From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 00:23:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2010 at 19:23, William Donzelli wrote: > And the last place *anyone* wants to go is liquid cooling. Too bad no one ever told Seymour Cray that... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 00:37:59 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:37:59 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:44 PM -0700 9/30/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! I don't blame you, I'm not into HP systems, but that's a seriously cool sounding system. I'd love to try MPE. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 00:40:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 01:40:09 -0400 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> And the last place *anyone* wants to go is liquid cooling. > > Too bad no one ever told Seymour Cray that... And he would not have listened anyway. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 1 01:25:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:25:44 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> On 10/1/10 12:44 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > Mark > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 Excellent score! And I see the kitty approves as well! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 06:40:33 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:40:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? In-Reply-To: <4CA5587A.2020008@snarc.net> References: <4C4CF83B.1050302@snarc.net> <4CA5587A.2020008@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Hi all -- >> >> My club (MARCH) is scheduled to exhibit at the inaugural Maker Faire NYC. >> I'm starting to have second thoughts because we don't "make" anything, we >> just make old things work again. Who here has been to a Maker Faire event, >> and if so, would a vintage computers exhibit be well received by the >> audience? >> > > Update .... the event was GREAT and unlike anything I've been to ..... very > glad that we went. Our booth was very well received. We showed a Pong > machine, Altair, C-64 with Shredz64 (Guitar Hero), and networked C-64 gaming > (Artillery Duel.) > Pics 'n Video Here's some pics 'n video that some websites have online already. It's not even half the stuff that was there. http://makerfaire.com/newyork/2010/media/pics.csp http://makerfaire.com/newyork/2010/media/video.csp Ep. 98: NYC Maker Faire highlights, Maker Faire 2010 in New York City - Metropolis - WSJ Photos & Video: World Maker Faire New York 2010 Make: Online : Tim O'Reilly rides the Jet Ponies Here's some pics I took http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/sets/72157624947318751/ btw, this was the their show schedule Maker Faire NYC Schedule/ =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 07:56:23 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 13:56:23 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 02:49, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being >> multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear >> altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good >> enough. > > I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than they can talk. Most people can't type at all. > And then > there's programming. *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 08:20:05 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:20:05 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > > Agreed. I've managed to find lots of bargains without sniping... > especially in books. I've found a bunch of great, usually expensive > books on compilers and AI for very little money. > > I've found plenty of [used] books online very inexpensively *without* without resorting to eBay. Manuals are another issue though. Not everything is canned yet :) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 08:50:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:50:37 -0400 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: Wow. That's loaded. I have a SYM-1 but I've never seen the KTM2 keyboard before. -ethan On 10/1/10, Alexis wrote: > On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 22:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: >> :-) >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 >> > > Oh man, I'm turning green with envy already for whoever may get that... > I've got a SYM-1, I rescued it from the soldering practice pile at TAFE. > A KTM-2 would be really nice to go with it. :) > > Alexis > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 1 10:10:58 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:10:58 -0400 Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... Message-ID: In case anyone on the list won this ebay auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360303684042&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT and doesn't know what that little thin rectangular board with the caps, resistors and coax on it is, it is an original Software Tech Music System board. The docs and software for it are on Jim Battle's Sol website. Not much to it electronically, but I really wanted an original. Rats! From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 1 11:24:50 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:24:50 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price than the BIN or starting offer. steve On 10/1/2010 6:20 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Mark Davidsonwrote > >> >> Agreed. I've managed to find lots of bargains without sniping... >> especially in books. I've found a bunch of great, usually expensive >> books on compilers and AI for very little money. >> >> >> > I've found plenty of [used] books online very inexpensively *without* > without resorting to eBay. Manuals are another issue though. Not everything > is canned yet :) > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 11:44:28 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:44:28 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> , Message-ID: You're mixing two different arguments, but there is merit to both. Once upon a time, I worked on speech recognition and synthesis at Microsoft - we shipped the first Speech API that wasn't produced by Microsoft Research. (Instead of 137 interfaces, there were five.) It was a good product, offering quite accurate speaker-independent recognition, but it wasn't going to replace keyboards. For one thing: it's bad enough when you have a roomfull of people talking on telephones. Imagine if they were also talking to their computers! One of the problems speech recognition has yet to solve is the so-called 'cocktail party' scenario: a computer cannot pick out and focus on one voice among many. So if the woman in the next cubicle has a particularly loud, penetrating voice (not that that's ever happened to me), your results may vary.... I've also noticed that people who are talking to devices don't modulate their voices the same way people do when talking to other people. There's no sense of feedback, and volume rises. (It's interesting that the only place voice systems have really become successful is - on the phone!) Further, since the device isn't perfect but again provides no mitigating feedback upon error, people rapidly become frustrated with voice systems, once again leading to raised voices. IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Spoken interaction is dramatically different from either command-line interaction or its translation to the GUI. This goes beyond UI, and requires a very different model of communication with our digital companions. Given the above objection, no one has put much time or money into tackling the problem. Speech recognition will not catch on either among vendors or customers if it's simply a replacement for the keyboard and the model of interaction it engenders. Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Remember the cute little pop-out mouse on the HP Omnibook? As we move more to mobile devices (a category in which the iPad barely 'fits'!), physical pointing devices are awkward (including a stylus, which is easily lost). But once again we will need to make changes to our user interfaces: isn't it fun trying to select one line from a single-spaced list on a Web page? (I have an Android-based 7" tablet, which I'm coming to dearly love.) Also, there is a very significant difference between the mouse and the touchscreen: the former has a persistent cursor. The touchscreen has no 'default' for 'clicking' but instead enables all visible icons as potential action objects. This is more akin to the light-pen/gun devices that predate the mouse (the mouse was not the original pointing device). This subtle difference can make it challenging to port a mouse-based application to a touchscreen. While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means of communication. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code with >50% punctuation... When I see photos of the 'keyboardless' ipad, more often than not there's a virtual keyboard taking up half of that very expensive screen... I giggle and keep on typing :-) Alexey From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 1 11:47:51 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 16:47:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. > > Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than > they can talk. Most people can't type at all. What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) >> And then >> there's programming. > > *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what > do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. All the important ones are :-) Alexey From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:07:45 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:07:45 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:24 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring > books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. > ?They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. > Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price > than the BIN or starting offer. Oh, no doubt... I usually check both to see who has the better price. :) Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 12:24:37 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:24 AM, steve shumaker wrote: >> actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring >> books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. >> ?They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. >> Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price >> than the BIN or starting offer. > > Oh, no doubt... I usually check both to see who has the better price. :) Also http://www.abebooks.com Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 12:26:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:26:47 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 9:44, Ian King wrote: > While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the > mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of > information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to > replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means > of communication. ...which is why there are chalkboards, overhead projectors, etc. in every classroom. Ian, were you involved at all with the L&H stuff? It was actually pretty decent for the time. Too bad it turned into a "pump and dump" scheme by a couple of shysters. --Chuck (who made some money from an investment in L&H before it imploded) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:32:11 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:32:11 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 17:47, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. >> >> Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than >> they can talk. Most people can't type at all. > > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) My company makes and sells computers for retirement-age people who have never used one before. You'd be surprised. The vast majority of the human race still has no idea how to type and slowly and painfully taps out stuff slowly with one finger. Two if they are skilled. >>> ?And then >>> there's programming. >> >> *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what >> do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. > > All the important ones are :-) The point is, if a handful (relatively speaking) of programmers want keyboards, they can have them. Like floppy disks or serial ports, they may well prove to me minority devices that will disappear from the mass market completely. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:39:40 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:39:40 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > On 1 Oct 2010 at 9:44, Ian King wrote: > > > While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the > > mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of > > information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to > > replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different > means > > of communication. > > ...which is why there are chalkboards, overhead projectors, etc. in > every classroom. > > Ian, were you involved at all with the L&H stuff? It was actually > pretty decent for the time. Too bad it turned into a "pump and dump" > scheme by a couple of shysters. > > --Chuck > (who made some money from an investment in L&H before it imploded) Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... Our recognition stuff was all in-house, though. -- Ian From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Oct 1 12:43:33 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 13:43:33 -0400 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <6514D698-65B1-4B7F-9E95-DB23AF09EC45@xlisper.com> On Sep 20, 2010, at 10:18 PM, David Betz wrote: >> I've received two "yes" responses, so please consider it claimed. > > Well, I have the consolation prize I guess. I've been meaning to get rid of a Toshiba Libretto 70CT with external floppy drive, CD ROM drive and docking station. I also have a carrying case for it. It worked the last time I tried it but I'm not sure how good the battery is. Anyone interested? You pay the shipping unless you have something interesting to trade. Ever since reading the book "Racing the Beam" by Nick Montfort and Ian Bogost I've been interested in getting an Atari 2600... Thanks to all who showed an interest in my Libretto 70CT. I've found a new home for it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 12:45:25 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) I know IT professionals that don't know how to type. I don't know about now, but when I went to school, it was an optional class. Thankfully I took it, but it wasn't until I was spending a lot of time doing word processing on a Minicomputer, that I really learned to type. Zane From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:49:28 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:49:28 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [snip] > > The point is, if a handful (relatively speaking) of programmers want > keyboards, they can have them. Like floppy disks or serial ports, they > may well prove to me minority devices that will disappear from the > mass market completely. > > I do have a fold-up USB keyboard for use with my Android tablet - but I don't recall the last time I used it. Of course, for long emails, I fire up the PowerBook. :-) My point being: I agree that programmers are a minority among consumers of information technology, as are "knowledge workers" and most other categories, compared to consumers who surf the web, play YouTube videos and natter on FaceBook. So the tools they need may well be specialized, and that may be the category into which the physical keyboard will soon find itself -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:51:43 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:51:43 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:45 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? > If > > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. > Most of > > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They > have > > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) > > I know IT professionals that don't know how to type. I don't know > about > now, but when I went to school, it was an optional class. Thankfully I > took > it, but it wasn't until I was spending a lot of time doing word > processing > on a Minicomputer, that I really learned to type. > > Zane > When I first started writing code for a living (6800 assembly language), I was the only programmer on the team who *could* touch-type. Everyone else was hunt-and-peck. -- Ian From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:54:35 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:54:35 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> References: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/1/10 12:44 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > ?Excellent score! ?And I see the kitty approves as well! That's Theo, one of my 3 cats. He is always the first to check out new machines brought into the house. Of course, that's usually because there's a box associated with new machine and Theo LOVES boxes. :) Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:56:10 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:56:10 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:44 PM -0700 9/30/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > I don't blame you, I'm not into HP systems, but that's a seriously cool > sounding system. ?I'd love to try MPE. I have a special spot in my heart for HP3000 systems. MPE is a seriously cool OS, and I attended UTC, home of the HP3000 mailing list. My mother also worked at the university for 20+ years. I grew up spending summers on the campus, in the library and in their computer center, using their 3000 (and their 1000). Mark From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 13:10:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:10:17 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 10:39, Ian King wrote: > Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... It's amazing how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. This, from Wikipedia: "On 20 September 2010, co-founders Jo Lernout and Pol Hauspie, as well as Nico Willaert, former vice chairman, and Gaston Bastiaens, former chief executive officer, were each sentenced to 5 years prison (of which 3 years effective and 2 years probationary) for fraud by the Ghent Court of Appeals. However, due to the endemnic problem of overcrowding in Belgian prisons and the policy of not executing sentences of 3 years or less, it is quite unlikely any of them will actually serve any time." --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 13:15:58 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:15:58 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:10 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > On 1 Oct 2010 at 10:39, Ian King wrote: > > > Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... > > It's amazing how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. This, from > Wikipedia: > > "On 20 September 2010, co-founders Jo Lernout and Pol Hauspie, as > well as Nico Willaert, former vice chairman, and Gaston Bastiaens, > former chief executive officer, were each sentenced to 5 years prison > (of which 3 years effective and 2 years probationary) for fraud by > the Ghent Court of Appeals. However, due to the endemnic problem of > overcrowding in Belgian prisons and the policy of not executing > sentences of 3 years or less, it is quite unlikely any of them will > actually serve any time." > > --Chuck > Thanks for the pointer. Wow, that's ancient history - I worked on speech around the time my daughter was born, and she's in middle school. :-) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 1 13:35:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:35:49 +0100 Subject: Adaptec AIC-010 / AIC-100 ECC scheme Message-ID: <4CA62A05.4060108@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've managed to get my grubby paws on a Seagate ST22R RLL controller, and a matching ST-277R-1 hard drive (half-height 5.25in, 60MB ish). As part of my "pre-installation research", I Googled the part number of the one apparently-non-Seagate-custom part on the ST22R -- an Adaptec AIC-010 RLL controller. Turns out the datasheet for this part is on Bitsavers too. The datasheet provides a decent overview of the on-disc format (specifically: it's a tweaked variant of the IBM floppy disc low-level format, sitting on top of (2,7)RLL). What it doesn't really cover is the 32-bit error-correction code and its polynomial. There is a slightly oblique reference to Fire codes, there are two polynomials (forward and reverse), and data is loaded in shift-register style. Does anyone know what sort of error-correction codes were used on the AIC-010 and AIC-100 controller chips, or the polynomials used? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:58:57 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:58:57 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button to >> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right button >> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, rather >> than smaller increments) > > Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern > window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not > registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the > core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing > to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - > but I might have missed it. I don't think it was quite as smooth as Acorn's implementation. I think there was also functionality in some setups where the amount that the window scrolled by on a left or right click was dependent on how close to the top or bottom (or left/right) the mouse pointer was on the window's scrollbars - but that was a pretty awful feature (because it was hard to judge exactly how much the window would scroll by for a particular mouse position) >> I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI design >> - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting reading, >> seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and their >> analysis of what the competition was up to. > > Oh, that would be cool! Yeah, aside from the copyright issue, it's finding the time to sift through everything and make sure there's nothing *really* sensitive there - e.g. some of the data came from employee desktop machines, which means that there's personal data on there as well as corporate stuff. >> Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology works, >> or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). > > They cheat. It does have conventional fans, with blades, they're just > concealed within the base. No whizzy electrostatic impellers or > anything here. Nothing to see, move along. :?) Urgh :-( I did wonder, but the ads and corporate blurb all go one about them being bladeless when what they really mean is 'no visible blades' > But like it or not, the PC is moving toward being a consumer > appliance, like TVs or phones. There are no commercial TV or phone > repairmen around any more; the PC will go the same way. > > The question is, will they do it well or not? I'd put my money on not. Nobody gives a crap about quality any more :-( > And if the big players don't, is there room for a small company to > make money doing it right? Maybe, but it's difficult. A small company won't have the marketing budget, which means they have to rely far more on word of mouth - and it's difficult these days to survive long enough to establish a reputation. Once you're there, not so bad, but getting to that point is the problem. >> What I >> really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an >> average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which have >> too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) > > Entirely agree. But no buttons is also an infinite number of buttons, > in a way. Yes, but an infinite number of buttons with poor feedback :-) Humans like audible and tactile responses, just as they like visual ones. > Apple /were/ right, like it or not - there are abundant > figures to prove it. 1 button *is* the easiest for novices. I agree - but I think it's also a hindrance for more experienced users. Maybe we need 3-button mice, but an OS that can run in 'single button mode' for novices, where they don't have to worry about which mouse button they have to press :-) > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I think a lot of the reason that the entire world isn't using Model M's is the noise factor, though - I'm not sure I could handle an office full of people babbling away at their computers :-) Maybe 50 years from now we'll be able to control computers via thought - that would get rid of a lot of the bottlenecks (I can think far faster than I can type or speak) and would be silent... >>> I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless >>> transciever and batteries. >> Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of hoo-hah >> about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have gone >> quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) > > Oh, it's coming. Much argument over techniques and standards. They'll > squabble for a while then make it work. I seem to recall ads for some wireless phone charger here in the US a year or two ago, but then it all went quiet. Not sure why - maybe their tech just didn't work, or maybe people just didn't believe that it was real. It doesn't seem unreasonable to have a mouse mat that doubles as a charging pad, though. >>> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >>> am not worried about their longevity. :?) >> Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) > > Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. Mine's so ancient that it doesn't even have the status LEDs on it. I do kind-of miss a caps-lock LED - one of my tests for an apparently-hung system was always to hit the caps-lock and see if the LED lit; invariably it wouldn't if the machine had gone completely loopy. cheers Jules From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 14:04:24 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $6000 for an Altair 8800b with drives, terminals and DEC printer Message-ID: <417529.20872.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I just posted a link about this to my blog. http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=378 The direct sale is here http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTAIR-8800B-MITS-COMPUTER-W-DISK-DRIVE-COMPLETE-8800-/260669930382 I guess if I could burn $6000.00 I would get it. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 14:11:34 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 14:11:34 -0500 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I just sold 30# of aluminum heatsink approx 8" wide x 4" high x 5' long for >> $40.00. 9 other identical pieces were scrapped out for about $15.00 each. My >> understanding is that they were in the $100.00 + catagory when new. > > And that sounds like it was for stock extrusions. If you add all sorts > of machining so the heatsink actually touches the processor, you can > add a bunch more on to the price. > > Fans are cheap and effective. I was just thinking how many other sources of noise I have in my home - microwave, washing machine, dishwasher, clothes drier, fridge etc. and how people don't typically complain about the noise that they make. That's because we don't generally sit right next to them, so maybe that's the issue with current computers - not the noise they make, but the fact that it's intrusive because it's right next to us for extended periods. Maybe the solution isn't to make PCs quiet, but simply to get them out of the darn way :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 15:08:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:08:25 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> I've seen a little discussion of ones'complement (or "compliment if you're a recent graduate of the US university system) on the EDA fora, with no satisfactory resolution of the end-around carry stability issue. Given that almost every CPU that I've seen since 1980 has operated in two's complement, I submit that this qualifies as a "classic" discussion. I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge waste of logic. Has anyone in their FPGA simulations ever run into this one and come up with a clever solution? Just curious, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 16:15:53 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 14:15:53 -0700 Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill Send a message to the seller. It is possible that the buyer isn't even interested in that particular board. The other boards are well worth the $40. Have the seller send a message to the buyer to let him know that you are interested in that single board. Dwight > From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:10:58 -0400 > > In case anyone on the list won this ebay auction: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360303684042&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT > > and doesn't know what that little thin rectangular > board with the caps, resistors and coax on it is, > it is an original Software Tech Music System board. > The docs and software for it are on Jim Battle's > Sol website. Not much to it electronically, but I > really wanted an original. Rats! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:55:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:55:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 30, 10 03:30:39 pm Message-ID: > I've been outbid by lots of folks with deeper pockets than mine (there > are plenty of them out there). I've also been seen clear evidence of OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay for the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not really upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more than I was. No problem > bid-rigging on auctions I was bidding on. When I see it, I'm done. > More than one of those auctions has been "won" by the 12-hour-old > account with zero feedback. I presume the item then gets relisted. I > wouldn't know. I'm done with that seller. There is a scam (I believe) that's been tried on me a couple of times. It goes like this : 1) Seller (legitimately) lists item) 2) Several people bid on it (legitimately) 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second highest bid limit) Logically, the buyer should be prepared to pay for the item (by having that bid limit he's saying that he thinks the item is worth that much). But I sstill feel it's a scam, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:43:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:43:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 30, 10 12:20:38 pm Message-ID: > > I'm puzzled when people don't realize you can buy something NEW for less > > than a bid price. > > This is something that really drives me crazy. This isn't simply a problem I could have been caught by this too (but wasn't...). As you know, I am looking at multimeters at the moment. I've seen some very nice Agilent bench instruments on E-bay with B-I-N that I could just about afford. And then I found I could get them new from a reputable UK supplier for less. I'm not saying, of course, that the E-bay seller is in any way disreputable, but if I am goign to spend that sort of money I would rather go to a company that I _know_ I can trust... > with eBay either, I frequently see this on Craigslist for the stuff I > monitor it for. > > I recently ran into just this issue at a Camera store that takes > consignments. They had a very nice used book on Paper Negatives I was > interested in. I almost bought it, but couldn't bring myself to pay what > they wanted. Then I learned you could not only get the book new still, but > that it was on Amazon for 2/5ths what the store wanted. Needless to say a > new copy of the book is sitting on my desk at this moment. Of coruse sometimes the older edition is rarer and thus more valuable to a collector. Personally, I have books fot hte information they contain... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:46:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:46:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4E51A.1070908@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 30, 10 03:29:30 pm Message-ID: > Come on, you don't have a box of mice kicking around? Even > nontechnical people I know have at least two or three in a closet somewhere. Err, no I don't. And nor do I have piles of keyboards, disk drives, etc. I do have plenty of boxes of ICs, resistors, microswitches, LEDs, and so on. That is the level I repair at. In any case, I have so many different types of mice with different interfaces on my machines here that I couldn't possibly keep spares for all of them.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:11:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 10 08:50:02 pm Message-ID: > You use a mouse? I'd have thought that was a bit modern for you, Tony! Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted that one out yet. Plenty of machines with quadrature mice : PERQ 3A, Whitechapel MG1, Acorn Archimedes, Atari ST, Amiga. etc. And if you include Trackballs, I've got several image display iuntis for the PDP11 that use them. And HP-HIL mince (HP Integral, HP150-II, etc). And the Kriz mouse on the PERQ 2s (but that's more of a graphics tablet, I supose) The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would it be on an MDA (text only) display? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:20:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:20:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 10 08:54:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: > >> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I > >> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from > >> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. > > > > Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the > > mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may > > be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability > > ot get the machine workign again is very useful... > > Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for repairers. Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. > > >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of > >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I > >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along > > > > How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? > > Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I > have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, > outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or > something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the > user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be > carried away by open-air circulation. External heatsinks on hi-fi amplifiers have been around from the tiem of the first transitorised power amplifier :-). The thing is, though, audio amplifiers work at fairly low frequencies. So you can mount the output transistors, etc, directly on the heatsink, and link them to the rest of the components (e.g. by fitting them near the edge of the PCB amd mounting the PCB on an angle bracket fixed ot the heatsink. AMy amplifiers are built that way. But you can't do that with the much higher speed signals goign to a PC's processor or graphics chip or whatever. The pesky speed of light gets in the way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:29:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:29:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 30, 10 06:13:54 pm Message-ID: > And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Nitpicker, start your engi= > nes. Err, not for the version that was run on my 11/730 before I got it... VAX/VMS maybe, but not Open-anything... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:35:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:35:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 30, 10 03:33:21 pm Message-ID: > LOL! As long as the problem isn't shill bidding an the like I couldn't > agree more. Sniping is basically built into the system. If I can't be > online when it ends to snipe an auction I typically won't bid. Right now I > have a real problem, an auction with a part I need badly ends at 6:15am on > Saturday. There is no way I'm getting up that early, do I bid, or wait for I don;t get this. Why don't you simple do what E-bay origianlly intended you to do. Decide what that part is worth to you and bid that ammount. If you win it, you've got it for a price less than you think it's worth (so you've 'won'), if somevody outbids you (whether a 'snipe' or not), well, they were prepared to pay moe for it than you were. It happens. OK, I don;t use E-bay as much as most people here, I guess, but so far I've done the above. NEver sniped. Of course I am sometimes outbid. I would expect to me. But I do win things. Probably more than I am outbid on, acutally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:39:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Sep 30, 10 09:44:18 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > Mark > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 1 17:00:52 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:00:52 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Another 935 shot... >> >> Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > > -tony Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am sticking to it. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:07:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:07:18 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've been outbid by lots of folks with deeper pockets than mine (there >> are plenty of them out there). ?I've also been seen clear evidence of > > OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay for > the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not really > upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more than I was. > No problem That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:08:27 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:08:27 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) Ask my girlfriend. She's the one who puts up with my computer collecting and wanted the cats in the first place. :) Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 17:08:58 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: >> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >> >> -tony > > Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to roam > while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am sticking to > it. Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get them the hardware they desire. Zane From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:12:10 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:12:10 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >>> >>> -tony >> >> Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to >> roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am >> sticking to it. > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. Especially when that hardware gets warm and vibrates a little... One of my cats loves to sit on anything that vibrates when it's turned on (fans, computers, you name it). Mark From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 17:43:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:43:51 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 30, 10 03:30:39 pm, Message-ID: <4CA601B7.8275.1759043@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 21:55, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay > for the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not > really upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more > than I was. No problem Back in the early days of eBay (when Paypal would *pay* you $20 to join) I did my bidding using a dialup line and Mosaic, I became very frustrated to be aced out by bidders with faster connections. I purchased a software package that did sniping; it was better, but my connection speed and quality still limited me--and eBay frowned on sniping and changed its web pages several times in an attempt to thwart auto-sniping software. Eventually, I signed up with a new service called eSnipe and paid a fee (1% of the winning bid with a cap at $100 gavel and nothing for items under $25). I still use it and enjoy the original terms. Since most of what I bid on is under $25, I haven't paid eSnipe a cent in years. (New subscribers do not get the sweetheart deal). I tell eSnipe to bid what I'm willing to pay. Sometimes I get the item; other times, I don't. I don't get caught up in the final minutes frenzy. Exposing everyone's bid maximum during an auction would be like playing poker with all cards showing. No fun. All in all, eBay's kept a fairly honest game. Excite and Yahoo auctions were rife with abuse--fortunately, they're gone--and good riddance. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 12:51:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:51:35 -0600 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:44:28 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is > written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Really? Because I find that application software favors the mouse, i.e. keyboard shortcuts/navigation are often broken or missing. > Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Really? Because moving from the screen to the keyboard with my hand is a *huge* distance compared to moving my hand to the left from the keyboard (yes, I'm right handed but left mouse due to RSI). For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that as a good transition. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 1 18:39:19 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:39:19 -0600 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >>> >>> -tony >> >> Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed >> to roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I >> am sticking to it. > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... > Zane > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:48:59 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:48:59 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >>> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >>> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >>> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >> Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >> mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >> be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >> ot get the machine workign again is very useful... > > Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. cheaper and faster is good if that's what the consumer really needs (rather than what marketing and peers can convince them that they need). Otherwise, it's just wasteful. A quadrillion GHz CPU and a metric buttload of memory doesn't let me send more email or allow me to write documents any faster :-) I could play the latest must-have game, I suppose, if I had any interest in [modern] games. > Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I > have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, > outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or > something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the > user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be > carried away by open-air circulation. For many* of the hifi's that I've seen, the heatsinks were usually just on the main power transistors, and these could be mounted on the rear wall of the case on the reverse side of the heatsink. As someone else mentioned, there's quite a lot of stuff in a modern PC which needs cooling, and reorganising it so that it could all sit on the back wall of the case could be tricky. * I did have a wonderful old Pioneer with the hot zone somewhere in the middle of the chassis; there was a grille on the underside and another one in the middle of the wooden case-top to allow the heat to escape. I bet a lot of them failed when people managed to block the vents :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:53:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:53:46 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And HP-HIL mince that raised a chuckle :-) > The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would > it be on an MDA (text only) display? I'm pretty sure I had one on a PC before I had a graphics display - it was handy for cut and paste. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 18:52:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:52:05 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 17:39, ben wrote: > We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the board? I've tried warm water and mild detergent to no good effect. Easy Off aerosol oven cleaner (basically lye) follwed by a good rinse and dry seems to work much better. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:56:10 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:56:10 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> References: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA6751A.7010305@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm pretty sure I had one on a PC before I had a graphics display - it > was handy for cut and paste. I'm so used to saying that these days! Copy and paste, of course ;-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 1 19:08:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 20:08:31 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <61E2172DA7D24B0DB1048747DB3901CD@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 7:52 PM Subject: Re: Another 935 shot... > On 1 Oct 2010 at 17:39, ben wrote: > >> We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... > > So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and > PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the > board? > > I've tried warm water and mild detergent to no good effect. Easy Off > aerosol oven cleaner (basically lye) follwed by a good rinse and dry > seems to work much better. > > --Chuck > Something would have to be every rare and worth money for me to bother cleaning mouse poop out of anything. From jthecman at netscape.net Fri Oct 1 19:48:51 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 20:48:51 -0400 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs Message-ID: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Hello Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be great. Thanks JK From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 17:16:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:16:27 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:07:18 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Mark Davidson writes: > That's far more than I would ever have paid. ...and the outcome would have been the same whether or not the person who put down the $300 bid sniped or not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 20:26:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:26:02 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:43:51 -0700. <4CA601B7.8275.1759043@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CA601B7.8275.1759043 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Exposing everyone's bid maximum during an auction would be like > playing poker with all cards showing. No fun. Straw man argument. NOONE is suggesting that your maximum bid be exposed during the auction. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Oct 1 20:37:24 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/1/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for > adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B > and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the > other > result depending on the carry-out.? This seems to me > to be a huge > waste of logic. I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. I'm wondering if, historically, the situation was any better in hardwired logic. It was common in those days to do carry propagation in a second cycle (minor cycle, clock phase). This allowed such tricks as using a gated toggle input on the accumulator flip-flops as an XOR/accumulate, to implement the XOR part of a half-adder. This was even done for 2's complement. --Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 1 21:01:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:01:14 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6926A.9040503@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other > result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge > waste of logic. > > Has anyone in their FPGA simulations ever run into this one and come > up with a clever solution? Umm... the use of two adders and a mux *IS* the clever solution. Unless you're going to have a large array of one's complement adders for some reason, the resource utilization will be in the noise. It is also generally faster than most (if not all) other ways of implementing one's complement addition. Unfortunately Sun managed to patent this in 1999, despite it having been common practice for many years. US patent number 6,343,306. I haven't tried to find specific prior art, but I recall seeing it done that way in the early 1980s. The other clever way to do it, if you happen to have a two's complement adder that has a Generate output for carry lookahead (which you won't have in an FPGA, unless you implement it yourself), is to tie the Generate output to the carry input. Honeywell had a patent on that, now expired: US 4,298,952. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 21:16:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:16:32 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 18:37, William Maddox wrote: > I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I > presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely > combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for > execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. Exactly--if you take a simple adder and send the carry-out to the carry-in, you wind up with a race condition. You could clock the circuit and run a second addition/increment based on the presence of carry-out, but then you've got a synchronous adder with a delay of either one or two clocks. If you're after an adder that operates either asynchronously or synchronously in a specific number of clocks, you have to settle for 2 clocks--one clock seems not to be possible. I've been doing some research since my post and patent 4,298,952 uses ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. The other patent I can find on the subject is essentially the scheme that I first described--compute two sums and then select the appropriate one--is 6,343,306, published in (surprisingly) 2002 and assigned to Sun. Another is 4,099,248, from 1978, that describes a substractive adder, such as used in the older CDC gear (minimizes the problem of negative zero), but implemented with 10K ECL logic blocks. This one's been scratching at my brain for some time and I wondered if anyone had any background on it. Thanks, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 1 22:08:56 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 20:08:56 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? Message-ID: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? Long story: I picked up a neat-o keen display unit. (See http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/avtron/IMG_0477.JPG for a picture) It uses two *huge* Panaplex displays (Babcock SP-431's) showing 4 7-segment digits (with 2" digit height) each. It's made by Avtron, an industrial automation hardware company -- I got in touch with their support department and they helped me identify the display (it's a "K885 Extrabrite display" designed to be used with their K885 "Speed / Draw" systems). Alas, they can't provide any interface specifications (which is about what I expected), so all I know is that it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with connectors labeled "High" and "Low") I was thinking that if I could get a dump of the microcontroller ROM, I might be able to either (a) decipher the protocol enough to allow another microcontroller/PC to control the display, or (b) decipher the hardware enough to figure out how to write a replacement EEPROM for the onboard microcontroller... I think this thing would make a *really* cool clock... - Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 22:21:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 00:21:39 -0300 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? I have, but I'm a bit too far away from you :) You can try a willem programmer with MCS-51 adapter, or a Wellon VP-280 USB programmer... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 1 23:28:24 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:28:24 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 8:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Oct 2010 at 18:37, William Maddox wrote: > >> I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I >> presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely >> combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for >> execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. > > Exactly--if you take a simple adder and send the carry-out to the > carry-in, you wind up with a race condition. You could clock the > circuit and run a second addition/increment based on the presence of > carry-out, but then you've got a synchronous adder with a delay of > either one or two clocks. If you're after an adder that operates > either asynchronously or synchronously in a specific number of > clocks, you have to settle for 2 clocks--one clock seems not to be > possible. > what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. if you have no carry out, no problem. if you have a carry, the carry must stabilize before you have the start of the carry out propagate. so a 1x delay is needed as the back of the envelope calculations. Off hand I can't think of what gives over flow, the more important thing. > Thanks, > Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 23:50:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 21:50:12 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 22:28, ben wrote: > what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. See the following paper: http://crc.stanford.edu/crc_papers/Shedletsky_cos.pdf --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 2 00:04:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101001220336.B84833@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've seen a little discussion of ones'complement (or "compliment if > you're a recent graduate of the US university system) on the EDA "We've come to negate that number, not to praise it." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 2 00:21:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 > for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it > 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like > 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. > 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then > offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting > that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second > highest bid limit) another variant: 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 01:07:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 02:07:29 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. > 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. > 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" > 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when > you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. This is a variant on "bid shielding", and is a well known pattern. It sticks out like a sore thumb. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 02:10:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:10:55 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6DAFF.4090306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 10:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Oct 2010 at 22:28, ben wrote: > >> what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. > > See the following paper: > > http://crc.stanford.edu/crc_papers/Shedletsky_cos.pdf Why? I was thinking of it on-line when I read the message. I'll stick to real gates, rather than the fictional gates you play with today. > --Chuck > Ben. Who is up working on hardware I always wanted to build, now writing the microcode at the wee hours of the morning. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 06:22:24 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > :-) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 > Slick. however i dotn by thngs frim vendors that run sentances together and cannt spel very wel OR USE ALL CAPZ AND DONOT SPEL THAT WAY ITHER it suggest thta thare may be othar issues that will crop up i don't know... -- From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 21:44:43 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:44:43 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: well, lets see. i have been using ebay since before i was 18, even though it was against TOS, and had to pay in cash, back when you could, so since about 2000. i have seen the system evolve greatly. i normally use buy it now to purchase things, about 99.99% of my purchases are buy it now. i will admit, i have bid sniped quite a few times, but i keep it to a minimum. i only snipe within the max im willing to spend, as i have been burned and had to pay outrageous ammounts before. ebay buyer protection is a double edged sword. example, i once bought a vintage mac, to find the seller removed the stains on it by washing it in acetone. i tried to file a complaint, they wanted me to send it back, shipping not refundable. it wouldve cost me more to send back than it cost me for the item. basically, sellers can send you trash, but you could send it back and get back less than the original cost. but i think they may have fixed that. ebay has also turned into a place of unrealistic values for old equipment, where people demand 10x reasonable value for an item and justify it by labeling it "vintage" or "retro" when it is something under 20 years old and was made in mass production. i do feel removing sellers rights to negative feedback was a good idea, as in the day ii ran across a few sellers who were running scams, and listed in their profile "i leave negative feedback for negative feedback" or the real world equivalent of "if you tell what im doing, ill tell the world you are dealing coke out of your family's home" but at the same time it makes it hard for sellers to deal with abusive or scam buyers, like the time ii sold a PBX card in working order, had a dealer buy it for less than his retail, and sent me a bad card back which was physically different than the one i sold him, ebay attempted to take the money back, could only take so much before my bank told them no, so he left me negative feedback, but i was able to leave it for him as well. From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 07:02:54 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 08:02:54 -0400 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other > result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge > waste of logic. > > > that's been the problem with FPGA synthesis all along, they've never been more than average at best as they always say, when in doubt, instantiate ! ;) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 2 07:33:14 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:33:14 -0400 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CA7268A.1010802@verizon.net> On 10/01/2010 11:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? > > Long story: I picked up a neat-o keen display unit. (See > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/avtron/IMG_0477.JPG for a picture) > It uses two *huge* Panaplex displays (Babcock SP-431's) showing 4 > 7-segment digits (with 2" digit height) each. > > It's made by Avtron, an industrial automation hardware company -- I > got in touch with their support department and they helped me identify > the display (it's a "K885 Extrabrite display" designed to be used with > their K885 "Speed / Draw" systems). Alas, they can't provide any > interface specifications (which is about what I expected), so all I > know is that it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with > connectors labeled "High" and "Low") > > I was thinking that if I could get a dump of the microcontroller ROM, > I might be able to either (a) decipher the protocol enough to allow > another microcontroller/PC to control the display, or (b) decipher the > hardware enough to figure out how to write a replacement EEPROM for > the onboard microcontroller... I think this thing would make a > *really* cool clock... > > - Josh > > > I'm too far away. However if you find a copy of the 8048/49 Intel books the procedure for dumping the Eprom is trivial though its 2048 bytes in size by 8bits. Once you have the content I rember somewhere on the net seeing a decent disassembler. Allison From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 2 07:51:38 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:51:38 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing indeed). Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:44 PM Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse You're mixing two different arguments, but there is merit to both. Once upon a time, I worked on speech recognition and synthesis at Microsoft - we shipped the first Speech API that wasn't produced by Microsoft Research. (Instead of 137 interfaces, there were five.) It was a good product, offering quite accurate speaker-independent recognition, but it wasn't going to replace keyboards. For one thing: it's bad enough when you have a roomfull of people talking on telephones. Imagine if they were also talking to their computers! One of the problems speech recognition has yet to solve is the so-called 'cocktail party' scenario: a computer cannot pick out and focus on one voice among many. So if the woman in the next cubicle has a particularly loud, penetrating voice (not that that's ever happened to me), your results may vary.... I've also noticed that people who are talking to devices don't modulate their voices the same way people do when talking to other people. There's no sense of feedback, and volume rises. (It's interesting that the only place voice systems have really become successful is - on the phone!) Further, since the device isn't perfect but again provides no mitigating feedback upon error, people rapidly become frustrated with voice systems, once again leading to raised voices. IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Spoken interaction is dramatically different from either command-line interaction or its translation to the GUI. This goes beyond UI, and requires a very different model of communication with our digital companions. Given the above objection, no one has put much time or money into tackling the problem. Speech recognition will not catch on either among vendors or customers if it's simply a replacement for the keyboard and the model of interaction it engenders. Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Remember the cute little pop-out mouse on the HP Omnibook? As we move more to mobile devices (a category in which the iPad barely 'fits'!), physical pointing devices are awkward (including a stylus, which is easily lost). But once again we will need to make changes to our user interfaces: isn't it fun trying to select one line from a single-spaced list on a Web page? (I have an Android-based 7" tablet, which I'm coming to dearly love.) Also, there is a very significant difference between the mouse and the touchscreen: the former has a persistent cursor. The touchscreen has no 'default' for 'clicking' but instead enables all visible icons as potential action objects. This is more akin to the light-pen/gun devices that predate the mouse (the mouse was not the original pointing device). This subtle difference can make it challenging to port a mouse-based application to a touchscreen. While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means of communication. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code with >50% punctuation... When I see photos of the 'keyboardless' ipad, more often than not there's a virtual keyboard taking up half of that very expensive screen... I giggle and keep on typing :-) Alexey From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 08:56:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 06:56:15 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu ---snip--- so all I know is that > it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with connectors labeled > "High" and "Low") > Hi This leads me to think it is 422 or 485 levels. If so, it is most likely async serial. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 09:15:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 07:15:17 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu>, <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: Hi I'm not sure but I don't think the 48 family was socket comatible with the 51 for programming. Dwight > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Dumping an Intel D8749? > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 00:21:39 -0300 > > > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? > > I have, but I'm a bit too far away from you :) > > You can try a willem programmer with MCS-51 adapter, or a Wellon VP-280 > USB programmer... > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 09:16:56 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 09:16:56 -0500 Subject: Amish Software? Message-ID: <9hfea6dic3em1jtd74o00vo042p6qi7sbs@4ax.com> Found in the junkbox: An unused 5.25" floppy from Amish Software "Bonus Disk: Amish Bundling includes Amish Launch and Amish Desk Utilities for Windows" (1991). Another with Creative Labs' "Game Blaster Demo & Intelligent Organ" (1989). Price - Almost free (for postage) ;) thanks Charles From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 09:36:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 07:36:13 -0700 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > :-) > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 > > > > Slick. however i dotn by thngs frim vendors that run sentances together > and cannt spel very wel OR USE ALL CAPZ AND DONOT SPEL THAT WAY ITHER it > suggest thta thare may be othar issues that > will crop up i don't know... > Hi It is a really cool combination. It looks like the KTM-2 is the 40 column board. I wonder if it is the older or newer version. The newer one could be expanded to 80 columns with a few parts. I wonder what the wires are that are on the RAMs. I suspect they may be larger RAMs than what came with the board. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 11:50:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > patent 4,298,952 uses > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 12:28:22 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:28:22 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> On 02/10/2010 10:50 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > patent 4,298,952 uses > > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. > > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if you're > using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an ASIC, > you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an FPGA > you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun patented) > will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. Then again watch the hardware, a FPGA with fast hardware ripple carry may do something sneaky to the logic. > Eric > Ben,who is back to designing on paper since I can't find a ISB jtag cable here in Canada. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 13:04:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:04:08 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 9:50, Eric Smith wrote: > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if > you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in > an ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. > In an FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun > patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be > faster. Why the Sun patent doesn't qualify as "prior art" is beyond me. But the patent system is "grant first, litigate later", so it figures. I'll probably end up doing a 2-stage/2-clock adder-followed-by- incrementer. At least it's straightforward. Thanks, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 13:52:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:52:08 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Why the Sun patent doesn't qualify as "prior art" is beyond me. I'm confused. Which patent are you saying should qualify as prior art? The Sun patent is fairly recent, so it can't qualify as prior art with respect to the older patents we've mentioned. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 14:23:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 12:23:19 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 11:52, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm confused. Which patent are you saying should qualify as prior art? > The Sun patent is fairly recent, so it can't qualify as prior art with > respect to the older patents we've mentioned. It's hard to believe that the approach used in the Sun patent hadn't been used commercially before. That's what I meant by "prior art". --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 14:23:33 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 14:23:33 -0500 Subject: FS: Assembler Language Programming, Systems/360 and 370 Message-ID: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> More old stuff I don't need but you might :) Large paperback textbook, "Assembler Language Programming Systems/360 and 370" by Sharon K. Tuggle, 1975, 511 pages. $5 plus actual Media Mail shipping. thanks Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 13:59:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:59:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 1, 10 11:51:35 am Message-ID: > For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens > replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that > as a good transition. TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the desk) when you are doing the pointing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 14:31:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:31:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Oct 1, 10 03:07:18 pm Message-ID: > That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if > someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like > "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't > willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for > almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. And while it is momentarily disapoining when I'm the second-highest bidder and I find the item sold for 'only $1 more than I was prepared to pay' (or whatever the bid increment is), I then rememebr that I have no way of knwoing what the high bidder's limit was. I was probslby otubit by a lot more than $1. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 14:35:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:35:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cats and classic computers... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 1, 10 03:08:58 pm Message-ID: > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. One of my previous cats had a liking for anythign HP. He would routinely sleep on HP manuals and ignore, say, DEC ones :-). The cat who currently chooses to live with me (a stray ginger and white cat who I've given a simple 4-letter name to [1]) hasn't shown any particular manufacturer bias yet. But he's deficed that PERQs are there to be climbed on :-). [1] It's a common 4-letter word. You can deduce it as follows : He's a (partly) amher cat. Think of the ancient Greek word for 'Amber', then think of the obvious connection with that, and then realise that he's somewhat heavy. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 14:50:35 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 12:50:35 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > It's hard to believe that the approach used in the Sun patent hadn't > been used commercially before. That's what I meant by "prior art". In patent-speak, what you mean is that you're surpised that there isn't some earlier commercial development which qualifies as prior art to invalidate the Sun claims. The Sun patent can only be prior art for things that come after it. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 2 14:51:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:51:10 +0100 Subject: WTD: Copy of CD from "Programming Psion Computers" Message-ID: <4CA78D2E.6080002@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone happen to have a copy of "Programming Psion Computers" by Leigh Edwards (published by EMCC Software) sitting on the bookshelf? I've just bought a copy, complete with CD.... but the good ol' Royal Mail have managed to snap the CD clean in two. An ISO image or CD-R copy would be most useful... The publisher has gone bust, and I haven't managed to find any trace of the author either :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 15:19:17 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:19:17 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA793C5.40900@brouhaha.com> Ben wrote: > Then again watch the hardware, a FPGA with fast hardware ripple carry may do something sneaky to the logic. It might use carry-lookahead internally, but it doesn't give you access to generate and propagate outputs, so if you want those you'll have to do it yourself. That makes the Honeywell approach generally less suited to FPGA use. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 15:27:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:27:59 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7335F.19679.D71278@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 12:50, Eric Smith wrote: > In patent-speak, what you mean is that you're surpised that there > isn't some earlier commercial development which qualifies as prior art > to invalidate the Sun claims. The Sun patent can only be prior art for > things that come after it. I misspoke--that's what I meant. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 07:34:54 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 14:34:54 +0200 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs In-Reply-To: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:48 AM, wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor > computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, > or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be > great. > > Thanks > JK > Is it something like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display Do you have pictures? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From pinball at telus.net Sat Oct 2 10:48:34 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:48:34 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA75452.4050703@telus.