From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Nov 1 04:29:00 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:29:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP9133D disk replacement. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, if you want to give it a go, I can probably find an image of the > 9133H firmware EPROM. And I should have the memory/IO map of the unit > somewhere. At least that would tell you which address corresponds to Feel free to email me the firmware. I will then try to do my best :-) >> For example, I have disassembled the firmware of the HP 7958A and found >> out how to low-level format a foreign ESDI disk (the original one had >> failed) with different geometry (the geometry is read from the drive since >> it is ESDI). In this case HP-UX mediainit in guru mode was my friend. > > I hope you've kept a record of this procedure. It's the sort of thing > others may have to do sometime... Of course; it wasn't trivial to find the correct parameters (I think that I even had started to disassemble the PA-RISC binary of mediainit until I found the instructions somewhere on the net). After all, it is basically sending the CS/80 "INIT MEDIA" command with IIRC function number 3 (which is undocumented). Christian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Nov 1 07:32:05 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:32:05 -0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <07d901c93c1d$faabefe0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > So - none has a S8000... at home? ;) > I'm missing a backplane so I tried at first hooking up power on my CPU > module and connecting a serial interface to the tty1 (console) pins of > the bus-connector.... powering on the system makes the cpu getting a bit > warm but my console is quiet :( I'm not sure if I've to connect some > other pins as well with +5V or GND. NMI... RESET whatever... so I > wonder if someone has a S8000 at hand and can measure some things? Old computers with serial port? Take a look at the 1488 and 1489 chips, they have to be supplied with +12 and -12 tensions. Don't forget old RAM memories who uses -5 volts... From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Nov 1 09:07:23 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:07:23 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <07d901c93c1d$faabefe0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <07d901c93c1d$faabefe0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20081101150723.cc853979.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Old computers with serial port? Take a look at the 1488 and 1489 chips, > they have to be supplied with +12 and -12 tensions. Don't forget old RAM > memories who uses -5 volts... I'v +12 and -12V connected, but I doubt the Z80-SIOs are using this voltage. RAMs are 2114 4K S-RAM - so no -5V... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 1 09:11:58 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? In-Reply-To: from Joshua Alexander Dersch at "Oct 31, 8 05:24:54 pm" Message-ID: <200811011411.mA1EBwvr007294@floodgap.com> > Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic macs (68k > based)? > > I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I > consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from System 7 > disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably means bad > memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether it's the > onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... > > My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, and early > PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). If you can find Snooper, I think it has a RAM test tool in it that will work and does not require the Snooper NuBus board to be installed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Nov 1 14:03:08 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:03:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for a ST419 Message-ID: <01C93C2A.C004C1C0@host-208-72-123-70.dyn.295.ca> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:30:49 -0500 From: Chris Elmquist Subject: Re: Looking for a ST419 I'm new here so I apologize for opening this old can of worms :-) That's the path I've been on. I envision over-sampling and then just playing and recording what was sent to the drive. I'd make no attempt to go inside that datastream and try to interpret what was read or written. If entire tracks were always written, then it seems rather straightforward to just store track images and play and record them as they are seeked to. Ya... so, again I'm new here :-) But I'll go away quitely and think about this some more-- knowing now that I can't cheat and do tracks at a time. Chris -------------Reply: Oh, I don't know; that's all it'd take to make a few of us Cromemco folks with failing MFM drives happy... mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 1 13:36:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:36:24 -0400 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <6CAD597F-EA91-45A6-9049-5E6782D4BE2B@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > So - none has a S8000... at home? ;) I had one at home in 1988 or so. I miss it terribly. I know of someone who has one (or at least, he did a few years ago) and was looking to part with it, but I've been having trouble contacting him. Perhaps someday. What neat systems they are. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 1 14:02:08 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:02:08 -0400 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 schematics? Message-ID: <241B3F6F-7504-49EF-AAAF-910BB6460087@neurotica.com> Hey folks. I'm looking for schematics for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 terminal. I don't see anything related on Bitsavers, which surprises me. Would anyone have this handy? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 1 14:07:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:07:33 -0600 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 schematics? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:02:08 -0400. <241B3F6F-7504-49EF-AAAF-910BB6460087@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <241B3F6F-7504-49EF-AAAF-910BB6460087 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > > Hey folks. I'm looking for schematics for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 > terminal. I don't see anything related on Bitsavers, which surprises > me. Would anyone have this handy? > I believe its similar to the ADM-3. The maintenance manual for the AMD-3 is online here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 1 15:40:49 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:40:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a ST419 In-Reply-To: <20081031213049.GM16012@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Oct 31, 8 04:30:49 pm Message-ID: > That's the path I've been on. I envision over-sampling and then just > playing and recording what was sent to the drive. I'd make no attempt > to go inside that datastream and try to interpret what was read or > written. > > If entire tracks were always written, then it seems rather straightforward > to just store track images and play and record them as they are seeked > to. > > It may not be that much harder to do the same on a sector basis. It's > just more critical timing of when you play back stuff or decide which > sector you are in when data comes at you with the write gate open. It's not conceptually that complicated. The basic idea is to have an 'image' of a track stored in some kind of semiconductor memory. And you keep on replaying that a s bitstream into the read data input of the controller, generating an index pulse of course at the appropraite time. When you get a write gate fro mthe controller you then start sampling the write data output from the controller and overwriting the stored bitstream. Yes, there might be glitches at the start/end of a write, but presumaly no wores than on a physical disk. On a head swtich or head step (to a different cylinder) you replace the image in memory with the correct one for the new track. The problem is in the details. In particlur I don't think any normal flash memory will be fast enough to directly read out the track image and blast it to the controller, and I'm darn sure it's not fast enough for a direct write. Which means you need to have a buffer memory of high-speed SRAM to store the current track image This needs to be loaded from flash on a track change, and written back afterwards _iff it was updated by the controller_ Now, there are 2 types of track change, a head switch and a cylinder movement .The latter is easier, since it can take as long as you like (within reason), there's a seek-complete line back to the controller. But a head swithc has to be essentially instantaneous. Which probably means having enough SRAM to buffer the tracks for all heads on a given cylinder and then keeping an 'undated' flag for each track, writing back only those that have changeed. > > I have considered using the SPI (or similar) interface on a > microcontroller to yield a parallel to serial/serial to parallel > conversion but that is about as far as I have thought about this... I didn't think SPI was anything like fast enough for this. I looked into using a _lot_ of F-series TTL chips, and rather gave up on the idea. Maybe I should have another go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 1 15:55:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:55:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? Message-ID: This is classiccmp-related in that I am repairing an old HP 'Multiprogrammer' (a modular input/output system for HP2100s, HPIB machines, etc). While dismantling it I had one screw shear off and had to drill out pop-rivets holding a heatsink to the side casting. So waht I am looking for is a source of small UNC nuts and bolts in reasonable quantites. 'Small' means 4-40, 6-32 and 8-32. I would be looking for countersunk and pan head scewws, nuts, lockwashers, etc. 'Reasonable quantities' would be a bag of 100. These are not at all common in the UK, we tend to use BA (older machines) or metric (M3/M4 sizes). Does anyone know a company who can sypply these to the UK? Preferably one based in the UK (to save on postage charges), but there's no real problem with shipping a ag of nuts and bolts from anywhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 1 15:32:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:32:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Problems with VAX 11/750 console In-Reply-To: <26472043.1225442327967.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Julian Wolfe" at Oct 31, 8 03:38:47 am Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > I'm trying again to get my 11/750 running. It turns on, power lights > are green, machine comes up halted with the dim error light as it > should. THe problem I am having is, I get no console...I get an echo > back of the characters I type, but nothing else. Doing a BREAK command > or a Ctrl-P does nothing. A couple of questions : 1) Do you get an _exact_ echo back, or is the system processing the characters at all. In particular, does it add the after a 2) What, precisely, are you using as a console terminal? > Now, this does not sound similar to my problem. I have indeed > verified that all the jumpers on the backplane are in the right place, > and so are the connectors. The jumper is set to 300 baud, and that is > indeed the only setting I get a clean echo back without garbage on. I asusme you're chaning both the VAX baud rate jumper and the buad rate of the terminal. What happens if you set the VAX to, say, 1200 baud and keep the terminal at 300 baud. Do you get a clean echo then? You shouldn't, of course, but I've seen something like this once before. It was that the ground between the computer and the terminal was open. The whole computer logic was acting as a poor _hardware_ loopback between TxD and RxD of the terminal. It wouldn't run very fast due to the excessive capacitacs between terminal ground and the 'loopback'. In fact when I had this it was even more evil. A genuine DEC terminal worked (this was on a port of a DECserver IIRC), but a laptop wouldn't. The reason was that the terminal's signal ground was internally tied to mains earth, and the gorund parth was being completed that way. The laptop, being battery-powered didn't have a connection to ground. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 1 17:54:24 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:54:24 -0500 Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490CDE20.5060700@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > This is classiccmp-related in that I am repairing an old HP > 'Multiprogrammer' (a modular input/output system for HP2100s, HPIB > machines, etc). While dismantling it I had one screw shear off and had to > drill out pop-rivets holding a heatsink to the side casting. > > So waht I am looking for is a source of small UNC nuts and bolts in > reasonable quantites. 'Small' means 4-40, 6-32 and 8-32. I would be > looking for countersunk and pan head scewws, nuts, lockwashers, etc. > 'Reasonable quantities' would be a bag of 100. These are not at all > common in the UK, we tend to use BA (older machines) or metric (M3/M4 > sizes). Hmm, try Mackay's in Cambridge (01223 517000) - they're an engineering firm but also have a public store, and normally carry a good range (and are staffed by the sort of people who'll tell you who to contact if they don't have the thing in stock themselves). I used to use them for hardware odds and ends all the time. Failing that, Apex Fasteners in Slough may be able to help (01753 525334) - the specialise in things like nuts and bolts, but it's been so long I don't remember if they carry UNC stuff or not. If neither of those work (and nobody else can help), shout and I'll ask some of the engineering types at Bletchley - I expect they'd know. cheers Jules From mc at media.mit.edu Sat Nov 1 19:46:56 2008 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:46:56 -0400 Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? In-Reply-To: <200811010909.mA199ftw003837@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811010909.mA199ftw003837@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Josh, If you can't boot the OS, you'd be hard-pressed to run a memory test. As you already suspect, that error strongly suggests a hardware error. Assuming the memory is not soldered to the motherboard, the first thing I would do is to re-seat the memory. If that doesn't work, I'd try removing some of it, and try different combinations of memory cards to see if some subset works. Usually memory from that era needs to be added and removed in pairs, and needs to positioned in the right slots. --Tim On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:09 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:24:54 -0400 > From: "Joshua Alexander Dersch" > Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8" > > Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic > macs (68k > based)? > > I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I > consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from > System 7 > disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably > means bad > memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether > it's the > onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... > > My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, > and early > PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). > > Thanks, > Josh From trag at io.com Sun Nov 2 00:08:48 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:08:48 -0500 Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? In-Reply-To: <200811011800.mA1I0VWw008339@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811011800.mA1I0VWw008339@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) >From: Cameron Kaiser >> Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic macs (68k >> based)? >> >> I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I >> consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from System 7 >> disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably means bad >> memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether it's the >> onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... >> >> My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, and early >> PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). > >If you can find Snooper, I think it has a RAM test tool in it that will work >and does not require the Snooper NuBus board to be installed. RAMometer from (OOB) NewerTech works on older Macs. I know it will work on 68030 Macs. I'm not sure if it will work on 68000 based Macs. It might need the PMMU. I think there's a copy in my webspace: http://www.io.com/~trag Jeff Walther From mike at brickfieldspark.org Sun Nov 2 03:19:18 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:19:18 -0000 Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? References: Message-ID: <001301c93cce$16bd6410$3400a8c0@xyleth.local> Hi, We use a local supplier here (North Hampshire, I believe they are in Yately) who do small quantities of UNC type American screws, quite a bit of our equipment is non metric. Can't remember the name but I can find out tomorrow when I get back into work and post their details. They will do small (<100) quantities, well they do for us anyway. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.brickfieldspark.org Email - mike at brickfieldspark.org Urban Wildlife at www.brickfieldspark.org/uwringhome.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? > This is classiccmp-related in that I am repairing an old HP > 'Multiprogrammer' (a modular input/output system for HP2100s, HPIB > machines, etc). While dismantling it I had one screw shear off and had to > drill out pop-rivets holding a heatsink to the side casting. > > So waht I am looking for is a source of small UNC nuts and bolts in > reasonable quantites. 'Small' means 4-40, 6-32 and 8-32. I would be > looking for countersunk and pan head scewws, nuts, lockwashers, etc. > 'Reasonable quantities' would be a bag of 100. These are not at all > common in the UK, we tend to use BA (older machines) or metric (M3/M4 > sizes). > > Does anyone know a company who can sypply these to the UK? Preferably one > based in the UK (to save on postage charges), but there's no real problem > with shipping a ag of nuts and bolts from anywhere. > > -tony > > From jeffj at panix.com Sat Nov 1 11:35:59 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <200811011552.mA1Fqdmv007325@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811011552.mA1Fqdmv007325@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: Oliver Lehmann > Subject: Re: Zilog System 8000 > So - none has a S8000... at home? ;) The MARCH computer museum at New Jersey's Infoage has a Zilog Z8000 model 21. http://www.infoage.org http://midatlanticretro.org/ Sadly, I scrapped my model 21 and 31 when Linux overtook Unix as the preferred software developer's platform. I still have some pieces (SMD hard drive) but I gave away some of the main boards to someone claiming to want them for the CPUs. I'm unsure how to get it running from bare boards because I suspect the backplane was not just parallel connectors. All the slots were specific to the CPU, RAM, disk controller, serial ports, tape drive, etc. How I wish I had photos of the Exxon Office Systems office in New York's Rockefeller center in 1982 when they were selling the Zilog System 8000 running the Zeus OS as servers to Z80 systems running Z-net (their proprietory coax network). Only a few years later at the NJ Trenton Computer Fest, a fellow was selling a pair from the back of a red pickup truck. What a fall from grace! > I'm missing a backplane so I tried at first hooking up power on my CPU > module and connecting a serial interface to the tty1 (console) pins of > the bus-connector.... powering on the system makes the cpu getting a bit > warm but my console is quiet :( I'm not sure if I've to connect some > other pins as well with +5V or GND. NMI... RESET whatever... so I > wonder if someone has a S8000 at hand and can measure some things? I suspect you'll need the front panel with the reset and interrupt buttons (and a few LEDs) to invoke the ROM monitor. Or at least know where they connect. Yes, I miss having a real ROM monitor but it was no fun working on an abandoned system by myself. > From: "Paxton Hoag" > Subject: Re: Zilog System 8000 > I have a card set and backplane saved from a machine that went to > scrap, nothing else. It is lost in my container. I saved the hard drive since I was hoping to use it on another system, failing to predict the amazing velocity of new technology becoming available to everyone. From leaknoil at comcast.net Sat Nov 1 17:41:55 2008 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (Pete) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:41:55 -0700 Subject: Monroe OC 8820 - OS8MT Message-ID: <490CDB33.5000409@comcast.net> I just picked up one of these old CP/M boxes but, I've been unable to locate any software for it or documentation. They ran a custom version of CP/M called OS8MT and came with a few different software packages. They were made around 1984 I think. Old-computers.com has a little bit about it if it helps ring any bells. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1078 If anyone knows of a source for any of these disks or docs I would love to know about it. The system is in excellent shape and the monitor clear and sharp. Really a shame for it to not be able to do anything but, hold my doors open. Thanks From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Nov 1 20:44:57 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:44:57 -0700 Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200811010909.mA199ftw003837@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <490D0619.2000806@msu.edu> I can boot the system from System 6 disks (guess its smaller footprint makes a difference) and my System 7.1 CD if I boot with Extensions disabled. From there I can run some kind of diagnostic, if I can find one to run. I only have one (working) memory card (and there's only one slot in the Portable). Without it installed I can only boot System 6 (which works fine even with it installed). Thanks, Josh Tim McNerney wrote: > Josh, > > If you can't boot the OS, you'd be hard-pressed to run a memory test. > As you already suspect, that error strongly suggests a hardware error. > Assuming the memory is not soldered to the motherboard, the first thing > I would do is to re-seat the memory. If that doesn't work, I'd try > removing > some of it, and try different combinations of memory cards to see > if some subset works. Usually memory from that era needs to be > added and removed in pairs, and needs to positioned in the right slots. > > --Tim > > On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:09 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Message: 26 >> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:24:54 -0400 >> From: "Joshua Alexander Dersch" >> Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8" >> >> Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic macs >> (68k >> based)? >> >> I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I >> consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from >> System 7 >> disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably >> means bad >> memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether >> it's the >> onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... >> >> My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, and >> early >> PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). >> >> Thanks, >> Josh > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Nov 2 01:21:29 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:21:29 -0700 Subject: Memory test util for classic macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200811011800.mA1I0VWw008339@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <490D54F9.2070709@msu.edu> Thanks! As fate would have it, just as I was going to test this program on the Portable, the RAM card stopped working entirely (the Mac refuses to recognize it now). So maybe my question has answered itself :). Josh Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Cameron Kaiser > >>> Anyone know of a decent memory test utility that runs on classic >>> macs (68k >>> based)? >>> >>> I have an old Mac Portable that I'm struggling to get an OS on -- I >>> consistently get "bad F-line instruction" traps when booting from >>> System 7 >>> disks (floppies and CD-ROMs), which from what I can tell probably >>> means bad >>> memory. I'd like to find out if it IS memory, and if so, whether >>> it's the >>> onboard 1mb (I hope not) or on the 4mb expansion... >>> >>> My internet searches have come up dry (I've found stuff for OS X, >>> and early >>> PowerMacs, but nothing for the 68k line). >> >> If you can find Snooper, I think it has a RAM test tool in it that >> will work >> and does not require the Snooper NuBus board to be installed. > > RAMometer from (OOB) NewerTech works on older Macs. I know it will > work on 68030 Macs. I'm not sure if it will work on 68000 based > Macs. It might need the PMMU. I think there's a copy in my > webspace: http://www.io.com/~trag > > Jeff Walther > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 2 11:12:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:12:38 -0800 Subject: Monroe OC 8820 - OS8MT In-Reply-To: <490CDB33.5000409@comcast.net> References: <490CDB33.5000409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <490D6F06.2019.2B29051@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2008 at 15:41, Pete wrote: > I just picked up one of these old CP/M boxes but, I've been unable to > locate any software for it or documentation. They ran a custom version > of CP/M called OS8MT and came with a few different software packages. > They were made around 1984 I think. If they're 5.25" diskettes (the only place I looked), all I've got in the archive is the Monroe System 2000. My notes say that this is basically a CP/M-86 machine. If it's a 3.5" diskette, let me know and I'll look there. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 2 11:59:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? In-Reply-To: <490CDE20.5060700@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 1, 8 05:54:24 pm Message-ID: > > So waht I am looking for is a source of small UNC nuts and bolts in > > reasonable quantites. 'Small' means 4-40, 6-32 and 8-32. I would be > > looking for countersunk and pan head scewws, nuts, lockwashers, etc. > > 'Reasonable quantities' would be a bag of 100. These are not at all > > common in the UK, we tend to use BA (older machines) or metric (M3/M4 > > sizes). > > Hmm, try Mackay's in Cambridge (01223 517000) - they're an engineering firm Having worked in Cambrdige for a few years, I know Mackay's... Very useful. But I didn't think they sold small UNC stuff. > Failing that, Apex Fasteners in Slough may be able to help (01753 525334) - Thanks, I'll give them a go. > the specialise in things like nuts and bolts, but it's been so long I don't > remember if they carry UNC stuff or not. > > If neither of those work (and nobody else can help), shout and I'll ask some > of the engineering types at Bletchley - I expect they'd know. I wouldn't be so sure. UNC is not a common thread on UK and European stuff. Model engieers over here either use BSW/BSF or the 'ME' thread. (incidentally, classic Meccano bolts are 5/32" BSW, I have no idea if the modern stuff is the same) Electrical stuff tends to use BA threads [1] if old or the common metric threads if new. [1] BA is, IMHO, a metric thread. 0BA is defindes as 0.23" diameter, 25.4 thread per inch. Or in other words, 6mm diameter, 1mm pitch. The only difference between 0BA nad M6 is the thread angle (60 degrees for M6, 47.5 degrees for 0BA). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 2 12:01:16 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:01:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK source of small UNC nuts and bolts? In-Reply-To: <001301c93cce$16bd6410$3400a8c0@xyleth.local> from "Mike Hatch" at Nov 2, 8 09:19:18 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > We use a local supplier here (North Hampshire, I believe they are in Yately) > who do small quantities of UNC type American screws, quite a bit of our > equipment is non metric. Can't remember the name but I can find out tomorrow > when I get back into work and post their details. They will do small (<100) > quantities, well they do for us anyway. Thanks. There's no real hurry, I've got a lot of electronic work to do on the Multiprogrammer before I need the screws to put it back together. I asusme this company will send stuff by post, there should be no real problem in sending a packet of nuts nad bolts... -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Nov 2 12:47:10 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:47:10 -0600 Subject: FS: PDP-8/L users handbook Message-ID: DEC PDP-8/L Users Handbook (1968). My father was the original owner and he wrote his name on the front cover in Magic Marker, and a couple of other scribbles here and there.Overall good shape. Pages are turning brownish like all old DEC publications do. $10 shipped within the US. Overseas pay actual shipping cost. Please contact me offlist if interested. thanks Charles From jeffj at panix.com Sun Nov 2 16:32:06 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:32:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: OmniProm programmer Message-ID: I'm trying to revive an EPROM programmer: the bottom label says Omni-Prom Programmer model OMNI-01 SherTek, Inc. Memphis, TN USA but the inner label says P/N OMNI05, V7.0, R0.0 (C) 1986, SherTek Inc. It has 28, 40 pin ZIF sockets on top, internal power supply. But the only interface is for the PC's parallel port so I'm unsure what protocol it uses to read back the results. I'm missing the floppy with OMNI.EXE the DOS program that ran it. The manual only documents the program menu, not the parallel port protocol. Any clues? -- jeffj at panix.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Nov 3 02:07:32 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:07:32 -0200 Subject: OmniProm programmer References: Message-ID: <081c01c93d8b$448b7b30$46fea8c0@DeskJara> This one? http://resume.robert.weathergreen.com/projects/omni-1.htm Maybe the omnipro II program will work? http://www.dataman.com/Webpages/SoftwareDownloads.aspx?PN=Omni+Pro+II&SH=Omni+Pro+II&IAK=1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Jonas" To: "cctech" Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:32 PM Subject: OmniProm programmer > I'm trying to revive an EPROM programmer: > > the bottom label says > Omni-Prom Programmer > model OMNI-01 > > SherTek, Inc. > Memphis, TN USA > > but the inner label says > P/N OMNI05, V7.0, R0.0 > (C) 1986, SherTek Inc. > > It has 28, 40 pin ZIF sockets on top, > internal power supply. > But the only interface is for the PC's parallel port > so I'm unsure what protocol it uses > to read back the results. > > I'm missing the floppy with OMNI.EXE > the DOS program that ran it. > The manual only documents the program menu, > not the parallel port protocol. > > Any clues? > -- jeffj at panix.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1763 - Release Date: 2/11/2008 19:08 From paul at frixxon.co.uk Mon Nov 3 06:03:49 2008 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:03:49 -0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real terminals in the wild! I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? And here's a reminder that I still have a bunch of terminals left; see my previous email for details. The later DEC ones have gone but there are at least 20 Wyse WY-420 terminals available, which have (I believe) a competent VT320 emulation. These are for pickup only from here in Crawley, West Sussex. From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Nov 3 07:44:35 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:44:35 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490F0043.2050704@update.uu.se> > it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, > would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? > I live in sweden so I will be unable to pick it up. But I would be more than willing to pay for shipment to sweden. I should also let you know that these machines can be quite valuable on the second hand market. Kind Regards, Pontus From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Nov 3 09:14:09 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:14:09 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490F1541.9090504@gjcp.net> paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very > pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real terminals > in the wild! > > I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that > someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this > because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single > heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume > it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, > would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? I'd love to pick it up! However, you'd be far better off sticking it on eBay and then buying your SO something nice to make up for the house full of old computers... Seriously - grab it, they're worth something these days. Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 3 09:16:28 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:16:28 -0500 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3698CACC-9CF3-4764-B7B6-265CF28A9F43@neurotica.com> On Nov 1, 2008, at 3:07 PM, Richard wrote: >> Hey folks. I'm looking for schematics for the Lear Siegler ADM-5 >> terminal. I don't see anything related on Bitsavers, which surprises >> me. Would anyone have this handy? >> > > I believe its similar to the ADM-3. The maintenance manual for the > AMD-3 is online here: I will give that a shot, thanks for the pointer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Nov 3 10:28:12 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:28:12 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081103172812.6ebdf9c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Paxton Hoag wrote: > I have a card set and backplane saved from a machine that went to > scrap, nothing else. It is lost in my container. Are you willing to dig it up and sell it? If you mind shipping it to .de - I might have a contact at hand in the states where it could be shipped to. Grettings, Oliver -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Nov 3 11:16:20 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:16:20 -0000 Subject: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: Message-ID: <001501c93dd7$e4613a90$961ca8c0@mss.local> Paul, I'm just up the road from you in Aldershot, Hampshire. YES PLEASE GRAB IT, I can pick up within days. As an aside to your terminals, I have a 32 user unix system that could go with some of the terminals, might make it a package for someone. I'll get the make and model tonight. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very > pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real terminals > in the wild! > > I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that > someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this > because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single > heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume > it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, > would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? > > And here's a reminder that I still have a bunch of terminals left; see my > previous email for details. The later DEC ones have gone but there are at > least 20 Wyse WY-420 terminals available, which have (I believe) a > competent VT320 emulation. These are for pickup only from here in Crawley, > West Sussex. > > > > From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Nov 3 11:23:46 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:23:46 -0600 Subject: Core Beads (was Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core) In-Reply-To: <49097B6C.19217.75364B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4>, <4909B600.6000606@ubanproductions.com> <49097B6C.19217.75364B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: For logic use, do you need square loop material or transformer-type (low hysteresis) material? The latter is readily available in a multitude of sizes. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Core Beads (was Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core) On 30 Oct 2008 at 8:26, Tom Uban wrote: > For the person who was looking for core memory beads, I > noticed a few boxes of them while searching eBay for core > memory stuff... 'Twas I. Not the teeny core memory beads, but larger hard ferrite toroids usable for magnetic core logic use; i.e. the ability to put several windings on a core. FWIW, In my desk drawer, along with some other arcane stuff,I've got a frame from what I believe was an old Philco system. Much larger and much much less dense than the "40K" module shown. Still, the cores are way too small for what I'd need. Cheers, Chuck From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Nov 3 11:27:30 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:27:30 -0000 Subject: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: Message-ID: <000301c93dd9$73d33970$961ca8c0@mss.local> Hi, I should have added that I'm currently bidding on a PDP8 hardware manual on Epay, so if the 2 came together it would be just fantastic !. Many thanks and best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very > pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real terminals > in the wild! > > I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that > someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this > because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single > heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume > it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, > would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? > > And here's a reminder that I still have a bunch of terminals left; see my > previous email for details. The later DEC ones have gone but there are at > least 20 Wyse WY-420 terminals available, which have (I believe) a > competent VT320 emulation. These are for pickup only from here in Crawley, > West Sussex. > > > > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 11:31:45 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:31:45 -0800 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081103172812.6ebdf9c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081031214357.f4217a29.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081103172812.6ebdf9c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: >> I have a card set and backplane saved from a machine that went to >> scrap, nothing else. It is lost in my container. > > Are you willing to dig it up and sell it? If you mind shipping it to .de > - I might have a contact at hand in the states where it could be shipped > to. I would be willing to part with it but finding it in the container is much more difficult. It will probably be next spring before I could dig that deep into into the container to find it. Unless I could find a space in Astoria for a computer museum. That way I could unpack the container. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Nov 3 13:43:57 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:43:57 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561444d74636eb1c252997dc8e2e5c34@mac.com> On 3 Nov 2008, at 12:03, paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > > I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that > someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. Where is your work skip, i might try and have a peek in it one day.. I'm down the road in Pease pottage. The place, not the soup Roger From ball.of.john at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 14:26:46 2008 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:26:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <200811031800.mA3I053c042061@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811031800.mA3I053c042061@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <490F5E86.6010109@gmail.com> >Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very >pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real terminals >in the wild! > >I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that >someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this >because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single >heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume >it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, >would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? Oh man, I am really interested but I really wish I didn't live in Western Canada ;_; If I knew someone close to you I would ask them to pick it up for me and then ship it in chunks but even then it would still be expensive. From alanp at snowmoose.com Mon Nov 3 15:11:42 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:11:42 -0800 Subject: Looking for a front panel fastener for a DEC SA482 rack Message-ID: <490F690E.2040304@snowmoose.com> As the subject says ... I am looking for one of the fasteners that holds on the front panel of a DEC SA482 rack. It is a Dzus-like head stud, except that it is turned with a 4mm hex key. Anyone have one or know where I can get one? alan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Nov 3 17:12:13 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:12:13 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490F854D.3080901@gifford.co.uk> paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that > someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this > because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single > heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume > it's the processor itself. Just be aware that PDP-8 cases were sold in the 1980s in the UK by Display Electronics. They were empty of all the PDP-8 internals, and intended as cases for your homebrew microcomputer. I think they were originally used by Reuters, when they had PDP-8 boards in them. A friend of mine had one, which he used as a case for his Apple ][. I expect he still hs it. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 3 19:58:33 2008 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:58:33 -0500 Subject: URGENT: Computers & parts needing home - New Haven CT Message-ID: <490FAC49.7000104@sbcglobal.net> It's moving time, and for various reasons I need to get rid of a few items: DEC Multia 166 MHz Alpha workstation, not sure what CPU. Apple PowerBook150c Cardinal 386 computer. All in one case, like a Mac SE/30 2 external CD drives, SCSI, with carts various 72 pin SIMMS, some parity, some other 30 pin SIMMS 2 PS/2 keyboards various cables. First come, first served; take it all in one shot, it's free. If you feel this pile is worth something, I won't turn down cash or good beer. If you want to disperse the items to others, that is your choice. If you do make a profit, great! Enjoy it. I just need this stuff to disappear by Thursday, Nov. 13. I tried to give some of these things away before, but the recipient never got back to me about something. Let me know ASAP. Thanks very much -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Nov 3 20:53:08 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:53:08 -0500 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 Message-ID: Does anyone know of any computers based on the Fairchild 9440 / 9445 cpu? Rob ps. Google wasn't being my friend. Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 3 21:18:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:18:31 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490F4E87.25804.A0354B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2008 at 21:53, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Does anyone know of any computers based on the Fairchild 9440 / 9445 > cpu? That'd be the Fairchild LSI version of the DG Nova (more or less) right? ISTR that, like the TI I2L version of the 9900, sales were pretty much in the defense racket. I recall (long ago) trying to get a Fairchild sales rep to talk to me about the 9440 and getting nowhere. Perhaps some of our military computer specialists may know of an application. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 3 22:15:54 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:15:54 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 References: Message-ID: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > > Does anyone know of any computers based on the Fairchild 9440 / 9445 > cpu? > > ps. Google wasn't being my friend. Can't help with an answer, but thanks for the question: I had never heard of these before. Pulled out the 1982 IC Master and found some description of them and some support chips. The support chips are marked "Preliminary" or with pending availability dates at that time. Amazing, I'm wondering whether it's another instance of Fairchild missing the boat in the microproc era, or, as Chuck is suggesting, they were high-end enough that they were limited to the military market. From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Nov 4 02:56:06 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:56:06 -0000 Subject: [personal]terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <001501c93dd7$e4613a90$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <004101c93e5b$2cd06250$961ca8c0@mss.local> Should anyone want it, the system is a PCS CadMus 9200, 200Mb drive, 32 user, Unix, with 1 terminal a Kienzle system 9000 type 122. Was working the last time I fired it up and I have the master password as well. Mike. Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hatch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > Paul, > > I'm just up the road from you in Aldershot, Hampshire. > YES PLEASE GRAB IT, I can pick up within days. > > As an aside to your terminals, I have a 32 user unix system that could go > with some of the terminals, might make it a package for someone. I'll get > the make and model tonight. > > Best regards, > Mike Hatch > > Web - www.soemtron.org > Email - mike at soemtron.org > > Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:03 PM > Subject: [personal] PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > > >> Thanks to Martin for grabbing 14 DEC terminals from me last week -- very >> pleasant to meet someone who is still working with PDPs and real >> terminals >> in the wild! >> >> I've just passed our waste electrical skip at work and noticed that >> someone has dumped a PDP-8/e box in there. I'm being imprecise about this >> because I've never seen one before. This isn't a big rack, just a single >> heavy box fronted by an orange and brown PDP-8/e front panel. I assume >> it's the processor itself. If I can chuck this in my car this evening, >> would anyone here be able to pick it up from me by the end of this month? >> >> And here's a reminder that I still have a bunch of terminals left; see my >> previous email for details. The later DEC ones have gone but there are at >> least 20 Wyse WY-420 terminals available, which have (I believe) a >> competent VT320 emulation. These are for pickup only from here in >> Crawley, >> West Sussex. >> >> >> >> > > > > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Nov 4 04:51:14 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:51:14 -0500 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Amazing, I'm wondering whether it's another instance of Fairchild > missing the > boat in the microproc era, or, as Chuck is suggesting, they were > high-end > enough that they were limited to the military market Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). If your wondering, I was looking for information on a Strobe Data Hawk board and happen to go the the simulogics web site. The have a product called reNOVAte which happens to emulate the Strobe Data board and the 9440 / 9445 Microprocessor. Having never heard of that micro, the hunt was on. Don't you love these little distractions? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Nov 4 10:15:36 2008 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:15:36 -0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> It appears that I'm the only person on this list who doesn't want a PDP-8/E! Thanks for all the responses -- too many to respond to individually. I managed to get the PDP-8/E in my car yesterday, with a bit of huffing and puffing. A new home has now been found for it, where I am told it will be put on display at least annually. I was surprised that I didn't know that we had one on site before it was disposed of because I'm always hunting around the labs for interesting kit. It appears to have been part of some automated test equipment made by GenRad. There were GenRad boxes in the skip and the 8/E has some "General Radio" stickers on it. This morning, I've found two PDP-8/M boxes. One of them is populated, and the other one appears to be almost empty (so it's now just a pretty front panel, or a source of switches for repairing the other one). I've put some photos of the 8/E and the two 8/Ms on a web site. I was going to do the flickr thing but I'm trying to do real work as well, so I apologise for the pics being uncropped and rather large. http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/ You'll see two pictures of my storage unit as it was at lunchtime. This needs to be clear by the end of the month. Eek! If you'd like either or both of the 8/Ms (bearing in mind, as I said, that only one of them has any boards in), make me an offer. You will have to come and collect them from Crawley, so please don't ask me to ship them. From andy.piercy at gmail.com Tue Nov 4 11:09:35 2008 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:09:35 +0000 Subject: Space Invaders In-Reply-To: <49059168.9090607@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49059168.9090607@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Peter, I have a missile command table top console if that would help? Ta, Andy Piercy 2008/10/27 Pete Turnbull : > Does anybody in the UK have a classic Space Invaders console? I'm looking > for one to borrow for a short while for a TV program. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 4 11:11:32 2008 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:11:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Epox EP-9NPA+SLI MB manual Message-ID: <49108244.6010703@sbcglobal.net> If anyone has the user manual for the Epox EP-9NPA+SLI motherboard, could you do me a small favor and email it to me? Searching around with Google is of no help, and the Epox websites don't seem to have it. Trying to resusitate my Ubuntu 8.04 box with this MB. The caps on the old board leaked.... The zip archive of it in archive.org appears to be corrupted... Thanks in advance... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 4 11:11:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4910822D.6010707@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > > Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 > > and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). Looks at link ... and what do you know -- ebay stuff listed too. A old 8080A chip ... $25 sigh... A few 8 bit micros and the 40K core memory stack is going for about $500 so far. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Nov 4 11:24:02 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:24:02 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > > I've put some photos of the 8/E and the two 8/Ms on a web site. I was > going to do the flickr thing but I'm trying to do real work as well, so I > apologise for the pics being uncropped and rather large. > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/ > > You'll see two pictures of my storage unit as it was at lunchtime. This > needs to be clear by the end of the month. Eek! > Immediate smelling salts for all of the classiccmp readers who just passed out in a combination of shock and jealousy! From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Nov 4 11:37:04 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 18:37:04 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49108840.4010601@update.uu.se> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > >> I've put some photos of the 8/E and the two 8/Ms on a web site. I was >> going to do the flickr thing but I'm trying to do real work as well, so I >> apologise for the pics being uncropped and rather large. >> >> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/ >> >> You'll see two pictures of my storage unit as it was at lunchtime. This >> needs to be clear by the end of the month. Eek! >> >> > > Immediate smelling salts for all of the classiccmp readers > who just passed out in a combination of shock and jealousy! > > I you only knew :) I've made some finds in the local trashcan, but three eights? that is awesome, in the original meaning of the word. /P From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 4 12:08:51 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 11:08:51 -0700 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <49108FB3.6060108@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > > Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 > > and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). > Nice chips ... fast too! From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 4 12:14:41 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 18:14:41 -0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: > This morning, I've found two PDP-8/M boxes. One of them is populated, > and the other one appears to be almost empty (so it's now just a > pretty front panel, or a source of switches for repairing the other > one). Umm. That's not a skip - it's clearly a gold mine! I would have thought the two 8/m boxes would pay for that storage unit for a further month or two ... Keep digging: a PDP-6 would probably pay for a new car :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 4 12:50:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 10:50:15 -0800 Subject: Fairchild 944x Message-ID: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2008 at 5:51, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 > > and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). 1983? I was trying to get the attention of the Fairchild sales department around 1978. You'd have thought with DG not selling the MicroNova CPU to outside customers and the 9440 being a Nova-like chip that Fairchild could have cleaned up. There weren't many other 16-bit chips at the time (e.g. NS PACE, GI CP1600, TI TMS9900). But Fairchild seemed not to be interested in selling the stuff. My understanding is that the 9440 is an "almost" Nova in that it lacks certain features needed to run Nova software. Can anyone verify this? Cheers, Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Nov 4 13:21:09 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:21:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> Message-ID: From: Antonio Carlini Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:15 AM > paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: >> This morning, I've found two PDP-8/M boxes. One of them is populated, >> and the other one appears to be almost empty (so it's now just a >> pretty front panel, or a source of switches for repairing the other >> one). > Umm. That's not a skip - it's clearly a gold mine! > I would have thought the two 8/m boxes would pay for that storage unit > for a further month or two ... > Keep digging: a PDP-6 would probably pay for a new car :-) Trust me on this: It would pay for a lot more than a new car! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 4 13:39:34 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 11:39:34 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > > On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > Amazing, I'm wondering whether it's another instance of Fairchild > > missing the > > boat in the microproc era, or, as Chuck is suggesting, they were > > high-end > > enough that they were limited to the military market > > Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 > > and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). > > If your wondering, I was looking for information on a Strobe Data Hawk > board and happen to go the the simulogics web site. The have a > product called reNOVAte which happens to emulate the Strobe Data board > and the 9440 / 9445 Microprocessor. Having never heard of that micro, > the hunt was on. > > Don't you love these little distractions? Just to put some dates on it, looking more closely at the IC Master I have here, the 9440 is stated to have been available in early 1978, while the 9445 followed in late 1980. So the 9440 was successful enough that Fairchild saw fit to produce the 9445 follow-on. In that datasheet from bitsavers there are schematics (pg29-32) for a full switches-and-blinkenlights front panel for the 9445! Funny to see that for a microproc in 1982, presumably some legacy from the minicomputer origins. -- I haven't looked into it in depth but it has been a point of interest to me as to how Fairchild fell from grace in the 1980s: failing to produce a strong contender in the microproc arena?, betting the farm on the wrong technology (high-performance bipolar/I3L instead of CMOS?, too focussed on the high-end military market?, too much brain drain to other companies? ... The counterpoint is how Motorola has managed to adapt and stay on the forefront of technology since it's inception producing car radios in the 1920's. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Nov 4 14:16:29 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga 1000, Atari 520 ST, TRS-80 & Timex 1000 in NY Message-ID: <640862.85539.qm@web110507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am not selling, I found and am posting. I figured someone would be interested http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/sys/905721821.html For sale: Vintage computers.. (Ditmars/Astoria) Reply to: sale-905721821 at craigslist.org [?] Date: 2008-11-04, 2:57PM EST For sale I have the following computers.. -Amiga 1000 with mouse, monitor and kickstart/workbench disks (A1000 is refurbished to a nice white, but monitor is aged/yellowed) 100$ -Amiga software packages (Comic Setter, Professional Draw, TV Text) 30$ -Atari 520 STFM (Desert Camouflage custom painted, 360kb internal drive, 1/2 mb ram, no mouse) 45$ -TRS-80 Color Computer 2 (16kb ram) 35$ -TRS-80 Color Computer 2 (64kb ram) 35$ -Timex 1000 with manual in its original box (has a problem at display - probably a bad capacitor or a loose connection) 30$. Pickup only in Ditmars/Astoria. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 4 15:13:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:13:37 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49104A81.5527.DDB9079@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2008 at 11:39, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I haven't looked into it in depth but it has been a point of interest to me as > to how Fairchild fell from grace in the 1980s: failing to produce a strong > contender in the microproc arena?, betting the farm on the wrong technology > (high-performance bipolar/I3L instead of CMOS?, too focussed on the high-end > military market?, too much brain drain to other companies? ... I don't think that was exclusively the case. Anyone remember the Fairchild F8? Around the same time as the 9440, the F8 was hugely popular in embedded type applications. The "Channel F" game console and the Video Brain used them. But Fairchild took the product nowhere after that. A very puzzling company, Fairchild. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 4 15:49:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:49:05 -0800 Subject: Fairchild 944x In-Reply-To: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com> References: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4910C351.3020707@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You'd have thought with DG not selling the MicroNova CPU to outside customers They tried to sell it, they just weren't good at it. They didn't want small customers, though they did send me the data sheets and such. They wanted big customers, but they didn't want big customers that would produce general-purpose computers that would compete with low-end Nova minis. I suppose they just wanted embedded designs, but everyone was using the 8080, 6800, etc. for those. For most embedded systems there was no obvious benefit to using a slow, expensive MicroNova instead. DEC wasn't much better at selling their microprocessors either. They got few outside design wins for the T11 and J11 processors, and the pricing wasn't competitive. Same thing years later with the Alpha. The marketing people bragged about how it outperformed the x86 and that the whole world would move to Alpha, but the price/performance ratio was substantially worse than that of the x86, so the only significant external design wins were for specialized systems that needed the highest possible uniprocessor performance. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 4 15:49:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:49:09 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 Message-ID: <4910C355.2090509@bitsavers.org> > A very puzzling company, Fairchild. And the Clipper.. They waited too long to get into CMOS, since they were making tons of money on ECL and bipolar. AMD also blew it in waiting too long to convert the 2900 product line to CMOS. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 4 16:29:27 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:29:27 -0800 Subject: Fairchild 944x In-Reply-To: <4910C351.3020707@brouhaha.com> References: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com>, <4910C351.3020707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <49105C47.13084.E210012@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2008 at 13:49, Eric Smith wrote: > They tried to sell it, they just weren't good at it. They didn't want > small customers, though they did send me the data sheets and such. They > wanted big customers, but they didn't want big customers that would > produce general-purpose computers that would compete with low-end Nova > minis. Contrast that with the sales approach by Intel, who would sell to you if they could hear the sound of change jingling in your pocket. I could count on regular phone calls, literature and free lunches by the local Intel sales guy--and we were definitely small potatoes. I think Intel understood the idea of an architectural "lock-in" better than DG or DEC, who apparently didn't think that principle applied to microprocessors. That Intel support meant a lot--you could get samples of just about anything and expect an applications engineer to return your calls. It wasn't that Intel had the best products out--it was that they made you feel important and did their best not to let you fail. OTOH, National, with some very good product offerings generally wasn't trusted for much more than commodity TTL and linear, unless it was as a second source for someone else's products that you were already using. Just goes to show that "if you build it, they will come" doesn't always hold true. Cheers, Chuck From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Nov 4 16:40:30 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:40:30 -0600 Subject: Fairchild 944x In-Reply-To: <49105C47.13084.E210012@cclist.sydex.com> References: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com>, <4910C351.3020707@brouhaha.com> <49105C47.13084.E210012@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >Contrast that with the sales approach by Intel, who would sell to you >if they could hear the sound of change jingling in your pocket. I >could count on regular phone calls, literature and free lunches by >the local Intel sales guy--and we were definitely small potatoes. I >think Intel understood the idea of an architectural "lock-in" better >than DG or DEC, who apparently didn't think that principle applied to >microprocessors. I don't know about DG, but I think that DEC had more basic issues than lack of understanding of "lock-in". Come to think of it, they did understand that well enough -- for computers, not chips. DEC had microprocessors all right, but they were really just a way to build computers. (The T11 is perhaps an exception; I sometimes wonder how that came about.) So they made plenty of use of them internally, but the notion of selling them to outsiders just didn't compute. Another consideration is that DEC didn't take sales seriously in any setting -- witness the fact that they had the only sales force in recorded history that wasn't paid commission. As for the lack of success of Alpha in competing with x86, the above are good reasons, and another one would be the fact that by then it was too late for a new general purpose architecture. Now if Alpha had been positioned as an embedded architecture, it might have succeeded (taking from MIPS) -- except that it probably was too fast for most embedded applications. paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 4 17:13:22 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:13:22 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 References: , <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <49104A81.5527.DDB9079@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4910D711.4F4403DE@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4 Nov 2008 at 11:39, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I haven't looked into it in depth but it has been a point of interest to me as > > to how Fairchild fell from grace in the 1980s: failing to produce a strong > > contender in the microproc arena?, betting the farm on the wrong technology > > (high-performance bipolar/I3L instead of CMOS?, too focussed on the high-end > > military market?, too much brain drain to other companies? ... > > I don't think that was exclusively the case. Anyone remember the > Fairchild F8? Around the same time as the 9440, the F8 was hugely > popular in embedded type applications. The "Channel F" game console > and the Video Brain used them. > > But Fairchild took the product nowhere after that. A very puzzling > company, Fairchild. No - I wasn't forgetting the F8. It was an interesting architecture in the way the functional units were spread around the physical chips. Seemed very tortured when I first saw it, until I understood how it could be useful for economically efficient embedded systems. They were off to a good start in that regard in the early 70s. Interesting to speculate whether the architecture could have grown and been carried into the future to contend in the marketplace occupied by PICs,etc. today, but I'm not familiar enough with it in depth to say. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 4 17:56:07 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:56:07 -0700 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Robert Borsuk wrote: > >> On Nov 3, 2008, at 11:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> >>> Amazing, I'm wondering whether it's another instance of Fairchild >>> missing the >>> boat in the microproc era, or, as Chuck is suggesting, they were >>> high-end >>> enough that they were limited to the military market >>> >> Don't know if you guys found this but I did find one computer reference. >> >> http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=196 >> >> and the data sheet on bit savers for the chips(thank you Al). >> >> If your wondering, I was looking for information on a Strobe Data Hawk >> board and happen to go the the simulogics web site. The have a >> product called reNOVAte which happens to emulate the Strobe Data board >> and the 9440 / 9445 Microprocessor. Having never heard of that micro, >> the hunt was on. >> >> Don't you love these little distractions? >> > > Just to put some dates on it, looking more closely at the IC Master I have > here, the 9440 is stated to have been available in early 1978, while the 9445 > followed in late 1980. So the 9440 was successful enough that Fairchild saw fit > to produce the 9445 follow-on. > > In that datasheet from bitsavers there are schematics (pg29-32) for a full > switches-and-blinkenlights front panel for the 9445! Funny to see that for a > microproc in 1982, presumably some legacy from the minicomputer origins. > > -- > > I haven't looked into it in depth but it has been a point of interest to me as > to how Fairchild fell from grace in the 1980s: failing to produce a strong > contender in the microproc arena?, betting the farm on the wrong technology > (high-performance bipolar/I3L instead of CMOS?, too focussed on the high-end > military market?, too much brain drain to other companies? ... > > The counterpoint is how Motorola has managed to adapt and stay on the forefront > of technology since it's inception producing car radios in the 1920's. > > but since MAC no longers use a 68000 style cpu, you just have NO-Comment cpu clones for buggy computer designs. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 4 17:59:13 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:59:13 -0700 Subject: Fairchild 944x In-Reply-To: <49105C47.13084.E210012@cclist.sydex.com> References: <491028E7.27407.D585749@cclist.sydex.com>, <4910C351.3020707@brouhaha.com> <49105C47.13084.E210012@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4910E1D1.4050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just goes to show that "if you build it, they will come" doesn't > always hold true. > > It is true ... the long line of mice, waiting to test the better mouse trap. :) > Cheers, > Chuck > > From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Nov 4 20:26:06 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 18:26:06 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:56 PM > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I haven't looked into it in depth but it has been a point of interest to me >> as to how Fairchild fell from grace in the 1980s: failing to produce a >> strong contender in the microproc arena?, betting the farm on the wrong >> technology (high-performance bipolar/I3L instead of CMOS?, too focussed on >> the high-end military market?, too much brain drain to other companies? ... >> The counterpoint is how Motorola has managed to adapt and stay on the >> forefront of technology since it's inception producing car radios in the >> 1920's. > but since MAC no longers use a 68000 style cpu, you just have NO-Comment cpu > clones for buggy computer designs. It's been longer since Macs used 68K processors than the amount of time that they did (1984-1995 vs. 1995-2008). Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 4 21:42:46 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:42:46 -0500 Subject: VAXstations Message-ID: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> I have some VAXstations available for those that are interested... 1 x VAXstation 3100 (M30) 1 x VAXstation 4100 (M40) missing 'door' for front bays 2 x VAXstation 3100 M38 2 x VAXstation 3100 M76 all have 8 plane graphics except for the M30 (or was it the M40?). all have 8M of RAM. Other than the 4100 and one M38, these systems are in excellent cosmetic condition (may require some cleaning). The M40 has plastic 'issues' (missing front bay door, some hidden cracks), and an M76 has a 2" scratch in the top. One of the M38's top doesn't look like it fits as good as on the other M38 and is a bit more dinged up. Other than that and that most require some cleaning, they are in excellent condition. Systems do not have hard drives. I do have 1G and 2G 50 pin SCSI drives available though (non DEC). Add 1G drives at $10 each, Add 2G drives at $15 each. If you are interested in a specific one, please make an offer. I'll likely be listing these on eBay depending on interest here. Buyer will be actual shipping plus $5 to cover packing materials. -- Curt From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 4 22:05:50 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:05:50 -0700 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > It's been longer since Macs used 68K processors than the amount of time that > they did (1984-1995 vs. 1995-2008). > > That is why I said 68000 style of cpu. I just am grumbling at the LAST mac design. IT is too bad APPLE had pick the low end stuff for consumer products. I don't know of any well designed computers, but then I never got into UNIX workstations. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Nov 4 06:43:11 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:43:11 +0100 Subject: [personal]terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <004101c93e5b$2cd06250$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <001501c93dd7$e4613a90$961ca8c0@mss.local> <004101c93e5b$2cd06250$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4910435F.1080005@iais.fraunhofer.de> Mike Hatch schrieb: > Should anyone want it, the system is a PCS CadMus 9200, 200Mb drive, 32 > user, Unix, with 1 terminal a Kienzle system 9000 type 122. > Was working the last time I fired it up and I have the master password as > well. Rings a bell for me. I wrote my diploma thesis in '87 on a PCS Cadmus. A nice 68010 based SYSV Unix system, using QBUS cards. We had a 16-MUX terminal card connected and as many (Tatung) terminals, and this system was still reasonably operable (which is nowadays an impossible mission for contemporary hardware with three magnitudes more computing power). Unfortunately, you are too far away for me. -- Holger From dsnyder at corefurnace.com Tue Nov 4 09:01:40 2008 From: dsnyder at corefurnace.com (Snyder Dan) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 10:01:40 -0500 Subject: Vaxstation 3100 M76 Parts request Message-ID: <93ACAE2F49E45749818DC3D494AA311E013884B2@cfs-svr-02.corefurnace.local> I recently acquired a Vaxstation 3100 M76, it's missing a few parts. Does anyone have a couple of drive brackets, 4M simms (x4) and maybe a GPX or SPX card? I am willing to pay. TIA, Dan Snyder From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Nov 5 01:27:27 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 08:27:27 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> >> Keep digging: a PDP-6 would probably pay for a new car :-) >> > > Trust me on this: It would pay for a lot more than a new car! > > I guess this has been discussed to death in other places(and here to), but given the knowledgeable readers of this list, I'm just to curious not to ask. How many linc-8, PDP-7 and PDP-9 survived? I've only seen one of each, and only one in the flesh so to speak. Do they carry any value? or are they simply to large for the general computer affectionado? Cheers, Pontus From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Nov 5 04:10:17 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:10:17 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Anyone heard any more about this 8 in Sussex, no reply from the topic starter. I can only answer for the PDP-7, as far as we know only 2 PDP-7's survived, with a rumour that there might be a third in Australia. One is here - http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/dec/pdp7/agi/ Second is here - http://cc.uoregon.edu/cnews/fall2001/pdp7.html - this has been decommissioned and moved to a museum, where escapes me for the moment. We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of the 120 built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Regards, Mike Hatch Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pontus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:27 AM Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > >>> Keep digging: a PDP-6 would probably pay for a new car :-) >>> >> >> Trust me on this: It would pay for a lot more than a new car! >> >> > > I guess this has been discussed to death in other places(and here to), > but given the knowledgeable readers of this list, I'm just to curious > not to ask. > > How many linc-8, PDP-7 and PDP-9 survived? I've only seen one of each, > and only one in the flesh so to speak. Do they carry any value? or are > they simply to large for the general computer affectionado? > > Cheers, > Pontus > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Nov 5 04:20:45 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:20:45 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: <004001c93f30$2a656d00$961ca8c0@mss.local> So who was the lucky recipient ? Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > It appears that I'm the only person on this list who doesn't want a > PDP-8/E! Thanks for all the responses -- too many to respond to > individually. I managed to get the PDP-8/E in my car yesterday, with a bit > of huffing and puffing. A new home has now been found for it, where I am > told it will be put on display at least annually. > > I was surprised that I didn't know that we had one on site before it was > disposed of because I'm always hunting around the labs for interesting > kit. It appears to have been part of some automated test equipment made by > GenRad. There were GenRad boxes in the skip and the 8/E has some "General > Radio" stickers on it. > > This morning, I've found two PDP-8/M boxes. One of them is populated, and > the other one appears to be almost empty (so it's now just a pretty front > panel, or a source of switches for repairing the other one). > > I've put some photos of the 8/E and the two 8/Ms on a web site. I was > going to do the flickr thing but I'm trying to do real work as well, so I > apologise for the pics being uncropped and rather large. > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/ > > You'll see two pictures of my storage unit as it was at lunchtime. This > needs to be clear by the end of the month. Eek! > > If you'd like either or both of the 8/Ms (bearing in mind, as I said, that > only one of them has any boards in), make me an offer. You will have to > come and collect them from Crawley, so please don't ask me to ship them. > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 5 09:10:34 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:10:34 +0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <004001c93f30$2a656d00$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <004001c93f30$2a656d00$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4911B76A.7020803@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/11/2008 10:20, Mike Hatch wrote: > So who was the lucky recipient ? Me :-) I need to make arrangements to pick it up and bring it to York, which won't be immediately, and then I need to find time to clean it up, make sure everything works, and then inevitably fix the parts that don't. I don't even know for sure what boards are in it yet, but it would be nice to get some sort of mass storage on it (RX02 would do, if I can find a controller) and run an O/S for demonstrations. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 5 10:05:49 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 08:05:49 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > That is why I said 68000 style of cpu. Other than the Freescale (Motorola) Coldfire series, and the Hitachi HD63000 (which I'm not certain actually shipped), I can't think of any CPUs that are "68000 style" but not actually members of the M68K family. If you're talking about the PowerPC, that's certainly not "68000 style" in any significant sense. There's little similarity beyond both being big-endian. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 5 10:11:00 2008 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:11:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) Message-ID: Hey all; I've been wanting to do some video capturing from an SGI and have been trying to work out the 'best way' (or, perhaps, the EASIEST way) of doing it. The video I'm capturing is prior to the OS coming up (waffling around the Command Monitor, etc), so I can't have the system itself help me out. If I had some LCD panels which spoke SGI I would simply sit a DV cam in front of the LCD and record it - the quality should be acceptable - but I don't (LCD since CRTs would have flicker, of course, when recorded). Plus, I'd quite like to source video from Suns and other machinery. I imagine there really -isn't- a catch-all solution, but I'd love to have the thoughts of the Geek Masses. I've never done video capture before in any form, and have little experience with working with video at all to be honest, so anything would help. Many thanks; - JP From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 5 10:24:36 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:24:36 +0000 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/11/2008 16:05, Eric Smith wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> That is why I said 68000 style of cpu. > Other than the Freescale (Motorola) Coldfire series, and the Hitachi > HD63000 (which I'm not certain actually shipped), I can't think of any > CPUs that are "68000 style" but not actually members of the M68K family. > > If you're talking about the PowerPC, that's certainly not "68000 style" > in any significant sense. There's little similarity beyond both being > big-endian. Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) (Well, apart from the 6502, of course, and, er, the VAX, and, well an ARM if configured the wrong way, and I suppose a PowerPC if configured bass-ackwards...) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 10:55:47 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:55:47 -0500 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0811050855m53eaa18n563135567e95d309@mail.gmail.com> If you have a sun or SGI that outputs somewhat normal VGA, you could use something like an Avermedia Quickplay to convert it to SVHS and record from there. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:11 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Hey all; > > I've been wanting to do some video capturing from an SGI and have been > trying to work out the 'best way' (or, perhaps, the EASIEST way) of doing > it. The video I'm capturing is prior to the OS coming up (waffling around > the Command Monitor, etc), so I can't have the system itself help me out. > > If I had some LCD panels which spoke SGI I would simply sit a DV cam in > front of the LCD and record it - the quality should be acceptable - but I > don't (LCD since CRTs would have flicker, of course, when recorded). Plus, > I'd quite like to source video from Suns and other machinery. > > I imagine there really -isn't- a catch-all solution, but I'd love to have > the thoughts of the Geek Masses. I've never done video capture before in > any form, and have little experience with working with video at all to be > honest, so anything would help. > > Many thanks; > > - JP > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 11:06:00 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:06:00 -0600 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4911D278.9050100@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) Someone really needs to design a 24-bit middle-endian CPU and settle that argument for good :-) From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 5 11:08:23 2008 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:08:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0811050855m53eaa18n563135567e95d309@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Jason McBrien wrote: > If you have a sun or SGI that outputs somewhat normal VGA, you could use > something like an Avermedia Quickplay to convert it to SVHS and record from > there. If they outputted standard SVGA I'd just use a standard LCD panel ;) Alas, no, the machines in question can only be relied upon to output standard SGI and standard Sun video. Thanks; - JP > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:11 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > > Hey all; > > > > I've been wanting to do some video capturing from an SGI and have been > > trying to work out the 'best way' (or, perhaps, the EASIEST way) of doing > > it. The video I'm capturing is prior to the OS coming up (waffling around > > the Command Monitor, etc), so I can't have the system itself help me out. > > > > If I had some LCD panels which spoke SGI I would simply sit a DV cam in > > front of the LCD and record it - the quality should be acceptable - but I > > don't (LCD since CRTs would have flicker, of course, when recorded). Plus, > > I'd quite like to source video from Suns and other machinery. > > > > I imagine there really -isn't- a catch-all solution, but I'd love to have > > the thoughts of the Geek Masses. I've never done video capture before in > > any form, and have little experience with working with video at all to be > > honest, so anything would help. > > > > Many thanks; > > > > - JP > > > > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 5 11:31:04 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:31:04 +0000 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/11/2008 17:08, JP Hindin wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Jason McBrien wrote: >> If you have a sun or SGI that outputs somewhat normal VGA, you could use >> something like an Avermedia Quickplay to convert it to SVHS and record from >> there. > > If they outputted standard SVGA I'd just use a standard LCD panel ;) > > Alas, no, the machines in question can only be relied upon to output > standard SGI and standard Sun video. What are they? Anything from an Indigo onwards can drive VGA or SVGA. I have an Indy and an O2 with LCD panels, and used to have a VGA monitor on an Indigo (so I expect my LCDs would work). An Indy even has an S-video o/p already (nitpick: SVHS is a tape format) though I've never tried using it without IRIX running. I've never used older SGIs than that but I thought if you got the right levels on the monitor sense pins on the ones with 13W3 connectors, they'd output at sensible rates with appropriate sync signals. Doesn't help if you only have 3 x BNC, of course; you'd at least have to construct a sync separator, but that's potentially just a one-chip stripboard design. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Wed Nov 5 12:43:36 2008 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:43:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <200811051800.mA5I0R6F077104@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811051800.mA5I0R6F077104@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: As I recall, the 944x series did away with the high order indirect bit just as the Xerox Alto did, thereby permitting full 16 bit addresses. I wonder what became of my data sheet... From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Nov 5 12:52:37 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:52:37 -0500 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 Message-ID: <4911A525020000370003FA5C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chuck asks: > Anyone remember the > Fairchild F8? Around the same time as the 9440, the F8 was hugely > popular in embedded type applications. Mostek's 3870, a derivative of the F8, was popular throughout all sorts of mass-produced products in the late 70's and through the 80's. STMicro had a chip that was very similar (clone? derivative?) of the 3870 that appeared in consumer products in the 90's. General Instruments certainly took a very similar microcontroller (now known as the PIC) and built it up and out in several directions. Tim. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 5 13:08:25 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:08:25 -0800 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: From: Mike Hatch Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:10 AM > From: "Pontus" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:27 AM >> How many linc-8, PDP-7 and PDP-9 survived? I've only seen one of each, >> and only one in the flesh so to speak. Do they carry any value? or are >> they simply to large for the general computer affectionado? > I can only answer for the PDP-7, as far as we know only 2 PDP-7's survived, > with a rumour that there might be a third in Australia. > One is here - http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/dec/pdp7/agi/ > Second is here - http://cc.uoregon.edu/cnews/fall2001/pdp7.html - this has > been decommissioned and moved to a museum, where escapes me for the moment. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of the 120 > built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html That would be us. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 5 14:16:53 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:16:53 -0500 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200811051516.54058.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 November 2008, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/11/2008 16:05, Eric Smith wrote: > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> That is why I said 68000 style of cpu. > > > > Other than the Freescale (Motorola) Coldfire series, and the > > Hitachi HD63000 (which I'm not certain actually shipped), I can't > > think of any CPUs that are "68000 style" but not actually members > > of the M68K family. > > > > If you're talking about the PowerPC, that's certainly not "68000 > > style" in any significant sense. There's little similarity beyond > > both being big-endian. > > Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) No. ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 5 15:22:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:22:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Nov 5, 8 08:27:27 am Message-ID: > I guess this has been discussed to death in other places(and here to), > but given the knowledgeable readers of this list, I'm just to curious > not to ask. > > How many linc-8, PDP-7 and PDP-9 survived? I've only seen one of each, > and only one in the flesh so to speak. Do they carry any value? or are > they simply to large for the general computer affectionado? What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer collecting? That is, what machines are : a) Not known not to exist any more -- so we exclude things like ENIAC where there's aboslutely no chance of finding an original b) Sufficiently uncommon to be a 'real find' It would appear form the above that the PDP7 and PDP9 qualifiy. I would add the PERQ 2T4, possibly the HP9831 (the Australian site claims they're very rare, but I am not totally convinced). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 5 15:18:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:18:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911D278.9050100@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 5, 8 11:06:00 am Message-ID: > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) > > Someone really needs to design a 24-bit middle-endian CPU and settle that > argument for good :-) I'm pretty sure you could get a PERQ 2T4 to behave like that if you were crazy enough about writing the microcode... The standard PERQ has 20 bit processor registers and 16 bit memory (at least as seen by the processor). You can read 'MDI' (Memory Data Input) which transfers the memory word into the low 16 bits of the CPU data path, or 'MDX' (Memory Data eXtended) which reads the bottom 4 bits of the memory into the top 4 bits of the data path (that is, bits 19..16). Now, the very ratre T4 has a 24 bit processor. I assume on that machine MDX reads the low byte of the memory into the top 8 bits (23...16) of the data path. Now, whether anyone wants to try wring an instruction set that makes it middle-endian is another matter... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 5 15:14:43 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 13:14:43 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911A525020000370003FA5C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <4911A525020000370003FA5C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <49119C43.4464.1302E54B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2008 at 13:52, Tim Shoppa wrote: > General Instruments certainly took a very similar microcontroller (now > known as the PIC) and built it up and out in several directions. Did GI ever do anything much with the 1640/1650 before spinning the micro division off as Microchip? Until the PIC micros were announced, I was only vaguely aware of it, only that GI did the 1640 as an I/O processor for the (miserably slow) 1600. GI did make use of the CP1600 in the Intellivision game boxes and (ISTR) a couple of set-top boxes for the cable trade. Another CPU with a nice architecture (aside from 10-bit instructions) that could have been a lot more, but wasn't. I think that one can see the same sort of thing happening now with the TI MSP430 uC. A nice architecture (resembles the CP1600 in a lot of ways, inclduing the absence of an inclusive-OR instruction), but TI seems to not be interested in promoting it or expanding capabilities. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 5 15:34:35 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081105133210.M46138@shell.lmi.net> > > Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) > Someone really needs to design a 24-bit middle-endian CPU and settle that > argument for good :-) People would still argue about the sequence for the other two "bytes". The only real solution would be massive redundancy, and have every word be symmetrical, which would require at least 32, 48, or 64 bits. Waitaminit! How about having a 1 bit word? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 5 16:15:15 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:15:15 -0700 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <20081105133210.M46138@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081105133210.M46138@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49121AF3.9010702@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > Waitaminit! How about having a 1 bit word? > > That was another Motorola chip I believe. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Nov 5 16:22:51 2008 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:22:51 +0100 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions Message-ID: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Collective wisdom, I need a terminal emulator for the DEC VT series of terminals, from VT200 upwards. This is to connect to an OpenVMS box running All-In-1, so it needs to support double width/height characters and be a fairly good emulation. Most 'vt compatible' terminals appear to not be up to the job. Does any one have any suggestions please? Even better if it supports soft font downloads so I can use APL aswell. I've got access to Windows and Linux boxes. Many thanks, Mark From ats at offog.org Wed Nov 5 16:26:15 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:26:15 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Wed\, 5 Nov 2008 21\:22\:37 +0000 \(GMT\)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > b) Sufficiently uncommon to be a 'real find' If you're willing to include micros, then the Kenbak-1 and Apple I are obvious candidates. There are also uncommon variants and prototypes of more common machines -- for example, the bbc-micro list has been discussing the Acorn A500 recently, which is pretty rare itself, but has an even rarer Tube-only variant. -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 16:53:25 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:53:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > collecting? Interesting question. Are we limited to production machines? For me, prototypes actually seem to hold more interest - it's fascinating to see how a prototype evolved into a final product (or how bits of it were re-used in other products), or to see from the various hardware hacks which bits the designers were having trouble making work. Oddball architectures appeal, too - parallel / multiprocessor systems, those which use a secondary processor for bootstrap / monitoring, those which use an uncommon CPU. Then there's graphics-heavy systems - I can always appreciate (and relate to) something with a lot of attached graphics hardware. I'm not too fussy I suppose - I don't tend to go after specific machines, but just see what shows up. Having said that I would *love* a Connection Machine CM2, although I probably wouldn't know what to do with it - but you can never had too many blinkenlights :-) Now that I have the space for it, I do really want to find something *big* to play with - not necessarily rare or anything, but a few cabinets of mini or mainframe would be fun to screw around with (maybe a PDP-11 and some storage / I/O would be nice, then I could perhaps understand what all the fuss is about DEC machines :-) cheers Jules From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Nov 5 16:54:51 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:54:51 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4912243B.3050000@update.uu.se> > > We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of > the 120 built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html I should have remembered that site, I've looked at it just some month ago. Anyway, do you have any more details on serial number 12. The words "Tek Hogskolan" sounds very Swedish (Tekniska H?gskolan). But there are a few of them, perhaps I should get my phone book out and do some investigation :) Regards, Pontus. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 5 17:02:47 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:02:47 -0600 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49122617.7080303@oldskool.org> JP Hindin wrote: > If I had some LCD panels which spoke SGI I would simply sit a DV cam in > front of the LCD and record it - the quality should be acceptable - but I > don't (LCD since CRTs would have flicker, of course, when recorded). Plus, > I'd quite like to source video from Suns and other machinery. LCDs don't flicker. CRTs don't either, as long as you can match your camera's shutter speed with the refresh rate of the CRT. While most consumer cams only have speeds of 1/60th, 1/100th, and some "sports" settings, more professional cameras have completely variable shutters where you can literally dial a 1/56th or 1/72nd shutter. > I imagine there really -isn't- a catch-all solution, but I'd love to have > the thoughts of the Geek Masses. I've never done video capture before in > any form, and have little experience with working with video at all to be > honest, so anything would help. Your best bet is a scan converter. For a prior video project (capturing pure 24-bit RGB from Amigas, no composite or Y/C as they weren't high-quality enough), I had to do a lot of research to find broadcast-quality scan converters that did what I wanted (ie. accept the 15KHz horizontal from the Amiga RGB port; most only do 31KHz and higher) and then watch ebay for an old model I could afford. From that point on, it was just a matter of finding a 25-pin D-shell (Amiga) to 15-pin VGA adapter, then using a VGA cable that split out to R, G, B, Hsync, Vsync on five BNC connectors, which went into the scan converter. The output of the scan converter was whatever I wanted: PAL or NTSC; YCrCb component or s-video or composite (ick) or VGA; etc. These are SGIs -- don't they have some sort of native video output, given their nature? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 5 17:03:56 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:03:56 -0600 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4912265C.8010509@oldskool.org> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Jason McBrien wrote: >> If you have a sun or SGI that outputs somewhat normal VGA, you could use >> something like an Avermedia Quickplay to convert it to SVHS and record from >> there. > > If they outputted standard SVGA I'd just use a standard LCD panel ;) > > Alas, no, the machines in question can only be relied upon to output > standard SGI and standard Sun video. Standard Sun video is just analog RGB, like VGA, right? If so, the scan converter advice I gave you earlier is valid as long as you build a connector that carries the R, G, B, Hsync, Vsync lines over. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 5 17:06:08 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:06:08 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> Tony Duell wrote: > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > collecting? Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft of any sort of software? If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 5 17:10:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081105150924.W51834@shell.lmi.net> > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > > collecting? On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft > of any sort of software? > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? Once you've tried a Sinclair as a doorstop, you'll never want to go back to Packard Bell or eMachines From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 17:14:51 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:14:51 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <491228EB.1080000@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer >> collecting? > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft > of any sort of software? > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? Collect enough and they do help save on heating bills - there's less free open space in your house to need heating :-) (It'd be interesting to do a poll on how many systems each of us here has, and how many hours a year each of those systems actually gets run for - I suspect the results would be quite disturbing!) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 5 17:16:55 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:16:55 -0800 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> References: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90811051516o53db428fi7d4338ddb21405ba@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 2:22 PM, wrote: > Collective wisdom, > > I need a terminal emulator for the DEC VT series of terminals, from VT200 upwards. This is to connect to an OpenVMS box running All-In-1, so it needs to support double width/height characters and be a fairly good emulation. Most 'vt compatible' terminals appear to not be up to the job. > > Does any one have any suggestions please? Even better if it supports soft font downloads so I can use APL aswell. > I use Kermit 95 2.1.3 to connect to PDP-11's and Vaxen. It's not free ($75) but there is a 20-day demo version you can try and see if you like it. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95demo.html I think I paid $5 for a shrink wrapped copy at Boeing Surplus a while back. Too bad I didn't buy all of the dozen or so copies they had at the time. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 5 17:17:12 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:17:12 -0800 Subject: Unsuccessful web site visit [was RE: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK] In-Reply-To: <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se> <002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: From: Mike Hatch Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:10 AM > We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of the 120 > built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html While I can get to the top page, I get a "Missing file" page when I try to retrieve anything--and the same page when I click on the "Report a problem" button on the Missing File page. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 5 17:54:23 2008 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 18:54:23 -0500 Subject: URGENT: Computers & parts needing home - New Haven CT In-Reply-To: <490FAC49.7000104@sbcglobal.net> References: <490FAC49.7000104@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4912322F.9040209@sbcglobal.net> The items have been rescued, thank you to Lou E. Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > It's moving time, and for various reasons I need to get rid of a few > items: > DEC Multia 166 MHz > Alpha workstation, not sure what CPU. > Apple PowerBook150c > Cardinal 386 computer. All in one case, like a Mac SE/30 > 2 external CD drives, SCSI, with carts > various 72 pin SIMMS, some parity, some other > 30 pin SIMMS > 2 PS/2 keyboards > various cables. > > First come, first served; take it all in one shot, it's free. > If you feel this pile is worth something, I won't turn down cash or > good beer. > If you want to disperse the items to others, that is your choice. If > you do make a profit, great! Enjoy it. I just need this stuff to > disappear by Thursday, Nov. 13. > I tried to give some of these things away before, but the recipient > never got back to me about something. > > Let me know ASAP. Thanks very much > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 5 18:23:55 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:23:55 -0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2FDEAE0FF6AC4F05B2577CF5E6291965@FLEXPC> Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting question. Are we limited to production machines? For me, > prototypes actually seem to hold more interest - it's fascinating to > see how a prototype evolved into a final product (or how bits of it > were re-used in other products), or to see from the various hardware > hacks which bits the designers were having trouble making work. Is that just prototypes that made it out of the door in some form or other or any prototypes at all, including cancelled projects? I should have stuck my hand up to claim a prototype wire-wrapped DHV11 a few (hmm, quite a few!) years ago now. I have various boards that were various projects that went nowehere. I have even more documents for project that never got as far as hardware! My VS4000-90 has green wires on it and is an early proto (although only just pre-production ... it does work very well!). My DECnis 500 may have some prototype boards in it (or available for it). But anything after that era that I've been involved in is somewhat less "interesting" as a prototype. I don't have any of the Riverstone SRP cards, but the first pass cards had all the bits on them (although not all necessarily glued on the right way by the factory!). The next pass fixed the issues and worked (IIRC). The rest of the work was just fixing the (soft) logic and the software. So if you have an early proto, it's basically cube art and if you have a later proto, it's essentially a production item (except maybe for the metalwork). Perhaps protos that don't quite make it out of the door ("the market has moved on, this'll never sell") are more interesting. To "map" the development process of anything I've worked on since about 2000 or so, you'd need an electronic paper trail plus emails. The hardware just isn't breadboarded in the same way any more. It does become obsolete much more quickly though! Which means you can more easily acquire kit which (a) was way beyond your pocket but is now free (or almost so) and (b) might actually be useful to you now rather than just "fun". Antonio From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Nov 5 18:30:03 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:30:03 -0800 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49123A8B.4080500@crash.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/11/2008 17:08, JP Hindin wrote: >> >> Alas, no, the machines in question can only be relied upon to output >> standard SGI and standard Sun video. > > I've never used older SGIs than that [...] Doesn't help if you only > have 3 x BNC, of course; you'd at least have to construct a sync > separator, but that's potentially just a one-chip stripboard design. I just thought I'd mention that I took a stock VGA to 3-BNC cable and used it "backwards" to connect the HP 9000/380 I picked up recently to a Dell/Phillips 20" LCD. The output from the HP running the PROM monitor displays just fine. YMMV, but perhaps this might work for an old IRIS 3130, or whatever tasty gear you're not divulging the nature of JP... ;^) --S. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Nov 5 20:01:05 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:01:05 -0500 Subject: VAXstations In-Reply-To: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> References: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <49124FE1.7030005@hawkmountain.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I have some VAXstations available for those that are interested... > > 1 x VAXstation 3100 (M30) > 1 x VAXstation 4100 (M40) missing 'door' for front bays correction here... sorry... it's VAXstation 3100 (M40). -- Curt > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M38 > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M76 > > all have 8 plane graphics except for the M30 (or was it the M40?). > > all have 8M of RAM. > > Other than the 4100 and one M38, these systems are in excellent > cosmetic condition (may require some cleaning). The M40 has > plastic 'issues' (missing front bay door, some hidden cracks), and > an M76 has a 2" scratch in the top. One of the M38's top doesn't > look like it fits as good as on the other M38 and is a bit more > dinged up. Other than that and that most require some cleaning, > they are in excellent condition. > > Systems do not have hard drives. I do have 1G and 2G 50 pin > SCSI drives available though (non DEC). > > Add 1G drives at $10 each, Add 2G drives at $15 each. > > If you are interested in a specific one, please make an offer. > I'll likely be listing these on eBay depending on interest here. > > Buyer will be actual shipping plus $5 to cover packing materials. > > -- Curt > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 5 20:35:37 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:35:37 -0700 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:22:51 +0100. <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Message-ID: In article <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet at kundenserver>, mark at wickensonline.co.uk writes: > I need a terminal emulator for the DEC VT series of terminals [...] I have been very happy with SecureCRT, which supports VT100 and VT220. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 5 21:05:30 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:05:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > > collecting? > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft > of any sort of software? > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? Maybe that's the thought process that leads to things like the VAX wet bar. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Nov 5 21:24:42 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:24:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: I have a VAX 3520 ("Firefox") processor board. I have no enclosure for it - it is based on the "M-bus", which just isn't all that commonly seen since it was only used for the 3520 and 3540. But I bought it on ePay just because "It Was There". I'm such a geek. Oh, and I keep watching for an enclosure, a backplane... something to plug it into. I'd just love to see the boot prompt. I'm such a geek. Cheers -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith [dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:05 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > > collecting? > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft > of any sort of software? > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? Maybe that's the thought process that leads to things like the VAX wet bar. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 5 22:26:49 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:26:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200811052326.49558.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 November 2008, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic > > > computer collecting? > > > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are > > bereft of any sort of software? > > > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? > > Maybe that's the thought process that leads to things like the VAX > wet bar. FWIW, the (original) VAXbar was supposedly made out of a VAX that had been stripped of most of its internals for use as spare parts, before the people who modified it got it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 5 22:30:44 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:30:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491228EB.1080000@gmail.com> References: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> <491228EB.1080000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811052330.44431.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 November 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic > >> computer collecting? > > > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are > > bereft of any sort of software? > > > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? > > Collect enough and they do help save on heating bills - there's less > free open space in your house to need heating :-) That's not quite true. Computers have a much higher heat capacity than air per unit volume, so you probably end up effectively heating the same amount, you just have a "capacitor" like effect that makes the temperature change more slowly. After filling about 1800 sqft of office space to a high density with computers, the effect is quite obvious. > (It'd be interesting to do a poll on how many systems each of us here > has, and how many hours a year each of those systems actually gets > run for - I suspect the results would be quite disturbing!) I do not run nearly as much or as often as I wish I could. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 5 22:35:39 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:35:39 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 November 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > collecting? > > That is, what machines are : > > a) Not known not to exist any more -- so we exclude things like ENIAC > where there's aboslutely no chance of finding an original > > b) Sufficiently uncommon to be a 'real find' > Would something like a Purdue Dual VAX count? VAX-11/780s are known to exist, and not exceedingly uncommon, but I'd be surprised to find an intact dual-VAX setup, though I hope to put one together some day.. In any case, I think that most machines from the 1950s or early 1960s (that weren't 1-offs) would fall into this category. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Nov 5 22:46:01 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 20:46:01 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <49127689.20809@crash.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Would something like a Purdue Dual VAX count? Just out of curiosity, are you referring to a VAX-11/782? It was listed on the pricelist, in SPDs, and in the UNIBUS VAX handbooks, and consisted of a pair of 11/780's with a shared-memory interconnect. Or a special one-off machine created at Purdue? --S. From ken at seefried.com Wed Nov 5 22:47:46 2008 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:47:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 Message-ID: <20081106044746.9E96E3800072A@portal.seefried.com> > I can't think of any CPUs that are "68000 style" but > not actually members of the M68K family. Signetics 68070 KJ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 5 23:40:52 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:40:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <49127689.20809@crash.com> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> Message-ID: <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 November 2008, Steven M Jones wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Would something like a Purdue Dual VAX count? > > Just out of curiosity, are you referring to a VAX-11/782? It was > listed on the pricelist, in SPDs, and in the UNIBUS VAX handbooks, > and consisted of a pair of 11/780's with a shared-memory > interconnect. Or a special one-off machine created at Purdue? The Purdue Dual-VAX, not a VAX-11/782. Also, not a special one-off machine, as dozens if not a hundred were made, most assembled by Mike Marsh. Also, it was created before the VAX-11/782 was offered, and was a much more sane system design that gave more speed for less $$$ than an 11/782. I have a copy of the paper written by Mike Marsh and George Goble on my website: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dp_vax/dual-vax11-780.pdf Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 5 23:56:00 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:56:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 05 November 2008, Steven M Jones wrote: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Would something like a Purdue Dual VAX count? > > > > Just out of curiosity, are you referring to a VAX-11/782? It was > > listed on the pricelist, in SPDs, and in the UNIBUS VAX handbooks, > > and consisted of a pair of 11/780's with a shared-memory > > interconnect. Or a special one-off machine created at Purdue? > > The Purdue Dual-VAX, not a VAX-11/782. Also, not a special one-off > machine, as dozens if not a hundred were made, most assembled by Mike > Marsh. Also, it was created before the VAX-11/782 was offered, and was > a much more sane system design that gave more speed for less $$$ than > an 11/782. > > I have a copy of the paper written by Mike Marsh and George Goble on my > website: > > http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dp_vax/dual-vax11-780.pdf Very interesting. I was wondering if anyone here has something like an emulated 11/780 running an appropriate version of BSD accessable. