (MC6850 ACIA) at the time so I don't know why Motorola did this. SWTPC later switched the their own Monitor ROM and a MC6850 serial port. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/swtpc_6800.htm Michael Holley From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 15 20:15:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:15:56 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: <20050815174715.O62263@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050804150123.01bd8ad8@mail.30below.com> <42F31AD0.4040009@oldskool.org> <20050805145830.D27655@shell.lmi.net> <42F5A7D1.30608@oldskool.org> <20050807133433.U56581@shell.lmi.net> <4300D983.7050808@oldskool.org> <20050815174715.O62263@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43013E4C.9090102@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > I might be able to get at it in a few weeks. If so, I'll dig it > out, and confirm what it is. Thanks very much. > IIRC, Speedstor or Spinrite would do a test of different interleaves to > try to find the optimum. That's how I arrived at the 3:1 interleave :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 15 20:38:19 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> Message-ID: <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> > >I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > >simple-minded of people :) On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, John Foust wrote: > It's not algebra, so that'll confuse anyone who thought that > computer languages might be mathematical. Huw's criticism is > valid to the well-trained eye. It's an idiom that's evolved, > based on the common operation of calculating a value based on > a stored value and then tossing it back in a location. It certainly is NOT algebra! In algebra, N = 0 N = N + 1 would be an inductive proof that all integers are equal. That would cause an immediate cessation of the universe as we know it (and replacement with something even weirder?) Therefore, NEVER show that to a mathematician. The difference between equality and assignment can be a tough one for beginning programmers to master. It would make life easier to use the left arrow, as APL does, instead of the "equals sign" for assignment. ... or the N := N + 1, or MOV N, N + 1 , or even the LET N = N + 1 , as used by Kurtz and Kemeny in their early versions of BASIC. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 15 20:44:41 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:44:41 -0500 Subject: Bit Banger was Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:05:50 -0700 . <001e01c5a1fe$ad9c6480$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <20050816014613.DBPI3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <001e01c5a1fe$ad9c6480$0300a8c0 at downstairs2>, "Michael Holley" write s: >An early example of a bit banger serial interface was the Motorola 6800 >MIKBUG Monitor ROM. It used a parallel interface chip (MC6820 PIA) as a >bidirectional serial interface. It would work at 110 and 300 baud (some >people clocked it at 1200 baud.) That reminds me or another little machine from Motorola. They called it the Educator II (and was the first computer I ever owned). Their cassette interface worked pretty much the same way. They toggled a pin on the PIA in software for a simple FM encoding at 110 baud. Even the receive side was software. Brian L. Stuart From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 4 19:05:04 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:05:04 -0400 Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question Message-ID: <01C5993A.D3FDB6A0@H82.C223.tor.velocet.net> ------------Original Message(s): Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:57:16 +0200 From: Jochen Kunz Subject: Re: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:34:17 -0500 "Pete Bartusek" wrote: > With the reverse telnet concept, that would work if I could change my > computer's modem pool to external serial devices (get rid of the > analog). I can't do that yet.. Get a terminal server with "reverse telnet" capability that rises DTR on the serial port if someone telnets to the corresponding TCP port. [1] Get modems with "dial on DTR" function and connect them to the serial ports of the terminal server. E.g. my old US Robotics Courier can do this. Get an old analog PBX. Connect your BBS system and the modems hanging from the terminal server to it. Programm terminal server and modems, setup PBX. Done. If someone opens a telnet session to a port of the terminal server the modem "dial out" is triggered by the DTR signal. The modem dials the number stored in its NVRAM. The PBX connects the modem to a line of your BBS system. The BBS systems gets an incomming call... CONNECT! :-) [1] My terminal server does this. I use the DTR signals to control solid state relais. That way I can remote power cycle the machine thats console is connected to the corresponding serial port. ------------------Reply: Re [1]: What a neat idea! Back in the days when I was actually using my Cromemco systems, I did the same thing in order to work on several Cromemcos (and a PC controlling & monitoring the heating system) in the basement from the PC on my desk upstairs; however, I used the remote PC to turn power to the Cromemcos on and off (and I used _REAL_ relays :), never thought of using DTR. Mind you, I also used remote reset quite often; thoughtful of Cromemco to provide a phone jack on the back panel for that purpose. But wouldn't DTR get dropped when you select another system and shut down the previous one, or do you only have one running at a time? BTW, Howard Harte apparently has a Cromemco System1 set up to be powered up and accessed via the Internet, but I've never gotten his to come up; has anybody here ever tried it and succeeded? mike From Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com Thu Aug 4 13:04:50 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:04:50 -0400 Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request Message-ID: I did finally get it figured out. keyboard codes changed from the 9825 to the 9826. The keycode table has a small footnote at the bottom that states "Lower 8 bits of 9826 keycode only". They gave an example on page 4-10 of the HPL Operating Manual 09826-90040. Keycode for "5" on 9825 is 83. On the 9836, the same key has keycode 2885. On both computers, the ASCII code is 53. The Keycode table lists 45 Hex for the 9826. 2885 = b45 Hex. Strip off MSD b to convert then look up in the table. The code snip below calls a lookup table to do the keycode conversion of 9826 keycodes for the 9825 HPL code running on my 9826. S.R. "Hutch" Hutchins |---------+-----------------------------> | | "Joe R." | | | | | | Sent by: | | | cctech-bounces at cla| | | ssiccmp.org | | | | | | | | | 08/02/2005 05:36 | | | AM | | | Please respond to | | | "General | | | Discussion: | | | On-Topic Posts | | | Only" | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | | cc: | | Subject: Re: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| At 08:37 AM 8/1/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >when he gets them scanned, where will they end up? Bitsavers of course! > > Question on HPL, for anyone willing to help, >The following line of code gets a value from the keyboard buffer. I looked >in HPL Operating Manual 98614-90010 manual for keycode conversion table ( >page B-3) and it only goes to 255. Where do I find out what these >2874,2873...ect values are , with respect to the keyboard buffer? I have no idea. I've never used those functions. Just as a guess I check and see if it performs a MOD function to any out of range values. Joe > >65: "kbd":pbeep 2460,.05;key}K;if K=2874 or K=2873;1}Z;kret >66: if K=2867;1}Z}W;kret >67: if K>=2896 and K<=2906;gto "char" >68: if K>=2916 and K<=2941;gto "char" >69: if K>=2788 and K<=2813;gto "char" >70: if K=2782;gto "char" >71: if K=2862;if T>0;" "}V$[T,T];T-1}T;gto "kret" >72: if K=2845;aclr ;gclr;tabxy 61,17;prt "(RAM) HPL 2.1 Ready";stp ;end >73: gto "kret" >74: >75: "kret":V$[1,16]}T$[1];kret >76: >77: "char":if D=0;1}S;if T<16;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" >78: if D>0 and D<5;if T<6;T+1}T;char(asc K)}V$[T,T];gto "kret" >79: gto "kret" > > > > > >|---------+-----------------------------> >| | "Joe R." | >| | | | m> | >| | Sent by: | >| | cctech-bounces at cla| >| | ssiccmp.org | >| | | >| | | >| | 07/30/2005 10:19 | >| | AM | >| | Please respond to | >| | "General | >| | Discussion: | >| | On-Topic Posts | >| | Only" | >| | | >|---------+-----------------------------> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------| > | | > | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | > | cc: | > | Subject: HP 9825 computer/calculator manuals & Re: HPL manual request | > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------| > > > > > Oops! I forgot to add that HP refers the HPL users to the HP 9825 >Calculator manual for more details on HPL. There's an auction of E-bay >right now for a set of HP 9825 manuals. That's what reminded me about the >referral. > > >QcategoryZ16210QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> > > > Joe > > > >At 09:58 AM 7/27/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >> >>I was able to find HPL Operating Manual and Programming Update >>(09826-90040) on bitsavers website. I have HPL Operating Manual >>(98614-90010). Does anyone know if HPL Condensed Reference (98614-90020) >>is archived anywhere? Is there any other references available for HPL 2.1? >> >>Hutch > > I just finished packing a BUNCH of HP manuals and shipping them to Al to >be scanned and archived. In the pile are several HPL manuals, a manual for >BTL (Board Test Language, a variation of HPL that was used on the 3060 >circuit card test station) and a photocopy of the HPL Condensed Reference >Manual. > > Joe > > > > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Aug 4 15:17:02 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:17:02 -0500 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508042026.j74KQU0a053905@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Yes, the DEC RK03 is the high density Diablo model 30. > > > 2.5 MB removable cartridge disk with a stepping motor for the head > > positioning. I can take pictures if this is not sufficient. > These were > > used > > Are you sure about that? Nope. I am a software guy. Just a bad assumption on my part. I just knew it was not the voice coil tyoe that I had seem on larger drives. > The model 30 I know used a permanent > magnet brush motor for the head postiioner, with a rack and > pinion mechanism to actually move the heads. Feedback came > from a couple of PCBs on top of the motor spindle, the tracks > of which effectively formed transformers. > > -tony > From Allan_Rasmussen at mail.dk Thu Aug 4 15:21:48 2005 From: Allan_Rasmussen at mail.dk (Allan Rasmussen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:21:48 +0200 Subject: JetDirect EX print server Message-ID: Hi chris. Did you get any manual for the printer server j2382. ? I have 2 unit and can't get them to recive a ip in the bootp procedure at start up. Mybe I have to bye some new one. :-( Allan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.1/64 - Release Date: 2005-08-04 From korpela at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 17:44:55 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:44:55 -0700 Subject: MO drives In-Reply-To: <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> References: <20050802053153.96891.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 8/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > A while back there was talk about the life of CDR's for archives, how do > Magnetic Optical Disks (MO) work for archives? > > I recently got my hands on a 1.3GB 5.25" Olypus MO Unit with about 100 > Cartridges (40+ never used, all Rewritable) and was thinking of backing up > my older files (Amiga , 68K Mac etc) to this media. The hard case seems like > it would take care of one major media killer (scratches). I would caution against using anything unusual. The big problem is that if (more like when) your MO unit fails, you'll need to obtain another one to retrieve your files. I'm helping out someone who used Seagate BackupExec under Windows 95 to back up to CD-R and has found out that newer versions of (now Veritas) BackupExec don't recognize CD-R as a potential restore source, and, of course, BackupExec for Windows NT of the save vintage can't uncompress the Windows 95 media, and BackupExec for Window 95 won't run under XP). Your best bet is to pick a media and a format that won't die for the forseeable future and for which readers/writers will be available. Current pick for media for backing up static files is IDE hard drives. They are cheap (<$0.50/GB), reliable enough (if you are willing to go double redundant or better), high capacity, and compatible with the vast majority of currently available machines without requiring additional hardware. Sure you'll need to transfer to other media (SATA or what follows SATA) in a few years, but you really need to do that with all common media currently available. Although I was wondering about encoding data using DVD+-RW drives that will burn labels into the top of the disk. Sure, the density would be low, but it's probably more durable than the DVD itself :). Eric From korpela at gmail.com Thu Aug 4 17:44:55 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:44:55 -0700 Subject: MO drives In-Reply-To: <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> References: <20050802053153.96891.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <00eb01c59728$48cda590$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 8/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > A while back there was talk about the life of CDR's for archives, how do > Magnetic Optical Disks (MO) work for archives? > > I recently got my hands on a 1.3GB 5.25" Olypus MO Unit with about 100 > Cartridges (40+ never used, all Rewritable) and was thinking of backing up > my older files (Amiga , 68K Mac etc) to this media. The hard case seems like > it would take care of one major media killer (scratches). I would caution against using anything unusual. The big problem is that if (more like when) your MO unit fails, you'll need to obtain another one to retrieve your files. I'm helping out someone who used Seagate BackupExec under Windows 95 to back up to CD-R and has found out that newer versions of (now Veritas) BackupExec don't recognize CD-R as a potential restore source, and, of course, BackupExec for Windows NT of the save vintage can't uncompress the Windows 95 media, and BackupExec for Window 95 won't run under XP). Your best bet is to pick a media and a format that won't die for the forseeable future and for which readers/writers will be available. Current pick for media for backing up static files is IDE hard drives. They are cheap (<$0.50/GB), reliable enough (if you are willing to go double redundant or better), high capacity, and compatible with the vast majority of currently available machines without requiring additional hardware. Sure you'll need to transfer to other media (SATA or what follows SATA) in a few years, but you really need to do that with all common media currently available. Although I was wondering about encoding data using DVD+-RW drives that will burn labels into the top of the disk. Sure, the density would be low, but it's probably more durable than the DVD itself :). Eric From nick at computer-history.org Thu Aug 4 18:09:20 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (Nick Miller) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:09:20 -0500 Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer References: <42F2636C.8040009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <012901c59949$8bfaa9d0$7a00a8c0@Millers> >I liked Fire in the Valley for what it was at the time, I bought the 1st >edition when it first came out. Apple Confidential was a fun read. > > > > Curt > These were both very interesting. I also enjoyed Michael Tomczyk's "The Home Computer Wars". It may be difficult to find a copy though. Nick From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Aug 4 22:30:24 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:30:24 -0500 Subject: Disk drive parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508050339.j753dr03058032@keith.ezwind.net> That little terminator card sounds right. IIRC the drives daisy chain together. The cable from the Four-Phase end would be proprietary. They tended to use an edge connector for I/O - often 44 pins. The daisy chain cables are those V.35 looking connectors - what we used to call a Winchester. I probably have some of those. I guess they were pretty standard in the disk world. I may have the PS. Can't imagine why I would have pitched that. Can't recall if it was a Diablo unit as well, but it seems like it was. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 6:27 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Disk drive parts > > > The RK05 uses a DEC backplane > > >block internally, with genuine Unibus cables (RK11D) or a > DEC-style > > >paddle connector and 40-pin ribbon cables (RKV11D, RK8E). > > >_Electrically_ the Diablo 30 should be the same as a real > RK05, but > > >mechanically, the cables are entirely different. > > > > Yeah that was an unplesant surprise! > > Althoguh if you get a real Diablo cable, it has the connector > mounted on a little PCB, with a trasnistion connector and > then a length of ribbon cable on that. If you take off one > end, the wires are in almost the right ordser to solder to a > DEC 'unibus' cable board to link to the RK11-C or whatever. I > wonder why :-) > > > > > BTW I found out that the d30 uses an external power supply. Does > > anyone have the specs or pinout for it or even an extra PSU? > > I thought the manuals were on bitsavers. The PSU pinout > should be in there. There were 2 PSUs from Diablo, one using > a transsitorised regulator, the other using a ferroresonant > trasnformer. DEC also made their own PSU (H734 or something) > for these drives. > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > >The drive chain also needs to be terminated. In the case > of an RK05, > > >it's an M930 Unibus terminator in the last drive. Not sure about a > > >Diablo 30, unless you hang a real M930 off of one of those cable > > The Diablo terminator is a PCB stuffed with resistors soldered to the > connector. There's a +5V pin on the connector to power the > terminator, of > course. I have _one_ of them, I also have 2 drives and the > interconnecting cables, so it's not up for grabs. > > -tony > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Aug 4 23:12:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 23:12:17 -0500 Subject: Nice day today In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508050421.j754LkaP058426@keith.ezwind.net> Had a nice day today. Dropped by the Surplus department. They keep an eye out for stuff for me. If it's old enough I can usually get it at no "cost". They had a nice TI PRO Basic Comp with the monitor, a couple of Rockwell 8315s that I have not identified yet, an IBM 3274 and an Intel Intellec MDS, complete with dual 8" floppy and a PROM burner. Probably no software or docs. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Fri Aug 5 13:58:20 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:58:20 -0500 Subject: Need cheap QBus pertec tape control. Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F8D0BE5@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi Everyone, I'm in need of a QBUS tape controller for a Pertec drive that does at least 1600BPI. Looking to pay ~$15 for it, as that's about all I can afford. Email me if you think you can help me out ;) Julian From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Fri Aug 5 14:47:32 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:47:32 -0500 Subject: Drives and UC07 Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F8D0C48@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I'm trying to set up a drive to work on my recently-acquired UC07 SCSI controller. It's in a PDP 11/23 PLUS. So far I have tried 3 drives: Seagate ST32105N, 2.15GB DEC RH31K-AW (Quantum, unknown model), 1.07GB Quantum LP105S, 105MB Here are the results: Seagate disk: Recognized, fails firmware format DEC disk: Recognized, seems to format successfully in firmware, fails RSTS/E DSKINT Quantum disk: Works fine, no problems. So I know my controller is working. All I really want to do is have about 500MB available to manipulate. I tested with the 100MB disk so I could make sure it worked. I have a second related question - What are the MEDIA IDs for? i.e. 0-RA81, 1 - RA82, 3 - RA90, 4 - RA91, 5 - RA92, 6 - RD54. The only place I see this doing anything is in HARDWR LIST, and it will show whatever media ID you pick. If I could get the space/functionality of an RA81 or 82 on this machine, that would be great. Can someone help me out? Thanks Julian . From korpela at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 19:20:32 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:20:32 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050802024815.25554.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <42EEDA15.1010604@jcwren.com> <20050802024815.25554.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/1/05, steve wrote: > I couldn't find anything either. A year or so ago I > talked to both Robert Nielsen (apparently the > original owner of the seven Kenbaks) and John > Blankenbaker himself, both were totally uninterested > in providing me with any information whatsoever. I > guess its in the "vault":( > Yep, In Robert Nielsen's article he says that he has no intention of making the documents or schematics available. I assume that's because that would allow someone to recreate the machine and prevent Nielsen from protecting the machine. "The only way I can protect the Kenbak-1s, is "sell" them for a substantial price." He does say that he would reproduce them for people buying is machines. Yep, the only way to protect these machines is to prevent information about them from being available to the public. No doubt those paying ultra-inflated prices will agree with that sentiment. It's all about the Benjamins.... :( From EulaandB at aol.com Sun Aug 7 17:08:41 2005 From: EulaandB at aol.com (EulaandB at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:08:41 EDT Subject: HP 1727A Scope Message-ID: <110.4f34a76b.3027e069@aol.com> I'm hoping that you printed this: hp 1727A Storage Oscilloscope (275 MHz) with manual, does not power up but for $10 no complaints. If so email me back if you would like to sell it. I will pay shipping. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 8 16:23:24 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:23:24 -0500 Subject: DECDLD usage -good enough for minimal graphics? Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F977AAE@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hello everyone! I was just investigating the usage of DECDLD for defining a small graphic screen on my PDP11 during a program. When using a VT220 at 19200 baud, how fast can a screen be refreshed using DECDLD graphics? I was thinking of doing a multiplayer (4 player) game using this system. From bv at norbionics.com Tue Aug 9 08:40:19 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:40:19 +0200 Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:47:54 +0200, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Re: "I reckon that a good 35mm camera (good meaning a top-end lens and >> fine grain film) is equivalent to 12-20 megapixels." >> >> My understanding from the camera companies, which I've heard more than >> once >> (and going back to 2000, before any such digital cameras existed) is >> that >> they consider 35mm film about the equivalent of 6 megapixels. It's not > > This may well be the case for a reasonable compact camera with a zoom > lens, and normal colour print film processed in the the local overnight > photo shop (actually, I think 6Mpixels is better than that...). I also > think that a top-end fixed focal length lens, fine grain film, and > careful processing/printing will be a lot better than that. > An excellent lens and high-resolution B&W film may give you up to 100 lp/mm. The pixel depth will be 12 bits or more. A 36mm wide negative will accomodate 3600 line pairs or 7200 pixels. To reliably resolve that digitally without artifacts, the Nyquist theorem tells us we need at least 14400 pixels. The equivalent photodetector to match high-resolution film will then be 9600x14400, giving us 138240000 or for short 138 megapixels. High quality colour film can resolve around 64 lp/mm. This will give us 3072x4608. Assuming a normal lens will work as a low pass filter, we forget about Nyquist and end up with 14155776 as the lower limit for 35mm equivalent quality, I suspect that pixel depth is the biggest problem with current detectors. When I scan my slides, 3x12 bits per pixel is the minimum to avoid quality loss. With a scanner, you can easily gain another but by doubling the number of passes. This does not work with a camera, the detector needs to have enough depth (signal/noise ratio) to begin with, -- Bj?rn From Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com Tue Aug 9 10:13:11 2005 From: Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:13:11 -0700 Subject: Intel Multibus Boards Available Message-ID: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3FCC@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Hi List, In addition to salvaging what I can from my flooded basement, I'm also taking the opportunity to unload a few things that I no longer use. I don't know if anyone has any use for these boards from an intellec 800 box, but I thought I'd ask. As far as I can tell, they all work fine. 16K x 8 RAM 1001125 Qty 4 Processor 1000340 Front Panel Control 1000343 Monitor Module 1000351 Floppy Disk Controller 1001036 and 1000467 I also have two big blue floppy disk enclosures, each containing two 8" floppies (and one big honkin' power supply). Shipping costs for the enclosures are likely prohibitive, but I'm willing to pull parts out if anyone needs anything. Any takers?? I'm located in Saskatoon, SK, Canada. Pat From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Aug 10 01:17:19 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:17:19 -0500 Subject: Altair serial port update In-Reply-To: <003601c59a38$d06b34a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200508100626.j7A6QuUP016112@keith.ezwind.net> OK. I have a question about how this list works. This message just came through today. I could swear that I saw replies to this email two days ago. There seem to be 3 or 4 people who get these emails immediately and reply to them and I don't see the originals until much later when I get 65 emails at once from this list. The last part I understand, I think, the list is moderated, and the moderator can't do this all day every day. I also see that the few guys that seem to respond early are very knowledgeable and probably deserve some special access, if that's what's going on. What am I missing? BTW - the message in this email is something I always tell my networking classes - I have learned several times the lesson to always check the physical layer first. Now if I could just remember it ... Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:42 PM > To: 'CCTalk' > Subject: Altair serial port update > > All: > > Word to the wise -- always check the cabling. ... From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Wed Aug 10 01:28:41 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 01:28:41 -0500 Subject: Intel Multibus Boards Available In-Reply-To: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8960B3FCC@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Message-ID: <200508100638.j7A6cIKQ016188@keith.ezwind.net> I just picked up an Intellec from surpus here at the Univ. I know next to nothing about it. Anything you can't unload I would be happy to have. TIA, Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pat Fitzpatrick > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:13 AM > To: 'Cctech (E-mail) > Subject: Intel Multibus Boards Available > > Hi List, > > In addition to salvaging what I can from my flooded basement, > I'm also taking the opportunity to unload a few things that I > no longer use. I don't know if anyone has any use for these > boards from an intellec 800 box, but I thought I'd ask. As > far as I can tell, they all work fine. > > 16K x 8 RAM 1001125 Qty 4 > Processor 1000340 > Front Panel Control 1000343 > Monitor Module 1000351 > Floppy Disk Controller 1001036 and 1000467 > > I also have two big blue floppy disk enclosures, each > containing two 8" floppies (and one big honkin' power > supply). Shipping costs for the enclosures are likely > prohibitive, but I'm willing to pull parts out if anyone > needs anything. > > Any takers?? > > I'm located in Saskatoon, SK, Canada. > > Pat > > From john.e.hieber at juno.com Thu Aug 11 11:11:12 2005 From: john.e.hieber at juno.com (john e hieber) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:11:12 -0700 Subject: Pro-log M824 manual Message-ID: <20050811.091113.-923457.0.john.e.hieber@juno.com> Bob. Did you obtain a manual for this device, I have need of one also. John From phillipmilks at netzero.com Thu Aug 11 09:27:05 2005 From: phillipmilks at netzero.com (phillipmilks at netzero.com) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:27:05 GMT Subject: Heath ET-3400 Trainer Simulator SW Message-ID: <20050811.072713.13621.354340@webmail06.nyc.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From pietra2p at virgilio.it Fri Aug 12 04:04:39 2005 From: pietra2p at virgilio.it (pietra2p at virgilio.it) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:04:39 +0100 (GMT+01:00) Subject: Inductive load Message-ID: <9172560.1123837479361.JavaMail.root@pswm9.cp.tin.it> Dear Brian, I'm italian electrical engineer expert in designing power inverters mainly using SCR components which are really preferable under the specific power dissipation and reliability to to sudden gradient of voltage/current to be superimposed to the SCR itself. Over the several technical articles written on the inductive loads topics, nothing related to inductice current coming back from the load to the source. With SCR I have to foresee power diode; with mosfet and IGBT this is automatically achieved due to reverse diode encapsulated. This is over the problem due to first istant peak current and surge voltage at a mosfet commutation switching. What do you think about. Regards, Max From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Aug 5 02:04:30 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:04:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <17138.30950.255636.208396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17138.30950.255636.208396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <40237.195.212.29.91.1123225470.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > Patrick> know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital camera > Patrick> will produce "good enough" results. > Fanatics can get cameras with many tens of megapixels, and if you want > a 30 by 50 inch photo you might want to rent one of those. But for > 8x10 that's excessive. My girlfriend used to work in a Fuji photo lab, one of the little supermarket ones. They could print on 8" roll paper (they did various widths, and the printer would just guillotine it at the required length). Her Fuji Finepix S602 Zoom, around 6 megapixels, could produce much higher resolution images than the printer could deal with. Gordon. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Aug 5 07:42:20 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:42:20 -0500 Subject: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the Electrologica X1 In-Reply-To: <20050804234554.E40684@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200508051251.j75Cpl5M062451@keith.ezwind.net> It is really funny what you hang on to sometimes. Back in the '60s I was a Comp. Sci. student at U of Houston. I studied with Dr. Newhouse when that Algol '60 book came out. He took that book and assigned each student a few subroutines. We were using an XDS Sigma 7 system with a Fortran compiler. We each wrote our few routines in Fortran and then he was going to try to put the whole thing together. I am not sure if he got it working, but I did end up with a listing of all of the source code, and I still have it. Thanks for bringing back a memory from the software side of the house. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:51 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the > Electrologica X1 > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Stefan wrote: > > > Subject: The Dijkstra-Zonneveld ALGOL 60 compiler for the > > Electrologica X1 > > > > Thought this might be a nice read for some of you : > > > > > http://repos.project.cwi.nl:8080/nl/repository_db/all_publications/415 > > 5/ > > Wow, thanks for the reference! > > ALGOL development is pretty interesting, it was a wonderful > and awful thing. I've read Randall and Russell's "ALGOL 60 > IMPLEMENTATION" (1964); it doesn't contain code, but it very > thoroughly documents the design and algorithms in prose, > examples and the intermediate ("p-code") internal > interpretive language. > Pretty amazing all around, that they documented it so well. > > Alas, abebooks can't find a copy of the Dijkstra-Zonneveld book. > > > From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Wed Aug 10 11:18:36 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: free Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for PDP-11 Message-ID: Dear Classiccmp Community, I have a Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for a PDP-11 to give away. It was given to me as working, but I cannot test it since I do not currently have a working PDP-11 system. It provides color 512x512 output to a monitor, which a included. Also included is the original documentation, which includes technical data and programming information. It seems that it can also act as a frame grabber. It has hardware pan/zoom functionality. It is a regular 19" rack unit, approximately a cube, and weighs around 40 pounds. I am in New York City. If you want it, come and get it. thanks, -kurt From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Wed Aug 10 16:12:14 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: PDP11 message board Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F97887E@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Just wanted to let you guys know about the pdp11 message board I've been running. It's been up for awhile, I just never mentioned it on this list. http://pdpusers.dyndns.org Take a look! Julian From chuck.patten at verizon.net Thu Aug 11 00:05:00 2005 From: chuck.patten at verizon.net (Chuck Patten) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:05:00 -0700 Subject: Motorola 6800D2 Message-ID: Noticed you had collected one from an old thread. Are you interested in parting with it? cheers, chuck. From nick at computer-history.org Fri Aug 12 13:57:16 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (Nick Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:57:16 -0500 Subject: Free Parts Computers in St. Louis, MO CoCo (4x 1, 3x 2, 1x 3) and Kaypro (2 & 4) Message-ID: <006801c59f6f$a8742f60$7a00a8c0@Millers> I have several parts computers available for pickup in St. Charles, MO. I have 4 CoCo 1's, 3 CoCo 2's, a CoCo 3, a Kaypro 2 and a 4. All have either cosmetic or operational difficulties, some have both. I've tried to freecycle them but had no luck. I was hoping there was someone in the area that could find a use for them. There are probably some other odds and ends to throw in as well. Nick From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sat Aug 13 18:59:02 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:59:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200508132359.j7DNwwqa058872@keith.ezwind.net> Dear Classiccmp Community, I have a Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for a PDP-11 to give away. It was given to me as working, but I cannot test it since I do not currently have a working PDP-11 system. It provides color 512x512 output to a monitor, which a included. Also included is the original documentation, which includes technical data and programming information. It seems that it can also act as a frame grabber. It has hardware pan/zoom functionality. It is a regular 19" rack unit, approximately a cube, and weighs around 40 pounds. I am in New York City. If you want it, come and get it. -kurt From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sun Aug 14 09:27:04 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:27:04 -0000 Subject: Free Grinnell Frame Buffer Graphics for PDP-11 Message-ID: <200508141437.j7EEbgM3063725@keith.ezwind.net> Dear Classiccmp Community, I have a Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for a PDP-11 to give away. It was given to me as working, but I cannot test it since I do not currently have a working PDP-11 system. It provides color 512x512 output to a monitor, which a included. Also included is the original documentation, which includes technical data and programming information. It seems that it can also act as a frame grabber. It has hardware pan/zoom functionality. It is a regular 19" rack unit, approximately a cube, and weighs around 40 pounds. I am in New York City. If you want it, come and get it. thanks, -kurt From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sun Aug 14 17:57:27 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: free Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for PDP-11 Message-ID: Dear Classiccmp Community, I have a Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for a PDP-11 to give away. It was given to me as working, but I cannot test it since I do not currently have a working PDP-11 system. It provides color 512x512 output to a monitor, which a included. Also included is the original documentation, which includes technical data and programming information. It seems that it can also act as a frame grabber. It has hardware pan/zoom functionality. It is a regular 19" rack unit, approximately a cube, and weighs around 40 pounds. I am in New York City. If you want it, come and get it. thanks, -kurt From korpela at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 17:08:15 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:08:15 -0700 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <4300DAD9.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4300DAD9.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/15/05, woodelf wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > > simple-minded of people :) > err > i + 1 -> j And here I though he forgot to put "LET" in front of "i=i+1". Either that or he forgot the colon in i:=i+1; :) From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 15 21:11:49 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: free Grinnell GMR-270 frame buffer for PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am in New York City. If you want it, come and get it. CUNY? Are you in the VW building with the mainframe folks? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 15 21:14:00 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:14:00 -0500 Subject: volunteers wanted for list help :) Message-ID: <027001c5a208$2bafd970$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'd like to solicit volunteers to help with gating posts from cctalk to cctech. Ideally, people in a drastically different time zone than central US :) Gating posts takes about 5-15 minutes per day, all depends on how many people are doing it. You basically log in to a website for cctech and click on "accept" if the post is 100% on-topic, or reject if it's not. You then log in to a website for cctalk and click "accept" if it's ok (non-list member post) or "reject" if its one of the few spam that makes it by the filters. When this is done consistently, the list runs smooth and it's very quick & easy to do. When it's not run consistently, it can become a royal pain and consume a lot of time. Doing this gating used to be a very time consuming thing, but since I've made some changes to the mail stream it's not quite quick and easy - as long as it's kept up with. I - and the people on cctech, would greatly appreciate it if a reliable individual with 5 to 15 minutes per day to spare can help out! Jay West From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 15 21:14:51 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0400 (edt) Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer In-Reply-To: <012901c59949$8bfaa9d0$7a00a8c0@Millers> from "Nick Miller" at Aug 4, 05 06:09:20 pm Message-ID: <200508160214.WAA19731@wordstock.com> And thusly Nick Miller spake: > > These were both very interesting. I also enjoyed Michael Tomczyk's "The > Home Computer Wars". It may be difficult to find a copy though. I believe there was talk at one time that Michael Tomczyk was going to do a new version of this book, but I haven't read anything about any progress lately.. :( Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 15 21:30:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:30:44 -0400 Subject: Motorola 6800D2 Message-ID: <0ILA00IT0MZ2JG42@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> This is aimed at whom? Allison > >Subject: Motorola 6800D2 > From: "Chuck Patten" > Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:05:00 -0700 > To: > >Noticed you had collected one from an old thread. Are you interested in >parting with it? > > > >cheers, > >chuck. > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Aug 15 22:11:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: Like the Sanyo just yesterday, I have a Compaq SLT/286 portable computer taking up space. Very nice condition, with power unit, dock, and bag. Any interest CHEAP? I am located in New York, zip 10512. Unlike the Sanyo, if there is no interest, I suppose I will just chop this up. I am desperately trying to clear out a bedroom to work on it - the bedroom that ends up being the junk overflow containment chamber. It would actually be nice to sleep in it sometime. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Aug 15 22:31:42 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) Message-ID: <20050816033142.A6DA53BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > The equivalent photodetector to match high-resolution film will then be > 9600x14400, giving us 138240000 or for short 138 megapixels. are these real megapixels or the bogo-pixels used by digital camera manufacturers; they count each colour separately so that a 3megapixel camera actually has 1 megapixel of blue, 1 megapixel or red and 1 megapixel of green sensor elements. They output 3 megapixel files by extrapolation. From cb at mythtech.net Mon Aug 15 23:14:11 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:14:11 -0400 Subject: JetDirect EX print server Message-ID: >Did you get any manual for the printer server j2382. ? >I have 2 unit and can't get them to recive a ip in the bootp procedure at >start up. >Mybe I have to bye some new one. :-( I assume this was aimed at me, although if it is, it is from a very old thread. No, I never located a manual. I was able to get it to take an address over bootp eventually. My problem turned out to be my bootp server was sucky. Bootp was apparently tacked onto my DHCP server as an afterthought and it just didn't work well. When I moved to a different BootP server, the problems went away. (I ended up using the BootP portion of MS Win2k Server's DHCP server). Possibly you have the same problem. Maybe it wasn't so much my BootP server was bad, as the JetDirect is overly picky. So maybe it is just incompatible with your BootP server as well (I too had two of them doing the same thing before I tried changing my BootP server). -chris From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 15 23:29:27 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 15, 2005 06:38:19 PM Message-ID: <20050816042927.F06E573029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > The difference between equality and assignment can be a tough one for > beginning programmers to master. It would make life easier to use the > left arrow, as APL does, instead of the "equals sign" for assignment. > ... or the N := N + 1, or MOV N, N + 1 , or even the LET N = N + 1 , > as used by Kurtz and Kemeny in their early versions of BASIC. Using '=' seems natural to me, but then again, I'm a programmer, not a mathematician. Back in college, I took electronics for non-EE majors. The first half of the course dealt with analog electronics (including the analog characteristics of transistors) and while most of the other students had an easy time with that portion, I struggled hard and I *still* don't quite understand the operating characteristics of a transistor, or what exactly the difference is between a PNP and NPN transistor. Second half the course though, was digital electronics which I found trivial, although most of the other students had real difficulty with the concept of +5V being a logical 1 (what? 5 = 1? What? What the hell are you talking about?) and the less said about Boolean algebra, the better 8-P And if programmer can't grasp the difference between equality and assignment, then heaven help us when you get to pointers ... -spc (Thankfully, never had much difficulty with pointers since I had Assembly *before* hitting C ... ) From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Aug 16 01:10:19 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:10:19 +1000 Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050816042927.F06E573029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050816042927.F06E573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <010A4348-A917-4821-B49E-BB5A61AEED9C@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 16/08/2005, at 2:29 PM, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Back in college, I took electronics for non-EE majors. The first > half of > the course dealt with analog electronics (including the analog > characteristics of transistors) and while most of the other > students had an > easy time with that portion, I struggled hard and I *still* don't > quite > understand the operating characteristics of a transistor, or what > exactly > the difference is between a PNP and NPN transistor. > > Second half the course though, was digital electronics which I found > trivial, although most of the other students had real difficulty > with the > concept of +5V being a logical 1 (what? 5 = 1? What? What the > hell are > you talking about?) and the less said about Boolean algebra, the > better 8-P Thank goodness there's someone else who had exactly the same problems I did. I just thought I was stupid or something :-) > And if programmer can't grasp the difference between equality and > assignment, then heaven help us when you get to pointers ... The issue I had was teaching FORTRAN to first year Maths students. No amount of contrived explanations helped - the standard one being comparing variables to street numbers and how the house at number 74 could contain many different things. Even after 25 years or so it still seems a poor analogy. Getting over this conceptual difficulty is one of the reasons for teaching assembly language programming in CS courses but that's an argument that's basically lost now - teach them java, VB whatever's the current fad language (oooh, asbestos suit time now - also drifting off topic). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Aug 16 01:58:55 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:58:55 +0200 Subject: volunteers wanted for list help :) Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E0F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > I'd like to solicit volunteers to help with gating posts from > cctalk to cctech. Ideally, people in a drastically different > time zone than central US :) What would you consider drastically? I am in The Netherlands you knew that ;-) and with NY the time difference is 6 hours, with LA is 9 hours ... > Gating posts takes about 5-15 minutes per day, all depends on > how many people are doing it. You basically log in to a website > for cctech and click on "accept" if the post is 100% on-topic, > or reject if it's not. You then log in to a website for cctalk > and click "accept" if it's ok (non-list member post) or "reject" > if its one of the few spam that makes it by the filters. Ok, a few questions. When is a post on-topic? Is it just the "10-year" rule, or ...? Do you have some minimalist guide lines? > When this is done consistently, the list runs smooth and it's > very quick & easy to do. When it's not run consistently, it can > become a royal pain and consume a lot of time. I can not promise that I can do this every evening (or at work over the day perhaps a few times), but I am indeed most of my evenings at home, seldom on holiday, etc. > I - and the people on cctech, would greatly appreciate it if > a reliable individual with 5 to 15 minutes per day to spare can > help out! I can do that, *if* - nobody gets angry when I move a post to the wrong list (misunderstood contents, "guideline" interpreted different) - I am allowed to miss out 2 or 3 times per month (not expecting that, but you never know what can happen) - get clear instructions what I must do, how, etc. - Henk, PA8PDP The Netherlands From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Aug 16 02:03:54 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:03:54 +0200 Subject: volunteers wanted for list help :) Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E11@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Oops, meant to be private mail ... - Henk, PA8PDP From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 16 03:14:02 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:14:02 -0500 Subject: Bondwell Model 2 web page up Message-ID: <4301A04A.2070609@pacbell.net> The Bondwell Model 2 laptop computer came out in 1985, running CP/M, had an internal 3.5" floppy, and was capable of 640x200 bitmapped graphics. There isn't much of substance on the web about it and the bits that are there are cast far afield, so I've spent an evening collecting the odds and ends together, added my own stuff, and produced this web site: http://www.thebattles.net/bondwell/bondwell.html I don't plan on expanding it too much more. If somebody contributes something for the web page I'll add on to it. Mostly it is a very elaborate bookmark for my own use. :-) From cc at corti-net.de Tue Aug 16 03:41:28 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:41:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508152132.j7FLWoAc079800@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508152132.j7FLWoAc079800@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Ade Vickers wrote: > PS: Ironically, I *do* need an HP terminal.... To get my A700 running! > Unfortunately, being 3000 miles the wrong side of a big lump of water kind > of prevents me from bidding for the "dream computer" of the subject... You can use HP-Term or AdvanceLink on any PC. They emulate a HP 2393/2397 terminal including color and graphics. Both programs can be found on www.hpmuseum.net (look out for software for the HP Vectra). Christian From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Aug 16 05:40:55 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:40:55 +0100 Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050805093715.01bd9090@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050816104054.GA27799@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Aug 05, 2005 at 11:37:40PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > And from the sublime to the ridiculous, those pre-loaded single-use > outdoor-only cameras don't contain a battery :-). Maybe I'm a bit weird, but I like those. I like them a lot. In fact one of my best photographs was taken with one. I've taken perhaps two or three better out of thousands of digital photos. That's because a good photograph is mostly composition and luck, with equipment not mattering much at all IMO. Oh, and Photoshop :-) > Mroe seriously, the batteries taken by most film cameras were standard > primary batteries and are a lot easier to find than a custom Li-ion or > NiMH pack for a digital camera. For at least some digital cameras you can get carriers for off-the-shelf cells. The feature of my D70 I like the least is that I can't use AAs. Anyone know if the D50 can? -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Eye have a spelling chequer / It came with my pea sea It planely marques four my revue / Miss Steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a quay and type a word / And weight for it to say Weather eye am wrong oar write / It shows me strait a weigh. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 16 05:51:11 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:51:11 +0100 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: <40237.195.212.29.91.1123225470.squirrel@195.212.29.91> References: <200508041500.32692.pat@computer-refuge.org> <17138.30950.255636.208396@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <40237.195.212.29.91.1123225470.squirrel@195.212.29.91> Message-ID: <4301C51F.3050409@gjcp.net> WTF? I posted this nearly two weeks ago! Gordon. gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >> Patrick> know, you're not 'most people') a $300-$500 digital camera >> Patrick> will produce "good enough" results. > > >>Fanatics can get cameras with many tens of megapixels, and if you want >>a 30 by 50 inch photo you might want to rent one of those. But for >>8x10 that's excessive. > > > My girlfriend used to work in a Fuji photo lab, one of the little > supermarket ones. They could print on 8" roll paper (they did various > widths, and the printer would just guillotine it at the required length). > Her Fuji Finepix S602 Zoom, around 6 megapixels, could produce much higher > resolution images than the printer could deal with. > > Gordon. > > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 16 06:50:29 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:50:29 -0400 Subject: Film vs. Digital... Die, Die, Die! (was: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:40:55 BST." <20050816104054.GA27799@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <200508161150.j7GBoTZr001910@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Cantrell wrote: > >That's because a good photograph is mostly composition and luck, with >equipment not mattering much at all IMO. Oh, and Photoshop :-) 1) this is off topic 2) I used to think that also, until I started using high quality optics. Turns out the glass makes a huge difference. I can show you pictures taken with the same body through a cheap pacific-rim lens and nice Nikon lens and you can see a huge differnce in color, clarity and definition. 3) art is art. you can make a nice dogma movie with a $29 CVS disposable digital movie camera. it just wont' look good on a 50' screen. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 16 06:51:30 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:51:30 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:51:11 BST." <4301C51F.3050409@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200508161151.j7GBpUQi001974@mwave.heeltoe.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >WTF? I posted this nearly two weeks ago! I got a huge spat of old messages last night. I checked the headers and they seemed to be sent yesterday so I assumed it was some sort of server problem. -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 16 06:58:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:58:10 -0400 Subject: VCF suggestions... Message-ID: <0ILB00IMPD8MJGT2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VCF suggestions... > From: Brad Parker > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:51:30 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>WTF? I posted this nearly two weeks ago! > >I got a huge spat of old messages last night. I checked the headers and >they seemed to be sent yesterday so I assumed it was some sort of server >problem. > >-brad Ok, So it wasn't only me. Seems from time to time I get very bursty traffic. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 16 08:34:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:34:45 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <17153.60277.172000.423905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> On 16/08/2005, at 3:07 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Things like i + 1 =: i or i + 1 -> i make much more sense. This >> typical high level language format makes reading code >> confusing. Sometimes one reads left to right for operations while >> others, one has to look to the right to find the sequence and then >> look to the left to complete. Huw> I've always wondered why the form i + 1 -> i never took off. I Huw> recall at least one programming language I looked at (can't Huw> remember the name right now ... POP-2. Everything is left-associative. And then of course there is APL, where everything is right-associative. Huw> I don't like c very much but I do appreciate that it's really a Huw> high- level assembler ... As is Bliss, of course. If you want a high level language, use Pascal. If you want one suitable for system programming, there's Modula-2 (which was used by DEC for that purpose). Or Algol variants (such as Espol, used in the Burroughs mainframe OS). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 16 08:36:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:36:06 -0400 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> <430138BB.nailC651TPL4S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <17153.60358.505000.166738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: Tim> Several of the Model 33 TTY's I've gone through over the years Tim> had the "Early" ASCII character assignments (and had a slashed Tim> letter O and an unslashed number 0). That doesn't sound like "early ASCII" -- it sounds like the IBM "do everything differently" convention. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 16 08:38:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:38:26 -0400 Subject: Antique messages References: <20050811.072713.13621.354340@webmail06.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: <17153.60498.630000.602058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Am I the only one getting fifty or so week-old messages from cctalk? paul From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 16 08:49:09 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:49:09 -0400 (edt) Subject: Antique messages In-Reply-To: <17153.60498.630000.602058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 16, 05 09:38:26 am Message-ID: <200508161349.JAA11942@wordstock.com> And thusly Paul Koning spake: > > Am I the only one getting fifty or so week-old messages from cctalk? > > paul You are not alone.... Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 16 09:38:05 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17153.60277.172000.423905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "Aug 16, 5 09:34:45 am" Message-ID: <200508161438.HAA34304@floodgap.com> > As is Bliss, of course. If you want a high level language, use > Pascal. If you want one suitable for system programming, there's > Modula-2 (which was used by DEC for that purpose). It's nice to finally hear Modula-2 in approving tones; I hear too many whines about it. I've done some useful programming in Modula-2 and for old Mac programming, the MacMeTH M-2 compiler generates wonderful code, small executables, and good compatibility with System versions going back as far as 1.1. (!) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismograph. -- Ken Kesey ------------- From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Aug 16 09:53:15 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:53:15 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <430138BB.nailC651TPL4S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> <430138BB.nailC651TPL4S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 16/08/2005, at 10:52 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > It's the other way around, but in early ASCII standards where we now > have underbar was instead back-arrow. (And instead of caret there was > up-arrow). I think the intention was to use it as an assignment > operator. Indeed this was the case. The DECsystem-10 I used to work on had two line printers, one had underscore, the other had back-arrow. It was really important to print BLISS-10 code on the right one (and RUNOFF output on the other - underlining with backarrows was sad :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Aug 16 09:56:08 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:56:08 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17153.60277.172000.423905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> <17153.60277.172000.423905@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <8975DB99-1927-4C1F-AE06-217113EED0DC@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 16/08/2005, at 11:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > As is Bliss, of course. If you want a high level language, use > Pascal. If you want one suitable for system programming, there's > Modula-2 (which was used by DEC for that purpose). Or Algol variants > (such as Espol, used in the Burroughs mainframe OS). Sorry, didn't mean to imply that BLISS-10 (and BCPL) weren't. I did some Modula-2 programming but like many other languages (Algol-60, Algol-68) it's just a note in the history books now. Of course, Ada is the solution, I'm just not quite sure I remember the question :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 16 09:58:38 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: from Huw Davies at "Aug 17, 5 00:53:15 am" Message-ID: <200508161458.HAA14768@floodgap.com> > It's the other way around, but in early ASCII standards where we now > have underbar was instead back-arrow. (And instead of caret there was > up-arrow). I think the intention was to use it as an assignment > operator. Commodore 8-bits are that way. The <- key on the upper left is ASCII 95, same as _, and the caret is an up arrow. However, Commodore BASIC uses = :-) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Aug 16 09:58:57 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:58:57 +1000 Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <17153.60358.505000.166738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508151707.KAA19913@clulw009.amd.com> <04D4DA37-605B-4159-9F5A-F32B8DFD954E@kerberos.davies.net.au> <430138BB.nailC651TPL4S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17153.60358.505000.166738@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <06817036-D769-4C8B-9D2A-EA5C65F7537D@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 16/08/2005, at 11:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: >>>>>> > > Tim> Several of the Model 33 TTY's I've gone through over the years > Tim> had the "Early" ASCII character assignments (and had a slashed > Tim> letter O and an unslashed number 0). > > That doesn't sound like "early ASCII" -- it sounds like the IBM "do > everything differently" convention. I thought it was CDC who had the slashed Ohs or perhaps it was Burroughs. In the three universities in Melbourne in the early 70s we had a DECsystem-10 (La Trobe), Burroughs 7800 (Monash) and a CDC-6000 (Melbourne) and I remember thinking that we'd got the best deal with the DECsystem-10 although I later learnt that the other two systems were cool in their own distinct ways. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 16 10:27:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? Message-ID: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which appears to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes spinning up says to my ear "bearing friction". I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. Of course, this would at best be a temporary fix, since it is on its way out at this point; this is more to gain experience on a throwaway device than to actually recover the drive. (All the bits from it are safe; live mirroring is great for that.) Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to do this in as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the platter assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for example, have any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - assuming the bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... ObOTness thread: the disk itself may be formally on-topic; it's certainly close to - it is stamped "MAR 31 1996". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 11:03:01 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:03:01 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43020E35.3000809@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which appears > to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes spinning up says to my > ear "bearing friction". > > I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. Of course, > this would at best be a temporary fix, since it is on its way out at > this point; this is more to gain experience on a throwaway device than > to actually recover the drive. (All the bits from it are safe; live > mirroring is great for that.) > > Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to do this in > as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the platter > assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for example, have > any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - assuming the > bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... > > ObOTness thread: the disk itself may be formally on-topic; it's > certainly close to - it is stamped "MAR 31 1996". I've done it before, but I find it's not usually worth it, unless you can't access data on the drive, and you really need that data. I'd say if that drive is still working, find an identical drive and dd the data over. The drive is nowhere near as valuable as the data, at least for newish drives. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 16 11:06:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <43020E35.3000809@gmail.com> References: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43020E35.3000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200508161610.MAA22077@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I have a disk drive [with problems]. >> I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. > I've done it before, but I find it's not usually worth it, unless you > can't access data on the drive, and you really need that data. I'd > say if that drive is still working, find an identical drive and dd > the data over. The main reason I want to do this is not to recover data, even though the drive is dead - >> (All the bits from it are safe; live mirroring is great for that.) but rather for the doing of it. As I wrote, it's >> more to gain experience on a throwaway device than to actually >> recover the drive. So that when (if) I really need to, I'll have some idea what I'm doing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 11:29:59 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:29:59 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508161610.MAA22077@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43020E35.3000809@gmail.com> <200508161610.MAA22077@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43021487.1040003@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>more to gain experience on a throwaway device than to actually >>>recover the drive. > > > So that when (if) I really need to, I'll have some idea what I'm doing. I see. Most of the time, when I need to recover the data from the drive and it's a bearing problem, I don't bother doing it myself. Maybe someone else has more experience with physical issues. When I end up fixing a drive myself, the reason is usually blown electronics, and the fix is usually fairly simple: I get my hands on another identical drive (preferably one with lots of bad sectors, or that has a seized bearing... I get them for free a lot of the time) and I swap the drive electronics out. Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 11:33:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rephrasing Analog Modem Question In-Reply-To: <01C5993A.D3FDB6A0@H82.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, M H Stein wrote: > BTW, Howard Harte apparently has a Cromemco System1 set up to be powered > up and accessed via the Internet, but I've never gotten his to come up; > has anybody here ever tried it and succeeded? Howard's systems are currently in storage. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 11:46:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On 8/1/05, steve wrote: > > I couldn't find anything either. A year or so ago I > > talked to both Robert Nielsen (apparently the > > original owner of the seven Kenbaks) and John > > Blankenbaker himself, both were totally uninterested > > in providing me with any information whatsoever. I > > guess its in the "vault":( > > > > Yep, In Robert Nielsen's article he says that he has no intention of > making the documents or schematics available. I assume that's because > that would allow someone to recreate the machine and prevent Nielsen > from protecting the machine. "The only way I can protect the > Kenbak-1s, is "sell" them for a substantial price." > > He does say that he would reproduce them for people buying is > machines. Yep, the only way to protect these machines is to prevent > information about them from being available to the public. No doubt > those paying ultra-inflated prices will agree with that sentiment. > > It's all about the Benjamins.... :( Well, it's his property, I guess. It's also rather short-sighted and...oh sure, I'll throw in ignorant as well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 11:52:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On 8/15/05, woodelf wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > > > simple-minded of people :) > > err > > i + 1 -> j > > And here I though he forgot to put "LET" in front of "i=i+1". Either > that or he forgot the colon in i:=i+1; I guess it's how your mind works. I never paid attention in math classes, so to me, "i = i + 1" says "assign variable i the value of itself plus 1 more". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 11:55:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Suggestions (film vs. digital cameras) In-Reply-To: <20050816033142.A6DA53BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: Didn't this thread die about a week ago? In the future, can these messages simply be gated out of existence during the moderation process (i.e. treated as spam?) I'll volunteer for the gating if I could do this. I'm sure nobody would like me as a moderator, so the better option is for people to not be so blatantly about off-topic. This is just rude and annoying. On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Bj?rn Vermo wrote: > > The equivalent photodetector to match high-resolution film will then be > > 9600x14400, giving us 138240000 or for short 138 megapixels. > are these real megapixels or the bogo-pixels used by digital camera > manufacturers; they count each colour separately so that a 3megapixel > camera actually has 1 megapixel of blue, 1 megapixel or red and > 1 megapixel of green sensor elements. They output 3 megapixel > files by extrapolation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 16 12:38:37 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:38:37 -0700 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <200508161700.j7GH02Qm099988@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4302249D.79C02605@rain.org> I used to work with some engineers when they were designing the DMA Systems removeable HD. When I saw a HD being run on the bench without the cover, I asked about the clean room. The answer was that for what they were doing, the disk would run fine but they did not smoke around the drives nor stir up copius amounts of dust. Being the curious type, I took a drive cover off and ran it for at least a week or so without problems in a somewhat unclean environment. I *think* putting the cover back on would move the air through the internal filter and clean things up again. No idea on the bearing lubricant; most of the bearings I've seen were sealed. Something in the back of my mind says that removing the platters will disturb the relationship of the platters and may result in having to do a low level format. Others here (hopefully) have more and better information about this. > From: der Mouse > Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to do this in > as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the platter > assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for example, have > any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - assuming the > bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 16 13:14:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: drive repair tips? Message-ID: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Sridhar Ayengar" > >der Mouse wrote: >> I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which appears >> to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes spinning up says to my >> ear "bearing friction". >> >> I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. Of course, >> this would at best be a temporary fix, since it is on its way out at >> this point; this is more to gain experience on a throwaway device than >> to actually recover the drive. (All the bits from it are safe; live >> mirroring is great for that.) >> >> Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to do this in >> as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the platter >> assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for example, have >> any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - assuming the >> bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... >> >> ObOTness thread: the disk itself may be formally on-topic; it's >> certainly close to - it is stamped "MAR 31 1996". > >I've done it before, but I find it's not usually worth it, unless you >can't access data on the drive, and you really need that data. I'd say >if that drive is still working, find an identical drive and dd the data >over. > >The drive is nowhere near as valuable as the data, at least for newish >drives. > >Peace... Sridhar > Hi It sounds like a fun project. Don't expect to get good results but consider it as an experiment in how to analyze a drive failure. One problem you may find is that in order to get to the bearing, you'll need to unmount the disk platters. It will be almost impossible to get these mounted in the same concentric location as they came out from. Also, note that rotating the disk surface, even a little backwards while the heads are in contact will most likely destroy the surface. One last thing is that you may need to make some special spanners to undo some of the fasteners. You can make a clean work area by getting some plastic sheeting, a small blower and a HEPA filter from a vacuum cleaner. Wipe the inside and the outside of the plastic sheet with a 10:1 diluted mixture of liquid dish soap and water. Let this dry. This stops most all of the static that would hold or transfer dust on the plastic sheet. Try to get some clear plastic so you can see but a small piece of glass should work. The bearing will be sealed but if you can access it from the motor side, you can get some lubricant by lifting the seal. Remember, you can't rotate the disk while the heads are on the surface. You'll need to make a comb like tool to lift them off while banging and digging on things. Hope this doesn't scare you. I do wish to hear what results you have. Also any observations you have while disassembling. The brand and type of drive are also of interest here. Dwight From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Aug 16 15:46:15 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:46:15 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050816204702.A43E13802D@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Apparently, the iBook sale in Virginia turned out to be a real Donnybrook. Folks lined up at 1:30 am, and there was a stampede when the doors finally opened. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973616/ -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:15 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: drive repair tips? >From: "Sridhar Ayengar" > >der Mouse wrote: >> I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which appears >> to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes spinning up says to my >> ear "bearing friction". >> >> I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. Of course, >> this would at best be a temporary fix, since it is on its way out at >> this point; this is more to gain experience on a throwaway device than >> to actually recover the drive. (All the bits from it are safe; live >> mirroring is great for that.) >> >> Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to do this in >> as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the platter >> assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for example, have >> any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - assuming the >> bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... >> >> ObOTness thread: the disk itself may be formally on-topic; it's >> certainly close to - it is stamped "MAR 31 1996". > >I've done it before, but I find it's not usually worth it, unless you >can't access data on the drive, and you really need that data. I'd say >if that drive is still working, find an identical drive and dd the data >over. > >The drive is nowhere near as valuable as the data, at least for newish >drives. > >Peace... Sridhar > Hi It sounds like a fun project. Don't expect to get good results but consider it as an experiment in how to analyze a drive failure. One problem you may find is that in order to get to the bearing, you'll need to unmount the disk platters. It will be almost impossible to get these mounted in the same concentric location as they came out from. Also, note that rotating the disk surface, even a little backwards while the heads are in contact will most likely destroy the surface. One last thing is that you may need to make some special spanners to undo some of the fasteners. You can make a clean work area by getting some plastic sheeting, a small blower and a HEPA filter from a vacuum cleaner. Wipe the inside and the outside of the plastic sheet with a 10:1 diluted mixture of liquid dish soap and water. Let this dry. This stops most all of the static that would hold or transfer dust on the plastic sheet. Try to get some clear plastic so you can see but a small piece of glass should work. The bearing will be sealed but if you can access it from the motor side, you can get some lubricant by lifting the seal. Remember, you can't rotate the disk while the heads are on the surface. You'll need to make a comb like tool to lift them off while banging and digging on things. Hope this doesn't scare you. I do wish to hear what results you have. Also any observations you have while disassembling. The brand and type of drive are also of interest here. Dwight From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Aug 16 15:55:16 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:55:16 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545A33@cpexchange.olf.com> and a woman urinated on herself so that she wouldn't give up her spot!!! Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Eros [mailto:tony.eros at machm.org] > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:46 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Used laptop stampede > > > Apparently, the iBook sale in Virginia turned out to be a > real Donnybrook. Folks lined up at 1:30 am, and there was a > stampede when the doors finally opened. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973616/ > > -- Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:15 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: drive repair tips? > > >From: "Sridhar Ayengar" > > > >der Mouse wrote: > >> I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which > >> appears to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes > spinning up > >> says to my ear "bearing friction". > >> > >> I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. > Of course, > >> this would at best be a temporary fix, since it is on its > way out at > >> this point; this is more to gain experience on a throwaway device > >> than to actually recover the drive. (All the bits from it > are safe; > >> live mirroring is great for that.) > >> > >> Any tips from the collective wisdom? Obviously, I want to > do this in > >> as close to a cleanroom as I can reasonably find, and have the > >> platter assembly open as short a time as I can. But I don't, for > >> example, have any idea what would be a suitable lubricant to use - > >> assuming the bearing isn't a totally sealed assembly itself.... > >> > >> ObOTness thread: the disk itself may be formally on-topic; it's > >> certainly close to - it is stamped "MAR 31 1996". > > > >I've done it before, but I find it's not usually worth it, unless you > >can't access data on the drive, and you really need that > data. I'd say > >if that drive is still working, find an identical drive and > dd the data > >over. > > > >The drive is nowhere near as valuable as the data, at least > for newish > >drives. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > > > Hi > It sounds like a fun project. Don't expect to get good > results but consider it as an experiment in how to analyze a > drive failure. One problem you may find is that in order to > get to the bearing, you'll need to unmount the disk platters. > It will be almost impossible to get these mounted in the same > concentric location as they came out from. Also, note that > rotating the disk surface, even a little backwards while the > heads are in contact will most likely destroy the surface. > One last thing is that you may need to make some special > spanners to undo some of the fasteners. You can make a clean > work area by getting some plastic sheeting, a small blower > and a HEPA filter from a vacuum cleaner. Wipe the inside and > the outside of the plastic sheet with a 10:1 diluted mixture > of liquid dish soap and water. Let this dry. This stops most > all of the static that would hold or transfer dust on the > plastic sheet. Try to get some clear plastic so you can see > but a small piece of glass should work. The bearing will be > sealed but if you can access it from the motor side, you can > get some lubricant by lifting the seal. Remember, you can't > rotate the disk while the heads are on the surface. You'll > need to make a comb like tool to lift them off while banging > and digging on things. Hope this doesn't scare you. I do > wish to hear what results you have. Also any observations you > have while disassembling. The brand and type of drive are > also of interest here. Dwight > > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 16 15:55:52 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:55:52 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede References: <20050816204702.A43E13802D@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c5a2a4$e39bc520$0500fea9@game> What did you expect? Sell a large quantity of anything trendy way below fair market value in a first come first server manner and you will have problems. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Eros" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Used laptop stampede > Apparently, the iBook sale in Virginia turned out to be a real Donnybrook. > Folks lined up at 1:30 am, and there was a stampede when the doors finally > opened. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973616/ > > -- Tony > From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Aug 16 16:17:52 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:17:52 -0400 Subject: Bondwell Model 2 web page up In-Reply-To: <4301A04A.2070609@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200508162127.j7GLRb1G094081@keith.ezwind.net> I feel like such an idiot these days...when I was at leading edge [the makers of the Model M and Model D]...(as an intern) in exchange for cleaning out the attic of all the old Comdex stuff - old computers, software, posters etc. One of the machines I ended up taking was a the 8088 version of the Bondwell 2...it was a neat machine, even looked the same...15 years later I have no idea what I did with it...probably threw it out when I got the latest hot rod 286 or something. Please kick me -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Battle Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Bondwell Model 2 web page up The Bondwell Model 2 laptop computer came out in 1985, running CP/M, had an internal 3.5" floppy, and was capable of 640x200 bitmapped graphics. There isn't much of substance on the web about it and the bits that are there are cast far afield, so I've spent an evening collecting the odds and ends together, added my own stuff, and produced this web site: http://www.thebattles.net/bondwell/bondwell.html I don't plan on expanding it too much more. If somebody contributes something for the web page I'll add on to it. Mostly it is a very elaborate bookmark for my own use. :-) From ken at seefried.com Tue Aug 16 17:19:21 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:19:21 -0400 Subject: ns32332 (was: Whitechapel CG-200) Message-ID: <43026669.30306@seefried.com> >The chip's a 32332 - google suggests that's a second generation 32032 >CPU, although it's not a part number I've come across before (we've got >some Natsemi databooks at BP; I'll have to see if it's listed) Did you ever get the info you needed about the ns32332? I've come across the datasheet for this chip and can scan it if you still need it. Ken From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 16 17:59:48 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [..."repairing" a disk drive whose bearings may be shot...] > Don't expect to get good results but consider it as an experiment in > how to analyze a drive failure. Exactly. > One last thing is that you may need to make some special spanners to > undo some of the fasteners. I've taken apart a couple of drives that were sufficiently dead I didn't care about them, and I didn't need anything but a set of torxes. I suppose this drive may be different, but certainly all the things I can _see_ are simple torxes.... > Remember, you can't rotate the disk while the heads are on the > surface. You'll need to make a comb like tool to lift them off while > banging and digging on things. Actually, in the two drives I took apart, when powered down the heads swung completely clear of the platters. I suppose when I take this one apart I'll find out whether it's similar. > Hope this doesn't scare you. I do wish to hear what results you > have. Also any observations you have while disassembling. Oh, never fear, I'll report here, even if it's only "sorry, I dropped the screwdriver on the platter, so it can't possibly work right even if I did get the bearing fixed" :-/ > The brand and type of drive are also of interest here. Seagate ST51080N, OEMed thorugh SGI. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 18:08:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <43020E35.3000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Peace... Sridhar Hey, good to see you re-surface again. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Aug 16 18:15:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <20050816204702.A43E13802D@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Tony Eros wrote: > Apparently, the iBook sale in Virginia turned out to be a real Donnybrook. > Folks lined up at 1:30 am, and there was a stampede when the doors finally > opened. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973616/ This is not only pathetic and ridiculous, it was entirely irresponsible, both on the part of the school district and the herd of jackasses that showed up to have a small chance to pay for a used computer. "People threw themselves forward, screaming and pushing each other. A little girl's stroller was crushed in the stampede. Witnesses said an elderly man was thrown to the pavement, and someone in a car tried to drive his way through the crowd." I'd make some wry comment at this point but these people are so beyond stupid they don't even deserve that much. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 16 18:43:04 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:43:04 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede References: Message-ID: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Tony Eros wrote: > > > Apparently, the iBook sale in Virginia turned out to be a real Donnybrook. > > Folks lined up at 1:30 am, and there was a stampede when the doors finally > > opened. > > > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8973616/ > > This is not only pathetic and ridiculous, it was entirely irresponsible, > both on the part of the school district and the herd of jackasses that > showed up to have a small chance to pay for a used computer. > > "People threw themselves forward, screaming and pushing each other. A > little girl's stroller was crushed in the stampede. Witnesses said an > elderly man was thrown to the pavement, and someone in a car tried to > drive his way through the crowd." > > I'd make some wry comment at this point but these people are so beyond > stupid they don't even deserve that much. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I think you are confusing stupidity with desperation. A stupid person is the one who would have gone to the event to get somebody else a laptop, a desperate person would be the poor mom whose son is doing crappy in school and thinks an iBook would make the difference between her son getting into Harvard or being a crack dealer. Stupid people are the ones getting trampled on by the desperate storming the line. Either way this was not thought out very well by all parties. You have to ask why the school was ditching machines in working condition (wasted taxpayer money) for below fair market value in the first place. I can't wait for the class action lawsuit against the schoolboard on behalf of the many injured parties. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 16 18:46:54 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:46:54 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43027AEE.nailNMB11L41J@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > This is not only pathetic and ridiculous, it was entirely > irresponsible, both on the part of the school district and the herd > of jackasses that showed up to have a small chance to pay for a > used computer. And this is different than a buncha dweebs with a mailing list talking about "used computers"? 99% of the population would call us "pathetic and ridiculous". I think part of the story is broadcaster sensationalism, like when Oprah gave away cars. Except here who's promoting themselves? The newscasters? Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 16 18:49:18 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:49:18 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <43027B7E.nailNN61SKZTO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > You have to ask why the school was ditching machines in working > condition (wasted taxpayer money) I know of one large government organization in Washington DC that uses its PC's as nothing but 3270 emulators... and upgrades them every 1.5 to 2 years along with it's IT department recomendation. Tim. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 16 18:57:27 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:57:27 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> <43027B7E.nailNN61SKZTO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <014401c5a2be$41e80da0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Shoppa" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > > You have to ask why the school was ditching machines in working > > condition (wasted taxpayer money) > > I know of one large government organization in Washington DC that uses > its PC's as nothing but 3270 emulators... and upgrades them every 1.5 to > 2 years along with it's IT department recomendation. > > Tim. Since when does government (you know the entity that can actually just tax people more or print more money as needed) care about wasting money. A schoolsystem gets allot of their operating budget from local taxes, so I would think they might want to be smarter about showing how wasteful they are with the locals money (since they are close enough to get lynched by those taxpayers). From news at computercollector.com Tue Aug 16 19:03:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:01 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <43027AEE.nailNMB11L41J@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200508170011.j7H0BwpO095552@keith.ezwind.net> >>> I think part of the story is broadcaster sensationalism, like when Oprah gave away cars. Except here who's promoting themselves? The newscasters? Geez, Tim, now THAT was a stupid comment. You think "Humans stampede over computer sale" isn't legitimate local news and is merely media self-promotion? >>> 99% of the population would call us "pathetic and ridiculous". At least that point is accurate -- must've been looking in a mirror when you wrote it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:47 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > This is not only pathetic and ridiculous, it was entirely > irresponsible, both on the part of the school district and the herd of > jackasses that showed up to have a small chance to pay for a used > computer. And this is different than a buncha dweebs with a mailing list talking about "used computers"? 99% of the population would call us "pathetic and ridiculous". I think part of the story is broadcaster sensationalism, like when Oprah gave away cars. Except here who's promoting themselves? The newscasters? Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 17:28:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:28:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altair serial port update In-Reply-To: <200508100626.j7A6QuUP016112@keith.ezwind.net> from "Director" at Aug 10, 5 01:17:19 am Message-ID: > > OK. I have a question about how this list works. This message just came > through today. I could swear that I saw replies to this email two days ago. I've just had a burst of what seem to be old messages too. > There seem to be 3 or 4 people who get these emails immediately and reply to > them and I don't see the originals until much later when I get 65 emails at > once from this list. The last part I understand, I think, the list is > moderated, and the moderator can't do this all day every day. I also see Well, I'm subscribed to the cctalk list, which I thought was unmoderated. So that can't be the whole story. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 17:48:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:48:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bit Banger was Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <001e01c5a1fe$ad9c6480$0300a8c0@downstairs2> from "Michael Holley" at Aug 15, 5 06:05:50 pm Message-ID: > > An early example of a bit banger serial interface was the Motorola 6800 > MIKBUG Monitor ROM. It used a parallel interface chip (MC6820 PIA) as a The earliest desktop comuter I know of with a bit-banged serial port is the HP9830. There were 2 serial interfaces for that machine, I'll probably get the model numbers wrong, but here goes. The 11205 was a hardware serial interface, using TTL shift registers, etc. You set the baud rate in hardware (links or switches on the PCB), the 'computer side' of the interface looked much the same as the other interfaces for the 98x0 series, it was commonly used to link up serial peripherals, printers, etc. The 11206 was a bit-banger. It worked with a terminal emulator ROM which turned the 9830 + 9866 into a printing terminal with local storage (in the BASIC program area of the 9830's memory, which could then be saved on cassette and loaded back again). The baudf rate was set by a keyboard command, anything from 3 to 440 baud IIRC (strange limits, those...) I have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a minicomputer. Anyone know of one? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 17:51:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:51:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bit Banger was Analog modem emulator? In-Reply-To: <20050816014613.DBPI3347.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> from "Brian L. Stuart" at Aug 15, 5 08:44:41 pm Message-ID: > > That reminds me or another little machine from Motorola. They > called it the Educator II (and was the first computer I ever > owned). Their cassette interface worked pretty much the same > way. They toggled a pin on the PIA in software for a simple > FM encoding at 110 baud. Even the receive side was software. Many microcomputer cassette interfaces are bit-banged. It works quite well for that application, because you know when data could be coming from the cassette (the user has executed a LOAD command or whatever it's called), so you can put the microprocesosr into a loop looking for transitions on the input pin. It works less well for linking to a terminal, because you have know idea when the user is going to press a key :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 18:19:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:19:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 16, 5 10:41:28 am Message-ID: > You can use HP-Term or AdvanceLink on any PC. They emulate a HP 2393/2397 > terminal including color and graphics. Both programs can be found on I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA card in an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 17:55:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:55:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050816042927.F06E573029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Aug 16, 5 00:29:27 am Message-ID: > Back in college, I took electronics for non-EE majors. The first half of > the course dealt with analog electronics (including the analog > characteristics of transistors) and while most of the other students had an > easy time with that portion, I struggled hard and I *still* don't quite > understand the operating characteristics of a transistor, or what exactly > the difference is between a PNP and NPN transistor. Basic difference : polarity of all the voltages. For an NPN transistor, the collector is +ve wrt the emitter, the base is baised towards the +ve supply too. For a PNP transistor, the collector is -ve wrt the emitter, etc. In fact, if you take a circuit using an NPN transistor, reverse the supply polarity, the polarity of input and output signals. and any polarised components (diodes, etc), then put a PNP transistor in of the same characteristics, it should do much the same thing Do you have Horrowitz and Hill 'The Art of Electronics'? If not, buy it. If you do have it, read it :-). > > Second half the course though, was digital electronics which I found > trivial, although most of the other students had real difficulty with the > concept of +5V being a logical 1 (what? 5 = 1? What? What the hell are > you talking about?) and the less said about Boolean algebra, the better 8-P > > And if programmer can't grasp the difference between equality and > assignment, then heaven help us when you get to pointers ... I'm no programmer, which is probably why I had no problem with the differnce between equality (means a test with an XOR gate) and assignment (means a load into a D-type) :-). And pointers didn't worry me either. Thing is, I understood the PDP11/45 microcode before I tried to learn C... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 18:40:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:40:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Antique messages In-Reply-To: <17153.60498.630000.602058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 16, 5 09:38:26 am Message-ID: > > Am I the only one getting fifty or so week-old messages from cctalk? No, it's happening to me too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 18:45:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 00:45:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508161542.LAA21853@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 16, 5 11:27:05 am Message-ID: > > I have a disk drive - a (relatively) modern sealed unit - which appears > to have mechanical trouble. The noise it makes spinning up says to my > ear "bearing friction". Maybe, maybe not... Does it still work reliably (in other words, could it be a headcrash?) > > I'm considering taking it apart and lubing the bearing. Of course, I've never done this, but I can possibly give you some problems you'll have to work arounds 1) You will probably have to remove the platters and heads. Apart from the obvious problem of contamination, you also need to keep the alignment precise. This is something that's not necessary when the drive is first assmebled, it's assembled, and _then_ it's low-level formatted. But you need to be able to read the existing data on the drive, right? 2) Dismanting the motor to get to the bearings is going to be non-trivial, if it's even possible. I would assume it's assembled on a press, it may not be possible to get the parts to separate again without damage. 3) A few weeks back we had a thread where somebody stated that the lubricant in hard disk bearings was critical, as it must not creep over the platters (most lubricants do). -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 16 19:26:53 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Subject: Bondwell Model 2 web page up In-Reply-To: <200508162127.j7GLRb1G094081@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508162127.j7GLRb1G094081@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4302844D.9070101@pacbell.net> Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I feel like such an idiot these days...when I was at leading edge [the > makers of the Model M and Model D]...(as an intern) in exchange for cleaning > out the attic of all the old Comdex stuff - old computers, software, posters > etc. One of the machines I ended up taking was a the 8088 version of the > Bondwell 2...it was a neat machine, even looked the same...15 years later I > have no idea what I did with it...probably threw it out when I got the > latest hot rod 286 or something. > > Please kick me > -Chandra That was the Bondwell Model 8. It came out the same time as the Model 2, had 512 KB of DRAM, had an 8088 that ran at 4.77 MHz, had the same 640x200 LCD except with a backlight. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 16 20:06:05 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050816180414.P90090@shell.lmi.net> > I think you are confusing stupidity with desperation. A stupid person is the > one who would have gone to the event to get somebody else a laptop, a > desperate person would be the poor mom whose son is doing crappy in school > and thinks an iBook would make the difference between her son getting into > Harvard or being a crack dealer. an iBook would help her kid become a crack dealer, so that he wouldn't be stuck with going to Harvard? From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 16 20:19:16 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:19:16 -0500 Subject: Antique messages References: Message-ID: <001e01c5a2c9$b0159da0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It is not a coincidence that right when the antique messages flowed, I asked for another person to help gate messages to cctalk. Jay From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 16 20:30:46 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:30:46 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> <20050816180414.P90090@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <017901c5a2cb$4b0114b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > > I think you are confusing stupidity with desperation. A stupid person is the > > one who would have gone to the event to get somebody else a laptop, a > > desperate person would be the poor mom whose son is doing crappy in school > > and thinks an iBook would make the difference between her son getting into > > Harvard or being a crack dealer. > > an iBook would help her kid become a crack dealer, so that he wouldn't be > stuck with going to Harvard? > No! Some people think that a child cannot learn anything in gradeschool if he does not have a computer. My comment was making fun of the parent who thinks acquiring a laptop will make their child smarter (and go to Harvard) instead of flunking out without one (and turning into a crack dealer). I graduated highschool in 1986, and there were a few Tandy machines there plus a few IBM XT's that some of the students could use if they were into computers. The computer lab instructor was also one of the math professors and would show us punch cards saying how much easier we had it with disk drives. Most of the students at my school did not even get their hands on computers while going there, but of course many of us had machines at home (Timex 2068 and C64 in my case). Looking back on it I don't see how not having a dedicated personal computer (iBook for instance) in the classroom would have affected my ability to learn. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 16 22:17:00 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:17:00 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:01 EDT." <200508170011.j7H0BwpO095552@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200508170317.j7H3H0EV025032@mwave.heeltoe.com> huh. time for me to make a kill file for this mailing list... (and my first top posting! :-) -brad "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: >>>> I think part of the story is broadcaster sensationalism, like when Oprah >gave away cars. Except here who's promoting themselves? The newscasters? > >Geez, Tim, now THAT was a stupid comment. > >You think "Humans stampede over computer sale" isn't legitimate local news >and is merely media self-promotion? > >>>> 99% of the population would call us "pathetic and ridiculous". > >At least that point is accurate -- must've been looking in a mirror when you >wrote it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa >Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:47 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > >> This is not only pathetic and ridiculous, it was entirely >> irresponsible, both on the part of the school district and the herd of >> jackasses that showed up to have a small chance to pay for a used >> computer. > >And this is different than a buncha dweebs with a mailing list talking about >"used computers"? 99% of the population would call us "pathetic and >ridiculous". > >I think part of the story is broadcaster sensationalism, like when Oprah >gave away cars. Except here who's promoting themselves? The newscasters? > >Tim. > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 16 23:30:03 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:30:03 -0700 Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ Message-ID: <305ca5fe88d69a3c5f0d86e9039991f6@bitsavers.org> If someone is nearby.. http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/equip_list.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 17 01:42:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > I think you are confusing stupidity with desperation. A stupid person is the > one who would have gone to the event to get somebody else a laptop, a > desperate person would be the poor mom whose son is doing crappy in school > and thinks an iBook would make the difference between her son getting into > Harvard or being a crack dealer. Stupid people are the ones getting trampled > on by the desperate storming the line. To this I can only respond: Dignity (dig' ni tee) - it's not just a word in the dictionary. Used in a sentence: There is no dignity in a herd of 5,550 jackasses. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Aug 17 03:20:46 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 01:20:46 -0700 Subject: Bit Banger was Analog modem emulator? References: Message-ID: <4302F352.6FDEFC03@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a > minicomputer. Anyone know of one? The HP 2116, 2115, 2114 minis (1966-70) used bit-banged serial. In addition to bit-banging for a single device, there was an I/O interface for handling up to 16 terminals via bit-banging, the interface being - in essence - merely a 16-bit parallel port with each terminal assigned to one of the 16 I/O bits. This was used by the 2000A timeshared BASIC system. (Between bit-banged I/O for multiple terminals, interpreting the BASIC programs and timesharing overhead, it's amazing the processor found any time to do anything 'useful'.) From cc at corti-net.de Wed Aug 17 03:25:52 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:25:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA card in > an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) Ehm, well, if I had been correct, I wouldn't have said 'PC', since a LGP-30 is a 'PC', too, by the terms of its time ;-)) But IBM PC does not say anything about a specific graphics card. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Wed Aug 17 03:50:33 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:50:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: LGP-21 Message-ID: I've scanned some documents for the LGP-21 (peripheral options, diagnostic programs etc.) and put them on our ftp server: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp21/docs There's a readme file in each directory. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 04:55:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:55:05 +0000 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124272505.16428.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 00:45 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > 1) You will probably have to remove the platters and heads. Apart from > the obvious problem of contamination, you also need to keep the alignment > precise. This is something that's not necessary when the drive is first > assmebled, it's assembled, and _then_ it's low-level formatted. But you > need to be able to read the existing data on the drive, right? And even if you don't want the data and just want the drive working again, as it's a modern unit you'll have to find the right LLF utility for that specific drive - which may be easier said than done! It'd be interesting to know what data recovery companies do when they get a drive with ruined bearings (or spindle motor) and need to get the data off. Maybe that's the point where it gets *really* tricky and they have to sample data from each surface seperately and assemble by hand / in software... cheers Jules From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 07:04:27 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:04:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rodime RO200 series Message-ID: <20050817120427.61178.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I've recently acquired a TORCH-725 which has this RO200 series hard drive in it, trouble is when I took everything out of the TORCH case for first inspection I heard something 'ting' off one of the platters in the drive. Opening it up to have a look, well a little dust can't be as bad as debris that goes 'ting', I found a 12mm long 2.7mm dia. roll pin lying in one corner. Anyone have a clue where this may have come from? Dare I power the drive without it? This may eventually be the only option if I can't re-install the pin. While this is an RO200 series I don't know which one. The series seems to run from 5MB to 40MB and I'd like to know which one this is likely to be. Assuming this drive needs to be replaced can I use a 40MB SCSI drive on the Torch SCSI board and bypass the SCSI to ST506 interface? This would be the prefered eventual solution as I have a few 20MB to 200MB SCSI drives I could use. Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 07:32:29 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:32:29 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43032E5D.5010302@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>Peace... Sridhar > > > Hey, good to see you re-surface again. > Thanks. 8-) It's good to be back. Peace... Sridhar From allain at panix.com Wed Aug 17 07:50:59 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:50:59 -0400 Subject: Used laptop stampede References: Message-ID: <00c301c5a32a$52183800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Sellam said > There is no dignity in a herd of 5,550 jackasses. Sure there is. The ones who did not stampede. The ones o saved a place in line for others' trips to the barhroom, etc. I'd say there's little dignity on this list when it goes onto a group rant however. Who tends to lead us into such rants? John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 17 08:46:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:46:30 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> One last thing is that you may need to make some special spanners >> to undo some of the fasteners. der> I've taken apart a couple of drives that were sufficiently dead der> I didn't care about them, and I didn't need anything but a set der> of torxes. I suppose this drive may be different, but certainly der> all the things I can _see_ are simple torxes.... Sometimes you'll run into "tamper-resistant Torx" which is regular torx with a pin in the center of the screw. You can get bits for that easily at professional tool outlets (any of the eletronic tools by mail order outfits will have them). Bits are labelled TT-n (instead of just T-n) for size n. If you have suitable size carbide drills, you can make your own out of regular bits. Or you could use a suitable tool to grind away the pin in the screw... paul From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 17 10:27:04 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:27:04 -0400 Subject: ever re-lubricate a 9-track tape? Message-ID: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> [somehow this question makes me think of sex] Does anyone have experience re-lubricating 9-track tapes? I have some old 9-track 1/2" tapes which appear to be in good shape. I baked them but they end up squeeking in the drive and eventually the drive says "tape stuck". After reading this http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/services/elib/papers/supporting/pdf/p2.pdf I think the tape needs to be re-lubricated. Once document I found made a cavalier reference to using a silicone based libricant (which is what made me think of astroglide :-) but it didn't give any details. silicone = organosilicon polymer used in lubricants http://www.wcaslab.com/tech/silicone.htm astroglide = well, you figure it out www.astroglide.com anyone have any experience with this? it seems like something to be done with great care... -brad ps: the astroglide reference is just there for humor sake. I'm sure there is a more appropriate industrial grade lubricant used on tapes. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Aug 17 11:06:13 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:06:13 -0500 Subject: ever re-lubricate a 9-track tape? In-Reply-To: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43036075.4070707@jbrain.com> Brad Parker wrote: > >ps: the astroglide reference is just there for humor sake. I'm sure there >is a more appropriate industrial grade lubricant used on tapes. > > Sadly, I will be of NO help in this thread, but I wanted to note that post made the day here. I must be a sheltered soul, I'd never heard of this product. But, you learn something new every day... Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 17 13:20:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:20:53 Subject: ever re-lubricate a 9-track tape? In-Reply-To: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:27 AM 8/17/05 -0400, you wrote: > >[somehow this question makes me think of sex] > >Does anyone have experience re-lubricating 9-track tapes? > >I have some old 9-track 1/2" tapes which appear to be in good shape. I >baked them but they end up squeeking in the drive and eventually the >drive says "tape stuck". > >After reading this > > http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/services/elib/papers/supporting/pdf/p2.pdf That's a dammed good article. Anyone intersted in recovering HP tapes should read the case historys, particularly the one about the Challanger. Their problem seems to be similar to what happens with the old HP tapes. Anyone want to try unsticking some HP tapes? Joe From infomagic at localisp.com Wed Aug 17 12:35:07 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:35:07 -0400 Subject: Bit banger /analog modem Message-ID: <144d78ee24483414a3e10cacae6f553c@localisp.com> Tony wrote: have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a minicomputer. Anyone know of one? -tony On the RCA 1802, there was an output line named "Q", and there were two instructions that directly set and reset the line. I believe the CPU had a built-in D-flip-flop for keeping it stable. It's my understanding that this line was often used to drive serial output. You might be able to locate software for any of the ELF computers that would show this use. I'll see what I can dig up... -John M. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 17 12:53:21 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:53:21 -0700 Subject: Rescue of DEC Gear in Nashville, TN In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200508171053.21638.lbickley@bickleywest.com> The following gear is available for local pickup or pickup by shipper from Nashville, TN. The cost: FREE This is a true rescue - the space where the gear is located is to be rented and will be given to scrappers if not picked up within a week or two. Here's an approximate inventory: 1 PDP11/73 processor - 1 Mb memory (maybe more) 2 RL01 drives (one may not be functional) 1 RL02 drive Fujitsu Winchester drive (probably around 75 MB) 2 RX02 drives 1 dual RX50 drive 1 TK50 tape unit + miscellaneous disk packs, many floppies, cabinets, etc. BTW: After discussing the "cabinets" (racks) with the owner, their description sounded to me like standard DEC Corporate cabinets - except that one has a built in console "table". Please respond directly to me ( lbickley at bickleywest.com ) as the owner has asked me to handle the "logistics" of the rescue. First come first serve - exception - anyone taking "all" of the above has priority over partial takers. Note that there are RL02 packs in the mix - and I already have agreed to pay for their shipping - as they may contain historically important sources. If so, I will make sure Al Kossow (bitsavers.org) gets images of the sources. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 17 12:55:49 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <1124272505.16428.39.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1124272505.16428.39.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200508171756.NAA11109@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And even if you don't want the data and just want the drive working > again, as it's a modern unit you'll have to find the right LLF > utility for that specific drive - which may be easier said than done! Sending a FORMAT UNIT command isn't enough? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 17 13:04:47 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:04:47 -0700 Subject: ever re-lubricate a 9-track tape? In-Reply-To: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508171527.j7HFR4mC020959@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200508171104.51402.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 17 August 2005 08:27, Brad Parker wrote: > [somehow this question makes me think of sex] > > Does anyone have experience re-lubricating 9-track tapes? While I haven't personally had any of my 9 track tapes re-lubricated, I have found that used, cleaned, re-lubricated 9-track tapes are much more reliable and error free than original "new" tapes I've purchased. A bonus - used tapes are cheaper! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 13:08:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:08:44 +0000 Subject: Rodime RO200 series In-Reply-To: <20050817120427.61178.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050817120427.61178.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124302124.16444.86.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 13:04 +0100, lee davison wrote: > Opening it up to have a look, well a little dust can't be as > bad as debris that goes 'ting', I found a 12mm long 2.7mm dia. > roll pin lying in one corner. Anyone have a clue where this > may have come from? Dare I power the drive without it? This > may eventually be the only option if I can't re-install the > pin. I suppose there are only a limited number of places inside the drive that it could have come from... > While this is an RO200 series I don't know which one. The > series seems to run from 5MB to 40MB and I'd like to know > which one this is likely to be. Do you know if it's an 200E-series drive or a plain old 200 series? Capacity seems to be dictated by number of heads (which you can count with the lid off!), but the E series drives were capable of more cylinders than the others... > Assuming this drive needs to be replaced can I use a 40MB > SCSI drive on the Torch SCSI board and bypass the SCSI to > ST506 interface? This would be the prefered eventual solution > as I have a few 20MB to 200MB SCSI drives I could use. Hmmm... not sure, but I presume the software expects the bridge board to be present as it'll likely look for the drive geometry stored on the first sector of the disk, then issue a vendor-specific command to the bridge board to tell it the capacity of the drive that's connected to it. That's not going to work in SCSI-land... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 13:10:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:10:40 +0000 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508171756.NAA11109@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1124272505.16428.39.camel@weka.localdomain> <200508171756.NAA11109@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1124302240.16428.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-17 at 13:55 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > And even if you don't want the data and just want the drive working > > again, as it's a modern unit you'll have to find the right LLF > > utility for that specific drive - which may be easier said than done! > > Sending a FORMAT UNIT command isn't enough? Hmm, I was assuming this was an IDE disk - I admit to only coming into this halfway through though! :-) From wacarder at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 12:54:26 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:54:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ Message-ID: <796518.1124301267248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Aug 17, 2005 12:30 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ > > If someone is nearby.. > > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/equip_list.html If anyone is in Australia and is willing to collect and ship some items to the USA for me, I will be glad to pay you for your time and effort. I have attempted to contact the owner of these items but have not received a response. I would very much like to have the spare 11/40 CPU set since I have both a functional 11/40 and 11/35, as well as a sick 11/35. My 11/40 is part of a historic functional display of a 1970s timesharing academic computer center and I would like to be able to have spares to keep it up and running. If anyone in Australia is willing to help, please contact me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. Thanks, Ashley From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Aug 17 13:16:43 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 05 18:16:43 GMT Subject: drive repair tips? Message-ID: <0508171816.AA09736@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > Sending a FORMAT UNIT command isn't enough? It's *supposed* to do a true LLF on a Classic HDD, but I very strongly suspect (close to certainty) that on modern drives it's a dummy, something like "write zeros to all logical blocks" as if by ordinary writes. They probably have stuff like embedded servo (a la RL02) and cannot be LLFed "from scratch", i.e., from a totally degaussed or misaligned state. MS From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 17 13:47:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? In-Reply-To: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050814185500.107C497C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20050817114458.M1763@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Rick Bensene wrote: > Actually, it's most likely not a CNC controller. It's probably too early to > be a "Computized Numerical Control" device. There's probably no computer at > all in there. There's an indicator/switch labelled "ASCII". It's clearly late 70's/early 80's vintage, so it's likely computer-controlled, if not containing a computer, though there's enough board area for a Z80 system. It's very clearly machine tool control, either metal-fabricating (specialized mill/drill etc) or a manufacturing controller (stamps out condom wrappers, whatever). From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 17 14:00:13 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >>> simple-minded of people :) Variable reassignment is a new-fangled idea. Mathemeticians would once have corrected you: i' = i + 1 variable values never changed, it would be considered an error. Clearly programmatic convenience took over in comipiler tradition. And I disagree i = i + 1 is not always obvious: if ( i = i + 1 ) ... If i represents a logical variable or function or subroutine, then then result is false. Modern languages assume that any non-zero value is true, but that's not the case for all languages, and "true plus one" or "false plus one" would generate a compiler error. Even if you assume i is a numeric variable, and a numerical value of zero is logically false, then the statement will be true for a large number of values of i, depending on word length, how many representations zero has in the machine (1's comp? 2's? float? normalized?) et cetera... PS: I'm no purist, I prefer perl; I simply acknowledge I'm swimming in shit. From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 17 14:04:13 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? In-Reply-To: References: <200508091700.j79H02D4017884@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050817120317.D1763@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Unibus wrote: >> Others, can not determine what they are. Any ideas? I can go back and >> 7504 ??? >> 7506 ??? >> 7515 ??? >> 7517 ??? These could be date codes, BTW... From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Aug 17 14:33:49 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:33:49 -0400 Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050817152252.058c59d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>>I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >>>>simple-minded of people :) You might want to check your attribution -- Sellam wrote that, not Fred... >[snip]variable values never changed, Then they should have defined 'em as constants... ;-) >[snip] If i represents a logical variable or function or subroutine, >then result is false. So it would've been true if it was an illogical variable? ;-) >PS: I'm no purist, I prefer perl; I simply acknowledge I'm >swimming in shit. Instead of swimming in it, just stand up and find out it's only knee deep - try Python. ;-) Anything after the first sentence, please consider it written with *extreme* sarcasm intended... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 17 15:30:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ever re-lubricate a 9-track tape? In-Reply-To: <43036075.4070707@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Aug 17, 5 11:06:13 am" Message-ID: <200508172030.NAA12644@floodgap.com> > > ps: the astroglide reference is just there for humor sake. I'm sure there > > is a more appropriate industrial grade lubricant used on tapes. > Sadly, I will be of NO help in this thread, but I wanted to note that > post made the day here. I must be a sheltered soul, I'd never heard of > this product. But, you learn something new every day... Actually, I have samples in my office (I'm not kidding, I give them out to patients who have difficulties with "intimate lubrication"). Drop by if you're interested in picking up some. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 17 15:55:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > >>> simple-minded of people :) Sorry, but I was NOT the one who said that. Probably Sellam. I DO see how it is not obvious, since I teach beginning programming students. Students who are SO beginning, that N = N + 1 is NOT obvious. Many of them are actually otherwise intelligent, but they have not learned how to think procedurally, and have been trained to think that '=' means that two expressions are interchangable with each other. And, therefore, if N is interchangable with 1 N = 1 AND N is interchangable with N + 1 N = N + 1 then, by "inductive logic", all integers are equal! That would result in the immediate cessation of the universe as we know it (and probably replacement with something even weirder). > Variable reassignment is a new-fangled idea. Mathemeticians would > once have corrected you: > i' = i + 1 > variable values never changed, it would be considered an error. thereby wasting the most important capability of a variable! > Clearly programmatic convenience took over in comipiler tradition. > > > And I disagree > > i = i + 1 > > is not always obvious: > > > if ( i = i + 1 ) ... if you mean that as IF (I .EQ. (I + 1) ) . . . then the distinction between assignment and equality is significant. We also must not forget numeric representations come into play. float X; /* as IEEE 32 bit single precision */ X = 2147483648.0; if (X == (X + 1)) . . . can come out as TRUE!! (again: do NOT show that to a mathematician!) > PS: I'm no purist, I prefer perl; I simply acknowledge I'm > swimming in shit. ... the only thing as common as Hydrogen and stupidity! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 15:55:29 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook Message-ID: <26289592.1124312129618.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> On Saturday 13 August 2005 19:38, Al Kossow wrote: >> If you use XXDP, you want a copy of this. >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/ >> PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf > > Al, > > What a great manual!!! This will save hours of rummaging through XXDP > listings to find switch settings! > > Thanks, > Lyle Ditto what Lyle said. This manual has everything spelled out. I won't have to scratch my head any more trying to figure out how to run the XXDP diagnostics with a blindfold on. Thanks Al !!! Ashley From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 17 16:28:36 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:28:36 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Rescue of DEC Gear in Nashville, TN (More info on racks...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200508171428.36427.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I received some questions on the racks - here's more information from the owner: "I believe all the cabinets are original DEC. The main cabinet is a 'DEC DataSystem' rack about 5.5' tall. The RL02 and the Winchester are housed in a DEC cabinet about 3 to 4 ft tall. Finally there is the "desk" which holds the floppies." >From his verbal description of the "desk", I believe it is similar to the early DEC Decmate enclosure/desk. Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Rescue of DEC Gear in Nashville, TN Date: Wednesday 17 August 2005 10:53 From: Lyle Bickley To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" The following gear is available for local pickup or pickup by shipper from Nashville, TN. The cost: FREE This is a true rescue - the space where the gear is located is to be rented and will be given to scrappers if not picked up within a week or two. Here's an approximate inventory: 1 PDP11/73 processor - 1 Mb memory (maybe more) 2 RL01 drives (one may not be functional) 1 RL02 drive Fujitsu Winchester drive (probably around 75 MB) 2 RX02 drives 1 dual RX50 drive 1 TK50 tape unit + miscellaneous disk packs, many floppies, cabinets, etc. BTW: After discussing the "cabinets" (racks) with the owner, their description sounded to me like standard DEC Corporate cabinets - except that one has a built in console "table". Please respond directly to me ( lbickley at bickleywest.com ) as the owner has asked me to handle the "logistics" of the rescue. First come first serve - exception - anyone taking "all" of the above has priority over partial takers. Note that there are RL02 packs in the mix - and I already have agreed to pay for their shipping - as they may contain historically important sources. If so, I will make sure Al Kossow (bitsavers.org) gets images of the sources. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 17 16:34:20 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >>>>> simple-minded of people :) > > > Sorry, but I was NOT the one who said that. Probably Sellam. Oh sorry, yes, I realized you had elaborated on this when I replied, however, my mail composer did not and I didn't notice it did it's simplistic fiddling. My bad! Probably a programming error caused by a compiler parsing error :-) > Many of them are actually otherwise intelligent, but they have not learned > how to think procedurally, and have been trained to think that '=' means > that two expressions are interchangable with each other. It's just these sorts of circumstances that justify physical violence. > thereby wasting the most important capability of a variable! For computing, yes. For humans, it's confusion! Imagine if astronomers got to change h! Bastards. > float X; /* as IEEE 32 bit single precision */ > X = 2147483648.0; > if (X == (X + 1)) . . . can come out as TRUE!! > (again: do NOT show that to a mathematician!) But as Alan Turing pointed out, floating point arithmetic is NOT arithmetic. It's a valuable simulation (approximation) of arithmetic. Your example illustrates that perfectly. The need to normalize is the 2x4-upside-the-head hint that all is not well. The horrors involved are worse than Perl and BASIC combined. float X; /* as IEEE 32 bit single precision */ int n; X = 2147483648.0; n= 0; while (X == (X+1)) { printf "fa la la...\n"; ++n; } print ("%f combobulates %d fa la la's.\n", X, n); Great! We love it! >> PS: I'm no purist, I prefer perl; I simply acknowledge I'm >> swimming in shit. > > ... the only thing as common as Hydrogen and stupidity! Eh, I just take a shower and bury the bodies well. From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 16:36:13 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: Atari ST software Message-ID: <20050817213613.50826.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, Does anyone have any Atari ST disks that you can send me? I have a 520ST, but I don't have a single diskette for it. Thanks! Steve in Southern California. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 17 16:46:06 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050817144512.N1763@fiche.wps.com> Crap, I'm an idiot: float X; /* as IEEE 32 bit single precision */ int n; X = 2147483648.0; n= 0; while (X == (X+1)) { printf "fa la la...\n"; ++n; X= X + 1; } print ("%f combobulates %d fa la la's.\n", X, n); From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Aug 17 17:00:17 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:00:17 -0400 Subject: WANTED: Atari ST software In-Reply-To: <20050817213613.50826.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050817213613.50826.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4303B371.2020908@atarimuseum.com> Steve - What do you need? Curt steven stengel wrote: >Hello, > >Does anyone have any Atari ST disks that you can send >me? > >I have a 520ST, but I don't have a single diskette for >it. > >Thanks! >Steve in Southern California. > > > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.11/74 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 17 17:27:13 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050817151136.D17858@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > Many of them are actually otherwise intelligent, but they have not learned > > how to think procedurally, and have been trained to think that '=' means > > that two expressions are interchangable with each other. > It's just these sorts of circumstances that justify physical > violence. The college administration (first against the wall when the revolution comes?) get seriously upset about physical violence. Classes started today. They "are going to get back to me" in the next few days to tell me which classes I'm te3aching! Besides, it's not the fault of the students, it's just the concepts that they learned in "solving for the value of a variable", etc. in algebra in the school system. > But as Alan Turing pointed out, floating point arithmetic is NOT > arithmetic. It's a valuable simulation (approximation) of > arithmetic. Your example illustrates that perfectly. The need to > normalize is the 2x4-upside-the-head hint that all is not well. > The horrors involved are worse than Perl and BASIC combined. Students who have never used a low level language, (INCLUDING CS GRADUATES in many cases!), have a VERY difficult time accepting the concept that floating point is an approximation, and therefore a lot of "ordinary" arithmetic principles don't apply. I try to get them to never use an equality test with floating point. I teach a beginning "Computer Math" class (when we can get a quorum). In addition to the "increment by a unit smaller than the resolution", another exaggeratedly simplistic example that I use to try to get them to understand the inherent differences from "math" that floating point approximations will introduce is: "in decimal, using your calculator, divide 1 by 3. write down the result, and turn off the calculator for 24 hours. Then take the number that you wrote down (0.3333333) and multiply it by 3. EXPLAIN what is wrong with the calculator to not give 1.0." > float X; /* as IEEE 32 bit single precision */ > int n; long n; > > X = 2147483648.0; > n= 0; > while (X == (X+1)) { > printf "fa la la...\n"; > ++n; ++X; > } > print ("%f combobulates %ld fa la la's.\n", X, n); > > Great! We love it! or, as Dwight said, "unless i is infinity" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 17 17:55:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:55:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817151136.D17858@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 17, 5 03:27:13 pm Message-ID: > Students who have never used a low level language, (INCLUDING CS GRADUATES > in many cases!), have a VERY difficult time accepting the concept that > floating point is an approximation, and therefore a lot of "ordinary" > arithmetic principles don't apply. Thrivial example... On most (if not all) calculators, try something like 1 E 20 [enter] 1 + 1 E 20 - (Ooops, that's in RPN, I've forgotten how to do it on a normal calculator, try soemthing like 1 E20 + 1 = - 1 E 20 = ) Explain why the result is not 1 (OK, we all know the answer here...) > I try to get them to never use an equality test with floating point. > > I teach a beginning "Computer Math" class (when we can get a quorum). > In addition to the "increment by a unit smaller than the resolution", > another exaggeratedly simplistic example that I use to try to get them to > understand the inherent differences from "math" that floating point > approximations will introduce is: > "in decimal, using your calculator, divide 1 by 3. > write down the result, and turn off the calculator for 24 hours. > Then take the number that you wrote down (0.3333333) and multiply it by 3. > EXPLAIN what is wrong with the calculator to not give 1.0." And hope nobody has an HP49, which does this _symbolically_ and gives the exact answer... More interesting, why do some lesser calculators apparently give the right answere if you do 1 / 3 = * 3 = ? And why do I object to such designs ? SIN((\pi) in radians is another favorite of mine, any calculator which gives 0 is useless, unless it's doing it symbolically (the sine of 3.1415926535.. truncated to a finite number of digits is _not_ zero. There is no justification for assuming that said truncated number carries on as \pi) Another example, taken from the HP15C 'Advanced Functions Handbook' (one of the few manuals for a pocket calculator that explains why the machine sometimes gives the wrong answer!). For non-negative numbers, sqrt and x^2 are inverse operations. Enter any number, take the sqaure root 100 times in succession. Now square the result of that 100 times. For numerical (as opposed to symbollic) calculators, you'll get an answr of 0 for inputs such that 0<=x<1, and 1 for inputs such that x>=1. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 17 17:29:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:29:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 17, 5 10:25:52 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA card in > > an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) > > Ehm, well, if I had been correct, I wouldn't have said 'PC', since a > LGP-30 is a 'PC', too, by the terms of its time ;-)) > But IBM PC does not say anything about a specific graphics card. You said 'any PC'. OK, I will read 'PC' to mean 'IBM PC compatible computer'. thus rulling out things like LGP-30s, PDP8s, etc. You did not, however, specify a video card. I therefore assumed that any PC-compatible video card would work, and the original IBM MDA card is one such. In other words, a 5150 with an MDA card is a member of the set of 'any PCs' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 17 17:38:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:38:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rodime RO200 series In-Reply-To: <20050817120427.61178.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Aug 17, 5 01:04:27 pm Message-ID: > > I've recently acquired a TORCH-725 which has this RO200 > series hard drive in it, trouble is when I took everything > out of the TORCH case for first inspection I heard something > 'ting' off one of the platters in the drive. Opening it up > to have a look, well a little dust can't be as bad as debris > that goes 'ting', I found a 12mm long 2.7mm dia. roll pin > lying in one corner. Anyone have a clue where this may have > come from? Dare I power the drive without it? This may No real idea.... Look for a hole that could have taken it, I guess. Obvious candidates would be an end stop for the head movement, part of a flexiprint guide, or part of the positioner itself (am I correct that this drive uses a stepper motor to position the heads?) > eventually be the only option if I can't re-install the pin. > > While this is an RO200 series I don't know which one. The > series seems to run from 5MB to 40MB and I'd like to know > which one this is likely to be. > > Assuming this drive needs to be replaced can I use a 40MB > SCSI drive on the Torch SCSI board and bypass the SCSI to > ST506 interface? This would be the prefered eventual solution I doubt it. Most Torch machines used an OMTI 5000 series board, I think (the XXX certainly did, I think the rare SCSI plinth for the Beeb did too). Said board certainly supports multiple 'units' at one SCSI address (do most SCSI drives fo that). There's also something about reading the drive geometry from the first (zeroth?) sector of the drive, then sending some commands to the OMTI board. I doubt that modern SCSI drives will handle that correctly. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 17 18:41:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:41:48 -0500 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508171841.48344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Wednesday 17 August 2005 05:29 pm: > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA > > > card in an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) > > > > Ehm, well, if I had been correct, I wouldn't have said 'PC', since a > > LGP-30 is a 'PC', too, by the terms of its time ;-)) > > But IBM PC does not say anything about a specific graphics card. > > You said 'any PC'. OK, I will read 'PC' to mean 'IBM PC compatible > computer'. thus rulling out things like LGP-30s, PDP8s, etc. You did > not, however, specify a video card. I therefore assumed that any > PC-compatible video card would work, and the original IBM MDA card is > one such. > > In other words, a 5150 with an MDA card is a member of the set of 'any > PCs' \pedantic You can get "graphics" out of an MDA if you try hard enough. Lo-res, of course (line drawing chars and 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full shaded boxes in the 128-255 part of the character set). Also, an authentic MDA display has green pixels IIRC, so there's your colour. Or did you mean multi-colour? :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 18:51:30 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:51:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rodime RO200 series Message-ID: <20050817235130.70333.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> While this is an RO200 series I don't know which one. > Do you know if it's an 200E-series drive or a plain old 200 > series? It seems to be a plain old 200 series, at least the label says RO 200 series and not RO 200E series. No model number anywhere though. > Capacity seems to be dictated by number of heads (which you > can count with the lid off!) Curses! I didn't count and I don't want to open it up again unless I have to. I do remember that it is 'full' of platters though, and there is an arm to each surface. It's the first time I've seen a full height drive without room for an extra platter or two. Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 17 18:59:36 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050817164903.N17858@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Thrivial example... On most (if not all) calculators, try something like > 1 E 20 [enter] 1 + 1 E 20 - > (Ooops, that's in RPN, I've forgotten how to do it on a normal > calculator, try soemthing like 1 E20 + 1 = - 1 E 20 = ) > Explain why the result is not 1 (OK, we all know the answer here...) An excellent example. Unfortunately, some of them are using cereal box 4 function calculators, some of which won't permit input of 1E20, and may require different values from one to another. Hmmmm! If I come up with a similar simple example using the WINDOZE calculator, then I can kill two birds with one stone. (I think they fixed the bug in the Windoze calculator that caused the Windoze 3.1 calculator to come up with 3.11 - 3.10 => 0) > > Then take the number that you wrote down (0.3333333) and multiply it by 3. > > EXPLAIN what is wrong with the calculator to not give 1.0." > And hope nobody has an HP49, which does this _symbolically_ and gives the > exact answer... > More interesting, why do some lesser calculators apparently give the > right answere if you do 1 / 3 = * 3 = ? And why do I object to such > designs ? part of why I include the "extraneous" "write it down and turn off the calculator for 24 hours" > For non-negative numbers, sqrt and x^2 are inverse operations. Enter any > number, take the sqaure root 100 times in succession. Now square the > result of that 100 times. For numerical (as opposed to symbollic) > calculators, you'll get an answr of 0 for inputs such that 0<=x<1, and 1 > for inputs such that x>=1. Some of them do just fine and understand what is going on with squaring a square root. But some of them have SO little actual understanding of math that they don't get it. Teaching beginners is incredibly frustrating. But it makes it all worthwhile if/when they understand. ... and it is FANTASTIC when when SOME of them over the years go on to exceed my [admittedly very limited] abilities! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 17 19:03:01 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rodime RO200 series Message-ID: <20050818000302.16225.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Most Torch machines used an OMTI 5000 series board, I think This is a Xebec board, no identifying marks apart from 'Rev E04' > There's also something about reading the drive geometry from > the first (zeroth?) sector of the drive, then sending some > commands to the OMTI board. I doubt that modern SCSI drives > will handle that correctly. It sounds like it's the SCSI identify command. I remember using a WD chipset board with an Amiga to run two 40MB ST506 drives many years ago that would mostly work but would eventually fall over if you tried the identify command too many times. Writing raw data to a SCSI device is no problem so I may be able to make a proper SCSI drive look right. Guess I'd beter dust off the logic analyser sometime soon just in case it doesn't work. Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From CCTalk at catcorner.org Wed Aug 17 19:11:11 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:11:11 -0400 Subject: Ping Randy McLaughlin Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E60@mail.catcorner.org> Has anyone heard from Randy lately? Thanks, Kelly From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 19:14:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:14:44 -0500 Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? In-Reply-To: <20050817120317.D1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <200508091700.j79H02D4017884@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050817120317.D1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050817191444.3282b2c9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Unibus wrote: > > >> Others, can not determine what they are. Any ideas? I can go back > >and > > >> 7504 ??? > >> 7506 ??? > >> 7515 ??? > >> 7517 ??? > > These could be date codes, BTW... > I remember at one point having a bunch of TTL chips with 1974 date codes, and how confusing it could get. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 17 19:18:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing Message-ID: <200508180018.RAA21407@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Students who have never used a low level language, (INCLUDING CS GRADUATES >> in many cases!), have a VERY difficult time accepting the concept that >> floating point is an approximation, and therefore a lot of "ordinary" >> arithmetic principles don't apply. > >Thrivial example... On most (if not all) calculators, try something like > >1 E 20 [enter] 1 + 1 E 20 - > >(Ooops, that's in RPN, I've forgotten how to do it on a normal >calculator, try soemthing like 1 E20 + 1 = - 1 E 20 = ) > >Explain why the result is not 1 (OK, we all know the answer here...) > > Hi Sounds like a problem that involved a continuously running clock that incremented a floating point accumulator. When it started to saturate in about 18 days, they were no longer able to calculate differential time. Oh my, why didn't the missile fire? Here is another one. I wish to do multiple precision but all I have is a standard compiler that only does 32 bit math. I write some utilities that allow me to handle the simple task of extending the operations such that I can do a 64 bit integer divide by a 32 bit number. I was careful to only do integer operations! When I apply this new math to a XY table control, I notice that right in the middle of the table, as I step along, it jumps. Careful measurements of the size of the jump correspond to one LSB of the upper 32 bits of my multiple precision operations. So, what is wrong here? I also notice that the center of my XY table is coordinate 0,0 ( hint ). Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 19:20:56 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:20:56 -0500 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050817192056.282cff7a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:29:22 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA > > > card in an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) > > > > Ehm, well, if I had been correct, I wouldn't have said 'PC', since a > > > > LGP-30 is a 'PC', too, by the terms of its time ;-)) > > But IBM PC does not say anything about a specific graphics card. > > You said 'any PC'. OK, I will read 'PC' to mean 'IBM PC compatible > computer'. thus rulling out things like LGP-30s, PDP8s, etc. You did > not, however, specify a video card. I therefore assumed that any > PC-compatible video card would work, and the original IBM MDA card is > one such. > > In other words, a 5150 with an MDA card is a member of the set of 'any > PCs' > > -tony Well, perhaps then _simple_ graphics, i.e. stuff created using the line/box-draw characters in the MDA card. I distinctly remember enjoying playing a very graphical version of Othello on my dad's first-generation (PC-1) IBM machine with only an MDA card. I probably still have it somewhere. There are a lot of .BAS programs included with the first versions of PC-DOS. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 19:26:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:26:44 -0500 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508171841.48344.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200508171841.48344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050817192644.177999b6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:41:48 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Tony Duell declared on Wednesday 17 August 2005 05:29 pm: > > > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'd love to konw how they get colour and grapghics out of an MDA > > > > card in an original 5150 PC. You did say 'any PC' after all :-) > > > > > > Ehm, well, if I had been correct, I wouldn't have said 'PC', since > > > a LGP-30 is a 'PC', too, by the terms of its time ;-)) > > > But IBM PC does not say anything about a specific graphics card. > > > > You said 'any PC'. OK, I will read 'PC' to mean 'IBM PC compatible > > computer'. thus rulling out things like LGP-30s, PDP8s, etc. You did > > not, however, specify a video card. I therefore assumed that any > > PC-compatible video card would work, and the original IBM MDA card > > is one such. > > > > In other words, a 5150 with an MDA card is a member of the set of > > 'any PCs' > > \pedantic > You can get "graphics" out of an MDA if you try hard enough. Lo-res, > of course (line drawing chars and 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full shaded boxes in > the 128-255 part of the character set). > > Also, an authentic MDA display has green pixels IIRC, so there's your > colour. Or did you mean multi-colour? :) > \meta-pedant What do you mean when you refer to 'an authentic MDA display'? I ask, because my original IBM PC Monochrome monitor (bought at the most recent IUPUI auction where a number of people hecked me for bidding on it **) can be plugged into an original IBM EGA card and it becomes quite a nice graphical monitor. I ran Windows 3.0 on such a combination for a long while. (aprox. until I could afford a VGA card and grayscale VGA monitor). (** I paid $5 for it, but then also got a Compaq Portable III in the real leather carrying case for $10 so it wasn't _all_ overpriced.) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Aug 17 19:35:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:35:19 -0500 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <014401c5a2be$41e80da0$0500fea9@game> References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> <43027B7E.nailNN61SKZTO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <014401c5a2be$41e80da0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050817193519.0f204cdc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:57:27 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Shoppa" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: Used laptop stampede > > > > > You have to ask why the school was ditching machines in working > > > condition (wasted taxpayer money) > > > > I know of one large government organization in Washington DC that > > uses its PC's as nothing but 3270 emulators... and upgrades them > > every 1.5 to 2 years along with it's IT department recomendation. > > > > Tim. > > Since when does government (you know the entity that can actually just > tax people more or print more money as needed) care about wasting > money. A schoolsystem gets allot of their operating budget from local > taxes, so I would think they might want to be smarter about showing > how wasteful they are with the locals money (since they are close > enough to get lynched by those taxpayers). > > You'd be amazed at how wasteful school districts are with computer hardware money. I'm constantly amazed, at the auctions I attend. Most recently, it was a college auction, not a grade/high-school auction, but I found myself able to buy as many as several dozen Dell Pentium III machines for $5 each (I only bought six). Most sensible people will recognize that such hardware is still VERY usable. (I'll bring this comment back to semi-ontopic by mentioning that I was the person at that auction who got heckled when I tried to explain some of my bids by I was buying 'vintage' hardware.) Granted, I personally benefit greatly from the rapid-obsolescence-track they put all those systems on, as I no longer buy ANY computers new at retail. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 17 19:39:12 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:39:12 -0500 Subject: Used laptop stampede In-Reply-To: <20050817193519.0f204cdc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <013501c5a2bc$3f2221c0$0500fea9@game> <43027B7E.nailNN61SKZTO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <014401c5a2be$41e80da0$0500fea9@game> <20050817193519.0f204cdc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050817193806.052ca7b8@mail> At 07:35 PM 8/17/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >You'd be amazed at how wasteful school districts are with computer >hardware money. I'm constantly amazed, at the auctions I attend. Most >recently, it was a college auction, not a grade/high-school auction, but >I found myself able to buy as many as several dozen Dell Pentium III >machines for $5 each (I only bought six). When you have hundreds or even thousands of PCs to oversee, uniformity is the admin's friend. Non-conforming and mildly malfunctioning PCs are flushed. For that matter, if you consider your time and effort (not to mention the Microsoftian licensing issues) to even examine or refurb those PCs, it's hard to justify the expense. If you work for charity, it might be another matter. That sort of PC from Wisconsin's surplus sales recently went for about $25 each in large lots. They go for more in ones-ies. - John From KParker at workcover.com Wed Aug 17 20:35:47 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:05:47 +0930 Subject: IBM user group to celebrate 50th anniversary Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D26E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Definitely a classic story - appeared in Australian IT news today.... http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=19683&eid=1&edate=2005081 8 ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Aug 17 20:39:46 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:39:46 -0700 Subject: ASCII was Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? References: <200508180018.j7I0IbSj014296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301c5a395$c31deca0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I happen to have a July 1964 issue of Electronics World with an article titled "Binary Computer Codes and ASCII" by Ed Bukstein. It gives a summary of existing codes then has this statement. The recent trend toward "networking" of computers has emphasized the need for a standard code. Here is the American Standard Code for Information Interchange X3.4-1963 chart http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Jul1964/ASCII_1963.jpg (I have got it in tiff also.) Note that lower case is unassigned and the underscore is a back arrow. Also in this issue Don Lancaster has a light dimmer project. It uses a new semiconductor called a "bilateral switching diode". Michael Holley > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) > From: Tom Jennings > Subject: RE: Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? > There's an indicator/switch labelled "ASCII". It's clearly late > 70's/early 80's vintage, so it's likely computer-controlled, if From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 17 20:46:05 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collection of TTL/CMOS chips, can anyone help identify? In-Reply-To: <20050817191444.3282b2c9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > I remember at one point having a bunch of TTL chips with 1974 date > codes, and how confusing it could get. Signetics marked their 4000 series CMOS from 1974 with "CMOS". William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 17 20:51:14 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:51:14 -0400 Subject: IBM user group to celebrate 50th anniversary In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D26E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <200508180159.j7I1xgnL009191@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Definitely a classic story - appeared in Australian IT news today.... http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=19683&eid=1&edate=20050818 ---------------------------------------- We covered this in the July 5 issue of Computer Collector (http://news.computercollector.com): In 1955, engineers from 17 large companies and government agencies gathered at Rand Corp.'s Los Angeles facility to form what could be the very first computer user group, Share. What they had in common was use of the IBM 701 vacuum tube computer. The following year, the IBM 704 commercialized core memory and floating-point math, along with Fortran and Lisp. Also in 1956, Thomas Watson Sr. died at age 82. (See http://tinyurl.com/7g63c for details on the IBM 701.) Share, however, didn't just succeed, it exploded. In addition to Rand, the founding parties included Boeing, California Research, Curtiss-Wright, General Electric, General Motors, Hughes Aircraft, IBM Computing Bureau, IBM Scientific Computing Center, Lockheed Aircraft (and missile systems and Georgia divisions), Los Alamos Laboratory, North American Aviation, the National Security Agency, Radiation Laboratory, United Aircraft Corporation, and unofficially, Douglas Aircraft. Share's membership in 2005 includes 80 percent of the Fortune 500, president Robert Rosen said. http://www.share.org/About The group began celebrating its 50th anniversay at a recent meeting in Anaheim, Calif., just up the highway from Los Angeles. Next month (Aug. 21-26) in Boston is the major event, and there are several history sessions planned to celebrate the anniversary. "We're trying to get some of the old-timers to come back to reminisce about how things were and how things changed over the years," Rosen said. He doesn't think any of the founding members are alive, but there may be members who were involved in the late 1950s, he said. There will also be an exhibit of vintage circuit boards, manuals, and original Share attendee's meeting notes, all on a much larger scale than at the Anaheim meeting. There will also be sessions devoted to historic Big Blue songs and buttons. (Check out the Computerworld article at http://tinyurl.com/bp2x6 and, better yet, visit http://www.mxg.com/thebuttonman/ to listen to the 1975 "MVS is breaking my heart - Boney fingers" song and see a button collection.) Besides helping the users, Share influenced Big Blue itself on several occassions, Rosen said. "People don't realize it, but Share invented the open-source model. People would write code and contribute it to the Share Program Library Agency. People would contribute programs, modify it, and Share would distribute all of this free of charge. So Share was way ahead of its time," he noted. A review board would pick the best code if there were duplicate functions. White papers were also a major part in which Share influenced IBM decisions. Rosen himself in the mid-1980s wrote a paper that became the basis for the RS6000 computer, he said. Later, Share was influential in making Unicode a standard, he added. Looking at how user groups/vendor relationship changed over time, "What you see now is, we say here's the fix we need, and here's the business case for it," Rosen said. These days, companies still running mainframes have a need for systems programmers, as most qualified people are retired. It's also become clear that the distributed systems community is still learning from mainframe concepts, such as server virtualization and storage management. "While we have a great respect for the past and we're obviously celebrating our 50th anniversary, we're also looking forward to the future. What's amazing is the number of people who were around Share for a long time, so you can get that perspective," Rosen said. "I can look at all these computer journals and everything and say I did this and see how wonderful it was. You never see the ones saying look what a disaster it was. You can find what people did that didn't work so you don't make the same mistake." So, 50 years later and hopefully in 2055 as well, "The sharing of knowledge is probably the key element that Share brings to the table. The sharing of knowledge, it's probably worth its weight in gold." From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 17 21:21:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ping Randy McLaughlin In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E60@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Has anyone heard from Randy lately? I was just wondering the same thing about a day ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 18 00:44:04 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:44:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Torch 725 Message-ID: <20050818054404.21258.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Mostly just pictures for now, I'll add more data as I get it. I hope the hard drive works, at least long enough to make a copy. http://www.themotionstore.com/leeedavison/68k/torch725/index.html Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 18 01:34:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Sometimes you'll run into "tamper-resistant Torx" which is regular > torx with a pin in the center of the screw. I've seen those, though not (so far) in disk drives. I have an interchangeable-bit screwdriver whose set of bits includes some three dozen "security" bits of various kinds. I don't know the names of most of them, but there are pin-in-the-middle torx, pin-in-the-middle hexagon ("Allen"), something I might call a three-bladed Phillips (like a Phillips but with one vane removed and the remaining three vanes at 120? from one another), "offset" Phillips (like Phillips with each vane offset to the side by approximately its own thickness), two-point bits (for which the screw head is solid with two small holes, one on each side of centre), and what I might call "butterfly" bits - I have no simple unambiguous name for the shape, but for those who know PostScript or who have a PostScript interpreter, "250 500 translate 0 -15 moveto 0 0 50 -40 40 arc 0 15 lineto 0 0 50 140 220 arc closepath stroke" gives a fair idea of it. Plus a bunch of non-"security" bits: regular hexagon (both inch and metric), square ("Robertson"), Phillips, ordinary flat, and something which I didn't recognize when I got it but thanks to an earlier discussion here I now know is called Pozidriv :) - all in various sizes. No, finding the screwdrivers is unlikely to be my problem. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 18 01:57:49 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:57:49 +0100 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > students. Students who are SO beginning, that N = N + 1 is NOT obvious. > Many of them are actually otherwise intelligent, but they have not learned > how to think procedurally, and have been trained to think that '=' means > that two expressions are interchangable with each other. Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as assignation, and "=" as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? I had managed to get my head round that when I was eight years old! You can't seriously sit there and tell me that university students have trouble grasping that... Gordon. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 18 02:00:10 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:00:10 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink progress update Message-ID: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is going well. At present, the following is working: X.25 packet sequence simulation Initial disk reset handshake Read account and code off disk If match, validate disk with new code and go to welcome text If not, bring up dialog and ask user for screen name, with erro checking. Add user, hook account code, and validate disk Show welcome text and await F5 to go to Main Menu Allow user to select any of the areas on the main menu For People Connection, allow access to any public or private room, ignore, de-ignore users, change rooms, change to another area, quit, send or receive email. For the other areas, show initial menu, and allow change to other areas, email, or leave. When a user gets mail, the "You've got mail" icon shows on their screen. The server implements the required packet based sliding window protocol and handles handshaking. I'm working on adding online messages (IMs), and the Auditorium room, then the file areas (will gateway to FTP/HTTP sites) If there is interest, I can provide more details on-list or off-list. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 18 02:01:09 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:01:09 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics Message-ID: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 18 02:12:58 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 03:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200508180714.DAA20096@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most >>>>>> simple-minded of people :) >> Sorry, but I was NOT the one who said that. Probably Sellam. Um, people...note the extra levels of quoting? How the relevant quote, instead of being one level of quoting more than the "Fred Cisin wrote", is two more beyond that? That seems to me like a fairly clear indication that Fred *didn't* write it, but rather *quoted* it - or more likely quoted someone else quoting it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 18 04:02:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:02:10 +0000 Subject: Rodime RO200 series In-Reply-To: <20050818000302.16225.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050818000302.16225.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1124355730.17973.34.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 01:03 +0100, lee davison wrote: > > Most Torch machines used an OMTI 5000 series board, I think > > This is a Xebec board, no identifying marks apart from 'Rev E04' > > > There's also something about reading the drive geometry from > > the first (zeroth?) sector of the drive, then sending some > > commands to the OMTI board. I doubt that modern SCSI drives > > will handle that correctly. > > It sounds like it's the SCSI identify command. It's probably a Xebec S1410 board; that's the one Torch seemed to use when they weren't using Adaptec or Omti boards. With the SCSI connector on the right, power's top-left, middle-left is the ST506 control connector, then J2 and J3 St506 data connectors bottom-left? Lots of analogue circuitry toward the top of the board in the middle, ROM bottom-right, and 3 40-pin ICs toward the bottom of the board in the middle. These boards don't support Identify - which is what makes plugging them into modern hardware in order to archive data a real pain. Modern host adapter firmware and software drivers tend to expect to be able to identify the device before they'll talk to it properly :( If just have a J4 connector (not present on all boards) near the ST506 data connectors, don't plug anything into it - it's a factory test socket, not any kind of drive data... That Xebec's actually SASI not SCSI incidentally... if the Torch SCSI board is operating in some kind of SASI mode then a modern SCSI drive might not be too happy talking to it. SCSI command class 0, opcode 0x0C is 'initialise drive characteristics' - the host needs to send this to the board with params in order that the board can address the drive(s) properly. (the S1410 manual's on the floor here from where I've been bodging a homebrew SASI controller onto a PC in order to drive one of the boards :) cheers Jules From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 18 04:54:12 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:54:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rodime RO200 series Message-ID: <20050818095412.56167.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> This is a Xebec board, no identifying marks apart from 'Rev E04' > It's probably a Xebec S1410 board; ... Lots of analogue circuitry > toward the top of the board in the middle, ROM bottom-right, and > 3 40-pin ICs toward the bottom of the board in the middle. That's the beastie, Z80 CPU, 4K ROM and 1K RAM (2 x 2114) seem to make up the brains of the card. > These boards don't support Identify - which is what makes plugging > them into modern hardware in order to archive data a real pain. I'll have to fix up an Amiga with it's ST506/SCSI card and try that on the drive then. > If just have a J4 connector (not present on all boards) ... Not present on this one. > That Xebec's actually SASI not SCSI incidentally... if the Torch > SCSI board is operating in some kind of SASI mode then a modern > SCSI drive might not be too happy talking to it. I was going to try some Seagate 20MB and 40MB drives, when I find them. > SCSI command class 0, opcode 0x0C is 'initialise drive > characteristics' - the host needs to send this to the board with > params in order that> the board can address the drive(s) properly. I presume it can do a read of whatever sector holds these parameters first though. > (the S1410 manual's on the floor here from where I've been bodging > a homebrew SASI controller onto a PC in order to drive one of the > boards :) Isn't reading the destructions like cheating? 8^)= Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 18 05:00:54 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:00:54 -0400 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > assignation, and "=" > as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" even though it's not my computer. Tim. From unibus at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 06:32:04 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:32:04 +1000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: <200508180018.j7I0IbSq014296@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508180018.j7I0IbSq014296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:54:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00) > From: Ashley Carder > Subject: Re: PDP11 stuff in OZ > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <796518.1124301267248.JavaMail.root at elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Al Kossow > > Sent: Aug 17, 2005 12:30 AM > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ > > > > If someone is nearby.. > > > > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/equip_list.html > > If anyone is in Australia and is willing to collect and ship > some items to the USA for me, I will be glad to pay you > for your time and effort. I have attempted to contact the > owner of these items but have not received a response. > > I would very much like to have the spare 11/40 CPU set > since I have both a functional 11/40 and 11/35, as well > as a sick 11/35. My 11/40 is part of a historic functional > display of a 1970s timesharing academic computer center > and I would like to be able to have spares to keep it up > and running. > > If anyone in Australia is willing to help, please contact > me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. > > Thanks, > Ashley Unfortunately the items are in Sydney and I'm in Melbourne. Suggest you try Australian Computer Museum Society (ACMS) ( http://www.acms.org.au contacts ) John Geremin. Regards, Garry From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 08:39:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:39:04 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Sometimes you'll run into "tamper-resistant Torx" which is regular >> torx with a pin in the center of the screw. der> I've seen those, though not (so far) in disk drives. der> I have an interchangeable-bit screwdriver whose set of bits der> includes some three dozen "security" bits of various kinds. I der> don't know the names of most of them, but there are der> pin-in-the-middle torx, pin-in-the-middle hexagon ("Allen"), der> something I might call a three-bladed Phillips (like a Phillips der> but with one vane removed and the remaining three vanes at 120?? der> from one another), ... I've seen those used on airliner wings -- 737 perhaps. Don't know the name. der> and what I might call der> "butterfly" bits - I have no simple unambiguous name for the der> shape, but for those who know PostScript or who have a der> PostScript interpreter, "250 500 translate 0 -15 moveto 0 0 50 der> -40 40 arc 0 15 lineto 0 0 50 140 220 arc closepath stroke" der> gives a fair idea of it. Nice description. I think those are "Clutch" bits. der> Plus a bunch of non-"security" bits: regular hexagon (both inch der> and metric), square ("Robertson"), Phillips, ordinary flat, and der> something which I didn't recognize when I got it but thanks to der> an earlier discussion here I now know is called Pozidriv :) - der> all in various sizes. der> No, finding the screwdrivers is unlikely to be my problem. :) Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. Those seem to be rather old; the only place I ran into them is in a 1950s vintage Collins radio (51J-3). The Xcelite "99" roll pack toolkit has those, and you can get them separately too. A Bristol bit looks like a cylinder with 4 (small sizes) or 6 (larger sizes) square-bottom fairly narrow grooves cut into them. So it's very different from Torx (almost all groove, and round-bottomed) or Allen (hexagon); if you need to undo a Bristol spline screw, you'll need the real tool. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 18 08:41:38 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:38 -0400 Subject: Assignment V equality (was: Bliss was Re: DEC program listing In-Reply-To: <200508180714.DAA20096@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <20050817142251.N1763@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050818093112.01bdc2a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: [[ and Fred said before that, tho it doesn't show ]] > >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>>>> I fail to see how i = i + 1 is not obvious to only but the most > >>>>>> simple-minded of people :) > >> Sorry, but I was NOT the one who said that. Probably Sellam. > >Um, people...note the extra levels of quoting? I did. That's why I said "check your *attribution*." As Fred didn't write the sentence that was deeply quoted, his name (attribution) should have been removed to alleviate this particular confusion. If the correct attribution had been removed by the time it got to Tom's mailbox, he should've left it nameless. Not all mail clients show quoting levels accurately. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 18 08:47:35 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200508180847.35662.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 18 August 2005 01:34, der Mouse wrote: > I have an interchangeable-bit screwdriver whose set of bits includes > some three dozen "security" bits of various kinds. I don't know the > names of most of them, Incase someone is interested, the names of the security bits are... > but there are pin-in-the-middle torx, tamperproof torx > pin-in-the-middle hexagon ("Allen"), something I might call a tamperproof allen > three-bladed Phillips (like a Phillips but with one vane removed and > the remaining three vanes at 120? from one another), tri-wing > "offset" Phillips (like Phillips with each vane offset to the side by > approximately its own thickness) torq-set > two-point bits (for which the screw > head is solid with two small holes, one on each side of centre), and spanner > what I might call "butterfly" bits - I have no simple unambiguous > name for the shape, That sounds like a 'clutch bit' as far as I can guess. Does the head look like an hourglass if viewed appropriately? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 18 08:51:27 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:51:27 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4304925F.4090500@atarimuseum.com> That is sooooooooooooooooooo cool !!! Nice interface too... So when are you setting up the terminal servers and modem racks to open up for business again ;-) Curt Jim Brain wrote: > My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: > > http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ > > Jim > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 18 09:19:40 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: WANTED: Atari ST software Message-ID: <20050818141939.ZOSZ6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 14:36 17/08/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > >Does anyone have any Atari ST disks that you can send >me? > >I have a 520ST, but I don't have a single diskette for >it. I've just made images of the TOS System Disk and the BASIC and Logo language disks - I should have them posted to my site sometime tomorrow. IIRC, although the ST has it's operating system in ROM, it won't actually "do anything" unless there is a diskette in the drive. Fortunately the ST uses FAT format disks, so you can format a 720K disk on a PC, put it in the drive and the OS will come up. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 10:07:56 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:07:56 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> References: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: >Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is >going well. At present, the following is working: Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 18 10:13:14 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:13:14 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <4304925F.4090500@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <002201c5a407$5aab0190$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Modem racks are now cheap...$100 on eBay for a 16-modem bank: http://cgi.ebay.com/Telecom-Octocom-AC1816B-Rack-Modem-w-16-8840R-AP2825R_W0 QQitemZ5799675431QQcategoryZ99267QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:51 AM To: General at smtp5.suscom.net Subject: Re: QuantumLink pics That is sooooooooooooooooooo cool !!! Nice interface too... So when are you setting up the terminal servers and modem racks to open up for business again ;-) Curt Jim Brain wrote: > My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: > > http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ > > Jim > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 18 10:16:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 18, 5 08:07:56 am" Message-ID: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> > >Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is > >going well. At present, the following is working: > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the > early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then > (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. There was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear in some Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo deal, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Praise the sea; on shore remain. -- John Florio ---------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 18 10:22:34 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:22:34 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> References: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050818102142.05228118@mail> At 10:16 AM 8/18/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. There >was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear in some >Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo deal, though. I seem to remember that the AmigaLink service was purely text-based with menus and prompts... did Quantum make a test shell for their system? - John From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 18 10:33:19 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <4304925F.4090500@atarimuseum.com> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> <4304925F.4090500@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <9772.162.123.17.80.1124379199.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> > That is sooooooooooooooooooo cool !!! Nice interface too... So > when are you setting up the terminal servers and modem racks to open up > for business again ;-) This implementation uses my tcpser (or tcpser4j) application to move traffic from RS232 to TCP/IP. The system does not preclude a person setting up modem banks, but I'm intending to use the Internet as my network. tcpser is more no frills (POSIX C app), but tcpser4j has the wow factor (It sounds out the DTMF digits if the "speaker" is on, and plays the dial tone, the rings, the V90 negotiation, etc. (sound files modifiable by user). Still, though, for this use, either will work fine. We did find a nasty issue during LD testing the other night. When I would connect to the server here, all worked well. But, when Ohio would connect, the packet engine in the client would continue to reset the link. Thinking network latency was the culprit, I had someone in Sweden setup a loopback port to give me some easy latency to test with (I head dummynet also will work, but this was quicker). I then looked at the packets destined for the client, and saw: 5A .. .. .. .. .. 0D The packets are typically 8+ bytes long, and always end with 0x0d (the system took advantage of X.25 LINE mode, and made each packet look like a line of text). On a hunch, I changed my server code from: send(packet.getBytes()); send(byte)0x0d); to send all of the data in one go. Magically, the client started working. Later, someone posted to the forum that they had seen some code in the client to check a timer, but had no idea why. It turns out the client was smart. If it found packet data, but did not see a CR char for 8 rasterlines (~65 CPU cycles each), it invalidated the entire packet, since the packet network would have not delayed that long to send a trailing CR. Of course, the issue may still exist (due to IP fragmentation), but as long as the link is not in reset state, the retransmit system can deal with it. I think though, long term, we might just offer a patch to remove the timer. It's been an interesting challenge, only having the client and some screen shots with which to work with. The client is pretty impressive, though, as it is a true multi-tasking system wrapped up in a telecomm client. While you are sending an email in chat, for example, incoming chat replies will appear on the screen bhind your text and scroll the chat portion of the screen up if needed, all while not affecting your email composition. Probably more than you were interested in... Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 10:53:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:53:16 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> References: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the >> early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then >> (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). > >Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. There >was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear in some >Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo deal, though. I know I'm not thinking of AOL, but I think it was associated with AOL. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 18 11:03:02 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:03:02 -0400 Subject: HP 7900 disk platter plays Spike Jones hit??? Message-ID: <4304B136.3070900@bellsouth.net> eBay Item number 5230383368 From the auction description: WHEN INSTALLED IN DISK DRIVE PLAYS A SPIKE JONES HIT WTF???? Any of you HP gurus care to 'splain this to me? Glen 0/0 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 18 11:08:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7900 disk platter plays Spike Jones hit??? In-Reply-To: <4304B136.3070900@bellsouth.net> from Glen Goodwin at "Aug 18, 5 12:03:02 pm" Message-ID: <200508181608.JAA10118@floodgap.com> > eBay Item number 5230383368 > From the auction description: > WHEN INSTALLED IN DISK DRIVE PLAYS A SPIKE JONES HIT > WTF???? > Any of you HP gurus care to 'splain this to me? Simple. It plays either "Cocktails for Two" or "der Fuerher's Face" depending on your national localization and installed options. There's a Beetlebum switch on the back for controlling the speed, after which you're off to the races. No one will probably get any of these jokes. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 18 11:03:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:03:51 -0600 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4304B167.4070401@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > I had managed to get my head round that when I was eight years old! You > can't seriously sit there and tell me that university students have > trouble grasping that... The problem remember is some langauges like C and FORTRAN have boolean variables and that is the problem with = and .EQ. or '=='. Good old BASIC don't. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 18 11:14:23 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:14:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <20050818161424.90144.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > From the auction description: > WHEN INSTALLED IN DISK DRIVE PLAYS A SPIKE JONES HIT > WTF???? > Any of you HP gurus care to 'splain this to me? Probably a reference to Spike's musical talent ... "A chef in a railroad restaurant taught him how to use adapted pots and pans, forks, knives and spoons as musical instruments." Cheers, Lee . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 18 11:08:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: > > http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ Wow, great job, Jim! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 18 11:11:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > > assignation, and "=" > > as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > even though it's not my computer. I know. And if you want to leave a unix shell and you type "exit", you then have to press Enter to do it. My mind is crushed under the weight of the illogicality of it all!!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 18 11:23:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7900 disk platter plays Spike Jones hit??? In-Reply-To: <4304B136.3070900@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > eBay Item number 5230383368 > > From the auction description: > WHEN INSTALLED IN DISK DRIVE PLAYS A SPIKE JONES HIT > > WTF???? > > Any of you HP gurus care to 'splain this to me? Probably just a case os Sellerus Gooferitus. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Aug 18 11:30:41 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 05 16:30:41 GMT Subject: Assignment V equality Message-ID: <0508181630.AA11176@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I know. And if you want to leave a unix shell and you type "exit", you > then have to press Enter to do it. No, you don't have to do this - you can just press ^D instead. In fact on truly Classic UNIX (V7 and 4.3BSD) this is the ONLY way - exit only stops shell scripts, but won't terminate an interactive shell. MS From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Aug 18 11:37:36 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:37:36 -0400 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: References: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050818123454.04ffa960@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > > > assignation, and "=" > > > as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > > even though it's not my computer. > >I know. And if you want to leave a unix shell and you type "exit", you >then have to press Enter to do it. What about the fact that you have to have a home directory, even if you're at work???? :-O >My mind is crushed under the weight of the illogicality of it all!!! That doesn't surprise me... ;^> Just kidding!!! D'oh!!! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 18 11:48:50 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (dogas at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:48:50 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys Message-ID: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> The other day the mailman delivered the bills and a lead saying a doctor's office around the corner wanted to get rid of their 'big old' computer. Picture my stationwagon's wheels squealing out of the driveway moments later. ;) Turns out to be a IBM PowerServer 520, a 3151 ascii terminal, a 7207 scsi tape, a 4226 printer, a couple of concentrator boxes, and the cabeling to run it all. It boots cleanly into AIX 3.2 and I've got the root password for it. Sweet, though I didn't get any media or docs or see a C compiler in there either. Off to the faqs there It was supprisingly liftable after an earlier experience toting a 'small' AS400. Has anyone been inside a 3151 terminal? The screen is pretty dim even with the front contrast knob jacked up all the way. Is there a pot inside (and where) to brighten the screen? And can anyone recommend any of the cool cards/options to look out for? It's my first AIX box. Thanks - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net ps. here are some pics... http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/a.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/b.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/c.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/d.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/e.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/f.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/g.JPG From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 12:01:09 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> from "dogas@bellsouth.net" at Aug 18, 2005 12:48:50 PM Message-ID: <200508181701.j7IH19Ua030876@onyx.spiritone.com> > Turns out to be a IBM PowerServer 520, a 3151 ascii terminal, a 7207 scsi > tape, a 4226 printer, a couple of concentrator boxes, and the cabeling to > run it all. It boots cleanly into AIX 3.2 and I've got the root password > for it. Sweet, though I didn't get any media or docs or see a C compiler > in there either. Off to the faqs there Now that looks familiar, we used to have a lot of those around here, primarily as workstations, or for running batch jobs. I think they're finally all gone. I don't think I ever scavenged any doc's for it either, as I had no desire to have a Unix system that is that big and slow. You should be able to plug a normal (non-IBM) terminal in, or get a video card for it. Zane From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Aug 18 12:09:42 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:09:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: TU56 DECTape reels Message-ID: <11260135.1124384983237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does anyone have any empty DECtape reels? I think I'm getting ready to start my TU56 / TC11 restoration and I don't want to waste "good" DECtape reels that have tape on them just to get a couple empty "take-up" reels. Thanks, Ashley P.S. On another note, does anyone have any decent TU56/TC11 that they would be interested in selling in case mine ends up being too far gone? Mine's definitely a fixer-upper, but I believe it's all there. I'm also looking for a high speed DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC05/PC11). From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 12:12:51 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:12:51 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4304C193.5090907@gmail.com> dogas at bellsouth.net wrote: > The other day the mailman delivered the bills and a lead saying a doctor's office around the corner wanted to get rid of their 'big old' computer. Picture my stationwagon's wheels squealing out of the driveway moments later. ;) > > Turns out to be a IBM PowerServer 520, a 3151 ascii terminal, a 7207 scsi tape, a 4226 printer, a couple of concentrator boxes, and the cabeling to run it all. It boots cleanly into AIX 3.2 and I've got the root password for it. Sweet, though I didn't get any media or docs or see a C compiler in there either. Off to the faqs there > > It was supprisingly liftable after an earlier experience toting a 'small' AS400. Pretty standard first-generation RS/6000. Not fast by any means, even when it came out, but perfectly serviceable, and holds lots of hard disks. These machines aren't usually that heavy, unless they have significant numbers of 5.25" FH hard drives in them. Have fun. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 12:13:59 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:13:59 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4304C1D7.1000604@gmail.com> dogas at bellsouth.net wrote: > The other day the mailman delivered the bills and a lead saying a doctor's office around the corner wanted to get rid of their 'big old' computer. Picture my stationwagon's wheels squealing out of the driveway moments later. ;) > > Turns out to be a IBM PowerServer 520, a 3151 ascii terminal, a 7207 scsi tape, a 4226 printer, a couple of concentrator boxes, and the cabeling to run it all. It boots cleanly into AIX 3.2 and I've got the root password for it. Sweet, though I didn't get any media or docs or see a C compiler in there either. Off to the faqs there By the way, this machine will run newish OS. Anything up to and including AIX 5.1. 5.2 requires PCI/CHRP. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 18 12:58:57 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:58:57 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? Message-ID: <200508181758.j7IHwwHB007573@mwave.heeltoe.com> Askley's plea for empty dectape reels made me think I should ask here... I'm looking to find a 1/2" tape cleaner. Anyone on the east coast have one they don't need? I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading old DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see stick-shed syndrom? (ah, I remember watching os/8 load off a dectape unit connected to an 8/i running tss/8... It had 4 8/l's slaved off it and 'served' the dectape drive up to which ever asked for it) -brad From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Aug 18 13:04:44 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:04:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? Message-ID: <11584708.1124388284860.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Parker > Sent: Aug 18, 2005 1:58 PM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? > > > Ashley's plea for empty dectape reels made me think I should ask here... > > I'm looking to find a 1/2" tape cleaner. Anyone on the east coast have > one they don't need? > > I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading old > DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see stick-shed > syndrom? > > (ah, I remember watching os/8 load off a dectape unit connected to an 8/i > running tss/8... It had 4 8/l's slaved off it and 'served' the dectape drive > up to which ever asked for it) > > -brad I think that Al Kossow has lots of experience reading old DECtapes based on the good DecTape archives that he has on bitsavers. Al, can you share a little of your experience and insight with the rest of us? How well do these things hold up 30-35 years later when they are actually being read and written to on a TU56? Ashley From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 18 14:10:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:10:46 Subject: HP 7900 disk platter plays Spike Jones hit??? In-Reply-To: <4304B136.3070900@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050818141046.3da7454e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:03 PM 8/18/05 -0400, you wrote: >eBay Item number 5230383368 > > From the auction description: >WHEN INSTALLED IN DISK DRIVE PLAYS A SPIKE JONES HIT > >WTF???? > >Any of you HP gurus care to 'splain this to me? Kind of sounds like the "music" that you get when a head crashes! I looks like it too from the looks of the disk in the picture. "Missing Data" is another hint that this disk is kaupt. Joe From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Aug 18 13:17:04 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:17:04 +0200 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <200508181758.j7IHwwHB007573@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4792F4DF-1014-11DA-9ADC-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading old > DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see > stick-shed > syndrom? > > Never had any problems with with reading and writing old DECtapes. I did experience problems when reformatting PDP-11 formatted tapes to PDP-8 ones. Jos From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 13:23:05 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <11584708.1124388284860.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Aug 18, 2005 02:04:44 PM Message-ID: <200508181823.j7IIN57u000681@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading old > > DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see stick-shed > > syndrom? > > > > (ah, I remember watching os/8 load off a dectape unit connected to an 8/i > > running tss/8... It had 4 8/l's slaved off it and 'served' the dectape drive > > up to which ever asked for it) > > > > -brad > > I think that Al Kossow has lots of experience reading old DECtapes based on > the good DecTape archives that he has on bitsavers. Al, can you share a > little of your experience and insight with the rest of us? How well do these > things hold up 30-35 years later when they are actually being read and > written to on a TU56? IIRC, DECtapes are a really cool design, the magnetic surface is sandwitched between two layers of plastic (or is it mylar), and as a result don't have the issues normally associated with tapes. Hmmm, this reminds me, I've a fair sized box of DECtapes I should find and see if Al wants to read. Zane From jismay at unixboxen.net Thu Aug 18 13:26:16 2005 From: jismay at unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:26:16 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: References: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4304D2C8.5080206@unixboxen.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is >> going well. At present, the following is working: > > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the > early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then > (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). > > Zane > > Radio Shack sold something called "PC-Link". When I tried to install and use it years ago it basically pointed me to AOL. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 18 13:25:43 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:25:43 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <200508181758.j7IHwwHB007573@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508181758.j7IHwwHB007573@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4304D2A7.8030706@atarimuseum.com> When you say tape cleaner - something to actually clean and treat the transport and composite materials of the actual tape media, or are you looking for tape cleaner for the tape mechanism head? If its head cleaner you are looking for, Radio Shack Tape Header cleaner has worked very well on my HP and Dec 9 track drives, just let it completely evaporate from the head before loading a tape. Curt Brad Parker wrote: >Askley's plea for empty dectape reels made me think I should ask here... > >I'm looking to find a 1/2" tape cleaner. Anyone on the east coast have >one they don't need? > >I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading old >DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see stick-shed >syndrom? > >(ah, I remember watching os/8 load off a dectape unit connected to an 8/i >running tss/8... It had 4 8/l's slaved off it and 'served' the dectape drive >up to which ever asked for it) > >-brad > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 8/17/2005 From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 18 13:30:33 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:30:33 -0500 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? References: <11584708.1124388284860.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006901c5a422$ef5203a0$0c406b43@66067007> > > I think that Al Kossow has lots of experience reading old DECtapes based > on > the good DecTape archives that he has on bitsavers. Al, can you share a > little of your experience and insight with the rest of us? How well do > these > things hold up 30-35 years later when they are actually being read and > written to on a TU56? > > Ashley > > Along the same line of sharing from AL, can you share with us what equipment you use to scan books, manuals, and papers in order to archive them on bitsavers? I need to start a project here at the museum to start archiving the books, manuals, papers, schematics, and other stuff before they are lost forever. Also need to start moving stuff from older media to CD's or DVD's to archive some of the tapes, 5 1/4 FD and other media. Thanks John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 13:37:07 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <4304D2A7.8030706@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Aug 18, 2005 02:25:43 PM Message-ID: <200508181837.j7IIb7fr001036@onyx.spiritone.com> > When you say tape cleaner - something to actually clean and treat the > transport and composite materials of the actual tape media, or are you > looking for tape cleaner for the tape mechanism head? If its head > cleaner you are looking for, Radio Shack Tape Header cleaner has worked > very well on my HP and Dec 9 track drives, just let it completely > evaporate from the head before loading a tape. > > Curt I'm guessing he's looking for a Tape Cleaner & Certifier. They look kind of like a stand up 9-track drive minus the whole part with vacuum tubes (so the sit nicely on a desk). It runs the tape over glass "blade" to clean it, and I believe it writes/reads a pattern to the tape while doing that to check for errors. Oh, it also has a cleaning ribbon after the glass blades that it rolls over, IIRC. (not the best description, but it's been nearly 10 years since I used one) The company that used to see the tape head cleaning pads now markets them for cleaning screens. I've found the Radio Shack tape head cleaner great for cleaning my TK50, TZ30, and TK70 drives. I'd assume you could use isoprophal alcohol as well, since that's basically all the cleaning pads were. The important thing is to use lint free swabs or cloth. Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 18 13:39:33 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:39:33 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:25:43 EDT." <4304D2A7.8030706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200508181839.j7IIdXkh012418@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: >When you say tape cleaner - something to actually clean and treat the >transport and composite materials of the actual tape media, or are you >looking for tape cleaner for the tape mechanism head? I'm looking for a device which holds the reels and spins the tape through a cleaning devices (or not, depending on how its configured). It allows you to retension and/or clean, erase, test, etc... Various models have different features. They often look similar to old style reel-to-reel audio tape decks. The cleaner portion sometimes has an amazing looking mechanism I've heard called "ruby blades". These can clean and burnish tapes in good shape but can also ruin a tape in bad shape. I only use special IPA swabs for cleaning tape heads and transports. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 18 13:46:43 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:46:43 -0700 Subject: Reading DECtapes (was 1/2" tape cleaner?) Message-ID: I think that Al Kossow has lots of experience reading old DECtapes based on the good DecTape archives that he has on bitsavers. Al, can you share a little of your experience and insight with the rest of us? How well do these things hold up 30-35 years later when they are actually being read and written to on a TU56? -- very, very well. The tapes have redundant track encoding, they are pretty low density, and the formulation doesn't stick. I've read tapes from the mid 60's w/o a problem. I have a bit-level reader with custom read amps coming to deal with the couple of marginal tapes and LINCtapes that I have. -- 1/2" tapes, on the other hand, are a total PITA. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 18 13:55:37 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:55:37 -0700 Subject: scanners (was 1/2" tape cleaner?) Message-ID: Along the same line of sharing from AL, can you share with us what equipment you use to scan books, manuals, and papers in order to archive them on bitsavers? -- Primary scanner is a Ricoh IS520. B&W up to 400dpi, double sided, 30ppm, handles 11x17 sheets Built like tanks. I think we have a dozen of them now between Eric and I. Just found two on eBay for under $300 ea incl shipping. SW is windows-based and quirky, but after running a million or so pages through it you learn to get around the bugs. I made the decision a long time ago that the data on the pages was more important than the bindings, so bound docs and books are disassembled to scan. If I can find bound docs in poor condition (water damage, etc.) I'll use those first. I have a Mustek 11x17 flatbed SCSI scanner for large format or color scanning. I also have a Mekel M560 microfiche/aperture card scanner that I'm just getting up to speed on, and a couple of large format (36") scanners that I need to get going, and a bunch of 3M microfilm scanners in storage. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 18 14:01:00 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:01:00 -0700 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? Message-ID: <09ae6f73cd935ebcf55741348761a94b@bitsavers.org> > The cleaner portion sometimes has an amazing looking mechanism I've > heard called "ruby blades". AKA "Tape Scrapers" Earliest cleaners used razor blades. Replace with harder materials later. > These can clean and burnish tapes in good > shape but can also ruin a tape in bad shape. It sounds like what you have are bad tapes. Why would you risk them on a certifier/cleaner? From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Thu Aug 18 14:12:12 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:12:12 -0600 Subject: QuantumLink pics Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C11@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> >Message: 14 >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:01:09 -0500 >From: Jim Brain >Subject: QuantumLink pics >To: Classic Computer Talk >Message-ID: <43043235.1000404 at jbrain.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: >http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ >Jim >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Great work Jim! I always wanted to know what Qlink looked like. I used Compuserve at the time and it's interface was pretty basic. Now what would be really fun would be to patch Qlink to work with the MMC-64 or Retro Replay with an RR-net card and go through the internet! Has anybody ever tried it? Gary Fisher This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 18 14:18:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual Message-ID: Anyone have a TK30 manual? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 18 14:44:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:44:28 -0700 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <4304C1D7.1000604@gmail.com> References: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <4304C1D7.1000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4304E51C.1030701@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > By the way, this machine will run newish OS. Anything up to and > including AIX 5.1. 5.2 requires PCI/CHRP. Ahem. A 7013-520 will *walk* AIX v5.1. "run" is not in that model's lexicon. I have a 520, and v4.1.4 is the best speed/feature compromise I've found. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 18 15:05:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <20050818164850.ORZZ8550.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: > And can anyone recommend any of the cool cards/options to look out > for? It's my first AIX box. There are some ass-kicking (for the time) video cards for the very early RS/6000s that took up three slots (!). Pretty rare. Even rarer are the very cool routing coprocessor cards. I have found the 10base2 and V.35 routing cards in the wild, but the FDDI and HSSI cards are basically unavailable. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Aug 18 15:14:34 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:14:34 -0700 Subject: Heaven and Hell! Message-ID: <4304EC2A.7060708@theriver.com> Hi ALL! I had the good fortune to witness something truly extraordinary yeaterday. I imagine there are some on this list that have stumbled on large collections by accident or by design, and marvel at thier good fortune and curse their luck at not being the owner. Well, such a thing happened to me yestrday and I was truly awestruck. I had met a retired engineer at the auction I attend religiously at the University of Arizona. I have been attending these auctions for about 5 years, there are some who have been attending for far longer, and also have been collecting from other source even longer. Roy is such a person. He lives alone in a very large red brick hacienda in a very lush part of the San Pedro River valley in SE arizona, only a few miles from me. Upon arrival at his home which is at the end of a very muddy and rutted dirt road, I was greeted by a very large vulture sitting on a telephone pole outside the driveway to his house. An omen of things to come? I proceeded down the driveway several hundred yard through a huge thicket of willows and cottonwoods to come upon a HUGE graveyard of old computers, electronics parts,equipment racks and large piles of junk moldering in the humid arizona sun. Sitting upright in the mud/grass were the remains of a DG Eclipse, next to a stack of DEC RL02 disks about three feet high. piles anf piles of old dot matrix printers were next to several equipment racks. An old school bus stood forlornly by. It was stuffed to the gills with equipment.A hazeltine terminal/computer half buried in the mud. A Variax? 10KW I was greeted by Roy and we entered his house. I should say warehouse, as the this house was crammed from floor to ceiling with computers, test equipment and electronics gear. The floors were concrete and suported industrial steel racks packed full of stuff..in every room save one! Have you ever seen people who have collected books or papers and went overboard..Well imagine this with computers.Not just computers, but old computers and electronic gear. On my hour tour of the premise, I spotted: At least three Data General Nova 2 and Nova 3's, with a paper reader and terminals. All in great condition. One was turned on for me! At least two HP 1000 and at least one HP 2100 series. Dozens of Tektronix terminals and the early 405xx series computers Roomfulls of HP testing and analyzer equipment and so many of the early HP computers they were too numerous to count. Shelves and shelves full of old DG terminals (the oval ones) Ahmdahl terminals At least two ASR 33's and some teletypes that might be even older. A rack full of a pre WW11 commercial radio transmitter. WWII and later aviation instruments! A TOW missle. (the warhead had been replaced with intrumentation and there was no fuel in the missle but the rocket engine was intact) A very early laser! A shelf crammed with DEC decpacks RK11/RK02 all with RT-11 inscribed on the sides. A big amount a older DEC documentation! Huge bookshelfs full of documentation forTektronics, HP, DEC most pre-1990 some pre-80! some pre 70!!! A large file cabinet stuffed with new in the box 8" floppies., paper tapes 8" inch floppy drives of all makes and models. Various disks from HP to DEC to DG.(dozens) A room dedicated to electronic testing equipment, mainly HP but also scores of others. most pre-1980. dozens of Oscilliscopes. A scanning electron microscope! Dec VT52, VT100 terminals. It was said there is a VT05? hiding somewhere! It was almost too much for me too comprehend. I'll be heading over there soon to pick up an RX02 that I spied hiding in a corner. O yeah.. a parting gift included a LSI-11 that looked somewhat complete, all the cards. There was a unibus pdp11 buried somewhere in the racks of equipment, behind other racks of equipment. There was more stuff that I probably missed or forgot than what I remembered (I didn't take notes!) This may take a while! Cheers Tom From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 18 15:10:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:10:40 -0500 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508181510.40734.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 18 August 2005 15:05, William Donzelli wrote: > > And can anyone recommend any of the cool cards/options to look out > > for? It's my first AIX box. > > There are some ass-kicking (for the time) video cards for the very > early RS/6000s that took up three slots (!). IME they're not that rare. Of course if you look at who my 'supplier' is (vvv), I guess that might explain why. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 14:32:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:32:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 18, 5 02:34:40 am Message-ID: > > > Sometimes you'll run into "tamper-resistant Torx" which is regular > > torx with a pin in the center of the screw. > > I've seen those, though not (so far) in disk drives. > > I have an interchangeable-bit screwdriver whose set of bits includes > some three dozen "security" bits of various kinds. I don't know the > names of most of them, but there are pin-in-the-middle torx, > pin-in-the-middle hexagon ("Allen"), something I might call a > three-bladed Phillips (like a Phillips but with one vane removed and Called 'Tri Wing' over here > the remaining three vanes at 120=B0 from one another), "offset" Phillips > (like Phillips with each vane offset to the side by approximately its I've heard those refered to as Torq. > own thickness), two-point bits (for which the screw head is solid with > two small holes, one on each side of centre), and what I might call > "butterfly" bits - I have no simple unambiguous name for the shape, but > for those who know PostScript or who have a PostScript interpreter, > "250 500 translate 0 -15 moveto 0 0 50 -40 40 arc 0 15 lineto 0 0 50 > 140 220 arc closepath stroke" gives a fair idea of it. The main one you seem to be missing is System Zero. The screw head is slighlt tapers (so that pliers/vise grips/mole wrenches just slip off), domed on to, and has 6 notaches round the edge. And yes I have seen them used in classic computer equipment. For some odd reason the Ferret EPOROM programmer is assembled with them, I've also seen them in modems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 14:37:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:37:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 18, 5 09:39:04 am Message-ID: > Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. Those seem to be I've never seen Bristol spline tools in the form of hex insert bits. > rather old; the only place I ran into them is in a 1950s vintage THere are 2 common-ish places to find them in classic computers. One is in Friden flexowriters, the set screws (grub screws) in the belt pulleys, etc, are Bristol Spline. The other is in the PSU/monitor area of the IBM 5155 Portable. A friend told me they're also common in IBM typewrters, but I've never had one of those in to repair. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 18 15:13:49 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Heaven and Hell! In-Reply-To: <4304EC2A.7060708@theriver.com> Message-ID: > A rack full of a pre WW11 commercial radio transmitter. Do you remember the datatag on this transmitter? The make (RCA, Western Electric, etc.)? Anyway, keep us informed of the goodies. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 18 15:12:18 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> three-bladed Phillips ["tri-wing", apparently] > I've seen those used on airliner wings -- 737 perhaps. I have a Nokia cellphone wall-wart charger that is held together with such a screw. (So far it's the only use I've made of any of the tri-wing bits - taking that apart out of curiosity.) > Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. [...] I don't think I've ever seen that, neither driver nor screw. Perhaps they're more common on the European side of the pond? I seem to recall Tony talking about them a lot. > [...]; if you need to undo a Bristol spline screw, you'll need the > real tool. The description makes it sound as though a flat-blade bit should work, if it's the right width to fit snugly into a diameter of the cylinder; it should fetch up against two of the splines, and while it likely would bend them out of true, it seems it should drive/draw the screw. Or have I misunderstood? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 18 15:20:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508180847.35662.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200508180847.35662.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200508182023.QAA24493@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Incase someone is interested, the names of the security bits are... [...] >> what I might call "butterfly" bits - [...] > That sounds like a 'clutch bit' as far as I can guess. Does the head > look like an hourglass if viewed appropriately? A bit - an hourglass with curved, not straight, "top" and "bottom" edges, and with a rather fat waist-pinch. Oh, and straight lines from the corners to the waist pinch, not the curves most hourglasses have. Oh, and I forgot to mention, in my enumeration of the bits, the regular torxes. Not that I think the omission terribly serious.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jhoger at pobox.com Thu Aug 18 15:31:02 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:31:02 -0700 Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR Message-ID: <1124397063.28931.43.camel@aragorn> Does anyone here have knowledge of the protocol used by the DOS6 INTERLNK/INTERSVR utilities? Thanks, -- John. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 18 15:32:08 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:32:08 -0500 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050818153132.05436c68@mail> At 03:12 PM 8/18/2005, der Mouse wrote: >I have a Nokia cellphone wall-wart charger that is held together with >such a screw. (So far it's the only use I've made of any of the >tri-wing bits - taking that apart out of curiosity.) McDonald's Happy Meal toys and Nintendo gear also use them. - John From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Aug 18 15:54:08 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:54:08 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-06-24 18:50:06 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-23 23:09:51 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: VAX 6000-320 > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211981884 > > > > I'd *love* to get this machine (trying to get one of those for about two > > years), but shipping from UK to Germany would probably kill me :( > > Well, I'm actually considering to bid on it. That is, I'm trying to > organize how to move the box over to Germany with a van or trailer. > Though, I need to get it, too... There we are. The machine arrived at a friend's house today. He'll host the machine for me, since I've got, um, erm, some problems finding a good place in my basement. On the first sight, the machine looks quite nice. Some scratches at it's right side, but nothing major. After opening the box, there's some shite dust (I guess it's from drilling holes into some wall...), but it's a nice view. Two CPUs, as expected, three memory boards (I haven't noted their part numbers, but from guessing their size from the used ICs, they're 32MB each, so 96MB in total). One board (in the XMI cage) was a T2027, which is a XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) Two BI adaptors connect the two halves of the BI cabinet. 11 of its 12 slots are filled (two boards are the matching bus adaptors, so there are 9 "real" boards installed). I haven't in detail looked at the boards, but the connectors on the back tell me, theres at least an async serial board (-> 8 additional DB25 connectors), two BNC connector plates (CI?) and the FDDI connector(s). We first started to off-screw a lot of metal to redice it's weight. We can now basically lift the machine with two people for some seconds, so I hope we'll manage to get the machine down into the basement with four men. Then some cleaning up, re-assembling. How can test the five power supply units? Three-phase power is already available, so is it okay to pull the cards and start the box or are additional resistors (car lamps, ...) needed? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 16:10:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Did you expect it to make sense?? (was: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050818123454.04ffa960@mail.30below.com> References: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050818123454.04ffa960@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050818140912.Q43055@shell.lmi.net> > > > > Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > > > > assignation, and "=" > > > > as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > > > > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > > > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > > > even though it's not my computer. > > > >I know. And if you want to leave a unix shell and you type "exit", you > >then have to press Enter to do it. > > What about the fact that you have to have a home directory, even if you're > at work???? :-O . . . and you go "UP" to get to the "root" ? . . . and you can't see the background through an open window ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 16:11:30 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 18, 2005 12:18:01 PM Message-ID: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> > Anyone have a TK30 manual? Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 18 16:17:36 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:17:36 -0700 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4304FAF0.80107@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Anyone have a TK30 manual? > > > Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? How to make the damn thing quit screeching whenever it's attached to a bus and powered on? Doc From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 16:22:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:22:58 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a Jan-Benedict> T2027, which is a XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a common board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into isn't easy anymore... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 16:26:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:26:26 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17156.64770.718000.897808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. [...] der> I don't think I've ever seen that, neither driver nor screw. der> Perhaps they're more common on the European side of the pond? I der> seem to recall Tony talking about them a lot. Mine is in a Collins mil-spec radio, from around 1950. I think they may be obsolete at this point. >> [...]; if you need to undo a Bristol spline screw, you'll need the >> real tool. der> The description makes it sound as though a flat-blade bit should der> work, if it's the right width to fit snugly into a diameter of der> the cylinder; it should fetch up against two of the splines, and der> while it likely would bend them out of true, it seems it should der> drive/draw the screw. That sounds possible in principle. It may not work in practice; the grooves are rather shallow, maybe 10-15% of the bit diameter. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 16:26:41 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <4304FAF0.80107@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Aug 18, 2005 02:17:36 PM Message-ID: <200508182126.j7ILQfhp005424@onyx.spiritone.com> Doc wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? > > How to make the damn thing quit screeching whenever it's attached to > a bus and powered on? My guess is that there is something wrong with that drive. I've never heard a TZ30 "screech". I've had them plugged into my PDP-11 as well as VAXen and Alpha's. Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 16:28:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:28:02 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17156.64866.187000.536969@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. Those seem to >> be Tony> I've never seen Bristol spline tools in the form of hex insert Tony> bits. I haven't either. I have them in two forms: one is XCelite bits, which are full length shafts that fit into a handle -- and the other is in the same shape as an Allen wrench, the simple L-shaped kind. paul From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Aug 18 16:30:09 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:30:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Did you expect it to make sense?? (was: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <20050818140912.Q43055@shell.lmi.net> References: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050818123454.04ffa960@mail.30below.com> <20050818140912.Q43055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: These are easily explained, when you consider the programmer lifestyle: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >> What about the fact that you have to have a home directory, even if you're >> at work???? :-O Work often feels like home, whereas home is a place to get some sleep. > . . . and you go "UP" to get to the "root" ? The real trees you'd need to look at to determin that's wrong are outside. Programmers don't go there often. > . . . and you can't see the background through an open window ? This is a safety measure; open windows let in deadly sunlight therefore, for user safety, all windows should be opaque. Alexey From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 18 16:45:20 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:45:20 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43050170.nailL51117FM4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [Bristol splines in classic computers] They are also predominant in the R-390A geartrain. While the R-390A is a radio and thus off-topic, its geartrain is a very competent analog computer (power-of-two division, differential for adding, etc.) from the 1950's and thus on-topic! (OK, the R-390A does have a tube-based divide-by-two flip flop as well.) Tim. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 16:46:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:46:07 -0400 Subject: Reading DECtapes (was 1/2" tape cleaner?) References: Message-ID: <17157.415.49000.127973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: >> I think that Al Kossow has lots of experience reading old >> DECtapes based on the good DecTape archives that he has on >> bitsavers. Al, can you share a little of your experience and >> insight with the rest of us? How well do these things hold up >> 30-35 years later when they are actually being read and written >> to on a TU56? >> -- Al> very, very well. Al> The tapes have redundant track encoding, they are pretty low Al> density, and the formulation doesn't stick. Al> I've read tapes from the mid 60's w/o a problem. Al> I have a bit-level reader with custom read amps coming to deal Al> with the couple of marginal tapes and LINCtapes that I have. Wow. DECtapes are amazing. They have the oxide embedded between two layers of mylar, which is why they stand up so well to very heavy use. It IS possible to wear them out, but not easy. We did it in college, where we had some DECtapes that were the primary public file storage. There are stories from DEC about DECtapes that were in someone's pocket and went through the laundry, without any damage. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 18 16:48:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:48:05 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? References: <200508181758.j7IHwwHB007573@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4792F4DF-1014-11DA-9ADC-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <17157.533.457000.328944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jos" == Jos Dreesen writes: >> I'd also be curious to hear from Ashley (or others) how reading >> old DECtapes goes - do you ever have "sticktion" problems? or see >> stick-shed syndrom? >> >> Jos> Never had any problems with with reading and writing old Jos> DECtapes. Jos> I did experience problems when reformatting PDP-11 formatted Jos> tapes to PDP-8 ones. DECtapes? That is bizarre, since the DECtape formatter would rewrite everything from scratch, the timing tracks, mark tracks, everything... paul From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 18 16:44:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Anyone have a TK30 manual? > > Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? Nope, TK30. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 16:55:38 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Aug 18, 2005 02:44:06 PM Message-ID: <200508182155.j7ILtcht006210@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > Anyone have a TK30 manual? > > > > Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? > > Nope, TK30. OK, I'll bite, what on earth is a TK30? Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 16:59:16 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:59:16 +0100 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c5a440$14f9e1f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Nope, TK30. There was a TK50 (and a TK70 etc.). There was also a TZ30, which was a TK50 with a SCSI interface. There was even (before all of those) a TK25. But I've never ever heard of a TK30. What is it? Is it DEC kit at all? Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 17/08/2005 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 18 17:10:10 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:10:10 +0100 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <000601c5a441$9aa6a850$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >How can test the five power supply units? I don't think there are any load boards for either the XMI or the BI bus - I presume that's because there is no need for them. The PSU regulating modules are clearly visible at the back. They can source a considerable current (300A springs to mind) so if you really do want to stick voltmeter probes there you'll want to make sure you have no rings or other metalwork anywhere and you must replace the protective plastic covers when you are done. That large a current will do very nasty things even though it is only low voltage. >Three-phase power is already available, so is it okay >to pull the cards and start the box or are additional >resistors (car lamps, ...) needed? I'm reasonably sure I've powered up an empty VAX 6000 box before now with no ill effects. (Empty apart from the console tape etc.). I also recall that there are other power connectors around for various add-ons (you could add RA7x disks to later cabs) so you might be able to provide a load that way if you find it does need one. If you hunt around on the web you can find various people who have done a 1-phase conversion on the box - they probably have experience of what you need to do to test the PSU. There's lots of documentation on http://vt100.net/manx. Look for any VAX 6000 docs and any KA62-KA66 docs. Anything with XMI in the title should be useful too. I used to support the drivers for the DSB32 and DMB32 so once you get around to trying those out I may be able to provide some hints. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/75 - Release Date: 17/08/2005 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 18 17:13:05 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C11@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> from Gary Fisher at "Aug 18, 5 01:12:12 pm" Message-ID: <200508182213.PAA15326@floodgap.com> > Now what would be really fun would be to patch Qlink to work with the > MMC-64 or Retro Replay with an RR-net card Why not use a UDS-10? That'll work Right Now (tm). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Coffee. Delight. Border. May I see your passport please? -- Firesign Theater From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 18 17:54:13 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:54:13 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:01:00 PDT." <09ae6f73cd935ebcf55741348761a94b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200508182254.j7IMsDmC027313@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > > These can clean and burnish tapes in good > > shape but can also ruin a tape in bad shape. > >It sounds like what you have are bad tapes. >Why would you risk them on a certifier/cleaner? A good question, but what I have are "dry tapes". The oxide is in fine shape but has lost it's lubrication. If a tape is in really bad shape and is at risk of loosing oxide or has mold on it, then I would never use a cleaner. Or if the media had so much moisture in it that it was gumming up the heads, I would not use a cleaner. However, the cleaner has uses other than cleaning. I'd like to use the cleaner with the cleaning turned off (basically the tape lifted above the cleaning wheel) to retension the tape. I'd also like to use it to relubricate the tape. The tapes I have did not respond to baking. The will read ok for bit but eventually start "sqeeking" and won't pass over the read head cleanly. This appears to be due to a lack of lubrication. I did an experiment where I basically hand reeled the tape over a roller with silicone and the tape then read perfectly. This matches with some of the documentation I've found which talks about common problems with older tapes. Some audio folks recommended using a silcone based lubricant (sparingly, very sparingly). I found it worked and didn't appear to harm the tape at all. If I had a vacume column drive which floated the tape over the heads without contact I suspect this would not be a problem :-) but I don't have access to such a drive. (actually, do such drives even exist? even the nice ibm drives I used to use would run the tape over the heads - I know because we had to clean them) -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 18 18:23:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <200508182254.j7IMsDmC027313@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 18, 2005 06:54:13 PM Message-ID: <200508182323.j7INNZhf008252@onyx.spiritone.com> > If I had a vacume column drive which floated the tape over the heads > without contact I suspect this would not be a problem :-) but I don't > have access to such a drive. (actually, do such drives even exist? I doubt it. Wouldn't that make for interesting problems with reading and writing the tapes? > even the nice ibm drives I used to use would run the tape over the heads > - I know because we had to clean them) Ditto for the Honeywell drives I used to use. Zane From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 18 20:02:40 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:02:40 -0400 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <000401c5a440$14f9e1f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000401c5a440$14f9e1f0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <43052FB0.nailN901CANDW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > But I've never ever heard of a TK30. It's not in the Edited Option/Module lists I have, and they list some pretty obscure CSS stuff (e.g. RX03, RQDX4). If Sellam could provide a description (e.g. "QIC" would mean some TK25 variant most likely, "square cartridges" would mean really a TZ30, etc.) it would help. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 18 20:50:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:50:21 -0500 Subject: HP 7900 disk platter plays Spike Jones hit??? References: <3.0.6.16.20050818141046.3da7454e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007b01c5a460$5c4468d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Yes, Joe is correct. The seller is making some rather amusing sarcastic jokes to call attention to the fact that the platter is for wallhanging, not using, so don't try to return it because it's obviously had a fairly severe head crash - or an encounter with an electric sander ;) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 20:11:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <17156.64866.187000.536969@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Aug 18, 5 05:28:02 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> Sounds like all you're missing is Bristol Spline. Those seem to > >> be > Tony> I've never seen Bristol spline tools in the form of hex insert > Tony> bits. > > I haven't either. I have them in two forms: one is XCelite bits, > which are full length shafts that fit into a handle -- and the other > is in the same shape as an Allen wrench, the simple L-shaped kind. Yes, those are what I've seen too... I have the Xcellite 'roll' which as somebody (you?) said includes them. I added the straight ratchet handle and the Pozidrive bits to the roll (enough spare pockets for them...) and bought the metric allen hex keys, Torx driers, metric nutdrivers and inch-size ball-ended allen hex as separate sets. All I'm missing from that range is the metric ball-ended hex. I've seen L-shaped bristol spline keys in cataloges, I've never seen the need to get them though. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 18 20:54:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:54:17 -0500 Subject: Wanted... IBM 3270 or similar Message-ID: <00f201c5a460$e88d30b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Looking for a 3278, 3279, or 3194 (IBM terminals). I guess the 3194's are preferred just due to shipping weight. Anyone have one around for trade? Jay West From James at jdfogg.com Thu Aug 18 21:22:12 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:22:12 -0400 Subject: Some days you win, some days you lose Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5660@sbs.jdfogg.com> I was talking with a woman I'd met during a "freecycle" pickup and we were talking about things we collect. She mentioned she used to have an old DECmate with all the floppies and books. It was in her ex-husbands basement and she agreed to ask if it was still around. It wasn't and it had met the worst fate :-( -James From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 18 21:25:41 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:25:41 -0700 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? Message-ID: <851b28b1c598873c655a49d2eda53858@bitsavers.org> If I had a vacume column drive which floated the tape over the heads without contact I suspect this would not be a problem :-) -- Look at what John B. is doing at readtapes.com Normal heads apply several pounds of pressure from the tape to the head surface. By using magnetorestrictive heads, you can cut that to a few ounces. If you thing about how a normal head works, it closes the loop of an electromagnet with the oxide on the tape, so it REQUIRES physical contact to work. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 18 21:37:51 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:37:51 -0500 Subject: Rescue of DEC Gear in Nashville, TN (More info on racks...) References: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200508171428.36427.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <016101c5a466$feff97b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote... > "I believe all the cabinets are original DEC. The main cabinet is a 'DEC > DataSystem' rack about 5.5' tall. The RL02 and the Winchester are housed > in > a DEC cabinet about 3 to 4 ft tall. Finally there is the "desk" which > holds > the floppies." I have been looking for a long time for a particular dec rack. It looks exactly like an H960, except it's 4'2" tall, and has a slight bevel at the top front. I don't need side panels for it. It's to turn my dual-bay 8E into a tri-bay 8E so I can fit an RK05 drive in the mix with the TU10, TU56, PC04, and 8E cpu and keep the existing doors & panels :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 18 21:53:38 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:53:38 -0500 Subject: to those who offered to help Message-ID: <01a401c5a469$33919f30$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Thanks SO much for all those who offered to help gate posts from cctalk to cctech. I'm in the process of writing something up that gives instructions on how exactly to do what is needed. Then I'll send off the instructions to those who are in the right timezones across the globe :) Jay West From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 22:02:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:02:39 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43054BCF.3060108@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>And can anyone recommend any of the cool cards/options to look out >>for? It's my first AIX box. > > > There are some ass-kicking (for the time) video cards for the very early > RS/6000s that took up three slots (!). Pretty rare. Even rarer are the > very cool routing coprocessor cards. I have found the 10base2 and V.35 > routing cards in the wild, but the FDDI and HSSI cards are basically > unavailable. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > I've found all of those cards fairly often on ebay. FDDI cards go for cheap. I have loads of them. Peace... Sridhar From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Aug 18 22:06:13 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:06:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple IIe serial card Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E63@mail.catcorner.org> Subject says it all. I would need it shipped to 07461 (New Jersey). Let me know how much you would want for it, including shipping. Thanks, Kelly From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 18 22:27:55 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:27:55 -0700 Subject: New POWER toys Message-ID: <4998e9176dab34b28280fca7618b22c7@bitsavers.org> > There are some ass-kicking (for the time) video cards for the very early > RS/6000s that took up three slots (!). They were based on the early SGI 4D chip sets. It would run the SGI flight simulator (I had a set in the RS/6000 I used for early PPC Mac development) From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 18 22:30:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <43054BCF.3060108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've found all of those cards fairly often on ebay. FDDI cards go for > cheap. I have loads of them. Are we talking about the same cards? The ones I am referring to are known as "F960", "H960", "E386" and so forth. The first letter refers to the interface (FDDI, HSSI, Ethernet, and so forth) and the number indicates the processor. A stripped down AIX ran on these cards (yes, AIX on a 80386 - deal with it) to perform the routing. The host RS/6000 basically just did housekeeping. The FDDI and HSSI cards (I don't think) ever became a real product, with less than 300 or so made. The V.35 and Ethernet cards did, and pop up from time to time (they were used in a specially badged RS/6000-320 called a Network Processor). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 18 22:31:12 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:31:12 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: References: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <43055280.2030504@jbrain.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is >> going well. At present, the following is working: > > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the > early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then > (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). > > Zane > > I think that was PC-Link, which (with Apple-Link) was rolled together under Case to make AOL. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 18 22:38:27 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:38:27 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C11@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> References: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C11@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> Message-ID: <43055433.1070106@jbrain.com> Gary Fisher wrote: >>Message: 14 >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:01:09 -0500 >>From: Jim Brain >>Subject: QuantumLink pics >>To: Classic Computer Talk >>Message-ID: <43043235.1000404 at jbrain.