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 >> for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it >> 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like >> 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. >> 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then >> offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting >> that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second >> highest bid limit) >> > > another variant: > 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. > 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. > 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" > 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when > you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. > > That's why I only 'snipe' bid on auctions. Chances of this happening are much rarer, and I only put in my snipe offer the most I am willing to pay. Win many, loose some, usually much less than I was willing to offer. If it is something very rare I still use the same process. The shill bidders will pull out at the last few minutes and my bid is put in the last second so no chance of shilling. If the shill looses by winning the auction they will put the item up again later giving me another chance - this time the auction usually is less as a number of people simply give up and move on to something else... I also don't watch the auction bids, otherwise I might get caught up in the action and over-ride my snipe. John :-#)# From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Oct 2 11:16:56 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:16:56 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 05:34:50 pm, <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA75AF8.5050802@tx.rr.com> On 9/29/2010 3:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Somewhat on-topic and coincidental, EDN's "Prying Eyes" series looks > at a nearly-40-year-old Sharp microwave oven and marvels at the > simplicity and robust design. What I gather from the article is that > the oven still works fine: > > http://bit.ly/dA6bSM > > What's notable is the electromechanical timer. How many microwave > ovens made 20 years later with electronic controls are still > functional? > > --Chuck > > I can't really answer your question of course, but I can tell you that we have a GE microwave purchased about 1987 with electronic controls that still works just fine. The logic power supply in it must have minimal filtering, as we get the "PF" indication any time there is the slightest power blip and when all other electronic clocks in the house show no effect. I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The only things we've ever lost that I think I can blame on surges are a couple of telephones. Those may have been telco line surges rather than power line ones for all I know. Later, Charlie C. From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 2 13:06:27 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 18:06:27 +0000 Subject: Another 935 shot... Message-ID: On Fri Oct 1 16:39:32 CDT 2010, Tony Duell (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) submitted the following words of wisdom: >> >> Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > > -tony Have you played the card game called "Chez Geek"? If you have, and you didn't know it before, you would have learned that cats are an essential companion to any geek who is really serious about his or her geekhood. /Jonas From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 2 13:56:22 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 19:56:22 +0100 Subject: WTD: Copy of CD from "Programming Psion Computers" Message-ID: <4CA78056.3050204@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone happen to have a copy of "Programming Psion Computers" by Leigh Edwards (published by EMCC Software) sitting on the bookshelf? I've just bought a copy, complete with CD.... but the good ol' Royal Mail have managed to snap the CD clean in two. An ISO image or CD-R copy would be most useful... The publisher has gone bust, and I haven't managed to find any trace of the author either :( Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Oct 2 16:01:04 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 21:01:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FS: Assembler Language Programming, Systems/360 and 370 In-Reply-To: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> References: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Charles wrote: > More old stuff I don't need but you might :) > > Large paperback textbook, "Assembler Language Programming > Systems/360 and 370" by Sharon K. Tuggle, 1975, 511 pages. > $5 plus actual Media Mail shipping. If it's not claimed already, I'd like it! Do you take paypal? I'm in 27606... Alexey From jthecman at netscape.net Sat Oct 2 16:26:01 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 17:26:01 -0400 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs In-Reply-To: References: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD308F8B9C5176-714-1D907@webmail-m039.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 7:34 am Subject: Re: Need Help Finding Docs On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:48 AM, wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor > computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, > or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be > great. > > Thanks > JK > Is it something like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display Do you have pictures? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen No it looks nothing like the ones in the pictures. I will get one or two on Monday when I check the warehouse. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 18:49:42 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 16:49:42 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > patent 4,298,952 uses > > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. > > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if > you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an > ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an > FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun > patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. > > Eric > Hi Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 19:22:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 17:22:03 -0700 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: , <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org>, Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > > Wow. That's loaded. I have a SYM-1 but I've never seen the KTM2 > keyboard before. > > -ethan > > Hi Ethan I have two KTM2 ( neather for sale ). They two basic versions. One was 40 column only and the other could be converted to an 80 column. Both of mine are 40 column only but I've been trying to figure out how to modify it to do 80. I have the schematic for the 40 but not the one that can be converted to an 80. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 19:30:48 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 17:30:48 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance as a full-adder. Eric From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 2 19:37:00 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:37:00 -0400 Subject: anyone coming up through MD towards (or to, or beyond) MA sometime this year ? Message-ID: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> Have a BA23 pedestal enclosure I'd like to get from Rockville MD area.... and the local UPS store down there wan'ts $60ish for packing materials/packing charge (the $30+ to ship). So, thought I'd see if anyone was making a run through that area up this way per chance. Probably not, but thought I'd check anyway. Let me know if you are. Thanks, -- Curt From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 21:23:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:23:17 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Dwight wrote: > > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. > > In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. > > In most FPGAs, it will end up taking the same resources and having the > same performance as a full-adder. > > Eric > Hi Half area but just as long in time. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 21:45:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 19:45:58 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. I wrote: >> In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it >> will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance >> as a full-adder. Dwight wrote: > Half area but just as long in time. Same area in FPGA, not half. Almost all FPGAs use LUTs with four or more inputs, and half-adders generally end up taking a full LUT, just as a full-adder does. The exception would be when the incrementer (half-adders) could be merged with the previous stage of logic, but when the incrementer follows a full-adder, you can't merge them, because they each need a separate carry chain. Eric From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 21:56:51 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:56:51 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find a BP-8 battery pack for my TI Programmer (calculator) that I've owned since the early 80's? It has a small dc-dc converter and two AA nicads inside, supplying 9 volts to the snap-on connector. The board is corroded beyond salvaging by badly leaked nicads :( It will run on a 9 volt battery too (max drain with all digits on is 44 ma according to this interesting German site): http://www.christophlorenz.de/calc/ti/programmer.php?l=en and I suppose I could just put one inside the plastic housing of the BP-8 which of course would not be rechargeable. I also need a pack for my otherwise clean SR-51A, a BP-1A. This would be trivial to repair except that it's completely missing and I have no idea where it went! thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 22:13:20 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 22:13:20 -0500 Subject: TI calculator battery packs cont'd Message-ID: I just found another great site in Germany: http://www.stschmid.de/calculators/ in which he redesigned the dc-dc converter board inside the BP-8 with surface-mount components, and even sells them... for $25 plus $12 postage :( Guess I'll be using 9V batteries, or perhaps tuck a rechargeable one (which is really only 8.4 volts) inside the plastic case with a suitable diode and resistor for charging from the wall-wart. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 22:45:35 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:45:35 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , ,,<803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, ,,<4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , , , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Dwight wrote: > > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. > > I wrote: > >> In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it > >> will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance > >> as a full-adder. > Dwight wrote: > > Half area but just as long in time. > Same area in FPGA, not half. Almost all FPGAs use LUTs with four or > more inputs, and half-adders generally end up taking a full LUT, just as > a full-adder does. The exception would be when the incrementer > (half-adders) could be merged with the previous stage of logic, but when > the incrementer follows a full-adder, you can't merge them, because they > each need a separate carry chain. > > Eric > Haaa! Evil FPGA! Would it be possible to put two half adders in a single LUT? Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 23:06:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:06:12 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , , , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA80134.6070500@brouhaha.com> Dwight asks: > Haaa! Evil FPGA! > Would it be possible to put two half adders in a single LUT? Dwight Generally not. Traditional Xilinx FPGAs, such as the Virtex-4 and Spartan-3 families, use a logic element that consists of a 4-LUT (four-input Look-Up Table) and a flip-flop. (You don't have to use the flip-flop.) There are some added complications such as the dedicated carry logic chain. The 4-LUT is a 16-word 1-bit RAM, and gets loaded when the FPGA is configured. It can generate a single boolean function of up to four inputs. The reason I say "generally not" is that recent Xilinx FPGAs, such as the Virtex-5, Virtex-6, and Spartan-6, use what Xilinx calls a 6-LUT, with two flip-flops. This can be used as two 5-LUTs to generate two functions of five inputs, provided that the same five inputs are shared between both functions. You actually could put two half-adders into one of these 6-LUTs, if you didn't want to take advantage of the dedicated carry logic chain. However, the dedicated carry logic chain is much faster than the usual through-the-fabric routing, so if you need your one's complement adder to have high performance, you won't want to do it that way. Eric From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sat Oct 2 23:47:37 2010 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 23:47:37 -0500 Subject: Cats (Was: Another 935 shot...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101003044737.GA28804@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 10:39:32PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) Beats me. I have seven dogs, no cats. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:21:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 02:21:47 -0300 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: Message-ID: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to > get > them the hardware they desire. BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:39:18 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 16:39:18 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a reserve or put it at the actual price. On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if > > someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like > > "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't > > willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for > > almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. > > And while it is momentarily disapoining when I'm the second-highest bidder > and I find the item sold for 'only $1 more than I was prepared to pay' (or > whatever the bid increment is), I then rememebr that I have no way of > knwoing what the high bidder's limit was. I was probslby otubit by a lot > more than $1. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 3 00:48:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi > wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. They seem to prefer the IBM model M. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:53:04 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:53:04 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at > $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then > when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is > if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a > reserve or put it at the actual price. A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap tablet I had bought from a company in China. Opening bid was 50 cents with free shipping. I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the seller did ship it for free. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:53:40 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:53:40 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at >> $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then >> when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is >> if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a >> reserve or put it at the actual price. > > A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap > tablet I had bought from a company in China. ?Opening bid was 50 cents > with free shipping. ?I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the > seller did ship it for free. Oh, and I should add that the seller was in Hong Kong, and he shipped it air mail. Mark From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 3 01:43:41 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 02:43:41 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: Message-ID: <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> Seems like some of those sellers get free shipping somehow. I won items that winning amount could not have covered shipping. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Davidson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, >> at >> $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, >> then >> when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, >> is >> if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a >> reserve or put it at the actual price. > > A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap > tablet I had bought from a company in China. Opening bid was 50 cents > with free shipping. I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the > seller did ship it for free. Oh, and I should add that the seller was in Hong Kong, and he shipped it air mail. Mark From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 3 02:27:14 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 00:27:14 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Oct 1, 10 11:51:35 am, Message-ID: But if your initial interaction is not with a keyboard but with a touchscreen (as is more common with mobile devices), then the argument is different. Yes, I've dealt with older touch screen machines, and felt that they just weren't Ready For Prime Time. The new tablet devices usually take good advantage of a touchscreen and recognize that it isn't a mouse - it's something different in a pointing device. This is about a fundamental change in how people interact with computing devices. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:59 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution > For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens > replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that > as a good transition. TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the desk) when you are doing the pointing. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 02:51:15 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 03:51:15 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi >> wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP > > You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. > They seem to prefer the IBM model M. Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 3 03:18:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 01:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> > > You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. > > They seem to prefer the IBM model M. On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? Exactly! You can either engage in a futile losing struggle to try to keep them off of your keyboard, or you can give them their own keyboards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 03:47:36 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 09:47:36 +0100 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au Message-ID: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. Can anyone tell me the required spec? Thanks Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 3 08:57:54 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 06:57:54 -0700 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:47 AM +0100 10/3/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. >I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be >unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I >can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to >be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a >particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. > >Can anyone tell me the required spec? Wow, ancient history. :-( IIRC, you need either PC66 or PC100, I don't remember the buffered part, but I think you need parity RAM. I've used RAM out of PC servers in most of my Alpha's (the one exception being my AlphaStation 500/333 which uses proprietary RAM). The DEC 3000/133 & AlphaStation 200 take 72-pin true parity RAM, and the Compaq XP1000's take something at least close to the 433a/au, 500a/au, and 600a/au systems. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:52:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:52:44 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 19:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson >> wrote: >>> >>> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button >>> to >>> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right >>> button >>> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, >>> rather >>> than smaller increments) >> >> Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern >> window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not >> registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the >> core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing >> to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - >> but I might have missed it. > > I don't think it was quite as smooth as Acorn's implementation. I think > there was also functionality in some setups where the amount that the window > scrolled by on a left or right click was dependent on how close to the top > or bottom (or left/right) the mouse pointer was on the window's scrollbars - > but that was a pretty awful feature (because it was hard to judge exactly > how much the window would scroll by for a particular mouse position) Ouch. That sounds unpleasant to navigate. The sort of bright idea a programmer has that makes life difficult for thousands of ordinary users. >>> I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI >>> design >>> - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting >>> reading, >>> seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and >>> their >>> analysis of what the competition was up to. >> >> Oh, that would be cool! > > Yeah, aside from the copyright issue, it's finding the time to sift through > everything and make sure there's nothing *really* sensitive there - e.g. > some of the data came from employee desktop machines, which means that > there's personal data on there as well as corporate stuff. Ah. Snag. Also, possibly, a lot of consent to be sought? >>> Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology >>> works, >>> or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). >> >> They cheat. It does have conventional fans, with blades, they're just >> concealed within the base. No whizzy electrostatic impellers or >> anything here. Nothing to see, move along. :?) > > Urgh :-( I did wonder, but the ads and corporate blurb all go one about them > being bladeless when what they really mean is 'no visible blades' Yup. Sad, really. http://www.reghardware.com/2010/06/23/review_gadgets_dyson_air_multiplier/print.html Quote: ? Dyson is slightly deceptive with its marketing, claiming the fan has "no blades". This is like hiding the wheels of a car behind a low body and claiming it hovers. There are blades - you just can't see them. ? >> But like it or not, the PC is moving toward being a consumer >> appliance, like TVs or phones. There are no commercial TV or phone >> repairmen around any more; the PC will go the same way. >> >> The question is, will they do it well or not? > > I'd put my money on not. Nobody gives a crap about quality any more :-( True. >> And if the big players don't, is there room for a small company to >> make money doing it right? > > Maybe, but it's difficult. A small company won't have the marketing budget, > which means they have to rely far more on word of mouth - and it's difficult > these days to survive long enough to establish a reputation. Once you're > there, not so bad, but getting to that point is the problem. Also true, but it seems to work for some hifi companies. >>> What I >>> really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an >>> average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which >>> have >>> too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) >> >> Entirely agree. But no buttons is also an infinite number of buttons, >> in a way. > > Yes, but an infinite number of buttons with poor feedback :-) Humans like > audible and tactile responses, just as they like visual ones. A telling point! >> Apple /were/ right, like it or not - there are abundant >> >> figures to prove it. 1 button *is* the easiest for novices. > > I agree - but I think it's also a hindrance for more experienced users. > Maybe we need 3-button mice, but an OS that can run in 'single button mode' > for novices, where they don't have to worry about which mouse button they > have to press :-) Well, that is exactly what Apple's efforts do. >> Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being >> multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear >> altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good >> enough. > > I think a lot of the reason that the entire world isn't using Model M's is > the noise factor, though - I'm not sure I could handle an office full of > people babbling away at their computers :-) I know what you mean, and yet, I worked quite happily in computer labs in the 1980s. > Maybe 50 years from now we'll be able to control computers via thought - > that would get rid of a lot of the bottlenecks (I can think far faster than > I can type or speak) and would be silent... The best computer interface I've ever read of was in an Isaac Asimov novel, way back when. One of the later /Foundation/ books, I think. It was in the master stateroom of a private "space yacht". You sat at a table, put your hands on two lighted handprints, and *suddenly got smarter*. You knew the exact positions of all the nearby stars, could do extremely complex math instantly in your head, had perfect recall and an innate sense of local conditions in space. No awareness of any interface whatsoever is surely the best possible interface. >>>> I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless >>>> transciever and batteries. >>> >>> Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of >>> hoo-hah >>> about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have >>> gone >>> quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) >> >> Oh, it's coming. Much argument over techniques and standards. They'll >> squabble for a while then make it work. > > I seem to recall ads for some wireless phone charger here in the US a year > or two ago, but then it all went quiet. Not sure why - maybe their tech just > didn't work, or maybe people just didn't believe that it was real. Palm offered it with the Pr? as an optional extra. > It doesn't seem unreasonable to have a mouse mat that doubles as a charging > pad, though. I am not sure I want a mouse mat that I have to plug in, nor one cluttered with charging devices... :?) >>>> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >>>> am not worried about their longevity. :?) >>> >>> Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) >> >> Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. > > Mine's so ancient that it doesn't even have the status LEDs on it. I do > kind-of miss a caps-lock LED - one of my tests for an apparently-hung system > was always to hit the caps-lock and see if the LED lit; invariably it > wouldn't if the machine had gone completely loopy. Yes, me too. Also, wow, that's an oldie! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:54:18 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:54:18 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: >> You use a mouse? I'd have thought that was a bit modern for you, Tony! > > Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that > uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I > think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted > that one out yet. > > Plenty of machines with quadrature mice : PERQ 3A, Whitechapel MG1, > Acorn Archimedes, Atari ST, Amiga. etc. And if you include Trackballs, > I've got several image display iuntis for the PDP11 that use them. Ahh, fair enough. *Thinks* Wouldn't an upgraded Archimedes, or some other recent RISC OS machine such as an Iyonix, be a better tool for accessing the Internet than a PC-AT with a 486? > And HP-HIL mince (HP Integral, HP150-II, etc). > > And the Kriz mouse on the PERQ 2s (but that's more of a graphics tablet, > I supose) > > The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would > it be on an MDA (text only) display? Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS on a few PCs with mice but no GUI. Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:57:53 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:57:53 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >> >> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >> >> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >> > >> > Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >> > mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >> > be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >> > ot get the machine workign again is very useful... >> >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > > Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be > econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for > repairers. You're right, however, it's a /fait accompli/. I have fetched entirely-working reasonable-spec PCs out of skips before now. Thrown because they were too slow & the owners too lazy and stupid to find a way to give them to charity or recycle them. >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > > Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple > tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least > makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really > annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern > window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and > over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. Concur, personally and for myself, but programming is a lost cause now. User computers are trending towards being very simple Web access devices with limited customisability and extensibility and that is what most people want. The same way they want a simple, reliable car that needs little maintenance and don't give a hoot if they can't perform that maintenance themselves. >> >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of >> >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I >> >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along >> > >> > How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? >> >> Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I >> have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, >> outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or >> something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the >> user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be >> carried away by open-air circulation. > > External heatsinks on hi-fi amplifiers have been around from the tiem of > the first transitorised power amplifier :-). > > The thing is, though, audio amplifiers work at fairly low frequencies. So > you can mount the output transistors, etc, directly on the heatsink, and > link them to the rest of the components (e.g. by fitting them near the > edge of the PCB amd mounting the PCB on an angle bracket fixed ot the > heatsink. AMy amplifiers are built that way. > > But you can't do that with the much higher speed signals goign to a PC's > processor or graphics chip or whatever. The pesky speed of light gets in > the way. That is a good point, but there are heatpipes and other ways of moving heat over relatively short distances, no? Not good enough? I am genuinely curious here... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 10:06:14 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:06:14 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> References: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 00:48, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> >>>> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >>>> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >>>> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >>> >>> Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >>> mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >>> be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >>> ot get the machine workign again is very useful... >> >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > cheaper and faster is good if that's what the consumer really needs (rather > than what marketing and peers can convince them that they need). Otherwise, > it's just wasteful. > > A quadrillion GHz CPU and a metric buttload of memory doesn't let me send > more email or allow me to write documents any faster :-) No, true, but it might start the programs much quicker. If the performance ends up being cheap, it will be offered anyway, even if not "needed". Also, vast parallel performance and stupidly-cheap local storage opens up possibilities of brute-force solutions to some of the hard problems of face/gesture/speech/etc recognition. > I could play the > latest must-have game, I suppose, if I had any interest in [modern] games. Nor do I, but I spent yesterday with some friends at a computer-games exhibition here in London. My $DEITY but some of the modern immersive 3D games are *stunning* now. Really truly beautiful rapid high-refresh real-time high-resolution wrap-around rendering, in actual 3D if you wear special LCD shutter glasses (which are tiny, light and wireless. Good job I wore contact lenses, though.) The kit is about ?250-?300 and a ?1000 PC is more than capable of generating the effects. It was really truly impressive to behold. Suddenly one realises the /point/ of an individual owning a quad-core PC with 4G of RAM and a terabyte of disk, when it can do this. The gap between the state-of-the-art and photorealistic rendering is a sort of Zeno's paradox. You are forever getting closer but never quite there. However, now, a ?40 game is at the level where at a casual glance walking past, I sometimes can't tell in-game graphics from movie footage. If you stop and look, you can, but they're getting there. /Avatar/-level rendering isn't far away. >> Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I >> have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, >> outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or >> something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the >> user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be >> carried away by open-air circulation. > > For many* of the hifi's that I've seen, the heatsinks were usually just on > the main power transistors, and these could be mounted on the rear wall of > the case on the reverse side of the heatsink. As someone else mentioned, > there's quite a lot of stuff in a modern PC which needs cooling, and > reorganising it so that it could all sit on the back wall of the case could > be tricky. Hmmm. Good point. But if one were talking about a very small motherboard with no expansion slots - smaller than mini-ITX - might it not still be doable? > * I did have a wonderful old Pioneer with the hot zone somewhere in the > middle of the chassis; there was a grille on the underside and another one > in the middle of the wooden case-top to allow the heat to escape. I bet a > lot of them failed when people managed to block the vents :-) Oh dear... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 3 10:22:46 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. >>> They seem to prefer the IBM model M. > > On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? > > Exactly! > You can either engage in a futile losing struggle to try to keep them off > of your keyboard, or you can give them their own keyboards. In which case they'll STILL be on your keyboard because even if they have their own, they like yours better. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 11:15:42 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:15:42 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >> as a good transition. > > TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the > HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less > convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand > further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near > keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the > desk) when you are doing the pointing. Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo and the battery lasts a day of use. And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold about three million devices in its first month or so. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 11:30:13 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:30:13 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 13:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice > recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can > understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I > can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found > this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing > indeed). > Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly > (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst > some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. > > Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D > TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. Not until we develop some form of telepathy, no. Speech is the major form of information exchange between humans, and until the time we go to the machines, the machines will be coming to us. They will be improved until they can understand us, or they'll be replaced with something that can. By the same token, most humans have 2 eyes and can see in 3D, therefore, displays will be improved until they can fully exploit the human visual system. 3D isn't that hard. I played /Mafia II/ and /Starcraft II/ in 3D at Eurogamer Expo yesterday. It works well and is really quite impressive. It really did add to the gameplay experience. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 3 12:07:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:07:15 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> References: , <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA855D3.11625.11D3A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2010 at 2:43, Teo Zenios wrote: > Seems like some of those sellers get free shipping somehow. I won > items that winning amount could not have covered shipping. Airmail to the USA (I don't know about other countries) from Hongkong is exceptionally cheap, thanks to some ham-handed negotiations on the part of the US authorities. Since IPU (it's been renamed recently; I don't recall the new name) agreements are essentially treaties, they tend to change very slowly. For a historical tack, cf. Charles Ponzi. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Oct 3 12:52:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:52:09 +0100 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> On 02/10/10 00:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and > PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the > board? I'd give up and find another. But if I REALLY had to clean something like that up, I'd probably start with sodium hypochlorite bleach. Failing that I'd grab a couple of packs of sodium hydroxide photoresist developer and try soaking the board in that. If all else fails? File it under B-1N. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 3 14:13:56 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 15:13:56 -0400 Subject: anyone coming up through MD towards (or to, or beyond) MA sometime this year ? In-Reply-To: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> References: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4CA8D5F4.7050705@verizon.net> On 10/02/2010 08:37 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Have a BA23 pedestal enclosure I'd like to get from Rockville MD > area.... and > the local UPS store down there wan'ts $60ish for packing > materials/packing charge > (the $30+ to ship). > > So, thought I'd see if anyone was making a run through that area up > this way per > chance. Probably not, but thought I'd check anyway. > > Let me know if you are. > > Thanks, > > -- Curt > > An if someone gets into the boton area I have a BA23 and a BA123 with microvax boards. Almost complete and with drive sheds and TK50s. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:03:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:03:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA75AF8.5050802@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Oct 2, 10 11:16:56 am Message-ID: > I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO Not a microwave oven, but for washing machines : Old washing machine ran for 40 years. In that time it needed one repair to its electromechancal timer, something which involved me cutting about 1" of brass strip and screwing it in place. Of course in those 40 years it's needed new hosesm seals, etc, but I am only considering the timer... New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. Now which do you think I prefer? > unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge > supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The Our new ovens do have electronic timers, but the thermostat is still the good old bulb + bellows type. And it's fairly obvious how to bypass the timer if it fails so you can still cook manually (which is all we ever so anyway). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:05:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:05:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cats, again... In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 2, 10 06:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > Have you played the card game called "Chez Geek"? If you have, and you Err, no. I've got quite enough things to occupy my time, anyway, who would I play it with... > didn't know it before, you would have learned that cats are an > essential companion to any geek who is really serious about his or her > geekhood. I see.I will admit they do make wonderful companions, even if you do nearly tirp over them when carrying CRTs, etc :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:12:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:12:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 3, 10 02:21:47 am Message-ID: > > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to > > get > > them the hardware they desire. > > BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi wants to > sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP Buy a second keyboard and a 2-way switch. Use whichever keyboard that cat is not sleeping on (and be warned, it will not be consistent, hence the 2-way switch so you can select either keyboard). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:14:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI calculator battery packs cont'd In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Oct 2, 10 10:13:20 pm Message-ID: > > I just found another great site in Germany: > http://www.stschmid.de/calculators/ > in which he redesigned the dc-dc converter board inside the BP-8 > with surface-mount components, and even sells them... for $25 plus > $12 postage :( To be fari, I don't think that's very expensive for what must be a small-volume product. I've done a fair numner of 1-off designs, and gave up trying to sell them when I realised what a fair price would be... > > Guess I'll be using 9V batteries, or perhaps tuck a rechargeable > one (which is really only 8.4 volts) inside the plastic case with > a suitable diode and resistor for charging from the wall-wart. Or you could redesign the DC-DC converter. It can't be that complicated. Perhaps one of thestep-up swithcing regulator ICs (Maxim?) would be a starting point/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:28:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:28:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 3, 10 03:54:18 pm Message-ID: > > Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that > > uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I > > think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted > > that one out yet. Actually, I bouight a PS/2 mouse a few days ago. It's now a very dead PS/2 mouse. I will explain the reasons in another message... > *Thinks* Wouldn't an upgraded Archimedes, or some other recent RISC OS > machine such as an Iyonix, be a better tool for accessing the Internet > than a PC-AT with a 486? Maybe. I nver really got into RISC OS. The few times I've used it, I didn't really care for it. And I really like having the source code for everything I depend on (which is the case with this PC, I have the BIOS source in the TechRef and of course linux comes with source). I have had to fix things in the past... > Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS on > a few PCs with mice but no GUI. > > Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:36:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 3, 10 03:57:53 pm Message-ID: > >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > > > > Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be > > econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for > > repairers. > > You're right, however, it's a /fait accompli/. I have fetched It may well be a fait acompli, but that doens't make it a Good Thing necessarily... > entirely-working reasonable-spec PCs out of skips before now. Thrown > because they were too slow & the owners too lazy and stupid to find a > way to give them to charity or recycle them. I wonder why I never fidn useful bits like this... > > >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > > > Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > > > > Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple > > tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least > > makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really > > annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern > > window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and > > over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. > > Concur, personally and for myself, but programming is a lost cause now. > > User computers are trending towards being very simple Web access > devices with limited customisability and extensibility and that is > what most people want. The same way they want a simple, reliable car > that needs little maintenance and don't give a hoot if they can't > perform that maintenance themselves. In other words, most people do not really want a computer. They want something to borwse the web, store their digital photos on, download from iTunes to their iPod (or whatever you do these days), and so on. Problem is, I do want a computer. A machine that I can program to do things for me I don't want to sit and do the same job times by hand. That's what perl is for ;-). The problems I have generally require programming. Which is why, I guess, PC shops ahve absolutely no iterest for me... > That is a good point, but there are heatpipes and other ways of moving > heat over relatively short distances, no? Not good enough? I am > genuinely curious here... I susepct the problms are then mechancial. Getting the heatpipes where you want them with the CPU, grpahics processor, RAM, etc where they have to be, A fan amy well be tge simplest and best solution. Problem is, the fans you find in consumer PCs are horrible. I've had enoguh of them cross my bench. I also remember real fans that are sill running and still quiet afet over 25 years. Of cource those have decent bearings and probably cost ratehr more when they were new. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 14:21:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:21:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution Message-ID: Some days ago I was asking about a source for an IS50 OPIC optical sensor used in the shaft encoder of my Olivetti Sparkjet printer. And it appears this device is unobtainium In an earlier message tonigth I mentioned I had recently bought a cheap PS/2 mouse, and that it is now very dead. These 2 events are connected... The reason I boguth a cheap mouse is that it was optomechancial, rather than optical. And the reason it was PS/2 is that that was the cheapest one I could find. The salesdroid in Maplin thought I was craxy when I daid I didn't care what the interface was. On the other hamd, trying to ecplain classic computing to him was going to take too long, so I simply said that PS/2 was what I wanted... And of coruse the reason I wanted an optomechancial mouse is that it contains a pair of dual phototranssitor sensors to sense the motion of the encoder wheels. Of ocurse I took the mouse apart. It was very cheaply made, with the slotted disks and spindles moulded in one piece, then clipped into 'bearings' moudlded in the base of the mouse. Ouch. But I didn't care about that. I soon desoldered the sensorts which appear to be dual phototransistors with a common collector connection. And the pitch of the slots in the mouse's encoder disks was very close to that in the disk in my Sparkjet printer. Next job was to carefully remove and dismantle the encoder in the Sparkjet. I desoldered the OPIC, which shed a couple of pins in the process, but I cared more about the PCB. I also removed the dual resistor assockated with the OPIC> I then fitted one of the mouse sensors in place of it, common collector to the +5V tack. And with a little cut and muper, I routed the 2 emitter connections to pads that had held the dual resistor. I carefully ressembled the sensor and fitted 10k resisotrs in placeof the dual resistor assembly. That would do as an emitter load for testing. Turning the spindle produced a change in voltage, but it was close to +5V all the time. Dropping the resistors would help, in the end I foudn that 470 ohms (yes, that low) was ideal. I added a 74LS14 schmitt trigger IC on a bit of stripboard to clean up the signals, conneted the outputs to the pins on the connector to the printer's main board and gave it a try. Using the logicDart I could get a display of the wavefortms, and by adjusting the encoder PCB position I got a pretty good pair of quadrature signals. Doing the self-test on the printer got the carriage jiggling about is it should do (the printer was dismantled so that there was no platten, HV generartor, carriage rails, stc, so I couldn't see if it was preinting anything, but I coudlsee the montion of the carriage drive). Alas evey so often it would miscount and the carriage would jump in position. Much gabbing of signals with the LogicDart later, I spotted the odd glitch in one of the output waveforms. No idea what was causing it, but a 1nF camacitor in parallel with the 470R resistor on each phototransitor cleared it up. And cleaered up the posiiton problem Now 'all' I have to do is align the carriage rails properly. Iv'e refitted the rest of the printer mechansim, and it does print, but it fades out after few lines, to recover only wne I clean the end of the ink cartridge. I suspect the spark is flying in slightly the wrong direction and putting carbon ('ink') on the end of the cartridge, causing HV leakage. So, the replacement for the IS501 consisted of the sensor from a cheap mouse and a 74LS14, a couple of R's and a couple of C's from my junk box... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 15:03:36 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:03:36 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au Message-ID: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to why this will still not boot? Thanks Rob aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at 0xfffffc0013d70000 aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments ro root=/d ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) (waldi at de bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) #1 Sat Jan 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from SRM [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. Total pag es: 40679 [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 524288 bytes) [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 262144 bytes) [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security Framework initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized [4194003.650520] Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] Initializing cgroup subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices [4194003.877082] net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: passed tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o read test [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test [4194004.199348] pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd available) [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of SRM state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000-0x00000000091fffff [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP route cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 bytes) [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, 262144 byt es) [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 bytes) [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind 16384) [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... it is [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] VFS: Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 loaded (major 253) [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io scheduler anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline registered [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) [4194006.918097] isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g enabled [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) [4194008.275518] Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI subsystem initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI bus 1, dev 9 [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS [4194012.454227] scsi0 : QLogic QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type methods [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W 6415 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, Wide, Tagg ed queuing: depth 31 /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 MB) [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.223755] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, s upports DPO and FUA [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 MB) [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.482544] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, s upports DPO and FUA [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Attached SCSI disk /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' Special files require major and minor device numbers. Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! : missing operand after `b' Special files require major and minor device numbers. Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem as the ro ot: Success From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Oct 3 08:49:45 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:49:45 +1100 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob, > I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. > I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be > unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I > can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to > be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a > particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. Going from very rusty memory, I recall 433au used PC133 memory. I recall moving memory from a PC into one years ago and being more than happy that it worked. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 3 15:10:02 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:10:02 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010031610.03096.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS > > on a few PCs with mice but no GUI. > > > > Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. > > I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... Look at "GPM." It's been available for Linux "forever" (at least since the days of 2.0.x kernel-based distributions), and lets you use a mouse to copy/paste on a Linux text console. I haven't tried, but suspect it would work with an MDA just fine, because it uses the Linux console abstraction layer.. http://freshmeat.net/projects/gpm/ You should be able to use it with an PC "serial mouse" or "bus mouse" on your hacked-up PC/AT. (I'm sure you at least have some serial ports on the box even if you don't have a free ISA slot to shove a bus mouse card into. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 3 15:11:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 13:11:06 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2010 at 18:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Failing that I'd grab a couple of packs of sodium hydroxide > photoresist developer and try soaking the board in that. i.e. Lye = aerosol oven cleaner. Much easier to use than the "Red Devil" pelletized product available in US grocery stores. Just keep it away from aluminum, zinc and magnesium. I've also used the stuff to remove greasy smoke damage. You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 3 15:15:58 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:15:58 -0400 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p > on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the > original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new > instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is > the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message > about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working > system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > any insight as to why this will still not boot? The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the first disk (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 16:24:55 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:24:55 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a disk at DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to make way for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian on. So when the machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on DKA200. Now I have the temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" Debian on DKA200. I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which won't be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back in so I have DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > > installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > > power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > > install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on > > the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original > > Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance > > of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output > > on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the > > driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am > > not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to > > why this will still not boot? > > The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the first disk > (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? > > Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 16:59:56 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:59:56 -0300 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1aaf01cb6348$36e0ac00$0600000a@portajara> > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... UGH! :oO From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 3 19:37:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA921B9.1080505@neurotica.com> On 10/3/10 4:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... That's...disturbing. I'm having a hard time coming up with a more unusual set of circumstances, or course of action to deal with said circumstances. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 21:21:56 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 22:21:56 -0400 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CA93A44.5090007@gmail.com> Huw Davies wrote: > Rob, > >> I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. >> I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be >> unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I >> can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to >> be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a >> particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. > > Going from very rusty memory, I recall 433au used PC133 memory. I recall moving memory from a PC into one years ago and being more than happy that it worked. I thought it was PC66. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 3 22:25:12 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:25:12 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) Message-ID: Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >> as a good transition. > > TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the > HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less > convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand > further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near > keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the > desk) when you are doing the pointing. Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo and the battery lasts a day of use. And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold about three million devices in its first month or so. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 22:52:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 23:52:47 -0400 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > But the iPad? ?Yuppie status symbol. ?Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. ?Dead end. Can we quote you on this in a few years? The concept of the tablet computer is pretty ancient, and their have been quite a few not-so-great attempts over the past 20 years, but it seems like the iPad is the first one that is actually working well and useful. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 3 23:16:10 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:16:10 -0400 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> I have an iPad. I like the 3G built in and to be able to tap the internet and internet-connected apps from it. However, the formfactor is a little too large and it gets to be annoying to hold at times, I would actually like something perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 its size. The onscreen keyboard is okay, but is BEGGING for arrow keys as the tap and click method is a potluck shot each and every time. It has no flash support which is a MAJOR disappointment beyond belief. Lack of standard ports like a USB port and the ability to load/unload data to/from it to some form of storage accessible space is a glaring issue. Its a nice piece of technology, but I rate it a "B" overall because while thin and innovative, it is too proprietary and too closed. I am looking very closely at the upcoming Playbook by Research in Motion myself and it is turns out to be a good solid device, the iPad will be headed to Ebay. Curt Ian King wrote: > Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. > > Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) > > But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution > > On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >>> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >>> as a good transition. >>> >> TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the >> HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less >> convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand >> further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near >> keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the >> desk) when you are doing the pointing. >> > > Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) > > The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. > It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, > it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, > no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no > removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. > > It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It > sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it > with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo > and the battery lasts a day of use. > > And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold > about three million devices in its first month or so. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Oct 3 23:30:52 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did this, etc. On the other hand, I pretty much know what this says about Microsoft... Of course I do like Linux, mostly because it is where Unix applications have pretty much evolved (and I run Unix on a couple of boxes as well), but while Linux has more or less succeeded in sustaining itself as the third runner in a three party system (where even the government has only really been able to maintain a two party system), the number of applications which just aren't available for Linux prohibits it's sole use. For this same reason, I run a virtual engine on the mac so that I can (and regularly do) run Mac OS X, Windows XP, and Ubuntu Linux, each for it's own set of features. They coexist quite nicely and I'm a happy camper, except when I want to do one of those things on one of my Apple products which someone has decided should not be allowed, or isn't worth the additional effort... sigh! --tom On 10/3/10 11:16 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have an iPad. I like the 3G built in and to be able to tap the internet and internet-connected > apps from it. However, the formfactor is a little too large and it gets to be annoying to hold at > times, I would actually like something perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 its size. The onscreen keyboard is > okay, but is BEGGING for arrow keys as the tap and click method is a potluck shot each and every time. > > It has no flash support which is a MAJOR disappointment beyond belief. Lack of standard ports > like a USB port and the ability to load/unload data to/from it to some form of storage accessible > space is a glaring issue. > > Its a nice piece of technology, but I rate it a "B" overall because while thin and innovative, it is > too proprietary and too closed. > > I am looking very closely at the upcoming Playbook by Research in Motion myself and it is turns out > to be a good solid device, the iPad will be headed to Ebay. > > > Curt > > > > Ian King wrote: >> Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in >> any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful >> step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without >> peer. That's not a compliment. >> Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" >> Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I >> bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk >> about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not >> anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and >> will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with >> the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information >> technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this >> market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) >> But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak >> personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian ________________________________________ >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven >> [lproven at gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution >> >> On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >>>> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >>>> as a good transition. >>>> >>> TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the >>> HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less >>> convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand >>> further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near >>> keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the >>> desk) when you are doing the pointing. >>> >> >> Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) >> >> The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. >> It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, >> it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, >> no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no >> removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. >> >> It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It >> sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it >> with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo >> and the battery lasts a day of use. >> >> And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold >> about three million devices in its first month or so. >> >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com >> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 >> AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 >> >> >> > > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Oct 3 17:38:18 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 17:38:18 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA905DA.4020306@tx.rr.com> On 10/3/2010 1:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO > > Not a microwave oven, but for washing machines : > > Old washing machine ran for 40 years. In that time it needed one repair > to its electromechancal timer, something which involved me cutting about > 1" of brass strip and screwing it in place. Of course in those 40 years > it's needed new hosesm seals, etc, but I am only considering the timer... Been there, done that, though it has been quite a few years. I would still be glad to fix things that way if possible. > > New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module > failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring > diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove > the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. > Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. I had exactly the same thing happen. By that I mean I had clothes washer board/s fail after only about 5 years. I kept the bad boards but have not yet tried to delve into exactly what is wrong with them. When the washer needs replacing I'd love to get one with a simple electromechanical timer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible any more. The guy at the Fixit Shop where I usually buy my appliance parts did not think so when I mentioned that idea the last time I was in there. This crazy washer we have now has two motors: a pump motor which runs at line frequency, but the main mechanism drive motor is PWM'ed at varying frequencies up to I think a few KHz. Who needs it? Not me! Washing clothes is not rocket science! > > Now which do you think I prefer? > >> unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge >> supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The > > Our new ovens do have electronic timers, but the thermostat is still the good > old bulb + bellows type. And it's fairly obvious how to bypass the timer > if it fails so you can still cook manually (which is all we ever so anyway). > Yeah, us too, as far as manually cooking goes. But so much of the control stuff is electronic I don't think it would be very easy to circumvent. At best, it would probably look pretty bad I think. I should probably really get serious about a whole house surge suppressor, though I realize that still does not remove 100% of the vulnerability. Later, Charlie C. > -tony > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 04:05:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 05:05:35 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA998DF.2060901@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... *Some* versions can. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 07:42:26 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 07:42:26 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Tom Uban wrote: > As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while > I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple > products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really > great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did > this, etc. They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 08:10:17 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 08:10:17 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: >> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >> this, etc. > > They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 4 08:55:56 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 08:55:56 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> On 10/4/10 8:10 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Tom Uban wrote: >>> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >>> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >>> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >>> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >>> this, etc. >> >> They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... > > Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. > > I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different task s in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. > > > > No, saying that I use products from the company that I'm criticizing means that I am not simply joining a bandwagon without experience. I was not "bashing" anybody for their choice, I was simply making my opinion known and primarily saying that I think that Apple could make their products, which are already pretty good, better. Clearly I implied that the choice is dependent on the user/use when I indicated that I use several. I think that I can quantify some amount of better by the fact that my mac, running three different operating systems has only frozen once on me whereas my PC running Windows has blue screened many times. Of course everyone's mileage varies depending on their use and application sets. Since when is posting ones experiences and views "flawed and intellectually dishonest"? Instead of tying your personal attacks to my comments, saying that I can and cannot do this or that, please start your own fresh comment on the topic... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 09:20:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 07:20:11 -0700 Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > Much gabbing of signals with the LogicDart later, I spotted the odd > glitch in one of the output waveforms. No idea what was causing it, but a > 1nF camacitor in parallel with the 470R resistor on each phototransitor > cleared it up. And cleaered up the posiiton problem > > Now 'all' I have to do is align the carriage rails properly. Iv'e > refitted the rest of the printer mechansim, and it does print, but it > fades out after few lines, to recover only wne I clean the end of the > ink cartridge. I suspect the spark is flying in slightly the wrong > direction and putting carbon ('ink') on the end of the cartridge, causing > HV leakage. > > So, the replacement for the IS501 consisted of the sensor from a cheap > mouse and a 74LS14, a couple of R's and a couple of C's from my junk box... > > -tony > Hi Tony Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. I've seen these used as input in mice before. I don't know why no one ever ran a simulation or even looked at an oscilloscope output of the mouse. One should be using a comparitor with a small amount of hysteresis. The LS14s have such large hysteresis that they eat up almost all of the phase margine. I guess it was done by an engineer that looked at the original design and said "if I replace the compaitor with a LS14, I can remove the feedback resistors and save a few fractions of a penny". Dwight From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 10:32:44 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:32:44 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> On Oct 4, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > On 10/4/10 8:10 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> >> On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> Tom Uban wrote: >>>> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >>>> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >>>> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >>>> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >>>> this, etc. >>> >>> They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... >> >> Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. >> >> I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. > > No, saying that I use products from the company that I'm criticizing means that I am not simply > joining a bandwagon without experience. I was not "bashing" anybody for their choice, I was simply > making my opinion known and primarily saying that I think that Apple could make their products, > which are already pretty good, better. > > Clearly I implied that the choice is dependent on the user/use when I indicated that I use several. > > I think that I can quantify some amount of better by the fact that my mac, running three different > operating systems has only frozen once on me whereas my PC running Windows has blue screened many > times. Of course everyone's mileage varies depending on their use and application sets. > > Since when is posting ones experiences and views "flawed and intellectually dishonest"? > > Instead of tying your personal attacks to my comments, saying that I can and cannot do this or > that, please start your own fresh comment on the topic... Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it can't be done. One of them is a desperate last-ditch-resort port of OpenStep with "Save Apple at any cost!" as its only goal, and the other is an overgrown DOS shell swimming in an ocean full of sharks wearing a large weight made from decades of legacy code chained to its neck. Sure your Mac doesn't crash as often, but how often can you go to Wal-Mart and run the latest game on the shelf? How often can you open the complex VBA-macro-infested Excel spreadsheet your co-worker emails you, edit it, and send it back without garbaging it? What about throwing together an emergency machine for $500 using parts from the local PC junk shop? There's a multitude of things out there that only work on Windows, and if you have to trade off on reliability to achieve compatibility, then that's what you have to do. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Personally my view is that everything sucks in its own special way, and there is always room for improvement. My "improvement" may not be better for everyone else. Some things really bother me but not everyone else. I'd love it if the Apple Mail reply default was not top-posting, but everyone else in the office is too lazy to scroll to the bottom of a message for the new parts. How about fixing the bug where the wrong app gets focus when you switch Spaces? I think that irritates just about everyone who experiences it. There's always no shortage of issues to fix in any system. Apple is not unique in this regard. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 4 10:38:39 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <588353.60083.