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Nov 6 00:38:49 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:38:49 -0800 Subject: MP VAXen, was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <491290F9.7050800@crash.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > The Purdue Dual-VAX, not a VAX-11/782. Also, not a special one-off > machine, as dozens if not a hundred were made, most assembled by Mike > Marsh. I'd heard about this long ago, but never read the paper and had forgotten about it. Thanks, this is already a fun read two pages in. This also reminds me that I'd heard rumors of people tying more than one KA630 together, but I don't have any details about that. I seem to remember some implementation details from the relevant processor handbook that seemed like they would have facilitated this, but those books are out of reach... --S. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 00:53:16 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:53:16 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> References: , <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <491223DC.11641.C6899@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2008 at 16:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting question. Are we limited to production machines? For me, > prototypes actually seem to hold more interest - it's fascinating to see how a > prototype evolved into a final product (or how bits of it were re-used in > other products), or to see from the various hardware hacks which bits the > designers were having trouble making work. I'd love to have the wirewrap TTL protos of some of the early microprocessors. Do any survive? Cheers, Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Wed Nov 5 13:02:16 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:02:16 -0800 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4911EDB8.2050908@jwsss.com> can you got from the output to something like the Raritan converter (ex: ebay has one now 160294578592) to vga to video? The one on ebay looks suspicious but might be the proper unit. I have some which have the 13W3 connector integrated in. Info is sparse on these converters, but they do work for me. At least on the Sparc video Jim > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 5 15:30:45 2008 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:30:45 -0000 Subject: VAXstations In-Reply-To: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> References: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <000301c93f8d$c4cba9b0$4e62fd10$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Sent: 05 November 2008 03:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VAXstations > > > I have some VAXstations available for those that are interested... > > 1 x VAXstation 3100 (M30) > 1 x VAXstation 4100 (M40) missing 'door' for front bays > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M38 > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M76 > > all have 8 plane graphics except for the M30 (or was it the M40?). > > all have 8M of RAM. > > Other than the 4100 and one M38, these systems are in excellent > cosmetic condition (may require some cleaning). The M40 has > plastic 'issues' (missing front bay door, some hidden cracks), and > an M76 has a 2" scratch in the top. One of the M38's top doesn't > look like it fits as good as on the other M38 and is a bit more > dinged up. Other than that and that most require some cleaning, > they are in excellent condition. > > Systems do not have hard drives. I do have 1G and 2G 50 pin > SCSI drives available though (non DEC). > > Add 1G drives at $10 each, Add 2G drives at $15 each. > > If you are interested in a specific one, please make an offer. > I'll likely be listing these on eBay depending on interest here. > > Buyer will be actual shipping plus $5 to cover packing materials. > > -- Curt I assume you are in the US, so shipping whole VAXstation would probably be too expensive for me. However, I would be interested in your 1GB drives, are they small enough for a M38 to boot from? If so, how much to ship a couple to the UK? Regards Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 5 23:15:39 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:15:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <49127689.20809@crash.com> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> Message-ID: <200811060518.AAA21534@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Would something like a Purdue Dual VAX count? I would say it would. > Just out of curiosity, are you referring to a VAX-11/782? No. I don't know much about the Purdue hack, but I know it wasn't a 782. The 782 was DEC doing a dual 780 their way; the Purdue machine was George Gobel (I think that was the name) doing it his way. I don't know enough about either way to be comptent to contrast them, but everything I've heard says they are quite distinctly different. (I know this because, time was, I was OS support for a robotics researcher who was using a dual-CPU VAX - a MicroVAX-II with a KA620 added on - and as a result I learned a little about other multiprocessor VAXen.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Nov 6 01:48:06 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:48:06 -0500 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions Message-ID: <8CB0DFB23B0D2A9-798-1761@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> Reflection?? from WRQ software is a nice suite for Windows. You can occasionally find it on e-bay for a decent price. Depending on the version you find, it will emulate: VT52, VT102, VT400, etc. Newer versions include SCO-ANSI, ADDS VP2, Wyse 50+, Wyse 60, DG215, Unisys T27, and AT386 I'm using "Version 10 for Unix and Digital" . . .? It has a built-in visual basic scriping language, which is really cool. I use that functionality daily. . . . T From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 03:48:05 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:48:05 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk><004001c93f30$2a656d00$961ca8c0@mss.local> <4911B76A.7020803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <001b01c93ff4$c4bf47d0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Glad it went to a good home, not so peeved now :-) Mike www.soemtron.org mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > On 05/11/2008 10:20, Mike Hatch wrote: >> So who was the lucky recipient ? > > Me :-) I need to make arrangements to pick it up and bring it to York, > which won't be immediately, and then I need to find time to clean it up, > make sure everything works, and then inevitably fix the parts that don't. > I don't even know for sure what boards are in it yet, but it would be nice > to get some sort of mass storage on it (RX02 would do, if I can find a > controller) and run an O/S for demonstrations. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 04:08:17 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 10:08:17 -0000 Subject: PDP7 info - was PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> <831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC> <49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se><002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> <4912243B.3050000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <002d01c93ff7$97683230$961ca8c0@mss.local> Pontus, The information on www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html is pretty much all we have for the customer name, the only other info we have not put up due to the amount involved, is the contents of each machine, EG, #12 had options 7, 75D, 138E, 139E, 140, 149, 172, 175, 177, 444, 550, 555, 649, AA01A, with the 175 option shipping 2 years after the machine, presumably as an upgrade. You can see all the info in the service list, 7th link down in the first set of links. Mike Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pontus" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > >> >> We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of >> the 120 built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > I should have remembered that site, I've looked at it just some month > ago. Anyway, do you have any more details on serial number 12. The words > "Tek Hogskolan" sounds very Swedish (Tekniska H?gskolan). But there are > a few of them, perhaps I should get my phone book out and do some > investigation :) > > Regards, > Pontus. > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 05:05:32 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:05:32 -0000 Subject: Unsuccessful web site visit [was RE: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK] References: <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk><831A126A2B0E4E8FB6931F33DF2FBFD5@FLEXPC><49114ADF.90404@update.uu.se><002001c93f2e$b457aca0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <005301c93fff$982b8890$961ca8c0@mss.local> Sorry for that, not enough checking on my part and trying to reuse pages for the soemtron site from another. I can retrieve most of the links but a couple were bad but should be fixed now including the error reporting. Mike mike at soemtron.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Alderson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:17 PM Subject: Unsuccessful web site visit [was RE: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK] > From: Mike Hatch > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:10 AM > >> We have a page for PDP-7 info and a list of the 99 known systems of the >> 120 >> built here - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > While I can get to the top page, I get a "Missing file" page when I try to > retrieve anything--and the same page when I click on the "Report a > problem" > button on the Missing File page. > > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 05:24:57 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:24:57 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: Message-ID: <009d01c94002$4cc7e210$961ca8c0@mss.local> > a) Not known not to exist any more -- so we exclude things like ENIAC > where there's aboslutely no chance of finding an original Could say that about many machines but then something pops up right next door, E.G. the 8/e in Sussex, I know lots were built but how many came into the UK. I know there was a PDP7 within two miles of where I am now, but it's so heavily policed, literally, there's no chance of getting in to check. Would add as "real finds" - SDS 930 series Leo III Elliott 80x series Mike mike at soemtron.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK >> I guess this has been discussed to death in other places(and here to), >> but given the knowledgeable readers of this list, I'm just to curious >> not to ask. >> >> How many linc-8, PDP-7 and PDP-9 survived? I've only seen one of each, >> and only one in the flesh so to speak. Do they carry any value? or are >> they simply to large for the general computer affectionado? > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > collecting? > > That is, what machines are : > > a) Not known not to exist any more -- so we exclude things like ENIAC > where there's aboslutely no chance of finding an original > > b) Sufficiently uncommon to be a 'real find' > > It would appear form the above that the PDP7 and PDP9 qualifiy. I would > add the PERQ 2T4, possibly the HP9831 (the Australian site claims they're > very rare, but I am not totally convinced). > > -tony > > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 6 05:47:23 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:47:23 -0700 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> References: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Message-ID: <4912D94B.4020608@e-bbes.com> mark at wickensonline.co.uk wrote: > Collective wisdom, > > I need a terminal emulator for the DEC VT series of terminals, from VT200 upwards. This is to connect to an OpenVMS box running All-In-1, so it needs to support double width/height characters and be a fairly good emulation. Most 'vt compatible' terminals appear to not be up to the job. > > Does any one have any suggestions please? Even better if it supports soft font downloads so I can use APL aswell. > > I've got access to Windows and Linux boxes. What's wrong with the real thing ? Like a vt240 or vt525 ? Or do you need graphics ? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 6 06:07:48 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:07:48 +0000 Subject: Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <200811060434.mA64XaRO084002@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811060434.mA64XaRO084002@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> On 6 Nov, 2008, at 04:34, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 18 > Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:14:51 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <491228EB.1080000 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer >>> collecting? >> >> Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft >> of any sort of software? >> >> If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? > > Collect enough and they do help save on heating bills - there's less > free open > space in your house to need heating :-) > > (It'd be interesting to do a poll on how many systems each of us > here has, and > how many hours a year each of those systems actually gets run for - > I suspect > the results would be quite disturbing!) My computers: 1962 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape transport + paper tape used once a fortnight for a day except in winter (Germanium hates cold) c1963 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape transport. Dismantled 30 years ago. Sold and will be picked up for a new computer museum's centrepiece on Tuesday. c1977 UK 101 Bought new but not turned on for 20 years c1980 Apple 2 last used about 15 years ago c1983 Apple 2e last used about 10 years ago Apple 3 and profile, not used since it broke in service and not deemed to be worth fixing Lisa 2 and various old Macintoshes. Powered up now and again, mainly to access data stored in old formats/on old media. Average probably once in 5 years each. Titanium PowerBook, used to play Civilisation 2 and a few other games about twice a year for a few days, usually Christmas or when I am sick. MacBook Pro everyday machine. It is perhaps interesting to compare with my old non computer items: ASR33 used 3 months ago Flexowriter with wide carriage and reader and punches for either regular paper tape or thin fanfold card. Last used about 10 years ago but hopefully soon to be restored. IBM 836 keypunch with I/O and programmable patch panel, originally connected to above Flexowriter as a tape to card and card to tape transfer but I stupidly did not buy the cables or even the plugs. - I need patch cables and control drum for this too if anyone has any. Feeds cards but will not punch or print, need to fix the punching very soon. Sumlock comptometer, used by my late Aunt for doing people's accounts about 10 years ago. Mechanical calculator. Works but not used for 10 years. 1974 Sharp calculator. 21st birthday present, still used every couple of days. 1890s Cash register, left here by previous owner of the farm, never used but good to look at. Edison dictating machine and player machines. Looks to be 19th century. Not used since my father bought them in the 1950s as he did not have a skimming machine for the cylinders. 1964 Rover car. Last week turned engine over and operated clutch to stop it seizing but would not start. 1966 Rover, 1969 Daimler, 1987 BMW, 1993 Jaguar. Used daily in rotation. 1972 Land Rover One Ton, used about 4 times a year, like when the snow is a foot thick or as a truck when setting up my classic car show. 1998 Daimler Supercharged 4 litre. Was used in rotation with the above but now produces copious steam - presumably a cylinder head gasket failure which I don't have time to fix. Victorian oak table which extends to about 20 feet long by 7 feet wide. Was not used for 40+ years but I got it restored and now used regularly as my company's board room table, but still belongs to me and my parents. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 6 06:42:35 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 12:42:35 +0000 Subject: Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> References: <200811060434.mA64XaRO084002@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4912E63B.2090400@gjcp.net> With a lot of my equipment I'm not sure where the "classic computer" bits start and end. I'd classify my Ensoniq Mirage as at least somewhat on-topic, being basically a 6809-based computer with a very complicated sound chip ;-) I've got a pair of Alesis MMT-8 sequencers that are basically an 80C32, some RAM, some ROM and some glue logic to interface a 16x2 LCD and a keypad. You can get the circuit diagram off the 'net - it's surprisingly like any simple home computer design from the late 70s onwards... I've had to get rid of a lot of stuff recently, due to lack of storage space. However now that my PDP11 is back out of storage, I'll probably get that run up before the end of 2008. Gordon From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 07:37:44 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:37:44 -0600 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <009d01c94002$4cc7e210$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <009d01c94002$4cc7e210$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4912F328.3000002@gmail.com> Mike Hatch wrote: > I know there was a PDP7 within two miles of where I am now, but it's so > heavily policed, literally, there's no chance of getting in to check. Is/was that NGTE? I thought the site was cleared out of pretty much everything and therefore the PDP7 would be long gone... > Would add as "real finds" - > SDS 930 series > Leo III > Elliott 80x series It's possible there's still an Elliott or two lurking in storage somewhere. Unlike nearly all other machines from that era, they seemed to have survived much better. Still not many around now, of course - but I think there's more chance of finding an 80x 'barn find' [in the UK] than any other system from that era. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 07:47:11 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:47:11 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <2FDEAE0FF6AC4F05B2577CF5E6291965@FLEXPC> References: <2FDEAE0FF6AC4F05B2577CF5E6291965@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <4912F55F.6080904@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Interesting question. Are we limited to production machines? For me, >> prototypes actually seem to hold more interest - it's fascinating to >> see how a prototype evolved into a final product (or how bits of it >> were re-used in other products), or to see from the various hardware >> hacks which bits the designers were having trouble making work. > > Is that just prototypes that made it out of the door in some form > or other or any prototypes at all, including cancelled projects? Oh, anything. Cancelled projects are just as fascinating - it's really interesting seeing where the designers were going in their thinking at a particular moment in time. > I have various > boards that were various projects that went nowehere. I have even > more documents for project that never got as far as hardware! Me too - and there's a subset there in terms of clone projects by third-party companies which were then pounced on by legal departments; some of those can be rather interesting (and in some cases the clones never got as far as being announced / marketed, so google etc. doesn't even turn up any evidence that they existed, even though in some cases they made it to real hardware). Scouring any 'internal' media salvaged from some of these companies can produce a real goldmine of information which otherwise would end up being forgotten about. > the first pass cards had all the bits on them (although > not all necessarily glued on the right way by the factory!). Heh. I've seen some boards where they've even done things like make a 50-way IDC socket out of bits of two other sockets - you can just imagine hardware guys working late into the night to get something running for a demo the next day, and having to lash something up because they didn't have the right part :-) > Perhaps protos that don't quite make it out of the door ("the market has > moved on, this'll never sell") are more interesting. Yep, that too. It's hard to make such items 'useful' of course, they're more for curiosity value than anything - but as I hinted at earlier, I suspect the majority of us actually run very little of what's in our collections anyway. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 07:53:56 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 07:53:56 -0600 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4912F6F4.9020001@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Doesn't help if you only have 3 x BNC, of > course; you'd at least have to construct a sync separator, but that's > potentially just a one-chip stripboard design. I'm not sure how easy a sync separator is. I seem to remember there's a SAA-family chip that'll do it, but I'm not sure how obtainable those are these days. I suppose finding a junk old monitor with sync-on-green / combined sync ability might source some useful parts. I don't know how easy it would be to build something out of passive components / 74xx logic parts... If there's a way of doing it reasonably easily then that'd be a good route - build a sync splitter and then feed the output into a PC-based capture card. Another option might be to convert the video to composite and feed it into a PC-based TV capture card (some of these seem to have composite inputs) - but I'm not sure if there are problems there either with using composite for high resolutions or with the capture card expecting only a set of "TV" resolutions and barfing on something different. cheers Jules From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Nov 6 09:21:41 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:21:41 -0800 Subject: MP VAXen, was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491290F9.7050800@crash.com> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <491290F9.7050800@crash.com> Message-ID: Are you referring to this Micronote? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote26.txt I've accumulated the bits and pieces to try this out, but haven't gotten to it yet. The Micronote states that the DEC OSs don't do anything with this, which has always intrigued me: so the hardware guys made this cool feature and the software guys ignored it? :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven M Jones [classiccmp at crash.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:38 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: MP VAXen, was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > The Purdue Dual-VAX, not a VAX-11/782. Also, not a special one-off > machine, as dozens if not a hundred were made, most assembled by Mike > Marsh. I'd heard about this long ago, but never read the paper and had forgotten about it. Thanks, this is already a fun read two pages in. This also reminds me that I'd heard rumors of people tying more than one KA630 together, but I don't have any details about that. I seem to remember some implementation details from the relevant processor handbook that seemed like they would have facilitated this, but those books are out of reach... --S. From steve at cosam.org Thu Nov 6 09:49:00 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:49:00 +0100 Subject: BBC reports "New lifeline for Bletchley Park" Message-ID: <95838e090811060749y9006b5bh2864afc98d2ead15@mail.gmail.com> English Heritage pledges ?330,000 grant: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7710966.stm -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 6 10:31:50 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:31:50 +0000 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <4912F6F4.9020001@gmail.com> References: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> <4912F6F4.9020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49131BF6.4050807@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/11/2008 13:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Doesn't help if you only have 3 x BNC, of course; you'd at least have >> to construct a sync separator, but that's potentially just a one-chip >> stripboard design. > > I'm not sure how easy a sync separator is. I seem to remember there's a > SAA-family chip that'll do it, but I'm not sure how obtainable those are > these days. I don't know of an SAA series one; I was thinking LM1881, which is still readily available. There are other single-chip solutions, of course, such as various Intersil EL45xx chips. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 6 11:00:55 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 17:00:55 +0000 Subject: Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <4912E63B.2090400@gjcp.net> References: <200811060434.mA64XaRO084002@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> <4912E63B.2090400@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <491322C7.4070202@dunnington.plus.com> I have a few classic machines that get used often, including a PDP-8 (sometimes for demos, sometimes because I'm working on a fault, and sometimes because the workshop can be cold otherwise), an Acorn Archimedes A440 (used for file transfers and other apps), and an SGI Indy that runs 24/7 as a mail server and printer server. I have a few machines that run occasionally, including a PDP-11/23, a microPDP-11/83, an Apple ][+, a Commodore PET 2001 8K, an Exidy Sorcerer, a BBC Micro Model B, a NeXT slab, and an 16-CPU SGI Origin 2000. Most of these are used for demos. As for the total collection, it depends on what you count, but I think over 60 machines if you include SBCs like a KIM-1. Which reminds me, that needs fixed too, after it died again at the last exhibition :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 11:38:58 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:38:58 -0000 Subject: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) References: <200811060434.mA64XaRO084002@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <001101c94036$8d0de700$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 12:07 PM Subject: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) > 1962 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape transport + > paper tape used once a fortnight for a day except in winter (Germanium > hates cold) Ampex TM4's seems to be used by a lot of systems, we had them on the SDS9300, ICL gave me a job purely to repair TM4's on their contracted LEO III's. > c1963 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape transport. > Dismantled 30 years ago. Sold and will be picked up for a new computer > museum's centrepiece on Tuesday. Which museum ? Mike. From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Nov 6 11:45:45 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:45:45 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK References: <009d01c94002$4cc7e210$961ca8c0@mss.local> <4912F328.3000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901c94037$7f76f090$961ca8c0@mss.local> It was, but there is still a surprising amount of kit on the site, I was still installing equipment there in 2003/4. Unofficial photos on the web show the computer room pretty much as it was many years ago, but it appears to be just old PC storage now. They went for localised PDP11's, some of them are still in the control rooms apparently. NGTE did have the knack of removing old equipment and shoving it into old buildings. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [personal] Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK > Mike Hatch wrote: > > I know there was a PDP7 within two miles of where I am now, but it's so > > heavily policed, literally, there's no chance of getting in to check. > > Is/was that NGTE? I thought the site was cleared out of pretty much > everything and therefore the PDP7 would be long gone... > >> Would add as "real finds" - >> SDS 930 series >> Leo III >> Elliott 80x series > > It's possible there's still an Elliott or two lurking in storage > somewhere. Unlike nearly all other machines from that era, they seemed to > have survived much better. Still not many around now, of course - but I > think there's more chance of finding an 80x 'barn find' [in the UK] than > any other system from that era. > > cheers > > Jules > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 11:47:46 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:47:46 +0000 Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: References: <337844.66087.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <575131af0810310517n32ec5104kb72023bfaf23867a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0811060947j188f87abhea2a74804d426f06@mail.gmail.com> 2008/10/31 Joost van de Griek : > 2008/10/31 Liam Proven : > >> 2008/9/22 Chris M : >> >>> I've been told using the compact Macs are an exercise in futility. But what about the Mac II's? (original II, IIx, IIfx, IIcx). >> >> I have tried 2 classic Macs on the Web in the last few years. >> >> A maxed-out Classic II: 68030 @ 16MHz on a 16-bit bus, 10MB RAM, MacOS >> 7.6.1, Netscape 3 and 4, Dayna Ethernet-SCSI adaptor on 8Mb/s ADSL. >> >> It worked in the theoretical sense: 25 *min* to render the top-left >> corner of Slashdot. > > That's preposterous. I would blame the web master more than the > browser and machine. Simpler sites were faster, but stuff like JavaScript really screws up old browsers on Macs. If you use the latest thing it will run, they work, but v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y. >> Later, I set up a Quadra 630 as a "media centre". 25MHz 68040EC, 40MB >> RAM, comms slot 10base-T Ethernet, MacOS 8.1, IE 4, Netscape Navigator >> 4.04 and Netscape Communicator 4.6, with Quicktime, Flash, Acrobat >> Reader 3, stuff like that. >> >> Again, it "worked". On the 630, OS 8.1 gave me Netscape 3 and IE 3. >> Both pretty useless today; they can't render the Google homepage. I >> put Netscape 4 and IE 4 onto a Zip disk from an OS X Mac, installed >> 'em and at least I could get online. Both really struggle with the C21 >> Web and rendering is dog-slow but if you exercise Buddha-like patience >> you can use it. It's not unakin to being on dial-up. > > I would use a browser like iCab (www.icab.de) on such systems. They > offer more modern features and adhere to newer standards. To speed > things up a bit, just override sites' CSS and always refer to a local, > bare-bones CSS. Properly built sites will then display pretty well > (Lynx-like, but usable). I've used iCab, yes. It's all right, but a bit basic and does have a habit of randomly quitting. I don't think any current or recent version will run on System 7 on a 68030, though. It's very impressive for a one-man effort, but I think he's shot himself in the foot by dropping support for Classic MacOS - it was the only current MacOS 9 browser for years, but now, as an OS X-only product, he's in competition with Firefox, Safari and many others. He's chosen to go from being a big fish in a small (and shrinking) pond to a tiny one in a large lake. Risky move. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 6 11:54:57 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <0E42A012-B15F-4287-8186-B659AA7B02A6@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200811061754.mA6HsvA5010643@onyx.spiritone.com> > > (It'd be interesting to do a poll on how many systems each of us > > here has, and > > how many hours a year each of those systems actually gets run for - > > I suspect > > the results would be quite disturbing!) I have close to 100 systems, most see little or no use. Of the ones that actually get used at least some each year. PowerMac G5 2x2 -- Primary machine & needs to be upgraded to something better able to handle my digital photography. I *HOPE* to upgrade to a Mac Pro in the next 6 months. Compaq XP1000/667 -- Primary VMS box, offline due to housing situation VAXstation 4000 -- DECnet Router and game box, in storage due to housing situation Pentium III -- OpenBSD box, in storage due to housing situation Core 2 Duo -- Used rarely for WinXP (a couple games I don't have time for), or FreeNAS, in storage due to housing situation SunBlade 1000 -- Used rarely, mostly used to low-level format drives for the XP1000, in storage due to housing situation Mini-ITX system -- used rarely for UNIX stuff, in storage due to housing situation Commodore 64 -- hardware hacking and games, in storage due to housing situation PDP-11/73 -- used rarely, when I need real hardware, really don't have time for it anymore, in storage due to housing situation All told I have close to 100 machines in storage, with no hope of getting to them. This will likely change in the next few months as we're looking to buy a house, and if we do they'll all be moving from storage into the garage (or else donated to the Library). While I collected a lot of 8-bit and some 16-bit stuff in the late 90's my interests quickly shifted to DEC HW and software. This is where my primary interest has remained, and the only thing I actively mess with. My time for messing with stuff has largely dried up though. Once or twice a year I seem to spend at least a couple weeks playing with the Commodore 64. Most of my spare time these days that isn't spent with the family is spent with either photography or vinyl records. Zane From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 6 12:30:46 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:30:46 -0500 Subject: Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) Message-ID: <01C94013.ED012000@host-208-72-122-200.dyn.295.ca> A while back there was talk about maybe having a database of who had what and where, in the way of hardware, software, documentation and expertise; any further thoughts on that? mike From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:26:59 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:26:59 +0000 Subject: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <200811061754.mA6HsRiC093184@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811061754.mA6HsRiC093184@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4D4241EE-5EAF-4A6A-BBCE-0871B91E975A@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Mike Hatch" > Subject: Re: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West > Sussex, UK) > > >> 1962 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape >> transport + >> paper tape used once a fortnight for a day except in winter >> (Germanium >> hates cold) > Ampex TM4's seems to be used by a lot of systems, we had them on the > SDS9300, ICL gave me a job purely to repair TM4's on their > contracted LEO > III's. > >> c1963 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape >> transport. >> Dismantled 30 years ago. Sold and will be picked up for a new >> computer >> museum's centrepiece on Tuesday. > Which museum ? Its not open yet but it is in the far north west of England, I don't think I can say much more than that, I don't want to steal their thunder. Roger. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:04:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:04:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491223E5.1040100@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 5, 8 04:53:25 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > > collecting? > > Interesting question. Are we limited to production machines? For me, As I'm one of the main people to be a 'smartarse' when others ask general questions, I feel it would be most unreasoanble to object to any interpretation :-). So, yes, you can include prototypes, provided at least one is known to have survived. And of course I include micros. > prototypes actually seem to hold more interest - it's fascinating to see how a > prototype evolved into a final product (or how bits of it were re-used in > other products), or to see from the various hardware hacks which bits the > designers were having trouble making work > > Oddball architectures appeal, too - parallel / multiprocessor systems, those > which use a secondary processor for bootstrap / monitoring, those which use an > uncommon CPU. Then there's graphics-heavy systems - I can always appreciate > (and relate to) something with a lot of attached graphics hardware. Sure, but those needn't be particuarly rare. An obvious example of a machine with a bootstrap processor is the Torch XXX, which uses a 6303 or something to boot the 68000 (it copies the bootstrap code from its 8 bit EPROM into the (shared) video memory, then releases the 68K from reset). Now, XXXs are not that common, but I'd not call them a 'holy grail'. > I'm not too fussy I suppose - I don't tend to go after specific machines, but I do, and I don;t. There are some things that if they turned up in a way I could _possibly_ obtain them, I'd do all I could to get them. And there are other machines that I've bought becasue they were easy to obtain (for me) and probably interesting. And still others that I have because they were free :-). > just see what shows up. Having said that I would *love* a Connection Machine > CM2, although I probably wouldn't know what to do with it - but you can never > had too many blinkenlights :-) > > Now that I have the space for it, I do really want to find something *big* to > play with - not necessarily rare or anything, but a few cabinets of mini or > mainframe would be fun to screw around with (maybe a PDP-11 and some storage / > I/O would be nice, then I could perhaps understand what all the fuss is about > DEC machines :-) You mentioned graphics earlier. There were many external third-party graphics add-ons for PDP11s and VAXen. Some of them downright strange. How about the PPL video hard disk (one track per colour per frame, stores the image in FM-encoded _analogue_ on the disk. Replays it in real time through a demodulator to the monitor). Or an I2S Model 70 (now I think that _is_ rare). Any machine with over 3000 DRAM chips and about the same number of logic pacakges must be interesting :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:09:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:09:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <4911B660.10590.1368E5CD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 8 03:06:08 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > What do people consider to be the 'holy grails' of classic computer > > collecting? > > Do people collect CPUs that no longer have peripherals or are bereft > of any sort of software? I believe they do. I find it sad when somebody raids a complete system -- CPU + mass storage + ionterfaces + terminals and just keeps the CPU box. TO me the other parts of the system are at least as interesting [1]. But it's quite reasonable IMHO to rescue just the CPU box (if nothing else is around) with the hope of either obtaining peripherals for it, or making them, writing software for it, and so on. In fact I did that myself. My first classic computer was a Philips P850 minicomputer. It came with the paper tape intefaces and a serial card, but no peripherals and no software. I got it to work with a paper tape punch/reader that I had, a fried wrote a monitor program and a cross-assembler, etc. If I'd not rescued that machine, I'd probably not be on this list now ... [1] Feel free to generalise my original question to cover very rare periperhals, etc. > > If so, what is done with them, other than to use them as doorstops? See above. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 6 13:13:59 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 19:13:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491228EB.1080000@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 5, 8 05:14:51 pm Message-ID: > (It'd be interesting to do a poll on how many systems each of us here has, and > how many hours a year each of those systems actually gets run for - I suspect > the results would be quite disturbing!) I suspect I have over 200 machines. Some are simple home micros, others are reasonably well-specified minicomputer systems. I do collect peripherals as well as CPUs. To take a trivial example (and it's not rare, it's certainly not a 'holy grail', I spent some time a couple of years back restoring an HP7245A printer/plotter (a thermal hard-copy device that can both print dot-matrix characters and plot vectors). I had to make up alignment tools and so on. I found that as interesting and the design as beautiful; as many CPUs. As regards running time, I tend to concentrate on one particular machine (or closely-related family), get it working, and then move on to somethign else or go back to a machine I've worked on previously. So in a given year, some machine will get run for ocnsiderable periods, some might not be turned on at all. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 14:32:58 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 14:32:58 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? Message-ID: <4913547A.3010304@gmail.com> The museum's been offered a reasonable archive set of Computer Shopper magazines, but doesn't however really have the space to justify taking/keeping them given the historical 'worth' and anticipated demand for them as reference material. Consideration's being given to just scanning them as an electronic-only reference - question is, has this already been done by anyone? There seems little sense in duplicating effort! cheers Jules From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Nov 6 14:34:28 2008 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:34:28 +0000 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions Message-ID: <491354D4.5090808@wickensonline.co.uk> Thanks for the replies. I have a VT520 that I use as much as possible! However, sitting in front of the TV of an evening I was looking for an emulator capable of accessing some of the forms related software on my DEC Alpha 3000/600 such as DECforms and All-in-1. Both use double wide/high fonts which don't work well with most terminal emulators. I did have a serial connection to the attic at one time and used a VT terminal for a while, but having a VT terminal in the lounge is maybe taking the 'hobby' a little too far in my wife's eyes! Anyway, I have answered my own question: IVT. Available free at http://www.softwarevoordelig.nl/en/ I was amazed at (a) how well it worked and (b) what a quality piece of software it is. I recommend it. Regards, Mark. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 6 14:38:33 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:38:33 -0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4913547A.3010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A46A0AD47614F80BC0F9C189C5074DE@FLEXPC> Jules Richardson wrote: > The museum's been offered a reasonable archive set of Computer Shopper > magazines, but doesn't however really have the space to justify > taking/keeping them given the historical 'worth' and anticipated > demand for them as reference material. > > Consideration's being given to just scanning them as an > electronic-only reference - question is, has this already been done > by anyone? There seems little sense in duplicating effort! Some magazines (like Practical Electronics) offer subscribers an electronic edition (or a CD with back issues). If Computer Shopper have that available you might try just contacting them and seeing if they've already got the data and whether they'd let you have a copy as you are a museum ... Does the museum have a dispensation to just go ahead and scan? If not, wouldn't you have speak to them to ask for permission anyway ... Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 6 15:47:57 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:47:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BBC reports "New lifeline for Bletchley Park" In-Reply-To: <95838e090811060749y9006b5bh2864afc98d2ead15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25475.34204.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That's good news. I certainly don't want Bletchley Park to fall into ruin. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 6/11/08, Steve Maddison wrote: From: Steve Maddison Subject: BBC reports "New lifeline for Bletchley Park" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 6 November, 2008, 3:49 PM English Heritage pledges ?330,000 grant: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7710966.stm -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 16:12:07 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:12:07 -0600 Subject: BBC reports "New lifeline for Bletchley Park" In-Reply-To: <25475.34204.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <25475.34204.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49136BB7.70803@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > That's good news. I certainly don't want Bletchley Park to fall into ruin. It did that long ago - the trick is salvaging what's left :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 16:17:24 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:17:24 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <7A46A0AD47614F80BC0F9C189C5074DE@FLEXPC> References: <7A46A0AD47614F80BC0F9C189C5074DE@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <49136CF4.8030202@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Some magazines (like Practical Electronics) offer subscribers an > electronic edition (or a CD with back issues). If Computer Shopper > have that available you might try just contacting them and seeing > if they've already got the data and whether they'd let you have a copy > as you are a museum ... That's a really good idea - thanks. (I'm now trying to work out if computershopper.com is anything to do with the magazine - hard to tell. Plus there seem to be two different sites claiming to be for computer shopper magazine subscriptions - which makes me think that at least one of them must be bogus!) > Does the museum have a dispensation to just go ahead and scan? > If not, wouldn't you have speak to them to ask for permission anyway ... Very murky waters there - it's hard to tell. The museum would certainly need to seek permission to "make public" any scans, but I suspect that initially scanning for the purposes of preservation within the museum group wouldn't fall foul of anything (but IANAL etc. :-) cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 6 16:29:20 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:29:20 -0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <49136CF4.8030202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's a really good idea - thanks. (I'm now trying to work out if > computershopper.com is anything to do with the magazine - hard to > tell. Plus there seem to be two different sites claiming to be for > computer shopper magazine subscriptions - which makes me think that > at least one of them must be bogus!) Assuming the museum has the UK magazine (which is a reasonable assumption) the computershopper.com is not it; either that or they've been getting away with "theater" for far too long :-) I do have one or two copies of that rag^H^H^Hmag somewhere, but nowhere convenient right now. I assume that, if it has a homepage, this one is more likely: http://www.computer-shopper-magazine.co.uk/. It certainly looks more like the covers that I remember (and that "?" price seems a good hint too). Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 6 18:23:02 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:23:02 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <20081106044746.9E96E3800072A@portal.seefried.com> References: <20081106044746.9E96E3800072A@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: <49138A66.4020802@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I can't think of any CPUs that are "68000 style" but > not actually members of the M68K family. Ken Seefried wrote: > Signetics 68070 Yes, well, I suppose next you're going to tell me that the Hitachi HD68000 isn't part of the M68K family. The 68070 wasn't the only 68K-based processor that was never made by Motorola (or Freescale). Toshiba had some also. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 6 18:25:02 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 16:25:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > That's a really good idea - thanks. (I'm now trying to work out if > > computershopper.com is anything to do with the magazine - hard to > > tell. Plus there seem to be two different sites claiming to be for > > computer shopper magazine subscriptions - which makes me think that > > at least one of them must be bogus!) > > Assuming the museum has the UK magazine (which is a reasonable > assumption) the computershopper.com is not it; either that or they've > been getting away with "theater" for far too long :-) > > I do have one or two copies of that rag^H^H^Hmag somewhere, but nowhere > convenient right now. I assume that, if it has a homepage, this one is > more likely: http://www.computer-shopper-magazine.co.uk/. It certainly > looks more like the covers that I remember (and that "?" price seems > a good hint too). Wait... Are you guys talking about scanning Computer Shopper from back when it was the size of a phonebook? It seems to me that that era contains the most vintage-interest. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 18:53:35 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:53:35 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> That's a really good idea - thanks. (I'm now trying to work out if >>> computershopper.com is anything to do with the magazine - hard to >>> tell. Plus there seem to be two different sites claiming to be for >>> computer shopper magazine subscriptions - which makes me think that >>> at least one of them must be bogus!) >> Assuming the museum has the UK magazine (which is a reasonable >> assumption) the computershopper.com is not it; either that or they've >> been getting away with "theater" for far too long :-) >> >> I do have one or two copies of that rag^H^H^Hmag somewhere, but nowhere >> convenient right now. I assume that, if it has a homepage, this one is >> more likely: http://www.computer-shopper-magazine.co.uk/. It certainly >> looks more like the covers that I remember (and that "?" price seems >> a good hint too). > > Wait... Are you guys talking about scanning Computer Shopper from back > when it was the size of a phonebook? It seems to me that that era > contains the most vintage-interest. I'm not sure about phonebook-sized; the first few issues look to be the size of a 'normal' magazine - although I think I do vaguely remember the mag getting pretty huge in the early 90s. The collection we were offered is/was pretty complete - issue 1 to the present day, with just a few missing; the problem is that it's a huge about of storage space for something that would very rarely be required as a reference, and there are more important machine/manufacturer-specific things needing shelf space. It's hard to justify accepting - but at the same time the museum is the logical first port of call for anyone looking for a Computer Shopper mag (for whatever reason). Having scans of them all solves the problems nicely... cheers Jules From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Nov 6 19:06:21 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:06:21 -0500 Subject: VAXstations In-Reply-To: <49124FE1.7030005@hawkmountain.net> References: <49111636.8020700@hawkmountain.net> <49124FE1.7030005@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: ok i'd be interested in the 3100 M76 instead pls let me know how much total. thanks Dan. > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 21:01:05 -0500 > From: rescue at hawkmountain.net > To: > Subject: Re: VAXstations > > Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > > > I have some VAXstations available for those that are interested... > > > > 1 x VAXstation 3100 (M30) > > 1 x VAXstation 4100 (M40) missing 'door' for front bays > > correction here... sorry... it's VAXstation 3100 (M40). > > -- Curt > > > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M38 > > 2 x VAXstation 3100 M76 > > > > all have 8 plane graphics except for the M30 (or was it the M40?). > > > > all have 8M of RAM. > > > > Other than the 4100 and one M38, these systems are in excellent > > cosmetic condition (may require some cleaning). The M40 has > > plastic 'issues' (missing front bay door, some hidden cracks), and > > an M76 has a 2" scratch in the top. One of the M38's top doesn't > > look like it fits as good as on the other M38 and is a bit more > > dinged up. Other than that and that most require some cleaning, > > they are in excellent condition. > > > > Systems do not have hard drives. I do have 1G and 2G 50 pin > > SCSI drives available though (non DEC). > > > > Add 1G drives at $10 each, Add 2G drives at $15 each. > > > > If you are interested in a specific one, please make an offer. > > I'll likely be listing these on eBay depending on interest here. > > > > Buyer will be actual shipping plus $5 to cover packing materials. > > > > -- Curt > > > _________________________________________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 6 19:18:19 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:18:19 -0700 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:34:28 +0000. <491354D4.5090808@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <491354D4.5090808 at wickensonline.co.uk>, Mark Wickens writes: > Anyway, I have answered my own question: IVT. Available free at > http://www.softwarevoordelig.nl/en/ I was amazed at (a) how well it > worked and (b) what a quality piece of software it is. I recommend it. I should point out that when you say "Available free" you mean that you can download a free trial. The software itself is not free as in beer or speech. Or did I miss something? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 19:42:03 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:42:03 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > It's hard to justify accepting - but at the same time the museum is the > logical first port of call for anyone looking for a Computer Shopper mag > (for whatever reason). Having scans of them all solves the problems > nicely... I urge you to keep the paper copy. Paper is one of the longest preservable forms of information. Properly taken care of it will last centurys. Even Computer Shopper with its acid based paper would last a couple of centuries boxed in a dry environment. Scans are ephemeral...formats change...and it doesn't work at all without electicity. However I would love to have access to a online digital copy. Good luck in your project. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Nov 6 19:43:23 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:43:23 -0200 Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) References: <4911D858.30008@dunnington.plus.com> <4912F6F4.9020001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c9407a$6764b210$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> Doesn't help if you only have 3 x BNC, of >> course; you'd at least have to construct a sync separator, but that's >> potentially just a one-chip stripboard design. > I'm not sure how easy a sync separator is. I seem to remember there's a > SAA-family chip that'll do it, but I'm not sure how obtainable those are > these > days. LM1881. 8 pin chip, can be found everywhere, uses a cap and a resistor if I'm not mistaken. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 6 20:02:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 18:02:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > The collection we were offered is/was pretty complete - issue 1 to the present > day, with just a few missing; the problem is that it's a huge about of storage > space for something that would very rarely be required as a reference, and > there are more important machine/manufacturer-specific things needing shelf > space. Do you have a copy of "dBase2 v the bilge pump"? Do you have a copy of Osborne's "The guy on the left"? Do you have a copy of World Power System's ads? Do you have a copy of the Otrona "little tramp" ad? Do you have a copy of the IBM converable '57 Chevy ad? Do you have a copy of the Apple ad "welcoming" IBM? Do you have a copy of the Lisa ads? How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? Don't you hate rhetorical questions? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 6 20:04:50 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:04:50 -0700 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4913A242.3080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> The collection we were offered is/was pretty complete - issue 1 to the present >> day, with just a few missing; the problem is that it's a huge about of storage >> space for something that would very rarely be required as a reference, and >> there are more important machine/manufacturer-specific things needing shelf >> space. >> > > Do you have a copy of "dBase2 v the bilge pump"? > Do you have a copy of Osborne's "The guy on the left"? > Do you have a copy of World Power System's ads? > Do you have a copy of the Otrona "little tramp" ad? > Do you have a copy of the IBM converable '57 Chevy ad? > Do you have a copy of the Apple ad "welcoming" IBM? > Do you have a copy of the Lisa ads? > How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? > > > Don't you hate rhetorical questions? > > Do you have the PRODUCT to go with the ads? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 6 20:14:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:14:24 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC>, <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com>, <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49133400.25168.4336193@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2008 at 18:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? Mostly the ads with scantily-clad women in them... --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 6 20:17:53 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:17:53 -0700 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:37:08 -0600. Message-ID: Well, the whole kit-n-kaboodle is packed up and on its way to the warehouse space I share with a couple other collectors. I'll try to get some pics up on picasa soon after it gets here. The whole lot was about 1700 lbs. worth of freight. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Nov 6 20:38:41 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 02:38:41 +0000 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081107023841.GA12651@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 07:17:53PM -0700, Richard wrote: > Well, the whole kit-n-kaboodle is packed up and on its way to the > warehouse space I share with a couple other collectors. I'll try to get > some pics up on picasa soon after it gets here. The whole lot was about > 1700 lbs. worth of freight. Congratulations with that acquisition. From what I read, the guts of that sound really fun. I look forward to the pictures and to any success stories about reviving it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2008 at 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.8 F (-38.8 C) Windchill -64.8 F (-53.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.2 kts Grid 76 Barometer 687.6 mb (10343 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 21:06:52 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:06:52 -0400 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I urge you to keep the paper copy. Paper is one of the longest > preservable forms of information. Properly taken care of it will last > centurys. Even Computer Shopper with its acid based paper would last a > couple of centuries boxed in a dry environment. No, not that newsprint crap. It will start disintegrating within 50 years, and the costs associated with acid paper stabilization are very high. I see how the hobby publications of the 1940s are falling apart now, and Computer Shopper is in the same danger. The paper would be good to keep, however, I would not count on it being archival in any way. Like it, or (mostly) not, Computer Shopper is a very important slice of computing history. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 6 21:08:21 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:08:21 -0400 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The whole lot was about > 1700 lbs. worth of freight. Wimp. I have more than twice that weight of card and unit record equipment coming on Tuesday. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 6 22:30:56 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 23:30:56 -0500 Subject: Datec? Message-ID: <002901c94091$a22ec720$0201a8c0@evan> Is anyone familiar with a company called Datec Inc., based in Colorado Springs in the mid-1980s? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 6 22:41:55 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:41:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone utilizing early Macs to access the internet? In-Reply-To: <575131af0811060947j188f87abhea2a74804d426f06@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Nov 6, 8 05:47:46 pm" Message-ID: <200811070441.mA74ftjY013258@floodgap.com> > It's very impressive for a one-man effort, but I think he's shot > himself in the foot by dropping support for Classic MacOS To be fair (and this comes from him directly), he isn't completely dropping iCab 3; he will continue to issue bugfixes and presumably security-related updates, but no improvements to the core engine or to InScript. I think if he released iCab 3 to the community, people would probably pick it up and maintain it. On my OS 9 machines, I use a combination of WaMCoM 1.3.1 and iCab 3. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 6 22:47:49 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:47:49 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC>, <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com>, <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> <49133400.25168.4336193@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4913C874.B08D2A8B@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6 Nov 2008 at 18:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? > > Mostly the ads with scantily-clad women in them... The ones I remember as just too tacky for words were the "Ampl' Anny" ads in the back of 70's-era hobbyist computer mags. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 6 01:24:37 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:24:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: MP VAXen, was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <491290F9.7050800@crash.com> References: <200811052335.40025.pat@computer-refuge.org> <49127689.20809@crash.com> <200811060040.52759.pat@computer-refuge.org> <491290F9.7050800@crash.com> Message-ID: <200811060737.CAA22425@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > This also reminds me that I'd heard rumors of people tying more than > one KA630 together, but I don't have any details about that. I seem > to remember some implementation details from the relevant processor > handbook that seemed like they would have facilitated this, but those > books are out of reach... DEC deliberately made it difficult to get a KA630 without a MicroVAX around it - as it was explained to me, they didn't want people second-sourcing KA630-based machines. The KA620, which was just a KA630 diddled slightly so that VMS wouldn't run on it, was much more available. (The difference is, P0 and P1 page tables live in physical space rather than kernel virtual space.) But if you _did_ have a spare KA630, you could slap it into any AB/CD slot in a MicroVAX chassis, plug in the ID module and set it for an ID other than zero, and - assuming software - run a dual-CPU MicroVAX. I know about this because, in my time in academia, a researcher at the lab I was working at did just this for robot control - one CPU for the main OS, one to run the control law. (I wrote the (tiny) kernel that ran on the second CPU.) He actually found a hardware bug in the KA620/KA630 IPC hardware - it dropped some small percentage of interprocessor doorbell interrupts. Once located, DEC said it should never have worked at all; the only reason it did was that the board was overdesigned by a factor of something like five or ten - an etch run crossed the whole board and, when combined with the pullup resistor, the signal rise time was usually but not quite always quick enough. The fix was a reduced pullup resistor. I think that, as long as ECOs for KA6[23]0s were available, you could get the fix done for you just by knowing what to ask for; they didn't proactively push it out because most people weren't doing multiprocessor machines, and most of the people who were didn't mind losing a tiny fraction of the doorbell interrupts. (I think it was something on the order of single digits per thousand....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 04:49:10 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: <572409.37327.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, So who's taking the populated pdp8/m? Since Peter Turnbull is taking the pdp8/e and a pdp8/m is only an OEM pdp8/e with less slots; I'm wondering if the pdp8/m should go to another University. I'd be willing to drag it to Manchester - would it fit in my fourtwo ;-) ? In my case I'd try and see if Manchester University or MOSI would be interested. Man Uni would be a good target - since they created the first stored- program computer in 1948 and still has luminaries such as Steve Furber (who headed the team who developed the ARM). Moreover, I remember when I was there, there was an ORIGINAL pdp-8 standing in a corner on the first floor of the Kilburn building. MOSI would be a good target - since they house the reproduction of the the 1948 Baby. The second question of course is what to do with all these machines. I know Peter wants to put a demo OS on it and some demo software (CHKMOV ? / pdp8- music?). But is this the best way forward? I've seen some of the Bletchley Park videos, but frankly most of them look quite boring; certainly not as good as the YouTube series on programming the pdp11 where the student travels back in time to see how hard it was to develop and debug in the early 70s. How do you get students interested for more than 5 minutes in machines that 'can't' do anything ;-) ? How do you pass on and formalise the knowledge needed to maintain and preserve these relics? It seems to me that using the machines themselves (or replicas) would be a way forward. Museum or University courses where a team of students is assembled to recreate or restore an ancient mini and program their own demos. A 3 hour evening class once a week with a team of 10 would provide 3*10*40 = 1200 man-hours of experience.... -cheers from julz @P From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Nov 6 07:53:03 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 05:53:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Paul, You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left of: http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg Of course, that's another pdp-8! I have a DecMate III which I picked up at a Radio Rally, but it doesn't have an RX50, so I can't get it to do anything, apart from display its bios screen. -cheers from julz @P From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 6 10:32:29 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:32:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> References: <11764342.411911225923771137.JavaMail.servlet@kundenserver> Message-ID: <200811061641.LAA24987@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I need a terminal emulator for the DEC VT series of terminals, from > VT200 upwards. This is to connect to an OpenVMS box running > All-In-1, so it needs to support double width/height characters and > be a fairly good emulation. My mterm (in decansi mode) is mostly a pretty close emulation, for output. In particular, it does DW/DH. (Input is substantially harder, because of the lack of keyboard knowledge in X. Someday I need to look into whether XKB helps with this....) ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ for them as wants. > Does any one have any suggestions please? Even better if it supports > soft font downloads so I can use APL aswell. mterm currently doesn't, but if you can send me enough details on soft font downloads for me to implement them, I'm up for giving it a stab. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 6 10:48:53 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:48:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Video capturing from different video sources (Sun, SGI, etc) In-Reply-To: <4912265C.8010509@oldskool.org> References: <4912265C.8010509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200811061652.LAA25088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Standard Sun video is just analog RGB, like VGA, right? Which standard? :-) I've seen Suns use 5BNC (R, G, B, Hsync, Vsync) and 4BNC (R, G, B, composite sync). With 13W3 it's harder to tell; I suspect some use sync-on-green, but that's only a suspicion, and I also suspect it may be in addition to, rather than instead of, a separate sync line (or lines) - I've never had something fail for lack of sync, but for all I know that could be luck; most of the monitors I've used with Suns have been sold/designed for use with Suns.... And, of course, this is all tagged with the caveat that I have just about nothing to do with Suns more recent than their dropping Sbus. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 7 02:11:38 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:11:38 +0100 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <490FCC7A.81B9FAB1@cs.ubc.ca> <705E58FB-99DF-4A8B-8CD4-9FB079E1C9D0@colourfull.com> <4910A4F6.D18D2F6E@cs.ubc.ca> <4910E117.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> <49111B9E.1080809@jetnet.ab.ca> <4911C45D.7070309@brouhaha.com> <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20081107091138.965fc400.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:24:36 +0000 Pete Turnbull wrote: > Aren't all proper processors big-endian? :-) > > (Well, apart from the 6502, of course, and, er, the VAX, Alpha! > and, well an > ARM if configured the wrong way, and I suppose a PowerPC if > configured bass-ackwards...) Or MIPS, like DEC did it... Is the Cray YMP architecture big endian? NEC SX? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Nov 7 02:40:17 2008 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:40:17 +0000 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4913FEF1.70801@wickensonline.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard wrote: > In article <491354D4.5090808 at wickensonline.co.uk>, > Mark Wickens writes: > >> Anyway, I have answered my own question: IVT. Available free at >> http://www.softwarevoordelig.nl/en/ I was amazed at (a) how well it >> worked and (b) what a quality piece of software it is. I recommend it. > > I should point out that when you say "Available free" you mean that you > can download a free trial. The software itself is not free as in beer or > speech. > > Or did I miss something? As far as I'm aware the non-SSH version is free to use unconditionally. Mark. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkT/vEACgkQR0vMj/mgdjaCygCfeJxvZey2tfsXhChmZ4TMjf18 Iy4An2uF4C+kQ54mTPfT7Ev4xR5lzKbr =f1/M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 03:24:28 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:24:28 +0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4913547A.3010304@gmail.com> References: <4913547A.3010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: As a UKean and a love of paper history I have to say keep, but I know the problems of that request (I have a house full) when you catalogue I may have the missings, I must catalogue my mags Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 7 03:42:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:42:29 -0800 Subject: Systems based on Fairchild 9440 / 9445 In-Reply-To: <20081107091138.965fc400.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <4911C8C4.9020603@dunnington.plus.com>, <20081107091138.965fc400.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <49139D05.12613.5CD98FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2008 at 9:11, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Is the Cray YMP architecture big endian? > NEC SX? NEC SX, yes. (Byte addressable with 1, 2 and 4 byte fixed-point data in addition to 64-bit word-sized data). Cray Y-MP ? (word addressable; basic operating unit is a word). Cheers, Chuck From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Nov 7 03:43:23 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:43:23 -0000 Subject: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) References: <200811061754.mA6HsRiC093184@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4D4241EE-5EAF-4A6A-BBCE-0871B91E975A@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <002b01c940bd$4723e0a0$961ca8c0@mss.local> No problems, let us know when they release info. Bit of a way to travel though, hope the have a web presence. Mike www.soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex,UK) >> From: "Mike Hatch" >> Subject: Re: [personal] Poll (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West >> Sussex, UK) > >> >> >>> 1962 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape transport >>> + >>> paper tape used once a fortnight for a day except in winter (Germanium >>> hates cold) >> Ampex TM4's seems to be used by a lot of systems, we had them on the >> SDS9300, ICL gave me a job purely to repair TM4's on their contracted >> LEO >> III's. >> >>> c1963 ICT 1301 (includes CR,CP and LP) + 5 off TM4 Ampex tape >>> transport. >>> Dismantled 30 years ago. Sold and will be picked up for a new computer >>> museum's centrepiece on Tuesday. >> Which museum ? > > Its not open yet but it is in the far north west of England, I don't > think I can say much more than that, I don't want to steal their thunder. > > Roger. > > From ats at offog.org Fri Nov 7 04:39:02 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:39:02 +0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <49136CF4.8030202@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Thu\, 06 Nov 2008 16\:17\:24 -0600") References: <7A46A0AD47614F80BC0F9C189C5074DE@FLEXPC> <49136CF4.8030202@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > Plus there seem to be two different sites claiming to be for computer > shopper magazine subscriptions - which makes me think that at least > one of them must be bogus! There have been two different magazines called "Computer Shopper" for many years, one from the UK and one from the US. Both were on sale in newsagents in the UK at one point, so I have odd issues of both from the early 90s. If there is a museum in the UK that has the space to collect computer magazines, I've got quite a lot of Amiga and Acorn magazines in storage -- it would be nice to keep them somewhere where other people could read them... -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 09:04:03 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:04:03 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <491458E3.8010805@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> The collection we were offered is/was pretty complete - issue 1 to the present >> day, with just a few missing; the problem is that it's a huge about of storage >> space for something that would very rarely be required as a reference, and >> there are more important machine/manufacturer-specific things needing shelf >> space. > > Do you have a copy of "dBase2 v the bilge pump"? > Do you have a copy of Osborne's "The guy on the left"? > Do you have a copy of World Power System's ads? > Do you have a copy of the Otrona "little tramp" ad? > Do you have a copy of the IBM converable '57 Chevy ad? > Do you have a copy of the Apple ad "welcoming" IBM? > Do you have a copy of the Lisa ads? > How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? I'm actually wondering now - given the websites and comments from a couple in this thread, it seems like there might be two magazines with the same name. Ain't life complicated at times... The UK one (which is the one the museum's been offered) was well known for being very full of ads - with not much in the way of actual useful journalism - but that doesn't really rule out it being the one you're alluding to (I don't think I ever read it prior to 1990 or so, so I never got to see it in the glory days of computing) FWIW though, it is difficult to decide what to accept and what not. If space was infinite, it'd be accepted and all go onto archive shelving and be there "just in case", but in the real world that's just not practical :-( It's logical to me for a computer museum to be first port of call when it comes to researchers looking for computer magazines - but at the same time the anticipated demand for advertising-heavy "generic" computing magazines in comparison to other printed material out there is anticipated to be extremely low. Having them in scanned form would at least preserve the information "just in case" whilst not taking up physical space - but it'd be a heck of a scanning effort (I'm not even convinced they'd go through a sheet-fed scanner actually, the paper was so thin and clay-heavy). cheers Jules From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 09:27:52 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 10:27:52 -0500 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <491458E3.8010805@gmail.com> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> <491458E3.8010805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0811070727q5c1270abx92a8cee87dc50606@mail.gmail.com> I have a couple issues of the phonebook-sized Computer Shopper. They did have sections for more esoteric systems, including workstations, Ataris, Apples, Amigas, etc... They were small, but there. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 7 09:56:32 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:56:32 -0700 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:08:21 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > The whole lot was about > > 1700 lbs. worth of freight. > > Wimp. I have more than twice that weight of card and unit record > equipment coming on Tuesday. :-) This will be the largest single piece of hardware that I have, but mostly because its a giant countertop :-). The guy did say that he found the boot floppies in one of the totes of stuff that goes with it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 7 09:58:45 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:58:45 -0700 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:40:17 +0000. <4913FEF1.70801@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4913FEF1.70801 at wickensonline.co.uk>, Mark Wickens writes: > As far as I'm aware the non-SSH version is free to use unconditionally. Ah... digging further, this is true. They don't mention this anywhere except on their download page. Here is the direct link: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 10:35:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:35:10 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes graphic design workstation on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49146E3E.6070204@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > :-) > > This will be the largest single piece of hardware that I have, but mostly > because its a giant countertop :-) Put a sink in it and throw it in your kitchen... Can't wait to see some photos. cheers J. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 7 12:03:48 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:03:48 +0000 Subject: VT terminal emulator suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49148304.5060005@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2008 15:58, Richard wrote: > In article <4913FEF1.70801 at wickensonline.co.uk>, > Mark Wickens writes: > >> As far as I'm aware the non-SSH version is free to use unconditionally. > > Ah... digging further, this is true. > > They don't mention this anywhere except on their download page. Here is > the direct link: > Freeware, yes, for the last version on the page but it also says "no serial". The second-to-last has a ReadMe that says it's an evaluation version, and the SSH security features will be disabled after 30 days. However, it does also say that "the other protocols (telnet, rlogin, serial) will continue to function indefinitely." -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Nov 7 12:28:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 18:28:51 +0000 Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi Paul, > > You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left of: > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg > > Of course, that's another pdp-8! I have a DecMate III which I picked > up at a Radio Rally, but it doesn't have an RX50, so I can't get > it to do anything, apart from display its bios screen. I haven't tried it personally, but if you don't have an RX50 handy, you might try strapping a Teac FD55-GFR 5.25" drive to the RX33 settings and see if it works. You might be able to at least boot something up and watch it go. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Nov-2008 at 18:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -36.2 F (-37.9 C) Windchill -63.5 F (-53.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 11 Barometer 681.7 mb (10564 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Nov 7 12:38:43 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:38:43 -0700 Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> References: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> Message-ID: <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: >> Hi Paul, >> >> You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left of: >> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg The grey box there ? It looks like a tk50, or just scsi drive enclosure. There is an SCSI terminator on it ... From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 7 12:39:17 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:39:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:15:36 +0000. <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: In article <35f07a97253df715e0a00b60707798a3.squirrel at frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk>, paul at frixxon.co.uk writes: > I've put some photos of the 8/E and the two 8/Ms on a web site. I was > going to do the flickr thing but I'm trying to do real work as well, so I > apologise for the pics being uncropped and rather large. > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/ There are a number of interesting terminals in those pics. Too bad its all on the wrong side of the pond :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 7 13:45:04 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:45:04 -0700 Subject: vintage ads Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 15:14:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:14:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 6, 8 06:53:35 pm Message-ID: > It's hard to justify accepting - but at the same time the museum is the > logical first port of call for anyone looking for a Computer Shopper mag (for > whatever reason). Having scans of them all solves the problems nicely... I think it would be iorresponsible to accept something like this and then scan it and not ensure it then went to a 'good home'. I don't feel that scans are a replacement for the original docuements (They are a lot better than nothing, but I'd still rather have the originals of stuff that I am interested in). Some donors, including myself would be very upset if they heard that their donations had been scanned and not preserved in the paper form, and would probably never donate anything again. As a second issue, perhaps it's just me, but I find it very difficult to 'flip through' scanned documents in the same way that I can flip through the paper form. Something like this, which, I assume, is not going to be indexed, is going to be very difficult to use as a scan. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 15:07:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:07:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Julian Skidmore" at Nov 6, 8 05:53:03 am Message-ID: > Of course, that's another pdp-8! I have a DecMate III which I picked > up at a Radio Rally, but it doesn't have an RX50, so I can't get > it to do anything, apart from display its bios screen. I assume you realise that an RX50 is just a pair of 80 cylinder single head floppy drives with a common disk spindle and common head stepper. The 34 pin interface cable is essentially the standard pinout. The only trap for the unwary (if I am reading the schematic correctly) is that if side select is asseted (this would select the other side of a double-head drive, of course), then the RX50 _disables_ its track 00 output. I think at least one machine used that feature to detect a real RX50. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 7 15:48:08 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:48:08 -0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > I think it would be iorresponsible to accept something like this and > then scan it and not ensure it then went to a 'good home'. I don't > feel that scans are a replacement for the original docuements (They > are a lot better than nothing, but I'd still rather have the > originals of stuff that I am interested in). I'd agree about keeping the paper copy, although trying to prolong the life of said paper copy is going to be quite expensive. Also remember that the only realistic way of scanning something like this would be to chop off the spine. You can get such material rebound, but that adds to the expense. That (plus the fact that it saves a lot of effort) is why I would approach the pulisher first. I'd be surprised if Computer Shopper has any real "value" in old issues. If the publisher does have the issues in almost any kind of electronic form, conversion to PDF would surely be much easier than chopping, scanning, collating and checking. > Some donors, including myself would be very upset if they heard that > their donations had been scanned and not preserved in the paper form, > and would probably never donate anything again. It all boils down to what (if any) conditions the donor specified. If they just wanted to get rid of it, then knifing off the spine to scan seems fair enough. If they wanted it preserved for all time, then they should have said so (and maybe given it to an organisation that isn't having difficulty keeping fixing the holes in the roof). I presume that the various copyright libraries all have a complete set too, so this certainly shouldn't be the only set in existence. > As a second issue, perhaps it's just me, but I find it very difficult > to 'flip through' scanned documents in the same way that I can flip > through the paper form. Something like this, which, I assume, is not > going to be indexed, is going to be very difficult to use as a scan. Agreed. Although if you know what you want, it's much quicker to find it in a set of files that to wander up to the (groaning) attic and look for the relevant issue. Antonio From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 15:50:57 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:50:57 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4914B841.9070406@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> It's hard to justify accepting - but at the same time the museum is the >> logical first port of call for anyone looking for a Computer Shopper mag (for >> whatever reason). Having scans of them all solves the problems nicely... > > I think it would be iorresponsible to accept something like this and then > scan it and not ensure it then went to a 'good home'. I do know what you mean - but given how thick the magazines are and the nature of the paper (i.e. it's so thin it would have be perfectly flat to stand an chance of scanning without bleed-through) I'm not sure if there'd be any way of scanning them without chopping* the spines. Even with chopped spines, it's possible they wouldn't go through a sheet feeder anyway (paper too thin and glossy), so the idea of scanning them would be knocked on the head anyway! * a practice I really, really dislike, FWIW. I think this is the first time I've ever come close to thinking it might be an acceptable solution... > I don't feel that > scans are a replacement for the original docuements (They are a lot > better than nothing, but I'd still rather have the originals of stuff > that I am interested in). Yeah, I agree. But it would be a 'better than nothing' solution in this case. There is another avenue though, which is just to not have this particular magazine in the archive at all - and hope that such a complete set might be offered many years down the line when there's more (hopefully) more archive storage available (but Will's right - the nature of magazine paper's often such that it'll likely fast, so may not even last another ten years anyway) > Some donors, including myself would be very upset if they heard that > their donations had been scanned and not preserved in the paper form, and > would probably never donate anything again. I think this one's something of a special case, falling into the same category as other non-specific magazines - all other paper material does get kept, but the historical contribution that such magazines provide is actually very low. > As a second issue, perhaps it's just me, but I find it very difficult to > 'flip through' scanned documents in the same way that I can flip through > the paper form. Oh, for sure. Every once in a while I need something from bitsavers; I always print it out and keep a local copy on the shelf. I can't say for sure the reasons why, but a physical paper copy's a lot easier to deal with. > Something like this, which, I assume, is not going to be > indexed, is going to be very difficult to use as a scan. Probably not - the time required to do so would be better put to other uses, given the expected demand for these particular scans by researchers. cheers Jules From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Nov 7 13:20:11 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 13:20:11 -0600 Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> References: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com><20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I don't think so. That's a standard DEC enclosure for various small computer systems. DECmate 3 rings a bell, but I think it was also used for various VAXen. VAX2100? paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 1:39 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: >> Hi Paul, >> >> You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left of: >> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg The grey box there ? It looks like a tk50, or just scsi drive enclosure. There is an SCSI terminator on it ... From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Nov 7 16:10:49 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:10:49 -0600 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4914BCE9.30202@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> It's hard to justify accepting - but at the same time the museum is the >> logical first port of call for anyone looking for a Computer Shopper mag (for >> whatever reason). Having scans of them all solves the problems nicely... > > I think it would be iorresponsible to accept something like this and then > scan it and not ensure it then went to a 'good home'. I don't feel that > scans are a replacement for the original docuements (They are a lot > better than nothing, but I'd still rather have the originals of stuff > that I am interested in). > > Some donors, including myself would be very upset if they heard that > their donations had been scanned and not preserved in the paper form, and > would probably never donate anything again. > > As a second issue, perhaps it's just me, but I find it very difficult to > 'flip through' scanned documents in the same way that I can flip through > the paper form. Something like this, which, I assume, is not going to be > indexed, is going to be very difficult to use as a scan. In the real world "good enough" trumps "ideally." Without deep pockets, such as Google's, the only way to scan a large volume like this is to cut the spines off the magazines and use an ADF scanner. Look at what Al Kossow has managed to do with bitsavers. Yup, a lot of "collectible" documents have undergone spine-ectomies, but had he simply rented a warehouse and shelved everything, I'd guess that none of us would have heard, much less benefited from, bitsavers. Yup, it would be great if someone spent the time and effort to scan them page by page, index them, and find a new home for the original copies, and the person who received the paper copies then stored them in climate controlled conditions. But that is unlikely, in the general case, to ever happen. I haven't ever seen the UK Computer Shopper, but if was anything like the US version, there is about 95% redundancy between any two consecutive issues -- the same adds printed each month, perhaps with slightly different prices, in a somewhat different order each month. Too bad there isn't an easy way to take advantage of that redundancy to further compress the collection. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 7 17:39:42 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:39:42 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4914D1BE.2050309@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2008 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > I assume you realise that an RX50 is just a pair of 80 cylinder single > head floppy drives with a common disk spindle and common head stepper. > The 34 pin interface cable is essentially the standard pinout. The only > trap for the unwary (if I am reading the schematic correctly) is that if > side select is asseted (this would select the other side of a double-head > drive, of course), then the RX50 _disables_ its track 00 output. I think > at least one machine used that feature to detect a real RX50. I found that out the many years ago, trying to get non-DEC drives to work on several variants of the RQDX1 and RQDX2. I came up with a little 1-LSTTL circuit to kludge the effect. I've a feeling that may be how an RQDX3 tells the difference between RX50 and RX33 drives. ISTR there's also something about the index pulse that meant some drives didn't work, something up the way the controller checks the drive is up to speed. Ah, yes, see below. Other differences: 1) The RX50 doesn't use or need the HeadLoad/InUse signal on pin 4. 2) The RX50 will only respond to step pulses if it is selected *and* Motor On is valid; many SA400-type drives will step even if MotorOn is de-asserted. 3) The Ready signal on Pin 34 is asserted whenever the drive is selected, has a disk in it, and the door is closed. Most drives only assert Ready when the drive is up to speed (often by timing the interval between index pulses). The inherent delay on non-genuine-RX50s means that some RQDX controllers don't see the drive is Ready immediately, and take it offline. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 7 17:43:25 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:43:25 +0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4914D29D.5030209@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/11/2008 21:48, Antonio Carlini wrote: > That (plus the fact that it saves a lot of effort) is why I would > approach the pulisher first. I'd be surprised if Computer Shopper has > any real "value" in old issues. If the publisher does have the issues > in almost any kind of electronic form, conversion to PDF would surely > be much easier than chopping, scanning, collating and checking. They might not mind about their copyright in editorial material and articles, but they probably don't hold the copyrights for a lot of advertising material. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 7 18:32:59 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 00:32:59 -0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4914D29D.5030209@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <8A46EB868EFA425FAA511942E4219F60@FLEXPC> Pete Turnbull wrote: > They might not mind about their copyright in editorial material and > articles, but they probably don't hold the copyrights for a lot of > advertising material. I cannot find my Practical Electronics back issues on CD right now. But I'm sure I've seen an electronic edition of either EPE or Elektor recently and it had advertising. So they might well not own the advertising, but I'd be very surprised if they could not distribute the magazine in its entirety. Anyway, if someone asks, we'll know! Antonio From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Nov 7 18:46:10 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:46:10 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals In-Reply-To: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> References: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> Message-ID: <4914E152.60900@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Russell: I suspect most of them figured out the "basic trick", but I'm not sure. > > Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? > > Russell: That you could do everything based on the spaceship unit vector. I'm afraid I don't understand what he's getting at. Can someone explain the "basic trick" in a bit more detail? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 7 19:40:40 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:40:40 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? Message-ID: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> > Look at what Al Kossow has managed to do with bitsavers. Yup, a lot of > "collectible" documents have undergone spine-ectomies, but had he simply > rented a warehouse and shelved everything, I'd guess that none of us > would have heard, much less benefited from, bitsavers. > In the real world "good enough" trumps "ideally." Exactly. You can collect paper of marginal historical value faster and with greater volume than you can afford to store it. There is absolutely no way that I can afford to keep the paper that I currently have, and have been working on triage and recycling for several years now. Bitsavers is just under 100gb right now. That is a LOT of linear feet of paper! I've been scanning hundreds of magazine dups at CHM for the past two months just to OCR and index the text for research on the exhibit we are building. I'm not concerned about the images of the ads (including the WPS ones). We approached other institutions, and they were not interested in the paper. The spines were cut, and have been scanned using a high speed sheet feeder. They are worth more to researchers as indexed bits than as pallets of dead trees. Newsprint is an even worse problem. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 22:26:03 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 00:26:03 -0400 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <4914BCE9.30202@pacbell.net> References: <4914BCE9.30202@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > I haven't ever seen the UK Computer Shopper, but if was anything like the US > version, there is about 95% redundancy between any two consecutive issues -- > the same adds printed each month, perhaps with slightly different prices, in > a somewhat different order each month. Too bad there isn't an easy way to > take advantage of that redundancy to further compress the collection. That redundancy is extremely important information. It provides very good information for people tracking the marketing history. It ain't all about bits and chips... -- Will From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Nov 8 00:43:57 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:43:57 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi once more.... I got the case of the system now but it is in a bad condition.... looks I've much work to do restoring it... Unfortunally the power supplies are broken and no LOCK/START/RESET panel :( RAM-Board, Inst.Tape, Tape-Drive and hdd still missing..... :( -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Nov 8 00:45:50 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 07:45:50 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081108074550.3ed631b8.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I got the case of the system now but it is in a bad condition.... looks > I've much work to do restoring it... > http://www.pofo.de/S8000/pictures/case/ -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat Nov 8 01:02:26 2008 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 02:02:26 -0500 Subject: WTB/WTT : BeBox Bezel/Parts In-Reply-To: <49148304.5060005@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49148304.5060005@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I have a bebox that I took into the office, and someone there knocked the top off the bezel, and the decal on the bezel also went 'missing'. Apart from that, the box is fine, so I'm looking for a new bezel. I can either pay for it, or trade for it (I have a lot of NeXT equipment/ part/etc. I could trade). From bqt at softjar.se Fri Nov 7 16:20:24 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:20:24 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <200811071800.mA7I0I89012434@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811071800.mA7I0I89012434@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4914BF28.2050503@softjar.se> Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > So who's taking the populated pdp8/m? > > Since Peter Turnbull is taking the pdp8/e and a pdp8/m is only an > OEM pdp8/e with less slots; I'm wondering if the pdp8/m should go > to another University. Actually, the 8/m is the OEM of the 8/f. There are more differences between the 8/e and 8/m and 8/f than just less slots, but the differences aren't normally that relevant. I think I still have both an 8/m and an 8/f around in my basement. Johnny From jeffj at panix.com Fri Nov 7 20:25:05 2008 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 21:25:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer Shopper scans: definitely worthy In-Reply-To: <200811071801.mA7I13kf012476@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811071801.mA7I13kf012476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "William Donzelli" > Subject: Re: Computer Shopper scans? > No, not that newsprint crap. It will start disintegrating within 50 > years, and the costs associated with acid paper stabilization are very > high. I see how the hobby publications of the 1940s are falling apart > now, and Computer Shopper is in the same danger. And thus all my friends' paperback collections literally turning to dust. > Like it, or (mostly) not, Computer Shopper > is a very important slice of computing history. I'm not so sure of that. It's not a scholarly journal such as the Journal of the ACM, but it shows the state of the art for hobbyist & business machines, such as price & capacity of hard drives, CPU, RAM, when certain peripherals were ubiquitious, etc. Some of the ads were memorable, particularly for things that didn't happen as anticipated. It also listed BBSs, which was the only way for online/virtual communities before the Internet and well-connected services such as GEnie, Prodigy, Delphi, BIX, ... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Nov 8 04:04:31 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 08:04:31 -0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de><20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074550.3ed631b8.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <06ca01c94189$92d0c410$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> I got the case of the system now but it is in a bad condition.... looks >> I've much work to do restoring it... >> > http://www.pofo.de/S8000/pictures/case/ Little sugestion: Why not create a thumbnail page? There are automatic thumbnail generators, which build a page for you...It is always a hassle when you se a dir of many interesting pictures, and you have to load one by one to see what is interesting... :o) From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 05:00:35 2008 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:00:35 -0000 (UTC) Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> References: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9df35a2ccc81c03c42f26034e33609b5.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: >>> >>> You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left >>> of: >>> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg > > The grey box there ? It looks like a tk50, or just scsi drive enclosure. > There is an SCSI terminator on it ... You're right, it is a TK50. I accidentally responded off-list to Julian. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Nov 8 07:47:26 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:47:26 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals In-Reply-To: <4914E152.60900@oldskool.org> References: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> <4914E152.60900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <8634.1226152046@mini> Jim Leonard wrote: >Al Kossow wrote: >> Russell: I suspect most of them figured out the "basic trick", but I'm not >sure. >> >> Kossow: What "basic trick" were you thinking of? >> >> Russell: That you could do everything based on the spaceship unit vector. > >I'm afraid I don't understand what he's getting at. Can someone explain >the "basic trick" in a bit more detail? I'll take a stab. I just wrote a "spacewar" the other day as an, ahem, unit test of a new lcd display driver and event (keypad) driver. It helped me find some bugs! :-) The ship moves in 2d space with an orientation of 0-359 degrees. In order to "move" the ship, typically done once per game loop, you need to add a delta-x and delta-y to the current x,y location. The delta-x,delta-y represents the ship's velocity, it's moving at, say 2-pixels-per-frame (like 20 mph would be to a car). To calculate the velocity you need to add acceleration to the delta. Often this is "thrust". The thrust has to be effected by the direction of the nozzle, which is generally fixed as the opposite of the ship's nose. I just used sin & cos because I have a computer (PXA320) which is many many orders of magnitude faster. But I suspect instead they had a table of "unit vectors" based on the direction. Essentially it's a sin & cos table indexed by 0-359 which produces fractional numbers from -1 to 1. On a pdp-1 I would guess they would use fixed point math, but I've never looked at the source code. The last time I wrote one was in 1980 on a pdp-11 using fortran. I think I used sin & cos there also but they could easily have been implemented using a lookup table for all I know. Or maybe I used a lookup table. I don't remember. (wish I'd saved that source code; apparently a few years after I left the dept head had to confiscate all the floppies with the game on it as there was some sort of rampant competition going on between all the grad students and nothing was getting done :-) Anyway, if you know the direction of the item you can figure out the "unit vector" (unit meaning it's normalized to 1) and then you can scale that anyway you like to get the proper motion. as always, apologies if I'm off base. -brad From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Nov 8 08:13:33 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 07:13:33 -0700 Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) In-Reply-To: <9df35a2ccc81c03c42f26034e33609b5.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> References: <971769.58853.qm@web37108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081107182851.GA16882@usap.gov> <49148B33.1000507@e-bbes.com> <9df35a2ccc81c03c42f26034e33609b5.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Message-ID: <49159E8D.2090403@e-bbes.com> paul at frixxon.co.uk wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: >>>> You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left >>>> of: >>>> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg >> The grey box there ? It looks like a tk50, or just scsi drive enclosure. >> There is an SCSI terminator on it ... > > You're right, it is a TK50. I accidentally responded off-list to Julian. Thanks for clearing this up, Paul. I was already thinking about taking pictures of the "behinds" of the various Vax2000, TK50, DecmateIII, SCSI-enlcosures" for comparison ;-) From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Nov 8 13:20:00 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 11:20:00 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans: definitely worthy In-Reply-To: References: <200811071801.mA7I13kf012476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4915E660.8050908@garlic.com> Jeff Jonas ????????: >> From: "William Donzelli" >> Subject: Re: Computer Shopper scans? > >> Like it, or (mostly) not, Computer Shopper >> is a very important slice of computing history. > > I'm not so sure of that. > It's not a scholarly journal such as the Journal of the ACM, > but it shows the state of the art for hobbyist & business machines, > such as price & capacity of hard drives, CPU, RAM, > when certain peripherals were ubiquitious, etc. > I found it far more consistently interesting than the ACM's journal. It was the Sears Catalog and Farmer's Almanac for computing at the time, a broader overview of computer technology than any journal ever was and it followed the changes in applied technology. That is what makes it historically significant, like Nuts-n-Volts, QST, and quite a few other technical rags. It has information you can't find anywhere else. Just because it's full of adverts does not make it unworthy of preservation. A quick and cheap alternative to chemically preservation is to keep the paper very dry. This will drastically slow the oxidation of the paper by the acid. This could be done with a hermetically sealed container and effective dehumidifying compounds or by purging the container with dry nitrogen. == jd -- From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Nov 8 14:46:43 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:46:43 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <06ca01c94189$92d0c410$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074550.3ed631b8.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <06ca01c94189$92d0c410$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20081108214643.5c9ba112.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Little sugestion: > Why not create a thumbnail page? There are automatic thumbnail > generators, which build a page for you... Yeah I know some... I'm just too lazy ;) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Nov 8 15:30:02 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 13:30:02 -0800 Subject: Computer Shopper scans: definitely worthy In-Reply-To: <4915E660.8050908@garlic.com> References: <200811071801.mA7I13kf012476@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4915E660.8050908@garlic.com> Message-ID: <491604DA.10003@crash.com> One of the interesting features of the US version of the phonebook-sized Shopper of the late 80s/early 90s was Stan Veit's column about early microcomputer companies. These were later compiled into a book, but my copy is currently out of reach. --S. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 8 15:33:14 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 15:33:14 -0600 Subject: Edmund Scientific NIM Message-ID: Hi all, I bet somebody has some documents from this toy. I am starting to think about christmas, and all sorts of mechanical computers and toys. One of the other fun computer tricks I recall, is using 3x5 cards. You can punch a row of holes in the top edge, and selectivley cut slots thru to the top. So, a deck of cards with numbers on them, and appropriately cut slots, you can sort the deck with a pen, a binary sort by lifting the cards (its a bubble sort) What other kid ideas do you guys have? I'm going to bring a stepper controlled etch a sketch. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Nov 8 16:43:28 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:43:28 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 Spacewar! program internals In-Reply-To: <8634.1226152046@mini> References: <48FE18DA.8060402@spies.com> <4914E152.60900@oldskool.org> <8634.1226152046@mini> Message-ID: <49161610.2060404@oldskool.org> Brad Parker wrote: > Anyway, if you know the direction of the item you can figure out the > "unit vector" (unit meaning it's normalized to 1) and then you can scale > that anyway you like to get the proper motion. Thanks, this was helpful. I suppose to truly understand it I should write my own spacewar clone... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Nov 8 16:45:23 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:45:23 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <1EED75A32D8249EBB29B306557714E99@NFORCE4> Message-ID: <49161682.B5D21E0B@cs.ubc.ca> Erik Klein wrote: > > Tom Uban Wrote: > > >Please be sure to give us the heads up when it is listed. > > Here ya'll go: eBay Item Number 330282554507 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item > =330282554507 > > I'm sure it'll be out of my price range soon. :) So, it just went for $1,180 (!!). That's $59 per plane. As expensive as it was, I don't know if it's enough to keep us from now seeing 20 planes filtering out onto ebay... From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 8 18:19:07 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:19:07 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core Message-ID: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> > I don't know if it's enough to keep us from now seeing > 20 planes filtering out onto ebay... Unlikely. "posthuman" buys a lot. Sadly, it will not be part of the CHM collection. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Nov 8 20:22:28 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:22:28 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49164964.FAF983A3@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > > I don't know if it's enough to keep us from now seeing > > 20 planes filtering out onto ebay... > > Unlikely. "posthuman" buys a lot. > Sadly, it will not be part of the CHM collection. Which way do you mean that: unlikely to be enough to keep it from being broken up, or unlikely that it will be broken up? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 00:32:34 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:32:34 -0400 Subject: Quickdisks Message-ID: What is the availability of 2.8 inch "Quickdisk" drives and disks? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 9 01:12:35 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 23:12:35 -0800 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49161CE3.20991.7CEFEAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2008 at 2:32, William Donzelli wrote: > What is the availability of 2.8 inch "Quickdisk" drives and disks? There's a seller who's selling the 2.8" Smith-Corona-labeled DataDisk for about $10 the each new. Drives? Probably cheapest to find a Smith-Corona PWP with one and scavenge it from there. Bare drives seem to command an obscene premium as they're used in some old Roland synths. Cheers, Chuck From g-wright at att.net Sun Nov 9 01:37:53 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 07:37:53 +0000 Subject: Wanted: SCO Xenix rel 2.2 Ver 286AT Message-ID: <110920080737.21594.49169350000F31E30000545A22228869349B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Not too sure what I did with mine, but is cannot find the activation Key info. I'm trying to get a old Wyse LoadStar 286 Xenix box going and this version seems to be able to handle the serial port as console. I can't get any of the other versions I have to take the serial port as console they all switch as they boot or error when the run hardware tests. Mine disks have a part number on it of 12866, not sure if this means anything. (Xenix Sys V release 2.2 version 286AT) The Wyse LoadStar is just a 286 PC with special ROMs. and no Video card or Key board. - Jerry From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Nov 9 03:52:30 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 09:52:30 +0000 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4916B2DE.6000809@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: > What is the availability of 2.8 inch "Quickdisk" drives and disks? > I saw a bunch of them on eBay recently, previously used for an old Akai sampler. The Akai S612 used to have an external disk drive box that used a QuickDisk, otherwise it would load and save samples to tape - all 48k of memory! Gordon From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Nov 9 04:23:49 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:23:49 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <06ca01c94189$92d0c410$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20081030064644.f7f2f390.