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: >>http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ >>Jim >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> > >Great work Jim! I always wanted to know what Qlink looked like. I used Compuserve at the time and it's interface was pretty basic. > > Now what would be really fun would be to patch Qlink to work with the MMC-64 or Retro Replay with an RR-net card and go through the internet! Has anybody ever tried it? > > Not yet. Putting a whole TCP/IP stack in the machine might be a bit much, but I'll not say it's impossible. Note though that we did go through the Internet (albeit via a slave PC COM port). Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 18 23:04:52 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:04:52 -0700 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43055A64.2070607@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > Are we talking about the same cards? The ones I am referring to are known > as "F960", "H960", "E386" and so forth. The first letter refers to the > interface (FDDI, HSSI, Ethernet, and so forth) and the number indicates > the processor. A stripped down AIX ran on these cards (yes, AIX on a > 80386 - deal with it) to perform the routing. The host RS/6000 basically > just did housekeeping. > > The FDDI and HSSI cards (I don't think) ever became a real product, with > less than 300 or so made. The V.35 and Ethernet cards did, and pop up from > time to time (they were used in a specially badged RS/6000-320 called a > Network Processor). Some of those V.35 cards were in service as recently as 2 years go in Austin, running in a set of 7012-39x systems. For all I know they still are - they were doing the job they were installed to do and the company hadn't found a great replacement, so they may be running them still. We're not talking some mom & pop ISP operation, either. This was in a major backbone provider's NOC. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 18 23:08:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:08:28 -0500 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as >>assignation, and "=" >>as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > even though it's not my computer. Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh zealots by reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file in the Trash to delete it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, it... pops out of the machine. One would assume putting a disk in the Trash would format/erase it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 8/18/2005 From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 18 23:14:02 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:14:02 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <43055C8A.5090406@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: > My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: Well, this is one of the coolest things I've seen this year. Many congratuations on getting your initial stages working. You know what I miss? Prodigy. I miss the high-resolution vector graphics -- some truly amazing pictures went down the 1200 baud wire amazingly quickly because the vector art obviously took up much less space than bitmap art (even ASCII art!). In 1989, it was the web before the web was even concieved (including advertising!!). There was a Prodigy 'demo' disk floating around that simulated a Prodigy session to try to get people to sign up. It didn't require the service itself, or even a modem -- does anyone have this disk? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 8/18/2005 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 19 00:22:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Aug 18, 5 11:08:28 pm" Message-ID: <200508190522.WAA14686@floodgap.com> > Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh zealots by > reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file in the Trash to delete > it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, it... pops out of the machine. One > would assume putting a disk in the Trash would format/erase it. I believe the original rationale for this was "putting it away." I'm done with a file, so I'll trash it; I'm done with the disk, so I'll trash it. Not saying this made sense (or maybe it did with a little Mary Jane), but I think that was the intention. Note that OS X turns the trash can into an Eject icon when you start dragging a volume around, so it looks like this concept has since been abandoned. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From tomj at wps.com Fri Aug 19 00:33:27 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nerding out with termcap Message-ID: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> aka: nostalgia right under our noses This is one of those admissions like enjoying listening to Barry Manilow or something... So I'm making a computer for my car (freeBSD on a mini-ITX box) and I'm hacking a "terminal" in an old AM radio chassis (a PIC, two rotary encoders (VOLUME and TUNE), two momentary switches on the shafts and a 4x20 LCD) to run a Perl script that drives mpg321. I need to borrow a simple (trivial!) cursor control scheme for the LCD, so I decide to peruse /etc/termcap. The comments in termcap are hilarious. There's a lot of obsolete knowledge and funny comments in there, from when the unix world was a lot smaller. I assume the same ancient crud is lodged in linux also. Check out the 'homemade' entries! You can know your bones are foundation of the earth when your homemade terminal is documented in distribution termcap! # ^S is an arrow key! Boy is this guy in for a surprise on v7! sol:\ ... # dmchat is like DM2500, but DOES need "all that padding" (jcm 1/31/82) # also, has a meta-key (MT) # from goldberger at su-csli.arpa dmchat|dmchat version of datamedia 2500:\ ... # The Visual 200 beeps when you type a character in insert mode. # This is a horribly obnoxious misfeature, and some of the entries # below try to get around the problem by ignoring the feature or # turning it off when inputting a character. They are said not to # work well at 300 baud. (You could always cut the wire to the bell!) # From mike at brl-vgr Mon Nov 14 08:34:29 1983 vi200|vis200|visual 200 with function keys:\ ... # From cbosg!teklabs!davem Wed Sep 16 21:11:41 1981 # Here's the command file that I use to get rogue to work on the 4025. # It should work with any program using the old curses (e.g. it better # not try to scroll, or cursor addressing won't work. Also, you can't # see the cursor.) # (This "learns" the arrow keys for rogue. I have adapted it for termcap - mrh) 4025-cr|tek 4025 for curses and rogue:\ ... # i: INFOTON (GENERAL TERMINAL) # # Infoton is now called General Terminal Corp. or some such thing. # gt100 sounds like something DEC would come out with. Lets hope they don't. i100|gt100|gt100a|General Terminal 100A (formerly Infoton 100):\ ... # l: LEAR SIEGLER (ADM) # # If the adm31 gives you trouble with standout mode, check the DIP switch # in position 6, bank @c11, 25% from back end of pc. Should be OFF. # If there is no such switch, you have an old adm31 and must use oadm31 adm2|lsi adm2:\ ... # q: HOME MADE TERMINALS # bill croft homebrew:\ :do=^J:am:le=^H:bs:cm=\E=%+ %+ :cl=^Z:co#96:ho=^^:li#72:\ :nd=^L:up=^K:vb=: ... # This came from the comp ctr who got it from some user. Smart indeed! sexidy|exidy smart:\ ... # Special "terminals". These are used to label tty lines when you don't # know what kind of terminal is on it. The characteristics of an unknown # terminal are the lowest common denominator - they look about like a ti 700. # The last one, "other", is like unknown but it allows an escape from software # that insists that a "real" unknown terminal is merely so far unspecified. ... arpanet:\ :tc=unknown: ... plugboard|patch|patchboard:\ :tc=unknown: ... # "Teleray Arpa Special", officially designated as # "Teleray Arpa network model 10" with "Special feature 720". # This is the new (1981) fast microcode updating the older "arpa" proms # (which gave meta-key and pgmmable-fxn keys). 720 is much much faster, # converts the keypad to programmable function keys, and has other goodies. # Standout mode is still broken (magic cookie, etc) so is suppressed as no # programs handle such lossage properly. # Note: this is NOT the old termcap's "t1061f with fast proms." # From Univ of Utah, J.Lepreau Tue Feb 1 06:39:37 1983 # lepreau at utah-cs, harpo!utah-cs!lepreau ... # New version from ee178aci%sdcc7 at SDCSVAX.ARPA Fri Oct 11 21:27:00 1985 apple-80|apple II with smarterm 80 col:\ :am:bs:bt=^R:bw:cd=10*^K:ce=10^]:cl=10*^L:cm=^^%r%+ %+ :\ :co#80:cr=10*^M:do=^J:ho=^Y:le=^H:li#24:nd=^\\:up=^_: lisa|apple lisa console display, black on white:\ ... From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Aug 19 00:48:52 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:48:52 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <000601c5a441$9aa6a850$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <000601c5a441$9aa6a850$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <20050819054852.GC24222@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-08-18 23:10:10 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > If you hunt around on the web you can find various > people who have done a 1-phase conversion on the > box - they probably have experience of what you > need to do to test the PSU. Well, information is sparse. I've heared rumors there's one HOWTO including more detailed description and (especially) some images, but I've got three-phase power around, so I can use it (after throwing away the original 25A plug and substituting it with a 16A version which is more common in private buildings...) > There's lots of documentation on http://vt100.net/manx. > Look for any VAX 6000 docs and any KA62-KA66 docs. > Anything with XMI in the title should be useful too. Already printed everything 6000 specific out; didn't yet dig for XMI documents. > I used to support the drivers for the DSB32 and > DMB32 so once you get around to trying those out > I may be able to provide some hints. ...for which operating system? NetBSD? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Aug 19 01:07:31 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:07:31 +0200 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaner? In-Reply-To: <17157.533.457000.328944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <870BDCDF-1077-11DA-9ADC-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > Jos> I did experience problems when reformatting PDP-11 formatted > Jos> tapes to PDP-8 ones. > > DECtapes? That is bizarre, since the DECtape formatter would rewrite > everything from scratch, the timing tracks, mark tracks, everything... > > paul I realize that, but this has occured to often to be just a coincidence. It might have to do with alignment, since my TU56 had to be rebuild. Jos From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Aug 19 01:08:44 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:08:44 +1000 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <44A1CE91-68D2-4960-BB3F-644DCC3DBDD3@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 19/08/2005, at 2:08 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh > zealots by reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file > in the Trash to delete it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, > it... pops out of the machine. One would assume putting a disk in > the Trash would format/erase it. I remember my mother nearly hitting me when I did that to eject a floppy off her Mac - she was really worried that I was about to delete all the French assignments she had written (she used to teach French and these were class exercises). For a machine were considerable work went into designing the human computer interface, this one is slightly strange. I see even with Mac OS-X that this still works, it's just that the trash can icon changes to be a disk eject icon. Some would argue that the Mac interface hasn't got better over the years, but there's no arguing that the engine underneath certainly has. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Aug 19 01:10:59 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:10:59 +1000 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <5DE7A79C-BEFD-4A9D-8F9B-DEFD28FA48DE@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 28/06/2005, at 1:04 AM, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > This, my friends, is truly, truly hilarious and awesome... > > "Digital VAX 6320 PC, approx 5.5 ft high 4 foot deep and 3 foot wide, > needs 3 phase mains to operate."" > > A PC that runs on 3 phase...nothing personal about that, LOL! It can still be personal if you're the only person that logs in. ISTR that 6300s could be modified to run on single phase power - is this just an illusion from the latest batch of pain killers I'm taking or does someone remember this too? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 19 02:16:40 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:16:40 -0700 Subject: HP 12597 I/O interface on ebay References: <4304B136.3070900@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <43058751.DCBBFD03@cs.ubc.ca> This may be irrelevant by this time, but wasn't somebody (Jay?) looking for an HP 8-bit duplex I/O interface a little while ago? If so, the seller of the Spike Jones 7900 platter has one up for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5230762225&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcN_BID (just in case you didn't see it) From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Aug 19 05:17:33 2005 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:17:33 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <5DE7A79C-BEFD-4A9D-8F9B-DEFD28FA48DE@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <014201c5a4a7$37437a70$6401a8c0@Lapdog> > ISTR that 6300s could be modified to run on single phase power - is this > just an illusion from the latest batch of pain killers I'm taking or does > someone remember this too? I've done it, and know of at least two others. AFAIK all 6000 machines can run on single-phase, but I've only experienced a U.S. machine. There are a few websites describing the process, and I'd be happy to answer what questions I can. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Bob From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 07:15:25 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:15:25 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <4998e9176dab34b28280fca7618b22c7@bitsavers.org> References: <4998e9176dab34b28280fca7618b22c7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4305CD5D.1000904@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > There are some ass-kicking (for the time) video cards for the very early > > RS/6000s that took up three slots (!). > > They were based on the early SGI 4D chip sets. > It would run the SGI flight simulator (I had a set in the RS/6000 I used > for early PPC Mac development) It's called the IRISvision/MC. I have one. I've found that the later high-speed MCA graphics cards designed to work with later MCA RS/6000's tend to be quite a bit faster. Plus the IRISvision only supports AIX<4. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 07:20:28 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:20:28 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4305CE8C.30105@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > I've found all of those cards fairly often on ebay. FDDI cards go for > > cheap. I have loads of them. > > Are we talking about the same cards? The ones I am referring to are known > as "F960", "H960", "E386" and so forth. The first letter refers to the > interface (FDDI, HSSI, Ethernet, and so forth) and the number indicates > the processor. A stripped down AIX ran on these cards (yes, AIX on a > 80386 - deal with it) to perform the routing. The host RS/6000 basically > just did housekeeping. I don't know what the model is called, but the genuine IBM card has FRU#93F0377. I see them all the time. The SAS interface is a single MCA card. The DAS interface is an MCA card with a MCA daughtercard which takes (I believe) only power from the slot and communicates to the main board via a ribbon cable. MIC connectors all around. A bit rarer, but still not that uncommon are the Syskonnect SK-5241/5261 MCA FDDI interfaces. > The FDDI and HSSI cards (I don't think) ever became a real product, with > less than 300 or so made. The V.35 and Ethernet cards did, and pop up from > time to time (they were used in a specially badged RS/6000-320 called a > Network Processor). I believe I have a MCA V.35 card or two. The ones I have are ARTIC960 i960-based coprocessed serial interfaces that speak V.35. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 07:22:06 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:22:06 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43055C8A.5090406@oldskool.org> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> <43055C8A.5090406@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4305CEEE.40902@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: > >> My apologies, but there are some pictures, if interested: > > > Well, this is one of the coolest things I've seen this year. Many > congratuations on getting your initial stages working. > > You know what I miss? Prodigy. I miss the high-resolution vector > graphics -- some truly amazing pictures went down the 1200 baud wire > amazingly quickly because the vector art obviously took up much less > space than bitmap art (even ASCII art!). In 1989, it was the web before > the web was even concieved (including advertising!!). > > There was a Prodigy 'demo' disk floating around that simulated a Prodigy > session to try to get people to sign up. It didn't require the service > itself, or even a modem -- does anyone have this disk? That brings back some memories. Prodigy helped get me through junior high. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 07:26:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:26:39 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <014201c5a4a7$37437a70$6401a8c0@Lapdog> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <5DE7A79C-BEFD-4A9D-8F9B-DEFD28FA48DE@kerberos.davies.net.au> <014201c5a4a7$37437a70$6401a8c0@Lapdog> Message-ID: <4305CFFF.5010202@gmail.com> Robert Schaefer wrote: >> ISTR that 6300s could be modified to run on single phase power - is >> this just an illusion from the latest batch of pain killers I'm >> taking or does someone remember this too? > > > I've done it, and know of at least two others. AFAIK all 6000 machines > can run on single-phase, but I've only experienced a U.S. machine. > There are a few websites describing the process, and I'd be happy to > answer what questions I can. I've done it too. I hooked the two live legs of a 220V dryer line to the three live legs (one to one, one to two) on the 3-phase connector, plus neutral to neutral and ground to ground. Worked fine. Peace... Sridhar From hachti at hachti.de Fri Aug 19 07:29:53 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:29:53 +0200 Subject: DG Nova 2 Message-ID: <4305D0C1.8050708@hachti.de> Hi folks, there is a DG Nova 2 on eBay here in Germany. It is said to be non-functional but I'm still interested. Does anybody know about that system: - When has it been manufactured (Seller writes 1978 but I doubt)? - How is the state of available hardware docs? - Which kind of memory and logic families are used? - LSI or TTL? - Is that a cool computer? Anyx other information welcome, too... Thanks, Philipp :-) From ken at seefried.com Fri Aug 19 07:53:47 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:53:47 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <200508190521.j7J5L0Sw033017@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508190521.j7J5L0Sw033017@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4305D65B.7030404@seefried.com> William Donzelli wrote: >(they were used in a specially badged RS/6000-320 called a > Network Processor). == 6611 Ken From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Fri Aug 19 07:57:31 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:57:31 -0600 Subject: QuantumLink pics Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010C13@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> >Message: 30 >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:38:27 -0500 >From: Jim Brain >Subject: Re: QuantumLink pics >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Message-ID: <43055433.1070106 at jbrain.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >> >>Great work Jim! I always wanted to know what Qlink looked like. I used Compuserve at the time and it's interface was pretty basic. >> >> Now what would be really fun would be to patch Qlink to work with the MMC-64 or Retro Replay with an RR-net card and go through the internet! Has anybody ever tried it? >> >> > >Not yet. Putting a whole TCP/IP stack in the machine might be a bit >much, but I'll not say it's impossible. Note though that we did go >through the Internet (albeit via a slave PC COM port). > >Jim > >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Jim, Thanks for the hint about the PC serial, I went on to Jeff Ledger's site http://www.petscii.com/ and learned lots more about your work. Looking forward to getting it going with my rig. Gary Fisher Vice President, Auction Tristone Capital Inc. Suite 1800, 335 - 8th Avenue SW Calgary, Alberta T2P 1C9 B: 403.303.8657 F: 403.294.9543 E:gfisher at tristonecapital.com This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 08:13:54 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:13:54 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 8/18/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a > Jan-Benedict> T2027, which is a XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) > > Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a common > board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into isn't easy > anymore... Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? I bought one from ebay (HSD 5 or 10?) > > paul > > From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Aug 19 08:41:17 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:41:17 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: I have a parallel port version of the Databook ThinCardDRIVE, model TMD-500. This is an external PCMCIA drive for reading SRAM cards. IIRC, it does not read flash cards. The manual is copyright 1991 and specifically mentions using SRAM cards in the HP 95LX and Poqet. It was a white-box unit that I got on eBay about 4 years ago. At the time, they were listed fairly often. I heard that they had been surplussed by NASA in Alabama. Databook was aquired by another company, which does not offer support for these units. I did email them and got instructions for using the unit with Windows, but it does not always work correctly in Windows 95. I also have an internal PCMCIA reader, but I have to dig it out to get its specs. Jim, email me off-list at r(underscore)a(underscore)feldman(at)hotmail.com. I don't need both units. Bob Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:04:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Another disk imaging project To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20050815174715.O62263 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >>>There are ISA adapters for PCMCIA. There are adapters to plug CF into > >>>PCMCIA dlots. > > There are, or at least WERE, 8 bit ISA PCMCIA adapters. On Mon, 15 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >Recall any? I'm really looking for something like this. I YOUSTA have an 8 bit ISA card with a PCMCIA slot on the back. There was also an ISA card with a cable to a PCMCIA slot in a holder that mounted in place of a 3.5" drive. ISTR the name as being something like "DataBook Thin Card Drive". The machine that it's in is not very conveniently accessible, but I might be able to get at it in a few weeks. If so, I'll dig it out, and confirm what it is. Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 08:50:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:50:14 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4305E396.2080709@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 8/18/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>>"Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: >> >> Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a >> Jan-Benedict> T2027, which is a XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) >> >>Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a common >>board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into isn't easy >>anymore... > > > Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? I bought one from ebay (HSD 5 or 10?) You might be talking about DSSI, not FDDI. FDDI is a type of LAN. Fiber Distributed Data Interface. Not really used for storage. Peace... Sridhar From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 19 08:54:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:54:29 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17157.58517.945410.992019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "9000" == 9000 VAX writes: 9000> On 8/18/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw >> writes: >> Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a T2027, which is a Jan-Benedict> XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) >> Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a >> common board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into >> isn't easy anymore... 9000> Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? I bought one from ebay 9000> (HSD 5 or 10?) FDDI to SCSI? Not 100% impossible but it seems unlikely. FDDI is a network interface, similar to 100BaseT (but much more complex for no benefit). You can run IP over it, of course. And then you could run iSCSI, if you don't mind the slow performance. But FDDI was obsolete long before iSCSI came out. So an FDDI to SCSI converter would have to be a proprietary hack. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 09:06:04 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:06:04 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <17157.58517.945410.992019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17157.58517.945410.992019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4305E74C.7050902@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a T2027, which is a > Jan-Benedict> XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) > >> Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a > >> common board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into > >> isn't easy anymore... > > 9000> Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? I bought one from ebay > 9000> (HSD 5 or 10?) > > FDDI to SCSI? Not 100% impossible but it seems unlikely. FDDI is a > network interface, similar to 100BaseT (but much more complex for no > benefit). No benefit? I get much better transfer rates through regular FDDI than I do through *switched* 100Mbps ethernet. I have a DEC GIGAswitch, and let me tell you that switched FDDI is *extremely* fast. That's not even talking about fault-tolerance. > You can run IP over it, of course. And then you could run iSCSI, if > you don't mind the slow performance. But FDDI was obsolete long > before iSCSI came out. So an FDDI to SCSI converter would have to be a > proprietary hack. Obselete? It's still very much used in places where fault tolerance is important. Peace... Sridhar From eric at rothfus.com Fri Aug 19 09:17:58 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:17:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> (message from Tom Jennings on Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:33:27 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1124460886@rothfus.com> > > ... > # From cbosg!teklabs!davem Wed Sep 16 21:11:41 1981 > ... > I just love seeing the old UUCP addresses. Eric From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 09:23:02 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:23:02 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4305EB46.1030301@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Jan-Benedict" == Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > > Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a > Jan-Benedict> T2027, which is a XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) > > Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a common > board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it into isn't easy > anymore... There's usually FDDI stuff all over ebay at any given moment. The Cisco WS-C1400 is pretty popular. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 09:24:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <1124460886@rothfus.com> References: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> <1124460886@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <4305EBAE.70603@gmail.com> Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >>... >># From cbosg!teklabs!davem Wed Sep 16 21:11:41 1981 >>... >> > > > I just love seeing the old UUCP addresses. > > Eric > Wasn't there a project recently to create a new UUCP internet using UUCP-over-IP, or somesuch? Peace... Sridhar From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 19 09:43:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:43:32 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17157.58517.945410.992019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4305E74C.7050902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17157.61460.823429.242630@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Paul Koning wrote: Jan-Benedict> ...One board (in the XMI cage) was a T2027, which is a Jan-Benedict> XMI-to-FDDI board. Nice :) >> >> Ha, I had forgotten that ever shipped. I suspect that's not a >> >> common board at all. Of course, finding anything to plug it >> into >> isn't easy anymore... >> 9000> Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? I bought one from ebay 9000> (HSD 5 or 10?) >> FDDI to SCSI? Not 100% impossible but it seems unlikely. FDDI is >> a network interface, similar to 100BaseT (but much more complex >> for no benefit). Sridhar> No benefit? I get much better transfer rates through Sridhar> regular FDDI than I do through *switched* 100Mbps ethernet. Sridhar> I have a DEC GIGAswitch, and let me tell you that switched Sridhar> FDDI is *extremely* fast. FDDI and 100BaseT are the same speed given equally competent implementations. Sridhar> That's not even talking about fault-tolerance. Ethernet and FDDI both offer fault tolerance. They do it in different ways, but they both can do it. Having spent several years in the FDDI ANSI committee, I know all the "why FDDI is better" FUD. It doesn't hold water. And it certainly doesn't justify the absolutely mindboggling complexity of FDDI compared to Ethernet. >> You can run IP over it, of course. And then you could run iSCSI, >> if you don't mind the slow performance. But FDDI was obsolete >> long before iSCSI came out. So an FDDI to SCSI converter would >> have to be a proprietary hack. Sridhar> Obselete? It's still very much used in places where fault Sridhar> tolerance is important. You're thinking about the U.S. Navy? I heard from them a few years ago when they realized that FDDI was dead, dead, dead, and they had to look for alternatives, because new FDDI hardware could no longer be obtained anywhere. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 10:17:09 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:17:09 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <17157.61460.823429.242630@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <17156.64562.93000.208514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17157.58517.945410.992019@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4305E74C.7050902@gmail.com> <17157.61460.823429.242630@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4305F7F5.7040700@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > FDDI and 100BaseT are the same speed given equally competent > implementations. With 100BaseT using an MTU of 1500, and FDDI using an MTU of 4478? I don't believe there's a standard for jumbo frames on 100Base-T. > Sridhar> That's not even talking about fault-tolerance. > > Ethernet and FDDI both offer fault tolerance. They do it in different > ways, but they both can do it. > > Having spent several years in the FDDI ANSI committee, I know all the > "why FDDI is better" FUD. It doesn't hold water. And it certainly > doesn't justify the absolutely mindboggling complexity of FDDI > compared to Ethernet. Take a bunch of SAS CDDI cards, plug Cat 5 into them, plug other end into concentrator. Voila. Done. Where's Need to run it a couple miles down the road? No problem. Not everything has to be backbone dual counter-rotating rings with trees. That, and now that the hardware is out of fashion, it's a lot cheaper. I have some GigE and some FDDI running over fiber between buildings here at work, and the GigE's redundant failover capacity often takes special hardware ($$), and often doesn't work as well. > >> You can run IP over it, of course. And then you could run iSCSI, > >> if you don't mind the slow performance. But FDDI was obsolete > >> long before iSCSI came out. So an FDDI to SCSI converter would > >> have to be a proprietary hack. > > Sridhar> Obselete? It's still very much used in places where fault > Sridhar> tolerance is important. > > You're thinking about the U.S. Navy? I heard from them a few years > ago when they realized that FDDI was dead, dead, dead, and they had to > look for alternatives, because new FDDI hardware could no longer be > obtained anywhere. It's all over IBM's internal network NOC's. I seem to remember one of the larger ISP's fairly near here still using it in their NAP. I could probably find out who, if necessary. That, and this is classiccmp. Old != obselete. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 19 10:23:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (doc at mdrconsult.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:23:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Loose in San Jose Message-ID: <21472.66.167.125.13.1124465036.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> And I'm coming to kick Sellam's butt! No, seriously, I am in San Jose CA, with an unexpected day-and-a-half off work. I'm looking for suggestions for classic computer sightseeing and/or shopping. Obviously, Weird Stuff is high on the list. Sellam, I'll try to contact you off-list, to see if you want to meet this afternoon or tomorrow. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 19 11:36:07 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:36:07 -0600 Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> References: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <43060A77.70803@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > aka: nostalgia right under our noses > > This is one of those admissions like enjoying listening to Barry > Manilow or something... > > So I'm making a computer for my car (freeBSD on a mini-ITX box) > and I'm hacking a "terminal" in an old AM radio chassis (a PIC, > two rotary encoders (VOLUME and TUNE), two momentary switches on > the shafts and a 4x20 LCD) to run a Perl script that drives > mpg321. > MPG31 YUCK! Can you get Barry Manilow any more even??? So don't forget a nice TUBE/VALVE amp for your car! http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1965/caramp.html From tomj at wps.com Fri Aug 19 11:52:46 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <43060A77.70803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> <43060A77.70803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050819094751.G733@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, woodelf wrote: > MPG31 YUCK! Eh, feed it two pipes it plays well enough, and it's free. use IPC::Open3; $pid= open3 ($W, $R, "", $mpg321, "-R", "dummyarg"); > Can you get Barry Manilow any more even??? For the record, I think that crap gives you ear cancer. I was merely comparing depravities :-) > So don't forget a nice TUBE/VALVE amp for your car! > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1965/caramp.html Wow! But that won't last long -- the bases will stay put whilst them envelopes head yonder! It's time for loctals, hold-downs, laced harnesses... ! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 19 12:01:03 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:01:03 +0100 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c5a4df$976b96c0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Aren't there some FDDI-SCSI converters? >I bought one from ebay (HSD 5 or 10?) HSDs do SCSI-DSSI not FDDI! Antonio -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 18/08/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 12:15:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <43052FB0.nailN901CANDW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > But I've never ever heard of a TK30. > > It's not in the Edited Option/Module lists I have, and they list some > pretty obscure CSS stuff (e.g. RX03, RQDX4). > > If Sellam could provide a description (e.g. "QIC" would mean some TK25 > variant most likely, "square cartridges" would mean really a TZ30, etc.) > it would help. Ok, I guess it's the same as the TZ30, according to this web page: http://www.varx.com/mwp/TAPES/TK30.HTML So TK30/TZ30, doesn't matter to me. What I really need to know is what does the manual look like? I know I have one but I need to know what it looks like in order to jog my memory as to where it may be hiding in my warehouse :) Yes, I'm strange. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 12:37:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >>Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > >>assignation, and "=" > >>as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > > even though it's not my computer. > > Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh zealots by > reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file in the Trash to delete > it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, it... pops out of the machine. One > would assume putting a disk in the Trash would format/erase it. I'd assume it would suck it up through the back of the machine, incinerate it, and then send the ashes out the back exhaust vent. But maybe I just expect too much from my digital implements. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 12:39:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43055C8A.5090406@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > You know what I miss? Prodigy. I miss the high-resolution vector > graphics -- some truly amazing pictures went down the 1200 baud wire > amazingly quickly because the vector art obviously took up much less > space than bitmap art (even ASCII art!). In 1989, it was the web before > the web was even concieved (including advertising!!). Heck, it was AOL before AOL was AOL. > There was a Prodigy 'demo' disk floating around that simulated a Prodigy > session to try to get people to sign up. It didn't require the service > itself, or even a modem -- does anyone have this disk? I'm pretty sure I do, but standard caveats apply. In this case, it's either mixed in with a thousand other disks or it's in one of two boxes filled with just online services manuals and software. I'll try to check it out when I get a chance, and if I find it I'll send a copy to you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Aug 19 13:40:21 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno1983) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:40:21 +0200 Subject: [cctalk] Anyone care to guess what this is? Is it a computer even? Message-ID: Hello everybody! Jaywest wrote: > I mentioned this on the list a long time ago - found it at a salvage place. > I wasn't in any rush to get pictures, but last time I was there they said > the place was going to be declared off-limits for humans. So I got a few > pictures of this olive drab "computer". Anyone have any clue what this thing > is? Just curious!? If anyone wants it I could put them in touch with the > salvage place owner. > > Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit Haven't even looked at the pictures yet (I'm doing mail offline when all I got is a modem line), but: *Somebody Please Save This!* (I can't, as it's across the pond and shipping would be a killer if it can't be included into a bigger load that goes to Europe anyway!) Such control equipment and the like are one of the places where robotics and the modern "embedded system" concept started off! I own a Siemens Sinumerik unit (actually, a rebadged Fujitsu Fanuc mate TG) from the early 1970s. It's nonfunctional now because the monitor box (which contains the character and vector generator board for the graphics too - abso-f***ing-lutely proprietary) is missing. I had that here once, but it was trashed before I came to realize I wanted to save the whole thing. I also have a lead on a Sinumerik 810 which is supposed to become available sometime soon. I got some demo, lessons and simulation practice on (C)NC programming two years ago as a part of the practical introduction in industry for EE students. Great fun to watch a huge powerful tooling machine execute commands that one enters on a computer, serial terminal or via paper tape! Yours sincerely, Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen --- www.iser.uni-erlangen.de From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 14:08:09 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:08:09 -0400 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43062E19.9050907@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh zealots by > > reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file in the Trash to delete > > it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, it... pops out of the machine. One > > would assume putting a disk in the Trash would format/erase it. > > > I'd assume it would suck it up through the back of the machine, incinerate > it, and then send the ashes out the back exhaust vent. > > But maybe I just expect too much from my digital implements. That could probably be arranged. 8-> Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Fri Aug 19 14:10:21 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:10:21 -0600 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <4304FAF0.80107@mdrconsult.com> References: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> <4304FAF0.80107@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43062E9D.3000404@srv.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>> Anyone have a TK30 manual? >> >> >> >> Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? > > > How to make the damn thing quit screeching whenever it's attached to > a bus and powered on? > > Screaming TZ30's usually mean a hardware problem. Is the plastic leader still attached correctly? This is one of the most common problems with these type of drives. This leader is permanetly attached to the internal take-up reel, threaded past the heads, and attached so that it can hook onto the loop in the TK50 cartridge. When they get loose, You can usually hear them flapping the end of the hook against the casing in an, often successful, attempt at destroying the hook on the end of the leader. > Doc > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 19 14:15:50 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:15:50 +0100 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5a4f2$6c96a4e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Ok, I guess it's the same as the TZ30, according to this web page: >http://www.varx.com/mwp/TAPES/TK30.HTML >So TK30/TZ30, doesn't matter to me. Humbug. How can you sit there and complain when someone incorrectly cites XYZ as the first Foobar and then quote some random page as evidence that a mythical TK30 ever existed? The TK50 was the first DEC drive of the series (the TK25 was QIC-like IIRC so I do not count that). Then along came SCSI-ish variant followed by a real SCSI variant and a higher capacity version (the TK70). Somewhere along the line a more compact form of the same drive came out - that was the TZ30. It was a TK50 in all the essentials but it did real SCSI. Someone somewhere goofed when putting together the web page. Anyway, here's a picture: http://www.compsy.de/index1.htm?gebr-vax/geb-scsi.htm~text And here is an online book that shows you the buttons (it's part of a DEC 4000 manual but it should be good enough). http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$axpdocdec971/sysman/d3qlaaa1.bkb http://www.sysworks.com.au/disk$axpdocdec971/sysman/d3qlaaa1.p86.bkb#514 Failing that, Manx (http://vt100.net/manx) should be able to scare up a TK50 manual - from what I remember the buttons are pretty much the same. If you really do want a paper manual, then it will be A5-ish in size and with either a grey or white cover. It might say TK50 on the front :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 19/08/2005 From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 19 14:57:17 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:57:17 -0700 Subject: Need TK30 manual In-Reply-To: <43062E9D.3000404@srv.net> References: <200508182111.j7ILBUot005031@onyx.spiritone.com> <4304FAF0.80107@mdrconsult.com> <43062E9D.3000404@srv.net> Message-ID: <4306399D.8090502@mdrconsult.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>>> Anyone have a TK30 manual? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Don't you mean a TZ30 manual? What do you need to know? >> >> >> >> How to make the damn thing quit screeching whenever it's attached to >> a bus and powered on? >> >> > Screaming TZ30's usually mean a hardware problem. > Is the plastic leader still attached correctly? > This is one of the most common problems with these > type of drives. Thanks for the suggestion, but I've BTDT with the leader on both TK50 and TZ30. The leader is attached on both the TZ30s that are screaming. In fact, both drives will successfully load, unload, and allow insertion/ejection of a cartridge, as long as they aren't plugged in to a SCSI bus. I've tried them on a PDP-11, a MV3100-90, and a PeeCee with an old Tekram SCSI adapter. And yes, I'm attaching the ribbon cable correctly - I have a third TZ30 that works perfectly on the same systems. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 15:29:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <20050818220601.M733@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > aka: nostalgia right under our noses > > This is one of those admissions like enjoying listening to Barry > Manilow or something... I'll never admit to that (even if it is true). > So I'm making a computer for my car (freeBSD on a mini-ITX box) > and I'm hacking a "terminal" in an old AM radio chassis (a PIC, > two rotary encoders (VOLUME and TUNE), two momentary switches on > the shafts and a 4x20 LCD) to run a Perl script that drives > mpg321. Sweet! Sounds like a good project for Make magazine. > The comments in termcap are hilarious. There's a lot of obsolete > knowledge and funny comments in there, from when the unix world > was a lot smaller. I read through it before and it is indeed entertaining, and yes, everything is preserved in Linux. It's interesting to note that Unix is so backward compatible that it will still work with old hardware, thanks to anachronisms like the TERMCAP file. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 15:38:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loose in San Jose In-Reply-To: <21472.66.167.125.13.1124465036.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 doc at mdrconsult.com wrote: > And I'm coming to kick Sellam's butt! > > No, seriously, I am in San Jose CA, with an unexpected day-and-a-half > off work. I'm looking for suggestions for classic computer sightseeing > and/or shopping. Obviously, Weird Stuff is high on the list. > > Sellam, I'll try to contact you off-list, to see if you want to meet this > afternoon or tomorrow. Anyone who comes to the area is always welcome to come visit! (Whether to give/receive an ass-kicking or just to gawk at old computers :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 16:09:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <4305D65B.7030404@seefried.com> Message-ID: > == 6611 Correct! Thanks..... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 16:15:04 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <4305CE8C.30105@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't know what the model is called, but the genuine IBM card has > FRU#93F0377. I see them all the time. The SAS interface is a single > MCA card. The DAS interface is an MCA card with a MCA daughtercard > which takes (I believe) only power from the slot and communicates to the > main board via a ribbon cable. MIC connectors all around. The ones we used were different. They were single MCA cards with daughterboards, and the FDDI connections were STs. There was a kludgey cable just sticking out the back for the connection to the FDDI bypass switch. The HSSI cards were very similar, but the daughterboard was different, and obviously no STs or bypass controls. The very early 386 based ones were really odd, in that they were about three times as tall as the MCA standard called for. Why they did it this way - who knows? The RS-6000 mod 930s we had were in extra tall chassis to support the card. > I believe I have a MCA V.35 card or two. The ones I have are ARTIC960 > i960-based coprocessed serial interfaces that speak V.35. Those I have seen, but not too common. Hmmm...very interesting that the FDDI cards were apparently upgraded and released - I was told they were a dead end. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 16:17:14 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <43055A64.2070607@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > We're not talking some mom & pop ISP operation, either. This was in > a major backbone provider's NOC. Wow, that is pretty neat. ANS had to ditch them because the cards just could not handle really big routing tables anymore. We ditched the RS/6000s and converted to a mixed Bay/Cisco backbone - something that would cause a big headache later on. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 16:20:33 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <17157.61460.823429.242630@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Having spent several years in the FDDI ANSI committee, I know all the > "why FDDI is better" FUD. It doesn't hold water. And it certainly > doesn't justify the absolutely mindboggling complexity of FDDI > compared to Ethernet. For what it is worth, we (ANS) found FDDI to be really rather more bulletproof than Ethernet, even when we moved major POPs from live FDDI rings to FDDI stars. Smooth as silk, actually. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 19 16:47:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:47:08 +0100 Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > So I'm making a computer for my car (freeBSD on a mini-ITX box) > > and I'm hacking a "terminal" in an old AM radio chassis (a PIC, > > two rotary encoders (VOLUME and TUNE), two momentary switches on > > the shafts and a 4x20 LCD) to run a Perl script that drives > > mpg321. > > Sweet! Sounds like a good project for Make magazine. (sorry for attribution - I've lost Tom's earlier post) Out of interest, how are you doing the +12V supply rail? Or don't you need one in this particular situation? I never liked the idea of going the route of a power inverter (car battery to inverter to conventional switchmode back to DC voltages) because it's darn wasteful of both power and space. But given that battery voltage in a car ducks below 12V on occassion (not to mention being noisy as hell) I've always wondered how to do power regulation to drive a computer - I've never found a decent DC-DC circuit to do the job and provide enough start-up current to power a hard disk... The +5V supply's the easy bit! (OK, so sorry of OT-ness too!) cheers Jules ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 17:00:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > There was a Prodigy 'demo' disk floating around that simulated a Prodigy > > session to try to get people to sign up. It didn't require the service > > itself, or even a modem -- does anyone have this disk? > > I'm pretty sure I do, but standard caveats apply. In this case, it's > either mixed in with a thousand other disks or it's in one of two boxes > filled with just online services manuals and software. I'll try to check > it out when I get a chance, and if I find it I'll send a copy to you. Damn it. For years I have a box with this stuff in the same place and then I go looking for it and it's not there anymore. In the course of looking, I happen upon a disk that was a BIX (Byte Information Exchange) simulation disk that was interesting and put it to the side, but in the course of moving more boxes around it too disappeared. I seem to have a Bermuda Triangle of sorts in that particular area of the warehouse. Anyway, if I end up finding the Prodigy demo someday I'll be sure to mention it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Aug 19 17:31:46 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:31:46 +0100 Subject: Nerding out with termcap References: Message-ID: <017001c5a50d$c8aa77a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Jules Richardson" > > Out of interest, how are you doing the +12V supply rail? Or don't you need > one in this particular situation? > Jules, there are a number of comercially available supplies with a DC input, ranging from 12V up to 70V depending on the model. Jim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 18:07:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:07:51 -0500 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050819180751.6cb57107.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 06:00:54 -0400 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > Hang on a minute, does anyone *really* find the use of "=" as > > assignation, and "=" > > as equivalence, in *any way* confusing? > > No, but I have extreme difficulties that on some machines you > have to click "Start" to stop, and you have to click on "my computer" > even though it's not my computer. > > Tim. You click 'start' to start the shutdown sequence. Pressing a button to 'stop' the computer is the old way, on non-multitasking computers. It wrecks havoc on filesystems, data structures, etc. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 18:13:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:13:45 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> References: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050819181345.3a87fbe3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is > > >going well. At present, the following is working: > > > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the > > early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then > > (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). > > Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. > There was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear > in some Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo > deal, though. > Radio Shack pushed their own GUI, called Deskmate, not Geos. The first (and only) version of Quicken I've ever owned was a Tandy Deskmate version. Came with a runtime version of Deskmate, the way Windows apps did before Windows 3.0. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 18:15:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:15:52 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <002201c5a407$5aab0190$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <4304925F.4090500@atarimuseum.com> <002201c5a407$5aab0190$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20050819181552.2e777b7f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:13:14 -0400 "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Modem racks are now cheap...$100 on eBay for a 16-modem bank: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Telecom-Octocom-AC1816B-Rack-Modem-w-16-8840R-AP2825R_W0 > QQitemZ5799675431QQcategoryZ99267QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems modules in it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally obsolete. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 19 18:49:18 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <20050819181345.3a87fbe3.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Aug 19, 5 06:13:45 pm" Message-ID: <200508192349.QAA15218@floodgap.com> > > > Didn't Radio Shack resell the QLink service for the IBM PC in the > > > early 90's? ISTR, that was one of the services I was on back then > > > (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, and I think QLink). > > > > Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. > > There was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear > > in some Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo > > deal, though. > > Radio Shack pushed their own GUI, called Deskmate, not Geos. The first > (and only) version of Quicken I've ever owned was a Tandy Deskmate > version. Came with a runtime version of Deskmate, the way Windows apps > did before Windows 3.0. No, but I do remember using the GEOS-based AOL in Rat Shock stores before; it was definitely there. This was probably post-DeskMate, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Faith is to be sure of what you hope for. -- The Kry, "Take My Hand" ------- From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Aug 19 18:48:36 2005 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:48:36 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F260C14@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <5DE7A79C-BEFD-4A9D-8F9B-DEFD28FA48DE@kerberos.davies.net.au><014201c5a4a7$37437a70$6401a8c0@Lapdog> <4305CFFF.5010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01a301c5a518$84cfb490$6401a8c0@Lapdog> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Vax 6320 on Ebay > Robert Schaefer wrote: >> >> I've done it, and know of at least two others. AFAIK all 6000 machines >> can run on single-phase, but I've only experienced a U.S. machine. There >> are a few websites describing the process, and I'd be happy to answer >> what questions I can. > > I've done it too. I hooked the two live legs of a 220V dryer line to the > three live legs (one to one, one to two) on the 3-phase connector, plus > neutral to neutral and ground to ground. Worked fine. That's basically it for a U.S. conversion, a E.U. conversion ought to be about the same. The details can change WRT how the internal power distribution module is wired in (provides 120V power to internal RA drives, etc.) and how easily it's unconverted. IIRC I replaced the cord end with a NEMA L14-30P and retapped the power distribution to more evenly divide up the load between the two legs. > > Peace... Sridhar > Good to hear from you again! Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 19 19:23:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:23:15 -0600 Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <20050819180751.6cb57107.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <126E3E7B-0657-42AF-A8D9-EE45AAEDD07B@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.2.1.2.2.20050815113029.052f9840@mail> <20050815182558.A64577@shell.lmi.net> <20050817114919.G1763@fiche.wps.com> <20050817134117.E17858@shell.lmi.net> <4304316D.7010005@gjcp.net> <43045C56.nailE2J11JWZ8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20050819180751.6cb57107.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <430677F3.2070005@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: > Pressing a button to 'stop' the computer is the old way, on > non-multitasking computers. It wrecks havoc on filesystems, data > structures, etc. That reminds me to set the 'power' button on my new PC to do just that. When I want the computer OFF, I want it OFF! (I hate OS crashes that go ZERO tasking kepping the off button from working. ) Ben alias woodelf. I tend to use dual boot on this old PC and CTL-ALT-DEL reboots free-BSD. Then while in the default BIOS screen I hit the OFF switch. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 19 18:56:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:56:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assignment V equality In-Reply-To: <43055B3C.4010205@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Aug 18, 5 11:08:28 pm Message-ID: > Well, they cribbed from the best. I like to annoy Macintosh zealots by > reminding them that, for over a decade, you put a file in the Trash to delete > it, but when you put a disk in the Trash, it... pops out of the machine. One > would assume putting a disk in the Trash would format/erase it. That was exactlu my thought when I first used a Mac. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 19:57:24 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <20050819181552.2e777b7f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems modules in > it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally > obsolete. What model of modems? Quads (four per card)? William Donzelli ex integrat at usr.com aw288 at osfn.org From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 19 20:11:13 2005 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:11:13 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B4DDC58-2E90-41C5-B597-DFC24523A81A@typewritten.org> On Aug 19, 2005, at 5:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems >> modules in >> it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally >> obsolete. >> > > What model of modems? Quads (four per card)? I have a quantity of USR TotalAccess cards available for REAL CHEAP + Shipping if anybody is interested. Reply off-list. * USRobotics TotalAccess Dual PRI board * USRobotics TotalAccess Dual PRI NAC board * USRobotics TotalAccess Quad v.34 modem board (qty. 3) ok bear From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 19 20:19:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loose in San Jose In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050819181708.P81400@shell.lmi.net> > > And I'm coming to kick Sellam's butt! > > Sellam, I'll try to contact you off-list, to see if you want to meet this > > afternoon or tomorrow. > Anyone who comes to the area is always welcome to come visit! > (Whether to give/receive an ass-kicking or just to gawk at old computers > :) Before you kick Sellam's butt, offer him "all that you can carry" of any computer related stuff. That will give you an opportunity to find out what you're up against. If I ever want to move a 360 to a 4th floor walk-up, I want Sellam helping. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 20:26:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:26:10 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: <20050819181552.2e777b7f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050819202610.781606f6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:57:24 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems modules > > in it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally > > obsolete. > > What model of modems? Quads (four per card)? > Duals, apparently. Each card is labeled 'Dual V.32terbo Analog Modem.' Two mezzanine cards on each 'big' card. Looks like it's 1993 vintage. It does need a new home. > William Donzelli > ex integrat at usr.com > aw288 at osfn.org > From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Aug 19 20:30:50 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <20050819202610.781606f6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Duals, apparently. Each card is labeled 'Dual V.32terbo Analog Modem.' > Two mezzanine cards on each 'big' card. Looks like it's 1993 vintage. EEeeewwwww... > It does need a new home. Not here. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 19 20:33:49 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:33:49 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: <20050819181552.2e777b7f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050819203349.707e1250.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:57:24 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems modules > > in it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally > > obsolete. > > What model of modems? Quads (four per card)? > Duals, apparently. Each card is labeled 'Dual V.32terbo Analog Modem.' Two mezzanine cards on each 'big' card. Looks like it's 1995 vintage. It does need a new home. > William Donzelli > ex integrat at usr.com > aw288 at osfn.org > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 19 21:29:46 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:29:46 -0700 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4306959A.2050704@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> We're not talking some mom & pop ISP operation, either. This was in >>a major backbone provider's NOC. > > > Wow, that is pretty neat. ANS had to ditch them because the cards just > could not handle really big routing tables anymore. These systems had been managing some dedicated circuits and I think catching and collating transaction and error data from that facility and a couple of other NOCs for a long long time. > We ditched the RS/6000s and converted to a mixed Bay/Cisco backbone - > something that would cause a big headache later on. Aye. That I can believe. Doc From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Aug 20 01:27:08 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:27:08 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-08-18 22:54:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Fri, 2005-06-24 18:50:06 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-06-23 23:09:51 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > VAX 6000-320 > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5211981884 > There we are. The machine arrived at a friend's house today. He'll host > the machine for me, since I've got, um, erm, some problems finding a > good place in my basement. Last night (09:00 to 04:00) we re-assembled all the parts, checked cabling again, took off all boards and gave it a first run (without any load). The fans went on, power distribution module's LEDs, too. As the next step, I re-inserted one of the CPU modules and one memory module. Tadaa! Nothing explodes, just seems to work. We'd watch the LED showdown while the CPU was running it's self tests. Insert 2nd CPU module and the other two memory boards, power on, nada. Both CPUs toggle between error 1 and error 6. After checking some combinations, one of the -3- 32MB modules seems to be broken. (Maybe I killed it? :-( ) FDDI card also came up in the next step. Then we inserted the XMI-BI modules (as well as both BI adaptors on the BI side) and two additional modules. Works. Then all the rest (except the faulty memory module). Doesn't work. One of the XMI-BI adaptors (XMI side) didn't come up. After cleaning contacts once more and some remove/insert cycles, it's up again. Also, all cards of the BI side are properly reported. Unfortunately, I haven't logged the console session, but here's from pure memory what this machine consists of: - 2x KA62 CPUs - 1x FDDI adaptor (for XMI bus) - 2x working 32MB memory, one 32MB module is faulty - 2x XMI-BI adaptor pairs - 2x DEBNI - 2x CI - 1x DMW32 (?) --> connects to a printer port, a number of async ports and one sync port - 1x TK70 controller - 1x TOYsomething (cannot correctly remember it's name, nor if/where backplane cables were wired to or what it could be used for) - 1x USV battery pack (seems non-working at the moment, at least one fuse is broken) It's somewhat sad that one of the memory modules is faulty, but overall, after some cleaning, the machine is in quite good shape. It came with a piece of paper with a printed gravestone: 1989-2003. It's really a nice beast. With as much disassembly as possible, we were able to get it down into the basement with four people. But let me tell you: we were quite sweaty when we had out final touchdown... Some words to the faulty memory module. I would have expected that, as long as a working module is there, one faulty module should just result in an error message in the POST stage. But unfortunately, the machine really hung during the extended self-test phase. Within 15min, it didn't manage to finish and continue. During this time, either the bottom-mose LED (1) or the two above (2+4=6) were lid. Does this ring any bells? Maybe the module isn't all that bad, but only some cold solder marks? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 19 18:21:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC VMS 5.0, VAX FORTRAN, VAX LAB, VAX GKS docs available for shipping Message-ID: See below. This stuff is in Ohio. Please reply directly to original sender. Reply-to: Stephen.Gunderson at wpafb.af.mil ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:55:14 -0400 From: Gunderson Stephen L Contr AFRL/MLBT To: 'Vintage Computer Festival' Subject: RE: donating materials We have available for donation the following: Complete documentation set for VMS 5.0, VAX FORTRAN documentation, VAX LAB documentation and VAX GKS documentation. We also have software for all the previous systems BUT no code keys and we also have some TK50 tapes. Could you or anyone else you know of use all or some of these materials for the price of shipping only (probably about 50 pounds for all). We have already contacted the Computer History Museum and are also contacting the American Computer Museum and the San Diego Computer Museum. Thanks. Steve Gunderson Research Engineer Contractor (UDRI) AFRL/MLBT Ph: (937) 255-5180 Fax: (937) 255-2176 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 20 03:41:19 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:41:19 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050820104119.326e2bd2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:27:08 +0200 Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > but here's from pure memory what this machine consists of: I am green with envy! ;-) Do you have disks? I have a SCSI-HSC-to-CI controler and drive canisters (all 19", may fit into the VAX 6000 main cabinet) waiting for a good home that can make use of it. This way you can use "normal" SCSI disks on your VAX. I can also throw in a DEC DEFPA PCI FDDI card, that is supported by Linux and *BSD... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Aug 20 05:10:24 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:10:24 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050820104119.326e2bd2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050820104119.326e2bd2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20050820101024.GB13517@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-08-20 10:41:19 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:27:08 +0200 > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > but here's from pure memory what this machine consists of: > I am green with envy! ;-) /me is somewhat proud :) > Do you have disks? Nope. ...and I'm not all that sure what I'll do right now with the box. > I have a SCSI-HSC-to-CI controler and drive canisters (all 19", may fit > into the VAX 6000 main cabinet) waiting for a good home that can make > use of it. This way you can use "normal" SCSI disks on your VAX. That's a nice offer, thanks. Maybe I'll talk you into this. > I can also throw in a DEC DEFPA PCI FDDI card, that is supported by > Linux and *BSD... All the fun will start somewhen in the next week. Then, Michael and me will have some relais in place to allow remote power control. My first action will probably be to get a Linux kernel running on it. (I did start some coding last night (couldn't resist :-) but it's not yet working. Seems the stack pointer isn't correctly set, so it goes to paradise as soon as the first pushl is done...) Then I'll need to get the DEBNIs under control to allow NFS root. I haven't yet played a lot with NetBSD (only installed it on a 4000/90 for a test), but I think I'll load it on some more machines and study it (esp. the VAX part). That'll probably help getting SMP support :) As far as I know, this is the very first SMP machine available to us few Linux developers. (Side note: the location where the machine is hosted (the infamous, non-existing Bielefeld in NRW, Germany) will allow for some developer's meetings, so once we cleaned up the basement a bit, we can have hacking sessions. If anybody knows some cheap location that's offering some more space in NRW, please speak up. Some EUR are probably available to rent a larger room or small flat for http://lug-owl.de/ .) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From fzrfast at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 21 03:53:24 2005 From: fzrfast at bellsouth.net (fzrfast) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:53:24 -0400 Subject: Time Arts Lumena version 4.0 Message-ID: <43084104.3060106@bellsouth.net> Hello: Does anyone have a working copy of TimeArts Lumena version 4.0 for the Atvista board from 1996? Jim Cox From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 20 10:06:54 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:06:54 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <2B4DDC58-2E90-41C5-B597-DFC24523A81A@typewritten.org> References: <2B4DDC58-2E90-41C5-B597-DFC24523A81A@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4307470E.6040209@deltasoft.com> r.stricklin wrote: > > On Aug 19, 2005, at 5:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I have one, a USR 19" rackmount box, with a bunch of modems modules in >>> it. I've been meaning to peddle it on eBay before it's totally >>> obsolete. >>> >> >> What model of modems? Quads (four per card)? > > > I have a quantity of USR TotalAccess cards available for REAL CHEAP + > Shipping if anybody is interested. Reply off-list. > > * USRobotics TotalAccess Dual PRI board > * USRobotics TotalAccess Dual PRI NAC board > * USRobotics TotalAccess Quad v.34 modem board (qty. 3) Wow. I haven't seen any of those since I was sysadmin at wa.net in 1996. Those were some kick-ass setups. Took US West (now Qwest) _forever_ to get the damn PRI installed correctly. g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 20 14:36:53 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:36:53 +0100 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <92e3899d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <43043235.1000404 at jbrain.com> Jim Brain wrote: > http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ OK, now that takes coolness to a whole new level. How did you find out about the protocol - reverse engineer the Qlink client? I'd love to have a PC running some form of RS232->TCP/IP bridge, then have the TCP side connect to a Qlink server over the Internet. Would be fun to play with, especially if Qlink could be patched into #classiccmp on freenode. Congratulations Jim, and good luck sorting out the rest of the protocol! Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc ... Don't worry, I'm fluent in weirdo... From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 20 16:12:28 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:12:28 +0100 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050818153132.05436c68@mail> References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com> <200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050818153132.05436c68@mail> Message-ID: In message <6.2.1.2.2.20050818153132.05436c68 at mail> John Foust wrote: > McDonald's Happy Meal toys and Nintendo gear also use them. Yecch. Tri-wing bits. I hate the blasted things - the matching screwdrivers (especially for Nintendo kit) seem to be manufactured from 99.999% pure scientific-grade unobtainium (even though tool steel would work just as well :P ). Quickest way to remove them? A drill. Least destructive way to remove them? The proper screwdriver. What to use if you don't have the proper screwdriver or a drill? A flat-blade screwdriver. Sort-of works, even better if you've got some sandpaper (!) or a grinder handy to take a bit of metal off the bit until it fits. I've got about a dozen cheap screwdrivers with Polymorph plastic on one end and a severely Dremel'd bit :) Why do I take Nintendo gear apart? To swap MaskROMs for FLASH chips. Much fun to create one's own game for a Gameboy. Even more fun if you design a cart from scratch that actually does something useful (read: logic analyser, oscilloscope, ...) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc ... "Bother", said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 20 16:43:21 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:43:21 +0100 Subject: Microvax etc ebay UK Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050820224057.050f17e0@albert> eBay 5231882901 - microvaxes, currently at ?1.00 ! The comment that worries me: "also have some other digital / dec stuff in a pile looking for a home or empty skip !" - anybody in Aberdeen fancy helping this guy? From ken at seefried.com Sat Aug 20 16:51:15 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:51:15 -0400 Subject: New POWER toys In-Reply-To: <200508200628.j7K6RoKV045157@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508200628.j7K6RoKV045157@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4307A5D3.6060807@seefried.com> From: William Donzelli >>> == 6611 > > > > Correct! Thanks..... I'll never forget in the early 1990s, doing my first really big network design (for an at-the-time top 4 cellular phone company, now part of a much bigger cellular phone company). They wanted to move to a routed, IP network from a bridged (!!) SNA+Netbios network. This included a phased move from Token Ring to Ethernet on the LAN side. I should note that this was also one of the larger AS/400 shops around. I created the RFPs, the evaluation criteria, etc., and based on initial research picked a short list of candidate router companies. Cisco, Wellfleet, GDC, 2-3 others I now forget, and IBM with the 6611. I contacted each of the corporate sales reps to explain what I was going to send them and what I expected back. Everyone expressed gratitude that they were allowed to participate, what could they do to help, did I like to play golf, yadda yadda. Except the IBM rep. Paraphrased: ME: Hi...I'm doing the architecture for the new network. I'm going to send you a bunch of requirements, and I'm going to need the following things in return. IBM Sales Drone: ...Why? ME: Ummm....because we will be selecting a vendor for the routing elements based on this evaluation. ISD: ...No your not. You're going to buy the new 6611. You're an IBM customer. <- direct quote ME: ...Really? ISD: Yes, you are. I don't understand why we are even having this conversation. <- also a quote ME: Thanks. I sent the doco over, they didn't respond, then raised hell at the C-level that they hadn't been given the chance to participate when we picked another vendor. My mangement told them to pound sand, and my CIO got mad enoungh to say things that made an IBM VP blush. Good times....good times... Ken From brain at jbrain.com Sat Aug 20 17:37:35 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:37:35 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <92e3899d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43043235.1000404@jbrain.com> <92e3899d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <4307B0AF.6090602@jbrain.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >In message <43043235.1000404 at jbrain.com> > Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/qlink/ >> >> > >OK, now that takes coolness to a whole new level. How did you find out about >the protocol - reverse engineer the Qlink client? > > short answer: yes long answer: The disk was reverse engineered by Keith Henricksen in 2001, by using the C64 emulator VICE and it's ability to pipe user port RS232 to STDIO of any application. He wrote a stub app to give to VICE that converted STDIO into TCP traffic, and then write a TCP/IP server. Through a combination of looking at what the client initially sends and how it was constructed, Keith determined the packet format. Via stepping through the VICE monitor, he determined the CRC checksum and found what response the initial packet needed. He then modified his C application to send said response. As we went along this way, he documented it sparsely in a text file. After a while, Keith set the work aside. He picked it up again and wrote a new server in C++, but shelved it while it was less functional than his C effort. In 2004, I disassembled the code via VICE and determined the CRC and packet format, but could not get much farther because WinVICE doesn't have the same functionality as UNIX VICE does, and Keith seems better able to reverse engineer the QLink code. Thus, I shelved my effort in late 2004. In June 2005, Keith found the forum we use to discuss the idea, and shared some information. After that, he offered up his 2 server attempts, from which I grabbed his text documentation. I then restarted my implementation, which went very quickly. Along the way, I found some new keywords, and determined how to do some stuff not in Keith's code. Some of the development required seeing the service as it was (for example, the server sends the first and second email lines to the client, but we had no idea of the format), so I went looking for screen shots. I found a few at http://www.dsgames.net/qlink/, Keith Elkin's site. After using the information found there, I emailed Keith about the project, and asked if there were any more shots. He replied that he had hours of videotape of the sessions, which he would convert to video files. I just received those, and they may hold the keys to how the Auditorium worked. This past Tuesday, we were finally able to do a cross country test of the server code, after which the tester, Jeff Ledger posted about it in several places. Those posts brought more emails, some from Raymond Day with old saved QLink messages. As the messages were from the end, when people were posting what file areas they had downloaded, the postings provide deiscriptions of the file base heirarchy. I also trolled USENET and Google to find other sites emailing them the project progress. Keith Elkin is also a great resource, as he was remote staff for quite a while of QLink's existence, so he knows more of the system minutuae. The video feeds he provided include Habitat and Club Caribe sessions, which will make re-introducing those easier. I'd love to have a PC running some form of RS232->TCP/IP bridge, then have >the TCP side connect to a Qlink server over the Internet. Would be fun to >play with, especially if Qlink could be patched into #classiccmp on freenode. > > Well, I can help you with getting rs232 to TCP/IP (tcpser and tcpser4j both work, as might other bridges), but I don't know how to merge QLink chat and IRC into one. Most of it I have mapped out, but QLink only allows 23 users per room. I have no idea how to guard against an IRC room getting more than 23 users in it. >Congratulations Jim, and good luck sorting out the rest of the protocol! > > Thanks. I hope to have enough of the system operational by the 20th Anniversay of QLink, Nov 1, 2005. I gotta hurry, tho. JIm >Later. > > -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 20 17:29:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:29:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 20, 5 10:12:28 pm Message-ID: > Why do I take Nintendo gear apart? To swap MaskROMs for FLASH chips. Much fun > to create one's own game for a Gameboy. Even more fun if you design a cart > from scratch that actually does something useful (read: logic analyser, > oscilloscope, ...) I assusme you've seen the Elektor GBDSO project? (Game Boy Digital Sampling Oscilloscope). Looked interesting, but too proprietary for my taste (no sources for the firmware are available, for example). Has somebody done a logic analyser for the Gameboy? Or is this just an idea of yours? -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 16 12:44:15 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:44:15 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 24, Issue 27 Message-ID: <01C5A268.BBEE9200@H84.C223.tor.velocet.net> --------------------Original Message: From: "phillipmilks at netzero.com" Subject: Re: Heath ET-3400 Trainer Simulator SW Sometime back, a company offered simulaton SW for the ET-3400 at this site : http://www.pilgrimworks.com/trainer.htm. It has been discontinued. I would like to find a copy of the program and docs. If anyone has a copy that they would part with or copy, please respond. TIA ---------------------Reply: Can't help with the simulator, but if anyone wants a manual for the ET-3400 (with the poster-size schematic) for $5 &S, write me off-line. mike From ken at onticdata.com Tue Aug 16 12:48:08 2005 From: ken at onticdata.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:48:08 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus Boards Available Message-ID: <430226D8.5080800@onticdata.com> Pat: If any of that multibus equipment includes any iSBX daughtcards, I'd sure be interested in those. Best regards, Ken From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Tue Aug 16 17:37:38 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:37:38 -0500 Subject: Manual collection on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508162247.j7GMlQZh094704@keith.ezwind.net> Search for item # 5231172263 Gil From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Aug 16 18:26:24 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:26:24 -0400 Subject: Metier Artemis 4200? References: <3.0.6.16.20050815162615.0f677b3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43027620.A06C35A2@mindspring.com> Joe, IIRC, there's a buttload of docs at the warehouse for that system. As a matter of fact, the docs probably outweigh the machine :-) If the current owner can be persuaded, I'd like to haul one of those systems home on my next trip down (possibly around thanksgiving). see ya, SteveRob "Joe R." wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a HP 1000 (E Series IIRC) that's marked as a Metier Artemis > system but I don't remember if it has a model number or not. I got it from > of of the Charlie Bell auctions a couple of years ago. Charlie worked at > Kennedy space Center for MANY years and had a huge collection of space > artifacts including things like John Glenn's original space suit and TWO > Atlas rockets! I've left this HP 1000 intact and haven't taken it apart to > see what's in it but I think I do have some manuals for it's software. IIRC > it was used as an accounting system, project management or some such. > There's no mention of RTE or any other HP Operating System so it must have > used custom software. > > I haven't taken this one apart to examine it but IIRC it looks pretty > standard except for the name on it. > > Joe > > At 04:06 PM 8/14/05 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Anyone know anything about these critters? From what I've gleaned from > >the web the hardware's just rebadged HP kit, and the software's all > >related to project management (personal yawn!). > > > >Just wondered if there was anything oddball about the hardware that > >makes it particularly worth saving... > > > >cheers > > > >Jules > > > > From sdc695 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 17 16:37:25 2005 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit Banger(s) we all have known. Message-ID: <20050817213725.44956.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > The earliest desktop comuter I know of with a bit-banged serial port is > the HP9830. <<>> > I have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a > minicomputer. Anyone know of one? Well (since you asked) the original serial interface for the HP 2116 computer (around 1966 or so) was a serial bit-banging interface. You needed to assemble the byte from the ASR-33 (or 35, take your pick) teletype a bit at a time. They later had the bit assembly/disassembly register (this WAS pre UART chips) that did al the work. Unfortunately the "parallel" serial interface was only half duplex, as it used the same register for both assembly and disassembly. The "serial" (bit- banging) serial interface IIRC did not have this restriction. Ah, history... -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From korpela at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 11:03:37 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:03:37 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: References: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. There > >was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear in some > >Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo deal, though. The GEOS AOL client was the official AOL client on the PC before the Windows first windows client was released (ca. 1995?). It shipped with a run time GEOS environment. From korpela at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 11:03:37 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:03:37 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: References: <200508181516.IAA16456@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Had to have been AOL, sorry. QLink only ever was a Commodore service. There > >was a GEOS-based AOL client for DOS, and I think that did appear in some > >Radio Shack stores. I don't know if it was an official promo deal, though. The GEOS AOL client was the official AOL client on the PC before the Windows first windows client was released (ca. 1995?). It shipped with a run time GEOS environment. From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Thu Aug 18 12:43:04 2005 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:43:04 +0100 Subject: Old Compaq Portable III to give away (London WC1) Message-ID: <4304C8A8.4050206@imagination.com> Dear CCTALK -- I hope this is an appropriate place to post this kind of message. My company occasionally has old computers and such to get rid of -- "else they're going in the skip". Would anybody be interested in a Compaq Portable III? It's Model 2660 120/240 V, orange screen luggable. Here's a page with pictures I found: http://oldcomputers.net/compaqiii.html It powers up, passes RAM check (640 Kbyte) and then has an error about options not set, then another about time and date. I assume its CMOS RAM battery is flat. I don't know whether it has a hard drive (I think so) or whether it will boot or is repairable. It has a UK keyboard. Yours for Two (2) bottles of beer for first person to e-mail me saying they'll come collect it (from London WC1). Many thanks, Jonathan. jonathan dot laventhol at imagination dot com -- ______________________________________________________________________ Imagination Ltd 25 Store Street South Crescent, London WC1E 7BL, England Tel +44 (0)20 7323 3300 Fax +44 (0)20 7323 5801 ______________________________________________________________________ From CJCRIDER at aol.com Thu Aug 18 17:34:26 2005 From: CJCRIDER at aol.com (CJCRIDER at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:34:26 EDT Subject: Sharp PC 4502 Battery Substitute? Message-ID: <9b.65dd3785.303666f2@aol.com> Jerry, Would you like my pc-4502 with battery and case? Your welcome to it. Craig. From korpela at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 19:40:02 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:40:02 -0700 Subject: Items of interest in Hayward, CA... Message-ID: I was wandering around thrift shops today and stumbled across a used computer store I hadn't seen before on B street, west of Foothill in Hayward. I anticipated that it would be PC/Mac only, like most used computer stores, but was pleasantly surprised. Of course, I didn't write down its name or address. Of interest to this list, here are the things I didn't buy.... A Commodore PET plus (late model 2001, no built in tape drive, with a non-chicklet keyboard). A TS-1000. An AT&T 6300 (or 6300 plus, couldn't see the label.) A Tandy 1000HX (i.e. the one that has the keyboard built into the case). Several Apple II series models. All appeared to be in good condition and the prices were reasonable (i.e. ~$25 for the PET) Eric From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 00:33:25 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? In-Reply-To: <20050814101049.D0B8B39207@linux.local> Message-ID: <20050820053325.38175.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Doubt it's any sort of Mac on a card, though it does appear to be a reasonably complete 68K based system. Got any pics? Can't help with the drivers. There was a Circuit Cellar article (BYTE) probably in the late 80's that described a project based on a 68020 IIRC. It may have been a graphics board though - for an IBM PC. --- Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > i got an ISA card, that includes a MC68000-16, 4 ATT > 3030-100 chips, 4 MByte Ram and > connectors labeled SCSI and Floppy Drive/Floppy > Controller ... > ... it was manufactured 1990/91 by Hydra Systems. > Google revealed, that this could be > a "Andor One"/"Hydra One". Does anyone have some > more information, and maybe the > software required to operate that card ? > > Thanks alot > Bernd > > > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 20 01:34:38 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050820063439.52947.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> ain't most of BGMicro's stuph pulls or whatnot? --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that J.C. Wren may have mentioned these > words: > > I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, > these are used on most > > of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I > don't know how a good a > > deal this is, or the availablity though other > channels, but thought I'd > > pass them on. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-WESTERN-DIGITAL-ICS_W0QQitemZ7537549267 > > > > If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em > fer sale at $4.49 each. > > At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for > comparison. > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather > flock together." > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell > Nelson > zmerch at 30below.com | > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 20 21:41:51 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:41:51 -0700 Subject: Items of interest in Hayward, CA... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508201941510477.057A10C5@192.168.42.129> Hi, Eric, Get me the name of this place, and I'll consider including them in my upcoming review of scrounge stops in the Bay Area. Thanks much. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 19-Aug-05 at 17:40 Eric J Korpela wrote: >I was wandering around thrift shops today and stumbled across a used >computer store I hadn't seen before on B street, west of Foothill in >Hayward. I anticipated that it would be PC/Mac only, like most used >computer stores, but was pleasantly surprised. Of course, I didn't >write down its name or address. > >Of interest to this list, here are the things I didn't buy.... > >A Commodore PET plus (late model 2001, no built in tape drive, with a >non-chicklet keyboard). >A TS-1000. >An AT&T 6300 (or 6300 plus, couldn't see the label.) >A Tandy 1000HX (i.e. the one that has the keyboard built into the case). >Several Apple II series models. > >All appeared to be in good condition and the prices were reasonable >(i.e. ~$25 for the PET) > >Eric -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 21:59:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:59:35 -0400 Subject: Speaking of London (was Re: Old Compaq Portable III to give away (London WC1)) In-Reply-To: <4304C8A8.4050206@imagination.com> References: <4304C8A8.4050206@imagination.com> Message-ID: Since someone mentioned stuff in London for pickup, it's a good time to mention I'll be there for a week at the end of September. Work is sending me there for a conference at the Imperial College. If anyone on the list wants to have a beer or two, please write me off list and I'm sure we can arrange a time and place. It's not my first visit to London, but it's my first in 20 years. Let's put it this way... a pint of bitter was about 87p, and lager was 95p... -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:08:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:08:03 -0400 Subject: Bit banger /analog modem In-Reply-To: <144d78ee24483414a3e10cacae6f553c@localisp.com> References: <144d78ee24483414a3e10cacae6f553c@localisp.com> Message-ID: On 8/17/05, infomagic wrote: > Tony wrote: > have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a > minicomputer. Anyone know of one? > > On the RCA 1802, there was an output line named "Q", and there were two instructions that directly set and reset the line. I believe the CPU had a built-in D-flip-flop for keeping it stable. > > It's my understanding that this line was often used to drive serial output. You might be able to locate software for any of the ELF computers that would show this use. I'll see what I can dig up... Except that the 1802 is most decidedly a microprocessor, not a minicomputer. I am unaware of any mini that did bit-banged serial. There were some DEC console ports that impacted performance (11/750, 82x0/83x0), but they were a hardware implementation AFAIK. Perhaps HP or DG might have an example? -ethan From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 20 22:15:13 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:15:13 -0400 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <200508210229.j7L2Tns9057970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "Along the same line of sharing from AL, can you share with us what Equipment you use to scan books, manuals, and papers in order to archive them on bitsavers?" For anyone looking for a good scanner on a budget ...... The HP 5470C and 5490C are available on E-Bay cheap (sometimes under $10) and these are very high quality high-end scanners that originally sold for $300 to $500 not all that long ago (2002). They were PC Magazine's "Editor's Choice" and they are very hard to beat, even today, for either speed or quality. The 5490 is the model with the automatic document feeder (ADF), the 5470 is without out. But, in fact, the scanners themselves are identical, the document feeder is available separately and is also often sold on E-Bay, it is HP model number C9866A. These are excellent desktop scanners. They have both USB and parallel interfaces, 2400 dpi true hardware resolution, color and black and white (they have multiple sensors for different modes), they are supported by 98, ME, NT, 2000 and XP and they are the quality that you would expect from the products that were -- not all that long ago -- HP's "top of the line". The ADF will do a lot more pages than the ratings, about 60 sheets (the specs, I think, say 25 sheets). About the only drawback is that the scan width is limited to just over 8.5". There are two caveats, both related to the ADF: Be sure that you get the input paper tray, and be sure that you get the [proper] power unit. The paper tray can no longer be ordered separately and the ADF won't work without it. The power unit is still available but is very expensive (possibly more than you will pay for the entire scanner and ADF). The 5470 comes with a 12 volt power supply, both the 5490 and the C9866A add-on come with the dual output 12/24 volt supply required when the ADF is installed. The document feeder does not do duplexing, but Adobe Acrobat has the intelligence to scan all of the odd pages, then flip the stack and scan all of the even pages, and properly interleave the resulting document. Also, you can scan such a document in sections, you don't have to do it all at one pass. Acrobat is actually amazingly competent at doing this, and has become one of my most-used programs. Don't even think about getting a scanner -- any scanner -- without an ADF (document feeder). I have scanned over 20,000 pages in the past 3 years, and even for relatively short items, you really need an ADF. Also, when using an ADF, the document length is not limited by the scanner glass, you can scan (in theory) infinitely long pages. [When an ADF is used, the scanner light and imaging sensor are locked in place and do not move, rather it is the paper that moves.] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:15:08 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:15:08 -0400 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/15/05, William Donzelli wrote: > Like the Sanyo just yesterday, I have a Compaq SLT/286 portable computer > taking up space. Very nice condition, with power unit, dock, and bag. Any > interest CHEAP? I am located in New York, zip 10512. I have one of these - very nice. For those that don't remember, I have a NIC in one ISA slot of the dock, and a proprietary parallel card attached to a device programmer in the other slot. I use Kermit and a packet driver to get device files in and out. The only problems I've had with mine were a) dead battery in the Dallas clock chip (not a "regular" BIOS battery, but not a unique arrangement), and b) a missing battery and missing power brick, so it only works attached to the dock. As a small 286, though, it's a nice package. Someone (else) should jump on it! -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 20 22:34:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:34:13 -0400 Subject: Bit banger /analog modem Message-ID: <0ILJ00HR1Z7TI1Q5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit banger /analog modem > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:08:03 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/17/05, infomagic wrote: >> Tony wrote: >> have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a >> minicomputer. Anyone know of one? >> >> On the RCA 1802, there was an output line named "Q", and there were two instructions that directly set and reset the line. I believe the CPU had a built-in D-flip-flop for keeping it stable. >> >> It's my understanding that this line was often used to drive serial output. You might be able to locate software for any of the ELF computers that would show this use. I'll see what I can dig up... > >Except that the 1802 is most decidedly a microprocessor, not a minicomputer. > >I am unaware of any mini that did bit-banged serial. There were some >DEC console ports that impacted performance (11/750, 82x0/83x0), but >they were a hardware implementation AFAIK. Perhaps HP or DG might >have an example? > >-ethan VAX had a bit of effort doing this as realtime IO was not their forte. PDP-11s however could easily do it. There is a sample of code in the PDP-8 programmers handbook for doing bit banging on an -8. While many machines used hardware to do this it was enough hardware (easily done with out a uart) to warrent another board and represents cost. The trade was using a little of the CPU cycles to dothe IO in software. For system near the bottom dollar wise this can save a few bucks. The real question is is it worth 1-10% of the cpu cycles for IO, and how much IO is needed? Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 22:54:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:54:56 -0400 Subject: Amigas are OK here, eh? ;-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 8/15/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I don't have the coin for one of those Zorro <-> PCI thingamabobs on ePay, > and the last few searches I did didn't bring about much for an ethernet > adapter[1]... I don't have any Zorro<->PCI boards, but I do make the GG2 Bus+, a Zorro<->ISA board. Comes with drivers for some older, standard 16-bit Ethernet cards. The WD/SMC8013 is a good one, the venerable NE2000 is the ordinary one that goes with it. Get a jumpered card so you don't have to fiddle with DOS config programs, or just config a jumperless card in a DOS box and migrate it. > 1) Was there ever a version of OS-9/68K that ran on Amiga hardware? I know > there was one that ran on the Atari ST series... Dunno about OS/68K, but there was Amiga MINIX. > 2) Would I be best off to just buy the latest available version of AmigaOS > (for dox, media, etc.) or should I search/wait/etc. for it? It easily meets > the 'minimum' install requirements for AmigaOS3.9, and is still better than > the "for improved usability" specs... If you don't have docs,, you might want a "new" AmigaOS set, but it probably wouldn't take long to scare up an OS3.1 doc set, or a complete OS 3.5 set for less than OS3.9. > 3) I have access to a SCSI CD-R/RW burner - Is this machine capable of > burning CDs (even at 1x - I'm not in a hurry... ;-) at all? That could help > me making backups in case of a disaster... Yes it is, but back in the old days, the tools to image Amiga filesystem CD-Rs was not freeware. ISO-9660 isn't a problem. > 4) Anything else I forgot to ask about??? ;-) Hmm... the basics are, a) does it boot (does the boot disk still work), b) do you have a mouse and keyboard, c) do you have a network card... so I think you've hit the high points. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 23:06:55 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:06:55 -0400 Subject: Amigas are OK here, eh? ;-) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4307FDDF.2060602@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>1) Was there ever a version of OS-9/68K that ran on Amiga hardware? I know >>there was one that ran on the Atari ST series... > > > Dunno about OS/68K, but there was Amiga MINIX. Which model are we talking about? Something with an MMU? If so, there's a bunch of stuff that'll run. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 23:21:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:21:10 -0400 Subject: Amigas are OK here, eh? ;-) In-Reply-To: <4307FDDF.2060602@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050815162150.01bdb6b8@mail.30below.com> <4307FDDF.2060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/21/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Which model are we talking about? Something with an MMU? If so, > there's a bunch of stuff that'll run. An A4000T does have an MMU, but Amiga Minix does not require that - it runs on an A500. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 20 23:30:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:30:55 -0700 Subject: Bit banger /analog modem References: <0ILJ00HR1Z7TI1Q5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > There is a sample of code in the PDP-8 programmers handbook for doing > bit banging on an -8. While many machines used hardware to do this > it was enough hardware (easily done with out a uart) to warrent another > board and represents cost. The trade was using a little of the CPU cycles > to dothe IO in software. For system near the bottom dollar wise this > can save a few bucks. The real question is is it worth 1-10% of the > cpu cycles for IO, and how much IO is needed? Was there ever an OS for the PDP-8 that used the DL8 natively, as opposed to shipping the data to a PDP-10 or the like? Or does it count even if the bit-banging was done on a mini, but for a larger computer? Vince From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 21 00:08:08 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:08:08 -0700 Subject: Bit banger /analog modem References: <0ILJ00HR1Z7TI1Q5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "vrs" > Was there ever an OS for the PDP-8 that used the DL8 natively, as > opposed to shipping the data to a PDP-10 or the like? To answer my own question, it appears there was support for the DL8 (see also DC08, 680/I) in the Edusystem 50, running TSS/8. Anyway, that looks like bit-banging in a mini to me :-). Vince From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 21 02:41:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:41:17 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4308301D.3050504@oldskool.org> Barry Watzman wrote: > The HP 5470C and 5490C are available on E-Bay cheap (sometimes under $10) My problem with HP scanners isn't with the hardware -- it's usually quite good -- but with the TWAIN driver and/or scanning software you have to use. My preservation work involves scanning a lot of silkscreened material, like software box covers and magazine ads, and I've found that the best way to deal with that is to use the scanner software's built-in de-screening process -- except, unless I'm missing something, HP's software doesn't have any. I currently use Microtek scanners solely for their excellent de-screening options (you can specify the LPI of the screen and it oversamples the image while scanning by that amount and fixes it somehow). I've tried doing my own manual de-screen, but it takes time and isn't easily automated, so that's why I like Microtek's software. If someone knows if HP software has this option, or how they deal with silkscreened images, I'd love some more information. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 21 04:37:55 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:37:55 +0100 Subject: Microvax etc ebay UK In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050820224057.050f17e0@albert> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050820224057.050f17e0@albert> Message-ID: <43084B73.8080705@gjcp.net> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > eBay 5231882901 - microvaxes, currently at ?1.00 ! The comment that > worries me: "also have some other digital / dec stuff in a pile looking > for a home or empty skip !" - anybody in Aberdeen fancy helping this guy? If need be I could probably help out picking them up. I haven't got anywhere to put them. Gordon. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 21 06:56:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 04:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <4307B0AF.6090602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > so I went looking for screen shots. I found a few at > http://www.dsgames.net/qlink/, Keith Elkin's site. After using the > information found there, I emailed Keith about the project, and asked if > there were any more shots. He replied that he had hours of videotape of > the sessions, which he would convert to video files. I just received WTF? I think this is great (in retrospect) from a historical perspective, but why on Earth did he do this? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 21 07:02:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Items of interest in Hayward, CA... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > I was wandering around thrift shops today and stumbled across a used > computer store I hadn't seen before on B street, west of Foothill in > Hayward. I anticipated that it would be PC/Mac only, like most used > computer stores, but was pleasantly surprised. Of course, I didn't > write down its name or address. > > Of interest to this list, here are the things I didn't buy.... > > A Commodore PET plus (late model 2001, no built in tape drive, with a > non-chicklet keyboard). > A TS-1000. > An AT&T 6300 (or 6300 plus, couldn't see the label.) > A Tandy 1000HX (i.e. the one that has the keyboard built into the case). > Several Apple II series models. > > All appeared to be in good condition and the prices were reasonable > (i.e. ~$25 for the PET) That's Asale's Used Computers. She's been a regular at the VCF since 1.0 and also sells at the local ham swaps. I keep meaning to visit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 21 07:30:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: "Along the same line of sharing from AL, can you share with us what > Equipment you use to scan books, manuals, and papers in order to archive > them on bitsavers?" > > For anyone looking for a good scanner on a budget ...... > > The HP 5470C and 5490C are available on E-Bay cheap (sometimes under $10) > and these are very high quality high-end scanners that originally sold for > $300 to $500 not all that long ago (2002). They were PC Magazine's > "Editor's Choice" and they are very hard to beat, even today, for either > speed or quality. I've got an Epson Expression 1680 with ADF that is particularly awesome. Fast and reliable. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 21 08:20:19 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:20:19 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43087F93.8020402@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >WTF? I think this is great (in retrospect) from a historical perspective, >but why on Earth did he do this? > > He was 15. Need there be another reason? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 21 10:37:36 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:37:36 -0700 Subject: MV/4000 on ebay Message-ID: <9d83d84c1bff7e8bb18def5b281c474a@bitsavers.org> just saw this, ends this afternoon #5230917556 no bids, no reserve, $1 start nice config, but has to be picked up in MD From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 21 10:36:45 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:36:45 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <4308301D.3050504@oldskool.org> References: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <4308301D.3050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050821103548.0517ea70@mail> At 02:41 AM 8/21/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >My preservation work involves scanning a lot of silkscreened material You mean "line screened" for color printing processes, not silk-screening as use on t-shirts and art prints, etc. - John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 21 12:38:10 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:38:10 +0200 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050820101024.GB13517@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050820104119.326e2bd2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20050820101024.GB13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050821193810.3cadb267.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:10:24 +0200 Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > My first action will probably be to get a Linux kernel running on it. Linux? How disgusting. ;-) > I haven't yet played a lot with NetBSD (only installed it on a 4000/90 > for a test), but I think I'll load it on some more machines and study > it (esp. the VAX part). IIRC NetBSD/VAX has some initial bis of VAX6000 support... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Aug 21 13:54:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:54:20 -0400 Subject: Bit Banger(s) we all have known. References: <20050817213725.44956.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17160.52700.968930.874172@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Watson writes: Tom> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: >> The earliest desktop comuter I know of with a bit-banged serial >> port is the HP9830. Tom> <<>> >> I have never seen a bit-banged RS232 (or current loop) port on a >> minicomputer. Anyone know of one? Wasn't there a DEC multi-line interface that used a PDP-8 internally? Or was used with a PDP-8??? A classmate of mine built a 4004 based PC from scratch, back in 1974. It had a bitbanger interface, which made the boot loader rather hairy. (Papertape was the only program load medium, apart from the hex keypad.) paul From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 21 14:38:39 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:38:39 -0500 Subject: scanners In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050821103548.0517ea70@mail> References: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <4308301D.3050504@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050821103548.0517ea70@mail> Message-ID: <4308D83F.2000907@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: >>My preservation work involves scanning a lot of silkscreened material > > You mean "line screened" for color printing processes, not > silk-screening as use on t-shirts and art prints, etc. My mistake -- yes, I am referring to line-screened. Thanks for the correction. Still, I'd like to hear how people deal with screened material when scanning. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Aug 21 14:39:41 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:39:41 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <43087F93.8020402@jbrain.com> References: <43087F93.8020402@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4308D87D.5050105@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> WTF? I think this is great (in retrospect) from a historical >> perspective, >> but why on Earth did he do this? >> > He was 15. Need there be another reason? LOL. When I was 12 I took a tape record to the arcade and recorded everything. No reason, just bored. HOW GLAD I AM I HAVE THAT TAPE. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 21 15:22:43 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:22:43 -0400 Subject: drive repair tips? References: <200508161814.LAA20607@clulw009.amd.com><200508162309.TAA25204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17155.16310.715000.822529@gargle.gargle.HOWL><200508180654.CAA19941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><17156.36728.139144.497157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200508182020.QAA24472@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><6.2.1.2.2.20050818153132.05436c68@mail> Message-ID: <001101c5a68e$1701fbe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Yecch. Tri-wing bits. I hate the blasted things - What's the big deal with just taking an old bent or broken tip screwdriver and grinding it down to the proper shape? My machinist friend would remind you to quench the metal in water periodically so as to keep the temperature down, and keep the metal at a good strength. That's all it has to take to get your own Tri-wing removal tool: screwdriver, grinding wheel, cup of water. John A. From allain at panix.com Sun Aug 21 15:33:12 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:33:12 -0400 Subject: scanners References: <200508210315.j7L3F7YG003161@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <4308301D.3050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003901c5a68f$9092c880$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > If someone knows if HP software has this option, > or how they deal with silkscreened images, I'd love > some more information. The 3500c that I have came with a de-screen. Increases the sampling, or at least the time to transfer the samples. Noticeably good job with magazine offset color or variable-sized B&W dots. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 21 12:57:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:57:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bit Banger(s) we all have known. In-Reply-To: <20050817213725.44956.qmail@web60824.mail.yahoo.com> from "Tom Watson" at Aug 17, 5 02:37:25 pm Message-ID: > Well (since you asked) the original serial interface for the HP 2116 > computer (around 1966 or so) was a serial bit-banging interface. You > needed to assemble the byte from the ASR-33 (or 35, take your pick) > teletype a bit at a time. They later had the bit assembly/disassembly > register (this WAS pre UART chips) that did al the work. Unfortunately > the "parallel" serial interface was only half duplex, as it used the > same register for both assembly and disassembly. The "serial" (bit- > banging) serial interface IIRC did not have this restriction. COme to think of it, that's very similar to the serial interfaces for the 98x0 calculators. The hardware one only had a single shift register for both Tx and Rx. I think there was a status line brought out (at RS232 levels) on one of the handshake pins that indicated to the peripheral when the calcultor was expecting input. It's a half-duplex device. The bit-banger had no common circuitry between the input and output, and could be used in full-duplex mode. It was only supported on the 9830 (BASIC-language) machine, but I can't see a hardware reason why there couldn't have been firmware written for it on the other machines in the range. -tony From classiccmp at ultra-gonzos.de Sun Aug 21 18:15:28 2005 From: classiccmp at ultra-gonzos.de (Florian Mayer) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:15:28 +0200 Subject: Data I/O 2900 system disk? In-Reply-To: References: <200506011700.j51H0X2w035472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43090B10.8040603@ultra-gonzos.de> Mark KAHRS wrote: >I obtained a Data I/O 2900 programmer at Dayton in rather grotty but >serviceable shape. But it is missing it's little old floppy (the >disk, not the drive). The Data I/O website is silent on this. >Anyone know where to find one? > >Also, to add to Ethan's Dayton report: I saw several Ultra 1s >[one going for $5 at the end of Saturday] but no DEC, No SGI >and certainly no Xerox Altos. > > > I could load up a disk image on my FTP space, I currently use a 2900 for burning my EPROMs. But there are only algorithms for EPROMs on the disk. Three years ago I asked at Data IO Germany for more current software for it they wanted 1000 Euros from me. From KParker at workcover.com Sun Aug 21 18:57:04 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:27:04 +0930 Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D2A0@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I am located in OZ but about a 10-12 hour trip away from where this guy is - I've just fired off an email myself expressing some interest. If I get what I am looking for I may have to make a trip over there and may have some capacity to get other stuff. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2005 3:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP11 stuff in OZ > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Aug 17, 2005 12:30 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ > > If someone is nearby.. > > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/equip_list.html If anyone is in Australia and is willing to collect and ship some items to the USA for me, I will be glad to pay you for your time and effort. I have attempted to contact the owner of these items but have not received a response. I would very much like to have the spare 11/40 CPU set since I have both a functional 11/40 and 11/35, as well as a sick 11/35. My 11/40 is part of a historic functional display of a 1970s timesharing academic computer center and I would like to be able to have spares to keep it up and running. If anyone in Australia is willing to help, please contact me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. Thanks, Ashley ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From cbajpai at comcast.net Sun Aug 21 19:47:22 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:47:22 -0400 Subject: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? In-Reply-To: <20050820053325.38175.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200508220057.j7M0vF9p057051@keith.ezwind.net> This is definitely a Mac-compatible (hardware-wise) on a PC ISA card. I remember when Hydra Systems out of Silicon Valley (San Jose I think) introduced the product back in 1991. All you needed to do was to add some Mac 128K ROMS (ala Atari MagicSac) and you could make your PC run Mac software. Tom Owad would be a great source of info...he's been interested in Mac Compatibles for a long time...I gave him my Akkord Mac compatible. (which is probably something I'll regret) If you find a MacWorld with the NuTek Mac compatible article on the front cover, you should find a reference to the Hydra board in it. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:33 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? Doubt it's any sort of Mac on a card, though it does appear to be a reasonably complete 68K based system. Got any pics? Can't help with the drivers. There was a Circuit Cellar article (BYTE) probably in the late 80's that described a project based on a 68020 IIRC. It may have been a graphics board though - for an IBM PC. --- Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > i got an ISA card, that includes a MC68000-16, 4 ATT > 3030-100 chips, 4 MByte Ram and > connectors labeled SCSI and Floppy Drive/Floppy > Controller ... > ... it was manufactured 1990/91 by Hydra Systems. > Google revealed, that this could be > a "Andor One"/"Hydra One". Does anyone have some > more information, and maybe the > software required to operate that card ? > > Thanks alot > Bernd > > > > ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Aug 21 19:49:05 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 01:49:05 +0100 Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <724e2a9e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I assusme you've seen the Elektor GBDSO project? (Game Boy Digital > Sampling Oscilloscope). Looked interesting, but too proprietary for my > taste (no sources for the firmware are available, for example). My thoughts exactly. I don't usually build stuff when the firmware sources are unavailable. It also seems to be quite limited - high AF at best, not much good for anything other than debugging audio gear. > Has somebody done a logic analyser for the Gameboy? Or is this just an > idea of yours? It's one of my ideas. My HP 1651B keeps running out of sample RAM on fast signals. I think 64kbytes should be enough :) I'm also toying with the idea of building a 40MHz version of the GBDSO. The hard bit is finding amplifiers that are fast enough, and learning about the analogue side of things - I've never really done any analogue design. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc ... Today is cancelled due to lack of interest! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 21 20:13:38 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:13:38 -0700 Subject: New POWER toys References: <200508200628.j7K6RoKV045157@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4307A5D3.6060807@seefried.com> Message-ID: <430926C2.5C34DB82@cs.ubc.ca> Ken Seefried wrote: ... Except the IBM rep. Paraphrased: > > ME: Hi...I'm doing the architecture for the new network. I'm going to send you a bunch of requirements, and I'm going to need the following things in return. > IBM Sales Drone: ...Why? > ME: Ummm....because we will be selecting a vendor for the routing elements based on this evaluation. > ISD: ...No your not. You're going to buy the new 6611. You're an IBM customer. <- direct quote > ME: ...Really? > ISD: Yes, you are. I don't understand why we are even having this conversation. <- also a quote > ME: Thanks. > > I sent the doco over, they didn't respond, then raised hell at the C-level that they hadn't been given the chance to participate when we picked another vendor. My mangement told them to pound sand, and my CIO got mad enoungh to say things that made an IBM VP blush. Wow! I recall hearing in the early-mid 80s when the university computing services (long-time IBM shop) selected an Amdahl CPU instead of an IBM for the next upgrade that a coterie of none-too-happy IBM reps paid a visit. Probably not uncommon at the time as IBM started to lose their grip on such shops, but I would have thought that by the 90s when your incident occurred that IBM would have 'adjusted their attitude'. Maybe you got an old rep who was still trying to live the days when "ibm" was " I B M ". From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 23:01:16 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:01:16 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 I/O Card Manuals Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905082121014ed4cc68@mail.gmail.com> I recently picked up an HP 12979 I/O extender with some cards and now I'm looking for manuals. If someone has manuals for any of the following and could scan them when time permits that would be much appreciated. (Yes, I did check bitsavers before asking.) 12979A 12979B 12979C I/O Extender 11629-60001 44 BIT GPO (General Purpose Output?) I can't find any references to this card. Looks like it basically has a transister (or pair) for each output bit. 12551B Relay Output Register 12554A 16-Bit Duplex Register 12604B General Purpose Data Source Interface A Pocket Guide to Interfacing HP Computers (5950-8718) contains some information on these cards. 12661A Digital Voltage Source Programmer Apparently this would be used to control equipment such as the HP 6131B Digital Voltage Source. From lcourtney at mvista.com Sun Aug 21 23:32:49 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:32:49 -0700 Subject: Seeking HP7978 Tape Drive Manual In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905082121014ed4cc68@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Anyone have a pointer to a hardware manual for an HP 7978 1/2" tape drive. Specifically I'm looking for descriptions of the built in self tests in the drive? I've looked in the usual places: bitsaves.org, HP Support, Google, but no joy. Thanks! Lee Courtney From cctech at retro.co.za Mon Aug 22 00:02:57 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:02:57 +0200 Subject: FDDI (was Vax 6320 on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <200508210229.j7L2THo6057763@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508210229.j7L2THo6057763@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050822065744.03502210@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all >You're thinking about the U.S. Navy? I heard from them a few years >ago when they realized that FDDI was dead, dead, dead, and they had to >look for alternatives, because new FDDI hardware could no longer be >obtained anywhere. http://www.ccii.co.za [and for those of you who don't want to open a browser to find out what I'm on about, CCII Systems are as far as I know the only people still making FDDI adapters (primarily in PMC form-factor) and we (yea, I work here :-) plan on making them for a while still...] W From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Aug 22 01:30:57 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:30:57 -0400 Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR In-Reply-To: <1124397063.28931.43.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: I have some knowledge about it. What are you looking for? Greg Manuel www.gmconsulting.net > -----Original Message----- > From: John R. Hogerhuis [mailto:jhoger at pobox.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR > > > Does anyone here have knowledge of the protocol used by the DOS6 > INTERLNK/INTERSVR utilities? > > Thanks, > > -- John. > > > > ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Aug 22 01:35:13 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:35:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple IIe serial card In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E63@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: I may have one. I just received an Apple IIe and am new to the Apple side of things. I was mainly Commodore 64, Tandy TRS-80 Model I, and Atari 800XL back then. If you can tell me what I might look like I can check it tomorrow and see if I do. Also, you would have to make me an offer on the card. I really have no idea how much it would be worth. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelly Leavitt [mailto:CCTalk at catcorner.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:06 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Looking for an Apple IIe serial card > > > Subject says it all. I would need it shipped to 07461 (New Jersey). > > Let me know how much you would want for it, including shipping. > > Thanks, > Kelly > > > ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Aug 22 01:47:44 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:47:44 +0200 Subject: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? In-Reply-To: <20050820053325.38175.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050822053814.5E6C73958B@linux.local> Hi, you can find a picture of the card here : http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5223833565&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1 The card you are thinking of is a Definicon DSI-780 card, which in fact is "only" a processor add on card (processor, memory, own runtime environment), whereas the Hydra card at least was announced as "Mac on ISA" ... Ciao Bernd On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:33:25 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: > Doubt it's any sort of Mac on a card, though it does >appear to be a reasonably complete 68K based system. >Got any pics? Can't help with the drivers. There was a >Circuit Cellar article (BYTE) probably in the late >80's that described a project based on a 68020 IIRC. >It may have been a graphics board though - for an IBM >PC. > >--- Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >> Hi, >> i got an ISA card, that includes a MC68000-16, 4 ATT >> 3030-100 chips, 4 MByte Ram and >> connectors labeled SCSI and Floppy Drive/Floppy >> Controller ... >> ... it was manufactured 1990/91 by Hydra Systems. >> Google revealed, that this could be >> a "Andor One"/"Hydra One". Does anyone have some >> more information, and maybe the >> software required to operate that card ? >> >> Thanks alot >> Bernd >> >> >> >> > > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Aug 22 01:51:15 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:51:15 +0200 Subject: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? In-Reply-To: <200508220057.j7M0vF9p057051@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050822054145.EAC713958B@linux.local> Hi Chandra, thanks for that information, i will try to contact Tom ... ... as i'm not really in the "Mac business", is the specific MacWorld issue available online ? Thanks Bernd On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:47:22 -0400, Chandra Bajpai wrote: >This is definitely a Mac-compatible (hardware-wise) on a PC ISA card. I >remember when Hydra Systems out of Silicon Valley (San Jose I think) >introduced the product back in 1991. All you needed to do was to add some >Mac 128K ROMS (ala Atari MagicSac) and you could make your PC run Mac >software. Tom Owad would be a great source of info...he's been interested >in Mac Compatibles for a long time...I gave him my Akkord Mac compatible. >(which is probably something I'll regret) > >If you find a MacWorld with the NuTek Mac compatible article on the front >cover, you should find a reference to the Hydra board in it. > >-Chandra > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Chris M >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:33 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >Subject: Re: Hydra Systems : Mac on ISA card ?? > > Doubt it's any sort of Mac on a card, though it does >appear to be a reasonably complete 68K based system. >Got any pics? Can't help with the drivers. There was a >Circuit Cellar article (BYTE) probably in the late >80's that described a project based on a 68020 IIRC. >It may have been a graphics board though - for an IBM >PC. > >--- Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >> Hi, >> i got an ISA card, that includes a MC68000-16, 4 ATT >> 3030-100 chips, 4 MByte Ram and >> connectors labeled SCSI and Floppy Drive/Floppy >> Controller ... >> ... it was manufactured 1990/91 by Hydra Systems. >> Google revealed, that this could be >> a "Andor One"/"Hydra One". Does anyone have some >> more information, and maybe the >> software required to operate that card ? >> >> Thanks alot >> Bernd >> >> >> >> > > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Aug 22 01:49:18 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:49:18 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: <430431FA.1060004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Great Project. Brings back some fond memories. Are you going to do Rabbit Jacks Casino too? Greg Manuel www.gmconsulting.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain [mailto:brain at jbrain.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:00 AM > To: Classic Computer Talk > Subject: QuantumLink progress update > > > Just to let folks know that the QLink server re-implementation is going > well. At present, the following is working: > > X.25 packet sequence simulation > Initial disk reset handshake > Read account and code off disk > If match, validate disk with new code and go to welcome text > If not, bring up dialog and ask user for screen name, with erro > checking. Add user, hook account code, and validate disk > Show welcome text and await F5 to go to Main Menu > Allow user to select any of the areas on the main menu > For People Connection, allow access to any public or private room, > ignore, de-ignore users, change rooms, change to another area, quit, > send or receive email. > For the other areas, show initial menu, and allow change to other areas, > email, or leave. > When a user gets mail, the "You've got mail" icon shows on their screen. > > The server implements the required packet based sliding window protocol > and handles handshaking. > > I'm working on adding online messages (IMs), and the Auditorium room, > then the file areas (will gateway to FTP/HTTP sites) > > If there is interest, I can provide more details on-list or off-list. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations > brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com > Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > > ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Aug 22 02:11:57 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:11:57 -0700 Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124694717.28931.239.camel@aragorn> > > From: John R. Hogerhuis [mailto:jhoger at pobox.com] > > > Does anyone here have knowledge of the protocol used by the DOS6 > > INTERLNK/INTERSVR utilities? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- John. > > I have some knowledge about it. What are you looking for? > > Greg Manuel > www.gmconsulting.net > I'm looking for the packet structures and protocol information; basically I'm interested in any information that would be required to implement my own version of INTERSVR. The intent is to make something that would run on a non-DOS platform as an INTERLNK server. Thanks, -- John. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 22 09:12:34 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:12:34 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink progress update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4309DD52.3050504@jbrain.com> GManuel (GMC) wrote: >Great Project. Brings back some fond memories. Are you going to do Rabbit >Jacks Casino too? > > Yep, and Club Caribe, Puzzler, etc. Base is first, though, and then the games. As of last night, OLMs (IM's) are implemented, as is the auditorium, and the non-chat areas supported a menu being tied to a gatway to another service. I've implemented a gateway to telnet, so anything telnettable can be attahed as the destination of a menu item. I was using the gatway to hit a shell and IRC last weekend. :-) As of now, I'm trying to finish the Auditorium , and implement the message bases. File areas will be next to last, and then move into the games. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Aug 22 11:36:05 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:36:05 -0400 Subject: RX11 schematics Message-ID: <4309FEF5.3090402@nktelco.net> I need the schematics for the RX11 Unibus module, M7846. I looked in all the obvious places without success. Anybody have a copy or know where to find one? -chuck From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 22 11:37:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR In-Reply-To: <1124694717.28931.239.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > I'm looking for the packet structures and protocol information; > basically I'm interested in any information that would be required to > implement my own version of INTERSVR. The intent is to make something > that would run on a non-DOS platform as an INTERLNK server. Ooh, great idea. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Aug 22 11:53:22 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:53:22 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <20050820063439.52947.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050812094522.03a6bc90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050822125218.03ad1858@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >ain't most of BGMicro's stuph pulls or whatnot? Some, and when it is, they tell you. Other than some of their EPROMS, I think most of the chips they carry are NOS. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 22 12:36:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR Message-ID: <200508221736.KAA24220@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've cracked other protocols by connecting another computer up to monitor the traffic on the serial lines. I don't think they did anything fancy. Probably the toughest thing might be determining the CRC,ECC or checksum method that they use. It would be best if you could simultaneously monitor both directions with two serial ports but I just did one direction at a time and then experimented until I got all the handshake. You, of course only want to use the input of the monitoring computer. You could make a snooping connector or as I did. I just used two easy clips on the exposed connector. Dwight >From: "John R. Hogerhuis" > >> > From: John R. Hogerhuis [mailto:jhoger at pobox.com] >> >> > Does anyone here have knowledge of the protocol used by the DOS6 >> > INTERLNK/INTERSVR utilities? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > -- John. >> >> I have some knowledge about it. What are you looking for? >> >> Greg Manuel >> www.gmconsulting.net >> > >I'm looking for the packet structures and protocol information; >basically I'm interested in any information that would be required to >implement my own version of INTERSVR. The intent is to make something >that would run on a non-DOS platform as an INTERLNK server. > >Thanks, > >-- John. > > From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Aug 22 13:41:49 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:41:49 -0400 Subject: FA: Semi-OT Radisys EPC-2221 Single Board Computer Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545AAF@cpexchange.olf.com> Have way too many toys, so I am cleaning stuff out. I just recently upgraded my rackmount to a 3.06Ghz Single Board Computer and hence cleaning out some PICMG/SBC based stuff. In the next several days, I will be posting some more PICMG-based computers on ebay, but for now, here is a Celeron 466MHz-based Radisys EPC-2221 on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6796091207&sspagename=ADM E:B:AAQ:US:1#ebayphotohosting Cheers, Ram From rcini at optonline.net Mon Aug 22 14:04:43 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:04:43 -0400 Subject: Paging: Bill Dawson Message-ID: <001601c5a74c$5abe6f30$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Bill: It seems that I'm having problems reaching you through email. I receive your messages and reply but it seems you are not receiving all of the replies. I just sent you a test email from an alternative email account -- please let me know if you receive it from MSN. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Mon Aug 22 14:01:41 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:01:41 -1000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just recently got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running again. On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:15:08 -0400, "Ethan Dicks" said: > I have one of these - very nice. For those that don't remember, I > have a NIC in one ISA slot of the dock, and a proprietary parallel > card attached to a device programmer in the other slot. I use Kermit > and a packet driver to get device files in and out. The only problems > I've had with mine were a) dead battery in the Dallas clock chip (not > a "regular" BIOS battery, but not a unique arrangement), and b) a > missing battery and missing power brick, so it only works attached to > the dock. > > As a small 286, though, it's a nice package. Someone (else) should jump > on it! > > -ethan > From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Aug 22 14:08:58 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:08:58 -0400 Subject: comdesign qbus card? Message-ID: <200508221908.j7MJ8wRB027385@mwave.heeltoe.com> Anyone have a QBUS ComDesign 4-port card? A friend used to work there and was waxing poetic the other day and claimed he'd like to have one. I thought I'd ask here... -brad From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 22 14:13:16 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:13:16 -0700 Subject: Seeking HP7978 Tape Drive Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508221213.16678.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 21 August 2005 21:32, Lee Courtney wrote: > Anyone have a pointer to a hardware manual for an HP 7978 1/2" tape drive. > Specifically I'm looking for descriptions of the built in self tests in the > drive? I've looked in the usual places: bitsaves.org, HP Support, Google, > but no joy. > > Thanks! > > Lee Courtney Lee, I have the user and service manual pdf's. Contact me offlist. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 22 15:19:00 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:19:00 -0700 Subject: Seeking HP7978 Tape Drive Manual In-Reply-To: <200508221213.16678.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200508221213.16678.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200508221319.00815.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 22 August 2005 12:13, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sunday 21 August 2005 21:32, Lee Courtney wrote: > > Anyone have a pointer to a hardware manual for an HP 7978 1/2" tape > > drive. Specifically I'm looking for descriptions of the built in self > > tests in the drive? I've looked in the usual places: bitsaves.org, HP > > Support, Google, but no joy. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Lee Courtney > > Lee, I have the user and service manual pdf's. Contact me offlist. > > Lyle Lee, I also found tape manuals on bitsavers. The 88780 covers several drives - and most of the diags are the same for all drives... See: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/ Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jhoger at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 16:25:20 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:25:20 -0700 Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR In-Reply-To: <200508221736.KAA24220@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508221736.KAA24220@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I've cracked other protocols by connecting another > computer up to monitor the traffic on the serial lines. > I don't think they did anything fancy. Probably the toughest > thing might be determining the CRC,ECC or checksum method > that they use. It would be best if you could simultaneously > monitor both directions with two serial ports but > I just did one direction at a time and then experimented > until I got all the handshake. > You, of course only want to use the input of the monitoring > computer. You could make a snooping connector or as I did. > I just used two easy clips on the exposed connector. > Dwight > Yes, if I can't find any info (which it looks like is going to be the case) I will have to reverse engineer it. The protocol sniffer I use is "snooper" from debian... it uses two real serial ports and bridges them through software while showing the traffic in hex on-screen. It also shows the flow control lines. Of course clipping onto the leads as you did will give more accurate results, but if the protocol is largely request/response oriented a man-in-the-middle type snooper should be good-enough. What I expect to see is a lean packet around a serialized form of DOS software interrupts. But I don't know all that much about DOS so I don't know yet how the redirector works but I suspect that is the key concept to understand. Aside from the data protocol, possibly the flow control lines may be used for something when present. Anyway, just have to get out the tools :-) Thanks, -- John. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 17:14:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:14:47 -0500 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/05, David Vohs wrote: > Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just recently > got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running > again. I do not, sorry. I do have an ancient Connor 3.5" 30MB drive in it, but I don't think it has a diagnostic partition -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 22 16:53:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:53:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: drive repair tips? In-Reply-To: <724e2a9e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 22, 5 01:49:05 am Message-ID: [ELektor GBDSO] > My thoughts exactly. I don't usually build stuff when the firmware sources > are unavailable. It also seems to be quite limited - high AF at best, not > much good for anything other than debugging audio gear. Actually, a low-bandwidth scope is still useful for looking for power supply ripple, looking at motor drive signals, SMPSU waveforms, etc. This one, like the Velleman LCD 'scope that I have, has the advantage that it's not connected to the mains, so it can be 'floated' (taking great care!) for looking at signals on the mains side of an SMPSU. [...] > I'm also toying with the idea of building a 40MHz version of the GBDSO. The > hard bit is finding amplifiers that are fast enough, and learning about the > analogue side of things - I've never really done any analogue design. >From what I rememebr, Burr-Brown did some nice ones, Analogue Devices did some with very misleading data sheets. Be warned that hogh-speed analogue design is not easy. 'Strays' (PCB inductance nad capacitance) matter even more than for high speed digital design. Op-amps misbehave, it's not at all uncommon for there to be significant phase shift at high frequencies -- enough to turn -ve freedback into +ve. If you're trying to get a low gain out of an op-amp -- that is, you've applied a lot of -ve feedback -- it's likely the darn thing will turn into a nice RF oscillator. -tony From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 22 17:51:22 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:51:22 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <20050820063439.52947.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050820063439.52947.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430A56EA.2050907@bellsouth.net> Chris M wrote: > ain't most of BGMicro's stuph pulls or whatnot? > Not in my experience. Surplus, yes -- pulls, no. I've bought lots of fuses and odd transistors from them without problem. Glen 0/0 > --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >>Rumor has it that J.C. Wren may have mentioned these >>words: >> >>> I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, >> >>these are used on most >> >>>of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I >> >>don't know how a good a >> >>>deal this is, or the availablity though other >> >>channels, but thought I'd >> >>>pass them on. >>> >>>> > http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-WESTERN-DIGITAL-ICS_W0QQitemZ7537549267 > >> > >> >>If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em >>fer sale at $4.49 each. >> >>At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for >>comparison. >> >>HTH, >>Roger "Merch" Merchberger >> >>-- >>Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather >>flock together." >>sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell >>Nelson >>zmerch at 30below.com | >> >> > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 22 18:18:14 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:18:14 +0100 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <430A56EA.2050907@bellsouth.net> References: <20050820063439.52947.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> <430A56EA.2050907@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20d3a59e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <430A56EA.2050907 at bellsouth.net> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Not in my experience. Surplus, yes -- pulls, no. > I've bought lots of fuses and odd transistors from them > without problem. That's been my experience too - I bought some uPD765 FDCs (actually Rockwell R6765s, but effectively the same chip) from them a while back. No trace of damage to the pins, no solder on them, still the same length they were when the chips left the factory, and still splayed out. Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Error 216: Tagline out of paper From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Aug 22 18:37:25 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:37:25 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 I/O Card Manuals References: <1e1fc3e905082121014ed4cc68@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c5a772$74eebb00$0100a8c0@screamer> I have info on all of these except the voltage source programmer. Some of the info is a bit limited, as the boards are described in the "Pocket Guide to Interfacing HP Computers" manual, but you already know about that. The Relay Output board is perhaps the most interesting of the bunch, simply output a word to the slot, and you get a set of closed contacts, pin-outs are in the pocket guide. A great board for blinkinlights. The 12604 is used to read data from old HP instruments like the 2401 digital meters. If your really interested, I may have a spare cable, and I do have a Dymec 2401 meter. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 12:01 AM Subject: HP 1000 I/O Card Manuals >I recently picked up an HP 12979 I/O extender with some cards and now > I'm looking for manuals. If someone has manuals for any of the > following and could scan them when time permits that would be much > appreciated. (Yes, I did check bitsavers before asking.) > > > 12979A 12979B 12979C I/O Extender > > 11629-60001 44 BIT GPO (General Purpose Output?) > I can't find any references to this card. Looks like it basically has > a transister (or pair) for each output bit. > > 12551B Relay Output Register > 12554A 16-Bit Duplex Register > 12604B General Purpose Data Source Interface > A Pocket Guide to Interfacing HP Computers (5950-8718) contains some > information on these cards. > > 12661A Digital Voltage Source Programmer > Apparently this would be used to control equipment such as the HP > 6131B Digital Voltage Source. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 22 20:06:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:06:46 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: <0ILN00284HQYBWS0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Ah foo, I'll put it on top as there so much. I've done a fair amount of business with BGmicro, never had a problem. Often the prices are wicked cheap. Allison > >Subject: Re: WD 1793 FDCs for sale > From: Glen Goodwin > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:51:22 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chris M wrote: >> ain't most of BGMicro's stuph pulls or whatnot? >> > >Not in my experience. Surplus, yes -- pulls, no. >I've bought lots of fuses and odd transistors from them >without problem. > >Glen >0/0 > >> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: >> >> >>>Rumor has it that J.C. Wren may have mentioned these >>>words: >>> >>>> I saw these browsing around eBay today. IIRC, >>> >>>these are used on most >>> >>>>of the S100 floppy controllers, are they not? I >>> >>>don't know how a good a >>> >>>>deal this is, or the availablity though other >>> >>>channels, but thought I'd >>> >>>>pass them on. >>>> >>>>>> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-WESTERN-DIGITAL-ICS_W0QQitemZ7537549267 >> >>> > >>> >>>If you don't need 38 of 'em, www.bgmicro.com has 'em >>>fer sale at $4.49 each. >>> >>>At the auction, you're spending $3.63 each, just for >>>comparison. >>> >>>HTH, >>>Roger "Merch" Merchberger >>> >>>-- >>>Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather >>>flock together." >>>sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell >>>Nelson >>>zmerch at 30below.com | >>> >>> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 22 20:10:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:10:38 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: <0ILN001WBHXEEOX0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WD 1793 FDCs for sale > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:18:14 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >In message <430A56EA.2050907 at bellsouth.net> > Glen Goodwin wrote: > >> Not in my experience. Surplus, yes -- pulls, no. >> I've bought lots of fuses and odd transistors from them >> without problem. > >That's been my experience too - I bought some uPD765 FDCs (actually Rockwell >R6765s, but effectively the same chip) from them a while back. No trace of >damage to the pins, no solder on them, still the same length they were when >the chips left the factory, and still splayed out. > >Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator... If I can ever scan it there is a design I have (NEC apnote) for a data seperator for FM/MFM that works for any rate and media. Uses a prom and a latch (yes a state machine) to do synthetic PLL. Analog PLLs were causing people too much pain and oneshots perform poorly. Lacking that if you can find SMC9229 or '39 part that does a lot of the work for you. Allison From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Aug 22 20:52:07 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:52:07 -0700 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator... There's a good detailed one in the Applications Notes that Al K. scanned in from the old CDC stuff I loaned him. It has waveshapes, timing, et. Don't remember if that one had PCB layout in it, but most CDC ANs did. I know a lot of small companies asked to use it. They were told to do whatever they wanted with it. Billy From allain at panix.com Mon Aug 22 21:07:16 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:07:16 -0400 Subject: INTERLNK/INTERSVR References: <200508221736.KAA24220@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <003601c5a787$6367d5a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Was snooping the thread and directing most to /dev/null. Not this, sounds great! Thanks. John A. > The protocol sniffer I use is "snooper" from debian... it uses two > real serial ports and bridges them through software while showing the > traffic in hex on-screen. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 23:41:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:41:13 -0500 Subject: Could I ask a favor only a Canadian can help with? In-Reply-To: <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> References: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> Message-ID: Dan, I want to get my girlfriend a present that must be paid for with Canadian cash - $20 CDN. Can I paypal you the equivalent in USD and have you wrap the cash up and mail it to a US address? Let me know what the total will come to and I can send the address plus a couple of items of info to enclose with the money. Thanks if you can help, -ethan From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Aug 23 00:05:51 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:05:51 +1200 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <00b601c5a7a0$551ce490$7900a8c0@athlon1200> If you can give me any more info to positively ID the specific FDD I might try to find it- The stash it may be in (not mine-but I have access) is several hundred floppys-hence the better it can be identified, the faster and more likely I am to spot it. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Vohs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Compaq SLT/286 > Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just > recently > got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running > again. > > > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:15:08 -0400, "Ethan Dicks" > said: >> I have one of these - very nice. For those that don't remember, I >> have a NIC in one ISA slot of the dock, and a proprietary parallel >> card attached to a device programmer in the other slot. I use >> Kermit >> and a packet driver to get device files in and out. The only >> problems >> I've had with mine were a) dead battery in the Dallas clock chip >> (not >> a "regular" BIOS battery, but not a unique arrangement), and b) a >> missing battery and missing power brick, so it only works attached >> to >> the dock. >> >> As a small 286, though, it's a nice package. Someone (else) should >> jump >> on it! >> >> -ethan >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: > 19/08/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 19/08/2005 From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 00:25:34 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:25:34 +0800 Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D2A0@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D2A0@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On 8/22/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > I am located in OZ but about a 10-12 hour trip away from where this guy > is - I've just fired off an email myself expressing some interest. If I > get what I am looking for I may have to make a trip over there and may > have some capacity to get other stuff. > Kevin, I'm located in KL, Malaysia, and am interested in the following stuff, but don't know whether you are able to ship it or not...but here goes any way: PDP8/e CPU PDP8/e memory PDP8/e various RK11-D RK11-D complete with backplane RL11 controller (2) PDP11/50 in rack (I wish but I can't take the rack, it'l cost me thousands of bucks to ship) RK05 absolute air filters (HEPA), unused (4) RK05J (3) See what you are able to ship, and we can take it from there.. Thanks for the service offer, though. /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 00:42:22 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:42:22 +0800 Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ In-Reply-To: References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D2A0@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: Oops...pressed send too soon.. Might as well grab the 11/50 memories if possible 11/40/45/50 various core memory 11/50 fastbus memory On 8/23/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 8/22/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > I am located in OZ but about a 10-12 hour trip away from where this guy > > is - I've just fired off an email myself expressing some interest. If I > > get what I am looking for I may have to make a trip over there and may > > have some capacity to get other stuff. > > > > Kevin, > I'm located in KL, Malaysia, and am interested in the following stuff, > but don't know whether you are able to ship it or not...but here goes > any way: > > PDP8/e CPU > PDP8/e memory > PDP8/e various > RK11-D > RK11-D complete with backplane > RL11 controller (2) > > PDP11/50 in rack (I wish but I can't take the rack, it'l cost me > thousands of bucks to ship) > > RK05 absolute air filters (HEPA), unused (4) > RK05J (3) > > See what you are able to ship, and we can take it from there.. > Thanks for the service offer, though. > > /wai-sun > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 23 02:16:24 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:16:24 +0100 Subject: FM/MFM data separators (was: WD 1793 FDCs for sale) In-Reply-To: <0ILN001WBHXEEOX0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0ILN001WBHXEEOX0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4d9ad19e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <0ILN001WBHXEEOX0 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Allison wrote: > If I can ever scan it there is a design I have (NEC apnote) for a > data seperator for FM/MFM that works for any rate and media. Uses > a prom and a latch (yes a state machine) to do synthetic PLL. Analog > PLLs were causing people too much pain and oneshots perform poorly. I would love a copy of that appnote - either scanned or photocopied is good (if photocopied, I'll scan it and put it online myself). I've seen another design that uses a state machine, but couldn't find any info on what it could handle or how it worked. It's on if anyone's interested. I'd really like to get my hands on any of the Rockwell/MOS/Synertek 6502-series appnotes, or anything on the uPD765 or R6765. Also, has anyone got any data on the Fairchild 96LS488? > Lacking that if you can find SMC9229 or '39 part that does a lot > of the work for you. *checks Google Obsolete and unobtainium. :( The datasheet is probably on Bitsavers, but I doubt it's got any real info on how the chip works internally. Certainly not enough to reimplement it from off-the-shelf parts. Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... "Bother", said Pooh, as he saw the mushroom cloud. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Aug 23 05:14:28 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:14:28 +0200 Subject: Free : Digital LA210 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050823121205.02e1c790@pop.xs4all.nl> Free a Digital LA210 in the south-west of the Netherlands. There are also a few boxes of new ribbons. There are a few more printers that will be thrown out so if you are looking for anything let me know (also some banana boxes full of unusued ribbons for various printers). Has to be picked up within +/- 2 weeks. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 23 06:24:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:24:22 -0400 Subject: FM/MFM data separators (was: WD 1793 FDCs for sale) Message-ID: <0ILO001DLAC5NN60@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: FM/MFM data separators (was: WD 1793 FDCs for sale) > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:16:24 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >In message <0ILN001WBHXEEOX0 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > Allison wrote: > >> If I can ever scan it there is a design I have (NEC apnote) for a >> data seperator for FM/MFM that works for any rate and media. Uses >> a prom and a latch (yes a state machine) to do synthetic PLL. Analog >> PLLs were causing people too much pain and oneshots perform poorly. > >I would love a copy of that appnote - either scanned or photocopied is good >(if photocopied, I'll scan it and put it online myself). I've seen another >design that uses a state machine, but couldn't find any info on what it could >handle or how it worked. It's on > if anyone's interested. That site has a copy of the circuit and the prom contents. It can handle all modes and rates. >I'd really like to get my hands on any of the Rockwell/MOS/Synertek >6502-series appnotes, or anything on the uPD765 or R6765. Also, has anyone >got any data on the Fairchild 96LS488? I'd like a scanner. >> Lacking that if you can find SMC9229 or '39 part that does a lot >> of the work for you. > >*checks Google >Obsolete and unobtainium. :( >The datasheet is probably on Bitsavers, but I doubt it's got any real info on >how the chip works internally. Certainly not enough to reimplement it from >off-the-shelf parts. It was never documeted on the fine detail. As to unobtainium, I've managed to find a few over time on XT and early at class FDC boards. Likely there is some NOS available somewhere. Allison From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 23 08:19:52 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:19:52 +0100 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <03e1f29e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I've been reading through the uPD765, R6765 and 8272 FDC datasheets. All of them seem to cover the basics pretty well, but I've got a few quick questions for anyone who's used a 765-type FDC (or any other FDC that behaves in a similar way), or who knows a bit about floppy drive technology: 1) How do you vary the read/write data rate? Some 3.5" formats use MFM at 250kbits/sec, others use MFM at 500kbits/sec. What relation does the WRITECLK input have to the data rate of the MFM-coded signal at the WRITE DATA output? What about the 8MHz master clock? 1a) Can the uPD765 be made to read and write both DSDD and DSHD floppies? If so, how? I know the WD 177x controllers could do it if the 8MHz master clock was increased to 16MHz (an old trick used on Acorn A3000s). Does the same trick work with the 765? 2) How does the FDC decode the data it's been given, based on the data window and the data read from the disc? In FM mode I guess you'd count the cycles within the data window - 2 would be a 0, 4 would be a 1. But what would you do for MFM? 3) What happens when the drive's head picks up a flux transition? Does the the drive generate a single pulse every time the head hits a transition, or does the drive's RD DATA output change state? 4) When writing data, I'd guess that setting WR DATA high would polarise the magnetic coating one way, while setting it low would polarise it the opposite direction. Is this how it works, or does the WR DATA line get pulsed to make the drive put down a flux transition? Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... How's this for diplomacy? Shoot them all! --Kirk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 23 09:13:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:13:33 +0100 Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <017001c5a50d$c8aa77a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > Out of interest, how are you doing the +12V supply rail? Or > don't you need > > one in this particular situation? > > > Jules, > > there are a number of comercially available supplies with a DC input, > ranging from 12V up to 70V depending on the model. > > Jim. Yep, but on a car you might have moments where the voltage drops below 12V (e.g. idling / slow traffic when the heated screen plus headlights are on). I imagine it's tricky to get 12V out of 11V (say) whilst able to deliver enough current to keep a disk spinning (say). Of course I'm sure it's been done, I've just not seen published details of schematics etc. anywhere before! cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 23 10:56:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:56:36 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Floppy controller questions > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:19:52 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi folks, > I've been reading through the uPD765, R6765 and 8272 FDC datasheets. All of >them seem to cover the basics pretty well, but I've got a few quick questions >for anyone who's used a 765-type FDC (or any other FDC that behaves in a >similar way), or who knows a bit about floppy drive technology: > > 1) How do you vary the read/write data rate? Some 3.5" formats use MFM at >250kbits/sec, others use MFM at 500kbits/sec. What relation does the WRITECLK >input have to the data rate of the MFM-coded signal at the WRITE DATA output? >What about the 8MHz master clock? BY prescaling the clock. Master clock drive the internal cpu and after prescaling the various timers (step rate, Head load time, head unload time) Possible useful rates for Clock is 8 and 4mhz. Use 8MHZ for fastest step rates, 4mhz for those drives (like sa400) that need really slow step rates. Also the rate that the master status register is updated is affected due to internal microprocessors speed. Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. The master clock is not synchronous to the write clock though it's easiest to derive both from the same master source. NOTE: like the 179x/177X basic controllers the 765 requires external logic to scale clock rates, write clock rates demux the various drive interface lines and generate the correct levels for driving the disk drive. Additonally the logic does things like Data Clock recovery, Write precompensation timing as those functions required logic faster than was doable in NMOS in 1981. The second generation chips such as 9266 and later WD37C65 integrated most of that logic into the chip in the AT-PC style (subset of full capability). Using a 765 for _all_ data rates and both 3.5"/5.25"/8" floppy interfaces implemented with LSttl fills a S100 board completly. Compupro, IMS and others are examples. Most designs implemented a subset for 8" or 5.25"/3.5" only (jumper selected) with much lower parts cost. A design for 5.25/3.5 floppy (no 5.25 1.2mb) only can be simplified further for greater parts savings. Single sided and double sided are trivial and add nothing to the design. The bulk of the logic is in five groups, bus interface, general clock generation, Write logic (clocks and precomp), read logic (aka seperator) and floppy interface. > 1a) Can the uPD765 be made to read and write both DSDD and DSHD floppies? >If so, how? I know the WD 177x controllers could do it if the 8MHz master >clock was increased to 16MHz (an old trick used on Acorn A3000s). Does the >same trick work with the 765? Yes, it was done on the 1.2MB AT-class machines. Reminder: every PC with rare exceptions used a 765 or a derivitive based on the 765 core. Write clock needs to be scaled to the correct value. OR you can take advantage of the HS lone on some drives so that the FDC can be clocked at 500khz data rate rather than the odd (non sub-multimple of 16mhz) 600/300kHz. Some designs used a 24mhz master clock to derive 8mhz, 4mhz, 1mhz, 600khz, 500khz, 300khz, 250khz, 125khz as needed for the correct data rates. Other timing derived from the master clock is the timing for the precomp shift register. > 2) How does the FDC decode the data it's been given, based on the data >window and the data read from the disc? In FM mode I guess you'd count the >cycles within the data window - 2 would be a 0, 4 would be a 1. But what >would you do for MFM? For MFM is when the transiston occurs rather than how many. Generally the Floppy generates what is by standard expected and the FDC external logic will regenerate data pulses and data window (data window is a read clock). > > 3) What happens when the drive's head picks up a flux transition? Does the >the drive generate a single pulse every time the head hits a transition, or >does the drive's RD DATA output change state? Pulse every transistion. By standard, the singal from the Floppy is a negative going pulse with pull up to 5V. > 4) When writing data, I'd guess that setting WR DATA high would polarise >the magnetic coating one way, while setting it low would polarise it the >opposite direction. Is this how it works, or does the WR DATA line get pulsed >to make the drive put down a flux transition? Pulsed to cause a transistion. FDCs are not transistion polarity selective. The critical parameter is that there was a transistion and when it occurs. The stated FRPI (flux reversals per inch) determine the media density and MFM uses fewer reversals per bit than FM so the density can be higher. In the density scale the 8" SD is the lowest and the 1.44mb 3.5" highest. There is a lot here. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 23 11:28:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:28:41 -0500 Subject: Free : Digital LA210 References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050823121205.02e1c790@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004101c5a7ff$b98cd200$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> la210 or la120?? I could use a printhead or two and a few ribbons if it's an la120 Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 5:14 AM Subject: Free : Digital LA210 > Free a Digital LA210 in the south-west of the Netherlands. > There are also a few boxes of new ribbons. > There are a few more printers that will be thrown out so if you are > looking for anything let me know (also some banana boxes full of > unusued ribbons for various printers). > > Has to be picked up within +/- 2 weeks. > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 23 11:37:47 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:37:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voltage regulators (was Nerding out with termcap) Message-ID: <20050823163747.58675.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I imagine it's tricky to get 12V out of 11V (say) whilst able > to deliver enough current to keep a disk spinning (say). Of > course I'm sure it's been done, I've just not seen published > details of schematics etc. anywhere before! The topology you're looking for is SEPIC, single-ended primary inductance converter. With a SEPIC convertor the input voltage range can overlap the output voltage. Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Tue Aug 23 13:06:47 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:06:47 -1000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1124820407.12435.241308337@webmail.messagingengine.com> Damned! Oh well, thanks anyway. I definitely want to try to get mine running again. It looks like mine has had some upgrades done to it, including: Bigger HD (100mb) More memory (4 Mb Kingston Memory SIMMs, three of 'em!) 80-287 MCP No docking station for it though! X-( On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:14:47 -0500, "Ethan Dicks" said: > I do not, sorry. I do have an ancient Connor 3.5" 30MB drive in it, > but I don't think it has a > diagnostic partition > > -ethan > From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Tue Aug 23 13:09:12 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:09:12 -1000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <00b601c5a7a0$551ce490$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> <00b601c5a7a0$551ce490$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <1124820552.12669.241308976@webmail.messagingengine.com> Sorry Dave, I really wish I knew, but it looks like I can't help you in this respect. On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:05:51 +1200, "Dave Brown" said: > If you can give me any more info to positively ID the specific FDD I > might try to find it- The stash it may be in (not mine-but I have > access) is several hundred floppys-hence the better it can be > identified, the faster and more likely I am to spot it. > DaveB, NZ From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 23 14:35:11 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC jr. and TRS-80 modems Message-ID: Anyone need a PC jr. with the (nonchiclet) keyboard and monitor? They are officially in the way. Cheap. Also, anyone need TRS-80 modems - specifically a Modem 1 and Modem 1B, and new in box Acoustic Coupler? Cheap, also. William "zip is 10512" Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 14:11:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:11:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <03e1f29e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 23, 5 02:19:52 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > I've been reading through the uPD765, R6765 and 8272 FDC datasheets. All of > them seem to cover the basics pretty well, but I've got a few quick questions > for anyone who's used a 765-type FDC (or any other FDC that behaves in a > similar way), or who knows a bit about floppy drive technology: > > 1) How do you vary the read/write data rate? Some 3.5" formats use MFM at > 250kbits/sec, others use MFM at 500kbits/sec. What relation does the WRITECLK > input have to the data rate of the MFM-coded signal at the WRITE DATA output? > What about the 8MHz master clock? >From what I rememebr, the master clock is kept at 8MHz, you change the WrClk depending on the data rate (I can't remember if it _is_ the data rate, or some contant multiple of that). You have to change the RdClk (from the data separator) too, of course). Since the only diference between DD and HD is the data rate, this should solve your question (1a) > > 1a) Can the uPD765 be made to read and write both DSDD and DSHD floppies? > If so, how? I know the WD 177x controllers could do it if the 8MHz master > clock was increased to 16MHz (an old trick used on Acorn A3000s). Does the > same trick work with the 765? > > 2) How does the FDC decode the data it's been given, based on the data > window and the data read from the disc? In FM mode I guess you'd count the > cycles within the data window - 2 would be a 0, 4 would be a 1. But what > would you do for MFM? > > 3) What happens when the drive's head picks up a flux transition? Does the > the drive generate a single pulse every time the head hits a transition, or > does the drive's RD DATA output change state? According to the scehmatics for every floppy drive I've got, there's a constant-width pulse on the Rd Data line for every transition on the disk. The pulse width is set by a 1-shot in the drive. > > 4) When writing data, I'd guess that setting WR DATA high would polarise > the magnetic coating one way, while setting it low would polarise it the > opposite direction. Is this how it works, or does the WR DATA line get pulsed > to make the drive put down a flux transition? A particular edge (I guess it's a falling edge at the interface pin) on the Wr Data line causes a flux transition on the disk. The Wr Data line, suitably buffered, goes to the clock input of a toggle flip-flip (often a '74 with Q/ linked back to D), the outputs of this go to the write head driver transistors. I am suprised there are no floppy drive schematics on bitsavers... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 14:15:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:15:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Aug 23, 5 11:56:36 am Message-ID: > > 1) How do you vary the read/write data rate? Some 3.5" formats use MFM at > >250kbits/sec, others use MFM at 500kbits/sec. What relation does the WRITECLK > >input have to the data rate of the MFM-coded signal at the WRITE DATA output? > >What about the 8MHz master clock? > > BY prescaling the clock. Master clock drive the internal cpu and > after prescaling the various timers (step rate, Head load time, > head unload time) Possible useful rates for Clock is 8 and 4mhz. > Use 8MHZ for fastest step rates, 4mhz for those drives (like sa400) > that need really slow step rates. Also the rate that the master > status register is updated is affected due to internal microprocessors > speed. > > Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the > rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. The master clock > is not synchronous to the write clock though it's easiest to derive > both from the same master source. To avoid confusion. I think it would be clearer to say that Write clock _need not be synchornised_ to the master clock. As you go on to say, there is no problem if Write clock is derrived by dividing down the master clock signal (asusming that will give the data rate you want), in fact just about every floppy controller board does it that way. [... Much good stuff deleted ...] -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 23 15:33:55 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:33:55 -0700 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <04cb621d103382c0c03f1a2808dc131f@bitsavers.org> > I am suprised there are no floppy drive schematics on bitsavers... there are probably a dozen in the service manuals qume, shugart, teac, siemens, for example. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/siemens/FDD100-8_V2.pdf has a pretty good circuit description of a single sided drive. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 23 16:16:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:16:23 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILP000L21QOE281@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:15:48 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > 1) How do you vary the read/write data rate? Some 3.5" formats use MFM at >> >250kbits/sec, others use MFM at 500kbits/sec. What relation does the WRITECLK >> >input have to the data rate of the MFM-coded signal at the WRITE DATA output? >> >What about the 8MHz master clock? >> >> BY prescaling the clock. Master clock drive the internal cpu and >> after prescaling the various timers (step rate, Head load time, >> head unload time) Possible useful rates for Clock is 8 and 4mhz. >> Use 8MHZ for fastest step rates, 4mhz for those drives (like sa400) >> that need really slow step rates. Also the rate that the master >> status register is updated is affected due to internal microprocessors >> speed. >> >> Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the >> rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. The master clock >> is not synchronous to the write clock though it's easiest to derive >> both from the same master source. > >To avoid confusion. I think it would be clearer to say that Write clock >_need not be synchornised_ to the master clock. As you go on to say, >there is no problem if Write clock is derrived by dividing down the >master clock signal (asusming that will give the data rate you want), in >fact just about every floppy controller board does it that way. \ Err, I said that, did I not? Two people seperated by a common language. Allison From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 23 16:47:06 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:47:06 +0100 Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <6951219f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0 at vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Allison wrote: > Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the > rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. Does this apply to both FM and MFM? The datasheet suggests a 500kHz WrClk for FM and 1MHz for MFM mode, which would give a 250kHz FM data rate and a 500kHz MFM data rate. Is that right? And RdWindow from the datasep should cover the read frequency variations, assuming the datasep can handle the variation in mode and frequency. > the logic does things like Data Clock recovery, Write precompensation timing I've heard the term "write precompensation" thrown about a bit - what's the purpose of it? > Using a 765 for _all_ data rates and both 3.5"/5.25"/8" floppy interfaces > implemented with LSttl fills a S100 board completly. That's why SPLDs (GALs) and CPLDs were invented I guess. Squish the address decoder, interface logic, and the data separator into a few LSTTLs and GALs, or just throw everything into a single CPLD :) > Most designs implemented a subset for 8" or 5.25"/3.5" only > (jumper selected) with much lower parts cost. That's what I wanted. I don't have any 8" drives, so adding support for them is pointless. Ideally, I want a board that has a 6502-type interface on one side and a 34-pin IDC connector on the other, with support for most common FM and MFM 3.5" and 5.25" formats. > Yes, it was done on the 1.2MB AT-class machines. Reminder: every PC with > rare exceptions used a 765 or a derivitive based on the 765 core. So I've noticed. I managed to get DMA-mode transfers working, but never managed to get polled-mode or interrupt-mode transfers working. Guess I'll have to learn fast when I start writing code to drive the FDC... > For MFM is when the transiston occurs rather than how many. Generally the > Floppy generates what is by standard expected and the FDC external logic > will regenerate data pulses and data window (data window is a read clock). Right. So with FM the datasep syncs to the high-frequency signal in Gap1, then every time there's a 0 you'll pick up a 0/1/0/1 sequence for each read window, and when there's a 1 you'll pick up a 1/1/1/1 sequence? And with MFM, a 0 after a 0 would be 1/0, a 0 after a 1 would be 0/0 and a 1 would be 0/1? 0/1 taken to mean "first data window was empty, second had a pulse in it". Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... H2SO4 : Help, Help! Searing! Ouch, Ouch, Ouch, Ouch From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 23 17:26:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:26:22 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILP007LL4ZBDF52@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:47:06 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >In message <0ILO00FI3MXS1LM0 at vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > Allison wrote: > >> Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the >> rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. > >Does this apply to both FM and MFM? The datasheet suggests a 500kHz WrClk for >FM and 1MHz for MFM mode, which would give a 250kHz FM data rate and a 500kHz >MFM data rate. Is that right? They are right. MFM requres twice the clock of FM as it's twice the speed. Obvious to me. However the statement is valid as the APPLIED clock is 2X the DATA rate for any mode. One of the confusing issues the fact that when going to MFM (AKA Double Density) you will always run the clock twice that of FM but the ratios of Wclock to data rate is always 2. The MFM pin can be used to select Wclock or Wclock/2 for MFM/FM operation on write and for read it can select clock or other timing dependent control for the read_data and read_data_window recovery. Oh and BTW: those specified data rates would be for 8" drives. For 5.25 they are half that. >And RdWindow from the datasep should cover the read frequency variations, >assuming the datasep can handle the variation in mode and frequency. Assuming you condition the data seperator for the correct mode with MFM output from the FDC. >> the logic does things like Data Clock recovery, Write precompensation timing > >I've heard the term "write precompensation" thrown about a bit - what's the >purpose of it? Simply put when you write flux transistions close together they tend to push apart or attract (depnding on adjacent flux transistions on media causing time distortion. Write precom is a predistortion based on the bit pattern so the recovery windows will be better. More important to MFM than FM. Some drives tend to distort more than other based on head design and write currents used. >> Using a 765 for _all_ data rates and both 3.5"/5.25"/8" floppy interfaces >> implemented with LSttl fills a S100 board completly. > >That's why SPLDs (GALs) and CPLDs were invented I guess. Squish the address >decoder, interface logic, and the data separator into a few LSTTLs and GALs, >or just throw everything into a single CPLD :) Yep, helped design and test a mask programmed gate array that reduced the minimal base PC from about 15 chips to less than 7 while keeping a good data sep and write precomp logic. >> Most designs implemented a subset for 8" or 5.25"/3.5" only >> (jumper selected) with much lower parts cost. > >That's what I wanted. I don't have any 8" drives, so adding support for them >is pointless. Ideally, I want a board that has a 6502-type interface on one >side and a 34-pin IDC connector on the other, with support for most common FM >and MFM 3.5" and 5.25" formats. Well the interface for 3.5 and 5.25 are nearly identical and that made most of that simple. the only real differnce is you will likely run twice the clock rates for 3.5" drive than 5.25". >> Yes, it was done on the 1.2MB AT-class machines. Reminder: every PC with >> rare exceptions used a 765 or a derivitive based on the 765 core. > >So I've noticed. I managed to get DMA-mode transfers working, but never >managed to get polled-mode or interrupt-mode transfers working. Guess I'll >have to learn fast when I start writing code to drive the FDC... Polled mode is tricky as the loop must wait for data to be ready then transfer it. That loop can be as fast as 13us worst case for DD 8" or 1.44mb 3.5". If your slow you get data overrun errors. >> For MFM is when the transiston occurs rather than how many. Generally the >> Floppy generates what is by standard expected and the FDC external logic >> will regenerate data pulses and data window (data window is a read clock). > >Right. So with FM the datasep syncs to the high-frequency signal in Gap1, >then every time there's a 0 you'll pick up a 0/1/0/1 sequence for each read >window, and when there's a 1 you'll pick up a 1/1/1/1 sequence? > >And with MFM, a 0 after a 0 would be 1/0, a 0 after a 1 would be 0/0 and a 1 >would be 0/1? Not always. The rate of transistions and symbols (zero or one) may not be one to one for number transistions. Never quite got MFM in my head as clear as FM. > >0/1 taken to mean "first data window was empty, second had a pulse in it". More like a 0 was a longer window than a one. where the FM the window always has one transistion and if it's a one then there will be a transistion near the middle of the window. The trick with floppies is the drive has a narrow bandwidth and the typical data rate must be in the range of F and 2F where F is some number of flux transistion per unit time (and also realated to per inch at rotation speed). MFM does some long string things to get the number of transistions to stay within F and 2F bit does not have the clear 1:1 symbol corolation of FM. Of course in real life not much of this is needed to assemble a working FDC/Floppy interface. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 17:22:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:22:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <0ILP007LL4ZBDF52@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Aug 23, 5 06:26:22 pm Message-ID: > >> Write clock sets the write data rate and should corrospond to the > >> rate needed for media. Writeclock is 2x data rate. > > > >Does this apply to both FM and MFM? The datasheet suggests a 500kHz WrClk for > >FM and 1MHz for MFM mode, which would give a 250kHz FM data rate and a 500kHz > >MFM data rate. Is that right? > > They are right. MFM requres twice the clock of FM as it's twice the speed. > Obvious to me. However the statement is valid as the APPLIED clock is 2X > the DATA rate for any mode. > > One of the confusing issues the fact that when going to MFM (AKA Double Density) > you will always run the clock twice that of FM but the ratios of Wclock to data > rate is always 2. The MFM pin can be used to select Wclock or Wclock/2 for > MFM/FM operation on write and for read it can select clock or other timing > dependent control for the read_data and read_data_window recovery. > > Oh and BTW: those specified data rates would be for 8" drives. For 5.25 > they are half that. Unlesss you are using HD drives and disks. Those use the same data rates as 8". Also be aware that many HD-capcable 5.25" drives turn at 360 rpm all the time. Which means the data rate if you put a DD (or for that matter an SD) disk in them is 6/5 times what you'd get with that disk in a DD drive (which turns at 300 rpm). You may well need to provide a suitable clock for 300 kbps, for example. [...] > >> Using a 765 for _all_ data rates and both 3.5"/5.25"/8" floppy interfaces > >> implemented with LSttl fills a S100 board completly. > > > >That's why SPLDs (GALs) and CPLDs were invented I guess. Squish the address I always thought they were invented to make my job more painful than it should be ;-) > >decoder, interface logic, and the data separator into a few LSTTLs and GALs, > >or just throw everything into a single CPLD :) > > Yep, helped design and test a mask programmed gate array that reduced the > minimal base PC from about 15 chips to less than 7 while keeping a good > data sep and write precomp logic. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've never seen that sort of desing in any PC I've had the pleasure of working on. I've seen the more modern single-chip disk controllers which contain a 765 'core' and the rest of the logic in a single chip. I've seen a real 765 + one of the single-chip data separators. And I've seen a board of logic (the original IBM controller, for example). But I've never seen a real 765 linked to an ASIC that contains the data seprator. > > >> Most designs implemented a subset for 8" or 5.25"/3.5" only > >> (jumper selected) with much lower parts cost. > > > >That's what I wanted. I don't have any 8" drives, so adding support for them > >is pointless. Ideally, I want a board that has a 6502-type interface on one > >side and a 34-pin IDC connector on the other, with support for most common FM > >and MFM 3.5" and 5.25" formats. > > Well the interface for 3.5 and 5.25 are nearly identical and that made most > of that simple. the only real differnce is you will likely run twice the clock > rates for 3.5" drive than 5.25". Unless you are using the original Sony 3.5" drives, which turn at 600 rpm, and thus use twice the data rate you might expect, 5.25" drives and 3.5? drives use the same data rates for the same modes. HD disks (1.2Mbyte, 1.44Mbyte respectively) in their approriate drives use the same data rates as 8". SD and DD disks are half of those rates _apart from the 360rpm issue I mentioned above). FWIW, 3" are the same as those too (there never was a HD 3" disk AFAIK). -tony From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Aug 23 18:02:00 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:02:00 -0400 Subject: Apple //c available... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050823165601.03ad7bd0@mail.30below.com> Today a lady called the store, asking if she could drop off an "older Macintosh computer," and when she showed up, what she had was an Apple //c w/PS, 9" (I'm guessing green phosphor) monochrome monitor, a Panasonic KXP1091 printer, and a Hotlink //c Printer Interface. It seems to have all (appropriate) cables available, but no software. It looks to be in very good shape - the case is not very yellowed at all for it's age, and no glaring scratches or anything. Very clean system. I can test the computer and monitor at least, as long as test == "Wow - it lights up!" -- if it's got a ROM-based DOS, I could see if it can format a floppy (I do have some DSDD 5.25" disks handy) if someone let's me know the commands... if it needs a system disk, tho, I don't have one, and the best I could do is "Wow - it lights up!" ;-) I don't have a problem parting out the system if someone needs something in particular. I can provide pictures if y'all are willing to wait to tomorrow (if it matters) I'm guesssssing it's a bog-standard //c, tho. I can also provide serial numbers, if that's a big deal. Buyer to pay for shipping and any packing materials that I have to buy to make it go away - I already own packing peanuts & bubblewrap, but if I gotta buy a box or two, *you* gotta buy a box or two... ;-) Priorities will go to: 1) whoever wants the monitor with the system - I can't throw them away anymore, and I don't want a 9" Apple monitor kicking around with no machine to hook it two, and... 2) whoever best describes (IMHO) why you *deserve* such a fine piece of computing history. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 23 18:06:56 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:06:56 -0500 Subject: Game cartridge goes for over $500 Message-ID: <00b301c5a837$5d3fb110$2a406b43@66067007> I have been wanting one of these for awhile now but the price was always around $350 and was hoping by now it would have dropped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8212869674 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 23 18:37:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <200508232337.QAA24635@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" ---snip--- > >>> For MFM is when the transiston occurs rather than how many. Generally the >>> Floppy generates what is by standard expected and the FDC external logic >>> will regenerate data pulses and data window (data window is a read clock). >> >>Right. So with FM the datasep syncs to the high-frequency signal in Gap1, >>then every time there's a 0 you'll pick up a 0/1/0/1 sequence for each read >>window, and when there's a 1 you'll pick up a 1/1/1/1 sequence? >> >>And with MFM, a 0 after a 0 would be 1/0, a 0 after a 1 would be 0/0 and a 1 >>would be 0/1? > >Not always. The rate of transistions and symbols (zero or one) may not be >one to one for number transistions. Never quite got MFM in my head as >clear as FM. > >> >>0/1 taken to mean "first data window was empty, second had a pulse in it". > >More like a 0 was a longer window than a one. where the FM the window >always has one transistion and if it's a one then there will be a >transistion near the middle of the window. > >The trick with floppies is the drive has a narrow bandwidth and the typical >data rate must be in the range of F and 2F where F is some number of flux >transistion per unit time (and also realated to per inch at rotation speed). >MFM does some long string things to get the number of transistions to stay >within F and 2F bit does not have the clear 1:1 symbol corolation of FM. > >Of course in real life not much of this is needed to assemble a working >FDC/Floppy interface. > > >Allison > > Hi My understanding was that both FM and MFM have the same maximum average flux change rate. As I recall, FM was a two cells for each data bit. clock in one and data in the other. MFM was where in the cell the bit was found. If it was early, it was a clock and late, it was the data bit. There were some rules about placing two transitions right next to each other so that a data "1" couldn't be followed by a clock. The frequency of the input clock to the FDC needs to be 2X for the MFM because it has finer timing edges, otherwise the average rate of pulses to the drive is the same. For soft sectored, they had some special marks that violated the rules for where a clock pulse should exist. The controller would watch for the missing clock and then recognize the data to determine what type of marker it was. This located things like header fields and data fields. I hope I got that right. Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Aug 23 18:46:29 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:46:29 +0100 Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <883f2c9f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Also be aware that many HD-capcable 5.25" drives turn at 360 rpm all the > time. Which means the data rate if you put a DD (or for that matter an > SD) disk in them is 6/5 times what you'd get with that disk in a DD drive > (which turns at 300 rpm). You may well need to provide a suitable clock > for 300 kbps, for example. Ick. Time to find a 24MHz crystal oscillator :-/ Divide by 3 gives 8MHz, div24 for 1MHz, div48 for 500kHz, div96 for 250kHz. And none of those are powers of two. Yay. I think I'll just stick to 8MHz and 1M/500k write clocks. > I always thought they were invented to make my job more painful than it > should be ;-) Only if you're trying to reverse engineer something :) I hate ASICs too, unless they're fully documented down to gate level in some way. The CBM 1541 is a great example... Version 1 was all TTL, v2 had an ASIC to do the GCR coding, v3 had an ASIC that did the GCR *and* analogue interfacing IIRC. Ick. I still need to deal with the "only 16uS to grab a byte of data" issue. That's going to be a major pain when the CPU is running at 2MHz... Thankfully IDE/ATA is fairly speed independent. I suppose I could use interrupt mode, and hijack the INT (or maybe the NMI) vector whenever the FDD is being accessed. Isn't learning fun? > data separators. And I've seen a board of logic (the original IBM > controller, for example). But I've never seen a real 765 linked to an I really should try and get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference manuals at some point. > Unless you are using the original Sony 3.5" drives, which turn at 600 > rpm, and thus use twice the data rate you might expect, 5.25" drives and > 3.5? drives use the same data rates for the same modes. All new-ish PC-type floppy drives here. I don't think I've got any of the original Sony drives - most of mine are MFD920s, with one or two MFD520s (I prefer the 520s - they're jumperable for DS0 and ideal for RiscPCs). Some of the Citizen drives that Acorn used are pretty well made, too - I've never seen one that didn't work properly. Well, except for the one that some oik (not me) shoved a mini-CD into. > HD disks (1.2Mbyte, 1.44Mbyte respectively) in their approriate drives > use the same data rates as 8". SD and DD disks are half of those rates > _apart from the 360rpm issue I mentioned above). Easy way to solve the 360rpm issue: Find the SPEED_SEL pin on the motor controller, lift the pin then wire it to the edge connector. I > FWIW, 3" are the same as those too (there never was a HD 3" disk AFAIK). Heh. Amstrad 3" "indestructable" floppies. Those bring back some memories... Mostly dealing with disintegrating drive belts. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I'm spending a year dead for Tax Purposes From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 18:39:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:39:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <883f2c9f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 24, 5 00:46:29 am Message-ID: > > In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Also be aware that many HD-capcable 5.25" drives turn at 360 rpm all th= > e=20 > > time. Which means the data rate if you put a DD (or for that matter an=20 > > SD) disk in them is 6/5 times what you'd get with that disk in a DD dri= > ve=20 > > (which turns at 300 rpm). You may well need to provide a suitable clock= > =20 > > for 300 kbps, for example. > > Ick. Time to find a 24MHz crystal oscillator :-/ Indeed. As you've probably spotted by now, some of the all-in-one-chip PC disk controllers need a 24MHz clock for just that reason. > Divide by 3 gives 8MHz, div24 for 1MHz, div48 for 500kHz, div96 for 250kH= > z. There's a well-known divide-by-3 circuit using a couple of JKs... > And none of those are powers of two. Yay. I think I'll just stick to 8MHz= > and > 1M/500k write clocks. > > > I always thought they were invented to make my job more painful than it= > =20 > > should be ;-) > > Only if you're trying to reverse engineer something :) Or repair it. I have a lot more luck finding an obscure TTL part than finding an ASIC, or the right CPLD + the data to program into it + somebody who can actually program the thing > I hate ASICs too, unless they're fully documented down to gate level in s= > ome > way. The CBM 1541 is a great example... Version 1 was all TTL, v2 had an = > ASIC > to do the GCR coding, v3 had an ASIC that did the GCR *and* analogue > interfacing IIRC. Ick. I found the Sams repair manual for the 1541 many years ago in a second-hand bookshop in Bristol. Of course I bought it. It covers 3 versions of the drive (which they call the 1540, 1541, 1542, although AFAIK those names are not all official). There's some data on the ASIC (which replaces a load of TTL + a ROM in the original version. I don't recall there being any analagoue ASIC stuff in those drives, but IIRC the 1570 and 1571 do have a hybrid circuit that's part of the analogue side, and is custom/unrepairable. > > data separators. And I've seen a board of logic (the original IBM=20 > > controller, for example). But I've never seen a real 765 linked to an=20 > > I really should try and get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference manu= > als > at some point. Be warned that later versions of the _PC_ technical manual don't contain data on the I/O cards. IBM moved that into the Options and Adapters Technical Reference..... > > > Unless you are using the original Sony 3.5" drives, which turn at 600=20 > > rpm, and thus use twice the data rate you might expect, 5.25" drives an= > d=20 > > 3.5=A3 drives use the same data rates for the same modes. > > All new-ish PC-type floppy drives here. I don't think I've got any of the > original Sony drives - most of mine are MFD920s, with one or two MFD520s = > (I I would be suprised if you had any. The units I am thinking of are twice the height of a PC drive and have a 26 pin interface connector. There was a later one, could be half-helght (although I've only ever seen it with a full-height paneL), and a 34 pin connector, which could be combined power and data (solder-link selectable). They were mainly used in HP machines and drive units. although Apricot used them too at one point. If you support the HD data rates, then you can use these drives, at least with DD disks. > > HD disks (1.2Mbyte, 1.44Mbyte respectively) in their approriate drives=20 > > use the same data rates as 8". SD and DD disks are half of those rates=20 > > _apart from the 360rpm issue I mentioned above). > > Easy way to solve the 360rpm issue: Find the SPEED_SEL pin on the motor > controller, lift the pin then wire it to the edge connector. There may even be a jumper on the drive logic board for this. Problem is finding it ;-) > > I > > > FWIW, 3" are the same as those too (there never was a HD 3" disk AFAIK). > > Heh. Amstrad 3" "indestructable" floppies. Those bring back some memories= > ... > Mostly dealing with disintegrating drive belts. Actually, I think the 3" disk is mechancially better than the 3.5" one. I've never had an Amstrad drive, I used the Hitachi ones (I even have the offiical service manual for the double-head version), which had a direct-drive spindle motor. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 23 20:53:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:53:31 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILP004N8EKHJER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:46:29 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> Also be aware that many HD-capcable 5.25" drives turn at 360 rpm all the >> time. Which means the data rate if you put a DD (or for that matter an >> SD) disk in them is 6/5 times what you'd get with that disk in a DD drive >> (which turns at 300 rpm). You may well need to provide a suitable clock >> for 300 kbps, for example. > >Ick. Time to find a 24MHz crystal oscillator :-/ >Divide by 3 gives 8MHz, div24 for 1MHz, div48 for 500kHz, div96 for 250kHz. >And none of those are powers of two. Yay. I think I'll just stick to 8MHz and >1M/500k write clocks. Unless you use a drive that spins faster then the 500khz rate is fine. >I still need to deal with the "only 16uS to grab a byte of data" issue. >That's going to be a major pain when the CPU is running at 2MHz... Thankfully >IDE/ATA is fairly speed independent. >I suppose I could use interrupt mode, and hijack the INT (or maybe the NMI) >vector whenever the FDD is being accessed. Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). >Isn't learning fun? Beats boredom by miles. ;) >> data separators. And I've seen a board of logic (the original IBM >> controller, for example). But I've never seen a real 765 linked to an > >I really should try and get a copy of the IBM PC Technical Reference manuals >at some point. Oh the PC implmentations are generally the worst as a reference, they really represent a stripped to bare minimum specific for PC encironment. With just a bit more effort you can do something far more flexible than that. Or a S100 board like the Compupro Disk1A. I've done this at enough times to loose count on S100, multibus, ISA8 and 16 Z80 raw cpu bus (single board), 8085 single board, 8088 single board and even with an 8749. The Floppy side is largely done for you of you look at the app nots, existing board manuals and that one site some had a pointer to. > >> Unless you are using the original Sony 3.5" drives, which turn at 600 >> rpm, and thus use twice the data rate you might expect, 5.25" drives and >> 3.5? drives use the same data rates for the same modes. > >All new-ish PC-type floppy drives here. I don't think I've got any of the >original Sony drives - most of mine are MFD920s, with one or two MFD520s (I >prefer the 520s - they're jumperable for DS0 and ideal for RiscPCs). Some of >the Citizen drives that Acorn used are pretty well made, too - I've never >seen one that didn't work properly. Well, except for the one that some oik >(not me) shoved a mini-CD into. The MFD520 and 920 is good and for 5.25 I really like the teac FD55GFR as that will do most 40 and 80 track reads including 1.2m. If you intend to write honest 360k formats with 5.25" drives a FD55B is a good choice. There are other 5.25 drive that would make goood equivelents to both teacs. >> HD disks (1.2Mbyte, 1.44Mbyte respectively) in their approriate drives >> use the same data rates as 8". SD and DD disks are half of those rates >> _apart from the 360rpm issue I mentioned above). > >Easy way to solve the 360rpm issue: Find the SPEED_SEL pin on the motor >controller, lift the pin then wire it to the edge connector. Yes, saves pain. >> FWIW, 3" are the same as those too (there never was a HD 3" disk AFAIK). > >Heh. Amstrad 3" "indestructable" floppies. Those bring back some memories... >Mostly dealing with disintegrating drive belts. Only a problem if your doing them too. ;) Allison From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 23 21:16:23 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:16:23 -0400 Subject: Game cartridge goes for over $500 In-Reply-To: <00b301c5a837$5d3fb110$2a406b43@66067007> References: <00b301c5a837$5d3fb110$2a406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <430BD877.8070601@atarimuseum.com> That is a little surprising... Battlesphere is a multiplayer space combat game for the Atari Jaguar 64 platform, it didn't make it out in time for Atari to publish while the Atari Jaguar 64 was being sold... the software team developing it, continued its work and self published it a few years back in a very limited run and then did a few special editions and has put a copy or two up onto Ebay every once in a while... they make the rounds pretty often, so usually a price of $250 to sometimes $300 has been common for these games, but for $500+, thats a high price, so someone was really dying to get a copy... Battlesphere truly shows up what the Jaguar could do with graphics, sound and networked - multiplayer gameplay... its truly a benchmark setting game for the Jag64 and one of the best titles written along next to titles like Alien Vs Predator, Tempest 2000, and Iron Soldier. Curt Keys wrote: > I have been wanting one of these for awhile now but the price was > always around $350 and was hoping by now it would have dropped. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8212869674 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005 From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 23 21:22:53 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:22:53 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <20050824022252.WYAR6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >That's what I wanted. I don't have any 8" drives, so adding support for them >is pointless. Ideally, I want a board that has a 6502-type interface on one >side and a 34-pin IDC connector on the other, with support for most common FM >and MFM 3.5" and 5.25" formats. I did a fairly simple 765 based controller in my D6809 which does 5.25" DD disks (should work ok with 3.5" DD) - it has a 6809 bus on one side and a 34-pin connector on the other. It was designed mid-80's, and uses a 765, 9216, LS175, LS153, LS161, LS174, LS139 as well as floppy bus drivers/receivers, and a couple of LS04 gates and one LS00 gate borrowed from elsewhere in the system (The whole computer was one big wire-wrap board - you can see it on my site). I don't pretend it's the most efficient design, but it was (relatively) low parts count and worked well for me - you are welcome to it if you want it. >I managed to get DMA-mode transfers working, but never managed to get polled- >mode or interrupt-mode transfers working. Guess I'll have to learn fast when >I start writing code to drive the FDC... I did polled drivers on the 09 and it worked well. One thing I did find was that I had to connect a select to the TC pin so that I could pulse it to end a transfer - I did not find a way to cleanly end a transfer in polled mode without TC. I can give you the 6809 driver code as well if you want it. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Aug 23 23:36:17 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:36:17 -0700 Subject: Mystery LSI-11 board Message-ID: <430BF941.9020302@theriver.com> I got a LSI-11 (11/03) the other day that is pretty much intact, but will need some work. Included with the chassis, backplane and power-supply, were the following cards: Top LSI-11 CPU M7264 <----------> M7940 | DSD 1140-AA floppy ctl M7940 (aux1) | M7940 (aux 2) M7941 | M7944 (5) M7944 (1) | M7944 (2) M7944 (3) | M7944 (4) EMPTY | M7944 (bank) <------------------ Mystery/Terminator??----> Bottom I do believe the mystery card at the bottom is in fact a terminator/bootstrap?? (TEV11/REV11) But there are no numbers on the handles or on the board. The plastic handles are grey and are DEC branded. The board has a 40 pin connector. Having never seen a TEV11 or aa REV11 and finding little by googling, I'm wonder if anybody out there can enlighten me!! I took a picture and excuse me for the size, but I wanted to include as much detail as possible! http://personal.riverusers.com/~dponsford/qbus.html I also believe the DSD board is a floppy controller.However what looks like the model # on the side of the board: A/1140-6A a small ehite label on the 28 pin eeprom N82S 100I 7851. The controller has a fifty pin connector. Does this look familiar to anybody Thanks in advance for any help!! Tom From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 24 01:27:04 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:27:04 -0700 Subject: Fwd: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! Message-ID: <98c031e244c19a3cf9248bf9e3483959@bitsavers.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Patrick Jankowiak > Date: August 23, 2005 7:25:57 PM PDT > To: General at robot.net, Discussion at robot.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Cc: Al Kossow > Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be > junked! > > I hate to do this but someone please come get this, there is no space > and it will have to be scrapped if not rescued. It's for a pdp8i and > gives you about 700K more "RAM" memory on top of the 4 or 8K of core > you already have. > > This has to go this weekend or next at the latest, time is of the > utmost! > > Please follow the link and see > > "1969 BSL model 7118 Disk-Based Core Memory Expansion for pdp8 " > > http://rawfire.torche.com/~opcom/ > > contact 214-763-4764 > > thanks, > Patrick > Dallas Texas > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 24 02:09:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple //c available... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050823165601.03ad7bd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I can test the computer and monitor at least, as long as test == "Wow - it > lights up!" -- if it's got a ROM-based DOS, I could see if it can format a > floppy (I do have some DSDD 5.25" disks handy) if someone let's me know the > commands... if it needs a system disk, tho, I don't have one, and the best > I could do is "Wow - it lights up!" ;-) Try pressing CTRL-RESET-OpenApple-ClosedApple to run a self-test. The response you get back should be something like "System OK". If not then it has a problem. Most likely it is fine. That basically tests the memory and MMU, and maybe some other stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctech at retro.co.za Wed Aug 24 05:52:36 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:52:36 +0200 Subject: Electronics Today International back issues In-Reply-To: <200508160250.j7G2oKZP093031@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508160250.j7G2oKZP093031@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050824124330.041abde8@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all I got hold of a Microbox II (6809 single board computer) a while ago and I'm slowly working on getting it working. I need copies of the articles on this design, which appeared in ETI from December 1985 to April 1986 -- I already have the December and March issues but would like to get hold of the other three. So, who has old ETI's stashed somewhere? And facilities to scan, ideally? I also need a WD1770 Floppy controller and the only source I know of is a BBC Model B. I have three BBCs in the container somewhere, but I don't know whether they're the right thing, and even if they were, I'd have to think long and hard before stripping one. And I need a WD2123 UART. These things are scare but I'm sure someone has a few stashed somewhere :-) W From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Wed Aug 24 05:57:41 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:57:41 -0400 Subject: Electronics Today International back issues In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050824124330.041abde8@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200508160250.j7G2oKZP093031@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20050824124330.041abde8@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050824065521.01cb2cb0@pop.cogeco.ca> At 06:52 AM 8/24/2005, you wrote: >Hi all > >I got hold of a Microbox II (6809 single board computer) >a while ago and I'm slowly working on getting it working. > >I need copies of the articles on this design, which appeared >in ETI from December 1985 to April 1986 -- I already have >the December and March issues but would like to get hold of >the other three. > >So, who has old ETI's stashed somewhere? And facilities to >scan, ideally? > > >W > > > I just turned over my collection of Electronics Today to > Sellam, check with him. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 24 05:58:18 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:58:18 +0100 Subject: Floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <0ILP004N8EKHJER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0ILP004N8EKHJER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: In message <0ILP004N8EKHJER2 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Allison wrote: > Unless you use a drive that spins faster then the 500khz rate is fine. If it doesn't, I'll speedhack it to run at 300. The only drive I've got that runs at 360 is a Y-E Data YD-380B. It completely ignores the speed select pin, even though it's wired to "something" on the PCB... There are no visible jumpers anywhere, besides DS0 and DS1. > Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. > Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). Eek! Interrupt-mode it is then. > Or a S100 board like the Compupro Disk1A. Time to google for a Disk1A manual (and hope that it includes schematics)... > I've done this at enough times to loose count on S100, multibus, ISA8 and 16 > Z80 raw cpu bus (single board), 8085 single board, 8088 single board and > even with an 8749. The Floppy side is largely done for you of you look at > the app nots, existing board manuals and that one site some had a pointer to. I don't have any of the NEC 765 appnotes... I've got the i8272, uPD765 and R6765 datasheets, but not the matching appnotes. Same applies to the NEC V20 CPU I've got lying around - I've got the data, but not the hardware and software manuals. > The MFD520 and 920 is good and for 5.25 I really like the teac FD55GFR > as that will do most 40 and 80 track reads including 1.2m. If you intend > to write honest 360k formats with 5.25" drives a FD55B is a good choice. > There are other 5.25 drive that would make goood equivelents to both teacs. I wouldn't mind getting an FD55, actually. Just that they don't seem to appear on ebay very much these days. > >Easy way to solve the 360rpm issue: Find the SPEED_SEL pin on the motor > >controller, lift the pin then wire it to the edge connector. > > Yes, saves pain. It seems this drive is jumperable. I found three jumpers (actually 0R links) next to the speed-select wire... Now if I could just find out which one locked the drive at 300RPM (or made it pay attention to the edge connector). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook REALITY.SYS corrupted: reboot universe? From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 24 06:17:42 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:17:42 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <20050824111741.VWJY11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Time to google for a Disk1A manual (and hope that it includes schematics)... I have the Disk1A manual on my site - and it does include schematics. Click on the "S100" header to S-100 machines, which will take you to a list of S-100 cards - the Disk1A (photo and manual) is there. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 24 08:08:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:08:38 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILQ007PJ9TIPWI3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:22:53 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>That's what I wanted. I don't have any 8" drives, so adding support for them >>is pointless. Ideally, I want a board that has a 6502-type interface on one >>side and a 34-pin IDC connector on the other, with support for most common FM >>and MFM 3.5" and 5.25" formats. > >>I managed to get DMA-mode transfers working, but never managed to get polled- >>mode or interrupt-mode transfers working. Guess I'll have to learn fast when >>I start writing code to drive the FDC... > >I did polled drivers on the 09 and it worked well. One thing I did find was >that I had to connect a select to the TC pin so that I could pulse it to end >a transfer - I did not find a way to cleanly end a transfer in polled mode >without TC. I can give you the 6809 driver code as well if you want it. There is a way to stop the transfer with out TC. When programming the FDC command bytes for single sector transfer simply put that sector in as N and also as EOT. Since the FDC stops reading at EOT it will stop after one sector. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 24 09:03:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:03:20 -0400 Subject: Mystery LSI-11 board References: <430BF941.9020302@theriver.com> Message-ID: <17164.32296.790813.464181@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "tom" == tom ponsford writes: tom> I got a LSI-11 (11/03) the other day that is pretty much intact, tom> but will need some work. Included with the chassis, backplane tom> and power-supply, were the following cards ... tom> I do believe the mystery card at the bottom is in fact a tom> terminator/bootstrap?? (TEV11/REV11) But there are no numbers on tom> the handles or on the board. The plastic handles are grey and tom> are DEC branded. The board has a 40 pin connector. Having never tom> seen a TEV11 or aa REV11 and finding little by googling, I'm tom> wonder if anybody out there can enlighten me!! tom> I took a picture and excuse me for the size, but I wanted to tom> include as much detail as possible! tom> http://personal.riverusers.com/~dponsford/qbus.html You have bad html (local filename reference for the photos); pasting the name part into the rest of the URL gets the pictures. That's definitely not a DEC board. For one thing, a Qbus board wouldn't have gray handles, it would have maroon handles (that's what the M in board part numbers refers to). Second, the rats nest of wires on the back goes way beyond anything that DEC would ship (far too many wires) and the "slap them anywhere" routing is much sloppier than the rework I have seen coming out of DEC. It's just barely possible you might see this in a prototype, though almost always prototypes would be done a lot more cleanly than that. But for sure you would not see that in a production board. paul From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 24 09:09:02 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:09:02 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <20050824140901.XWBC11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>I did polled drivers on the 09 and it worked well. One thing I did find was >>that I had to connect a select to the TC pin so that I could pulse it to end >>a transfer - I did not find a way to cleanly end a transfer in polled mode >>without TC. I can give you the 6809 driver code as well if you want it. > >There is a way to stop the transfer with out TC. When programming the FDC >command bytes for single sector transfer simply put that sector in as N and >also as EOT. Since the FDC stops reading at EOT it will stop after one sector. Now that I know the 765 better - makes perfect sense. This is a good example of the problems I had with the NEC documention when I originally wrote the 6809 driver (mid 80's - my first experience with the 765). There are very few references to polled transfers. Under "READ DATA", the datasheet says: "After completion of the read operation from the current sector, the Sector Number is incremented by one and the data from the next sector is read and output on the data bus. This continued read function is called a Multi-Sector Read Operation. The Read Data command may be terminated by the receipt of a Terminal Count signal. ..." Write Data has a similar statement. There is no mention whatever of the EOT parameter. The use of TC is the only means described under the READ DATA and WRITE DATA commands to terminate the transfer. There only mention of EOT is a definition in a different section, which reads: "EOT stands for the final Sector number on a Cylinder. During Read or Write operation FDC will stop data transfer after a sector is equal to EOT". I interpreted this as "this should always have the highest sector number on the cylinder" and was used only to guarantee that multi-sector reads stop at the end of the track (which I thought would be an error condition). So I tried what the docs indicated, hit TC and it worked. When I did the 765 drivers in ImageDisk, they use DMA, and TC is generated automaticlly by the DMA controller - I remember thinking "ah .. how nice - this is how they really intended the system to work" - It always bothered me that I needed an extra select to use it in polled mode. Thanks - this cleans up another little bit of the picture. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 24 09:12:11 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:12:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Norsk Data docu In-Reply-To: <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> <000e01c59fa6$62c7b590$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <9504.62.177.191.201.1124892731.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Available for the cost of shipping (from the Netherlands), some Norsk Data material. Weight of all together is approx. 1Kg (2.2 lbs) Diagrams of the ND-100 cpu,floppy controller, 10Mb disk interface ND-500 microprogram Guide ND-500 compact Illustrated parts guide ND-500 test microprogram descriptions. Regards, Ed From vrs at msn.com Wed Aug 24 09:57:50 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:57:50 -0700 Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! References: <98c031e244c19a3cf9248bf9e3483959@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" > > Please follow the link and see > > > > "1969 BSL model 7118 Disk-Based Core Memory Expansion for pdp8 " > > > > http://rawfire.torche.com/~opcom/ > > > > contact 214-763-4764 > > > > thanks, > > Patrick > > Dallas Texas Cool! Unfortunately, I am nowhere near Dallas :-(. Vince From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 24 10:51:14 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:51:14 -0700 Subject: Norsk Data docu Message-ID: > Available for the cost of shipping (from the Netherlands) I would like to get these from you to add to the archives on bitsavers. I currently have nothing on Norsk Data. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 24 11:23:25 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:23:25 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILQ000E5IU456O3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:09:02 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Now that I know the 765 better - makes perfect sense. This is a good example >of the problems I had with the NEC documention when I originally wrote the 6809 >driver (mid 80's - my first experience with the 765). There are very few >references to polled transfers. Under "READ DATA", the datasheet says: > >"After completion of the read operation from the current sector, the Sector Number >is incremented by one and the data from the next sector is read and output on the >data bus. This continued read function is called a Multi-Sector Read Operation. The >Read Data command may be terminated by the receipt of a Terminal Count signal. ..." Well I have a copy of the original jinglish manuals from my days as product engineer. After youve worked with a potload of the japanese/english translations your own English becomes polluted. Your then speak missing small bits in sentence. Sorry to those japanese speakers but, I was there and suffered. Anywho, there were other cultural things that made etting answers to ambigious or thinly worded explanations difficult. Often I'd end up in the lab testing "just to see what was the case.". As it turns out many engineers managed by inference to sort it out or by simply hacking (try and see) methodology and the Compupro DISK1 (and 1A) while DMA didn't use TC. Instead the driver programmed N and EOT to the sector desired. FYI: Another trick. Externall it's possible to tell DMA or other logic if the transfer will be read or write without using a IO port. The Write_enable (pin25) line to the drive can also be used to condition the IO direction. Compupro used this for their DMA hardware for set read from or write to memory. I'd figured this out when talking to RCA about 1802 hich has a DMA read and DMA write line. Using the WE line to conditionally gate one or the other made doing 1802 floppy DMA less complex. I may add that working with 765 you find thses and other things out. If you work with 179X or 177X there are a similar set of "things you learn" that allow you to exploit the device. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 24 11:22:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electronics Today International back issues In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050824065521.01cb2cb0@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > I just turned over my collection of Electronics Today to > > Sellam, check with him. Yep, and I just received them (thanks Charlie!) I'll go through and see if I've got what Wouter needs. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 24 11:32:58 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:32:58 -0700 Subject: DataDisc F-series service manual Message-ID: <9b3e30c7e6b24bc153f0c5773c83212c@bitsavers.org> I've just put the service manual up for the disc assembly that Patrick wants to get rid of on http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dataDisc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 24 11:36:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <200508241636.JAA25076@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions >> From: Philip Pemberton >> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:46:29 +0100 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>In message >> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>> Also be aware that many HD-capcable 5.25" drives turn at 360 rpm all the >>> time. Which means the data rate if you put a DD (or for that matter an >>> SD) disk in them is 6/5 times what you'd get with that disk in a DD drive >>> (which turns at 300 rpm). You may well need to provide a suitable clock >>> for 300 kbps, for example. >> >>Ick. Time to find a 24MHz crystal oscillator :-/ >>Divide by 3 gives 8MHz, div24 for 1MHz, div48 for 500kHz, div96 for 250kHz. >>And none of those are powers of two. Yay. I think I'll just stick to 8MHz and >>1M/500k write clocks. > >Unless you use a drive that spins faster then the 500khz rate is fine. > >>I still need to deal with the "only 16uS to grab a byte of data" issue. >>That's going to be a major pain when the CPU is running at 2MHz... Thankfully >>IDE/ATA is fairly speed independent. >>I suppose I could use interrupt mode, and hijack the INT (or maybe the NMI) >>vector whenever the FDD is being accessed. > >Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. >Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). > >>Isn't learning fun? ---snip--- Hi One thing to consider is that you can unroll the loop and just fetch or write data and increment the pointer. Even on an 8080, this is reasonably fast. If you know the speed of the processor and the speed of the controller, you don't have to check the data ready bit every time. You just need to do it often enough to resync things. Another trick, if you are using a loop, is that you can make the loop partially unrolled. You only modify the counter once every few data read or writes. You do, say, 4 bytes at a time. Any odd amounts needed can be unrolled. Using any one of these tricks will get you in the range. On a PC, the main issue is that you need to shut down all interrupts and be aware of refresh if it uses memory cycles. On a processor that I was playing with, I found that the processor was too fast for the FDC chip. It was only running a 4 MHz instruction speed. Dwight From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Aug 24 11:57:58 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:57:58 -0700 Subject: Mystery LSI-11 board In-Reply-To: <17164.32296.790813.464181@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <430BF941.9020302@theriver.com> <17164.32296.790813.464181@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <430CA716.4030609@theriver.com> Paul Koning wrote: >> You have bad html (local filename reference for the photos); pasting >> the name part into the rest of the URL gets the pictures. Oops Sorry a fixed url: http://personal.riverusers.com/~dponsford/qbus/index.html >> That's definitely not a DEC board. For one thing, a Qbus board >> wouldn't have gray handles, it would have maroon handles (that's what >> the M in board part numbers refers to). Well this is a qbus board as it came out of a qbus chassis and the grey handles do have DEC on them! But I agree I think this may be a third party/prototype board! However there is an assembly number and other production artifacts that lead me to believe this is not a prototype board in the strict sense. My first instinct with the mystery board was that it was a modified production board rather than a prototype There is a 24 pin gold-colored chip in the center of the board, labeled : IM5200CJG i 7608 and in the lower corner FPLA-1 The CPU board does have the 5th socket filled with the FIS/CIS ( 23-003B5) option, I believe some of the operation of the board has to be a sort of termination like a TEV11, which is required for the LSI-11 to operate, and the location, the last board on the qbus, is the obvious location for the termination board. Having no photo of the TEV11 or REV11, I though this may be one! >> Second, the rats nest of wires on the back goes way beyond anything >> that DEC would ship (far too many wires) and the "slap them anywhere" >> routing is much sloppier than the rework I have seen coming out of >> DEC. It's just barely possible you might see this in a prototype, >> though almost always prototypes would be done a lot more cleanly than >> that. But for sure you would not see that in a production board. It could be a prototype board, but I do have a few circa 1974 DEC unibus boards that do have as much as (or more) wirewrapping! As this computer was from the U of A, it might have been used in some intructional/development program. The chassis is not a DEC product, more of an OEM/ development project. The front of the computer says: LSI-11 MICROCOMPUTER Microprocessor Development System University of Arizona with a few micro-toggle swirches (LTC on/off, Enable/Halt and Initialize) as well as small lights (Running, halt, D.C. On, Enable ) . Cheers Tom > > > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 24 12:34:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:34:26 -0400 Subject: Mystery LSI-11 board References: <430BF941.9020302@theriver.com> <17164.32296.790813.464181@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <430CA716.4030609@theriver.com> Message-ID: <17164.44962.484728.1338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "tom" == tom ponsford writes: >>> That's definitely not a DEC board. For one thing, a Qbus board >>> wouldn't have gray handles, it would have maroon handles (that's >>> what the M in board part numbers refers to). tom> Well this is a qbus board as it came out of a qbus chassis and tom> the grey handles do have DEC on them! But I agree I think this tom> may be a third party/prototype board! However there is an tom> assembly number and other production artifacts that lead me to tom> believe this is not a prototype board in the strict sense. One possibility is that it's a third party board with handles manufactured by DEC attached to them. DEC sold those handles separately, and you could just attach them to your own board... Something to check is whether there's a module number on them. Standard DEC practice is to stamp the module number on the handle. Module numbers are normally a letter plus 3 or 4 digits; the letter matches the color: M-maroon, W-white, G-green, R-red, and probably others. M were the later ones, with ICs on them (as opposed to R which have either discrete transistors or, maybe, small scale TTL). So the M series module codes includes large modules with cast metal handles, as used in big VAXen. Those aren't actually maroon in color (more like grayish metal), but they still have the ID on the handle. Yet another thing to look for: DEC boards have a DEC logo ("digital" in 7 blocks -- unless it's quite old) somewhere on the board, almost certainly near the edge. paul From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Aug 24 12:56:07 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:56:07 +0100 Subject: Free Magazines. was: Electronics Today International back issues In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050824124330.041abde8@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200508160250.j7G2oKZP093031@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20050824124330.041abde8@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050824184253.04b14518@pop.freeserve.net> At 11:52 24/08/2005, Wouter wrote: >So, who has old ETI's stashed somewhere? And facilities to >scan, ideally? On the subject of magazines, I have a large pile of magazines dating back to the 70's-mid 80's, mostly Hobby Electronics right from the start, quite a lot of ETI (but I don't think as late as wanted here, box is buried behind a live server so will take time to access and check) also a lot of Practical Electronics including, if I still have them, many dating back to the '60s. Lots of odds and ends too as to be expected, plus I think some Railway Modeling mags to stray off topic.. If anybody collects mags and can give them a good home, then the space freed up will come in useful! I'd rather not pick through them for odd issues so anybody willing to collect several boxes (I'm in Salford, UK) gets them! (Also available free to anybody who wants them: IBM XT with floppy changers, various Wyse terminals & a Wyse monochrome VGA monitor, a couple of epson impact printers, several unremarkable PC base units, metal framed cabin bed..) Rob. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 24 13:23:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:23:46 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILQ00DWIOEN38F4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. >>Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). >> >>>Isn't learning fun? >---snip--- > >Hi > One thing to consider is that you can unroll the loop and just >fetch or write data and increment the pointer. Even on an >8080, this is reasonably fast. If you know the speed of the >processor and the speed of the controller, you don't have to >check the data ready bit every time. You just need to do it >often enough to resync things. Another trick, if you are >using a loop, is that you can make the loop partially unrolled. >You only modify the counter once every few data read or writes. >You do, say, 4 bytes at a time. Any odd amounts needed can >be unrolled. > Using any one of these tricks will get you in the range. >On a PC, the main issue is that you need to shut down all >interrupts and be aware of refresh if it uses memory cycles. > On a processor that I was playing with, I found that the >processor was too fast for the FDC chip. It was only >running a 4 MHz instruction speed. >Dwight You can do that with care. One oddity is the 765 will assert DRQ (dma request) before the data is in the buffer and a .5uS delay is needed on DRQ for ultra fast DMA systems. I found this out with 4mhz z80 using processor stall: read the DMA input port, IF DRQ not TRUE then assert CPU WAIT/ until true. Thsi is fast enough as it's waiting on an IN A,DMAport and will grab the buffer as soon as DRQ is true. If you can have the CPU wait on DRQ the loop is very tight. For Z80/8080: ugly 8080 flavor for transfers up to 1KB: ; HL is memory pointer ; A is temp ; B is transfer length *4 ; Zero flag affected by DCR B DMAIO: IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted mov M,A INX H ; HL<-HL+1 IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted mov M,A INX H ; HL<-HL+1 IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted mov M,A INX H ; HL<-HL+1 IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted mov M,A INX H ; HL<-HL+1 DCR B ; B is dmatransfer down counter JNZ DMAIO ; loop if not Zero, more to go. ... It's 35 cycles in z80 for the slowest part of the loop and 34 for 8080. Z80 IN port is 11cy! Why four bytes pwer transfer? one it makes doing 512 or 1024 bytes per sector with a 8bit counter (lower overhead) and doing a 765 format only requires 4 bytes per sector (C, H, R and N)! A 2mhz 8080 will actually run this for 8" DD (13us case) successfuly even though the last leg of the loop is 17.5us as you have 16us +13us worst case before an overrun occurs and the next step in the loop is not as slow. Note waits for refresh will blow the works and Z80s systems that use processor refresh are not likely to behave well if the FDC hangs (no disk or blank inserted) too long. A 6502 can easily do it. >From a system perspective I prefer DMA. I like to free up CPU cycles to do "stuff" and make hardware do repeatitive stuff like basic transfers. However the DMA does not have \ to be complex or even a LSI (8257 or 8237). A simple gating logic plus an upcounter of sufficient length is enough and it can even be to a fixed address (host buffer in the case of CP/M deblocking). Things like background tasks are then easier to implement to utilize otherwise wasted IO loops (wait for keyboard!). The most obvious interrupt driven background tasks to implement are printer output buffering or modem input buffering. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 13:30:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:30:33 -0500 Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! In-Reply-To: References: <98c031e244c19a3cf9248bf9e3483959@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 8/24/05, vrs wrote: > Cool! Unfortunately, I am nowhere near Dallas :-(. Neither am I. :-( -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 13:38:40 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:38:40 -0500 Subject: Mystery LSI-11 board In-Reply-To: <17164.44962.484728.1338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <430BF941.9020302@theriver.com> <17164.32296.790813.464181@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <430CA716.4030609@theriver.com> <17164.44962.484728.1338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 8/24/05, Paul Koning wrote: > One possibility is that it's a third party board with handles > manufactured by DEC attached to them. DEC sold those handles > separately, and you could just attach them to your own board... That was quite common with 3rd party boards. We used real DEC stiffener/latches for our Unibus and Qbus products, but we never stamped a number on them anywhere. You had to see the pattern of lights to locate our board in the backplane (easy because we had 3 clusters of 4-LED DialLite assemblies). Out of the backplane, though, we clearly marked our boards with model number and our address/phone number (1-800-SRC-DATA) > Yet another thing to look for: DEC boards have a DEC logo ("digital" > in 7 blocks -- unless it's quite old) somewhere on the board, almost > certainly near the edge. That depends on your definition of "quite old". I don't recall ever seeing a Digital logo on the boards that were hand-taped. Once DEC moved to machine-routed boards with solder mask, _that_ era all had a logo in copper. So... some time in the late 1970s to early 1980s would be where I remember seeing logos (Rainbows, Professional 3xx... that era). Older Qbus stuff may or may not have a logo (but I _think_ all the Qbus stuff was designed with CAD). -ethan P.S. - it _does_ look like Qbus to me - I think I see grant jumpers on the right side fingers on the view of the solder side. P.P.S. - just because there are lots of ECOs doesn't mean that the board wasn't a production board... we shipped our first "COMBOARD-II"s to customers with 14 component adds (mostly resistors), about 30 cuts and about 50 jumps. OTOH, that doesn't look like DEC ECO practice (nor does it have a DEC feel to me). I wouldn't start by looking for any DEC identifiers - that's pretty clearly a 3rd party board. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Aug 24 14:24:54 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:24:54 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data docu In-Reply-To: <9504.62.177.191.201.1124892731.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <9e3087ba0e126c2a1ee7502470b94e2c@bitsavers.org> <000e01c59fa6$62c7b590$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001401c59fc1$320a0870$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <9504.62.177.191.201.1124892731.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050824212425.02df01b0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hoi Ed, Heb je deze docs nog ? Heb er wel intresse in namelijk. Mvg, Stefan. At 16:12 24-8-2005, you wrote: >Available for the cost of shipping (from the Netherlands), some >Norsk Data material. Weight of all together is approx. 1Kg (2.2 lbs) > >Diagrams of the ND-100 cpu,floppy controller, 10Mb disk interface >ND-500 microprogram Guide >ND-500 compact Illustrated parts guide >ND-500 test microprogram descriptions. > >Regards, > >Ed ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From tradde at excite.com Wed Aug 24 14:13:57 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! Message-ID: <20050824191357.DEF38BB4FF@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> --- On Wed 08/24, Ethan Dicks < ethan.dicks at gmail.com > wrote: From: Ethan Dicks [mailto: ethan.dicks at gmail.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:30:33 -0500 Subject: Re: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! On 8/24/05, vrs wrote:
> Cool! Unfortunately, I am nowhere near Dallas :-(.