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I admit I bought a MacBook (two actually) for a couple reasons over a Wintel laptop, not the least of which was the aesthetic consideration. There is no doubt they are better looking IMO, and they have a nice uncluttered design. I don't need a zillion different interfaces in/out of the thing. Seems like every wintel laptop manufacturer out there wants to plaster a bunch of different connectors all over the laptop for every conceivable interface type. These days, USB is all I need. I think one thing that Apple really has an advantage over the competition is their power brick design. Not only is it incredibly small, it has that snazzy magsafe power connector, which has saved my laptop untold damage (and that's after having owned an HP which I had to replace the power jack on). The other big reason was OS X itself. I wanted to play with it, and it had the advantage of having Xcode included with the OS, the dev tools for Windows costs a lot (yeah yeah, Vis C++ Free Edition). I have been very happy with how turnkey the OS is while still feeling professional, Time Machine is awesome, and upgrading a hard disk (thanks to Time Machine) was very, very easy. I think the 5-10% of things that I don't like about my MacBook (namely some case weaknesses) have been addressed in the subsequent designs. Does everything I need it to do. Is it the end all, be all? Nope, but I still really like it a lot. YMMV. ________________________________ From: Daniel Seagraves To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 8:10:17 AM Subject: Re: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: >> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their >>inception. And while >> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my >>experience with Apple >> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the >>potential for being really >> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if >>this application did >> this, etc. > > They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we >know your needs better than you do"... Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 4 11:05:40 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:05:40 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA9FB54.3060105@vaxen.net> Ian King wrote: > Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. > But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian I must respectfully disagree. As an Apple fan-boy I don't own and don't really plan to own an iPad, but it has literally "defined" a new generation of computing/communication devices. There are already a half-dozen slapped-up "aPad" products coming out of China. Tablets suspiciously like the iPad running Android. There are a staggering number of aPads in development that will probably actually be quality products. I've seen several PC companies introduce tablets or laptops that convert to tablets over the years, and none of them sold many pieces or influenced the market at all, really. I think that no matter what you think of the iPad itself, you'd have to admit that it IS a defining milestone in personal hardware. Doc From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 12:26:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:26:59 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves > > Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is > absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple > years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my > intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy-handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world-domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're > desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it > can't be done. I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple-basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, too".) Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its capabilities. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 4 12:42:33 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> On 10/4/10 12:26 PM, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves >> >> Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is >> absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple >> years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my >> intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. >> > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy-handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world-domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > >> Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're >> desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it >> can't be done. > > I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple-basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, too".) > > Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its capabilities. > > > Thank you for also following up Ian, I agree with what you are saying here and have also considered an iPad a couple of times now but have backed away for similar reasons. Unfortunately I don't have enough time in my days at this point to track all of the available options and so if you could direct me to something informative about this "Android tablet" you have mentioned, I would appreciate it... Note that in my case, I do like the larger size as my eye now require cheaters to read super small print and some the applications for which I would like to use the device may simply require more real estate. Are there various size options for the Android tablets? --tnx --tom From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 12:59:42 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:59:42 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Uban [mailto:uban at ubanproductions.com] > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:43 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Ian King > Subject: Re: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill > the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) > > On 10/4/10 12:26 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves > >> > >> Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is > >> absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple > >> years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my > >> intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot > directly. > >> > > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL > original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary > point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot > of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy- > handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it > will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world- > domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so > awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > > > >> Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're > >> desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and > it > >> can't be done. > > > > I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the > responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple- > basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than > I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to > stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By > comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types > of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, > and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits > in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, > too".) > > > > Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let > "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the > iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of > the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the > iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its > capabilities. > > > > > > > > Thank you for also following up Ian, I agree with what you are saying > here and have > also considered an iPad a couple of times now but have backed away for > similar reasons. > Unfortunately I don't have enough time in my days at this point to > track all of the > available options and so if you could direct me to something > informative about this > "Android tablet" you have mentioned, I would appreciate it... Note that > in my case, I > do like the larger size as my eye now require cheaters to read super > small print and > some the applications for which I would like to use the device may > simply require more > real estate. Are there various size options for the Android tablets? > These things are coming out of the woodwork these days - you can't swing a dead Newton :-) without hitting another vendor. Mine was purchased from an online vendor called Merimobiles, and is the "iRobot aPad E7001" with a dual-core Chinese RockChip processor. There's an E7002 now, from what I've seen, with a bit more speed. But the site slatedroid.com gives both information and opinion on a slew of new devices that fall between Ereaders-on-megavitamins and small-footprint netbooks, including somewhere in the middle tablets such as mine. Some devices are being sold through department stores - I even saw a mall kiosk a couple of weeks ago. I too have "mature eyes" and use reading glasses. I've seen these devices from 5" (ISTR there's a Dell device) and up to 10" or so. I elected to go with the 7" form factor for convenience: it fits in my hand, it fits in the glove boxes of either my truck or my motorcycle, it slips into the bag that carries the laptop (Windows 7) that I use for work. Yes, I thought about the larger devices, but frankly that was one reason I stopped consistently using my Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC: it didn't fit into a saddlebag. I'm not saying that my aPad is without flaw - it has its 'early adopter' warts. (Many of these are addressed by new flash images built by people in the user community - ah, open platforms are handy, aren't they?) But it's also $150. It has an externally-accessible microSD slot, a USB port that works in either direction (access a keyboard, memory stick, etc. OR serve up USB mass storage), a multitasking operating system - and did I mention it was $150? -- Ian From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 4 13:08:33 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... Message-ID: Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come with a terminal. While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? Thanks; - JP From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 13:45:29 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:45:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2010, at 1:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be > willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? > I haven't touched one in years, but I worked with one before. I might be able to help get it fired up. Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 13:49:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 14:49:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> On 10/4/10 2:45 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. Oooh, THAT definitely needs to get scanned! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 13:51:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 14:51:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAA2220.20808@neurotica.com> On 10/4/10 2:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful > thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the > space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come > with a terminal. I have two 5250s on my System/36 (5360), but I don't really want to part with either of them. I might be willing to work out a long-term loan, though, if you strike out elsewhere. Please keep me posted as to your progress; this family of IBM machines strongly piques my curiosity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:27:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:27:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA905DA.4020306@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Oct 3, 10 05:38:18 pm Message-ID: > > New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module > > failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring > > diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove > > the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. > > Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. > I had exactly the same thing happen. By that I mean I had clothes > washer board/s fail after only about 5 years. I kept the bad boards but > have not yet tried to delve into exactly what is wrong with them. When I did a lot of tests on the old board before I ordere a replacement (of course). The circuitry is all directly connected ot the power line, and my bench isolating transformer is not large enough to run a washing machine, so I was somewhat limited in the test equipment I could use, but I proved it was the mcirocotnroller, als... > the washer needs replacing I'd love to get one with a simple > electromechanical timer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible I don;t think you can get them either. Even ones that seem to have a mechancial timer don't. Oh, they have a knob that goes round as the cycle progresses and which has cams to operate switches, but the motor that drives it is controlled by a microprocessor. Foo!. > any more. The guy at the Fixit Shop where I usually buy my appliance > parts did not think so when I mentioned that idea the last time I was in > there. This crazy washer we have now has two motors: a pump motor which > runs at line frequency, but the main mechanism drive motor is PWM'ed at > varying frequencies up to I think a few KHz. Who needs it? Not me! > Washing clothes is not rocket science! Indeed... Old washing machine has one main motor. It's a capacitor start indcution motor with a centrifugal switch to cut out the starting winding when it's up to speed (and a feedback wire from the switch to the timer so the thing only carries on when the motor is up to speed). The pump is on the front of that motor, direct drive. There's a 2-speed gearbox on the back to get the faster speed for spin drying, and a solenoid to select the gear ration. Nice and simple. The new washing machine has a shaded-pole motor for the pump (only). The drive motor is a brush-type DC motor. It has 7 wires coming out of it -- 2 to the burshes, 3 to the (tapped) field and 2 from a tachogenerator. The motor control PCB has relays to select the field tap (fast or slow speed range), swap ove the bush connections (reverse the motor) and motor enable. And a triac for fine speed control. There's a custom microcontroller that takes a bit-serial command from the timer microprocesosr (alas details of the cammands are not on the wiring diagrams or parts lists), takes feedback fro mthe tachogenerator, and controls the relays and triac. And you know, I don;t think it gets the clothes any cleaner... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:32:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:32:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 3, 10 01:11:06 pm Message-ID: > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... I suspect it's more pleasant than trying to play a tuba with a dead rat inside. I have images of somebody putting their hand up the bell of a French Horn and feeling something furry or decomposing :-(... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:42:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:42:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 07:20:11 am Message-ID: > Hi Tony > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors, and with the 470R resistors, I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-space ratio, and while not exactly in quadrature, pretty darn close. The only problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses), there would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded, and I couldn't repodcude it by, say, jiggling the encoder disk. But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset things. AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches. A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:15:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:15:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <201010031610.03096.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 3, 10 04:10:02 pm Message-ID: > Look at "GPM." It's been available for Linux "forever" (at least since > the days of 2.0.x kernel-based distributions), and lets you use a mouse Actually, that's not 'forever' enough for my system... > You should be able to use it with an PC "serial mouse" or "bus mouse" on > your hacked-up PC/AT. (I'm sure you at least have some serial ports on > the box even if you don't have a free ISA slot to shove a bus mouse card > into. :) Actually, I am short of serial ports. I have 2, one is used for the printer (Apple LW2NT), the other for either the modem or whatever I want to link to the machine (like my HP handhelds, EPROM programmer, etc). And yes, I am out of ISA slots too... -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 15:48:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:48:33 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? Message-ID: Hey folks, This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. It's a sun4m architecture luggable workstation with an LCD screen. The whole thing fits into a large shoulder bag - large enough it wouldn't be accepted for carryon luggage. It's cute, and it runs (after I replaced the NVRAM chip). When I got it, the machine had been set up with NetBSD, but being the masochistic sort I am I wanted to restore it to its original software. It just so happens I had Solaris 2.6 and gave it a crack. Solaris starts up just fine, but the device won't go into CDE, claiming that it can't find the framebuffer driver. Looking at the firmware, I see that it identifies a device called bwthree. Solaris 2.6 has a driver for bwtwo, but I've been unable to find a bwthree anywhere. (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to believe I want what I typed. Sometimes software is too helpful.) The original documentation for the Voyager describes custom install media - which presumably includes this driver. Does anyone happen to have such a CDROM? Can you confirm for me that there is in fact a driver so named? And if you have a running Voyager, is that what's in your /platform/kernel/drv directory? Otherwise, I guess I could just run NetBSD, but it's just not as fun. :) Thanks - Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 16:59:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:59:39 -0700 Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 07:20:11 am, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > Hi Tony > > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. > > I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors, and with > the 470R resistors, I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-space > ratio, and while not exactly in quadrature, pretty darn close. The only > problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses), there > would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded, and > I couldn't repodcude it by, say, jiggling the encoder disk. > > But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset > things. > > AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or > the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches. > > A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good > to me. > > -tony > Hi Tony It looks good as long as you are going one direction. Try one tick backwards and you'll understand, right after the other input has flipped. You'll get and error count. I won't happen all the time, just when it stops in that small window of the cycle. And, yes, I know a lot of mice use the LS14. I've even tinkered a few into working with them in them. Those that have a LM339 or similar work fine. It should have about 10% or less hysteresis feedback. Most LS14s are in the order of 30% or more. Try the LM339 and resistors. Dwight From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:28:58 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 200+ vintage computers for sale - LaCrosse, WI Message-ID: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am posting this on behalf of Carl - see below: -------------------------------------- Carl W. Thurston writes: I have about 1500 cubic feet of classic computer systems, peripherals, manuals, software, and parts for sale. Nearly every Apple, Atari, Amiga, Compaq, Commodore, to mention a few. Some notable models like: Calcomp Terrac, DEC Rainbow, Kaypro, Osborne 1, IBM PC luggable, Zenith luggable,etc. Lots of NOS parts, service manuals, and Diagnostics. Would like to sell entire collection (was part of a Technology Museum), contact me about particulars or questions. See big list here: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/accession.html Contact: Carl W. Thurston Western Technical College La Crosse, WI 54601 ThurstonC at westerntc.edu -------------------------------------- From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:43:23 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1981 Xitan S-100 system for sale - Norwalk, CA Message-ID: <979701.33579.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am posting this on behalf of Todd - see below: ------------------------------------- I have a Xitan XOR-100, which is an S-100 bus system with 8-inch floppy drives running CP/M. Along with that is a Televideo TVI-950 terminal. I have most of the manuals and other documentation. I also have a non-booting Apple Macintosh SE (10MB internal disk) with a third-party external 20MB SCSI drive. toddlitwin at charter.net ------------------------------------- From chd at chdickman.com Mon Oct 4 18:55:16 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:55:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 2:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful > thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the > space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come > with a terminal. > > I have two 5291 terminals that I would be willing to get rid of. They were used with a System/34 (that I still have). I cannot guarantee that they are functional other than that the CRT comes up with a normal screen. I am in Ohio, 45865. Contact me directly if you are interested and we can negotiate the details. -chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 4 18:56:48 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 Message-ID: I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. I presume these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is accurate on this. How rare is this find? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_(programming_language) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 18:59:43 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:59:43 -0700 Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus > CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume > these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but > instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is > accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. Janus was their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. Mark From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 4 19:03:09 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus >> CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume >> these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but >> instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is >> accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? > > RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. Janus was > their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. > > I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. I found their website just now -- interesting. If anyone associated with a museum wants these disks (I'm looking at you Al Kossow), please let me know and I'll donate them. Otherwise, it goes on ebay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:06:20 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:06:20 -0700 Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:03 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith >> wrote: >>> >>> I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus >>> CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume >>> these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but >>> instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is >>> accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? >> >> RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. ?Janus was >> their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. >> >> I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. > > I found their website just now -- interesting. ?If anyone associated with a > museum wants these disks (I'm looking at you Al Kossow), please let me know > and I'll donate them. ?Otherwise, it goes on ebay. In my mind, the fact that they are for CP/M-86 is what makes them rare. Since RR is still in business, you can still get their software, which is great... but I've never seen Janus for CP/M-86 *anywhere*. :) If I collected CP/M-86 software, I'd want them. Mark From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:08:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 01:08:32 +0100 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 4 October 2010 18:59, Ian King wrote: > These things are coming out of the woodwork these days - you can't swing a dead Newton :-) without hitting another vendor. ?Mine was purchased from an online vendor called Merimobiles, and is the "iRobot aPad E7001" with a dual-core Chinese RockChip processor. ?There's an E7002 now, from what I've seen, with a bit more speed. ?But the site slatedroid.com gives both information and opinion on a slew of new devices that fall between Ereaders-on-megavitamins and small-footprint netbooks, including somewhere in the middle tablets such as mine. ?Some devices are being sold through department stores - I even saw a mall kiosk a couple of weeks ago. > > I too have "mature eyes" and use reading glasses. ?I've seen these devices from 5" (ISTR there's a Dell device) and up to 10" or so. ?I elected to go with the 7" form factor for convenience: it fits in my hand, it fits in the glove boxes of either my truck or my motorcycle, it slips into the bag that carries the laptop (Windows 7) that I use for work. ?Yes, I thought about the larger devices, but frankly that was one reason I stopped consistently using my Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC: it didn't fit into a saddlebag. > > I'm not saying that my aPad is without flaw - it has its 'early adopter' warts. ?(Many of these are addressed by new flash images built by people in the user community - ah, open platforms are handy, aren't they?) ?But it's also $150. ?It has an externally-accessible microSD slot, a USB port that works in either direction (access a keyboard, memory stick, etc. OR serve up USB mass storage), a multitasking operating system - and did I mention it was $150? ?-- Ian Glad you came back & followed up on this. I'm with doc at vaxen.net on this. Defining a category does /not/ by any means denote that a device is the best in its category. I've spent a few hours playing with iPads & whereas I think they're brilliant devices, I don't want one, any more than I want an iPhone. (And yes, I like Apple kit & own a fair bit of it.) They're just too closed for me. I wouldn't want it any smaller, myself, nor any slower, but I /would/ want a couple of USB ports, a card slot (or 2 or 3, given the size of the device), and a rather more open OS. I would add multitasking but I believe the iPad is getting that very soon, so it seems a tad unfair. But the UI of the iPhone and the iPad is a work of art. It's something qualitatively different from mouse-oriented WIMPs: it's a GUI, but of the WIMP acronym, there are no W, M or P, only I, and those are as much buttons anyway. The iPhone introduced the GUI and showed that a company completely new to the mobile-phone sector could produce a device massively better than all the best efforts of every mobile phone company ever. OK, so, in many ways, it's constrained, but it's still brilliant. But the iPhone was a bit too small to be a general-purpose computing device. The iPad takes the idea and runs with it. Me, I'd be much more inclined to an Android - or perhaps better still, Palm/HP WebOS - clone with a bit more expandability and a lot more openness. But TBH, for my purposes, I foresee sticking to laptops. Not even netbooks, but real laptops. I tend to buy ultralight "executive" models that are 2-3 years old and so as cheap as netbooks, but with 2-4x the power and capacity. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:33:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 01:33:50 +0100 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 October 2010 21:48, Ian King wrote: > (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to believe I want what I typed. ?Sometimes software is too helpful.) Try putting it in quotes. Seems to work for me. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 20:11:08 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <371448.78528.qm@web110405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I may be able to help although my background was from an application standpoint:? RPG II, Cobol, WSU,OCL, DFU,Query, etc. Russ --- On Mon, 10/4/10, JP Hindin wrote: From: JP Hindin Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 2:08 PM Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come with a terminal. While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? Thanks; - JP From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Oct 4 21:18:47 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:18:47 -0500 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4CAA8B07.9090308@brutman.com> Well, it turned out to be far easier to generate fragments than it was to debug them. I had the perfect TCP/IP stack that didn't try any fancy tricks to probe the MTU size all along - my own! An instance of DOSBox with routing properly setup to go through the Linux box did the trick. I ran netcat on both sides, and soon was awash in fragments. Then came the part I hate about DOS programming - memory corruption and crashes. I really hate it when I can't find the bug that causes the problem; I'm really paranoid about that kind of thing because once a little entropy creeps into the system, it's hard to remove. Eventually I figured out my bugs and it's been happily reassembling packets under all sorts of stressful conditions for the last few hours. Mike From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Oct 4 21:31:55 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:31:55 -0500 Subject: Tandy DeskMate floppies Message-ID: I uncovered some "vintage" Tandy DeskMate software on five 3.5" floppies. Labeled (Radio Shack?) Catalog No. 25-3551, (C) 1984, 1990. Anyone want them for $5.00 plus Media Mail postage from 65775... please contact me offlist. thanks. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Oct 4 21:48:56 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:48:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP LaserJet part Message-ID: I now have a HP LaserJet IIp Plus printer, (initially free, and I got it working at a cost about equal to buying a good used one, but that's another story)... anyhow, I am trying to find the "Optional Lower Cassette" that holds 250 sheets of paper and fits underneath the printer (instead of feeding them 20-30 at a time through the front door). No luck in the usual places. Does anyone have a "parts" IIp from which I can buy the cassette & paper tray? thanks Charles From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 4 22:33:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 20:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Oct 4, 10 01:48:33 pm" Message-ID: <201010050333.o953Xuxm016310@floodgap.com> > This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a > Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. Jealousy. "All" I have is a Solbourne S3000 (though mine has OS/MP on the drive and is in fully working order). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Prostitutes Appeal to Pope ---------------------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:53:15 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 00:53:15 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP LaserJet part References: Message-ID: <08fe01cb6441$cb611460$aa0359bb@portajara> >Does anyone have a "parts" IIp from which I can buy the cassette & >paper tray? Can't you use something rarer? e.g.: An original Apple I? :o) From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 5 01:01:30 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 07:01:30 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> Hi Dave Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 04 October 2010 19:49 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... On 10/4/10 2:45 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. Oooh, THAT definitely needs to get scanned! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Tue Oct 5 01:10:12 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:10:12 +0200 Subject: 200+ vintage computers for sale - LaCrosse, WI In-Reply-To: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually I am searching for spares and complements for one AT&T 3B2/400. I live in Europe but shipment is not a problem, at least in a a first stage. Sergio 2010/10/5 steven stengel > I am posting this on behalf of Carl - see below: > -------------------------------------- > > Carl W. Thurston writes: > I have about 1500 cubic feet of classic computer systems, peripherals, > manuals, software, and parts for sale. > Nearly every Apple, Atari, Amiga, Compaq, Commodore, to mention a few. > > Some notable models like: Calcomp Terrac, DEC Rainbow, Kaypro, Osborne 1, > IBM PC luggable, Zenith luggable,etc. > > Lots of NOS parts, service manuals, and Diagnostics. > Would like to sell entire collection (was part of a Technology Museum), > contact me about particulars or questions. > > See big list here: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/accession.html > > Contact: > Carl W. Thurston > Western Technical College > La Crosse, WI 54601 > ThurstonC at westerntc.edu > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 5 01:40:12 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:40:12 +0200 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, Sun4m architecture accepts Solaris 7 & 8. Regards, Ed > Hey folks, > > This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a > Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. It's a sun4m architecture luggable > workstation with an LCD screen. The whole thing fits into a large > shoulder bag - large enough it wouldn't be accepted for carryon luggage. > It's cute, and it runs (after I replaced the NVRAM chip). > > When I got it, the machine had been set up with NetBSD, but being the > masochistic sort I am I wanted to restore it to its original software. It > just so happens I had Solaris 2.6 and gave it a crack. Solaris starts up > just fine, but the device won't go into CDE, claiming that it can't find > the framebuffer driver. > > Looking at the firmware, I see that it identifies a device called bwthree. > Solaris 2.6 has a driver for bwtwo, but I've been unable to find a > bwthree anywhere. (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to > believe I want what I typed. Sometimes software is too helpful.) > > The original documentation for the Voyager describes custom install media > - which presumably includes this driver. Does anyone happen to have such > a CDROM? Can you confirm for me that there is in fact a driver so named? > And if you have a running Voyager, is that what's in your > /platform/kernel/drv directory? > > Otherwise, I guess I could just run NetBSD, but it's just not as fun. :) > Thanks - Ian > > > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 01:45:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 02:45:39 -0400 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CAAC993.3060509@neurotica.com> On 10/5/10 2:40 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Sun4m architecture accepts Solaris 7& 8. Actually, sun4m support was added in Solaris 2.1 and removed in Solaris 2.9 (a.k.a. "Solaris 9"). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 01:46:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 02:46:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> On 10/5/10 2:01 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Yes, that's me. It's still right in the garage where we pulled it off the truck. It has been a very busy few months for me and I've not been able to get to it. I'm crossing my fingers for some time this fall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 5 10:31:16 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:31:16 -0400 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) Message-ID: <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> You might try "init=/bin/sh" to keep any init scripts from running. That way you can piece together what it's trying to do, tracing from /etc/inittab Those errors look like the kernel is up but some init script is unhappy. -brad On Oct 3, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That > particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in > > Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a disk at > DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to make way > for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian on. So when the > machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on DKA200. Now I have the > temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" Debian on DKA200. > > I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which won't > be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back in so I have > DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan >> Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au >> >> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet >>> installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a >>> power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to >>> install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on >>> the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original >>> Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance >>> of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output >>> on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the >>> driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am >>> not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to >>> why this will still not boot? >> >> The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the > first disk >> (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? >> >> Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. >> >> Pat >> -- >> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 5 12:33:01 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 13:33:01 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_?