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074357.f36ab1dd.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20081108074550.3ed631b8.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <06ca01c94189$92d0c410$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20081109112349.1abcbf87.lehmann@ans-netz.de> better? ;) http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/S8000 -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From msalay at one.net Sat Nov 8 15:25:23 2008 From: msalay at one.net (Mike Salay) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:25:23 -0500 Subject: Kontron EPP-80 EPROM Burner Message-ID: <000d01c941e8$8304d580$2301a8c0@amd4800> Hello, Sometime back you posted looking for info on the Kontron EPP-80 EPROM programmer. I have such a unit, but need to find a manual and fellow users. I'd appreciate if you can drop me a quick note with anything you know. thanks, Mike From jason at havnet.com Sat Nov 8 10:11:25 2008 From: jason at havnet.com (HavNet) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 16:11:25 +0000 Subject: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) Message-ID: <3360c7d3c1aebcd1932351024394d465@webmail.havnetmail.net> Hi Paul, Sorry for the direct email, but I have missed the beginning of your thread regarding the PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex. Is any of the equipment available? I ask on behalf of the Centre for Computing History in Suffolk. See : www.computinghistory.org.uk Sorry if this email is out of place. Kind Regards Jason Fitzpatrick -----Original Message----- From: paul at frixxon.co.uk Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:00:35 -0000 (UTC) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECmateIII (was Re: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK) > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 06, 2008 at 05:53:03AM -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: >>> >>> You also have what looks very much like a DecMate in the bottom, left >>> of: >>> http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/04112008377.jpg > > The grey box there ? It looks like a tk50, or just scsi drive enclosure. > There is an SCSI terminator on it ... You're right, it is a TK50. I accidentally responded off-list to Julian. From vze323vd at verizon.net Sun Nov 9 03:15:40 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:15:40 -0500 Subject: Datec? In-Reply-To: <002901c94091$a22ec720$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: Evan, do you mean Datek? They were electronics liquidators. Well, they did electronics and lots of other stuff to. It was a catalog(ue) company IIRC. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:31 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Datec? > > > Is anyone familiar with a company called Datec Inc., based in Colorado > Springs in the mid-1980s? > From trebor72 at execpc.com Sun Nov 9 07:08:02 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 07:08:02 -0600 Subject: Quimax PX 22 Message-ID: <4916E0B2.3070702@execpc.com> I have a Quimax PX 22. I had it hooked up to my PC XT to a CGA card. It was working but began to heat up so I shut it off. Tried to bring it up using a A/C VARIAC. But nothing. It has the ability to display in Red or Green or White. Is it worth fixing. Is anyone interested in IT. It might be an easy fix Couple of CAPS. From evan at snarc.net Sun Nov 9 07:17:10 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 13:17:10 +0000 Subject: Datec? Message-ID: <1719742419-1226236628-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1243845479-@bxe111.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> No ------Original Message------ From: Greg Manuel \(V\) Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Datec? Sent: Nov 9, 2008 4:15 AM Evan, do you mean Datek? They were electronics liquidators. Well, they did electronics and lots of other stuff to. It was a catalog(ue) company IIRC. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 11:31 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Datec? > > > Is anyone familiar with a company called Datec Inc., based in Colorado > Springs in the mid-1980s? > From mardy at voysys.com Sun Nov 9 10:33:53 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:33:53 -0500 Subject: Free: Cipher Model 920 9-track tape drive Message-ID: <8CEADE8C-BA02-4880-B36F-A904E8CB5538@voysys.com> I have a brand new Cipher Model 920 9-track tape drive that needs a new home. It can do either 800 or 1600 BPI and uses what I believe is a Pertec like interface, i.e. Pertec compatible signals, but non- standard connector pinouts. It also comes with a complete set of documentation and schematics. From the picture below, you can see that it is still in the original shipping frame with all of the protective paper still on the plexiglass. http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Cipher920/front.jpg It was given to me for free by someone else on the list, so I'm going to continue the tradition and offer it for free as well. For local pickup, I am located in Southern New Hamphire, but I am also willing to ship it if someone is willing to cover the shipping costs. I have already crated it. I am guessing that it will be somewhere around $150.00 to ship it within the continental US. -Mardy From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 10:42:01 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 08:42:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <200811081800.mA8I0KwX027656@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Here's a video of a 1985 US TV computer show that I believe was broadcast on PBS stations. Products reviewed are Atari 800, Commodore 64, Amiga IBM PC Emulator, Commodore Amiga, Atari 520, STNEO Paint: http://www.archive.org/details/Amigaand1985 Found this accidentally and I'll bet there are many more computer related videos on this site that would be interesting to watch. If you find some more, please post the links here. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 9 13:35:43 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 13:35:43 -0600 Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49173B8F.4030902@oldskool.org> William Blair wrote: > Found this accidentally and I'll bet there are many more computer related videos on this site that would be interesting to watch. If you find some more, please post the links here. That would be a lot of links, since the entire Computer Chronicles series was donated to the Internet Archive. Rather than go through all of them, I've been searching their Moving Pictures archives for subjects that interest me (and inevitably a few Computer Chronicles episodes show up). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Nov 9 20:45:25 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:45:25 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in reading out a LVDC core stack. If successful, this will likely be the only example of the LVDC flight software left in existence. Please see http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1891.0 From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Nov 9 20:54:50 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 20:54:50 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in reading > out a LVDC core stack. > If successful, this will likely be the only example of the LVDC flight > software left in existence. > > Please see http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1891.0 That could be very tricky if you attempt to read it out -- reading core is destructive, so if rig up an interface and you don't capture the data the first time, you might not get a second chance. People on this list have talked about some film that changes polarization or color or something in the presence of magnetic fields. Core is orders of magnitude larger than the bit domains of floppy disks, so using such a film to read out the core state non-destructively seems like a good idea. I haven't read the thread linked to above, so maybe this is already under consideration. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Nov 9 21:01:09 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 21:01:09 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <181d17073e00a614c6fb34a8d4ecd48e@lunar-tokyo.net> Yeah, we've been over that, and were considering getting some of the memory interface logic from the computer, but it seems the backplanes varied widely, so using the original logic might be harder than rolling our own. On Nov 9, 2008, at 8:54 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in >> reading out a LVDC core stack. >> If successful, this will likely be the only example of the LVDC >> flight software left in existence. >> Please see >> http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=1891.0 > > That could be very tricky if you attempt to read it out -- reading > core is destructive, so if rig up an interface and you don't capture > the data the first time, you might not get a second chance. > > People on this list have talked about some film that changes > polarization or color or something in the presence of magnetic fields. > Core is orders of magnitude larger than the bit domains of floppy > disks, so using such a film to read out the core state > non-destructively seems like a good idea. > > I haven't read the thread linked to above, so maybe this is already > under consideration. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Nov 9 21:35:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 20:35:39 -0700 Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 09 Nov 2008 08:42:01 -0800. <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is the link for the series: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 21:56:23 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:56:23 -0500 Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200811081800.mA8I0KwX027656@dewey.classiccmp.org> <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220811091956x722ea7f5v2f31d2bc17be813b@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM, William Blair wrote: > Here's a video of a 1985 US TV computer show that I believe was broadcast on PBS stations. Products reviewed are Atari 800, Commodore 64, Amiga IBM PC Emulator, Commodore Amiga, Atari 520, STNEO Paint: > > http://www.archive.org/details/Amigaand1985 > > Found this accidentally and I'll bet there are many more computer related videos on this site that would be interesting to watch. If you find some more, please post the links here. > > As a Unix bigot, I had to watch the two episodes on Unix (1985 and 1989), and I've got to say that seeing those took most of the fun out of it. Mostly repeating "But what about Unix's difficult user interface, and the reliability problems?", as though their own favored bitty boxes didn't store their data and operating systems on floppy disks and run without memory protection. And calling a minicomputer a "mainframe" is not a good way to earn credibility. Also, I wish they'd do something more than show off paint programs... Still, interesting bits of history--thanks! John "Bitter Bastard" Floren -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 9 22:53:23 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:53:23 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT - Sources of magneto-optical disks? In-Reply-To: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <12025.27562.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4917BE43.3030908@compsys.to> >Mr Ian Primus wrote: >[Snip] > >So, anyone have a good source of these critters? I remember buying a few boxes many years ago (back when the Zip drive was the great new thing) from an online media store, and paying about five bucks apiece for brand new 128mb cartridges. Surely the prices should have come down, but the the cheapest I can find them is $7 each. I'd really like to just buy some used cartridges, but I guess the used media market isn't what it was, I don't really even see used tapes much anymore. > >So, anyone know of a source of 128mb, 230mb, 540mb or 640mb 3 1/2" disks, or the 600mb 5 1/4" disks? > > Jerome Fine replies: I have at least 100 of the 5 1/4" 600 MB disks. They have 512 bytes per sector, which is probably the type you are looking for. Note that they are actually double sided with 295 MB per side or 590 MB total capacity while the drives are able to read / write ONLY one side at a time. Note that shipping will be from Toronto, Ontario which is probably much more expensive than USPS within the US. As for tapes, I also have a number of TK70 tapes which are probably good, although I have not used them for a few years. The TK70 tapes can also be used on a TK50 if they are bulk erased first. Contact me off list if you want and MO disks or the tapes. I also have a number of the drives, specifically Sony SMO S-501. The interface for the drives is standard SCSI and each drive can be set as drive 0 to 3, if I remember correctly. The drive interface has the standard 50 pin external centronics male connector. At the moment, I still use the drives to transfer between a PDP-11 and a PC with both running RT-11 (with the PC running RT-11 using Ersatz-11). I hope to still be able to use the drives when I upgrade to a new PC with Windows XP some time next year. I have successfully run RT-11 using Ersatz-11 under Windows XP, but I don't know if I can also use the Sony SMO S-501 drives as well. If successful, I will discard the old PC running Windows 98SE. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Nov 9 15:30:59 2008 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:30:59 -0500 Subject: PCMCIA Prototyping board on Ebay... Message-ID: <000001c942b2$76e76d60$64b64820$@com> This is a very nice prototyping board for the PCMICA: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=260303159467 From josecvalle at gmail.com Sun Nov 9 19:51:30 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 23:51:30 -0200 Subject: Free: Cipher Model 920 9-track tape drive In-Reply-To: <8CEADE8C-BA02-4880-B36F-A904E8CB5538@voysys.com> References: <8CEADE8C-BA02-4880-B36F-A904E8CB5538@voysys.com> Message-ID: Marden, I would like to get it, but, I am in Brazil. I am curator of Computer Museum Brazil. I was technician of that tape drive.. I bought a in 80?s, in Anhaeim, CA, I paid 3,500.00 brand new, and I sent to Brazil, good times... See Yha Jose Carlos Valle 2008/11/9 Marden P. Marshall > I have a brand new Cipher Model 920 9-track tape drive that needs a new > home. It can do either 800 or 1600 BPI and uses what I believe is a Pertec > like interface, i.e. Pertec compatible signals, but non-standard connector > pinouts. It also comes with a complete set of documentation and schematics. > From the picture below, you can see that it is still in the original > shipping frame with all of the protective paper still on the plexiglass. > > http://web.mac.com/mardy/iWeb/Cipher920/front.jpg > > It was given to me for free by someone else on the list, so I'm going to > continue the tradition and offer it for free as well. For local pickup, I > am located in Southern New Hamphire, but I am also willing to ship it if > someone is willing to cover the shipping costs. I have already crated it. > I am guessing that it will be somewhere around $150.00 to ship it within > the continental US. > > -Mardy > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle - Presidente Museu do Computador Fones: (11) 4666-7545 e (11) 8794-6730 Informa??es sobre doa??es em nosso Blog: FAVOR: Envie uma copia do formulario para este email. e mantenha uma c?pia junto com os equipamentos. obrigado http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br/?page_id=448 Visite nosso site: http://www.museudocomputador.com.br From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 10 05:15:02 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:15:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking SS20 Message-ID: For some reason I'm thinking about getting a Sparc 20. Does anyone have any lying around to trade? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Nov 10 06:18:58 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:18:58 -0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a drive via IBM? Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! Antonio From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 06:31:30 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:31:30 +0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/10 Antonio Carlini : > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm > > An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. > > I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a > drive via IBM? > > Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! > > Antonio :?) I was about to post that link, too. I suspect that the museum might welcome contacts from anyone with experience of restoring such elderly kit - it sounds from the news story that they are rather daunted by the task! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 10 06:36:42 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:36:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm > > An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. > > I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a > drive via IBM? > > Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! Why do they call it a "tape recorder". To me, that implies a device for recording audio or video. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 06:44:40 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:40 +0000 Subject: Computer Shopper scans? In-Reply-To: <491458E3.8010805@gmail.com> References: <8A9CB52537544A89826199DA12FABC99@FLEXPC> <4913918F.3050205@gmail.com> <20081106175407.I12730@shell.lmi.net> <491458E3.8010805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0811100444m55fdd3c6w3ca43e4bcb9efafe@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/7 Jules Richardson : > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> The collection we were offered is/was pretty complete - issue 1 to the >>> present >>> day, with just a few missing; the problem is that it's a huge about of >>> storage >>> space for something that would very rarely be required as a reference, >>> and >>> there are more important machine/manufacturer-specific things needing >>> shelf >>> space. >> >> Do you have a copy of "dBase2 v the bilge pump"? >> Do you have a copy of Osborne's "The guy on the left"? >> Do you have a copy of World Power System's ads? >> Do you have a copy of the Otrona "little tramp" ad? >> Do you have a copy of the IBM converable '57 Chevy ad? >> Do you have a copy of the Apple ad "welcoming" IBM? >> Do you have a copy of the Lisa ads? >> How many truly memorable early ads can you recall? > > I'm actually wondering now - given the websites and comments from a couple > in this thread, it seems like there might be two magazines with the same > name. Ain't life complicated at times... Er, no, not really. This kind of thing is quite common. I used to work for Dennis Publishing, the publishers of the UK edition of Computer Shopper. The following is from memory when I was there. They have no connection with the US publishers - Dennis just bought the rights to use the name in the UK. No US content was reused or anything; they even designed their own, vaguely similar logo for the UK mag as they hadn't bought the US logo. Both mags were designed to be similar, though: large, fat high-volume titles on low-quality, cheap newspaper stock, with articles on relatively small, minority-interest computer types. The SF author Charles Stross (a friend of mine, as it happens) wrote CS UK's Linux column from its inception to when he quit to become a full-time novelist. http://www.antipope.org/charlie/ I also know one of the chaps who used to write the Acorn RISC OS column in /Shopper/, Jim Nagel. That column was a mine of info, too. http://www.archivemag.co.uk/ Later on, about 5-10y later, the US company that published the original Shopper opened a UK office. (Ziff Davis, as I recall.) By then I was a freelancer and I wrote for them as well as Dennis. Because ZD didn't have the UK rights to the Shopper name, they could not publish it here. Such deals go both ways - I have a feeling that MacUser started out as a UK title and Dennis sold the rights in the US. Certainly that's what happened with Maxim: UK first, later US. > The UK one (which is the one the museum's been offered) was well known for > being very full of ads - with not much in the way of actual useful > journalism - but that doesn't really rule out it being the one you're > alluding to (I don't think I ever read it prior to 1990 or so, so I never > got to see it in the glory days of computing) It was full of ads, yes, but the writing was actually pretty good. The late great MacBiter was consistently brilliant, for instance. > FWIW though, it is difficult to decide what to accept and what not. If space > was infinite, it'd be accepted and all go onto archive shelving and be there > "just in case", but in the real world that's just not practical :-( It's > logical to me for a computer museum to be first port of call when it comes > to researchers looking for computer magazines - but at the same time the > anticipated demand for advertising-heavy "generic" computing magazines in > comparison to other printed material out there is anticipated to be > extremely low. > > Having them in scanned form would at least preserve the information "just in > case" whilst not taking up physical space - but it'd be a heck of a scanning > effort (I'm not even convinced they'd go through a sheet-fed scanner > actually, the paper was so thin and clay-heavy). -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From fryers at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 06:44:46 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:46 +0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: *blink* On 10/11/2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm > > An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. > > I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a > drive via IBM? > > Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! After reading the article, I get the impression that it is at the stage of, we have some tapes that were recorded with data that have been kept in controlled conditions for 2 out of the last 35 years, and we have located a drive designed to read the tapes. If there is still data on the tape, and it can be read by the drive - that is something we will find out in mid Jan! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 06:51:23 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:51:23 +0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/10 David Griffith : > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >> >> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. >> >> I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a >> drive via IBM? >> >> Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! > > Why do they call it a "tape recorder". To me, that implies a device for > recording audio or video. I've worked with many qualified IT professionals who have never seen any version of Windows older than XP (released 2001) and no other general-purpose computer OS of any kind ever other than Windows. In my first full-time job as an IT journalist, in 1995-1996, I met many people who had no experience of any version of Windows before Windows 95 - when that product was less than a year old. Memories in IT are short. Tape drives (let alone tape /streamers/) are an archaic, historical curiosity now. You have to be a veteran of the IT industry - that is, around for a decade or more - to remember primitive tech like DAT drives. Most such people are now so senior they never handle kit any more. Tapes are history. The slight snag being that there's nothing to replace them with. Now, a common solution is a virtualised tape library - a rack of disks in a RAID pretending to be a tape drive with lots of cartridges already loaded. This probably talks to the server being backed up using iSCSI - SCSI packets encapsulated in TCP/IP and then sent to the storage server over Ethernet. Layer upon layer upon layer of emulation. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Nov 10 07:13:48 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:13:48 -0600 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4918338C.5040601@mdrconsult.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I've worked with many qualified IT professionals who have never seen > any version of Windows older than XP (released 2001) and no other > general-purpose computer OS of any kind ever other than Windows. In my > first full-time job as an IT journalist, in 1995-1996, I met many > people who had no experience of any version of Windows before Windows > 95 - when that product was less than a year old. I still run into quite a few people who don't know that there are operating systems besides Windows and OS X. Some have a vague concept of "those old computers" that ran "something else". > Tapes are history. Not hardly. They've finally got stiff competition in off-site spinning copies and second- and third-tier disk arrays, but they're a long, long way from going away as production hardware. Doc From james at jdfogg.com Mon Nov 10 07:19:20 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:19:20 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 Message-ID: <491834d8.341.f04.11969@jdfogg.com> > For some reason I'm thinking about getting a Sparc 20. > Does anyone have any lying around to trade? I have one that is maxed out. It has everything you could want in a SS20, incl. VSIMM. I have never booted it, but I got it directly from when it was retired. I'd mostly be interested in trades. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Nov 10 08:28:38 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:28:38 -0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D3403880352475C9360631269EF8735@FLEXPC> Liam Proven wrote: > Tapes are history. It would seem not. We have at least one tape library in the office. It's about the size of a half-height (UK) fridge. Maybe a little deeper. We use it for testing and we do that because we have customers who need that functionality. OK, it's an expensive bit of kit and it sits on Fiber Channel (so by definition that first statement is true:-)). You probably won't see one in a small office. But there must be people with datacentres full of them (or, more likely their bigger, taller cousins). Antonio From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 10 09:32:03 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:32:03 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <3D3403880352475C9360631269EF8735@FLEXPC> References: <3D3403880352475C9360631269EF8735@FLEXPC> Message-ID: At 2:28 PM +0000 11/10/08, Antonio Carlini wrote: >Liam Proven wrote: >> Tapes are history. > >It would seem not. We have at least one tape library in the office. > >It's about the size of a half-height (UK) fridge. Maybe a little deeper. > > >We use it for testing and we do that because we have customers who need >that functionality. OK, it's an expensive bit of kit and it sits on >Fiber Channel >(so by definition that first statement is true:-)). You probably won't >see >one in a small office. But there must be people with datacentres full >of them (or, more likely their bigger, taller cousins). We have rows of tape libraries in our datacenter and go through thousands of tapes each week. There are plenty of reasons tapes are still around, and they won't be gone anytime in the foreseeable future. At the same time new technologies are replacing some uses for tapes. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 10 09:37:16 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:37:16 +0000 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <3D3403880352475C9360631269EF8735@FLEXPC> References: <3D3403880352475C9360631269EF8735@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <4918552C.6080303@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/11/2008 14:28, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> Tapes are history. > > It would seem not. We have at least one tape library in the office. > > It's about the size of a half-height (UK) fridge. Maybe a little deeper. [ ... ] > But there must be people with datacentres full > of them (or, more likely their bigger, taller cousins). We have a bigger taller cousin, two very large conjoined cabinets with a scary robot arm, a few drives, and a shedload[1] of LTO4s. If you want to see what the previous generation looked like, see the cover and page 10 of http://www.york.ac.uk/services/cserv/offdocs/keynotes/oct01.pdf This is the backup for our mirrored pair of filers. [1] This is accurate. The cabinets actually take up more space than my wife's garden shed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 11:01:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:01:57 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, , <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> 2008/11/10 Antonio Carlini : > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm > > An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. Golly, why use an IBM pinch-roller drive (I remember the 729-IV on S/360 gear) when a CDC vacuum-capstan drive would be far gentler on the tape? A modern streamer might be gentler still. Just curious about the selection of the drive. Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 11:08:52 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show Message-ID: <838813.74474.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > William Blair wrote: > > Found this accidentally and I'll bet there are many more computer > > related videos on this site that would be interesting to watch. If > > you find some more, please post the links here. > That would be a lot of links, since the entire Computer Chronicles > series was donated to the Internet Archive. Yep, I noticed that right after I sent the message. 560 shows. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 10 11:33:43 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:33:43 -0700 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, , <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49187077.4080302@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2008/11/10 Antonio Carlini : > >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >> >> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. >> > > Golly, why use an IBM pinch-roller drive (I remember the 729-IV on > S/360 gear) when a CDC vacuum-capstan drive would be far gentler on > the tape? A modern streamer might be gentler still. > > Just curious about the selection of the drive. > > Cheers, > Chuck > My guess, the program was written in FORTRAN just for that drive. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 11:41:44 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:41:44 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Golly, why use an IBM pinch-roller drive (I remember the 729-IV on > S/360 gear) when a CDC vacuum-capstan drive would be far gentler on > the tape? A modern streamer might be gentler still. > > Just curious about the selection of the drive. Best yet, they could just ask NASA for the data. EVERY BIT OF EVERY MISSION is archived and (mostly) available online. Some of the more obscure data still needs to be pulled of WORMs. Mike at RCS/RI says DEC WORM drives. I wish people would just bury this damn "lost NASA data" crap in the lunar dust... -- Will From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Nov 10 11:45:35 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:45:35 -0600 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <49187077.4080302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, , <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com><4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> <49187077.4080302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: But it's just a plain old 1/2 inch tape drive. And Fortran wouldn't care about the specific model... In fact, if it's Fortran it could be easily ported to GCC Fortran and run with any convenient 1/2 inch SCSI tape drive on a PC... paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:34 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old tape drive proves its worth Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2008/11/10 Antonio Carlini : > >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >> >> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. >> > > Golly, why use an IBM pinch-roller drive (I remember the 729-IV on > S/360 gear) when a CDC vacuum-capstan drive would be far gentler on > the tape? A modern streamer might be gentler still. > > Just curious about the selection of the drive. > > Cheers, > Chuck > My guess, the program was written in FORTRAN just for that drive. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 10 11:54:30 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:54:30 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth Message-ID: <49187556.703@bitsavers.org> > But it's just a plain old 1/2 inch tape drive. 7 track A 729 would be my least favorite choice for data recovery. They must not have looked very hard at recovery services. As much as I hate him, John Bordynuik has working high-quality 7 track equipment already working with high success rates. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 11:59:56 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:59:56 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 12:41, William Donzelli wrote: > Best yet, they could just ask NASA for the data. EVERY BIT OF EVERY > MISSION is archived and (mostly) available online. Some of the more > obscure data still needs to be pulled of WORMs. Mike at RCS/RI says > DEC WORM drives. That's what I thought. I can't imagine that NASA would consign mission data to the dumpster, particularly given the (comparatively) small number of missions. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 10 11:54:47 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:54:47 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081110115203.065711d0@mail.threedee.com> If each core is magnetized or not, isn't there a way to measure that independently of actually applying current to the wires? Today's (Hall effect?) devices are fairly sensitive, no? You could disassemble the stack and move a small sensor over each core. Maybe that's not possible here. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 10 12:16:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:16:36 -0700 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, , <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com><4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> <49187077.4080302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49187A84.1020703@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > But it's just a plain old 1/2 inch tape drive. And Fortran wouldn't care about the specific model... In fact, if it's Fortran it could be easily ported to GCC Fortran and run with any convenient 1/2 inch SCSI tape drive on a PC... > > > My guess, the program was written in FORTRAN just for that > drive. > > And the source is missing of course ... Also in theory you could examine a moon rock too, but look at all the red tape... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 12:18:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:18:46 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081110115203.065711d0@mail.threedee.com> References: , <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net>, <6.2.3.4.2.20081110115203.065711d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <49180A86.25751.F574278@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 11:54, John Foust wrote: > If each core is magnetized or not, isn't there a way to measure that > independently of actually applying current to the wires? Today's > (Hall effect?) devices are fairly sensitive, no? You could disassemble > the stack and move a small sensor over each core. Maybe that's > not possible here. There are all sorts of magnetic sensors (Hall effect, AMR, GMR, SQID, NMR, etc.). ISTR that EDN had a good article on magnetic sensors a few months ago. Each type has its advantages and disadvantages. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 10 12:28:50 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:28:50 -0700 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:54:30 -0800. <49187556.703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <49187556.703 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > As much as I hate him, John Bordynuik has working high-quality > 7 track equipment already working with high success rates. Hadn't seen him before, but his web site also says he can do quarter inch cartridge formats (QIC). Does anyone else offer this service? I'm almost scared to ask for a quote. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 12:28:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:28:48 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <49187556.703@bitsavers.org> References: <49187556.703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49180CE0.1975.F607290@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 9:54, Al Kossow wrote: > A 729 would be my least favorite choice for data recovery. Back in the early 70's, part of a QSS we did was warranting the readability of 7080 729-generated tapes of which the customer had many thousands. One of the engineers opined that the approach to tape by CDC and IBM were diametrically opposite and led to some consternation and a bit of drive "tweaking". IBM apparently was a bit sloppy with their writing technology but had very good reading capabilities. CDC did good writing, but their reading wasn't up to IBM's. Or maybe it was the other way around. But for tape motion, IBM used a pinch-roller system, where CDC used a voice-coil valve to swich vacuum between two counter-rotating capstans--one on each side of the head. At least for 7-track, the best drives were the 60x models; the 65x drives used a "cost reduced" valve design and weren't nearly as good. Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 13:49:37 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <200811101800.mAAI0I0r057689@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <151493.38817.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Also, I wish they'd do something more than show off paint programs... > Still, interesting bits of history--thanks! One of the things that annoyed me greatly at the time was the brand name bigotry of the pundits. You'd hear it all the time on Computer Chronicles. The Atari ST offered a price performance ratio way beyond anything else available at the time and yet these "experts" just couldn't get over the name "Atari." They didn't even realize that the Atari ST had been designed by Commodore engineers while the Commodore Amiga had been designed by Atari engineers, including the great Jay Miner and that it shouldn't matter anyway what the brand label is on superior, low cost hardware. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 10 14:19:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:19:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <7d3530220811091956x722ea7f5v2f31d2bc17be813b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811081800.mA8I0KwX027656@dewey.classiccmp.org> <528347.42043.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <7d3530220811091956x722ea7f5v2f31d2bc17be813b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081110121508.M12825@shell.lmi.net> It was filmed at KCSM (College of San Mateo). It was started by Jim Warren (West Coast Computer Faire, Dr. Dobb's, etc.) Originally it was Jim Warren and Gary Kildall! Eventually Kildall left and was replaced by Stewart Cheifet. eventually Jim Warren left. Some of the early shows were great. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 15:06:37 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hack a Day does the PCJr In-Reply-To: <49180A86.25751.F574278@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <751987.89813.qm@web110501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://hackaday.com/2008/11/08/pcjr-25-years-later/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 15:16:22 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:16:22 -0500 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: <49161CE3.20991.7CEFEAE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49161CE3.20991.7CEFEAE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There's a seller who's selling the 2.8" Smith-Corona-labeled DataDisk > for about $10 the each new. Drives? Probably cheapest to find a > Smith-Corona PWP with one and scavenge it from there. Bare drives > seem to command an obscene premium as they're used in some old Roland > synths. Do you know which ones used QuickDisks? The ones I have or have seen use 3.5 inch disks. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 15:10:54 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:10:54 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Minor correction - most is not online, but it all can be ordered and a tape or CDROM written. > That's what I thought. I can't imagine that NASA would consign > mission data to the dumpster, particularly given the (comparatively) > small number of missions. I think this is all blown up from a few researchers over the years that have been looking for the original telemetry tapes. At least one group recently has been looking into something with anomalies in signal transit time or something, and the raw telemetry data could be distilled to get some real data. NASA, however, did not keep many of the telemetry tapes - but they never intended to keep them. As soon as able, the tapes were read and decoded into the data they wanted from the probes and eventually made public to the zillions of scientists that were foaming at the mouth for it. Keeping the telemetry tapes would be similar to Jay archiving this list with all the TCP/IP headers and junk. I think RCS/RI has one of the original Viking mission tapes kicking around. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Nov 10 15:34:32 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:34:32 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, , <575131af0811100431mf3e3da1t741dc100ee2906bb@mail.gmail.com> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <13105.1226352872@mini> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >2008/11/10 Antonio Carlini : >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >> >> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. > >Golly, why use an IBM pinch-roller drive (I remember the 729-IV on >S/360 gear) when a CDC vacuum-capstan drive would be far gentler on >the tape? A modern streamer might be gentler still. > >Just curious about the selection of the drive. Yea, that made no sense to me either. NASA has found better ways to read old tapes. I assumed someone would suggest a better method to them... -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 10 15:36:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:36:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081110133043.J17208@shell.lmi.net> > That's what I thought. I can't imagine that NASA would consign > mission data to the dumpster, particularly given the (comparatively) > small number of missions. 40 years ago, when I was working at the National Space Sciences Data Center (building 26, Goddard Space Flight Center), tapes, decks of cards, and Fortran source were going missing on a regular basis, and some of the people managing the tape collections felt that only the most recent data was worth keeping. On a few occasions, I was handed "scratch" tapes to use for output and transfer to plotters that had important sounding prior labels on them. "I'm sure that there must be a few more copies of that data around somewhere." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 15:51:23 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:51:23 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <20081110133043.J17208@shell.lmi.net> References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org> <4917F885.24058.F10EE6A@cclist.sydex.com> <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com> <20081110133043.J17208@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > 40 years ago, when I was working at the National Space Sciences Data > Center (building 26, Goddard Space Flight Center), tapes, decks of cards, > and Fortran source were going missing on a regular basis, and some of the > people managing the tape collections felt that only the most recent data > was worth keeping. On a few occasions, I was handed "scratch" tapes to > use for output and transfer to plotters that had important sounding prior > labels on them. "I'm sure that there must be a few more copies of that > data around somewhere." Well, apparently there was. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 16:09:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:09:40 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: <4914EE18.8050901@bitsavers.org>, <4918061C.23854.F4605E0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <491840A4.21081.8E2709@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 16:10, William Donzelli wrote: > I think this is all blown up from a few researchers over the years > that have been looking for the original telemetry tapes. At least one > group recently has been looking into something with anomalies in > signal transit time or something, and the raw telemetry data could be > distilled to get some real data. NASA, however, did not keep many of > the telemetry tapes - but they never intended to keep them. As soon as > able, the tapes were read and decoded into the data they wanted from > the probes and eventually made public to the zillions of scientists > that were foaming at the mouth for it. Keeping the telemetry tapes > would be similar to Jay archiving this list with all the TCP/IP > headers and junk. I remember chatting with a guy in the next office over who was on the MDSF project (remember Skylab?). He quoted some fairly astonishing numbers to me on the amount of the raw telemetry data that was actually discarded in processing. Was any of the software from MDSF ever archived? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 10 16:21:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:21:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> from "Daniel Seagraves" at Nov 9, 8 08:45:25 pm Message-ID: > > Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in > reading out a LVDC core stack. Ouch!. I don't have much experience of reading core, but I've worked on core memory systems (I guess many others here have too). Rememebr that reading core is destructive. Basically, the read operation is to write a 0 to each core and see if there was a change in magnetic flux in that core. If there was, it _was_ a 1. If not, it was (and still is) a 0. Normally you then write the 1 back if appropriate. So the first problem is that if anything goes wrong, if the snese amplifier doesn't work, or whatever, then you lose the contects of the core stack. You don't get a second change. The second problem is that from what I've read on core memory, the waveforms applied to the X and Y address wires are critical. Not just in amplitude, but also in things like rise time. Get the former wrong (at least) and you might corrupt cores other than the one you're trying to read. How much data on the origianl core controller still exists? Any scheamtics? Any comments on wht had to be tweaked for each core stack? And hardware still around (particularly the controller for _this_ stack)? > If successful, this will likely be the only example of the LVDC flight > software left in existence. And if unsuccessful there will be no examples left :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 10 16:23:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:23:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4917A27A.9020504@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Nov 9, 8 08:54:50 pm Message-ID: > People on this list have talked about some film that changes > polarization or color or something in the presence of magnetic fields. > Core is orders of magnitude larger than the bit domains of floppy disks, > so using such a film to read out the core state non-destructively seems > like a good idea. Yes, but how much 'stray' flux is there outside each core? Thinking a lot larger, one of the features of torroidal (mains) transformers is the relatively low external flux, so less interference nad the like. I would have thought the static stray flux from a core in a memory plane would be very difficult to detect. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 16:00:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:00:54 -0800 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: References: , <49161CE3.20991.7CEFEAE@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49183E96.25106.861EC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 16:16, William Donzelli wrote: > > There's a seller who's selling the 2.8" Smith-Corona-labeled DataDisk > > for about $10 the each new. Drives? Probably cheapest to find a > > Smith-Corona PWP with one and scavenge it from there. Bare drives > > seem to command an obscene premium as they're used in some old Roland > > synths. > > Do you know which ones used QuickDisks? The ones I have or have seen > use 3.5 inch disks. (Fibber Magee goes to his closet) I've got a PWP-5G portable here that uses them, and my notes say that the PWP-1000, 2000, 90 and 3 used them also. Other than the 5G in my hot little hands, the list is by no means complete nor authoritative. A single track recorded as a spiral; the drive positioner works off of a grooved disc-with-follower driven from the spindle motor through a clutch. Auto-completes and returns to the beginning of the track as part of the cycle. Very, very simple. If you wanted to emulate it in software, it'd be very easy as the datarate isn't particularly high. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 16:40:53 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:40:53 -0500 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: <49183E96.25106.861EC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49161CE3.20991.7CEFEAE@cclist.sydex.com> <49183E96.25106.861EC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Do you know which ones used QuickDisks? The ones I have or have seen > > use 3.5 inch disks. > > > (Fibber Magee goes to his closet) > > I've got a PWP-5G portable here that uses them, and my notes say that > the PWP-1000, 2000, 90 and 3 used them also. Other than the 5G in my > hot little hands, the list is by no means complete nor authoritative. I was actually wondering about which synths. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 10 17:00:38 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:00:38 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4918BD16.4090204@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Rememebr that reading core is destructive. That's certainly true of normal read-write core storage. However, there was also a read-only form of core storage, known by the names "core rope memory", "wire braid memory", etc. In this form of core memory, the magnetization of the cores is not used to store the data, but rather the pattern of threading. The cores don't even need to exhibit the hysteresis loop needed for read-write core storage. Each core stores multiple bits of data; a typical system may store 64 bits per core. This was advantageous where it is undesirable for the data to be changed (e.g., a fixed program or data table), and where mass and volume are at a premium. The drawback was that if you decided you wanted to change the data, the most cost-effective way to do so was to replace the entire core assembly. This form of memory was used for the program storage of the Apollo Guidance Computer. I have no idea whether it was used for the LVDC, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 17:13:04 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:13:04 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918BD16.4090204@brouhaha.com> References: , <4918BD16.4090204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 15:00, Eric Smith wrote: > This form of memory was used for the program storage of the Apollo > Guidance Computer. I have no idea whether it was used for the LVDC, but > it certainly wouldn't surprise me. ...but then there would be no need for sense amplifiers for this project, right? One could read the core visually, unless one had an aversion to photons. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 17:11:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:11:02 -0800 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: References: , <49183E96.25106.861EC2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49184F06.5350.C653AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 17:40, William Donzelli wrote: > I was actually wondering about which synths. Probably a better question asked over at a vintage synth list, but here goes: Roland PR-100, S-10, MT-100, S-220 Akai S700, X7000, MD280 (external drive) I think Yamaha had an external QD drive for some of its synths also. Again, not exhuastive, just the more common ones. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Nov 10 17:49:58 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:49:58 -0600 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? Message-ID: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> I'm considering designing some cartridges for the CBM line of computers, but I'd prefer to skip masses of jumper blocks and move to a soft-config option. I know, some of you love jumpers, but for carts, it's more important to offer flexible options so that the SW can reconfigure carts on load. I have no issues with adding a small uC to a cart to do the heavy lifting, but I'm struggling with a way to communicate with the uC from the CBM machine. In the past, people have added config registers to a IO space, but that introduces its own issues (how to hide the registers, what about conflicts, etc.) Ideally, I'd like to use an approach that: * works via the existing address/chip select/data lines of the cart ports * will handle multiple equipped carts on the same port (port expanders) * uses as few lines as possible to communicate with the host machine * will not affect non-equipped cartridges * not require major amount of horsepower from the uC side. I thought using and SPI/I2C-like approach using an address line or two and a data line to communicate with the cartridges. But, that approach requires something to "unlock" the config system and lock it again. Any alternative ideas? Is there any prior work in this area I should re-use? -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 10 18:05:01 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:05:01 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4918BD16.4090204@brouhaha.com> <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote about core rope memory: > ...but then there would be no need for sense amplifiers for this > project, right? One could read the core visually, Not really. You'd have thousands of very fine wires, all looking identical, that pass through some cores and go around others (on average perhaps 33 through each core), and packed incredibly densely. Even with very high resolution scans from multiple angles I don't think you could expect to extract the data visually. If you want to try the experiment, get the control store from a PDP-9 (DEC G920 module, 64 word by 36 bit) or the control store from and HP 9100 calculator (09100-69501 for 9100A, 09100-69551 for 9100B, either 64 words by 29 bits). Those should be much easier to read, as they didn't have to be packaged at maximum density for use on a spacecraft. I've looked at the 9100 control store module a few times, and I think reading it electrically would be *much* easier than trying to do it optically. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 18:28:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:28:29 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com> References: , <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 16:05, Eric Smith wrote: > Not really. You'd have thousands of very fine wires, all looking > identical, that pass through some cores and go around others (on average > perhaps 33 through each core), and packed incredibly densely. Even with > very high resolution scans from multiple angles I don't think you could > expect to extract the data visually. Okay, I see. Regardless--if it's that type of memory, then failure to read it electrically could use a visual method as a fallback. After all, these things were assembled (and one would expect, inspected) manually. Did some of the S/360 machines use ferrite ROM for their control stores? 360/40 perhaps? I believe some also used capacitive ROM (360/30?). Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 10 19:57:55 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:57:55 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com> <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did some of the S/360 machines use ferrite ROM for their control > stores? 360/40 perhaps? I believe some also used capacitive ROM > (360/30?). The three ROS (Read Only Storage) technologies developed for the original System/360 processors were: CCROS - Card Capacitor Read Only Storage - used etched metalized IBM cards, either paper or mylar. Programmed using a normal card punch. Used in 360/30. 750 ns cycle time. BCROS - Balanced Capacitor Read Only Storage - similar but used two capacitors per bit for better SNR and higher speed, and did not use a normal card punch. Used in 360/65, with 90 ns access time and 200 ns cycle time. TROS - Transformer Read Only Storage - similar in operation to core rope memory. Used mylar film tapes with metalization that either passed between or around square holes for each of the transformer cores. Used in 360/20 and 360/40. 240 ns access time, 625 ns cycle time. Based on T.L. Dimond's "Dimond ring" transformer read-only storage first described in 1951. See: "No. 5 Crossbar AMA Translator," T. L. Dimond, Bell Laboratories Record Volume 29 Number 2 pp.62-68, February 1951 "Card Capacitor - A Semipermanent, Read Only Memory", H.R. Foglia, W.L. McDermid, H.E. Petersen, IBM Journal of Research and Development, Volume 5 Issue 1 pp. 67-68, January 1961 "Printed Cards for the Card Capacitor Memory", J.W. Haskell, IBM Journal of Research and Development, Volume 6 Issue 4 pp. 462-463, October 1962 "The Design of Transformer (Dimond Ring) Read Only Stores", D.M. Taub, B.W. Kington, IBM Journal of Research and Development, Volume 8 Issue 4 pp. 443-459, September 1964 "Design of a Printed Card Capacitor Read-Only Store", J.W. Haskell, IBM Journal of Research and Development, Volume 10 Issue 2 pp. 142-157, March 1966 "The 'Braid' Transformer Memory", W.H. Aldrich, R.L. Alonso, IEEE Transactions on Electronic Computers Volume 15 Issue 4 pp. 502-508, August 1966 "A Balanced Capacitor Read-Only Storage", S. A. Abbas, J. K. Ayling, C. E. Gifford, R. G. Gladu, T. C. Kwei, W. J. Taren, IBM Journal of Research and Development, Volume 12 Issue 4 pp. 307-317, July 1968 _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_, E.W. Pugh, L.R. Johnson, J.H. Palmer, MIT Press 1991. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 10 20:34:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:34:09 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> References: , <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 17:57, Eric Smith wrote: > The three ROS (Read Only Storage) technologies developed for the > original System/360 processors were... Thanks for refreshing my (ever more volatile) wetware. Back in the 1960s, ISTR reading a (red) hardcover book that dealt with custom microprogramming both the S/360 and the Spectra 70. From what I remember, the 360/30 was the system of choice for "hobby microprogrammers" with the Spectrola a close second. Have you ever run across such a book? Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 10 20:55:17 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:55:17 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4918F415.2020800@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR reading a (red) hardcover book that dealt with custom > microprogramming both the S/360 and the Spectra 70. From what > I remember, the 360/30 was the system of choice for "hobby > microprogrammers" with the Spectrola a close second. _Microprogramming: Principles and Practice_, Samir S. Husson, Prentice Hall, 1970 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 20:56:57 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:56:57 -0600 Subject: Saturn V core stack? (all the code is here) In-Reply-To: <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: http://www.klabs.org/richcontent/Misc_Content/AGC_And_History/AGC_History.htm And a build it your self in your basement article! Randy > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:34:09 -0800 > Subject: Re: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? > > On 10 Nov 2008 at 17:57, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > The three ROS (Read Only Storage) technologies developed for the > > original System/360 processors were... > > Thanks for refreshing my (ever more volatile) wetware. Back in the > 1960s, ISTR reading a (red) hardcover book that dealt with custom > microprogramming both the S/360 and the Spectra 70. From what I > remember, the 360/30 was the system of choice for "hobby > microprogrammers" with the Spectrola a close second. > > Have you ever run across such a book? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:13:14 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:13:14 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4918F84A.9060402@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm > > An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. > > I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a > drive via IBM? I doubt it. If you throw enough money at them, they'll *build you a new one*. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:16:22 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:16:22 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4918F906.5050203@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/11/10 David Griffith : >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> >>> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >>> >>> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. >>> >>> I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a >>> drive via IBM? >>> >>> Good to see that some old tapes retain their data! >> Why do they call it a "tape recorder". To me, that implies a device for >> recording audio or video. > > I've worked with many qualified IT professionals who have never seen > any version of Windows older than XP (released 2001) and no other > general-purpose computer OS of any kind ever other than Windows. In my Someone who tries to call themselves an "IT professional" who has never seen a general-purpose computer OS other than Windows is not someone I would call "qualified". And I can guarantee they wouldn't get hired here where I work, even for a Windows job. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 21:17:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:17:32 -0500 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4918338C.5040601@mdrconsult.com> References: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com> <4918338C.5040601@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4918F94C.6050005@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: >> Tapes are history. > > Not hardly. They've finally got stiff competition in off-site > spinning copies and second- and third-tier disk arrays, but they're a > long, long way from going away as production hardware. IBM Poughkeepsie has a truly gigantic (thousands and thousands of square feet) customer tape pool. Tapes are very much still in use. Peace... Sridhar From ken at seefried.com Mon Nov 10 21:21:21 2008 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:21:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth Message-ID: <20081111032121.CFEFC3800072F@portal.seefried.com> > Tapes are history. News to those of us doing US$ 8-figures a year in tape tech as part of HSM solutions. Thanks for setting me straight. KJ From evan at snarc.net Mon Nov 10 21:56:05 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:56:05 -0500 Subject: Kaypro in modern TV commercial Message-ID: <003501c943b1$6d711650$0201a8c0@evan> Tonight, in a TV commercial for 800okcable.com, I noticed a Kaypro .... the cable folks were making fun of the phone companies supposedly being behind the times, as text in the scene said "1996". From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 10 22:27:12 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:27:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <20081110121508.M12825@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Nov 10, 8 12:19:06 pm" Message-ID: <200811110427.mAB4RC5f018836@floodgap.com> > It was filmed at KCSM (College of San Mateo). It was started by Jim > Warren (West Coast Computer Faire, Dr. Dobb's, etc.) > > Originally it was Jim Warren and Gary Kildall! > > Eventually Kildall left and was replaced by Stewart Cheifet. > eventually Jim Warren left. But Kildall and Cheifet were co-hosts for a number of episodes ... ? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to miss my ex-girlfriend, but then my aim improved. ----------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 10 23:49:30 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:49:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <200811110427.mAB4RC5f018836@floodgap.com> References: <200811110427.mAB4RC5f018836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20081110214752.N33542@shell.lmi.net> > > Originally it was Jim Warren and Gary Kildall! > > Eventually Kildall left and was replaced by Stewart Cheifet. > > eventually Jim Warren left. On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > But Kildall and Cheifet were co-hosts for a number of episodes ... ? I guess that I don't really remember which order they left. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 11 00:14:29 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:14:29 -0500 Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show References: <200811110427.mAB4RC5f018836@floodgap.com> <20081110214752.N33542@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6086D1CDB1EB49118BC1DADC64DBCB68@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:49 AM Subject: Re: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show >> > Originally it was Jim Warren and Gary Kildall! >> > Eventually Kildall left and was replaced by Stewart Cheifet. >> > eventually Jim Warren left. > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> But Kildall and Cheifet were co-hosts for a number of episodes ... ? > > I guess that I don't really remember which order they left. I remember Cheifet being there the whole time, mostly with Kildall untill Kildall decided to quit or died. It was fun watching those episides when I was young on Saturdays. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 11 00:37:16 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:37:16 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net> from "Daniel Seagraves" at Nov 9, 8 08:45:25 pm Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in >> reading out a LVDC core stack. > > Ouch!. I don't have much experience of reading core, but I've worked on > core memory systems (I guess many others here have too). > > Rememebr that reading core is destructive. Basically, the read operation > is to write a 0 to each core and see if there was a change in magnetic > flux in that core. If there was, it _was_ a 1. If not, it was (and still > is) a 0. Normally you then write the 1 back if appropriate. > Hi Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by a digital scope. The rise times of the address and inhibit lines are mostly to be slow enough that it doesn't cause the sense amplifier to trip on the coupling in the selected address line. Other addresses are protected by the matching signal on the inhibit line. Any reasonably slow ramp would work since one is using a scope to record and not a sense amp. The levels needed can be determined experimentally since the amplitude of the read signal is indepedent of the address signal size ( assumming that there is sufficient signal to cause the core to switch ). There is little leakage of flux outside of the cores. Any method to read an exterenal flux would be difficult to detect. I doubt a hall efect would be sensitive enough. Maybe a SQUID could be used. There are ones that are used to detect small shorts inside of IC packages. Still, I think the easiest method is as I described, using an electrical method and tries using small increments in the current. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 11 01:40:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:40:19 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net>, , Message-ID: <4918C663.30402.298922E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2008 at 22:37, dwight elvey wrote: > Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by > a digital scope. The rise times of the address and inhibit lines > are mostly to be slow enough that it doesn't cause the sense > amplifier to trip on the coupling in the selected address line. > Other addresses are protected by the matching signal on the inhibit > line. Any reasonably slow ramp would work since one is using a > scope to record and not a sense amp. Putting to bed the idea of the "core rope" program store, the 1964 document on the launch computer is pretty clear that this is ordinary read-write core storing the program: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 63841.pdf In particular, item 2-37 begins "Reading a ferrite-core memory destroys the information in the memory." It then goes on to describe the restore part of a read operation. No mention of "core rope" is made. The document, all 200-some pages contains a great deal of detail on the computer, including memory operation and organization. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 10 17:54:24 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:54:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I'm considering designing some cartridges for the CBM line of > computers, but I'd prefer to skip masses of jumper blocks and move to > a soft-config option. > I know, some of you love jumpers, but for carts, it's more important > to offer flexible options so that the SW can reconfigure carts on > load. Personally, I prefer jumpers to soft config for two reasons. One is that soft config is approximately never documented; it's always "just run the supplied program" (never mind that I don't have the for-pay OS that's the only one it runs under and in some cases don't even have the CPU architecture it's for in the machine). This one is, of course, totally avoidable when it's your own design, and some of the issues vanish anyway when the hardware is closely tied to very specific other hardware, as I gather is the case here. The other is that I really like to know that software, no matter how wonky it gets, _can't_ corrupt the configuration - software can't move jumpers. (This is one of the reasons I dislike peecees, as a class; they all seem to have gone down the reflashable-BIOS path, but never with a jumper to disable reflashing. A few saner ones may exist, but if so they've avoided me so far.) This one can be addressed by having a real hardware switch of some sort (such as a jumper) that acts as a write enable. People for whom the convenience outweighs the security can leave it set writes-enabled permanently; people like me who go the other way can use it to write-protect except when deliberately trying to reconfig. How to _implement_ soft config, which seems to be mostly what you're asking about, I can't speak to; I'm really just speaking to the jumpers-vs-softconfig question. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 11 02:16:22 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:16:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: <491834d8.341.f04.11969@jdfogg.com> References: <491834d8.341.f04.11969@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, james wrote: > > For some reason I'm thinking about getting a Sparc 20. > > Does anyone have any lying around to trade? > > I have one that is maxed out. It has everything you could > want in a SS20, incl. VSIMM. I have never booted it, but I > got it directly from when it was retired. Sounds nice. What processor cards are installed? Can you tell me anything about the VSIMM capacity? > I'd mostly be interested in trades. What sort of stuff are you looking to acquire? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Nov 11 02:16:25 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:16:25 -0600 Subject: Saturn V core stack? (all the code is here) In-Reply-To: References: , <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918E6A3.7080902@brouhaha.com> <49187EA1.13624.18044EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <17b7347940b618a5af8a88cb959f3c60@lunar-tokyo.net> There are four independent flight computers involved in the Apollo program. The LVDC is the Launch Vehicle Digital Computer and was designed by IBM. It flew the Saturn booster. The Command Module Computer and Lunar Guidance Computer (CMC/LGC) are the Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) from MIT. This is the one most people think of when they think "Apollo Capsule Computer". There was an additonal backup computer on the LM called the Abort Guidance System, or AGS. It was made by TRW. The one being discussed is the LVDC. As far as I can tell, all of the LVDC software was in the possession of IBM when it was broken up, and nobody seems to know where they went after that. On Nov 10, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > http://www.klabs.org/richcontent/Misc_Content/AGC_And_History/ > AGC_History.htm > > And a build it your self in your basement article! > > Randy > >> From: cclist at sydex.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:34:09 -0800 >> Subject: Re: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? >> >> On 10 Nov 2008 at 17:57, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> >>> The three ROS (Read Only Storage) technologies developed for the >>> original System/360 processors were... >> >> Thanks for refreshing my (ever more volatile) wetware. Back in the >> 1960s, ISTR reading a (red) hardcover book that dealt with custom >> microprogramming both the S/360 and the Spectra 70. From what I >> remember, the 360/30 was the system of choice for "hobby >> microprogrammers" with the Spectrola a close second. >> >> Have you ever run across such a book? >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > See how Windows? connects the people, information, and fun that are > part of your life > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Nov 11 02:31:38 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:31:38 -0200 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth References: <575131af0811100451u3df9d6c0gbaf2f5745e35181d@mail.gmail.com><4918338C.5040601@mdrconsult.com> <4918F94C.6050005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b1501c943d8$0b19b1c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >>> Tapes are history. >> Not hardly. They've finally got stiff competition in off-site >> spinning copies and second- and third-tier disk arrays, but they're a >> long, long way from going away as production hardware. > IBM Poughkeepsie has a truly gigantic (thousands and thousands of square > feet) customer tape pool. Tapes are very much still in use. Is it stored there because Pough-Keep-Sie? Oh, it was bad, but I found it fun :o) Alexandre site offline...oh my :( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Nov 11 02:32:53 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:32:53 -0200 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? References: <1dbf64bd909ca589d4248eacc1bb6da7@lunar-tokyo.net>, , <4918C663.30402.298922E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0b1601c943d8$286fc3e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > In particular, item 2-37 begins "Reading a ferrite-core memory > destroys the information in the memory." It then goes on to describe > the restore part of a read operation. No mention of "core rope" is > made. The document, all 200-some pages contains a great deal of > detail on the computer, including memory operation and organization. What about a magnetic ressonance machine, without the electromagnets? Couldn't it create a tridimensional map of actual magnetic orientations? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 11 03:50:01 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:50:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com> <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2008 at 16:05, Eric Smith wrote: >> Not really. You'd have thousands of very fine wires, all looking >> identical, that pass through some cores and go around others (on average >> perhaps 33 through each core), and packed incredibly densely. Even with >> very high resolution scans from multiple angles I don't think you could >> expect to extract the data visually. > > Okay, I see. Regardless--if it's that type of memory, then failure > to read it electrically could use a visual method as a fallback. > After all, these things were assembled (and one would expect, > inspected) manually. As an example, this is the microprogram ROM of a Wang 600: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/wang700/wang700_rom.html Christian From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 09:15:34 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:15:34 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought Message-ID: <575131af0811110715n25c6cbcbq15007c8d49cfeb4d@mail.gmail.com> I *may* soon be acquiring a NeXT slab. Snag is, while it has mouse, keyboard etc., it has no monitor. Does anyone know about what kind of connector I'd need to connect a plain ol' VGA type monitor to it? I don't yet know if it's a colour or a mono slab. If it's a mono one, I have an old Sun 19" mono monitor I could use (13W3, I think?), and indeed an old Viking II Mac 19" mono (DB9, IIRC) and a colour 21" that always swaps green and red over, on both Macs and PCs, for no reason I can determine (It has a Mac lead, and I've tried on both Macs and PCs thru' a Mac-PC convertor). Any chance of connecting any of them to it? I've only been in this hobby for a quarter of a century or so and the first 5-10y it was either a TV set or CGA. I know nothing about all these older monitor connections... :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 09:37:20 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:37:20 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I don't know if it's enough to keep us from now seeing >> 20 planes filtering out onto ebay... > > Unlikely. "posthuman" buys a lot. > Sadly, it will not be part of the CHM collection. > Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the interesting items go... From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 09:37:47 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:37:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af0811110715n25c6cbcbq15007c8d49cfeb4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Liam Proven wrote: > I *may* soon be acquiring a NeXT slab. Snag is, while it has > mouse, > keyboard etc., it has no monitor. > > Does anyone know about what kind of connector I'd need > to connect a > plain ol' VGA type monitor to it? > I don't yet know if it's a colour or a mono slab. The color NeXT monitors connect with a 13w3 connector. I believe that they are fixed frequency, sync on green. A newer VGA monitor that supports sync-on-green should work with some connector adapting. But, the monitor is the LEAST of your worries. You see, I have a color slab too. And a color cube. I also have the keyboard, mouse, color monitor and sound box. And I've never been able to hook any of it up. I'm missing "the cable". NeXT couldn't just put connectors for everything on the back of the computer. No, that would have been too easy, to useful. For example, there is no keyboard port on the computer. No power switch either - that's on the keyboard. To connect ANYTHING to the computer, you need the sound box. This is a wedge shaped black box with a speaker in it - and the keyboard port. This connects to the computer through "the cable" - a special, three headed cable that connects to the computer, sound box and monitor. You need the sound box and this wacky cable. I have been unable to track one down, I've been looking on and off for a couple years. Never could find one at a sane price. I once even sat down with the schematics and drew up a diagram of what I thought the cable should be, so I could build one. But, since there is power in the cable, and I wasn't 100% sure I was right, I never built it. I'd love to find a real cable so I can ohm it out and determine the connections. Good luck... -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 10:02:18 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:02:18 -0600 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4919AC8A.6000606@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > NeXT couldn't just put connectors for everything on the back of the > computer. No, that would have been too easy, to useful. For example, there > is no keyboard port on the computer. No power switch either - that's on the > keyboard. To connect ANYTHING to the computer, you need the sound box. This > is a wedge shaped black box with a speaker in it - and the keyboard port. > This connects to the computer through "the cable" - a special, three headed > cable that connects to the computer, sound box and monitor. I think that's highly dependent on the display - the color displays were rebadged something-elses (Hitachi?) so needed the sound box, but that functionality was built into the mono displays. (having said that I'm a little confused though, as I'm sure I used a sound box with the mono Cube - perhaps there's a difference between the 17" and 21" mono displays, too?) cheers Jules From rickb at bensene.com Tue Nov 11 10:12:16 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:12:16 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: , <49184F80.30887.C83255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4918CC2D.2080207@brouhaha.com><4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As an example, this is the microprogram ROM of a Wang 600: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/wang700/wang700_ro m.html For more information visit http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang720.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 11 11:13:05 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:13:05 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <4919AC8A.6000606@gmail.com> References: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4919AC8A.6000606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4919BD21.2030609@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/11/2008 16:02, Jules Richardson wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> NeXT couldn't just put connectors for everything on the back of the >> computer. No, that would have been too easy, to useful. For example, >> there >> is no keyboard port on the computer. No power switch either - that's >> on the >> keyboard. To connect ANYTHING to the computer, you need the sound box. > I think that's highly dependent on the display - the color displays were > rebadged something-elses (Hitachi?) so needed the sound box, but that > functionality was built into the mono displays. > > (having said that I'm a little confused though, as I'm sure I used a > sound box with the mono Cube - perhaps there's a difference between the > 17" and 21" mono displays, too?) I'm not sure about that -- I thought all NeXT mono monitors included the keyboard circuitry. My 17" one certainly does; the 19-pin D-connector carries power and keyboard connections to the monitor, which provides the socket for the keyboard (which in turn has the power control as Ian says). Jules may be correct about the 21" monitor, though; I've not seen one in the flesh. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 11 11:15:31 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:15:31 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <4919BD21.2030609@dunnington.plus.com> References: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4919AC8A.6000606@gmail.com> <4919BD21.2030609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4919BDB3.8060905@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/11/2008 17:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I thought all NeXT mono monitors included the > keyboard circuitry. My 17" one certainly does; the 19-pin D-connector > carries power and keyboard connections to the monitor, which provides > the socket for the keyboard (which in turn has the power control as Ian > says). I meant to add that answer L11 in the FAQ may be helpful if you don't have a NeXT monitor: http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~heller/NeXT/HW_internal_FAQ.txt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From james at jdfogg.com Tue Nov 11 12:16:40 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:16:40 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 Message-ID: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> > > I have one that is maxed out. It has everything you > > could want in a SS20, incl. VSIMM. I have never booted > > it, but I got it directly from when it was retired. > > Sounds nice. What processor cards are installed? Can you > tell me anything about the VSIMM capacity? I haven't touched the box in a long time. What I remember is that it had two processors, and they were the fastest available for that model. It had the largest VSIMM available (8Mb?). It had 2 disks. As I recall, it had the maximum possible memory compliment. Everything I remember about the box says that as SS20's go, it couldn't get any better. > > I'd mostly be interested in trades. > > What sort of stuff are you looking to acquire? My interests are wide and varied: Old computers (pretty well set with Sun and DEC), radio (ham radio and tube receivers like All American 5's), photography (film/digital) and interesting old tidbits of technology. The one thing I have yet to find is anything from Data General. I have family that wrote AOS/VS for DG and finding and example would be really nice. One need I have is for a microscope capable of 200x or 400x for working with my barnyard animals (I'll spare you the details of what I need to look for at the microscopic level). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 11 12:22:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:22:15 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: , <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49195CD7.3507.29C1C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2008 at 10:50, Christian Corti wrote: > As an example, this is the microprogram ROM of a Wang 600: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/wang700/wang700_rom.html Regardless of the relevance to the original topic (the LVDC doesn't use core rope), my point was that if a core rope memory could be assembled manually, it certainly could be dis-assembled manually. What isn't clear from the IBM LVDC description is how the programs were originally loaded into the computer. I don't see any mention of a boot loader. Was the core programmed separately and then installed into the LVDC? Or was some sort of fixture attached for programming? Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 11 12:45:22 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:45:22 -0600 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4919D2C2.8010307@jbrain.com> der Mouse wrote: > > > Personally, I prefer jumpers to soft config for two reasons. > > One is that soft config is approximately never documented; it's always > "just run the supplied program" (never mind that I don't have the > for-pay OS that's the only one it runs under and in some cases don't > even have the CPU architecture it's for in the machine). > I'm not a fan of jumperless cards in PCs, for the reasons you note. But, on the PC, you rarely need to modify those settings once configured. In the situations I am considering, that's just not an option. And, the number of jumpers I would need to include would be daunting in some scenarios (a large RAM cart with UART and Terminal Emulator ROM) > This one can be addressed by having a real hardware switch of some sort > (such as a jumper) that acts as a write enable. People for whom the > convenience outweighs the security can leave it set writes-enabled > permanently; people like me who go the other way can use it to > write-protect except when deliberately trying to reconfig. > This is a good idea, and I think I can support this. From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 11 13:04:01 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:04:01 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: From: "der Mouse" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:54 PM > Personally, I prefer jumpers to soft config for two reasons. What I love about jumpers is that they last. I can bring up a machine that hasn't been operational in years and not worry about the correct values for all the settings that the "hardware" has forgotten. Vince From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 13:04:30 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:04:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1985 Computer Chronicles TV computer show In-Reply-To: <200811111800.mABI0PHV074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <359718.24274.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I remember Cheifet being there the whole time, mostly with > Kildall untill Kildall decided to quit or died. Kildall died in 1994: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kildall only four years after he left the show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Chronicles From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 13:14:41 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:14:41 -0500 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "der Mouse" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 3:54 PM >> Personally, I prefer jumpers to soft config for two reasons. > > What I love about jumpers is that they last. I can bring up a machine > that hasn't been operational in years and not worry about the correct > values for all the settings that the "hardware" has forgotten. I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 11 13:56:44 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:56:44 +0000 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: <49184F06.5350.C653AD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <49183E96.25106.861EC2@cclist.sydex.com>, <49184F06.5350.C653AD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4919E37C.7030504@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Nov 2008 at 17:40, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I was actually wondering about which synths. > > Probably a better question asked over at a vintage synth list, but > here goes: > > Roland PR-100, S-10, MT-100, S-220 > Akai S700, X7000, MD280 (external drive) > > I think Yamaha had an external QD drive for some of its synths also. > Again, not exhuastive, just the more common ones. Korg SQD-1, SQD-8... Not sure if any of the Korg samplers used them. I know the DSS-1 used normal 3.5" disks. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 11 14:52:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:52:23 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com>, , <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49198007.13190.B33234@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2008 at 14:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > What I love about jumpers is that they last. I can bring up a machine > > that hasn't been operational in years and not worry about the correct > > values for all the settings that the "hardware" has forgotten. > > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. I've got a lot of old cards with the Xicor X2444 NVRAM chips for configuration (mostly NICs). While they're kind of neat in that boards have no jumpers, they're also dangerous even if you managed to hold on to the configuration utility. ISTR that the Intel Aboveboard could be put into such a state that the host system would not boot successfully. Fortunately, the X2444 is in a socket and you can simply pull it to get the system booted, then re-insert it and configure the board correctly (assuming you have the configuration utility). On the other hand, a board with jumpers or switches need only be fiddled with to get it working. Even with 8 DIP switches, that's only 256 combinations. A small suggestion is that if you use DIP switches or jumpers, please eliminate those states where the settings make no sense. I hope we've progressed past the point of stuff such as "If SW6 is set on, then SW1 must be set off and SW3 must be set on; otherwise SW1 must be set on and the setting of SW3 depends on the setting of SW4-5 (see table 5-13)". Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 11 14:56:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:56:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <4918612D.20347.10D3C1B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 10, 8 04:28:29 pm Message-ID: > > On 10 Nov 2008 at 16:05, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Not really. You'd have thousands of very fine wires, all looking > > identical, that pass through some cores and go around others (on average > > perhaps 33 through each core), and packed incredibly densely. Even with > > very high resolution scans from multiple angles I don't think you could > > expect to extract the data visually. > > Okay, I see. Regardless--if it's that type of memory, then failure > to read it electrically could use a visual method as a fallback. > After all, these things were assembled (and one would expect, > inspected) manually. At least in the case of the HP9100, I am pretty sure it was tested _electrically_. One of the HP journals mentions some spcial-purpose test rigs used at the factory that compared the core-on-a-rope microcode store and the PCB main store with known-working examples. That said, there is a (temporarily) destructive visual method that would work on the HP9100 microcode sotre, I think. Namely to desolder each address wire from the PCB at one end (HP were kind enough to label the endpoints of these wires, so you can note down half the address at this point), then carefully untrhead it from the cores, ntoign which cores it loops through, and finally note down the other hald of the address from where it conencts to. Do that for all 64 wires and you have a 'dump' of the ROM. Finally, of course, replace and re-thread all the wires to restore the ROM contents. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 11 15:09:31 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. Solder pads don't get knocked off, nor bumped into different positions From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 11 15:35:24 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:35:24 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. > > Solder pads don't get knocked off, nor bumped into different positions > ...or wear out. Not too long ago, I found that the DIP switch on my DSD-440 was just plain worn out. - Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Nov 11 16:40:11 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:40:11 +0000 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: dwight elvey > >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >>> >>> Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in >>> reading out a LVDC core stack. >> >> Ouch!. I don't have much experience of reading core, but I've >> worked on >> core memory systems (I guess many others here have too). >> >> Rememebr that reading core is destructive. Basically, the read >> operation >> is to write a 0 to each core and see if there was a change in >> magnetic >> flux in that core. If there was, it _was_ a 1. If not, it was (and >> still >> is) a 0. Normally you then write the 1 back if appropriate. >> > > Hi > Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by > a digital scope. Shouldn't that be one digital scope channel for every bit in the word? > The rise times of the address and inhibit lines Do we know this core memory has "inhibit lines"? My only core experience is with 2D planes and I've not heard of inhibit lines, maybe they are the magic that allowed 3D stacks to be made. On my core, half the current required is supplied on two separate wires, if you don't know the current required and you send the critical amount down one wire you will clear the entire memory in one go. > > are mostly to be slow enough that it doesn't cause the sense > amplifier to trip on the coupling in the selected address line. > Other addresses are protected by the matching signal on the inhibit > line. Any reasonably slow ramp would work since one is using a > scope to record and not a sense amp. > The levels needed can be determined experimentally since the amplitude > of the read signal is indepedent of the address signal size > ( assumming > that there is sufficient signal to cause the core to switch ). > There is little leakage of flux outside of the cores. Any method > to read an exterenal flux would be difficult to detect. I doubt > a hall efect would be sensitive enough. Maybe a SQUID could be used. > There are ones that are used to detect small shorts inside of > IC packages. > Still, I think the easiest method is as I described, using an > electrical > method and tries using small increments in the current. > Dwight From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 11 17:13:03 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:13:03 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Sridhar Ayengar" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:14 AM > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> What I love about jumpers is that they last. I can bring up a machine >> that hasn't been operational in years and not worry about the correct >> values for all the settings that the "hardware" has forgotten. > > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. I've had those fail to "remember" correctly, presumably due to oxidation inside. But at least with those you can still read what the correct settings are supposed to be :-). Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 11 17:15:44 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:15:44 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com><200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com><20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: "Ian King" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:35 PM > ...or wear out. Not too long ago, I found that the DIP switch > on my DSD-440 was just plain worn out. - Ian Hey, me too. Darn thing decided to reformat my system disk because of it, too :-(. Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 11 17:22:02 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:22:02 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Glen Slick" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37 AM > Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder > is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the > interesting items go... I hadn't noticed yet, but that sucks. Vince From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Nov 11 17:22:20 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:22:20 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth In-Reply-To: <4918F84A.9060402@gmail.com> References: <4918F84A.9060402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <491A13AC.9090305@mindspring.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Antonio Carlini wrote: >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/10/2415393.htm >> >> An IBM729 Mark 5 tape drive grabbed the data for NASA. >> >> I presume that this implies NASA had tried and failed to find such a >> drive via IBM? > > I doubt it. If you throw enough money at them, they'll *build you a > new one*. > > Peace... Sridhar > Why don't they just send the tapes to CHM? They have a wall of 729 tape drives: http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401-CHM-Right-Labeled-.jpg And some of them are even working already, it seems, as part of the 1401 restore efforts: http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401RestorationPage.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 11 17:22:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:22:46 -0700 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <491A13C6.7090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Glen Slick" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37 AM >> Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder >> is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the >> interesting items go... > > I hadn't noticed yet, but that sucks. > > Vince > I notice more $%#! ads popping up to waste bandwith. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 11 17:01:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:01:33 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <49199E4D.19338.129754D@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2008 at 22:40, Roger Holmes wrote: > Do we know this core memory has "inhibit lines"? My only core > experience is with 2D planes and I've not heard of inhibit lines, > maybe they are the magic that allowed 3D stacks to be made. On my > core, half the current required is supplied on two separate wires, if > you don't know the current required and you send the critical amount > down one wire you will clear the entire memory in one go. Yup, it's in the IBM document http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 63841.pdf See page 73-74 (document 2-51). It even states that the inhibit lines are driven from +20vdc. The document is a wealth of information regarding memory organization, timing, drive, etc. I recommend reading it. Core memory is 28 bits wide, consisting of two 14-bit "syllables". Each syllable has 1 parity bit+13 data bits. How many computer systems had a 13/26 bit word? Is this the only one? Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 11 19:00:03 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:00:03 -0600 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <491A2A93.9000807@jbrain.com> Or, I could just make each of the cartridges a single task board, and have users either insert and remove them as needed, or make their own cartridge expander with switches to manually enable or disable each cartridge slot. Applications could then display screens stating things like: "I'm sorry, but this application requires 16K of expansion RAM for use. Please turn off the computer, insert a 16K RAM Expander or a 24K expansion cartridge with the upper 8KB turned off, and reload this application" "Could you tell me what UART cartridge you have inserted into the computer? I have no way of obtaining that information from the cartridge itself, so you'll have to enter it in my application." "We can't find the UART cartridge at $de40. Since you've no doubt inserted it, it is possible you've not set the address range to $de40-$de5f. Please turn off the machine, ensure the jumper for $de40 (located inside the cartridge shell) is closed and all other are open, and reload this application" "There's a bug in v1.3 of the expander cart, but I can't tell which version you are using, so please select and I will enable the workaround based on your selection" Jim From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 11 20:51:14 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:51:14 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: Yes, it truly sucks. I know that I've gotten to know a lot of folks in this community through the bidding histories for various items. I recall being on various email threads where a lot of us professed reluctance to get into bidding wars with each other that artificially inflate the prices of vintage items. Needless to say, that's contrary to eBay's interest in generating the greatest possible fees, and I believe that was the motivation behind this change. I don't buy the arguments about "increasing customer safety" - I can't think of a single plausible scenario where I was "threatened" by the old UI, and many ways that benefited me. In any case, I find myself shopping eBay less than I once did.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Slyngstad [vrs at msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core From: "Glen Slick" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37 AM > Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder > is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the > interesting items go... I hadn't noticed yet, but that sucks. Vince From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 11 20:56:21 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:56:21 -0800 Subject: 40k Ferrite Memory Core In-Reply-To: <491A13C6.7090303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com> , <491A13C6.7090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: eBay's UI has gotten worse and worse. "They don't care - they don't have to." I hate the poor design that causes major page restructuring after I think it's loaded - and I end up clicking on some stupid ad rather than the listing I want to see. When I worked for a major web destination, we worked hard to eliminate disruptions like that. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:22 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Glen Slick" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37 AM >> Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder >> is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the >> interesting items go... > > I hadn't noticed yet, but that sucks. > > Vince > I notice more $%#! ads popping up to waste bandwith. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 11 20:58:53 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:58:53 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <491A2A93.9000807@jbrain.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> , <491A2A93.9000807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Or you could be like other current software products that say helpful things like, " There has been an error." Or, " Unable to complete this task. Please contact your system administrator." Or, "Error -423586293856238392312867896532983." [In a dialog box with an OK button - what's OK about this error?] You're just trying to be too helpful.... ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain [brain at jbrain.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 5:00 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? Or, I could just make each of the cartridges a single task board, and have users either insert and remove them as needed, or make their own cartridge expander with switches to manually enable or disable each cartridge slot. Applications could then display screens stating things like: "I'm sorry, but this application requires 16K of expansion RAM for use. Please turn off the computer, insert a 16K RAM Expander or a 24K expansion cartridge with the upper 8KB turned off, and reload this application" "Could you tell me what UART cartridge you have inserted into the computer? I have no way of obtaining that information from the cartridge itself, so you'll have to enter it in my application." "We can't find the UART cartridge at $de40. Since you've no doubt inserted it, it is possible you've not set the address range to $de40-$de5f. Please turn off the machine, ensure the jumper for $de40 (located inside the cartridge shell) is closed and all other are open, and reload this application" "There's a bug in v1.3 of the expander cart, but I can't tell which version you are using, so please select and I will enable the workaround based on your selection" Jim From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Nov 12 03:35:41 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:35:41 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core References: <49162C7B.9080003@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90811110737jaa38426t111e634e4086b65e@mail.gmail.com> <491A13C6.7090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002b01c944aa$09880cd0$961ca8c0@mss.local> I thought the higest bidder was shown after the auction closed. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:22 PM Subject: [personal] Re: 40k Ferrite Memory Core > Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> From: "Glen Slick" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 7:37 AM >>> Anyone else notice that now you can no longer see who the high bidder >>> is and now you'll have no way of tracking where some of the >>> interesting items go... >> >> I hadn't noticed yet, but that sucks. >> >> Vince >> > I notice more $%#! ads popping up to waste bandwith. > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 09:03:12 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:03:12 -0600 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> , <491A2A93.9000807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <491AF030.5090904@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > Or, "Error -423586293856238392312867896532983." [In a dialog box with an > OK button - what's OK about this error?] Heh. I'm not sure what the best choice of wording would be there anyway - I've seen 'dismiss' sometimes instead of 'OK', but that could still be taken as ambiguous - are you dismissing the dialog box or the error itself... Of course real applications bomb out with a generic runtime error, and preferably take out major portions of the underlying OS along the way ;) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 12 09:14:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:14:20 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:40:11 +0000 > Subject: RE: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? > >> From: dwight elvey >> >>> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >>> >>>> >>>> Those of you with experience reading cores, we need your help in >>>> reading out a LVDC core stack. >>> >>> Ouch!. I don't have much experience of reading core, but I've >>> worked on >>> core memory systems (I guess many others here have too). >>> >>> Rememebr that reading core is destructive. Basically, the read >>> operation >>> is to write a 0 to each core and see if there was a change in >>> magnetic >>> flux in that core. If there was, it _was_ a 1. If not, it was (and >>> still >>> is) a 0. Normally you then write the 1 back if appropriate. >>> >> >> Hi >> Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by >> a digital scope. > > Shouldn't that be one digital scope channel for every bit in the word? > >> The rise times of the address and inhibit lines > > Do we know this core memory has "inhibit lines"? My only core > experience is with 2D planes and I've not heard of inhibit lines, > maybe they are the magic that allowed 3D stacks to be made. On my > core, half the current required is supplied on two separate wires, if > you don't know the current required and you send the critical amount > down one wire you will clear the entire memory in one go. > ---snip--- Hi Although, not described in most books on cores, the inhibit lines were quite common. The use made it so that there was greater margine between the signal level of the address line running through the row or column bit that were not addressed and the one bit the that was to be read or written. All the bits in a core plane would see the inhibit line. It would be opposite the direction of the selected address line. If a bit only had one address line, the inhibit would mostly cancel the field of that driven address line. This means that a larger current could be driven through a single address line since it was mostly canceled by the inhibit line when not crossed. When two address lines cross that were driven, the net effect would be a significantly larger field since that would see the sum of the three. Think of the inhibit line as kind of a negative bias. I'm not sure when the they started using these but most of the cores that I've seen have them. As for reading one bit at a time, most cores have separate drivers for each plane so it is not hard to read a single bit at a time without effecting the other bits in a word. A single digital scope input would be enough. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 09:15:41 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:15:41 -0600 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <491AF31D.9000506@gmail.com> Jim Brain wrote: > I'm considering designing some cartridges for the CBM line of computers, > but I'd prefer to skip masses of jumper blocks and move to a soft-config > option. I agree that retaining config in memory seems a better approach than jumpers in this particular case (much as I like jumpers) - so long as the loss of that state memory doesn't actually introduce any major inconveniences for the user. Can you extract some sort of meaningful version / ID information from the data held within the cartridge? If so, maybe keep the cartridges simple (just a bit of ROM), but have a box of tricks which plugs between the cartridges and the cartridge port on the machine itself and is responsible for retaining config/state information. (Of course this only works if you know that a user won't want to own two cartridges for application 'foobar' and hold different config info for each...) cheers Jules From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Nov 12 09:52:17 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:52:17 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Although, not described in most books on cores, the inhibit lines >were quite common. The use made it so that there was greater >margine between the signal level of the address line running through >the row or column bit that were not addressed and the one >bit the that was to be read or written. That doesn't sound right. The fundamental property of core memory is that the cores have a threshold flux level (hence magnetizing current level) that causes them to flip state, while currents modestly below the threshold (like 1/2 of it) have no effect. A "concident current" core memory has a grid of X and Y wires for addressing. The word address is split in half. One part selects one of the X wires, the other one of the Y wires. Each selected wire receives a current pulse half the threshold current. Result: the addressed core (at the intersection of the two selected wires) flips state to match the direction of magnetization for the X/Y currents, if it wasn't already in that state. For a read, the current direction is one way which is defined to represent zero. If the addressed core was in the "one" state, the state flip induces a current into the "sense" wire -- which runs through all the cores in the plane. So read is actually "read and clear". For a write, the current direction is the other way, representing "one". Write is done after read, and only to the planes of the core where you want a 1 bit in that word. So in the simplest case, you end up having to have per-plane control over the X/Y drivers to select whether a write will write a 1 (current is on) or a 0 (no action). The inhibit wire offers a different approach. In that case, the X/Y drivers simply select the word, and are unconditionally on for both read and write. To determine whether a 1 bit or a 0 bit will be written, the inhibit current is either off, or on, respectively. The inhibit current runs opposite the X/Y current. So if the inhibit current is off, the core at the X/Y intersection sees 0.5 + 0.5 times the threshold current, or 1x, so it flips state (to "one" in the case of a write). If the inhibit current is on, the core at the X/Y intersection sees 0.5 + 0.5 - 0.5 times the threshold, or 0.5, so it does not change state. None of this has anything to do with margin. Coincident core memory is absolutely dependent on the property that the 0.5 current level doesn't change the core state. Instead, the inhibit scheme simplifies the circuitry. I've seen some variants. The CDC 6000 series core memory doesn't use one inhibit wire, but rather two per core (so 5 wires per core total: X, Y, two inhibits, and sense). The memory plane is split into 16 squares (4 x 4). There are four separate "X" inhibit wires and four "Y" inhibits. So the word address does two things: it selects a specific X and Y address wire, and two of X and two of the Y bits select a specific pair of inhibit wires. I think the reason for doing this is to reduce the inductance of the inhibit wires (they only pass through 1024 cores rather than the full 4096) which allows higher speed operation. And the use of pairs of inhibit wires means that each inhibit wire carries 0.25 times the threshold current, which may also help the drive circuitry. One of these days I should take some of the material from the old (apparently uncopyrighted) 6600 training manual and adapt it for the core memory article in Wikipedia... paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 10:56:18 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:56:18 +0100 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0811110715n25c6cbcbq15007c8d49cfeb4d@mail.gmail.com> <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0811120856y2414989fmbb4d22b73f52f7fd@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/11 Mr Ian Primus : > --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I *may* soon be acquiring a NeXT slab. Snag is, while it has >> mouse, >> keyboard etc., it has no monitor. >> >> Does anyone know about what kind of connector I'd need >> to connect a >> plain ol' VGA type monitor to it? > >> I don't yet know if it's a colour or a mono slab. > > The color NeXT monitors connect with a 13w3 connector. I believe that they are fixed frequency, sync on green. A newer VGA monitor that supports sync-on-green should work with some connector adapting. But, the monitor is the LEAST of your worries. You see, I have a color slab too. And a color cube. I also have the keyboard, mouse, color monitor and sound box. And I've never been able to hook any of it up. I'm missing "the cable". > > NeXT couldn't just put connectors for everything on the back of the computer. No, that would have been too easy, to useful. For example, there is no keyboard port on the computer. No power switch either - that's on the keyboard. To connect ANYTHING to the computer, you need the sound box. This is a wedge shaped black box with a speaker in it - and the keyboard port. This connects to the computer through "the cable" - a special, three headed cable that connects to the computer, sound box and monitor. > > You need the sound box and this wacky cable. I have been unable to track one down, I've been looking on and off for a couple years. Never could find one at a sane price. I once even sat down with the schematics and drew up a diagram of what I thought the cable should be, so I could build one. But, since there is power in the cable, and I wasn't 100% sure I was right, I never built it. I'd love to find a real cable so I can ohm it out and determine the connections. > > Good luck... Not good. So if it has no monitor & no Sound Box, I'm likely to be stuffed? It does have a monitor cable, but that's just a standard-ish /style/ D25 or so to similar cable. Define a "sane price", by the way. That's so insanely variable as to be meaningless. For some people, no more than ?5 would be reasonable; for some, no more than ?50, and for some, ?500 might be justifiable. Assuming that one has a machine - say a mono mk1 25MHz slab - plus keyboard and mouse, and does not have and can not get a NeXT display, what do you need to connect a generic monitor and the NeXT keyboard and mouse to it? Or, for that matter, a Mac keyboard and mouse, 'cos as I understand it, it's all ADB? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 11:33:14 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:33:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af0811120856y2414989fmbb4d22b73f52f7fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Liam Proven wrote: > So if it has no monitor & no Sound Box, I'm likely > to be stuffed? It > does have a monitor cable, but that's just a > standard-ish /style/ D25 > or so to similar cable. I believe the mono machines don't use the odd three headed cable, since they don't use the seperate sound box. > Define a "sane price", by the way. That's so > insanely variable as to > be meaningless. For some people, no more than ?5 would be > reasonable; > for some, no more than ?50, and for some, ?500 might be > justifiable. I remember seeing someone trying to sell one on eBay for somewhere around $75. I really couldn't justify the cost. I haven't looked lately though. > Assuming that one has a machine - say a mono mk1 25MHz slab > - plus > keyboard and mouse, and does not have and can not get a > NeXT display, > what do you need to connect a generic monitor and the NeXT > keyboard > and mouse to it? Or, for that matter, a Mac keyboard and > mouse, 'cos > as I understand it, it's all ADB? It's not all ADB. There were two different types of keyboards/mice used on NeXT boxen. The early ones were NeXT specific, later ones were ADB. The type of keyboard used depends on the computer and the sound box. I believe you can use the ADB keyboards on some earlier computers if you use the ADB sound box - but I think you might also have to upgrade the ROM in the computer to work with the newer sound box - but don't quote me on that. I am not familiar with the mono NeXT gear, having never seen any "in the flesh", but it was my understanding that the "sound box" circuitry is in the monitor on these machines. So, you wouldn't need the sound box, only the monitor. Of course, you're still equally stuck, because the computer still doesn't have a keyboard port. But, you could still trick the computer into turning on (the NeXT FAQ has instructions), and then use the RS-232 port with a terminal. There may be a way to hack something to work - I have never done it, however. Anyone have schematics or pinouts of the mono machines? -Ian From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Nov 12 11:38:36 2008 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:38:36 -0500 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1226511516.12203.10.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 09:33 -0800, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Liam Proven wrote: > > > So if it has no monitor & no Sound Box, I'm likely > > to be stuffed? It > > does have a monitor cable, but that's just a > > standard-ish /style/ D25 > > or so to similar cable. > > I believe the mono machines don't use the odd three headed cable, since they don't use the seperate sound box. That's correct. The keyboard and mouse come out of the monitor. I'm getting ready to sell some NeXT stuff in the near future. I'll post the list here when I'm ready. Brian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 12 11:55:00 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:55:00 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <491B1874.90405@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/11/2008 17:33, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Liam Proven wrote: > I believe the mono machines don't use the odd three headed cable, > since they don't use the seperate sound box. That's right, they use a single cable from the monitor to the 19-pin D-connector on the machine itself. That single cable on the monitor carries power for the monitor, keyboard, etc. > It's not all ADB. There were two different types of keyboards/mice > used on NeXT boxen. The early ones were NeXT specific, later ones > were ADB. The type of keyboard used depends on the computer and the > sound box. I believe you can use the ADB keyboards on some earlier > computers if you use the ADB sound box - but I think you might also > have to upgrade the ROM in the computer to work with the newer sound > box - but don't quote me on that. I believe that's correct, but mine has a NeXT mono monitor so I've never needed to test the theory. If it works, you may actually be better off with the soundbox plus non-NeXT monitor solution, because most of the the tubes in the mono monitors are now suffering from low emission and are rather dim. > I am not familiar with the mono NeXT gear, having never seen any "in > the flesh", but it was my understanding that the "sound box" > circuitry is in the monitor on these machines. So, you wouldn't need > the sound box, only the monitor. Of course, you're still equally > stuck, because the computer still doesn't have a keyboard port. That's correct too, although I believe (subject to the caveats a paragraph back) that you can use a sound box instead. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 12 13:26:54 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:26:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <491AF030.5090904@gmail.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D9A1.3080009@gmail.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> , <491A2A93.9000807@jbrain.com> <491AF030.5090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081112112445.G27219@shell.lmi.net> Ian King wrote: > Or, "Error -423586293856238392312867896532983." [In a dialog box with an > OK button - what's OK about this error?] "Possible parity error; All of your life's work and all backups will be reformatted. Is that OK with you?" From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 12 13:50:52 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:50:52 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <491B339C.7040902@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Although, not described in most books on cores, the inhibit lines > were quite common. The use made it so that there was greater > margine between the signal level of the address line running through > the row or column bit that were not addressed and the one > bit the that was to be read or written. Perhaps that was the purpose in some core systems, though I've never heard of it. In the core systems with which I'm acquainted, the inhibit line is used to inhibit writing to the otherwise-selected core in one plane. Each plane in a stack is used for a single bit of the parallel data word. For instance, a 4Kx12 stack would have twelve planes each organized as 64x64. The same X-Y decode and drive is used for all twelve planes, so in order to write a data word having ones in some bit positions and zeros in others, the inhibit lines for planes corresponding to the ones are active (or vice versa, depending on the system). In very early core stacks, there were separate wires for sense and inhibit, so there were four wires through each core. It wasn't long before they started using the same wire for both sense and inhibit. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/coremem/index.html#3wire Eric From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 12 14:52:47 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:52:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Does anyone have any pictures of the IBM 1602 system? It was the same vintage as the 1401 (1959), and briefly known as the CADET (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try), before the name was pulled. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Nov 12 14:58:52 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:58:52 -0600 Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: IBM 1620? That acronym fits it nicely, because the 1620 (model I that is) did add and multiply by table lookup, so it couldn't add unless the right data were first loaded into memory. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM 1602 Does anyone have any pictures of the IBM 1602 system? It was the same vintage as the 1401 (1959), and briefly known as the CADET (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try), before the name was pulled. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mwichary at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 15:08:30 2008 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:08:30 -0800 Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1debc0350811121308ga2a5e38udce79c1170b92f56@mail.gmail.com> If it's indeed 1620, we have one here at the Computer History Museum. Let me know if you need specific photos, I'm there fairly often with my camera. Here are some on Flickr: http://flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=ibm+1620&m=text From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 15:27:27 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:27:27 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , Message-ID: <491AD9BF.32508.5F9A55D@cclist.sydex.com> Yup, the 1620. More specifically, the 1620 Model I. Later versions of the machine didn't require in-memory tables to do arithmetic. But the original version required at least the addition table and, if multiply was used, the multiplication table. This was a decimal machine, addressed by digit, with 6 bits per digit (8421+word mark+parity). Core was 12 bits wide, with odd-even locations in the same word. The neat thing is that the 1620 was a variable-word-length machine; numbers were addressed by the location of their least significant digit and terminated by the occurrence of a work mark on the most significant digit (a word mark on the least signficant signified a negative number). Records were addressed by the lowest address position and terminated by a record mark. One could manipulate numbers with thousands of digits with no particular special programming effort. Or, one could alter the arithmetic tables to do arithmetic in a different radix (sometimes this happened accidentally). Clearing memory was a matter only one instruction. A machine that was great fun, if not glacially slow. Dijkstra hated it. Here's a sample program: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ibm-1620-sps-916.html Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 12 15:34:35 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:34:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > IBM 1620? That acronym fits it nicely, because the 1620 (model I that is) did add and multiply by table lookup, so it couldn't add unless the right data were first loaded into memory. I believe I may have been mistaken in the use of "CADET", due to some questionable references on the 'net. I know what a 1620 looks like, and have pictures of the one at the CHM. This is what I'm trying to find: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/IBM1602-L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Nov 12 15:47:50 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:47:50 -0600 Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Interesting. Google has some references, but they all seem to be to the same text, from a 1959 "history" entry that refers to the 1401 and the 1602 and "CADET". It looks like everyone is stealing the same text. One copy shows up on a high school website ("Copyright xyz high school"). Oops. And there are copies in other languages, Thai and Persian included... Also plenty of "for sale" notices of that artifact you mentioned. But I see no other detail. paul -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IBM 1602 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: > IBM 1620? That acronym fits it nicely, because the 1620 (model I that is) did add and multiply by table lookup, so it couldn't add unless the right data were first loaded into memory. I believe I may have been mistaken in the use of "CADET", due to some questionable references on the 'net. I know what a 1620 looks like, and have pictures of the one at the CHM. This is what I'm trying to find: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/IBM1602-L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 12 16:01:03 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:01:03 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <491AD9BF.32508.5F9A55D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's a sample program: > > http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ibm-1620-sps-916.html Idle curiousity: under what scenario do you have an assembler for the 1620 running? (something new or something old running on layers of emulation?) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 12 15:54:15 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 11, 8 01:09:31 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. > > Solder pads don't get knocked off, nor bumped into different positions Clearly you've never had a PCB trace lift off the board by having soldered it too many times... However, I did once have a very nasty fault on a PDP11/34. It would start to boot RT11 (IIRC) and then trap to something like the power fail vector a short way into the boot. The PSU was fine, ACLO and DCLO were not being asserted, and so on. After spending many hours going through the processor trap logic, I finally found a DIP switch on the DL11-W console interface had been knocked when I put the card into the machine. This changed its interrupt vector into the one for the power fail trap. As soon as the OS enabled interrupts on the conosle card, it got sent to the power fail trap location. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 12 16:21:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <491AD9BF.32508.5F9A55D@cclist.sydex.com> <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20081112141211.D34547@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Idle curiousity: under what scenario do you have an assembler for the 1620 running? > (something new or something old running on layers of emulation?) 40 some years ago, Merritt College (Oakland, origin of the Black Panthers) was running PDQ FORTRAN and a 1401 emulator on a 1620. Those were the good old days. Even if it was uphill in both directions. My favorite teacher was a real grouch who didn't like me, but he really knew his stuff. ~25 years ago, when I got tenure, I was given a very old wood desk to use. It was still full of papers from my old teacher (who had died about 30 years ago). One of my colleagues had the card decks for the software for the 1620, until the college administrators had it all dumpstered one weekend. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 16:22:41 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:22:41 -0800 Subject: IBM 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , Message-ID: <491AE6B1.26517.62C3612@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 15:47, Paul_Koning at dell.com wrote: > Interesting. > > Google has some references, but they all seem to be to the same text, > from a 1959 "history" entry that refers to the 1401 and the 1602 and > "CADET". It looks like everyone is stealing the same text. One copy > shows up on a high school website ("Copyright xyz high school"). > Oops. And there are copies in other languages, Thai and Persian > included... Also plenty of "for sale" notices of that artifact you > mentioned. But I see no other detail. Indeed, there's even a blog entry from a failed bidder who thought this belonged to the 1620. But I've never heard of the 1602 box and a web search of an IBM "processing adapter" shows zip. Was this thing even part of the 1620 line? The number seems to defy the general pattern that has the CPU as the lowest-numbered item. E.g., 1620 = CPU, 1621 = paper tape reader, 1622 = card reader/punch, 1624 = paper tape punch, 1623 + 1625 = auxiliary core storage, 1626 = plotter controller, 1627 = plotter, etc. This thing, whatever it is, sounds more like something associated with unit-record equipment; perhaps related to the 602 calculating punch? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 16:27:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:27:53 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 14:01, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Idle curiousity: under what scenario do you have an assembler for the > 1620 running? (something new or something old running on layers of > emulation?) Hand-assembled and entered, using my trusty Monitor II SPS manual by my side. Code entered and tested using SIMH. It wasn't that hard--I can remember most of the 1620 opcodes even today--and I think I may even still have part of a "1620 Absolute Coding System" pad washing around somewhere among my flotsam and jetsam. Has anyone set up a 1620 SIMH Monitor II simulation complete with a 1311? It might be fun, although I'll probably discover how much patience I had when I was much younger when I go to use it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 16:30:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:30:37 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 11, 8 01:09:31 pm, Message-ID: <491AE88D.15002.6337908@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 21:54, Tony Duell wrote: > Clearly you've never had a PCB trace lift off the board by having > soldered it too many times... One can always wire-wrap jumper headers if one doesn't like the idea of the little jumper blocks falling off. Pretty much as permanent as foil-pad jumpers. Cheers, Chuck From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Nov 12 16:37:42 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:37:42 -0600 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Is Monitor II available? >From what I recall it ran pretty fast even on the original iron, so on SIMH it should really fly. For even more retrocomputing fun, you could try to dig up the implementation of Dynamo -- one of my fellow students had that running on our 1620 Mod 2, thanks to Fortran probably -- and run the old Club of Rome sims. Good for comic relief. Paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 12 17:32:48 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:32:48 -0500 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 12 November 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Nov 2008 at 14:01, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Idle curiousity: under what scenario do you have an assembler for > > the 1620 running? (something new or something old running on layers > > of emulation?) > > Hand-assembled and entered, using my trusty Monitor II SPS manual by > my side. Code entered and tested using SIMH. Are there any guides for writing 1620 assembly online anywhere? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 12 18:22:20 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:22:20 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <491B5220.D1C20F59@cs.ubc.ca> <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com> <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <491B733C.6010500@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 12 November 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12 Nov 2008 at 14:01, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> Idle curiousity: under what scenario do you have an assembler for >>> the 1620 running? (something new or something old running on layers >>> of emulation?) >>> >> Hand-assembled and entered, using my trusty Monitor II SPS manual by >> my side. Code entered and tested using SIMH. >> > > Are there any guides for writing 1620 assembly online anywhere? > > Pat > A pen works well, but you can erase if you use a pencil. Finding the coding sheet could be harder ... same with a keypunch operator. :) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 17:44:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:44:47 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491AE7E9.20070.630F6DC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <491AF9EF.21764.6775F05@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 18:32, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Are there any guides for writing 1620 assembly online anywhere? http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/ibm/1620/C26-5600- 1_Symbolic_Programming_System_Apr63.pdf Strangely, bitsavers doesn't have the Monitor II-D reference. I'll have to put mine in my will so that Al gets it when I come to my own personal BSOD. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 18:35:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:35:54 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B733C.6010500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <491B733C.6010500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 17:22, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > A pen works well, but you can erase if you use a pencil. Finding the > coding sheet could be harder ... same with a keypunch operator. :) Nah, just hit "LOAD" and code away at the console typewriter. We don't need no stinking coding forms! Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 12 18:47:42 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:47:42 -0700 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <491B733C.6010500@jetnet.ab.ca> <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <491B792E.6020303@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Nov 2008 at 17:22, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > >> A pen works well, but you can erase if you use a pencil. Finding the >> coding sheet could be harder ... same with a keypunch operator. :) >> > > Nah, just hit "LOAD" and code away at the console typewriter. We > don't need no stinking coding forms! > > Cheers, > Chuck > I guess you have a real machine, hiding in the back woods somewhere. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 12 19:54:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:54:13 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B792E.6020303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com>, <491B792E.6020303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <491B1845.32345.6EDDDED@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2008 at 17:47, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I guess you have a real machine, hiding in the back woods somewhere. That *would* be kind of cool, but no. I wonder if one could take a cheap electronic typewriter and write a simulator to fit in one? Of course, the typewriter wouldn't have the feeling of "going to fly apart after the next carriage return" and no blinkenlights, but it'd be fun. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 08:09:53 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:09:53 +0100 Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0811120856y2414989fmbb4d22b73f52f7fd@mail.gmail.com> <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0811130609u786be346uf96d47737f49707@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/12 Mr Ian Primus : > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Liam Proven wrote: > >> So if it has no monitor & no Sound Box, I'm likely >> to be stuffed? It >> does have a monitor cable, but that's just a >> standard-ish /style/ D25 >> or so to similar cable. > > I believe the mono machines don't use the odd three headed cable, since they don't use the seperate sound box. Aha! Worth knowing. Thanks. >> Define a "sane price", by the way. That's so >> insanely variable as to >> be meaningless. For some people, no more than ?5 would be >> reasonable; >> for some, no more than ?50, and for some, ?500 might be >> justifiable. > > I remember seeing someone trying to sell one on eBay for somewhere around $75. I really couldn't justify the cost. I haven't looked lately though. Now, I would call that quite cheap to get a classic NeXT working. And I am **NOT** a rich man, but this was a $5000 computer. >> Assuming that one has a machine - say a mono mk1 25MHz slab >> - plus >> keyboard and mouse, and does not have and can not get a >> NeXT display, >> what do you need to connect a generic monitor and the NeXT >> keyboard >> and mouse to it? Or, for that matter, a Mac keyboard and >> mouse, 'cos >> as I understand it, it's all ADB? > > It's not all ADB. There were two different types of keyboards/mice used on NeXT boxen. The early ones were NeXT specific, later ones were ADB. The type of keyboard used depends on the computer and the sound box. I believe you can use the ADB keyboards on some earlier computers if you use the ADB sound box - but I think you might also have to upgrade the ROM in the computer to work with the newer sound box - but don't quote me on that. OMG. That sounds horrible... :?( > I am not familiar with the mono NeXT gear, having never seen any "in the flesh", but it was my understanding that the "sound box" circuitry is in the monitor on these machines. So, you wouldn't need the sound box, only the monitor. Of course, you're still equally stuck, because the computer still doesn't have a keyboard port. > > But, you could still trick the computer into turning on (the NeXT FAQ has instructions), and then use the RS-232 port with a terminal. A text-only NeXT sounds about as much use as an immaculately-restored vintage car with no wheels on. I can't see any point whatsoever! > There may be a way to hack something to work - I have never done it, however. Anyone have schematics or pinouts of the mono machines? I can see myself commissioning a breakout cable for this soon... 8?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Nov 13 12:57:53 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:57:53 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200811121832.48882.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <491B733C.6010500@jetnet.ab.ca> <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: My first language was FORTRAN, on punched cards; the teacher of my high school programming class would send the decks to the school district's main office, where they'd be run on the S/360. We'd get our printouts three business days later. You learned to be careful about punctuation and spelling, with a three-day turnaround! But always being the daredevil, I soon eschewed the coding forms and would compose at the keypunch (an IBM 129). It drove my teacher nuts - especially because my programs usually worked. It was years later that I learned the coding forms were usually the programmer's only tool, and unskilled keypunch operators would actually create the decks. So I was really coding on the edge! -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: 1602 On 12 Nov 2008 at 17:22, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > A pen works well, but you can erase if you use a pencil. Finding the > coding sheet could be harder ... same with a keypunch operator. :) Nah, just hit "LOAD" and code away at the console typewriter. We don't need no stinking coding forms! Cheers, Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 13 14:08:32 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:08:32 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay Message-ID: <10D3DB23E8D446A7A6365761DD555E14@xp1800> Plug : I did put one of my intergrals on ebay item 370112051894 It works fine, only the printheadcable is damaged by corrosion. -Rik From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 13 14:20:30 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:20:30 +0000 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <200811131802.mADI1Iqv088594@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811131802.mADI1Iqv088594@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> I have at long last sold one of my two ICT 1301 computers, built in 1962. I will soon want to supply the purchaser with original manuals, technical drawings, software listings, tapes, punched cards etc, some of which are now unique. Before doing this I would like to put these into modern machine readable form so they can be published on the web. I am interested in how I can go about this for each of the different types of information, which varies from hand written coding sheets (which include the comments which were never punched onto the cards) through 80 column cards in BCD code extended in a non IBM way (not EBDIC), to drawings about A1 size (US 'D' size or 22" by 34" approx) which are too big to scan and stitch together and too frail for a drum scanner. The punched cards include columns representing all the number 0 to 15 plus 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. I even have some 160 column cards, same as 80 column cards but with two round hole positions in each normal rectangular hole position. I can read the 80 column cards but not the 160 column ones. Though I have been aware of, and used Bitsavers for some time, I thought their aim was mainly archiving the microprocessor era until I deleted the tail of URL of a page and looked at the home page with a description of the project. It seems that the information I have is part of exactly what they are seeking to archive. I estimate I have 300-400 drawings, 90,000 punched cards, 50 manuals, 3000 coding sheets and 1000 sheets specifying source, destination and route of every signal in the computer. There are also 300 off 1/2 inch magnetic tapes but these are 10 track (Ampex TM4) tapes and I think only my 1301 will be able to read them. I am in the south eastern corner of England if that makes a difference. Your thoughts on how to do this in an efficient manner, what formats to use, sources of help and equipment to do the job and anything else you would like to throw in. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 14:30:28 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <529044.39317.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Roger Holmes wrote: > The punched cards include columns representing all the > number 0 to 15 plus 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. I even have some 160 > column cards, same as 80 column cards but with two round > hole positions in each normal rectangular hole position. I > can read the 80 column cards but not the 160 column ones. I had actually been thinking about this very problem the other day - how to read in old punch cards without a functional punch card reader. I was thinking that a modern automatic sheet feeding scanner could be pressed into service here. Replace the white backing in the scanner with black material to provide good contrast. Scan the cards, preserving order, into a good machine readable format, something easy to decode. Then, with some not-too-complicated software, one could "read" the scanned image of the cards, producing binary data. It would be a worthwile (pronounced "fun") hack, and while it probably wouldn't be able to take the place of a good, high quality card reader, it should substitute for an unusual or unavailable reader. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 13 14:30:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:30:33 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <491C1DE9.29002.2E574DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2008 at 10:57, Ian King wrote: > My first language was FORTRAN, on punched cards; the teacher of my > high school programming class would send the decks to the school > district's main office, where they'd be run on the S/360. We'd get > our printouts three business days later. You learned to be careful > about punctuation and spelling, with a three-day turnaround! Even in the corporate environment, you often only got a max of 2 or 3 runs per day. > But always being the daredevil, I soon eschewed the coding forms and > would compose at the keypunch (an IBM 129). It drove my teacher nuts - > especially because my programs usually worked. The height of luxury was composing your programs at the operator's console of a CDC 6600, using the o26 PP utility and assembling/compiling using DIS. Yet, I knew several programmers who worked just this way, myself included. Sometimes, the keypunch was just too far away... If you needed cards, you could always copy the file to the punch queue. For whatever dedicated block time went for back then ($500/hour?) it was better than lighting cigars with $20 bills. > It was years later that I learned the coding forms were usually the > programmer's only tool, and unskilled keypunch operators would > actually create the decks. So I was really coding on the edge! -- I learned very early on to develop a very chummy relationship with the ladies of the keypunch pool. It made all the difference in the end product, my chickenscratches notwithstanding. List the result on a 407, hand-check against your original coding forms. It was surprising how many logic errors you could turn up in this process. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 13 14:52:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: <10D3DB23E8D446A7A6365761DD555E14@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Nov 13, 8 09:08:32 pm Message-ID: > > Plug : I did put one of my intergrals on ebay item 370112051894 No, I am not going top bid on it, I already have a pair... > It works fine, only the printheadcable is damaged by corrosion. Argh!. Let me guess... Somebody lefet a cartridge in the printer. The printhead flexipring in an IPC is longer than that in a normal Thinkjet due to the layout of the case/PCBs. So you can't just repalce it with a part from a THinkjet. Probably the easiest thing to do is to use the Thinkjet cable, then extend it with normal ribbon cable to connect to the PCB. The power part, between the printer chassis and the PCB, doesn'tmove during printing, so doesn't need to be flexible. -tony From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Nov 13 14:57:50 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:57:50 +0100 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> References: <200811131802.mADI1Iqv088594@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20081113215750.1d8fd045.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Roger Holmes wrote: > Before doing this I would like to put these into modern machine > readable form so they can be published on the web. Maybe the person(s) behind http://www.ict1301.co.uk/ have some interest in this too? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 13 15:06:59 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:59 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <10D3DB23E8D446A7A6365761DD555E14@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Nov13, 8 09:08:32 pm Message-ID: <1611BBFCAEB54779A55FC076D720E978@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: donderdag 13 november 2008 21:53 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay > > Plug : I did put one of my intergrals on ebay item 370112051894 No, I am not going top bid on it, I already have a pair... > It works fine, only the printheadcable is damaged by corrosion. Argh!. Let me guess... Somebody lefet a cartridge in the printer. The printhead flexipring in an IPC is longer than that in a normal Thinkjet due to the layout of the case/PCBs. So you can't just repalce it with a part from a THinkjet. Probably the easiest thing to do is to use the Thinkjet cable, then extend it with normal ribbon cable to connect to the PCB. The power part, between the printer chassis and the PCB, doesn'tmove during printing, so doesn't need to be flexible. -tony It wasn't ment for you in the first place ;-) Jos maybe.. You just bought that beautiful HB-IB clock witch I was following until I could free the money for it :-( Well I hope the nex one is mine.. I have one working thinkjet the others are having bad cables too, the blody ink of the cardridges is almost as bad as leaking batteries. So I'm not going to canabalize that one for the integral. But if you got spare cables... -Rik From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Nov 13 16:15:14 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:15:14 -0500 Subject: was 'Re: IBM 1620; was: 1602', now, the keypunch pool In-Reply-To: <491C1DE9.29002.2E574DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <491B05EA.841.6A62CEF@cclist.sydex.com>, <491C1DE9.29002.2E574DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <512.1226614514@mini> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >I learned very early on to develop a very chummy relationship with >the ladies of the keypunch pool. It made all the difference in the >end product, my chickenscratches notwithstanding. It's funny you mentioned that. I was thinking the exact same thing. I often did PL/1 in a mostly Cobol shop and after a while they gave my sheets to the one of the more adept ladies (and they were 100% women, which seems odd now). I always tried to make her feel special - because she was to me - she could tell the difference between - and _ and the was not afraid to hit the ; key. We had a pretty mixed group of programmers (men and women) but the keypunch and key-to-tape group was 100% women. And they were *good*. -brad From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Nov 13 16:30:09 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:30:09 -0500 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <20081113215750.1d8fd045.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200811131802.mADI1Iqv088594@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> <20081113215750.1d8fd045.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <7d3530220811131430y243d0b9eg6837705095cd4b29@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> Before doing this I would like to put these into modern machine >> readable form so they can be published on the web. > > Maybe the person(s) behind http://www.ict1301.co.uk/ have some interest > in this too? > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > Guess who owns that site? His name starts with an 'R' and ends with "oger Holmes" ;) John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 13 22:01:03 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:01:03 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 Message-ID: <491CF7FF.6060404@bitsavers.org> > Strangely, bitsavers doesn't have the Monitor II-D reference. I've not had time to scan any of the 1620 material in CHM's collection. The 1620 cards at CHM were read and indexed a while ago, and I read some more from Doug Martin recently. I hadn't looked at Dave Babcock's 1620 web site in a long time, looks like nothing much was ever filled in for it. That's sad, since we have quite a bit of information on the machine. http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ and http://jowsey.com/java/sim1620/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 13 22:04:25 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:04:25 -0800 Subject: Old tape drive proves its worth Message-ID: <491CF8C9.7020900@bitsavers.org> > Why don't they just send the tapes to CHM? They have a wall of 729 tape drives There is no good reason for them to be considering a 729, other than apparently they couldn't find another 7-track drive in Oz. Off-line conversations from several people have strongly suggested to them not to attempt recovery using a 40+ year old tape drive. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 13 22:31:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:31:00 -0800 Subject: IBM 1620; was: 1602 In-Reply-To: <491CF7FF.6060404@bitsavers.org> References: <491CF7FF.6060404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <491C8E84.28004.49D4FE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2008 at 20:01, Al Kossow wrote: > I hadn't looked at Dave Babcock's 1620 web site in a long time, looks like > nothing much was ever filled in for it. That's sad, since we have quite a > bit of information on the machine. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ > and > http://jowsey.com/java/sim1620/ I don't think much has changed on the site in a year. Too bad. SIMH works fine for a lot of things, though. Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Nov 13 23:49:34 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:49:34 +0100 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <7d3530220811131430y243d0b9eg6837705095cd4b29@mail.gmail.com> References: <200811131802.mADI1Iqv088594@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7D5C4B30-042B-4175-9AA9-65CA2151B344@microspot.co.uk> <20081113215750.1d8fd045.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <7d3530220811131430y243d0b9eg6837705095cd4b29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081114064934.dd234594.lehmann@ans-netz.de> John Floren wrote: > > Guess who owns that site? His name starts with an 'R' and ends with > "oger Holmes" ;) Tried to find his name on the site because the same came to my mind - but I was not able to find it ;) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 05:32:16 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: <419832.30984.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, I guess people have looked at the pdp-8/m-2 Chassis: http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/pdp8m-2/04112008359.jpg There are some interesting goodies as it's completely max'd out! It appears to have 3x8K memory (a stunning 24K!). M8320 = OmniBus Bus terminator loads. G111 = 8K Memory. M849 = Memory Shield. M8357 = RX8E (8" Dual Floppy controller). M8650 = Teletype control. M847YA = Hardware Bootstrap Loader. M8350 = Posibus interface (surprising). M837 = Memory Extension / Timeshare. M8300 = CPU Regs. M8310 = CPU Regs Ctrl. M8330 = CPU Timing. It was last tested (amazingly) as late as July 1990, a mere 18 years ago. Again, I'm wondering who took the pdp-8/m: Was it the Surrey Museum or Peter? Also Peter, you said it was a simple circuit, do you have the circuit diagrams and procedure for converting a normal PC-based 5.25" Floppy drive to work as an RX-50? I did use PUTR recently on a PC to transfer RT-11 to 5.25" disk so I could install it on my pdp-11/73 (before the PSU failed!); so I know they *can* be used in some sense. Also Johnny, are you actually offering a pdp-8/m or /f!!!!? -cheers from julz @P From bqt at softjar.se Tue Nov 11 07:08:07 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:08:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <419832.30984.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <419832.30984.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <491983B7.3040005@softjar.se> Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > I guess people have looked at the pdp-8/m-2 Chassis: > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/pdp8m-2/04112008359.jpg > > There are some interesting goodies as it's completely max'd out! > > It appears to have 3x8K memory (a stunning 24K!). > > M8320 = OmniBus Bus terminator loads. > G111 = 8K Memory. > M849 = Memory Shield. > M8357 = RX8E (8" Dual Floppy controller). > M8650 = Teletype control. > M847YA = Hardware Bootstrap Loader. > M8350 = Posibus interface (surprising). > M837 = Memory Extension / Timeshare. > M8300 = CPU Regs. > M8310 = CPU Regs Ctrl. > M8330 = CPU Timing. > > It was last tested (amazingly) as late as July 1990, a mere 18 years ago. > > Again, I'm wondering who took the pdp-8/m: Was it the Surrey Museum or Peter? > > Also Peter, you said it was a simple circuit, do you have the circuit diagrams and procedure for converting a normal PC-based 5.25" Floppy drive to work as an RX-50? I did use PUTR recently on a PC to transfer RT-11 to 5.25" disk so I could install it on my pdp-11/73 (before the PSU failed!); so I know they *can* be used in some sense. > > Also Johnny, are you actually offering a pdp-8/m or /f!!!!? I've already handed out a couple of 8/m and 8/a systems over the years. I didn't plan on splitting with any more, but I might be convinced to part with one for some other "fun" hardware. Johnny From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Nov 11 08:11:32 2008 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:11:32 -0000 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? Message-ID: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local> It had both core and rope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 11 November 2008 07:40 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? On 10 Nov 2008 at 22:37, dwight elvey wrote: > Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by a > digital scope. The rise times of the address and inhibit lines are > mostly to be slow enough that it doesn't cause the sense amplifier to > trip on the coupling in the selected address line. > Other addresses are protected by the matching signal on the inhibit > line. Any reasonably slow ramp would work since one is using a scope > to record and not a sense amp. Putting to bed the idea of the "core rope" program store, the 1964 document on the launch computer is pretty clear that this is ordinary read-write core storing the program: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 63841.pdf In particular, item 2-37 begins "Reading a ferrite-core memory destroys the information in the memory." It then goes on to describe the restore part of a read operation. No mention of "core rope" is made. The document, all 200-some pages contains a great deal of detail on the computer, including memory operation and organization. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 11 13:49:32 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:49:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <4919D2C2.8010307@jbrain.com> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <200811110007.TAA23402@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4919D2C2.8010307@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200811112006.PAA04411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Personally, I prefer jumpers to soft config for two reasons. >> One is that soft config is approximately never documented; [...] > I'm not a fan of jumperless cards in PCs, for the reasons you note. > But, on the PC, you rarely need to modify those settings once > configured. But if you do, you're screwed. I've got at least two peecee cards with soft config and no idea where to find the soft config program even if there were no other obstacles to my using it - and the cards don't Just Work, so either they're busted or the soft config is set to something unusual and I don't know what. Effectively, the hardware is likely bricked for me thanks to soft config. (Hmm, the conspiracy theorist in me suggests this is an Evil Plot to sell more cards....) > In the situations I am considering, that's just not an option. And, > the number of jumpers I would need to include would be daunting in > some scenarios [...] There _is_ that, it's true. >> Two [...] >> This one can be addressed by having a real hardware switch of some >> sort (such as a jumper) that acts as a write enable. [...] > This is a good idea, and I think I can support this. With ISA cards, if you soft-config them to an unusual address, they can be approximately impossible to find if you lose your record of the config. I'd really like it if, in addition to a write-protect jumper, they had a "force default address" jumper to recover from that condition. (The same applies in principle to any bus with a large sparse address space, such as Qbus, but not a bus with a small dense address space, such as PCI. I'm somewhat on the fence as to whether I prefer write-enable jumpers or write-protect jumpers - though if you use something like a switch instead, that's irrelevant.) Now, I don't know enough about your particular case to know whether your config includes enough addressing information to produce this "lost config means can't config back" problem, but, if so, you might consider a second jumper/switch/etc with "force default address" functionality - or perhaps make it a three-way setting covering both (RO, soft addr; RW, soft addr; RW, default addr - I see no particular need for RO default addr). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 11 14:22:32 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:22:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> References: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...SS20...] >> Sounds nice. What processor cards are installed? Can you tell me >> anything about the VSIMM capacity? > I haven't touched the box in a long time. What I remember is that it > had two processors, and they were the fastest available for that > model. It had the largest VSIMM available (8Mb?). Yes, 8 is the big size. Lets you do TrueColor at >1152x900. (You can with 4M, too, but everything after the 4M point duplicates pixels from elsewhere on the screen - it appears to be just not decoding the high address bit. Not actually very useful.) > It had 2 disks. As I recall, it had the maximum possible memory > compliment. Everything I remember about the box says that as SS20's > go, it couldn't get any better. I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two CPUs in a single Mbus form factor. Sounds like a sweet 20, alright. Whoever ends up with it take good care of it, 'k? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 12 05:55:56 2008 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:55:56 -0000 Subject: NeXT station cables - was RE: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <697857.48621.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>>> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: 11 November 2008 15:38 You need the sound box and this wacky cable. I have been unable to track one down, I've been looking on and off for a couple years. Never could find one at a sane price. I once even sat down with the schematics and drew up a diagram of what I thought the cable should be, so I could build one. But, since there is power in the cable, and I wasn't 100% sure I was right, I never built it. I'd love to find a real cable so I can ohm it out and determine the connections. <<<< I may be able to help. Some time ago at a boot sale I picked-up some NeXT items: 3 sound boxes, 3 cables, and a mouse. They were about to go into a skip in my next clearout, but it seems like they would be more useful than I thought. I have no idea whether these are in working order. I am in the UK about 30 miles from London (use of terms like "skip" and "boot sale" are a good clue as to which side of the Atlantic I am!) if you email me (address below) please use plain text with no attachments and retain the subject otherwise you may get lost in the SPAM Andy andy holt tesco net with at in the middle and dots as appropriate. From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Nov 12 09:32:15 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:32:15 -0500 Subject: Source for 27C256's Message-ID: <1226503935.8794.3.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Yo, I need about 50 UV erasable 27c256 for a project. Anyone have a stash they'd be willing to part with reasonably priced? -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 12 13:54:42 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:54:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: NeXTstation advice sought In-Reply-To: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <14815.26516.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200811122002.PAA17014@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I am not familiar with the mono NeXT gear, having never seen any "in > the flesh", but it was my understanding that the "sound box" > circuitry is in the monitor on these machines. Or the CPU box, yes. For a mono NeXT, all you need is CPU box (cube or slab), monitor, keyboard, mouse, and the 19-pin D-sub cable between the CPU box and the monitor. Oh, and power and Ethernet, but those are bog-standard. :-) I do have a slightly different NeXT cable which I could buzz out if it would help anything. It's got three ends: two male 13W3 and one male 19-pin D-sub. (I might have one of the three-head octopus cables - hm, would that make it a tripus cable? :-) - mentioned upthread, but if so I have no idea where it is.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rikbos at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 12 16:22:08 2008 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:22:08 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : Integral PC on ebay Message-ID: <2505772A8DED45E1BA8F44C083B43C3B@xp1800> I did put one of my HP integrals on ebay item 370112051894 -Rik From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 13 00:11:32 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:11:32 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <491B339C.7040902@brouhaha.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <491B339C.7040902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <491BC514.8020007@jwsss.com> I had experience with one of the programmers for the instrumentation unit for the S5 stage which was in the ring between the first and second stages, I think. I was an expert witness in a lawsuit having nothing at all to do with this, but he was the expert called for the other party. To make a long story short, expert witness' credentials frequently turn out to be who has the best credentials. I talked to him before we went in to a deposition, and I granted him that point before we even started. I feel privileged to have met him, and wish we could have visited more on the subject rather than what we were paid to do. Sadly I was not even supposed to get into anything but luckily this was told to us after we had chatted. I think his name was Tom Follett, and I do not recall ever finding anything about him. I believe that he had a PhD, but I do not recall much else, such as company, or education. I don't know much about what this system had to do other than ground to second stage ignition guidance tasks. Jim > > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Nov 14 01:22:50 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 01:22:50 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <9d12e55081022854e34bb94a5e4363e5@lunar-tokyo.net> That article is referring to the AGC, which is not the computer we are discussing. The AGC has already been solved. There are four independent flight computers involved in an Apollo mission. The first is the LVDC, the Launch Vehicle Digital Computer, which flew the Saturn booster. This is the one we are interested in. It was made by IBM. The second and third are the Command Module Computer (CMC) and the Lunar Guidance Computer (LGC). These were both Apollo Guidance Computers (AGCs) made by MIT. These are what most people are thinking of when they think "Apollo Space Computer". The last was a backup computer aboard the LM called the Abort Guidance System, or AGS. It was made by TRW. The software for the AGS, CMC, and LGC have already been recovered and emulators of those exist and work. The software for the LVDC however seems to have been destroyed or lost. It was in the hands of IBM when they were broken up and nobody seems to know what became of it. That is why this particular core stack is interesting, it may have a copy of the lost LVDC software. On Nov 11, 2008, at 8:11 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > It had both core and rope > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 11 November 2008 07:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? > > On 10 Nov 2008 at 22:37, dwight elvey wrote: > >> Reading shouldn't be too difficult. Outputs could be recorded by a >> digital scope. The rise times of the address and inhibit lines are >> mostly to be slow enough that it doesn't cause the sense amplifier to >> trip on the coupling in the selected address line. >> Other addresses are protected by the matching signal on the inhibit >> line. Any reasonably slow ramp would work since one is using a scope >> to record and not a sense amp. > > Putting to bed the idea of the "core rope" program store, the 1964 > document on the launch computer is pretty clear that this is ordinary > read-write core storing the program: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 > 63841.pdf > > In particular, item 2-37 begins "Reading a ferrite-core memory destroys > the information in the memory." It then goes on to describe the restore > part of a read operation. No mention of "core rope" is made. The > document, all 200-some pages contains a great deal of detail on the > computer, including memory operation and organization. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 14 01:55:22 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:55:22 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <9d12e55081022854e34bb94a5e4363e5@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local>, <9d12e55081022854e34bb94a5e4363e5@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <491CBE6A.27623.5586923@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2008 at 1:22, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > The first is the LVDC, the Launch Vehicle Digital Computer, which flew > the Saturn booster. This is the one we are interested in. It was made > by IBM. What I said before. The IBM docs for the LVDC are here and I would encourage anyone who wants to offer a suggestion to reading the core stack to read the document: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 63841.pdf Even if you're not interested in recovering the LVDC core, the document makes an extremely interesting read about the technology of the time. One aspect in particular was the ability of the multiply and divide instructions to run concurrently with other instructions. Another aspect is the triple-redundant-with-voting structre of the processor. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Nov 14 07:10:11 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 08:10:11 -0500 Subject: Source for 27C256's In-Reply-To: <1226503935.8794.3.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> References: <1226503935.8794.3.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Message-ID: <491D78B3.4070401@atarimuseum.com> Steve, I think I've got a significant stash of them, let me doublecheck today and let you know. Curt Steve Robertson wrote: > Yo, > > I need about 50 UV erasable 27c256 for a project. Anyone have a stash > they'd be willing to part with reasonably priced? > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Nov 14 08:14:23 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:14:23 -0000 Subject: [personal] Source for 27C256's References: <1226503935.8794.3.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Message-ID: <002201c94663$4b840660$961ca8c0@mss.local> Hi, If it helps I have 4 brand new ones here - http://www.soemtron.org/stockdisposalicslogic.html They are not mine but I'm hosting the pages and control their disposal, there could be others but i've not found them in the stores yet. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: [personal] Source for 27C256's > Yo, > > I need about 50 UV erasable 27c256 for a project. Anyone have a stash > they'd be willing to part with reasonably priced? > > -- > Steve Robertson > steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com > > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Nov 14 09:00:30 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:00:30 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <491D928E.5050006@hawkmountain.net> der Mouse wrote: > > I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus > slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two CPUs in > a single Mbus form factor. > It can do quad... Sun had the SM52X (2 SM51s on a almost double wide cpu card... you could the put two of them in. Downside was you lost 2 sbus slots. The Sun sold Hypersparc module HS12 was a dual 100mhz cpu (I believe it was normal width... so you didn't lose sbus slots to go quad). If you went with Ross Hypersparc modules there were various dual cpu on one module configurations.... I know there was 2 variants of dual 125mhz modules (256K, 512K, or 1M of cache). I know there was a dual 142mhz 1M cache module (which I believe was extra wide). Those are ones I have or have had. There are many more. A good reference is: http://mbus.sunhelp.org/modules/index.htm -- Curt > Sounds like a sweet 20, alright. Whoever ends up with it take good > care of it, 'k? > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 10:23:37 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:23:37 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <491DA609.3030903@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: > I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus > slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two CPUs in > a single Mbus form factor. Sun made SuperSPARC-based ones and Ross/Cypress made HyperSPARC-based ones. Peace... Sridhar From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Nov 14 12:11:07 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:11:07 +0000 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <86080B0C-6883-46B5-A41A-9E06BB7B26EC@microspot.co.uk> > From: Oliver Lehmann > >> Before doing this I would like to put these into modern machine >> readable form so they can be published on the web. > > Maybe the person(s) behind http://www.ict1301.co.uk/ have some > interest > in this too? That is the web site of my project and describes the computer I have kept. Two of us work on the project, Rod Brown being the other person, and he does the web design, but he has not enough web space for anywhere near the amount of data which needs to be published. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 14 12:24:22 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:24:22 -0800 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data Message-ID: <491DC256.1010407@bitsavers.org> > he has not enough web space for > anywhere near the amount of data which needs to be published. I'd be happy to include the data on bitsavers. ICT/ICL documents and software are quite rare in the US. From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Nov 14 12:32:01 2008 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:32:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e and terminals in West Sussex, UK In-Reply-To: <419832.30984.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <419832.30984.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1226687521.2616.177.camel@bingbong.tan.russellsharpe.com> Hi, I'm the new owner of the 2 PDP-11/Ms that Paul retrieved from the skip. The populated machine is in pretty good shape and seems to be complete. The chassis only machine should also be bought back to life as I've managed to locate most of the boards required to rebuild it (just need to find some memory) I'm going to be documenting the machines restoration on my blog which I've setup here: http://www.pdp8.co.uk/ Thanks, Toby On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 03:32 -0800, Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > I guess people have looked at the pdp-8/m-2 Chassis: > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/pdp/pdp8m-2/04112008359.jpg > > There are some interesting goodies as it's completely max'd out! > > It appears to have 3x8K memory (a stunning 24K!). > > M8320 = OmniBus Bus terminator loads. > G111 = 8K Memory. > M849 = Memory Shield. > M8357 = RX8E (8" Dual Floppy controller). > M8650 = Teletype control. > M847YA = Hardware Bootstrap Loader. > M8350 = Posibus interface (surprising). > M837 = Memory Extension / Timeshare. > M8300 = CPU Regs. > M8310 = CPU Regs Ctrl. > M8330 = CPU Timing. > > It was last tested (amazingly) as late as July 1990, a mere 18 years ago. > > Again, I'm wondering who took the pdp-8/m: Was it the Surrey Museum or Peter? > > Also Peter, you said it was a simple circuit, do you have the circuit diagrams and procedure for converting a normal PC-based 5.25" Floppy drive to work as an RX-50? I did use PUTR recently on a PC to transfer RT-11 to 5.25" disk so I could install it on my pdp-11/73 (before the PSU failed!); so I know they *can* be used in some sense. > > Also Johnny, are you actually offering a pdp-8/m or /f!!!!? > > -cheers from julz @P > > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 14 13:00:50 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:00:50 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: <491D928E.5050006@hawkmountain.net> References: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <491D928E.5050006@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2008, at 10:00 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus >> slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two >> CPUs in >> a single Mbus form factor. >> > It can do quad... Sun had the SM52X (2 SM51s on a almost > double wide cpu card... you could the put two of them in. > Downside was you lost 2 sbus slots. The Sun sold Hypersparc > module HS12 was a dual 100mhz cpu (I believe it was normal > width... so you didn't lose sbus slots to go quad). Just avoid the SM100 modules like the plague...they were slower than pissing tar. You could take an SS20 (or an SS10, or a 4/600MP) to four processors that way, but they were painful to use. They were sold by Sun but based on an early Ross chipset, though I don't recall which one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Nov 14 13:12:15 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:12:15 +0000 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Thanks for your thoughts, yes I think that could work, though a bit slow for 90,000 cards. As some of the cards are printed, might need to scan them twice, once with a black background and once with white. I might use that method for the 160 column cards. For the 80 column cards, I expect to soon have a working card reader. Now I can get to the logic properly it should not take long to find out why the 'zone' is being decoded incorrectly. The 'numeric' is working fine already so I can read cards with columns of just '0' to '9' on them. One day I should even be able to read pure binary cards through the check reading brushes of the online card punch, though for protection I might remove part of the punching mechanism to stop it making more holes by mistake. I have even been toying with the idea of re-building my spare punch mechanism, putting some TTL logic in it and connecting it directly to my Mac laptop through a serial to USB converter. Might be easier than getting my IBM keypunch working without any diagrams for the relay logic. However, the question I was asking was how to encode these special characters. I currently know of two alternatives. One is to put them in pure text files with a two character sequence for the special characters. ACONIT in France have used a character starting Hex F as a marker. The lower nibble holds four of the bits from the top 4 rows and the second character holds the bottom eight row bits. This means even fully laced cards can be represented. The other is to put them in UTF8 form which has characters with rings around the numbers 10 to 15. I think they probably have the fraction characters, pound sign etc as well. On 14 Nov, 2008, at 15:01, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:30:28 -0800 (PST) > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: Re: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <529044.39317.qm at web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Roger Holmes > wrote: > >> The punched cards include columns representing all the >> number 0 to 15 plus 1/4, 1/2, 3/4. I even have some 160 >> column cards, same as 80 column cards but with two round >> hole positions in each normal rectangular hole position. I >> can read the 80 column cards but not the 160 column ones. > > I had actually been thinking about this very problem the other day - > how to read in old punch cards without a functional punch card > reader. I was thinking that a modern automatic sheet feeding scanner > could be pressed into service here. Replace the white backing in the > scanner with black material to provide good contrast. Scan the > cards, preserving order, into a good machine readable format, > something easy to decode. Then, with some not-too-complicated > software, one could "read" the scanned image of the cards, producing > binary data. > > It would be a worthwile (pronounced "fun") hack, and while it > probably wouldn't be able to take the place of a good, high quality > card reader, it should substitute for an unusual or unavailable > reader. > > -Ian > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 14 13:22:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:22:55 -0800 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: References: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <491D5F8F.32289.7CDDDA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2008 at 19:12, Roger Holmes wrote: > Thanks for your thoughts, yes I think that could work, though a bit > slow for 90,000 cards. > As some of the cards are printed, might need to scan them twice, once > with a black background and once with white. How about a uniquely-colored background? A little image-twiddling could make any printing on the card invisible. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 14 11:53:08 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:53:08 -0800 Subject: [personal] Source for 27C256's In-Reply-To: <002201c94663$4b840660$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <1226503935.8794.3.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com>, <002201c94663$4b840660$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <491D4A84.21138.77BACFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2008 at 14:14, Mike Hatch wrote: > If it helps I have 4 brand new ones here - > http://www.soemtron.org/stockdisposalicslogic.html > They are not mine but I'm hosting the pages and control their disposal, > there could be others but i've not found them in the stores yet. What's a reasonable price for these? Furturlec (http://www.futurlec.com) has them for USD $1.80 each new (probably WingShing, but I haven't checked): http://www.futurlec.com/ICEPROM.shtml Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 14 14:48:17 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:48:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: <1611BBFCAEB54779A55FC076D720E978@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Nov 13, 8 10:06:59 pm Message-ID: > It wasn't ment for you in the first place ;-) Jos maybe.. Oh sure... > You just bought that beautiful HB-IB clock witch I was following until I > could free the money for it :-( You mean that little (and it is smaller than I expected) HP59309A that arrived here yersterday. You're right, it's beautiful. 4 boards of chips that I mostly understnad (no microprocessor or anything like that, there are 3 programemd ROMs on the HPIB interface) plugged into a backplane. One PCB, of course, is right at the front and carries the user setting swtiches and display. This is somewhat OT, but I think several people here have said clock. Does anyone have the _official_ HP stnadby battery box for it, and can tell me (a) how many D cells it takes and (b) if there's anything in it other than D cells. > Well I hope the nex one is mine.. Unless one turns up near here at a very silly BIN price, I am not going to bit on another one. Of course I am looking for other HP5930xA insturments at sensivle prices (not found any yet). > I have one working thinkjet the others are having bad cables too, the blody I have a fair number of Thinkjets (I think I have at least one of every model -- -A, -B, -C, -D , -C+ and -P). Some of them, alas, have flexiprint problmes. > ink of the cardridges is almost as bad as leaking batteries. > So I'm not going to canabalize that one for the integral. Sure. The reason for my comment is that Thinkjets are a lot more common that Integrals, and that all models of THinkjet use the same flexiprint. So if the new owner of your Integral wants to restore it, it's probably possible to get any model of Thinkjet with a good flexiprint, transplant the carriage (or just the flexiprint) into the Integral and then make up some kludge to connect it to the Logic B PCB. WHat I would probably do is desolder the flexiprint conenctor from the Logic B PCB and replace it with an SIL header plug (Molex KK range or similar). Then use normal ribbon cable to link the socket for that to the original Flexiprint conenctor, prprboably soldering the latter to a little bit of stripboard. I'd have to find some way to stop it shorting on the Logic B PCB, the back of the display module, or the scrrening plate over the Logic B PCB, but I am sure something could be worked out. > But if you got spare cables... Alas not. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 14 16:29:15 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:29:15 -0600 Subject: Another NASA recovery story Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> Another NASA recovery story: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss 1,500 Lunary Orbiter tapes, converting analog to digital, and "the time frame to complete the project is very short as there is only one person on Earth who has the expertise to work with the playback heads needed to process the original tapes. And at 68 years old, he wants to retire in just 14 months." - John From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Nov 14 16:42:35 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:42:35 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <491DFEDB.7040100@radiorobots.com> John Foust wrote: > Another NASA recovery story: > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss > > 1,500 Lunary Orbiter tapes, converting analog to digital, and > "the time frame to complete the project is very short as there > is only one person on Earth who has the expertise to work with > the playback heads needed to process the original tapes. > And at 68 years old, he wants to retire in just 14 months." > > - John > > Why exactly does the story state that "there is only one person on Earth who has the expertise ..."? Why exactly can this expertise not be passed on to others in 14 months? Perhaps someone has neglected to run a dimensional check again. Steve From john_finigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 16:47:35 2008 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:47:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking SS20 Message-ID: <293208.42306.qm@web36607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, I have one with a pair of SM52Xs somewhere, for quad SuperSparc at 50 MHz with 1 MB cache each. A couple of years ago I put NetBSD 2.0 on it. Compiling Apache, it was just a little bit faster than dual SM71. Of course, SMP was brand new in NetBSD 2.0 The bummer is that with the 50 MHz CPUs, you have to run 40 MHz bus, since the bus must always be lower frequency than the CPU. What I always wondered is, if Sun could run the SM41 at 40.3 MHz and use the 40 MHz bus, why did the SM51 not run at 50.5 and allow 50 MHz bus? I assume the obvious reason was "they tried and it didn't work." John der Mouse wrote: >> I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus >> slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two CPUs in >> a single Mbus form factor. Curt wrote: >It can do quad... Sun had the SM52X (2 SM51s on a almost >double wide cpu card... you could the put two of them in. >Downside was you lost 2 sbus slots. The Sun sold Hypersparc >module HS12 was a dual 100mhz cpu (I believe it was normal >width... so you didn't lose sbus slots to go quad). >If you went with Ross Hypersparc modules there were various >dual cpu on one module configurations.... I know there was >2 variants of dual 125mhz modules (256K, 512K, or 1M of cache). >I know there was a dual 142mhz 1M cache module (which I >believe was extra wide). Those are ones I have or have had. >There are many more. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 14 16:50:54 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:50:54 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > Another NASA recovery story: > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss > > 1,500 Lunary Orbiter tapes, converting analog to digital, and > "the time frame to complete the project is very short as there > is only one person on Earth who has the expertise to work with > the playback heads needed to process the original tapes. > And at 68 years old, he wants to retire in just 14 months." > > - John > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete flop. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 14 17:44:25 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:44:25 -0800 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <491DFEDB.7040100@radiorobots.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> <491DFEDB.7040100@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve stutman > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 2:43 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Another NASA recovery story > > John Foust wrote: > > Another NASA recovery story: > > > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss > > > > 1,500 Lunary Orbiter tapes, converting analog to digital, and > > "the time frame to complete the project is very short as there > > is only one person on Earth who has the expertise to work with > > the playback heads needed to process the original tapes. > > And at 68 years old, he wants to retire in just 14 months." > > > > - John > > > > > Why exactly does the story state that "there is only one person on > Earth > who has the expertise ..."? > > Why exactly can this expertise not be passed on to others in 14 months? > > Perhaps someone has neglected to run a dimensional check again. > I'm sure they believe writing the story line this way will sell more advertising. -- Ian From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 14 17:57:57 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:57:57 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> >>> Why exactly does the story state that "there is only one person on > Earth who has the expertise ..."? It's plausible that the NASA gear had something custom about it. >>> I'm sure they believe writing the story line this way will sell more advertising What a stupid thing to say. We're talking about a credible mainstream news organization, not a supermarket tabloid. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 14 18:05:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:05:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> References: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <20081114160356.D41070@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Why exactly does the story state that "there is only one person on > > Earth who has the expertise ..."? > > It's plausible that the NASA gear had something custom about it. > > >>> I'm sure they believe writing the story line this way will sell more > advertising > > What a stupid thing to say. We're talking about a credible mainstream news > organization, not a supermarket tabloid. Evan considers cnet.com to be credible? From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 14 18:08:18 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:08:18 -0800 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> References: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: There's a difference? You haven't been paying attention: a number of "credible mainstream news organizations" have been caught with their pants down. And to be fair, this doesn't descend to that level. It's just "light spin" to create some dramatic tension.... -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 3:58 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Another NASA recovery story > > >>> Why exactly does the story state that "there is only one person on > > Earth who has the expertise ..."? > > It's plausible that the NASA gear had something custom about it. > > >>> I'm sure they believe writing the story line this way will sell > more > advertising > > What a stupid thing to say. We're talking about a credible mainstream > news > organization, not a supermarket tabloid. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 14 18:26:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:26:09 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: References: <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <491E1721.9050706@jetnet.ab.ca> Ian King wrote: > There's a difference? You haven't been paying attention: a number of "credible mainstream news organizations" have been caught with their pants down. And to be fair, this doesn't descend to that level. It's just "light spin" to create some dramatic tension.... -- Ian > Credible here means ... Elvis or Aliens are *Not* on the front page... I guess. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Nov 14 18:33:06 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:33:06 -0600 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <491BC514.8020007@jwsss.com> References: <200811111800.mABI0PHX074921@dewey.classiccmp.org> <491B339C.7040902@brouhaha.com> <491BC514.8020007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <12581a967635202c7dbc660f5b518b4d@lunar-tokyo.net> Now this is useful. This is the first time we've ever had a name associated with this. From ignition to shortly after S2 ignition the software flew in "Pre-IGM" mode, which we have already figured out. Enough high-level pre-IGM documentation was recovered to reconstruct it. The part after was called (wait for it...) "IGM", or Iterative Guidance Mode. The IGM is significantly more complex. I have some documentation on it but I haven't managed to reconstruct a working version, and I suspect my documentation may be incorrect because it was issued some years before the actual launches took place. The Pre-IGM simply flew a timed pitch profile and the IGM did the hard work. On Nov 13, 2008, at 12:11 AM, jim s wrote: > I had experience with one of the programmers for the instrumentation > unit for the S5 stage which was in the ring between the first and > second stages, I think. > > I was an expert witness in a lawsuit having nothing at all to do with > this, but he was the expert called for the other party. > > To make a long story short, expert witness' credentials frequently > turn out to be who has the best credentials. > > I talked to him before we went in to a deposition, and I granted him > that point before we even started. > > I feel privileged to have met him, and wish we could have visited more > on the subject rather than what we were paid to do. Sadly I was not > even supposed to get into anything but luckily this was told to us > after we had chatted. > > I think his name was Tom Follett, and I do not recall ever finding > anything about him. I believe that he had a PhD, but I do not recall > much else, such as company, or education. > > I don't know much about what this system had to do other than ground > to second stage ignition guidance tasks. > > Jim >> >> From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 19:13:05 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:13:05 -0500 Subject: N8VEM Backplane - a set on Flickr Message-ID: Hi! I just noticed this excellent photo set on Flickr (Thanks Twylo!) and thought some of the people on CCTALK might be interested. http://flickr.com/photos/twylo/sets/72157608408069347/ Thanks! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Nov 14 20:05:20 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:05:20 -0500 Subject: seeking SS20 In-Reply-To: References: <4919cc08.3be.ad0.22395@jdfogg.com> <200811112029.PAA04601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <491D928E.5050006@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <491E2E60.9080404@hawkmountain.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 14, 2008, at 10:00 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> I think the 20 can actually do quad-CPU; while it has only two Mbus >>> slots, I seem to recall that someone made Mbus modules with two CPUs in >>> a single Mbus form factor. >>> >> It can do quad... Sun had the SM52X (2 SM51s on a almost >> double wide cpu card... you could the put two of them in. >> Downside was you lost 2 sbus slots. The Sun sold Hypersparc >> module HS12 was a dual 100mhz cpu (I believe it was normal >> width... so you didn't lose sbus slots to go quad). > > Just avoid the SM100 modules like the plague...they were slower than > pissing tar. You could take an SS20 (or an SS10, or a 4/600MP) to > four processors that way, but they were painful to use. They were > sold by Sun but based on an early Ross chipset, though I don't recall > which one. Myself and a coworker (@ Sun) took a SS10 that had dual SM41s, and tried the dual SM100 modules for 4 processors !!!.... we quickly put the dual SM41s back in.... two SM41s were better than the 4 cpus the dual SM100 mbus modules gave ! We also tried 16MB 30 pin simms in a sparcstation 2.... err... that didn't go well... bye bye SS2 mainboard ! -- Curt > > -Dave > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 14 21:31:05 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:31:05 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local>, <9d12e55081022854e34bb94a5e4363e5@lunar-tokyo.net> <491CBE6A.27623.5586923@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <491E4279.4E310CE7@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I said before. The IBM docs for the LVDC are here and I would > encourage anyone who wants to offer a suggestion to reading the core > stack to read the document: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730063841_19730 > 63841.pdf > > Even if you're not interested in recovering the LVDC core, the > document makes an extremely interesting read about the technology of > the time. One aspect in particular was the ability of the multiply > and divide instructions to run concurrently with other instructions. > > Another aspect is the triple-redundant-with-voting structre of the > processor. Fun read, presents a good primer on basic core memory principles too. I only wish it had gone into more detail about the physical implementation such as the ICs used, as it would be interesting to compare with the AGC. The only mention I found suggests some DTL-class series. That and the power supply voltages suggest it might be the TI Minuteman (SN3xx) series. Perhaps it's in Vol II (?) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 14 22:29:51 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:29:51 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:57:57 -0500. <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0@evan> Message-ID: In article <006d01c946b4$d2c986d0$0201a8c0 at evan>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > We're talking about a credible mainstream news > organization, not a supermarket tabloid. You mean, there's a difference? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Nov 14 22:35:05 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:35:05 -0800 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> References: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> Message-ID: <491E5179.4040102@crash.com> Steven M Jones wrote: > I just received what I believe is an HP 9000/380 (thanks Stan!), details > below. I've since powered up the machine and it appears to be working just fine. I believe I skipped over that in responding to a thread about LCD monitors and output from late 80's and early 90's workstation framebuffers, but the 380 displays just fine on a 20" Dell LCD monitor using a HD15 to 3-BNC cable off of eBay. The current color framebuffer offers 6 bit planes. I'm assuming that were I to load NetBSD on it, X would immediately fall over. My experience a few years ago was that dependencies on greater than 8-bit color had crept into much of the standard distributions... I haven't secured a disk for it yet, but expect to use a bog standard SCSI drive. I'd love to find a matching enclosure, but no clue as to availability. Something that looks similar to the following would do nicely: http://60.43.170.188/~handf/picture/hp/hp3801.jpg Here's the boot screen, just for kicks: Copyright 1990, Hewlett-Packard Company. All Rights Reserved. BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90 Bit Mapped Video MC68040 Processor Configuration EEPROM HP-HIL.Keyboard HP-IB DMA-C0 RAM 8388292 Bytes HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 16 HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08:00:09:14:7A:8A HP PARALLEL at 23 System Search Mode RESET To Restart From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Nov 14 22:38:41 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:38:41 -0800 Subject: New HP-HIL keyboards In-Reply-To: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> References: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> Message-ID: <491E5251.9000309@crash.com> I wrote a few weeks back about an HP 9000/380... The keyboard I'd found separately at Weirdstuff Warehouse works fine, and appears to be period-correct (46021A, serial #3150S50181). However the key caps are surprisingly loose -- if you tap firmly on the surrounding bezel you can watch the keycaps bounce and rotate on top of their mechanisms. I found a seller on eBay with new-in-box 46021C HP-HIL keyboards. The style of all keycaps on the C model are the same as the alphabetic keys of its A predecessor -- the A's numeric keypad has a very distinctive undercut sculpting. Overall weight of the two units is similar, the C being a bit smaller and lighter. The new keyboards are $9.99 plus S&H ($12.68 for me in California), eBay auction #300267813052. There are currently 5 left. I have no connection with the seller other than as a satisfied customer. Just thought others might be interested in NIB HIL keyboards. --S. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 14 22:51:15 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:51:15 GMT Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits Message-ID: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Steve: Cool; so now I know someone besides myself that has one of these beasties. So, what was the model of that Dell monitor you're using? Jeff -- Steven M Jones wrote: Steven M Jones wrote: > I just received what I believe is an HP 9000/380 (thanks Stan!), details > below. I've since powered up the machine and it appears to be working just fine. I believe I skipped over that in responding to a thread about LCD monitors and output from late 80's and early 90's workstation framebuffers, but the 380 displays just fine on a 20" Dell LCD monitor using a HD15 to 3-BNC cable off of eBay. The current color framebuffer offers 6 bit planes. I'm assuming that were I to load NetBSD on it, X would immediately fall over. My experience a few years ago was that dependencies on greater than 8-bit color had crept into much of the standard distributions... I haven't secured a disk for it yet, but expect to use a bog standard SCSI drive. I'd love to find a matching enclosure, but no clue as to availability. Something that looks similar to the following would do nicely: http://60.43.170.188/~handf/picture/hp/hp3801.jpg Here's the boot screen, just for kicks: Copyright 1990, Hewlett-Packard Company. All Rights Reserved. BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90 Bit Mapped Video MC68040 Processor Configuration EEPROM HP-HIL.Keyboard HP-IB DMA-C0 RAM 8388292 Bytes HP98644 (RS-232) at 9 HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 16 HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08:00:09:14:7A:8A HP PARALLEL at 23 System Search Mode RESET To Restart ____________________________________________________________ Click to find local singles for dating, romance and fun http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw23XmTUF9ObWdHACZNKsNEpDiFNdO5V4W6hXVLTArmi5sACS/ From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Nov 14 23:09:17 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:09:17 -0800 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <491E597D.8010907@crash.com> jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > > So, what was the model of that Dell monitor you're > using? I've been using a Dell 2001FP so far. I'd better make clear that without a disk, I've only been bringing it up in the PROM monitor. The story might be radically different if I could actually fire up a windowing environment. Hope that omission hasn't caused any problems. --S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 15 00:57:53 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:57:53 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9B549499-C898-4A65-B431-3E14CB8EF9E4@neurotica.com> On Nov 14, 2008, at 5:50 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Another NASA recovery story: >> >> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss >> >> 1,500 Lunary Orbiter tapes, converting analog to digital, and "the >> time frame to complete the project is very short as there is only >> one person on Earth who has the expertise to work with the >> playback heads needed to process the original tapes. And at 68 >> years old, he wants to retire in just 14 months." >> > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. > It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete > flop. No! It hasn't been a flop! It has succeeded in keeping thousands of bureaucrats employed, and dozens of "beltway bandit" contractors raking in the bucks while continuing to launch ancient-technology spacecraft into orbit over and over again. Speaking of which, I watched Endeavour's launch from my neighborhood tonight. I've seen many shuttle launches, but this one was the most spectacular. Very impressive indeed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jrowland at sterlingpipeandtube.com Fri Nov 14 18:09:40 2008 From: jrowland at sterlingpipeandtube.com (Jim Rowland) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:09:40 -0500 Subject: Trying again, wanted: volker-craig terminals Message-ID: <30F95D27C9EA4BFBB806DC3CF3B9C020@JimR> Hi, I came across your post while looking for information for a VC4404 that came to us. If you are still looking for one, drop me an e-mail. Regards, Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 14 23:25:02 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:25:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <491E5179.4040102@crash.com> References: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> <491E5179.4040102@crash.com> Message-ID: <200811150540.AAA23120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The current color framebuffer offers 6 bit planes. I'm assuming that > were I to load NetBSD on it, X would immediately fall over. My > experience a few years ago was that dependencies on greater than > 8-bit color had crept into much of the standard distributions... Ohly if you go for colour-hungry chrome-filled bloatware like "desktop environments". X is not a window system; X is a framework for building window systems. Run just a twm and a few xterms and you can do fine with colour resources as simple as even just 1bpp monochrome. However, it has been my experience that it takes fairly carefully written clients to deal well with unusual environments, and 6bpp colour is unusual. (When I ported X to the NexT 2bpp greyscale hardware, I discovered some stuff didn't like 4-entry StaticGray....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Nov 15 01:46:56 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:46:56 GMT Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits Message-ID: <20081114.234656.1635.0@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> -- Steven M Jones wrote: >I've been using a Dell 2001FP so far. > >I'd better make clear that without a disk, I've only been bringing >it up >in the PROM monitor. The story might be radically different if I >could >actually fire up a windowing environment. > >Hope that omission hasn't caused any problems. Oh, no, I was just curious, because finding a monitor that will do sync-on-green seems to be something of a hit-and-miss proposition. ____________________________________________________________ Access from anywhere - Satellite Internet. Click here http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2XGao1VzpB65liFC56puaWgvgV4XlyLefQGwgcwcV1hioBA/ From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Nov 15 02:12:03 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:12:03 -0800 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <200811150540.AAA23120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48FC53F4.6000504@crash.com> <491E5179.4040102@crash.com> <200811150540.AAA23120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <491E8453.7030005@crash.com> der Mouse wrote: > > Ohly if you go for colour-hungry chrome-filled bloatware like "desktop > environments". Heh. Well from what I can recall it involved bringing up an older workstation and trying to display an xterm from a then-current PC running either Solaris x86 or Linux, with a "desktop environment" installed and running on said PC. It looked like the clients on the newer box wanted specific visuals that this server wasn't able to provide, hence my comments about current distributions. But hey, if I can't reproduce it or describe it in enough detail that somebody else could, it never officially happened... > X is not a window system; X is a framework for building > window systems. Run just a twm and a few xterms and you can do fine > with colour resources as simple as even just 1bpp monochrome. I certainly had no problem using X with those and other clients on 1bpp, 4bpp, and 8bpp VAXstations back in the late 80s and early to mid 90s. Not to mention Sun-3's and -4's, DECstations, Sony NEWS, early AViiONs, and other gear. This was using X Consortium releases whenever possible; for example, I could never find a server other than the one DG supplied for the AViiONs. Re-reading my note, I see that I have "spoken" imprecisely. I didn't mean to imply that X itself can't handle low-bpp displays due to some intrinsic limitation, especially given I first encountered X on monochrome VAXstation 2000s! Rather it appeared to be a problem with the common clients (or perhaps libraries) in the same way that different apps over the years showed up that were coded to only deal with certain color-depth visuals and failed badly when they couldn't get them. > However, it has been my experience that it takes fairly carefully > written clients to deal well with unusual environments, and 6bpp colour > is unusual. (When I ported X to the NexT 2bpp greyscale hardware, I > discovered some stuff didn't like 4-entry StaticGray....) I have next to no information on the workings of the 98549A framebuffer. For all I know it uses two of those planes for overlay and something else and only provides 4bpp. Perhaps eventually I'll find out... --S. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Nov 15 02:32:24 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 09:32:24 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491E8918.7060302@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> It wasn't ment for you in the first place ;-) Jos maybe.. > > Oh sure... > If 'Jos' refers to me, then, alas : I already have an Integral, fully functional ( inclusive printer, repaired with a thinkjet cable ) Inclusive of manual, carrying case, extra memory, RS232 board. I just need to find a way to recover the MFM disk in the accompaning HP9133D for more pressing needs, which is the system disk for a Lilith. I am in fact looking to reducd my herd : altough by classiccmp standards I have few machines (around 30), I just lack the time for them. And it is more rewarding to concentrate on very few machines, but then do it properly. Among the stuff to go : VT340 ( free ). Amigo screen 1084 (free). IBM5155, full loaded, with HD. The HP Integral. HP9826 ( lack of useful software ). HP85 ( just got it, but already tired of it ). Intel Intellec dual 8" floppy ( would love the Intellec itself, small chance..). A VT103 / ST412 combo running RT11 ( homemade version, previous owner hacked an 11/23 into a VT100 ). a SGI O2 & SW1600 ( nice machine, if slow ). All located in Switzerland Jos Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 15 03:40:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:40:38 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? In-Reply-To: <491E4279.4E310CE7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA2925EA@ediserver.EDICONS.local>, <491E4279.4E310CE7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <491E2896.12304.9658C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Nov 2008 at 19:31, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I only wish it had gone into more detail about the physical implementation such > as the ICs used, as it would be interesting to compare with the AGC. The only > mention I found suggests some DTL-class series. That and the power supply > voltages suggest it might be the TI Minuteman (SN3xx) series. > Perhaps it's in Vol II (?) Here's volume II (Maintenance): http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19730063842 Lots and lots of logic diagrams and a few schematics of the memory assembly (mostly diode matrices), but no detail on the modules themselves. (Tony would love the servicing instructions: "Replace module with IBM Part No. XXXX".) I wonder if a search of the USPTO library might turn up something. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Nov 15 05:25:41 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:25:41 +0000 Subject: Saving 1962(year) mainframe data In-Reply-To: <86080B0C-6883-46B5-A41A-9E06BB7B26EC@microspot.co.uk> References: <200811141501.mAEF0gLe008893@dewey.classiccmp.org> <86080B0C-6883-46B5-A41A-9E06BB7B26EC@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <491EB1B5.5030503@gjcp.net> Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Oliver Lehmann >> >>> Before doing this I would like to put these into modern machine >>> readable form so they can be published on the web. >> >> Maybe the person(s) behind http://www.ict1301.co.uk/ have some interest >> in this too? > > That is the web site of my project and describes the computer I have > kept. Two of us work on the project, Rod Brown being the other person, > and he does the web design, but he has not enough web space for anywhere > near the amount of data which needs to be published. > Whatever you do, don't scan the docs in at something like 48000dpi 1-bit. That just gives horrible unreadable *huge* files to work with, that look awful and can't reliably be OCRed or viewed on screen. Gordon From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Nov 15 06:28:24 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:28:24 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <491EC068.4080804@comcast.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > John Foust wrote: >> Another NASA recovery story: >> >> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss >> > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. > It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete > flop This is such a dumbass thing to say. I was glad to work on several Nasa contracts during my time. If you don't recognize any of the achievements made during the mounds of bureaucratic loopholes they had to jump through, your're just friggin blind. I like to see any private company put up with the same crap. But you never did back then because they never put their money where there mouth is--but they were sure damn happy to get any of the Nasa contracts. =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Nov 15 06:31:52 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:31:52 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491EC138.7080503@comcast.net> The article is also missing half of the story Nancy Evans, a former NASA planetary photo chief "They obtained the tape drives as government surplus hardware in an attempt to raise private funds for digitizing the lunar images." And here is Dennis posting about needing help on the Ampex FR-900's, soooo who's really the "expert" then ? http://tinyurl.com/6cnczc* *=Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 15 07:23:51 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:23:51 +0100 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens jeff.kaneko at juno.com Verzonden: zaterdag 15 november 2008 5:51 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits Steve: Cool; so now I know someone besides myself that has one of these beasties. So, what was the model of that Dell monitor you're using? I got a view series 300 machines with the bulky monitors and some HP-IB SS/CS-80 hardware. Got a 345 running on hp-ux 9.10 the highest version of ux for the 300/400 series. My 360 runs Workstation Basic (RMB) 6.4 thanks to Jim G. I build a Sync on Green separator so I can use a standaard multi-sync on the 300's -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 15 07:25:38 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:25:38 +0100 Subject: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits In-Reply-To: <491E597D.8010907@crash.com> References: <20081114.205115.8910.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com> <491E597D.8010907@crash.com> Message-ID: <62658626788842359AAB6168655A31DA@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Steven M Jones Verzonden: zaterdag 15 november 2008 6:09 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Wanted: some HP 9000/3xx bits jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > > So, what was the model of that Dell monitor you're using? I've been using a Dell 2001FP so far. I'd better make clear that without a disk, I've only been bringing it up in the PROM monitor. The story might be radically different if I could actually fire up a windowing environment. Hope that omission hasn't caused any problems. --S. HP-UX 9.10 with VUE (HP X-client) the trick are the code-words or lack of them.. :-( -Rik From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Nov 15 09:41:05 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:41:05 -0500 Subject: Last chance before dumpster Message-ID: <491EED91.4080707@hawkmountain.net> The following items are free if you are local, or $5 + actual ship if you are not local. This stuff will be going in the dumpster by Monday AM if unclaimed. LN03 font cartridges LN03 Programmers Reference Manual LN03X-A0 Maintenance Kits LN03X-TA Toner Kits Digital AlphaPC64 Mainboard new in box with manual Digital PMAG-A Turbochannel monochrome video card Sun SLC mainboards Sun ELC mainboards HP 92285A Toner carts (LaserJet (inc. Plus and 500), Apple LaserWriter) Tektronix PhaserShare Ethernet Card for Phaser 350 -- Curt From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 15 12:04:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 11:04:37 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <491EC068.4080804@comcast.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> <491EC068.4080804@comcast.net> Message-ID: <491F0F35.6010805@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Roganti wrote: > > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> John Foust wrote: >>> Another NASA recovery story: >>> >>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10097025-52.html?part=rss >>> >> And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. >> It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete >> flop > > This is such a dumbass thing to say. I was glad to work on several > Nasa contracts during my time. If you don't recognize any of the > achievements made during the mounds of bureaucratic loopholes they had > to jump through, your're just friggin blind. I like to see any private > company put up with the same crap. But you never did back then because > they never put their money where there mouth is--but they were sure > damn happy to get any of the Nasa contracts. > > =Dan > > [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > > I said after. 1975 is a good date when they screwed them selves up with the shuttle. They have never recovered since then. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 15 14:10:30 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 12:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <9B549499-C898-4A65-B431-3E14CB8EF9E4@neurotica.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20081114161832.06ce79e0@mail.threedee.com> <491E00CE.4090000@jetnet.ab.ca> <9B549499-C898-4A65-B431-3E14CB8EF9E4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20081115120306.R89837@shell.lmi.net> > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. > It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete > flop. Koltanofski (sp?) was one of the all time greatest chess players. ~50 years ago, I saw him playing about a dozen simultaneous blindfold games. He had a neighbor who used to come by and they would play a few games every day. Over time, they played many hundreds of games, but the neighbor never won. Finally, one day, he won a game. But then he disappeared and wasn't seen for months. When he eventually showed up, and was asked what happened, he replied, "Well, once you've beaten the great Koltanofski at chess, why bother to play anymore?" Alas, once NASA reached their well defined goal, they couldn't see a reason to play anymore. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Sat Nov 15 14:25:00 2008 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:25:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Another NASA recovery story Message-ID: <20081115202500.48AF03800072F@portal.seefried.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. Hubble. Galileo. Cassini. Chandra. Deep Impact. Swift. MRO. Spirit. Opportunity. Pheonix. Viking. Messenger. Lunar Prospector. NEAR. Spitzer. ISS. Ulysses. Voyager. Terra. > > It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete > > flop Obviously. KJ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 15 14:30:47 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:30:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: <491E8918.7060302@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Nov 15, 8 09:32:24 am Message-ID: > Among the stuff to go : [...] > HP9826 ( lack of useful software ). You can get HP BASIC (which is quite a nice version) and Pascal (looks to be UCSD-based) from the Australian museum. I don't know what boot ROM you have. If it's 2.0, then it won't boot from external drives, but only from the internal 5.25" one. This could be a problem in getting software. Unfortunately the 3.0 boot ROM is a larger device and can't (easily) be used on the early version of CPU board. > HP85 ( just got it, but already tired of it ). Now that I can understand :-). I've never found the HP 80 series of desktops to be particularly interesting. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 15 14:53:46 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:53:46 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <491E8918.7060302@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel"at Nov 15, 8 09:32:24 am Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zaterdag 15 november 2008 21:31 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay > Among the stuff to go : [...] > HP9826 ( lack of useful software ). You can get HP BASIC (which is quite a nice version) and Pascal (looks to be UCSD-based) from the Australian museum. I don't know what boot ROM you have. If it's 2.0, then it won't boot from external drives, but only from the internal 5.25" one. This could be a problem in getting software. Unfortunately the 3.0 boot ROM is a larger device and can't (easily) be used on the early version of CPU board. > HP85 ( just got it, but already tired of it ). Now that I can understand :-). I've never found the HP 80 series of desktops to be particularly interesting. -tony > HP85 But it is very easy to use as instrument controller, or CS/SS80 exerciser.. If you got a 9121 as external drive, tapes are not a real option. Small OT question do you know how the wires on the HP-65 cardreader head are soldered (not the ones on the reader pcb) -Rik From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 16:00:14 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:00:14 -0500 Subject: Gould Concepts Message-ID: There are apparently some ex-Sikorsky Gould Concept superminis as a recycler in the Northeast available. The total weight of the few (three?) systems could be a ton and a half. Is there any interest? RCS/RI is going to pull the VAX 11/785 out of the pile. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 15 16:51:33 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:51:33 -0500 Subject: vintage ads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811151751.33986.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 November 2008 14:45, Richard wrote: > One of those ads shows a pair of hands holding a disk, no sleeve. I remember a lot of them like that. And a lot of uisers that'd never bother with them, all efforts toward education to the contrary, until they lost some data. LOTS of ads like that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 15 17:04:57 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:04:57 -0500 Subject: Photos of the N8VEM ECB Bus Monitor Message-ID: Hi All, Attached is a link to some photos of the N8VEM ECB bus monitor I just built. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/msg/2fe8df76d05be1d5?hl=en The design is pretty general as a Z80 bus monitor and the original C'T Projekt article mentions you can build an adapter to convert the ECB interface directly into a Z80 40 pin DIP socket. Although I haven't made the adapter socket myself, it makes perfect sense to me since the ECB bus is essentially just buffered Z80 bus signals and the bus monitor should not notice the difference. If you have any questions, just let me know. I have several of the PCBs left if you'd like to build your own ECB bus monitor. The parts are fairly inexpensive items and the PCB is only $20 plus shipping. Clive and Rolf posted a bunch of videos of the ECB bus monitor in action so you can see those to if you'd like. They are on the N8VEM website and on Rolf's ECB pages. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 15 17:01:11 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:01:11 -0500 Subject: Quickdisks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811151801.11855.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 November 2008 01:32, William Donzelli wrote: > What is the availability of 2.8 inch "Quickdisk" drives and disks? I believe I have one of those drives kicking around. No disks for it, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Nov 15 17:20:07 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:20:07 -0600 Subject: Gould Concepts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <491F5927.5060103@ubanproductions.com> Hi Will, I worked at Gould back in the mid 80s. Can you please tell me what the model numbers are or possibly take some pictures? Also, which state does "the Northeast" apply to? --tnx --tom William Donzelli wrote: > There are apparently some ex-Sikorsky Gould Concept superminis as a > recycler in the Northeast available. The total weight of the few > (three?) systems could be a ton and a half. Is there any interest? > > RCS/RI is going to pull the VAX 11/785 out of the pile. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 17:29:45 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:29:45 -0500 Subject: Gould Concepts In-Reply-To: <491F5927.5060103@ubanproductions.com> References: <491F5927.5060103@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: > I worked at Gould back in the mid 80s. Can you please tell me what > the model numbers are or possibly take some pictures? Also, which > state does "the Northeast" apply to? Probably CT. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Nov 15 18:02:23 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:02:23 -0500 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200811151902.23968.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 11 November 2008 16:35, Ian King wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 1:10 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? > > > > On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > I've always preferred dip switches over jumpers. > > > > Solder pads don't get knocked off, nor bumped into different positions > > ...or wear out. Not too long ago, I found that the DIP switch on my > DSD-440 was just plain worn out. - Ian OTOH, I can still recall one machine (that I sold!) back when that acted up, and after a bit of troubleshooting I found _a bad jumper_ in there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 15 19:41:24 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:41:24 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <20081115202500.48AF03800072F@portal.seefried.com> References: <20081115202500.48AF03800072F@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: <491F7A44.1070600@jetnet.ab.ca> Ken Seefried wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >>> And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. >>> > > Hubble. Galileo. Cassini. Chandra. Deep Impact. > Swift. MRO. Spirit. Opportunity. Pheonix. Viking. > Messenger. Lunar Prospector. NEAR. Spitzer. ISS. > Ulysses. Voyager. Terra. > > > >>> It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete >>> flop >>> > > Obviously. > > KJ > > Notice all that the payloads have all been about the same mass and same solid cmos techology ... From wpileggi at juno.com Sun Nov 16 01:54:36 2008 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:54:36 GMT Subject: Offer: VGA Video card "collection" Message-ID: <20081116.025436.9991.3@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> It's the end of my fall clean-up, and I've decided to discontinue "collecting" VGA video cards any more; though the proper term might be "accumulate"... I did find it fascinating to note these were state-of-the-art in their (brief) day, we spent upwards of $300-400 on some of these and they are now boards I pull to scrap... Roughly 1990-1999, ISA, PCI and AGP. Been doing this for the last 10 years or so. I have a list of brands and models, please email me off-list request a copy. Anybody else 'collecting' VGA cards? I don't have a price, is there a market? I also have a list of Creative Labs Sound Blaster cards...Bill KA3AIS ____________________________________________________________ Planning for retirement? Click for free information on 401(k) plans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbt6R7yhcSssH7h1Jn3S5ZjTzdj3ItAK2Zgxcd2VspzbRbiou/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Nov 16 07:05:11 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:05:11 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 - Tape Drive model? Message-ID: <20081116140511.f3a70f12.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, does someone know which tape drive model was used in a Zilog System 8000? Bade on the Hardware Ref. Manual some characteristics: Storage Capacity (Unformatted) 17.2 Mbytes max. Read/Write speed 30 inches per second Rewrind/Search speed 90 inches per second Tracks 4 Recording density 6400 BPI Data Transfer Rate 192,00 Bits/sec Error Rates <1 Error in 10^8 Bits >From the Connector point of views it looks like there are 25 different signals (no idea how much pins): SLD, RDY, WND, FLG, LPS, FUP, BSY, EWS, RWD, REV, FWD, HSP, WEN, SL1, SL2, SL4, SLG, RNZ, RDS, DAD, WDE, WNZ, TR2, WDS, TR1 Does this sound familiar to someone? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Nov 16 08:07:21 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:07:21 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 - Tape Drive model? In-Reply-To: <20081116140511.f3a70f12.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20081116140511.f3a70f12.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081116150721.521fd098.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Does this sound familiar to someone? A (bad) picture can be found here: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6032 -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Nov 16 08:34:31 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:34:31 -0500 Subject: Offer: VGA Video card "collection" In-Reply-To: <20081116.025436.9991.3@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081116.025436.9991.3@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <200811160934.31194.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 16 November 2008 02:54, Bill Pileggi wrote: > It's the end of my fall clean-up, and I've decided to discontinue > "collecting" VGA video cards any more; though the proper term might be > "accumulate"... I did find it fascinating to note these were > state-of-the-art in their (brief) day, we spent upwards of $300-400 on some > of these and they are now boards I pull to scrap... Roughly 1990-1999, ISA, > PCI and AGP. > > Been doing this for the last 10 years or so. I have a list of brands and > models, please email me off-list request a copy. Anybody else 'collecting' > VGA cards? I don't have a price, is there a market? > > I also have a list of Creative Labs Sound Blaster cards...Bill KA3AIS I'd be interested in your lists... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 16 09:52:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:52:09 -0800 Subject: Who wants to help read a Saturn V core stack? Message-ID: <492041A9.8010708@bitsavers.org> A summary of what the LVDC program does can be found here http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790073644_1979073644.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 16 10:03:05 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:03:05 -0800 Subject: Zilog System 8000 - Tape Drive model? Message-ID: <49204439.4050608@bitsavers.org> probably DEI http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf From wpileggi at juno.com Sun Nov 16 01:58:36 2008 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:58:36 GMT Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" Message-ID: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> It's the end of my fall clean-up, and I've decided to discontinue "collecting" Creative Labs Sound Blaster Cards any more; though the proper term might be "accumulate"... Roughly 1991-1997, ISA. [I have a bunch of PCI cards if you need them...] Been doing this for the last 10 years or so. I have a list of models and part numbers, please email me off-list request a copy. Anybody else 'collecting' Sound cards? I don't have a price, is there a market? I also have a list of VGA Video Cards/ISA/PCI/AGP...Bill KA3AIS ____________________________________________________________ Planning for retirement? Click for free information on 401(k) plans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/PnY6rbt6R8Bo4vP30oTPJzrI7KVFmcjNvvzHiOAP3cqjC5NXUrDLA/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Nov 16 10:49:11 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:49:11 +0100 Subject: Zilog System 8000 - Tape Drive model? In-Reply-To: <49204439.4050608@bitsavers.org> References: <49204439.4050608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20081116174911.180e8a26.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Al Kossow wrote: > probably DEI > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf Hm but on page 44 it looks a bit different then in the S8000 hardware ref manual? http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6032 maybe it is another model from DEI? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 16 10:56:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:56:43 -0500 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <200811151902.23968.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> <200811151902.23968.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > OTOH, I can still recall one machine (that I sold!) back when that > acted up, > and after a bit of troubleshooting I found _a bad jumper_ in there... Ugh! I've had that happen a couple of times. Another "fun" one, which was easier to spot, was a jumper that had no little metal clip inside. It felt secure (which was odd since it's usually the little metal clip that gives it some friction on the pins) but upon turning it over, nothing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 16 11:55:05 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:55:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Nov 15, 8 09:53:46 pm Message-ID: > > HP85 ( just got it, but already tired of it ). > > Now that I can understand :-). I've never found the HP 80 series of desktops > to be particularly interesting. > > -tony > > > HP85 > > But it is very easy to use as instrument controller, or CS/SS80 exerciser.. Sue, but I believe CS/80 exerciser software is available for the HP9000/200 machines (which includes the 9826), and that it has much the same functionality as the HP85 version. The HP9000/200 machines have (to me) many advantages over the HP85 series, including an easier-to-use system bus (the HP85 bus is just strange, the HP9000/200 bus is the 68000 bus with a few more signals), easier to repair (about the only stnadard chips in an HP85 are the DRAMs, the 9000/200 machines are almost all standard, with a few PALs and ROMs) and a nicer selection of I/O cards. > If you got a 9121 as external drive, tapes are not a real option. > > Small OT question do you know how the wires on the HP-65 cardreader head are > soldered (not the ones on the reader pcb) I am not sure what you are asking. I have (unofficial) schematics of the HP65, along with almost all other (repairable) HP handhelds. The card reader had has 5 wires which are soldered to the card reader PCB, but you say it's not that end you're interested in. Every head I've seen has been potted in epoxy, so you can't see how the wires are connected at that end, or indeed resolder them. What are you trying to do? I might well be able to help. Incidentally, why is this OT? The HP65 is certainly a classic (pun intended). It's also, IMHO, a computer (the internal architecture is that of procrssor + RAM + ROM (albeit the ROM and RAM are on different (serial) buses; it is user programmable). I can't think of a sensible definition of computer which includes things like the KIM-1 and excludes the HP65. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Nov 16 14:08:36 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:08:36 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Nov15, 8 09:53:46 pm Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 16 november 2008 18:55 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay > > HP85 ( just got it, but already tired of it ). > > Now that I can understand :-). I've never found the HP 80 series of > desktops to be particularly interesting. > > -tony > > > HP85 > > But it is very easy to use as instrument controller, or CS/SS80 exerciser.. Sue, but I believe CS/80 exerciser software is available for the HP9000/200 machines (which includes the 9826), and that it has much the same functionality as the HP85 version. The HP9000/200 machines have (to me) many advantages over the HP85 series, including an easier-to-use system bus (the HP85 bus is just strange, the HP9000/200 bus is the 68000 bus with a few more signals), easier to repair (about the only stnadard chips in an HP85 are the DRAMs, the 9000/200 machines are almost all standard, with a few PALs and ROMs) and a nicer selection of I/O cards. > If you got a 9121 as external drive, tapes are not a real option. > > Small OT question do you know how the wires on the HP-65 cardreader > head are soldered (not the ones on the reader pcb) I am not sure what you are asking. I have (unofficial) schematics of the HP65, along with almost all other (repairable) HP handhelds. The card reader had has 5 wires which are soldered to the card reader PCB, but you say it's not that end you're interested in. Every head I've seen has been potted in epoxy, so you can't see how the wires are connected at that end, or indeed resolder them. What are you trying to do? I might well be able to help. Incidentally, why is this OT? The HP65 is certainly a classic (pun intended). It's also, IMHO, a computer (the internal architecture is that of procrssor + RAM + ROM (albeit the ROM and RAM are on different (serial) buses; it is user programmable). I can't think of a sensible definition of computer which includes things like the KIM-1 and excludes the HP65. -tony I'm repairing/restoring a HP-65 with severe oxidation-damage on the cardreader pcb and a lose headwire. This head was filled with white siliconkit so I was able to remove it and resolder the wire (yellow one). After resoldering,I refilled it with 2k epoxy glue, terminal resistance seems to be allright for both coils and I'm now restoring the PCB traces. The head connection explained it self. -Rik From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Nov 16 14:30:56 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:30:56 -0600 Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box Message-ID: <49208300.3070101@brutman.com> I came across something strange that I need some help with. Pictures are here: http://www.brutman.com/2008_1117_140718_RS232_conv_back.jpg http://www.brutman.com/2008_1117_140718_RS232_conv_top.jpg It looks like a converter box that takes TTL level serial signals and converts to RS232 levels, kind of like the MAXIM single chip solution except that it is using 1488 and 1489 chips. The problem is that it came with a PCjr, but it doesn't physically plug into a PCjr. The onboard serial port is only 16 pins, while the rectangular connector here is 20 pins. It physically doesn't work. Does anybody know another machine or card that might have used the 20 pin header for a serial port? I'm almost thinking that I'm missing another piece (a card internal to the machine) that the header goes to. Regards, Mike From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Nov 16 14:34:06 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:34:06 -0500 Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <49208300.3070101@brutman.com> References: <49208300.3070101@brutman.com> Message-ID: <492083BE.2050604@radiorobots.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I came across something strange that I need some help with. Pictures > are here: > > http://www.brutman.com/2008_1117_140718_RS232_conv_back.jpg > http://www.brutman.com/2008_1117_140718_RS232_conv_top.jpg > > > It looks like a converter box that takes TTL level serial signals and > converts to RS232 levels, kind of like the MAXIM single chip solution > except that it is using 1488 and 1489 chips. > > The problem is that it came with a PCjr, but it doesn't physically > plug into a PCjr. The onboard serial port is only 16 pins, while the > rectangular connector here is 20 pins. It physically doesn't work. > > Does anybody know another machine or card that might have used the 20 > pin header for a serial port? I'm almost thinking that I'm missing > another piece (a card internal to the machine) that the header goes to. > > > Regards, > Mike > Might be TTL/232 converter for a HAM rig, specifically Kenwood TS-930 or '940. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 16 16:06:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:06:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Nov 16, 8 09:08:36 pm Message-ID: > I'm repairing/restoring a HP-65 with severe oxidation-damage on the > cardreader pcb and a lose headwire. > This head was filled with white siliconkit so I was able to remove it and That, I think, is the earlier version. I've never tried to dig out the sealant to repair one. > resolder the wire (yellow one). After resoldering,I refilled it with 2k Which, IIRC, is connected to the other end of the winding that the red wire connects to. > epoxy glue, terminal resistance seems to be allright for both coils and I'm > now restoring the PCB traces. The head connection explained it self. If you need any information (pinouts, testpoints, etc), feel free to ask. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 16 16:10:00 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:10:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <49208300.3070101@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Nov 16, 8 02:30:56 pm Message-ID: > It looks like a converter box that takes TTL level serial signals and > converts to RS232 levels, kind of like the MAXIM single chip solution > except that it is using 1488 and 1489 chips. OK, such things did exist. > > The problem is that it came with a PCjr, but it doesn't physically plug > into a PCjr. The onboard serial port is only 16 pins, while the > rectangular connector here is 20 pins. It physically doesn't work. And the PCjr serial port is at RS232 levels anyway. The PCjr seiral cable is just a cahle, no intenral componnets (I have the PCjr TechRef with schematics...) If it was used wit ha PCjr, then I would guess that the PCjr was connected to the RS232 side of this coverter, and some other device, using a TTL level serial port, was connected to the 20 pin header. I can't think fo anything offhand that would have such a port. It might have been something very specialised (say to control or program some measuring instrument or something). -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 16 16:15:29 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:15:29 -0500 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <4918C8A6.1020306@jbrain.com> <20081111130851.N75006@shell.lmi.net> <200811151902.23968.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49209B81.70205@hawkmountain.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 15, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> OTOH, I can still recall one machine (that I sold!) back when that >> acted up, >> and after a bit of troubleshooting I found _a bad jumper_ in there... > > Ugh! I've had that happen a couple of times. > > Another "fun" one, which was easier to spot, was a jumper that had > no little metal clip inside. It felt secure (which was odd since it's > usually the little metal clip that gives it some friction on the pins) > but upon turning it over, nothing. I got bit by a bad jumper too.... I added jumper 'blocks' (salvaged from a dead HD) to a Cobalt RAQ 3i. Turns out one of the jumpers I put on the voltage selection pins was bad... and I overvolted the CPU and fried it... thankfully I hadn't put in the K6-2+ at that point yet ! -- Curt > > -Dave > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 16 16:21:25 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:21:25 -0500 Subject: Last chance before dumpster In-Reply-To: <491EED91.4080707@hawkmountain.net> References: <491EED91.4080707@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <49209CE5.8060801@hawkmountain.net> Wow... considering I had listed all this stuff before I had not expected such an overwhelming response (the AlphaPC board being the most popular item). BTW, I should mention that the AlphaPC board takes AT class power supply, but with a separate 3V connector as well.... definately not 'common'. (I used one like that in a conversion I did from a Packard Bell Pentium NLX ? system to a Pentium Pro (Intel mobo) which required AT pwr supply with 3.3V. If anyone that chimed up for that wants to bow out due to this odd requirement, let me know. I'll be getting back to everyone who e-mailed me within a day or so... glad this stuff won't be going into a dumpster ! (I paid decent dough for the AlphaPC board, but never got it built... I've sence aquired Aspen Alpine 275XS boxes and a desktop DEC Alpha box.... so not much use for the AlphaPC board). -- Curt From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Nov 16 16:33:26 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:33:26 +0100 Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Nov16, 8 09:08:36 pm Message-ID: <52008AD661774215B20D0B5F28DE7887@xp1800> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 16 november 2008 23:07 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay > I'm repairing/restoring a HP-65 with severe oxidation-damage on the > cardreader pcb and a lose headwire. > This head was filled with white siliconkit so I was able to remove it > and That, I think, is the earlier version. I've never tried to dig out the sealant to repair one. > resolder the wire (yellow one). After resoldering,I refilled it with > 2k Which, IIRC, is connected to the other end of the winding that the red wire connects to. > epoxy glue, terminal resistance seems to be allright for both coils > and I'm now restoring the PCB traces. The head connection explained it self. If you need any information (pinouts, testpoints, etc), feel free to ask. -tony Thanks, but it's fixed and working, and I bought 'your' CD a while ago due time that was very helpfull. Had to wire all the conductor paths on the cardreader pcb. But I made notes about the head connections for who wants to dig. Serial is 1509S07*** but I have another one with the serial 1506S05*** witch has the head filled with epoxy. ___________ |Re Y ##to PCB | Blck | This is the connector layout in the head |Bl Or | |_________| -Rik From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Nov 16 17:20:21 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:20:21 -0600 Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4920AAB5.1050306@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And the PCjr serial port is at RS232 levels anyway. The PCjr seiral cable > is just a cahle, no intenral componnets (I have the PCjr TechRef with > schematics...) Good point - I'm looking in the TechRef and see that now too. I don't know why I was assuming TTL logic levels. > If it was used wit ha PCjr, then I would guess that the PCjr was > connected to the RS232 side of this coverter, and some other device, > using a TTL level serial port, was connected to the 20 pin header. > > I can't think fo anything offhand that would have such a port. It might > have been something very specialised (say to control or program some > measuring instrument or something). > > -tony > > Still clueless. The RS232 side of this device is male, and the serial adapter cable for a PCjr is also male, so it would have needed a gender changer to work in that arrangement. Can I throw something stupid out here? I'm making an assumption that it was for the serial port. However, if it's just converting voltage levels is it possible that it was driven by the parallel port? That's TTL level. (I have no idea what they were attaching to the other side ..) Mike From djg at pdp8.net Sun Nov 16 21:08:57 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:08:57 -0500 Subject: VT100 Grommets Message-ID: <200811170308.mAH38vY31019@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Anybody know where you can purchase the white plastic grommets used with the push pins to hold the VT100 case together or a suitable replacement? Enough are broken my case doesn't want to stay together. DEC parts # was 90-09966-02 or 90-09966-00 From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 22:20:05 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:20:05 -0600 Subject: COBOL Poster Message-ID: <51ea77730811162020i3e79d1c3y21c21df13e459915@mail.gmail.com> I've finally gotten around to photographing a poster I've had for a number of years. Hoping it triggers some memories for at least one person here. I'd love to know who made it, when and most of all *why*: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3037313448/in/photostream/ It's fairly large, maybe 3'x5'. It's actually textured - all the white areas are printed with some sort of coarse sand or grit. Right above the lower brown bar is written in pencil "A New Language" and signed, as far as I can tell "D. Meeny." Googling this info has turned up nothing for me. This was some serious work. I'm not one to question an artist's muse - but someone, somewhere, at some time, sure loved them some COBOL. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Nov 17 00:29:08 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:29:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for SGI Galileo video cable (and breakout box ?) Message-ID: <49210F34.4080409@hawkmountain.net> I have graphics boardset for my R4K Indigo 2 (non impact) (FHV1/VB2/RU1/GU1) which includes the Galileo video board (FHV1). I can get a breakout box... but I can't locate a cable ? Does anyone here have a cable, or a cable + breakout box ? If so, what do you want for it ? -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 17 01:15:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:15:45 -0800 Subject: COBOL Poster In-Reply-To: <51ea77730811162020i3e79d1c3y21c21df13e459915@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730811162020i3e79d1c3y21c21df13e459915@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4920A9A1.28971.67596D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2008 at 22:20, Jason T wrote: > This was some serious work. I'm not one to question an artist's muse > - but someone, somewhere, at some time, sure loved them some COBOL. It also looks like he liked OS/360(370?) JCL... Cheers, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 17 04:30:09 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:30:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT Plugging : HP Integral IPC on ebay In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Nov15, 8 09:53:46 pm Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2008, Rik Bos wrote: [...] > Incidentally, why is this OT? The HP65 is certainly a classic (pun > intended). It's also, IMHO, a computer (the internal architecture is that of > procrssor + RAM + ROM (albeit the ROM and RAM are on different > (serial) buses; it is user programmable). I can't think of a sensible > definition of computer which includes things like the KIM-1 and excludes the > HP65. > > > -tony > > I'm repairing/restoring a HP-65 with severe oxidation-damage on the > cardreader pcb and a lose headwire. > This head was filled with white siliconkit so I was able to remove it and > resolder the wire (yellow one). After resoldering,I refilled it with 2k > epoxy glue, terminal resistance seems to be allright for both coils and I'm > now restoring the PCB traces. The head connection explained it self. > > -Rik Rik, can you please learn to quote? Your messages are indigestible for normal human readers because there is no distinction between your response and the message you are refering to. Christian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 17 11:23:47 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:23:47 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface Message-ID: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> I've taken my newly-acquired PDP-8/E apart to clean out the dust and disintegrated foam, but I've not powered it up yet. (In fact it's still in pieces while I sort out the foam). I'll be checking the capacitors before I go much further. Part of the reason for not powering it up is that it's a 110V version, and here in the UK my mains is 240V. Looking at the engineering drawings (on David Gesswein's site, and Highgate) for the H724 (110V) and H724A (240V) supplies, I see transformer taps shown for both voltages, and on the face of it, it should be very easy to convert. Just a matter of moving the connections from tags 6 and 9 of the relay (or "realy" as the schematic calls it :-)) Has anyone ever done this? Another question: There are four 1N4721 rectifier diodes used for the +8V and +15V supplies (two pairs for two full-wave rectified supplies). Someone before me has disconnected one end of one of them. Usually that's because it's gone short, but my meter says this one is OK. Any ideas why? I'm also lacking any serial interface for this machine. I do have some other spare boards; is anyone (especially in the UK) interested in a trade? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 17 11:48:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:48:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for SGI Galileo video cable (and breakout box ?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:29:08 -0500. <49210F34.4080409@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <49210F34.4080409 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > I have graphics boardset for my R4K Indigo 2 (non impact) > (FHV1/VB2/RU1/GU1) which includes the Galileo video board > (FHV1). > > I can get a breakout box... but I can't locate a cable ? This is a common problem for these video breakout boxes for the SGI. You can check nekochan.net and ask if someone has a spare. I have a breakout box of this variety and the cable to go with it, but I'm not looking to get rid of what I have. Unless someone has one laying around, the best way I've foung to get these hard-to-find cables is to simply squat on an ebay search and wait till one becomes available. You may be forced to buy another breakout box if its sold as a set. Creating them on your own is a little tricky because of the connectors and the shielding required for a good signal, but I'm sure it can be done if you're careful and can obtain the connector. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 17 12:43:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:43:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <49209B81.70205@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Nov 16, 8 05:15:29 pm Message-ID: > I got bit by a bad jumper too.... > > I added jumper 'blocks' (salvaged from a dead HD) to a Cobalt > RAQ 3i. Turns out one of the jumpers I put on the voltage selection > pins was bad... and I overvolted the CPU and fried it... thankfully > I hadn't put in the K6-2+ at that point yet ! Wouldn't it be more sensible if the voltage selection circuit was designed so that if a particular jumper was open it always gave a lower output voltage tyhan if that jumper was closed (all other jumpers being set the same). Then an open jumper would not fry anything. But then it's my bitter experience that good design and PC hardware do not go together... This story has also convinced me to carry on checking all voltage outputs with a meter before connecting anything to them. In this case, to check the CPU power voltages _at the pins of the CPU socket_ before plugging said chip in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 17 12:47:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:47:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP65 card reader head In-Reply-To: <52008AD661774215B20D0B5F28DE7887@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Nov 16, 8 11:33:26 pm Message-ID: > But I made notes about the head connections for who wants to dig. > Serial is 1509S07*** but I have another one with the serial 1506S05*** witch > has the head filled with epoxy. > ___________ > |Re Y ##to PCB > | Blck | This is the connector layout in the head > |Bl Or | > |_________| IIRC, the Red and Yellow wires are one head winding (presumably a track nearer the display end of the calculator), Blue and Orange are the other winding, and black is a grounded screen. I think the data format is that a pulse on one track is a '0' bit and a pulse on the other track is a '1' bit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 17 12:55:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:55:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <4920AAB5.1050306@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Nov 16, 8 05:20:21 pm Message-ID: > Still clueless. The RS232 side of this device is male, and the serial > adapter cable for a PCjr is also male, so it would have needed a gender > changer to work in that arrangement. Well, DB25 gender changers are not uncommon ;-) Now, the IBM serial cable would certainly be wired as a DTE, output on pin 2, input on pin 3. How is this mystery box wired (can you trace from the DB25 plug to 1488s and 1489s?) Is there anything else in the nnit apart from 1488s and 1489s and PSU parts? Any logic? Is there any maker's name on the unit or on the PCB? Does it look to have been commerically soldered or hand-made? SOmebody else suggested it was used to program a ham radio transceiver, it may be something that a radio ham built himself. > > Can I throw something stupid out here? I'm making an assumption that it > was for the serial port. However, if it's just converting voltage > levels is it possible that it was driven by the parallel port? That's > TTL level. (I have no idea what they were attaching to the other side ..) I think it's unlikelt. The PCjr doesn't have a parallel port as standard, if you added one (a 'sidecar' module), it had the normal IBM PC-like DB25 socket on it, same wiring as a PC printer port. And why would you want to convert that to +/-12V levels? OK, one of the autodialer interfaces was essentially that (4 data lines, strobe, various call-progress lines), but did _anyone_ use those with PCs? No, I think it's more likely that it connected to an RS232 port on the computer side, and the TTL level side went to some unknown device. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 17 15:09:04 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:09:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3b1 diagnostics disk Message-ID: Is there someone out there who can make me a diagnostics diskette for an AT&T 3b1 (marked PC7300)? I have one that needs to go to a new home, but it seems like I can't get the heads to park. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Nov 17 15:52:01 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: Last chance before dumpster In-Reply-To: <49209CE5.8060801@hawkmountain.net> References: <491EED91.4080707@hawkmountain.net> <49209CE5.8060801@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4921E781.5030506@mdrconsult.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > (I paid decent dough for the AlphaPC board, but never got it > built... I've sence aquired Aspen Alpine 275XS boxes and a > desktop DEC Alpha box.... so not much use for the AlphaPC > board). I have, somewhere, a scanned manual for the Aspen Alpine. I also have SRM BIOS code for it if I can find that. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 17 16:14:16 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:14:16 -0700 Subject: govliquidation.com raises minimum bid from $50 to $150 Message-ID: Has anyone else noticed this? For all the items in Utah being auctioned, the minimum bid is now $150. That moves most of the stuff out of the bargain category, IMO. $150 for a 20 year old oscilloscope in unknown condition with no probes or manuals? I can do better on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 17 16:24:16 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:24:16 -0800 Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: References: <4920AAB5.1050306@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Nov 16, 8 05:20:21 pm, Message-ID: <49217E90.22080.9B531BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2008 at 18:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Is there anything else in the nnit apart from 1488s and 1489s and PSU > parts? Any logic? > > Is there any maker's name on the unit or on the PCB? Tony, from the photos, it's a homebrew, built on a piece of protoboard with hand wiring between the pads. No other logic, just 1488/89 ICs, which means that a supply of +/-12 or so had to come over the cable. Being homespun, it's hard to say what this might fit, although a serial adapter for an early printer (the Epson MX-80, for example, was sold with only the parallel adapter, even though serial comm logic was present. The "serial" board was pretty much just level- shifting to RS-232 levels. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 18:43:58 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: govliquidation.com raises minimum bid from $50 to $150 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone else noticed this? No. Nobody has. Because most people have abandoned govliq. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 17 20:12:02 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:12:02 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've taken my newly-acquired PDP-8/E apart to clean out the dust and [...] > Part of the reason for not powering it up is that it's a 110V version, > and here in the UK my mains is 240V. Looking at the engineering > drawings (on David Gesswein's site, and Highgate) for the H724 (110V) > and H724A (240V) supplies, I see transformer taps shown for both > voltages, and on the face of it, it should be very easy to convert. Just > a matter of moving the connections from tags 6 and 9 of the relay (or > "realy" as the schematic calls it :-)) Has anyone ever done this? If the print set shows the same part number for the transformer for both the H724 and H724A, it will be fine. However, DEC sometimes used transformers in 60 Hz gear that was undersized for 50 Hz, despite the presence of appropriate taps for 240V mains. IIRC, the 120V/60Hz RX01 had this issue. Eric From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 17 20:13:57 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:13:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <492224E5.9060408@hachti.de> Hi Pete, > I'm also lacking any serial interface for this machine. I do have some > other spare boards; is anyone (especially in the UK) interested in a trade? I have some serial spares. Would trade anything for omnibus core memory! How much core do you have? Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 17 22:45:07 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3b1 / pc7300 restoration Message-ID: I pulled my pc7300 out of the garage and am attempting to get it to a working state. So far, so good. Except that the keyboard appears to be broken. Several keys don't respond. Some that do respond seem to have broken springs. Does someone here have a spare keyboard for a PC7300 / 3b1? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 17 23:54:35 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:54:35 -0700 Subject: govliquidation.com raises minimum bid from $50 to $150 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:43:58 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > Has anyone else noticed this? > > No. Nobody has. Because most people have abandoned govliq. Well, the HP graphics generators come up there fairly often. (I've gotten 3 units from them.) I haven't seen those offered up on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 18 00:00:58 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:00:58 -0500 Subject: Identifying Ultrix media Message-ID: <49225A1A.8010502@hawkmountain.net> While cleaning, I dug up some ULTRIX CDs I didn't know I had. Curious as to find out exactly what I have and if it is complete... ULTRIX WS V2.0 (VAX) SUPPORTED/UNSUPPORTED February 1989 AG-ND76A-RE U-32 V3.1/UWS V2.2 (VAX/RISC) Supported/Unsupported Disc 1 of 1 January 1990 AG-PB5SA-RE ULTRIX-32 V3.1-UWS V2.1 (VX-RSC) UPD June 1989 AG-NJ50A-RE ULTRIX Online Documentation Library Diskc 1 of 1 December 1991 AG-PEZBH-RE ULTRIX and UWS V4.2 SUPP/UNSUPP (VAX) Includes Mandatory UPG Disc 1 of 1 June 1991 AG-ND76D-RE ULTRIX and UWS V4.2 SUPP/UNSUPP (RISC) Includes Mandatory UPG Disc 1 of 1 May 1991 AG-MM16F-RE Does this mean I have Ultrix 4.2 for VAX and RISC, Ultrix 3.1 for FAX and RISC, Ultrix 3.1 Update ? What is Ultrix WS 2.0 (windowing system?) ? Trying to figure out what I have here and how complete/ incomplete it is. Thanks, -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 18 00:03:29 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:03:29 -0500 Subject: Microvax II chassis for trade Message-ID: <49225AB1.6060007@hawkmountain.net> I have a Microvax II chassis (no qbus boards installed) that I've decided I am not going to use. Would like to trade it for the plastic? deskside enclosure for my PDP-11/83 (which came out of a rack). Anyone local to Sharon, MA (or Cambridge, MA) interested in trading ? -- Curt From Reid.Allen at eni.com Mon Nov 17 10:29:07 2008 From: Reid.Allen at eni.com (Reid Allen) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:29:07 -0600 Subject: NorPak??? Message-ID: Norpak was a logic device that used only 'NOR' gates. It preceded the PLC concept. The gates were hardwired. Since any logic function can be created using negative Boolean operators (NOR or NAND) they were usable for solid state control systems in place of relays. We used a Norpak system at the San Francisco International Airport on a plane fueling system in the middle 1960s. They had 10 NOR gates per module, and we wired modules using something like #20 AWG wires with some kind of termination on the end that could be inserted into the Norpak units. One had to be very careful using the units because after the various functions and their arrangement had been designed there were often redundant gates in series that could be eliminated, but this caused transparency of design to be lost. I was working for the Standard Oil Company of California in those days down on 225 Bush Street. Reid C. Allen, P.E. Roberts & Schaefer 10150 South Centennial Parkway #400 Sandy, Utah 84070 Reid.Allen at eni.com Tel: 801.984.0900 Ext. 210 Fax: 801.984.0909 Cell: 801.634.5640 NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and please delete it from your computer. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Nov 17 13:15:04 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:15:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811171919.OAA11347@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Wouldn't it be more sensible if the voltage selection circuit [were] > designed so that if a particular jumper [were] open it always gave a > lower output voltage tyhan if that jumper was closed (all other > jumpers being set the same). Then an open jumper would not fry > anything. That's predicated on the assumption that undervoltage is safe. I'm not convinced this is true; it seems plausible, even probable, to me that undervoltage can lead to excessive current draw and such things as logic not working right, producing "impossible" conditions like multiple drivers squabbling over bus lines. (Consider what SMPSUs do when fed undervoltage.) > But then it's my bitter experience that good design and PC hardware > do not go together... Preach it, brother! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 18 02:08:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:08:21 -0800 Subject: NorPak??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49220775.20926.BCBD391@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2008 at 10:29, Reid Allen wrote: > Norpak was a logic device that used only 'NOR' gates. It preceded the > PLC concept. The gates were hardwired. Since any logic function can > be created using negative Boolean operators (NOR or NAND) they were > usable for solid state control systems in place of relays. We used a > Norpak system at the San Francisco International Airport on a plane > fueling system in the middle 1960s. They had 10 NOR gates per module, > and we wired modules using something like #20 AWG wires with some kind > of termination on the end that could be inserted into the Norpak > units. > > One had to be very careful using the units because after the various > functions and their arrangement had been designed there were often > redundant gates in series that could be eliminated, but this caused > transparency of design to be lost. > > I was working for the Standard Oil Company of California in those days > down on 225 Bush Street. I think your post is in reply to a July 2002 posting: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2002-July/003701.html Don't worry--timeliness doesn't seem to be a feature of this list! NORPAK (the way Square-D writes it) modules occasionally show up on eBay. Right now, there's a 1967 catalog and two modules (a time delay unit and a signal converter). The Square D website gives the year of introduction as 1958. Cheers, Chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 11:43:18 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:43:18 -0500 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <491F7A44.1070600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20081115202500.48AF03800072F@portal.seefried.com> <491F7A44.1070600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7d3530220811180943k27909f11ke64786cf59536342@mail.gmail.com> On 11/15/08, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Ken Seefried wrote: > > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And what was NASA doing for the last 30 years ???. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hubble. Galileo. Cassini. Chandra. Deep Impact. Swift. MRO. Spirit. > Opportunity. Pheonix. Viking. > > Messenger. Lunar Prospector. NEAR. Spitzer. ISS. > > Ulysses. Voyager. Terra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems once MAN landed on the moon, NASA has been a complete > > > > flop > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously. > > > > KJ > > > > > > > Notice all that the payloads have all been about the same mass > and same solid cmos techology ... > > Yep, that Hubble telescope and the ISS both weigh as much as Voyager did, and were launched in exactly the same fashion. If you want to consider NASA a flop for sending out solid scientific missions instead of flashy manned landings (which I like too, of course), go ahead, but at least admit your reason for criticism. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 18 13:29:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:29:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: <200811171919.OAA11347@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Nov 17, 8 02:15:04 pm Message-ID: > > > Wouldn't it be more sensible if the voltage selection circuit [were] > > designed so that if a particular jumper [were] open it always gave a > > lower output voltage tyhan if that jumper was closed (all other > > jumpers being set the same). Then an open jumper would not fry > > anything. > > That's predicated on the assumption that undervoltage is safe. I'm not Ture... > convinced this is true; it seems plausible, even probable, to me that > undervoltage can lead to excessive current draw and such things as > logic not working right, producing "impossible" conditions like > multiple drivers squabbling over bus lines. (Consider what SMPSUs do > when fed undervoltage.) Yes, but SMPSUs do approximate a constant power load, so they draw more current as the input voltage drops, hence the damage on too low an input voltage. I would be suprised if any CPU chip had that property. But yes, too low a voltage could case things like internal contentions if 2 drivers were turned on at once. I don't know if this is likely (I don;t have any modern CPUs...) I also don't know how quickly this would cause damage (would you have time to notice the machine wasn't even attempting the POST and then turn it off before the CPU was damaged)? > > But then it's my bitter experience that good design and PC hardware > > do not go together... > > Preach it, brother! That goes back, alas, to the very first IBM PC. I've often though the PC schematic should be used as an example of how _not_ to design things... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 18 13:34:39 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:34:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <49217E90.22080.9B531BE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 17, 8 02:24:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Nov 2008 at 18:55, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is there anything else in the nnit apart from 1488s and 1489s and PSU > > parts? Any logic? > > > > Is there any maker's name on the unit or on the PCB? > > Tony, from the photos, it's a homebrew, built on a piece of > protoboard with hand wiring between the pads. No other logic, just > 1488/89 ICs, which means that a supply of +/-12 or so had to come > over the cable. Well, that it curious. I would have thought very few devices had +/-12V supplies and a TTL level serial port (given the former, adding the buffers to RS232 is trivial and cheap, and makes the device a lot more useful). > > Being homespun, it's hard to say what this might fit, although a > serial adapter for an early printer (the Epson MX-80, for example, > was sold with only the parallel adapter, even though serial comm > logic was present. The "serial" board was pretty much just level- > shifting to RS-232 levels. I beleive there were actually 2 serial adapters for Epson dot matrix printers. One was just buffers, fonfig switches, and minimal logic. I _think_ the serial port was bit-banged on one of the printe microcontrollers, I don;t think said microcontroller has a hardware UART. The other serial interface contained a microcontorller and buffer RAM, and was essentially an RS232->Centronics interface. I guess there were +/-112V supplies on the intenral interface connector of the Epson printer. But I think you had to add some configuration switches (which IIRC were read over the port normally used for Centronics data ioput) to make it useful. So I dout that's what this device is for. As an aside, somewhere I have what appears to be a GPIB interface board for an Epson dot matrix printer. I must dig it out and try it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 18 13:37:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 17, 8 06:12:02 pm Message-ID: > > If the print set shows the same part number for the transformer for both > the H724 and H724A, it will be fine. However, DEC sometimes used > transformers in 60 Hz gear that was undersized for 50 Hz, despite the > presence of appropriate taps for 240V mains. IIRC, the 120V/60Hz RX01 > had this issue. The RX01/RX02 PSU is somewhat strange, it uses one of those ferroresonant transformers. So you'd have to change things depending on the mains frequency,. I think you're right, the transformer in that unit was different between the 50 and 60Hz versions (but the 50Hz one didn't work properly on 60Hz mains, unlile the more normal case where the 60Hz version is undersized for 50Hz, and the 50Hz one will work fine on 60Hz). Of course you also had to change the drive spindle motor pulley when you changed the mains input frequency in the RX01/02. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 18 15:58:42 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081118135649.E47914@shell.lmi.net> Which Radio Shack products had a TTL level serial port? The "boss" at the Radio Shack "Computer Center" said that they did, indeed, have "Radio Shack 232C" ports. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 18 16:27:53 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:27:53 -0800 Subject: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? In-Reply-To: References: <200811171919.OAA11347@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Nov 17, 8 02:15:04 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:29 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Plug-n-Play for vintage machines? > [snip] > > > > But then it's my bitter experience that good design and PC hardware > > > do not go together... > > > > Preach it, brother! > > That goes back, alas, to the very first IBM PC. I've often though the > PC > schematic should be used as an example of how _not_ to design things... > I can't help but think about a comedy routine (I think it was George Carlin, but I can't recall for sure) about God designing the platypus - while stoned. Irreverent but hilarious. -- Ian From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Nov 18 16:28:53 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:28:53 +0100 Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" In-Reply-To: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> References: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> Bill Pileggi wrote: > It's the end of my fall clean-up, and I've decided to discontinue "collecting" Creative Labs Sound Blaster Cards any more; though the proper term might be "accumulate"... Roughly 1991-1997, ISA. [I have a bunch of PCI cards if you need them...] > > Been doing this for the last 10 years or so. I have a list of models and part numbers, please email me off-list request a copy. Anybody else 'collecting' Sound cards? I don't have a price, is there a market? > > I also have a list of VGA Video Cards/ISA/PCI/AGP...Bill KA3AIS > > A member of the vintage-computer forum is looking for a "Creative Game Blaster Card": http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9158/creativegameblasterct13wn1.jpg If you have one, maybe I can hook you guys up? /P From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 18 14:56:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:56:46 -0800 Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: References: <49217E90.22080.9B531BE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 17, 8 02:24:16 pm, Message-ID: <4922BB8E.2045.E8B6412@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2008 at 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, that it curious. I would have thought very few devices had +/-12V > supplies and a TTL level serial port (given the former, adding the > buffers to RS232 is trivial and cheap, and makes the device a lot more > useful). I don't recall, except that I constructed a serial interface for an MX-80 (might have been FX-80, I don't remember) and used a 6 v photo battery to provide the negative signal levels for handshaking. It was very simple and I may have picked up the circuit out of one of the magazines of the time. I believe that the IBM O&A has a schematic for at least one of the Epson printers. That might provide some hints if anyone's curious. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 18 20:07:24 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:07:24 -0700 Subject: Another NASA recovery story In-Reply-To: <7d3530220811180943k27909f11ke64786cf59536342@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081115202500.48AF03800072F@portal.seefried.com> <491F7A44.1070600@jetnet.ab.ca> <7d3530220811180943k27909f11ke64786cf59536342@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <492374DC.3080204@jetnet.ab.ca> John Floren wrote: > Yep, that Hubble telescope and the ISS both weigh as much as Voyager > did, and were launched in exactly the same fashion. > > If you want to consider NASA a flop for sending out solid scientific > missions instead of flashy manned landings (which I like too, of > course), go ahead, but at least admit your reason for criticism. > > John > The reasion is the 'flashy' un-manned missons. This will be my last post since it is OT, but I beleave in repair of equipment, rather than the throw-away state we are in. As a Canadian I can't say too much to a senator about how I see NASA could be run better, but if were not for the latest stupid war the fact that you can't put in orbit any private manned manned craft even it was to the ISS, that I think is over the USA in orbits. If you look at all the designs I have seen, 90% of the cost is R&D for a super-sized launch craft.They have to use the other 10% for fuel .... ect. That is the trend NASA was forced into do to the DOD, US Gov, and the Budget system for R&D and RED tape. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 20:59:32 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:59:32 -0600 Subject: LIFE Magazine images Message-ID: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> Google has archived the LIFE photo collection. There is much to be mined here, like this extremely serious business: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=ibm+source:life&imgurl=97ab81b6fc379f01 From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 18 21:39:56 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:39:56 -0600 Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" In-Reply-To: <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> References: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> Pontus wrote: > A member of the vintage-computer forum is looking for a "Creative Game > Blaster Card": > > http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9158/creativegameblasterct13wn1.jpg > > If you have one, maybe I can hook you guys up? I normally don't toss around the term "rare", but that card is rare. It was Creative's original competitor to the Adlib and was marketed as such (Creative Music System, as the Adlib was originally marketed as a music card and not a gaming card). Radio Shack realized it might sell better as a gaming card and sold it as the Game Blaster with a bundled game that supported it, and a year later Creative finally realized that the best way to compete with Adlib was to completely plagiarize it as the Sound Blaster. As for what it could do, it is two Phillips SAA1099 chips ganged together to produce 12 stereo sine waves with two noise channels. Compared to the 2-operator FM synthesis of Adlib, it was a complete joke. Imagine the cacophony of four PCjrs squawking in stereo and you've got a good idea of what the CMS sounded like. Original Sound Blasters are uncommon; the Creative Music System/Game Blaster card is rare. I have one of each release including packaging; it took me over 1.5 decades to get them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Nov 18 22:10:42 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:10:42 -0500 Subject: Microvax II chassis for trade In-Reply-To: <492306DB.3050104@cimmeri.com> References: <492306DB.3050104@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <492391C2.3030207@hawkmountain.net> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > *You've got a bare BA23 that you're looking to trade for the BA23's pedestal enclosure? > * No. I have a BA123 that I'm looking to trade for 'skins'? for a BA23. I have basically an 11/83 as removed from a 'small' rack such as this: http://hampage.hu/dr/kepek/H96XX.jpg And want to have it be like: http://hampage.hu/dr/kepek/ba23mvII.gif I'd imagine the BA23 as removed from the rack is what is at the core of the deskside/desktop BA23.... So, I'm looking to trade the BA123 for skins, or an empty desktop/deskside BA23. -- Curt > * > Is your 11/83 in a BA23 also? > > *Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:03:29 -0500 > From: "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." > Subject: Microvax II chassis for trade > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <49225AB1.6060007 at hawkmountain.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I have a Microvax II chassis (no qbus boards installed) that I've > decided I am not going to use. > > Would like to trade it for the plastic? deskside enclosure for > my PDP-11/83 (which came out of a rack). > > Anyone local to Sharon, MA (or Cambridge, MA) interested in > trading ? > > -- Curt From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 18 22:11:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:11:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Model M - Type 7 cross Message-ID: Would anyone here be interested in rallying for a ruggedised Type 7 keyboard? I'm thinking of something built like a Model M. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 18 23:23:22 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:23:22 -0800 Subject: LIFE Magazine images References: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> Jason T wrote: > > Google has archived the LIFE photo collection. There is much to be > mined here, like this extremely serious business: > > http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=ibm+source:life&imgurl=97ab81b6fc379f01 No tagline/description? Guess the machine? IO channel control units in front left? CPU console centre rear? IBM 70x0 something machine? From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 18 23:39:18 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:39:18 -0600 Subject: LIFE Magazine images In-Reply-To: <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730811182139x335d8f5bib2112bdc6bd57629@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > No tagline/description? Guess the machine? Clicking "Back to image details" brings you back to the LIFE caption, although it's not very helpful in answering any of those questions. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 19 00:04:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:04:11 -0800 Subject: LIFE Magazine images In-Reply-To: <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com>, <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49233BDB.30875.1080D6A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2008 at 21:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Jason T wrote: > > > > Google has archived the LIFE photo collection. There is much to be > > mined here, like this extremely serious business: > > > > http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=ibm+source:life&imgurl=97ab81b6fc379f01 > > No tagline/description? Guess the machine? > IO channel control units in front left? > CPU console centre rear? > IBM 70x0 something machine? The console behind the desk? Yeah, looks like a 7090 to me. Ed Thielen's census of 7090 installations pretty much confirms it: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-ibm7070.html Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 19 00:05:10 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:05:10 -0800 Subject: LIFE Magazine images References: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> <51ea77730811182139x335d8f5bib2112bdc6bd57629@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4923AC95.29520E01@cs.ubc.ca> Jason T wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > No tagline/description? Guess the machine? > > Clicking "Back to image details" brings you back to the LIFE caption, > although it's not very helpful in answering any of those questions. Yes, I did find that, they're a little bit better for some of the other photos. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Nov 19 04:51:52 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:51:52 +0000 Subject: What is this system? In-Reply-To: <200811181800.mAII0JxP076302@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811181800.mAII0JxP076302@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Now I have more space in my computer room my elder brother offered me two systems he picked up some years ago. I don't know much about either, but bitsavers has references to one, which is a Texas Instruments 990 with twin 8 inch floppies and a terminal. I have not tried powering it up yet and I dont have any boot disks but it looks interesting. It has a 12 or 13 slot chassis with most of the standard cards present except no printer card. Is this rare, can I get boot disks, would anyone want to buy it, what can I do with it? Much the same questions for the second system but also, what is it. It too has two 8 inch floppy drives, two volumes of manuals for Xenix but no floppies. It is marked "Advanced Micro Computers Inc Microprocessor Development System 29/05". There is a sticker saying Memec Systems Ltd. The front panel is divided into two, one says "Support processor" and the other "Microprogrammed system". Could this really be a proper microprogrammable system or is it just system using a microprocessor. Either way, which programming/microprogramming architecture is it? Any relation to the AMD 2900 bit slice chips? For a couple of months I wrote microcode back in about 1974 but not on this system. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 09:23:59 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:23:59 -0500 Subject: LIFE Magazine images In-Reply-To: <49233BDB.30875.1080D6A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> <4923A2CA.5CBE2DA@cs.ubc.ca> <49233BDB.30875.1080D6A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The console behind the desk? Yeah, looks like a 7090 to me. The panels at the front left are for channel control of a 709x machine. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 19 09:38:37 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:38:37 -0500 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: References: <200808180105.m7I158KH093623@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > I'll hunt for mice. I don't think I kept a spare, but if I did, > I'll let you know. [old message referring to 3B1 mice, I couldn't find mine] I found my 3B1 mice. I hope to get the machine running soon, but I seem to have a shortage of functional MFM drives. Ugh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Nov 19 09:37:20 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:37:20 +0100 Subject: differences SA1000, ST506 Message-ID: <20081119163720.a27ec9cb.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, I wonder if a ST506 drive can be used without problems on a SA1000 interface controller. The signals seems to be the same, but ST506 is working on a slightly higher transfer rate. Would it work with a 50 -> 34 pin adapter cable? Did even someone has experience in it? Seems hard to find SA1000 disk drives nowadays... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 19 10:25:02 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:25:02 -0800 Subject: What is this system? Message-ID: <49243DDE.3000707@bitsavers.org> "Advanced Micro Computers Inc Microprocessor Development System 29/05" It is a multibus CP/M system for development of 2900 microcode. There were cards available for downloading of microcode to a target system, and a microassembler. docs under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/amsys29 I have a bunch of docs scanned for this system, and the software. You're the first person I've heard about coming across one of these in a long time. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 19 10:47:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:47:44 -0800 Subject: What is this system? In-Reply-To: <49243DDE.3000707@bitsavers.org> References: <49243DDE.3000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4923D2B0.19999.12CDD115@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2008 at 8:25, Al Kossow wrote: > You're the first person I've heard about coming across one > of these in a long time. I don't suspect that there were ever many of these out there, nor the Z8000 development system. AMC was an ill-starred short-lived joint venture between AMD and Siemens, IIRC. One of the many boondoggles of the early 80's. I've still got some literature for their Z8000 system. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 12:57:28 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:57:28 -0500 Subject: Gould Concepts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > There are apparently some ex-Sikorsky Gould Concept superminis as a > recycler in the Northeast available. The total weight of the few > (three?) systems could be a ton and a half. Is there any interest? The Goulds apparently did not last very long. I do not know where they went. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 19 13:04:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:04:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <20081118135649.E47914@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 18, 8 01:58:42 pm Message-ID: > > Which Radio Shack products had a TTL level serial port? Something fairly obscrue? I know the M1, M3, M4, M100, all the CoCos (and the deluxe RS232 pac for the COCO), PC2 had the proper voltage levels. I assume the M2/12/16 did too -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 19 13:47:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:47:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081119114022.S80948@shell.lmi.net> > > Which Radio Shack products had a TTL level serial port? On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > Something fairly obscrue? > I know the M1, M3, M4, M100, all the CoCos (and the deluxe RS232 pac for > the COCO), PC2 had the proper voltage levels. I assume the M2/12/16 did too According to doctor Marty, the Tandy portable disk drive is serial TTL (He says that there are diodes and resistors inside the DB25 hood of the "special" cable) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 19 13:54:28 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:54:28 -0500 Subject: LIFE Magazine images In-Reply-To: <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811191954.mAJJsZIq095606@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:59:32 -0600, Jason T wrote: >Google has archived the LIFE photo collection. There is much to be >mined here, like this extremely serious business: >http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=ibm+source:life&imgurl=97ab81b6fc379f01 IBM 527 High-Speed Punches can be seen in both the forground and background on the right side. First introduced with the 604, these two have the later style logo/mastheads. Bob From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 19 14:57:12 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:57:12 +0100 Subject: sometimes you win, and sometrimes... Message-ID: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> ..you loose, like today, when I found out that on the, literally, 7581 files I transferred between the Lilith and my Linux box, each last byte has been corrupted..... Sigh... Either the Linux or the Lilith Kermit must have had a bug. Small wonder the emulated Modula compiler hat problems. Jos From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 19 11:49:32 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:49:32 -0700 Subject: LIFE Magazine images In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:59:32 -0600. <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730811181859u16d8efcdyc1ddad898dcf1307 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Google has archived the LIFE photo collection. Thanks for this tip... there's lots of nice SAGE photos in that collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 17:01:21 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:01:21 -0600 Subject: sometimes you win, and sometrimes... In-Reply-To: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> References: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <49249AC1.6030608@gmail.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > ..you loose, like today, when I found out that on the, literally, 7581 > files I transferred between the Lilith and my Linux box, each last byte > has been corrupted..... How long did the transfer take? If it was a significant amount of time I think I'd be looking at a quick bit of code to scan every file on the Lilith and log the last byte against each filename - then transfer the log* and hack some more code on the Linux side to fix the last byte... * just make sure you add an extra throwaway byte at the end ;-) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 19 18:04:00 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:04:00 -0800 Subject: What is this system? In-Reply-To: <4923D2B0.19999.12CDD115@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49243DDE.3000707@bitsavers.org> <4923D2B0.19999.12CDD115@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4924A970.6000602@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > AMC was an ill-starred short-lived joint > venture between AMD and Siemens, IIRC. One of the many boondoggles > of the early 80's. Their Gremlin wasn't so great, either. :-) Eric From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 19 18:44:10 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:44:10 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <492224E5.9060408@hachti.de> References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> <492224E5.9060408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4924B2DA.5050401@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/11/2008 02:13, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Would trade anything for omnibus core memory! Anything? > How much core do you have? I've not yet tested the core, so I don't know if both sets work. I've tested some other spare boards; one at least (an M8300) is faulty and I may have already found a home for a couple. I'll let you know... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 19 18:54:39 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:54:39 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> <49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4924B54F.8090608@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/11/2008 02:12, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Part of the reason for not powering it up is that it's a 110V version, >> and here in the UK my mains is 240V. Looking at the engineering >> drawings (on David Gesswein's site, and Highgate) for the H724 (110V) >> and H724A (240V) supplies, I see transformer taps shown for both >> voltages, and on the face of it, it should be very easy to convert. > If the print set shows the same part number for the transformer for both > the H724 and H724A, it will be fine. However, DEC sometimes used > transformers in 60 Hz gear that was undersized for 50 Hz, despite the > presence of appropriate taps for 240V mains. IIRC, the 120V/60Hz RX01 > had this issue. The scan of the 240V schematic isn't very clear but it certainly looks like the same part numbers. Anyway, I took it apart this evening and after a bit off a tussle I managed to get at the primary terminals on the power transformer (the small one for the relay power is easy to see). It did indeed have both taps, labelled as per the schematic. I've changed the mains input connections on both transformers (but not the 115V fan connection!) so as far as I can see, it should now be ready to go. I've decided to be extra careful, and re-form the main electrolytics. So far the ones I've done look fine, but it'll be a while before I get them all done, as I have to do one at a time (more or less), and isolate each from the circuit. The terminals are easy to get at but the wiring is tightly packed and I can't see the values so I'm not entirely sure which ones are which. It would help to have a component layout drawing, which I imagine would be part of the engineering drawings set. However, all I can find online are the schematics and layouts for the two little control boards. Does anyone have the rest of the drawings? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 19 21:08:16 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:08:16 -0700 Subject: Identifying Ultrix media In-Reply-To: <200811181800.mAII0JxD076302@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811181800.mAII0JxD076302@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4924D4A0.9070303@rogerwilco.org> On 18 Nov 2008, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. said: > While cleaning, I dug up some ULTRIX CDs I didn't know I had. > > Curious as to find out exactly what I have and if it is complete... > > [...] > > Does this mean I have Ultrix 4.2 for VAX and RISC, > Ultrix 3.1 for FAX and RISC, Ultrix 3.1 Update ? > What is Ultrix WS 2.0 (windowing system?) ? > > Trying to figure out what I have here and how complete/ > incomplete it is. I'm no expert, but I've done a little ULTRIX sleuthing myself over the last couple of years, learning more about ULTRIX and how to use it on my c. 1990 DECSystem 5400, which is RISC-based. From my experience, primarily with with ULTRIX 4.5, 4.3, and 4.2, I'd say that the 4.2 discs, one each for VAX and RISC, would be considered a 'complete set' for each architecture. The online documentation disc is probably a companion for either or both of these 4.2 install discs. I'm not acquainted with the earlier releases (though I'd like to be), but it would appear that the ULTRIX-32 V3.1 with UWS V2.2 should be considered complete (for both VAX and RISC) since you have both the ULTRIX OS + UWS on the one disc, which also looks to supersede the ULTRIX-32 V3.1-UWS V2.1 UPDATE disc. As for the V2.0, I have no idea if you have a complete ULTRIX + UWS package, or if it is just the UWS. - Jared From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Nov 19 21:08:26 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:08:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals Message-ID: I'm looking for a set of manuals for the Proteon P4100/P4100+/P4200 routers, circa 1989 or earlier. I'm guessing Proteon was an independent company until DEC bought them at some point? Just guessing. Anyway, if you've got a set of manuals I'd be interested in purchasing them from you. Please contact me directly if you have some. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From james at jdfogg.com Wed Nov 19 21:41:28 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:41:28 -0500 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals Message-ID: <4924dc68.35b.bc4.21765@jdfogg.com> > I'm looking for a set of manuals for the Proteon > P4100/P4100+/P4200 routers, circa 1989 or earlier. I'm > guessing Proteon was an independent company until DEC > bought them at some point? Just guessing. Anyway, if > you've got a set of manuals I'd be interested in > purchasing them from you. > > Please contact me directly if you have some. Wow, there's a flashback. I was working for Proteon when these were developed. I helped prototype some of the boards. I used to work extensively with these post-Proteon and now remember almost nothing about them. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Wed Nov 19 21:51:36 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:51:36 -0700 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals Message-ID: <4924DEC8.40006@rogerwilco.org> On Wed Nov 19 21:08:26 CST 2008, Sellam Ismail sellam said: > I'm looking for a set of manuals for the Proteon P4100/P4100+/P4200 > routers, circa 1989 or earlier. I'm guessing Proteon was an independent > company until DEC bought them at some point? Just guessing. Anyway, if > you've got a set of manuals I'd be interested in purchasing them from you. I can't help you with manuals, but I will confirm that Proteon was indeed an independent firm in the 80's. During the early and mid-80's I was a member of Novell's technical staff during and had a good working relationships with several Proteon engineers. Novell, of course, had PC networking software and was working with just about any and all PC networking hardware vendors to make sure that there was a NetWare driver for their gear. At that time, Proteon had their own flavor of token-ring over twisted pair style hardware call Pro-Net. I don't remember the details or the transfer rates, but it was not particularly successful and later Proteon ended up joining the shift of the industry to Ethernet. Somewhere along the way, in the very early 90's, I think, they combined with 3Com. If I remember right, Proteon was located in Waltham, MA during the 80's. - Jared From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 00:11:05 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:11:05 +1100 Subject: Introduction to Programming the PDP-8 References: <4924DEC8.40006@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: I've listed this book on eBay, someone on the list may be interested (it's way outta line for my Commodore collecting :) ) Written in 1973 by DEC http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=110313070356 cheers, Lance From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 20 03:11:44 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:11:44 +0000 Subject: Introduction to Programming the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4924DEC8.40006@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <492529D0.4040805@gjcp.net> Lance Lyon wrote: > I've listed this book on eBay, someone on the list may be interested > (it's way outta line for my Commodore collecting :) ) > > Written in 1973 by DEC > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=110313070356 I've got a copy of that, which came from Craigmount Secondary School in Edinburgh. Found by my Mum in a second-hand bookshop in the Grassmarket - "Oh, I spotted *this* and thought you might be interested, is it any good?" Yes, it is... Good enough, in fact, for me to write a fairly reasonable PDP8 emulator that, while not quite cycle-accurate, ran ODT and and the 4K Disk System reasonably well. I must resurrect it, some time. Gordon From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 20 06:13:42 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:13:42 +0100 Subject: http://www.series80.org/ dead ? Message-ID: Does anyone knows what happened with the site http://www.series80.org/ It appears to be dead.. -Rik From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 20 06:50:14 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:50:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: CRT displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Oct 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > This reminds me of the CRT display of a Cogar C4 (or ICL/Friden 1501). It is > a standard 5" CRT with an almost ordinary deflection system. But the > deflection itself is rotated/mirrored, i.e. the "vertical" sweep is from left > to right and the "horizontal sweep" from top to bottom. So the display > controller writes all characters from the first text column first (and then > IIRC only the text lines 1,3,5 and 7). Then comes the next columns. After all > 32 columns come the even text lines (there's a display mode which only > displays lines 1,2,3 and 4; the display has a 32 x 8 character cells). But > that's not all. There is a second horizontal deflection coil that interferes > with the first main deflection coil (I think this is called twiggle sweep or > something like that). This second coil deflects the beam according to the > width of one character cell, and one raster line of a character is written on > the screen during this time. I must correct what I wrote last month. I was thinking of two different systems. The Cogar indeed has a rotated deflection system, but only one standard horizontal deflection coil. In fact, I was thinking of the CRT display in the IBM 3742 data station (see MIM number 306 and MAP 3.5). The character deflection is called "Wiggle Sweep". Christian From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 20 07:26:43 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:26:43 +0000 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <20081119114022.S80948@shell.lmi.net> References: <20081119114022.S80948@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <112020081326.28067.49256593000ACD3500006DA322218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> large govliquidation lot auction opened today has two types of keypunch consoles, one of which seems to be unused IBM equip. Photo shows it even has some documentation. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 From vrs at msn.com Thu Nov 20 09:42:42 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:42:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com><49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> <4924B54F.8090608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: "Pete Turnbull" Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:54 PM > I've decided to be extra careful, and re-form the main electrolytics. > So far the ones I've done look fine, but it'll be a while before I get > them all done, as I have to do one at a time (more or less), and isolate > each from the circuit. The terminals are easy to get at but the wiring > is tightly packed and I can't see the values so I'm not entirely sure > which ones are which. It would help to have a component layout drawing, > which I imagine would be part of the engineering drawings set. However, > all I can find online are the schematics and layouts for the two little > control boards. Does anyone have the rest of the drawings? From: alt.sys.pdp8 October 15, 2007 >On Oct 7, 4:32 pm, "Gordon S. Hlavenka" wrote: >> Well then, try this:http://www.crashelex.com/pdp8e-IPB.PDF >> >> (BTW I encourage anybody else who's archiving docs to snag this one >> since I can't promise how long it'll stay on my server :-) >> >> -- >> Gordon S. Hlavenka http://www.crashelectronics.com >> It's bad luck to be superstitious >THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Gordon!! > >Saved me hours of tracing wires. Found 3 blown pass transistors >(2N3055) in the +5V supply. Thankfully one can still purchase these >from Digikey. >Hope to get the power supply fixed this weekend so I can start >testing boards. > >Roger Wink The information you seek is on scan pages 10 and 14 of 35, and the PDF is still available at crashlex.com. (I actually found it in my local copy, then went to see if it was still out there.) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 20 09:43:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:43:33 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:26:43 +0000. <112020081326.28067.49256593000ACD3500006DA322218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Message-ID: In article <112020081326.28067.49256593000ACD3500006DA322218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C at att.net>, shumaker at att.net writes: > large govliquidation lot auction opened today has two types of keypunch consoles , one of which seems to be unused IBM equip. Photo shows it even has some docum entation. > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 > That looks like the kind of keypunch we had at the University of Delaware around 1979/1980. I remember using them to duplicate punched cards just for the purpose of making confetti :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 20 10:16:44 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:16:44 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com><49222472.70500@brouhaha.com> <4924B54F.8090608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49258D6C.90301@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2008 15:42, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Pete Turnbull" Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:54 PM >> However, all I can find online are the schematics and >> layouts for the two little control boards. Does anyone have the rest >> of the drawings? > From: alt.sys.pdp8 October 15, 2007 >> On Oct 7, 4:32 pm, "Gordon S. Hlavenka" wrote: >>> Well then, try this:http://www.crashelex.com/pdp8e-IPB.PDF > The information you seek is on scan pages 10 and 14 of 35, and the PDF > is still available at crashlex.com. (I actually found it in my local > copy, then went to see if it was still out there.) Thanks, Vince! I actually had a local copy of that too, but I forgot, and didn't check it. It's exactly what I want. Many thanks to Gordon, too, for making it available. The associated parts list also explains perfectly the discrepancy between the part number painted on the transformer and the part number given in the schematic. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Nov 20 10:32:45 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:32:45 +0000 Subject: Introduction to Programming the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <492529D0.4040805@gjcp.net> References: <4924DEC8.40006@rogerwilco.org> <492529D0.4040805@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4925912D.5060207@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2008 09:11, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Lance Lyon wrote: >> I've listed this book on eBay, someone on the list may be interested >> (it's way outta line for my Commodore collecting :) ) >> >> Written in 1973 by DEC >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=110313070356 > > > I've got a copy of that, which came from Craigmount Secondary School in > Edinburgh. I used to work there, and I remember the PDP-8s. Two 8/Es and an 8/F as I recall, and one other IIRC but I can't remember what the other one was. I will have used that book :-) There was also an HP2000 of some sort, and later an Apple ][ and then one of the very first batch of BBC Micros. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Nov 20 12:36:16 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:36:16 +0000 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <200811201800.mAKI05bV017882@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811201800.mAKI05bV017882@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: From: Richard > Subject: Re: keypunch equip on govliquidation > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > In article <112020081326.28067.49256593000ACD3500006DA322218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C at att.net > >, > shumaker at att.net writes: > >> large govliquidation lot auction opened today has two types of >> keypunch consoles > , one of which seems to be unused IBM equip. Photo shows it even > has some docum > entation. >> >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view? >> id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 >> > > That looks like the kind of keypunch we had at the University of > Delaware > around 1979/1980. I remember using them to duplicate punched cards > just > for the purpose of making confetti :). The earlier pictures are .029 keypunches which look to be in great conditions. The next to last picture looks like a .026 keypunch but seems to have suffered a bit, but still good for spares. If only they weren't the wrong side of the Atlantic or cost a bit less to ship. Are they really saying the keypunches only cost them 100 dollars each new (400 for 4 and 200 for 2)? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 01:15:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:15:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RS232 voltage level converter box In-Reply-To: <20081119114022.S80948@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 19, 8 11:47:58 am Message-ID: > According to doctor Marty, the Tandy portable disk drive is serial TTL > (He says that there are diodes and resistors inside the DB25 hood of the > "special" cable) Quite possibly. It was intended to be used with the M100 series only, IIRC, and those machines had RS232 receivers (1489s) that would accept TTL levels. I will admit that I've driven such RS232 ports directly from TTL outputs for quick kludges on my bench, but never for anything I expect to be used by others (I have no way of knowing what sort of port it is going to be linked to). I've seen several RS232 peripherals, including the Dowty Quattro modem I used to use (back when 2400 bps [1] was fast) which take RS232 signals, feed then through resistors straight into 74HCT inputs, relying on the protection diodes of said inputs to clamp the signal. It clearly works, but I don't like it, and would never do it myself. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 01:17:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:17:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sometimes you win, and sometrimes... In-Reply-To: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Nov 19, 8 09:57:12 pm Message-ID: > > ..you loose, like today, when I found out that on the, > literally, 7581 files I transferred between the Lilith > and my Linux box, each last byte has been corrupted..... Is there any pattern to the corruption? > > Sigh... > > Either the Linux or the Lilith Kermit must have had a bug. I've usde kermit under linux (albeit an ancient version) to transfer data to/from many other machines without problems. I would be suprised if the bug was that end. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 20 12:42:30 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:42:30 -0000 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm guessing Proteon was an independent company until DEC bought > them at some point? Did DEC ever buy Proteon? I was with DEC's network group (NAC) when we bought the rights to the Proteon code base (or at least some of it). Then Cabletron bought NAC. Some stuff went to EDS. Disks and tapes were sold off. Compaq bought what was left. HP bought Compaq and now has bought EDS. So lots of recycled stuff, but I don't think Proteon is in there anywhere. Antonio From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Nov 20 12:57:03 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:57:03 -0600 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'm guessing Proteon was an independent company until DEC bought >> them at some point? > >Did DEC ever buy Proteon? I was with DEC's network group (NAC) >when we bought the rights to the Proteon code base (or at least >some of it). That's how I remember it too. I was involved in that handoff at the time. I may have left before it came to fruition, but I don't remember that anything ever came of this. In other words, DEC paid Proteon $1M or so, got a pile of source code, and nothing was done with it. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 20 12:58:32 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:58:32 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation Message-ID: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> The avionics in there is probably enough to get the lot recalled. From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 20 12:59:50 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:59:50 +0000 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <200811201800.mAKI05bV017882@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <112020081859.10027.4925B3A6000351540000272B22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Sometimes those numbers can be the actual original cost.. More commonly they are simply random amounts that people plug in the forms when the items get processed for turn-in. the real issue with bidding on this would be the fact that the lot is 5000lbs and 15 triwall pallets -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Roger Holmes > > > From: Richard > > Subject: Re: keypunch equip on govliquidation > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > In article <112020081326.28067.49256593000ACD3500006DA322218865869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E03 > 9A089C at att.net > > >, > > shumaker at att.net writes: > > > >> large govliquidation lot auction opened today has two types of > >> keypunch consoles > > , one of which seems to be unused IBM equip. Photo shows it even > > has some docum > > entation. > >> > >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view? > >> id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 > >> > > > > That looks like the kind of keypunch we had at the University of > > Delaware > > around 1979/1980. I remember using them to duplicate punched cards > > just > > for the purpose of making confetti :). > > The earlier pictures are .029 keypunches which look to be in great > conditions. The next to last picture looks like a .026 keypunch but > seems to have suffered a bit, but still good for spares. If only they > weren't the wrong side of the Atlantic or cost a bit less to ship. Are > they really saying the keypunches only cost them 100 dollars each new > (400 for 4 and 200 for 2)? > From james at jdfogg.com Thu Nov 20 13:04:55 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:04:55 -0500 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals Message-ID: <4925b4d7.1f4.db0.318@jdfogg.com> > >> I'm guessing Proteon was an independent company until > DEC bought >> them at some point? > > > >Did DEC ever buy Proteon? I was with DEC's network group > (NAC) >when we bought the rights to the Proteon code base > (or at least >some of it). > > That's how I remember it too. I was involved in that > handoff at the time. > > I may have left before it came to fruition, but I don't > remember that anything ever came of this. In other words, > DEC paid Proteon $1M or so, got a pile of source code, and > nothing was done with it. At some point Proteon became part of Ascend. From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Nov 20 13:06:20 2008 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:06:20 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation Message-ID: <492544AC.16627.2284A4AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> Looks like the lot has 4 brand new 029s and two used machines, at least one of which is an 026. Somebody go get these! Or, do what I did in 2001 when a lot came up, and get a group together to buy them and divvy them up. These don't come along that often. Looks like there is some interesting old radar display gear in there too, which some military buffs would probably want. Are those scope hoods made of Bakelite? http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 There's a whole bunch of other stuff in the lot, but you can call the DRMO staff and see if they can either keep and relist the remainder, or give it to a surplus dealer. There are usually surplus dealers hanging around happy to haul off whatever doesn't sell or what gets abandoned. It's the logistics of shipping and dispersing the stuff that's painful. Looks like the four new 029s are crated, the 026(s) are sitting on pallets, and they'll have to be padded and strapped. In the 2001, I used freightquote.com and scheduled a pickup & had the units sent to the people in the group. FYI I just looked at the bills of lading, we listed the factory-crated 029's as 520 lbs each, and the 029s on pallets as 310 lbs each. At today's rates, you should be able to ship a palletized unit from Ohio to, say, California, with a liftgate delivery, for about $250, and a crated unit for about $350. I'd be interested to know on or off list what happens with these, punched card stuff is one of my areas of interest. Brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 13:06:27 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:06:27 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The avionics in there is probably enough to get the lot recalled. Exactly what I was thinking. Knowing the government, they will recall it a couple years after it gets purchased and shipped This is why nearly all surplus vendors - the exception being the guys that just scrap the stuff out for metal content - now avoid govliq. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 13:15:26 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:15:26 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <492544AC.16627.2284A4AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <492544AC.16627.2284A4AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: > I'd be interested to know on or off list what happens with these, > punched card stuff is one of my areas of interest. They will get recalled. Eventually. There are still PLENTY of nice 029 stations, and even a few 026 stations, kicking around and coming out of the woodwork. I am going to stay away (obviously!). If someone is really interested, I suggest you hook up with a surplus dealer that would be willing to sell you the stations after he gets all the rest for scrap. As usual, do not try to lowball a scrap man. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 13:19:13 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:19:13 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <112020081859.10027.4925B3A6000351540000272B22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> References: <200811201800.mAKI05bV017882@dewey.classiccmp.org> <112020081859.10027.4925B3A6000351540000272B22230647629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Message-ID: > Sometimes those numbers can be the actual original cost.. More commonly they are simply random amounts that people plug in the forms when the items get processed for turn-in. For more military-like items, they are actual values. The government has supply catalogs that are nothing more than huge price lists, down to nuts and bolts for a few cents each. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 20 13:48:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:48:50 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2008 at 14:06, William Donzelli wrote: > > The avionics in there is probably enough to get the lot recalled. > > Exactly what I was thinking. Knowing the government, they will recall > it a couple years after it gets purchased and shipped > > This is why nearly all surplus vendors - the exception being the guys > that just scrap the stuff out for metal content - now avoid govliq. Just curious--suppose a scrapper processes (renders) the sensitive stuff and the gummint asks for it back. What's the procedure then? Just a signed affadavit saying that the stuff is no more? If that is the case, who's going to check up on a collector who says that he scrapped the proscribed goodies? Not suborning perjury, just asking... Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 20 17:48:34 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:48:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org>, <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081120154728.I68107@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If that is the case, who's going to check up on a collector who says > that he scrapped the proscribed goodies? S'posedly that was done with some GM EV1's From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 20 18:38:37 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:38:37 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:58:32 -0800. <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4925B358.90600 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The avionics in there is probably enough to get the lot recalled. What avionics? The only thing I can see in the item listing that isn't COTS is this: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 20 18:40:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:40:33 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:06:20 -0800. <492544AC.16627.2284A4AA@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: In article <492544AC.16627.2284A4AA at brian.quarterbyte.com>, "Brian Knittel" writes: > It's the logistics of shipping and dispersing the stuff that's painful. > Looks like the four new 029s are crated, the 026(s) are sitting on > pallets, and they'll have to be padded and strapped. Picking this up, palletizing, padding, strapping and freight shipping this would be a no-brainer for Craters & Freighters of Columbus, OH: Craters & Freighters of Columbus Phone: 614-899-7340 Toll Free: 877-691-8344 Fax: 614-899-7532 columbus at cratersandfreighters.com -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 19:38:55 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:38:55 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Just curious--suppose a scrapper processes (renders) the sensitive > stuff and the gummint asks for it back. What's the procedure then? > Just a signed affadavit saying that the stuff is no more? It depends. If the scrapper pretty much is established as a scrapper on good terms with the government, generally that works. > If that is the case, who's going to check up on a collector who says > that he scrapped the proscribed goodies? Sometimes men with guns. Mostly just men in black Suburbans that might have guns. The government does send scouts out to surplus yards to check up on things. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 19:40:05 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:40:05 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > What avionics? The only thing I can see in the item listing that > isn't COTS is this: I saw something about Link in that bunch. I do not remember where exactly. It may have been thru the FSN search. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 19:41:36 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I saw something about Link in that bunch. I do not remember where > exactly. It may have been thru the FSN search. Also, remember that even COTS stuff can require EUCs and have export controls. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 20 20:35:59 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:35:59 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:41:36 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > I saw something about Link in that bunch. I do not remember where > > exactly. It may have been thru the FSN search. > > Also, remember that even COTS stuff can require EUCs and have export controls. Yep. I've had to fill out EUCs for HP 1351A graphics generators. Some of the stuff I understand why there's all the red tape, but other stuff just seems like a huge waste of taxpayer money to be imposing all that red tape. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 20:38:35 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:38:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/E H724 power supply and serial interface In-Reply-To: <492224E5.9060408@hachti.de> References: <4921A8A3.8030905@dunnington.plus.com> <492224E5.9060408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <624966d60811201838w72590a5cwe79a5d65a08b3cd1@mail.gmail.com> A few people on the list cleaned me out of my extra 8K stacks, but I still, have 8 or 10 4K stacks. If anyone is interested please feel free to contact me off list. {aul On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Pete, > > I'm also lacking any serial interface for this machine. I do have some >> other spare boards; is anyone (especially in the UK) interested in a trade? >> > I have some serial spares. > > Would trade anything for omnibus core memory! > How much core do you have? > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) > > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 20 20:55:46 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:55:46 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Tektronix 401x keycaps/keyboard (+ 4051 keycap) Message-ID: I have a 4010 that is missing the keys '1', '3' and 'ESC'. The '1' key has a chipped mounting post for the keycap as well. I'm looking for replacement keycaps and/or a replacement keyboard. I also have a 4051 that is missing a single key off the numeric keypad on the right. It is labelled 'ENTER EXP'. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 20 22:06:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:06:14 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: <4925B358.90600@bitsavers.org>, <49254EA2.11243.1899DCC0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4925C336.19448.1A61329A@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2008 at 20:38, William Donzelli wrote: > Sometimes men with guns. Mostly just men in black Suburbans that might > have guns. Suburbans have guns? Is that a special government RFQ thing? Oh well, it probably doesn't matter as next year those will be Honda Elements, most likely. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 21 00:16:13 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: FFS: UniPlus UNIX manual set Message-ID: The person who previously claimed the UniPlus UNIX manual set can't be reached. Next person who emails me on this gets it for postage. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 00:42:01 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:42:01 -0800 Subject: FFS: UniPlus UNIX manual set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Was that me? I apologize, I have been dealing with a family issue. I certainly didn't mean to drop the ball on this one. Mark On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > The person who previously claimed the UniPlus UNIX manual set can't be > reached. Next person who emails me on this gets it for postage. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 21 01:07:29 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:07:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: FFS: UniPlus UNIX manual set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2008, David Griffith wrote: > The person who previously claimed the UniPlus UNIX manual set can't be > reached. Next person who emails me on this gets it for postage. The manuals have been claimed. Thanks! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Nov 21 13:02:17 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:02:17 +0000 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <200811211800.mALI0C0D035022@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811211800.mALI0C0D035022@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3151203C-AA22-42D4-B8A7-45B78800FB44@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Brian Knittel" > > Looks like the lot has 4 brand new 029s and two used machines, at > least > one of which is an 026. Somebody go get these! Or, do what I did in > 2001 when a lot came up, and get a group together to buy them and > divvy > them up. These don't come along that often. > > Looks like there is some interesting old radar display gear in there > too, which some military buffs would probably want. Are those > scope hoods made of Bakelite? > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2037010&categoryId=c7149 > > There's a whole bunch of other stuff in the lot, but you can call the > DRMO staff and see if they can either keep and relist the remainder, > or > give it to a surplus dealer. There are usually surplus dealers hanging > around happy to haul off whatever doesn't sell or what gets abandoned. > > It's the logistics of shipping and dispersing the stuff that's > painful. > Looks like the four new 029s are crated, the 026(s) are sitting on > pallets, and they'll have to be padded and strapped. > > In the 2001, I used freightquote.com and scheduled a pickup & had the > units sent to the people in the group. FYI I just looked at the bills > of lading, we listed the factory-crated 029's as 520 lbs each, and the > 029s on pallets as 310 lbs each. At today's rates, you should be able > to ship a palletized unit from Ohio to, say, California, with a > liftgate delivery, for about $250, and a crated unit for about $350. > > I'd be interested to know on or off list what happens with these, > punched card stuff is one of my areas of interest. > > Brian If by chance you get a group together who want to do a group purchase with a scrap dealer, I would be very interested. I'm not likely to ever find another .029 in as new condition, presumably with the program drum which I've been outbid at silly money on eBay. Ohio to California is quite a long way, so maybe 2 or three times as much for shipping across the Atlantic, would be worthwhile for an AS NEW one, but not for spares. As long as it can work on 50Hz mains frequency, voltage no problem. I would also be very interested in an old control drum if there's one in the .026 and it gets scrapped. The printing mechanism too maybe if its not too difficult to remove. My alternatives are to restore my IBM 836 keypunch (like an 026 but with more bells and whistles) or to resurrect a spare online punch and interface it to my Mac. This will take many hours of effort, though it would also get me a fairly slow card reader. The mechanism is an IBM design made under licence by British Tabulating Machine Co (BTM) and its successor company, International Computers and Tabulators (ICT), the main mechanism of which seems identical to the one on the IBM 1401 restoration web site. Old keypunches just don't seem to come up any more in the UK. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 21 13:19:30 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:19:30 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation Message-ID: <492709C2.7040800@bitsavers.org> > What avionics? picture #34 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 21 13:26:40 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:26:40 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:19:30 -0800. <492709C2.7040800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <492709C2.7040800 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > What avionics? > > picture #34 Seems like a simple display to me, but yeah, that was what I was referring to as the only thing that didn't seem COTS in the lot. Still, its the gummint we're talking about, so common sense will not enter the picture. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 21 13:43:44 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:43:44 -0600 Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" In-Reply-To: <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> References: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20081121133834.07d460c0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:39 PM 11/18/2008, you wrote: >Pontus wrote: >>A member of the vintage-computer forum is looking for a "Creative Game >>Blaster Card": >>http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9158/creativegameblasterct13wn1.jpg >>If you have one, maybe I can hook you guys up? > >I normally don't toss around the term "rare", but that card is rare. It was Creative's original competitor to the Adlib and was marketed as such (Creative Music System, as the Adlib was originally marketed as a music card and not a gaming card). A better pic: http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/vega/reviews/dzwiek/soundcard_roundup/antyki_creative_gb_20_d.jpg There was an Amiga software publisher named Brown-Waugh who diversified by being the sole US distributor of the then-little-known Creative Labs. - John From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Nov 22 12:50:51 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:50:51 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811221350.51596.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 20 November 2008, Richard wrote: > Picking this up, palletizing, padding, strapping and freight shipping > this would be a no-brainer for Craters & Freighters of Columbus, OH: > > Craters & Freighters of Columbus > Phone: 614-899-7340 > Toll Free: 877-691-8344 > Fax: 614-899-7532 > columbus at cratersandfreighters.com > Dammit, can you stop with the damn C&F ads already? I know you like them, but this is annoying. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 14:51:54 2008 From: generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:51:54 -0800 Subject: looking for a few items Message-ID: old IBM terminals. Instead of me being very specific, just tell me what you have. I don't come by that many, neither do you probably. 2 (at least) full height IBM floppy drives. Atari ST equipment. Non working considered. interested in a nice IBM 5151 monochrome monitor. Have one, but it has considerable screen burn. Thanks. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 22 16:22:47 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:22:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: MTPUG Message-ID: I found a business card in a package of Pascal / MT+ for CP/M-86: MTPUG Pascal/MT Users Group Quarterly Newsletter with fixes, hints, programs, reviews. User contributed program disks in 5" and 8" formats. Below that are two addresses. One for a Guenter Musstopf in Ahrensburg in West Germany and for Henry Lucas in Westmont, IL in the USA. Does anyone know anything interesting about this newsletter? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 22 16:58:42 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:58:42 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:50:51 -0500. <200811221350.51596.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200811221350.51596.