Neither am I. :-(

-ethan

Nor am I. My brother lives in Houston, but that's still a drive. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From tradde at excite.com Wed Aug 24 14:17:49 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! Message-ID: <20050824191749.CBFFDBB46E@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> --- On Wed 08/24, Al Kossow < aek at bitsavers.org > wrote: From: Al Kossow [mailto: aek at bitsavers.org] To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:27:04 -0700 Subject: Fwd: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked!

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Patrick Jankowiak
> Date: August 23, 2005 7:25:57 PM PDT
> To: General at robot.net, Discussion at robot.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts
> Cc: Al Kossow
> Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be
> junked!
>
> I hate to do this but someone please come get this, there is no space
> and it will have to be scrapped if not rescued. It's for a pdp8i and
> gives you about 700K more "RAM" memory on top of the 4 or 8K of core
> you already have.
>
> This has to go this weekend or next at the latest, time is of the
> utmost!
>
> Please follow the link and see
>
> "1969 BSL model 7118 Disk-Based Core Memory Expansion for pdp8 "
>
> http://rawfire.torche.com/~opcom/
>
> contact 214-763-4764
>
> thanks,
> Patrick
> Dallas Texas
>

Is there anyone in or near Dallas that can save this. Then there is a chance someone on this list who might be able to use it could arrange pickup or shipping. There does not seem to be much time, so this is my best suggestion. If Dallas were a hop, skip, and jump from me I would drive down to get it myself. :( _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Aug 24 14:21:05 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:21:05 +0200 Subject: VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-08-20 08:27:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: There we are. We're still working on remote power switching, but I just had some spare minutes as well as console access. Here are details of my box: -------------------- >8 ============================================== F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A . . M M . . . . P P TYP o o . + . . + + . . . . + + STF . . . . . . . . . . . . E B BPD . . . . . . . . . . . . + + ETF . . . . . . . . . . . . E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + + + . + + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + . + . + + . XBI E + . . . . . . A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . . . 32 32 . . . . . . 64 Mb ROM = 4.1 EEPROM = 2.0/4.B SN = GA84900275 >>> SH ALL Type Rev 1+ KA62B (8001) 8002 2+ KA62B (8001) 8002 7+ MS62A (4001) 0002 8+ MS62A (4001) 0002 B+ DEMFA (0823) 0514 D+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 E+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 XBI D 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 2+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C1 4+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 5+ DMB32 (0109) 210B 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0300 XBI E 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 2+ DEBNI (0118) 0300 4+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C1 6+ TBK50 (410E) 0250 Current Primary: 1 /NOENABLED- /NOPRIMARY- F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # . . . . . . A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . . . 32 32 . . . . . . 64 Mb /INTERLEAVE:DEFAULT /SCOPE /SPEED: 9600 /NOBREAK English XMI:D BI:6 08-00-2B-14-79-2E XMI:E BI:2 08-00-2B-15-89-75 INFO /R5:00000110 /XMI:D /BI:6 ET0 V61 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DUC STB /R5:E0000000 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU17 DEFAULT /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU8C CONV /R5:00000001 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU17 V71C /R5:00000001 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU96 V61C /R5:00000001 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DUC V71 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU96 V62 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU8C V62C /R5:00000001 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU8C Y97 /R5:00000001 /XMI:E /BI:4 /NODE:00000304 DU64 ============================= 8< ------------------------------------- With the faulty module installed, the initial selftest outputs this and hangs afterwards: -------------------- >8 ============================================== F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A . M M M . . . . P P TYP o o . + . + + + . . . . + + STF . . . . . . . . . . . . E B BPD ============================= 8< ------------------------------------- When it hangs, the CPU modules flip between twe LED states: 1 (bottom LED on) and 6 (2nd and third LEDs on). Is there documentation available about the meaning of these? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From eric at rothfus.com Wed Aug 24 14:28:08 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:28:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fwd: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! In-Reply-To: <20050824191749.CBFFDBB46E@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> (tradde@excite.com) References: <20050824191749.CBFFDBB46E@xprdmailfe25.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <1124907700@rothfus.com> > ... > Is there anyone in or near Dallas that can save this. Then there is > ... I've contacted Patrick indicating that I'd be willing to do the trek from Austin (about 3 hours) to pick it up. I've indicated that I'd like to be the "last best hope" for the system. If someone else really wants it, please volunteer and you'll save me the trip. :-) I don't have that much storage either. Eric From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Aug 24 15:07:29 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 22:07:29 +0200 Subject: [LV] VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050824200729.GP13517@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-08-24 21:21:05 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > >>> SH ALL > XBI D > 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0300 > XBI E > 2+ DEBNI (0118) 0300 Two network interfaces. I think getting the XMI bus under control isn't all that hard. Also, I don't fear the BI bus at the moment. However, I cannot find useful documentation for the DEBNI. So does anybody have some docs for it around? ...or shall I try to disassemble it's firmware. Since the box can boot off it, the required bits should be there. I also found some comments that the software interface of the DEBNI is a lot easier to use than that of the DEBNA, the previous version of this card. (Rumors are that it's only a different ROM, so you can easily upgrade a DEBNA to a DEBNI). MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 24 15:12:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:12:01 +0100 Subject: Norsk Data docu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 4:51 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Norsk Data docu > > > Available for the cost of shipping (from the Netherlands) > > I would like to get these from you to add to the archives > on bitsavers. I currently have nothing on Norsk Data. Hmm, that'd be useful. We've still got an ND-100 arriving at some point (it's inconvenient for us to take it on right now, plus for the owners to move it from the island it lives on right at this time!) but I have no idea what docs it'll come with. Some online ND-100 stuff would be useful! cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 24 15:40:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <200508242040.NAA25168@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message <0ILP004N8EKHJER2 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > Allison wrote: > >> Unless you use a drive that spins faster then the 500khz rate is fine. > >If it doesn't, I'll speedhack it to run at 300. >The only drive I've got that runs at 360 is a Y-E Data YD-380B. It completely >ignores the speed select pin, even though it's wired to "something" on the >PCB... >There are no visible jumpers anywhere, besides DS0 and DS1. > >> Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. >> Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). > >Eek! Interrupt-mode it is then. ---snip--- Hi You might check the interrupt overhead. If you can't handle it in polled mode, it is unlikekly that interrupt mode will keep up. Although, the time between seeing the data available bit and transfering the data is 13us, at 500Khz the bytes will arrive at 20us rate. It changes what you need to do in which order. Also, like I said in another post, if you know how fast your processor is running, you may not need to check the data available status every byte. Remember, they are comming at 20 us each. You need to know the uncertainty of the first status( how long it takes to loop on the status). You also don't need to worry too much about the first data available. Remember, the controller has to read across the header and gaps before it needs to transfer any data. Dwight From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Aug 24 15:45:34 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:45:34 +0100 Subject: DEC cables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508242055.j7OKtcsv000232@keith.ezwind.net> Does anyone in the UK have a spare DEC serial cable (any BC16-x) they'd be prepared to donate/sell for a pittance? Until I move house & install my shiny(ish) new(ish) MicroVAX in the garage with a permanent wire to the office, I can't justify building my own cable. Plus I don't have time to build one due to packing boxes (technically, I don't even have time to test it due to box packing, but Herself sleeps later than me in the mornings...), nor do I have the right crimping tool. Or cable or connectors, for that matter... I am, of course, happy to pay shipping costs. Can also trade, ask if there's something you want & I will endevour to swap (obviously, you can't have my HP1000 A700!!) Also, not strictly sure if this is on-topic or not, but: I'm planning to install 2 or 3 Cat5e cables from the garage to the house. 1 will be a genuine ethernet; the other two (or maybe 3) I'd like to use as serial cables: If I simply wire them as normal ethernet, will they work OK as serial comms cables; or should I wire them differently? Since I plan to make my own [device] --> [RJ45] and [RJ45] --> [terminal] cables to link to the Cat5e "bridge" cabling, I have complete control over how they are wired up. Cheers folks, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/80 - Release Date: 23/08/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 24 15:57:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <200508242057.NAA25181@clulw009.amd.com> Oops! Change all of the 20us to 16us. That is what I really meant but had some brain rot. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >>From: "Philip Pemberton" >> >>In message <0ILP004N8EKHJER2 at vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >> Allison wrote: >> >>> Unless you use a drive that spins faster then the 500khz rate is fine. >> >>If it doesn't, I'll speedhack it to run at 300. >>The only drive I've got that runs at 360 is a Y-E Data YD-380B. It completely >>ignores the speed select pin, even though it's wired to "something" on the >>PCB... >>There are no visible jumpers anywhere, besides DS0 and DS1. >> >>> Yep, remember the worst case for "fast is 13us! I'd plan for that. >>> Also the slow rates will give you nominal 32us (27us worst case). >> >>Eek! Interrupt-mode it is then. > >---snip--- > >Hi > You might check the interrupt overhead. If you can't handle it >in polled mode, it is unlikekly that interrupt mode will keep >up. Although, the time between seeing the data available bit >and transfering the data is 13us, at 500Khz the bytes will >arrive at 20us rate. It changes what you need to do in which ^^^^ 16us >order. Also, like I said in another post, if you know how >fast your processor is running, you may not need to check >the data available status every byte. Remember, they are >comming at 20 us each. You need to know the uncertainty of ^^^^ 16us >the first status( how long it takes to loop on the status). > You also don't need to worry too much about the first data >available. Remember, the controller has to read across the >header and gaps before it needs to transfer any data. >Dwight > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 24 16:11:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <200508242111.OAA25187@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" ---snip--- > >ugly 8080 flavor for transfers up to 1KB: > > ; HL is memory pointer > ; A is temp > ; B is transfer length *4 > ; Zero flag affected by DCR B > DMAIO: IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted > mov M,A > INX H ; HL<-HL+1 > IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted > mov M,A > INX H ; HL<-HL+1 > IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted > mov M,A > INX H ; HL<-HL+1 > IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted > mov M,A > INX H ; HL<-HL+1 > DCR B ; B is dmatransfer down counter > JNZ DMAIO ; loop if not Zero, more to go. > ... > Hi As I recall, you could move the DCR B before the last IN DMAport. As I recall, INX H didn't effect the zero flag ( or was that the carry flag ? ). In any case, This kept the last time shorter. Dwight >It's 35 cycles in z80 for the slowest part of the loop >and 34 for 8080. Z80 IN port is 11cy! > >Why four bytes pwer transfer? one it makes doing 512 or >1024 bytes per sector with a 8bit counter (lower overhead) >and doing a 765 format only requires 4 bytes per sector >(C, H, R and N)! > >A 2mhz 8080 will actually run this for 8" DD (13us case) >successfuly even though the last leg of the loop is >17.5us as you have 16us +13us worst case before an >overrun occurs and the next step in the loop is not >as slow. Note waits for refresh will blow the works >and Z80s systems that use processor refresh are not >likely to behave well if the FDC hangs (no disk or >blank inserted) too long. > >A 6502 can easily do it. > >>From a system perspective I prefer DMA. I like to free >up CPU cycles to do "stuff" and make hardware do repeatitive >stuff like basic transfers. However the DMA does not have \ >to be complex or even a LSI (8257 or 8237). A simple gating >logic plus an upcounter of sufficient length is enough and >it can even be to a fixed address (host buffer in the case >of CP/M deblocking). Things like background tasks are then >easier to implement to utilize otherwise wasted IO loops >(wait for keyboard!). The most obvious interrupt driven >background tasks to implement are printer output buffering >or modem input buffering. > > >Allison > > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 24 16:16:36 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:16:36 -0400 Subject: DEC cables References: <200508242055.j7OKtcsv000232@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17164.58292.762062.165329@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ade" == Ade Vickers writes: Ade> Also, not strictly sure if this is on-topic or not, but: I'm Ade> planning to install 2 or 3 Cat5e cables from the garage to the Ade> house. 1 will be a genuine ethernet; the other two (or maybe 3) Ade> I'd like to use as serial cables: If I simply wire them as Ade> normal ethernet, will they work OK as serial comms cables; or Ade> should I wire them differently? Since I plan to make my own Ade> [device] --> [RJ45] and [RJ45] --> [terminal] cables to link to Ade> the Cat5e "bridge" cabling, I have complete control over how Ade> they are wired up. Ethernet cable is paired oddly -- it doesn't have pairs attached to adjacent pins, but the pairs go 1-2, 3-6, 4-5, 7-8. I remember someone trying to do an Ethernet link test with a full 100 meter spool that was wired to adjacent pairs. Lots of bit errors... Anyway, terminal links are slow enough that the pairing isn't critical. We use Cat5 patch cords here at work for everything, including UART connections. It works fine. paul From tomj at wps.com Wed Aug 24 16:21:28 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nerding out with termcap In-Reply-To: <017001c5a50d$c8aa77a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <017001c5a50d$c8aa77a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050824141952.G3642@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Jules Richardson" >> Out of interest, how are you doing the +12V supply rail? Or don't you need >> one in this particular situation? Google for "M1-ATX". 6V - 30V input, motherboard connector output, power switch management, battery management, audio amp management, survives engine cranking, blah blah etc. Cost as much as the motherboard -- $89. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 24 16:46:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:46:01 -0400 Subject: Floppy controller questions Message-ID: <0ILQ000NWXROE4H5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Floppy controller questions > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:11:36 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >---snip--- >> >>ugly 8080 flavor for transfers up to 1KB: >> >> ; HL is memory pointer >> ; A is temp >> ; B is transfer length *4 >> ; Zero flag affected by DCR B >> DMAIO: IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted >> mov M,A >> INX H ; HL<-HL+1 >> IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted >> mov M,A >> INX H ; HL<-HL+1 >> IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted >> mov M,A >> INX H ; HL<-HL+1 >> IN DMAport ; wait if DMA is not asserted >> mov M,A >> INX H ; HL<-HL+1 >> DCR B ; B is dmatransfer down counter >> JNZ DMAIO ; loop if not Zero, more to go. >> ... >> > >Hi > As I recall, you could move the DCR B before the last >IN DMAport. As I recall, INX H didn't effect the zero >flag ( or was that the carry flag ? ). In any case, >This kept the last time shorter. >Dwight > Makes no difference in action. From the last IN DMAport you have average 16uS to do whatever and get to the next IN DMAport. Delay too long and you have a data overrun. The INX H does not affect the flags the flags on 8080/8085/z80. The DCR B does affect the zero flag. It takes 10cycles to do the jump, 7 to not jump. Z80 DJNZ is faster by 6 cycles as it would eliminate the DCR B and also does the jump in 8 cycles. The only difference is C would be your data counter. None of this really helps of the CPU is 8088 or 6502. Allison From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 24 18:12:19 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:12:19 +0100 Subject: [LV] VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <20050824200729.GP13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <001901c5a901$48ec3bf0$5b01a8c0@pc1> >Two network interfaces. I think getting the XMI bus under control isn't >all that hard. Also, I don't fear the BI bus at the moment. However, I >cannot find useful documentation for the DEBNI. So does anybody have >some docs for it around? ...or shall I try to disassemble it's firmware. I have not yet found exactly the right manual for the DEBNI but I think I remember seeing some stuff buried in some other manual. The XMI Adapters handbook has a bunch of useful XMI stuff. EK-640EB-MG (VAX 6000-400 Options and Maintenance) has a bunch of other useful stuff. EK-640EB-TM (VAX 6000-400 Technical User's Guide) has even more stuff. The DEBNI installation guide has some sparse register documentation, but not a great deal of it. I'm not sure that all of these made it to Manx so if you cannot find any of them, give me a shout and I'll put them up for FTP (and try and get them to Manx). >I also found some comments that the software interface of the DEBNI is a >lot easier to use than that of the DEBNA, the previous version of this >card. (Rumors are that it's only a different ROM, so you can easily >upgrade a DEBNA to a DEBNI). My recollention is that the orignal DEBNA tried to be both a TK50 (TK70?) controller and an ethernet controller and was somewhat unsuccessful in one or both roles! The functionality was then split out into two cards. Quite how these cards relate to the original DEBNA is something I've forgotten. But if you come across DEBNA info it will probably help with the DEBNI. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 24 18:19:37 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:19:37 +0100 Subject: VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <001a01c5a902$4e133ec0$5b01a8c0@pc1> >When it hangs, the CPU modules flip between twe LED states: 1 (bottom >LED on) and 6 (2nd and third LEDs on). Is there documentation available >about the meaning of these? EK-624EA-MG-001 VAX 6000 Models 300 and 400 Service Manual should help. Again, if it's not on Manx, let me know and I'll dig it out. My memory tells me that there are some restrictions about what goes where on the XMI bus, but I've not looked at the manual lately so I don't remember precisely what they are. One suggestion would be to take the working config (with just the one memory board) and swap the suspect memory board for the good one. If that fails then you have a bad memory board taking out the bus. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 24 19:25:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dealing with 4mm and 8mm tapes Message-ID: <200508250025.j7P0PH9v014303@onyx.spiritone.com> Out of curiousity what are people on the lists experiences in dealing with 4mm and 8mm tapes? The 4mm tapes are about 12-13 years old and the 8mm 8-13 years old. I've managed to keep a good selection of tape drives around, so we should hopefully have drives (though cleaning tapes are a different matter). We don't know what model DDS drive the 4mm tapes were written in, however, we do have DDS3 and maybe DDS4 drives from RS/6k's, and are hoping they'll be able to handle any funky formating issues. Interesting, someone here just came up with the name "AP Unix" as a possible maker of the 4mm drives used back then. Zane From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 24 19:39:16 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:39:16 -0400 Subject: Dealing with 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <200508250025.j7P0PH9v014303@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200508250025.j7P0PH9v014303@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <430D1334.nailBEG19EIP6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The 4mm tapes are about 12-13 years old and the 8mm 8-13 years old. > [...]we do have DDS3 and maybe DDS4 drives [...] DDS drives do a very good job of reading older lower-density 4mm tapes. And DDS drives seem to be pretty durable. There were a couple of oddball 8mm formats for digital data very early on but it's very unlikely you've got tapes in those odd formats. What you have will probably be readable in an Exabyte 8200 (should you find a working one!) or 8500/8505/8505XL (far more reliable). An AIT drive (also uses 8mm-style cartridges) may or may not be backwards compatible with the earlier Exabyte formats, I'm not too up on the details. If the tapes are intended for digital data storage they'll generally be better than videotapes pressed into digital use, at least for 8mm. I never was able to tell the difference between "computer" and "audio" 4mm tapes in everyday use. As long as you don't have to write, only read, I think the Exabyte 85xx series can read the 8200 density stuff OK. There are 85xx variants with compression and variants without compression, and they don't necessarily switch transparently from one mode to the other (caused much confusion for me 15 years ago!). Tim. / From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 24 19:56:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dealing with 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <430D1334.nailBEG19EIP6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 24, 2005 08:39:16 PM Message-ID: <200508250056.j7P0uHJi015002@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > The 4mm tapes are about 12-13 years old and the 8mm 8-13 years old. > > [...]we do have DDS3 and maybe DDS4 drives [...] > > DDS drives do a very good job of reading older lower-density 4mm tapes. It's good to get some confirmation on that. > And DDS drives seem to be pretty durable. The drives that we are planning on using are basically brand new and coming out of RS/6000 servers that are going out of service. I do have a fairly large collection of drives of unknown condition here, but then I also have been collecting tapes to test them with :^) > There were a couple of oddball 8mm formats for digital data very early > on but it's very unlikely you've got tapes in those odd formats. What > you have will probably be readable in an Exabyte 8200 (should you find > a working one!) or 8500/8505/8505XL (far more reliable). An AIT > drive (also uses 8mm-style cartridges) may or may not be backwards > compatible with the earlier Exabyte formats, I'm not too up on the > details. I'm possitive they're not 8200, though I think I *might* have some working 8200 drives. I'd thought they were 8500, but is it possible to get close to 10GB on an 8500 even with compression? (a lot of the tapes are labeled with the disk name/size) > If the tapes are intended for digital data storage they'll generally > be better than videotapes pressed into digital use, at least for 8mm. > I never was able to tell the difference between "computer" and "audio" > 4mm tapes in everyday use. They're either genuine Exabyte or Sony from what I've seen, I would hope that none were videotapes. BTW, due to the nature of audio DAT tapes, I wonder if there is a difference. > As long as you don't have to write, only read, I think the Exabyte 85xx > series can read the 8200 density stuff OK. There are 85xx variants > with compression and variants without compression, and they > don't necessarily switch transparently from one mode to the other > (caused much confusion for me 15 years ago!). IIRC, the 85xx series can read 8200 tapes, but it's been years since I touched an 8mm drive, or read up on the spec's. More importantly I didn't have anything to do with the creation of any of these tapes. Anyone have any comments on the readability of 8-13 year old 8mm and 12-13 year old 4mm? Also, does anyone have any idea what the "autodump" format might be? I'm guessing some sort of dump varient, that can hopefully be read by ufsrestore. Zane From rcini at optonline.net Wed Aug 24 20:52:13 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:52:13 -0400 Subject: More memory board problems Message-ID: <002d01c5a917$9d25f6a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I have to say that I'm nearly ready to throw this 8800b through a window. I purchased, yet again, another memory board in an effort to nail-down some stable memory for this system and reach 48k with the fewest boards possible. I've got the system booting BASIC with 16k, but I want more. This board is a 64k Central Data Systems DRAM card. I confirmed that it was strapped properly for an 8080-based system (sets refresh rate, etc.). This time I get problem I've never seen before. On RESET, the data LEDs show 0xff. If you toggle a value and DEPOSIT it, it will usually store but the LEDs will still show 0xff. If you EXAMINE the location, it will show the right value. Any ideas? I'm going back to swapping boards around again. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Wed Aug 24 21:20:44 2005 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:20:44 -0500 Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 8/24/05 1:30 PM, Ethan Dicks at ethan.dicks at gmail.com wrote: > On 8/24/05, vrs wrote: >> Cool! Unfortunately, I am nowhere near Dallas :-(. > > Neither am I. :-( > > -ethan > Where in Dallas? From kittstr at earthlink.net Wed Aug 24 23:14:13 2005 From: kittstr at earthlink.net (Andrew Strouse) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:14:13 -0400 Subject: IBM Convertible 5140 saga Message-ID: <007801c5a92b$940b17d0$019b9b9b@amscomputer> I just received a IBM Convertible 5140 in what looks like great condition. It even had the little "cardboard floppies" in the drives. It didn't come with any disks, so I downloaded the starter disk from ibm's ftp site. When I try to boot the computer I get the message 'Disk Boot Error' I tried 3 different startup floppies (all made with the thing I downloaded from ibm) and then I even tried an old ms dos 5 disk I had lying around. Then I cleaned the disk heads and tried everything all over again. (3 fresh floppies and the old dos disk) Still no results, So I googled up disassembly instructions and switched drive A with drive B, Then I repeated as above. Still 'Disk Boot Failure'. Does any one know what else I should try? Does any one have any extra known working drives sitting around? Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide. Andrew Strouse ( kittstr at earthlink.net ) From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Aug 25 00:10:48 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:10:48 -0500 Subject: IBM Convertible 5140 saga In-Reply-To: <200508250415.j7P4FQvZ001374@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508250415.j7P4FQvZ001374@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <430D52D8.5080800@brutman.com> Andrew, This sounds amazingly familiar .. are you writing those diskettes in a 1.44MB drive? Even with the correct double density media I've had trouble writing double density diskettes using a 1.44MB drive. Try finding a genuine DOS 3.3 diskette, not a copy made in a 1.44MB drive. Or cut your diskette images to disk using a genuine 720K drive. That'll probably work. (I had similar problems when trying to boot a PCjr using a 720KB diskette drive. None of the diskettes I made using a 1.44MB drive worked, even with the correct media. Only diskettes made on a 720KB drive were bootable.) Mike From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Aug 25 02:15:05 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:15:05 +0100 Subject: DEC cables In-Reply-To: <17164.58292.762062.165329@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200508250725.j7P7P5Bw005021@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: 24 August 2005 22:17 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC cables > > > Ethernet cable is paired oddly -- it doesn't have pairs > attached to adjacent pins, but the pairs go 1-2, 3-6, 4-5, > 7-8. I remember someone trying to do an Ethernet link test > with a full 100 meter spool that was wired to adjacent pairs. > Lots of bit errors... > > Anyway, terminal links are slow enough that the pairing isn't > critical. We use Cat5 patch cords here at work for > everything, including UART connections. It works fine. Thanks Paul, I'll wire them as standard ethernet then, so at least I have a choice of uses... Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 24/08/2005 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 25 08:54:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:54:33 +0100 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list Message-ID: OK OK pretty OT even for me, but I figure some of you others must have wrestled with this abortion of a MUA and this list so have overcome the same problem I have right now... (I'm currently over in sunny MN on the laptop, otherwise I'd be snug at home with a decent OS and mail client :) All classiccmp messages appear in the message list with the correct sender name (or sender email address if the author's MUA didn't send a 'friendly' name along with the address). That much is fine. However in Outlook's preview pane the From: address always appears as 'cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org' rather than the sender (no other MUA I've ever used with this list has ever done that!) If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, then I get something different yet again - in the From: field something like: "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; Jules Richardson [julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" In other words Outlook seems confused as hell as to how to process mail headers and 'loses' track of who sent the message, deciding instead to think I want to see the fact that it was relayed via the list :( It's particularly irritating if I forward a classiccmp message to anyone as then it does something different *yet again* and includes in the forward text as much as "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; Jules Richardson" but loses the actual originator's email address. Grrr! I can't see anything obvious in the settings to fix this so it behaves like any other MUA on the planet though, and Google was of little help. Hopefully others on the list have been forced to use OL2000 too and have found a workaround... (OS is Windows 2k SP4, Outlook is v.9, and I'm not using any kind of intermediate processing of traffic unlike back home, so messages are exaclty as received from yahoo) Suggestions of better Windows MUAs are of course welcome, but I'm *really* tight on disk space so don't want something that comes bundled with a web browser / whatever which I won't use anyway! other than a useless mail client I'm having a ball out here though - although not seen any classic comps yet ;) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 25 09:10:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:10:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list References: Message-ID: <17165.53612.793630.418094@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Suggestions of better Windows MUAs are of course welcome, but Jules> I'm *really* tight on disk space ... Depending on how tight, and what other things you use the laptop for -- I use xemacs with "vm" as my mail agent. Works identically on Win and Linux, doesn't do viruses, doesn't do dumb things like you mentioned (and if it does you just fix it)... paul From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 25 09:40:44 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:40:44 +0200 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <430DF48C.9005.20198388@localhost> Am 25 Aug 2005 14:54 meinte Jules Richardson: > Suggestions of better Windows MUAs are of course welcome, but I'm *really* > tight on disk space so don't want something that comes bundled with a web > browser / whatever which I won't use anyway! Well, for myself I'm using Pegasus Mail 4.21 with MS-Exchange and IMAP. Works fast, does usualy exactly what I want, no super duper functionality, nust what I need ... and, did I mention already, that it's reasonable fast? I have it running even on a 200 MHz machine with 256 and XP? A nice Mail/WWW station BTW. All files are basic classic mail files, so, lot of old shell tools can be easy adapted to at least read from there - originaly this was important for my, by now I only use what PM offers. And it sucks up 'only' about 6 MB Diskspace and a Memory footprint of some 8 MB (on a 2 GB system) with lots of open folders. Beside the actual 32 Bit version, there's a 16 Bit (Win 3.1, Win 9x) and even a DOS Version is available. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 25 09:39:36 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:39:36 -0500 Subject: More memory board problems In-Reply-To: <002d01c5a917$9d25f6a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002d01c5a917$9d25f6a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050825093838.0519a760@mail> At 08:52 PM 8/24/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: >I have to say that I'm nearly ready to throw this 8800b through a window. Altogether a truly classic experience with the Altairs and IMSAIs, as I recall. :-) - John From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Aug 25 09:59:32 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:59:32 -0400 Subject: More memory board problems Message-ID: All I can say is thank goodness for emulators. My kingdom for a stable memory board... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 10:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: More memory board problems At 08:52 PM 8/24/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: >I have to say that I'm nearly ready to throw this 8800b through a window. Altogether a truly classic experience with the Altairs and IMSAIs, as I recall. :-) - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 25 10:34:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:34:05 -0400 Subject: More memory board problems Message-ID: <0ILS00KGLB7IG0G4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: More memory board problems > From: John Foust > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:39:36 -0500 > To: > >At 08:52 PM 8/24/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: >>I have to say that I'm nearly ready to throw this 8800b through a window. > >Altogether a truly classic experience with the Altairs and IMSAIs, >as I recall. :-) > >- John Exactly why I have and Altair8800 and went to a NS*, I wanted to compute not constantly troubleshoot. The altair was PITA! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 25 10:36:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:36:46 -0400 Subject: More memory board problems Message-ID: <0ILS007E6BBZPWT7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: More memory board problems > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:59:32 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >All I can say is thank goodness for emulators. My kingdom for a stable >memory board... > Try a Compupro Ram16 or 17 or any of the other 64k on one board using 2116 type memory. Then terminate the bus, you just have to. Speed is not an issue and for altair backplanes ususally faster is a source of pain though a good terminator board will really help. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 25 10:46:28 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:46:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list Message-ID: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list > From: "Jules Richardson" > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:54:33 +0100 > To: "xx_classiccmp" > > >OK OK pretty OT even for me, but I figure some of you others must have >wrestled with this abortion of a MUA and this list so have overcome the same >problem I have right now... > >(I'm currently over in sunny MN on the laptop, otherwise I'd be snug at home >with a decent OS and mail client :) > >All classiccmp messages appear in the message list with the correct sender >name (or sender email address if the author's MUA didn't send a 'friendly' >name along with the address). That much is fine. However in Outlook's >preview pane the From: address always appears as >'cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org' rather than the sender (no other MUA I've >ever used with this list has ever done that!) > >If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, then I get >something different yet again - in the From: field something like: >"cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; Jules Richardson >[julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" > Real simple go into your address book and find the "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" entry and delete it. Somehow you associated that with a CCTALK. Solution two: install Thunderbird, works better, more virus resistant and NOT from mickyspooge. Solution three: Popcorn, A really minimal text only emailer that is very tiny and fast (even on a P90!). Very handy for reading headers then deleting those not wanted off the server without downloading the content. I use solution Two and Three. On my NT4 box I have fully removed Outlookexpress(OE) and InternetExplorer (use Firefox and OFFBYone instead). A side effect was no more Blue Screens of death while reading the mail. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 12:16:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:22 Subject: DEC network card? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone recognize this card? I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables connect to four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are marked Network Ports. see Joe From fryers at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 11:57:35 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:57:35 +0100 Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:22, Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone recognize this card? > > I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or > manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables connect to > four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are marked Network > Ports. see > The BNC connectors are a bit novel if it is SDI. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 25 12:14:54 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:14:54 -0700 Subject: DEC network card? Message-ID: <67afa16831ef13177b6cb6fba7a59c5e@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone recognize this card? probably MIL-1553B (1mbit network used in aircraft) Any vendor? Huntsville Microsystems made interfaces. Try googling for "1553B unibus" Haven't had to deal with that stuff in 25 years. Please check if the multifunction board (M7096) in the /44 for boot proms that aren't on Jay's M9312 page. The card looks like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5796306354 PN 23-E39A9 and 23-E22A9 are needed. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 12:17:25 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:17:25 -0400 Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <430DFD25.3080602@gmail.com> Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone recognize this card? > >>I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or > > manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables connect to > four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are marked Network > Ports. see > Looks like a CI, no? But I didn't know that you could put a Unibus CI in a PDP-11. I thought those were for just the VAX-11's. Peace... Sridhar From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 25 12:21:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:21:02 -0400 Subject: DEC network card? References: <3.0.6.16.20050825121622.0edf4a3e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17165.65022.802145.195486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: Simon> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:22, Joe R. Simon> wrote: >> Does anyone recognize this card? >> Cabling looks like SDI. Agreed. >> > I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or >> manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables >> connect to four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are >> marked Network Ports. see >> Simon> The BNC connectors are a bit novel if it is SDI. If they were TNC (threaded not bayonet) I'd suspect it to be a CI interface card (from an HSC50 or the like). It doesn't look like a DEC board (unless the digital logo is on the other side). The cable attachment for those coax cables doesn't have a DEC look to it, either. And the picture of the back has a mil-spec look to it. I wonder if this is a military databus interface. It's hard to tell from the back panel photos. Are those connectors actually BNC, or are they like BNC but a bit smaller? Do they have three or four prongs instead of the conventional 2 bayonet prongs? If so, they'd be TPS connectors, which fits the databus hypothesis. paul From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 25 13:24:31 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:31 -0400 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430E0CDF.4010704@sbcglobal.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > ... > > Suggestions of better Windows MUAs are of course welcome, but I'm *really* > tight on disk space so don't want something that comes bundled with a web > browser / whatever which I won't use anyway! > > other than a useless mail client I'm having a ball out here though - > although not seen any classic comps yet ;) Can't you use Yahoo's web interface? Otherwise, look into Pine or Thunderbird. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Aug 25 13:31:59 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More memory board problems Message-ID: <200508251831.LAA25975@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Richard A. Cini" > >All: > > I have to say that I'm nearly ready to throw this 8800b through a >window. I purchased, yet again, another memory board in an effort to >nail-down some stable memory for this system and reach 48k with the fewest >boards possible. I've got the system booting BASIC with 16k, but I want >more. > > This board is a 64k Central Data Systems DRAM card. I confirmed that >it was strapped properly for an 8080-based system (sets refresh rate, etc.). >This time I get problem I've never seen before. > > On RESET, the data LEDs show 0xff. If you toggle a value and DEPOSIT >it, it will usually store but the LEDs will still show 0xff. If you EXAMINE >the location, it will show the right value. Hi It sounds like a timing problem. It might be that the CPU isn't recognizing the wait states or something. Still, it sounds like it is excepting the value. You don't have similar problems with other memory boards? Does it still retain the value, if you go to another location first and then return? If so, I'd say it was a working board. It might be just a feature of the DRAM controller chip that it doesn't allow access to a location just written on the next cycle. If you toggle in a short piece of code does it execute the code or does it just go off to never never land? It might also be some type of buss contention. As I recall, any time you are looking at a specific location, the front panel generates a JMP xxxx, where the xxxx is the front panel switches. As I recall, any examine next or deposit next operation uses the NOP to point to the next location. You might check to see how the address lines look right after the deposit. As I recall, they should be static with the address of the last location referenced by the front panel. I don't have a schematic handy so I'm not sure. It might be that the front panel is doing something funny with the deposit. It might be doing a deposit next or something. Anyway, gather some more symptoms? Dwight From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 14:16:43 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:16:43 +0100 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64050825121625d136e2@mail.gmail.com> I don't want to be shot down for this...... When I am away I forward all my email accounts to my Gmail account and use it's labels to seperate the mail. I already use it for groups anyway. Then you can look at it on virtually any machine. You can also change the "from" address now as well if you want to replies will go back to your other email. Dan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 25 14:25:31 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:25:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050825121625d136e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050825121625d136e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <52911.82.152.112.73.1124997931.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I don't want to be shot down for this...... > When I am away I forward all my email accounts to my Gmail account > and use it's labels to seperate the mail. I already use it for groups > anyway. Why would you be shot down for that? If I didn't have my own mail server and web client I'd do that too. Jules: Thunderbird is your f(r)iend..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 14:32:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:32:11 -0400 Subject: Source of 2112 SRAMs? Message-ID: I just picked up a Heathkit ET-3400 that looks in pretty good condition *except* no SRAM. From browsing the docs, it seems I need 2 (but could use 4) 2112 SRAMs. Unfortunately, in all of my kit, I've never run across them. I have a tacklebox full of 2114s, and a small box of 2102s, but no 2112s. Yes, I could make a socket adapter for, say, 2101/5101/1822 SRAMs, but if anyone knows of a place I could get 2112s, that would be handy. If they are semi-unobtanium, I might just have to hand-wire a modern SRAM (and EPROM) socket up to the 40-pin expansion connector, but at least being able to get to the "CPU UP" message would be nice. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 25 14:34:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm tripping Message-ID: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> In santa fe. Was up at Los Alamos Sales. Same old gear is there still available for anyone willing to drive the kilomile (from generally anywhere). Got an immaculate Kaypro II in blue Kaypro zip/padded carry case for $50. Boot ROM politely asks for boot disk, alas I have none, but no smoke leaked out. Need to find diskettes when I get back! Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable gimcrack. I left behind tubes of new/unused ceramic 2708's and 2716's (both Intel) and WD 2511's. The latter is some sync comm chip, right? From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 25 14:40:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my D.G. Nova 4... for trade Message-ID: <20050825123421.L955@fiche.wps.com> I've decided my Nova 4 is too much of a distraction, and will be looking for a new home for it. http://wps.com/NOVA4. Disk still broken, but partly debugged, definitely repairable, the worst is long over. I have full documentation plus some, software, etc. Comes with multiple terminals (D410 plus others plus parts). I will not be parting with the TP2 without GREAT inducement. I would like to trade it for a desktop mini of some sort, with some form of magnetic storage with software support. Meaning, tape OK if there's a decent tape OS (like linctape/dectape or 1/2" reel), modest memory, assembler, etc. I don't need a valuable collectable machine. I don't need speed, lots of memory, or even a disk. I do want magnetic storage, like 1/2" reel tape, or linctape/dectape (keep wishin') or equiv with user interface software support (eg. OS or tape exec). I want assembler, and maybe one compiler, Algol great, Fortran fine, whatever. 70's vintage, repairable, documented. DEC, DG, GA, rebadged, whatever. It needs to be "cute" and cosmetically decent, flaws OK. I'll consider nice machines with curious "fatal flaws" if it meets other criteria (mostly aesthetic). A desktop box or no more than 24" rack. Weight under 100 lbs. I'm open to suggestions. I'm on the road until mid-Sept, so replies will be spotty until then. From tomj at wps.com Thu Aug 25 14:50:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my DG Nova 4, footnote Message-ID: <20050825124838.Q955@fiche.wps.com> Thw web page is a bit out of date. It's now in two racks, cosmetically great, both tape drives 100% functional, still have the WAIS and I/O expansion stuff, with docs and software. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 25 15:07:45 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:07:45 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? Message-ID: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Remember punchcards? Does anyone read them these days? I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. Someone approached me with some tapes to read and they also had 2 boxes of cards. I remember a nifty desktop card reader attached to a PDP-8/L once. I never used it but it sure seems like it would be easy/fun to wire it up to something more modern. Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? (I can hear the chorus now - "medication time!" :-) -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:12:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:12:32 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 8/25/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > Remember punchcards? Yep. > Does anyone read them these days? Not me. > I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. I started to write an app in C that could take a medium-res scan of a punch card (from a fax scanner I have) and "OCR" it, but I kinda lost interest after I got it as far as locating the edges of the card within the scan image. I never wrote any code to look for holes. For volume production, I think it's well worth maintaining a tabletop card reader. They are somewhat rare, but once you have one working, it's just as easy to read 2000 cards as to read 20. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 25 15:13:51 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5233845775 There's also a guy in Texas who periodically sells Documation readers on Ebay. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 25 15:17:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:17:45 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17166.10089.733862.513338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> Remember punchcards? Brad> Does anyone read them these days? I think I've heard of at least one of the serious retrocomputors who has a card reader. Brad> Someone approached me with some tapes to read and they also had Brad> 2 boxes of cards. Brad> I remember a nifty desktop card reader attached to a PDP-8/L Brad> once. I never used it but it sure seems like it would be Brad> easy/fun to wire it up to something more modern. There were several types of card readers for the PDP-11. One is quite small, fairly slow -- the CR11. The other is somewhat bigger (either a tabletop model or a freestanding unit, depending on hopper size) and comparable in speed to mainframe readers -- the CD11. Either one would do very nicely if you happen to have a PDP11 around. (Or a VAX? I think VMS had support for them.) And of course there are some big machines around with card readers... The folks at www.cray-cyber.org have one, judging by the photos, though it isn't clear whether it is hooked up. paul From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Aug 25 15:19:45 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:19:45 -0500 Subject: Source of 2112 SRAMs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050825151904.022aa940@mail.ubanproductions.com> I thought that I had a few laying around, but haven't been able to locate them yet. I did a quick google search and found this place which seems to have them... http://www.electronicplus.com/content/ProductPage.asp?maincat=c&subcat=cme --tom At 03:32 PM 8/25/2005 -0400, you wrote: >I just picked up a Heathkit ET-3400 that looks in pretty good >condition *except* no SRAM. From browsing the docs, it seems I need 2 >(but could use 4) 2112 SRAMs. Unfortunately, in all of my kit, I've >never run across them. I have a tacklebox full of 2114s, and a small >box of 2102s, but no 2112s. Yes, I could make a socket adapter for, >say, 2101/5101/1822 SRAMs, but if anyone knows of a place I could get >2112s, that would be handy. > >If they are semi-unobtanium, I might just have to hand-wire a modern >SRAM (and EPROM) socket up to the 40-pin expansion connector, but at >least being able to get to the "CPU UP" message would be nice. > >Thanks for any pointers, > >-ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 16:16:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:16:44 Subject: DECassette questions Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it yesterday. It's a model TU80 IIRC. Does anyone have anyexperience with them? I've never seen or heard of one in actual use but I know it's supposed to be useable on the PDP-8 so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good (and I can find the right interface card). What kind of cassette tapes do they use and how hard are they to find and format? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 16:21:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:21:08 Subject: DECassette questions 2 Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825162108.3ee73c5a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> PS Does anyone have any docs on this item or know what interface card it requires? I'm also looking for pinouts, etc in order to make an interface cable. Joe I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it yesterday. It's a model TU80 IIRC. Does anyone have anyexperience with them? I've never seen or heard of one in actual use but I know it's supposed to be useable on the PDP-8 so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good (and I can find the right interface card). What kind of cassette tapes do they use and how hard are they to find and format? Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 25 15:25:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 25, 2005 04:07:45 PM Message-ID: <200508252025.j7PKPau8006172@onyx.spiritone.com> > Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? I've got one. I even know right where it is, though getting to it would be another matter :^) Peripheral Dynamics Card Reader http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/C302.html The down side is I don't have any idea on how to hook it up to anything. I also have an "IBM Port-A-Punch Board & Stylus", and about an inch stack of blank cards. Zane From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 25 15:27:21 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:27:21 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <430E29A9.8090401@atarimuseum.com> I think Sellam has a system setup for reading Punchcards... Curt Brad Parker wrote: >Remember punchcards? > >Does anyone read them these days? > >I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. > >Someone approached me with some tapes to read and they also had 2 boxes >of cards. > >I remember a nifty desktop card reader attached to a PDP-8/L once. I >never used it but it sure seems like it would be easy/fun to wire it up >to something more modern. > >Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? > >(I can hear the chorus now - "medication time!" :-) > >-brad > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Aug 25 15:29:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:29:02 -0400 Subject: DECassette questions References: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17166.10766.825420.573615@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it Joe> yesterday. It's a model TU80 IIRC. Does anyone have Joe> anyexperience with them? I've never seen or heard of one in Joe> actual use but I know it's supposed to be useable on the PDP-8 Joe> so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good (and I can Joe> find the right interface card). What kind of cassette tapes do Joe> they use and how hard are they to find and format? It wouldn't be a TU80, that's a half inch 9 track streaming tape drive (predecessor of the TU81/TA81). Its controller speaks the TS11 programming interface (ugh). What you describe sounds like a TA11. That's probably really the controller name; I'm not sure what the drive is called. The 1976 PDP-11 peripherals handbook lists the TA11 (it's on Bitsavers). The description says that it uses "proprietary DEC Philips-type cassettes". What that proprietariness consists of is not clear; it may mean that is has digital tape (square loop) as opposed to audio tape in the cassette. Quite possibly a plain old audio cassette may work (ferrite type -- but if that fails then chrome tape might be worth trying). paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 25 15:29:18 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DECassette questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 25, 2005 04:16:44 PM Message-ID: <200508252029.j7PKTINV006248@onyx.spiritone.com> > I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it yesterday. > It's a model TU80 IIRC. Does anyone have anyexperience with them? I've > never seen or heard of one in actual use but I know it's supposed to be > useable on the PDP-8 so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good > (and I can find the right interface card). What kind of cassette tapes do > they use and how hard are they to find and format? > > Joe Interesting, I wouldn't think it would be a TU80 as I would expect that to be a 9-Track. I thought they were for LSI-11 systems. Somewhere I think I have a little bit of info on them, but probably not enough to be of any use. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:30:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:30:47 -0400 Subject: DECassette questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:16:44, Joe R. wrote: > I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it yesterday. > It's a model TU80 IIRC. Hmm... are you _sure_ about that? The TU80 is a 42"-tall cab with a flat mount (reels point at ceiling) 1600 bpi 9-track tape drive with a pair of 50-pin formatted interface cables. DEC made an interface for it, and it's compatible with several 3rd-party interface boards (Dilog, et al.) Perhaps you have a TU60? Audio cassette-sized cassettes, but with a 2mm notch in the middle of the top - data-grade only, not Radio Shack cheapies. > Does anyone have anyexperience with them? No. I have one (with a Unibus interface), but I've never powered it up. > I've > never seen or heard of one in actual use but I know it's supposed to be > useable on the PDP-8 so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good > (and I can find the right interface card). You are looking for a TA8E card. Not sure about the handle number. > What kind of cassette tapes do > they use and how hard are they to find and format? What I have is an industry-standard data cassette - they look almost exactly like home audio cassettes except for the 2mm notch in the top middle of the case, and they typically have red or white plastic flaps rather than bust-out-tabs for write protect - i.e. you can write-enable a tape by flipping the flap over the hole again. I suppose it would be somewhat easy to mod an ordinary cassette to work in these, but I suspect that you might run into a long-term reliability problem. IIRC, the data cassettes used a thicker mylar that would stand up to heavy use. I certainly wouldn't bother modding a C90 - we never used those for PET use back in the day - too thin and fragile. I'd start with a C20 or C30 and go from there, possibly as high as a C60. They aren't block structured as far as I know - more like traditional magtape. You should be able to boot from them, but I think in terms of writing, you can only overwrite swaths of tape, not parts of files. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 25 15:31:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:31:08 +0100 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > >If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, then I get > >something different yet again - in the From: field something like: > >"cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; Jules Richardson > >[julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" > > > > Real simple go into your address book and find the > "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" > entry and delete it. Somehow you associated that with a CCTALK. unfortunately not - I've got cctalk at classiccmp.org in there, but no sign of a bounces address :( I'm assuminmg Outlook is just going nuts because it can't handle messages having both a sender and from address in the same header - of course it's too braindead to let me see the received message header (rather than its post-receipt bastardised version) so I can't actually verify that... If I'd had more setup time before I left the UK the laptop wouldn't be running Windows even :) Thunderbird time I suppose... From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 25 16:01:49 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:01:49 -0700 Subject: DECassette questions 2 Message-ID: <02f52ef321f725d21f71c1742f5541e0@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone have any docs on this item I have the drawings and maint manual for the TU60 scanned. Will bump it up in the queue and email when it's on bitsavers. From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 25 16:13:13 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:13:13 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: <200508252025.j7PKPau8006172@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <035601c5a9b9$ce3bda00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I am another of those owners of a manual card punch... Some members of this list probably have sheet-feed scanners at least mechanically capable of grouped card reads. As for the reading software, it could be a snap to do, at least when compared to what we call standard OCR today. More down to earth, There is an eBayer up in ?Minnesota? ?Montana? that cornered the market on card readers, uses a few for himself, and sells the rest. John A. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Aug 25 16:27:49 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:27:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> References: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <53267.82.152.112.73.1125005269.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Now there's a question.... > Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable > gimcrack. I was in a hotel for a week recently doing an HP Proliant course (recertification) and their internet 'suite' was on the stage of the hotel ballroom in a suite called 'Gimcrack' what does it mean? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Aug 25 16:56:46 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:56:46 +0200 Subject: VAX 4000-705 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have to pick them up though. But I was just wondering if anyone has any picture's of one ? And perhaps tell me something about it ? Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 17:48:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:48:49 Subject: DECassette questions In-Reply-To: <200508252029.j7PKTINV006248@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825174849.3d27cdbc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I did some checking on the net and one site says that they're model TU 60 not 80 and they're probably correct. They have a picture of a PDP-11/55 with one but it's too far away to see the DECassette clearly. I THINK it's the fourth unit from the bottom in the third rack full height from the left in this picture . The DECassettes aren't much to see, just a black box with two tape drives and an open "pocket" for storing tapes. Joe At 01:29 PM 8/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I picked one of these up a while back and stumbled across it yesterday. >> It's a model TU80 IIRC. Does anyone have anyexperience with them? I've >> never seen or heard of one in actual use but I know it's supposed to be >> useable on the PDP-8 so I may try to hand it on my -8 if they're any good >> (and I can find the right interface card). What kind of cassette tapes do >> they use and how hard are they to find and format? >> >> Joe > >Interesting, I wouldn't think it would be a TU80 as I would expect that to >be a 9-Track. I thought they were for LSI-11 systems. Somewhere I think I >have a little bit of info on them, but probably not enough to be of any use. > > Zane > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 17:50:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:50:16 Subject: DECassette questions 2 In-Reply-To: <02f52ef321f725d21f71c1742f5541e0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825175016.3d1764f2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Great. Thanks Al. Joe At 02:01 PM 8/25/05 -0700, you wrote: > > Does anyone have any docs on this item > >I have the drawings and maint manual for the TU60 >scanned. Will bump it up in the queue and email >when it's on bitsavers. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 17:53:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:53:50 Subject: Gimcrack was Adrian: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <53267.82.152.112.73.1125005269.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk > References: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825175350.3d1729c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:27 PM 8/25/05 +0100, you wrote: >Now there's a question.... > >> Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable >> gimcrack. > >I was in a hotel for a week recently doing an HP Proliant course >(recertification) and their internet 'suite' was on the stage of the hotel >ballroom in a suite called 'Gimcrack' > >what does it mean? A showy but useless or worthless object; a gewgaw. Hmm. Sounds like a lot of the computer items that I have :-/ Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 25 17:03:53 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> from "Stefan" at Aug 25, 2005 11:56:46 PM Message-ID: <200508252203.j7PM3rVx008648@onyx.spiritone.com> > I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have to pick them up though. > But I was just wondering if anyone has any picture's of one ? > And perhaps tell me something about it ? > > Stefan. Nice! IIRC, they could be larger than a 19" rack, or they could fit in a 19" rack. Basically they're pretty close to being my dream VAX :^) Or would be if I had that kind of room :^( Zane From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 17:04:52 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 8/25/05, Stefan wrote: > I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have to pick them up though. > But I was just wondering if anyone has any picture's of one ? > And perhaps tell me something about it ? They are the fastest VAX 4000 machines. They look like other vax4000s (4200, 4300, 4400, 4500, 4600). Based on NVAX chips. Prices may go up to several hundred dollors on the biggest online bazaar. > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Aug 25 17:13:14 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 23:13:14 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002301c5a9c2$3115a9a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> >I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have >to pick them up though. But I was just wondering >if anyone has any picture's of one ? And perhaps >tell me something about it ? Here's the first page I came across with some appropriate pictures: http://www.appelt4u.de/vax/vax4000-500/g-vax4000-500.htm IIRC, the far right is the PSU, the wide panel to the left of that covers the CPU + memory cage and the rest of the cage extending to the left is Q-bus. There are disk/tape bays above. Built-in DSSI gives these beasts in-built clustering capabilities. The VAX 4000-705A was just about the top of the VAX 4000 range. Given the appropriate CPUs and memories you could run anything from a VAX 4000-300 upwards in those boxes. Size-wise they are just about waist high and will need two people to lift comfortably. They roll aroun quite easily on their castors though. You can remove the skins and rack mount them in standard 19" racks - no extra rails required. At one stage I had two such VAXes mounted back to back in a rack clustered together. Quite a compact system for its day! Plenty of docs on Manx (http://vt100.net/manx). Look for "VAX 4000" and KA694, KA692, KA690, KA680 and KA670 (from latest to earliest). You can ignore anything in the VAX 4000-100 range, they are completely different beasts. The VAX 4000-200 is also a completely different animal but lives in a similar size enclosure. One final point is that the first member of the familt, the VAX 4000-300, originally shipped with a backplane that cannot support the later members of the family. So if you do come across a VAX 4000-300 enclosure you might not be able to swap parts freely with the -400/500/600/70x. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 25 17:16:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:16:50 -0700 Subject: TU60 docs Message-ID: <7b95f0b9132634a889894ce584d02d89@bitsavers.org> up on http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decCassette there was an "OS" called CAPS-11 for it. it was a dog. the unibus interface pn is M7292 couple of bits of trivia: The TU60 was designed by Tom Stockebrand, the same person who invented LINC/DECtape There is no capstan on the transports. From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Aug 25 17:45:00 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:45:00 -0700 Subject: DECassette questions In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <430E49EC.3000504@theriver.com> A somewhat related question: >What I have is an industry-standard data cassette - they look almost >exactly like home audio cassettes except for the 2mm notch in the top >middle of the case, and they typically have red or white plastic flaps >rather than bust-out-tabs for write protect - i.e. you can >write-enable a tape by flipping the flap over the hole again. > I just found a data casette system I'm trying to find info on and it uses the same cassette with the 2mm notch. The casette labeled as a DC-40FL. The cassettes go into a tape machine made by MFE industries an MFE 2500. The machine has 6 toggles: local copy, rewind, on line, binary, send, receive. A rotary baud rate selector: 110,300, 1200, 2400 and several lights: online, binary, send, recieve On the back there are, what appears are two serial port connections a 25 pin male connector labeled MODEM ans a 25 pin female, labeled TERMINAL. I assume it can be used as a simple serial line tape machine??? I haven't been able to find any relevant info on the net! Chhers Tom > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 25 18:51:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:51:47 Subject: TU60 docs In-Reply-To: <7b95f0b9132634a889894ce584d02d89@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050825185147.0f270f4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:16 PM 8/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >up on >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decCassette Thanks! > >there was an "OS" called CAPS-11 for it. it was a dog. > >the unibus interface pn is M7292 Do you know what the number is for the Omnibus interface for it? I couldn't find anything about the interfaces in the docs that you posted. Do you know what OS(s) for the PDP-8A supported it? My PDP-8 handbook does say that it was available for the 8A but doesn't give details. Joe > >couple of bits of trivia: > >The TU60 was designed by Tom Stockebrand, the same person >who invented LINC/DECtape > >There is no capstan on the transports. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 25 18:31:05 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? Message-ID: <200508252331.j7PNV55G010847@onyx.spiritone.com> Is anyone on this list an AOL user that I can send a test email to? I want to find out if I can get email through to AOL. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 25 18:39:53 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ASR 33 Message-ID: Another "in the way" item around these parts is a complete, not working but very restorable, Teletype ASR 33. I would like to clear it out in a hurry. Sorry, no shipping, I am in Carmel, NY, and could deliver within reasonable distance in northern/central NJ, Hudson valley, or most points between here and Providence, Rhode Island (I am headed that way this weekend, so speak up NOW). Make a reasonable offer off list. Remember, this machine needs some help. Of course, I would not turn away an Ebay sized offer... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Aug 25 18:42:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? Only weenies use desktop card readers. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Aug 25 19:27:06 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:27:06 -0400 Subject: TU60 docs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050825185147.0f270f4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <7b95f0b9132634a889894ce584d02d89@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.16.20050825185147.0f270f4e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050825201814.01e650d0@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:51 PM 8/25/2005, Joe R. wrote: > Do you know what the number is for the Omnibus interface for it? It uses a TA8E, M8331. >I couldn't find anything about the interfaces in the docs that you >posted. Do >you know what OS(s) for the PDP-8A supported it? My PDP-8 handbook does >say that it was available for the 8A but doesn't give details. CAPS-8 supported it; there was also an OS-8 handler. -Rick From kittstr at earthlink.net Thu Aug 25 19:42:00 2005 From: kittstr at earthlink.net (Andrew Strouse) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400 Subject: IBM Convertible 5140 saga References: <200508250415.j7P4FQvZ001374@dewey.classiccmp.org> <430D52D8.5080800@brutman.com> Message-ID: <010701c5a9d6$f936c9a0$019b9b9b@amscomputer> Thanks. I think I have an old ps/2 sitting around here somewhere with a 720k drive. I will try to make the disks again using that after some digging. Thanks again. Andrew Strouse ( kittstr at earthlink.net ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: IBM Convertible 5140 saga > > Andrew, > > This sounds amazingly familiar .. are you writing those diskettes in a > 1.44MB drive? > > Even with the correct double density media I've had trouble writing > double density diskettes using a 1.44MB drive. Try finding a genuine > DOS 3.3 diskette, not a copy made in a 1.44MB drive. Or cut your > diskette images to disk using a genuine 720K drive. That'll probably work. > > (I had similar problems when trying to boot a PCjr using a 720KB > diskette drive. None of the diskettes I made using a 1.44MB drive > worked, even with the correct media. Only diskettes made on a 720KB > drive were bootable.) > > > Mike > > From rcini at optonline.net Thu Aug 25 19:56:21 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:56:21 -0400 Subject: IMSAI score -- continued Message-ID: <004201c5a9d8$f99d1aa0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I received another three boxes of stuff for my IMSAI from my benefactor in Arizona. With this load I got more BYTEs (all spares; a list to follow), 4+ years of Interface Age (1977 - 1981; not a complete run I don't think), and a dual-8" floppy drive unit from Synetic Designs. So, I'm looking for some informational items. How many issues of IA are there and when did the run start/end? Second, does anyone have the manual for this floppy drive system? I downloaded the manual for the FD400 drives but I can't yet locate the manual for the drive cabinet and controller. As always, TIA. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 25 19:58:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? In-Reply-To: <200508252331.j7PNV55G010847@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 25, 5 04:31:05 pm" Message-ID: <200508260058.RAA11740@floodgap.com> > Is anyone on this list an AOL user that I can send a test email to? I want > to find out if I can get email through to AOL. I have an AOL address. Contact me off list. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 20:31:06 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:31:06 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <26c11a640508251831735d86b8@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/05, Stefan wrote: > I just got given two VAX 4000-705's. I still have to pick them up though. > But I was just wondering if anyone has any picture's of one ? > And perhaps tell me something about it ? > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > I've got one clustered with a 4000/500 and a 4000/90a. Nice machines, disks are getting more expensive unless you can find a good qbus scsi card. Mine has run as a web server, but it (along with it's drives) heats my flat up to much to run in the summer. You will probably need a friend to help you pick them up if they have any drives in them. They look like these http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/hapert/page2.html I've had the 500 for a few years now, so any questions I can try and help but between this list, comp.os.vms and the netbsd-vax list every question i've asked has been asked. Although the comp.os.vms list can be quite snotty if you haven't done your homework first. Dan From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Aug 21 08:10:00 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:10:00 -0400 Subject: Heaven and Hell! References: <4304EC2A.7060708@theriver.com> Message-ID: <43087D28.A6EB812F@mindspring.com> Sounds like Joe Rigdon's house ;-) See ya, SteveRob tom ponsford wrote: > Hi ALL! > > I had the good fortune to witness something truly extraordinary yeaterday. > > I imagine there are some on this list that have stumbled on large > collections by > accident or by design, and marvel at thier good fortune and curse their > luck at > not being the owner. > > Well, such a thing happened to me yestrday and I was truly awestruck. > > I had met a retired engineer at the auction I attend religiously at the > University of Arizona. I have been attending these auctions for about 5 > years, there > are some who have been attending for far longer, and also have been > collecting > from other source even longer. > > Roy is such a person. He lives alone in a very large red brick hacienda in a > very lush part of the San Pedro River valley in SE arizona, only a few miles > from me. > > Upon arrival at his home which is at the end of a very muddy and rutted dirt > road, I was greeted by a very large vulture sitting on a telephone pole > outside > the driveway to his house. An omen of things to come? > > I proceeded down the driveway several hundred yard through a huge thicket of > willows and cottonwoods to come upon a HUGE graveyard of old computers, > electronics parts,equipment racks and large piles of junk moldering in > the humid > arizona sun. > > Sitting upright in the mud/grass were the remains of a DG Eclipse, > next to a stack of DEC RL02 disks about three feet high. piles anf piles > of old > dot matrix printers were next to several equipment racks. An old school > bus stood > forlornly by. It was stuffed to the gills with equipment.A hazeltine > terminal/computer half buried in the mud. A Variax? 10KW > > I was greeted by Roy and we entered his house. I should say warehouse, > as the > this house was crammed from floor to ceiling with computers, test > equipment and > electronics gear. The floors were concrete and suported industrial steel > racks > packed full of stuff..in every room save one! > > Have you ever seen people who have collected books or papers and went > overboard..Well imagine this with computers.Not just computers, but old > computers and electronic gear. > > On my hour tour of the premise, I spotted: > > At least three Data General Nova 2 and Nova 3's, with a paper reader and > terminals. All in great condition. One was turned on for me! > > At least two HP 1000 and at least one HP 2100 series. > > Dozens of Tektronix terminals and the early 405xx series computers > > Roomfulls of HP testing and analyzer equipment and so many of the early HP > computers they were too numerous to count. > > Shelves and shelves full of old DG terminals (the oval ones) Ahmdahl > terminals > > At least two ASR 33's and some teletypes that might be even older. > A rack full of a pre WW11 commercial radio transmitter. > WWII and later aviation instruments! > > A TOW missle. (the warhead had been replaced with intrumentation and > there was > no fuel in the missle but the rocket engine was intact) > > A very early laser! > > A shelf crammed with DEC decpacks RK11/RK02 all with RT-11 inscribed on the > sides. A big amount a older DEC documentation! > > Huge bookshelfs full of documentation forTektronics, HP, DEC most > pre-1990 some > pre-80! some pre 70!!! > > A large file cabinet stuffed with new in the box 8" floppies., paper tapes > > 8" inch floppy drives of all makes and models. > > Various disks from HP to DEC to DG.(dozens) > > A room dedicated to electronic testing equipment, mainly HP but also > scores of > others. most pre-1980. dozens of Oscilliscopes. > > A scanning electron microscope! > > Dec VT52, VT100 terminals. It was said there is a VT05? hiding somewhere! > > It was almost too much for me too comprehend. > > I'll be heading over there soon to pick up an RX02 that I spied hiding > in a corner. > > O yeah.. a parting gift included a LSI-11 that looked somewhat complete, > all the > cards. > > There was a unibus pdp11 buried somewhere in the racks of equipment, behind > other racks of equipment. > > There was more stuff that I probably missed or forgot than what I > remembered (I didn't take notes!) > > This may take a while! > > Cheers > > Tom From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Aug 22 10:22:34 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:22:34 -0500 Subject: Found old NCR computer...need info/keyboard In-Reply-To: <4309DD52.3050504@jbrain.com> References: <4309DD52.3050504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I found what I believe to be an NCR Decision Mate V computer. 1 5.25 floppy drive and 1 hard drive. no docs, no keyboard, no disks. Does anyone have info on this computer and any idea how to get a keyboard for it? thanks! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Aug 22 12:11:05 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:11:05 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink pics Message-ID: Sellam wrote: >Damn it. For years I have a box with this stuff in the same place and then I go looking >for it and it's not there anymore. In the course of looking, I happen upon a disk that >was a BIX (Byte Information Exchange) simulation disk that was interesting and put it to >the side, but in the course of moving more boxes around it too disappeared. I seem to >have a Bermuda Triangle of sorts in that particular area of the warehouse. Maybe there is a "California Triangle" where all sorts of old computers are lost. I'll bet the focus is somewhere near Sellam's warehouse. An even better idea would be a "computer maze". In the Midwest they have crop mazes where the farmer mows a path through the corn field to entertain the city folks, who wander around. Sellam could have a computer warehouse maze and we could all wander around looking for lost computers!! Mike From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 22 14:02:08 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:02:08 +0000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: <1124737301.32058.241223519@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20050822225649.IIOU26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On 8/22/05, David Vohs wrote: > > Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just recently > > got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running > > again. > > I do not, sorry. I do have an ancient Connor 3.5" 30MB drive in it, > but I don't think it has a > diagnostic partition > > -ethan Ethan, I keep some of those old stuff By the way, loads of softpaqs on ftp//:ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq When you need to find specific file, open a text called 0000.txt and do a word search to find the file of interest. Attached to this email: the two files to create a diagnostic/setup on one formatted 720K diskette. Cheers, Wizard -------------- next part -------------- SOFTPAQ NUMBER: SP0308.ZIP PART NUMBER: N/A FILE NAME: SP0308.EXE TITLE: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 DP256 720K (3.5 Inch Diskette) VERSION: 8.00 LANGUAGE: English CATEGORY: Diagnostics-Setup DIVISION: Portables, Desktops PRODUCTS AFFECTED: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25, COMPAQ SLT/286, COMPAQ LTE, COMPAQ LTE/286, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286e, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286n OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SYSTEM CONFIGURATION: N/A PREREQUISITES: N/A EFFECTIVE DATE: 23 April 1992 ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTION ALLOWED: Yes SOFTPAQ UTILITY VERSION: 2.02 SUPERSEDES: N/A DESCRIPTION: This 720K DIAGNOSTICS diskette contains SETUP Version 8.00 DP256, INSPECT Version 8.00 DP256 and TEST Version 8.00 DP256 for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. SETUP initializes the system configuration memory. INSPECT provides information about the current operating system environment, including the contents of the operating system startup files, the current memory configuration, and the ROM versions installed in the system. TEST identifies and tests the components of your system. This version is intended for testing older ISA machines with at least 256 kbytes of memory and a 3.5" diskette drive A:. 720K 3.5 Inch Version 8.00 DP256 supports: ISA machines with only 256 kbytes memory ISA machines with a 720K-kbyte 3.5 Inch drive A: and at least 256 kbytes memory. Any of the following products with at least 256k memory: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25, COMPAQ SLT/286, COMPAQ LTE, COMPAQ LTE/286, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286e, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286n Copyright 1997, 1998 Compaq Computer Corporation. All rights reserved. Product names mentioned herein may be trademarks and/or registered trademarks of their respective companies -------------- next part -------------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: SP0308.ZIP Date: 22 Aug 2005, 18:58 Size: 453196 bytes. Type: ZIP-archive From phoenix at nidhog.net Mon Aug 22 21:07:45 2005 From: phoenix at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:07:45 -0400 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 8/22/05, David Vohs wrote: > > Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just recently > > got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running > > again. > > I do not, sorry. I do have an ancient Connor 3.5" 30MB drive in it, > but I don't think it has a > diagnostic partition > > -ethan These files are what you are looking for: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 DP256 720K (3.5 Inch Diskette) DOWNLOAD: SP0308.zip 443 K EFFECTIVE DATE: 23 April 1992 VERSION: 8.00 LANGUAGE: English OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SUPERSEDES: N/A DESCRIPTION: This 720K DIAGNOSTICS diskette contains SETUP Version 8.00 DP256, INSPECT Version 8.00 DP256 and TEST Version 8.00 DP256 for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.txt ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 Revision B (5? Inch Diskettes) DOWNLOAD: SP0316.zip 458 K EFFECTIVE DATE: 20 May 1992 VERSION: 8.00 Rev. B LANGUAGE: English OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SUPERSEDES: N/Ax DESCRIPTION: Compaq Diagnostics 8.00 Revision B for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.txt ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.zip Service Quick Reference Guide: SLT/286 Introduction The Service Quick Reference Guide contains spare part numbers for field replaceable units, as well as technical and support information including memory upgrade charts to assist in the repair and up-keep of your Compaq computer. The Memory Upgrade Charts show the memory configurations for your Compaq computer. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/supportinformation/techpubs/qrg/slt286.pdf I also have a 1K file called fix.com that temporarily fixes bugs caused by the RTC battery failure. You run it and then press any key to do a soft reboot. The file is here: http://www.swtpc.com/temp/fix.com Regards, Bill Dawson From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Aug 23 13:54:31 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:54:31 -0500 Subject: Found old NCR computer...need info/keyboard Message-ID: I found what I believe to be an NCR Decision Mate V computer. 1 5.25 floppy drive and 1 hard drive. no docs, no keyboard, no disks. Does anyone have info on this computer and any idea how to get a keyboard for it? thanks! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Aug 23 13:20:14 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:20:14 +0000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <1124820407.12435.241308337@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: Message-ID: <20050823221452.KFIO27508.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Damned! Oh well, thanks anyway. > > I definitely want to try to get mine running again. It looks like mine > has had some upgrades done to it, including: > > Bigger HD (100mb) > More memory (4 Mb Kingston Memory SIMMs, three of 'em!) > 80-287 MCP > > No docking station for it though! X-( Vohs, Attached to this is two files, need 720K diskette to create this diagnostic disk. The floppy drive is standard compaq issue 26 pin type, any from old compaq 286, 386 and 486 desktops that has this floppy will work, even the eject button is same shape & location. 1.44MB (green), 720K (amber) when FD LED lights up. Cheers, Wizard -------------- next part -------------- SOFTPAQ NUMBER: SP0308.ZIP PART NUMBER: N/A FILE NAME: SP0308.EXE TITLE: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 DP256 720K (3.5 Inch Diskette) VERSION: 8.00 LANGUAGE: English CATEGORY: Diagnostics-Setup DIVISION: Portables, Desktops PRODUCTS AFFECTED: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25, COMPAQ SLT/286, COMPAQ LTE, COMPAQ LTE/286, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286e, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286n OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SYSTEM CONFIGURATION: N/A PREREQUISITES: N/A EFFECTIVE DATE: 23 April 1992 ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTION ALLOWED: Yes SOFTPAQ UTILITY VERSION: 2.02 SUPERSEDES: N/A DESCRIPTION: This 720K DIAGNOSTICS diskette contains SETUP Version 8.00 DP256, INSPECT Version 8.00 DP256 and TEST Version 8.00 DP256 for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. SETUP initializes the system configuration memory. INSPECT provides information about the current operating system environment, including the contents of the operating system startup files, the current memory configuration, and the ROM versions installed in the system. TEST identifies and tests the components of your system. This version is intended for testing older ISA machines with at least 256 kbytes of memory and a 3.5" diskette drive A:. 720K 3.5 Inch Version 8.00 DP256 supports: ISA machines with only 256 kbytes memory ISA machines with a 720K-kbyte 3.5 Inch drive A: and at least 256 kbytes memory. Any of the following products with at least 256k memory: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25, COMPAQ SLT/286, COMPAQ LTE, COMPAQ LTE/286, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286e, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286n Copyright 1997, 1998 Compaq Computer Corporation. All rights reserved. Product names mentioned herein may be trademarks and/or registered trademarks of their respective companies -------------- next part -------------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: SP0308.ZIP Date: 22 Aug 2005, 18:58 Size: 453196 bytes. Type: ZIP-archive From phoenix at nidhog.net Tue Aug 23 21:05:34 2005 From: phoenix at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:05:34 -0400 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 8/22/05, David Vohs wrote: > > Hey Ethan, do you have a copy of the Diagnostic disk? I just recently > > got one of these old gems & am trying to get it back up and running > > again. > > I do not, sorry. I do have an ancient Connor 3.5" 30MB drive in it, > but I don't think it has a > diagnostic partition > > -ethan These files are what you are looking for: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 DP256 720K (3.5 Inch Diskette) DOWNLOAD: SP0308.zip 443 K EFFECTIVE DATE: 23 April 1992 VERSION: 8.00 LANGUAGE: English OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SUPERSEDES: N/A DESCRIPTION: This 720K DIAGNOSTICS diskette contains SETUP Version 8.00 DP256, INSPECT Version 8.00 DP256 and TEST Version 8.00 DP256 for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.txt ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0308.zip SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 Revision B (5? Inch Diskettes) DOWNLOAD: SP0316.zip 458 K EFFECTIVE DATE: 20 May 1992 VERSION: 8.00 Rev. B LANGUAGE: English OPERATING SYSTEM: N/A SUPERSEDES: N/Ax DESCRIPTION: Compaq Diagnostics 8.00 Revision B for Discontinued Products with at least 256k memory. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.txt ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.zip Service Quick Reference Guide: SLT/286 Introduction The Service Quick Reference Guide contains spare part numbers for field replaceable units, as well as technical and support information including memory upgrade charts to assist in the repair and up-keep of your Compaq computer. The Memory Upgrade Charts show the memory configurations for your Compaq computer. ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/supportinformation/techpubs/qrg/slt286.pdf I also have a 1K file called fix.com that temporarily fixes bugs caused by the RTC battery failure. You run it and then press any key to do a soft reboot. The file is here: http://www.swtpc.com/temp/fix.com Regards, Bill Dawson From glg at grebus.com Tue Aug 23 23:53:56 2005 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary Grebus) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:53:56 -0400 Subject: Vax 6320 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> References: <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1124859236.1961.43.camel@w4.grebus.com> Wow, what a great collection of hardware! I'd really love to find one of those machines some day. I wrote part of the console firmware for the 6200's and 6300's. Selftest runs initially using RAM in the System Support Chip on the CPU board. At some point though, the CPU's need to communicate through memory to run extended selftest. It sounds like that's where you're seeing the failure. I don't remember what those LED codes mean...hopefully you can find some documentation. Just to be sure. you might check the memory interleave configuration from the console. With 3 modules, you might have to set them all non-interleaved. It might be difficult getting NetBSD running on that system since DEC was particularly paranoid about giving out the programming details for hardware in those days. At least you have DEBNI's (which were reliable, unlike the earlier DEBNA's). Oh, and just to tie this into another thread...much of the VAX 6000 series console firmware was written in BLISS-32 :-) BLISS could do JSB/RSB subroutine linkage, which was useful, since the firmware had only 1 Kbyte of RAM available for variables and stack. There were also some truly amazing macros that generated the parse tables for the command language. Good luck! Gary From sdc695 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 24 03:50:19 2005 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Qualstar 1260S tape drives Message-ID: <20050824085020.40313.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> I recently obtained a Qualstar 1260S tape drive. It looks like a wonderful device, and ought to work under Linux (SCSI interface). I've got a couple of questions: 1) Does anyone have a manual for this beast? Qualstar disavows all knowledge of it. You would expect they MIGHT have a manual... 2) I opened it up to remove the SCSI terminator (sucessfully), and looked at the SCSI to Pertec interface board (has buffers, etc..). It looks like the board has options and indicators, and includes a very large pushbutton intended for something. Any info on the options available here? 3) I hooked it up to my Linux box on a SCSI adapter. The driver identified the drive as an "HP 7980S" of all things. Is this "normal"? 4) Lacking a manual, does anyone have setup information for running this under Linux? 5) I've read that there exists someway to get 800 bpi NRZI tapes read with this drive. Any clues here? Is a seperate board needed?? I may not need any information to get something operational, but I'd really like to have some "background" information. p.s. Sending the manual to bitsavers would be a nice gesture. Save postage and all that. Thanks. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Aug 24 10:46:03 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:46:03 -0500 Subject: Found old NCR computer...need info/keyboard Message-ID: I found what I believe to be an NCR Decision Mate V computer. 1 5.25 floppy drive and 1 hard drive. no docs, no keyboard, no disks. Does anyone have info on this computer and any idea how to get a keyboard for it? thanks! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From blarson at blars.org Wed Aug 24 15:57:37 2005 From: blarson at blars.org (Blars Blarson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:57:37 -0700 Subject: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles Message-ID: <20050824205737.GA24222@blars.org> I'm trying to reduce the clutter at my house, and would like to get rid of some of the old junk I never expect to use: Sun: Sun 4/260 nonworking with 128 MB, cg9, cg3, etc. Sparcstation 5 Sparcstation classic Sparcstation 20 Sun 19" monitor Type 4 keyboards Frank Hogg Labs os9/68k systems: one 68000 system, no hard drive one 68020 system Radio Shack Color Computer, modded with expantion stuff Bits: Exabyte 8200 50 pin scsi hard drives Prime 2250 Power supply Prime 2250 disk drives (14" sasi?) aui trancivers Local pickup only on the heavy stuff. -- Blars Blarson blarson at blars.org http://www.blars.org/blars.html With Microsoft, failure is not an option. It is a standard feature. From glg at grebus.com Thu Aug 25 00:24:03 2005 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary L. Grebus) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:24:03 -0400 Subject: VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1124947443.5381.49.camel@gate.grebus.com> The output from the failure case shows that the memories passed their onboard selftest and moved on to the CPU/Memory Interaction tests. If I decoded the LED's correctly the failure codes correspond to T0008 Write Buffer Switch and Purge Test T0013 Hit on Disabled Tag Store Test That doesn't ring any bells for me. Try just a single CPU, the suspect memory board, and the 2 DWMBA/A's on the bus. If it fails, move the memory board to a different slot (a bad slot will cause hangs). If it still fails, then you have a bad board (I'd guess a broken XMI interface given the test failures above). BTW, the only XMI config rules I remember are: 1. CPU start in the lowest numbered slot and go up. 2. DWMBA/A's go in the highest numbered slot and go down (must be one installed). 3. Memory can go anywhere in between. re: DEBNI The DEBNI probably supports MOP boot (the DECnet boot protocol) and MOP console in firmware. There were just a few register bits that needed to be set to trigger a boot (assuming you could find MOP server code around somewhere). That was definitely true of the DEBNA. I vaguely recall that someone at CMU might have done a DEBNI driver for Mach (not for the VAX, but for the DECsystem 5800, which used the same I/O gear). But, they might never have had permission to release it. /gary From bepain at madwaves.com Thu Aug 25 10:39:16 2005 From: bepain at madwaves.com (Brice Epain) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:16 +0200 Subject: pb to find the NEC FIP16A5R datasheet Message-ID: Hi Tony, You could find the NEC FIP16A5R datasheet for this component?. If yes, please can you send by e-mail this datasheet. Also I will like to buy 2 or 3 FIP16A5R. Can you tell me where I can find this one?. Best regards, Brice. From bepain at madwaves.com Thu Aug 25 10:43:50 2005 From: bepain at madwaves.com (Brice Epain) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:43:50 +0200 Subject: TR: pb to find the NEC FIP16A5R datasheet Message-ID: Hi Tony, You could find the NEC FIP16A5R datasheet for this component?. If yes, please can you send by e-mail this datasheet. Also I will like to buy 2 or 3 FIP16A5R. Can you tell me where I can find this one?. Best regards, Brice. Subject: Re: Newbrain Display From: ard(-at-)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Id: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:58:48 +0000 (GMT) > > Near to the Nec FIP display in the Newbrain computer there is a little > circuit with a componet with 10 pins where you can read: > > 27 > CD-1867N > TDK > JAPAN I haev the official Newbrain scheamtics here.... That component is probably a transformer. The module it's part of is a DC-DC converter to run the display. It has, apparently, 7 connections : 1) +5V input 2, 5) linked together, seem to be a -ve output (22uF to ground 3) Output,also -ve (22uF togoround, also goes to Vbb on the DS8881, and the pull-downs on the segment (anode) leads) 4,6 ) Heater outputs to the display > > Somebody know what is this component? I think it is used to control voltage > supplied to de display. > > Somebody have the NEC FIP16A5R datasheet? It is the 16 character display in > the Newbrain AD I can at least tell you : Heater : 1,37 Grids (digit select) : 3,5,7,9,14,16,18,20,22,24,27,29,31,33,35 Anodes (segments) : 4,6,8,10,13,15,17,21,23,25,28,30,32,34 -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 25 21:16:31 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike, A" at "Aug 22, 5 12:11:05 pm" Message-ID: <200508260216.TAA12340@floodgap.com> > An even better idea would be a "computer maze". In the Midwest they > have crop mazes where the farmer mows a path through the corn field to > entertain the city folks, who wander around. > Sellam could have a computer warehouse maze and we could all wander > around looking for lost computers!! Dibs on the Apple I. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From KParker at workcover.com Thu Aug 25 21:28:18 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:58:18 +0930 Subject: PDP11 stuff in OZ Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D324@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Anyone who is interested in this (and would like my help collecting) can I ask you to negotiate directly with the uni concerned and advise them that if successful you MAY have someone in Australia who can assist with collection (and then keep me in the loop). I've had no response from then to my email and I suspect it might be an old web page. Has anyone else heard. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wai-Sun Chia Sent: Tuesday, 23 August 2005 3:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP11 stuff in OZ Oops...pressed send too soon.. Might as well grab the 11/50 memories if possible 11/40/45/50 various core memory 11/50 fastbus memory On 8/23/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 8/22/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > I am located in OZ but about a 10-12 hour trip away from where this > > guy is - I've just fired off an email myself expressing some > > interest. If I get what I am looking for I may have to make a trip > > over there and may have some capacity to get other stuff. > > > > Kevin, > I'm located in KL, Malaysia, and am interested in the following stuff, > but don't know whether you are able to ship it or not...but here goes > any way: > > PDP8/e CPU > PDP8/e memory > PDP8/e various > RK11-D > RK11-D complete with backplane > RL11 controller (2) > > PDP11/50 in rack (I wish but I can't take the rack, it'l cost me > thousands of bucks to ship) > > RK05 absolute air filters (HEPA), unused (4) RK05J (3) > > See what you are able to ship, and we can take it from there.. > Thanks for the service offer, though. > > /wai-sun > ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 25 21:39:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:39:55 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c5a9e7$7d91e4e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Brad wrote.... > Remember punchcards? Yes. > Does anyone read them these days? Yes. > I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. I use a punch card reader. > Someone approached me with some tapes to read and they also had 2 boxes > of cards. They should use a punch card reader to read them. > I remember a nifty desktop card reader attached to a PDP-8/L once. I > never used it but it sure seems like it would be easy/fun to wire it up > to something more modern. Nah, wire it up to the original system it was designed for! > Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? Yes, on both counts :) The documation readers are somewhat available nowdays, coming out of election use. I believe early HP's used the documation (never checked that myself). However, HP did actually produce a punch card reader, model 7261 or 7621 I seem to recall. I have one, and it's not terribly far down my "to be restored" list. I actually used this same unit in high school on the HP2000, so it WILL get restored someday. Many fond memories of this unit. Hope I have enough spare bits to make it run again! Jay West From Mark at Misty.com Thu Aug 25 21:44:22 2005 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:44:22 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <002301c5a9c2$3115a9a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> <002301c5a9c2$3115a9a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <20050826024422.GA10179@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Thu, Aug 25, 2005 at 11:13:14PM +0100, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: ... > Here's the first page I came across with some appropriate > pictures: > > http://www.appelt4u.de/vax/vax4000-500/g-vax4000-500.htm I have a pair of 4000/500s, one up an running VMS right now, but I only have DSSI drives and busses. The SCSI controller in the thing only supports tape, not MSCP functionality needed for disk devices. I started looking into SCSI controllers, but places wanted $500-$1k! If anyone has a hobbyist priced MSCP capable SCSI card such that I connect a modern SCSI disk, I'd be very interested. I also might be open to various trades. Thanks, Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Aug 25 21:55:28 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:55:28 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5a9e7$7d91e4e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200508260305.j7Q35XGK017454@keith.ezwind.net> ... > The documation readers are somewhat available nowdays, coming > out of election use. There have been a bunch coming out on eBay lately but they have been asking $300 & up. I am glad to hear that there is a reason and maybe if there is a flood of them then the price will come down. The Four-Phase Systems IV/70 used to use these to boot a system that was being used for terminal emulation only - had no disk or tapes. Mostly they used the smaller unit that was about 80 cards per minute. The ones showing up on eBay are larger 300 CPM units I think, though just from a distant photo you can't easily distinguish the 600 CPM model. HTH, Gil From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Aug 25 22:00:17 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:00:17 -0700 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: <200508252025.j7PKPau8006172@onyx.spiritone.com> <035601c5a9b9$ce3bda00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <430E85C1.475343A8@msm.umr.edu> I have one of the card readers currently listed on Ebay. It is in perfect condition, and is equiped with RS232 interface, for convenient reading on a PC or whatever. I also have a 129, and 029 punch, with the 129 working well, the 029 untested, (and purchased from above card reader seller a year ago). I recommend his units, they look good. I believe he may list more. Biggest problem to deal with is age of rollers, and since these are taken from recent service, they should last longer than the originals. Main project to use this for, is direct interface into Hercules running MVS 3.8, by the way. Jim John Allain wrote: From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 22:04:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:04:03 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <430E85C1.475343A8@msm.umr.edu> References: <200508252025.j7PKPau8006172@onyx.spiritone.com> <035601c5a9b9$ce3bda00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <430E85C1.475343A8@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 8/25/05, jim stephens wrote: > I have one of the card readers currently listed on Ebay. It is > in perfect condition, and is equiped with RS232 interface, for > convenient reading on a PC or whatever. If I ever get my 029 punch cleaned up and online, I'll be a lot more interested in a reader. Ah, well... another project for another day. -ethan From wpileggi at juno.com Thu Aug 25 22:58:43 2005 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 03:58:43 GMT Subject: 360Kb. 5.25 inch Floppy drives available Message-ID: <20050825.205855.26528.150214@webmail21.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Aug 25 23:23:26 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:23:26 +0200 Subject: Qualstar 1260S tape drives References: <20050824085020.40313.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006001c5a9f5$e7682150$2101a8c0@finans> I have the full documentation for the Qualstar 1052, which AFAIK is the basis for the 1260. I'm presently finding myself again after I reloacted yesterday, so I'll get back later Nico ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Tom Watson" Til: Sendt: 24. august 2005 10:50 Emne: Qualstar 1260S tape drives > I recently obtained a Qualstar 1260S tape drive. It looks like a wonderful > device, and ought to work under Linux (SCSI interface). I've got a couple of > questions: > > 1) Does anyone have a manual for this beast? Qualstar disavows all knowledge > of it. You would expect they MIGHT have a manual... > 2) I opened it up to remove the SCSI terminator (sucessfully), and looked at > the SCSI to Pertec interface board (has buffers, etc..). It looks like > the board has options and indicators, and includes a very large pushbutton > intended for something. Any info on the options available here? > 3) I hooked it up to my Linux box on a SCSI adapter. The driver identified > the drive as an "HP 7980S" of all things. Is this "normal"? > 4) Lacking a manual, does anyone have setup information for running this > under Linux? > 5) I've read that there exists someway to get 800 bpi NRZI tapes read with > this drive. Any clues here? Is a seperate board needed?? > > I may not need any information to get something operational, but I'd really > like to have some "background" information. > > p.s. Sending the manual to bitsavers would be a nice gesture. Save postage > and all that. > > Thanks. > > -- > Tom Watson > tsw at johana.com > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > From news at computercollector.com Thu Aug 25 23:23:51 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:23:51 -0400 Subject: Spam filters catching cctalk messages? Message-ID: <200508260433.j7Q4XJ9P018025@keith.ezwind.net> Lately, a bunch of my cctalk messages got into my spam folder. That never used to happen, and I didn't make any changes locally. Anyone have some insight? Jay? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 25 23:50:00 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:50:00 -0700 Subject: VAX 4k Message-ID: I have one of the 4000/200s, and a single person (or married operating separately) can move them if you pull the drives, power supply, and possibly cards if there are many. It helps to think of the 4200 as a very good BA-4xx MicroVAX rather than a very wussy VAX, as it really has more in common with the Qbus MicroVAX 3xxx machines. Regarding the 4000/705A's- a picture of any BA440 VAX will look like them, not much has changed. I believe the 705A was one of the "server" model VAXen that only shipped with a 2-concurrent user license (maybe single-user?) but close to a VAX 9000 in processor power (slow perepheral interface, though [3.3 MB Qbus and 2 or 4x DSSI.] Would have been nice if DEC had put a high-speed interface beside the Qbus, but there's no point in worrying about it now. I don't think the current hobbyist license enforces the machine-class limitations, so you could use your 4k as a multiuser VMS installation. xBSD doesn't support DSSI currently, and 4.4BSD-QJ doesn't support VAX 4k, so you're pretty much stuck with VMS, but that's not a real limitation. Haven't got mine working yet, but if you need drives investigate a HSC system. Some interface the DSSI bus to SCSI disk arrays. HSD05 comes often as a standalone StorageWorks SBB for the BA5x blocks, and I've seen DEC documentation that indicates you could get an internal model that would connect to the storage backplane. Throw one of those on the middle, and do a DSSI cluster of the two machines, and you'd have one hot system. Enjoy it and use it well. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 25 23:52:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Remember punchcards? Maybe. > Does anyone read them these days? Occasionally. > I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. I grew up with the Apple ][ so I went with what I know. I had a 6522 VIA card I built in a college course years ago. So I managed to interface my Documation M200 (200 cards per minute) to an Apple //e via the 6522 card. I wrote a little driver application that reads an decodes the cards (based on whatever character set I have loaded) and optinally sends the data over a serial port to a waiting PC. I have a laptop running Procomm Plus in logging mode. The Apple //e reads the cards, decodes them, then transmits the entire card over the serial port to the PC at 9600bps. This all happens fast enough to keep up with the 200 CPM rate. > Someone approached me with some tapes to read and they also had 2 boxes > of cards. Let me know if you need assistance with this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Aug 25 23:55:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <17166.10089.733862.513338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > There were several types of card readers for the PDP-11. One is quite > small, fairly slow -- the CR11. The CR11 is a re-badged Documation M200 (200 cards per minute). > The other is somewhat bigger (either > a tabletop model or a freestanding unit, depending on hopper size) and > comparable in speed to mainframe readers -- the CD11. That's probably the M1000 unit (1000 cards per minute). > Either one would do very nicely if you happen to have a PDP11 around. > (Or a VAX? I think VMS had support for them.) Or an Apple ][ with a 6522 VIA adapater ;) Or Brian Knittles way cool USB interface. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 00:07:38 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:07:38 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <20050826024422.GA10179@lucky.misty.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl> <002301c5a9c2$3115a9a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> <20050826024422.GA10179@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: On 8/25/05, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi, > I have a pair of 4000/500s, one up an running VMS right now, but I only > have DSSI drives and busses. The SCSI controller in the thing only > supports tape, not MSCP functionality needed for disk devices. > > I started looking into SCSI controllers, but places wanted $500-$1k! > > If anyone has a hobbyist priced MSCP capable SCSI card such that > I connect a modern SCSI disk, I'd be very interested. I also > might be open to various trades. I am debugging my design (right now). http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/dscn4548.jpg http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/dscn4549.jpg Remember the thread of HP 1650B pod? The board with parallel capactors and resistors is the pod I made from scratch, with the information people provided on this mailing list. It works fine. vax, 9000 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Aug 26 01:08:27 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:08:27 +0200 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am vrijdag, 26.08.05, um 07:07 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb 9000 VAX: > > I am debugging my design (right now). > http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/dscn4548.jpg > http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/dscn4549.jpg > > Way cool design. It even uses a dual triode ! Or would that be a different schematic ? Jos From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 26 02:26:39 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:26:39 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink update Message-ID: <430EC42F.6000701@jbrain.com> Just a quick update for those interested: People Connection is mostly implemented, lacking only LOCATE and ID commands. Auditorium mode is working as well. The original service had a special version of the SW (called the emcee disk) that had extra code to do the moderation for the auditorium, but I figured out a way to support auditorium with just the std disk. I implemented a few IRCisms (/me and /msg) to add some value. Along the way, a QLinker posted that he had written a sniffer while on QLink and had saved a complete Q-Link session. After he found the binary logs, I wrote a util to condense them into a single file, traced the commands, and then modified the utility to actually parse each command. I was thus able to extract 105 text files that the user had viewed that day, and 200 menu items they viewed. I then inserted those into the database, so you can now visit all the areas that user visited that day. Along the way, I found out a few more things: How to send multiple lines of bulletin text to cut down on packets (concat lines with 0xff, upto 127 chars) How to send a System IM (SYSOLM) The command is OT. How to convince the client that there is a next/previous article in a set (parms to KC command) How the file system handed sending data (39 byte chunks for 1st 18 lines, then 117 byte chunks. How to turn on the (+) time indicator on the client A user also found out how to run QLink off of an emulator (VICE) and connect to the server. So, a number of folks are connecting that way. online message and email works, not sure if I stated that in my last note. The server is pretty robust. A user can corrupt their session, but logging out will clean up that session. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From cc at corti-net.de Fri Aug 26 03:56:41 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:56:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Remember punchcards? Why just remember? We're using them on our IBM 1130 and IBM 029 in our museum. > Does anyone read them these days? > I'm just curious if anyone does, and if they do, how they do it. Of course, reading them on the IBM 1442 reader and transfering them to a Unix machine is no problem. We've attached a parallel to RS232 converter to the IBM paper tape punch so we can read the cards and virtually "punch" them to a modern Unix machine, both EBCDIC and binary cards. Christian -- www.computermuseum-stuttgart.de From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 26 05:09:23 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:09:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: <200508251700.j7PH02mP005783@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508251700.j7PH02mP005783@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 Simon Fryer wrote: > On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:22, Joe R. wrote: > > Does anyone recognize this card? > > > Cabling looks like SDI. Barely. It's true that SDI internally are four thin coax cables, but neither connectors, nor much else looks like SDI here. > > > I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or > > manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables connect to > > four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are marked Network > > Ports. see > > > > The BNC connectors are a bit novel if it is SDI. It's not SDI. Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards don't have any identifiers. But was the the DMP-11 or DMR-11 which used coax? It could be one of those. Max 1 Mb/s interface, also for network. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 26 05:13:40 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:13:40 +0200 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: References: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> Am 25 Aug 2005 21:31 meinte Jules Richardson: > > >If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, then I get > > >something different yet again - in the From: field something like: > > >"cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; Jules Richardson > > >[julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" > > Real simple go into your address book and find the > > "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" > > entry and delete it. Somehow you associated that with a CCTALK. > If I'd had more setup time before I left the UK the laptop wouldn't be > running Windows even :) > Thunderbird time I suppose... Well, Thunderbird isn't bad, but way to much of an Outlook rip off. Including lots of unnecersary or disturbing things. And most of all, the bird is quite fat. you'll need some 50+ MB on your drive just for installation and quite some RAM to run it. Not what I'd recommend for a laptop - Except you'll you'll have the dough for the latest hardware gadget. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Aug 26 05:24:27 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:24:27 +0200 Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <53267.82.152.112.73.1125005269.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <430F09FB.4260.24553BB9@localhost> Am 25 Aug 2005 22:27 meinte Witchy: > Now there's a question.... > > Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable > > gimcrack. > I was in a hotel for a week recently doing an HP Proliant course > (recertification) and their internet 'suite' was on the stage of the hotel > ballroom in a suite called 'Gimcrack' *ROTFL* > what does it mean? To my understanding a gimcrack is a rather styled up/flashy/loud object without any real value. Like a fancy and impressive demo of a new OS where all you can do is change the colour ... Well, I guess PowerPoint is the ultimative tool for Gimcrack makers. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 26 05:25:23 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:25:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: <200508252209.j7PM9XAu009837@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508252209.j7PM9XAu009837@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 several wrote: > From: Al Kossow > > > Does anyone recognize this card? > > probably MIL-1553B (1mbit network used in aircraft) Good point. It could definitely be 1553B. > Any vendor? Huntsville Microsystems made interfaces. > Try googling for "1553B unibus" > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Joe R. wrote: > > Does anyone recognize this card? > > > > >>I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or > > > > manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables connect to > > four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are marked Network > > Ports. see > > > > Looks like a CI, no? But I didn't know that you could put a Unibus CI > in a PDP-11. I thought those were for just the VAX-11's. Actually, there never was a Unibus CI. The CI controllers on old VAXen was never on Unibus, but on SBI. The 11/750 had a whole separate cabinet for the CI750, which I think hung off the CMI (or what the bus on the 750 was called). > From: Paul Koning > Subject: Re: DEC network card? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <17165.65022.802145.195486 at gargle.gargle.HOWL> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: > > Simon> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:16:22, Joe R. > Simon> wrote: > >> Does anyone recognize this card? > >> > Simon> Cabling looks like SDI. > > Agreed. Slightly, but I wouldn't draw that conclusion too far. :-) > >> > I found it in a PDP-11/44 but I couldn't find a model number or > >> manufacturer's name on it. The other end of the four red cables > >> connect to four BNC connectors on the back of the cabinet and are > >> marked Network Ports. see > >> > > Simon> The BNC connectors are a bit novel if it is SDI. > > If they were TNC (threaded not bayonet) I'd suspect it to be a CI > interface card (from an HSC50 or the like). Ummm. No dice. No HSC ever used Unibus, and since this a Unibus machine... Also, the connectors are very oddly marked if it were CI. > It doesn't look like a DEC board (unless the digital logo is on the > other side). The cable attachment for those coax cables doesn't have > a DEC look to it, either. And the picture of the back has a mil-spec > look to it. I wonder if this is a military databus interface. That would go well with the previous guess of MIL-1553B, which I think is probably the right guess. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 06:27:07 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:27:07 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Altair 680 Message-ID: <430EFC8B.8070908@comcast.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005 From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 06:40:53 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:40:53 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Altair 680 Message-ID: <430EFFC5.1030300@comcast.net> Hi, I was wondering if anyone might know where I can get the artwork on the front panel restored for my Altair 680. This was an original computer my late brother bought as a kit back in the 70's. I helped him build this and we sure had some fun programming this. I'm finally getting around to restore this. I dug it out from the last trip visiting them. All my stuff was stored in their garage since we moved.. The logo silkscreen has faded away. I was hoping there is some way to restore this, either by replacing the front panel or getting this repainted(or silkscreened). In the meantime, I can get the hardware cleaned up and hopefully get this to run again. thanks, =Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005 From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 26 08:03:49 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:03:49 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-705 References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050825235543.030f4350@pop.xs4all.nl><002301c5a9c2$3115a9a0$5b01a8c0@pc1><20050826024422.GA10179@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: <005501c5aa3e$9abd03e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> If anyone has a hobbyist priced MSCP capable SCSI card such >> that I connect a modern SCSI disk, I'd be very interested. > I am debugging my design (right now). > http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/dscn4549.jpg We who are about to buy, salute you! John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 26 08:20:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:20:45 -0400 Subject: DECassette questions References: <3.0.6.16.20050825161644.2557c1e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <430E49EC.3000504@theriver.com> Message-ID: <17167.5933.340649.885978@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "tom" == tom ponsford writes: tom> A somewhat related question: >> What I have is an industry-standard data cassette - they look >> almost exactly like home audio cassettes except for the 2mm notch >> in the top middle of the case, and they typically have red or >> white plastic flaps rather than bust-out-tabs for write protect - >> i.e. you can write-enable a tape by flipping the flap over the >> hole again. >> tom> I just found a data casette system I'm trying to find info on tom> and it uses the same cassette with the 2mm notch. The casette tom> labeled as a DC-40FL. tom> The cassettes go into a tape machine made by MFE industries an tom> MFE 2500. tom> The machine has 6 toggles: local copy, rewind, on line, binary, tom> send, receive. A rotary baud rate selector: 110,300, 1200, 2400 tom> and several lights: online, binary, send, recieve tom> On the back there are, what appears are two serial port tom> connections a 25 pin male connector labeled MODEM ans a 25 pin tom> female, labeled TERMINAL. Sounds vaguely like the dual cassette decks on the TI Silent 730 -- a mid 1970s terminal, 300 baud, printed on thermal paper. The ones we had (in college) mostly were the kind with the cassette decks. The notion was that they were replacements for the old paper tape on oru teletypes. You could even control them from the host, via control codes of one kind or another. I started writing a simple "PIP" program for that, but I don't think it ever finished -- those things were clunky enough and slow enough that it just didn't seem to be worth the effort. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 26 08:38:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:38:34 -0400 Subject: DEC network card? References: <200508251700.j7PH02mP005783@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17167.7002.486631.902286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist writes: Johnny> Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards Johnny> don't have any identifiers. But was the the DMP-11 or DMR-11 Johnny> which used coax? It could be one of those. Max 1 Mb/s Johnny> interface, also for network. No, that doesn't fit. The DDCMP "local mode" interfaces, coax at up to 1 Mb/s, DMC, DMR, DMP, or DMV, all are single line. So they use one pair of coax, not two. Also, the standard back panel for those uses a 4 pin plastic circular connector, not proper coax connectors. paul From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 26 08:43:46 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:43:46 -0400 Subject: DEC network card? References: <200508251700.j7PH02mP005783@dewey.classiccmp.org> <17167.7002.486631.902286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00ea01c5aa44$2f09da00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Johnny> Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards . . . > No, that doesn't fit. The DDCMP "local mode" interfaces, coax at up Wasn't this from the GenRad machine? That might be a clue. John A. From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 26 08:44:35 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:44:35 -0400 Subject: VAX 4k References: Message-ID: <00eb01c5aa44$4c910e40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> So far everybody responding mave made these sound heavier than they could be seen. The combination of low center of gravity, great handles and small cross-sectional area make for good lifting. I routinely walk them up stairs and do a 30" lift onto my car gate with only the smallest difficulty. I'm a tall but not especially strong type. Very easy to handle for the weight. I should say that I have one microVAX 3400 here (northeast) for a good cause. John A. and I would rate a Fujitsu Eagle a backbuster. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Aug 26 09:05:34 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:05:34 -0400 Subject: Spam filters catching cctalk messages? In-Reply-To: <200508260433.j7Q4XJ9P018025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050826094306.03aefeb8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that 'Computer Collector Newsletter' may have mentioned these words: >Lately, a bunch of my cctalk messages got into my spam folder. > >That never used to happen, and I didn't make any changes locally. I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but that's about as useful as saying "My car was running fine right up until it quit. Why?" >Anyone have some insight? Jay? We might if you actually gave us some useful information, like: 1) What email client are you using, and what version thereof? a) ThunderChicken b) OutHouse/LookOut Express c) Mutt d) Eudora e) Other 2) What spam filter(s) are you using, and what version thereof? a) ThunderChicken b) SpamAssassin c) Other 3) What rulesets/scores are setting off the "spam-alarm?" These could be found either in extra headers of the message, or in logfiles, depending on your setup. This info would give those of us who route mail for a living a *lot* more insight as to what's happening and why... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 10:04:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:04:40 Subject: Heaven and Hell! In-Reply-To: <43087D28.A6EB812F@mindspring.com> References: <4304EC2A.7060708@theriver.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826100440.1a2f2430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:10 AM 8/21/05 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: >Sounds like Joe Rigdon's house ;-) > >See ya, >SteveRob Yes, it does :-) But you haven't seen it since I added all the DEC stuff. Joe > > >tom ponsford wrote: > >> Hi ALL! >> >> I had the good fortune to witness something truly extraordinary yeaterday. >> >> I imagine there are some on this list that have stumbled on large >> collections by >> accident or by design, and marvel at thier good fortune and curse their >> luck at >> not being the owner. >> >> Well, such a thing happened to me yestrday and I was truly awestruck. >> >> I had met a retired engineer at the auction I attend religiously at the >> University of Arizona. I have been attending these auctions for about 5 >> years, there >> are some who have been attending for far longer, and also have been >> collecting >> from other source even longer. >> >> Roy is such a person. He lives alone in a very large red brick hacienda in a >> very lush part of the San Pedro River valley in SE arizona, only a few miles >> from me. >> >> Upon arrival at his home which is at the end of a very muddy and rutted dirt >> road, I was greeted by a very large vulture sitting on a telephone pole >> outside >> the driveway to his house. An omen of things to come? >> >> I proceeded down the driveway several hundred yard through a huge thicket of >> willows and cottonwoods to come upon a HUGE graveyard of old computers, >> electronics parts,equipment racks and large piles of junk moldering in >> the humid >> arizona sun. >> >> Sitting upright in the mud/grass were the remains of a DG Eclipse, >> next to a stack of DEC RL02 disks about three feet high. piles anf piles >> of old >> dot matrix printers were next to several equipment racks. An old school >> bus stood >> forlornly by. It was stuffed to the gills with equipment.A hazeltine >> terminal/computer half buried in the mud. A Variax? 10KW >> >> I was greeted by Roy and we entered his house. I should say warehouse, >> as the >> this house was crammed from floor to ceiling with computers, test >> equipment and >> electronics gear. The floors were concrete and suported industrial steel >> racks >> packed full of stuff..in every room save one! >> >> Have you ever seen people who have collected books or papers and went >> overboard..Well imagine this with computers.Not just computers, but old >> computers and electronic gear. >> >> On my hour tour of the premise, I spotted: >> >> At least three Data General Nova 2 and Nova 3's, with a paper reader and >> terminals. All in great condition. One was turned on for me! >> >> At least two HP 1000 and at least one HP 2100 series. >> >> Dozens of Tektronix terminals and the early 405xx series computers >> >> Roomfulls of HP testing and analyzer equipment and so many of the early HP >> computers they were too numerous to count. >> >> Shelves and shelves full of old DG terminals (the oval ones) Ahmdahl >> terminals >> >> At least two ASR 33's and some teletypes that might be even older. >> A rack full of a pre WW11 commercial radio transmitter. >> WWII and later aviation instruments! >> >> A TOW missle. (the warhead had been replaced with intrumentation and >> there was >> no fuel in the missle but the rocket engine was intact) >> >> A very early laser! >> >> A shelf crammed with DEC decpacks RK11/RK02 all with RT-11 inscribed on the >> sides. A big amount a older DEC documentation! >> >> Huge bookshelfs full of documentation forTektronics, HP, DEC most >> pre-1990 some >> pre-80! some pre 70!!! >> >> A large file cabinet stuffed with new in the box 8" floppies., paper tapes >> >> 8" inch floppy drives of all makes and models. >> >> Various disks from HP to DEC to DG.(dozens) >> >> A room dedicated to electronic testing equipment, mainly HP but also >> scores of >> others. most pre-1980. dozens of Oscilliscopes. >> >> A scanning electron microscope! >> >> Dec VT52, VT100 terminals. It was said there is a VT05? hiding somewhere! >> >> It was almost too much for me too comprehend. >> >> I'll be heading over there soon to pick up an RX02 that I spied hiding >> in a corner. >> >> O yeah.. a parting gift included a LSI-11 that looked somewhat complete, >> all the >> cards. >> >> There was a unibus pdp11 buried somewhere in the racks of equipment, behind >> other racks of equipment. >> >> There was more stuff that I probably missed or forgot than what I >> remembered (I didn't take notes!) >> >> This may take a while! >> >> Cheers >> >> Tom > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 10:12:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:12:40 Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: <00ea01c5aa44$2f09da00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200508251700.j7PH02mP005783@dewey.classiccmp.org> <17167.7002.486631.902286@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826101240.10bf996e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:43 AM 8/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >Johnny> Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards >. . . >> No, that doesn't fit. The DDCMP "local mode" interfaces, coax at up > > >Wasn't this from the GenRad machine? That might be a clue. Yes it probably was a GenRad Machine. Many of the puters from this source were. Did GenRad have their own non-standard network? I'll look at the connectors more closely but I'm fairly sure that they're not MIL-STD-1553 connectors. I have several 3rd party 1153 cards for DECs so I am familar with them and the connectors. I would have checked it more thoroughly when I unloaded it but by that time I was sweating so bad that I could see any more and I was dripping sweat all over everything so I had to quit. Florida summer heat and humidity are a killer! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 10:17:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:17:46 Subject: DECassette pictures Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826101746.1a2fd9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FYI: Frank Arnold recognized my description immediately and sent me this: "Deccasette should be TU60, see: http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0870.JPG http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0871.JPG http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0872.JPG http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0874.JPG And yes I know this beast pretty well, more than I liked in the old days. DEC made CAPS-11 "operating-system" especially arount this peripheral, basically the papertape programming software on casettes. I'm not aware of any surviving copy of this..." From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 26 09:24:46 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: Scanners In-Reply-To: <200508260220.j7Q2KEAm017787@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508261425.j7QEOiWZ029549@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "My problem with HP scanners isn't with the hardware -- it's usually quite good -- but with the TWAIN driver and/or scanning software you have to use. My preservation work involves scanning a lot of silkscreened material, like software box covers and magazine ads, and I've found that the best way to deal with that is to use the scanner software's built-in de-screening process -- except, unless I'm missing something, HP's software doesn't have any." The software for the high-end HP scanners has descreening, although I'm not sure about the low-end or all-in-one multifunction units. On the 5470/5490 that I was discussing, the software is "HP PrecisionScan Pro 3.1" and the descreen option is under "Advanced". Now as to how well it works, that is a bit subjective, but the option is present. Barry Watzman From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 10:04:44 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:04:44 -0400 Subject: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <20050824205737.GA24222@blars.org> References: <20050824205737.GA24222@blars.org> Message-ID: <430F2F8C.5070307@gmail.com> Blars Blarson wrote: > I'm trying to reduce the clutter at my house, and would like to get > rid of some of the old junk I never expect to use: > > Sun: > Sun 4/260 nonworking with 128 MB, cg9, cg3, etc. > Sparcstation 5 > Sparcstation classic > Sparcstation 20 > Sun 19" monitor > Type 4 keyboards > > Frank Hogg Labs os9/68k systems: > one 68000 system, no hard drive > one 68020 system > > Radio Shack Color Computer, modded with expantion stuff > > Bits: > Exabyte 8200 > 50 pin scsi hard drives > Prime 2250 Power supply > Prime 2250 disk drives (14" sasi?) > aui trancivers > > Local pickup only on the heavy stuff. > Where are you located? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 10:06:13 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:06:13 -0400 Subject: VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module In-Reply-To: <1124947443.5381.49.camel@gate.grebus.com> References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> <1124947443.5381.49.camel@gate.grebus.com> Message-ID: <430F2FE5.3070001@gmail.com> Gary L. Grebus wrote: > re: DEBNI > The DEBNI probably supports MOP boot (the DECnet boot protocol) and MOP > console in firmware. There were just a few register bits that needed to > be set to trigger a boot (assuming you could find MOP server code around > somewhere). That was definitely true of the DEBNA. There is actually a bit of variety in open-source or otherwise available MOP server software around today. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 26 10:18:04 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:18:04 -0500 Subject: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <430F2F8C.5070307@gmail.com> References: <20050824205737.GA24222@blars.org> <430F2F8C.5070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200508261018.04705.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 26 August 2005 10:04, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Blars Blarson wrote: > > I'm trying to reduce the clutter at my house, and would like to get > > rid of some of the old junk I never expect to use: > > Where are you located? Erm, look at the subject again: Subject: Re: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles I think that he's probably talking about the one in California. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 26 10:55:06 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:55:06 +0100 Subject: Wyse WY-520 problem (OT?) In-Reply-To: <200508261018.04705.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200508261605.j7QG5Buq024138@keith.ezwind.net> Not sure if the WY-520 is off-topic or not, I've no idea how old it is... In case it is on topic, I'll ask anyway :) I've a WY-520 here, which won't keep its settings if turned off for more than a certain (undetermined) period of time. I'm guessing there should be a battery backup in it, which has gone flat. Is this a user servicable item (i.e. can I change the battery, even if I need to do soldering)? If so, how does one remove the back without destroying things? I've undone the one visible screw, but the back resisted my attempts to release it, and I don't want to force it in case I break something - any tricks? TIA, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/82 - Release Date: 25/08/2005 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 26 10:55:18 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:55:18 +0200 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <17166.10089.733862.513338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508252007.j7PK7jeJ002674@mwave.heeltoe.com> <17166.10089.733862.513338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050826175518.6b933b7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:17:45 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > And of course there are some big machines around with card readers... > The folks at www.cray-cyber.org have one, judging by the photos, > though it isn't clear whether it is hooked up. Last time I was down there in that basement it was hooked up. We tried to read some batches, but it didn't work well as the reader needed some readjustment of the feeder mechanics. No big deal. So I expect it to be in working order by now. At the VCF Europa 2004 you could punch cards with FORTRAN programms at the exhibition hall. The batches where transfered to the Cray-Cyber Compute Center by car, read with the reader mentioned above, processed and a few hours later you got the print out from your job. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Aug 26 10:56:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:56:14 -0400 Subject: VAX 6320 inventory, and faulty memory module References: <26c11a6405062311536ad7665e@mail.gmail.com> <20050623210951.GP30488@lug-owl.de> <20050624165006.GW30488@lug-owl.de> <20050818205408.GB24222@lug-owl.de> <20050820062708.GA13517@lug-owl.de> <20050824192105.GM13517@lug-owl.de> <1124947443.5381.49.camel@gate.grebus.com> <430F2FE5.3070001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17167.15262.403817.237109@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Gary L. Grebus wrote: >> re: DEBNI The DEBNI probably supports MOP boot (the DECnet boot >> protocol) and MOP console in firmware. There were just a few >> register bits that needed to be set to trigger a boot (assuming >> you could find MOP server code around somewhere). That was >> definitely true of the DEBNA. Sridhar> There is actually a bit of variety in open-source or Sridhar> otherwise available MOP server software around today. Yes, and the MOP protocol spec is available on the net. (I can help with questions; I owned that spec for a while.) paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 26 11:02:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:02:27 +0100 Subject: Spam filters catching cctalk messages? In-Reply-To: <200508260433.j7Q4XJ9P018025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Lately, a bunch of my cctalk messages got into my spam folder. > > That never used to happen, and I didn't make any changes locally. Every so often that happens to me with Yahoo as the relay; they change their spam filters slightly and it starts trapping a few classiccmp messages (although not nearly all). I end up having to go in via the web interface, receive a single classiccmp message and flag it as 'not spam' - then it'll work fine again for all classiccmp messages for a few more months before the cycle repeats. So, possibly a 'problem' with your ISP / mail provider? cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 11:49:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Do small desktop card readers exist anymore? Anyone got one? > > Only weenies use desktop card readers. Yeah, but I taste good. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 11:50:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? In-Reply-To: <200508260058.RAA11740@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Is anyone on this list an AOL user that I can send a test email to? I want > > to find out if I can get email through to AOL. > > I have an AOL address. Contact me off list. Wow, you're actually willing to admit this publicly? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 11:51:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Found old NCR computer...need info/keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, Bob Brown wrote: > I found what I believe to be an NCR Decision Mate V computer. 1 5.25 > floppy drive and 1 hard drive. > > no docs, no keyboard, no disks. > > Does anyone have info on this computer and any idea how to get a > keyboard for it? I've got one. It's a PC clone that runs DOS (and a versiopn of CP/M-86 as well). Does it have a standard PC-XT keyboard connector? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 11:53:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > Sellam could have a computer warehouse maze and we could all wander > around looking for lost computers!! You mean I could charge admission to let people into this mess? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 26 12:00:14 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Aug 26, 5 09:50:45 am" Message-ID: <200508261700.KAA13082@floodgap.com> > > I have an AOL address. Contact me off list. > > Wow, you're actually willing to admit this publicly? :) The other shocking part is that I don't mind AOL, despite the price and flaws. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Aug 26 12:01:25 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:01:25 -0500 Subject: AMP Comboline catalog info? In-Reply-To: <016101c5a466$feff97b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.16.20050817132053.402727f8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200508171428.36427.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050826115506.07dc92e0@mail.ubanproductions.com> A friend of mine is looking for some obsolete AMP Comboline connectors. They are no longer made and AMP/Tyco no longer lists all of the old NLA connectors on their site. Does anyone have an old catalog which lists these connectors? Either a scan or xerox would be great! --tnx --tom From bert at brothom.nl Fri Aug 26 13:03:43 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:03:43 +0100 Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430F597F.3050009@brothom.nl> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>>Is anyone on this list an AOL user that I can send a test email to? I want >>>to find out if I can get email through to AOL. >> >>I have an AOL address. Contact me off list. > > > Wow, you're actually willing to admit this publicly? :) Wow, sellam is in a good mood! ;-) From rickb at bensene.com Fri Aug 26 12:13:51 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:13:51 -0700 Subject: DECassette pictures In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050826101746.1a2fd9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050826170506.5E95B97C30@pail.bensene.com> > "Deccasette should be TU60, see: > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0870.JPG > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0871.JPG > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0872.JPG > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0874.JPG > > And yes I know this beast pretty well, more than I liked in > the old days. > > DEC made CAPS-11 "operating-system" especially arount this > peripheral, basically the papertape programming software on casettes. > > I'm not aware of any surviving copy of this..." > I've got one of these, but no interface board for 8e or 11/34. Anyone know where one might be found? It'd be cool to try to bring it up. Probably no device driver support in any later OS's, but at least I could try writing some machine code to see if it works. Would be cool if someone has a copy of CAPS out there. Does anyone know if you could boot off of these things? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator (Web) Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 26 13:04:36 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:04:36 -0400 Subject: Still at it (ImageDisk update) Message-ID: <200508261804.j7QI4V07018745@mail1.magma.ca> Continuing with my own experience as I use it, and feedback from others, I have once again updated ImageDisk. 1.05 = Fix to interleave logic (could mix up Cylinder/Head mapping). Rename IMDAM to IMDU (IMageDisk Utility) and add capabilities: - Handle larger tracks - Remove specific tracks/sides - Convert image to raw binary sector dump - Translate data rates within image - reGenerate tracks with new interleave factor - Append, Replace and Extract comment record The update is available on my site (see sig), in the "Disks/Software imaegs" section - imd105.zip near the top of that page. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 13:18:27 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:18:27 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430F5CF3.9000909@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > > >>Sellam could have a computer warehouse maze and we could all wander >>around looking for lost computers!! > > > You mean I could charge admission to let people into this mess? > I had a local computer club for teenagers/kids pay to have me give a tour of my mess. I had a pretty good time. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 26 13:51:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:51:53 +0100 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> References: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> Message-ID: <430F64C9.9060609@yahoo.co.uk> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 25 Aug 2005 21:31 meinte Jules Richardson: > >> Thunderbird time I suppose... > > > Well, Thunderbird isn't bad, but way to much of an Outlook > rip off. Including lots of unnecersary or disturbing things. > And most of all, the bird is quite fat. you'll need some 50+ > MB on your drive just for installation and quite some RAM to > run it. So far so good... I managed to free up a few hundred MB of space just by deleting all the junk that various Windows Update / service pack installs etc. had left behind, so I now have Thunderbird installed plus more disk space free than I started with :-) Early days yet (lots of config to do and rules to set up etc.) - but at least it's handling email headers properly, which LookOut! seemed totally incapable of doing :) thanks all, Jules (consider this a test post ;) From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 26 14:08:00 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DECassette pictures In-Reply-To: <20050826170506.5E95B97C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050826101746.1a2fd9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050826170506.5E95B97C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <18111.62.177.191.201.1125083280.squirrel@62.177.191.201> >> "Deccasette should be TU60, see: >> http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0870.JPG >> http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0871.JPG >> http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0872.JPG >> http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0874.JPG >> >> And yes I know this beast pretty well, more than I liked in >> the old days. >> >> DEC made CAPS-11 "operating-system" especially arount this >> peripheral, basically the papertape programming software on casettes. >> >> I'm not aware of any surviving copy of this..." >> > I've got one of these, but no interface board for 8e or 11/34. > Anyone know where one might be found? Try ebay, that's where I got my 2nd TA11. BTW, Frank made those pictures at my place. > It'd be cool to try to bring it up. Probably no device driver support in > any later OS's, but at least I could try writing some machine code to see > if it works. Hmm, there is a driver for the TU60 in RSX-11M. Known as the CT: driver > > Would be cool if someone has a copy of CAPS out there. Does anyone know > if you could boot off of these things? > Ed From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:11:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5a9e7$7d91e4e0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote: > The documation readers are somewhat available nowdays, coming out of > election use. I believe early HP's used the documation (never checked that > myself). However, HP did actually produce a punch card reader, model 7261 or > 7621 I seem to recall. I have one, and it's not terribly far down my "to be > restored" list. I actually used this same unit in high school on the HP2000, > so it WILL get restored someday. Many fond memories of this unit. Hope I > have enough spare bits to make it run again! I have one of these readers as well. It's a 9869A Calculator Card Reader. I also have another one with a different model (don't have it handy). It was one of the candidates I selected when I first set out to get a punched card reader working. Unfortunately, as with most HP equipment of this era, the roller literally melted into a puddle of goo on the bottom of the reader input hopper. Does anyone know how fast these HP readers are supposed to be? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:16:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508260305.j7Q35XGK017454@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > There have been a bunch coming out on eBay lately but they have been asking > $300 & up. I am glad to hear that there is a reason and maybe if there is a > flood of them then the price will come down. The Four-Phase Systems IV/70 > used to use these to boot a system that was being used for terminal > emulation only - had no disk or tapes. Mostly they used the smaller unit > that was about 80 cards per minute. The ones showing up on eBay are larger > 300 CPM units I think, though just from a distant photo you can't easily > distinguish the 600 CPM model. When people aren't paying stupid money for them, you can usually get one of the better Documation readers for under $150. Recent models listed have been 300, 600 and 1000 CPM. I have 200 and 1000 CPM models. If you do get one, you'll still need to figure out how to interface it. My Apple ][ interface isn't terribly practical, so Brian Knittel's USB interface is definitely the way to go. The schematics, firmware and software to build your own are available for download here: http://ibm1130.org/sim/downloads/cardread.zip Brian RAWKS!!! M1000 units with serial converter units attached are out there and show up on eBay a lot. However, I haven't played with mine yet and don't know how it works. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:18:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <430E85C1.475343A8@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > I have one of the card readers currently listed on Ebay. It is > in perfect condition, and is equiped with RS232 interface, for > convenient reading on a PC or whatever. Have you gotten the serial interface to work? > Biggest problem to deal with is age of rollers, and since these > are taken from recent service, they should last longer than the > originals. I'm not sure how old my M200 is or when it was last serviced, but I found it under a pile at Mike Quinn Electronics years ago and when I put it back into service it worked really well. It still does. I just ran 30,000 cards through. It definitely needs some maintenance now as it makes a harsh noise when it's operating. Will have to find time to open it up and lubricate the bearings and what not. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:31:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Any AOL Users here? In-Reply-To: <430F597F.3050009@brothom.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Bert Thomas wrote: > Wow, sellam is in a good mood! ;-) I'm always in a good mood until someone ruins it ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:32:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Still at it (ImageDisk update) In-Reply-To: <200508261804.j7QI4V07018745@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Continuing with my own experience as I use it, and feedback from > others, I have once again updated ImageDisk. > > 1.05 = Fix to interleave logic (could mix up Cylinder/Head mapping). > Rename IMDAM to IMDU (IMageDisk Utility) and add capabilities: > - Handle larger tracks > - Remove specific tracks/sides > - Convert image to raw binary sector dump > - Translate data rates within image > - reGenerate tracks with new interleave factor > - Append, Replace and Extract comment record > > The update is available on my site (see sig), in the "Disks/Software > imaegs" section - imd105.zip near the top of that page. Just gotta add a word of thanks and praise for Dave's effort. I used IMD the other day and it not only works brilliantly but is also brilliantly designed. The online help system is world-class, with hyperlinked keywords and everything. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Aug 26 14:33:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: <430F5CF3.9000909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I had a local computer club for teenagers/kids pay to have me give a > tour of my mess. Suckers. I do that for free :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 26 14:49:25 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:49:25 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640508251831735d86b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01c5aa77$4482cc60$5b01a8c0@pc1> >Nice machines, disks are getting more expensive >unless you can find a good qbus scsi card. I've not actually tried, but I think you should be able to use an HSD05 or HSD30 to hang SCSI disks off the built-in DSSI buss(es). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:12:59 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:12:59 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430F77CB.9000602@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>I had a local computer club for teenagers/kids pay to have me give a >>tour of my mess. > > > Suckers. I do that for free :) > I would have, had they asked. They offered money. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:13:30 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:13:30 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-705 In-Reply-To: <000f01c5aa77$4482cc60$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <000f01c5aa77$4482cc60$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <430F77EA.80409@gmail.com> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >>Nice machines, disks are getting more expensive >>unless you can find a good qbus scsi card. > > > I've not actually tried, but I think you should be able > to use an HSD05 or HSD30 to hang SCSI disks off the > built-in DSSI buss(es). I've done it with my 4000/505A's. Works pretty well. Peace... Sridhar From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Aug 26 15:43:14 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:43:14 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data docu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1125088994.27784.35.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 21:12 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I would like to get these from you to add to the archives > > on bitsavers. I currently have nothing on Norsk Data. > Hmm, that'd be useful. We've still got an ND-100 arriving at some point > (it's inconvenient for us to take it on right now, plus for the owners to > move it from the island it lives on right at this time!) but I have no idea > what docs it'll come with. Some online ND-100 stuff would be useful! I'm working on putting up a NORD-10 CPU manual up. I might at some point continue my effort. I had no scanner, and a bit of spare time (OK, too much of it... Plus, I like machine-readable text.) so I typed significant amounts of it in. It is availible here: http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~toresbe/nd/docs There will be more on that site soon. (Al, if you want to, by all means mirror this.) I might easily have made errors in the reading. I hope to make more docs availible as time progresses. There are the beginnings of a Norwegian computer history society, and we may be starting cooperation with some museums with significant collections, but very limited means. They amongst other things have The Collected Documentation of ND (including quite a lot internal stuff) and at least one of each ND machine made. At the founding meeting I'm suggesting we serve the n.c.h.s. website with an ND machine :) I have the files ...somewhere... in PDF and the original SXW documents. The HTML is ever-so-slightly screwed in formatting, especially the bitfield declarations. I have a running ND-120/CX. Like the 100, it's completely compatible with the -10 and the -1. I'm expecting an Ethernet board from an ex-ND friend of mine who still supports them. He's got the board, but most stuff is I'm working on getting the ND-120 online, with telnet logins. SINTRAN is an odd/interesting OS indeed. -toresbe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 15:24:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:24:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9831 operating manual Message-ID: It sounds like my house is similar to others on this list.... Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual and the I/O Manual. [The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] A couple of things struck me from reading said documentation 1) There were 2 ROM modules made for the 9831 -- a Matrix/Plotter ROM (which came in 2 versions to support either the 9862 or 9872 plotters) and a Flexible Disk ROM. I have neither, alas. Has anyone ever seen them? 2) The I/O manual describes all the peripherals available for the machine _including the 9877 External Tape Memory_. It appears that the 9831 firmware supports this device for loading/saving BASIC programs and data files (although not for doing bit-level copies of tapes, etc). Unfortunately it says nothing about the actually interface for the 9877 -- for all other peripherals (printers, card reader, paper tape punch, paper tape reader), it says that the interface is a 98032 16 bit parallel module with the approriate 'option' (cable and link settings). Does anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? Even better, does anyone know the wiring? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 15:25:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:25:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: V25 pinout? Message-ID: Does anyone know the pinout of the V25 interface (DB25 connector)? No, this is not a typo for V24, which I know ot be much the same as RS232. V25 seems ot be an interfce for autodiallers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 15:06:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:06:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Aug 26, 5 12:09:23 pm Message-ID: > > Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards don't have > any identifiers. > But was the the DMP-11 or DMR-11 which used coax? It could be one of > those. Max 1 Mb/s interface, also for network. It's not a DMC-11, KMC-11, or DMR-11. I have all 3, and they look nothing like that. In fact I am not convinced this is a Digital-made board. -tony From dan at ekoan.com Fri Aug 26 16:22:56 2005 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:22:56 -0400 Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050826171418.06683c90@mail.marcal.com> At 04:24 PM 8/26/05, you wrote: >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual >and the I/O Manual. I have at least two other manuals for the 9831: BASIC Reference (09831-90010) System Test (09831-90031) >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] Yes, the ROM is removable, so you can interchange the BASIC and HPL ROMs on the same hardware platform. >1) There were 2 ROM modules made for the 9831 -- a Matrix/Plotter ROM >(which came in 2 versions to support either the 9862 or 9872 plotters) >and a Flexible Disk ROM. I have neither, alas. Has anyone ever seen them? I have two of the Flexible Disc ROMs. You can see an image of one at the bottom of the page at http://www.decodesystems.com/hp9831.html >Does >anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? Even >better, does anyone know the wiring? Not sure, but the System Test manual refers to a "9877A Chapter of the Peripheral Control Manual." I haven't found that manual (yet). Cheers, Dan From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Aug 26 16:58:50 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:58:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: V25 pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone know the pinout of the V25 interface (DB25 connector)? No, > this is not a typo for V24, which I know ot be much the same as RS232. > V25 seems ot be an interfce for autodiallers. I just looked, and V.25 explicitly refers to the V.24 pinout. V.25 (and V.25bis and V.25ter) only specify procedures user over the v.24 circuit in automatic dialling scenarios (when to raise/lower which signals and a DTE-DCE command/response format) V.25ter is the familiar AT command set. Alexey From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 26 17:59:58 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:59:58 -0400 Subject: VAXStation SIMMS Message-ID: <430F9EEE.5040302@bellsouth.net> Hello all -- Are the MS44-AA and MS44L-AA the same? If not, what's the difference? Can I use an MS44L-AA in place of an MS44-AA??? TIA -- Glen 0/0 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 18:35:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:35:29 Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826183529.3d1fdb8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 8/26/05 +0100, you wrote: >It sounds like my house is similar to others on this list.... > >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual >and the I/O Manual. COOL! When are you going get it copied or scanned so the rest of us can see it? :-) > >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] The 9831 is a 9825 with HP 9830 ROM code in it. I was told by one of the it's developers that it had ALL the 9830 ROMs built into it and this is the first time that I've heard that there were ROMs available for it. Do you have any idea of the part numbers for them? I have seen a couple of Flexible Disk ROMs that looked like they were for the 9825 but had different part numbers so perhaps one of them was for the 9831. > >A couple of things struck me from reading said documentation > >1) There were 2 ROM modules made for the 9831 -- a Matrix/Plotter ROM >(which came in 2 versions to support either the 9862 or 9872 plotters) >and a Flexible Disk ROM. I have neither, alas. Has anyone ever seen them? > >2) The I/O manual describes all the peripherals available for the machine >_including the 9877 External Tape Memory_. It appears that the 9831 >firmware supports this device for loading/saving BASIC programs and data >files (although not for doing bit-level copies of tapes, etc). > >Unfortunately it says nothing about the actually interface for the 9877 >-- for all other peripherals (printers, card reader, paper tape punch, >paper tape reader), it says that the interface is a 98032 16 bit parallel >module with the approriate 'option' (cable and link settings). Does >anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? Yes it does. I have (had?) a picture of one at one time. Even >better, does anyone know the wiring? No. There were a lot of modified 98032 interfaces available for different peripherals and I've been looking for any of them but I've only found a couple of them and I think I only have docs (and schematic) for ONE of them. I SHOULD set up an automatic E-bay search for HP 98032 and see if I can turn up more of the modified interfaces but I haven't done it. Regarding the 9877, as you know I have two of them. Kennedy Space Center also has one and we have both been looking for interfaces, docs and software for them but with little luck. KSC does have an interface but they weren't willing to let me examine it. They did sent me a picture of it but it just looks like any other modified 98032. It's marked 98032 option 77. KSC has tape with software but the media is flaking off of it and it's unradable so they're looking for another one. I did find a 9877 tape at a hamfest a couple of years ago but it's probably shot too. I've never tried to read it. If some has a GOOD tape drive and the necessary knowledge and equipment to try and reproduce it WITH ONE READ ONLY (that's probably all you'll get) I'll send it to them and let them try to copy it. But I definitely want it to go to someone that knows what they're doing since I seriously doubt that anyone will ever find another copy. Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 18:55:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:55:09 Subject: DEC network card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826185509.1a8fe1c6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:06 PM 8/26/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hard to tell much from the information given, since the cards don't have >> any identifiers. >> But was the the DMP-11 or DMR-11 which used coax? It could be one of >> those. Max 1 Mb/s interface, also for network. > >It's not a DMC-11, KMC-11, or DMR-11. I have all 3, and they look nothing >like that. In fact I am not convinced this is a Digital-made board. I never indicated that it was a DEC made board and I strongly doubt that it is. If it was a DEC made board it would have a model number and other info that would identify it and I would have been able to find it somewhere online. There is no manufacturer's idenfication of any type on it and no model number, name or any other identifying marks. It MAY be something that was added when this system was modified for use by GenRad but I don't think it's a GenRad card either. They're usually marked and are built out of different PCB material and look different from this one. Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 26 18:59:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 18:59:39 Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050826171418.06683c90@mail.marcal.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050826185939.3d1fbf9c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:22 PM 8/26/05 -0400, Dan wrote: > >I have two of the Flexible Disc ROMs. You can see an image of one at >the bottom of the page at >http://www.decodesystems.com/hp9831.html Hot dog! If that's the right Flexible Disk ROM for the 9831 then I have one. In fact I think I have at least two of them. Now I just have to figure out where I put them! Joe > From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Aug 26 19:06:51 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:06:51 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data docu In-Reply-To: <1125088994.27784.35.camel@fortran> References: <1125088994.27784.35.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <1125101211.27784.42.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 22:43 +0200, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > I have a running ND-120/CX. Like the 100, it's completely compatible > with the -10 and the -1. I'm expecting an Ethernet board from an ex-ND > friend of mine who still supports them. He's got the board, but most > stuff is Sorry, incomplete thought, he's got the board, looking for the drivers. :) From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 19:18:47 2005 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:18:47 -0500 Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will be junked! In-Reply-To: <1124907700@rothfus.com> Message-ID: on 8/24/05 2:28 PM, Eric J. Rothfus at eric at rothfus.com wrote: >> ... >> Is there anyone in or near Dallas that can save this. Then there is >> ... > > I've contacted Patrick indicating that I'd be willing to do > the trek from Austin (about 3 hours) to pick it up. I've > indicated that I'd like to be the "last best hope" for the > system. If someone else really wants it, please volunteer > and you'll save me the trip. :-) I don't have that much > storage either. > > Eric I live just north of Dallas. I talked to Patrick today and arranged to pick it up this Sunday. Richard From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Aug 26 19:54:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:54:15 -0500 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> References: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> Message-ID: <20050826195415.0dc2be84.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:13:40 +0200 "Hans Franke" wrote: > Am 25 Aug 2005 21:31 meinte Jules Richardson: > > > >If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, > > > >then I get something different yet again - in the From: field > > > >something like:"cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; > > > >Jules Richardson[julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" > > > > Real simple go into your address book and find the > > > "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" > > > entry and delete it. Somehow you associated that with a CCTALK. > > > If I'd had more setup time before I left the UK the laptop wouldn't > > be running Windows even :) > > > Thunderbird time I suppose... > > Well, Thunderbird isn't bad, but way to much of an Outlook > rip off. Including lots of unnecersary or disturbing things. > And most of all, the bird is quite fat. you'll need some 50+ > MB on your drive just for installation and quite some RAM to > run it. Not what I'd recommend for a laptop - Except you'll > you'll have the dough for the latest hardware gadget. > > Gruss > H. > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > For a PC email reader, I would strongly suggest Eudora. It's not that big, and it's pretty efficient. It has filter settings so you can sort your CCTALK mail automatically into it's own folder. It's by no means as good as Sylpheed, the mail client I use for this list. Sylpheed has the powerful ability to view messages in threads. Which makes for a MUCH nicer list-reading experience. But Sylpheed is freenix only, I run it on a NetBSD system. And it's X11 so you can't run it in a terminal shell. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 19:31:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:31:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050826171418.06683c90@mail.marcal.com> from "Dan Veeneman" at Aug 26, 5 05:22:56 pm Message-ID: > > At 04:24 PM 8/26/05, you wrote: > >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring > >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of > >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual > >and the I/O Manual. > > I have at least two other manuals for the 9831: > > BASIC Reference (09831-90010) > System Test (09831-90031) Sounds like between us we have the full set :-) > > >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] > > Yes, the ROM is removable, so you can interchange the BASIC and HPL > ROMs on the same hardware platform. That depends on the 9825. The later 9825s (I forget the suffix letter -- 9825B or something) had no system ROM module slotted in the RHS. The ROMs were on one of the memory boards inside, there was memory mapping logic to allow 64K-ish of RAM _and_ all the ROMs to be present at the same time. With those you can't stick the 9831 ROMs in. [..] > >anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? Even > >better, does anyone know the wiring? > > Not sure, but the System Test manual refers to a "9877A Chapter of > the Peripheral Control Manual." I haven't found that manual (yet). That's what I have. It doesn't give any useful low-level information. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 19:34:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:34:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: V25 pinout? In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Aug 26, 5 09:58:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does anyone know the pinout of the V25 interface (DB25 connector)? No, > > this is not a typo for V24, which I know ot be much the same as RS232. > > V25 seems ot be an interfce for autodiallers. > > I just looked, and V.25 explicitly refers to the V.24 pinout. V.25 (and > V.25bis and V.25ter) only specify procedures user over the v.24 circuit in > automatic dialling scenarios (when to raise/lower which signals and a > DTE-DCE command/response format) V.25ter is the familiar AT command set. Hmmm.... I have an instrument here (an HPIB extender) with 2 DB25's on the back. One is marked 'RS232 V24' and is clearly a normal-ish serial port to connect to a modem. The other is for an autodialer and is marked 'RS336 V25' (I think that's the right RS number, maybe RS339). I don't think that's a normal serial port, but it does seem to use the same voltage levels (in there there are what look like 1488 and 1489 chips linked to it). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 19:27:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:27:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050826183529.3d1fdb8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 26, 5 06:35:29 pm Message-ID: > > At 09:24 PM 8/26/05 +0100, you wrote: > >It sounds like my house is similar to others on this list.... > > > >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring > >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of > >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual > >and the I/O Manual. > > COOL! When are you going get it copied or scanned so the rest of us can > see it? :-) Firstly, here are the exact titles of the 2 manuals I found : 9813A Operating & Programming (09831-90000) 9831A Peripheral Control (09831-90020) The first of those lists 'related publications' which I don't have, but which are as follows : Basic Reference Boolklet (09831-90010) System Test Booklet (09831-90031) Fliexible Disk Operating and Programming Manual (09885-90050) Matrix/Plotter ROM Programming Manual (09831-90021) HP9896 System Installation Manual (09896-90030) HP9896 System Operators Guide (09896-90000) >From what I've read elsewhere (particularly on http://www.hpmuseum.net), the 9896 was a desk with a 9831 on top and a couple of 9885 8" drives in the pedestal. I can look into getting a friend to scan it sometime. It's a fairly thick manual, and I don't want to lend it out (since it's not exactly common), but I will see what I can do. > > > > >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] > > The 9831 is a 9825 with HP 9830 ROM code in it. I was told by one of the Not exactly. The 9831 ran a BASIC which is compatible with the 9830 BASIC, but 2 machines have rather different processors, so the binary contents of the ROMs are different. You can't, for example, use 9830 machine code programs or ROMs with the 9831. > it's developers that it had ALL the 9830 ROMs built into it and this is the > first time that I've heard that there were ROMs available for it. Do you > have any idea of the part numbers for them? I have seen a couple of Sure : HP98223A/B Matrix/Plotter ROM (-A for the 9862A plotter, -B for the 9872A plotter). HP98218A Flexible Disk ROM (controls up to 8 9885M (Master) Flexible Disk drives; if needed up to 3 9885S (slave) drives can be connected to each master drice) [ Hang one, that's 32 disk drives ! -- ARD] The manual claims there were also 'Tape cartridges and flexible disks containtain programs for solving problems from many disciplines'. Alas no list is given, just the instruction to contact an HP sales office. [9877 tape drive] > >Unfortunately it says nothing about the actually interface for the 9877 > >-- for all other peripherals (printers, card reader, paper tape punch, > >paper tape reader), it says that the interface is a 98032 16 bit parallel > >module with the approriate 'option' (cable and link settings). Does > >anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? > > Yes it does. I have (had?) a picture of one at one time. > > > Even > >better, does anyone know the wiring? > > No. There were a lot of modified 98032 interfaces available for > different peripherals and I've been looking for any of them but I've only As I understand it (from the 98032 operating/service manual), the modifications consisted of the correct connector for the peripheral, the connections of the 98032 cable to that connector, a set of soldered links on the cable connector PCB in the rear shell of the 98032 itself and possibly a capacitor on that PCB to slow down the handshake. The 2 main boards in the 98032 were not changed. > found a couple of them and I think I only have docs (and schematic) for ONE > of them. I SHOULD set up an automatic E-bay search for HP 98032 and see if The only wiring I have details of is the Option 085 Flexible Disk one. I buzzed out the wiring in mine. I've posted a couple of times here and to MoHPC asking if anyone has the docs for other Options (or the interfaces themselves that can be buzzed out), but no response. > I can turn up more of the modified interfaces but I haven't done it. > Regarding the 9877, as you know I have two of them. Kennedy Space Center > also has one and we have both been looking for interfaces, docs and > software for them but with little luck. KSC does have an interface but they > weren't willing to let me examine it. They did sent me a picture of it but > it just looks like any other modified 98032. It's marked 98032 option 77. OK, it is, presumanbly, just the wiring and links that I need. Pity you can't take it apart :-(. I have a hand-drawn schematic of the 9877 which gives the pinout of the connector on the back (50 pin Blue Ribbon), all I need to know is how to link that to the 98032. -tony From CCTalk at catcorner.org Fri Aug 26 20:29:01 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:29:01 -0400 Subject: Apple Super Serial ][ pinout Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435E7C@mail.catcorner.org> Does anyone have the pinout of the INTERNAL connector on the Apple Super Serial ][ card? I found one without the cable. I know what the 25 pin connector pinout is, but I need to get from one to the other. I did google it, but I could not find the right pinout. Probably using a wrong term or two. Thanks, Kelly From rcini at optonline.net Fri Aug 26 20:43:50 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:43:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? Message-ID: <002701c5aaa8$c6950610$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have an ASCII/terminal font for Windows that has only the standard ASCII chars (32-127) which are also replicated at the extended address (i.e., 160-255) instead of the PC OEM graphics chars? I can't find a way to force 7-bit ASCII chars in Tera Term so when I use it with my Altair I frequently get PC graphics characters on the screen. I have a font editing program but you have to edit each character individually. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 21:49:55 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:49:55 -0500 Subject: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <430F2F8C.5070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200508270259.j7R2xpke035201@keith.ezwind.net> See the subject of the email Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: sun, FHL stuff in Los Angeles > ... > Where are you located? > > Peace... Sridhar From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 26 18:25:05 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:25:05 +0000 Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. Message-ID: <20050827031934.BFFK2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> What I'm wondering about is is this dolch lunchbox can take a standard AT boards or not? I saw this on ebay and I was wondering because google didn't turn up photos of innards of these Dolch lunchboxes. Was looking to outfit a lunchbox with my parts laying around. (386DX, all the goodies.) Eurocom did have a cached 386DX LCD semi-notebook that takes 3.5" 1" height HD. I have seen one before and it's innards. Know of one of those? Cheers, Wizard From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 22:19:47 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:19:47 -0700 Subject: SWTPC and Datapoint Computers. Message-ID: <002a01c5aab6$3b7aa3b0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Southwest Technical Products and Datapoint were both San Antonio companies so it would be natural to find some things in common. Here is are some comments about how the SWTPC 6800 Computer (1975) was influenced by the Datapoint 2200. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/Gary_Kay.htm Another item is that the designer of the CT-1024 TV Typewriter II, Ed Colle, had previously designed terminals for Datapoint. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/TV_Typewriter_II.htm Michael Holley From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 22:21:39 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:21:39 -0500 Subject: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, or will bejunked! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508270331.j7R3VYw3035411@keith.ezwind.net> Humm - there is weird stuff going down with this list. I live quite close to Dallas & I am certain that I never saw the original of this message. I will probably be willing to pick up almost anything in the Dallas area. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lynch > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:19 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: pdp8 virtual memory disk system -pick up free, > or will bejunked! > > on 8/24/05 2:28 PM, Eric J. Rothfus at eric at rothfus.com wrote: > > >> ... > >> Is there anyone in or near Dallas that can save this. > Then there is > >> ... > > > > I've contacted Patrick indicating that I'd be willing to do > the trek > > from Austin (about 3 hours) to pick it up. I've indicated that I'd > > like to be the "last best hope" for the system. If someone else > > really wants it, please volunteer and you'll save me the > trip. :-) I > > don't have that much storage either. > > > > Eric > I live just north of Dallas. I talked to Patrick today and > arranged to pick it up this Sunday. > Richard > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Aug 26 22:35:08 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:35:08 -0500 Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. In-Reply-To: <20050827031934.BFFK2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200508270345.j7R3j3sY035497@keith.ezwind.net> The Dolch boxes I saw were Sniffers, and were very similar to the Compaq III. An IBM "AT" board was huge, but the clone industry sort of hit on a "baby AT" form factor that was much smaller and pretty standard. HTH, Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jpero at sympatico.ca > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:25 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. > > What I'm wondering about is is this dolch lunchbox can take a > standard AT boards or not? > > I saw this on ebay and I was wondering because google didn't > turn up photos of innards of these Dolch lunchboxes. > > Was looking to outfit a lunchbox with my parts laying around. > (386DX, all the goodies.) > > Eurocom did have a cached 386DX LCD semi-notebook that takes 3.5" 1" > height HD. I have seen one before and it's innards. Know of > one of those? > > Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Aug 26 18:54:57 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:54:57 +0000 Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. In-Reply-To: <200508270345.j7R3j3sY035497@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20050827031934.BFFK2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20050827034926.TLOA1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > From: "Gil Carrick" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:35:08 -0500 > Subject: RE: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > The Dolch boxes I saw were Sniffers, and were very similar to the Compaq > III. An IBM "AT" board was huge, but the clone industry sort of hit on a > "baby AT" form factor that was much smaller and pretty standard. > > HTH, > > Gil WHOOPS! I was thinking AT where i meant baby AT. :) So does this dolch lunchbox fit baby AT boards? The keyboard hole, 7 slots in right places suggests strongly baby AT factor but I wanted to confirm. Cheers, Wizard > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jpero at sympatico.ca > > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:25 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. > > > > What I'm wondering about is is this dolch lunchbox can take a > > standard AT boards or not? > > > > I saw this on ebay and I was wondering because google didn't > > turn up photos of innards of these Dolch lunchboxes. > > > > Was looking to outfit a lunchbox with my parts laying around. > > (386DX, all the goodies.) > > > > Eurocom did have a cached 386DX LCD semi-notebook that takes 3.5" 1" > > height HD. I have seen one before and it's innards. Know of > > one of those? > > > > Cheers, Wizard > From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat Aug 27 00:24:08 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DECassette pictures In-Reply-To: <200508270107.j7R16g5P038792@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508270107.j7R16g5P038792@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 "Rick Bensene" wrote: > > "Deccasette should be TU60, see: > > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0870.JPG > > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0871.JPG > > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0872.JPG > > http://www.iivs.de/home/fm.arnold/Fotoos/DEC/TU60/DSCN0874.JPG > > > > And yes I know this beast pretty well, more than I liked in > > the old days. > > > > DEC made CAPS-11 "operating-system" especially arount this > > peripheral, basically the papertape programming software on casettes. > > > > I'm not aware of any surviving copy of this..." > > > I've got one of these, but no interface board for 8e or 11/34. > Anyone know where one might be found? Same here. It would be fun to just have it. > It'd be cool to try to bring it up. Probably no device driver support in > any later OS's, but at least I could try writing some machine code to see if > it works. RSX have support. It's CT:. > Would be cool if someone has a copy of CAPS out there. Does anyone know if > you > could boot off of these things? Of course you could. How else do you think CAPS worked? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Aug 27 00:41:58 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:41:58 +0200 Subject: Dolch V.P.A.C. 386-SX or portables. In-Reply-To: <20050827034926.TLOA1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <48D58577-16BD-11DA-9ADC-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > WHOOPS! I was thinking AT where i meant baby AT. :) So does this > dolch lunchbox fit baby AT boards? > > The keyboard hole, 7 slots in right places suggests strongly baby AT > factor but I wanted to confirm. > > Cheers, Wizard > I updated one to a 486/66. Went very smootly, only problem is that you are limited to the existing videocard. Jos From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Aug 27 02:58:01 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <430FBA99.27441.47A2C4DA@localhost> Hi all, Does anybody out there know for certain when the term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated boot ROM that was used just for startup, and then the BIOS took over? I had one back in the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. This is for a writing project, so I'd like to get it right, Thanks! Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Aug 27 03:03:18 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:03:18 +0100 Subject: VAXStation SIMMS In-Reply-To: <430F9EEE.5040302@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <002001c5aadd$ca133d40$5b01a8c0@pc1> > Are the MS44-AA and MS44L-AA the same? > If not, what's the difference? Can I use an > MS44L-AA in place of an MS44-AA??? No, not exactly. The MS44L uses 60ns EDO SIMMs. The MS44 is a different speed grade, but I cannot find out exactly what right now. The suffix indicates the total memory size but some of the sizes are achieved by shipping multiple SIMMs of a smaller size. Again, I used to have a chart but that seems to be hiding right now. The original MS44 was used in systems like the VAXstation 3100-76 and the DECsystem 5100. I think the VS3100-76 used the MS44-BA 8MB part (4 for a max. memory of 32MB, which could be purchased with a part no. of MS44-DA). The MS44L was a later part intended for use in the VAXstation 4000 series (and probably the MicroVAX 3100 models later than the M10/M20[e]). I think the VS3100-76 could make use of the 4MB MS44L part, but don't quote me on that. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Aug 27 04:35:49 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:35:49 +0200 Subject: Qualstar 1260S tape drives References: <20050824085020.40313.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5aaea$b58e53c0$2101a8c0@finans> Emne: Qualstar 1260S tape drives > I recently obtained a Qualstar 1260S tape drive. It looks like a wonderful > device, and ought to work under Linux (SCSI interface). I've got a couple of > questions: > I found the manuals for the 1052: (1) "Product Specification for Model 1052" and (2) "Technical manual for PE Streaming tape transports" (1) is about 25-30 pages, and (2) > 100, including diagrams, signal descriptions, etc. I'm afraid that my scanner will give up on the fine print. As the combined weight is about a pound-and-a-half, mailing it to the US would cost an arm and a leg. Would there be a european alternative? Nico From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 27 07:00:16 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:00:16 -0400 Subject: More spare BYTEs available Message-ID: <003c01c5aafe$e3d0e360$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I just got another load of BYTE magazines, all of which are spares: 1982: full year 1984: 1-3, 7, 11 1985: 9, 10 1986: 12 1987: 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 I need a few BYTEs to fill out my collection: 1/77, 6/80, 1/86, 3/86. Contact me off-list if interested. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Aug 27 07:20:42 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:20:42 -0400 Subject: Help with restoring an Altair 680 -- Logo silkscreen Message-ID: <43105A9A.5050304@comcast.net> Hi, I was wondering if anyone might know where I can get the logo artwork reproduced for the front on my Altair 680. This was an original computer my late brother bought as a kit back in the 70's. I helped him build this and we sure had some fun programming this. I'm finally getting around to restoring this. I dug it out from the last trip visiting them. All my stuff was stored in their garage since we moved. The logo silkscreen has faded away alot there's nothing left that resembles a logo. I was hoping there is some way to restore this, either by replacing the front panel or getting this repainted(or silkscreened). In the meantime, I can get the hardware cleaned up and hopefully get this to run again. thanks, =Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 27 09:20:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:20:20 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0ILV0094OX538GX4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Brian Knittel" > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi all, > >Does anybody out there know for certain when the >term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. >Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot rom. Other implmentations from V2 on it was easily to store the BIOS in ROM and use that to boot the system. >This is for a writing project, so I'd like >to get it right, > >Thanks! >Brian Thre is much myth, and misinformation of old cpm. Much of it was from people that had never used or never been there (in time) and their sense of reference is the PC rather than what came before. Allison From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 27 09:33:09 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:33:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: cleanup time : RX01 & RX02 floppies Message-ID: <22326.62.177.191.201.1125153189.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Cleanup time again : Anybody interested in 60 RX02 floppies? They are all XXDP+, and are a mix of various revisions. It is not a complete set btw. All but one are in sleeves. Yours for the cost of shipping (from the Netherlands) I have also a set of XXDP+ floppies on RX01's, this set contains 83 floppies and is near complete. I'm asking $25 + shipping for this. Ed From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 27 09:58:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:58:34 Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050826171418.06683c90@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050827095834.3f5f8164@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:31 AM 8/27/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 04:24 PM 8/26/05, you wrote: >> >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring >> >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of >> >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual >> >and the I/O Manual. >> >> I have at least two other manuals for the 9831: >> >> BASIC Reference (09831-90010) >> System Test (09831-90031) > >Sounds like between us we have the full set :-) > >> >> >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] >> >> Yes, the ROM is removable, so you can interchange the BASIC and HPL >> ROMs on the same hardware platform. > >That depends on the 9825. The later 9825s (I forget the suffix letter -- >9825B or something) had no system ROM module slotted in the RHS. The ROMs >were on one of the memory boards inside, there was memory mapping logic >to allow 64K-ish of RAM _and_ all the ROMs to be present at the same >time. With those you can't stick the 9831 ROMs in. Tony, have you looked at one of the 9831 OS ROMs? Do you think it could be duplicated? Joe> From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Aug 27 10:26:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:26:04 Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050826183529.3d1fdb8e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050827102604.138732ba@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:27 AM 8/27/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 09:24 PM 8/26/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >It sounds like my house is similar to others on this list.... >> > >> >Anyway, while extracting an off-topic device, I came across a ring >> >binder that I had labelled 'HP9831 Manual' Inside were the 2 volumes of >> >user documentation for that machine -- the Operating/Programming Manual >> >and the I/O Manual. >> >> COOL! When are you going get it copied or scanned so the rest of us can >> see it? :-) > >Firstly, here are the exact titles of the 2 manuals I found : > >9813A Operating & Programming (09831-90000) > >9831A Peripheral Control (09831-90020) > >The first of those lists 'related publications' which I don't have, but >which are as follows : > >Basic Reference Boolklet (09831-90010) >System Test Booklet (09831-90031) >Fliexible Disk Operating and Programming Manual (09885-90050) >Matrix/Plotter ROM Programming Manual (09831-90021) >HP9896 System Installation Manual (09896-90030) >HP9896 System Operators Guide (09896-90000) > >>From what I've read elsewhere (particularly on http://www.hpmuseum.net), >the 9896 was a desk with a 9831 on top and a couple of 9885 8" drives in >the pedestal. I wonder if they used the "combining stand" to put them together? That's what they did with the (I think) 9830 and 9866 printer. I actually found one of the "combining stands". It's just a C-shapped metal frame like a printer stand except that it fits over the calculator and hold the printer. It's nothing real special but it is an interesting accessory. > >I can look into getting a friend to scan it sometime. It's a fairly thick >manual, and I don't want to lend it out (since it's not exactly common), I understand that! I was very hestitant to ship my HP books to Al for scanning. I seriously doubt I would have if it involved shipping them across the pond. Hopefully someone in the UK can scan them and post them somewhere on the net. >but I will see what I can do. > >> >> > >> >[The HP9831 has similar hardware to the 9825, but has BASIC, not HPL, in ROM] >> >> The 9831 is a 9825 with HP 9830 ROM code in it. I was told by one of the > >Not exactly. The 9831 ran a BASIC which is compatible with the 9830 >BASIC, but 2 machines have rather different processors, so the binary >contents of the ROMs are different. True. Obviously it's not an EXACT copy since it also includes the 9830 option ROMs. I should have said it was a functional+ copy of the 9830 OS and option ROMs. You can't, for example, use 9830 >machine code programs or ROMs with the 9831. > >> it's developers that it had ALL the 9830 ROMs built into it and this is the >> first time that I've heard that there were ROMs available for it. Do you >> have any idea of the part numbers for them? I have seen a couple of > >Sure : >HP98223A/B Matrix/Plotter ROM (-A for the 9862A plotter, -B for the 9872A >plotter). > Cool, I think I have one of those too but I don't remember if it's an A or B ROM. I need to gather those things up and sort them out. I've found a good number of 98X5 ROMs and interfaces over years and I've just thrown them into the pile(s) and never sorted them out or done anything with them. >HP98218A Flexible Disk ROM (controls up to 8 9885M (Master) Flexible Disk >drives; if needed up to 3 9885S (slave) drives can be connected to each >master drice) [ Hang one, that's 32 disk drives ! -- ARD] Yeap! I have a pile of 9885M and a couple of 9885S. But I've never tried to hook one up and use it. I think Steve Robertson has. i should ask him what success he's had with them. FWIW a LOT of the 9825s that I've found have included 9885 drives. I remember a couple of years ago I found SEVEN test stations that all had HP 9825Ts, 9885s, I/O Expanders, HP-IB interfaces, RTC clocks and several other interfaces. That was a nice haul! > >The manual claims there were also 'Tape cartridges and flexible disks >containtain programs for solving problems from many disciplines'. Alas no >list is given, just the instruction to contact an HP sales office. Sounds like they didn't actually have anything available speciacly for the 9831 but planned to intended to develope something. I don't know if they ever did. If they did I never heard of it. I kind of doubt that they did since it was only on the market for one year. I'd still like to know the story behind that. > >[9877 tape drive] > >> >Unfortunately it says nothing about the actually interface for the 9877 >> >-- for all other peripherals (printers, card reader, paper tape punch, >> >paper tape reader), it says that the interface is a 98032 16 bit parallel >> >module with the approriate 'option' (cable and link settings). Does >> >anyone know if the 9877 _definietly_ connected via a 98032 as well? >> >> Yes it does. I have (had?) a picture of one at one time. >> >> >> Even >> >better, does anyone know the wiring? >> >> No. There were a lot of modified 98032 interfaces available for >> different peripherals and I've been looking for any of them but I've only > >As I understand it (from the 98032 operating/service manual), the >modifications consisted of the correct connector for the peripheral, the >connections of the 98032 cable to that connector, a set of soldered links >on the cable connector PCB in the rear shell of the 98032 itself and >possibly a capacitor on that PCB to slow down the handshake. The 2 main >boards in the 98032 were not changed. That's my understanding as well. But there are a lot of jumpers in the interfaces. Plus the wiring and connectors are unique so that's going to make it impossible to duplicate without a good set of docs. > > >> found a couple of them and I think I only have docs (and schematic) for ONE >> of them. I SHOULD set up an automatic E-bay search for HP 98032 and see if > >The only wiring I have details of is the Option 085 Flexible Disk one. I >buzzed out the wiring in mine. IIRC that the ones that I have a couple of and it's the one that I have docs on and so I can't add anything new about the interfaces. Years ago I did see one for a PT punch but I didn't buy it. Now I'm kicking myself! > >I've posted a couple of times here and to MoHPC asking if anyone has the >docs for other Options (or the interfaces themselves that can be buzzed >out), but no response. Ditto! I STILL need to set up that E-bay search. I'm sure it would turn up some eventually. > >> I can turn up more of the modified interfaces but I haven't done it. >> Regarding the 9877, as you know I have two of them. Kennedy Space Center >> also has one and we have both been looking for interfaces, docs and >> software for them but with little luck. KSC does have an interface but they >> weren't willing to let me examine it. They did sent me a picture of it but >> it just looks like any other modified 98032. It's marked 98032 option 77. > >OK, it is, presumanbly, just the wiring and links that I need. Pity you >can't take it apart :-(. Yes, but they were adamant about it! Not too hard to understand actually, after all this was NASA. But OTOH I didn't go out of my way to help them after that. Joe I have a hand-drawn schematic of the 9877 which >gives the pinout of the connector on the back (50 pin Blue Ribbon), all I >need to know is how to link that to the 98032. > >-tony > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Aug 27 10:08:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:08:01 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed References: <430FBA99.27441.47A2C4DA@localhost> Message-ID: <17168.33233.609865.297280@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Knittel writes: Brian> Hi all, Does anybody out there know for certain when the term Brian> BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, and from what Brian> I can find, it was around 1978 that he abstracted the I/O and Brian> localized it in what he called the BIOS. Anyone know Brian> differently? I'm not sure at this point, but some vague memory says that there was a very basic "OS" for the IBM 360 called BIO (Basic I/O). Sort of the IBM analog to the old paper-tape packages for the PDP-11 and similar systems. paul From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 27 10:09:16 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <002701c5aaa8$c6950610$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002701c5aaa8$c6950610$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > Does anyone have an ASCII/terminal font for Windows that has only > the standard ASCII chars (32-127) which are also replicated at the extended > address (i.e., 160-255) instead of the PC OEM graphics chars? I can't find a > way to force 7-bit ASCII chars in Tera Term so when I use it with my Altair > I frequently get PC graphics characters on the screen. > > I have a font editing program but you have to edit each character > individually. > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > Can you set up your terminal programs serial interface for 7 bit characters? Thats a lot easier than messing with fonts... Peter Wallace From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 27 10:32:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <002701c5aaa8$c6950610$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have an ASCII/terminal font for Windows that has only > the standard ASCII chars (32-127) which are also replicated at the extended > address (i.e., 160-255) instead of the PC OEM graphics chars? I can't find a > way to force 7-bit ASCII chars in Tera Term so when I use it with my Altair > I frequently get PC graphics characters on the screen. What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and why? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 27 10:37:50 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and why? > Sending 7 bits + parity and receiver expecting 8 bit characters? Peter Wallace From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 27 10:55:15 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:55:15 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c5ab1f$b71ca1d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For some reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters (mostly punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. Maybe there's something else wrong? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and > why? > Sending 7 bits + parity and receiver expecting 8 bit characters? Peter Wallace From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 27 11:05:01 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <004401c5ab1f$b71ca1d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <004401c5ab1f$b71ca1d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For some > reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters (mostly > punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > > Maybe there's something else wrong? > Maybe BASIC only expected to send 7 bit characters so has garbage in bit 7... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > > >> What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and >> why? >> > > Sending 7 bits + parity and receiver expecting 8 bit characters? > > Peter Wallace > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 27 11:30:27 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:30:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? Message-ID: <20050827163026.TENG11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 11:55 27/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For some >reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters (mostly >punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > >Maybe there's something else wrong? Try configuring your PC to 7 bits, plus SPACE parity - this should always TX a 0 in outgoing B7, and ignore incoming B7 ... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Aug 27 11:34:56 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:34:56 -0500 Subject: I won a new Robot Message-ID: <008201c5ab25$43e44460$28406b43@66067007> On Friday FedEx delivered a box containing a ROBOSAPIEN robot that was my prize for entering photos of my HERO-Jr in a contest they ran back in June and ended this month. You were to send pictures and a little write-up about what your robot could do. Now if I could just win Publisher's Clearing house. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 27 11:57:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200508271658.MAA19509@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and > why? There is no such thing as an ASCII character >127; ASCII is a 7-bit code and thus has just codes 0 through 127. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Aug 27 12:08:22 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:08:22 +0100 Subject: Free books & s/w In-Reply-To: <008201c5ab25$43e44460$28406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200508271718.j7RHIOHE040925@keith.ezwind.net> Yours for the cost of shipping, or collect from me in Benfleet, Essex. Any unclaimed by 10th September will be taken to the charity shop. Books ===== 1. BBC 'B' User guide - OK condition, looks like its all there. 518 pages softback spiral bound 2. Acornsoft VIEW guide - using the VIEW word processor. 40 pages softback spiral bound 3. Word Processing on the BBC Micro - Wordwise & Epson: Good cond, smells a bit musty. Softback 93 pages 4. Commodore plus/4 user manual & Commodore 3+1 Software Manual: Slightly faded, OK condition. 220 pages each, softback spiral bound. 5. BBC "Micro Guide" - quick reference to BBC B. Hardback. Excellent condition. 45 pages. 6. Using Floppy Disks with the BBC Microcomputer - by Cumana. 70-ish pages softback A real curio this one: 7. BASIC - A Hands On Method 2nd edition 1981. by Herbert D. Peckham. 306 pages softback spiral bound. Pretty good condition. Contains B&W pictures of: A DECsystem-10, an HP 2000 system + printer & teletype, a Model 33 teletype, a DECwriter-II and an HP 2644 terminal. It also contains a variety of instructions for several systems, including: BASIC Time Sharing (System 4000) Data General Corp (RDOS o/s) DEC (RSTS, BASIC Plus, System 11/34 to 11/74) DEC (System 10, TOPS o/s) DEC (System 20, TOPS/20 o/s) Harris (Vulcan o/s) HP2000 C, E or F HP2000 Access HP3000 Honeywell (Data Net Services) Univac (1100 series) Xerox (Sigma 5-9 series, CP-5 o/s) Instructions include: Sign on, sign off Clearing the program (i.e. NEW - or ELIMINATE on the Harris) Interrupting a program & lots more. Software ======== Micro Primer Software pack 4 - BBC B - Contains 2 tapes & a book. Untested (can't, no BBC B any more) Quantum Link Program Disk - for C64/C128(?) - Mentions programs like Backgammon, Contract Bridge, Chequers etc. & says "Games can only be used while connected to Q-Link". May be useless... Untested, have no suitable disk drive. There may be other stuff coming up soon. Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 26/08/2005 From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Aug 27 12:20:31 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:20:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Norsk Data Verification data pack Message-ID: <17293.62.177.191.201.1125163231.squirrel@62.177.191.201> During my cleanup, I found a Norsk Data Verification data pack. It's the 80Mb CDC type, blue transparent plastic. There is also a 2nd pack (smoke colored plastic), I don't know what's on it, but it has a 'WANG" label on it. Available for the cost of shipping. Ed From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Aug 27 12:53:29 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:53:29 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data Verification data pack References: <17293.62.177.191.201.1125163231.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <000c01c5ab30$3c064170$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: Emne: Norsk Data Verification data pack > > During my cleanup, I found a Norsk Data Verification data pack. > It's the 80Mb CDC type, blue transparent plastic. That would certainly be interesting for Tore Bekkedal in Oslo. Please contact me if he doesnt react himself Nico From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 27 13:02:47 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:02:47 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005301c5ab31$8818c8c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> That's what I think but I can't find a setting in Tera Term to ignore bit 7. So I figured I'd do it by brute force -- replacing the OEM font. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For > some reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters > (mostly punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > > Maybe there's something else wrong? > Maybe BASIC only expected to send 7 bit characters so has garbage in bit 7... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Peter C. Wallace > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 11:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > > >> What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your terminal and >> why? >> > > Sending 7 bits + parity and receiver expecting 8 bit characters? > > Peter Wallace > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 27 13:24:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:24:33 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? Message-ID: <0ILW00H5V8G22YM0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:55:15 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For some >reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters (mostly >punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > >Maybe there's something else wrong? I always used 7bit IO for terminals in that era. The base ASCII charset was 0-127 and bit 7 was often used by many programs to signal a format effector or binary data. Some software actually translated the chars with bit 7 set a set of control characters and reverse screen characters. The driver I used for my VDM-1 did that (reverse or cursor required bit 7 to be set). As a consequence all of my terminal drivers then and now for the 8bit world (Altair basic and CP/M etal) mask bit 7 to Zero on recieve. If I needed a 8bit terminal IO I'd then use IObyte to select a different driver that didn't mask. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 27 13:48:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <004401c5ab1f$b71ca1d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For some > reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters (mostly > punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > > Maybe there's something else wrong? That doesn't seem reasonable so I would be inclined to believe there is something else wrong. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Aug 27 13:51:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <005301c5ab31$8818c8c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > That's what I think but I can't find a setting in Tera Term to ignore bit 7. > > So I figured I'd do it by brute force -- replacing the OEM font. You could replace your terminal program to something less retarded :) http://www.siconic.com/download/utility/PCPLUS.ZIP -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 27 15:00:10 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:00:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <20050827163026.TENG11705.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <005501c5ab41$ee35bbd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Uploading using Raw ASCII in Procomm Plus at 8N1 and then changing to 7S1 works perfectly. It's two steps but it's easier than making a font. Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? At 11:55 27/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: >My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For >some reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters >(mostly punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. > >Maybe there's something else wrong? Try configuring your PC to 7 bits, plus SPACE parity - this should always TX a 0 in outgoing B7, and ignore incoming B7 ... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From kth at srv.net Sat Aug 27 15:23:53 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:23:53 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <005501c5ab41$ee35bbd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <005501c5ab41$ee35bbd0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <4310CBD9.4050900@srv.net> Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > Uploading using Raw ASCII in Procomm Plus at 8N1 and then changing >to 7S1 works perfectly. It's two steps but it's easier than making a font. > > Thanks. > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield >Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 12:30 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > > >At 11:55 27/08/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > >>My Altair is configured for 8N1 as is the terminal (a Windows PC). For >>some reason when I LIST a BASIC program I see >127 on some characters >>(mostly punctuation). Typing in produces the right screen characters. >> >>Maybe there's something else wrong? >> >> > >Try configuring your PC to 7 bits, plus SPACE parity - this should always TX >a 0 in outgoing B7, and ignore incoming B7 ... > >Regards, >Dave > > If you still want a font, you might try playing with this font editor http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/ May, or may not, be easy for you to do what you want. From allain at panix.com Sat Aug 27 15:29:09 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:29:09 -0400 Subject: DEC network card? References: <3.0.6.16.20050826185509.1a8fe1c6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00a701c5ab45$fb1cf800$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >It's not a DMC-11, KMC-11, or DMR-11. I have all 3, and they look nothing >like that. In fact I am not convinced this is a Digital-made board. I brought up the GenRad aspect of this thinking not that they were for network, but rather for signal sensing. Something like digital X-Ray work. John A. From ICS at Core.com Sat Aug 27 15:47:11 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:47:11 -0400 Subject: Free books & s/w References: <200508271718.j7RHIOHE040925@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <006b01c5ab48$80640240$8984efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Dear Ade, I would be interested in the Data General items only. ,George Wiegand Ohio, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ade Vickers" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 1:08 PM Subject: Free books & s/w > Yours for the cost of shipping, or collect from me in Benfleet, Essex. Any > unclaimed by 10th September will be taken to the charity shop. > > Books > ===== > > 1. BBC 'B' User guide - OK condition, looks like its all there. 518 pages > softback spiral bound > 2. Acornsoft VIEW guide - using the VIEW word processor. 40 pages softback > spiral bound > 3. Word Processing on the BBC Micro - Wordwise & Epson: Good cond, smells a > bit musty. Softback 93 pages > 4. Commodore plus/4 user manual & Commodore 3+1 Software Manual: Slightly > faded, OK condition. 220 pages each, softback spiral bound. > 5. BBC "Micro Guide" - quick reference to BBC B. Hardback. Excellent > condition. 45 pages. > 6. Using Floppy Disks with the BBC Microcomputer - by Cumana. 70-ish pages > softback > > A real curio this one: > > 7. BASIC - A Hands On Method 2nd edition 1981. by Herbert D. Peckham. 306 > pages softback spiral bound. Pretty good condition. > > Contains B&W pictures of: A DECsystem-10, an HP 2000 system + printer & > teletype, a Model 33 teletype, a DECwriter-II and an HP 2644 terminal. > > It also contains a variety of instructions for several systems, including: > > BASIC Time Sharing (System 4000) > Data General Corp (RDOS o/s) > DEC (RSTS, BASIC Plus, System 11/34 to 11/74) > DEC (System 10, TOPS o/s) > DEC (System 20, TOPS/20 o/s) > Harris (Vulcan o/s) > HP2000 C, E or F > HP2000 Access > HP3000 > Honeywell (Data Net Services) > Univac (1100 series) > Xerox (Sigma 5-9 series, CP-5 o/s) > > Instructions include: > Sign on, sign off > Clearing the program (i.e. NEW - or ELIMINATE on the Harris) > Interrupting a program > > & lots more. > > > Software > ======== > > Micro Primer Software pack 4 - BBC B - Contains 2 tapes & a book. Untested > (can't, no BBC B any more) > Quantum Link Program Disk - for C64/C128(?) - Mentions programs like > Backgammon, Contract Bridge, Chequers etc. & says "Games can only be used > while connected to Q-Link". May be useless... Untested, have no suitable > disk drive. > > There may be other stuff coming up soon. > > > > Cheers, > Ade. > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 26/08/2005 > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From ICS at Core.com Sat Aug 27 15:51:18 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:51:18 -0400 Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <50649.65.6.15.42.1121720584.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> Message-ID: <007101c5ab49$139aedd0$8984efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Hi Jeff, Just wondering what happened to the DG boards. Thanks, ,George Wiegand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards > Ok, I received a few interested responses, so I set the boards aside somewhere > safe until I get back from my trip. Will figure out who gets what in 3 weeks > or so. > > And, to answer a common question, there were no other DG parts or chassis > there. I'll have a friend who frequents the surplus store ask around and see > if he can find out if there still is a DG on campus. I suspect these were > either spares or pulled from the DG when it was scrapped some time ago, and > they were found when cleaning out a storage room (based on the types of stuff > I found in the same bin the boards came from). > > If I'm wrong, maybe we'll get lucky and the chassis or drives will show up in > this week's surplus drop-off (and that my friend will spot it). > > Jeff > > > Hi, I was at my local uni surplus today (UC Santa Barbara) and found, buried > > in a bin of random industrial parts from the chem lab, some Data General Nova > > boards. Here's what I found, if anyone would like to help me identify them > > further: > > > > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: > > > > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova > > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged traces) > > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader > > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface > > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O > > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) > > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 > > > > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled with > > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. > > > > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: > > > > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) > > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire wrap > > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. > > > > I don't have any DG stuff, and it's unlikely I'm going to acquire one in the > > near future (still working on my Sun 2/120), so eventually these will go to > > someone else. I'll be leaving Sunday on a trip until Aug 10th, but I'll try > > to take some photos of the boards tomorrow or Saturday (if anyone is > > interested in them). > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Sat Aug 27 16:40:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508272140.OAA27031@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >> From: "Brian Knittel" >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>Hi all, >> >>Does anybody out there know for certain when the >>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? > >The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with >V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. > >>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. > >The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the >CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks >of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot >rom. Hi My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping code from the first sector on reset. I have such a controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. Dwight > >Other implmentations from V2 on it was easily to store >the BIOS in ROM and use that to boot the system. > >>This is for a writing project, so I'd like >>to get it right, >> >>Thanks! >>Brian > >Thre is much myth, and misinformation of old cpm. Much of >it was from people that had never used or never been there >(in time) and their sense of reference is the PC rather >than what came before. > >Allison > > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Aug 27 16:58:01 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:58:01 +0200 Subject: HP 21MX Cards Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050827234512.03100018@pop.xs4all.nl> Anyone interested to swap these cards : - 13037 INTF, 13037-80023 - Time Base Gen., 12539-60003 - BACI 12966 A, 12966-60001 - BACI 12966 A, 12966-60002 (the last 2 is hand written on the card) - 7970 MAG TAPE 1, 13183-60012 - 7970 MAG TAPE 2, 13183-60013 - BUS I/O, 59310-60101 - Line Printer Interface, 12845-60005 - 8 Chan Mux, 663006 - Jumper, 02116-6110 I only know these cards come from a HP 21MX E-Series, they are untested. If you're interested in buying these or swapping them let me know what you have/would like to offer. Dont ask me what I have in mind for an offer, just make me an offer and we'll continue from there. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Aug 27 17:06:13 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:06:13 +0100 Subject: Free books & s/w In-Reply-To: <006b01c5ab48$80640240$8984efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Message-ID: <200508272216.j7RMGGhM043046@keith.ezwind.net> I think my mail may have caused some confusion... The book "BASIC - A Hands On Method" contains descriptions of carrying out actions on certain systems, e.g. a Data General Corp machine running RDOS. At any rate, that book has now been claimed by a chap in Spain. If anyone wants me to scan the images listed, or the instructions for various computers, then I will do so before I pass the book on. Cheers, Ade. > -----Original Message----- > I would be interested in the Data General items only. > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > A real curio this one: > > > > 7. BASIC - A Hands On Method 2nd edition 1981. by Herbert > D. Peckham. > > 306 pages softback spiral bound. Pretty good condition. > > > > Contains B&W pictures of: A DECsystem-10, an HP 2000 system > + printer > > & teletype, a Model 33 teletype, a DECwriter-II and an HP > 2644 terminal. > > > > It also contains a variety of instructions for several > systems, including: > > > > BASIC Time Sharing (System 4000) > > Data General Corp (RDOS o/s) > > DEC (RSTS, BASIC Plus, System 11/34 to 11/74) > > DEC (System 10, TOPS o/s) > > DEC (System 20, TOPS/20 o/s) > > Harris (Vulcan o/s) > > HP2000 C, E or F > > HP2000 Access > > HP3000 > > Honeywell (Data Net Services) > > Univac (1100 series) > > Xerox (Sigma 5-9 series, CP-5 o/s) > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 26/08/2005 From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Aug 27 17:13:27 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:13:27 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <200508272140.OAA27031@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200508272140.OAA27031@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050827180546.01f01950@mail.earthlink.net> what machine and/or controller was this that had no ROM at all? I never have dealt with any system that at least didn't have some type of startup code somewhere other than a disk drive. DMA would need to be setup unless it was hardwired. The original Intel Intellec-8 required that you enter a program jump into memory that pointed to the program monitor. Intel didn't call it a BIOS though. >Hi > My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >Dwight From infomagic at localisp.com Sat Aug 27 17:46:20 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:46:20 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2 floppy drives. Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a Model I, III, or IV ?? TIA, -John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 27 17:47:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:47:20 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0ILW0010XKLYH0N0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >> >>> >>>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>> From: "Brian Knittel" >>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>Does anybody out there know for certain when the >>>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >>>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >>>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >>>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? >> >>The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with >>V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. >> >>>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >>>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >>>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >>>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >>>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >>>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. >> >>The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the >>CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks >>of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot >>rom. > >Hi > My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >Dwight While possible even the DMA controller needed logic to get it going. The earliest machines (8080) used front pannels to manually enter a small boot into ram. Most of the Intel machines however had at least minimal rom if only there to boot a booter. As it would turn out a DMA controller before the 8257 (LSI device) was a lot of electronics in itself. They were rare and not often seen in micros as it represents a lot of hardware even in minimal form. Identify that machine you have and it's vintage. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 27 17:57:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:57:53 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0ILW001T7L3JH2P0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: Steve Thatcher > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:13:27 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >what machine and/or controller was this that had no ROM at all? I >never have dealt with any system that at least didn't have some type >of startup code somewhere other than a disk drive. DMA would need to >be setup unless it was hardwired. The original Intel Intellec-8 >required that you enter a program jump into memory that pointed to >the program monitor. Intel didn't call it a BIOS though. > > >>Hi >> My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >>and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >>code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >>controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >>Dwight There were a few later machines that used shadow boot rom (it was a doide matrix) and one I know of that the hardware dma was programmed to grab the first sector at reset but the dma logic dwarfed the CPU. There was a slightly later machine that could also do that but, the real trick was the FDC was a second cpu with rom and it know that if it saw reset it was to find the boot block and copy it to ram @0000h so the main cpu ran on release from DMA hold and reset. However early machines were ot so extravagant with hardware as it was mostly SSI TTL and to do dma it nearly doubled the total system package count (without counting ram). An 8080 system needed a lot of support components. In the end it's irrelevent to the basic question asked. The CPM system from at least V1.3 on generally depended on some kind of program (however small) to boot the first block or blocks the usual mode was to load the CP/M image as a monolithic chunk of code and then execute it. In most cases the amountof code needed to do that would fit in the then available 256byte EProms/fuse roms ( either 1702 or bipolar). Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 27 18:00:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050827155923.Q15649@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, infomagic wrote: > I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2 floppy drives. > > Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a Model I, III, or IV ?? YES. IFF termination and drive select are set properly. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 18:01:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:01:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050827095834.3f5f8164@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 27, 5 09:58:34 am Message-ID: > Tony, have you looked at one of the 9831 OS ROMs? Do you think it could > be duplicated? I don't know how much you know about the 9825/31 hardware or memory bus, so some of this might be obvious, but... The memory bus is 16 bit multiplexed address and data. I can't rememebr the exact details, I think it's actually a 15 bit word address, with the other bit being used as a byte select for 8 bit writes. There are also come control lines. The HP ROMs have 16 address/data pins. The address is latched internally _and_ they do the address decoding of the whole 15 bit (or whatever) address. There is no conventional chip select pin. The system ROM cartridge contains a number of those ROMs, maybe some buffer chips, I forget (I do have a schematic). It would be possilble to read them out, but it's more work then just desodlering the chips and sticking them into an EPROM blower. As regards using EPROMs to replace them (I guess that's your aim), there is some possible good news on that. I have 2 ROM modules for the 9825, the Matrix one and the Flexible Disk one. The former contains a couple of the HP ROM chips I just mentioned. The latter contains a couple of normal 8-bit wide ROMs and a bit of TTL (address latch and decoder I think) to link them to the memory bus. Again I have schematics, so it shouldn't be too hard to make a sytstm ROM cartridge using standard EPROMs. Incidentally, the later 9825s -- the ones with the ROMs on one of the internal PCBs -- used standed ROM chips and TTL-based interface logic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 18:13:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:13:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9831 operating manual In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050827102604.138732ba@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 27, 5 10:26:04 am Message-ID: > >>From what I've read elsewhere (particularly on http://www.hpmuseum.net), > >the 9896 was a desk with a 9831 on top and a couple of 9885 8" drives in > >the pedestal. > > I wonder if they used the "combining stand" to put them together? Not as far as I know. There's some info on that site I mentioned, I think under the documentation for the 9825. There's an installation/service manual, but the only 'service' instructions are for the desk, the only schemaitc is the AC power distribution. Still, it might give you some idea. > That's what they did with the (I think) 9830 and 9866 printer. I actually > found one of the "combining stands". It's just a C-shapped metal frame like Odd... The 9866 fits nicely on top of the 9830, it looks as though it was designed to. Maybe the stand you have is to put the 9866 onto a 9831 (this has no built-in printer, unlike a 9825, since a 16 character wide strip printer is not a lot of use for BASIC). > a printer stand except that it fits over the calculator and hold the > printer. It's nothing real special but it is an interesting accessory. > > > > >I can look into getting a friend to scan it sometime. It's a fairly thick > >manual, and I don't want to lend it out (since it's not exactly common), > > I understand that! I was very hestitant to ship my HP books to Al for > scanning. I seriously doubt I would have if it involved shipping them > across the pond. Hopefully someone in the UK can scan them and post them > somewhere on the net. I have a friend at HPCC who will normally scan HP-related stuff for me. I will ask him. Somehow it will get done. > Yeap! I have a pile of 9885M and a couple of 9885S. But I've never > tried to hook one up and use it. I think Steve Robertson has. i should ask > him what success he's had with them. FWIW a LOT of the 9825s that I've > found have included 9885 drives. I remember a couple of years ago I found > SEVEN test stations that all had HP 9825Ts, 9885s, I/O Expanders, HP-IB > interfaces, RTC clocks and several other interfaces. That was a nice haul! My 9825 came with one of the 9885Ms, the 98032 to drive it, a 98034 (HPIB) and 98035 (clock). I got some more interfaces, including a 98036 (RS232/current loop) with the 9831. In fact I nearly didn't rescue that 9831, it was in a skip (dumpster) that I was pulling HP stuff out of, it looked like another 9825 which I didn't particularly want. But it had a couple of interfaces still in it, I decided to grab those, pulled the machine out to get them and then saw it wasn't a 9825. I had no idea what a 9831 was, but it was HP so I got it... A couple of years back I was given a well-loaded 9845B. It has the high-speed language processor, the enhanced mono graphics monitor, etc). And it came with the I/O expander, loads of interfaces (parallel, clock, HPIB, serial), a 9885M and a 9885S. Nice haul... Even nicer was the fact that his has a 3rd party ROM in one of the ROM drawers which, I think, supports HPIB disks. And that ROM module, unlike the HP ones, is not a custom hybrid cirucit, it's a PCB with a couple of EPROMs on one side and some smaller chips (2 latches and an address decoder PROM) on the other. Again it's useful to see how to link normal EPROMs to the memory bus. > >As I understand it (from the 98032 operating/service manual), the > >modifications consisted of the correct connector for the peripheral, the > >connections of the 98032 cable to that connector, a set of soldered links > >on the cable connector PCB in the rear shell of the 98032 itself and > >possibly a capacitor on that PCB to slow down the handshake. The 2 main > >boards in the 98032 were not changed. > > That's my understanding as well. But there are a lot of jumpers in the > interfaces. Plus the wiring and connectors are unique so that's going to > make it impossible to duplicate without a good set of docs. Sure. What I meant by my comment was that if you had those docs, it would be fairly easy to configure any 98032 for any Option. There would be no PCB modes, chip changes, or anything like that. And 98032s are not that rare (I must have almost a dozen of them now). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 17:53:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:53:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: V25 pinout? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 27, 5 01:34:42 am Message-ID: > > I just looked, and V.25 explicitly refers to the V.24 pinout. V.25 (and > > V.25bis and V.25ter) only specify procedures user over the v.24 circuit in > > automatic dialling scenarios (when to raise/lower which signals and a > > DTE-DCE command/response format) V.25ter is the familiar AT command set. > > Hmmm.... > > > I have an instrument here (an HPIB extender) with 2 DB25's on the back. > One is marked 'RS232 V24' and is clearly a normal-ish serial port to > connect to a modem. The other is for an autodialer and is marked 'RS336 > V25' (I think that's the right RS number, maybe RS339). I don't think It's actually RS366 (that will teach me to post without the device in front of me), which seems to be a standard for the interface to an autodialer. >From waht I can determine, it uses 'RS232 levels', and transfers a nybble at a time in parallel to dial a phone number (digits are encoded in BCD, the other 6 combinations are used for things like #, * I guess). I found a pinout for that on the web, and amazingly the pins used in the HPIB extender would agree with that :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 18:28:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:28:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: from "infomagic" at Aug 27, 5 06:46:20 pm Message-ID: > > I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2 floppy drives. > > Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a Model I, III, or IV ?? I certainly used a CoCo floppy drive unit (the FD501 one I think) on my Model 3 for a time, so it should work on the Model 4 too (same disk controller). And I see no good reason why it wouldn't work on a model 1. I even used one of those cheap mechanical printer swtichboxes (with 36 pin Blue Ribbon connectors) to switch the drives between the CoCo and the Model 3. Made up a couple of cables with edge connectors on one end, Blue Ribbon on the other, and crimped a Blue Ribbon plug onto the cable coming out of the drive box. Looking at the mess of wiring inside the switchbox told me it shouldn't work (noise everywhere!), but amazingly I had no problems... -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 27 19:30:07 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:30:07 +0100 Subject: Setting Y-E Data YD-380B FDD to 300RPM? Message-ID: <3a963fa14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi, Does anyone happen to have a manual for the Y-E Data YD-380B 5.25" floppy drive that explains how to set it to either run at 300RPM or enable the speed control via pin 2? I'd like to set this thing up on a BBC Micro if at all possible. Also, if it can do double-stepping ("40 track read"), details on that would be very handy. Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Misspelled? Impossible. Error correcting modem! From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Sat Aug 27 20:56:11 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards In-Reply-To: <007101c5ab49$139aedd0$8984efd1@ics63szde1vn50> References: <4980.68.6.79.45.1121399015.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> <50649.65.6.15.42.1121720584.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> <007101c5ab49$139aedd0$8984efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Message-ID: <5699.70.185.179.173.1125194171.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> All of you that emailed a while back about the DG Nova boards, don't worry, I still have them. I got back last week from a long trip and haven't had time to do anything with them. It'll probably be another couple of weeks before I get to them, when I do I'll go back thru my email and see who wanted what and figure that out. Jeff On Sat, August 27, 2005 1:51 pm, George Wiegand wrote: > Hi Jeff, > Just wondering what happened to the DG boards. > Thanks, > ,George Wiegand > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Davis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: Rescued: Data General Nova Boards > ... >> > >> > These boards are 15 x 15 inches: >> > >> > 107-000187-12X Disk Cartridge Controller, DGC Nova >> > 107-000007-02 DGC Nova Extender Board (quantity 2, one with gouged > traces) >> > 107-000055-03 DGC D-A Converter Scope Control Card Reader >> > 107-000054-02 DGC General Purpose Interface >> > 107-000151-17-16 DGC Nova Cassette I/O >> > 107-000094-00 DG Nova Compatible Wiring Board (quantity 2) >> > D-10632-01 Data Channel Linc Tape, CO3000N Option 008 >> > >> > The wiring boards look to be prototyping boards, they are half filled > with >> > soldered sockets and hand-wired components. >> > >> > These boards are 6.5 x 3.25 inches, and have no obvious plug connectors: >> > >> > 107-000008-01 DGC (no other writing, quantity 2) >> > These look like prototyping boards also, with rows for sockets and wire > wrap >> > posts on either side. Each has different components wired up. >> > ... From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Aug 27 21:20:05 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:20:05 -0500 Subject: Still at it (ImageDisk update) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43111F55.3070905@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Just gotta add a word of thanks and praise for Dave's effort. I used IMD > the other day and it not only works brilliantly but is also brilliantly > designed. The online help system is world-class, with hyperlinked > keywords and everything. I agree, it's the type of utility I had two decades ago!! (All I had back then were the sorely underpowered "Ultra Utilities" -- anyone remember them?) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 27 21:25:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:25:05 -0500 Subject: Spam filters catching cctalk messages? References: <200508260433.j7Q4XJ9P018025@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001e01c5ab77$b459a940$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Evan wrote... > Lately, a bunch of my cctalk messages got into my spam folder. > > That never used to happen, and I didn't make any changes locally. > > Anyone have some insight? Jay? Sorry, I'm behind (again) - just got back from a 3 day float trip :) It is a far, far, far, far more likely thing that something changed in your ISP's or your spam filtering tagging, than something changing on the list traffic. I can't think of anything that has changed that would affect headers or the likelyhood of triggering your (or your ISP's spam filters). You mean you hadn't whitelisted classiccmp? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 27 21:26:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:26:14 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: Message-ID: <002b01c5ab77$e26e6230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > I grew up with the Apple ][ so I went with what I know. I had a 6522 VIA > card I built in a college course years ago. Somewhere, in the basement, I'm positive I have a cardreader that was expressly designed to be hooked up to the Apple. Jay From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 27 21:45:28 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 22:45:28 -0400 Subject: SRAM testers Message-ID: <005d01c5ab7a$8cb0bd40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I would like to wade through my memory boards chip-by chip and find out what's what. I spent the better part of the day swapping boards and chips trying to make 3-4 solid 8k boards out of 6. Does anyone have a small SRAM tester for 16 and 18-pin SRAM/DRAMs that I can borrow? I'll pay postage both ways. Please let me know. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From at258 at osfn.org Sun Aug 28 00:23:00 2005 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New Arrivals In-Reply-To: <26c11a640508251831735d86b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We have just been given a CalComp System 25 by Bobrow Architects in Montreal. It's a large system, and there seem to be a couple of workstations from an older system (IGS 500?) M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Aug 28 08:03:15 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:03:15 -0400 Subject: PhotoEZ....Re: Restoring an Altair 680 -- logo silkscreen In-Reply-To: <430EFFC5.1030300@comcast.net> References: <430EFFC5.1030300@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4311B613.5010003@comcast.net> Hi, I saw from an earlier post on Altair Computer Club about using PhotoEZ to silkscreen front panels. That looks so great to use and easy to handle. I'm going to get some of this to restore my other machines too. But now I have to find somebody who has scanned a good version of the front panel for an Altair 680. I hope someone who has an Altair 680 could offer this. thanks, Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dan wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering if anyone might know where I can get the artwork on > the front panel restored for my Altair 680. This was an original > computer my late brother bought as a kit back in the 70's. I helped > him build this and we sure had some fun programming this. I'm finally > getting around to restore this. I dug it out from the last trip > visiting them. All my stuff was stored in their garage since we > moved.. The logo silkscreen has faded away. I was hoping there is some > way to restore this, either by replacing the front panel or getting > this repainted(or silkscreened). In the meantime, I can get the > hardware cleaned up and hopefully get this to run again. > > thanks, > =Dan > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Aug 28 10:26:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:26:27 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: References: <005301c5ab31$8818c8c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20050828102627.31b0ee8f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > That's what I think but I can't find a setting in Tera Term to > > ignore bit 7. > > > > So I figured I'd do it by brute force -- replacing the OEM font. > > You could replace your terminal program to something less retarded :) > > http://www.siconic.com/download/utility/PCPLUS.ZIP > I've never heard anybody refer to Tera Term as 'retarded' before, but I guess there's always a first. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Aug 28 10:35:56 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:35:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <20050828102627.31b0ee8f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either Hyterterm or Tera Term for Windows needs. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Stevens Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > That's what I think but I can't find a setting in Tera Term to > > ignore bit 7. > > > > So I figured I'd do it by brute force -- replacing the OEM font. > > You could replace your terminal program to something less retarded :) > > http://www.siconic.com/download/utility/PCPLUS.ZIP > I've never heard anybody refer to Tera Term as 'retarded' before, but I guess there's always a first. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 28 10:37:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:37:08 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? Message-ID: <0ILX00LAEVCO2820@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > From: "Richard A. Cini" > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:35:56 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. > >Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either Hyterterm or Tera >Term for Windows needs. I prefer procom when I have to use a PC. When I don't have to use a PC a real VT100, VT320, VT340 or even a H19 tend to be very handy. However, in the room here The VT320 or VT340 are allways at easy reach. I find the "REAL(tm) TERMINAL" allways beats the PC imitation. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 28 11:46:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M 1.0? (was Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed) In-Reply-To: <0ILW001T7L3JH2P0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Allison wrote: > The CPM system from at least V1.3 on generally depended Does anyone have a copy of CP/M 1.0 or know if such a version was ever released? What about 1.1, 1.2, ... ? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 28 11:52:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <002b01c5ab77$e26e6230$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > > I grew up with the Apple ][ so I went with what I know. I had a 6522 VIA > > card I built in a college course years ago. > > Somewhere, in the basement, I'm positive I have a cardreader that was > expressly designed to be hooked up to the Apple. Ok, you are now obligated to find that card reader and spill all the details about it. I *must* know :) One of my back-burner time-wasting projects is to build a custom card reader interface card for the Apple ][ ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 28 11:53:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PhotoEZ....Re: Restoring an Altair 680 -- logo silkscreen In-Reply-To: <4311B613.5010003@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Dan wrote: > I saw from an earlier post on Altair Computer Club about using PhotoEZ > to silkscreen front panels. That looks so great to use and easy to > handle. I'm going to get some of this to restore my other machines too. > But now I have to find somebody who has scanned a good version of the > front panel for an Altair 680. I hope someone who has an Altair 680 > could offer this. I have a 680 but it's a weird turnkey version with no front panel (just a switch and maybe a reset button). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 28 12:31:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. > > Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either Hyterterm or Tera > Term for Windows needs. I replaced the PCPLUS.ZIP in: http://www.siconic.com/download/utility/ ...with a complete version that includes the setup utility. This is a complete copy of ProComm Plus for DOS. If you downloaded this previously and are using it you'll probably want to replace it with this version. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Aug 28 13:37:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:37:23 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <0ILX00LAEVCO2820@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0ILX00LAEVCO2820@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050828133723.6bb4e03a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:37:08 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > > From: "Richard A. Cini" > > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:35:56 -0400 > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > > > >Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. > > > >Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either Hyterterm or > >Tera Term for Windows needs. > > I prefer procom when I have to use a PC. When I don't have to use a > PC a real VT100, VT320, VT340 or even a H19 tend to be very handy. > However, > in the room here The VT320 or VT340 are allways at easy reach. I > find the > "REAL(tm) TERMINAL" allways beats the PC imitation. > > Allison I guess I only raised it as an issue because in 'modern times' I have found the terminal emulation features of Tera Term to be far superior to anything else. If you want to connect to a Linux or BSD box from a Windows terminal and run modern curses-based applications like Midnight Commander, Tera Term is great (in TTY or in Telnet or SSH modes). Back in the BBS days with a modem, I discovered Telemate and never looked back at Procomm, although Procomm 2.4.2 was an excellent term for it's time. Procomm Plus sorta borrowed on 2.4.2's rep and I thought never delivered much more. And it wasn't shareware, to boot. (it was Bossware, the kind of software box you'd find on the shelf of 'the suits.') But anyhow. I used to do 'seat of the pants' adventuring like BBSing with the term.bas program that came bundled with PC-DOS 1.0. Not because it was very good, just because it was cool and minimalist. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 28 14:32:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:32:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? Message-ID: <0ILY0094C68PVXB8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:37:23 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:37:08 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> > >> >Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? >> > From: "Richard A. Cini" >> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:35:56 -0400 >> > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >> > >> > >> >Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. >> > >> >Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either Hyterterm or >> >Tera Term for Windows needs. >> >> I prefer procom when I have to use a PC. When I don't have to use a >> PC a real VT100, VT320, VT340 or even a H19 tend to be very handy. >> However, >> in the room here The VT320 or VT340 are allways at easy reach. I >> find the >> "REAL(tm) TERMINAL" allways beats the PC imitation. >> >> Allison > >I guess I only raised it as an issue because in 'modern times' I have >found the terminal emulation features of Tera Term to be far superior to >anything else. If you want to connect to a Linux or BSD box from a >Windows terminal and run modern curses-based applications like Midnight >Commander, Tera Term is great (in TTY or in Telnet or SSH modes). Still use the copy of procom freeware from back '91ish, it's was the best I'd seen for free and I find it works well. It was '91 that I finally broke down and added a PCxt clone (leading edge model D) to the stable. >Back in the BBS days with a modem, I discovered Telemate and never >looked back at Procomm, although Procomm 2.4.2 was an excellent term for >it's time. Procomm Plus sorta borrowed on 2.4.2's rep and I thought >never delivered much more. And it wasn't shareware, to boot. (it was >Bossware, the kind of software box you'd find on the shelf of 'the >suits.') ;) Back in the BBS days I use either a PDP-11/RT-11 with TERM or the CP/M crate with TERMITE. TERMITE was a homebrew package that did terminal passthrough as the system had a real terminal and could also do Xmodem transfers. IT's big feature and whay it wasn't portable is the modem input buffer and the console input buffers were interrupt driven large buffers so you could even type commands for the remote system while recieving stuff at 1200 baud. Allison From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Aug 28 17:19:27 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP9831 operating manual Message-ID: <20050828221927.07B6D3BAD5@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "Joe R." wrote: > I wonder if they used the "combining stand" to put them together? > That's what they did with the (I think) 9830 and 9866 printer. I actually > found one of the "combining stands". It's just a C-shapped metal frame like > a printer stand except that it fits over the calculator and hold the > printer. It's nothing real special but it is an interesting accessory. Here is a picture of the stand allowing an HP9866A printer to be placed over an HP9825A. http://www.series80.org/Misc/HP9825+9866printer.jpg I haven't actually seen one close up, and for some reason I assumed it was made from some sort of plastic (like the cases of the HP-85) but in retrospect it was probably easier (from a tooling perspective) to use a metal stand. **vp From erick.davidson at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 17:30:39 2005 From: erick.davidson at gmail.com (Eric Davidson) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:30:39 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 video card troubles. Message-ID: I'm a fairly young collector of old computers in general, though it's mostly home computers since they're the easiest to get a hold of. I have a TRS-80 Model III, and in order to fix the keyboard, I had to remove the case. This accidentally pulled off a test probe that was clipped to a pin on a chip in the computer. The probe was from an add on video card called "The Graphyx Solution" Here is a picture of some of the probes: http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9986/graphyxsln3mt.jpg A white probe is unattached, and every other time the computer was turned on until I realized what happened, the screen was full of garbage. Does anyone have installation instructions for this card? From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 28 16:16:50 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:16:50 -0400 Subject: HP 21MX Cards References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050827234512.03100018@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00ac01c5ac21$aa107270$0100a8c0@screamer> What are you looking for in trade? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan" To: Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: HP 21MX Cards > Anyone interested to swap these cards : > > - 13037 INTF, 13037-80023 > - Time Base Gen., 12539-60003 > - BACI 12966 A, 12966-60001 > - BACI 12966 A, 12966-60002 (the last 2 is hand written on the card) > - 7970 MAG TAPE 1, 13183-60012 > - 7970 MAG TAPE 2, 13183-60013 > - BUS I/O, 59310-60101 > - Line Printer Interface, 12845-60005 > - 8 Chan Mux, 663006 > - Jumper, 02116-6110 > > I only know these cards come from a HP 21MX E-Series, they are untested. > If you're interested in buying these or swapping them let me know > what you have/would like to offer. Dont ask me what I have in mind > for an offer, just make me an offer and we'll continue from there. > > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 28 18:57:16 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:57:16 -0400 Subject: CP/M 1.0? (was Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43124F5C.nailBOC118YEG@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Does anyone have a copy of CP/M 1.0 or know if such a version was ever > released? What about 1.1, 1.2, ... ? 1.3 is the earliest I had. (And the original floppy is in Don Maslin's archives should they ever be recovered.) I think I remember Don saying it was the earliest he'd seen. He had lots of 2.2 of course for countless machines but only a handful of 1.4, 2.0, etc, (and most of those came from me too!) The ones I gave Don were official Digital Research distribution floppies, the oldest hand-labeled with a serial number. I am under the impression that earlier versions were not nearly so flexible as regards to customization to a wide variety of machines. Tim. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Aug 28 19:56:20 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:56:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:36 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? > > Hey, it was done with a smily-face, so it's OK. > > Personally, I prefer Procomm for my DOS needs and either > Hyterterm or Tera Term for Windows needs. Procomm had a scripting language that was really cool. I remember once setting up 5 or 6 older PCs with Procom to watch the console ports on a bunch of ATM routers that were having a problem. We would watch for any of them to show certain symptoms on the console ports and reboot the router if it showed a failure. It kept the network running in a huge seimconductor wafer mfg. facility and bought us some time while the manufacturer figured out what the problem was. Gil From vcf at siconic.com Sun Aug 28 20:36:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > Procomm had a scripting language that was really cool. I remember once > setting up 5 or 6 older PCs with Procom to watch the console ports on a > bunch of ATM routers that were having a problem. We would watch for any of > them to show certain symptoms on the console ports and reboot the router if > it showed a failure. It kept the network running in a huge seimconductor > wafer mfg. facility and bought us some time while the manufacturer figured > out what the problem was. Yes, the scripting is very powerful. You could even develop a BBS system with it. The version I just updated in my downloads directory has the full scripting capability, including online manual for the scripting language as well as a whole bunch of sample scripts to do various useful things. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Aug 28 21:36:19 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:36:19 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, which is a classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in the late 1960s? I recently acquired two of these interesting little pieces of computing history, along with the patch cords. I'd like to have the manual so I can learn more about it. Thanks, Ashley From news at computercollector.com Sun Aug 28 21:57:48 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:57:48 -0400 Subject: Portable Altair Message-ID: <200508290306.j7T36m33055792@keith.ezwind.net> Hi folks, I posted this message tonight to a couple of Altair sites, but might as well ask on the big list too: does anyone know about the existence of a portable Altair, which was designed as the "Altair 2"...? According to Steven Levy's book "Hackers" (p. 257), by mid-1976, Ed Roberts "had been designing an exciting new Altair 2 computer -- a high-powered, compact machine which could fit inside a briefcase" before selling the company to Pertec. I'm more interested in the computer's size / form factor than its technical abilities, since I mostly study the history of portable systems. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 28 22:09:40 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:09:40 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: "Ashley Carder" > Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, > which is a classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in > the late 1960s? I recently acquired two of these interesting > little pieces of computing history, along with the patch cords. > I'd like to have the manual so I can learn more about it. I have a couple of copies of the "Computer Lab Workbook". Do either of yours have a complete set of patch cords? Vince From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Aug 28 23:23:45 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:23:45 -0500 Subject: PhotoEZ....Re: Restoring an Altair 680 -- logo silkscreen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508290433.j7T4Xcur056360@keith.ezwind.net> In the 8800 that is exactly what it is called - a Turnkey model. I was not aware that there was a Turnkey 680 as well. It was intended for control applications where you could lock the system after it was up and running. Gil ... > > But now I have to find somebody who has scanned a good > version of the > > front panel for an Altair 680. I hope someone who has an Altair 680 > > could offer this. > > I have a 680 but it's a weird turnkey version with no front > panel (just a switch and maybe a reset button). > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival From tomj at wps.com Sun Aug 28 23:53:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <430F09FB.4260.24553BB9@localhost> References: <20050825122321.Y955@fiche.wps.com> <430F09FB.4260.24553BB9@localhost> Message-ID: <20050828214619.B710@fiche.wps.com> >>> Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable >>> gimcrack. >> what does it mean? > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > To my understanding a gimcrack is a rather styled up/flashy/loud > object without any real value. Like a fancy and impressive demo > of a new OS where all you can do is change the colour ... Well, > I guess PowerPoint is the ultimative tool for Gimcrack makers. I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. The HP-16c beats the pants off it though. I've had one of those since it was new! It's one of my asolutely favorite objects. It's only on it's 3rd set of batteries since new, too. Neil Colvin bought all Phoenix Software employees one one xmas. The TI doesn't do integer decimal arithmetic nor variable word width. Too bad. It'll be the one I use at work though. From tomj at wps.com Mon Aug 29 00:00:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <430FBA99.27441.47A2C4DA@localhost> References: <430FBA99.27441.47A2C4DA@localhost> Message-ID: <20050828215411.R710@fiche.wps.com> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Brian Knittel wrote: > Does anybody out there know for certain when the > term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, > and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that > he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what > he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? "Basic Input Output System" is a bit too generic for anyone to claim originality. > > Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M > floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how > did CP/M machines boot? Though there were many wildly different schemas, CP/M machines often had the simplest possible boot ROM (PROM, EPROM) because EPROMs were expensive (and product change rate was very high :-), that loaded the BIOS, which loaded BDOS. This is per Digital Research suggestion. From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 29 06:30:05 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:30:05 -0400 Subject: Link to scanned images...Re: PhotoEZ....Re: Restoring an Altair 680 -- logo silkscreen In-Reply-To: <200508290433.j7T4Xcur056360@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508290433.j7T4Xcur056360@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4312F1BD.3090501@comcast.net> Thanks all for the help. I have the first version of the Altair 680, I heard there was an Altair 680b, but I never seen a picture of it. I remember the Turnkey model too, but that never interested me much. I grew up around the Honeywell 1646 in High school and a front panel was always an essential component even with all the terminals around the school. I rcvd a reply on the altair computer club newsgroup from Tom at virtualaltair.com with scanned image of the front panel at several different resolutions. Here's the link, if anyone needs this too. http://www.virtualaltair.com/systems/680/images/680DP75.jpg http://www.virtualaltair.com/systems/680/images/680DP150.jpg http://www.virtualaltair.com/systems/680/images/680DP300.jpg http://www.virtualaltair.com/systems/680/images/680DP600.jpg http://www.virtualaltair.com/systems/680/images/680DP1200.jpg =Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gil Carrick wrote: >In the 8800 that is exactly what it is called - a Turnkey model. I was not >aware that there was a Turnkey 680 as well. It was intended for control >applications where you could lock the system after it was up and running. > >Gil > >... > > > >>>But now I have to find somebody who has scanned a good >>> >>> >>version of the >> >> >>>front panel for an Altair 680. I hope someone who has an Altair 680 >>>could offer this. >>> >>> >>I have a 680 but it's a weird turnkey version with no front >>panel (just a switch and maybe a reset button). >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>Computer Festival >> >> > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Aug 29 07:25:35 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:25:35 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E4C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* need the +12V. I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 29 07:30:35 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:30:35 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <200508290444.j7T4gpZV060458@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200508291230.j7TCUSYG006571@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I can't say for sure if Gary was the first to use the term BIOS, but it was being used by Gary in CP/M long before 1978 -- I'd say in late 1975, probably, and definitely by 1976. A friend bought a copy of CP/M in 1975 (I know it was 1975, because I was in Atlanta at the time with the friend (who happens to be Dale Heatherington, a partner in the modem firm of DC Hayes, for whom the "Heatherington patents" were named), and I moved from Atlanta to Charlotte in late 1975). In 1976, Imsai was offering CP/M version 1.3 with the dual-Calcomp disk system. All of the documentation for all of these used the term BIOS, as did the source code for the BIOS' supplied with CP/M on disk (for the Intel development system). The BIOS resided on disk, as part of the system tracks, it was the last 7 sectors of the 2nd track (track 1). From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 07:46:06 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <200508290306.j7T36m33055792@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050829124606.18865.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_attache.asp --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Hi folks, > > I posted this message tonight to a couple of Altair > sites, but might as well > ask on the big list too: does anyone know about the > existence of a portable > Altair, which was designed as the "Altair 2"...? > According to Steven Levy's > book "Hackers" (p. 257), by mid-1976, Ed Roberts > "had been designing an > exciting new Altair 2 computer -- a high-powered, > compact machine which > could fit inside a briefcase" before selling the > company to Pertec. > > I'm more interested in the computer's size / form > factor than its technical > abilities, since I mostly study the history of > portable systems. > > - Evan > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: > http://www.snarc.net > Also see: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ > Where did PDAs come from? > http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm > > *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer > Collector Newsletter > - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / > Write for us! > - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, > we cover it all > - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: > news at computercollector.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 29 08:17:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:17:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? References: <002701c5aaa8$c6950610$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <17171.2771.467443.293696@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: >> Does anyone have an ASCII/terminal font for Windows that has only >> the standard ASCII chars (32-127) which are also replicated at the >> extended address (i.e., 160-255) instead of the PC OEM graphics >> chars? I can't find a way to force 7-bit ASCII chars in Tera Term >> so when I use it with my Altair I frequently get PC graphics >> characters on the screen. Vintage> What the heck is sending ASCII characters > 127 to your Vintage> terminal and why? Sometimes you run into ancient systems that think the 8th bit is supposed to be parity, or should always be set, or some foolishness like that. 2BSD is another example... paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 29 08:26:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:26:17 -0400 Subject: CP/M 1.0? (was Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed) Message-ID: <0ILZ00FF0JY9QVS0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP/M 1.0? (was Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed) > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:57:16 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Does anyone have a copy of CP/M 1.0 or know if such a version was ever >> released? What about 1.1, 1.2, ... ? > >1.3 is the earliest I had. (And the original floppy is in Don Maslin's >archives should they ever be recovered.) I think I remember Don saying >it was the earliest he'd seen. He had lots of 2.2 of course for countless >machines but only a handful of 1.4, 2.0, etc, (and most of those came from >me too!) > >The ones I gave Don were official Digital Research distribution floppies, >the oldest hand-labeled with a serial number. > >I am under the impression that earlier versions were not nearly so >flexible as regards to customization to a wide variety of machines. > >Tim. The earliest I've worked with was 1.3 and yes, before V2 it was a major task to get it up and runnning on a new machine as the disk driver portion of the code was not in the "bios". When I was at PCC'76 (in NJ) there was a presentation on CP/M and the discussion was around moving it to new and different hardware plus comments that V1.4 would be better in that the basic terminal (CON:, LST,, PUN:, RDR:) would be an easily modified module. I tried to move V1.4 to a Horizon and it was not a fun task nor was it fully successful. It required many hours of dissassembly and plenty of head scratching on how the disk was wired in. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 29 08:29:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:29:13 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0ILZ00BTZK35FYX7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Barry Watzman" > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:30:35 -0400 > To: > > >I can't say for sure if Gary was the first to use the term BIOS, but it was >being used by Gary in CP/M long before 1978 -- I'd say in late 1975, >probably, and definitely by 1976. A friend bought a copy of CP/M in 1975 (I >know it was 1975, because I was in Atlanta at the time with the friend (who >happens to be Dale Heatherington, a partner in the modem firm of DC Hayes, >for whom the "Heatherington patents" were named), and I moved from Atlanta >to Charlotte in late 1975). In 1976, Imsai was offering CP/M version 1.3 >with the dual-Calcomp disk system. All of the documentation for all of >these used the term BIOS, as did the source code for the BIOS' supplied with >CP/M on disk (for the Intel development system). The BIOS resided on disk, >as part of the system tracks, it was the last 7 sectors of the 2nd track >(track 1). I can say publicly in 1976 I'd heard it used by none other than. The event was PCC'76 down on the NJ boardwalk. Allison From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 29 08:39:06 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:39:06 +0200 Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <20050828214619.B710@fiche.wps.com> References: <430F09FB.4260.24553BB9@localhost> Message-ID: <43132C1A.32621.347A85DA@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2005 21:53 meinte Tom Jennings: > >>> Got a TI Programmer calculator, near-new condition. $20. Portable > >>> gimcrack. > >> what does it mean? > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Hans Franke wrote: > > To my understanding a gimcrack is a rather styled up/flashy/loud > > object without any real value. Like a fancy and impressive demo > > of a new OS where all you can do is change the colour ... Well, > > I guess PowerPoint is the ultimative tool for Gimcrack makers. > I didn't realize it was so disparaging. As always relative to your view point (cliping). > I meant more like gewgaw, > knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. That would include things like a Porsche, wouldn't it? Now, after all, you're the English speaker, me is just a dilettante butchering the language :) Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Aug 29 09:01:42 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:01:42 +0100 Subject: WTD: Solartron 7150plus service manual Message-ID: <98b90da24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I know this is a bit off topic, but I also know that a few classiccmp'ers have fairly extensive test equipment manual "collections", so here goes... My Solartron 7150plus bench DMM packed up this morning - one minute I was checking a measurement, the next it started hissing and smoke poured out of the back. I can't see anything obviously burned, but I want to take some measurements with my spare DMM to make sure everything's OK before I power it back up. Catch: I don't know what readings I should be getting at the various test points. It does have a selftest function, but the error code list in the ops manual just says "Refer to service manual" for most of them. If anyone here has a copy of the 7150plus service manual, I'd be willing to pay for a photocopy or scan of the manual. I've been quoted ?100+P&P+VAT for a manual from Solartron, and none of the T&M manual dealers I've checked have got any of the 7150plus documents - either ops or service. Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... He's dead, Jim ... Kick him if you don't believe me From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Aug 29 09:26:18 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:26:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <16911666.1125325578818.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, >> which is a classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in >> the late 1960s? I recently acquired two of these interesting >> little pieces of computing history, along with the patch cords. >> I'd like to have the manual so I can learn more about it. > > I have a couple of copies of the "Computer Lab Workbook". > > Do either of yours have a complete set of patch cords? > > Vince They both have a number of different length patch cords with them, but since I don't have the documentation for them, I'm not sure what constitutes a complete set. Ashley From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 29 10:45:31 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:45:31 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <16911666.1125325578818.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: "Ashley Carder" > > I have a couple of copies of the "Computer Lab Workbook". > > > > Do either of yours have a complete set of patch cords? > > > > Vince > > They both have a number of different length patch cords with them, but > since I don't have the documentation for them, I'm not sure what > constitutes a complete set. Unfortunately, I can't find that information in the workbook, either. There is a picture of some patch cords on the cover, and I can count them, but that's not exactly authoritative. (There's only one green wire shown, for instance, and mine has four.) Vince From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 29 11:00:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <20050828214619.B710@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, > knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. Don't forget bric-a-brac and whatnot. How many words are there in the English language to describe quaint but useless crap and what does that say about our culture? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 29 11:03:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <20050829124606.18865.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, steve wrote: > http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_attache.asp That's the one, although I think by the time it sold it was known as the Icom Attache. I've only seen a couple of these in circulation. I imagine not many (less than 100?) sold. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Mon Aug 29 11:10:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:10:57 -0400 Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <200508290306.j7T36m33055792@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200508291620.j7TGKNZv063085@keith.ezwind.net> Thanks to all who sent me this link: http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_attache.asp ... I guess the definition of "portable" varies quite a bit! Even the text of this ad refers to it as a "desktop" computer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:58 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Portable Altair Hi folks, I posted this message tonight to a couple of Altair sites, but might as well ask on the big list too: does anyone know about the existence of a portable Altair, which was designed as the "Altair 2"...? According to Steven Levy's book "Hackers" (p. 257), by mid-1976, Ed Roberts "had been designing an exciting new Altair 2 computer -- a high-powered, compact machine which could fit inside a briefcase" before selling the company to Pertec. I'm more interested in the computer's size / form factor than its technical abilities, since I mostly study the history of portable systems. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From infomagic at localisp.com Mon Aug 29 11:16:09 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: Fw: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility (MISSING MESSAGE) Message-ID: <3203d0306fa63efc8ee234f629aa7fd5@localisp.com> In issue 54, I received two replies to the message I sent Saturday evening, but my original message was not in any of issues 53, 54, or 55. I have noticed this kind of "disconnect" before, both with my own message and with messages from others. I receive the cctech "daily digest" (often there are many each day), and I send my messages individually from my email client to the cctech at classiccmp.org address. If there is a message board or forum, I am not aware of it. Am I missing something in my communications connections? Are you folks using some other tools or websites? Was my messge deliberately deleted, or has it not arrived in the digest yet? Is this a normal behavior, or a symptom of something I'm not doing right? Thanks for any help you can provide, -John M. -----Original message----- From: infomagic infomagic at localisp.com Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:46:20 -0400 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2 floppy drives. Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a Model I, III, or IV ?? TIA, -John From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 29 11:52:01 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:52:01 -0500 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, Apologies, I'm probably at least 2 years off-topic. Have a Sun Ultra 1 with a non-functional Quantum hard drive, model number seems to be VK45JZF1. It's in a sled with a lever on the front, and the connector is a funky thing with a central ridge rather than pins. This is for a work project. Where can I find a replacement fairly quickly? How much should I expect to pay? What's with the strange interface? Replies here would be better, on-list OK. TIA! -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Aug 29 12:15:48 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:15:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <26368106.1125335748700.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> From: "Ashley Carder" >> > I have a couple of copies of the "Computer Lab Workbook". >> > >> > Do either of yours have a complete set of patch cords? >> > >> > Vince >> >> They both have a number of different length patch cords with them, but >> since I don't have the documentation for them, I'm not sure what >> constitutes a complete set. > > Unfortunately, I can't find that information in the workbook, either. > There is a picture of some patch cords on the cover, and I can count > them, but that's not exactly authoritative. (There's only one green > wire shown, for instance, and mine has four.) > > Vince I will count mine tonight when I get home from work and let you know how many of which types are included with my two Computer Labs. Ashley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 11:51:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:51:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 Message-ID: Does anyone have the pinout for the Motorola MC6881 or MC3449 chip? (16 pin DIL package) (Those 2 devices are equivalents, the ones I have are marked with both numbers.). From what I can tell, it's a triple bidirectional bus switch. They are used in the HP37201 HPIB extender, HP seem to have created separate data buses for the memroy and I/O chips. I guess this device is on-topic here, mine dates from 1979, a pair of them allow an HPIB bus to be fed over various types of serial link, including asynchronous and synchronous modems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 11:53:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: 6800 opcode $02 Message-ID: Does anyone know what Opcode $02 is on a Motorola 6800 processor. It's not defined in the data sheet, but I have a device which forces that instruction onto the data bus in one of the test modes. Is it, by any chance, the infamous HCF instruction? -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 29 12:28:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:28:18 -0400 Subject: Portable Altair Message-ID: <0ILZ00674V5KUC84@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Portable Altair > From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:10:57 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Thanks to all who sent me this link: >http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_attache.asp ... I guess >the definition of "portable" varies quite a bit! Even the text of this ad >refers to it as a "desktop" computer. In that era (pre 1981) portable was very difficult as power needs were very high. The only CMOS cpus were 1802 and 6100(PDP-8) for the most part. So portable was the same as color TV,IE: you can pick up by a provided handle and move it a distance. Compared to a fully loaded NS* or altair8800B (at some 60 pounds for the cpu box and another 60 for the disk box) the idea of portable (transportable) is significant. At that time I did build one machine with a dual floppy and a minimal PS for 4 s100slots (Z80, 64k ram, VDM1, FDC) that was very light. Still required carrying a keyboard, monitor, System box the the total package was under 40 pounds. FYI: The bulk of the weight was the two Floppies (SA400s diecast aluminum) and the power transformer. lightweight switching supplies were rare then. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' >Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 10:58 PM >To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >Subject: Portable Altair > >Hi folks, > >I posted this message tonight to a couple of Altair sites, but might as well >ask on the big list too: does anyone know about the existence of a portable >Altair, which was designed as the "Altair 2"...? According to Steven Levy's >book "Hackers" (p. 257), by mid-1976, Ed Roberts "had been designing an >exciting new Altair 2 computer -- a high-powered, compact machine which >could fit inside a briefcase" before selling the company to Pertec. > >I'm more interested in the computer's size / form factor than its technical >abilities, since I mostly study the history of portable systems. > > - Evan > >----------------------------------------- >Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ >Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm > >*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter >- 770 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Aug 29 12:41:02 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:41:02 -0400 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BCF@cpexchange.olf.com> Just grab any 80-pin ultra scsi drive. Just be careful about heat dissipation though. I just bought two 73Gb scsi drives for my Ultra 2 on ebay for $150. Make sure whatever drive you buy that it is a 1" height drive otherwise it will NOT fit in the drive cage. Remove the existing sleds from the quantum drive and put it on the new drive and slip it in. Very easy to do. IIRC, the SCSI connector is a ULTRA 160, but you can use the higher rates as it is backward compatible. The model I bought are the Seagate Cheetah ST373307LC (UlTRA 320 80-pin SCSI drives). Make sure it is 80-pin and NOT 68-pin!!! Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley at swri.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 12:52 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? > > > All, > Apologies, I'm probably at least 2 years off-topic. > > Have a Sun Ultra 1 with a non-functional Quantum hard drive, > model number seems to be VK45JZF1. It's in a sled with a lever on the > front, and the connector is a funky thing with a central ridge rather > than pins. This is for a work project. > > Where can I find a replacement fairly quickly? > > How much should I expect to pay? > > What's with the strange interface? > > Replies here would be better, on-list OK. > > TIA! > > -- > - Mark > 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 29 12:44:40 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:44:40 -0700 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:52 AM -0500 8/29/05, Mark Tapley wrote: >All, > Apologies, I'm probably at least 2 years off-topic. Even if it's a Ultra 1/200E, it came out over 8 years ago, the Ultra 1/140 came out almost 10 years ago I believe. > Have a Sun Ultra 1 with a non-functional Quantum hard drive, >model number seems to be VK45JZF1. It's in a sled with a lever on >the front, and the connector is a funky thing with a central ridge >rather than pins. This is for a work project. One thing to keep in mind is that the cooler running the drive, the better. Though if it's in an Air Conditioned location (preferably a computer room) this isn't quite so critical. I've cooked more than one disk in my Sun HW. > Where can I find a replacement fairly quickly? eBay, or any online dealer that carries SCA SCSI HD's. If you're close to a Fry's, they might have them (the one near us normally has at least one model I believe). Just do a search on Google or eBay for "SCA SCSI" (loose the quotes). > How much should I expect to pay? Depends on where you get the drive, and how big. I typically get used ones for free. A new one will run you anywhere from $200 on up. > What's with the strange interface? That's not strange, it's an SCA SCSI drive (I believe the controller is UW-SCSI, though on a Ultra 1, it might just be Wide SCSI). You should be able to use any SCA drive though. > Replies here would be better, on-list OK. I'm replying to both. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 29 12:59:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508291759.KAA28202@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>>From: "Allison" >>> >>>> >>>>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>>> From: "Brian Knittel" >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> >>>>Hi all, >>>> >>>>Does anybody out there know for certain when the >>>>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >>>>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >>>>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >>>>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? >>> >>>The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with >>>V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. >>> >>>>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >>>>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >>>>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >>>>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >>>>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >>>>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. >>> >>>The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the >>>CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks >>>of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot >>>rom. >> >>Hi >> My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >>and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >>code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >>controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >>Dwight > >While possible even the DMA controller needed logic to get >it going. The earliest machines (8080) used front pannels >to manually enter a small boot into ram. > >Most of the Intel machines however had at least minimal >rom if only there to boot a booter. > >As it would turn out a DMA controller before the 8257 >(LSI device) was a lot of electronics in itself. They >were rare and not often seen in micros as it represents >a lot of hardware even in minimal form. > >Identify that machine you have and it's vintage. > >Allison > Hi Allison I did tell a slight fib, there is truly not ROMs or PROMs in my IMSAI. There is no ROM code that runs on the 8080 that gets the machine started. The controller does have PROMs in it but not for the 8080. The controller for the drives exist in the drive box. There is a bus interface card in the IMSAI. The controller is all TTL based and has several small PROMs to control sequencing for read/write/format operations. Only small additional states are needed to do the bootstrap. Mainly resetting registers and then doing a single sector read. On the IMSAI, to boot, all I do is a STOP, RESET. The drive reads the first sector that has the code to load the rest. I then execute from address 0000 and it brings up the rest of CP/M. All of the 8080 code exist on the disk ( I know this because I built up this implementation of CP/M my self from scratch ). The drive has the typical sounding name of "Digital Systems" on it. I was told that this was a common drive setup before FDC chips came in to being. The controller part was common to other small computer systems that used this controller with different bus interface cards. I don't know the date of my machine but I can look it up, next time I'm with my machine. I was told the controller design existed before S-100 and was one of the earliest types of controllers used on S-100 systems since it only required the bus interface card that is mostly just buffers and some logic to handle unique S-100 bus protocol. The controller is quite large. It covers the area of two 8 inch drives laying flat plus supply. When I got the machine, I had not disk at all. I also noted that there was no ROM in the IMSAI. After asking around, I found a friend that had schematics for the controller and interface card but no software. He'd had an early machine and had replaced his controller with a newer floppy controller card. I hand decoded the PROMs on the controller to determined how the state machine did its control of the drive. I then wrote my own bootstrap to load onto the first sector. I got a copy of CP/M2.2 from Gaby's web page. Of course, like many of these old machines, it also needed several replacement parts to get it going. I have since been in contact with another fellow that has one of these controllers and he had a boot disk! The code on it was almost identical to mine :) I'll look at the date codes of my machine, the next time I have access to it. So, in a sense, you are correct that there needs to be code someplace but all the reset does is clears the registers and starts the state machine that is the controller. The 8080 does nothing until the first sector is loaded. Seeing how simple this was, I'm surprised that early FDC chips didn't include this ability. I guess it was that most didn't expect to be in DMA setups. Dwight From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 29 13:02:23 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:02:23 -0600 Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43134DAF.7010707@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >>I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, >>knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. >> >> > >Don't forget bric-a-brac and whatnot. > >How many words are there in the English language to describe quaint but >useless crap and what does that say about our culture? ;) > > > Scrimshaw is probably a less generic term (i.e. nautical knickknancks), but still covers a lot of ground. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Aug 29 13:06:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:06:29 -0400 Subject: I'm tripping References: <43134DAF.7010707@srv.net> Message-ID: <17171.20133.694406.192849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: >>> I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, >>> knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. >>> >>> >> Don't forget bric-a-brac and whatnot. >> >> How many words are there in the English language to describe >> quaint but useless crap and what does that say about our culture? Kevin> Scrimshaw is probably a less generic term (i.e. nautical Kevin> knickknancks), but still covers a lot of ground. Not even close. Scrimshaw very specifically means engravings on ivory, traditionally made by sailors on sailing ships in their spare time. It doesn't mean knickknacks or anything like it; it refers to a category of art. paul From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 13:39:56 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:39:56 +0100 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BCF@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BCF@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Just grab any 80-pin ultra scsi drive. Just be careful about heat > dissipation though. I just bought two 73Gb scsi drives for my Ultra 2 on > ebay for $150. Make sure whatever drive you buy that it is a 1" height > drive otherwise it will NOT fit in the drive cage. Incorrect. The U1 drive cage will in fact hold a 1.6" drive in the lower slot. I wouldn't want to run a 1.6" and a 1" together in there for heat dissipation reasons (they will fit, I've tried, but they end up *very* close together), however if the machine only has one disk in it, a 1.6" in the bottom slot will be fine. Ed. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 29 13:47:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:47:28 -0500 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BCF@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <43135840.7010703@mdrconsult.com> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 8/29/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >>Just grab any 80-pin ultra scsi drive. Just be careful about heat >>dissipation though. I just bought two 73Gb scsi drives for my Ultra 2 on >>ebay for $150. Make sure whatever drive you buy that it is a 1" height >>drive otherwise it will NOT fit in the drive cage. > > > Incorrect. The U1 drive cage will in fact hold a 1.6" drive in the lower slot. Not necessarily. *Some* Ultra1 systems will accept a 1.6" disk, but some won't. That's a physical limitation of the backplane, rail guides and SCA connector, not a question of "supported configuration". > I wouldn't want to run a 1.6" and a 1" together in there for heat > dissipation reasons (they will fit, I've tried, but they end up *very* > close together), however if the machine only has one disk in it, a > 1.6" in the bottom slot will be fine. Heat is likely to be an issue with 2 high-RPM disks, even with a pair of 1" drives. Air flow is side-to-side, so making sure there's ample space on both sides of the system helps quite a lot. Doc From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Aug 29 13:53:34 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:53:34 -0400 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BD7@cpexchange.olf.com> I guess for the Ultra 1. I couldn't do that with my Ultra 2. It just wound not fit in there and believe me I tried. Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com [mailto:listmailgoeshere at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 2:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? > > > On 8/29/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > Just grab any 80-pin ultra scsi drive. Just be careful about heat > > dissipation though. I just bought two 73Gb scsi drives for > my Ultra 2 > > on ebay for $150. Make sure whatever drive you buy that it is a 1" > > height drive otherwise it will NOT fit in the drive cage. > > Incorrect. The U1 drive cage will in fact hold a 1.6" drive > in the lower slot. > > I wouldn't want to run a 1.6" and a 1" together in there for > heat dissipation reasons (they will fit, I've tried, but they > end up *very* close together), however if the machine only > has one disk in it, a 1.6" in the bottom slot will be fine. > > Ed. > From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Aug 29 13:58:16 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:58:16 -0400 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BDA@cpexchange.olf.com> I heard somewhere that even if you are only using one drive, you should STILL add a dummy drive in the second slot so that airflow is better. I currently have two 9.1GB drives on my Ultra 2 and Solaris 10 is a pig. I am planning on using one of my new drives for Solaris and still leave one of the 9.1GB drives as /export/home. The other drive is going into my PC as a dual Linux/Solaris installation along side my IDE-based Windows installation... Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc at mdrconsult.com] > Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 2:47 PM > To: General at mdrconsult.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? > > > listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > On 8/29/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > > >>Just grab any 80-pin ultra scsi drive. Just be careful about heat > >>dissipation though. I just bought two 73Gb scsi drives for > my Ultra 2 > >>on ebay for $150. Make sure whatever drive you buy that it is a 1" > >>height drive otherwise it will NOT fit in the drive cage. > > > > > > Incorrect. The U1 drive cage will in fact hold a 1.6" drive in the > > lower slot. > > Not necessarily. *Some* Ultra1 systems will accept a 1.6" > disk, but > some won't. That's a physical limitation of the backplane, > rail guides > and SCA connector, not a question of "supported configuration". > > > I wouldn't want to run a 1.6" and a 1" together in there for heat > > dissipation reasons (they will fit, I've tried, but they > end up *very* > > close together), however if the machine only has one disk in it, a > > 1.6" in the bottom slot will be fine. > > Heat is likely to be an issue with 2 high-RPM disks, even > with a pair > of 1" drives. Air flow is side-to-side, so making sure there's ample > space on both sides of the system helps quite a lot. > > > Doc > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 29 14:41:06 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:41:06 -0700 Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 References: Message-ID: <431364D3.8568A3B9@cs.ubc.ca> ... just put up the following: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/XC6881.gif If you need more electrical specs let me know. Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone have the pinout for the Motorola MC6881 or MC3449 chip? (16 > pin DIL package) (Those 2 devices are equivalents, the ones I have are > marked with both numbers.). From what I can tell, it's a triple > bidirectional bus switch. > > They are used in the HP37201 HPIB extender, HP seem to have created > separate data buses for the memroy and I/O chips. I guess this device is > on-topic here, mine dates from 1979, a pair of them allow an HPIB bus to > be fed over various types of serial link, including asynchronous and > synchronous modems. > > -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 29 14:46:25 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: NeXT cube to give away? Message-ID: All, one of those days. comp.sys.next.marketplace contained the following, which I forward FWIW. I can't get either the from: or the reply-to: address to work. Not so surprised about the reply-to:, considering. Anyone near Chicago that wants to spend some time tracing Beverly down, good luck! If you are successful, I may be able to help with a KB, I have lots of those to spare (dirty, can test for functionality). Thanks to lots of you for help on the Sun Ultra drive! --- Path: sn-us!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-07!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!22d5151e!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.unix.misc From: "Bev A. Kupf" Subject: Want a piece of nostalgia? Giving my NeXT cube away Organization: Bev's House of Pancakes Reply-To: orinxhcs at foptybony.arg (ebg13) Followup-To: comp.sys.next.marketplace Message-ID: Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:41:25 GMT I have a NeXT cube that hasn't been used in 6 years. 25 Mhz 68040, 64 Mb RAM, 2 GB drive (may not be functional). I no longer have the monitor or keyboard or mouse. If you'd like this, write back within a day to I need to pass it on to someone, or toss it by Saturday or Sunday, and it'll break my heart to toss it - my thesis was written on it ... Be great if you could just pick it up - I'm in Chicago. Beverly -- Many a smale maketh a grate -- Geoffrey Chaucer --- -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 29 14:50:41 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:50:41 -0600 Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <17171.20133.694406.192849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <43134DAF.7010707@srv.net> <17171.20133.694406.192849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43136711.3070308@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > >>> I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, > >>> knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. > >>> > >>> > >> Don't forget bric-a-brac and whatnot. > >> > >> How many words are there in the English language to describe > >> quaint but useless crap and what does that say about our culture? > > Kevin> Scrimshaw is probably a less generic term (i.e. nautical > Kevin> knickknancks), but still covers a lot of ground. > >Not even close. Scrimshaw very specifically means engravings on >ivory, traditionally made by sailors on sailing ships in their spare >time. It doesn't mean knickknacks or anything like it; it refers to >a category of art. > > I've heard it applied to other objects, probably wrongly, such as a boat made from beef bones. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 29 15:09:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:09:58 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0IM0008BM2MYVIT1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:59:55 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Hi Allison > I did tell a slight fib, there is truly not ROMs or >PROMs in my IMSAI. There is no ROM code that runs on the >8080 that gets the machine started. The controller does >have PROMs in it but not for the 8080. > The controller for the drives exist in the drive box. >There is a bus interface card in the IMSAI. The controller >is all TTL based and has several small PROMs to control >sequencing for read/write/format operations. Only >small additional states are needed to do the bootstrap. >Mainly resetting registers and then doing a single sector >read. On the IMSAI, to boot, all I do is a STOP, RESET. >The drive reads the first sector that has the code to >load the rest. I then execute from address 0000 and >it brings up the rest of CP/M. All of the 8080 code >exist on the disk ( I know this because I built up this >implementation of CP/M my self from scratch ). > The drive has the typical sounding name of "Digital >Systems" on it. I was told that this was a common >drive setup before FDC chips came in to being. The >controller part was common to other small computer systems >that used this controller with different bus interface >cards. I don't know the date of my machine but I can >look it up, next time I'm with my machine. I was told >the controller design existed before S-100 and was one >of the earliest types of controllers used on S-100 systems >since it only required the bus interface card that >is mostly just buffers and some logic to handle >unique S-100 bus protocol. > The controller is quite large. It covers the area of >two 8 inch drives laying flat plus supply. When I got the >machine, I had not disk at all. I also noted that there was >no ROM in the IMSAI. After asking around, I found a >friend that had schematics for the controller and interface >card but no software. He'd had an early machine and >had replaced his controller with a newer floppy controller >card. I hand decoded the PROMs on the controller to determined >how the state machine did its control of the drive. >I then wrote my own bootstrap to load onto the first >sector. I got a copy of CP/M2.2 from Gaby's web page. >Of course, like many of these old machines, it also >needed several replacement parts to get it going. > I have since been in contact with another fellow that >has one of these controllers and he had a boot disk! >The code on it was almost identical to mine :) > I'll look at the date codes of my machine, the next time >I have access to it. > So, in a sense, you are correct that there needs to be >code someplace but all the reset does is clears the registers >and starts the state machine that is the controller. The >8080 does nothing until the first sector is loaded. Seeing >how simple this was, I'm surprised that early FDC >chips didn't include this ability. I guess it was that >most didn't expect to be in DMA setups. >Dwight > Ah, you answer a question. Actually I'd only seen one of those and indeed they were very expensive and rare then and now. The typical micro system of the day didn't have DMA due to the hardware and associated cost. Not to forget that state machine is a simple processor with a fixed program so it's cheating and right fine hardware too. ;) The DSD880 and RX01/02 drives are of a similar design with a local CPU (crude TTL logic state hardware or 2901s) to do all the heavy lifiting at that floppy interface end with a trivial interface to the processor bus. Neither include boot logic. As to DMA on FDCs well SMC did one that had it but it was a PITA to use as every bus is differnt and timing plus control signals required a lot of work to integrate. Most FDCs were trying to be generic and to keep die size down (hence cost) things were not done that would make the chip system specific. Also FDC development from 1975 to 1980 was like CPUs, RAM and Eproms. A constant progression of increased capability and speed. The first parts (pre WD1771) were barely a sync USART with AM detection and required considerable CPU handholding. There were a few controllers that faked DMA by using a second FDC and their value was they could load memory even if the main cpu was locked up assuming Ram and the bus worked ok. But the board obviously was a temporary master and had some code. But if you want typical then look no further than the intel MDS. That was the default lauching platform for from what I'd seen for 1.3, 1.4 and later. More than a few Altair and IMSAI users had to toggle in a relatively short boot to get going. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 14:42:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 In-Reply-To: <431364D3.8568A3B9@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 29, 5 12:41:06 pm Message-ID: > > ... just put up the following: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/XC6881.gif > > If you need more electrical specs let me know. Thanks, I will take a look tomorrow when I am on a machine with some kind of graphical display... -tony From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Aug 29 15:25:49 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:25:49 +0100 Subject: NeXT cube to give away? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050829212143.051c1dc0@pop.freeserve.net> At 20:46 29/08/2005, Mark Tapley wrote: > comp.sys.next.marketplace contained the following, which I > forward FWIW. I can't get either the from: or the reply-to: address to > work. Not so surprised about the reply-to:, considering. > >Reply-To: orinxhcs at foptybony.arg (ebg13) FWIW, the reply-to is ROT13'd, an elderly way of hiding text on usenet, and translates to "bevakupf at sbcglobal.net (rot13)" the same email address as quoted in the body of the email. Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 29 15:29:01 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:29:01 -0700 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BDA@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BDA@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: At 2:58 PM -0400 8/29/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >I heard somewhere that even if you are only using one drive, you should >STILL add a dummy drive in the second slot so that airflow is better. I >currently have two 9.1GB drives on my Ultra 2 and Solaris 10 is a pig. I am >planning on using one of my new drives for Solaris and still leave one of >the 9.1GB drives as /export/home. The other drive is going into my PC as a >dual Linux/Solaris installation along side my IDE-based Windows >installation... Personally I'm of the opinion that you should always run a Sun system with at least two drives. That way you can have your swap on something other than your main disk. BTW, along the lines of what fits and what doesn't, in an Ultra 60 you can put 2 1.6" drives with plenty of room. In a Sun 711 enclosure you can put either size in, but you can't put as many disks in if you're using 1.6" high drives (they take this all into account with how the SCA connectors are in the enclosure). Personally most of my disks are in JBOD canisters that will take 1.6" high speed disks and keep them nice and cool. Though I did have one start to overheat a couple weeks ago when it was 92F+ in here (it was at that point I realized they had a temp warning). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 29 15:31:57 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:31:57 -0500 Subject: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BD7@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545BD7@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200508291531.57587.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 29 August 2005 13:53, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > I guess for the Ultra 1. I couldn't do that with my Ultra 2. It > just wound not fit in there and believe me I tried. The Ultra 2 has a completely different chassis (internally at least) than the Ultra 1 does, especially where the hard drives go... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 29 16:00:45 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:00:45 +0200 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050829230045.3c8e4ccc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:44:40 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > What's with the strange interface? > That's not strange, it's an SCA SCSI drive Yes. It is just SCSI with SCA connector. This SCA connector was especially designed to make disks hot plugable. > (I believe the controller is UW-SCSI, though on a Ultra 1, it might > just be Wide SCSI). IIRC the U1 has only Fast 8 Bit SCSI and 10 MBit/s Ethernet. The U1e has wide SCSI and 100 MBit/s Ethernet. In addition the U1e has one UPA slot insted of one SBus slot for faster graphics. > You should be able to use any SCA drive though. Seconded. You can get anything from a 1 GB disk from ebay up to the latest, newest and fastetst disk with SCA connector from a hardware shop. The U1 can take two disks, the lower can be 1" or 1.6" high and the upper slot is limited to 1" height. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 16:09:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:09:04 -0400 Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone have the pinout for the Motorola MC6881 or MC3449 chip? IIRC, Commodore used MC3449s in their IEEE-488 equipped CPUs and disks (PETs, 2040s, 3040s, 4040s, etc.) I don't know about just pinouts, but they should be locatable in schematics on funet. -ethan From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 16:40:26 2005 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:40:26 -0700 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: References: <430E85C1.475343A8@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: selam, I just got it and have not powered it on. I do have the manual for it, and for the underlying m1000, so hopefully this will go better than my m200 did. it melted the rollers due to age. still need replacement rollers and service on that one. jim On 8/26/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > > > I have one of the card readers currently listed on Ebay. It is > > in perfect condition, and is equiped with RS232 interface, for > > convenient reading on a PC or whatever. > > Have you gotten the serial interface to work? > > > Biggest problem to deal with is age of rollers, and since these > > are taken from recent service, they should last longer than the > > originals. > > I'm not sure how old my M200 is or when it was last serviced, but I found > it under a pile at Mike Quinn Electronics years ago and when I put it back > into service it worked really well. It still does. I just ran 30,000 > cards through. It definitely needs some maintenance now as it makes a > harsh noise when it's operating. Will have to find time to open it up and > lubricate the bearings and what not. watch for the smog melting of the rollers too. -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Aug 29 17:02:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, jim stephens wrote: > I just got it and have not powered it on. I do have the manual for it, > and for the underlying m1000, so hopefully this will go better than my > m200 did. Ooh! Can you get the manual for the serial converter scanned or something? I'd love to get a copy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 29 17:20:24 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:20:24 -0400 Subject: VAXStation SIMMS In-Reply-To: <002001c5aadd$ca133d40$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <002001c5aadd$ca133d40$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <43138A28.5000005@bellsouth.net> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >>Are the MS44-AA and MS44L-AA the same? >>If not, what's the difference? Can I use an >>MS44L-AA in place of an MS44-AA??? > > > No, not exactly. The MS44L uses 60ns EDO SIMMs. > The MS44 is a different speed grade, but I cannot > find out exactly what right now. > > The suffix indicates the total memory size but > some of the sizes are achieved by shipping > multiple SIMMs of a smaller size. Again, I > used to have a chart but that seems to be hiding > right now. > > The original MS44 was used in systems like the > VAXstation 3100-76 and the DECsystem 5100. I > think the VS3100-76 used the MS44-BA 8MB part > (4 for a max. memory of 32MB, which could be > purchased with a part no. of MS44-DA). > > The MS44L was a later part intended for use in > the VAXstation 4000 series (and probably the > MicroVAX 3100 models later than the M10/M20[e]). > I think the VS3100-76 could make use of the > 4MB MS44L part, but don't quote me on that. > > Antonio Thanks for the info! I have a VS3100-76 with only 28MB and would like to increase the RAM, so I'll try the MS44L in it and see . . . Glen 0/0 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 17:00:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:00:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 29, 5 05:09:04 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone have the pinout for the Motorola MC6881 or MC3449 chip? > > IIRC, Commodore used MC3449s in their IEEE-488 equipped CPUs and disks > (PETs, 2040s, 3040s, 4040s, etc.) Are you sure you're not thinking of the MC3446 or something like that? Motorola made a number of GPIB buffers with numbers in that range (I've come across serveral of them, I have data sheets on them). The MC3449, as I now know, is basically a bidirectional multiplexer. I The I/O levels are TTL, not strictly GPIB levels. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 17:34:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:34:53 -0500 Subject: Wnated : Pinout for MC6881 or MC3449 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you sure you're not thinking of the MC3446 or something like that? > Motorola made a number of GPIB buffers with numbers in that range (I've > come across serveral of them, I have data sheets on them). Ah... I might be at that. Sorry for the confusion. -ethan From news at computercollector.com Mon Aug 29 17:39:44 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:39:44 -0400 Subject: Woo-hoo! Message-ID: <200508292248.j7TMmUnx067700@keith.ezwind.net> UPS delivered my Gavilan today, one day earlier than paid for. I want to open it, clean it, etc., before attempting to power it on. Anyone here worked one before? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 775 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Aug 29 18:00:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508292300.QAA29229@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > ---snip--- > >The DSD880 and RX01/02 drives are of a similar design with a local >CPU (crude TTL logic state hardware or 2901s) to do all the heavy >lifiting at that floppy interface end with a trivial interface >to the processor bus. Neither include boot logic. > >As to DMA on FDCs well SMC did one that had it but it was a PITA >to use as every bus is differnt and timing plus control signals >required a lot of work to integrate. Most FDCs were trying to be >generic and to keep die size down (hence cost) things were not >done that would make the chip system specific. ---snip--- Hi Allison It is interesting that they didn't include this. On my machine it isn't even more hardware. There is just one instruction in the state machine to load a sector count of 1. It then just does a normal read. Every thing else is just default reset values from the reset line. I remember thinking how trivial it was. I can understand that if the controller needed to know things like density, this might require more but it is a simple operation that could be easily added to any that have a state machine to run the controller operations. I can see why the FDC chips don't do this. There is a lot to setup but still, a default reset state could have easily provided the needed inital values. As I recall, the board has a jumper to not do the auto boot. I think the auto boot is a cool thing. Also, yes it is rare. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 20:49:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Woo-hoo! In-Reply-To: <200508292248.j7TMmUnx067700@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508292248.j7TMmUnx067700@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050829184257.N67712@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > UPS delivered my Gavilan today, one day earlier than paid for. > > I want to open it, clean it, etc., before attempting to power it on. Anyone > here worked one before? I gave all of my Gavilan stuff to Uncle Roger (several totes, including partial service manuals, some spare parts, etc.) Is yours 8 or 16 line display? 3" (earliest) or 3.5" drive? A Shugart #350 drive will fit and take the Gavilan faceplate if you want DS. GAVILAN MS-DOS 2.11K? or above will support PC style 720K format. Accessories include "bubble memory packs" to increase RAM, clip-on printer (thermal + ribbon) that can work with plain or thermal paper, clip-on 2nd 3.5" drive, external 5.25" drive (really just a special cable and ordinary SA400 interface drive) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 29 21:28:04 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:28:04 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks Message-ID: Hi everyone! I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. So my questions are: 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, while still leaving it an XT? 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. Regards, Julian From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 29 21:30:44 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:30:44 EDT Subject: 8 inch floppies available Message-ID: <76.5a6eed97.30451ed4@aol.com> I've got loads of 8 inch disks. Tell me how many you'd like and where to ship them. How about 10cents each? Fedex ground is the cheapest way to send if you want many. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Aug 29 21:39:39 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:39:39 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200508300249.j7U2naMv069577@keith.ezwind.net> ... > 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has > compatibility issues with some programs, but I'm not solid on > my information. There may be some exceptions, but I never had any problems. It was supposed to be somewhat faster so I suppose some programs might have shown timing dependency problems. Gil > > Regards, > > Julian > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Aug 29 18:25:34 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:25:34 +0000 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050830031757.JQYR27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Hi everyone! > > I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA > card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. > Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk > controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X > IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize > some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up > correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, > are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also > the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I > purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk > size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove > the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk > drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. > > So my questions are: > 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, > while still leaving it an XT? > 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with > some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. > > Regards, > > Julian This particlar can't handle this large due to decoding issues or capacity issues (1GB is too large for 8088 than needed), either the XT is a shoddy clone the TTL timings is not right if using a firmware add on to handle large IDE capacities. The SCSI is best for this if stuck with 8088. Otherwise keep under 500MB with IDE, not even 540, have to be under 500. Is the portable standard XT or baby AT layout? Go with 286 or 386DX then everything else will work as described. There are many 286 and 386 boards that has XT mounting holes layouts. Choose carefully, there are so many junk out there. Cheers, Wizard From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 22:19:17 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:19:17 -0400 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > Hi everyone! > > I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA > card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. > Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk > controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X ST02 uses NCR 53C90A I think. I think maybe the seagate bios only support 6 byte commands, thus limit the disk size to 1GB. It is not 53C90A's fault. It is not easy to find a bootable 8 bit SCSI card. I once had two. one was HB_A8 card, the other I forgot the brand. I could not recall how big the disk sizes they supported. > IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize > some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up > correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, > are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also > the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I > purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk > size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove > the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk > drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. > > So my questions are: > 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, > while still leaving it an XT? > 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with > some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. > > Regards, > > Julian > > > From news at computercollector.com Mon Aug 29 22:32:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:32:52 -0400 Subject: Woo-hoo! In-Reply-To: <20050829184257.N67712@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200508300341.j7U3fbL9069955@keith.ezwind.net> >>> Is yours 8 or 16 line display? Not sure... This weekend I'll try to make a new battery pack for it and power it up. >>> 3" (earliest) or 3.5" drive? The prior owner retrofitted it for the 3.5". Also seems to have the extra memory, and has the printer too, plus several manuals. (The manuals were mailed separately and I don't have them yet.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 9:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Woo-hoo! On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > UPS delivered my Gavilan today, one day earlier than paid for. > > I want to open it, clean it, etc., before attempting to power it on. > Anyone here worked one before? I gave all of my Gavilan stuff to Uncle Roger (several totes, including partial service manuals, some spare parts, etc.) Is yours 8 or 16 line display? 3" (earliest) or 3.5" drive? A Shugart #350 drive will fit and take the Gavilan faceplate if you want DS. GAVILAN MS-DOS 2.11K? or above will support PC style 720K format. Accessories include "bubble memory packs" to increase RAM, clip-on printer (thermal + ribbon) that can work with plain or thermal paper, clip-on 2nd 3.5" drive, external 5.25" drive (really just a special cable and ordinary SA400 interface drive) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 29 22:35:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:35:27 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4313D3FF.8090601@oldskool.org> Wolfe, Julian wrote: > 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, > while still leaving it an XT? IDE with "540MB" (actual capacity is less) drives or less, if you can find an IDE card that works. I have two (different brands) but sadly I haven't found time to try them yet in my model 5150. Only other solution is SCSI, something I have had extremely unlucky progress with (boards with BIOSes won't POST; boards that need drivers don't have the damn drivers bundled with the board; etc.) However, I believe my experience with 8-bit SCSI on XT is uncommon compared with the other gentlemen here. > 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with > some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. The V20 can enable some ill-behaved programs to work as it implements the "SHL register,immediate" 80186 opcode, and this opcode is sometimes the *only* used opcode used in "286-only" programs. I was able to run programs claiming they needed a 286 on my AT&T PC 6300 (Olivetti M24 8086 clone) after I upgraded it to an NEC V30. HOWEVER, the V20 and V30 expand the prefetch queue from 4 bytes to 6 bytes (the source of their speedup) and this screws with timing-sensitive programs such as games, copy-protected diskette copiers, and turnkey stuff like robot controllers, etc. from the early 1980s. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're expanding your convertable so that it can play most IBM PC games from the 1980s. :-) Based on my experience in that context, the V20 will cause the following behavior compared to a factory original 8088: - 88% of games will run just fine, unaffected by the V20 - 5% of games will run smoother/better due to the small speedup of the V20 - 5% of games will run too fast to be enjoyable - 2% of games will not run at all Games are a good example to flush out this kind of behavior because they were usually programmed as close to the hardware as possible to achieve the best performance; also, many copy-protection schemes are timing-based and may fail if the CPU speed is not what is expected. If I have incorrectly assumed your intentions, please let me know as I'm dying with curiousity :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 30 02:12:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <200508291620.j7TGKNZv063085@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508291620.j7TGKNZv063085@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050830001033.B27201@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Thanks to all who sent me this link: > http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_attache.asp ... I guess > the definition of "portable" varies quite a bit! Even the text of this ad > refers to it as a "desktop" computer. It's always relative... How about a portable computer that contained "hundred million bit disk file... each housed in a 2-1/2 ton utility truck" ... It's got wheels, you don't gotta even carry it. http://wps.com/projects/ARTOC/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 02:23:37 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:23:37 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <4313D3FF.8090601@oldskool.org> References: <4313D3FF.8090601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <84721AA5-65FE-4CF3-8C69-3944AEAFC6AC@earthlink.net> I'm maxing out the machine for the sake of maxing out the machine. The portable is a semi-rare beast; it's an XT in a wierd portable case. I actually bought it as a machine to diagnose car problems with via the DIACOM software, but I got rid of the car I was using it on! now it's an experimentation box. I already did the 640K mod to the mainboard, bought a 2MB EMS card, I have a 1.44MB floppy controller that works as long as only the MFM disk is in the system...it won't work with the IDE controller I have, OR the Seagate ST02. What do I have for software on it that I actually USE? PC-DOS 2000 Wordperfect 5.1 Lotus 1-2-3 2.1 Quicken 6.0 for DOS Windows 3.0 IBM PC Storyboard All the Watcom TCP/IP tools I can find Overland Data Tools for DOS (for backing the thing up to 9 track tape, HAHA) Oh...and I play a few games on it...yes. ;) I do testing for the MS-DOS Turbo C port of Sarien with it, to make sure it runs on 8088/8086. So to say the machine is "lightly used" would be totally wrong. I beat the silicon out of it. On Aug 29, 2005, at 10:35 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Wolfe, Julian wrote: > >> 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in >> an XT, >> while still leaving it an XT? >> > > IDE with "540MB" (actual capacity is less) drives or less, if you > can find an IDE card that works. I have two (different brands) but > sadly I haven't found time to try them yet in my model 5150. Only > other solution is SCSI, something I have had extremely unlucky > progress with (boards with BIOSes won't POST; boards that need > drivers don't have the damn drivers bundled with the board; etc.) > However, I believe my experience with 8-bit SCSI on XT is uncommon > compared with the other gentlemen here. > > >> 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility >> issues with >> some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. >> > > The V20 can enable some ill-behaved programs to work as it > implements the "SHL register,immediate" 80186 opcode, and this > opcode is sometimes the *only* used opcode used in "286-only" > programs. I was able to run programs claiming they needed a 286 on > my AT&T PC 6300 (Olivetti M24 8086 clone) after I upgraded it to an > NEC V30. > > HOWEVER, the V20 and V30 expand the prefetch queue from 4 bytes to > 6 bytes (the source of their speedup) and this screws with timing- > sensitive programs such as games, copy-protected diskette copiers, > and turnkey stuff like robot controllers, etc. from the early 1980s. > > I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're expanding your > convertable so that it can play most IBM PC games from the > 1980s. :-) Based on my experience in that context, the V20 will > cause the following behavior compared to a factory original 8088: > > - 88% of games will run just fine, unaffected by the V20 > - 5% of games will run smoother/better due to the small speedup of > the V20 > - 5% of games will run too fast to be enjoyable > - 2% of games will not run at all > > Games are a good example to flush out this kind of behavior because > they were usually programmed as close to the hardware as possible > to achieve the best performance; also, many copy-protection schemes > are timing-based and may fail if the CPU speed is not what is > expected. > > If I have incorrectly assumed your intentions, please let me know > as I'm dying with curiousity :-) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http:// > www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http:// > www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http:// > www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Tue Aug 30 02:51:39 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:51:39 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E4C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E4C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <4314100B.4070901@ais.fraunhofer.de> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Hi all, >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* >need the +12V. >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new developments", given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a +25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory boards. Holger From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 30 05:11:28 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:11:28 +0200 Subject: I'm tripping In-Reply-To: <17171.20133.694406.192849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43144CF0.14785.38E2C96C@localhost> Am 29 Aug 2005 14:06 meinte Paul Koning: >>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: > >>>> I didn't realize it was so disparaging. I meant more like gewgaw, >>>> knickknack, a nice toy that I don't need but is very nice. >>> Don't forget bric-a-brac and whatnot. >>> How many words are there in the English language to describe >>> quaint but useless crap and what does that say about our culture? > Kevin> Scrimshaw is probably a less generic term (i.e. nautical > Kevin> knickknancks), but still covers a lot of ground. > Not even close. Scrimshaw very specifically means engravings on > ivory, traditionally made by sailors on sailing ships in their spare > time. It doesn't mean knickknacks or anything like it; it refers to > a category of art. Well, still I have it also read in a book to denote some gimcrack. Maybe, as so often, it might be of dual use by now. Like Kitsch did it the other way arround. Originaly invented in th 1870s in Munich to describe worthless art of simple sentimental expression, nowadays some people use it as a positive term... well, a weired world it is. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Aug 30 07:22:54 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:22:54 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E53@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >Hi all, > >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface > >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built > >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. > >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data > >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. > >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* > >need the +12V. > >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" > >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not > >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? > >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as > >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! > > > > thanks, > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > > Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is > also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley > (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new developments", > given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator > logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable > separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the > alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). > > Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the > floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of > the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a > +25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory > boards. > > Holger Thanks for the reply Holger. Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have totally none experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice, but I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have several 1793 here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US). The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153). I will look into the 2797 a bit more, but I guess I'll go with the 1793. I saw in the diagram of the 2797 that it has also 2 trimpots for the adjustment ... Not sure yet ... thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Aug 30 08:29:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:29:07 -0400 Subject: I'm tripping References: <17171.20133.694406.192849@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <43144CF0.14785.38E2C96C@localhost> Message-ID: <17172.24355.194815.690566@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Hans" == Hans Franke writes: Kevin> Scrimshaw is probably a less generic term (i.e. nautical Kevin> knickknancks), but still covers a lot of ground. >> Not even close. Scrimshaw very specifically means engravings on >> ivory, traditionally made by sailors on sailing ships in their >> spare time. It doesn't mean knickknacks or anything like it; it >> refers to a category of art. Hans> Well, still I have it also read in a book to denote some Hans> gimcrack. So the author was ignorant -- happens all too often. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 30 08:29:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:29:16 -0500 Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <20050830001033.B27201@fiche.wps.com> References: <200508291620.j7TGKNZv063085@keith.ezwind.net> <20050830001033.B27201@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830082550.056ba008@mail> At 02:12 AM 8/30/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >How about a portable computer that contained "hundred million bit >disk file... each housed in a 2-1/2 ton utility truck" ... >It's got wheels, you don't gotta even carry it. > >http://wps.com/projects/ARTOC/ Hmm, learned a new word - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronutronic from Fig. 17.11 on page 241. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 10:23:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:23:43 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <200508272140.OAA27031@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830102343.332f0746@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:40 PM 8/27/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Allison" >> >>> >>>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>> From: "Brian Knittel" >>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>Does anybody out there know for certain when the >>>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >>>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >>>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >>>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? >> >>The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with >>V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. >> >>>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >>>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >>>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >>>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >>>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >>>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. >> >>The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the >>CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks >>of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot >>rom. > >Hi > My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >Dwight > I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM . The 1702 is mapped into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel. Allison's description is dead on. Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM. MDS 800 You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson' here; . I used to have the exact quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead. Joe Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 10:30:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:30:08 Subject: Setting Y-E Data YD-380B FDD to 300RPM? In-Reply-To: <3a963fa14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830103008.11a70e78@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I can't help you with info on the YD-380 but I was able ot get a manual for an 8" drive directly from YE Data a few years ago. I had to kind of hound them to get it but I finally did. Have you tried contactly them directly? Joe At 01:30 AM 8/28/05 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > Does anyone happen to have a manual for the Y-E Data YD-380B 5.25" floppy >drive that explains how to set it to either run at 300RPM or enable the >speed control via pin 2? I'd like to set this thing up on a BBC Micro if at >all possible. > Also, if it can do double-stepping ("40 track read"), details on that would >be very handy. > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT >philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook >... Misspelled? Impossible. Error correcting modem! > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 10:59:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:59:40 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <200508291230.j7TCUSYG006571@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com > References: <200508290444.j7T4gpZV060458@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830105940.19e7313c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have "MCS-8 A Guide to PL/M Programming. Rev.1" and it's dated Sept. 1973. Since CPM was developed jointly with PL/M I'd say that it dates from the same time. Joe At 08:30 AM 8/29/05 -0400, Barry wrote: > >I can't say for sure if Gary was the first to use the term BIOS, but it was >being used by Gary in CP/M long before 1978 -- I'd say in late 1975, >probably, and definitely by 1976. A friend bought a copy of CP/M in 1975 (I >know it was 1975, because I was in Atlanta at the time with the friend (who >happens to be Dale Heatherington, a partner in the modem firm of DC Hayes, >for whom the "Heatherington patents" were named), and I moved from Atlanta >to Charlotte in late 1975). In 1976, Imsai was offering CP/M version 1.3 >with the dual-Calcomp disk system. All of the documentation for all of >these used the term BIOS, as did the source code for the BIOS' supplied with >CP/M on disk (for the Intel development system). The BIOS resided on disk, >as part of the system tracks, it was the last 7 sectors of the 2nd track >(track 1). > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 11:02:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:02:26 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830110226.11e75d06@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:28 PM 8/29/05 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone! > >I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA >card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. >Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk >controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X >IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize >some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up >correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, >are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also >the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I >purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk >size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove >the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk >drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. > >So my questions are: >1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, >while still leaving it an XT? >2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with >some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. I used a V20 in my old Sanyo and never had a compatiblity problem except that certain games ran faster and were difficult to control. FWIW. Joe Joe > >Regards, > >Julian > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 10:37:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:37:51 Subject: SRAM testers In-Reply-To: <005d01c5ab7a$8cb0bd40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830103751.11afd560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Rich, I have one and you're welcome to use it. I know it does 4164, 41256, SIMMs etc. I don't remember if it does 4116 and older types or not. What types are you trying to test? ALSO I have to tell you that these things aren't that reliable. I've seen them pass many RAMS that would consistantly fail when put into a computer. I also have a PC card based EPROM programmer/IC tester/memory tester made by AllMax but I haven't used it for testing memories and I also don't remember what types it tests. Both units are at the warehouse but I can pick them up the next time I'm up there. Joe At 10:45 PM 8/27/05 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > I would like to wade through my memory boards chip-by chip and find >out what's what. I spent the better part of the day swapping boards and >chips trying to make 3-4 solid 8k boards out of 6. > > Does anyone have a small SRAM tester for 16 and 18-pin SRAM/DRAMs >that I can borrow? I'll pay postage both ways. Please let me know. Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From trag at io.com Fri Aug 26 02:17:18 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:17:18 -0500 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale In-Reply-To: <200508260220.j7Q2KNgJ017820@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508260220.j7Q2KNgJ017820@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:18:14 +0100 >From: Philip Pemberton >Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator... Is there any reason not to just track down some WD92C32 or WD92C16? I think SMSC (FDC prefix) sold some similar chips too. The only problem is, I've been looking for WD92C32s for a few years and there seem to be plenty of them in the hands of the folks who *always* come up on Google searches of electronic part numbers and they all seem to want >$3.50 each and a hundred dollar minimum or more. Sigh. When you're trying to build something that might be worth $15, it's hard to spend $3.50 on one component. I did see a nice lot of WD92C16s on Ebay a year or two ago. I think that will work as long as you need to read 1.44MB floppies. But I haven't seen any more of them since then. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 11:06:59 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: early 19" + NEC Multisync or equivalent Message-ID: <20050826160659.15292.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Needs to scan down to tv freqs (15.75khz) or close. Would consider an early large EGA monitor also, if any were made. BNC connections is ok. VGA is largely ruled out because I'm looking to use it with digital outputs. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trag at io.com Fri Aug 26 10:41:38 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:41:38 -0500 Subject: Floppy Data Separator Message-ID: I put some information I've accumulated up on my web space. It's at and look for the folder labeled "Floppy_Circuits". It's uploading at this moment (11am CDT) so it may be an hour or two from now before it's all up there. There are data sheets for the WD37C65C, WD37C65+ and WD92C32 in PDF. I also uploaded a scan of the National Semiconductor DP8473 datasheet as a series of JPEGs. If someone has that one as a PDF I'd love to get it in that more convenient format. The most interesting bit is the "Floppy Disk Data Separator Design Guide". This was included in the sales/information packet for the DP8473. It's 28 pages of information on how to design a data separator. Again, this is a collection of JPEGs. It's a little inconvenient to read on screen because I scanned it at 150dpi (so a 100% image is quite large) but when I tried 72 dpi it was too hard to read. The characters were chunky/incomplete at 72 dpi. The print in the actual booklet is rather small. 150 dpi was the lowest resolution that led to readable characters without eyestrain. I've accumulated this stuff because I would like to clone the external floppy drive for the Outbound Model 125 Laptop, but I'm not actively working on this project yet, so don't have any questions for the list at this time (unless someone knows an affordable source (~$.50 ea.) of WD92C32s). I hope this information is helpful. Jeff Walther From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Aug 26 12:14:02 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:14:02 -0500 Subject: Found old NCR computer...need info/keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It has what looks like a standard pc keyboard connector (AT style?)? I just wasn't sure if a standard pc type keyboard would work on it. -Bob >On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, Bob Brown wrote: > >> I found what I believe to be an NCR Decision Mate V computer. 1 5.25 >> floppy drive and 1 hard drive. >> >> no docs, no keyboard, no disks. >> >> Does anyone have info on this computer and any idea how to get a >> keyboard for it? > >I've got one. It's a PC clone that runs DOS (and a versiopn of CP/M-86 as >well). Does it have a standard PC-XT keyboard connector? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From lcourtney at mvista.com Fri Aug 26 13:02:16 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:02:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 7090 Music In-Reply-To: <20050826170506.5E95B97C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Hi all, KFOG here in the SF Bay Area has a show called 10 at 10 where they play 10 songs from a past year with historical tidbits between songs. Today's show from 1968 included a clip from the Bob Newkirk(sp?) show of an IBM 7090 playing music and singing. It will be replayed tonight at 10PM Pacific and can be heard via KFOG's web site www.kfog.com. The previous weeks shows are also replayed Saturday morning starting at 7AM pacific. The particular clip is about 17 minutes into the show. Enjoy! Lee C. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Aug 27 06:12:36 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:12:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Outlook 2000 woes & this list In-Reply-To: <20050826195415.0dc2be84.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0ILS007PVBS5DGO7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <430F0774.7322.244B5E35@localhost> <20050826195415.0dc2be84.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050827071203.033c16c8@boff-net.dhs.org> See: http://claws.sylpheed.org/win32/ WIN32 port of Sylpheed. Has been in progress some time. -John Boffemmyer IV At 08:54 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: >On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:13:40 +0200 >"Hans Franke" wrote: > > > Am 25 Aug 2005 21:31 meinte Jules Richardson: > > > > >If I double-click on a list message to open in its own window, > > > > >then I get something different yet again - in the From: field > > > > >something like:"cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; on behalf of; > > > > >Jules Richardson[julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk]" > > > > > > Real simple go into your address book and find the > > > > "cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org" > > > > entry and delete it. Somehow you associated that with a CCTALK. > > > > > If I'd had more setup time before I left the UK the laptop wouldn't > > > be running Windows even :) > > > > > Thunderbird time I suppose... > > > > Well, Thunderbird isn't bad, but way to much of an Outlook > > rip off. Including lots of unnecersary or disturbing things. > > And most of all, the bird is quite fat. you'll need some 50+ > > MB on your drive just for installation and quite some RAM to > > run it. Not what I'd recommend for a laptop - Except you'll > > you'll have the dough for the latest hardware gadget. > > > > Gruss > > H. > > -- > > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > >For a PC email reader, I would strongly suggest Eudora. It's not that >big, and it's pretty efficient. It has filter settings so you can sort >your CCTALK mail automatically into it's own folder. > >It's by no means as good as Sylpheed, the mail client I use for this >list. Sylpheed has the powerful ability to view messages in threads. >Which makes for a MUCH nicer list-reading experience. But Sylpheed is >freenix only, I run it on a NetBSD system. And it's X11 so you can't >run it in a terminal shell. > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 21:46:12 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: <20050828024612.34329.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> and you hot swapped puters? Pardon the dopey question. And shouldnt peecee drives work with either? I know they will with a mod 3/4. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > I have a Tandy CoCo that had been used with 2 floppy drives. > > > > Can I just unplug the drives and use them with a Model I, III, or IV ?? > > I certainly used a CoCo floppy drive unit (the FD501 one I think) on my > Model 3 for a time, so it should work on the Model 4 too (same disk > controller). And I see no good reason why it wouldn't work on a model 1. > > I even used one of those cheap mechanical printer swtichboxes (with 36 > pin Blue Ribbon connectors) to switch the drives between the CoCo and the > Model 3. Made up a couple of cables with edge connectors on one end, Blue > Ribbon on the other, and crimped a Blue Ribbon plug onto the cable coming > out of the drive box. Looking at the mess of wiring inside the switchbox > told me it shouldn't work (noise everywhere!), but amazingly I had no > problems... > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From korpela at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 13:16:15 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:16:15 -0700 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Just do a search on Google or eBay > for "SCA SCSI" (loose the quotes). > > > How much should I expect to pay? > > Depends on where you get the drive, and how big. I typically get > used ones for free. A new one will run you anywhere from $200 on up. If you look on pricewatch you can find new 9GB SCA drives for $15. They only get expensive if you are looking for 72GB or 144GB drives. Eric From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Mon Aug 29 20:19:35 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 20:19:35 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? Message-ID: <200508300129.j7U1TVfs068943@keith.ezwind.net> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 Gil From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Aug 29 21:13:33 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:13:33 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0FCB1FFF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi everyone! I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. So my questions are: 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, while still leaving it an XT? 