= =?windows-1252?Q?be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy in the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 5 13:06:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:06:18 -0700 Subject: Free LA-100 posting Message-ID: <4CAB06AA.18624.1007FD1@cclist.sydex.com> Fellow is posting an LA100 for shipping on Eric's VCF: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22269-FREE-DEC- LA100-LetterWriter --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 5 12:56:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:56:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 02:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > > > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > > > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > > > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. > >=20 > > I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors=2C and wit= > h=20 > > the 470R resistors=2C I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-spac= > e=20 > > ratio=2C and while not exactly in quadrature=2C pretty darn close. The on= > ly=20 > > problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses)=2C ther= > e=20 > > would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded=2C a= > nd=20 > > I couldn't repodcude it by=2C say=2C jiggling the encoder disk. > >=20 > > But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset= > =20 > > things.=20 > >=20 > > AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or= > =20 > > the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches.=20 > >=20 > > A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good= > =20 > > to me.=20 > >=20 > > -tony > >=20 > > Hi Tony > It looks good as long as you are going one direction. Try one tick > backwards and you'll understand=2C right after the other input has > flipped. You'll get and error count. I won't happen all the time=2 > just when it stops in that small window of the cycle. Now, let's think about this.. Firstly, the time constant of a 470R resitor and 1nF capacitor is aroundhalf a microsecond. The periods of the quadrature signals are measured in milliseconds. Therefoe, the capacitor has little effect on the timing mark:space ratiom,. etc, of these signals. It just removes very narrow glitches. There is always a potential probklem when you reverse the direction of rotation of aquadrature encoder. The simple scheme for getting a clock and direction signal, shown in an awful lot of books, and used in some lesser devices, has a bug IMHO. Basically, no matter how perfect the signals are, you may end up with the direction signal beign in the wrong state for the first clock pulse. FWIW, the logic in this printer is considerably more complex, and I don't think it sufferes from this problem. Your thoguhts are based on the assumption that the output form the photosensor is sinusoidal. That, I think assumes that the size of the photosenseor is the same as the slit width in the encoder disk. This is the case for some good encoders (the HP ones I've worked with, for example), I don't think it applies here. The output looks more like a poor square wave -- sloping sides and a long flat high or low section. This would suggest that the slit is much larger than the sensor. Given that sort of output waveform, it doesn't really matter where on the edge you take as the threshold, the transistion time is short compared to the period of the waveform. So the hysteresis of the comparator doesn't really make that much difference. > And=2C yes=2C I know a lot of mice use the LS14. I've even tinkered a > few into working with them in them. Those that have a LM339 or I'm harldy and expert on mice, but of the ones I've seen : Modern ones (like the PS/2 mouse I took the dual phototransistor from) just feed the imputs into some microcontroller thing. I have no idea what the input characteristics are, and there's no trivial way to measure them []1]. So no idea what the hysteresis is. [1] One way to do it would be to feed a pair of quadrtature signals into the chip with said chip connected to a host expecting a PS/2 mouse, and adjust the high and low levels of each signal in turn until it just stops working. Rather more work than I want to do for this :-) Older ones, which used chips I can recognise, and for whcih I may even have official schematics/service manuals use some kind of TTL or 4000-series CMOS schmitt trigger chip. I[ve not seen one that doesn't. The '14 in variosu forms is common. Maybe it is a bad design really (althohgh as I said, I think that depends on the outputs of the sensors) but it seems to work well enough. > similar work fine. It should have about 10% or less hysteresis > feedback. Most LS14s are in the order of 30% or more. Try > the LM339 and resistors. _If_ I havr problems, then that's what I'll do. So far it seems to be working fine. I have now alinged the carriage [2] and it prints as well as I'd expect a Sparkjet ot print. In other wods it's legible, but nowhre near letter quality. [2] You need to get the axis of the ink cartirdge level with the top of the paper guide electrode, and a consistent distance from it across the paper. If the cartridge is far too low, it doens't print at all. If it's just to lwo, the ink scatters from f the edge of the guide onto the paper and it looks weird. If its' mucth too high, you get ink depositied o nthe front of the cartridge, and the printing fades out after a frw lines. What I did was make a special tool. A 4mm rod (same diameter ad the glss tube in the ink cartridge) with a point on one end (point on the axis of the rod, obviously).I fitted that into the carriage in place of the cartridge (printer power off and casing removed) and adjusted the position of the carirage rail assembly so that the point was just running among the top of the elecrode, and just touching a sheet of paper fed round the platten. On the second attempt, it printed fine.... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 5 13:35:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:35:06 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> On 10/5/10 10:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ yeah.. and I want a pony I would be REALLY nice to Doron Swade, if I were him. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 13:40:14 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCBiZSBi?= =?utf-8?B?dWlsdCcgLSBwcm9ncmFtbWVyIOKAoiBUaGUgUmVnaXN0ZXI=?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> why? Can't we just simulate it? ________________________________ From: Dave Woyciesjes To: ClassicCMP Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy in the internet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 13:43:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:43:06 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCA=?= =?UTF-8?B?YmUgYnVpbHQnIC0gcHJvZ3JhbW1lciDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> ROFL! You're a bad, bad man. ;) -Dave On 10/5/10 2:40 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > why? Can't we just simulate it? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Woyciesjes > To: ClassicCMP > Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM > Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The > Register > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy in the internet. > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 13:49:17 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:49:17 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? Message-ID: 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap who found me via eBay. The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 13:59:35 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCBiZSBi?= =?utf-8?B?dWlsdCcgLSBwcm9ncmFtbWVyIOKAoiBUaGUgUmVnaXN0ZXI=?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <55276.14808.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> :) ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 1:43:06 PM Subject: Re: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The Register ROFL! You're a bad, bad man. ;) -Dave On 10/5/10 2:40 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > why? Can't we just simulate it? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Woyciesjes > To: ClassicCMP > Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM > Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The > Register > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy in the internet. > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 5 14:05:17 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? References: Message-ID: Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting uncommon thanks to recycling and age. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:49 PM Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap who found me via eBay. The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 14:08:24 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:08:24 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:05, Teo Zenios wrote: > Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE > for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty > useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are > few in the UK? ?Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting > uncommon thanks to recycling and age. I was amazed myself. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 5 14:19:01 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Oct 5, 10 03:05:17 pm" Message-ID: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE > for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty > useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are > few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting > uncommon thanks to recycling and age. I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... I really don't care for the P/Q630, which is right up there with the Power Mac x2x0 series for Macs I hate. In my case, I despise them largely for my long-familiarity-bred contempt and its dire IDE, though Remy Davidson describes them rather more floridly (my mirrored copy since the original has gone to the Wayback Machine in the sky): http://www.floodgap.com/mirrors/worstmacs.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Oct 5 14:20:55 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_?= =?windows-1252?Q?be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ >From the article: > Graham-Cumming goes on to add: >> What a marvel it would be to stand before this giant metal machine, >> powered by a steam engine, and running programs fed to it on a reel of >> punched cards. I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually in Babbage's design? Alexey From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 5 14:24:11 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:24:11 -0500 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> References: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4CAB7B5B.5080707@vaxen.net> On 10/5/10 2:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE >> for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty >> useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are >> few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting >> uncommon thanks to recycling and age. > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... I parsed that as p630 - as in POWER4 - and was about to offer a LOT of help. :) Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 5 14:26:11 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <4CAB7B5B.5080707@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Oct 5, 10 02:24:11 pm" Message-ID: <201010051926.o95JQBUt012008@floodgap.com> > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... > > I parsed that as p630 - as in POWER4 - and was about to offer a LOT > of help. :) No, I would definitely keep every one of those I was offered for free. :-D -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 14:26:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:26:36 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> References: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE >> for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty >> useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are >> few in the UK? ?Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting >> uncommon thanks to recycling and age. > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... > > I really don't care for the P/Q630, which is right up there with the Power > Mac x2x0 series for Macs I hate. In my case, I despise them largely for > my long-familiarity-bred contempt and its dire IDE, though Remy Davidson > describes them rather more floridly (my mirrored copy since the original > has gone to the Wayback Machine in the sky): > > ? ? ? ?http://www.floodgap.com/mirrors/worstmacs.html Wow. I wouldn't have called it a Road Apple, myself... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 5 14:28:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:28:26 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Legendary_steampunk_computer_'should_be_built'_-_programmer_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net>, Message-ID: <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2010 at 19:20, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you > usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually > in Babbage's design? My guess is the same as used on Jacquard looms: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~koster/musicbox/jacquard2.jpg --Chuck From aswood at t-online.de Tue Oct 5 14:48:19 2010 From: aswood at t-online.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 21:48:19 +0200 Subject: TU55 an ebay Message-ID: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Hello, there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've never seen any on ebay before. I'm not associated with the seller. -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 5 14:49:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 13:49:54 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAB8162.9080101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 05/10/2010 1:20 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > >> From the article: >> Graham-Cumming goes on to add: >>> What a marvel it would be to stand before this giant metal machine, >>> powered by a steam engine, and running programs fed to it on a reel >>> of punched cards. > > I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you usually > stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually in Babbage's > design? I belive some sort of type setting device casting type for printing. At that time calculating any kind of large mathematical table,for books was what being thought of back then. > Alexey From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 5 14:50:01 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. > > Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap > who found me via eBay. > > The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for > just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... I would say it depends on if you have software that will only run on such a system. In fact I would consider Mac OS 8.1 to be a drawback for this system. I have software that will only run on System 7.6 or earlier, as System 8 broke it. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:15:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:15:29 -0400 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 10/5/10, Andreas Holz wrote: > Hello, > > there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off of a step-down transformer. > I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've > never seen any on ebay before. I don't recall seeing too many for sale either. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:22:12 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:22:12 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >> 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. >> >> Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap >> who found me via eBay. >> >> The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for >> just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... > > I would say it depends on if you have software that will only run on such a > system. ?In fact I would consider Mac OS 8.1 to be a drawback for this > system. ?I have software that will only run on System 7.6 or earlier, as > System 8 broke it. Hmmm. Interesting. I really liked MacOS 8 myself. Things like the multithreaded Finder and pop-up folders were invaluable, especially for smaller screens; I used them all the time. Things like Internet configuration and setup were much easier, too. And I always found the performance of 8.1 to be pretty good and it was fairly snappy on this machine. I set up my Classic II a few years back with both 7.6.1 (as that was the latest it would run) and 6.0.8, as an exercise, after reading various websites extolling System 6 as being leaner, meaner and faster. Well, it was an epic job to find all the niceties to make System 6 feel like an even slightly grown-up OS: a menubar clock, a hierarchical Apple menu, a network client, TCP/IP stack, screensaver, Windowshade (essential on a 9" screen) and so on. By the time I had it all installed, it was just as slow as 7.6.1 and took about the same amount of RAM - which is significant on a machine with a max memory ceiling of 10MB. In the end I used System 7 almost all the time; if nothing else, when so short of RAM, reasonable working VM helped. Also, I'd got very used to aliases and use them a lot. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 15:28:18 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:28:18 -0700 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:15 PM > On 10/5/10, Andreas Holz > wrote: >> Hello, >> there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. > How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off > of a step-down transformer. What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:35:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:35:11 -0400 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off >> of a step-down transformer. > > What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of > gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the 110VAC is. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 15:36:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:36:27 -0600 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 21:48:19 +0200. <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: In article <4CAB8103.1020708 at t-online.de>, Andreas Holz writes: > I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've > never seen any on ebay before. I believe its called a Poisson distribution. The common expression is "when it rains, it pours". On ebay a successful sale of an item will often prod other owners of the same item to list theirs shortly after the first sale. Ironically the sellers see the first sale, which usually has a high closing price, and figure that they too can obtain that closing price. However, Mr. Deep Pockets already has his and isn't bidding on the subsequently listed items and they often sell for significantly less than what Mr. Deep Pockets paid in the original sale. Its supply and demand in action in a microcosm. A sudden increase in supply pushes the price down as the first "desperate" buyer is now out of the market. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From erik at baigar.de Tue Oct 5 15:41:20 2010 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tadpole/RDI UltraBook NVRAM problem... Message-ID: Dear Vintage-Computer experts, over the last year I "lost" two Tadpole/RDI UltraBook notebooks. These are Ultra Sparc based machines available in various configurations. Both machines refuse to boot, i.e. they pass all tests and print the right messages, but after initializing the memory they fail to load the kernel (boot disk) or do not send any network messages (boot net). I noticed, that there appear strange strings in the environment variables for hardware-revision for example and further investigation shows that the NVRAM (DS1643) must have lost a part of its content which are filled with e.g. 55 hexadecimal now. My question is, whether someone out there has got such an UltraBook up and running and is willing to read out the NVRAM and send me the contents. The machine has not to be opened to do this since the contents can be listed via the OpenBoot firmware. As most of the bytes should contain 00 it would for example be sufficient to take some low resolution photographs of the hex dump pages containing non-zero bytes and I'd be happy to type them into a hex editor myself... I'd post step by step instructions how the NVRAM's contents can be displayed... Best regards, Erik. P.S. The two UltraBooks are of the following type: U20-14-9-512P, Part No MU20014PCI36, Serial U20/1040, Serial ID 8527455. This one has got THREE hard drives. U200-14-3-128P, Part No MU20014PCI36, Serial U20-1253, Serial ID8526256 with two hard drive bays and one for the battery. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 5 15:56:38 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Richard wrote: > On ebay a successful sale of an item will often prod other owners of the > same item to list theirs shortly after the first sale. Ironically the > sellers see the first sale, which usually has a high closing price, and > figure that they too can obtain that closing price. However, Mr. Deep > Pockets already has his and isn't bidding on the subsequently listed > items and they often sell for significantly less than what Mr. Deep > Pockets paid in the original sale. Its supply and demand in action in > a microcosm. A sudden increase in supply pushes the price down as the > first "desperate" buyer is now out of the market. Except when Mr. Deep Pockets insists on buying up every instance of said item (or piece of a system). This has happened to me quite often. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 16:20:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:20:59 -0600 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:56:38 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > Except when Mr. Deep Pockets insists on buying up every instance of > said item (or piece of a system). This has happened to me quite often. Yes, well some pockets are deeper than others :-). For stuff like SAGE gear, I can easily see the situation you describe being the case. For things like VT100s, its a little different. I have seen a very nice condition VT100 offered on ebay and selling for a high price, followed by a splash of crappy VT100s being listed with high prices that don't sell. The stuff that I monitor tends to be more of the VT100 variety and less of the SAGE variety. Then again, rarity doesn't always translate to price, either. The Aesthedes graphic design system is *extremely* rare and very cool, but was obtained for $10. Of course shipping it was non-trivial, which is probably why no other buyers appeared. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 16:40:37 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:40:37 -0700 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:35 PM On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off >>> of a step-down transformer. >> What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of >> gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). > Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. > I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the 110VAC is. Oops. 1 huge latte isn't enough, I guess. Thanks for pointing this out so gently. Now I'm pulling the covers back over my head. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Oct 5 16:54:27 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:54:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Legendary_steampunk_computer_'should_be_built'_-_programmer_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net>, <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Oct 2010 at 19:20, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > >> I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you >> usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually >> in Babbage's design? > > My guess is the same as used on Jacquard looms: > > http://odur.let.rug.nl/~koster/musicbox/jacquard2.jpg Whoa, it really is a reel of cards... I'm guessing the bigger holes on the end are for tractor feed? Alexey From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 5 16:55:49 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:55:49 +0100 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <837A8B861C0F42078FBB8637823A408D@ANTONIOPC> Rich Alderson [RichA at vulcan.com] wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:35 PM > > On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>>> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run >>>> off of a step-down transformer. > >>> What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a >>> lot of gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and >>> Japan). > >> Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. > >> I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the >> 110VAC is. > > Oops. > > 1 huge latte isn't enough, I guess. > > Thanks for pointing this out so gently. Now I'm pulling the covers > back over my head. I can't speak for Germany but in the UK 110V/50Hz is often used in factories and building sites etc. (on building sites look for those car-battery-sized-ish yellow transformer boxes). Not that I'd necessarily expect to see a TU55 on a building site (or even on a factory floor) but the voltage/frequency combination is not actually outlandish. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 5 16:34:40 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:34:40 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com><012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the > Apple Mouse > > On 2 October 2010 13:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice > > recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can > > understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I > > can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found > > this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing > > indeed). > > Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly > > (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst > > some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. > > > > Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D > > TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. > > Not until we develop some form of telepathy, no. > > Speech is the major form of information exchange between humans, and > until the time we go to the machines, the machines will be coming to > us. They will be improved until they can understand us, or they'll be > replaced with something that can. > > By the same token, most humans have 2 eyes and can see in 3D, > therefore, displays will be improved until they can fully exploit the > human visual system. > > 3D isn't that hard. I played /Mafia II/ and /Starcraft II/ in 3D at > Eurogamer Expo yesterday. It works well and is really quite > impressive. It really did add to the gameplay experience. > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From shumaker at att.net Tue Oct 5 17:16:04 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:16:04 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 Message-ID: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? item no 250693741192 steve From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 17:20:49 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:20:49 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 > chips on a QBus card? ? ?Is it noteworthy? ?worth bidding on? unusual? > just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > item no 250693741192 >From what I can tell (and I'm sure others have more info than I do) the board, made by Virtual Microsystems, was probably used in a CD-ROM server. VM's products were based on InfoServers, so the board might be from one of their server boxes. Of course, I'm just guessing... I could be completely wrong. :) See http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-14019022.html for a bit of info that I found. Mark From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 17:31:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:20:49 -0700. Message-ID: Try asking Bill Thomasmeyer who was president of Virtual Microsystems from 1989-1995, which seems about the right time frame for this board. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Tue Oct 5 17:55:37 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 18:55:37 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:16:04 PDT.) <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: <20101005225537.C0F1AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? Last time one of these came to my attention (a month ago? and not sure which list I saw it on) it looked like these were hardware assist processors for CP/M emulation software that ran on the DEC CPU. De From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 17:55:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 23:55:51 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 22:34, Andrew Burton wrote: > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few > minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D > glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) Which ones? The ones nVidia are using are LCD shutters, not polarising or coloured. Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will bring it to millions quite soon. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 5 18:03:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 17:03:49 -0600 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4CABAED5.5060203@jetnet.ab.ca> On 05/10/2010 4:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of > spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go > away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. > They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will > bring it to millions quite soon. I guess now we can watch (but not for free) all the old B grade 3D movies from the 50's. Free TV is gone with the demise of TV broadcasting. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 18:46:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:46:33 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davidson > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:21 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker > wrote: > > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 > > chips on a QBus card? ? ?Is it noteworthy? ?worth bidding on? > unusual? > > just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > > > item no 250693741192 > > >From what I can tell (and I'm sure others have more info than I do) > the board, made by Virtual Microsystems, was probably used in a CD-ROM > server. VM's products were based on InfoServers, so the board might > be from one of their server boxes. Of course, I'm just guessing... I > could be completely wrong. :) > > See http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-14019022.html for a bit of info > that I found. > > Mark It looks like a Unibus card to me - look at the silkscreen at the fingers. C-F sounds like a SPC-slot board. That being said, I still couldn't figure out anything about it, but it sure looks cool -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 5 22:28:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of > spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go > away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. > They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will > bring it to millions quite soon. If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate the two eye images? vertical lenticular screen face? 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at 120Hz. The founder, Lenny Lipton, also claimed to be the original author of "Puff the magic dragon". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 5 22:33:41 2010 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:33:41 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? It's one of Virtual Microsystem's embedded processor boards. VMI made Qbus, Unibus and Nova (Data General) bus boards which allowed the execution of CM/P and MS-DOS (*not* PC-DOS) programs on DEC and DG hardware. The strangest of the bunch was a multiprocessor 68020-based embedded PICK system that I ended up laying code for sometime in the mid-80s. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 23:00:10 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:00:10 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Kennedy > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 8:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > > On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > It's one of Virtual Microsystem's embedded processor boards. VMI made > Qbus, Unibus and Nova (Data General) bus boards which allowed the > execution of CM/P and MS-DOS (*not* PC-DOS) programs on DEC and DG > hardware. The strangest of the bunch was a multiprocessor 68020-based > embedded PICK system that I ended up laying code for sometime in the > mid-80s. > Chris, it sounds like you have some knowledge of these boards. Anything else you can share with its new owner? :-) I couldn't resist.... -- Ian From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 5 23:32:47 2010 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:32:47 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Ian King wrote: > Chris, it sounds like you have some knowledge of these boards. Anything else you can share with its new owner? :-) I couldn't resist.... -- Ian It's been just shy of a quarter-century so my memory on this is going to be a little rusty :P VMI was a small firm located in Berkeley, California which made a collection of embedded coprocessors that they sold as "Bridge Boards". A typical board had between two and four coprocessors and generally included serial and parallel hardware (I believe a number of Unibus boards ended up being sold to a firm that packaged them as print servers). Each system consisted of one or more bridge boards, host-side software and a board-side BIOS that fielded calls and interacted with the host-side software in order to perform keyboard, terminal and disk I/O. Sometime around 1986 or 87 VMI was purchased by Ross Microsystems; their dying gasp was a bridge board that connected to an external chassis in order to support AT cards. Generally speaking only well behaved applications that only tried to interact with the hardware through the BIOS were supported. The software for this stuff is probably lost forever. The Intel BIOS was written by John Hinkley who co-founded Ronin with me to build the Hurricane accelerators for the Amiga; he subsequently wrote Vistapro; he might have some leads. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 23:57:02 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:57:02 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) Message-ID: Here's an oddball, too: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about powering such a device in the US? -- jht From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Oct 6 00:10:09 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate > the two eye images? vertical lenticular screen face? In addition to lenticular, folks are also doing a parallax barrier; essentially, you're looking at the screen through a striped mask, kind of like a sideways, inside-out Sony Trinitron. I'm not certain which tech the 3DS will be using. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 00:16:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:16:27 -0700 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CABA3BB.21618.38E241@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 0:57, Jason T wrote: > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? I suspect that this will work on 60Hz, so at the easiest, a Variac would do the trick. You could also find a power transformer or two that would do the job nicely, say a 24V and an 18V combination. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Oct 6 00:58:12 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 06:58:12 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com><4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Well at least it's found a good home. Being a DEC man I know little about IBM systems except 6150 AIX boxes. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 05 October 2010 07:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... On 10/5/10 2:01 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Yes, that's me. It's still right in the garage where we pulled it off the truck. It has been a very busy few months for me and I've not been able to get to it. I'm crossing my fingers for some time this fall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robin at hx-20.com Wed Oct 6 03:26:09 2010 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:26:09 +0100 Subject: IBM 5022 Message-ID: <29BE29CAD9DE4FBA95F218135FEACE27@AlienwareM15x> Hello Does anyone have a serviceable IBM 5022 disk drive unit, or perhaps have technical documentation on this drive that they would be prepared to scan and email? I have a single-platter disk pack (written in 1974) that I'd like to read. I believe it was written by a System/7. Am based in UK and US (MN). Thanks Robin From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 08:14:09 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:14:09 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Jason T wrote: > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? > > just use a Bally transformer out of a the MPU-35 system pinball game, the 43V tap is used for the coils - which has plenty of power - there's piles of them here - that calculator is not even half the power as a pinball game =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 09:00:52 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:00:52 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 06:10, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate >> the two eye images? ? ? vertical lenticular screen face? > > In addition to lenticular, folks are also doing a parallax barrier; > essentially, you're looking at the screen through a striped mask, kind of > like a sideways, inside-out Sony Trinitron. > > I'm not certain which tech the 3DS will be using. I believe so. A few links for those inclined to go digging: http://www.gizmag.com/sharp-3d-glasses-free-touchscreen/14716/ http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-978499.html http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Nintendo-3DS-3D-Glasses-DS,news-6237.html -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 11:52:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 09:52:40 -0700 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> Not everyone can see the 3D effect (and it's apparently a sizeable portion of the audience): http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/3d-tv-1.html For others, 3D viewing results in eyestrain and headaches. I'll happily take a well-made production with a good plot and acting any day to a "Bwana Devil" or "Cat-Women of the Moon". 