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Thursday 20 November 2008, Richard wrote: > > Picking this up, palletizing, padding, strapping and freight shipping > > this would be a no-brainer for Craters & Freighters of Columbus, OH: > > > > Craters & Freighters of Columbus > > Phone: 614-899-7340 > > Toll Free: 877-691-8344 > > Fax: 614-899-7532 > > columbus at cratersandfreighters.com > > > > Dammit, can you stop with the damn C&F ads already? I know you like > them, but this is annoying. If you don't like it, delete it. Every time I've used C&F the service has been exceptional. Every time I've used someone else, they've fucked up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 22 19:50:14 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:50:14 -0500 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:58:42 MST.) References: Message-ID: <200811230150.mAN1oEfV026525@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Dammit, can you stop with the damn C&F ads already? I know you like > > them, but this is annoying. > If you don't like it, delete it. Every time I've used C&F the service > has been exceptional. Every time I've used someone else, they've fucked > up. Pat's right, it's getting tiresome. Now you're promoting them even before someone asks for a suggestion. Maybe you ought to disclose your business relationship with them. De From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 22 20:21:45 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:21:45 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:50:14 -0500. <200811230150.mAN1oEfV026525@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200811230150.mAN1oEfV026525 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > > > Dammit, can you stop with the damn C&F ads already? I know you like > > > them, but this is annoying. > > > If you don't like it, delete it. Every time I've used C&F the service > > has been exceptional. Every time I've used someone else, they've fucked > > up. > > Pat's right, it's getting tiresome. Now you're promoting them even > before someone asks for a suggestion. Maybe you ought to disclose your > business relationship with them. I'm a very satisfied customer, there is no "business relationship" other than that. The question was how to get these keypunch machines packaged and shipped -- my answer is to use C&F. If you don't like me recommending a company that has provided me excellent service, while all their competitors have screwed up, then that's youre problem, not mine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Nov 22 22:34:29 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:34:29 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <248755E6-61CF-4F77-96AF-79ACD8138F09@shiresoft.com> On Nov 22, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <200811230150.mAN1oEfV026525 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, > Dennis Boone writes: > >>>> Dammit, can you stop with the damn C&F ads already? I know you >>>> like >>>> them, but this is annoying. >> >>> If you don't like it, delete it. Every time I've used C&F the >>> service >>> has been exceptional. Every time I've used someone else, they've >>> fucked >>> up. >> >> Pat's right, it's getting tiresome. Now you're promoting them even >> before someone asks for a suggestion. Maybe you ought to disclose >> your >> business relationship with them. > > I'm a very satisfied customer, there is no "business relationship" > other than that. The question was how to get these keypunch machines > packaged and shipped -- my answer is to use C&F. > > If you don't like me recommending a company that has provided me > excellent service, while all their competitors have screwed up, then > that's youre problem, not mine. No Richard, the problem that people have is with you pimping them at every opportunity and denigrating their competitors. Many of us have used various shipping services that as you have intimated in the past as incompetent (or worse). The first is, if they were truly as bad as you say then they'd be out of business. Secondly, many of have used them and shipped tons (literally) - I personally have used the "competition" several dozen times totaling over 20,000lbs of gear with no problems. We're all sorry that some of your shipments haven't worked out as you'd have liked - it happens. That's what insurance is for. Get over it. If you want to recommend C&F fine. A simple statement like "I've used C&F in the past with no problems. I highly recommend them." is all that's needed - full stop. Your sig line says "Legalize Adulthood". Start acting like one! TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 22 23:13:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:13:10 -0700 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:34:29 -0800. <248755E6-61CF-4F77-96AF-79ACD8138F09@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <248755E6-61CF-4F77-96AF-79ACD8138F09 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > No Richard, the problem that people have is with you pimping them at > every opportunity and denigrating their competitors. If their competitors gave me good service, I would tout their ability to deliver good service. The fact is that they haven't, so I don't. The service I've gotten from their competitors, even ones that other people have recommended on this list, has been substandard and inferior, and on one occasion to the point of outright fraud. If you don't like it, then delete my messages. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 22 23:13:10 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:13:10 -0500 Subject: Hard disk material Message-ID: It looks like sometime in the future I may need to rebuild a damaged magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be too deep. As a brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the surface. If I use refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer (glue)? What was typically used on early hard disk platters and drums? -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 23 09:52:36 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:52:36 +0000 Subject: http://www.series80.org/ dead ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49297C44.2060801@philpem.me.uk> Rik Bos wrote: > Does anyone knows what happened with the site http://www.series80.org/ > It appears to be dead.. > > -Rik Works for me. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Nov 23 10:16:04 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:16:04 +0100 Subject: http://www.series80.org/ dead ? In-Reply-To: <49297C44.2060801@philpem.me.uk> References: <49297C44.2060801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6AFD9AF420B340EC82C1B4622C79EEC8@xp1800> Rik Bos wrote: > Does anyone knows what happened with the site http://www.series80.org/ > It appears to be dead.. > > -Rik >Works for me. >-- >Phil. For me to now, but not when I posted this... It was gone for a week or so. Thanks -Rik From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 11:20:30 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a (working) PDP 8 system :) Message-ID: <647637.95839.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> With all this talk on PDP 8's thought I'd throw my hat in the ring :) If anyone has a working PDP 8 system for sale, either in the UK/Europe or USA (West Coast) let me know. Preferably this would have a disk unit of some kind, and must be known working with terminal access. Good price paid and will collect. Thanks Ian. From js at cimmeri.com Sun Nov 23 12:11:55 2008 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:11:55 -0500 Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? In-Reply-To: <200811231800.mANI0ZUJ064252@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811231800.mANI0ZUJ064252@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49299CEB.2030204@cimmeri.com> Are DEC Letterprinter 100's in nice, working, non-noticeably-yellowed condition worth anything at present? Or are they pretty much recycling fodder? Thanks, JS From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 12:30:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:30:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <248755E6-61CF-4F77-96AF-79ACD8138F09@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Nov 22, 8 08:34:29 pm Message-ID: [...] > We're all sorry that some of your shipments haven't worked out as > you'd have liked - it happens. That's what insurance is for. Get > over it. I have never used C&F, I probably never will, so I can't comment on that part of the discussion. But, I disagree with 'That's what insurance is for'. As I have said several times 'You can't hack banknotes'. You may have spent a lot of time and effort tracking down a vintage machine, and having the purchase cost refunded (which realisitcally is all insurance is going to cover) doesn't help. You can't go and buy another one. In several cases the item I've bought is the _only example_ I've seen before or since. -tony From auringer at tds.net Sun Nov 23 13:19:12 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:19:12 -0600 Subject: VAX field maintenance print sets Message-ID: <20081123131913.QQQK4.33894.root@webfep14> Hi all, While cleaning, I have come across the following field maintenance print sets. I am inclined to dump them in the recycle bin, unless someone _really_ wants them. The total weight is about 22lbs from Madison, WI. All are "B" size (11x17") - UNIT ASSEMBLY 11780 (3" worth) KU780 (2) 11780 MEMORY ASSY TAPE DRIVE TU78 TEE16 SYSTEM MAGNETIC TAPE DRIVE TE16 H9206-M EXPANDER CAB If interested, reply soon. Jon Jon Auringer auringer at tds.net From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 13:28:32 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:28:32 -0600 Subject: VAX field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <20081123131913.QQQK4.33894.root@webfep14> References: <20081123131913.QQQK4.33894.root@webfep14> Message-ID: <51ea77730811231128s72a98d26p39318d6a0dd7efe1@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Jon Auringer wrote: > Hi all, > > While cleaning, I have come across the following field maintenance print sets. I am inclined to dump them in the recycle bin, unless someone _really_ wants them. The total weight is about 22lbs from Madison, WI. Does anyone know if these are already scanned? If not, I may be convinced to rescue them and attempt to do the scanning, at least if they are sheet feeder-friendly. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 23 14:00:17 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:00:17 -0800 Subject: VAX field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <20081123131913.QQQK4.33894.root@webfep14> References: <20081123131913.QQQK4.33894.root@webfep14> Message-ID: <7D0E3676-A30F-405E-AF4B-B37B21F35BA9@shiresoft.com> Where are you located? I'm willing to have them shipped. TTFN - Guy On Nov 23, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Jon Auringer wrote: > Hi all, > > While cleaning, I have come across the following field maintenance > print sets. I am inclined to dump them in the recycle bin, unless > someone _really_ wants them. The total weight is about 22lbs from > Madison, WI. > > All are "B" size (11x17") - > > UNIT ASSEMBLY 11780 (3" worth) > KU780 > (2) 11780 MEMORY ASSY > TAPE DRIVE TU78 > TEE16 SYSTEM > MAGNETIC TAPE DRIVE TE16 > H9206-M EXPANDER CAB > > If interested, reply soon. > > Jon > > Jon Auringer > auringer at tds.net > From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun Nov 23 14:01:03 2008 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:01:03 +0000 Subject: Interdata Model 74 Message-ID: <1227470463.17872.18.camel@spasmo> Hi, A couple of years ago I bought an Interdata Model 74 CPU and I'm pondering what to do with it. I'm leaning towards rebuilding it to working condition next year and I was wondering if there are any other Interdata owners out there? The machine is in generally good condition, although I have has no power supply with it so will need to find or build something suitable. Unfortunately I have no documentation and so if anyone has any engineering documentation for these machines it would be a great help. Bitsavers has some details on the Model 70. Does anyone know how similar the Model 74 is to the 70? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From toby at coreware.co.uk Sun Nov 23 14:05:54 2008 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:05:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for a (working) PDP 8 system :) In-Reply-To: <647637.95839.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <647637.95839.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1227470754.17872.24.camel@spasmo> Hi, You might want to look at the two that are for sale on ebay at the moment: http://cgi.ebay.com/DEC-PDP8E-2-sets-of-CORE-MEMORY-MINT-COMPLETE-UNIT_W0QQitemZ180307187903QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item180307187903&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 and http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Electronics-Corp-DEC-pdp-8a-System-pdp-c-1975_W0QQitemZ310100861012QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item310100861012&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 Neither have disks, but you should be able to locate an RX8 interface with a bit of hunting and then can either search out an RX01/02 drive or build an RX emulator (hooks up to a PC's printer port) Thanks, Toby On Sun, 2008-11-23 at 09:20 -0800, silvercreekvalley wrote: > With all this talk on PDP 8's thought I'd throw my > hat in the ring :) > > If anyone has a working PDP 8 system for sale, either > in the UK/Europe or USA (West Coast) let me know. > > Preferably this would have a disk unit of some kind, > and must be known working with terminal access. > > Good price paid and will collect. > > Thanks > > Ian. > > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 23 14:07:15 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:07:15 -0800 Subject: keypunch equip on govliquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19FEC0F8-423E-411A-B7E0-F0D96136D50A@shiresoft.com> On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > >> We're all sorry that some of your shipments haven't worked out as >> you'd have liked - it happens. That's what insurance is for. Get >> over it. > > I have never used C&F, I probably never will, so I can't comment on > that > part of the discussion. But, I disagree with 'That's what insurance is > for'. As I have said several times 'You can't hack banknotes'. You may > have spent a lot of time and effort tracking down a vintage machine, > and > having the purchase cost refunded (which realisitcally is all > insurance > is going to cover) doesn't help. You can't go and buy another one. In > several cases the item I've bought is the _only example_ I've seen > before > or since. > I agree somewhat with your sentiments in that insurance can never replace the object. It doesn't just apply to classic computing but anything that has personal value (family photos, keepsakes, etc) and cannot reasonably be replaced. However, I have been successful in getting insurance coverage for what *I* think it's worth (every time I've shipped a classic computer, the shipper has asked me for an amount I want to insure it for - depending upon the item it's been for a lot more than I paid for it). Fortunately I've never had to use it. However, it is factored into the shipping costs. TTFN - Guy From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Nov 23 14:08:35 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:08:35 -0000 Subject: VAX field maintenance print sets In-Reply-To: <51ea77730811231128s72a98d26p39318d6a0dd7efe1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason T wrote: > On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Jon Auringer > wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> While cleaning, I have come across the following field maintenance >> print sets. I am inclined to dump them in the recycle bin, unless >> someone _really_ wants them. The total weight is about 22lbs from >> Madison, WI. > > Does anyone know if these are already scanned? If not, I may be > convinced to rescue them and attempt to do the scanning, at least if > they are sheet feeder-friendly. Given the MPxxxx numbers it should be really easy to check whether they're already scanned by looking at http://vt100.net/manx. FWIW: I don't see any sign of a KU780 or H9206 at all. As for the others, you'd at least want to check that the MP number matches and probably the rev too. I'd want them but shipping to the UK would be prohibitive. I'm sure someone in the US will pipe up and ask for them whether they're scanned or not ...). Antonio From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 14:29:27 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:29:27 -0500 Subject: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) Message-ID: <4affc5e0811231229n67841d32q5658e6b4b231e27c@mail.gmail.com> Hello, in an ongoing effort to thin out my collection, I've decided to sell or exchange some old HP bits that I'm sure are more useful to other members of this list. They should probably go to the same person, though the latter might be useful to some HP41 owner, too :-) HP-75D, with power supply, 8k ram pack, about 16 magnetic strips and one abrasive cleaning strip, and I/O Rom. I only have the manual for the I/O ROM, and the June 1983 issue of the HP Journal; that is the only "manual" I have for the 75D. I don't have the battery pack, I did at some point, but can't find it anymore. Some cells were dead, anyways - I think I kept the plastic parts, but it may be lost. It's fully functional (on AC power), but looks used (of course). Two of the feet pads are missing. I also have the 82164A HP-IL/RS-232C Interface, with power supply and manual, but I never had any HP-IL cables, so I could never test it :-( This one looks as if it came just out of the shipping box. I'd be happy to trade for a more modern HP calc (HP48SX or better) or interesting MIDI gear - otherwise I'm open to offers. Pic at http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/IMG_1916.jpg Oh, I also have an HP Omnibook 600C (working except the left mouse button) that I'm trying to let go. I'm in Montreal, Canada. Joe. --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 14:35:57 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:35:57 -0500 Subject: TRS80 on craigs in Montreal Message-ID: <4affc5e0811231235o15ea63f7s97af126d5b36c4a8@mail.gmail.com> I just saw this on Craig's; I have no connection to the seller. http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/sys/930932281.html (I do have some TRS-80 manuals for cost of shipping to give away though... contact me off-list for details if needed) Joe. --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Nov 23 14:41:26 2008 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:41:26 -0000 Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? References: <200811231800.mANI0ZUJ064252@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49299CEB.2030204@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <6997D21B91454D11AEF5AE02E3602DEF@XPBOX> From: > > Are DEC Letterprinter 100's in nice, working, non-noticeably-yellowed > condition worth anything at present? Or are they pretty much recycling > fodder? Don't know if they are worth anything, I've never had to pay for one - they just keep arriving here! They are useful though, as they correctly emulate a Teletype and allow overprinting, which most modern printers don't, but I suppose that's only useful if you have an interest in ASCII art! Jim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 23 15:27:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:27:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? In-Reply-To: <6997D21B91454D11AEF5AE02E3602DEF@XPBOX> from "Jim Beacon" at Nov 23, 8 08:41:26 pm Message-ID: > > > From: > > > > > Are DEC Letterprinter 100's in nice, working, non-noticeably-yellowed > > condition worth anything at present? Or are they pretty much recycling > > fodder? > > Don't know if they are worth anything, I've never had to pay for one - they > just keep arriving here! I have no idea what they're worth either. I was given a couple with my 11/730 system... IIRC the Letterprinter is the RO (no keyboard) model, the Letterwriter is the KSR (with keyboard) one. > They are useful though, as they correctly emulate a Teletype and allow > overprinting, which most modern printers don't, but I suppose that's only > useful if you have an interest in ASCII art! It's a 9 pin dot-matrix head which is tilted mechanically (a pair of solenoids shuttling a shaped core to and fro inside the carriage) to give 18 pin resolution in 2 passes. I find them interesting because of that curious mechanism. -tony From auringer at tds.net Sun Nov 23 15:37:57 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:37:57 -0600 Subject: Interlan ethernet transceiver units available Message-ID: <20081123153757.ZH7D1.35768.root@webfep14> More stuff uncovered. I have several (~5, actually) Interlan NT10 transceivers to dispose of. These clamp on to coaxial backbone ethernet cables and pierce the jacket (vampire tap) to make a connection. They have an AUI port to connect your equipment to. If you are interested in them, make me an offer for my time to box them up and take them to a shipper. If there is no interest, they will get recycled. I am still in Madison Wi. 53714 Jon Jon Auringer auringer at tds.net From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:40:31 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:40:31 -0600 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > It looks like sometime in the future I may need to rebuild a damaged > magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be too deep. As a > brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the surface. If I use > refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer (glue)? What was > typically used on early hard disk platters and drums? Seriously? Do keep us posted... far as I know, it's not something that anyone's ever tried before - it'd be interesting to know how you get on. I'm not even sure how you could coat a drum in glue / oxide and get it of uniform thickness without specialist tooling. I've heard of low-speed, low-capacity homebrew drums before, but it sounds like you're hoping to rebuild a commercial one... cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 23 20:21:08 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:21:08 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492A0F95.A09F5FB9@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > William Donzelli wrote: > > It looks like sometime in the future I may need to rebuild a damaged > > magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be too deep. As a > > brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the surface. If I use > > refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer (glue)? What was > > typically used on early hard disk platters and drums? > > Seriously? Do keep us posted... far as I know, it's not something that > anyone's ever tried before - it'd be interesting to know how you get on. I'm > not even sure how you could coat a drum in glue / oxide and get it of uniform > thickness without specialist tooling. > > I've heard of low-speed, low-capacity homebrew drums before, but it sounds > like you're hoping to rebuild a commercial one... Weren't drums and early disks done with nickel or some-such plating, rather than binder & oxide? Of course, getting a uniform thickness of plating requires careful attention as well (spoken having had bitter experience with such). From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 23 21:49:17 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:49:17 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <492A0F95.A09F5FB9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> <492A0F95.A09F5FB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <492A243D.2050403@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Weren't drums and early disks done with nickel or some-such plating, rather > than binder & oxide? > Nickel plating would definitely not work. Some of the earliest drums used cunife (copper/nickel/iron alloy) wire tightly wound around an aluminum cylinder, then turned on a lathe to get a flat surface. Some drums included magnesium, cobalt, or other metals in the alloy. Later drums used various coating methods rather than wire. From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Nov 23 22:32:48 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:32:48 -0800 Subject: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0811231229n67841d32q5658e6b4b231e27c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0811231229n67841d32q5658e6b4b231e27c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann [joachim.thiemann at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:29 PM To: CCTalk Subject: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) Hello, in an ongoing effort to thin out my collection, I've decided to sell or exchange some old HP bits that I'm sure are more useful to other members of this list. They should probably go to the same person, though the latter might be useful to some HP41 owner, too :-) HP-75D, with power supply, 8k ram pack, about 16 magnetic strips and one abrasive cleaning strip, and I/O Rom. I only have the manual for the I/O ROM, and the June 1983 issue of the HP Journal; that is the only "manual" I have for the 75D. I don't have the battery pack, I did at some point, but can't find it anymore. Some cells were dead, anyways - I think I kept the plastic parts, but it may be lost. It's fully functional (on AC power), but looks used (of course). Two of the feet pads are missing. I also have the 82164A HP-IL/RS-232C Interface, with power supply and manual, but I never had any HP-IL cables, so I could never test it :-( This one looks as if it came just out of the shipping box. I'd be happy to trade for a more modern HP calc (HP48SX or better) or interesting MIDI gear - otherwise I'm open to offers. Pic at http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/IMG_1916.jpg Oh, I also have an HP Omnibook 600C (working except the left mouse button) that I'm trying to let go. I'm in Montreal, Canada. Joe. --- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 23 22:36:34 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:36:34 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> <492A0F95.A09F5FB9@cs.ubc.ca> <492A243D.2050403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <492A2F52.FDD69FE@cs.ubc.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Weren't drums and early disks done with nickel or some-such plating, rather > > than binder & oxide? > > > Nickel plating would definitely not work. Some of the earliest drums > used cunife (copper/nickel/iron alloy) wire tightly wound around an > aluminum cylinder, then turned on a lathe to get a flat surface. Some > drums included magnesium, cobalt, or other metals in the alloy. Later > drums used various coating methods rather than wire. (Yes, I missed including the word 'alloy' in there.) From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Nov 23 22:34:47 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:34:47 -0800 Subject: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e0811231229n67841d32q5658e6b4b231e27c@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: Sorry, all - my PowerBook was being pokey and I ended up hitting 'Reply' followed promptly by 'Send'.... ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King [IanK at vulcan.com] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann [joachim.thiemann at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:29 PM To: CCTalk Subject: FS or FT: HP75D and 82164A (HP-IL/RS-232C Interface) [snip] From alec at sensi.org Mon Nov 24 01:33:01 2008 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:33:01 +0300 Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081121133834.07d460c0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20081121133834.07d460c0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0811232333u71f70461t56c0cfd8e2fe761c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/21 John Foust : > A better pic: > > http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/vega/reviews/dzwiek/soundcard_roundup/antyki_creative_gb_20_d.jpg Could you please add a "free" photo to Wikipedia ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_blaster P.S. The oldest card I have is a Sound Blaster Pro v2 (last 8-bit). Photo is mine :) -- -=AV=- From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 09:59:05 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:59:05 -0600 Subject: Offer: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Card "collection" In-Reply-To: <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> References: <20081116.025836.9991.4@webmail21.vgs.untd.com> <492341A5.6090703@update.uu.se> <49238A8C.30106@oldskool.org> Message-ID: holy crap I think i have one of those somewhere in my junk from salvaging old machines....where it is though, no idea. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Pontus wrote: >> >> A member of the vintage-computer forum is looking for a "Creative Game >> Blaster Card": >> >> http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9158/creativegameblasterct13wn1.jpg >> >> If you have one, maybe I can hook you guys up? > > I normally don't toss around the term "rare", but that card is rare. It was > Creative's original competitor to the Adlib and was marketed as such > (Creative Music System, as the Adlib was originally marketed as a music card > and not a gaming card). Radio Shack realized it might sell better as a > gaming card and sold it as the Game Blaster with a bundled game that > supported it, and a year later Creative finally realized that the best way > to compete with Adlib was to completely plagiarize it as the Sound Blaster. > > As for what it could do, it is two Phillips SAA1099 chips ganged together to > produce 12 stereo sine waves with two noise channels. Compared to the > 2-operator FM synthesis of Adlib, it was a complete joke. Imagine the > cacophony of four PCjrs squawking in stereo and you've got a good idea of > what the CMS sounded like. > > Original Sound Blasters are uncommon; the Creative Music System/Game Blaster > card is rare. I have one of each release including packaging; it took me > over 1.5 decades to get them. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 01:45:19 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:45:19 -0600 Subject: anybody have any IBM 8525's? Message-ID: hello, Im trying to find one of those all-in-one PS/2 computers that IBM had in the late 80s, some were under the "EDUQUEST" badging, but most were the all-in-one 8525, and for some reason those who are selling on ebay think they have one of the rarest machines in the world and charge as so, and it really makes me regret not grabbing one from the salvage pile when they dumped all the ones in 99 when i was in middle school. anyway, does anyone have one they are willing to part with, or know of a cheap source of them? thanks -Joe From chrish at precisionmetrology.com Thu Nov 20 12:37:46 2008 From: chrish at precisionmetrology.com (chrish) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:37:46 -0600 Subject: Nicolet manuals and software Message-ID: <12D57F0223074F3F8238C21C712B4B10@pm1.local> Mr. Joe R., I am a manager for a calibration company and ran across your web page stating that you have several old Nicolet manuals. When I clicked on your link for them it told me that this was an invalid link. I am curious if you have a manual for a Nicolet Integra 20 Oscilloscope. I am looking for calibration information and having a hard time finding it online due to the age of this equipment. Can you help me out? My Regards, Chris Henley Lab Manager Precision Metrology, Inc. Phone: (414) 351-7420 Fax: (414) 351-7429 chrish at precisionmetrology.com From mfontes at charter.net Sat Nov 22 10:36:59 2008 From: mfontes at charter.net (mfontes) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:36:59 -0500 Subject: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? Message-ID: Joe, I was just looking up the TIL306 part and found your question. I know it is old but thought I would respond. I actually have 9 in original condition. They have never been installed in anything. If you need them let me know. Sincerely, Mike Fontes mfontes at charter.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 12:44:46 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:44:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <974148.98102.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> wild guess - the binder is some sort of expensive epoxy material. How are you going to apply the rust? With a airbrush? You'll need some sort of mechanism to insure it gets applied evenly (i.e uniform thickness), no? You'll also need something similar to apply the *epoxy* - that would have to go on uniformly also. The distance between the read head and the platter is measured in microns, no? there was a discussion on homemade cleanrooms a while back. Has anyone successfully built and implemented one? --- On Sun, 11/23/08, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Hard disk material > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 12:13 AM > It looks like sometime in the future I may need to rebuild a > damaged > magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be too deep. > As a > brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the surface. If > I use > refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer (glue)? > What was > typically used on early hard disk platters and drums? > > -- > Will From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 23 17:08:26 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:08:26 -0500 Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? Message-ID: <0KAT00HNH6W9POAE@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 21:27:30 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> From: >> >> > >> > Are DEC Letterprinter 100's in nice, working, non-noticeably-yellowed >> > condition worth anything at present? Or are they pretty much recycling >> > fodder? >> >> Don't know if they are worth anything, I've never had to pay for one - they >> just keep arriving here! > >I have no idea what they're worth either. I was given a couple with my >11/730 system... IIRC the Letterprinter is the RO (no keyboard) model, >the Letterwriter is the KSR (with keyboard) one. > >> They are useful though, as they correctly emulate a Teletype and allow >> overprinting, which most modern printers don't, but I suppose that's only >> useful if you have an interest in ASCII art! > >It's a 9 pin dot-matrix head which is tilted mechanically (a pair of >solenoids shuttling a shaped core to and fro inside the carriage) to give >18 pin resolution in 2 passes. I find them interesting because of that >curious mechanism. > >-tony I have two LA100ro as they proved in the field to be rugged and I got to see that from the point of view of DEC printers engineering. The curious approach to "18pin" printing was twofold. One was to allow fast draft quality printing and the other was rugged high quality printing that could still punch multipart forms with a known reliable head. At that time there were a few 18 pin heads but they didn't have the long term life at sustained high print rates. Note, this is a 1984-5 design so understand that many printers at that time were of smaller or less rugged style or really imposing printers. The LA100RO is most valuable to businesses that still used wide pinfed (assuming you have the forms tractor) multipart forms. In the high quality mode it does print decently and the graphics printing is not as slow as some dot matrix were. Allison From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Nov 24 03:35:45 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:35:45 -0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <53D8C7880037496B82A348F2611690EB@FLEXPC> I tripped over this page (discussing Max Burnett's collection): http://www.acs.org.au/ictcareers/index.cfm?action=show&conID=max and this part confused me: "A local Intel executive recently found his family tree on a 5in floppy, but even in the citadel of chip development, anything that could read the disk had long since gone for scrap. "A couple of clicks" and Max had it back on a modern floppy" Was there a 5" floppy format? I wouldn't be surprised to find out yet another format that I've never come across before, but I don't recall it cropping up here. (BTW: What's a "modern floppy" these days - one of those shint 8cm things maybe :-) ? ) Antonio From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 07:00:32 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:00:32 -0500 Subject: Ethan thawing Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ethan Dicks Date: Nov 24, 2008 12:54 AM Subject: Can you make a cctalk posting for me? Hi, Will, I'm in NZ now, and I managed to easily disconnect my USAP subscription, but my request to add from gmail hasn't gone through yet. So could you do me a favor and mention on the list that I'm in Christchurch for a few weeks and would enjoy the opportunity to meet with anyone on the list who's in town to talk about computers, etc. Just have them contact me at this address. I check it frequently. Thanks, -ethan From robo58 at optonline.net Mon Nov 24 09:26:31 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:26:31 -0500 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> This weekend I was trying to get an old CPM system running with via its 8" floppy disks. After troubleshooting it I found that the disk drive cabinet contained a Shugart SA801 Drive with a 230v 50/60 cycle Reaction Motor (capacitor start). I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. Thanks Robo From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 24 09:34:57 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:34:57 -0500 Subject: anybody have any IBM 8525's? Message-ID: <01C94E20.4D0716C0@host-208-72-122-152.dyn.295.ca> ----------Original Message: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:45:19 -0600 From: "joe lobocki" Subject: anybody have any IBM 8525's? hello, Im trying to find one of those all-in-one PS/2 computers that IBM had in the late 80s, some were under the "EDUQUEST" badging, but most were the all-in-one 8525, and for some reason those who are selling on ebay think they have one of the rarest machines in the world and charge as so, and it really makes me regret not grabbing one from the salvage pile when they dumped all the ones in 99 when i was in middle school. anyway, does anyone have one they are willing to part with, or know of a cheap source of them? thanks -Joe -----------Reply: You might have more luck if you ask on the Vintage Computer Forum (vintage-computer.com) Several hundred EDUQUESTs around, but don't know which model. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 24 09:41:13 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:41:13 -0500 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've heard of low-speed, low-capacity homebrew drums before You have? Please tell me more? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 24 09:49:11 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:49:11 -0500 Subject: Introduction to Programming the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4924DEC8.40006@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2008, at 1:11 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: > I've listed this book on eBay, someone on the list may be > interested (it's way outta line for my Commodore collecting :) ) > > Written in 1973 by DEC > > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=110313070356 I had a nice chat via email with the author of that book, Dave Symmes, early this year. He's a very nice guy. And he wrote a damn fine book! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 10:25:38 2008 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:25:38 -0700 Subject: TRS80 on craigs in Montreal In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0811231235o15ea63f7s97af126d5b36c4a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0811231235o15ea63f7s97af126d5b36c4a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d9403580811240825x7b16ccf5ge67e3c710362ce0@mail.gmail.com> FYI... You can search craigslist with Google (the whole site) "site:craigslist.org TRS80" will show quite a number of TRS80's out there... Maurice On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Joachim Thiemann < joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote: > I just saw this on Craig's; I have no connection to the seller. > > http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/sys/930932281.html > > (I do have some TRS-80 manuals for cost of shipping to give away > though... contact me off-list for details if needed) > > Joe. > --- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Nov 24 10:30:03 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:30:03 -0800 Subject: http://www.series80.org/ dead ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811240830.03717.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 20 November 2008, Rik Bos wrote: > Does anyone knows what happened with the site > http://www.series80.org/ It appears to be dead.. > > -Rik Works for me... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 24 11:23:28 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:23:28 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:26:31 -0500 > From: robo58 at optonline.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... > > This weekend I was trying to get an old CPM system running with via its 8" > floppy disks. After troubleshooting it I found that the disk drive cabinet > contained a Shugart SA801 Drive with a 230v 50/60 cycle Reaction Motor > (capacitor start). > > I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster > than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). > > Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell > it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. > > Thanks Robo > Hi In my earlier days, a friend had just the same problem. We took a file to the pully on motor shaft. We just turned it with the motor running. We did have to elongate the mounting holes on the frame. I suspect the the 50/60 cycle change had a different flywheel and pully or belt. Don't think of tape or something on the flywheel. The disk read is very sensitive to the slightest roughness on the surface of the flywheel. On old machines that I get, there is often tarnish and oxide on the flywheel. I usually clean and polish this before I expect the drive to work properly. The friend did use the SA800 for several years until he moved on to a PC. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 11:21:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:21:45 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> References: , , <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 10:26, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster > than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). > > Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell > it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. I have a Qume 842 8" drive with a 50 Hz motor that I modified to work on 60 Hz. I replaced the motor pulley with one that was slightly smaller and the drive has worked fine for the last 20 years or so. Where to find an appropriate pulley might be an issue if you don't have machining facilities. In my case, it was dumb luck--I found what I needed in one of Halted's hellboxes. It wasn't a smooth, crowned pulley like the original, but rather a flanged timing belt model. It was close enough that it worked (and is still working)-- the small teeth in the pulley surface didn't seem to transmit any "noise" to the spindle, probably because of the large mass of the spindle pulley. You might want to have a look at http://www.smallparts.com if you don't want to "roll your own". Cheers, Chuck From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Mon Nov 24 12:27:24 2008 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:27:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: magnetic drums (early patents) In-Reply-To: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: A fascinating topic. Here's a fun patent to read: http://www.google.com/patents?id=lBJtAAAAEBAJ Patent number: 2614169 Filing date: Jul 24, 1950 Issue date: Oct 1952 Inventor: A. A. COHEN Assignee: Engineering Research Asso Some mention is made of how they made it in 1950. Coombs original patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=gSBXAAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:3119110 Patent number: 3119110 Filing date: May 2, 1949 Issue date: Jan 21, 1964 Inventor: J. M. COOMBS Assignee: Sperry Rand Corporation They appear to use spray paint --- not deposition. From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 24 12:27:59 2008 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:27:59 -0600 Subject: Interlan ethernet transceiver units available In-Reply-To: <20081123153757.ZH7D1.35768.root@webfep14> Message-ID: <20081124122759.FMTVT.52038.root@webfep14> Thank you to those that have responded. The units have found a new home. If I come across any other similar items, I will let you know. Jon Jon Auringer From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Nov 24 12:49:20 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:49:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: This section of the SAGE "Theory of Operation of Drum System for AN/FSQ-7 Combat Direction Central and AN/FSQ-8 Combat Control Central" document (1958) talks about the composition of the magnetic drum rotors: "Section 2.3.3.2 Drum Rotor The magnetic drum rotor (figs. 1-5 and 1-6) is a Monel metal cylinder, coated with copper and plated with nickel-cobalt. The 0.01-inch copper coating fills the porosity of the Monel metal and provides a diamond polished surface. The 0.0005-inch nickel cobalt plating is a dia-magnetic alloy characterized by high remanence. This plating provides the magnetic storage capabilities of the drum surface. The rotor is 10.7 inches in diameter, 12.5 inches long, and weighs 105 pounds. Its shaft is mounted on ball bearings and has a toothed pulley connected by a belt to the drum motor pulley." Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dave at mitton.com Mon Nov 24 12:52:35 2008 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:52:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals Message-ID: <701548114.2063091227552755845.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> Sellam, et. al. As others have contributed, Proteon was an independent network vendor in the 1980s. I'm a little unclear what became their corporate fate, (I forgot about DEC buying source code) but they did eventually come apart due to market forces. They were an early token ring manufacturer, with their own product. When IBM pushed their technology into the IEEE 802.4 standard, they adapted with the market. They also made multi-protocol routers, and since they weren't Cisco, Digital did do some work with them. I had a 4100+ and a 4200 in my development lab. Unfortunately for you I don't think I took any of that stuff home. I was the technical lead/architect for a DECnet Token Ring Data Link specification. As part of that program, I also specified how to interface DECnet-DOS/Pathworks on to PC token ring devices. We worked with Proteon to put DECnet routing support into their routers, and I think they are whom we got to OEM an 802.4 Qbus NIC card for us. (with DECnet VMS support!) This was all to deal with the pressure IBM was putting on the PC and networking business at the time. (my memory is fuzzy on that now.) God I'd love to see what happened to the customers that swore that token ring was so superior to Ethernet that it was going to rule their networks going forward. IBM put some interesting crocks into their LAN chips wrt multicast addressing that really messed things up. I'm glad to see that chapter of history closed. I may be able to make some personal contacts to see if they have anything around. I woundn't be suprised if there is a Proteon old users/collectors group out there somewhere. Dave. ---- On Nov 24, 2008, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:08:26 -0800 (PST) From: Sellam Ismail Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals To: Classic Computers Mailing List , Bay Area Classic Computing List Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm looking for a set of manuals for the Proteon P4100/P4100+/P4200 routers, circa 1989 or earlier. I'm guessing Proteon was an independent company until DEC bought them at some point? Just guessing. Anyway, if you've got a set of manuals I'd be interested in purchasing them from you. Please contact me directly if you have some. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 24 12:41:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? In-Reply-To: <0KAT00HNH6W9POAE@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Nov 23, 8 06:08:26 pm Message-ID: > >It's a 9 pin dot-matrix head which is tilted mechanically (a pair of > >solenoids shuttling a shaped core to and fro inside the carriage) to give > >18 pin resolution in 2 passes. I find them interesting because of that > >curious mechanism. [...] > > I have two LA100ro as they proved in the field to be rugged and I got to > see that from the point of view of DEC printers engineering. The curious > approach to "18pin" printing was twofold. One was to allow fast draft > quality printing and the other was rugged high quality printing that could > still punch multipart forms with a known reliable head. At that time there > were a few 18 pin heads but they didn't have the long term life at sustained > high print rates. Note, this is a 1984-5 design so understand that many > printers at that time were of smaller or less rugged style or really > imposing printers. Sure. The idea of using multiple pases to increase resolution was quite common at the time. Sanders Associates made a range of 7 pin printers with an accurate paper feed mechanism which did 8 pases for some fonts, and the result looked as good as and daisywheel I've ever seen. But the DEC trick of shifting the printhead vertically I think was unique to the LA100 printer, and it's interesting to me for that reason. But as I've said many times before, I like unusual/curious designs whether they're processors or not. So the LA100 printer (and indeed the Sanders models I've just mentioned, which have some interesting electronics) are things that I am glad to have in the collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 24 12:50:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> from "ROBO5.8" at Nov 24, 8 10:26:31 am Message-ID: > > This weekend I was trying to get an old CPM system running with via its 8" > floppy disks. After troubleshooting it I found that the disk drive cabinet > contained a Shugart SA801 Drive with a 230v 50/60 cycle Reaction Motor > (capacitor start). > > I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster > than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). > > Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell > it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. The change in voltage is presumanbly not a problem (in that a small autotransformer would solve that), the change in frequency is. Presumably you have 60Hz mains and the drive is set for 50Hz. There would seem to be 2 solutions : 1) Generate 50Hz mains somehow, You don't need much power, so a fairly small inverter circuit would do it. This is probabably the more complex solution, though 2) The motor says it'll run at 60Hz (and you've shown this). So a pulley (annd maybe a belt) change would get the speed down. Making a pulley is fairly easy o na lathe, perhaps you can find a local model engineer (the sort of guy who makes steam engines, etc, a 'Home Shop Machinist' is the same sort of thing in the States) who would do it in exchange for some similar favour. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 13:20:20 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:20:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <53D8C7880037496B82A348F2611690EB@FLEXPC> References: <53D8C7880037496B82A348F2611690EB@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20081124111629.J53673@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Was there a 5" floppy format? I wouldn't be surprised to find out yet > another format that I've never come across before, but I don't recall it > cropping up here. 5.25" > (BTW: What's a "modern floppy" these days - one of those shint 8cm > things maybe :-) ? ) As Gary Kildall told me: "It's 8 inch single sided single density; those deviant forms that have cropped up lately don't count." From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Nov 24 13:32:00 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:32:00 -0800 Subject: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals In-Reply-To: <701548114.2063091227552755845.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> References: <701548114.2063091227552755845.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> Message-ID: <492B0130.9040009@crash.com> Dave Mitton wrote: > > (my memory is fuzzy on that now.) God I'd love to see what happened to > the customers that swore that token ring was so superior to Ethernet > that it was going to rule their networks going forward. Well, when I interviewed with Bank of America in 2004 I did so in their Concord Tech Center in Concord, California. At the end, as I was walked out to the elevators to leave, my escort let slip that they had only just a few months earlier switched the desktop networking on that floor over to Ethernet. I nearly walked simply because they were using Token Ring after the year 2000... --S. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 13:38:25 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: <20081124113652.A53673@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster > than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). > Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell > it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. Find (along with the holy grail) a supply of the correct replacement pulley. or run on 50Hz. or TRADE it to somebody in UK with the opposite problem. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 13:39:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:39:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081124113922.A53673@shell.lmi.net> OR, . . . modify your disk controller to run at a differnt bit rate From js at cimmeri.com Mon Nov 24 13:51:56 2008 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:51:56 -0500 Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? In-Reply-To: <200811241303.mAOD2j3A079976@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811241303.mAOD2j3A079976@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <492B05DC.5000309@cimmeri.com> >Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:41:26 -0000 >From: "Jim Beacon" > >From: > >>> Are DEC Letterprinter 100's in nice, working, non-noticeably-yellowed >>> condition worth anything at present? Or are they pretty much recycling >>> fodder? >> >> >Don't know if they are worth anything, I've never had to pay for one - they >just keep arriving here! > >They are useful though, as they correctly emulate a Teletype and allow >overprinting, which most modern printers don't, but I suppose that's only >useful if you have an interest in ASCII art! > >Jim. > Interesting. Well, my use is just for general programming printouts on a PDP 11/23+. Is the LA75 a viable replacement for the Letterprinter 100? The 75 isn't period to the 11/23, but my concern about the 100 is ribbons. Ribbons for the LA75 are plentiful and cheap. Thanks Jim, Tony, Allison for your replies. JS From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 24 13:55:49 2008 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:55:49 -0500 Subject: Stuff for sale, trade, and free! (Bloomington, IN) Message-ID: <1227556549.9914.6.camel@pazuzu> Its time to clean up things a bit...mostly stuff I've not had the time or desire to play with :) If I'm too high (or too low) make an offer! I'm not going to ship the complete NeXT boxes or the box of tapes, but I can be persuaded with everything else: buyer pays shipping I'm located in Bloomington, IN 47408 Things I'm looking for: * Playstation 2 * Amiga Stuff: A1200, A600 * CoCo stuff: Coco3 + disk controller * Commodore stuff: C128, 1571, 1581, C65 (hahaha) Get this stuff out of my house! Brian For Sale ========== NeXTstation (Mono) $50 32M RAM no HD Mono Monitor Mouse Keyboard Floppy Drive NeXTcube $75 64M RAM NeXT Dimension Card Color Monitor (needs 13w3 cable) Mono Monitor Mouse Keyboard Floppy Drive no HD 3x NeXT Mono Video Cable $2 each NeXT Keyboard+Mouse $5 DECserver 200/MC $5 Sun DDS2 DAT Drive in 611 Enclosure $10 599-2072-01 OkiData 184 Turbo $20 New in box 20x 10baseT external tranceivers with cable. $1 each Box of TK50s (86 tapes) $20 Distribution tapes circa 1989-1992. Ingres, RDB, Fortran, VMS 5.4, VMS 6.0, etc Freebies ======== DEC Multia AXP 166MHz Unknown condition. 32M RAM No HD 2x HP 715/64 Unknown condition One has 64M(?) and a disk. One has neither. Both show "Memory error" (leds -76-43--) SS20 Chassis No disks or ram. Didn't see a processor in there either. VAX C Manual Toshiba Satellite 400CS/810 P75 / 700M Disk / 16M RAM Battery seems to work, but no promises. External DAT, Centronics connectors. Unknown capacity 2x Ext SCSI enclosure w/centronics connectors. sun 411 enclosure size Model M Keyboard (original PC connector) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 14:12:08 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:12:08 -0600 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492B0A98.6040200@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 23, 2008, at 7:40 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've heard of low-speed, low-capacity homebrew drums before > > You have? Please tell me more? I'll see if I can unearth some dates/names. I seem to remember a couple of working projects based around non-flying heads and mounting of commercial magtape onto a cylinder for the storage medium. Longevity is obviously questionable, and rotation speed would be rather limited! Will's project is very much in a different league, obviously - hence my interest in how he gets on. To my knowledge, re-coating a non-contact drum running at 'commercial' speeds (what, typically in the 1500-400rpm range?) would be something of a first. Oh, I once read a book describing a homebrew drum in it - I think it was based around using a tin can for the drum, and the capacity was in the tens of bits. (My brain wants to say it was "how to build a working digital computer", but I could be wrong there). I wonder if anyone ever actually built one that worked? :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 14:21:07 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:07 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <20081124113922.A53673@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> <20081124113922.A53673@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > OR, . . . > modify your disk controller to run at a differnt bit rate The motor's just a simple AC-driven affair, is it not? Replacing with a similar motor of the correct frequency would be another option, assuming that the pulley can easily be removed from the original and swapped over (brain wants to tell me that it was just secured with an allen key on the original motor, but maybe that's wishful thinking). I'm going to run into the same issue as the OP sometime, as I have a pair of SA800's to bring over to the US at some stage - I believe the spindle motor portion's exactly the same between the 800 and 801. When it comes to it I'll probably just build a suitable inverter module to feed 240V at 50Hz to the motor for my drives - I'll be hooking them to a PC, so I'll need to rustle up a suitable PSU anyway. cheers Jules From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Nov 24 14:33:33 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:33:33 -0800 Subject: [OT and Done] Re: Seeking Proteon P4100+ router manuals In-Reply-To: <492B0130.9040009@crash.com> References: <701548114.2063091227552755845.JavaMail.mail@webmail08> <492B0130.9040009@crash.com> Message-ID: <492B0F9D.3050708@crash.com> Steven M Jones wrote: > > I nearly walked simply because they were using Token Ring after the year > 2000... I should explain that this was supposed to be a forward-looking position with an innovative, cutting-edge group. My concern here was that their "forward-looking" might only equate to 1996 in my personal timeline. FWIW I took the job. It's been both not as bad and far worse than I could have imagined at the time... Having roamed off-topic, and having hopefully extracted an extremity from my oral cavity, we now return to our regularly scheduled list traffic already in progress. ;^) From john at guntersville.net Mon Nov 24 14:39:51 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:39:51 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <492B1117.3040601@guntersville.net> I just got off of the phone with Small Parts "AGAIN" and was informed that after messing around and dragging their feet for 6 months they finally decided to refund my money and were not going to be handling the items I ordered. You may not want to trust them with your money, I know that I can't... Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Nov 2008 at 10:26, ROBO5.8 wrote: > > >>I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster >>than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). >> >>Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell >>it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. > > > I have a Qume 842 8" drive with a 50 Hz motor that I modified to work > on 60 Hz. I replaced the motor pulley with one that was slightly > smaller and the drive has worked fine for the last 20 years or so. > > Where to find an appropriate pulley might be an issue if you don't > have machining facilities. In my case, it was dumb luck--I found > what I needed in one of Halted's hellboxes. It wasn't a smooth, > crowned pulley like the original, but rather a flanged timing belt > model. It was close enough that it worked (and is still working)-- > the small teeth in the pulley surface didn't seem to transmit any > "noise" to the spindle, probably because of the large mass of the > spindle pulley. > > You might want to have a look at http://www.smallparts.com if you > don't want to "roll your own". > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Nov 24 14:50:31 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:50:31 -0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081124111629.J53673@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> Was there a 5" floppy format? I wouldn't be surprised to find out yet >> another format that I've never come across before, but I don't recall it >> cropping up here. > 5.25" OK. So it _could_ have been a typo/thinko/not-know-o/whatever. Does your respone mean you've never heard of a 5" floppy either? I know that there have been some oddball floppies out there and the past and I didn't want to just assume that it was a simple slip up and thereby miss out on yet another one to add to my list! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 24 11:14:23 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:14:23 -0700 Subject: Australian ex-DEC Director has large museum in his home Message-ID: Slideshow: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 15:10:57 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> Was there a 5" floppy format? I wouldn't > be surprised to find out yet > >> another format that I've never come across > before, but I don't recall > it > >> cropping up here. > > > 5.25" > > OK. So it _could_ have been a > typo/thinko/not-know-o/whatever. That's what I would bet on. While the knowledge that diskettes come in three primary sizes (8", 5 1/4" and 3 1/2") is common among us geeks, the general population has entirely forgotten about 8" disks, and refers to 5 1/4" disks as "those big bendy disks", "five inch disks", or similar. Remember all the people that called 3 1/2" disks "hard disks"? Even computer companies - people that should know better, make mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Mon Nov 24 15:19:06 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:19:06 -0700 Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:49:20 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > > This section of the SAGE "Theory of Operation of Drum System for > AN/FSQ-7 Combat Direction Central and AN/FSQ-8 Combat Control Central" > document (1958) talks about the composition of the magnetic drum rotors: Now cue Guy Sotomayor, Dennis Boone and Patrick Finnegan to question my "business relationship" with bitsavers! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 15:15:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:15:50 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492B1117.3040601@guntersville.net> References: , <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com>, <492B1117.3040601@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <492AA906.3926.40298C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 14:39, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > I just got off of the phone with Small Parts "AGAIN" and was informed > that after messing around and dragging their feet for 6 months they > finally decided to refund my money and were not going to be handling the > items I ordered. You may not want to trust them with your money, I know > that I can't... That's too bad; they used to be a pretty decent outfit. So where does one go for small engineering findings nowadays? I've used McMaster-Carr for some things, but that's not their specialty. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 15:35:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:35:29 -0800 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 13:10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > That's what I would bet on. While the knowledge that diskettes come in > three primary sizes (8", 5 1/4" and 3 1/2") is common among us geeks, > the general population has entirely forgotten about 8" disks, and > refers to 5 1/4" disks as "those big bendy disks", "five inch disks", > or similar. Remember all the people that called 3 1/2" disks "hard > disks"? Why don't those metrificated folks outside of the US talk about 133 mm, 89 mm and 203 mm floppies? What German has even seen an inch rule? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 15:54:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081124135142.D63261@shell.lmi.net> > > > 5.25" > > OK. So it _could_ have been a > > typo/thinko/not-know-o/whatever. On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > That's what I would bet on. While the knowledge that diskettes come in > three primary sizes (8", 5 1/4" and 3 1/2") is common among us geeks, > the general population has entirely forgotten about 8" disks, and refers > to 5 1/4" disks as "those big bendy disks", "five inch disks", or Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn'y involved in those days call them 5" > similar. Remember all the people that called 3 1/2" disks "hard disks"? Also calling them 3" and calling them 3.25". I always kept a 3" and a 3.25" disk handy to wave in the air every time that error occurred. > Even computer companies - people that should know better, make mistakes > when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples store > (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB > floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb > double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". "We got that" has never had a clue about ANYTHING involving electronics, or even office supplies. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 16:01:31 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:01:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> References: , , <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> <20081124113922.A53673@shell.lmi.net> <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081124135907.L63261@shell.lmi.net> Periodically, we get people in UK asking how to convert 60Hz Shugarts to 50Hz. Doesn't anybody see the simpler solution? Trade drives trade pulleys but is it really necessary to remachine the pulleys? From john at guntersville.net Mon Nov 24 16:07:17 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:07:17 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492AA906.3926.40298C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com>, <492B1117.3040601@guntersville.net> <492AA906.3926.40298C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <492B2595.6050303@guntersville.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Nov 2008 at 14:39, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > >>I just got off of the phone with Small Parts "AGAIN" and was informed >>that after messing around and dragging their feet for 6 months they >>finally decided to refund my money and were not going to be handling the >>items I ordered. You may not want to trust them with your money, I know >>that I can't... > > > That's too bad; they used to be a pretty decent outfit. > > So where does one go for small engineering findings nowadays? I've > used McMaster-Carr for some things, but that's not their specialty. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I had seen Small Parts recommended on this list and had high hopes. I have now heard about every story in the book and from just about all levels so I now have my doubts about them. All of the suppliers I knew about are now history. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 16:23:46 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:23:46 -0500 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <974148.98102.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <974148.98102.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > wild guess - the binder is some sort of expensive epoxy material. Perhaps. Some sort binder as found in enamel paints might work as well. > How are you going to apply the rust? With a airbrush? You'll need some sort of mechanism to insure it gets applied evenly (i.e uniform thickness), no? You'll also need something similar to apply the *epoxy* - that would have to go on uniformly also. The distance between the read head and the platter is measured in microns, no? The drum is quite low density, and does not have air bearing heads. The head heights are actually adjustable with a bunch of set screws. The heads themselves are also pretty big. This is a late 1950s drum, not a 1970s era hard disk - there is a world of difference. I would bet the heads ride a few thousands above the surface. The whole assembly is in a very rigid cast chassis, driven by a relatively low-frills AC motor, apparently. My thinking is that the drum could be recoated (this is assuming it is indeed shot), and using the rigid cast chassis, ground down to a smooth surface with a custom made tool. This is much like a "poor mans wheel lathe" used on railroad wheels. As long as the bearings are still pretty tight, there should be very little wobble between the drum and chassis. With each head being adjustable for height, much inaccuracy across the drum becomes fairly unimportant. Inaccuracy around the drum is more of an issue, but I suspect it will not be too bad if the correct tool material and magnetic coating is used, and the drum ground down gently. I will ask my real machinist friends about the tooling, as I doubt I (or any of us) could make it. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 24 16:36:36 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:36:36 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material Message-ID: <492B2C74.4000201@bitsavers.org> like this, perhaps? http://www.google.com/patents?id=q8pJAAAAEBAJ&dq=3225183 From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Nov 24 16:44:46 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:44:46 -0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081124135142.D63261@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> >Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn'y involved in those days >call them 5" I must be hanging around with wrong class of ignoramus - I've never heard them called anything other than 5-1/4". Obviously these days I never hear them called _anything_ ... > Also calling them 3" and calling them 3.25". > I always kept a 3" and a 3.25" disk handy to wave in the air every time > that error occurred. 3" I do have (for some Amstrady thingumies). 3.25" I've never had the pleasure to chance upon (although I know they do exist). Antonio From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Nov 24 17:21:17 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:21:17 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081124171956.0d725e60@localhost> On the other hand, I have one, possible two, SA801's with 60Hz, 110V motors in them, which I would gladly sell you at a reasonable price. Perhaps that solution interests you. -T At 09:23 AM 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote: > > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:26:31 -0500 > > From: robo58 at optonline.net > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > CC: > > Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... > > > > This weekend I was trying to get an old CPM system running with via its 8" > > floppy disks. After troubleshooting it I found that the disk drive cabinet > > contained a Shugart SA801 Drive with a 230v 50/60 cycle Reaction Motor > > (capacitor start). > > > > I scoped out the index pulse to verify and it was running about 1.2x faster > > than it should (420 rpm versus the expected 360 rpm). > > > > Is there anything I can do to get this drive operational other than to sell > > it another who has a 230v/50 cycle environment. > > > > Thanks Robo > > > >Hi > In my earlier days, a friend had just the same problem. >We took a file to the pully on motor shaft. > We just turned it with the motor running. > We did have to elongate the mounting holes on the >frame. I suspect the the 50/60 cycle change had >a different flywheel and pully or belt. > Don't think of tape or something on the flywheel. >The disk read is very sensitive to the slightest >roughness on the surface of the flywheel. > On old machines that I get, there is often >tarnish and oxide on the flywheel. I usually clean >and polish this before I expect the drive to work properly. > The friend did use the SA800 for several years until >he moved on to a PC. >Dwight >_________________________________________________________________ >Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. >http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 17:28:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:28:54 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: References: , <974148.98102.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <492AC836.6374.47C6D50@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 17:23, William Donzelli wrote: > My thinking is that the drum could be recoated (this is assuming it is > indeed shot), and using the rigid cast chassis, ground down to a > smooth surface with a custom made tool. This is much like a "poor mans > wheel lathe" used on railroad wheels. As long as the bearings are > still pretty tight, there should be very little wobble between the > drum and chassis. With each head being adjustable for height, much > inaccuracy across the drum becomes fairly unimportant. Inaccuracy > around the drum is more of an issue, but I suspect it will not be too > bad if the correct tool material and magnetic coating is used, and the > drum ground down gently. I will ask my real machinist friends about > the tooling, as I doubt I (or any of us) could make it. I wonder if the coating could be made from a slow-ish drying binder, such as polyurethane resin, mixed with the oxide, the drum liberally coated with the glop and then spun at low speed (horizontally) while drying to keep the coating a more-or-less uniform thickness. I don't know if it would work, but it might be worth looking into. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 17:34:21 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> References: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20081124153212.G68110@shell.lmi.net> > >Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn't involved in those days > >call them 5" On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I must be hanging around with wrong class of ignoramus - I've never > heard > them called anything other than 5-1/4". Obviously these days I never > hear > them called _anything_ ... As soon as people got into computers who started with 3.5", they started to get sloppy and call them 5" > 3" I do have (for some Amstrady thingumies). 3.25" I've never had the > pleasure to chance upon (although I know they do exist). 3.25" was the Dysan fiasco. We can tell you a lot more about them if you want to be bored. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 17:35:59 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> References: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20081124153527.J68110@shell.lmi.net> > >Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn'y involved in those On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I must be hanging around with wrong class of ignoramus - I've never BTW, an ignoranus is an ignoramus who is also an asshole From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Nov 24 17:41:19 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:41:19 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081124135142.D63261@shell.lmi.net> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20081124174036.0b7d2008@localhost> At 01:54 PM 11/24/2008 -0800, you wrote: > > > > 5.25" > > > OK. So it _could_ have been a > > > typo/thinko/not-know-o/whatever. > >On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > That's what I would bet on. While the knowledge that diskettes come in > > three primary sizes (8", 5 1/4" and 3 1/2") is common among us geeks, > > the general population has entirely forgotten about 8" disks, and refers > > to 5 1/4" disks as "those big bendy disks", "five inch disks", or > >Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn'y involved in those days >call them 5" > > > > similar. Remember all the people that called 3 1/2" disks "hard disks"? >Also calling them 3" and calling them 3.25". >I always kept a 3" and a 3.25" disk handy to wave in the air every time >that error occurred. We called 'em "Stiffies" ----- 97. [Computing] "Now you can install your new kernel and try it out." --SunOS 4.1.3, config(8) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 17:45:45 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:45:45 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492B2595.6050303@guntersville.net> References: , <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com>, <492B1117.3040601@guntersville.net> <492AA906.3926.40298C2@cclist.sydex.com> <492B2595.6050303@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <492B3CA9.1090607@gmail.com> John C. Ellingboe wrote: >> So where does one go for small engineering findings nowadays? I've >> used McMaster-Carr for some things, but that's not their specialty. My nearby equivalent to Home Depot seems reasonable - they have a healthy selection of metal stock, threaded rods, belts etc. along with all the usual nuts, bolts and fittings. They're local to this region though... What I don't know of currently is where to get *small* items - e.g. the above place does pulleys, but probably the smallest is a couple of inches in diameter (in the past I hoarded stuff like that every time I tore something apart - but of course having moved countries I've got no stockpile of handy widgets any more! :-) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Nov 24 17:50:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:50:49 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081124153212.G68110@shell.lmi.net> References: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> <20081124153212.G68110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200811241850.50157.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 24 November 2008 06:34:21 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > > >Virtually EVERYONE who is an ignoranus, or wasn't involved in those days > > >call them 5" > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I must be hanging around with wrong class of ignoramus - I've never > > heard > > them called anything other than 5-1/4". Obviously these days I never > > hear > > them called _anything_ ... > > As soon as people got into computers who started with 3.5", they started > to get sloppy and call them 5" > > > 3" I do have (for some Amstrady thingumies). 3.25" I've never had the > > pleasure to chance upon (although I know they do exist). > > 3.25" was the Dysan fiasco. We can tell you a lot more about them if you > want to be bored. Didn't IBM make a 4" size around the time that sub-5.25" was just getting going as well? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From technobug at comcast.net Mon Nov 24 17:54:59 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:54:59 -0700 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: <200811242324.mAONO9aC092609@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811242324.mAONO9aC092609@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 24 Nov 2008 13:15:50 -0800, Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 24 Nov 2008 at 14:39, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > >> I just got off of the phone with Small Parts "AGAIN" and was informed >> that after messing around and dragging their feet for 6 months they >> finally decided to refund my money and were not going to be >> handling the >> items I ordered. You may not want to trust them with your money, I >> know >> that I can't... > > That's too bad; they used to be a pretty decent outfit. > > So where does one go for small engineering findings nowadays? I've > used McMaster-Carr for some things, but that's not their specialty. Over the years I've been using WM Berg . CRC From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 17:56:12 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:56:12 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why don't those metrificated folks outside of the US talk about 133 > mm, 89 mm and 203 mm floppies? Heh... because it'd be incredibly confusing? What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) Re. floppy sizes, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 5" floppy, however computer illiterate. I believe I have heard 5 1/2" thrown about (to incorrectly mean 5 1/4") in the early days of 3.5" adoption. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 24 18:09:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <200811241850.50157.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <74FD7B063E0949ACBA2162A87B349125@FLEXPC> <20081124153212.G68110@shell.lmi.net> <200811241850.50157.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20081124160758.B68110@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't IBM make a 4" size around the time that sub-5.25" was just getting > going as well? The IBM one that I saw during that whole brouhaha was 3.9" I've never seen one in actual use. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 18:21:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:21:32 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: References: <200811242324.mAONO9aC092609@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <492AD48C.26291.4ACC24D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 16:54, CRC wrote: > Over the years I've been using WM Berg . Thanks for the tip. It turns out that if you'll setting for a timing belt pulley, as I did, McMaster-Carr may have just the ticket: http://tinyurl.com/5fq9aq Found under "Pulley, Drive Pulley, Finished bore". Cheers, Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Nov 24 18:29:45 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:29:45 +0100 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 05:56:12PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Why don't those metrificated folks outside of the US talk about 133 > >mm, 89 mm and 203 mm floppies? > > Heh... because it'd be incredibly confusing? > > What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and > start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) > > Re. floppy sizes, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 5" floppy, > however computer illiterate. I believe I have heard 5 1/2" thrown about (to > incorrectly mean 5 1/4") in the early days of 3.5" adoption. There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic typewriters. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bnansel at bigpond.net.au Mon Nov 24 18:58:44 2008 From: bnansel at bigpond.net.au (Robert Nansel) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:28:44 +1030 Subject: Hard disk material Message-ID: <2170B7F2-ED0C-4436-8C79-02F83BD28C95@bigpond.net.au> Sun Nov 23 Eric Smith wrote: > Nickel plating would definitely not work. Some of the earliest drums > used cunife (copper/nickel/iron alloy) wire tightly wound around an > aluminum cylinder, then turned on a lathe to get a flat surface. ... Hmmm . . . that technique might work for my 2N2/256 BSCP project! It also occurs to me that the machining could be done with the drive mechanics, provided it's rigid enough and you take very light cuts. You would fabricate a cutter head that bolts in the same way as a R/W head. To take a cut, you just tweak the adjustment screw(s) and turn an additional "feed" screw to cut the track the right width. Heck, you wouldn't even need the feed screw. Make the head so it can slide laterally a millimetre or two, then you could move the cutter head back and forth by hand, the same way the Fonly lathe works. It also might be possible to just lap the R/W heads in with a tiny amount of jewer's rouge, then carefully clean all the grit out and readjust the heads to give the right gap. -Bobby From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 19:01:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:01:13 -0800 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com>, <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <492ADDD9.20909.4D104F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2008 at 1:29, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic > typewriters. I don't know if I'd call the Amstrad/Schneider PCW "Joyce" a typewriter, but it used 3 inch CF2 floppies. Rather than struggle with trying to find the blasted things on this side of the pond for mine, I converted over to 720K DS 3.5" drives. More storage than the original. The Zenith Minisport used 2" floppies (the same media used on the Canon Xapshot camera (and some others). As has been mentioned, there are also 2.8" and 3.25" inch floppies. There's also a 12" floppy, but it doesn't hold much: http://paisleymonkey.com/ProductView.aspx?ProductID=628 Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 19:30:48 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:30:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <200811242324.mAONO9aL092609@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > (My brain wants to say it was "how to build a working digital > computer", but I could be wrong there). I wonder if anyone ever > actually built one that worked? :-) Your brain is not leading you astray. That's the book. Here's the PDF version: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/paperClipComputer/HowToBuildAWorkingDigitalComputer_Jun67.pdf From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 24 20:03:24 2008 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:03:24 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Stuff for sale, trade, and free! (Bloomington, IN) In-Reply-To: <1227556549.9914.6.camel@pazuzu> References: <1227556549.9914.6.camel@pazuzu> Message-ID: <1227578604.2934.20.camel@bender> Pretty much everything is spoken for. I'll get things gathered and boxed in the next few days and contact everyone with instructions. Thanks to all! Below is all that's left, and I'll ship it if you pay for shipping. Brian On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 14:55 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I'm located in Bloomington, IN 47408 > > > For Sale > ========== > Sun DDS2 DAT Drive in 611 Enclosure $10 > 599-2072-01 > > OkiData 184 Turbo $20 > New in box > Freebies > ======== > 2x HP 715/64 > Unknown condition > One has 64M(?) and a disk. One has neither. > Both show "Memory error" (leds -76-43--) > > SS20 Chassis > No disks or ram. Didn't see a processor in there either. > Toshiba Satellite 400CS/810 > P75 / 700M Disk / 16M RAM > Battery seems to work, but no promises. > > External DAT, Centronics connectors. Unknown capacity > > 2x Ext SCSI enclosure w/centronics connectors. sun 411 enclosure size From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 24 20:05:21 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:05:21 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <200811242324.mAONO9aL092609@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492AECE1.12033.50B962F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 17:30, William Blair wrote: > > (My brain wants to say it was "how to build a working digital > > computer", but I could be wrong there). I wonder if anyone ever > > actually built one that worked? :-) > > Your brain is not leading you astray. That's the book. Here's the PDF version: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/paperClipComputer/HowToBuildAWorkingDigitalComputer_Jun67.pdf Wow, that player-piano style drum unit caused a dormant neuron to twitch. Wasn't there a commercial "educational computer" that was the spitting image of this thing, but all in a single big long unit? Pretty much about the same time period as the Heathkit analog computer, maybe? Cheers, Chuck From cvisors at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 20:46:44 2008 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Ivy Gardiner) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:46:44 +1100 Subject: dec docs and gopher Message-ID: Hi All, some of you may remember that I mirror a load of dec docs at http://www.carnagevisors.net/dec94mds/ well I have moved my site to a new server that's a lot faster so feel free to have a good look. And as my partner and I were bored today we also have: gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds for all the text documents. Why? I say why not. Have fun -- Ivy Jane Gardiner VK3LNX From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 24 20:51:08 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 18:51:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: dec docs and gopher In-Reply-To: from Ivy Gardiner at "Nov 25, 8 01:46:44 pm" Message-ID: <200811250251.mAP2p8es010834@floodgap.com> > some of you may remember that I mirror a load of dec docs at > http://www.carnagevisors.net/dec94mds/ > > well I have moved my site to a new server that's a lot faster so feel free > to have a good look. > > And as my partner and I were bored today we also have: > > gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds > > for all the text documents. Why? I say why not. I am delighted to see another gopher server out there. As you say, why not? (gopher.floodgap.com) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 25 04:39:06 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:39:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Why don't those metrificated folks outside of the US talk about 133 mm, 89 >> mm and 203 mm floppies? > > Heh... because it'd be incredibly confusing? In fact, the EC dictates to use metric sizes (and thus 8,89cm and 13,34cm floppies/hard drives and so on, not to forget the 38,1cm or 43,18cm computer monitors). But it has never been accepted in the IT sector, neither by professionals nor by individuals. But I remember the Ads from that time of the style "box of 10 8,89cm (3,5") disks" or "new 43,18cm (17") monitor with brilliant colors". The "inches" have never been dropped because although you could only buy e.g. 48cm TVs (and everyone knew what size that TV set is), nobody knew what a 43cm monitor would be... > What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and > start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) Christian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 25 05:03:39 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:03:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > > What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and > > start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) A3 paper is on display at my local Officemax. No A4 though. > As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) I seem to recall something being said about it becoming much easier after the US auto industry switches over. That appears to have happened, but we still default to non-metric thread and nuts. Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 25 06:09:54 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:09:54 +0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <492BEB12.2060706@philpem.me.uk> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic > typewriters. And the "Sinclair" (post-Amstrad buyout) Spectrum +3. Amstrad were supposed to be releasing a floppy controller and drive for the +2A, but IIRC it never materialised. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 08:18:18 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:18:18 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492C092A.5090407@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > >>> What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and >>> start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) > > A3 paper is on display at my local Officemax. No A4 though. Weird. I don't mind it with screws and stuff as generally they need to cross borders less - it's a pain in the butt having to tweak anything that might need to be printed for different markets, though. > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require > considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they > too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells hex screws - I almost stocked up (rivets/nails are just a complete nightmare)! I don't mind Phillips if I know the job and so know I'm not going to be putting too much torque on things. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 08:22:13 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:22:13 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492BEB12.2060706@philpem.me.uk> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> <492BEB12.2060706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <492C0A15.5080106@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic >> typewriters. > > And the "Sinclair" (post-Amstrad buyout) Spectrum +3. Hmm - had a brain fart. I typed exactly that last night, but then forgot to hit send :-) Tatung Einstein used CF2's too. I think there was another (relatively) uncommon machine which used CF2's as standard, too, but the name's eluding me right now. > Amstrad were > supposed to be releasing a floppy controller and drive for the +2A, but > IIRC it never materialised. Possibly a good thing. ISTR there was a popular third-party drive for the +2 machines, but it was a standard 3.5" unit, not 3"... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 08:28:12 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:28:12 -0600 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492C0B7C.5050703@gmail.com> William Blair wrote: >> (My brain wants to say it was "how to build a working digital >> computer", but I could be wrong there). I wonder if anyone ever >> actually built one that worked? :-) > > Your brain is not leading you astray. That's the book. Here's the PDF version: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/paperClipComputer/HowToBuildAWorkingDigitalComputer_Jun67.pdf That claim of some drums operating at 75,000rpm has to be a typo... I can believe 7500 - but 75,000? Ouch! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Nov 25 08:45:34 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:45:34 +0000 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <200811242324.mAONO9aN092609@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811242324.mAONO9aN092609@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2C196763-3E92-47CD-A12F-098566617D34@microspot.co.uk> > I have no idea about the material, but I can tell you about one application method you may not have considered. I have mentioned it here before but maybe you have joined the list recently. Similar drums were made by ICT/ICL from 1962 to 1965 for the 1300 series, and probably for the 1200 series drum based computers in the 50s. They too had fixed heads with set screw adjustment, which was carried out by monitoring the pressure of compressed air blown through a venturi in each head while moving an Allen screw. The 1300 drums were 12000 48bit word capacity, driven by a 3/4 horsepower motor geared up to 5240rpm at the drum spindle for lower access times. After many experiments they found they could not beat the human hand applying a magnetisable compound like a potter making a pot. Sounds very low tech but apparently it works, and I have drums which have not been touched since manufacture and they still work 46 years on. Of course for you, low tech could be a bonus as it means low cost. Maybe your local educational establishment has a skilled potter who could do a great job for a reasonable price, or just for interest. > The drum is quite low density, and does not have air bearing heads. > The head heights are actually adjustable with a bunch of set screws. > The heads themselves are also pretty big. This is a late 1950s drum, > not a 1970s era hard disk - there is a world of difference. I would > bet the heads ride a few thousands above the surface. > > The whole assembly is in a very rigid cast chassis, driven by a > relatively low-frills AC motor, apparently. > > My thinking is that the drum could be recoated (this is assuming it is > indeed shot), and using the rigid cast chassis, ground down to a > smooth surface with a custom made tool. This is much like a "poor mans > wheel lathe" used on railroad wheels. As long as the bearings are > still pretty tight, there should be very little wobble between the > drum and chassis. With each head being adjustable for height, much > inaccuracy across the drum becomes fairly unimportant. Inaccuracy > around the drum is more of an issue, but I suspect it will not be too > bad if the correct tool material and magnetic coating is used, and the > drum ground down gently. I will ask my real machinist friends about > the tooling, as I doubt I (or any of us) could make it. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 25 10:03:31 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20081125160331.63746564C1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith > > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require > considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they > too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. ^^^^^^^^^^^ is known as a "Robertson". Cheers, Bryan From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 25 12:55:07 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:55:07 +0100 Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> I distinctly remember an article in the german CT magazine, a couple of years ago. It described the development of the G1, G2 and G3 computers of the Gottingen university at the end of the 50 and throughout the sixties. They also used a drum, and the article described how they coated the drum with the mixture of oxide and -something- with a normal painter brush, by hand... That -something- is mentioned in the article, I forgot what it was. Several attempts were required to get the correct thickness. Distance between heads and drum was measured using cigarette paper as a shim.... Jos From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 13:35:42 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:35:42 -0500 Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> References: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > They also used a drum, and the article described how they coated the drum > with the mixture of oxide and -something- with a normal painter brush, by > hand... > That -something- is mentioned in the article, I forgot what it was. Yes, that -something-. That is what is the mystery. The binder for a marine grade paint would probably work fine. > Distance between heads and drum was measured using cigarette paper as a > shim.... Or those squishy plastic thread gauges that machinists and engine rebuilders use. -- Will From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 12:16:47 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <200811251801.mAPI0igf009414@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > That claim of some drums operating at 75,000rpm has to be a typo... > I can believe 7500 - but 75,000? Ouch! Eckert once made the claim that, ?laboratory models have been operated in excess of 75,000 rpm.? That's probably where they got that. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:08:15 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:08:15 -0500 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <200811251801.mAPI0igf009414@dewey.classiccmp.org> <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Eckert once made the claim that, "laboratory models have been operated in excess of 75,000 rpm." ...while I was picking chunks of drum out of my face". -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 25 14:19:27 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:19:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C0A15.5080106@gmail.com> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> <492BEB12.2060706@philpem.me.uk> <492C0A15.5080106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081125121411.P23383@shell.lmi.net> > >> There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic > >> typewriters. There were double sided and single sided "flippy" drives Amdek made add-on external 3" floppy drive units for Apple][ and Coco. The "Coco" one was, of course usable with almost anything that used an SA400 interface at a 250K data transfer rate. You would probably need back issues of 80 Micro, Rainbow, or Computer Shopper to be able to find the ads for them. A handful of 3" drives could be turned on edge to cram into a 5150 drive bay From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 25 14:28:48 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:28:48 +0000 Subject: New home sought for a PDP-11 Message-ID: <492C6000.6020609@gjcp.net> Hi all, I've come to the conclusion that it's time my PDP11/73 went to a new home. Not a terribly easy decision to make, but I just don't have space to even get to it to switch it on just now and I'd rather see someone else get some use out of it. Anyway, here's the spec: PDP11/73 in a large Baydel cabinet with a 40M-ish MFM drive RX02 floppies 2 x RL02 plus a spare RL02 2 x CIT101 terminals VT520 terminal VT220 terminal LA36, spare ribbons and paper spare boards including 11/03 bits, a couple of opto-isolated I/O boards and some ADC boards DEQNA about a dozen RL02 packs large box of RX02 disks RT-11 V5.2 manuals Pick up in Glasgow. You'll need a van, although not a very big one, to shift it. A large estate car would be too small unless you broke the rack down into panels - a PITA, I've done it before though. Mail me on- or off-list if you're interested. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 25 14:30:40 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:30:40 +0000 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492C6070.3050205@gjcp.net> William Blair wrote: >> That claim of some drums operating at 75,000rpm has to be a typo... >> I can believe 7500 - but 75,000? Ouch! > > Eckert once made the claim that, ?laboratory models have been operated in excess of 75,000 rpm.? That's probably where they got that. ... but the gas turbine proved uneconomic to run. Gordon From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 25 14:48:45 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:48:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> > > What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and > > start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) > > As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) They are, already, jamming screws with metric threads into non-metric threaded holes. 40 years ago, we were running into disastrous comingling of NC and NF. Two folk I knew decided to trade doors of their USA vans (one had windows, one didn't). I had to repair a lot of stripped threads by the time they realized that one was NC, one was NF, of the same model van. Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like UK a long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:53:02 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:53:02 -0500 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <58427.72066.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492C65AE.2000302@gmail.com> William Blair wrote: >> That claim of some drums operating at 75,000rpm has to be a typo... >> I can believe 7500 - but 75,000? Ouch! > > Eckert once made the claim that, ?laboratory models have been operated in excess of 75,000 rpm.? That's probably where they got that. God help them if a drum comes apart at that speed. I doubt the casing would hold together. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:56:41 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:56:41 -0500 Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: References: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <492C6689.9010204@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> They also used a drum, and the article described how they coated the drum >> with the mixture of oxide and -something- with a normal painter brush, by >> hand... >> That -something- is mentioned in the article, I forgot what it was. > > Yes, that -something-. That is what is the mystery. > > The binder for a marine grade paint would probably work fine. What is it? Some kind of durable acrylic? Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 25 15:02:29 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:02:29 +0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: . > Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like UK a > long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth. (Sorry Jay) Bloody late-70s Rangerovers with their mixes of screws - rear wheelarches with metric screws at the front and imperial at the back on one side, and on the other side metric at the back and imperial at the front! Quick drill and tap, and they were *all* metric. Put an end to that nonsense right away. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 13:29:36 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:29:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 24, 8 05:23:46 pm Message-ID: > My thinking is that the drum could be recoated (this is assuming it is > indeed shot), and using the rigid cast chassis, ground down to a > smooth surface with a custom made tool. This is much like a "poor mans > wheel lathe" used on railroad wheels. As long as the bearings are > still pretty tight, there should be very little wobble between the If there is signifcant play in the bearings, you have prolems anyway, since the drum won't remain at hthe right distance form the heads. You'd need to sort that out before re-coating it. > drum and chassis. With each head being adjustable for height, much > inaccuracy across the drum becomes fairly unimportant. Inaccuracy > around the drum is more of an issue, but I suspect it will not be too > bad if the correct tool material and magnetic coating is used, and the > drum ground down gently. I will ask my real machinist friends about > the tooling, as I doubt I (or any of us) could make it. I wonder if you coud remove the heads and mount something in place of each one temproraily holding a cutting or grinding tool. Then slowly feed it in with the drum spinng. It shouldn't matter if all trackes aren't exactlyy the same height, that's what the head adjustments are for :-). Afterwards, replace the heads and adjust. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 13:03:41 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:03:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 24, 8 02:21:07 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > OR, . . . > > modify your disk controller to run at a differnt bit rate > > The motor's just a simple AC-driven affair, is it not? Replacing with a > similar motor of the correct frequency would be another option, assuming that A clever trick if you can do it!. You can't get jeut any speed from such a motor. For a synchronous motor, IIRC the speed (in rpm) is (mains frequency * 60)/(number of pole pairs). I have no idea how many poles the normal motor is, but I doubt you'll be able to make one for the 'other frequenct' that uses the same pulleys. > the pulley can easily be removed from the original and swapped over (brain > wants to tell me that it was just secured with an allen key on the original > motor, but maybe that's wishful thinking). > It is. The pulley is easy to remove and replace. IIRC the 50Hz conversion kit consisted of a larger pulley (so the surface speed of the pulley and thus the belt ended up the same) and a longer belt (to fit round the larger pulley). The spidle flywheel was unchanged. > I'm going to run into the same issue as the OP sometime, as I have a pair of > SA800's to bring over to the US at some stage - I believe the spindle motor > portion's exactly the same between the 800 and 801. I thought the 800 and 801 were essentially the same drive anyway. The spindle motor should tbe the same in the 850 series (double sided) too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 13:16:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:16:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Nov 24, 8 01:10:57 pm Message-ID: > Even computer companies - people that should know better, make > mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples > store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB > floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb > double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". > Well, calling it mb (millibyte) is clearly wrong. And the value of 1.44Mbytes assumes you take 1Mbyte as 1000*1024 bytes, which is downright crazy. But I'll bet you're moaning abotu the '720K single-siderd' part. But what do you think is the capacity of a single-sided, 80 cylinder disk using the the HD data rates (And thus 18 512-yte sectors/track)? OK, I'll but that's not what the drive supports, but there's no logical reason why it can't... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 13:25:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:25:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <20081124135907.L63261@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 24, 8 02:01:31 pm Message-ID: > > Periodically, we get people in UK asking how to convert 60Hz Shugarts to > 50Hz. > > Doesn't anybody see the simpler solution? > > > Trade drives Shiping 8" drives and ensuring they stay undamaged and aligned is not trivial! > trade pulleys Assuming you can find soemody who has a spare 50Hz pulley. > but is it really necessary to remachine the pulleys? That, IMHO is the simplest solution. The machining is very basic. OK, not everybody has machine tools, not everybody wants to learn to use them. In whcih case, it may be possile to find a firendly local model engineer who will skim a it off the pulley in exchange for you helping him. Perhaps he needs his PC sorted out, or some simple electronics designed, or... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 14:56:41 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:56:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Nov 25, 8 01:29:45 am Message-ID: > There have been 3" floppies, IIRC used by some (Amstrad?) eletronic > typewriters. 3" floppies were not uncommon in the UK. As well as Amstrad (both the CPC series of home computers and the PCW word processors [1]), the Tatung Einstein used them. And I've seen at least one 3rd-paety disk drive for the BBC micro that was 3". I find the 3" disk to be mechaniocally superior to the 3.5" one. The shutter on the latter is a very poor design (as anybody who's had to strip a drive down to extrace a mngled shutter will confirm.) [1] They wrre a lot more than electronic typewriters. They were Z80 based ocmputers that ran CPM+ (IIRC) and which came wth a word processor program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 15:03:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:03:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C092A.5090407@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 25, 8 08:18:18 am Message-ID: > Weird. I don't mind it with screws and stuff as generally they need to cross > borders less - it's a pain in the butt having to tweak anything that might > need to be printed for different markets, though. You will probably have different feelings about this when you have to replace fixing hardware in a a foreign machine... >From looking at catalogues, etc, it seems to be a lot easier to get metric nuts/bolts in the US than UNC ones in the UK (the latter is next-to-impossible!). I am seriously thinking of ordering an assortment of the latter from the States. > > > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require > > considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they > > too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. > > I noticed the other day that Home Depot sells hex screws - I almost stocked up > (rivets/nails are just a complete nightmare)! I don't mind Phillips if I know > the job and so know I'm not going to be putting too much torque on things. I detest Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They always seem to strip or 'cam out' when you try to remove them. Admittedly some of the problems that people have come from using the wrong screwdriver (Phillips and Pozidriv are different tip shapes, and using the worng tool will cause damage to both the screw head and the tool) but I have both and use them appropriately. My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. -tony From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Nov 25 15:08:46 2008 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:08:46 +0000 Subject: After an H960 rack.. Message-ID: <1227647326.17872.51.camel@spasmo> Hi, I don't suppose anyone in the UK has any H960 DEC racks looking for a good home? I'm in the process of moving all of my collection from my storage unit to my office server room and I'm short of racks to put it all in. Would be nice to put it all in correct period racks. Condition not important as I am a dab hand at cleaning and de-rusting. Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 15:12:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:12:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Nov 25, 8 07:55:07 pm Message-ID: > Distance between heads and drum was measured using cigarette paper as > a shim.... > As an aside, one of the common cigarette papers in the UK (I forget which one, but I can trivially look it up) is almost exactly 1 thou (0.001") thick. A common trick of machinists doing not-too-accurate work is to lick a bit of such paper and stick it to the workpiece, then bring in the cutting tool (machine running) until it just scrapes the paper. The cutter is then 1 thou from the work and you have a reference point for the feedscrew. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 25 15:18:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:18:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 25, 8 12:48:45 pm Message-ID: > Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like UK a > long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth. As I mentioned a week or so ago, I've just bought an HP59309 HPIB-interfaced clock. None of my HPIB cables will fit it. The reason is that it's sufficiently early to have 6-32 UNC jackposts on the HPIB connector, rather than the M3.5 metric ones that came later, and nobody has done the conversion (new jackposts). I'm not going to do it either, something that old should be kept original. I'll jute replace the locking screws at one end of one of my (many) HPIB cales. At least one UK machine tool manufacture was using an odd mix of screws up to 10 years ago (and probaly still does). The lathe I bought form them has a mix of BSW (Whitworth), BA, and metric fasteners. -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Nov 25 15:37:11 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:37:11 +0100 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081125213711.GA3631@thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 03:03:39AM -0800, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > > > As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) > > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require > considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they > too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. Around here (Switzerland) I see people using Torx quite a lot. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 25 15:46:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:46:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like UK a > > long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth. > > As I mentioned a week or so ago, I've just bought an HP59309 > HPIB-interfaced clock. None of my HPIB cables will fit it. The reason is > that it's sufficiently early to have 6-32 UNC jackposts on the HPIB > connector, rather than the M3.5 metric ones that came later, and nobody > has done the conversion (new jackposts). I'm not going to do it either, > something that old should be kept original. I'll jute replace the locking > screws at one end of one of my (many) HPIB cales. This is a bit of a headscratcher for me. Why bother worrying about if the screws are original? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Nov 25 15:53:12 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:53:12 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > . >> Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like >> UK a >> long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth. > > (Sorry Jay) > > Bloody late-70s Rangerovers with their mixes of screws - rear > wheelarches with metric screws at the front and imperial at the back on > one side, and on the other side metric at the back and imperial at the > front! Two words: "Triumph" and "Whitworth" My ('70? '69?) TC100 had metric, imperial, AND Whitworth parts. Doc From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Nov 25 15:59:25 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:59:25 +0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492C753D.6030202@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: (once again, sorry Jay) > My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. Oh I have... Bloody Volkswagens with their stupid 5-lobed Torx-like brake caliper bolts, that you can't even get drivers for from VW without ordering them from Germany... Gordon (right, enough...) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 16:02:40 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:02:40 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <492C7600.3040805@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Two words: > > "Triumph" and "Whitworth" > > My ('70? '69?) TC100 had metric, imperial, AND Whitworth parts. Heh. I've been on a Triumph car kick for years, and it *shouldn't* have been so bad there - but most cars from the 60s and 70s have been through several owners by now, and it's usually guaranteed that at least one owner had done repairs using whatever fixings they had laying around... From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 25 16:25:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:25:09 -0800 Subject: coating a drum Message-ID: <492C7B45.4060207@bitsavers.org> http://www.google.com/patents?id=o9IwAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=3366505#PPA1,M1 gives you the general idea. lots more patents are there the proportions of binder to gamma-Fe2O3 and other magic sauce as dispersants is of interest. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Nov 25 16:29:53 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:29:53 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C7600.3040805@gmail.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> <492C7600.3040805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492C7C61.1070707@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> Two words: >> >> "Triumph" and "Whitworth" >> >> My ('70? '69?) TC100 had metric, imperial, AND Whitworth parts. > > Heh. I've been on a Triumph car kick for years, and it *shouldn't* have > been so bad there - but most cars from the 60s and 70s have been through > several owners by now, and it's usually guaranteed that at least one > owner had done repairs using whatever fixings they had laying around... This is a really fascinating thread. I never knew that late 60s sports cars used 5" floppies. Amazing. Did such cars use core memory, or did they use the brake drums for storage? Next let's talks about sports teams that use 5" floppies, then we can talk about office jokes that may or may not use 5" floppies, and perhaps the US list members can get around to whether democrats or republicans are better for 5" floppies. Humbug. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 16:32:09 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:32:09 -0500 Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: <492C6689.9010204@gmail.com> References: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> <492C6689.9010204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > What is it? Some kind of durable acrylic? Some are epoxies, some are polyurethanes, some are alkyds. Our (ship) experience has been that the epoxy paints are the best. >From my house restoration experience, I think that milk paint might just be the toughest paint known to man. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 25 11:07:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:07:26 -0800 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, , Message-ID: <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2008 at 3:03, David Griffith wrote: > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require > considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they > too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips (an Oregon native) and he maintained that it wasn't the original design (US Patent 2046343) that was at fault, it was primarily the fault of ASC for cheapening the manufacturing process by relaxing specifications--and the propagation of inferior tools. Indeed, the screwdrivers I have that are labeled "Genuine Phillips" do seem to be quite a bit better than the generic variety. One aspect of the Phillips head not shared by Torx or Robertson/square is that it will automatically center the driving bit. The "slipping out", I believe is referred to as "camming out". While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. Fortunately, deck screws are being manufactured with the Torx head (mine were T25s) and allow for much better driving performance. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 25 10:47:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:47:39 -0800 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <492C0B7C.5050703@gmail.com> References: <831740.92417.qm@web111512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <492C0B7C.5050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492BBBAB.13503.833871A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2008 at 8:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > That claim of some drums operating at 75,000rpm has to be a typo... I can > believe 7500 - but 75,000? Ouch! Reminds me of a story that I heard from Neil Lincoln about a very high speed drum that Jim Thornton and his crew at CDC were working on for the STAR. It's been many years, but ISTR that the drum was being spun at very high speeds in vacuo on magnetic bearings or some such wild thing. Neil said it was easy to see when a head would crash even without the "ping" microphones because the observation window would suddenly grow opaque... Another gizmo thought up by Thornton for the STAR was the "SCROLL" drum. Instead of spinning the media, heads were mounted on a cylinder and the cylinder spun. A long strip of "tape" as wide as the drum wrapped the drum about 3/4 of the way around and was moved to select a new "frame" on the tape, somewhat similar to the way a head in a VHS VCR works. It didn't work so well either. Both units were described in the boilerplate for at least two proposals, however. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 25 16:58:33 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:58:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C7C61.1070707@pacbell.net> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> <492C7600.3040805@gmail.com> <492C7C61.1070707@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20081125145530.Q31436@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Jim Battle wrote: > This is a really fascinating thread. I never knew that late 60s sports cars used 5" > floppies. Amazing. Did such cars use core memory, or did they use the brake drums for > storage? Hmmmm. brake drums and brake disks would be really goood for home-made rotating magnetic storage, if only they weren't ferrous > Humbug. It sure is easy to slip into off-topic mechanical griping. Sorry, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 17:25:48 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:25:48 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125145530.Q31436@shell.lmi.net> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> <20081125124206.O23383@shell.lmi.net> <492C67E5.2040901@gjcp.net> <492C73C8.1070806@mdrconsult.com> <492C7600.3040805@gmail.com> <492C7C61.1070707@pacbell.net> <20081125145530.Q31436@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492C897C.1080407@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > It sure is easy to slip into off-topic mechanical griping. Yeah, funny how there's a lot of interest overlap between vintage computing, old cars, and engineering (and that it says in the "to" field of this message that the list is for "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts") - but let's not go there, huh? ;-) J. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 18:04:06 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:04:06 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492C9276.8000809@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Even computer companies - people that should know better, make >> mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples >> store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB >> floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb >> double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". > > > Well, calling it mb (millibyte) is clearly wrong. And the value of > 1.44Mbytes assumes you take 1Mbyte as 1000*1024 bytes, which is downright > crazy. Actually, doesn't mb imply "millibit", and mB is "millibyte", with Mb as "megabit" and MB as "megabyte"? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 18:06:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:06:26 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C753D.6030202@gjcp.net> References: <492C753D.6030202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <492C9302.40404@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > (once again, sorry Jay) > >> My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. > > Oh I have... Bloody Volkswagens with their stupid 5-lobed > Torx-like brake caliper bolts, that you can't even get drivers for from > VW without ordering them from Germany... My Audi uses triple-square for that kind of stuff. Peace... Sridhar From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Nov 25 19:01:42 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:01:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Where have all the HP3000 systems gone? Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single Model 37. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 19:16:45 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:16:45 -0500 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the > Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, > especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of > DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional > HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single > Model 37. You answered your own question. DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). HP did not make loads of 3000s. I think it is a simple population thing. -- Will From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 19:27:42 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:42 -0800 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:16 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, >> especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of >> DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional >> HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single >> Model 37. > > You answered your own question. > > DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). > IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). > IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). > HP did not make loads of 3000s. > > I think it is a simple population thing. > > -- > Will I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive for a hobbyist to run MPE... Trust me, I'd love to have a small 3000 at home and if one ever shows up, I'll snap it up if I can. They just seem to be pretty rare on the used market. Mark From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 19:52:06 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:52:06 -0500 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other > complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've > gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it > comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive > for a hobbyist to run MPE... A complaint, yes, but really has nothing to do with why 3000s are so scarce. Really, it is hard to beat the IBM AS/400 group for being disagreeable when it comes to licenses. I think DEC spoiled us. -- Will From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Nov 25 20:41:19 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:41:19 +0000 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle Message-ID: <112620080241.25527.492CB74F00042AA6000063B722007621949DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> For small pulleys, check out a hobby shop that deals in radio controlled model airplanes and cars. For small gears, try www.nwsl.com. They also have small drills, bolts, and metal rods (e.g., 1.5mm x 6"). In England, try http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/ for small gears. Bob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 25 20:45:30 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:45:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, , <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips (an > Oregon native) and he maintained that it wasn't the original design > (US Patent 2046343) that was at fault, it was primarily the fault of > ASC for cheapening the manufacturing process by relaxing > specifications--and the propagation of inferior tools. Indeed, the > screwdrivers I have that are labeled "Genuine Phillips" do seem to be > quite a bit better than the generic variety. One aspect of the > Phillips head not shared by Torx or Robertson/square is that it will > automatically center the driving bit. I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can slide out, but torx or robertsons? > The "slipping out", I believe is referred to as "camming out". > > While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive > screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. > Fortunately, deck screws are being manufactured with the Torx head > (mine were T25s) and allow for much better driving performance. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 21:51:47 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:51:47 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC> <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can > slide out, but torx or robertsons? Have you ever used these? > That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. Have you ever used these? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 25 23:32:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:32:31 -0800 Subject: Screwheads; was 5 floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <492C6EEF.22398.AEFBE84@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2008 at 18:45, David Griffith wrote: > I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can > slide out, but torx or robertsons? To engage a Torx or Robertson, the screwdriver bit must be fairly precisely positioned so it enters the head. With a Phillips, one can still engage the head successfully even if one starts off-center due to the property that both the slot and bit are conical in profile-- the bit will naturally tend to slide to center in the slot. The price you pay for this is that it's not easy to preload a driver with a screw without some sort of clip or magnet arrangement. Torx and Robertson-headed screws can be preloaded onto the bit which is one of the reasons that manufacturers like them--which is also, why, I suppose that square-drive drywall screws have largely replaced phillips-head ones. > That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. I did better than that--I used a special-purpose screwgun that releases as soon as the head is driven flush with the surface. The problem is that stainless deck screwheads are rather soft. Driving 4" #12 screws into green Doug-fir joists requires a fair amount of torque, even if one predrlls the first inch or two of the hole. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 25 23:49:59 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:49:59 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: <112620080241.25527.492CB74F00042AA6000063B722007621949DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> References: <112620080241.25527.492CB74F00042AA6000063B722007621949DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi When we ground the pulley down, we checked the rate as we ground it down. What I'd like to know is how does one pedict the effective diameter when the pulley is crowned, as in the SA800? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 26 00:13:53 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:13:53 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <158BA5A9-0E1A-4285-A22B-A5DCC78A8314@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I detest Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They always seem to strip or > 'cam > out' when you try to remove them. Philips screws were in fact designed to do exactly this. The idea was to prevent overtightening in assembly line environments. Of course, like many other technologies, they have been abused by people who didn't know any better, and people seem to wonder why they don't work very well in these unintended applications. This brings to mind what has happened to HTTP (ever wonder why interactive "web applications" are so clunky?) and email attachments (ever wonder why some attachments just never get through?)...it's the same sort of problem. > My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. My two favorites are hex-head and Torx. But my nemesis is the flat-head screw. I'll take even Philips over flat-head screws anytime. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 00:16:03 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:16:03 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: References: <112620080241.25527.492CB74F00042AA6000063B722007621949DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net>, Message-ID: <492C7923.123.B1796EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2008 at 21:49, dwight elvey wrote: > When we ground the pulley down, we checked the rate as > we ground it down. What I'd like to know is how does one > pedict the effective diameter when the pulley is crowned, > as in the SA800? I measured the pulley across its widest part (i.e. top of the crown). My (perhaps flawed) logic was that it was the highest part of the crown that determined the speed. Were it otherwise, the speed would be related to the width of the belt. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 26 00:20:13 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:20:13 -0800 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125160331.63746564C1@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20081125160331.63746564C1@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: Hi I've not had the same problems with stripping or slipping when using a good driver of the right size for the screw. Most of the time I see people using a #1 philips where they should be using a #2. I also see many with cheap drivers that the tip has obviously failed. Dwight > From: bpope at wordstock.com > > And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith >> >> Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips >> screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require >> considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they >> too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > is known as a "Robertson". > > Cheers, > > Bryan > _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_access_112008 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 00:33:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:33:28 -0800 Subject: Screwheads, was: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <158BA5A9-0E1A-4285-A22B-A5DCC78A8314@neurotica.com> References: , <158BA5A9-0E1A-4285-A22B-A5DCC78A8314@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <492C7D38.1734.B2788E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2008 at 1:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > My two favorites are hex-head and Torx. But my nemesis is the > flat-head screw. I'll take even Philips over flat-head screws anytime. Dave, do you mean "flat head"? I know that I've got a bunch of phillips flat-head screws in my hellbox. http://www.engineersedge.com/phillips_flat_head.htm Cheers, Chuck From micheladam at theedge.ca Wed Nov 26 01:46:40 2008 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:46:40 -0700 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) Message-ID: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to interface to an MFM controller? Michel Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:38 am Subject: Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > On Aug 18, 2008, at 10:26 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > > I'll hunt for mice. I don't think I kept a spare, but if I did, > > I'll let you know. > > [old message referring to 3B1 mice, I couldn't find mine] > > I found my 3B1 mice. I hope to get the machine running soon, > but > I seem to have a shortage of functional MFM drives. Ugh. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Nov 26 03:35:55 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:35:55 +0000 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <492D187B.8020909@gjcp.net> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to interface to an MFM controller? > > Michel Adam I'm not sure how that would work. Do you mean replacing an existing MFM disk with a SCSI disk? MFM basically presents a signal from the disk heads to the controller board. It's up to the disk controller on the MFM controller board to do all the data slicing, bit decoding and so on, and eventually turn the signal from the disk into a stream of bytes presented to the host CPU. Modern SCSI disks basically do all that for you - you send it a command ("Give me sector 136") and it returns with a bunch of bytes from that sector. IDE is practically the same, with a simpler protocol and simpler physical interface (PATA is just a fast parallel port, and it doesn't really *need* to be fast. You can hook an IDE disk to *anything*). Old SCSI disks used to have an MFM or RLL drive with a controller board that had all the clever stuff on it. On most drive built in the last 20 years, it's all on the drive PCB. There's not really a way to get the MFM signal back from the data presented on the SCSI connector. Gordon From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 04:00:44 2008 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:00:44 +1100 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <492D187B.8020909@gjcp.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:35 PM Subject: Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: >> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to >> interface to an MFM controller? >> >> Michel Adam > > I'm not sure how that would work. Do you mean replacing an existing MFM > disk with a SCSI disk? Wasn't there such a thing for the Atari ST ? Something is itching in the back of my brain. Lance From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Nov 26 04:20:17 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:20:17 +0100 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting micheladam at theedge.ca: Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to interface to an MFM controller? Michel Adam We are working on a MFM <-> IDE bridge. But no release date so far, not enough time to finish it up :( Cheers From steve at cosam.org Wed Nov 26 05:50:02 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:50:02 +0100 Subject: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words In-Reply-To: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> Message-ID: <95838e090811260350wacb96a2yb2e598be301af884@mail.gmail.com> 2008/7/19 Ethan Dicks : > Thinking back to the early days of the 'net, does anyone happen > to have an electronic copy of the article describing the > construction of the "BBN 1822" async interface that was used to > connect PDP-11s to an IMP? > > Here's a link to the abstract of the original article: > > Ever get any answers to this? I'm looking for the same documentation. BBN 1822 is on bitsavers but only includes high level schematics of the recommended implementation. Cheers, Steve From robo58 at optonline.net Wed Nov 26 07:27:11 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:27:11 -0500 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> <492A7229.5621.32BC4D7@cclist.sydex.com> <20081124113922.A53673@shell.lmi.net> <492B0CB3.70302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301c94fca$b04e2830$10ea7890$@net> Hi Folks, Thanks for all the suggestions. They are wonderful. I am looking for either a replacement motor or a smaller pulley. Thanks for the www.smallparts.com suggestion, a new source for items (and the warning about checking stock). Happy Thanksgiving Robo From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 07:38:28 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:38:28 -0600 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <492D187B.8020909@gjcp.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <492D187B.8020909@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <492D5154.1010705@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: >> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk >> to interface to an MFM controller? >> >> Michel Adam > > I'm not sure how that would work. Do you mean replacing an existing MFM > disk with a SCSI disk? It's been talked about at various times on the list here... It needs high-speed sampling of the MFM data at the track level into buffer memory, and some smarts to translate the buffer memory into blocks on the drive. It *could* be done, but nobody's made it work yet AFAIK. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 07:49:14 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:49:14 -0600 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492D53DA.1070909@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> OR, . . . >>> modify your disk controller to run at a differnt bit rate >> The motor's just a simple AC-driven affair, is it not? Replacing with a >> similar motor of the correct frequency would be another option, assuming that > > A clever trick if you can do it!. > > You can't get jeut any speed from such a motor. Yeah, I was rather posting when half asleep :-( I suspect there might be a reasonable degree of commonality in small motor designs, but I think you're right - there's no guarantee that all small motors of a given design voltage / frequency will run at the same speed... (at least, alternator frequency is dependent on RPM and pole count, so the RPM for a motor is presumably dependent upon frequency and pole count) >> I'm going to run into the same issue as the OP sometime, as I have a pair of >> SA800's to bring over to the US at some stage - I believe the spindle motor >> portion's exactly the same between the 800 and 801. > > I thought the 800 and 801 were essentially the same drive anyway. The > spindle motor should tbe the same in the 850 series (double sided) too. Yep, I think my brain was mixing 801 and 850 up :-) (without checking, I believe the 80x drives are single-sided, and the 85x are double-sided variants - and the xx1 drives have some extra smarts on-board). I suspect there's a high degree of commonality between them all, particularly in the spindle drive (the double-sided drives presumably have some extra guts related to the second head) cheers Jules From toby at coreware.co.uk Wed Nov 26 10:46:02 2008 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:46:02 +0000 Subject: Mystery paper tape reader Message-ID: <1227717962.2846.217.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Hi, I was digging through my collection at the weekend and came across this paper tape reader(?). Can anyone help me identfy it? I've put some pictures up on my blog here: http://www.pdp8.co.uk/2008/11/26/mystery-paper-tape-reader/ It is labelled on the front as a ?Paper Tape Comparator?. It has an optical array for scanning the tape and an adjustable width feeder to support 3 different sizes. I can't find any indication of its make which makes me wonder if its scratch built with bits from another device. On the back is a female 25 pin D socket which I assume to be an RS232 outlet. There is also a 3 pin power socket in a format I don?t recognise. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 26 11:35:03 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:35:03 -0500 Subject: MITS Disk Boot Loader manual Message-ID: All: I?m working on adding support in the Altair32 Emulator for directly reading WAV file samples of audio cassettes. Initially, I?m working with the 88-ACR but it should be a snap to modify that code to support the KCS. A WAV sample sent to me by the person who asked me to look into adding this capability is a cassette from 1977 called the MITS Disk Boot Loader. I?ve known this to be usually distributed on PROM, but I guess if you didn?t have a PROM board, the cassette makes sense. I actually have the source and ROM binary already because I use it for the floppy disk support in the Altair32. Anyway, me and a buddy of mine are starting to parse the WAV samples and it would help greatly if we could get a copy of the manual for the DBL. The owner of the tape doesn?t have it. What I?m really looking for is the toggle loader or whatever was used to bring the DBL in from cassette. If anyone has it and would be willing to scan it for me, I?d appreciate it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From mc at media.mit.edu Wed Nov 26 12:18:57 2008 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:18:57 -0500 Subject: RX01 missing felt pad, repair advice In-Reply-To: <200811261800.mAQI0t70039677@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811261800.mAQI0t70039677@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <492D9311.8010808@media.mit.edu> The felt pad that presses the floppy disk into the r/w head fell off my RX01 (or whatever dual floppy drive is actually inside a DECmate model III (a late edition of 6120-based PDP-8). Has anyone tried to do that repair? What did you use for replacement, self-adhesive felt material? cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 5" floppy?. (Jules Richardson) > 2. Re: 5" floppy?. (Sridhar Ayengar) > 3. Re: 5" floppy?. (Sridhar Ayengar) > 4. HP3000 (Mike Loewen) > 5. Re: HP3000 (William Donzelli) > 6. Re: HP3000 (Mark Davidson) > 7. Re: HP3000 (William Donzelli) > 8. Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > (feldman.r at comcast.net) > 9. Re: 5" floppy?. (David Griffith) > 10. Re: 5" floppy?. (William Donzelli) > 11. Screwheads; was 5 floppy?. (Chuck Guzis) > 12. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > (dwight elvey) > 13. Re: 5" floppy?. (Dave McGuire) > 14. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > (Chuck Guzis) > 15. RE: 5" floppy?. (dwight elvey) > 16. Re:Screwheads, was: 5" floppy?. (Chuck Guzis) > 17. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > (micheladam at theedge.ca) > 18. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) > 19. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > (Lance Lyon) > 20. IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is > vintagecomputermuseum?) (emu at e-bbes.com) > 21. Re: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words > (Steve Maddison) > 22. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > motor... (ROBO5.8) > 23. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) > (Jules Richardson) > 24. Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > motor... (Jules Richardson) > 25. Mystery paper tape reader (Tobias Russell) > 26. MITS Disk Boot Loader manual (Richard A. Cini) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:25:48 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <492C897C.1080407 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It sure is easy to slip into off-topic mechanical griping. >> > > Yeah, funny how there's a lot of interest overlap between vintage computing, > old cars, and engineering (and that it says in the "to" field of this message > that the list is for "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts") - but > let's not go there, huh? ;-) > > > J. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:04:06 -0500 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <492C9276.8000809 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Even computer companies - people that should know better, make >>> mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples >>> store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB >>> floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb >>> double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". > >>> >> Well, calling it mb (millibyte) is clearly wrong. And the value of >> 1.44Mbytes assumes you take 1Mbyte as 1000*1024 bytes, which is downright >> crazy. >> > > Actually, doesn't mb imply "millibit", and mB is "millibyte", with Mb as > "megabit" and MB as "megabyte"? > > Peace... Sridhar > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:06:26 -0500 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <492C9302.40404 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > >> (once again, sorry Jay) >> >> >>> My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. >>> >> Oh I have... Bloody Volkswagens with their stupid 5-lobed >> Torx-like brake caliper bolts, that you can't even get drivers for from >> VW without ordering them from Germany... >> > > My Audi uses triple-square for that kind of stuff. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:01:42 -0500 (EST) > From: Mike Loewen > Subject: HP3000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > Where have all the HP3000 systems gone? > > Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the > Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business > environment, especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can > find loads of DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, > the occasional HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years > was a single Model 37. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:16:45 -0500 > From: "William Donzelli" > Subject: Re: HP3000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > >> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, >> especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of >> DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional >> HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single >> Model 37. >> > > You answered your own question. > > DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). > IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). > IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). > HP did not make loads of 3000s. > > I think it is a simple population thing. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:42 -0800 > From: "Mark Davidson" > Subject: Re: HP3000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:16 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >>> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, >>> especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of >>> DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional >>> HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single >>> Model 37. >>> >> You answered your own question. >> >> DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). >> IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). >> IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). >> HP did not make loads of 3000s. >> >> I think it is a simple population thing. >> >> -- >> Will >> > > I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other > complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've > gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it > comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive > for a hobbyist to run MPE... > > Trust me, I'd love to have a small 3000 at home and if one ever shows > up, I'll snap it up if I can. They just seem to be pretty rare on the > used market. > > Mark > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:52:06 -0500 > From: "William Donzelli" > Subject: Re: HP3000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > >> I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other >> complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've >> gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it >> comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive >> for a hobbyist to run MPE... >> > > A complaint, yes, but really has nothing to do with why 3000s are so > scarce. Really, it is hard to beat the IBM AS/400 group for being > disagreeable when it comes to licenses. > > I think DEC spoiled us. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:41:19 +0000 > From: feldman.r at comcast.net > Subject: Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > <112620080241.25527.492CB74F00042AA6000063B722007621949DD2020E030B040A00 at comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain > > For small pulleys, check out a hobby shop that deals in radio controlled model airplanes and cars. For small gears, try www.nwsl.com. They also have small drills, bolts, and metal rods (e.g., 1.5mm x 6"). In England, try http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/ for small gears. > > Bob > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:45:30 -0800 (PST) > From: David Griffith > Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >> I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips (an >> Oregon native) and he maintained that it wasn't the original design >> (US Patent 2046343) that was at fault, it was primarily the fault of >> ASC for cheapening the manufacturing process by relaxing >> specifications--and the propagation of inferior tools. Indeed, the >> screwdrivers I have that are labeled "Genuine Phillips" do seem to be >> quite a bit better than the generic variety. One aspect of the >> Phillips head not shared by Torx or Robertson/square is that it will >> automatically center the driving bit. >> > > I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can > slide out, but torx or robertsons? > > >> The "slipping out", I believe is referred to as "camming out". >> >> While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive >> screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. >> > > That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. > > >> Fortunately, deck screws are being manufactured with the Torx head >> (mine were T25s) and allow for much better driving performance. >> > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 26 12:22:23 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:22:23 -0800 Subject: ICL 1900 hardware documentation available Message-ID: <492D93DF.4060402@bitsavers.org> I just put up a large collection of documentation on the 1900 hardware over the past couple of days under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ict_icl/1900 Has anyone heard anything from Brian Spoor lateley? I'm concerned since his last post on AFC seems to be from about a year ago. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 26 13:06:57 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:06:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to > interface to an MFM controller? Omti made some. I already gave mine away From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 26 13:14:37 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:14:37 -0800 Subject: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words In-Reply-To: <95838e090811260350wacb96a2yb2e598be301af884@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> <95838e090811260350wacb96a2yb2e598be301af884@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Steve Maddison > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:50 AM > 2008/7/19 Ethan Dicks : >> Thinking back to the early days of the 'net, does anyone happen >> to have an electronic copy of the article describing the >> construction of the "BBN 1822" async interface that was used to >> connect PDP-11s to an IMP? >> Here's a link to the abstract of the original article: >> > Ever get any answers to this? I'm looking for the same documentation. > BBN 1822 is on bitsavers but only includes high level schematics of > the recommended implementation. You can buy hardcopy (fiche or print-on-demand) from NTIS at http://www.ntis.gov/search/product.aspx?ABBR=ADA037212 Following the clues on that page, I found the following: http://infolab.stanford.edu/TR/CSL-TR-76-116.html ftp://reports.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/csl/tr/76/116/CSL-TR-76-116.pdf Knock yourselves out! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 26 13:18:11 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:18:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > We are working on a MFM <-> IDE bridge. But no release date so far, > not enough time to finish it up :( IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT the "Portable 2") had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge board on an MFM drive From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 26 13:20:00 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:20:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20081126111855.H72377@shell.lmi.net> > > Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to > > interface to an MFM controller? > > Omti made some. I already gave mine away Oops. What I had were probably bridges to use an MFM drive on a SCSI controller From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Nov 26 13:27:58 2008 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:27:58 -0600 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033A9F74@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> It is possible to find 3000's out there..just not as many of them. There are still a lot of shops running them and with HP no longer marketing them, shops running them are often picking up spare systems and parts just in case. I don't think OS licensing is much of an issue..I believe that the OS is licensed to the hardware, so it can move with the hardware. Pricewise, 3000's often cost many times what the equivalent 9000 would cost, even though the hardware in the later systems is identical..just a little switch in firmware telling the box to be either a 3000 or a 9000. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davidson Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP3000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:16 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from >> the Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business >> environment, especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You >> can find loads of DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and >> AS/400s, the occasional HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing >> in recent years was a single Model 37. > > You answered your own question. > > DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). > IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). > IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). > HP did not make loads of 3000s. > > I think it is a simple population thing. > > -- > Will I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive for a hobbyist to run MPE... Trust me, I'd love to have a small 3000 at home and if one ever shows up, I'll snap it up if I can. They just seem to be pretty rare on the used market. Mark From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Nov 26 13:28:43 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:28:43 GMT Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) Message-ID: <20081126.112843.27554.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> -- Jules Richardson wrote: >Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: >>> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi >disk >>> to interface to an MFM controller? >>> >>> Michel Adam >> >> I'm not sure how that would work. Do you mean replacing an >existing MFM >> disk with a SCSI disk? > >It's been talked about at various times on the list here... > >It needs high-speed sampling of the MFM data at the track level into >buffer >memory, and some smarts to translate the buffer memory into blocks on >the drive. > >It *could* be done, but nobody's made it work yet AFAIK. > >cheers > >Jules Commercial products exist, for example at: www.mbiusa.com/mbi_000010.htm But I imagine they're *FRIGHTFULLY* expensive . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Enjoy the type-anywhere ease of a wireless keyboard. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1aNvZao9Vy0jrsWZZZiMWt9XzUrJ1d9LnLuUIPiJc2QoSbs/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 13:40:29 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:40:29 -0600 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 emu at e-bbes.com wrote: >> We are working on a MFM <-> IDE bridge. But no release date so far, >> not enough time to finish it up :( > > IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT the "Portable 2") > had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge > board on an MFM drive Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> MFM drive? The previous poster's saying* they're doing this the other way around: MFM controller -> bridge -> IDE drive, which is a different kettle of fish entirely. * unless they've misinterpreted Michel (or I have!), who seems to want a way of connecting a SCSI disk to an MFM disk controller... The prospect of using a more modern (whether it be SCSI or IDE) opens up useful prospects for the preservation of vintage machine where ST506/412 drives are getting pretty long in the tooth, now. I believe there are only a couple of commercial solutions out there (serious $$$), and it's a problem that the hobbyist movement hasn't cracked (except on paper) yet. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 13:44:03 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:44:03 -0600 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <20081126111855.H72377@shell.lmi.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> <20081126111855.H72377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi disk to >>> interface to an MFM controller? >> Omti made some. I already gave mine away > > Oops. > What I had were probably bridges to use an MFM drive on a SCSI controller Yeah, or SASI. Incidentally, I kept finding DoA Adaptec ACB4000 bridges - anyone else had the same issue (and is there a typical failure mode for them)? I had a few of them kicking around so just labeled the dead boards up and shelved them, thinking I might get around to trying to fix them one day. Perhaps there's some common fault that affects them, though... cheers Jules From steve at cosam.org Wed Nov 26 14:26:10 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:26:10 +0100 Subject: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words In-Reply-To: References: <20080719042610.GB27730@usap.gov> <95838e090811260350wacb96a2yb2e598be301af884@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090811261226h6d0bdaf4n162d9b231bcfcec0@mail.gmail.com> 2008/11/26 Rich Alderson : > You can buy hardcopy (fiche or print-on-demand) from NTIS at > > http://www.ntis.gov/search/product.aspx?ABBR=ADA037212 > > Following the clues on that page, I found the following: > > http://infolab.stanford.edu/TR/CSL-TR-76-116.html > ftp://reports.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/csl/tr/76/116/CSL-TR-76-116.pdf > > Knock yourselves out! > Well found! I was just about to reply to myself that I'd finally managed to track it down, too. I'm wondering whether it'd be feasible to get some kind of simulated ARPAnet running. It shouldn't be too taxing to build or simulate one of these host interfaces, but making a whole IMP from scratch would probably be more work than I'd like. Maybe one could apply BBN's modifications to SIMH's H316 simulator. The IMP software would be needed, though... I don't suppose there's a copy of that to be had anywhere? Cheers, Steve From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Nov 26 14:34:09 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:34:09 -0500 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> <20081126111855.H72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Does anyone know of a 'bridge' converter that would allow a scsi >>>> disk to >>>> interface to an MFM controller? >>> Omti made some. I already gave mine away >> >> Oops. >> What I had were probably bridges to use an MFM drive on a SCSI >> controller > > Yeah, or SASI. > > Incidentally, I kept finding DoA Adaptec ACB4000 bridges - anyone else > had the same issue (and is there a typical failure mode for them)? I > had a few of them kicking around so just labeled the dead boards up > and shelved them, thinking I might get around to trying to fix them > one day. Perhaps there's some common fault that affects them, though... You sure they are bad.... I know the ACB4000 was a different beast... it did not support all of SCSI (The identify command as I recall was one it did not). You definately won't plug it into a modern SCSI bus/ OS, and be playing with MFM drives plug and play.... Linux did have some support I believe for this... but it may not be in there anymore. SunOS obviously supported it (at least in 4.X). -- Curt > > cheers > > Jules > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 15:08:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:08:46 -0800 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com>, <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <492D4A5E.429.E48E71D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2008 at 15:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> You sure they are bad.... I know the ACB4000 was a different beast... > it did not support all of SCSI (The identify command as I recall was > one it did not). You definately won't plug it into a modern SCSI bus/ > OS, and be playing with MFM drives plug and play.... Linux did have > some support I believe for this... but it may not be in there anymore. > SunOS obviously supported it (at least in 4.X). I've got some OMTI bridges with Mac-specific EPROMs. No IDENTIFY support there either. Actually, it's not clear to me if any of the bridges supported that command. Cheers, Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Nov 26 15:29:24 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:29:24 -0500 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492D4A5E.429.E48E71D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com>, <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> <492D4A5E.429.E48E71D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <492DBFB4.8090307@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Nov 2008 at 15:34, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > >>> You sure they are bad.... I know the ACB4000 was a different >>> > beast... > >> it did not support all of SCSI (The identify command as I recall was >> one it did not). You definately won't plug it into a modern SCSI bus/ >> OS, and be playing with MFM drives plug and play.... Linux did have >> some support I believe for this... but it may not be in there anymore. >> SunOS obviously supported it (at least in 4.X). >> > > I've got some OMTI bridges with Mac-specific EPROMs. No IDENTIFY > support there either. Actually, it's not clear to me if any of the > bridges supported that command. > Not sure about MRM... or the Adaptec RLL one... The Emulex MD21 I'm pretty sure does, and the Emulex MD25A definately does. Have a 4 drive case (4 300M 5.25" FH) drives operating on an MD25A presenting them as 4 LUNs on one SCSI ID. -- Curt > Cheers, > Chuck > > From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Nov 26 15:37:51 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:37:51 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <20081125145530.Q31436@shell.lmi.net> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC> <492C7C61.1070707@pacbell.net> <20081125145530.Q31436@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200811261637.52074.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 25 November 2008 05:58:33 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Jim Battle wrote: > > This is a really fascinating thread. I never knew that late 60s sports > > cars used 5" floppies. Amazing. Did such cars use core memory, or did > > they use the brake drums for storage? > > Hmmmm. brake drums and brake disks would be really goood for home-made > rotating magnetic storage, if only they weren't ferrous Would they still retain their data, though, once you heated them up? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 26 15:43:26 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:43:26 -0800 Subject: SCSI identify command Message-ID: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> > Actually, it's not clear to me if any of the > bridges supported that command. I don't know of any MFM/RLL controllers that supported scsi inquire. ESDI was the first 5" drive interface to support geometry inquiry which is needed to make inquiry work w/o the host specifying the drive geometry to the bridge board. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 26 14:37:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:37:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Nov 25, 8 01:46:34 pm Message-ID: > > As I mentioned a week or so ago, I've just bought an HP59309 > > HPIB-interfaced clock. None of my HPIB cables will fit it. The reason is > > that it's sufficiently early to have 6-32 UNC jackposts on the HPIB > > connector, rather than the M3.5 metric ones that came later, and nobody > > has done the conversion (new jackposts). I'm not going to do it either, > > something that old should be kept original. I'll just replace the locking > > screws at one end of one of my (many) HPIB cales. > > This is a bit of a headscratcher for me. Why bother worrying about if the > screws are original? Very early HPIB stuff, I think before the IEEE-488 standard was produced used 6-32 UNC jackscrews. Later on, the jackscrews were M3.5 (metric), and HP sold conversion kits for the older stuff -- a pair of jackposts for the instruments, and a set of 4 jackscrews for the cables. UNC ones were niuckel-plated, metric ones were black oxide finish, so you could easily tell them apart. Most older instruments wrre converted (for example, the HPIB interface for my 9830 was made in 1974 according to the serial number, but has metric jackposts). So if you find one with the old UNC jackposts then IMHO it should be left as it is. Of coruse this means no modern cable will fit, hence my idea to change the screws at one end of one cable to the UNC type (I'll probably have to make these...) so as to be able to link the instrument to all my other HPIB stuff. Tghe laternative is to swap the jackposts and keep the old ones with the intrument (say in a plastic bag tucked inside), but to be honest, I'd rather keep it oirignal on the outside if I can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 26 14:48:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:48:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 25, 8 09:49:59 pm Message-ID: > > > =20 > Hi > When we ground the pulley down, we checked the rate as > we ground it down. What I'd like to know is how does one > pedict the effective diameter when the pulley is crowned, > as in the SA800? My guess is that, since the blet runs on the maximum diameter part of the pulley (the point of crowning being to keep the belt on), then taking the maximum diamaeter should be OK for this. Thinking about it, should the ratio of diamaters of the spindle flywheel and the motor pulley be the same for all positions across the width of the belt? In other words should the (larger diameter) flywheel have a steeper crowing angle than the motor pulley? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 26 14:50:34 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:50:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <158BA5A9-0E1A-4285-A22B-A5DCC78A8314@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 26, 8 01:13:53 am Message-ID: > > On Nov 25, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I detest Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They always seem to strip or > > 'cam > > out' when you try to remove them. > > Philips screws were in fact designed to do exactly this. The idea > was to prevent overtightening in assembly line environments. Of Oh for %deity's sake!. There exist things called torque screwdrivers for this problem. And yes I have one. Using the cam-out of a phillips screw for this is a kludge at best. It doesn't happen at a precise torque (it depeds -- a lot -- on the azial force applied to the tool), it damages the tool, and it damages the screw head making it difficult to remove later. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 26 14:58:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:58:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <492D53DA.1070909@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 26, 8 07:49:14 am Message-ID: > I suspect there might be a reasonable degree of commonality in small motor > designs, but I think you're right - there's no guarantee that all small motors > of a given design voltage / frequency will run at the same speed... (at least, No, there isn't, but equally, you can't get just any speed you like. Given that there has to be an even number of poles, you are limited to motor speeds which are of the form 3000/n (n an integer) on 50Hz mains and 3600/n on 60Hz mains. This is for a synchronous motor -- an induction motor will run a little slower, there has to be some 'slip' between the rotating magnetic field in the stator and the mechanical rotation of the rotor to cause the necessary current to be induced in the latter. For example, a 4 pole synchronous motor (on 50Hz) will turn at 1500rpm, an 4 pole induction motor might turn at 1425 rpm or so. > alternator frequency is dependent on RPM and pole count, so the RPM for a > motor is presumably dependent upon frequency and pole count) Of course. It's pretty obvious why when you think how these motors actually work. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 16:18:09 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:18:09 -0600 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126110613.H72377@shell.lmi.net> <20081126111855.H72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA703.4010502@gmail.com> <492DB2C1.3020200@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <492DCB21.8000200@gmail.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Incidentally, I kept finding DoA Adaptec ACB4000 bridges - anyone else >> had the same issue (and is there a typical failure mode for them)? I >> had a few of them kicking around so just labeled the dead boards up >> and shelved them, thinking I might get around to trying to fix them >> one day. Perhaps there's some common fault that affects them, though... > > You sure they are bad.... Yeah, I tested against good boards in a vintage setup (with and without swapping in ROMs from a working board). The only other possibility would be that the timing constraints changed vastly between different board revisions and that was tripping me up. > You definately won't plug it into a modern SCSI bus/ > OS, and be playing with MFM drives plug and play.... Been there, done that :-) I did have a brief muck around with that a few years back, but the Linux SCSI code is rather spaghetti-like. the boards I believe will work - but from what I recall, Linux marks anything offline that doesn't respond to the Inquiry command and then won't let you go near it. I suspect that the HBA doesn't care, so long as the board is SCSI rather than single-target SASI - and in theory it might be possible to hack the Linux kernel to not offline the board at boot time (and then be able to throw commands at it post-boot via the sg interface). > Linux did have > some support I believe for this... but it may not be in there anymore. Not sure - it did have support for a few ST506 boards once (not sure if that's still true), and there was some "third party" code for supposedly driving one of the OMTI bridge boards - but it was written against such an old kernel that there was no hope of integrating it with a reasonably modern one. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 16:24:34 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:24:34 -0600 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Actually, it's not clear to me if any of the > > bridges supported that command. > > I don't know of any MFM/RLL controllers that supported scsi inquire. Nor me. The way I understand it, there was SASI, then there was "early SCSI", and then eventually the Inquiry command crept in and became part of the Common Command Set. All the bridge boards I've seen are from the SASI or early SCSI days... > ESDI was the first 5" drive interface to support geometry inquiry > which is needed to make inquiry work w/o the host specifying > the drive geometry to the bridge board. Although as I recall the Adaptec reserves the first track of the drive in order to store geometry info, which the user supplies at format-time; it just lacks the Inquiry command itself, even though the necessary smarts are there (at least for a formatted drive). I think *technically* it might be possible to add Inquiry into the Adaptec's firmware, but in reality it'd be a pig of a job unless someone magically has firmware source and the necessary compilation environment :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 10:38:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:38:14 -0800 Subject: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, Message-ID: <492D0AF6.26683.D513904@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2008 at 21:00, Lance Lyon wrote: > Wasn't there such a thing for the Atari ST ? Something is itching in the > back of my brain. Other way 'round for the ST. The ST had a SCSI-like interface (ACSI) and there were adapters to allow use of MFM drives for it. On my old 540ST, I constructed one using a stock OMTI bridge and some added logic to adapt the SCSI signals to ACSI. Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Wed Nov 26 17:07:32 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:07:32 -0800 Subject: What's a LK207-EE ? Message-ID: <002101c9501b$c37c6ba0$4a7542e0$@com> I give up - what's a LK207-EE? http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/LK207-EE.JPG It's clearly a cousin to the LK201; it has the same keys as a LK201 but with a different physical arrangement. The paper labels stuck on the keycaps would make me think that it was used in some kind of stock broker application, but I've never seen or heard of anything like it before. Bob From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Wed Nov 26 17:39:50 2008 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:39:50 -0500 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Nor me. The way I understand it, there was SASI, then there was "early > SCSI", and then eventually the Inquiry command crept in and became > part of the Common Command Set. All the bridge boards I've seen are > from the SASI or early SCSI days... The INQUIRY command is listed in what I assume is the original SCSI standard (ANSI X3.131-1986). It is given this notation: "Command implementation is required for SCSI devices that support device-independent self-configuring software." So the standard gave it somewhat more than "optional" status, implying that this would be the standard way for a device to send its configuration data to the driver software, if it wanted to. How soon devices and drivers started to use this is another matter. -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Wed Nov 26 17:51:08 2008 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:51:08 -0500 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com> <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <492DE0EC.4090000@blueskystudios.com> Richard Hadsell wrote: > The INQUIRY command is listed in what I assume is the original SCSI > standard (ANSI X3.131-1986). It is given this notation: "Command > implementation is required for SCSI devices that support > device-independent self-configuring software." So the standard gave > it somewhat more than "optional" status, implying that this would be > the standard way for a device to send its configuration data to the > driver software, if it wanted to. > > How soon devices and drivers started to use this is another matter. P.S.: I just found "The SCSI Bench Reference" (c) 1989, which uses information from the draft SCSI-2 standard. In this doc it indicates that the INQUIRY is mandatory, and it spells out the format for standard data and defines some types of vendor-specific Vital Product Data. -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Nov 26 18:02:13 2008 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:02:13 -0000 Subject: DEC Letterprinter 100 -- what are they selling for? References: <200811241303.mAOD2j3A079976@dewey.classiccmp.org> <492B05DC.5000309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <776F50F02AA640848EE74D3098B879CF@XPBOX> ----- Original Message ----- From: > Interesting. Well, my use is just for general programming printouts on a > PDP 11/23+. Is the LA75 a viable replacement for the Letterprinter > 100? The 75 isn't period to the 11/23, but my concern about the 100 is > ribbons. Ribbons for the LA75 are plentiful and cheap. > LA100 ribbons are still available. We are still running about six of them as console terminals on our 11/84 systems at work. Jim. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 18:05:43 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:05:43 -0600 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org> <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com> <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <492DE457.8050204@gmail.com> Richard Hadsell wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Nor me. The way I understand it, there was SASI, then there was "early >> SCSI", and then eventually the Inquiry command crept in and became >> part of the Common Command Set. All the bridge boards I've seen are >> from the SASI or early SCSI days... > The INQUIRY command is listed in what I assume is the original SCSI > standard (ANSI X3.131-1986). Hmm. I just checked a ROM dump from one of the ACB4000's and that's dated 1983, so a few years prior to that ANSI standard. I think that standard does include the CCS though - it's just that SCSI existed informally (but in serious use) for quite a few years before ANSI standardization (hence the large number of vintage devices with no Inquiry) My laserdisc player harks from 1986, incidentally, and even its SCSI data interface has no Inquiry support - it was just too early, I suppose... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 18:25:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:25:20 -0800 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org>, <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com>, <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <492D7870.1844.EFCF76F@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2008 at 18:39, Richard Hadsell wrote: > The INQUIRY command is listed in what I assume is the original SCSI > standard (ANSI X3.131-1986). It is given this notation: "Command > implementation is required for SCSI devices that support > device-independent self-configuring software." So the standard gave it > somewhat more than "optional" status, implying that this would be the > standard way for a device to send its configuration data to the driver > software, if it wanted to. That's right--INQUIRY is SCSI; IDENTIFY is ATA. A lot of the bridge boards were from very early in SCSI history, where the "standard" hadn't yet set. I've got to go back to my SMS OMTI bridge board manuals, but I think the drive geometry could be obtained there by simply reading the bridge board buffer right after initialization. I'm also trying to remember if the bridge board kept the information on a reserved sector on the drive. It's been too long... Cheers, Chuck From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Wed Nov 26 18:56:38 2008 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:56:38 -0500 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492D7870.1844.EFCF76F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org>, <492DCCA2.3080508@gmail.com>, <492DDE46.7060600@blueskystudios.com> <492D7870.1844.EFCF76F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <492DF046.4030309@blueskystudios.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's right--INQUIRY is SCSI; IDENTIFY is ATA. > My SCSI docs also show a simple IDENTIFY one-byte message (codes 0x80-0xFF). -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 26 19:08:37 2008 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:08:37 -0500 Subject: RX01 missing felt pad, repair advice In-Reply-To: <200811270010.mAR0AaBt046022@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811270010.mAR0AaBt046022@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <492DF315.8030605@cimmeri.com> >From: Tim McNerney >Subject: RX01 missing felt pad, repair advice > >The felt pad that presses the floppy disk into the r/w head fell off my >RX01 (or whatever dual floppy drive is actually inside a DECmate model >III (a late edition of 6120-based PDP-8). >Has anyone tried to do that repair? What did you use for replacement, >self-adhesive felt material? > *I've not worked on a RX-01 before, but I've been keeping my eye out for suitable felt button replacements. The only thing I've seen so far as these felt pellets used in pellet guns... they come in .177 - .22 inch sizes. If you've lost the carrier as well, you've got a slightly more difficult problem. JS * From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 26 19:35:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:35:18 -0800 Subject: SCSI identify command In-Reply-To: <492DF046.4030309@blueskystudios.com> References: <492DC2FE.90107@bitsavers.org>, <492D7870.1844.EFCF76F@cclist.sydex.com>, <492DF046.4030309@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <492D88D6.13299.F3CC925@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2008 at 19:56, Richard Hadsell wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > That's right--INQUIRY is SCSI; IDENTIFY is ATA. > > > My SCSI docs also show a simple IDENTIFY one-byte message (codes 0x80-0xFF). Sure, but it's a message, not a command and its purpose is very different from the SCSI INQUIRY or ATA IDENTIFY *commands*. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 26 21:16:09 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:16:09 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> On Nov 26, 2008, at 3:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I detest Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They always seem to strip or >>> 'cam >>> out' when you try to remove them. >> >> Philips screws were in fact designed to do exactly this. The idea >> was to prevent overtightening in assembly line environments. Of > > Oh for %deity's sake!. There exist things called torque > screwdrivers for > this problem. And yes I have one. > > Using the cam-out of a phillips screw for this is a kludge at best. Yes. > It > doesn't happen at a precise torque (it depeds -- a lot -- on the azial > force applied to the tool), it damages the tool, and it damages the > screw > head making it difficult to remove later. Yes. But the design (and the reasoning behind it) dates back to the 1930s...were there in fact torque screwdrivers at the time? Even if there were, they'd still be significantly more expensive than ordinary screwdrivers (as they are now), and the motivation behind the cam-out design was (as I understand it) to allow not-so-highly- trained assembly line workers assemble things without destroying them. In such a cost-motivated environment, I expect they didn't care too much (as they don't now) for repairability later on. Which, of course, sucks the big wazoo with great fervor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 26 21:20:45 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:20:45 -0700 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> References: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <492E120D.8020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > ...uch (as they don't now) for repairability later on. > > Which, of course, sucks the big wazoo with great fervor. > > -Dave > The real problem is the lack of a quality screw. > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 26 22:10:06 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:10:06 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492E120D.8020900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> <492E120D.8020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7AC45AFD-B8F6-4B45-99EC-32EAFB97DB07@neurotica.com> On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:20 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> ...uch (as they don't now) for repairability later on. >> >> Which, of course, sucks the big wazoo with great fervor. >> >> > The real problem is the lack of a quality screw. I think that's the root of ALL of the world's problems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Nov 26 23:43:05 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:43:05 -0800 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <7AC45AFD-B8F6-4B45-99EC-32EAFB97DB07@neurotica.com> References: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> <492E120D.8020900@jetnet.ab.ca>, <7AC45AFD-B8F6-4B45-99EC-32EAFB97DB07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Step away from the keyboard... step AWAY from the keyboard... STEP AWAY.... ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:20 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> ...uch (as they don't now) for repairability later on. >> >> Which, of course, sucks the big wazoo with great fervor. >> >> > The real problem is the lack of a quality screw. I think that's the root of ALL of the world's problems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 26 23:47:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:47:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-monthly ebay grumble Message-ID: One again, I'm getting the grumbles over Ebay's policies: its impenetrable policies on how much much I pay for what, lack of protection against insane buyers, a constantly changing look and feel, and so on. I tried out chasethechuckwagon.com for selling a couple video game carts and I like it. Their whole fee structure is generous and easily explained in one paragraph. The only problem is that I don't sell that much in the way of video games. I don't know what a good alternative for classic computer stuff would be. Right now I'm looking closely at ebid. I think this week I'll run a few things there and see what happens. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 27 00:03:22 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:03:22 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 25, 8 09:49:59 pm Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> =20 >> Hi >> When we ground the pulley down, we checked the rate as >> we ground it down. What I'd like to know is how does one >> pedict the effective diameter when the pulley is crowned, >> as in the SA800? > > My guess is that, since the blet runs on the maximum diameter part of the > pulley (the point of crowning being to keep the belt on), then taking the > maximum diamaeter should be OK for this. > > Thinking about it, should the ratio of diamaters of the spindle flywheel > and the motor pulley be the same for all positions across the width of > the belt? In other words should the (larger diameter) flywheel have a > steeper crowing angle than the motor pulley? > > -tony Hi The flywheel is flat. Only the motor pulley is the only part that has a crown. When the belt runs on the pulley, the center of the crown stretches the belt a little. This is what makes the crown keep the belt centered. The stetching means that the effective diameter of the pulley is slightly less than the crown. I would guess that one would need to know how much the belt stretches at the crown in order to know how much to compensate for the diameters. The belts on the SA800s are quite stiff so I suspect that using the crown would get one close. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_faster_112008 From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Nov 27 00:03:55 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:03:55 +0100 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) In-Reply-To: <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Jules Richardson wrote: > I believe there are only a > couple of commercial solutions out there (serious $$$), and it's a problem > that the hobbyist movement hasn't cracked (except on paper) yet. The problem is, that you need serious computing power to do it the other way round (And I'm looking for an "attaching IDE or SCSI disks to a ST506 controller" solution as well) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 27 00:18:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:18:20 -0800 Subject: RX01 missing felt pad, repair advice In-Reply-To: <492D9311.8010808@media.mit.edu> References: <200811261800.mAQI0t70039677@dewey.classiccmp.org> <492D9311.8010808@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi Tim One can get felt material from most hobby stores that sell kraft items. If it were me, I'd use some contact cement. It doesn't tend to soak into fabrics that much so it should work well on a felt pad. Make sure to get it flat. If angled too much, you'll get errors. Dwight > From: mc at media.mit.edu > > The felt pad that presses the floppy disk into the r/w head fell off my > RX01 (or whatever dual floppy drive is actually inside a DECmate model > III (a late edition of 6120-based PDP-8). > Has anyone tried to do that repair? What did you use for replacement, > self-adhesive felt material? > > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Send cctalk mailing list submissions to >> cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: 5" floppy?. (Jules Richardson) >> 2. Re: 5" floppy?. (Sridhar Ayengar) >> 3. Re: 5" floppy?. (Sridhar Ayengar) >> 4. HP3000 (Mike Loewen) >> 5. Re: HP3000 (William Donzelli) >> 6. Re: HP3000 (Mark Davidson) >> 7. Re: HP3000 (William Donzelli) >> 8. Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> (feldman.r at comcast.net) >> 9. Re: 5" floppy?. (David Griffith) >> 10. Re: 5" floppy?. (William Donzelli) >> 11. Screwheads; was 5 floppy?. (Chuck Guzis) >> 12. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> (dwight elvey) >> 13. Re: 5" floppy?. (Dave McGuire) >> 14. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> (Chuck Guzis) >> 15. RE: 5" floppy?. (dwight elvey) >> 16. Re:Screwheads, was: 5" floppy?. (Chuck Guzis) >> 17. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) >> (micheladam at theedge.ca) >> 18. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) >> (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) >> 19. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) >> (Lance Lyon) >> 20. IDE <-> MFM, was> Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is >> vintagecomputermuseum?) (emu at e-bbes.com) >> 21. Re: The Day the Infant Internet Uttered its First Words >> (Steve Maddison) >> 22. RE: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> motor... (ROBO5.8) >> 23. Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's (was: Re: Who is vintagecomputermuseum?) >> (Jules Richardson) >> 24. Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> motor... (Jules Richardson) >> 25. Mystery paper tape reader (Tobias Russell) >> 26. MITS Disk Boot Loader manual (Richard A. Cini) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:25:48 -0600 >> From: Jules Richardson >> Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed >> >> Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> It sure is easy to slip into off-topic mechanical griping. >>> >> >> Yeah, funny how there's a lot of interest overlap between vintage computing, >> old cars, and engineering (and that it says in the "to" field of this message >> that the list is for "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts") - but >> let's not go there, huh? ;-) >> >> >> J. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:04:06 -0500 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> Even computer companies - people that should know better, make >>>> mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples >>>> store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB >>>> floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb >>>> double sided and 720k single sided diskettes".> >>>> >>> Well, calling it mb (millibyte) is clearly wrong. And the value of >>> 1.44Mbytes assumes you take 1Mbyte as 1000*1024 bytes, which is downright >>> crazy. >>> >> >> Actually, doesn't mb imply "millibit", and mB is "millibyte", with Mb as >> "megabit" and MB as "megabyte"? >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:06:26 -0500 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> >>> (once again, sorry Jay) >>> >>> >>>> My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. >>>> >>> Oh I have... Bloody Volkswagens with their stupid 5-lobed >>> Torx-like brake caliper bolts, that you can't even get drivers for from >>> VW without ordering them from Germany... >>> >> >> My Audi uses triple-square for that kind of stuff. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:01:42 -0500 (EST) >> From: Mike Loewen >> Subject: HP3000 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >> >> >> Where have all the HP3000 systems gone? >> >> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business >> environment, especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can >> find loads of DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, >> the occasional HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years >> was a single Model 37. >> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:16:45 -0500 >> From: "William Donzelli" >> Subject: Re: HP3000 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> >>> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >>> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, >>> especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of >>> DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional >>> HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single >>> Model 37. >>> >> >> You answered your own question. >> >> DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). >> IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). >> IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). >> HP did not make loads of 3000s. >> >> I think it is a simple population thing. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:42 -0800 >> From: "Mark Davidson" >> Subject: Re: HP3000 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 5:16 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the >>>> Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, >>>> especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of >>>> DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional >>>> HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single >>>> Model 37. >>>> >>> You answered your own question. >>> >>> DEC made loads of minis (PDP and VAX). >>> IBM made loads of minis (S/34 and S/36). >>> IBM made extra sized loads of AS/400 minis (more than any other minicomputer). >>> HP did not make loads of 3000s. >>> >>> I think it is a simple population thing. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >> >> I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other >> complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've >> gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it >> comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive >> for a hobbyist to run MPE... >> >> Trust me, I'd love to have a small 3000 at home and if one ever shows >> up, I'll snap it up if I can. They just seem to be pretty rare on the >> used market. >> >> Mark >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:52:06 -0500 >> From: "William Donzelli" >> Subject: Re: HP3000 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> >>> I subscribe to the 3000 mailing list, and there seems to be one other >>> complaint... licensing the OS. I am no expert on the matter, but I've >>> gotten the impression that HP can be a real bear to deal with when it >>> comes to licensing the OS for users. It simply can get too expensive >>> for a hobbyist to run MPE... >>> >> >> A complaint, yes, but really has nothing to do with why 3000s are so >> scarce. Really, it is hard to beat the IBM AS/400 group for being >> disagreeable when it comes to licenses. >> >> I think DEC spoiled us. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:41:19 +0000 >> From: feldman.r at comcast.net >> Subject: Re: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain >> >> For small pulleys, check out a hobby shop that deals in radio controlled model airplanes and cars. For small gears, try www.nwsl.com. They also have small drills, bolts, and metal rods (e.g., 1.5mm x 6"). In England, try http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/ for small gears. >> >> Bob >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:45:30 -0800 (PST) >> From: David Griffith >> Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> >> On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> >>> I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips (an >>> Oregon native) and he maintained that it wasn't the original design >>> (US Patent 2046343) that was at fault, it was primarily the fault of >>> ASC for cheapening the manufacturing process by relaxing >>> specifications--and the propagation of inferior tools. Indeed, the >>> screwdrivers I have that are labeled "Genuine Phillips" do seem to be >>> quite a bit better than the generic variety. One aspect of the >>> Phillips head not shared by Torx or Robertson/square is that it will >>> automatically center the driving bit. >>> >> >> I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can >> slide out, but torx or robertsons? >> >> >>> The "slipping out", I believe is referred to as "camming out". >>> >>> While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive >>> screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. >>> >> >> That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. >> >> >>> Fortunately, deck screws are being manufactured with the Torx head >>> (mine were T25s) and allow for much better driving performance. >>> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Nov 27 02:34:56 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flat screen for monochrome Sun output? Message-ID: <616033.70139.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I've been trying (unsucessfully) to get various flat screen monitors to display the output from a sun monochrome frame buffer. This is proving tricky. The monochrome fb outputs 1152x900 if I recall correctly and its proving difficult to get any monitor to sync to this. Note the output is analogue not the older ECL (?) type display. Old CRT multi-sync monitors that sync on green handle this OK. Can anyone recommend a modern flat screen that will work with this kind of framebuffer? I do have various video processing units that can scale and process the output, but I'd rather not use these as they are already in use for other tasks. Ian. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Nov 27 02:49:54 2008 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:49:54 +0000 Subject: Flat screen for monochrome Sun output? In-Reply-To: <616033.70139.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <616033.70139.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <492E5F32.1000305@wickensonline.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 silvercreekvalley wrote: > I've been trying (unsucessfully) to get various flat screen > monitors to display the output from a sun monochrome frame > buffer. This is proving tricky. > > The monochrome fb outputs 1152x900 if I recall correctly and > its proving difficult to get any monitor to sync to this. Note > the output is analogue not the older ECL (?) type display. > > Old CRT multi-sync monitors that sync on green handle this > OK. > > Can anyone recommend a modern flat screen that will work with > this kind of framebuffer? > > I do have various video processing units that can scale and > process the output, but I'd rather not use these as they > are already in use for other tasks. > > Ian. > > > > Ian, I've had good results with the output from various VAXen that generate sync-on-green signals with an Iiyama AS4637UT 18". It was produced about five years ago, features dual DVI and composite inputs. Should be able to get hold of them on the second hand market fairly reasonably. Regards, Mark. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkuXzIACgkQR0vMj/mgdjbI9wCfbvNXTOf1pDhj5nlM5JIv/rsn DfkAoJOSUlRHOufuQIdyD/XhWjwS+v34 =wzZp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 27 04:13:44 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:13:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT the "Portable 2") >> had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge >> board on an MFM drive > > Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> MFM > drive? The previous poster's saying* they're doing this the other way That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics, which means that the controller is located on the drive. Therefore IDE controller cards don't exist, and you can't bride IDE to an ST-412 interface type drive. And the (original) IDE controller is just a plain old WD1003 integrated on the drive PCB. "MFM" and "IDE" are register compatible, the programming is the same, otherwise you would need an extra extension BIOS for your IDE drives. And an IDE HBA can be built with just an address decoder and some drivers/receivers (usually 74LS245). Christian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 07:22:13 2008 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:22:13 +0000 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081127132213.qsz3ybs2gcwkkws8@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Christian Corti : > That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics, > which means that the controller is located on the drive. Therefore IDE > controller cards don't exist, This is indeed true, an IDE drive just looks like a controler chip and is addressed that way. > and you can't bride IDE to an ST-412 > interface type drive. I wouldn't say can't, but it is quite a challenge, your bridge board would need to interpret the analog signals from the MFM controler, re-assemble them back to digital, format them into IDE commands and pass them along to the IDE drive. It would also need to read the IDE drive, and then generate the analog signals that the MFM card was expecting. It's been done IIRC for floppy disks which also use MFM encoding, though probably at a lower data rate. > And the (original) IDE controller is just a plain old WD1003 integrated > on the drive PCB. "MFM" and "IDE" are register compatible, the > programming is the same, otherwise you would need an extra extension > BIOS for your IDE drives. And an IDE HBA can be built with just an > address decoder and some drivers/receivers (usually 74LS245). Yes but that requires modification/replacement of the controler of the machine, which of course may not be a PC, so the way the registers are addressed may also be unknown. Whilst asuming the bridge board idea could be implemented, as far as the computer is concerned it is talking to an MFM drive so it should just work. Cheers, Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Nov 27 07:56:19 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:56:19 -0500 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> I believe there are only a >> couple of commercial solutions out there (serious $$$), and it's a problem >> that the hobbyist movement hasn't cracked (except on paper) yet. >> > > The problem is, that you need serious computing power to do it the other > way round (And I'm looking for an "attaching IDE or SCSI disks to a ST506 > controller" solution as well) > > > While it wouldn't be universal... at least for certain platforms, wouldn't it be simpler to replace the MFM controller chip(s) with a circuit that simply accessed an IDE or SCSI disk instead ? i.e. replacing the MFM chip in an AT&T 3B1 with a daughter board that then had a 50 pin IDC header on it for connecting to a SCSI disk (or disks) ? How hard would that problem be ? It wouldn't be a universal application... would only work effectively with systems with socketed (or at least through hole) chips... but I'd think it would be much simpler, no ? Anyone ever attempt something like that ? -- Curt From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Nov 27 09:14:16 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:14:16 +0100 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20081127161416.344e8f58.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > i.e. replacing the MFM chip in an AT&T 3B1 with a daughter > board that then had a 50 pin IDC header on it for connecting to > a SCSI disk (or disks) ? > > How hard would that problem be ? The ST506 controller my system has is a so called "discret" implementation of a ST506 controller including a Z80, CTC, sRAM, 74logic and a PIO to commmunicate with the computer (datatransfer is routed through the PIO to the Z8001 main CPU). If you are interested in a pic try http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/P8000/P8000_boards/P8000_Winchester.jpg.html So... replacing this would mean capturing the parallel communication protocoll and reimplementing it for IDE/SCSI disks. Building up a MFM -> IDE bridge would be more usefull for "all" ppl. facing this problem. Or use some straight forward stuff like SD or CF cards - who needs a 500GB disk drive in ST506 systems anyway... But a universal bridge is not so easy.... right. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 09:46:32 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:46:32 -0600 Subject: Flat screen for monochrome Sun output? In-Reply-To: <616033.70139.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <616033.70139.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730811270746la72cd9u4ad7d97f298817e4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 2:34 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Can anyone recommend a modern flat screen that will work with > this kind of framebuffer? I'm not certain about the Mono signal, but I have had good success with the Samsung 191T on older Sun systems, adapted with a 13W3<->VGA cable. There is also the slightly harder to find (although there are some on ebay at the moment) Sun-badged version, the x7144. Besides a silver rather than black shell, I believe the Sun version has different firmware that correctly reports (they both correctly display) the odd Sun console resolution. -- jht From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 27 09:46:32 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:46:32 +0100 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <20081127161416.344e8f58.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> <20081127161416.344e8f58.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20081127164632.8skpyc2pnwogkog8@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Oliver Lehmann : > Building up a MFM -> IDE bridge would be more usefull for "all" ppl. > facing this problem. Or use some straight forward stuff like SD or > CF cards - who needs a 500GB disk drive in ST506 systems anyway... What we are doing is to replace more than one drive, with the same logic. So few spare GBytes ar enot that bad. > But a universal bridge is not so easy.... right. Takes time, time, time ;-) From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 27 10:03:13 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:03:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unused RK06 heads Message-ID: <17221.213.169.196.228.1227801793.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> During cleanup I found 3 unused RK06 heads, Dec partno 74-14130-12. They are still in their original box. Next to that I have a few more RK06 heads, new, but not in a box, as well as 3 or 4 RK06 servo track heads (these have an extra cable + connector). Maybe this is Dec partno 74-14130-13 ? Make me an offer. Ed From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Nov 27 11:13:35 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:13:35 -0600 Subject: Vintage-Computer Marketplace (Was Re: semi-monthly ebay grumble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492ED53F.7000108@brutman.com> David Griffith wrote: > One again, I'm getting the grumbles over Ebay's policies: its impenetrable > policies on how much much I pay for what, lack of protection against > insane buyers, a constantly changing look and feel, and so on. I tried > out chasethechuckwagon.com for selling a couple video game carts and I > like it. Their whole fee structure is generous and easily explained in > one paragraph. The only problem is that I don't sell that much in the way > of video games. I don't know what a good alternative for classic computer > stuff would be. Right now I'm looking closely at ebid. I think this week > I'll run a few things there and see what happens. > Have you tried Erik Klein's site? Besides having a fairly active web forum he has put up an auction site. With no fees ... http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ It is a little thin at the moment but we are hoping it will become the preferred place for our hobby. Mike From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Nov 27 11:16:56 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:16:56 -0800 Subject: semi-monthly ebay grumble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > One again, I'm getting the grumbles over Ebay's policies: its impenetrable policies on how much much I > pay for what, lack of protection against insane buyers, a constantly changing look and feel, and so on. > I tried out chasethechuckwagon.com for selling a couple video game carts and I like it. Their whole > fee structure is generous and easily explained in one paragraph. The only problem is that I don't sell > that much in the way of video games. I don't know what a good alternative for classic computer stuff > would be. Right now I'm looking closely at ebid. I think this week I'll run a few things there and > see what happens. The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace (marketplace.vintage-computer.com) is a good alternative for both vintage games and vintage computer stuff. Our fee structure is easily explained in one word: Free. It's still a youngish site, of course, but the more sellers we get the more buyers we get and the more buyers we get the more sellers we'll get. . . -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 13:10:48 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:10:48 -0800 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: References: <200802081800.m18I0gbY067880@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > Where have all the HP3000 systems gone? > > Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of HP3000s, from the > Series III to the Series 70. They were popular in the business environment, > especially in COBOL shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of > DEC equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the occasional > HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in recent years was a single > Model 37. Scrap people drool when they see an old HP 3000. Full of nice easy to take apart heavy aluminum and nice bright gold plated boards. That is why there are so few of them. We had several go through our hands in the 90s. All went to scrap. I couldn't keep bobbys screwdriver off of them. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 13:35:41 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:35:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Nov 27, 8 11:13:44 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT the "Portable 2") > >> had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge > >> board on an MFM drive > > > > Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> MFM > > drive? The previous poster's saying* they're doing this the other way > > That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics, > which means that the controller is located on the drive. Therefore IDE > controller cards don't exist, and you can't bride IDE to an ST-412 OK, but IDE bus interface cards do exist. Meaning cards that link ISA (or whatever) bus to an IDE drive. For ISA, it's little more than an address decoder and buffers (I happen to be using one in this PC). > interface type drive. Sure you can. Make a PCB containing a WD1003-like disk controller. On one side, have ST412 connectors to conencto to that sort of drive. On the other, have an IDE interface -- data lines, 3 address lines, etc. In other words the original PC/AT disk controller board minus the floppy controller and minus most of the address decoder. Linked to the IDE bus interface I mentioned just now, you have a complete ST412 hard disk controller system. And the seond part of it could reasonably be called an IDE (host interface) to ST412 (drive interface) bridge board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 13:30:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:30:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <73D13E22-4D81-4E89-B0D2-62E028E278C4@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 26, 8 10:16:09 pm Message-ID: > Yes. But the design (and the reasoning behind it) dates back to > the 1930s...were there in fact torque screwdrivers at the time? Even I think such tools exited back then, but as you say, they weren't and aren't cheap > if there were, they'd still be significantly more expensive than > ordinary screwdrivers (as they are now), and the motivation behind > the cam-out design was (as I understand it) to allow not-so-highly- > trained assembly line workers assemble things without destroying Yes, but the cam-out is so unopredicatale (the sort of person who's going to overtightne the screw is exactly the sort of person who'll put his whole weight on the screwdriver to prevent it from capping out) that it seems somewhat pointless. IMHO anyone who can't feel when this sort of screw is tight but not too tight has no business owning a screwdriver! -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 27 14:15:17 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:15:17 +0000 Subject: IDE <-> MFM, was > Re: AT&T 7300/3B1's In-Reply-To: <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> <20081127070355.11a82225.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <492EA703.9030008@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <492EFFD5.9000706@gjcp.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >>> I believe there are only a couple of commercial solutions out there >>> (serious $$$), and it's a problem that the hobbyist movement hasn't >>> cracked (except on paper) yet. >>> >> >> The problem is, that you need serious computing power to do it the other >> way round (And I'm looking for an "attaching IDE or SCSI disks to a ST506 >> controller" solution as well) >> >> >> > While it wouldn't be universal... at least for certain platforms, > wouldn't it be simpler to replace the MFM controller chip(s) > with a circuit that simply accessed an IDE or SCSI disk instead ? > Well yeah. You could probably emulate the MFM controller *entirely* with a modern microcontroller, and stick an SD card in. There can't be *that* much involved in pretending to be a hard disk controller chip... Gordon From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 27 14:41:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:41:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> > >> had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge > >> board on an MFM drive > > . . . > > Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> MFM On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, Christian Corti wrote: > That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics, > which means that the controller is located on the drive. Therefore IDE > controller cards don't exist, THAT is why I put "controller" in quotes. It is NOT a "controller", it is some sort of addrress decoding and cabling "adapter". > and you can't bride IDE to an ST-412 depending on your definition of "bridge", you CAN "adapt"/"bridge" the cabling from an ISA "adapter" to a disk controller that "stands alone" (not plugged in to the bus), and from that to an ST406 drive. While you are at it, you should also point out that it is far from correct to refer to the interface of the older drive as "MFM", since that is the encoding, NOT the cabling/interface. An IDE or SCSI drive could certainly be using MFM or RLL (MFM can also be argued to be one implementation of RLL). And this thing with no moving parts that I cram into the USB port should not be called a "drive", even if Windoze sees it as one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 15:13:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:13:13 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, , <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492E9CE9.28253.13734896@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 12:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > While you are at it, you should also point out that it is far from correct > to refer to the interface of the older drive as "MFM", since that is the > encoding, NOT the cabling/interface. An IDE or SCSI drive could certainly > be using MFM or RLL (MFM can also be argued to be one implementation of > RLL). Okay, call it "the ST-412 interface", but everyone here knows what's being discussed. Exactly what "MFM" or "RLL" means, however, is more of a problem. Manufacturers of controllers varied wildly in their implementation of the encodings, address marks and checksum polynomials. But yeah, MFM is (1,3) RLL and what we usually refer to as "RLL" is (2,7) RLL, but there were ARLL controllers using longer runs (3,11)? to get more capacity. I have a question for the guys with the sharp pencils. What is the minimum satisfactory sampling rate if one wanted to emulate an ST-412 interface and have it RLL (2,7)-capable? Would 16x oversampling of the 5MHz interface be adequate? How about 8x? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 15:15:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:15:46 -0800 Subject: Bridges--Pertec-to-SCSI Message-ID: <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com> Since we've broached the topic of bridges, does anyone have a Pertec- to-SCSI bridge that they'd like to sell? I understand that these could be found in some old Overland drives... Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Thu Nov 27 15:42:10 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:42:10 -0500 Subject: Bridges--Pertec-to-SCSI In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:15:46 PST.) <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com> References: <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200811272142.mARLgA9g016218@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Since we've broached the topic of bridges, does anyone have a Pertec- > to-SCSI bridge that they'd like to sell? I understand that these could > be found in some old Overland drives... Also Ciphers. The SCSI ones were often Pertec, with a bridge board on. De From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 27 16:13:41 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:13:41 -0800 Subject: Bridges--Pertec-to-SCSI In-Reply-To: <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com> References: <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90811271413s24b2097dm4e068315012df6a5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Since we've broached the topic of bridges, does anyone have a Pertec- > to-SCSI bridge that they'd like to sell? I understand that these > could be found in some old Overland drives... > As in you have a Pertec interface tape drive you'll like to interface to a SCSI host adapter? I have a couple Chi / Computer Logics PCTD16 ISA bus adapters which I occasionally use with a couple of different Pertec interface tape drives and they work well for me. The PC using them can read and write tapes way faster than the 11/73 with a Q-Bus Pertec controller and the same tape drives. I wrote some simple real mode DOS utilities to read and write .TAP / .TPC files using the PCTD16 with the Chi TSR interface software. The last PCTD16 I got off of eBay for something like $10 but without cables which would take some effort to build and probably cost more than I paid for the board. Don't you also have a PCTD16? Have you been unsuccessful in getting it to work for you with your tape drives? -Glen From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Nov 27 16:20:02 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:20:02 +0000 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492F1D12.5030507@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> =20 >> Hi >> When we ground the pulley down, we checked the rate as >> we ground it down. What I'd like to know is how does one >> pedict the effective diameter when the pulley is crowned, >> as in the SA800? > > My guess is that, since the blet runs on the maximum diameter part of the > pulley (the point of crowning being to keep the belt on), then taking the > maximum diamaeter should be OK for this. > > Thinking about it, should the ratio of diamaters of the spindle flywheel > and the motor pulley be the same for all positions across the width of > the belt? In other words should the (larger diameter) flywheel have a > steeper crowing angle than the motor pulley? Only one of the pulleys should be crowned. If they're both flat, or both crowned, it will throw the belt. No, I don't know why. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 17:19:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:19:47 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: <492F1D12.5030507@gjcp.net> References: , <492F1D12.5030507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <492EBA93.12663.13E73C67@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 22:20, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Only one of the pulleys should be crowned. If they're both flat, or > both crowned, it will throw the belt. No, I don't know why. Just checked a Siemens FDD-200 here--only the motor pulley is crowned. I maintain that the speed is determined by the maximum diameter. The purpose of crowning a drive pulley is to keep the belt from wandering off the pulley; the lower parts of the crown actually play little part in furnishing drive. See, for example: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/crowning.htm Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 17:55:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:55:38 -0800 Subject: Bridges--Pertec-to-SCSI In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90811271413s24b2097dm4e068315012df6a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <492E9D82.30621.13759B45@cclist.sydex.com>, <1e1fc3e90811271413s24b2097dm4e068315012df6a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <492EC2FA.3280.1407FE86@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 14:13, Glen Slick wrote: > Don't you also have a PCTD16? Have you been unsuccessful in getting > it to work for you with your tape drives? Yup, I've got one--am running it from a PII 233MHz box. It works okay, but there's no software support for anything but DOS. I'd like to run my Fujitsu drive on a *nix box--and SCSI seems to be the way to go. Does that make sense? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 20:25:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:25:34 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, , <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <492EE61E.17400.149139E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 12:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > And this thing with no moving parts that I cram into the USB port should > not be called a "drive", even if Windoze sees it as one. Same gripe I have with a guitarist, clarinetist or saxophonist referring to his instrument as his "horn". But like "drive", it's a lost cause. What does a "driver" do? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 27 21:08:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <492EE61E.17400.149139E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, , <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> <492EE61E.17400.149139E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20081127190646.N31397@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What does a "driver" do? Do you mean the guy who controls the automobile? ("You drive; you're too drunk to sing.") or the tool that cams out of Phillips screws. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Nov 27 21:31:07 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:31:07 -0500 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <492E9CE9.28253.13734896@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081127122846.W22105@shell.lmi.net> <492E9CE9.28253.13734896@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200811272231.07362.rtellason@verizon.net> > Exactly what "MFM" or "RLL" means, however, is more of a problem. > Manufacturers of controllers varied wildly in their implementation of > the encodings, address marks and checksum polynomials. But yeah, MFM > is (1,3) RLL and what we usually refer to as "RLL" is (2,7) RLL, but > there were ARLL controllers using longer runs (3,11)? to get more > capacity. Would that be something like that Perstor "controller" I ran with for a while? Got 158M out of a pair of ST251s with that card, until the bearing noise got to be a bit too much to deal with... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 27 22:01:51 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:01:51 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <200811272231.07362.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca>, <492E9CE9.28253.13734896@cclist.sydex.com>, <200811272231.07362.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <492EFCAF.13614.14E9799A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 22:31, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Would that be something like that Perstor "controller" I ran with for a while? > Got 158M out of a pair of ST251s with that card, until the bearing noise got > to be a bit too much to deal with... Perstor was certainly one, and I think there were others. ISTR that it was pretty finicky about drive selection--more so than RLL (2,7) controllers. Sometimes it wasn't the bearing noise that got to you. Dragging spindle brakes could raise a racket, as could the copper grounding spring at the end of the spindle. Many folks just tossed one or the the other into the circular file to cure the noise. And then some "MFM" drives were just plain noisy, such as the Atasi/Priam FH units. I put an Atasi 120MB drive in a unit a couple of months ago and pulled it out after about a week of putting up with the noise. I replaced it with a 760MB Miniscribe ESDI. Much better. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 27 22:38:06 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:38:06 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes. But the design (and the reasoning behind it) dates back to >> the 1930s...were there in fact torque screwdrivers at the time? Even > > I think such tools exited back then, but as you say, they weren't and > aren't cheap Yes. :-( >> if there were, they'd still be significantly more expensive than >> ordinary screwdrivers (as they are now), and the motivation behind >> the cam-out design was (as I understand it) to allow not-so-highly- >> trained assembly line workers assemble things without destroying > > Yes, but the cam-out is so unopredicatale (the sort of person who's > going to overtightne the screw is exactly the sort of person who'll > put > his whole weight on the screwdriver to prevent it from capping out) > that > it seems somewhat pointless. > > IMHO anyone who can't feel when this sort of screw is tight but not > too > tight has no business owning a screwdriver! I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a descriptive term that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the world, and suits like to hire cheap labor so they can pocket larger profits. Do they REALLY care about the quality of construction? Of course not. I cast my vote for hex-head and Torx screws. And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Nov 27 22:39:39 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 23:39:39 -0500 Subject: 3.5" floppy jumpers Message-ID: <492F760B.10803@hawkmountain.net> I have 3 3.5" floppy drives with configuration jumpers (and 5 times as many without :-) ). Ons is a Chinon FZ-357, and has jumpers for: MD, RDY, MM, DC, and TTL/C-MOS. Another is a TEAC FD-235HF and has jumpers for: H HO, OP, LHI, HHI, and a position (but no header pins) for FG. The last is a Sony MPF520-1 which has 2 rows of 3 pins... and I have no idea what they are for. I understand some abbreviations... RDY (ready), DC (disk change), but not MD, MM, TTL/C-MOS (assuming this is for interface logic levels?), and the TEAC ones I don't know at all. The Sony one is a mystery, and a google search hasn't turned anything up... don't know if the headers are for selecting D0-D3 only... or more than that. Can someone fill me in/point me to web pages on these 'magic' jumpers for these drives ? Thanks, -- Curt From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 28 00:32:25 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:32:25 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: <492EBA93.12663.13E73C67@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <492F1D12.5030507@gjcp.net> <492EBA93.12663.13E73C67@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 27 Nov 2008 at 22:20, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > >> Only one of the pulleys should be crowned. If they're both flat, or >> both crowned, it will throw the belt. No, I don't know why. > > Just checked a Siemens FDD-200 here--only the motor pulley is > crowned. I maintain that the speed is determined by the maximum > diameter. The purpose of crowning a drive pulley is to keep the belt > from wandering off the pulley; the lower parts of the crown actually > play little part in furnishing drive. > > See, for example: > > http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/crowning.htm > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi I agree that the bottom part usually doesn't even touch the belt but the part of the belt that is not stretched over the crown is closer to the same stretch as would be on the other pulley. I would tend to think the closest to the shaft that is just touching the pulley is closer to the speed of the belt than the stretched part over the crown. Depending on how elastic the belt was, this could be quite different than the top of the crown. Still, the belt would need to have a small amount of stretch length wise to force it over the crown. This would mean that the effective diameter was closer to the diameter where the belt was just touching and not the crown. As for why it stays on, that is simple. First, as anyone who has tried to put a belt on a moving pulley will tell you, the belt will no walk up a tappered pully. To get the crown to work, one needs to get some amount over the top. It will then center. Lets look at what happens as the belt is off center. The side that has the wider distance from the crown will be stertched less and ride lower on the pulley. The narrower side will ride higher. Because it rides higher, it will have more tension than the wider side. This will pull it back to the center. If it gets pulled too far uneven, there won't be enough tension on the narrow side to pull it back and the belt will slip off. This effect can also happen if the load is too large. These effects can be demonstrated on disk drives. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 28 02:57:19 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:57:19 +0000 Subject: 3.5" floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <492F760B.10803@hawkmountain.net> References: <492F760B.10803@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <492FB26F.4060905@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/11/2008 04:39, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Another is a TEAC FD-235HF and has jumpers for: H HO, OP, LHI, HHI, > and a position (but no header pins) for FG. See if Google can find you a document called 3fd0020a.pdf -- that's TEAC's config sheeet for the whole FD235 range. There are lots of models with different jumpers. That one is one of the dual 720K/1.44M 3xxx (old) versions. HO determines whether it outputs a signal to tell the host controller whether the disk is DD or HD, normally on pin 2. HI determines whether it accepts a density select input on pin 2. LHI and HHI are something to do with the density select input on pin 2. They're definitely related to HI, but I seem to recall having jumpers on all three on at least one drive. I'm pretty sure you jumper both or neither, never just one. I'm not sure what H on its own would be. HA tells the drive to determine density itself, from the HD hole sensor, instead of getting it from the host. Sometimes there's a number after the jumper name, like for DC. DC34 means the Disk Changed signal is on pin 34, while DC2 (on a few models) means it puts that signal on pin 2. FG is for Frame Ground; sometimes there's a jumper or solder link to connect it to the 0V DC supply. > The last is a Sony MPF520-1 which has 2 rows of 3 pins... and I have > no idea what they are for. > > I understand some abbreviations... RDY (ready), DC (disk change), > but not MD, MM, TTL/C-MOS (assuming this is for interface logic > levels?), and the TEAC ones I don't know at all. MD and MM usually refer to what turns the motor on: only when asserted with Drive Select, or any time the Motor On signal is active. > The Sony one is a mystery, and a google search hasn't turned > anything up... don't know if the headers are for selecting D0-D3 > only... or more than that. Some Sony drives have jumpers to determine when they output index pulses (only when the drive is up top speed, or always). But if you only have a few, they're probably just the drive select jumpers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 27 23:28:00 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:28:00 -0700 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <492F8160.6050302@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. > A picture of naked salesmen come to mind. :) > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 27 23:35:05 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 00:35:05 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492F8160.6050302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> <492F8160.6050302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2008, at 12:28 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. >> > A picture of naked salesmen come to mind. :) Oh no. Ben, WHY did you have to give me that image?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 28 03:59:35 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:59:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, but IDE bus interface cards do exist. Meaning cards that link ISA > (or whatever) bus to an IDE drive. For ISA, it's little more than an > address decoder and buffers (I happen to be using one in this PC). Right, that's what I've called an IDE HBA (host-bus-adapter). > Sure you can. Make a PCB containing a WD1003-like disk controller. On one > side, have ST412 connectors to conencto to that sort of drive. On the Ehm, that *is* a WD1003, because the so-called IDE interface really is a simplified ISA interface for the AT-Bus. That is why it is (more correctly) called AT-A (or ATA) = AT-Attachment. AT here means IBM AT Bus. > other, have an IDE interface -- data lines, 3 address lines, etc. In > other words the original PC/AT disk controller board minus the floppy > controller and minus most of the address decoder. Linked to the IDE bus Right. > interface I mentioned just now, you have a complete ST412 hard disk > controller system. And the seond part of it could reasonably be called an > IDE (host interface) to ST412 (drive interface) bridge board. Well I prefer to deny the existence of a dedicated IDE bus, but IDE interface is OK since the extinction of the AT-Bus. And since we're at it, I'd like to point out that SCSI drives are IDE drives, too, but noone calls them so ;-) Oh, what a world, you buy ATA drives (or even SATA) but don't have an AT bus any more. Instead you have IDE interfaces on the PCI bus (mostly integrated into the MB chipset). But SATA is more like SCSI when compared with SAS... Christian From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Nov 28 08:13:53 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:13:53 -0500 Subject: 3.5" floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <492FB26F.4060905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <492F760B.10803@hawkmountain.net> <492FB26F.4060905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <492FFCA1.70805@hawkmountain.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 28/11/2008 04:39, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> Another is a TEAC FD-235HF and has jumpers for: H HO, OP, LHI, HHI, >> and a position (but no header pins) for FG. > > See if Google can find you a document called 3fd0020a.pdf -- that's > TEAC's config sheeet for the whole FD235 range. There are lots of > models with different jumpers. That one is one of the dual 720K/1.44M > 3xxx (old) versions. Found that... doesn't cover this one (or not that I can see). Mine has 6 jumpers, not a grid, and they are : H HO OP LHI HHI D1 D0 The specifics on this TEAC are: DF-235HF 172-U P/NO. 19307321-72 Read on below for some more on the Sony drive... > > HO determines whether it outputs a signal to tell the host controller > whether the disk is DD or HD, normally on pin 2. > > HI determines whether it accepts a density select input on pin 2. > > LHI and HHI are something to do with the density select input on pin > 2. They're definitely related to HI, but I seem to recall having > jumpers on all three on at least one drive. I'm pretty sure you > jumper both or neither, never just one. > > I'm not sure what H on its own would be. HA tells the drive to > determine density itself, from the HD hole sensor, instead of getting > it from the host. > > Sometimes there's a number after the jumper name, like for DC. DC34 > means the Disk Changed signal is on pin 34, while DC2 (on a few > models) means it puts that signal on pin 2. > > FG is for Frame Ground; sometimes there's a jumper or solder link to > connect it to the 0V DC supply. > >> The last is a Sony MPF520-1 which has 2 rows of 3 pins... and I have >> no idea what they are for. >> >> I understand some abbreviations... RDY (ready), DC (disk change), >> but not MD, MM, TTL/C-MOS (assuming this is for interface logic >> levels?), and the TEAC ones I don't know at all. > > MD and MM usually refer to what turns the motor on: only when asserted > with Drive Select, or any time the Motor On signal is active. > >> The Sony one is a mystery, and a google search hasn't turned >> anything up... don't know if the headers are for selecting D0-D3 >> only... or more than that. > > Some Sony drives have jumpers to determine when they output index > pulses (only when the drive is up top speed, or always). But if you > only have a few, they're probably just the drive select jumpers. > On the Sony one, the bottom side has silscreened for one jumper S0/S1 and the Other 3/3M. So one is drive0/drive1, but what is the other ? -- Curt From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 28 09:24:03 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:24:03 +0000 Subject: 3.5" floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <492FFCA1.70805@hawkmountain.net> References: <492F760B.10803@hawkmountain.net> <492FB26F.4060905@dunnington.plus.com> <492FFCA1.70805@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <49300D13.8040300@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/11/2008 14:13, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Mine has 6 jumpers, not a grid, and they are : > H HO > OP > LHI > HHI > D1 > D0 Aha -- that first one is HHO. It controls whether the drive outputs a density signal according to what its hole sensor detects. LHI and HHI are are pair that you set according to whether you want to input an active-high or active-low density select from the controller (usually you don't). OP is normally shorted on a PC, but I can't remember what exactly it does (something to do with disk changed, IIRC). > On the Sony one, the bottom side has silscreened for one jumper S0/S1 > and the Other 3/3M. So one is drive0/drive1, but what is the other ? S0/S1 is the drive select (DS) or DS1). I expect the other jumper set may be to do with the density, and whether it determines that from the holes in the disk ("Auto") or by a signal from the controller ("AT"). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Nov 28 09:23:55 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:23:55 -0200 Subject: Hello Jay... are you there? References: Message-ID: <0f9101c9516d$5f3713e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I'm throwing out this shout to resubscribe to the list. I > successfully unsubscribed to the list from my USAP account, but have > only managed to get as far as "the moderator will review your request" > to get my gmail account back on. It's been two weeks and I've tried > twice, and still nothing. Seems you are in...Welcome back, Ethan! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 28 10:54:49 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:54:49 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM Message-ID: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org> > What is the minimum satisfactory sampling rate if one wanted to emulate an ST-412 > interface and have it RLL (2,7)-capable? 2x, assuming you regenerate the clock. With a digital DLL, the incoming clock would be on the order of 8x the maximum incoming frequency. The bitstream is not variable frequency. You can think of what is needed as the inverse of the read recovery circuit on the drive controller. The tricky part is generating the recirculating bit stream that you send as read data back from the simulated drive. It is expecting the data that it just wrote to be in the data read back on the next revolution. And you need one of these bitstreams for each head. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 11:14:58 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:14:58 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: References: , <492EBA93.12663.13E73C67@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <492FB692.13708.17BF80E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2008 at 22:32, dwight elvey wrote: > If it gets pulled too far uneven, there won't be > enough tension on the narrow side to pull it back > and the belt will slip off. This effect can also > happen if the load is too large. > These effects can be demonstrated on disk drives. But crowned pulleys work pretty much with any kind of belt. A belt operating on a cone-shaped pulley will always position itself to the largest possible diameter on the drive pulley, even if the belt's a wide flat stiff one, such as leather. While the belt may hug the smaller-diameter parts of the pulley due to elasticity in the lateral axes, most rubber belts are made to be relatively inelastic in the longitudinal axis. A belt with significant longitudinal elasticity can be unstable in a driving situation, which is why rubber bands work poorly as drive belts. We may not settle this one for certain. The sure-fire way is to measure what's going on, but I suspect the net difference between your theory and mine will be exceeding small. Still, it's fun to jaw about it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 11:34:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:34:40 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org> References: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <492FBB30.18240.17D180CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2008 at 8:54, Al Kossow wrote: > The tricky part is generating the recirculating bit stream that you > send as read data back from the simulated drive. It is expecting the > data that it just wrote to be in the data read back on the next > revolution. And you need one of these bitstreams for each head. You only need to supply one track at a time--and you can hold off the controller for any swapping you might need to do for a few msec. by delaying the index pulse. An ST-412 track (surface) holds less than a track on a 1.44MB floppy--it just spins 12x as fast. I think it's probably quite doable if there's a market for it. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 28 12:20:17 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:20:17 -0700 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> <492F8160.6050302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49303661.4080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 28, 2008, at 12:28 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. >>> >> A picture of naked salesmen come to mind. :) > > Oh no. Ben, WHY did you have to give me that image?! > > -Dave > Well I am sure all the lonely housewives would now want to see the vacum cleaner salesman at the door. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 14:56:37 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <20081127190646.N31397@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 27, 8 07:08:55 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What does a "driver" do? > > Do you mean the guy who controls the automobile? > ("You drive; you're too drunk to sing.") > > or the tool that cams out of Phillips screws. And is a 'bus drier' the man who was sitting in front and to the right of me on RM1933 today, or is it a 7417 in the HP6940B that's currently on my bench? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 15:01:57 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 27, 8 11:38:06 pm Message-ID: > > IMHO anyone who can't feel when this sort of screw is tight but not > > too > > tight has no business owning a screwdriver! > > I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a This is hardly difficult!. I suspect I could do it before I even went to school (I had a misspent shildhood, taking things apart and putting them toegtehr again, I've not changed much :-)). The reminded ms of a story my parents told me. When they bought their first house, just after getting maried (and thus before I was born), they heard that the plumber had made sure the taps on the washbasins in the bathrooms were tight. He'd tightened every one until he heard the 'crack' (!). Or the old instructions for fitting the deflection yoke on a CRT. Tighten the clamp until the CRT implodes, then back off 1/4 of a turn :-) > descriptive term that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the > world, and suits like to hire cheap labor so they can pocket larger > profits. Do they REALLY care about the quality of construction? Of > course not. And then they wonder why they get no repeat customers and why their profits have fallen. But of course such people can't see beyond the next balance sheet ;-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 15:06:56 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:06:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.5" floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <492FB26F.4060905@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 28, 8 08:57:19 am Message-ID: > > On 28/11/2008 04:39, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > > Another is a TEAC FD-235HF and has jumpers for: H HO, OP, LHI, HHI, > > and a position (but no header pins) for FG. > > See if Google can find you a document called 3fd0020a.pdf -- that's > TEAC's config sheeet for the whole FD235 range. There are lots of One annoying thing about Teac is that they don't put a description of the jumpers in the service manual (I have several such manuals for drives that I own). Why not, I don't know. > > The last is a Sony MPF520-1 which has 2 rows of 3 pins... and I have > > no idea what they are for. > > > > I understand some abbreviations... RDY (ready), DC (disk change), > > but not MD, MM, TTL/C-MOS (assuming this is for interface logic > > levels?), and the TEAC ones I don't know at all. > > MD and MM usually refer to what turns the motor on: only when asserted > with Drive Select, or any time the Motor On signal is active. > > > The Sony one is a mystery, and a google search hasn't turned > > anything up... don't know if the headers are for selecting D0-D3 > > only... or more than that. > > Some Sony drives have jumpers to determine when they output index pulses > (only when the drive is up top speed, or always). But if you only have > a few, they're probably just the drive select jumpers. In a case lioke that I'd 'buzz out' (test for continuity using the beeper function of a DMM or whatever) any connections between the jumper pins (all lnks removed , but note where they were!) and the interface connector pins. If you find pins that go, say, to the DSn pins, it's a fair bet they're for drive selection. If it goes to pin 2, it's probably soemthing to do with density selection. Pin 34, and it's ready/disk change. That may at least identify some of them. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:23:05 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:23:05 -0500 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49306139.6020607@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> OK, but IDE bus interface cards do exist. Meaning cards that link ISA >> (or whatever) bus to an IDE drive. For ISA, it's little more than an >> address decoder and buffers (I happen to be using one in this PC). > > Right, that's what I've called an IDE HBA (host-bus-adapter). You're mixing your terminology. A bus doesn't really come into play here. Peace... Sridhar From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Nov 28 15:27:47 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:27:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nice Amiga 1000 system for sale Message-ID: See the following forwarded message. If you're interested then contact me and I'll pass on the e-mail address. I don't want to expose it to the world which is why I'm expunging it in this posting. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:25:06 -0500 From: Budman To: sellam at vintage.org Subject: amiga 1000 computer Hi: My name is Joan Curtis. I live in Huntsville, Ont. Canada. I have an Amiga 1000 computer in original box with a compatible printer (Star NX-10) in original box. Plus I have Books -User Guides -(Binder) Book - Amiga Enhancer Software Featuring Amiga Dos Version 1.2 Kickstart 1.2 Extras 1.2 Includes Revised Amiga Basic and PC Utilities. Also the book - Amiga Dos Inside and Out. Also a book - An in-depth guide to Amiga Dos and the CLI. I also have Magazines - Creative Computing 1985 - Commodore Business and Amiga User 1986 - Amiga World 1987 - Amiga World 1988 - Amiga Users Guide 1989 - Amiga +Plus 1990. I also have 7 games - Sky Fox - Rogue - Hardball - Borrowed Time - Mind Shadow - The Faery Tale Adventure - and Dejavu. There are also 43 discs with case to hold them. I saw an article in the Toronto Star in Feb. 16, 2003. Would like to sell this collection, but do not know how to go about it. --- -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 28 15:43:23 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:43:23 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <49303661.4080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> <492F8160.6050302@jetnet.ab.ca> <49303661.4080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9608F867-0749-4B51-9E69-020A9F89345A@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2008, at 1:20 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>> And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. >>>> >>> A picture of naked salesmen come to mind. :) >> >> Oh no. Ben, WHY did you have to give me that image?! >> > Well I am sure all the lonely housewives would now want to see the > vacum cleaner salesman at the door. > ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:46:05 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:46:05 -0500 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a descriptive term > that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the world, and suits like to hire > cheap labor so they can pocket larger profits. Do they REALLY care about > the quality of construction? Of course not. Of course, we "thinking people" have proved time and time again that we are completely incapable of running a business. Thinking Machines, anyone? Suits are required, like it or not. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 28 15:48:42 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:48:42 -0700 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4930673A.7070508@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a descriptive term >> that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the world, and suits like to hire >> cheap labor so they can pocket larger profits. Do they REALLY care about >> the quality of construction? Of course not. >> > > Of course, we "thinking people" have proved time and time again that > we are completely incapable of running a business. > > Thinking Machines, anyone? > > Suits are required, like it or not. > > -- > Will > I would say Quicker rather than Larger profits. Most products have a small product margin now days. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 28 15:50:57 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:50:57 -0700 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <5FAF9E31-2AA4-4840-A982-519429F6AB68@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <493067C1.3070002@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a descriptive term >> that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the world, and suits like to hire >> cheap labor so they can pocket larger profits. Do they REALLY care about >> the quality of construction? Of course not. >> > > Of course, we "thinking people" have proved time and time again that > we are completely incapable of running a business. > > > What scares me is $29.99 for new DVD's and $29.95 for the cheap ( non-blueray player). > -- > Will > > From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Nov 28 18:35:39 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:35:39 -0500 Subject: Ideas on how to archive my CP/M files currently on 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <000c01c8ae32$0e267ba0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000c01c8ae32$0e267ba0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <006501c951ba$672e1510$358a3f30$@net> I recently pulled out all my old Z80 home-brew hardware and stash of 8" CP/M floppies. I was surprised to find that they still booted (with some errors) which got me thinking about how to archive them onto something with more longevity. I was considering adding an IDE interface but I'm not sure my existing media is reliable enough to go through development without risking the loss of more floppies. I'm wondering how the CP/M users in this group have handled the issue. Thanks Robo From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 28 18:56:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:56:15 -0800 Subject: Ideas on how to archive my CP/M files currently on 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <006501c951ba$672e1510$358a3f30$@net> References: <000c01c8ae32$0e267ba0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop>, <006501c951ba$672e1510$358a3f30$@net> Message-ID: <493022AF.6900.1965B99F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2008 at 19:35, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I'm wondering how the CP/M users in this group have handled the issue. For the stuff I need to be saved, I've taken the files and burned them onto CD-R. For bootable media where the physical disk layout's important, I've imaged them and burned the images. I figure that floppies aren't forever. Neither are CDs, but maybe they'll last longer. At least there's less variation in the respresentation of files on the CD medium. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 28 19:24:50 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 01:24:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492C9276.8000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <238003.92072.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware of the difference between Mb and MB. The one thing that annoys me is the mixing up of using "disc" and "disk". Floppies are disks (short for diskettes), not discs. Discs are usually CD's, or vinyl records (though I have never heard them called a vinyl discs). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 26/11/08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, 26 November, 2008, 12:04 AM Actually, doesn't mb imply "millibit", and mB is "millibyte", with Mb as "megabit" and MB as "megabyte"? Peace... Sridhar From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Nov 28 19:53:32 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:53:32 -0500 Subject: Free DEC Digital Equipment box (Computer) Message-ID: Here's a DEC computer I'm tossing out. Don't know anything about it. Can't find any model numbers on it. You can have it free, just pay for shipping plus a buck or two for packing stuff. It's small so I would expect it to cost too much. What you see is what you get. Computer only. USA only please. Rob ps. Some pics http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box1.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box2.jpg pss. Nope. Didn't bother putting it on ebay. Not worth my time to test and such. From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 19:58:34 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: Free DEC Digital Equipment box (Computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3530220811281758o16d7a987s22d5a44d93a28e85@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Here's a DEC computer I'm tossing out. Don't know anything about it. Can't > find any model numbers on it. > > You can have it free, just pay for shipping plus a buck or two for packing > stuff. > It's small so I would expect it to cost too much. What you see is what you > get. Computer only. > > USA only please. > > > Rob > > ps. Some pics > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box1.jpg > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box2.jpg > > pss. Nope. Didn't bother putting it on ebay. Not worth my time to test > and such. > That would be a DEC Multia. I have or had one in the Alpha flavor, but I believe it also came in x86. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 28 22:40:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:40:56 -0800 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle In-Reply-To: <492FB692.13708.17BF80E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <492EBA93.12663.13E73C67@cclist.sydex.com>, <492FB692.13708.17BF80E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com ---snip---> > But crowned pulleys work pretty much with any kind of belt. A belt > operating on a cone-shaped pulley will always position itself to the > largest possible diameter on the drive pulley, even if the belt's a > wide flat stiff one, such as leather. > ---snip--- Hi I've read this a couple times but practical experience says this is not true. If it were true, I'd be able to mount a belt on a crowned pulley by just holding it to the pulley and turn the pulley. I've never been able to have this happen. In fact I see just the opposite. The belt keeps pushing off the pulley, as one would expect. It just doesn't want to ride up onto the pulley and over the crown. I always have to get a small amount over the top of the crown, by force, before it will pull itself on. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 29 00:51:20 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:51:20 -0800 Subject: Free DEC Digital Equipment box (Computer) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220811281758o16d7a987s22d5a44d93a28e85@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220811281758o16d7a987s22d5a44d93a28e85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:58 PM -0500 11/28/08, John Floren wrote: >On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box1.jpg > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/ebay/dec_box2.jpg > > > > pss. Nope. Didn't bother putting it on ebay. Not worth my time to test > > and such. > >That would be a DEC Multia. I have or had one in the Alpha flavor, but >I believe it also came in x86. It could also be a DEC VT525 Terminal, but a Multia is the more likely. The Multia's were available as both x86 or Alpha based. Realistically at this point and time the VT525 would be more worthwhile. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Nov 24 14:44:53 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:44:53 +0000 Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> References: <4929F7FF.7090002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <492B1245.9080505@axeside.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> It looks like sometime in the future I may need to rebuild a damaged >> magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be too deep. As a >> brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the surface. If I use >> refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer (glue)? What was >> typically used on early hard disk platters and drums? > > Seriously? Do keep us posted... far as I know, it's not something that > anyone's ever tried before - it'd be interesting to know how you get on. > I'm not even sure how you could coat a drum in glue / oxide and get it > of uniform thickness without specialist tooling. I wonder whether you could mix the oxide with the binder first, and then have only one uniform thickness layer to apply. Incidentally, someone was mentioning nickel and its alloys. Why wouldn't nickel work alone? Hysteresis too small, or something? Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Nov 24 15:00:25 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:00:25 +0000 Subject: Arcade games Message-ID: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Just curious... There's a shop in Coalville, I'm not sure what it sells (maybe it sells games consoles; maybe it's an amusement arcade; maybe both). In the window this weekend were two machines that caught my eye: an original Space Invaders machine from 1978, priced at 895 pounds; and a pinball machine from 1979 (branded "Gottlieb") for an almost-as-unreasonable 495 pounds. (I think at current exchange rates that's about $1300 and $700 US) As I was walking home, failing to hum the Space Invaders song, I wondered what sort of an active market is there for such machines? The prices looked high enough that they must be aiming at serious collectors, or possibly innkeepers who want to create a retro-seventies atmosphere. So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? Are my neighbours of a couple of blocks away being overoptimistic with their prices? Philip. PS What I remember from the period was the many, many attempts to write Invaders-style games in BASIC on the PET and other home computers. And my friend Matthew, after we'd borrowed a Sinclair ZX81 and experimented for a week or two, shutting himself away and writing a quite good one for that machine in machine code - I helped with the BASIC shell that built the initial screen display. And wiring a phone earpiece to the PET user port to hear the sound effects on the Commodore invaders program. And so on... PPS has anyone preserved the Space Invaders song? I sincerely hope not. From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 24 22:41:25 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:41:25 -0600 Subject: Mohawk Data Sciences paper tape reader? Message-ID: <20081125044125.GC5578@n0jcf.net> This one is probably a long shot, but wondering if anyone has any documentation for a Mohawk Data Sciences model 2166 paper tape reader. The unit I have is s/n 2047 and was built by Mohawk, Montvale NJ probably in the early to mid 70's. It's an all mechanical reader with 24VDC solonoid and ratchet that advances the tape. It came out of a Control Data maintanance console for the Star-100, which sadly, as a kid, I parted out. All I have left is the cool aluminum suitcase that it was built in... and this paper tape reader. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 25 09:13:54 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:13:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811251520.KAA07052@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the >> program and start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) > As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) Um, we do - well, Canada does, at least. English screw sizes and threads are more common, at least in the hardware stores I frequent, but metric screws are by no means unknown - and a source of much irritation when, say, you think you have a 6-32 screw and you find it doesn't fit your 6-32 nut.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 25 09:20:36 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:20:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <492AADA1.15935.414B1F1@cclist.sydex.com> <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811251523.KAA07125@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips > screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and > require considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get > tiny, they too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. Actually, I once saw screws which looked a bit like Robertson (the square-socket kind) but with a triangular, not square, socket. I think they were intended as a "security" screw head; I just took a spare screw whose shaft was large enough and ground it down to make a suitable triangular screwdriver. But they'd provide substantially more positive clutching between driver and screw than even Robertsons.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 10:54:50 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:54:50 -0600 Subject: looking for an IBM 8525 Message-ID: hello, I'm trying to find a reasonable IBM 8525 all-in-one system. I've seen the ones on ebay ($200! before shipping, for a computer from the late 1980s that were in high abundance) if anybody knows where I could get one reasonably (preferrably close to illinois) please let me know, thanks! picture: http://www.recycledgoods.com/images/s_p_20127_1.jpg From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 19:07:28 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:07:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Stuff for sale, trade, and free! (Bloomington, IN) In-Reply-To: <1227556549.9914.6.camel@pazuzu> References: <1227556549.9914.6.camel@pazuzu> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Brian Wheeler wrote: > but I can be persuaded with everything else: buyer pays shipping > > I'm located in Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Things I'm looking for: > * Playstation 2 > * Amiga Stuff: A1200, A600 > * CoCo stuff: Coco3 + disk controller > * Commodore stuff: C128, 1571, 1581, C65 (hahaha) > > > Get this stuff out of my house! > Brian > > > For Sale > ========== > NeXTcube $75 > 64M RAM > NeXT Dimension Card > Color Monitor (needs 13w3 cable) > Mono Monitor > Mouse > Keyboard > Floppy Drive > no HD > > 3x NeXT Mono Video Cable $2 each > > NeXT Keyboard+Mouse $5 Will take all of the above, save the mono monitor (already have one). Please let me know how you'd like to proceed? Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Tue Nov 25 19:59:30 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:59:30 -0600 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <53D8C7880037496B82A348F2611690EB@FLEXPC> References: <49247DA8.90603@bluewin.ch> <53D8C7880037496B82A348F2611690EB@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <20081126015930.GG5578@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/24/2008 at 09:35AM -0000), Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I tripped over this page (discussing Max Burnett's collection): > > http://www.acs.org.au/ictcareers/index.cfm?action=show&conID=max > > and this part confused me: > > "A local Intel executive recently found his family tree on a 5in floppy, > but even in the citadel of chip development, anything that could read > the disk had long since gone for scrap. "A couple of clicks" and Max had > it back on a modern floppy" > > Was there a 5" floppy format? I wouldn't be surprised to find out yet > another format that I've never come across before, but I don't recall it > cropping up here. I think there were a lot of typos in that article and the captions under the pictures. When I first looked at it, one of the pictures showed someone holding up a 9" floppy. I was going to send a link to that just to keep the fun rolling on this thread... but when I went back later in the day, the caption had been corrected to say 8". Dang. That's no fun. -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 25 20:30:32 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:30:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <79C192B51E1440A1A869DE1482E975A8@FLEXPC>, , <492BC04E.27488.845A0CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200811260404.XAA12622@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips >> screws. [...] > I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips > [...who said...] it was primarily the fault of ASC for cheapening the > manufacturing process by relaxing specifications--and the propagation > of inferior tools. Certainly the latter is significant. A cheap Phillips screwdriver, made of inferior steel, will itself degrade in various ways that make it much more apt to damage screws. One made of decent steel, to reasonably tight tolerances, though, is quite a different story. > One aspect of the Phillips head not shared by Torx or > Robertson/square is that it will automatically center the driving > bit. Robertson does this if the screwdriver tip is pyramid-pointed rather than flat. (It can't be too much so, of course, or it doesn't seat well in the screw head.) > While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive > screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. I don't find it so, unless the bit doesn't seat properly in the screws. (This can be the fault of either the bit or the screw - in particular, taper on either one makes it worse. And taper is a common consequence of power-driving screws without proper torque limits - the driver twists out of in line with the screw, which forces the screw, the bit, or both to taper slightly as it unseats. And, of course, once it starts it just gets worse.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 26 23:52:40 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:52:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: semi-monthly ebay grumble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811270553.AAA27681@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I don't know what a good alternative [to ebay] for classic computer > stuff would be. Isn't that what the VCM is for? Surely you've been around long enough to have seen it mentioned - or am I recognizing you from another list? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Nov 27 09:02:47 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:02:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: References: <8e2f09442ad4.492c9c70@theedge.ca> <20081126112017.rxvbq9s9sgkowwcw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20081126111436.X72377@shell.lmi.net> <492DA62D.5070207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200811271510.KAA00232@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> >> MFM drive? > That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive > Electronics, which means that the controller is located on the drive. When this was done, the term "controller" migrated; it still (usually) refers to the hardware that goes with the machine rather than the drive. That is, the glue between the ISA/PCI/whatever bus and the 40-conductor cable (more recently, 40 conductors with 40 more conductors used as shields) to the drive (including whatever electronics may be onboard). So, I think it does make sense. > Therefore IDE controller cards don't exist, I'm sure this would come as quite a surprise to the people using them. > and you can't [bridge] IDE to an ST-412 interface type drive. I can't see why not. Bulding glue logic between two interfaces is, I think, always possible (except in a few cases where the technology isn't yet up to, say, handling the necessary data rates); it's just a question of how complicated it'll be. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 27 14:37:52 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:37:52 -0500 Subject: IDE <-> MFM Message-ID: <0KB00035BEKZ8BV2@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: IDE <-> MFM > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:35:41 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT the "Portable 2") >> >> had a pre-standardization ISA IDE "controller" that cabled to a bridge >> >> board on an MFM drive >> > >> > Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE controller -> bridge -> MFM >> > drive? The previous poster's saying* they're doing this the other way >> >> That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated Drive Electronics, >> which means that the controller is located on the drive. Therefore IDE >> controller cards don't exist, and you can't bride IDE to an ST-412 > >OK, but IDE bus interface cards do exist. Meaning cards that link ISA >(or whatever) bus to an IDE drive. For ISA, it's little more than an >address decoder and buffers (I happen to be using one in this PC). > >> interface type drive. > >Sure you can. Make a PCB containing a WD1003-like disk controller. On one >side, have ST412 connectors to conencto to that sort of drive. On the >other, have an IDE interface -- data lines, 3 address lines, etc. In >other words the original PC/AT disk controller board minus the floppy >controller and minus most of the address decoder. Linked to the IDE bus >interface I mentioned just now, you have a complete ST412 hard disk >controller system. And the seond part of it could reasonably be called an >IDE (host interface) to ST412 (drive interface) bridge board. > >-tony If I needed to go from IDE to MFM I'd go to my junk box and pull out a WD1003 (or one of the smaller versions) and fake the interface of IDE to ISA16. The two are so close its only the matter of the IO address lines to resolve them down to CS1 and CS2. Command wise the 1003 was the prototype for IDE command set. Allison From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 28 13:39:24 2008 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:39:24 +0000 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org> References: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <493048EC.2030108@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > The tricky part is generating the recirculating bit stream that you send > as read data > back from the simulated drive. It is expecting the data that it just > wrote to be in > the data read back on the next revolution. And you need one of these > bitstreams for each > head. An FPGA with a big shift register inside? Or just use some on-chip RAM (e.g. BlockRAM), a counter and a pair of 8-bit shift registers (two means you can load one while the other is shifting, and eliminate any stream discontinuities caused by the shifter reloading). It's not like SRs are particularly chip-intensive... Or you could go with a board full of TTL.... Based on a quick look at the ST506/412 OEM manual (it's on bitsavers -- thanks Al!) you're basically talking about a floppy disc data separator tweaked to run at a higher clock rate... Store a "1" if there was a flux transition in a given bit cell, or store a "0" if there wasn't. Head-switching would be a total pig unless you buffered all 8 (or 16) heads at once. 8us is not enough to ping an external IDE HDD (or say a CompactFlash or SD card) and read off an entire track of data... I don't even know how you'd be able to lock a PLL against the write data stream quickly enough not to make a hash of it. Most data separators (or at least the ones I've looked at) need a few bytes worth of encoded data to lock onto before the data window signal is actually valid... I suppose you could do what the Catweasel does and save the time between flux transitions, but that opens up a whole other can of worms when you want to write back to the disc... -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Fri Nov 28 15:41:36 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 15:41:36 -0600 Subject: OKI M3732L-20RS ram datasheet? Message-ID: <20081128214136.GB5578@n0jcf.net> Does anyone have a datasheet for these parts? I have come up empty on the web and have 24 of them and can't explain why... Most of the stuff I've had around here used 4116 or 4164 DRAMs and I kind of suspect these might be a substitute for one of those... but sure can't remember for sure. Although, by the part number alone, one might suspect they are a 32Kx1 device possibly... Any info appreciated. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Nov 29 04:14:29 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:14:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: semi-monthly ebay grumble In-Reply-To: <200811270553.AAA27681@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200811270553.AAA27681@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2008, der Mouse wrote: > > I don't know what a good alternative [to ebay] for classic computer > > stuff would be. > > Isn't that what the VCM is for? Surely you've been around long enough > to have seen it mentioned - or am I recognizing you from another list? I wasn't aware it had returned from the dead. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 29 04:48:30 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:48:30 +0100 Subject: looking for an IBM 8525 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens joe lobocki > Verzonden: dinsdag 25 november 2008 17:55 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: looking for an IBM 8525 > > hello, > I'm trying to find a reasonable IBM 8525 all-in-one system. > I've seen the ones on ebay ($200! before shipping, for a > computer from the late 1980s that were in high abundance) if > anybody knows where I could get one reasonably (preferrably > close to illinois) please let me know, thanks! picture: > http://www.recycledgoods.com/images/s_p_20127_1.jpg > Recyclgoods is never cheap if they think it is worth something. In fact they are very expensive, thet asked almost 800,- for a HP9826.. -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 05:09:29 2008 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:09:29 +1300 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> References: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Philip Belben wrote: > There's a shop in Coalville... > In the window this weekend were two machines that caught my eye: an original > Space Invaders machine from 1978, priced at 895 pounds; and a pinball > machine from 1979 (branded "Gottlieb") for an almost-as-unreasonable 495 > pounds. (I think at current exchange rates that's about $1300 and $700 US) OK. > ... what sort of an active market is there for such machines? The prices looked > high enough that they must be aiming at serious collectors, or possibly > innkeepers who want to create a retro-seventies atmosphere. > > So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? Are my > neighbours of a couple of blocks away being overoptimistic with their > prices? My experience with classic arcade games is owning a couple (Gorf and Xenophobe) and spending many hours at US Arcade Amusement game auctions a mile from my house. At auction (which is a very different environment for supply and demand than a corner shop) in the US, I have seen variations of over 100% for the same type of machine at different parts of the day (usually more expensive to less expensive, but things like nearly missing one can make for odd fluctuations). I've paid under $200 for uncommon items, and seen popular games got for hundreds to thousands of dollars. Pinball almost always sells for more than similar era video games. Vintage pins are expensive, as are modern pins. There's a soft-spot in the middle for ones that are just old and not classic. The two most common expensive machines I've seen are Ms PacMan and Galaga. I routinely see them go for $600-$1000 US, auction after auction. The folks buying those machines know that they will draw many quarters, which is the goal of any amusement operator. Space Invaders is in the same league as those machines, but is not as common anymore (if it ever was). I did see a modern 2-in-1 replica game with *both* PacMan and Galaga (licensed, etc., not a MAME box)... in a smaller-than-normal cabinet (that will fit many places, especially bars or the right kind of restaurant), it went for $2200. I don't know anything about the UK game market, but I can't imagine that the games would go for less than the US. There's shipping, duty, etc., if nothing else, and perhaps scarcity for 220V models vs 110V models. I would personally not pay $1300 US for a real Space Invaders, but consider how many paid games that turns into - in the US, it would be $0.25/game (don't know about the UK.), so that's 5200 games. To pay that game off, electricity not included, would take approximately two years at one quarter per hour over an 8-hour day. That's a long time for a low-volume environment. There used to be a good FAQ on arcade operators - how to buy games from them, how to talk to them, how *not* to talk to them. There was an estimate, in 1980s terms, of how profitable a game had to be to be worth buying or keeping. Given that coin-op per-play inflation is limited to newer and bigger games, not trying to double the cost of an older game so much, unless you gear up with customer swipe cards (like Dave and Busters) and can get people to pay 1.3 credits or whatever, a game needs massive nostalgic popularity to suck down over 5000 US quarters in a short enough time to make the space pay off. Remember, that's just 5200 games to pay for the machine, not to make a dime of profit. Operators don't think like (most of) the folks on the list. It all gets reduced down to dollars per hour/week/day. Sentimentality goes out the window or they go out of business. Many, many games do not pull in enough money to justify their existence in a commercial environment. Some do. Those sell for lots of money. There is also, as you suggest, the home collector/nostalgic angle. In recent years, home arcades have gotten quite popular. There are a few types buying for those - the hardy types will buy husks and as-is games and beaters from auctions or operators and refurb them on their own (like me - my Gorf came from 3 different sources over a 10-year period before it was complete). Others just want flashing lights and bleeping boxes and don't know how to change out a fuse. They will pay and pay for someone to sell them a totally tricked-out box. They will pay much more than an operator ever would because of sentimentality or nostalgia. I have a few games on my list I'd like to get. Space and opportunity have limited me to just a couple. Unfortunately, some of the games from my childhood are pre-microprocessor, so it's not even possible to play them on MAME. I need the real thing or to build/program my own replica. The time has somewhat passed to see games from the B&W 8080 and earlier era at auction on a regular basis, and when you do see them, they are not always in the best of shape, and if they are, they don't often go cheap. These are all older than Space Invaders. To summarize, yes, I think those games sound expensive, but not so far out as to be unbelievable. If they are targeting the nostalgia angle, they might or might not be able to get that much for them. If they are targeting the commercial buyer, they wouldn't likely get that much for them in the US, but I can't be certain about the UK. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 29 06:34:33 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 04:34:33 -0800 Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: <493048EC.2030108@philpem.me.uk> References: <49302259.8030705@bitsavers.org>, <493048EC.2030108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4930C659.17705.1BE50083@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2008 at 19:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I suppose you could do what the Catweasel does and save the time between flux > transitions, but that opens up a whole other can of worms when you want to > write back to the disc... You could even do something like a Catweasel without incurring the worms. Since there is a certain minimum time/distance between transitions, you can sample adequately by storing a byte/nibble/quantum of information at a rate only slightly faster than this minimum time. The value reflects either no transition or the time of the transition from the edge of the sampling frame. Suppose this minimum distance between transitions is 200 nsec. You need only read or store sample every 150 nsec or so. The only high- speed part of the device is a counter that runs at whatever oversample rate you're using. Start the counter at zero at the beginning of every sample frame and store the value when a transition occurs during writing; generate one using a comparator to generate a pulse if a match is found between the value of this counter and the stored sample value. I feel awkward trying to explain this with words and no whiteboard, but I hope you get the idea. No need to bother with shift registers. And no worms. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 29 06:42:35 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 04:42:35 -0800 Subject: Mohawk Data Sciences paper tape reader? In-Reply-To: <20081125044125.GC5578@n0jcf.net> References: <20081125044125.GC5578@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4930C83B.27131.1BEC5623@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2008 at 22:41, Chris Elmquist wrote: > It came out of a Control Data maintanance console for the Star-100, which > sadly, as a kid, I parted out. All I have left is the cool aluminum > suitcase that it was built in... and this paper tape reader. The maintenance console, not the Star-100, right? That'd be a big job even for an ambitious kid. All I can say is that I remember the suitcase tape readers; they were used to load code onto the drum of the MCU; they may have also been used to load CPU microcode. They probably also had uses for running diagnostic code on the stations. They were also used for doing things like loading up firmware on tape controllers and the like in non-Star applications. I'd be surprised if any documentation survived on them, but maybe some CE squirreled some away. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 29 06:44:35 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:44:35 +0000 Subject: OKI M3732L-20RS ram datasheet? In-Reply-To: <20081128214136.GB5578@n0jcf.net> References: <20081128214136.GB5578@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49313933.6040108@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/11/2008 21:41, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Does anyone have a datasheet for these parts? > Although, by the part number alone, one might suspect they are a > 32Kx1 device possibly... I don't have a datasheet but I found several equivalences in a Toshiba 1982 databook. MSM37xx designates MOS DRAM, MSM21xx is MOS static RAM, MSM51xx is CMOS SRAM, and MSM27xx is EPROM. I found the more of the same in an NEC databook, but of all the memory databooks I've got, the 1982 Toshiba is the only one listing any MSM37xx devices. OKI MSM3764-xx is an exact equivalent of a 4164, and the 2-digit suffix gives the speed in tens of ns. I'd guess that an MSM3732-20 is 32Kx1, 200ns access time, and likely consists of an MSM3764 with one half disabled or dysfunctional. If so, the 'RS' may signify which half works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Nov 29 07:33:35 2008 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 08:33:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Metric Hardware (was 5" disks) In-Reply-To: <200811291141.mATBf7D8023273@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811291141.mATBf7D8023273@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20081129133335.D5B55BA4D8C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> der Mouse writes: > >> What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the > >> program and start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) > > As soon as they start using screws with metric threads ;-) > > Um, we do - well, Canada does, at least. English screw sizes and > threads are more common, at least in the hardware stores I frequent, > but metric screws are by no means unknown - and a source of much > irritation when, say, you think you have a 6-32 screw and you find it > doesn't fit your 6-32 nut.... Metric hardware on cars - even North American built - has been very nearly universal in North America for the past 15 years. There are a couple exceptions still, like lugnuts. (Though by no coincidence the most common lug nut hex sizes on small cars are 3/4" and 19mm, and it's nearly impossible to tell whether it's metric or not by the hex size!) Strangely enough, spark plug threads in North America have been metric since the beginning of time, but the heads are still fractional-inch. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 29 09:27:25 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:27:25 -0500 Subject: dec docs and gopher In-Reply-To: <200811250251.mAP2p8es010834@floodgap.com> References: <200811250251.mAP2p8es010834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> some of you may remember that I mirror a load of dec docs at >> http://www.carnagevisors.net/dec94mds/ >> >> well I have moved my site to a new server that's a lot faster so >> feel free >> to have a good look. >> >> And as my partner and I were bored today we also have: >> >> gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds >> >> for all the text documents. Why? I say why not. > > I am delighted to see another gopher server out there. As you say, > why not? > (gopher.floodgap.com) So neat, I have to say! Do I sense a gopher revival in the offing? What server software are you guys running? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wgungfu at uwm.edu Sat Nov 29 10:52:07 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:52:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <1582433227.6233291227976982185.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <309061929.6233971227977527402.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Philip - that's a little high for the current market. Maybe five years ago that'd be correct, but now Space Invaders is around US$500-700. A game like Battlezone or Asteroids should be more in the price range he's selling it for. Gottlieb was a major pinball manufacturer based out of Chicago, and since you didn't mention the actual name of the game I can't really judge if the price is fair or not. And yes, there's a longstanding collector and "in home" coin-op market, something we also cater to at the Midwest Gaming Classic event. Plenty of forums, web sites, etc. for the coin-op collecting scene as well. Google is your friend. ;) My guess is, there's someone in their scene right now asking if some amount is a fair price for a vintage computer system and if anyone collects that stuff. ;) Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Belben" To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 3:00:25 PM GMT -06:00 Central America Subject: Arcade games Just curious... There's a shop in Coalville, I'm not sure what it sells (maybe it sells games consoles; maybe it's an amusement arcade; maybe both). In the window this weekend were two machines that caught my eye: an original Space Invaders machine from 1978, priced at 895 pounds; and a pinball machine from 1979 (branded "Gottlieb") for an almost-as-unreasonable 495 pounds. (I think at current exchange rates that's about $1300 and $700 US) As I was walking home, failing to hum the Space Invaders song, I wondered what sort of an active market is there for such machines? The prices looked high enough that they must be aiming at serious collectors, or possibly innkeepers who want to create a retro-seventies atmosphere. So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? Are my neighbours of a couple of blocks away being overoptimistic with their prices? Philip. PS What I remember from the period was the many, many attempts to write Invaders-style games in BASIC on the PET and other home computers. And my friend Matthew, after we'd borrowed a Sinclair ZX81 and experimented for a week or two, shutting himself away and writing a quite good one for that machine in machine code - I helped with the BASIC shell that built the initial screen display. And wiring a phone earpiece to the PET user port to hear the sound effects on the Commodore invaders program. And so on... PPS has anyone preserved the Space Invaders song? I sincerely hope not. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Nov 29 11:14:09 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 11:14:09 -0600 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> References: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <49317861.3050708@brutman.com> Philip Belben wrote: > Just curious... > > There's a shop in Coalville, I'm not sure what it sells (maybe it sells > games consoles; maybe it's an amusement arcade; maybe both). > > In the window this weekend were two machines that caught my eye: an > original Space Invaders machine from 1978, priced at 895 pounds; and a > pinball machine from 1979 (branded "Gottlieb") for an > almost-as-unreasonable 495 pounds. (I think at current exchange rates > that's about $1300 and $700 US) > ... Philip, I have four arcade games in the basement for many of the same reasons why I have vintage computers - Dropping a quarter into an original Atari Asteroids in the year 2008 is like stepping back close to 30 years in time. The technology is the same as on the vintage computers, and the schematics usually come with the games. These are computers - just with a slightly different purpose. They were also pretty well built given the sometimes hostile environments they lived in. Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 29 11:45:39 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:45:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: dec docs and gopher In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Nov 29, 8 10:27:25 am" Message-ID: <200811291745.mATHjddJ010704@floodgap.com> > > > gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds > > (gopher.floodgap.com) > So neat, I have to say! Do I sense a gopher revival in the > offing? What server software are you guys running? I don't know what Ivy is using, but I run my own homegrown software in Perl: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/buck -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 29 12:27:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:27:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <200811251523.KAA07125@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Nov 25, 8 10:20:36 am Message-ID: > Actually, I once saw screws which looked a bit like Robertson (the > square-socket kind) but with a triangular, not square, socket. I think > they were intended as a "security" screw head; I just took a spare Those turn up on cheap domestic appliances over here. The only possile reason for them is to make the device difficult to repair, something which, not suprisingly, I disapprove of. I've not managed to fidn a source of drivers or bits for these in the UK -- the 'security bit' sets don't contain them, and none of the tool shops I frequent keeps them. Does anyone know a source. So far I've had to make my own drivers from metal rod, fortunately the screws haven't been that tight. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Nov 29 15:32:06 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:32:06 -0200 Subject: Arcade games References: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <158d01c9526a$25a4fb30$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > As I was walking home, failing to hum the Space Invaders song, I > wondered what sort of an active market is there for such machines? The > prices looked high enough that they must be aiming at serious > collectors, or possibly innkeepers who want to create a retro-seventies > atmosphere. I'll resume it: They were cheap. I'd not sell a space invaders in pristine condiition for less than $2000 :o) > So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? Are my > neighbours of a couple of blocks away being overoptimistic with their > prices? take a look at ebay! :D From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 15:40:06 2008 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:40:06 +1300 Subject: dec docs and gopher In-Reply-To: <200811291745.mATHjddJ010704@floodgap.com> References: <200811291745.mATHjddJ010704@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds Very nice. I'm pleased to see that Firefox handles it fine (though GMail isn't smart enough to include the protocol in the link detector/highlighter). > I don't know what Ivy is using, but I run my own homegrown software in Perl: > > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/buck Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 29 16:59:14 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:59:14 -0800 Subject: Arcade games Message-ID: <4931C942.5080609@bitsavers.org> > So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? yes I was involved in arcade game collecting, for about ten years. rec.games.video.arcade.collecting on usenet has been active for a long time. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 29 17:28:41 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:28:41 -0500 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <4931C942.5080609@bitsavers.org> References: <4931C942.5080609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4931D029.7080603@atarimuseum.com> You can also try the forums at www.klov.com which is a great resource for information and connecting with other arcade collectors. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > > So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? > > yes > I was involved in arcade game collecting, for about ten years. > > rec.games.video.arcade.collecting on usenet has been active for a long > time. > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Nov 29 18:21:10 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 16:21:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: dec docs and gopher In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Nov 30, 8 10:40:06 am" Message-ID: <200811300021.mAU0LAaB012760@floodgap.com> > > > > > gopher://gopher.carnagevisors.net/1/dec94mds > > Very nice. I'm pleased to see that Firefox handles it fine (though > GMail isn't smart enough to include the protocol in the link > detector/highlighter). To make Firefox handle it better, see http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ or gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite/ There will be a new version to coincide with Firefox 3.1 with a few fixes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! -- Reb. Nachman ------------- From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 29 18:43:44 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:43:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <778197.42695.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I hope someone preserved the Space Invaders song, because I haven't heard it, and the awful "Only Amiga" song is preserved on YouTube :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 24/11/08, Philip Belben wrote: From: Philip Belben Subject: Arcade games To: cctech at classiccmp.org Date: Monday, 24 November, 2008, 9:00 PM *>> snip <<* PPS has anyone preserved the Space Invaders song? I sincerely hope not. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 29 19:30:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:30:38 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 on Eugene, OR CL Message-ID: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com> I don't know if this is a good price as I'm not interested in the things, but: http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/937642362.html Cheers, Chuck From martinm at allwest.net Sat Nov 29 19:40:43 2008 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:40:43 -0700 Subject: Free (or beer money) for Cost of Shipping Message-ID: <19BBBAB0BA53456992A843B8027CBBE8@p4266> I'm starting to clean out my "stuff". The below is free for shipping plus a couple of bucks for packing. If you want to add beer money, please feel free to do so. I'm in 82930 in USA. Email me off list to the name "martinm" at the domain "allwest.net". Otherwise, this hits the dumpster in a week or two. Thank you, Martin 2 = Compatible Systems MicroRouter 900i with manuals, software, etc. 1 = Asante 99-00278-01 BNC Hub/6 1 = Box of Sun Microphones & Audio Adapter Cables 7 = Sun 340-1414 Sun Microphone Kit (new in box) 1 = Sun 340-1414 Sun Microphone Kit (new, no box) 1 = Sun 530-1702 Audio Adapter Cable (used - SS2) 1 = Sun 530-1594 Adapter Cable (new - SS2) 1 = Sun 530-1702 Adapter Cable (new - SS2) 1 = Lantronix ETS-16UF Terminal Server with docs, cables, software 1 = Box of external modems: Modem Blaster 28.8 External Sportster 14.4 External Sportster SI 14.4 External 1 = Motorola CSU/DSU DDS/MR64 Assy No. 6456524700020 SN 4583243 1 = Box SCSI stuff: 1 = Iomega 8 bit SCSI card PC2B/50 00696601 FCC ID: DDX7EBPC2 2 = Seagate ST296N SCSI Drive 1 = Teac MT-2ST SCSI Cartridge Tape Drive with 8 bit interface card, cables & tapes 1 = Seagate ST 01/02 BIOS SCSI interface card 1 = Motorola UDS 96085 Multiplexer w/ 2 manuals Assy 62095079 SN 005947 Model 96085 LCD SA 1 = NEC Multimedia Gallery ( Sound Pro Audio Spectrum ) Multimedia kit - includes: 1 = NEC CD-ROM Reader Model CDR-74 1 = Special Cable - SCSI/joystick/midi/line-in 1 = MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum Sound/SCSI Card FCC ID: IXW-MVIPASM Manuals and downloaded software From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 29 19:46:54 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 17:46:54 -0800 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <778197.42695.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <778197.42695.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4931F08E.5020908@brouhaha.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > I hope someone preserved the Space Invaders song The one by Uncle Vic? It's not hard to find. "He's hooked, he's hooked, his brain is cooked!" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 29 20:00:05 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:00:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: <4931F08E.5020908@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <152128.93461.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I wouldn't know, having never heard it before. I didn't even know there was a Space Invaders song until today. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sun, 30/11/08, Eric Smith wrote: From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Arcade games To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, 30 November, 2008, 1:46 AM Andrew Burton wrote: >> I hope someone preserved the Space Invaders song > The one by Uncle Vic? It's not hard to find. > "He's hooked, he's hooked, his brain is cooked!" From martinm at allwest.net Sat Nov 29 20:08:15 2008 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:08:15 -0700 Subject: Free (or beer money) for Cost of Shipping In-Reply-To: <19BBBAB0BA53456992A843B8027CBBE8@p4266> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Marshall > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 6:41 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Free (or beer money) for Cost of Shipping > > > I'm starting to clean out my "stuff". The below is free for > shipping plus a couple of bucks for packing. If you want to > add beer money, please feel free to do so. I'm in 82930 in > USA. Email me off list to the name "martinm" at the domain > "allwest.net". Otherwise, this hits the dumpster in a week or two. > > Thank you, > Martin > Well, I fixed the format (I hope) 2 = Compatible Systems MicroRouter 900i with manuals, software, etc. 1 = Asante 99-00278-01 BNC Hub/6 1 = Box of Sun Microphones & Audio Adapter Cables 7 = Sun 340-1414 Sun Microphone Kit (new in box) 1 = Sun 340-1414 Sun Microphone Kit (new, no box) 1 = Sun 530-1702 Audio Adapter Cable (used - SS2) 1 = Sun 530-1594 Adapter Cable (new - SS2) 1 = Sun 530-1702 Adapter Cable (new - SS2) 1 = Lantronix ETS-16UF Terminal Server with docs, cables, software 1 = Box of external modems: Modem Blaster 28.8 External Sportster 14.4 External Sportster SI 14.4 External 1 = Motorola CSU/DSU DDS/MR64 Assy No. 6456524700020 SN 4583243 1 = Box SCSI stuff: 1 = Iomega 8 bit SCSI card PC2B/50 00696601 FCC ID: DDX7EBPC2 2 = Seagate ST296N SCSI Drive 1 = Teac MT-2ST SCSI Cartridge Tape Drive with 8 bit interface card, cables & tapes 1 = Seagate ST 01/02 BIOS SCSI interface card 1 = Motorola UDS 96085 Multiplexer w/ 2 manuals Assy 62095079 SN 005947 Model 96085 LCD SA 1 = NEC Multimedia Gallery ( Sound Pro Audio Spectrum ) Multimedia kit - includes: 1 = NEC CD-ROM Reader Model CDR-74 1 = Special Cable - SCSI/joystick/midi/line-in 1 = MediaVision Pro Audio Spectrum Sound/SCSI Card FCC ID: IXW-MVIPASM Manuals and downloaded software From robo58 at optonline.net Sat Nov 29 20:38:07 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:38:07 -0500 Subject: Help with Shugart SA801 8" floppy with 230v 50 cycle motor... In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: <005a01c95294$adc16560$09443020$@net> Hi Folks, Thanks for all the suggestions. They are wonderful. I am looking for either a replacement motor or a smaller pulley. Thanks for the www.smallparts.com suggestion, a new source for items (and the warning about checking stock). Happy Thanksgiving Robo From robo58 at optonline.net Sat Nov 29 20:39:25 2008 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:39:25 -0500 Subject: Ideas on how to archive my CP/M files currently on 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> References: <00ae01c94e49$070b4cd0$1521e670$@net> Message-ID: <005b01c95294$dc43fb50$94cbf1f0$@net> I recently pulled out all my old Z80 home-brew hardware and stash of 8" CP/M floppies. I was surprised to find that they still booted (with some errors) which got me thinking about how to archive them onto something with more longevity. I was considering adding an IDE interface but I'm not sure my existing media is reliable enough to go through software development without risking the loss of more floppies. I'm wondering how the CP/M users in this group have handled the issue. Thanks Robo From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 29 20:41:23 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:41:23 -0800 Subject: Arcade games Message-ID: <4931FD53.2060409@bitsavers.org> > I hope someone preserved the Space Invaders song "Space Invaders" by Uncle Vic? "he's hooked he's hooked his brain is cooked" It's on a Dr. Demento LP. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 29 23:42:53 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:42:53 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 on Eugene, OR CL In-Reply-To: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 5:30 PM -0800 11/29/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I don't know if this is a good price as I'm not interested in the >things, but: > >http://eugene.craigslist.org/sys/937642362.html How good the price is depends on factors that aren't mentioned, namely what the CPU is, how much RAM, and are there CD's for the software. If it includes OS CD's it is worth the price just for them. Of course I don't know that anyone on the list is down around Eugene. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 00:08:49 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:08:49 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 on Eugene, OR CL In-Reply-To: References: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4931BD71.2732.1FAA5D5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2008 at 21:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Of course I don't know that anyone on the list is down around Eugene. Except for me (I live there). But I don't know a thing about SGI hardware or its valuation. I can ask, if anyone's really serious. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 30 01:58:48 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun people and keyboards Message-ID: Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone who does? I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the idea of a Type 7 keyboard built like a Model M. I've already emailed clickykeyboards.com about it and they'll do the engineering and design work for about $27k. A Type 7 sells brand new for around $50. I'm sure people would be more than willing to pay twice as much for a "Type 7m". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Nov 30 08:48:29 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:48:29 -0500 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11420.1228056509@mini> David Griffith wrote: > >Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone who does? >I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the idea of a Type 7 >keyboard built like a Model M. I've already emailed clickykeyboards.com >about it and they'll do the engineering and design work for about $27k. A >Type 7 sells brand new for around $50. I'm sure people would be more than >willing to pay twice as much for a "Type 7m". Could you explain a little more? I got off the sun bus around type 4 keyboards. What's special about a model 7? and whats a "Model M"? Back in the day I loved my sun keyboard, but it looked like this: http://flickr.com/photos/joeclark/2193465934/ i.e. with the control key in the correct place :-) -brad From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Nov 30 09:32:39 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:32:39 -0500 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <11420.1228056509@mini> References: <11420.1228056509@mini> Message-ID: <4932B217.1010303@hawkmountain.net> Brad Parker wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >> Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone who does? >> I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the idea of a Type 7 >> keyboard built like a Model M. I've already emailed clickykeyboards.com >> about it and they'll do the engineering and design work for about $27k. A >> Type 7 sells brand new for around $50. I'm sure people would be more than >> willing to pay twice as much for a "Type 7m". >> > > Could you explain a little more? I got off the sun bus around type 4 > keyboards. > > What's special about a model 7? and whats a "Model M"? > > Back in the day I loved my sun keyboard, but it looked like this: > > http://flickr.com/photos/joeclark/2193465934/ > > i.e. with the control key in the correct place :-) > Type 5 (UNIX layout). Sometime around the 286 or so days I got used to the PC layout... While I probably could use either under UNIX, under DOS, the larger backslash key (and conveniently located) is a plus. I also like the larger backspace key of the PC layout. Guess it is just what you get used to. I should have some Type 5 UNIX layout keyboards around if anyone is looking any... make an offer... I won't be using them. -- Curt -- Curt > -brad > > From ray at arachelian.com Sun Nov 30 10:25:45 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:25:45 -0500 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone who does? > I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the idea of a Type 7 > keyboard built like a Model M. I've already emailed clickykeyboards.com > about it and they'll do the engineering and design work for about $27k. A > Type 7 sells brand new for around $50. I'm sure people would be more than > willing to pay twice as much for a "Type 7m". > > Note that there are conversion boxes that turn PS/2 keyboards + mice into Sun Desktop Bus devices. these used to go for roughly $100-$200. Might be easier to get a Model-M keyboard + your favorite mouse hooked up to one of these. Yes, there are issues with these such as the extra keys being missing, but these devices typically have alternate sequences for those - mine came with a reference card which I keep under the keyboard - this way Sun machines can easily hook up to cheap KVM's such as the Belkin 8 port I use. The only issue left is there's no way to power on the Sun box from the keyboard, going behind the machine to hit the power switch is needed. Otherwise, they work just fine, even the L1-A sequence. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 10:56:14 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:56:14 -0600 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> References: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730811300856n14ac5ec6mec1244dacca6433b@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Note that there are conversion boxes that turn PS/2 keyboards + mice > into Sun Desktop Bus devices. these used to go for roughly $100-$200. Here's the one I use, up now for $20 buy-it-now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190264289948 As Ray says, this box comes with a reference card showing how to emulate the various special Sun keystrokes, like Stop-A. Belkin has a similar box but I've had an easier time getting video to sync with the Raritan. Grab it before I decide I need an extra ;) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 30 12:19:31 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:19:31 +0100 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> References: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20081130191931.c8ceb45d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:25:45 -0500 Ray Arachelian wrote: > Note that there are conversion boxes that turn PS/2 keyboards + mice > into Sun Desktop Bus devices. http://www.kbdbabel.org/ I am using a PS/2 to Sun kbdbabel on my U60 for 1 1/2 year now. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 30 12:21:37 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:21:37 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 on Eugene, OR CL In-Reply-To: <4931BD71.2732.1FAA5D5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4931BD71.2732.1FAA5D5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:08 PM -0800 11/29/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 29 Nov 2008 at 21:42, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Of course I don't know that anyone on the list is down around Eugene. > >Except for me (I live there). But I don't know a thing about SGI >hardware or its valuation. > >I can ask, if anyone's really serious. I'm not interested as I have two O2's and OS CD's. The O2 is a nice small example of SGI hardware, it's no real power house, but I've been planning on turning one of mine into a MP3 Jukebox. Basically I'd like to try hooking one up to the home stereo, and put a web interface on it. Of course the downside to an O2, or several SGI machines for that matter, is that they don't stack well. I'm not sure what current values are, but since you're local and can bypass the shipping, the price would be worth it for you, but I don't know about anyone else, as shipping would tack on quite a bit. I paid $200 for a low end one nearly 6 years ago, and $250 for a high end one (it was miss-listed and should have sold for about $1k at that time). I just checked eBay and it looks like low-end ones are going for about $50, but you also need to tack on S&H which practically doubles the price. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Nov 30 14:36:24 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:36:24 -0500 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> References: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200811301536.24059.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 30 November 2008, Ray Arachelian wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone > > who does? I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the > > idea of a Type 7 keyboard built like a Model M. I've already > > emailed clickykeyboards.com about it and they'll do the engineering > > and design work for about $27k. A Type 7 sells brand new for > > around $50. I'm sure people would be more than willing to pay > > twice as much for a "Type 7m". > > Note that there are conversion boxes that turn PS/2 keyboards + mice > into Sun Desktop Bus devices. these used to go for roughly > $100-$200. Might be easier to get a Model-M keyboard + your favorite > mouse hooked up to one of these. I think that a type-7 keyboard is USB, so I don't think that will help all that much. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 15:37:32 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:37:32 -0600 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <51ea77730811300856n14ac5ec6mec1244dacca6433b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4932BE89.8000500@arachelian.com> <51ea77730811300856n14ac5ec6mec1244dacca6433b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730811301337r1924d08dtf0f0e6badec4d333@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Jason T wrote: > Here's the one I use, up now for $20 buy-it-now: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190264289948 One list reader has asked if I had the manual/cheatsheet for this box (the Raritan APSSUN II.) And lo, after some digging, I have found it. And here is a quick-and-dirty scan of said document, rendered with Acrobat 8 but hopefully readable to everyone: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/Raritan/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 30 16:08:27 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:08:27 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 on Eugene, OR CL In-Reply-To: References: <49317C3E.20396.1EAB92D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4931BD71.2732.1FAA5D5F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49329E5B.31962.2318D3C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2008 at 10:21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not sure what current values are, but since you're local and can > bypass the shipping, the price would be worth it for you, but I don't > know about anyone else, as shipping would tack on quite a bit. I > paid $200 for a low end one nearly 6 years ago, and $250 for a high > end one (it was miss-listed and should have sold for about $1k at > that time). I just checked eBay and it looks like low-end ones are > going for about $50, but you also need to tack on S&H which > practically doubles the price. I dropped the guy a note to see exactly what he has and will get back when he replies and if he has anything interesting to offer. He claims in the ad to have lots of software which might engender a little interest. Cheers, Chuck From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 16:36:03 2008 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:36:03 +0100 Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <11420.1228056509@mini> References: <11420.1228056509@mini> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 15:48, Brad Parker wrote: > ... > Back in the day I loved my sun keyboard, but it looked like this: > > http://flickr.com/photos/joeclark/2193465934/ > This layout is still available, my Type 6 works fine on my Dell PC.It's described there :http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/806-6642/6jfipqu5v?a=view (last one, labeled : U.S.A./UNIX Keyboard) -- Stephane Paris, France. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 30 16:40:07 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun people and keyboards In-Reply-To: <11420.1228056509@mini> References: <11420.1228056509@mini> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Brad Parker wrote: > > David Griffith wrote: > > > >Does anyone here have pull with Sun Microsystems or know someone who does? > >I'm trying to get the right person jazzed up about the idea of a Type 7 > >keyboard built like a Model M. I've already emailed clickykeyboards.com > >about it and they'll do the engineering and design work for about $27k. A > >Type 7 sells brand new for around $50. I'm sure people would be more than > >willing to pay twice as much for a "Type 7m". > > Could you explain a little more? I got off the sun bus around type 4 > keyboards. > > What's special about a model 7? and whats a "Model M"? > > Back in the day I loved my sun keyboard, but it looked like this: > > http://flickr.com/photos/joeclark/2193465934/ > > i.e. with the control key in the correct place :-) That's a Type 5. The Model M keyboard was created by IBM for the PS/2 line. See http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ for details. It's notable for being a very tough and comfortable keyboard. The Type 7 is Sun's latest keyboard. The layout is unchanged from the Type 5 and somewhat resembles it, but feels much cheaper and more fragile. The Type 7 is USB only. The Type 6 has the same layout, has irritating curves and a wrist rest and came in USB and Sun mini-din models. What I'm after is a keyboard built like the Model M, but with the layout of a Type [5|6|7]. I'm trying to justify this to Sun as being good for selling to customers who subject keyboards to heavy use. The standard Type 7 just doesn't feel up to the task. Oh, and it was Unicomp who said they can engineer such a keyboard, not clickykeyboards.com. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 30 18:29:18 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:29:18 -0600 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: References: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <49332FDE.5080904@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The two most common expensive machines I've seen are Ms PacMan > and Galaga. I routinely see them go for $600-$1000 US, auction after > auction. Hmm, I stumbled across an unplugged Ms PacMan cabinet the other day in a nearby hotel and had a half-thought to go and ask them if they actually wanted the thing any more (more for the chance to poke around the insides than actually play the thing). Maybe I will go back there... > Space Invaders is in the same league as those machines, but is not as common > anymore (if it ever was). Think I said it on here the other day (it was certainly to someone!) that I passed up a free cocktail cab space invaders many years ago - I think that's one of my biggest classic computing 'regrets' :-( cheers Jules From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Nov 30 18:59:42 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:59:42 -0800 Subject: Grid Compass 1109 Computer in Seattle WA area In-Reply-To: <200811301801.mAUI11Hm086562@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200811301801.mAUI11Hm086562@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <025e01c95350$18a47550$49ed5ff0$@net> Any interest in this? It's very old but outside of my normal collecting habits. The case is in good shape. It powers up but I get a boot error. The screen is also a bit fuzzy but I think just needs adjustment. If you're in the Puget Sound area (or don't mind paying for shipping). Going for the best offer of cash or trade. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 16:14:31 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:14:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <492A0F95.A09F5FB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <910803.53457.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> if this was the case, the surfaces just needed to be plated, you can produce a uniform thickness by polishing. Some sort of contraption (a lathe?) would be necessary, but it's not rocket science I don't think. I was between jobs a number of years ago and applied at this place in Long Island that makes some sort of microchips. The silicon wafers needed to be made *uniform*, and they used some sort of polishing operation. I asked what was the tolerance, and the guy said .0001". I figured to myself he probably didn't really know what he was talking about and the tolerance was much tighter. Cast iron surface plates can be made uniform to .000025" (that's right, 25 millionths of an inch), but that's an entirely different operation, and in fact is done - by hand - w/a glorified chisel. Carry on lads. I'm interested in learning more about this meself. --- On Sun, 11/23/08, Brent Hilpert wrote: > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Hard disk material > To: General at invalid.domain, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 9:21 PM > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > It looks like sometime in the future I may need > to rebuild a damaged > > > magnetic drum. It has some scratches that may be > too deep. As a > > > brainstorm, I am wondering about recoating the > surface. If I use > > > refined iron oxide, what would I use as a fixer > (glue)? What was > > > typically used on early hard disk platters and > drums? > > > > Seriously? Do keep us posted... far as I know, > it's not something that > > anyone's ever tried before - it'd be > interesting to know how you get on. I'm > > not even sure how you could coat a drum in glue / > oxide and get it of uniform > > thickness without specialist tooling. > > > > I've heard of low-speed, low-capacity homebrew > drums before, but it sounds > > like you're hoping to rebuild a commercial one... > > Weren't drums and early disks done with nickel or > some-such plating, rather > than binder & oxide? > > Of course, getting a uniform thickness of plating requires > careful attention as > well (spoken having had bitter experience with such). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 16:15:35 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <492A243D.2050403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <78924.16657.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> anyway you look at it, the material has to be deposited onto a flat surface, no? --- On Sun, 11/23/08, Eric Smith wrote: > From: Eric Smith > Subject: Re: Hard disk material > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 10:49 PM > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Weren't drums and early disks done with nickel or > some-such plating, rather > > than binder & oxide? > > > Nickel plating would definitely not work. Some of the > earliest drums used cunife (copper/nickel/iron alloy) wire > tightly wound around an aluminum cylinder, then turned on a > lathe to get a flat surface. Some drums included magnesium, > cobalt, or other metals in the alloy. Later drums used > various coating methods rather than wire. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 17:46:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:46:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <290427.94082.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Hard disk material > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 5:23 PM > > wild guess - the binder is some sort of expensive epoxy > material. > > Perhaps. Some sort binder as found in enamel paints might > work as well. Even house paints used to use linseed oil for binder. My mother (from Croatia) claims paint used to be made by burning rocks. Whatever...there are very expensive epoxies out there, and much more durable. Ask machine rebuilders (on the net). There's a type of epoxy that's used to bind strips to lathe ways, and is very expensive. Not that that's definitely what you need, but I wouldn't count on using anything out of a paint can. > > How are you going to apply the rust? With a airbrush? > You'll need some sort of mechanism to insure it gets > applied evenly (i.e uniform thickness), no? You'll also > need something similar to apply the *epoxy* - that would > have to go on uniformly also. The distance between the read > head and the platter is measured in microns, no? > > The drum is quite low density, and does not have air > bearing heads. > The head heights are actually adjustable with a bunch of > set screws. > The heads themselves are also pretty big. This is a late > 1950s drum, > not a 1970s era hard disk - there is a world of difference. > I would > bet the heads ride a few thousands above the surface. > > The whole assembly is in a very rigid cast chassis, driven > by a > relatively low-frills AC motor, apparently. > > My thinking is that the drum could be recoated (this is > assuming it is > indeed shot), and using the rigid cast chassis, ground down > to a > smooth surface with a custom made tool. I'm not that familiar w/stuff that old. When you say drum I'm thinking a cylinder. No reason that can't be ground on a centerless grinding machine, but that won't be cheap. Forget about anything homemade for grinding (unless you have a year to build that *something*). This is much like a > "poor mans > wheel lathe" used on railroad wheels. As long as the > bearings are > still pretty tight, there should be very little wobble > between the > drum and chassis. Bearings can be replaced. That's the least of your problems I would think. With each head being adjustable for > height, much > inaccuracy across the drum becomes fairly unimportant. > Inaccuracy > around the drum is more of an issue, but I suspect it will > not be too > bad if the correct tool material and magnetic coating is > used, and the > drum ground down gently. I will ask my real machinist > friends about > the tooling, as I doubt I (or any of us) could make it. Talk to the machinist. But talk to people who manufacture drives most of all. I'm surprised someone hasn't already arisen out of the board's woodwork... > Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 17:49:24 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <492AC836.6374.47C6D50@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <597517.27154.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if the coating could be made from a slow-ish > drying binder, > such as polyurethane resin, mixed with the oxide, the drum > liberally > coated with the glop and then spun at low speed > (horizontally) while > drying to keep the coating a more-or-less uniform > thickness. Interesting. He might have to experiment w/speeds so that all the material isn't pulled to the outer edge. But regardless even if you determined the right speed, you might have a globule of the crap LOL accumulating near the perimeter. > I don't know if it would work, but it might be worth > looking into. > > Cheers, > Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 14:17:24 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:17:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard disk material In-Reply-To: <2170B7F2-ED0C-4436-8C79-02F83BD28C95@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <846700.90026.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Robert Nansel wrote: > From: Robert Nansel > Subject: Re: Hard disk material > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 7:58 PM > Sun Nov 23 Eric Smith wrote: > > > Nickel plating would definitely not work. Some of the > earliest drums > > used cunife (copper/nickel/iron alloy) wire tightly > wound around an > > aluminum cylinder, then turned on a lathe to get a > flat surface. ... please entertain the village idiot - what's the difference between turning down wire wrapped around a cylinder and laminating? a sheet of the same material around the surface of the cylinder? > It also occurs to me that the machining could be done with > the drive mechanics, provided it's rigid enough and you > take very light cuts. You would fabricate a cutter head > that bolts in the same way as a R/W head. To take a cut, > you just tweak the adjustment screw(s) and turn an > additional "feed" screw to cut the track the right > width. I'm guessing the bearings would be pretty light-duty. You'll never get smoothness with a cutter. You'll need to either follow up w/grinding or lapping (or polishing?). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 14:28:54 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: <492C4A0B.1050609@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <60758.24593.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> a machinist dude told me the cellophane used to encapsulate ciggies is .001" thick. I don't smoke anymore, can't determine how close that is to the truth. The paper is bound to be at least .0005" larger - somewhere between .0015" and .0002". I'm just guessing though. --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > Subject: Re: magnetic drums > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 1:55 PM > I distinctly remember an article in the german CT magazine, > a couple of years ago. > It described the development of the G1, G2 and G3 computers > of the Gottingen university at the end of the 50 and > throughout the sixties. > > They also used a drum, and the article described how they > coated the drum with the mixture of oxide and -something- > with a normal painter brush, by hand... > That -something- is mentioned in the article, I forgot what > it was. > > Several attempts were required to get the correct > thickness. > > Distance between heads and drum was measured using > cigarette paper as a shim.... > > Jos From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 14:32:03 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:32:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: magnetic drums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <30499.39315.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 11/25/08, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, that -something-. That is what is the mystery. > > The binder for a marine grade paint would probably work > fine. There are any number of substances then if you're going to go that low tech. What about varnish or polyurethane then? > > Distance between heads and drum was measured using > cigarette paper as a > > shim.... > > Or those squishy plastic thread gauges that machinists and > engine > rebuilders use. FWIW, most hobby shops (if there are any left) and some good hardware stores sell K & S brass (and sometimes aluminum) shapes/metal stock. You can buy a pack of shim stock for about 4$. Contains either multiples of .001" thick sheets or varying thicknesses from .001" to .005". Can't remember exactly. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 19:13:50 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <470065.78083.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'm not familiar w/them. Want it though. And now! I can't even locate a Tandy 6000. What's up with that!!! --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Mike Loewen wrote: > From: Mike Loewen > Subject: HP3000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 8:01 PM > Where have all the HP3000 systems gone? > > Between 1986 and 1988, I worked on a whole slew of > HP3000s, from the Series III to the Series 70. They were > popular in the business environment, especially in COBOL > shops. Where did they end up? You can find loads of DEC > equipment on Ebay, even IBM System 34, 36 and AS/400s, the > occasional HP1000, but the only HP3000 I recall seeing in > recent years was a single Model 37. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old > Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 28 13:35:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage-Computer Marketplace (Was Re: semi-monthly ebay grumble In-Reply-To: <492ED53F.7000108@brutman.com> Message-ID: <734234.25717.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> this is a very good idea. But keep in mind you most definitely will not draw the attention of the bids that you will on eBay (I hate to admit it, but it's true). Even Erik is bound to put his treasures there, given he wants to get the best price. If you're strapped for cash it makes the most sense to list something where you'll get the most rubels. But this is a great idea I still maintain. --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > From: Michael B. Brutman > Subject: Vintage-Computer Marketplace (Was Re: semi-monthly ebay grumble > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 12:13 PM > David Griffith wrote: > > One again, I'm getting the grumbles over > Ebay's policies: its impenetrable > > policies on how much much I pay for what, lack of > protection against > > insane buyers, a constantly changing look and feel, > and so on. I tried > > out chasethechuckwagon.com for selling a couple video > game carts and I > > like it. Their whole fee structure is generous and > easily explained in > > one paragraph. The only problem is that I don't > sell that much in the way > > of video games. I don't know what a good > alternative for classic computer > > stuff would be. Right now I'm looking closely at > ebid. I think this week > > I'll run a few things there and see what happens. > > > > Have you tried Erik Klein's site? > > Besides having a fairly active web forum he has put up an > auction site. With no fees ... > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ > > > It is a little thin at the moment but we are hoping it will > become the preferred place for our hobby. > > > Mike From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 28 13:37:17 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:37:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: IDE <-> MFM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17839.96258.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> what I had been thinking was shouldn't it be somewhat *easy* to make an IDE drive into an MFM. Just strip off what you don't need! How do you make an elephant...take a piece of stone and remove everything that don't look like an elephant! And it's done! --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Tony Duell wrote: > From: Tony Duell > Subject: Re: IDE <-> MFM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:35 PM > > > > On Wed, 26 Nov 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> IIRC, my Compaq "Portable 286" (NOT > the "Portable 2") > > >> had a pre-standardization ISA IDE > "controller" that cabled to a bridge > > >> board on an MFM drive > > > > > > Isn't that the other way around, though: IDE > controller -> bridge -> MFM > > > drive? The previous poster's saying* > they're doing this the other way > > > > That doesn't make sense. IDE stands for Integrated > Drive Electronics, > > which means that the controller is located on the > drive. Therefore IDE > > controller cards don't exist, and you can't > bride IDE to an ST-412 > > OK, but IDE bus interface cards do exist. Meaning cards > that link ISA > (or whatever) bus to an IDE drive. For ISA, it's little > more than an > address decoder and buffers (I happen to be using one in > this PC). > > > interface type drive. > > Sure you can. Make a PCB containing a WD1003-like disk > controller. On one > side, have ST412 connectors to conencto to that sort of > drive. On the > other, have an IDE interface -- data lines, 3 address > lines, etc. In > other words the original PC/AT disk controller board minus > the floppy > controller and minus most of the address decoder. Linked to > the IDE bus > interface I mentioned just now, you have a complete ST412 > hard disk > controller system. And the seond part of it could > reasonably be called an > IDE (host interface) to ST412 (drive interface) bridge > board. > > -tony From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sat Nov 29 17:07:15 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:07:15 +0100 Subject: Australian ex-DEC Director has large museum in his home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4931CB23.8010203@acc.umu.se> Richard wrote: > Slideshow: > > What a collection... Halfway through the pictures I saw something I recognised, a plate with a spiral wound thick single metal wire. I found one of those 20 years ago in a calculator made by Olivetti. It is standing to the far left in picture 27 among other types of silicon and core memory. Is it a memory? What type? ... never mind. Picture 41 shows a similar device. It was an ultrasonic delay line. How much could be stored in such a memory? /G?ran From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 29 21:47:36 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:47:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Triangle pseudo-Robertson screws [was Re: 5" floppy?.] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200811300354.WAA22676@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Actually, I once saw screws which looked a bit like Robertson (the >> square-socket kind) but with a triangular, not square, socket. > Those turn up on cheap domestic appliances over here. The only > possile reason for them is to make the device difficult to repair, I disagree. There is also an argument for them in the form of protecting consumers from the dangerous interiors of appliances. Of course, depending on the appliance, this may not actually be a valid argument. But if there's mains voltage present, it's an argument with some force to it. (While you and I may be competent to fix things, and competent to avoid hurting ourselves even in cases where we aren't able to fix, most small-appliance consumers are neither. Worse, many of them incorrectly think they are.) Not that I think such screws are a good idea; like you, I come down opposing them. Just pointing out that your "only possi[b]le reason" actually isn't. An Allen wrench of the right size should work. The one device I ran into that used them used sufficiently small screws that I didn't have an Allen wrench of the right size; my selection of them is poor, and it needs to be fairly precisely the right size for this.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Nov 30 03:13:50 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:13:50 +0000 Subject: 5" floppy?. In-Reply-To: <492ADDD9.20909.4D104F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <550847.65805.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <492B3F1C.1060309@gmail.com>, <20081125002945.GB16104@thangorodrim.de> <492ADDD9.20909.4D104F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4932594E.4090509@axeside.co.uk> > The Zenith Minisport used 2" floppies (the same media used on the > Canon Xapshot camera (and some others). > > As has been mentioned, there are also 2.8" and 3.25" inch floppies. > > There's also a 12" floppy, but it doesn't hold much: :-p The largest floppy (flexible magnetic disk) I ever saw was at least 14 inch. This was at IBM in 1985 or '86, although I'm pretty certain it wasn't an IBM product. We used it for some sort of audio or speech synthesis system. The drive was a separate box about the size of a PC system unit, and the disk occupied almost the entire footprint. Notable features were the envelope - thin white card - and the window therein for the head, which ran from near the centre to near a corner of the envelope. (I only ever saw the one disk.) Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Nov 30 03:35:01 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:35:01 +0000 Subject: Arcade games In-Reply-To: References: <492B15E9.6010501@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <49325E45.1050409@axeside.co.uk> Ethan provided a long, informative reply to my post: >> There's a shop in Coalville... >> In the window this weekend were two machines that caught my eye: an original >> Space Invaders machine from 1978, priced at 895 pounds; and a pinball >> machine from 1979 (branded "Gottlieb") for an almost-as-unreasonable 495 >> pounds. (I think at current exchange rates that's about $1300 and $700 US) > > OK. > >> ... what sort of an active market is there for such machines? The prices looked >> high enough that they must be aiming at serious collectors, or possibly >> innkeepers who want to create a retro-seventies atmosphere. >> >> So do people here know about the classic arcade game market? Are my >> neighbours of a couple of blocks away being overoptimistic with their >> prices? > > I would personally not pay $1300 US for a real Space Invaders, but > consider how many paid games that turns into - in the US, it would > be $0.25/game (don't know about the UK.), so that's 5200 games. Ah. Yes. In the US, prices may well be depressed by there being no coins in common circulation above a quarter dollar. The slots on the front of the Space Invaders machine said "50p" on them - that seems to be about 70 or 80 US cents at the moment. At your calculation, 895 pounds would only take 1790 games to pay off the debt - five games a day for a year - which is a much more attractive figure. Many arcade games here now accept one pound coins, so if the owner did that conversion, the game could pay for itself quicker still. (FWIW our 50p coins got smaller in 1997, so there's a chance the coin mechanism would need converting anyway.) > I have a few games on my list I'd like to get. Space and opportunity > have limited me to just a couple. Unfortunately, some of the games > from my childhood are pre-microprocessor, so it's not even possible > to play them on MAME. I need the real thing or to build/program my > own replica. The time has somewhat passed to see games from the > B&W 8080 and earlier era at auction on a regular basis, and when > you do see them, they are not always in the best of shape, and if they > are, they don't often go cheap. These are all older than Space > Invaders. Interesting. IIRC Space Invaders spanned the BW/colour divide. Later games had colour displays, but earlier ones had monochrome displays with strips of colour filter over the screen. I don't know when the change came, or which version this one is. Thanks, Ethan, for an interesting window onto a world I hardly know at all. Philip. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Nov 30 06:58:01 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 06:58:01 -0600 Subject: problem with listserv? Message-ID: <20081130125801.GA5784@n0jcf.net> Hmm... I've sent a number of things to this list which have not ever shown up here. Curious if I can actually really post to the list...?? I also see that postings from others show up about 5 to 6 days after they post them. For example, yesterday 11/29, I received gobs of postings dated 11/24. There will be many days of silence and then all of a sudden I'll get a bunch of them all at once, that many days behind. cje -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com