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. Regards, Julian From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Mon Aug 29 21:24:10 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:24:10 -0500 Subject: More unknown stuff Message-ID: <200508300234.j7U2Y5gr069429@keith.ezwind.net> I had previously asked about a disk platter I was trying to identify. I have a couple of more pictures of it as well as some items from another drive. The latter is stamped "INFOMAG". By doing some www research I thought I had identified one or more of the principals in the company but got no reply to my emails. This is apparently a shortened version of Information Magnetics Corp. According to "Corporate Affiliations", that name was later changed to Computer & Communication Technology Corp. That name was later changed to Sunward Technologies, Inc. That company was later merged with Read-Rite Corporation. No other part numbers or IDs. If you recognize it I would appreciate the identification. Here's our web page with the pictures of the unknown items: http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html TIA, Gil From lcourtney at mvista.com Tue Aug 30 11:48:19 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:48:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 7090 Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, originally posted last week so this show is long gone. Thought the post would make the list faster than it did (4 days lag). Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lee Courtney > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:02 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: dpitts at cozx.com; Norm Aleks; Paul Pierce; jharper at frobenius.com; > Dave Babcock; Billy Pettit; Brian Knittel; Chris Garcia; Bill Selmeier; > Dag Spicer > Subject: IBM 7090 Music > > > Hi all, > > KFOG here in the SF Bay Area has a show called 10 at 10 where they play 10 > songs from a past year with historical tidbits between songs. Today's show > from 1968 included a clip from the Bob Newkirk(sp?) show of an IBM 7090 > playing music and singing. > > It will be replayed tonight at 10PM Pacific and can be heard via > KFOG's web > site www.kfog.com. The previous weeks shows are also replayed Saturday > morning starting at 7AM pacific. The particular clip is about 17 minutes > into the show. > > Enjoy! > > Lee C. > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 30 11:48:07 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:48:07 -0500 Subject: NeXT cube to give away? In-Reply-To: <200508292238.j7TMcc3a070565@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508292238.j7TMcc3a070565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Rob wrote: >FWIW, the reply-to is ROT13'd, an elderly way of hiding text on usenet, and >translates to "bevakupf at sbcglobal.net (rot13)" the same email address as >quoted in the body of the email. Thanks... busy day. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 30 12:10:59 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:10:59 -0400 Subject: WD 1793 FDCs for sale Message-ID: <0IM1008OCP0B2S11@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WD 1793 FDCs for sale > From: Jeff Walther > Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:17:18 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:18:14 +0100 >>From: Philip Pemberton > >>Speaking of the 765s, I still need to build an MFM data separator... > >Is there any reason not to just track down some WD92C32 or WD92C16? >I think SMSC (FDC prefix) sold some similar chips too. The construction of a dtat sep is fairly easy and there was a design on the net someone else posted thats right from the Apnotes. It's a 7474/74174/and 32x8 fuse rom(needs to be faster than 50NS) >I did see a nice lot of WD92C16s on Ebay a year or two ago. I think >that will work as long as you need to read 1.44MB floppies. But I >haven't seen any more of them since then. The 9216 is a versatile data sep. It will do ALL data rates. All you have to do is provide the correct clock for the rate(s). Another though scarce is the 9229, thats the 9216+ write precomp hardware. It also works for all rates. The 9239 is an enhanced version. SMSc chips in oder by appearance: Data seps 9216, 9236 Data sep and clock generator (with srite precomp logic) 9229, 9238, 9239, 9249 Those with "C" in the middle are Cmos version of the Nmos/Hmos originals. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 30 12:14:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508301714.KAA29690@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 02:40 PM 8/27/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>From: "Allison" >>> >>>> >>>>Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>>> From: "Brian Knittel" >>>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:58:01 -0700 >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> >>>>Hi all, >>>> >>>>Does anybody out there know for certain when the >>>>term BIOS was coined? I believe it was Gary Kildall, >>>>and from what I can find, it was around 1978 that >>>>he abstracted the I/O and localized it in what >>>>he called the BIOS. Anyone know differently? >>> >>>The term BIOS is older, early '77. It came into use with >>>V1.3 I think and for cetertain in V1.4. >>> >>>>Also -- was the BIOS stored on the CP/M >>>>floppy, or was it in ROM/EPROM? If not, how >>>>did CP/M machines boot? Was there a dedicated >>>>boot ROM that was used just for startup, and >>>>then the BIOS took over? I had one back in >>>>the day, but I sure can't remember this detail. >>> >>>The easy answer is yes. Tranditional CP/M systems the >>>CCP/BDOS and BIOS were on the first two reserved tracks >>>of the floppy (8" SSSD) and those were loaded by a boot >>>rom. >> >>Hi >> My understanding was that the first ones had no ROM >>and used a DMA controller that loaded bootstrapping >>code from the first sector on reset. I have such a >>controller on my machine. All RAM, no ROMs. >>Dwight >> > > I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel >MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used >a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 >with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM Hi Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a MDS-800. Dwight >. The 1702 is mapped >into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel. >Allison's description is dead on. Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS >and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table >is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM >as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM >but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG >Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel >MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based >MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM. > > MDS 800 > > You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson' >here; . I used to have the exact >quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead. > > Joe > > > Joe > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 30 12:31:31 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:31:31 -0700 Subject: More unknown stuff Message-ID: <431497F3.CAC16634@rain.org> I haven't heard that name in a *long* time. They were originally in Goleta California and IIRC moved somewhere down south in the 70's. What information are you after? A. G. Carrick wrote: > I had previously asked about a disk platter I was trying to identify. I have > a couple of more pictures of it as well as some items from another drive. > The latter is stamped "INFOMAG". By doing some www research I thought I had From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 30 12:47:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <200508301747.KAA29696@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> >> >Hi all, >> >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface >> >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built >> >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. >> >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data >> >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. >> >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* >> >need the +12V. >> >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" >> >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not >> >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? >> >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as >> >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! >> > >> > thanks, >> >- Henk, PA8PDP. >> > >> > >> Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is >> also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley >> (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new developments", >> given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator >> logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable >> separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the >> alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). >> >> Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the >> floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of >> the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a >> +25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory >> boards. >> >> Holger > >Thanks for the reply Holger. >Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer >is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have totally none >experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice, but >I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have several 1793 >here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship >it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US). >The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with >a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153). >I will look into the 2797 a bit more, but I guess I'll go with the 1793. >I saw in the diagram of the 2797 that it has also 2 trimpots for the >adjustment ... Not sure yet ... > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > Hi The 2791/93 are a more flexable choice than the 2795/97. >From my understanding of the spec sheet, the 2791/93 can do both 5.25 and 8 inch without changing external parts. The 2795/97 requires different clock frequencies to do this. You give up the side select but as was mentioned before, I suspect that one could double up the direction bit to also do side select or just have a port to do that. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 30 13:00:56 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:00:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: NeXT cube to give away? In-Reply-To: References: <200508292238.j7TMcc3a070565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1764.82.152.112.73.1125424856.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Rob wrote: >>FWIW, the reply-to is ROT13'd, an elderly way of hiding text on usenet, >> and >>translates to "bevakupf at sbcglobal.net (rot13)" the same email address as >>quoted in the body of the email. > > > > Thanks... busy day. we may be too late anyway, I mailed off as soon as I read your original and haven't had anything back. She may of course be busy :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 30 13:57:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:57:40 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0IM100GR9TY4QCG0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > -------snip----------> >> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel >>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used >>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 >>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM > >Hi > Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first >S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a >MDS-800. >Dwight No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels (ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88, Processor tech SOL and others. I have the history of being Altair owner SN00200 an early one with a full set of warts and germs. I was in the unenviable position by the end of January 1975 of having an assembled and debugged machine with 4k and NO software. Needless to say I was very heads up for software of any kind. >>. The 1702 is mapped >>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel. >>Allison's description is dead on. Should be with the hours spent using MDS800 and having one they are familiar. >>Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS >>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table >>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM >>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM >>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG >>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel >>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based >>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM. >> >> MDS 800 >> >> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson' >>here; . I used to have the exact >>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead. Good synopsis. Allison From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Aug 30 14:37:46 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:37:46 -0700 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <20050830031757.JQYR27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050830031757.JQYR27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <1125430666.3983.33.camel@aragorn> On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 23:25 +0000, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > The SCSI is best for this if stuck with 8088. Otherwise keep under > 500MB with IDE, not even 540, have to be under 500. Is the portable > standard XT or baby AT layout? Go with 286 or 386DX then everything > else will work as described. There are many 286 and 386 boards that > has XT mounting holes layouts. Choose carefully, there are so many > junk out there. Has anyone tried interfacing a CF card to 8-bit IDE? ATA IDE to CF cards exist, aside from the practical reason that very few people would buy such a thing, why not XT-IDE to CF adapter? I guess the BIOS would have to be added to such an adapter. CF cards are closer in size to what the old machines work with, and they are generally cheap. -- John. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 14:47:00 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:47:00 -0500 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <1125430666.3983.33.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: I actually have one of these adapters, but have yet to try it because I need a CF card. Maybe when I get some extra cash I'll try it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Hogerhuis Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: XTs and large hard disks On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 23:25 +0000, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > The SCSI is best for this if stuck with 8088. Otherwise keep under > 500MB with IDE, not even 540, have to be under 500. Is the portable > standard XT or baby AT layout? Go with 286 or 386DX then everything > else will work as described. There are many 286 and 386 boards that > has XT mounting holes layouts. Choose carefully, there are so many > junk out there. Has anyone tried interfacing a CF card to 8-bit IDE? ATA IDE to CF cards exist, aside from the practical reason that very few people would buy such a thing, why not XT-IDE to CF adapter? I guess the BIOS would have to be added to such an adapter. CF cards are closer in size to what the old machines work with, and they are generally cheap. -- John. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 30 16:29:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508302129.OAA29795@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >-------snip----------> > >>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel >>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used >>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 >>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM >> >>Hi >> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first >>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a >>MDS-800. >>Dwight > >No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels >(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form >of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88, >Processor tech SOL and others. Hi What does a front panel have to do with what I stated? I am familiar with the MDS800 having worked for Intel and written both assembly and PLM80 for it. I was also responsible for testing of the 1036 card ( the PLL used in the M2FM board set ). So, I do understand the disk I/O of the MDS800. I made no claim as to how a MDS800 works( please read previous mails ). As I corrected, I was not intending to make a claim about the first ever CP/M ( again please read previous mail in context ) but felt that from the context of the conversation that we were talking about S-100 machines. I tried to clarify this misconception that I was talking about the MDS800 in a previous mail ( again please read ), I was not talking about the MDS800. All I'm saying is that I was told that this particular DMA based interface was used for the first implementation on the S-100 of CP/M. This was told me by another fellow many years ago. I don't recall the fellows name but he seemed at the time to be honest enough since he had nothing to sell or gain by such a comment. He claimed to have some involvement in that process. If you don't like that you can just shoot me and be done with it but, please, don't put words in my mouth. Dwight > >I have the history of being Altair owner SN00200 an early one with a >full set of warts and germs. I was in the unenviable position by the end of >January 1975 of having an assembled and debugged machine with 4k and NO >software. Needless to say I was very heads up for software of any kind. > >>>. The 1702 is mapped >>>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel. >>>Allison's description is dead on. > >Should be with the hours spent using MDS800 and having one they are familiar. > >>>Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS >>>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table >>>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM >>>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM >>>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG >>>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel >>>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based >>>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM. >>> >>> MDS 800 >>> >>> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson' >>>here; . I used to have the exact >>>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead. > >Good synopsis. > >Allison > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 30 17:51:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:51:05 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed In-Reply-To: <200508302129.OAA29795@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050830175105.10ffc2b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:29 PM 8/30/05 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Allison" >> >>> >>>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >>> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT) >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>-------snip----------> >> >>>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel >>>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used >>>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 >>>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM >>> >>>Hi >>> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first >>>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a >>>MDS-800. >>>Dwight >> >>No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels >>(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form >>of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88, >>Processor tech SOL and others. > >Hi > What does a front panel have to do with what I stated? I think her point was that machines that didn't have any ROM in them had to have a front panel (in order to handload the boot code)* and that the later machines contained ROM so a front panel wasn't necessary. *This is how the first Altairs operated. FWIW Later you could buy an EPROM card for them that contained the exact same code in EPROM and boot from it. > I am familiar with the MDS800 having worked for >Intel and written both assembly and PLM80 for it. >I was also responsible for testing of the 1036 card >( the PLL used in the M2FM board set ). So, I do understand >the disk I/O of the MDS800. I made no claim as to >how a MDS800 works( please read previous mails ). >As I corrected, I was not intending to make a claim about >the first ever CP/M ( again please read previous mail in >context ) but felt that from the context of the conversation >that we were talking about S-100 machines. I tried to clarify >this misconception that I was talking about the MDS800 in >a previous mail ( again please read ), I was not talking about >the MDS800. > All I'm saying is that I was told that this particular >DMA based interface was used for the first implementation >on the S-100 of CP/M. You may be correct but that's not what the original poster asked and I think your response confused everyone. Joe This was told me by another fellow >many years ago. I don't recall the fellows name but he >seemed at the time to be honest enough since he had nothing >to sell or gain by such a comment. He claimed to have some >involvement in that process. If you don't like that you >can just shoot me and be done with it but, please, don't >put words in my mouth. >Dwight > >> >>I have the history of being Altair owner SN00200 an early one with a >>full set of warts and germs. I was in the unenviable position by the end of >>January 1975 of having an assembled and debugged machine with 4k and NO >>software. Needless to say I was very heads up for software of any kind. >> >>>>. The 1702 is mapped >>>>into and out of the memory space by the BOOT switch on the MDS front panel. >>>>Allison's description is dead on. >> >>Should be with the hours spent using MDS800 and having one they are familiar. >> >>>>Dave Mabry is the expert of the Intel MDS >>>>and he can provide more details about how they're booted and the BIOS table >>>>is loaded. FWIW Gary had a contract to write PL/M for Intel and wrote CPM >>>>as a file handling system for use in developing PL/M. He offered Intel CPM >>>>but they didn't want it since they were working on their own OS.(BIG >>>>Mistake!) Intel's OS was released as ISIS and was only used in the Intel >>>>MDS systems (although I've heard they did have a PC version for a PC based >>>>MDS). ISIS is very crude compared to CPM. >>>> >>>> MDS 800 >>>> >>>> You might also want to take a look at 'CP/M and a brief history lesson' >>>>here; . I used to have the exact >>>>quotes from Gary but unfortunately the link to them is now dead. >> >>Good synopsis. >> >>Allison >> >> > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 30 17:02:20 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:02:20 -0400 Subject: Anyone running a Calma setup? In-Reply-To: <200508252203.j7PM3rVx008648@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200508252203.j7PM3rVx008648@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4314D76C.9080009@atarimuseum.com> Anyone on the list running a Calma setup? Email me offlist please. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 30 17:13:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:13:23 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0IM200GQR309QC51@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >> >>> >>>Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed >>> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >>> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:14:15 -0700 (PDT) >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>-------snip----------> >> >>>> I don't think so. CPM was first written by Gary Kidall for the Intel >>>>MDS-800 (go read the CPM docs) and they NEVER had DMA capability. They used >>>>a 2k bit bootstrap loaded in a 1702 EPROM. Here is a picture of a MDS-800 >>>>with THE actual 1702 Boot EPROM >>> >>>Hi >>> Yes, what I meant to say was for the S-100. I was told that the first >>>S-100 implementation used this type of board. I knew Gary used a >>>MDS-800. >>>Dwight >> >>No. Most (if not all) of the first S100 system had front pannels >>(ALTAIR AND IMSAI Were the first!). The few that didn't had some form >>of rom monitor to simulate a fronpannel via TTY such as Poly-88, >>Processor tech SOL and others. > >Hi > What does a front panel have to do with what I stated? > I am familiar with the MDS800 having worked for >Intel and written both assembly and PLM80 for it. >I was also responsible for testing of the 1036 card >( the PLL used in the M2FM board set ). So, I do understand >the disk I/O of the MDS800. I made no claim as to >how a MDS800 works( please read previous mails ). >As I corrected, I was not intending to make a claim about >the first ever CP/M ( again please read previous mail in >context ) but felt that from the context of the conversation >that we were talking about S-100 machines. I tried to clarify >this misconception that I was talking about the MDS800 in >a previous mail ( again please read ), I was not talking about >the MDS800. Reminising old hardware. Even the MDS800 was second generation. > All I'm saying is that I was told that this particular >DMA based interface was used for the first implementation >on the S-100 of CP/M. This was told me by another fellow >many years ago. I don't recall the fellows name but he >seemed at the time to be honest enough since he had nothing >to sell or gain by such a comment. He claimed to have some >involvement in that process. If you don't like that you >can just shoot me and be done with it but, please, don't >put words in my mouth. >Dwight The first time I'd seen DMA hardware of any kind was 1977 (years after) and it was used for a calcomp platter (10mb removable) I was told the system cost 30K$ All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel (switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom. Most all used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the people doing it were running far lighter hardware than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system. Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8" then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot. Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process. It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*) that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm. Allison From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 30 17:56:01 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:56:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4314E401.1@bellsouth.net> >> How much should I expect to pay? www.hitechcafe.com has refurbished SCA SCSI drives as low as $49.00 with a warranty. (No, I'm not connected with these folks.) Glen 0/0 From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Aug 30 18:07:04 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modcomp Computer? In-Reply-To: <0IM200GQR309QC51@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IM200GQR309QC51@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <26692.207.71.246.177.1125443224.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com> I was at the Uni California - Santa Barbara surplus today and saw two 5-foot 19" rack cabinets with vintage-style switches on top, so of course I went straight to them. Each rack was very similar, having on top the usual vintage plastic rocker switches (some brown, some white) for memory, registers, a key for run / halt / etc. The color scheme was brown and white, titled "Modular Computer Systems", with a ModComp logo. The insides were odd - instead of the usual card cages, a lever let you pull out a sliding tray with (very rough est.) 15 x 15 inch cards that were mounted on an accordian style fold-out bracket, which I couldn't figure out how to fold out. They were interconnected with various flat cables. The outside most card was wire-wrapped, I couldn't see much of the other cards but I got the card names and part#s of all of them: 1 of Loop Controller, 551-100169-001 1 of MC II Plane I, 551-100140-001 1 of MC II Plane I, 551-100140-001 4 of 16K memory, 551-100069-001 Each rack was configured this way. One rack had a Johnson Controls JC80 paper tape reader sitting in the bottom of the rack. The other had a smaller card cage underneath the card assembly listed above, with 6 or so cards made by Inmac; I think a paper taped to the door referred to them, listing: description model TTY Controller 3753-2 HS Serial Line 4821-1 IO Bus Switch 5213 Anyone know what this is? If anyone wants it, it's located in Santa Barbara, California - email me and I can give you the contact info for the surplus department there (or google "surplus ucsb"). I'll try to get out there on thursday and take some pictures if anyone is interested. Jeff From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 30 18:33:55 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:33:55 -0700 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <4314E401.1@bellsouth.net> References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4314E401.1@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200508301633.55318.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 30 August 2005 15:56, Glen Goodwin wrote: > >> How much should I expect to pay? > > www.hitechcafe.com has refurbished SCA SCSI drives as low > as $49.00 with a warranty. > > (No, I'm not connected with these folks.) > > Glen > 0/0 Surplus Computers here in SV has NEW 36.4 GB SCA drives for $29.99 or less in quantities of 10. I've bought a lot of SCA drives from them - and had zero problems. http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=CATEGORYbody&c=HDIS One warning about SCA drives - look at specs to make sure that the drive will physically "fit" in the carrier... (I have no connection with "Surplus Computers" other than as a customer). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 18:57:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:57:46 -0500 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC In-Reply-To: <4314100B.4070901@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E4C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <4314100B.4070901@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <20050830185746.6af63f5d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:51:39 +0200 Holger Veit wrote: > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >Hi all, > >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface > >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built > >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. > >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data > >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. > >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* > >need the +12V. > >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" > >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not > >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? > >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as > >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! > > > > thanks, > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > > Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is also > > available from BG micro) from > www.swtpc.com/mholley (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate > for "new developments", > given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator > logic which always prevented me from > building FDC boards (a usable separator chip is more difficult to find > > than the FDC chip, and the alternatives > with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). > > Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the > floppy drive, so what prevents you from > feeding it into pin #40 of the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is > > not more ugly than a +25V source > on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory boards. > > Holger > And even if there's no 12 volts on the logic board itself, it's pretty easy to install one of those 'charge pump' type chips (I think Dallas Semiconductor is one source) that uses outboard capacitors to boost your 5v supply and give you the needed 12 volts. I just did a quick search using 'ICL7660' as the key and yes, Maxim still makes this beastie, which would serve your needs. Datasheet at: http://www.ee.washington.edu/stores/DataSheets/linear/icl7660.pdf Maxim's web page for it: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1017 Gawd, why do I have part numbers like '7660' taking up valuable wetware space?? From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 19:15:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:15:26 -0500 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050830191526.6e89bfaf.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:59 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Does anyone know what Opcode $02 is on a Motorola 6800 processor. It's > > not defined in the data sheet, but I have a device which forces that > instruction onto the data bus in one of the test modes. > > Is it, by any chance, the infamous HCF instruction? > > -tony > Hmm, all the other $0x opcodes on the table are inherent instructions that mess with the condition code register. Looking at the order of the bits in the instructions, I don't see an order that corresponds with good old HINZVC (we were required to memorize this, the order of the bits in the condition code register, in tech school) 0a clears overflow (V) 0b sets overflow (V) 0c clears carry (C) 0d sets carry (C) 0e clears interrupt mask (I) 0f sets interrupt mask (I) The lower instructions defined are 06 Accumulator A to CCR 07 CCR to Accumulator A Is there a bit-level 'Opcode Breakdown' reference for the 6800 processor, that defines bit field and gives clues to how the opcodes are translated in hardware, like there is (it's an elaborate table and I even have a machine language Textbook that drags you through it all on an early chapter) for the 8086 processor? The good old 6800. 'Freescale' : bah! From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Aug 30 19:22:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:22:30 -0500 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050830192230.41cb557e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:16:15 -0700 Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Just do a search on > > Google or eBay > > for "SCA SCSI" (loose the quotes). > > > > > How much should I expect to pay? > > > > Depends on where you get the drive, and how big. I typically get > > used ones for free. A new one will run you anywhere from $200 on > > up. > > If you look on pricewatch you can find new 9GB SCA drives for $15. > They only get expensive if you are looking for 72GB or 144GB drives. > > Eric > Oooh, now you have me wanting to cram my 'IBM PC Server 704' (a huge quad Pentium Pro server with a bunch of SCA slots on the front) *which is almost, if not already, nominally 'on-topic' here* full of cheap drives. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 18:16:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:16:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: <20050828024612.34329.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 27, 5 07:46:12 pm Message-ID: > > and you hot swapped puters? Pardon the dopey question. Not if I could help it :-) Although I am pretty sure I did flip the switch with things turned on at least once... The main reason I did this was that I had a 3" (no, I don't mean 3.5") drive in the CoCo disk box, and it was sometimes useful to connect it to the Model 3. > And shouldnt peecee drives work with either? I know > they will with a mod 3/4. Yes. The TRS80 M1/3/4 and CoCo drive interface is pretty standard. PC 360K and 720K drives should work find if you get the drive selects sorted out. I have certainly used as 3.5" 720K drive on the Model 3/4. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 18:26:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:26:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <20050830031757.JQYR27245.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Aug 29, 5 11:25:34 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi everyone! > > > > I have an old Portable PC that I put a 2MB memory card in, along with an EGA > > card, sound card, and some other stuff. I'm doing my best to max it out. > > Anyway, I'm having some trouble with hard disks. I have two hard disk > > controllers: a Seagate ST02 SCSI/Floppy controller, and a Juko Labs D16-X > > IDE controller. Now both of these cards work okay, except they recognize > > some strange sizes for the disks. The only disk that seems to show up > > correctly is a Quantum LP105S...the others I tried, all bigger than a gig, > > are either not recognized, or recognized with the wrong size. This is also > > the case with the IDE controller - everything is recognized at 10MB. I > > purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping to overcome the large disk > > size problem, but all it does is freeze the machine...however, if I remove > > the 8088 and replace it with a NEC V20, I get the banner for the hard disk > > drive card, and THEN the machine freezes. > > > > So my questions are: > > 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, > > while still leaving it an XT? > > 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues with > > some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. > > > > Regards, > > > > Julian > > This particlar can't handle this large due to decoding issues or > capacity issues (1GB is too large for 8088 than needed), either the > XT is a shoddy clone the TTL timings is not right if using a firmware > add on to handle large IDE capacities. Hang on a second, this is an XT. In fact I assume 'Portable PC' means the IBM 5155, which has a real IBM XT motherboard in there. The motherboard BIOS on an XT does not support hard disks at all. The hard disk drivers are in an extension ROM, conventionally placed on the hard disk controller card. So if a particualr card won't support large drives, it's an issue with the firmware on that card, not with the motherboard BIOS. > The SCSI is best for this if stuck with 8088. Otherwise keep under > 500MB with IDE, not even 540, have to be under 500. Is the portable > standard XT or baby AT layout? Go with 286 or 386DX then everything > else will work as described. There are many 286 and 386 boards that > has XT mounting holes layouts. Choose carefully, there are so many > junk out there. The problem with this is that the keyboard interface changed between the XT and AT. And you pretty much have to stick with the original XT keyboard on a 5155... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 30 19:35:50 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:35:50 -0700 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: <200508300129.j7U1TVfs068943@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4314FB66.98E0ECD@cs.ubc.ca> The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look like they may have just been stripped from complete units. (Look at the second photo: vac-col tape drive and controller in front of scrap heap. (3278 terminal on the lower left?)) http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-IBM-3420-Panel_W0QQitemZ5236558292QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-IBM-3803-Panel_W0QQitemZ5236560257QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem "A. G. Carrick" wrote: > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 > > Gil From tomj at wps.com Tue Aug 30 19:35:20 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Altair In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050830082550.056ba008@mail> References: <200508291620.j7TGKNZv063085@keith.ezwind.net> <20050830001033.B27201@fiche.wps.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050830082550.056ba008@mail> Message-ID: <20050830173455.X27201@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, John Foust wrote: > Hmm, learned a new word - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronutronic > from Fig. 17.11 on page 241. It would appear that Aeronutronic was designed to be a grant sink... From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Aug 30 19:52:57 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:52:57 -0500 Subject: Got four boxes of mags Message-ID: <00ef01c5adc6$55be6c80$35406b43@66067007> UPS dropped off the following yesterday and boy is it fun reading and looking at the pictures from long ago. Right I'm looking a Special issue of Popular Computing dated March 1983 with a picture of the Lisa I on the cover a and Part 1 of a large write-up of the Lisa. Creative Computing 1983: APR MAY AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC 1984: ALL 1985: ALL On Computing (Complete) 1979: SUM FAL WIN 1980: SPR SUM FAL WIN 1981: SPR SUM FAL Popular Computing (from premier issue) 1981: NOV DEC 1982: ALL 1983: ALL 1984: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN SCCS Interface 1975: DEC 1976: JAN MAR APR MAY JUN JUL DEC 1977: JAN FEB JUL AUG SEP Interface Age 1976: AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC 1977: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT 1978: OCT BYTE (from premier issue) 1975: SEP OCT NOV DEC 1976: ALL 1977: ALL 1978: ALL 1979: ALL 1980: ALL 1981: JAN FEB MAR APR From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 19:57:38 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:57:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <20050830192230.41cb557e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050830192230.41cb557e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43150082.4080602@gmail.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > Oooh, now you have me wanting to cram my 'IBM PC Server 704' (a huge > quad Pentium Pro server with a bunch of SCA slots on the front) *which > is almost, if not already, nominally 'on-topic' here* full of cheap > drives. Actually, I have *two* of these beasts, and the price of SCA 73.4GB hard drives on ebay have now come down enough, so I have 12 (!) 73.4GB hard drives in each, with hardware RAID. They both run NetBSD very, very, very fast. Four processors each, 1GB RAM each. Each has a 2-channel RAID card with each channel running half the array. The on-board SCSI controller runs the boot disk on one channel, and the CD-ROM on the other. Peace... Sridhar From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Aug 30 20:04:53 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <200508310104.SAA00020@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" ---snip--- > >All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel >(switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom. Hi Allison Yes, eproms were expensive. > Most all >used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming >the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the >people doing it were running far lighter hardware >than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were >using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to >CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a >lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system. I did this also to get my first level of bootstrap running and saved to the disk. I'll admit that I did take advantage of having a PC laptop to use as large external data storage to minimize the amount of toggling. Still, I made a formatting program, first level bootstrap and BIOS through the front panel with the serial input. I used no monitor program, just a simple serial-input-to-memory program that I toggled in. I can imagine how much more effort there would have been without the external mass storage. Even a minimum of toggling and paper tape would be quite painful. >Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8" >then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor >program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot. >Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer >that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was >migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software >to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the >NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a >first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually >boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process. You always wonder if the program you just toggled in is going the wipe out all the work you previously entered. Or worse, wipe out a CP/M distribution disk. > >It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*) >that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm. As you state, normal turnkey used boot ROMs/EPROMs. One might consider my setup to be turnkey but it isn't a normal turnkey. There is no boot ROM/EPROM. It just uses the normal reset of the controller without main CPU interaction. It is not fully automatic since I do need to hit the reset and wait for the disk to complete before enabling the computer to go. Almost full turnkey. Dwight > > >Allison > > PS As Joe mentioned, I did go off subject and should have started another thread. For that I apologize. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 20:10:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:10:13 -0500 Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: <43150082.4080602@gmail.com> References: <200508241117.j7OBHVan093565@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050830192230.41cb557e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43150082.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/30/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Actually, I have *two* of these beasts, and the price of SCA 73.4GB hard > drives on ebay have now come down enough, so I have 12 (!) 73.4GB hard > drives in each, with hardware RAID. Wahoo! My largest drives are half that. Maybe on my next upgrade cycle. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 30 20:24:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <4314FB66.98E0ECD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look like they may have > just been stripped from complete units. > (Look at the second photo: vac-col tape drive and controller in front of scrap > heap. (3278 terminal on the lower left?)) 3803s and 3420s are not all that rare in the states (although I have never seen a red one). They will be, given a few years. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 30 20:37:08 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Help! Sun Ultra 1 HD replacement? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 30, 2005 08:10:13 PM Message-ID: <200508310137.j7V1b8tD024687@onyx.spiritone.com> > On 8/30/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Actually, I have *two* of these beasts, and the price of SCA 73.4GB hard > > drives on ebay have now come down enough, so I have 12 (!) 73.4GB hard > > drives in each, with hardware RAID. > > Wahoo! My largest drives are half that. Maybe on my next upgrade cycle. > > -ethan > My VMS server is currently running with 6 18GB drives, 4 of which are volume shadowed. In my next disk upgrade I'm hoping to move to either 36GB or 50GB drives. Zane From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Aug 30 20:45:00 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:00 -0400 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 In-Reply-To: <20050830191526.6e89bfaf.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050830191526.6e89bfaf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43150B9C.90105@jcwren.com> I'd suggest finding a VHDL or Verilog implementation, and see if that provides any insight. Also, Google for '6800 undocumented opcodes' (no quotes). There are a number of hits. Most seem to indicate that the undocumented opcode (no value given) causes the processor to go into a mode where there are no instruction fetchs, but the address bus runs incrementing bus cycles. --jc Scott Stevens wrote: >On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:59 +0100 (BST) >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > >>Does anyone know what Opcode $02 is on a Motorola 6800 processor. It's >> >>not defined in the data sheet, but I have a device which forces that >>instruction onto the data bus in one of the test modes. >> >>Is it, by any chance, the infamous HCF instruction? >> >>-tony >> >> >> >Hmm, all the other $0x opcodes on the table are inherent instructions >that mess with the condition code register. Looking at the order of the >bits in the instructions, I don't see an order that corresponds with >good old HINZVC (we were required to memorize this, the order of the >bits in the condition code register, in tech school) > >0a clears overflow (V) >0b sets overflow (V) >0c clears carry (C) >0d sets carry (C) >0e clears interrupt mask (I) >0f sets interrupt mask (I) > >The lower instructions defined are >06 Accumulator A to CCR >07 CCR to Accumulator A > > >Is there a bit-level 'Opcode Breakdown' reference for the 6800 >processor, that defines bit field and gives clues to how the opcodes are >translated in hardware, like there is (it's an elaborate table and I >even have a machine language Textbook that drags you through it all on >an early chapter) for the 8086 processor? > >The good old 6800. 'Freescale' : bah! > > > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Aug 30 20:54:38 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:54:38 -0400 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 In-Reply-To: <20050830191526.6e89bfaf.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050830191526.6e89bfaf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43150DDE.5090304@splab.cas.neu.edu> I pulled this off of the web by googling. no way to verify it. this was the website, for credit's sake http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.folklore.computers/19971216_HCF ... It was the 6800 that had such an instruction. It was a variant of the 'JMP' (jump) instruction that "jumped to the accumulator". The opcodes are 0x4E and 0x5E (for the A and B registers respectively). While not used in "normal" operations, they are convient for bringing up new designs. One could wire the data buss to either of the codes, and reset the processor. Upon reset, the processor reads out locations 0xFFFE and 0xFFFF for the location of the first instruction to execute (it gets 0x4E 0x4E), then it sets the address buss to that location and reads an instruction from there, getting 0x4E. This causes the address buss to increment and cycle thru, reading every location on the buss. With a scope, properly attached, quite helpful. Shows up decodes and the like for the various I/O, RAM, ROM devices. Might even show up conflicts, or a mal formed decode PAL. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 30 21:23:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:23:01 -0400 Subject: Bit of CP/M trivia needed Message-ID: <0IM2009OCEK96RA3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Bit of CP/M trivia needed > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:04:53 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >---snip--- >> >>All the S100 machine of early origin were front pannel >>(switches and lights) and few had rom/eprom. > >Hi Allison > Yes, eproms were expensive. Ah just to set a point. I still have the first 32byte fuseprom and 1702 I'd ever bought. It's very painful for me to know how much I paid for them. So for a fact I do know they were expensive and also tough to get because as both an engineer and hobbiest I was there buying them. >> Most all >>used hardware IO and a hand toggled in boot (assuming >>the controller didn't have a bootrom). Most of the >>people doing it were running far lighter hardware >>than you have there. Most of the heavey geeks were >>using stuff like PT ALS8 systems to bootstrap to >>CP/M for the first time. Me I plodded through a >>lot of hand toggling plus my tape based system. > > I did this also to get my first level of bootstrap >running and saved to the disk. I'll admit that I did >take advantage of having a PC laptop to use as >large external data storage to minimize the amount >of toggling. Still, I made a formatting program, >first level bootstrap and BIOS through the front panel >with the serial input. I used no monitor program, >just a simple serial-input-to-memory program that I >toggled in. > I can imagine how much more effort there would have >been without the external mass storage. Even a minimum >of toggling and paper tape would be quite painful. That not even the first level guess. It was harder because there was little experience out there to draw from and if you had a disk early on likely you were one of the few. So there was a lot of by the seat of the pants and sweat to make things work. I'm talking prior to 1977 as that summer a lot more system with matching disks started to appear (NS* was one) and the market was ready. >>Even then it was load the available image on SSSD 8" >>then overlay the drivers by hand (switches or monitor >>program) then save it to whatever before a trial boot. >>Early on there were very few disk systems and fewer >>that were plug and go for CP/M. Usual case was >>migrating from available hardware and non-CP/M software >>to CP/M. Did that for both 8" and NS* 5.25 and also the >>NEC PDA-80 I had. To this day I cringe when I do a >>first boot even thugh I have moden tools and usually >>boot from EPROM instead. Such is memory of the process. > > You always wonder if the program you just toggled in >is going the wipe out all the work you previously >entered. Or worse, wipe out a CP/M distribution disk. !$%^&, Now I"m going to have them nightmares again. Really, it happened too often. The day I put in the NS* controller toggled E900h (ok it was 351,000 split octal) into the Altair front pannel hit loadaddr then run was like I could hear a chorus. Boots thereafter were almost reliable. Once the NS* chassis arrived the Altair was retired and reliability was established. >> >>It wasn't until around late '77 (same time I got my NS*) >>that I started seeing turnkey machines as the norm. > > As you state, normal turnkey used boot ROMs/EPROMs. One >might consider my setup to be turnkey but it isn't a >normal turnkey. There is no boot ROM/EPROM. It just uses >the normal reset of the controller without main CPU >interaction. It is not fully automatic since I do need >to hit the reset and wait for the disk to complete before >enabling the computer to go. Almost full turnkey. >Dwight ==An aside from the questio to set background============= Two address history you have to understand the enviroment as many experienced it. Cheap computers then was any machine under 5000$. Back then $5000 was a good down payment on a house in the northeast. The significance is that your hardware was not typical nor commonly seen. Most of the people didn't have that kind of money and likely before early '77 it didn't exist. More typical was a PT SOL/W NS* or NS*, SWTP 6800 systems and a few maybe of the Altair or Imsai style plus a few bare bones scratch builts. I attended more than a few LICA (Long Island [NY] Computer Assoc) meetings where the common machine was an ELF more maybe an AMD EVK68 (6800 SBC), Moto 6800D1 or National SC/MP. I was somewhat of an oddity as I had by then Altair, SC/MP, ELF and even a Technico Super Starter board (TI9900) by time the TRS80 was just appearing. In the whole association I think there were maybe 8 of maybe 100+ that even had a working disk. Just so you have an idea. If you had a disk in early 1977 and ran CP/M likely your outlay in Dollar$ was in the range of 4500-6000+(US$) into it and that didn't include a terminal or TTY (add ~1000$). Around then a new Chevy C20 4wd truck was 3800$ for comparison. To run CP/M 1.3 or 1.4 you needed a minimum of 16k of ram, a disk with controller, IO board, terminal and an 8080. In 1976 summer: Some of the 1977 list items were unotainium. Those items that could be bought were roughly 2x the 1977 price. IE 16K of ram was $1000. 1977 summer cost: Barebones Altair or Imsai ($395 kit) SA400 (not the 400L) $399 new 8K ram board seals/PT/IMS $259(kit) Floppy controller ($699[kit] with 1st drive NS*) ICOM FDC and disk(sa400) $1095 Z80 CPU (NS* $199) Serial IO card 159$ Tarbel cassette interface $120(kit) TTY used $800-900, VDM-1 199(kit) Printer (see tty) In 1978 that stuff would be around half the price. In late 1978 I took a Data structures in pascal course in college at night. Of the professors 200+ students I was one of 6 that owned a computer (not a pocket calc) of some sort and one of two that had a disk and could run UCSD pascal. Back then a personal computer was _any_ hardware that was owned personally. ======================================================== Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 30 21:26:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:26:49 -0400 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 Message-ID: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> The 6800 indeed had HCF and while I forget the opcode (not a regular 6800 user) it was real. Basically if the opcode was encountered the chip executed bus cycles and did nothing else till reset. Story then was it enabled some level of factory testing of the die for the is it even alive test. Allison > >Subject: Re: 6800 opcode $02 > From: "J.C. Wren" > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:00 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > I'd suggest finding a VHDL or Verilog implementation, and see if >that provides any insight. Also, Google for '6800 undocumented opcodes' >(no quotes). There are a number of hits. Most seem to indicate that >the undocumented opcode (no value given) causes the processor to go into >a mode where there are no instruction fetchs, but the address bus runs >incrementing bus cycles. > > --jc > >Scott Stevens wrote: > >>On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:59 +0100 (BST) >>ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> >> >>>Does anyone know what Opcode $02 is on a Motorola 6800 processor. It's >>> >>>not defined in the data sheet, but I have a device which forces that >>>instruction onto the data bus in one of the test modes. >>> >>>Is it, by any chance, the infamous HCF instruction? >>> >>>-tony >>> >>> >>> >>Hmm, all the other $0x opcodes on the table are inherent instructions >>that mess with the condition code register. Looking at the order of the >>bits in the instructions, I don't see an order that corresponds with >>good old HINZVC (we were required to memorize this, the order of the >>bits in the condition code register, in tech school) >> >>0a clears overflow (V) >>0b sets overflow (V) >>0c clears carry (C) >>0d sets carry (C) >>0e clears interrupt mask (I) >>0f sets interrupt mask (I) >> >>The lower instructions defined are >>06 Accumulator A to CCR >>07 CCR to Accumulator A >> >> >>Is there a bit-level 'Opcode Breakdown' reference for the 6800 >>processor, that defines bit field and gives clues to how the opcodes are >>translated in hardware, like there is (it's an elaborate table and I >>even have a machine language Textbook that drags you through it all on >>an early chapter) for the 8086 processor? >> >>The good old 6800. 'Freescale' : bah! >> >> >> From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Aug 30 21:29:49 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free VAX PDP-11 Message-ID: OK, now that I have your attention, an odd question... How often do we reckon that a freebie big machine (PDP-11, VAX, Eclipse, and so on - NOT micros) gets posted (or crossposted) to this list? Once a week on average? I suppose I could scan the archives and do all sorts of studies, but that sounds like WAY TOO MUCH WORK to settle my curiosity. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 30 21:45:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:42 -0500 Subject: Free VAX PDP-11 References: Message-ID: <00c701c5add6$151a5120$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> William wrote > How often do we reckon that a freebie big machine (PDP-11, VAX, Eclipse, > and so on - NOT micros) gets posted (or crossposted) to this list? Once a > week on average? I would guesstimate that I get somewhere between 6 and 10 "here take this old mini" emails from outside this list that I post here for others to take - per year. Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 30 22:37:29 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:37:29 -0400 Subject: .DAI ? In-Reply-To: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> Anyone here familiar with a .DAI extension chip layout or Schematic file and what app is used? Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 30 22:55:48 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:55:48 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One files? Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005 From spedraja at ono.com Wed Aug 31 01:53:11 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:53:11 +0200 Subject: New items to search for In-Reply-To: <00c701c5add6$151a5120$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42B9984900022B4C@resmta03.ono.com> Hello everybody. I've arranged finally my basement, including all the computer equipment, manuals and magazines collected from all these past years. Well, arranged in a first stage, because now I must do some other additional works, like installation of tables, more electrical cabling, etc... and some cleaning of computer stuff too :-) I should like to locate and/or purchase for the next months these items if appear in some moment. I prefer to do the transaction in UK/Europe, by the way. * One Teletype ASR (33, 43) with paper tape reader/puncher. * One PDP8/E (or similar) and/or PDP8/A * One Decwriter * One HP1000 I should like to locate too one Cromemco, Zenith/Heath, Compupro, or similar system, but I see this complicated. Regards Sergio From technobug at comcast.net Wed Aug 31 02:24:26 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:24:26 -0700 Subject: Modcomp Computer? In-Reply-To: <200508310114.j7V1EDrI083277@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508310114.j7V1EDrI083277@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <29F85034-CAAD-4866-9A8E-D7E7D40098C0@comcast.net> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:07:04 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Davis" wrote: [...] > The color scheme was brown and white, titled "Modular Computer > Systems", with a ModComp logo. What you found was a Modcomp II, a 16-bitter with 64 kwords of memory. The machine was modeled (ala SEL) on the IBM 1800 series controllers and were used primarily in communications and process control. There were produced in the 1974-78 period, or thereabouts. The design was interesting in that it used microcode which could be extended through a microword bus. Consequently, unused instructions were used for floating point, communications controllers, etc. OS was multi-tasked, priortized, and fully pre-emptive. The file system was ala IBM: you allocated your files at sysgen time. They were quick machines for the time. > The insides were odd - instead of the usual card cages, a lever let > you pull > out a sliding tray with (very rough est.) 15 x 15 inch cards that > were mounted > on an accordian style fold-out bracket, which I couldn't figure out > how to > fold out. There is a knob on top of each plane which when pulled up allows the plane to swing open. By far the easiest computer to work on I've run across... > They were interconnected with various flat cables. The outside > most card was wire-wrapped, I couldn't see much of the other cards > but I got > the card names and part#s of all of them: > > 1 of Loop Controller, 551-100169-001 > 1 of MC II Plane I, 551-100140-001 > 1 of MC II Plane I, 551-100140-001 > 4 of 16K memory, 551-100069-001 IIRC all the planes, with the exception of the memory were wire- wrapped and all ICs are socketed. What makes these planes unique is that the power regulation is at the top on each plane. Raw DC is provided from some honkin' supplies located at the back of the drawer. The original IIs were implemented in 74Hxx (read very hot, but not too fast) and consequently there are IIRC 9 fans on the bottom of the drawer. Generally, I/O was housed in plain boxes beneith/along side the computer, but constructed with the same planes as the main computer. However, these planes were oriented horizontally. I ran one in an experiment during the period 1975-78. It was mounted in a trailer which traveled over 10k miles over the period of the experiment - damn reliable beast. > Anyone know what this is? If anyone wants it, it's located in > Santa Barbara, > California - email me and I can give you the contact info for the > surplus > department there (or google "surplus ucsb"). I'll try to get out > there on > thursday and take some pictures if anyone is interested. > > Jeff I would love to see some pictures :-)) CRC From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Wed Aug 31 02:48:30 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modcomp Computer? In-Reply-To: <29F85034-CAAD-4866-9A8E-D7E7D40098C0@comcast.net> References: <200508310114.j7V1EDrI083277@dewey.classiccmp.org> <29F85034-CAAD-4866-9A8E-D7E7D40098C0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1211.70.185.179.173.1125474510.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> On Wed, August 31, 2005 12:24 am, CRC wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:07:04 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Davis" > wrote: > > [...] >> The color scheme was brown and white, titled "Modular Computer >> Systems", with a ModComp logo. > > What you found was a Modcomp II, a 16-bitter with 64 kwords of > memory. > [...] > There is a knob on top of each plane which when pulled up allows the > plane to swing open. > [...] > What makes these planes unique is > that the power regulation is at the top on each plane. Raw DC is > provided from some honkin' supplies located at the back of the > drawer. Yep, that matches exactly what I saw, including the fans underneath the cards to keep them cool. Now that I know how to open the card cage (planes), I'll do a full set of digital photos on Thursday. A list member in the region is already arranging a rescue, so it looks like these two will be saved from the scrap heap. Jeff From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Aug 31 08:42:20 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:42:20 -0400 Subject: On Ebay: Sbus to VME Adapter Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C13@cpexchange.olf.com> I have one of these on my Ultra 2 and they are actually pretty neat. Bought one from the same guy on ebay too.. http://cgi.ebay.com/SBS915-SBus-to-VME-Adapter-Kit-NIB_W0QQitemZ5803947596QQ categoryZ51239QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Ram From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Aug 31 08:46:46 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:46:46 -0400 Subject: On Ebay: Dolphin SBUS-SCI Adapters Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C14@cpexchange.olf.com> If anyone wants to run a beowulfe cluster using a bunch of SBUS-based UNIX-boxes, this is a great way to start. It comes with 5 adapters... http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-5-Dolphin-SBus-SCI-SPARC-Cluster-Adapter-Cards_W0 QQitemZ5803708439QQcategoryZ3668QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem You can download MPI for Solaris which supports this (get ClusterTools for Solaris from SUN).... Ram From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 31 08:53:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:53:55 -0400 Subject: Modcomp Computer? References: <200508310114.j7V1EDrI083277@dewey.classiccmp.org> <29F85034-CAAD-4866-9A8E-D7E7D40098C0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17173.46707.689046.867338@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "CRC" == CRC writes: CRC> .... The file system was ala IBM: CRC> you allocated your files at sysgen time. I don't know about Modcomp, but that's not the IBM way. IBM had amazingly primitive file systems (at least through OS/360), but not quite *that* primitive. You could create files at anytime, but only through JCL. (Actually, I think it was possible to create files under program control, but not via the standard APIs.) The other bit of primitiveness is that OS/360 knew about the notion of files on tapes that have names, but *searching* for a tape file given its name (rather than position) was too hard a concept. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 31 09:32:21 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:32:21 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:02:34 PDT." Message-ID: <200508311432.j7VEWLmV030064@mwave.heeltoe.com> Another punch card question. Of those who've read cards recently, was moisture a problem? i.e. did the cards ever swell due to moisture and then jam, or was this not a problem? just curious. -brad From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 31 09:36:14 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:36:14 -0600 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4315C05E.2060903@srv.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One files? > I'm guessing the formats are quite different, but if you want to see a WPS-8 to WordPerfect conversion program: http://www.srv.net/~kth It might be a starting point for something like this. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 31 09:50:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:50:56 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <4315C05E.2060903@srv.net> Message-ID: <17173.50128.538748.253266@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One >> files? >> Kevin> I'm guessing the formats are quite different, but if you want Kevin> to see a WPS-8 to WordPerfect conversion program: Kevin> http://www.srv.net/~kth Interesting. As far as I know wps-plus is compatible with (superset of) wps-8. paul From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Aug 31 10:22:25 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:22:25 -0400 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C22@cpexchange.olf.com> It is labeled as: iqx0-500c 50,000000mhz dbg Thanks, Ram From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 31 10:31:49 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:31:49 -0400 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C22@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <17173.52581.875189.719677@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ram" == Ram Meenakshisundaram writes: Ram> It is labeled as: iqx0-500c 50,000000mhz dbg Just guessing from the label, it could be a 50 MHz crystal oscillator. Does it have 4 pins? Is it a metal can? paul From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 31 10:30:54 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> References: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831103013.0bf79eb8@mail> What, no fans of the venerable Pro-YAM? http://www.omen.com/ - John From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 10:51:37 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:51:37 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831103013.0bf79eb8@mail> References: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831103013.0bf79eb8@mail> Message-ID: <4315D209.6010609@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > What, no fans of the venerable Pro-YAM? http://www.omen.com/ > > - John > > I tend to use Telix for DOS. Bootable DOS + Telix <= HD Floppy capacity. Peace... Sridhar From fryers at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 11:23:08 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:23:08 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: <4315D209.6010609@gmail.com> References: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831103013.0bf79eb8@mail> <4315D209.6010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: All, On 8/31/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > I tend to use Telix for DOS. Bootable DOS + Telix <= HD Floppy capacity. > > Peace... Sridhar > I have the exact setup running - elderly LCD laptop running as a serial console for a somewhat newer machine. Draws < 10W. Boots from a single 720K floppy. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 31 11:44:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 6800 opcode $02 Message-ID: <200508311644.JAA00147@clulw009.amd.com> Hi On the 8080, one just has pullups on the bus and it will do continuous restart interrupts. This will cycle through the addresses for the push part of the instruction. This is handy for testing address decoders, especially when working with boards of unknown design. I wasn't aware that the 6800 had a similar method. Dwight >From: "Allison" > >The 6800 indeed had HCF and while I forget the opcode >(not a regular 6800 user) it was real. Basically if >the opcode was encountered the chip executed bus cycles >and did nothing else till reset. Story then was it >enabled some level of factory testing of the die for >the is it even alive test. > > >Allison > >> >>Subject: Re: 6800 opcode $02 >> From: "J.C. Wren" >> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:45:00 -0400 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> I'd suggest finding a VHDL or Verilog implementation, and see if >>that provides any insight. Also, Google for '6800 undocumented opcodes' >>(no quotes). There are a number of hits. Most seem to indicate that >>the undocumented opcode (no value given) causes the processor to go into >>a mode where there are no instruction fetchs, but the address bus runs >>incrementing bus cycles. >> >> --jc >> >>Scott Stevens wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:53:59 +0100 (BST) >>>ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Does anyone know what Opcode $02 is on a Motorola 6800 processor. It's >>>> >>>>not defined in the data sheet, but I have a device which forces that >>>>instruction onto the data bus in one of the test modes. >>>> >>>>Is it, by any chance, the infamous HCF instruction? >>>> >>>>-tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Hmm, all the other $0x opcodes on the table are inherent instructions >>>that mess with the condition code register. Looking at the order of the >>>bits in the instructions, I don't see an order that corresponds with >>>good old HINZVC (we were required to memorize this, the order of the >>>bits in the condition code register, in tech school) >>> >>>0a clears overflow (V) >>>0b sets overflow (V) >>>0c clears carry (C) >>>0d sets carry (C) >>>0e clears interrupt mask (I) >>>0f sets interrupt mask (I) >>> >>>The lower instructions defined are >>>06 Accumulator A to CCR >>>07 CCR to Accumulator A >>> >>> >>>Is there a bit-level 'Opcode Breakdown' reference for the 6800 >>>processor, that defines bit field and gives clues to how the opcodes are >>>translated in hardware, like there is (it's an elaborate table and I >>>even have a machine language Textbook that drags you through it all on >>>an early chapter) for the 8086 processor? >>> >>>The good old 6800. 'Freescale' : bah! >>> >>> >>> > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 31 11:42:57 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:42:57 +0100 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C22@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C22@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: In message <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C22 at cpexchange.olf.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > iqx0-500c 50,000000mhz dbg IQD IQXO-500C series 50MHz TTL crystal oscillator module? It it in a tin can with four pins? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Where there's a will, there's an Inheritance Tax. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 31 11:55:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? Message-ID: <200508311655.JAA00152@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" >> >It is labeled as: > >iqx0-500c 50,000000mhz dbg > >Thanks, > >Ram > Hi Sure sounds like a crystal oscillator to me as well. They are mostly in metal cans but also often in plastic cases. They usually only had 4 pins but I've seen some with 14 or 16 pins. Usually only 3 pins are used unless there is an adjust or enable input as well. Dwight From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Aug 31 12:36:30 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:36:30 -0400 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C@cpexchange.olf.com> Turns out to be the wrong chip :-( The person who mailed me the specs sent the wrong chip info. Yes, it is a crystal oscillator. The actual part info I was looking for was a82786 18062010 85 87 which I think is a graphics chip from Intel... Sorry about that, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwight.elvey at amd.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:56 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Does anybody know what this chip is? > > > >From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > >> > >It is labeled as: > > > >iqx0-500c 50,000000mhz dbg > > > >Thanks, > > > >Ram > > > > Hi > Sure sounds like a crystal oscillator to me as well. > They are mostly in metal cans but also often in plastic > cases. They usually only had 4 pins but I've seen some > with 14 or 16 pins. Usually only 3 pins are used unless > there is an adjust or enable input as well. > Dwight > > From technobug at comcast.net Wed Aug 31 12:41:14 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:41:14 -0700 Subject: Modcomp Computer? In-Reply-To: <200508311700.j7VH03bo089602@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508311700.j7VH03bo089602@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:53:55 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't know about Modcomp, but that's not the IBM way. IBM had > amazingly primitive file systems (at least through OS/360), but not > quite *that* primitive. You could create files at anytime, but only > through JCL. (Actually, I think it was possible to create files under > program control, but not via the standard APIs.) > > [...] > paul > You are talking about big iron here. The IBM 1800, SEL, and Modcomp were essentially toys which used a preallocated file system to ensure speed in file access. All files were guaranteed contiguous and of know size. The editor, compiler, and linker each had their own segments which they individually managed. The editor would create "files" within its segment. The JCL on these machines was quite rudimentary and did not include any capability to re-hack the file system. You could always design an application to partition and manage one of the preallocated segments. I remember having to re-sysgen the system numerous time while we were designing the application in order to optimize the file sizes. CRC From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 31 13:26:07 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200508311326.07814.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 31 August 2005 12:36, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Turns out to be the wrong chip :-( > The person who mailed me the specs sent the wrong chip info. > Yes, it is a crystal oscillator. The actual part info I was > looking for was a82786 18062010 85 87 which I think is a graphics > chip from Intel... There's a lot of information if you do a google search for "82786 intel", including some PDFs from Intel's website. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 31 13:31:57 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:31:57 +0100 Subject: Does anybody know what this chip is? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: In message <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545C2C at cpexchange.olf.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > looking for was a82786 18062010 85 87 which I think is a graphics chip > from Intel... Yup - there's a photo of one at: and the part number format seems to match. A google search for "Intel 82786" returned loads of hits - Intel appnotes and such. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook Electronics rule #1: A $500 component will blow to protect a $10 surge protector. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Aug 31 13:33:09 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:33:09 -0400 Subject: Modcomp Computer? References: <200508311700.j7VH03bo089602@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17173.63461.460287.102399@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "CRC" == CRC writes: CRC> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:53:55 -0400, Paul Koning CRC> wrote: >> I don't know about Modcomp, but that's not the IBM way. IBM had >> amazingly primitive file systems (at least through OS/360), but >> not quite *that* primitive. You could create files at anytime, >> but only through JCL. (Actually, I think it was possible to >> create files under program control, but not via the standard >> APIs.) >> >> [...] paul >> CRC> You are talking about big iron here. The IBM 1800, SEL, and CRC> Modcomp were essentially toys which used a preallocated file CRC> system to ensure speed in file access. All files were guaranteed CRC> contiguous and of know size. The editor, compiler, and linker CRC> each had their own segments which they individually managed. The CRC> editor would create "files" within its segment. The JCL on these CRC> machines was quite rudimentary and did not include any CRC> capability to re-hack the file system. You could always design CRC> an application to partition and manage one of the preallocated CRC> segments. CRC> I remember having to re-sysgen the system numerous time while we CRC> were designing the application in order to optimize the file CRC> sizes. Interesting. DEC did it much better in RT-11 -- a very fast and simple file system without any gratuitous pain in the neck operating limitations like that. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 31 13:50:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:50:33 -0400 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 Message-ID: <0IM3005CVO9W8P72@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 6800 opcode $02 > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Hi > On the 8080, one just has pullups on the bus and >it will do continuous restart interrupts. This >will cycle through the addresses for the push part of >the instruction. This is handy for testing address >decoders, especially when working with boards of >unknown design. > I wasn't aware that the 6800 had a similar method. >Dwight > Not quite the same. The 8080 RST (also works for z80 and 8085) will revert to normal operation if rom(or any instruction source) is encountered. The HCF required hard reset to escape as it was not a useful instruction. Hence the name Halt and Catch Fire. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 14:02:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:02:04 -0400 Subject: Modcomp Computer? In-Reply-To: <17173.63461.460287.102399@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200508311700.j7VH03bo089602@dewey.classiccmp.org> <17173.63461.460287.102399@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 8/31/05, Paul Koning wrote: > DEC did it much better in RT-11 -- a very fast and simple file system > without any gratuitous pain in the neck operating limitations like > that. Yeah, but squeezing the system volume was still risky. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 14:10:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:10:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a plain ASCII Windows font? In-Reply-To: References: <007a01c5abe6$2ec5a620$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200508290106.j7T16Fgp055066@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050831103013.0bf79eb8@mail> <4315D209.6010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/31/05, Simon Fryer wrote: > I have the exact setup running - elderly LCD laptop running as a serial > console for a somewhat newer machine. Draws < 10W. Boots from a single 720K > floppy. Mine is a Zenith 8-bit laptop w/dual 720K pop-up floppies w/DOS and Kermit... I use either the built-in serial port for direct connect or a Xircom PE3 pocket ethernet adapter w/DOS packet drive when I want to telnet to the far end. It would be completely portable if I were to rebuild the NiCd battery pack and find a place to tap +5VDC off for the PE3 (I have a keyboard dongle pigtail, but no keyboard port on the Zenith). I've contemplated building the PE3 inside the case where the factory modem would go. It's only slightly larger than my Planar ELT-320 dumb terminal (which needs a source of +12VDC at a couple of amps). -ethan From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Aug 31 14:20:40 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:20:40 +0200 Subject: Reading DECtapes (was 1/2" tape cleaner?) In-Reply-To: <17157.415.49000.127973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17157.415.49000.127973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1125516040.15387.1.camel@fortran> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 17:46 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > There are stories from DEC about DECtapes that were in someone's > pocket and went through the laundry, without any damage. Around the PDP-7 its nickname was "chewing gum tape" because they were fairly sure that someone could chew on it for a while and mount it without any problems. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 31 15:02:10 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:02:10 -0400 Subject: TD100 delay line chip? Message-ID: <200508312002.j7VK2AmE012179@mwave.heeltoe.com> The question about the ttl oscillator jogged my memory. Anyone recognize a line of "delay line" chips with names like TD25, TD50, TD100, etc... The look they were expensive at the time, like $10 around 1976. The TD100 pinout looks like this: +------+ input | 1 14 | vcc | 2 13 | | 3 12 | 20ns 40ns | 4 11 | | 5 10 | 60s 80ns | 6 9 | gnd | 7 8 | 100ns +------+ I don't have an exact part number or mfg. (I know where I can find one but it's not easy and will take some work) I want to model these in verilog but I'm not exactly sure how they work. They are delay lines, but I'm not sure how they react. The input seems to be a short pulse from high to low of about 40ns. I'm assuming this produces an approx 40ns pulse after the prescibed delay, but I'm not entirely sure. I would love to see a few pages from a data book which describes how these react (enough to model them correctly). any pointers? -brad From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Aug 31 15:18:41 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TD100 delay line chip? Message-ID: <200508312018.NAA00274@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brad Parker" > > >The question about the ttl oscillator jogged my memory. > >Anyone recognize a line of "delay line" chips with names like TD25, >TD50, TD100, etc... The look they were expensive at the time, like $10 >around 1976. > >The TD100 pinout looks like this: > > +------+ >input | 1 14 | vcc > | 2 13 | > | 3 12 | 20ns >40ns | 4 11 | > | 5 10 | 60s >80ns | 6 9 | >gnd | 7 8 | 100ns > +------+ > >I don't have an exact part number or mfg. (I know where I can find one >but it's not easy and will take some work) > >I want to model these in verilog but I'm not exactly sure how they work. >They are delay lines, but I'm not sure how they react. The input seems >to be a short pulse from high to low of about 40ns. I'm assuming this >produces an approx 40ns pulse after the prescibed delay, but I'm not >entirely sure. Hi This is generally true. You can assume that the intent is to delay any edge by the specified time. If the pulse was longer or shorter, it is as though both edges took some time to get to the output pins. For the longer delays, these used actual delay lines, composed of inductance and capacitance. I would assume that in verilog, it was just a # delay. The various taps delay events at the input by the specified amounts. Dwight > >I would love to see a few pages from a data book which describes how >these react (enough to model them correctly). > >any pointers? > >-brad > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 31 15:18:51 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:18:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: TD100 delay line chip? Message-ID: <20050831201851.81293.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> They're just LC delay lines with schmitt output buffers. Each delay step is a T network with the L component on the arms of the T and the C component to ground. Any signal on the input appears xx nanoseconds later on each of the tap outputs. Lee. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 31 15:55:26 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:55:26 -0400 Subject: TD100 delay line chip? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:18:41 PDT." <200508312018.NAA00274@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200508312055.j7VKtQSM017428@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >>From: "Brad Parker" >> >>Anyone recognize a line of "delay line" chips with names like TD25, >>TD50, TD100, etc... The look they were expensive at the time, like $10 >>around 1976. >> ... >I would assume that in verilog, it was just a # delay. > The various taps delay events at the input by the specified >amounts. heh. I guess I guessed correctly for the TD250 :-) always @(posedge INPUT) begin O_50ns <= #(50) 1; O_100ns <= #(100) 1; O_150ns <= #(150) 1; O_200ns <= #(200) 1; O_250ns <= #(250) 1; end always @(negedge INPUT) begin O_50ns <= #(50) 0; O_100ns <= #(100) 0; O_150ns <= #(150) 0; O_200ns <= #(200) 0; O_250ns <= #(250) 0; end From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 31 16:45:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:45:14 -0400 Subject: TD100 delay line chip? Message-ID: <0IM3008YGWCZZL00@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TD100 delay line chip? > From: Brad Parker > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:02:10 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >The question about the ttl oscillator jogged my memory. > >Anyone recognize a line of "delay line" chips with names like TD25, >TD50, TD100, etc... The look they were expensive at the time, like $10 >around 1976. > >The TD100 pinout looks like this: > > +------+ >input | 1 14 | vcc > | 2 13 | > | 3 12 | 20ns >40ns | 4 11 | > | 5 10 | 60s >80ns | 6 9 | >gnd | 7 8 | 100ns > +------+ > >I don't have an exact part number or mfg. (I know where I can find one >but it's not easy and will take some work) > >I want to model these in verilog but I'm not exactly sure how they work. >They are delay lines, but I'm not sure how they react. The input seems >to be a short pulse from high to low of about 40ns. I'm assuming this >produces an approx 40ns pulse after the prescibed delay, but I'm not >entirely sure. > >I would love to see a few pages from a data book which describes how >these react (enough to model them correctly). > >any pointers? Treat it as if it were a transmission line with length N. The rough length for wire is 1ns/ft but if the wire is wound around a grounded metallic form the wire to ground acts like a transmission line and the insulation sets the spacing hence characteristic impedence as well as velocity factor. Allowing for velocity factor the 1ns/ft can be be more like 1.5ns/ft. So winding 30ft of #42 wire is actually compact and a substantial delay. I did a DL for the 16k muxed Drams that way and found I could easily measure the delay and trim the timing very accurately. It was far more stable than RC oneshots (74121/123/9602) it was stable too. During testing I was using rolls of RG174 (50 ohm .125 dia coax with a VF of .66). Turns out that even a 100ft roll was way too long. Bulky but easy to get 15ns (about 117.3 inches) delay accuratly. Allison From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Aug 31 18:00:39 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 00:00:39 +0100 Subject: Fw: [8bitcomp] Digest Number 317 Message-ID: <001a01c5ae7f$d563e320$0200a8c0@geoff> Anyone interested in Apple II stuff. Posted on 8-bit comp. website - self evident really. :>) Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: <8bitcomp at yahoogroups.com> To: <8bitcomp at yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: [8bitcomp] Digest Number 317 > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Most low income households are not online. Help bridge the digital divide today! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/cd_AJB/QnQLAA/TtwFAA/5ryolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > There is 1 message in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Lots of free Apple II software > From: "genoman45" > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:44:29 -0000 > From: "genoman45" > Subject: Lots of free Apple II software > > I found a few boxes full of Apple II software in my basement. Most > are in their original packages that remain unopened. Some packages > are open - but all is original software. > > I have no way to check to determine if the software is good. I can > throw it all out or give it away if it still is desired stuff to > someone. I live near Minneapolis. I am also willing to ship it for > the cost of UPS shipping. I guess I have 40 pounds of software and > some cards like the CP/M card and the serial card. They appear to be > in good shape. I do not want to pick through it and will give it all > away or ship it all. In other words, take it all or none - It is free > stuff after all. > > Best Buy started in St. Paul and in their first year or so they bought > out a small computer-electronic shop. That shop had Apple II software > and the new manager wanted to get rid of all of it, so he told me he > would sell it to me for a fixed price. My son, then age 11, sold some > of the software at user meetings and to friends. He did OK with it > and learned a lot about business in the process. But he did not go > through it all and left it in boxes - that is what I found in our > basement. > > Let me know if you are interested. Please put Apple II somewhere in > your email subject line and your phone number would be helpful. > > It is great to see that 8-bit is not completely dead. > > Gene > > genek at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/8bitcomp/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > 8bitcomp-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 31/08/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 31/08/05 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 31 17:31:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:31:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: 6800 opcode $02 In-Reply-To: <43150B9C.90105@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Aug 30, 5 09:45:00 pm Message-ID: > > I'd suggest finding a VHDL or Verilog implementation, and see if I am not sure those are likely to be free, and if they are they would be 'unofficial', which means they might well not implement all undocumented features correctly.. > that provides any insight. Also, Google for '6800 undocumented opcodes' > (no quotes). There are a number of hits. Most seem to indicate that > the undocumented opcode (no value given) causes the processor to go into > a mode where there are no instruction fetchs, but the address bus runs > incrementing bus cycles. That's the 'HCF' (Halt and Catch Fire) instruction I mentioned. Let me explain where all this is coming from. I have an HP37201 HPIB Extender on the bench. It's basically a 6800-based microprocessor system with the right I/O chips (FWIW, the HPIB handshake is handled in firmware, there are about 5 6821 PIAs on the board to handle the HPIB lines, the V25 dialer port, status LEDs, etc). Anyway, there's a link on the board labelled 'SA TEST'. I think that's 'Signature Analyser Test', HP having a love of such instruments. From what I've figured out so far, when it's put in the 'SA TEST' position, it disables the data bus buffers (thsoe are the 6881 chips I was asking about the other day) and uses a '241 to force 0000 0010 onto the CPU data lines (at least during CPU read cycles). I would guess this gets the CPU to do something repetitive (incrementing the address bus at full speed would be an obvious choice), so that you get meaningful signatures on all the lines. When I get enough of the instrument back together to power it up, I will flip that link and look at all relevant signals with a logic analyser. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 31 18:04:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 00:04:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: TD100 delay line chip? In-Reply-To: <200508312002.j7VK2AmE012179@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 31, 5 04:02:10 pm Message-ID: > > > The question about the ttl oscillator jogged my memory. > > Anyone recognize a line of "delay line" chips with names like TD25, > TD50, TD100, etc... The look they were expensive at the time, like $10 > around 1976. Yes, I've used them. I think they're still available. Some had internal buffering and termination, others were just the delay line. An easy way to tell them apart, given the physcial device, is that the unbuffered ons show a low DC resistance between the output pins (they are taps on a coil inside), the buffered ones do not (they have amplifier circuits between the taps and the pins). > > The TD100 pinout looks like this: > > +------+ > input | 1 14 | vcc > | 2 13 | > | 3 12 | 20ns > 40ns | 4 11 | > | 5 10 | 60s > 80ns | 6 9 | > gnd | 7 8 | 100ns > +------+ > > I don't have an exact part number or mfg. (I know where I can find one > but it's not easy and will take some work) > > I want to model these in verilog but I'm not exactly sure how they work. > They are delay lines, but I'm not sure how they react. The input seems > to be a short pulse from high to low of about 40ns. I'm assuming this > produces an approx 40ns pulse after the prescibed delay, but I'm not > entirely sure. Yes. Basically, any transition on the input pin causes a similar transition on the output after the specified delay. So if you feed in a 40ns-wide pulse, say +ve going then and look at, say, the 50ns output : The input is a 0 It goes to 1. 40nx later, it goes back to 0 and stays there after a further 10ns (i.e. 50 ns from the start), the rising edge has 'got to the output'. The output goes high. And after another 40 ns (i.e. 90ns from the start), it goes low again. ---- - ---------- Input ---- ------ ---- Output (50ns delay) Each '-' represents 10ns -tony From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 31 18:49:18 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:49:18 -0700 Subject: 6800 opcode $02 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1h263xv.tjj1gt1ezzpwyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> > > I'd suggest finding a VHDL or Verilog implementation, and see if > > that provides any insight. The MAME 6800 core says it is illegal. Which mean the opcode is just skipped. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From news at computercollector.com Wed Aug 31 19:47:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:47:57 -0400 Subject: OT: History Channel show on "Wiring America" Message-ID: <200509010057.j810vItb095067@keith.ezwind.net> 9:00PM tonight on Modern Marvels, and again at 1:00AM. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 775 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 31 20:50:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone here in NOLA? Message-ID: I hope and pray that no one here got stuck in the nightmare that is unfolding in the South. This is a calamity of Biblical proportions, and something I'd only wish on people that I truly hate. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 31 21:05:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <4314FB66.98E0ECD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look like they may have > just been stripped from complete units. > (Look at the second photo: vac-col tape drive and controller in front of scrap > heap. (3278 terminal on the lower left?)) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-IBM-3420-Panel_W0QQitemZ5236558292QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-IBM-3803-Panel_W0QQitemZ5236560257QQcategoryZ74946QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, for what, other than gawking at it? Same goes for all big IBM iron. And this is in Santiago, Chile, afterall. Granted, there are actually quite a few computer collectors in SA (and a growing number of computer museums, believe it or not) but still, who is going to want this stuff? If someone can get down to SA with a big truck, there's actually quite a bit of old (in some cases very old) IBM iron floating around down there. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 21:08:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:08:23 -0500 Subject: Any Data I/O 29B / PROMlink 6.10 / LogiPak experts out there? Message-ID: Trying to get the ball rolling with my recently-aquired Data I/O 29B, I have PROMlink 6.10 working perfectly with the Unipak 2B, testing out operations with some TI 27C256s, but I'm having problems getting the LogicPak to cooperate. >From inside PROMlink 6.10, I can send Intel Hex files to the 29B when the Unipak 2B is loaded, I can verify devices, I can blank check, and it all works. Referencing the "using computer remote control" application note, when the LogicPak is loaded, I can manually send commands from page 4 like "HHHH @" to set the device family code (the right socket lights up), "[" to return the device family code, "B" for blank check (and it _can_ tell blank from non blank parts), and "T" for illegal bit test... However, as soon as I pick an in-app operation that goes out to the programmer, it spins a character-based "in progress" flag for 8-10 seconds while "setting up" the programmer, then I get a red dialog box that says... "Timeout ... ... while sending VERIFY PASSES to the programmer" and I can't get any operations initiated (blank check, load, etc). Does this ring any bells with anyone? I've never worked with logic devices and Data I/O hardware - we had an older programmer at Software Results, perhaps a Data I/O 19. I used to program 6309 PROMs and lots of 2764-27512-sized EPROMs on it from the console pad. I'm new to a) PROMlink, and b) the LogicPak. Also, if anyone has LogicPak firmware newer than 1992, that might be nice to play with, too. Thanks, -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 31 21:09:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:09:48 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <00b201c5ae9a$3b6ccd70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, for what, other > than gawking at it? Me. I'm seriously pondering getting in to those types of systems for the usual - restoring and running. Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Aug 31 21:11:05 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:11:05 -0400 Subject: OT: History Channel show on "Wiring America" In-Reply-To: <200509010057.j810vItb095067@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509010057.j810vItb095067@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43166339.9010103@atarimuseum.com> I caught a few pieces of it, they mostly focused on power distribution, but they did have a nice ending segment showing the infamous IMP to IMP message "LO" Curt 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >9:00PM tonight on Modern Marvels, and again at 1:00AM. > > >----------------------------------------- >Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net >Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ >Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm > >*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter >- 775 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 31 21:17:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:17:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone here in NOLA? Message-ID: <0IM4009VZ8ZANIL0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Anyone here in NOLA? > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:50:03 -0700 (PDT) > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > >I hope and pray that no one here got stuck in the nightmare that is >unfolding in the South. This is a calamity of Biblical proportions, and >something I'd only wish on people that I truly hate. > Being an active ham I sometimes work the traffic nets on VHF. For a disaster of this magnitude and local comms bing munged badly that amounts to handling "health and welfare" traffic either originating here in MA or desitined for down there from here. There are more local to that area hams active in establishing local comms so that messages can move in and out of the area as well as local coordination of agencies (FEMA, Local gov., Red Cross, Salvation Army and others.). I happen to have traveled to the hardest hit area a few years ago and as it is none of the known landmarks are standing. This will leave a lasting effect greater than Camile did many years ago. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 31 21:16:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200508311432.j7VEWLmV030064@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Another punch card question. > > Of those who've read cards recently, was moisture a problem? i.e. did > the cards ever swell due to moisture and then jam, or was this not a > problem? just curious. Never had a problem with this. Most of the problems I have are cards that have not been stored appropriately and have bent or otherwise deformed over time. It's a bitch having to bend them back flat (a process of bending with my hands, over my knee, and in some cases when they just won't cooperate, whacking them repeatedly over the edge of a table). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 31 21:18:51 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:18:51 -0500 Subject: Anyone here in NOLA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050831211655.05172bd8@mail> At 08:50 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote: >I hope and pray that no one here got stuck in the nightmare that is >unfolding in the South. This is a calamity of Biblical proportions, and >something I'd only wish on people that I truly hate. Don't fret. Fox News had a press conference with Brett Favre this afternoon in which he determined that the Internet was down in Louisiana. Repeat, the Internet is down. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 31 21:20:29 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? Those of us that like REAL computers. Not the weenie DEC toys... > And if so, for what, other > than gawking at it? They are damn good drives - OK, OK, so an "odd" interface... > Same goes for all big IBM iron. To extend something that Al K. said a while back - in the future retrocomputerist are going to have a very slanted view of systems, with extremely few people saving the mainframes from the 70s thru the 90s. That is a damn big hole. > If someone can get down to SA with a big truck, there's actually quite a > bit of old (in some cases very old) IBM iron floating around down there. I have started to think that this might be the only way I can get my hands on a real IBM S/360 or 370 (or 303x or 308x or 309x, and pretty soon, ES/9000). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 31 21:35:19 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Attention AIX weenies Message-ID: <200509010235.TAA12780@floodgap.com> Or studs, if you prefer. I'm dealing with an AIX 4.1.5 system (can't be upgraded higher than this; it's unsupported hardware). This is *nearly* on topic, the box is circa 1996-7 (an Apple Network Server 500). It has 512MB of RAM and a 200MHz 604e CPU board, and a single 18.4GB SCSI-2 drive (non-RAID). It hummed along very happily until recently when it started hanging up during backup jobs. Watching it run with vmstat, I noticed that after the free page count gets under minfree a couple times (eight seems about average), it hangs up. lsps -a just before the freeze shows barely a couple percent of the paging space being used, and the avm usage count in vmstat is hardly out of the ordinary for this system, so I don't think it's running out of paging space. Increasing it 1.5x didn't make any difference anyway. Turning down maxperm to reduce the number of file pages allocated by the AIX VMM didn't make any difference either (I presume the problem is file pages since the backup job is basically a tar over the network). Right now I'm solving the problem by setting maxfree stupidly high so that whenever the free count gets under minfree, the VMM will release a massive bolus of free RAM pages (presumably from the file cache pool) and thus keep the system as far away from hitting minfree again for as long as possible. However, this is technically disgusting and can't be a good idea for filesystem performance. Hardware checks out and RAM checks out (both the power-on "LONG RAM TEST" -- and it sure is long -- and the Apple-supplied diagnostic disk). What can I do to improve this? Is this a bug in 4.1.5? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Aibohphobia, the fear of palindromes. -- Brian Braunschweiger -------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 31 21:40:46 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:40:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 floppy drive compatibility (MISSING MESSAGE) References: <3203d0306fa63efc8ee234f629aa7fd5@localisp.com> Message-ID: <016f01c5ae9e$8fee44b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Infomagic wrote... > In issue 54, I received two replies to the message I sent Saturday > evening, but my original message was not in any of issues 53, 54, or 55. > > I have noticed this kind of "disconnect" before, both with my own message > and with messages from others. > > I receive the cctech "daily digest" (often there are many each day), and I > send my messages individually from my email client to the > cctech at classiccmp.org address. If there is a message board or forum, I am > not aware of it. > > Am I missing something in my communications connections? Are you folks > using some other tools or websites? > Was my messge deliberately deleted, or has it not arrived in the digest > yet? Is this a normal behavior, or a symptom of something I'm not doing > right? > > Thanks for any help you can provide, This is due to post gaters all being on vacation or busy at the same time. It's because messages sat in the queue for too long. PLUS... when a bleary-eyed moderator goes through too many messages, occasionally (not often, but sometimes) we accidentally delete a post. Once in a while this happens because the original post is off-topic and shouldn't go to cctech, but subsequent posts with the same subject line drift back on-topic. Other times it happens because the posts held are presented by email address, so there's sometimes a LONG string of posts behind a single email address. At times (not often), we delete the original post because it's off-topic, but then later there is a single reply to the off-topic post in a string of 20 posts by a single listmember and I or others will just accept the users posts en-masse rather than each one. SO, one off-topic post reply sneaks in. Loosely translated, it's the human element :) Jay From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 31 21:54:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <00b201c5ae9a$3b6ccd70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote.... > > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who > > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, for what, other > > than gawking at it? > > Me. I'm seriously pondering getting in to those types of systems for the > usual - restoring and running. I'll keep that in mind if I ever tire of the two 3420 drives and the 3803 controller I have taking up good space ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Aug 31 21:57:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > To extend something that Al K. said a while back - in the future > retrocomputerist are going to have a very slanted view of systems, with > extremely few people saving the mainframes from the 70s thru the 90s. That > is a damn big hole. Well, I'm certainly trying to do my part to keep the record straight ;) > > If someone can get down to SA with a big truck, there's actually quite a > > bit of old (in some cases very old) IBM iron floating around down there. > > I have started to think that this might be the only way I can get my hands > on a real IBM S/360 or 370 (or 303x or 308x or 309x, and pretty soon, > ES/9000). Pfeh. That's modern stuff. I'm after 400 series accounting machines myself ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 31 22:03:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:03:17 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <021201c5aea1$b3ff5530$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > I'll keep that in mind if I ever tire of the two 3420 drives and the 3803 > controller I have taking up good space ;) Awesome, mucho appreciated. I guess no one saw my post a week ago or so that I was looking for a 3174-63R establishment controller, and a couple 3278/79 type terminals (or later 3270 compatibles). That was a dead giveaway I was tinkering with ibmstuff :> Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 31 22:25:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:25:48 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <022201c5aea4$da088c30$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> William wrote... >> I have started to think that this might be the only way I can get my >> hands >> on a real IBM S/360 or 370 (or 303x or 308x or 309x, and pretty soon, >> ES/9000). To which Sellam replied... > Pfeh. That's modern stuff. I'm after 400 series accounting machines > myself ;) I'd love an IBM 360/50 or perhaps a 370/138. A System/3 would be awesome. But in reality, I'd be happy with a 4331/41/61. Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Aug 31 22:32:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <022201c5aea4$da088c30$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > I'd love an IBM 360/50 or perhaps a 370/138. A System/3 would be awesome. > But in reality, I'd be happy with a 4331/41/61. S/3s are different animals - extremely not S/360. Neat character string machines, however. I do know where one of those (S/3 mod 6) is available, and I am keeping my mouth shut. Until I get it, that is. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 31 22:37:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:37:18 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <022f01c5aea6$75d9a850$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> William wrote... > S/3s are different animals - extremely not S/360. Neat character string > machines, however. Yup, I'm aware they are very different animals, not 360/70 architecture. I want this one because it's "the one that got away". Long story ;) > I do know where one of those (S/3 mod 6) is available, > and I am keeping my mouth shut. Until I get it, that is. *runs off to that satellite imaging website* Jay From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Aug 31 23:49:58 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:49:58 +0200 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Same goes for all big IBM iron. And this is in Santiago, Chile, > afterall. > Granted, there are actually quite a few computer collectors in SA (and > a > growing number of computer museums, believe it or not) but still, who > is > going to want this stuff? > > If someone can get down to SA with a big truck, there's actually quite > a > bit of old (in some cases very old) IBM iron floating around down > there. > For those on the right ( i.e. not left...) side of the Atlantic : a chap in Austria is desparate in getting rid of a nice looking IBM1130. The system is currently on Ebay Austria, no bids with a day to go. Sadly it is CPU only, i.e. no printer and cardreader, but does have a nice collection of disk packs. For those who know : is the software adaptable enough to reroute IO to the console I would still be tempted if it was not a 6 hour drive one way across the Alps. Jos From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Aug 31 23:56:22 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1130 on eBay Austria Message-ID: <20050901045622.48293.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> There is an IBM 1130 up for sale on eBay in Austria. The current price is 500 euros, with no bids and scarcely a day to go. --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Aug 31 23:58:27 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1130 on eBay Austria In-Reply-To: <20050901045622.48293.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050901045828.72968.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Maddox wrote: > There is an IBM 1130 up for sale on eBay in Austria. > The current price is 500 euros, with no bids and > scarcely a day to go. > > --Bill I see Jos beat me to this. Anyway, I hope someone buys this machine. --Bill From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Tue Aug 30 12:52:08 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:52:08 -0500 Subject: More unknown stuff In-Reply-To: <431497F3.CAC16634@rain.org> Message-ID: <200508301802.j7UI23Kh077752@keith.ezwind.net> > I haven't heard that name in a *long* time. They were > originally in Goleta California and IIRC moved somewhere down > south in the 70's. What information are you after? Anything about the drive that this hardware came out of. We have a museum of sorts to illustrate computer development to our CS students and have a bunch of older hardware items that we try to position in the spectrum of things. Model number, when, how big, how fast, ... anything. TIA, Gil > > A. G. Carrick wrote: > > > I had previously asked about a disk platter I was trying to > identify. > > I have a couple of more pictures of it as well as some > items from another drive. > > The latter is stamped "INFOMAG". By doing some www research > I thought I had From info at museum-of-computing.org.uk Tue Aug 30 16:33:35 2005 From: info at museum-of-computing.org.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:33:35 +0100 Subject: GEC computers models 4195 and 4185 Message-ID: Is there anyone with any experience of these machines? If so there might be some work available providing some initial support or training to a company that needs to keep these going! Contact me at swebb at cix.co.uk Simon From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 30 22:48:00 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:48:00 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink RELOADED! Message-ID: <43152870.7080503@jbrain.com> For those who care, work is progressing nicely on the Internet re-implementation of the Commodore(tm) QuantumLink service. The hope is to re-introduce the basic service on the 20th Anniversary of the Q-Link introduction: November 1, 2005. There is still plenty to implement, and information to load, but the infrastructure looks to be in place. We've secured the quantum-link.org domain for information and the eventual web portal. As of this week, the service has been set up for continuous operation, with new code drops loaded in the early mornings. the server can be accessed at qlink.quantum-link.org:5190 by a real Commodore C64/128 using an RS232 interface cabled to the Internet via PC or RS232-to-Ethernet adapter. The server can also be accessed via the VICE and WinVICE C64 emulator. Details for both configurations are posted on the www.quantum-link.org home page. As of 8-30-2005, People Connection and all main information areas are functional, as is email, online messages, and message bases. File transfers will be implemented soon, and then the basic People Connection games. Re-implementing Club Caribe and the Habitat system are also goals of the project, though more ambitious and will not be attempted before the launch. Although the server is still in pre-alpha stage, it regularly hosts a lively chat in the PC Lobby with a dozen or so users. I encourage you to join us for some fun alpha and beta testing. The system will be demonstrated and a discussion on the methods for re-implementing this complex service given at the SWRAP EXPO in Chicago, IL on September 17th, 2005. Although many folks have given support to the project, a few deserve special mention. I want to thank the following individuals: Keith Henrickson, who spent countless hours with the Q-Link client runnng in the VICE monitor deciphering and reverse engineering large portions of the Q-Link command structure and verb set. Keith has also continued to oncover new portions of the verb set, including message bases and file transfers Keith Elkin, whose archived videotaped Q-Link sessions proved instrumental in setting message layouts, response strings, and timing. Raymond Day, who managed to archive a trace of 2 actual Q-Link user sessions. One provided the key to fully implementing the information areas, and allowed the extraction of 200+ menu items and 100+ files from the original system, and the other held information crucial to implementing message bases and provided insights on how the file areas operated. The VICE Emulator team. Without this tool, development would not have progressed to this state. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From g-wright at att.net Wed Aug 31 00:35:07 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:35:07 +0000 Subject: IBM S/36 5362 Needs a home Seattle area Message-ID: <083120050535.29956.4315418A00064AB10000750421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Still doing some shop cleaning. IBM S/36 Model 5362 . looks complete , less Terminal. This is a desk side system. looks to be in good condition. Has not been tested or turned on. Has a 8" floppy and hard drive. There are 2 manuals inside the case. This is quit heavy. local pick only. 75.00 Also, last call on these. They are on "Death Row" Grahman magnetics (Carlisle) "Inspector IV MPC" Mag tape Evaluation system. This is a Vacuum column Mag tape tester. has lots of LED's and LED read outs . Quit a piece to watch run. Works. This is quit heavy. local pickup only. Free to a good home 4) DEC HSC systems. models 60 to 90. no hard drives These are quit heavy. local pick up only Free to a good home I'm located in Kent Wa. south of Seattle Thanks, Jerry Jerry wright JLC inc. 800-292-6370 PST From trag at io.com Wed Aug 31 13:28:41 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:28:41 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: <200508311702.j7VH2I0H089656@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508311702.j7VH2I0H089656@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I am looking for specifications for the 64 pin SIMMs used in the Macintosh IIFX and one or two of the LaserWriters (IINT, IINTX?). I have the pinout from the "Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware" but could use the physical dimensions, i.e. an engineering drawing. Any special electronic considerations would be nice to know too. I'm thinking about running off a few homebrew boards. One of Apple's old Tech Notes states, "The IIfx has 64-pin SIMMs, which are different from previous Macintosh models. Developers can request mechanical drawings and electrical specifications of the IIfx RAM SIMM modules from DTS. Please send the request with a mailing address and include the words "IIfx SIMM information request" in the title of the electronic mail request or letter to facilitate handling." But since that note was last updated in 1991, I'm guessing that wouldn't work any more. But if one of you sent off for that information way back when, I would love to see it. My main concern is that the pinout lists a separate data pin for data in and data out. So even though they are eight bit SIMMs, there is a Data In [0:7] and Data Out [0:7] in the pin out. It's possible, perhaps likely, that these are simply tied together, but it would be nice to see some confirmation. The chips I've identified on IIfx SIMMs don't appear to be dual ported and I don't see any extra circuitry on the SIMM that could be making an adaptation, but I'm working from JPEGs so far. If this looks feasible I'll actually spring for a IIfx and a few SIMMs to work from. On the other hand, if the SIMMs require some rare dual data ported DRAM chips, then I'll drop the idea. Jeff Walther