3D motion pictures have been around for nearly a century. Every once in awhile the technology is resurrected and then abandoned. Quality writing, production and acting is timeless. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 6 12:14:26 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:14:26 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve asks: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > item no 250693741192 These were circa early 80's and this board was 4 CP/M systems. I think there were single and double boards too. There were some bizarre hooks between the CP/M BIOS and the Unibus (usually VAX/VMS... but there may have been others) filesystems that I never really grokked. The relationship to VMS printers was more straightforward. But yeah, you need some specialized drivers etc. probably not updated since VMS 3.x to use this. We had these in the 80's and the secretaries would connect to the VAX, then connect to the embedded CP/M system, and edit files using CP/M word processor, then print to printers on the VAX. Pretty convoluted. Later on the same secretaries used an emulated IBM PC inside the VAX. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 12:18:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:38 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim Message-ID: On alt.sys.pdp11 it was recently claimed: > Lack of use speeds up deterioration of things like capacitors > (especially electrolytics). Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of capacitors. Comments? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:19:43 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:19:43 -0500 Subject: Royal calculator available Message-ID: For the calculator collector: Royal 8HPD battery operated handheld printing calculator. It seems to be fully functional. Comes with two rolls of paper. I will accept the first decent offer above shipping costs from 53714. See a picture here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157625108629242 -Jon Jon Auringer From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 6 12:22:46 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:22:46 -0700 Subject: Mike Ross Contact Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DE0F010CB2C456DB61817CA25AA0A13@tegp4> If Mike is still on this mail list: yr email at mikecorestoreorg has been bouncing for about a week now, with a "Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) message. Does anyone have an alternate email address for Mike? Tom From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 12:30:41 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:30:41 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 17:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not everyone can see the 3D effect (and it's apparently a sizeable > portion of the audience): > > http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/3d-tv-1.html > > For others, 3D viewing results in eyestrain and headaches. > > I'll happily take a well-made production with a good plot and acting > any day to a "Bwana Devil" or "Cat-Women of the Moon". > > 3D motion pictures have been around for nearly a century. ?Every once > in awhile the technology is resurrected and then abandoned. > > Quality writing, production and acting is timeless. Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I was originally talking about 3D videogames, not TV or movies. It works quite well in the cinema - I saw Beowulf, Avatar and Coraline in this format and it's highly effective, especially if not gratuitously over-used. On domestic TV, well, I am not so sure - I think people are more likely to be multitasking TV-watching with other tasks, so neither specs not a very rigid seating position would work. But for computers and computer gaming, where people typically sit right in front of the screen, unmoving, and 1 screen per person is the rule, it seems to have far fewer technical obstacles. For console gaming, not so much, but on the PC, I can see it catching on. Serious gamers are already paying ?300-?400 for dedicated 3D video cards, and in many cases, pairs of them; the incremental cost of a special monitor and glasses might be accepted readily. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:34:07 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:34:07 -0500 Subject: Manuals for printers & plotters available Message-ID: I have the following manuals that I am willing to save from the recycle bin, if they are worth something to someone. Offers above shipping cost will be required to make it worth my time. All are in good condition, unless otherwise noted. HP 7580B, 7585B and 7586B Drafting plotters Operators manual HP 7580B, 7585B and 7586B Drafting plotters Interfacing and Programming manual (fair condition) Citizen MSP-40/45 User's Manual Dataproducts Model 9030/9040 Operating Guide Comrex ComRiter IIE User's Guide Star Gemini-10X/15X User's Manual Panasonic KX-P3151 Operating Instructions Star radix-10 pc radix-15 pc Users's Manual (good condition w/writing on cover) Mannesmann Tally Spirit-80 Operator's Manual Star Gemini-15 Operation Manual [preliminary] (photocopy, fair condition) -Jon From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:35:47 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:35:47 -0500 Subject: Manuals for printers & plotters available (omission) Message-ID: I neglected to mention that shipping is from 53714. -Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 12:36:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:36:13 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 11:18, Richard wrote: > On alt.sys.pdp11 it was recently claimed: > > > Lack of use speeds up deterioration of things like capacitors > > (especially electrolytics). > > Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail > on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall > seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of > capacitors. That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, but they can be brought back by "reforming". However, ESR is a big problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 12:41:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:41:14 -0700 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAC524A.26830.73200B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 18:30, Liam Proven wrote: > Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I was originally talking about 3D > videogames, not TV or movies. Video and computer gaming has never held interest to me. Wrong generation--to me, it seems like a fabulous waste of time that could be better spent doing something else. So I'm not qualified to comment on games. Besides, I have terrible depth perception. :) --Chuck From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:43:34 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:43:34 -0500 Subject: IKOS system manual Message-ID: I have a User's Guide for the "IKOS Systems AT Host", which is apparently a logic validation system. It happens to be in a binder labeled Graphics Plus GP-220 from Northwest Digital Systems. Both are in good condition. If either of these items is of interest, make me an offer to keep it from the recycle bin. Shipping will be from 53714 -Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 14:05:17 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone have docs for a Digital Engineering Retro-Graphics ("VT640") board? Message-ID: Hi, All, Jack Rubin sent me a Retro-Graphics upgrade board and cage that seem to have had an unpleasant interaction with mud daubers (I only have the boards, but the report is that the PSU of its former host did not survive). I'd like to clean an resurrect it, and I'd like to find any tech docs to go with. The closest I've found so far is a manual on Bitsavers for a version of the product for an ADM-3A terminal: http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/pdf/digitalEngineering/RG-512_Users_Man_1980.pdf I found a query from John Wilson (D-Bit) some months back where he's seeking a programmers' manual, so it appears there are more questors than answers. Does anyone have anything on this device? It's a DEC-quad-height-sized card, with connectors appropriate for a VT100 enclosure, a few cables (PSU and data to/from the main VT100 board) and a metal cage, possibly just the standard DEC cage from a VT100. I think I can see how to plug it all in, but beyond cleaning and checking for dead shorts, I'd like to know something about it before I apply voltage. Some very nice photos can be found here: http://www.fairlightcmi.com/VT640-board-set-eBay-photos.html Googling has so far only returned references to its use with the Synclavier II synthesizer (and its modern replacement, a "VT640" emulator for MacOS X) and various science and engineering apps from the heyday of VMS and dumb terminals. No technical data beyond a few control sequences. I know how to drive a Tektronix 4000-series graphics terminal (and have some nice Tek files from some recent research on my Tek 4105), but I'm really looking for hardware docs more than just lists of command sequences. Thanks for any assistance -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 6 14:16:16 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:16:16 +0200 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20101006211616.82a5de64.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 09:47:36 +0100 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > Can anyone tell me the required spec? I am not sure about unbuffered vs. registered. It needs PC83 (!) ECC SDRAM that is CL2 capable, two identical modules per bank, max. 256 MB per DIMM. I just threw in 256 MB PC133 ECC DIMMs from a PeeCee supplier when PC133 was curent technology and they worked. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 14:42:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, > but they can be brought back by "reforming". ?However, ESR is a big > problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an > electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. > > So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. > > All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to > dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of reforming will fix this problem. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:27:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:27:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: <837A8B861C0F42078FBB8637823A408D@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Oct 5, 10 10:55:49 pm Message-ID: > I can't speak for Germany but in the UK 110V/50Hz is often used in > factories > and building sites etc. (on building sites look for those > car-battery-sized-ish > yellow transformer boxes). I seem to remember that it's a legal requirement that portable power tools (things like electtic drills) used on building site have to be 110V, run from an isoalting transformer. The output of the transformer is acutally centre-tapped to earth (it's 55-0-55V AC), so in the event of insualtion breakdown, the worst shock you can receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. > > Not that I'd necessarily expect to see a TU55 on a building site (or > even on > a factory floor) but the voltage/frequency combination is not actually > outlandish. As I mentioned, there is a differnece between the output of those transformers and normal US mains. The fornmer has the centre tap gorudned, the later has one side grounded. Most equipment shouldn't mind about that (and I suspect the TU55 is OK), but I have seen sensitive analogue measuring equipment with different transformer primary wiring for centre-tapped-to-ground and one-side-groudned mains. Apparently it slightly reduces noise pickup. Having got one of those transformers to run portable power tools, one of the first things I did was make up a cable with a US socket on one end and a plug to fit the trasnformer output (I still call it BS4343, I can;'t rememebr the CEN number) on the other. Very useful for testing US main adapters, etc. It's not a TU55, I know, but the PC04 and PC05 all had 110V motors in the punches. The ones sold in Europe were designed to run on 50Hz mains (I don;t know if there's a pulley/belt change, or if like the HP2748 reader they just ran slower over here), and came with a step-down transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:34:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:34:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 10 08:28:51 pm Message-ID: > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I assume they've increased the frame rate by now. I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to getting all that working again... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:39:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Oct 6, 10 00:57:02 am Message-ID: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? What is the device? In particular, is it going to care about the mains frequency. If it caould run at 42V 60Hz, you could use a simple step-down transofrmer to run it, I would recomend a double-wound (isolating) transformer, since an autotransformer, could end up putting the device 110V above ground, and I;d not trust the insulation to stand that. If it really does require 50Hzm then you basically either have to use a motor-generator set or rectify the US mains to get DC and re-chop it at 50Hz. You mightm for example, be abke to use one of the better (sine-wave output) Europena-market inverters to get 'mains' from a car battery (that would give you 230V, 50Hz) and a step-down transoformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:44:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:44:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Oct 6, 10 09:14:09 am Message-ID: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > powering such a device in the US? > > > > > just use a Bally transformer out of a the MPU-35 system pinball game, the > 43V tap is used for the coils - which has plenty of power - there's piles of > them here - that calculator is not even half the power as a pinball game Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace the transformer with one that takes your mains input. I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 15:43:27 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0300 Subject: capacitor aging claim References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0c4a01cb6598$1174e920$cf9858bb@portajara> >I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers >mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as >capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of >reforming will fix this problem. Never forget the tantalum ones... :o) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 16:02:42 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101006135208.U76536@shell.lmi.net> > > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. There seems to be a lot of variation in how much flicker people can or will put up with. That's why SG went for the 120Hz, instead of the [at that time] much more common 60Hz. Do British TVs have a 50Hz flicker? SGs financial problems were not primarily technical. They arose from such behaviors as listing investments as "income", and a relaxed "California style" corporate culture that included "working from home" by employees with jobs inappropriate for that, such as receptionist. > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > getting all that working again... OK, I understand the principle behind LCD shutter glasses. And they certainly were a major step up from Lipton's original spinning wheel. But how do LED spectacles work? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 16:11:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101006140423.H76536@shell.lmi.net> > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > > powering such a device in the US? On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply > you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a > tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace > the transformer with one that takes your mains input. > I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. I suppose that is better than a motor turning a generator, or a power supply to convert 110V 60Hz to 12VDC, connected to an inverter that takes 12VDC, and outputs 42V 50Hz, which goes into the device's power supply that outputs 12VDC? :-) (although a few car batteries would smooth out the 12V, and provide a crude UPS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 16:15:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 15:15:04 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Oct 2010 15:42:32 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, > > but they can be brought back by "reforming". However, ESR is a big > > problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an > > electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. > > > > So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. > > > > All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to > > dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. > > I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers > mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as > capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of > reforming will fix this problem. To add some specifics to the claim: it was in reference to the power supply on a Terak workstation. (PDP-11 with a monochrome frame buffer, see pics here: and docs here: . I believe this system has a simple linear power supply design, but bitsavers doesn't have schematics online and I'm away from my unit to inspect it right now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 6 16:42:16 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 17:42:16 -0400 Subject: Another huge collection for sale Message-ID: <4CACED38.2000900@snarc.net> See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. (A few people asked me if this is Sellam's. The answer is no.) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 17:50:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 Subject: Another huge collection for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Oct 2010 17:42:16 -0400. <4CACED38.2000900@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 hours left on the listing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 6 19:32:48 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:32:48 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010062032.49065.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, October 06, 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > powering such a device in the US? > > What is the device? It's a 1990 or so (Russian) desktop calculator. Not like an HP "Calculator" computer, but a slightly more than 4-function calculator. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 20:07:14 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 02:07:14 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: >> 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their >> "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. ?They were using SGI workstations at > > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. > > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > getting all that working again... nVidia's setup is a 120Hz screen, ergo, I presume, 60Hz shuttering. Flicker was rarely noticeable, but then, I am not at all sensitive to such things. I suppose the difference is now that any games-capable recent nVidia card will do it & the bundle of wireless specs (estimate battery life is on the other of months between recharges) and screen is ?250-300 - for a 24" widescreen. I am guessing 20Y ago, you could have added at least 1 zero on the end of that... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 20:27:56 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 21:27:56 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I suppose the difference is now that any games-capable recent nVidia > card will do it& the bundle of wireless specs (estimate battery life > is on the other of months between recharges) and screen is ?250-300 - > for a 24" widescreen. I am guessing 20Y ago, you could have added at > least 1 zero on the end of that... Could you even *get* a monitor that could do high-res @120Hz twenty years ago? For *any* amount of money? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 20:51:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Could you even *get* a monitor that could do high-res @120Hz twenty > years ago? For *any* amount of money? Depends on your definition of "high-res". Silicon Graphics certainly had megapixel and higher for cad work, etc. For PC, though, "Wyse WY-700"/"Amdek 1280" at 1280 x 800 monochrome was state of the art, and "super-VGA" was moving upwards from 800 x 600. Twenty-FIVE years ago, EGA was considered hot. THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 6 21:33:43 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 6, 10 07:34:26 pm" Message-ID: <201010070233.o972Xhsc013904@floodgap.com> > > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at > > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. I'm sensitive to any refresh rate under 85Hz (even 72 and 75 give me eyestrain after awhile), so I've assiduously avoided any spectacle-based 3D. The lenticular methods look interesting, but I'm reserving judgment. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What's another word for thesaurus? ----------------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 17:18:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:18:28 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card Message-ID: I just picked up one of these: http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do with this? What's the db-9 port for? brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 22:53:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:53:19 -0300 Subject: An interesting isa card References: Message-ID: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? (from the site you put here) Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an internal header on the board. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 6 22:54:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 23:54:19 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010062354.19797.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, October 06, 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I just picked up one of these: > > http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? From the page you linked to: "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an internal header on the board." I'm guessing it's so you can connect the on-board relay to something external to the machine. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 6 23:14:56 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:14:56 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 6, at 3:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I just picked up one of these: > > http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? Did you miss the manual and software downloads on the web page? It lists the pinout for the DB-9 and has lots of other details. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 23:38:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 21:38:38 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> References: , <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 0:53, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked > > up software, then presses the reset button for you. Did you get the temperature option? I note that they talk about the NMI option, which can be set to provide an NMI about half-second before a reboot. The problem with these things are that if you have some sort of error condition, the system will keep resetting itself and slamming into the error that caused the reset initially. Perhaps you can have an application set up a nonvolatile status file somewhere (it would be nice if the card furnished this) so that you could determine where in the whole affair that the reset kicked in and perhaps take some remedial action, such as discarding a troublesome input or transaction. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 23:57:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:57:05 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Depends on your definition of "high-res". I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 6 23:57:10 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 pre-order deadline Message-ID: The deadline for pre-ordering a P112 kit, October 11, is approaching. I need to have 35 pre-orders before I can go ahead and have the boards made. I've only been able to pre-sell twelve kits. If I can't get 24 more kits sold by then, I'll have to cancel the project. I don't have the spare cash to finance the project entirely on my own. For those who are curious: I set the cutoff to October 11 because that's 60 days after the first order was placed. I can refund Paypal payments and get the fee back only within that window. The minimum of 35 pre-orders was chosen because for that number, I'll have the money to have 100 boards made and get parts for 35 kits. From that point on, the process becomes self-sustaining. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 00:02:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> > > Depends on your definition of "high-res". On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. 20 years ago, SGI. There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. Earlier than that, I vaguely remember that during a Siggraph meeting at Moscone center, one of the street vendors had "Hi-res" root beer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doug at stillhq.com Thu Oct 7 05:47:21 2010 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:47:21 +1100 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> Naaaaah, It is *exactly what the average windows server needs.. (duck!) Doug Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 0:53, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > >>> from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked >>> up software, then presses the reset button for you. >>> > > Did you get the temperature option? > > I note that they talk about the NMI option, which can be set to > provide an NMI about half-second before a reboot. > > The problem with these things are that if you have some sort of error > condition, the system will keep resetting itself and slamming into > the error that caused the reset initially. Perhaps you can have an > application set up a nonvolatile status file somewhere (it would be > nice if the card furnished this) so that you could determine where in > the whole affair that the reset kicked in and perhaps take some > remedial action, such as discarding a troublesome input or > transaction. > > --Chuck > > > > > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 06:17:37 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 06:17:37 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was in sort of a hurry. I saw the driver image, but not the manual. Although now it seems ovbious to me that they would have that. Old-timer's disease I guess. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 6, at 3:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I just picked up one of these: >> >> http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx >> >> from ebay for $7. ?It looks like it watches the machine for locked up >> software, then presses the reset button for you. ?What else can I do >> with this? ?What's the db-9 port for? > > Did you miss the manual and software downloads on the web page? > It lists the pinout for the DB-9 and has lots of other details. > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 06:18:41 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 06:18:41 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> References: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Naaaaah, > > It is *exactly what the average windows server needs.. > > (duck!) > > Doug They even mention the blue screed of death specifically. :-D brian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 07:28:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 07:28:51 -0500 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Depends on your definition of "high-res". > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. > > 20 years ago, SGI. > There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I don't know at what point they got into that game. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 08:26:28 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 08:26:28 -0500 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:15 PM 10/6/2010, Richard wrote: >To add some specifics to the claim: it was in reference to the power >supply on a Terak workstation. (PDP-11 with a monochrome frame >buffer, see pics here: >and docs here: . I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. I think I have a spare power supply, too, and had email contact with one of the Terak engineers once upon a time. - John From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 08:45:59 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:45:59 +0100 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators Message-ID: I (re-)discovered a remarkable tool last week, which absorbed a day and a bit. Even if you're not interested in the ZX Spectrum, I think it's worth a look. It's called BASin. There's no good homepage for it, alas. The current "official" one is here but it contains little content: http://sites.google.com/site/pauldunn/ There's also a blog: http://zxdunny.wordpress.com/ You can download it here (although v14c is not a very current version): http://www.worldofspectrum.org/emulators.html The latest stable version I've been able to find mention of is 14d - you can see a record of its deletion in the site activity page of the GooglePages site. I've not managed to find a download of it, though. There was an experimental build, 15.6, which I found a download of somewhere - just the binary, no installer or other resources. Past the EXE on top of the EXE of an installed copy of 14c and it works, though. A little more (obsolete) info: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.sinclair/msg/4eeb4ffc8725beec?pli=1 Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows, reworked so that the display and the BASIC editor are 2 separate windows. One is a proper native Sinclair display, with attribute clash and all the other horrors that make Speccy fans nostalgic. The other is a Windows window, in which you get a 128K Spectrum-style editor - typed keywords rather than arcane keystrokes to enter keywords in a single keypress, but with modern Windows niceties: cut & paste, a ruler, a syntax helper, bracket matching, error messages as dialogue boxes with verbose text, line-by-line execution tracing, variable checkpoints, etc. etc. You can set the speed of the emulator, so you need not wait hours to see what a real 3.5MHz Spectrum would do - you can run stuff at an emulated 55MHz (on my PC) to see if it works, then slow it down to real speed to see what genuine hardware would do. The Help file contains the entire Sinclair manual turned into a modern hyperlinked Help system, along with program help. You can zoom the display, change the fonts used in the editor and so on. Files can be loaded and saved into the native Windows filesystem using the menus, but the emulator can still handle cassette-tape images and so on. It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, instability, slowness, etc. It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine & the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. I'm sure some people would consider it heresy to pollute a classic platform with modernities, but it strikes me as a really productive blending. I'm going to try to resurrect some of my unfinished Speccy projects that were just too painful to try to finish on the original machine. By the way, although it's a Windows 32-bit binary, it runs fine on Windows 7 64-bit, under XP in VirtualBox on Linux, and stably if a bit slowly under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu 10.04. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From auringer at tds.net Thu Oct 7 09:03:52 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:03:52 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu Line printer manuals Message-ID: I have come across the following manuals for the Fujitsu M304X Series Line Printer: OEM Manual (good condition other than some notes written inside and on the cover) Operator's Guide (good other than rubber band residue on covers) CE Manual (good other than rubber band residue on covers) Located in 53714. Anyone interested? -Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 11:53:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:53:46 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net>, , <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAD98AA.22674.56348A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 22:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > Earlier than that, I vaguely remember that during a Siggraph meeting > at Moscone center, one of the street vendors had "Hi-res" root beer. Aw... --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Thu Oct 7 13:14:53 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:14:53 -0700 Subject: HP 9845A's Birth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62C6E74E-376A-4FF8-89AF-BD1F836C9283@comcast.net> An interesting article on the gestation of the HP 9845A: CRC From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Oct 7 13:26:14 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:26:14 -0400 Subject: Another huge collection for sale Message-ID: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, > Evan Koblentz writes: > > > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. > > All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units > quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is > "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than > $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing > is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 > hours left on the listing. If this was me, I would sell each item separately, or find someone to do it for me, for the next few years. I'd have two or three items posted per week so that I could answer questions individually. You'll only get a wholesale price with such a huge lot, but I assume the seller is motivated by time. Certainly this is a two feet in the ocean vintage computer collection none the less, even if there are not a lot of really rare items. For all we know the seller is keeping the "good stuff" and purging his more common items. Or, it may be a must sell thing, we all have had our backs against the wall and need to sell of stuff to pay the bills. I wish him well and I hope that these items find themselves in the hands of a person who will keep them in good shape. Bill From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 13:36:47 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:36:47 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Depends on your definition of "high-res". >>>> >>> >> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. >>> >> >> 20 years ago, SGI. >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. >> > > Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making > displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I > don't know at what point they got into that game. > > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all - gimme a break ! Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as 1980 - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but still. We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at SEL - even Rediffusion. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 13:57:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> > >> 20 years ago, SGI. > >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all - > gimme a break ! > Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with > resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as 1980 > - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but still. > We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at SEL > - even Rediffusion. Sarcasm and/or ridiculing words such as "defined" is oft wasted on this group! Why do you s'pose I put "defined" in quotes? SGI may have been the best-known, but surely nobody would think that they were "first"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 14:24:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:24:41 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> 20 years ago, SGI. > > >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all > - > > gimme a break ! > > Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with > > resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as > 1980 > > - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but > still. > > We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at > SEL > > - even Rediffusion. > > Sarcasm and/or ridiculing words such as "defined" is oft wasted on this > group! > Why do you s'pose I put "defined" in quotes? > > SGI may have been the best-known, > but surely nobody would think that they were "first"! > > some levity doesn't hurt, doldrums is bad for your health :) From auringer at tds.net Thu Oct 7 14:40:11 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:40:11 -0500 Subject: MAC stuff that needs to go Message-ID: I currently have only an LC II, and it is headed to recycle heaven. I have the following MAC stuff that will go that way also, unless someone really wants it. I can't guarantee that all the floppies are readable. Link to photos below. Located in 53714. Make me an offer I can't refuse. -Jon -- Micronet model MS-120x external hard drive with manual and floppy disk - worked last time I tried it Tekalike terminal emulation - complete with manual and case Pile of original disks, including: -several versions of Excel -Pagemaker -MacDraft -Laserwriter -Mac System disks -Fullpaint -Expressionist -MS Basic -Cricket Graph http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157625115800420 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 14:58:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 20:58:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: <20101006135208.U76536@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 02:02:42 pm Message-ID: > There seems to be a lot of variation in how much flicker people can or > will put up with. That's why SG went for the 120Hz, instead of the [at > that time] much more common 60Hz. Do British TVs have a 50Hz flicker? Old Euorpen TVs did, indeed have a 50Hz flicker (interlaced scanning, 25 complete pictures per second). Actually, you got used to it, and it wasn;t annoying on most TV programmes. Using them for computer displays was somwewhat woese :-) Some of the more recent upmarket CRT-based TVs had a built-in framestore and scan doubler, and has 100Hz rather than 50Hz flicker. It was better, but not enough IMHO to justify the prices of the set. Of coure with LCD and Plasma displys the scan rates can be just aobut anything... [...] > > > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > > getting all that working again... > > OK, I understand the principle behind LCD shutter glasses. And they > certainly were a major step up from Lipton's original spinning wheel. > > But how do LED spectacles work? They don't, and nor do I, apparently. I meant LCD spectacles, of course. IMHO this unit is not up to the normal E&S standards. The control box is very simple, it uses an LM1881 or similar to get the vertical sync pulse form the sync-on-green video signals, feeds that into a divide-by-2, and uses the ouputs from that, along with some XOR gates to drive the LCDs. Thing is, there';s not absolut sync reference, it just changes shuters after every vertical scan. So you may well get the wrong picture for each eye. There's a button on the front of the control unit to reverse the shutters, if the picture looks wrong (comes towards you ratehr than goes away), you frob this. A bit of a kludge... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:04:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:04:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: <20101006140423.H76536@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 02:11:55 pm Message-ID: > > Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply > > you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a > > tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace > > the transformer with one that takes your mains input. > > I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. > > I suppose that is better than a motor turning a generator, or > a power supply to convert 110V 60Hz to 12VDC, connected to an inverter > that takes 12VDC, and outputs 42V 50Hz, which goes into the device's power > supply that outputs 12VDC? :-) > (although a few car batteries would smooth out the 12V, and provide a > crude UPS) Hmmm... It depends on how 'original' you want the device to me. What I typically do is run it from astep-down transformer (provided it's not going to mind the lower mains frequency over here) to check that it works and to measure the transofrmer output voltages. And then I'll seriously consider replacing the transfoemr with one that has a 230V primary. If I care about originality, I leave the original transformer in place, and run it from the step-down transformer always. Of course if there's a mains voltage selector device I flip that. Therehas been one exception to all this so far. A 3rd-party power supply for the HP9114 HPIL disk drive (connects in place of the battery pack) that I believe was sold by a well-knwon HP calculator place. I was going to simply replace the transformer, but it was so badly made that IMHO it wasn't even safe for 115V mains input, let alone 230V. I simply built a complete new PSU -- properly! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:11:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:11:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm Message-ID: > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. Only if you were a 'micro' person. The PERQ was just around 30 years ago, that was 768*1024 (portrait, I don;t think the landscape model, 1280*1202) was out by then. 1 bit per pixel, of course. And I have an image display for minicomptuters (PDP11/VAX/HP2100/etc) from that pewriod which is 512*512*30 bits. That's the version with the more expensive DAC board, the standard version was 'only' 24 bits per pixel. And don't forget vector displays. Resolutiuons of 1024 points on each axis were commonplace. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:14:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <201010062354.19797.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 6, 10 11:54:19 pm Message-ID: > "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 > internal header on the board." And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:21:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:21:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 7, 10 07:28:51 am Message-ID: > Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making > displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I > don't know at what point they got into that game. Barco have been around for _ages_. I distinctly remember modifying a Barco colour monitor to give it RGB inptus when I was still at school (1984-ish). That high-end image display system I mentioned in another message came with a Barco monitor, and I am pretty sure I have repaired a _valved_ monitor made by them But 30 years ago, I would have associated the company with TV boradcast standard monitors, etc rather than hi-res computer displays. Perhaps that unfair and I hadn't come across their computer products. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:35:50 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 >> internal header on the board." > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 7 15:39:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:39:36 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> On 10/7/10 4:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and >>> an=20 >>> internal header on the board." >> >> And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > > Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. *snicker* They also sell them at Correctronics! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:40:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> > > "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 > > internal header on the board." On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Easy. You take a DB25, and remove pins 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 15:48:18 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:48:18 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010072048.o97Kmc7L061746@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:35 PM 10/7/2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. Pedantronix Ltd., please. It is their correct name, you know. - John From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 7 15:55:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:55:42 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 08:26:28 -0500. <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. Well, isn't the answer just what we always do? Replace the caps and try again? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:58:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> References: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101007134905.E34706@shell.lmi.net> >> And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. But, they seem to have run out of 3.25" floppy disks, 56K Baud modems, as well as both the 65.536K and the 1024000 byte memory chips. And the USB powered space heater doesn't work very well. Is the eBay bidding for the California governator auction going to end with a B.I.N.? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 7 16:02:17 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:02:17 +0100 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: >> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and >> an=20 internal header on the board." > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 16:04:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:04:01 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm, Message-ID: <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line technology in 1958: http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 16:14:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm, <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007140722.D34706@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In > particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line > technology in 1958: > http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm I, NOT TONY!, was the author of the conflation of "what I can pick up at a local store in MY price range, and carry home" V what existed in the industry. (I had B&W CCTV monitors, and no hope of getting anything better) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 7 16:12:55 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:12:55 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was:Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com><012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa><00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <008b01cb6666$2bd52f40$acfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was:Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse > > On 5 October 2010 22:34, Andrew Burton wrote: > > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few > > minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D > > glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) > > Which ones? The ones nVidia are using are LCD shutters, not polarising > or coloured. I have only had the chance to try the (cheap) coloured ones. Infact, I was watching an Amiga demo (by Fanatix) that did feature a rotating cube for 3D glasses. They had the cube drawn twice in two different colours, spaced appropriately apart, to give the effect. However, I didn't have any 3D glasses with me at the time :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:28:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:28:28 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > You take a DB25, and remove pins > 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 According to the mil-spec, that is actually more correct than not. -- Will From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:38:56 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (ragooman at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Message-ID: <4cae3df0.c624e70a.7b2b.5f65@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- Date: Thursday, October 07, 2010 5:15:40 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" From: "Fred Cisin" Subject: Re: 3D On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In > particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line > technology in 1958: > http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm And did that come with a mercury delay line frame buffer ? :) =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:05:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 22:02, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? Actually this whole affiar sounds more like a DB-8... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 17:09:22 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:09:22 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers > mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as > capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of > reforming will fix this problem. > I thought that when the seal failed, the electrolyte dried out? Either way, though, you're correct; once the seal has failed the capacitor needs to be replaced. I worked on the PDP-1 Restoration Project at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA. This equipment was manufactured in 1961. We did about six months of inspection, maintenance, and repair of the PDP-1 and the Type 30G display before we first applied power. Part of this process was to check all of the electrolytic capacitors, and reforming or replace them as necessary. It appeared that all of the capacitors were original. Many of them needed to be reformed, and we used an extremely over-engineered approach to doing that. Only a very small percentage of the electrolytic capacitors had failed such that they could not be reformed. I fully expect that all of those capacitors will fail eventually, but there isn't nearly enough data to predict a mean lifetime. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 17:12:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:12:16 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> On 10/06/2010 10:18 AM, Richard wrote: > Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail > on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall > seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of > capacitors. > > The oxide layer breaks down over time, which lowers the breakdown voltage of the capacitor. If you then apply the full working voltage, it will damage the capacitor. The oxide layer can be "reformed" by application of a limited current to the capacitor. This is actually how the oxide layer is initially formed when the capacitor is manufactured. If the capacitor is reformed properly, it should have performance characteristics comparable to those it had after manufacture. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 17:13:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> > > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually this whole affiar sounds more like a DB-8... Pull one more pin. No DataTerminalReady? or no CarrierDetect? Or are the frame ground and signal ground twisted together? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 7 17:15:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:15:41 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:12:16 -0700. <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAE45C0.5070807 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > The oxide layer can be "reformed" by application of a limited current to > the capacitor. Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly accelerates the deterioriation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:23:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:23:16 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I thought that when the seal failed, the electrolyte dried out? Either way spells bad news. Bad seals, however, can happen to any type of capacitor. When I was looking at Claude's B205 mainframe in hopes to resurrect it, it became quickly apparent that nearly every capacitor in the thing (I estimated 6000) needed replacement, because Burroughs used those old Sprague "bumblebees". Many of the capacitors were so bad you could see cracks in the plastic. Moisture + paper + high voltage. > I fully expect that all of those capacitors will fail eventually, but there > isn't nearly enough data to predict a mean lifetime. I bet there is a truckload of electrolytic capacitor failure data in certain archives. The military has been seriously studying component failure ever since World War 2. We have found the studies for tube failures in computers and electronics, and they really tell all, but not one for capacitor life (partly because there are not many hardcore old capacitor geeks out there). -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:24:50 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:24:50 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? Message-ID: I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? I remember flight simulator was pretty good with the 600x400? graphics Autocad 2.6 too, I dont know yet if I have the math chip installed How could I go wrong for $25? They have another one if anybody wants it (Surplusgizmos.com) Randy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:26:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. > The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in > operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly > accelerates the deterioriation. But running the device will dry out and stress the seals faster. Getting old sucks. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 7 17:31:31 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Getting old sucks. It beats the alternative, though... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:37:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:37:26 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >?Only a very small percentage of the electrolytic > capacitors had failed such that they could not be reformed. Could you confirm that the failures were due to not being able to reform, rather than another failure mode? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:37:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:37:43 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CADE947.8663.19118B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 15:09, Eric Smith wrote: > I worked on the PDP-1 Restoration Project at the Computer History > Museum in Mountain View, CA. This equipment was manufactured in 1961. > We did about six months of inspection, maintenance, and repair of the > PDP-1 and the Type 30G display before we first applied power. Part of > this process was to check all of the electrolytic capacitors, and > reforming or replace them as necessary. It appeared that all of the > capacitors were original. Many of them needed to be reformed, and we > used an extremely over-engineered approach to doing that. Only a very > small percentage of the electrolytic capacitors had failed such that > they could not be reformed. That picture will most likely change if it hasn't. I recently revisted a small pile of Boschert switching PSUs from about 1976. A fair number of them had electrolytics that were little more than empty cans. No obvious seals blown, just bone dry inside. I believe they were either Illinois or Elna. The high frequencies used in these coupled with the relatively poor ESR characteristics of the capacitors of the time probably means lots of internal heating and subsequent failure. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:38:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:38:45 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com>, , Message-ID: <4CADE985.30547.1920A4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 18:26, William Donzelli wrote: > Getting old sucks. A favorite quote from one of my departed teachers: "Don't get old-- you won't like it." --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:39:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:39:57 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CADE9CD.19773.193235E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 15:13, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Actually this whole affair sounds more like a DB-8... > > Pull one more pin. > > No DataTerminalReady? or no CarrierDetect? Or are the frame ground > and signal ground twisted together? Read my post quickly several times. -Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:10:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:10:44 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > Only if you were a 'micro' person. The PERQ was just around 30 years ago, > that was 768*1024 (portrait, I don;t think the landscape model, > 1280*1202) was out by then. 1 bit per pixel, of course. > > And I have an image display for minicomptuters (PDP11/VAX/HP2100/etc) from > that pewriod which is 512*512*30 bits. That's the version with the more > expensive DAC board, the standard version was 'only' 24 bits per pixel. > > And don't forget vector displays. Resolutiuons of 1024 points on each > axis were commonplace. But with many colors and 120Hz? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:14:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:14:10 -0400 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? I'd go with an ISA IDE card and a CompactFlash. > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? Do I remember correctly that there was a text-mode web browser with later versions of Clarkson Telnet? Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:22:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:22:31 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > But with many colors and 120Hz? It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube to play along is where things get tough. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 20:03:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 19:22, William Donzelli wrote: > > But with many colors and 120Hz? > > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. I see phosphor decay rates as being a problem if we're talking a frame rate of 120 Hz. Were dual-beam CRTs ever used for high- resolution display (one beam scans even lines; the other scans odd)? All in all, you'd be better off with 2 CRTs instead of one. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 20:08:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:08:43 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I see phosphor decay rates as being a problem if we're talking a > frame rate of 120 Hz. ?Were dual-beam CRTs ever used for high- > resolution display (one beam scans even lines; the other scans odd)? Use a faster phosphor. P4 and P22 are medium speed. There are much faster formulations. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 20:32:28 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:32:28 -0300 Subject: capacitor aging claim References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199801cb6688$dde970c0$cf9858bb@portajara> >> Getting old sucks. > It beats the alternative, though... ' How could you know? Has you been there before? ;oD From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 20:41:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com>, <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007180941.K37660@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > All in all, you'd be better off with 2 CRTs instead of one. I played with that in the early 1980s. I used viewfinders from video cameras. Take a matching pair, and turn the eyepiece cup around to turn one into left-eye, and bolt them on a bracket. I used B&W, because I'd rather have sharp than colorful (in text mode, the B&W viewfinders could resolve 80x25 text quite comfortably) I fed each one from a separate computer, because I never could manage to get 2 CGA cards to coexist in one machine. I never took it past "proof of concept" (a few 640x200 B&W still images) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:05:54 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:05:54 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> References: , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:14:10 -0400 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > CC: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: > > > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? > > I'd go with an ISA IDE card and a CompactFlash. > > > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? > > Do I remember correctly that there was a text-mode web browser with > later versions of Clarkson Telnet? > > Peace... Sridhar OK I got this far... Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the floppy disk. Aha, its already got a Hardcard inside! I open it up, and I feel no mechanical motion or hear any sound, the drive does feel warm, so darn it, its locked up. And the connector is proprietary, takes the flex straight to the drive. I see electronics that look like a data separator, some tweakable caps, so the HardcardPlus boards are not even MFM type interfaces. Next problem, this is the keytronics capacitive keyboard, and it has the foam rot problem, I have some dead keys. I read you can use double sided foam tape, stick the Mylar circles on it and fix these keyboards. Ill try that next... as if my time is worth nothing. Hey we are hobby computerists. Randy From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:32:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:32:16 -0300 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? References: , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> >Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the >floppy disk. The motor of the hardcard is probably stopped by heads glued to the platter, due to the time it doesn't run Try banging the hardcard on the table, it usually releases the heads :) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 22:23:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:23:08 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. Actually, it is. The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it is supposed to be. If you take a 25V electrolytic capacitor, and use it at only 6V for a long time, then apply 25V suddenly, you're likely to damage it. > The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in > operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly > accelerates the deterioriation. Yes. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 22:27:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:27:45 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAE8FB1.1090203@brouhaha.com> On 10/07/2010 03:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Could you confirm that the failures were due to not being able to > reform, rather than another failure mode? We didn't attempt any failure analysis. Our reformation procedure involved computing a current limit at voltage steps of 0.5V each. If at any given step, the leakage current of the capacitor didn't drop below a reasonable level after an extended period (perhaps 12 hours), we considered the capacitor to need replacement. IIRC, most of the ones that failed never dropped to a reasonable leakage current even at a fairly low voltage. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 22:39:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:39:05 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 20:23, Eric Smith wrote: > If you take a 25V electrolytic capacitor, and use it at only 6V for a > long time, then apply 25V suddenly, you're likely to damage it. Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:47:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:47:09 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? If the innards are contaminated, it is possible. An example would be the aforementioned paper Sprague "bumblebees" - more often then not, moisture has penetrated the case and has compromised the dielectric. You can safely use them at low voltages, as guitarists do, but at rated voltage (200 to 600 Volts, depending on the type), they will likely fail. I am not so sure about oil caps - they tend to be pretty bulletproof. Even when the seals leak, they still tend to be good at rated voltage. It could be that the oil just keeps everything else out of the innards. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 23:06:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:06:13 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 23:47, William Donzelli wrote: > If the innards are contaminated, it is possible. An example would be > the aforementioned paper Sprague "bumblebees" - more often then not, > moisture has penetrated the case and has compromised the dielectric. > You can safely use them at low voltages, as guitarists do, but at > rated voltage (200 to 600 Volts, depending on the type), they will > likely fail. I remember the bumblebees--black phenolic body with yellow printing, right? How about the steel-jacketed Vitamin Q caps? (they could be pretty scary when they went). Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? I'm thinking about a bunch of old motor-starting capacitors that I have kicking around... --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:19:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:19:35 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> References: , , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com>, , <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:32:16 -0300 > > >Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the > >floppy disk. > > The motor of the hardcard is probably stopped by heads glued to the > platter, due to the time it doesn't run > > Try banging the hardcard on the table, it usually releases the heads :) > I did better than that, took its cover off. Gave those platters a spin. Formatted just fine too. Lets see how long it lasts. Randy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:20:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:20:56 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I remember the bumblebees--black phenolic body with yellow printing, > right? Yes, although I think the term "bumblebee" comes from the OEM version with color code bands, much like resistors. It seems like at least two of the six or seven bands are yellow, thus the name. > How about the steel-jacketed Vitamin Q caps? (they could be pretty > scary when they went). Vitamin Qs (and similar Astron and Gudeman caps) were, and still are, pretty bulletproof. But yes, when they fail they can make a hell of a mess. The oil is not PCB laden, but plain mineral oil. I save every one of these caps I can get my hands on. > Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? The oil caps actually were paper, but the oil soaked the paper through. Plain paper capacitors generally had no oil. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 00:16:15 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 22:16:15 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CAEA91F.1060809@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? It applies to aluminum electrolytics, and possibly to other kinds of electrolytic, but I don't think it would apply to non-electrolytic capacitors. Eric From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Oct 8 03:02:59 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:02:59 +0100 Subject: Another huge collection for sale In-Reply-To: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> References: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> Message-ID: My guess is the seller didn't collect any of it. Clearly he didn't pay $5000 for it either. There's a lot of software that may or may not run. There are one or two attractive items. The vast majority of it can be described as home or personal computers. Nothing of interest to me because: 1. I live in the UK 2. With one exception I collect DEC systems. 3. The exception? - I'm looking for a 230v Northstar Horizon or parts thereof. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan Sent: 07 October 2010 19:26 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, > Evan Koblentz writes: > > > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. > > All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units > quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is > "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than > $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing > is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 > hours left on the listing. If this was me, I would sell each item separately, or find someone to do it for me, for the next few years. I'd have two or three items posted per week so that I could answer questions individually. You'll only get a wholesale price with such a huge lot, but I assume the seller is motivated by time. Certainly this is a two feet in the ocean vintage computer collection none the less, even if there are not a lot of really rare items. For all we know the seller is keeping the "good stuff" and purging his more common items. Or, it may be a must sell thing, we all have had our backs against the wall and need to sell of stuff to pay the bills. I wish him well and I hope that these items find themselves in the hands of a person who will keep them in good shape. Bill From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:35:21 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 01:35:21 -0700 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I got this gem for $25 today. ?What would you guys recomend next: > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? > I remember flight simulator was pretty good with the 600x400? graphics > Autocad 2.6 too, I dont know yet if I have the math chip installed > > How could I go wrong for $25? ?They have another one if anybody wants it > (Surplusgizmos.com) I looked at those, however I thought $25 to be high. Didn't think of keyboard rot. I had so many go through my hands in the 1990s. The ones I saw commonly had hardcards. I thought they were hard to work on...although you could work on them. If you do figure out how to get it on the internet I would be curious. Please post the results here. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:56:55 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 05:56:55 -0300 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? References: , , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com>, , <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: <1a9d01cb66c9$69db23e0$cf9858bb@portajara> >I did better than that, took its cover off. Gave those platters a spin. >Formatted just fine too. Lets see how long it lasts. Usually works for years :) But I wouldn't trust my precious data to that :) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 8 05:09:48 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:09:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Burroughs used those old Sprague "bumblebees". Many of the capacitors Ah, like the Wima Tropydur (called "Backpflaume" here, i.e. prune). Used mainly in consumer electronics during the 50s. Christian From alexander.voropay at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:40:55 2010 From: alexander.voropay at gmail.com (Alexander Voropay) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:40:55 +0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 Message-ID: JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 08:57:49 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:57:49 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > But with many colors and 120Hz? > > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. > > Tektronix already had 180hz crt's for the head-mounted VR displays in the usaf flight sims 20 yrs ago, EX100HD. It was only 1", specifically for VR systems, but still fast enough. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 08:59:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 07:59:25 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:23:08 -0700. <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAE8E9C.6040400 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. > Actually, it is. No, it isn't. The part you didn't quote is where the other poster was saying "apply increasing voltage gradually". That's what you do when you reform a cap. Its *not* what happens when you turn on the power. Otherwise people wouldn't need reforming circuits. > The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't > powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something > powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when > you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it > is supposed to be. I'd like to see some data/research that supports this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 8 09:20:40 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:20:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: > JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus machine with MC68020 ;-)) Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:25:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 07:25:21 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > ---snip--- > > > Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? > > The oil caps actually were paper, but the oil soaked the paper > through. Plain paper capacitors generally had no oil. > > -- Hi When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. I used to open evering up. I'd unroll transformers, smash tubes to see what was on the inside. I probably have more PCB's in my system than the average. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:53:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:53:09 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Tektronix already had 180hz crt's for the head-mounted VR displays in the > usaf flight sims 20 yrs ago, EX100HD. It was only 1", specifically for VR > systems, but still fast enough. Driving a 1" CRT is child's play compared to driving a real tube. Still, I bet it was an impressive system. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:56:00 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:56:00 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ?When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every > paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. Probably wax. Which, yes, I suppose is kind of like oil. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 10:08:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 08:08:48 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CAED190.14900.10A0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 7:25, dwight elvey wrote: > When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every > paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. > I used to open evering up. I'd unroll transformers, smash > tubes to see what was on the inside. That's my recollection, also. It does make sense. Haven't seen a coated-in-wax capacitor for quite some time. How are old 40s-50s "bathtub" capacitors holding up? Moving on, I'm seeing capacitors that I never considered to be perishable dying, such as polystyrene ones used in AC line filters during the 1980s. I've replaced those with polypropylene units, but is there a better substitute (since polystyrene caps haven't been made for some time)? --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 10:32:22 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395304.70134.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Capacitors do age. And they age badly. That is no myth. In the world of those of us that collect CRT based devices, failing/limping electrolytic capacitors are a very common occurrence. I can't even begin to guess how many electrolytics I've replaced in terminals, monitors, and television sets. But, in these cases, small value electrolytics, the primary mode of failure is electrolyte loss. Your typical aluminum electrolytic is composed of two strips of aluminum foil - one side of one of these is coated in aluminum oxide. They're separated by an electrolyte soaked paper, and rolled up into a little can. The whole thing is "sealed" with a rubber plug crimped into the bottom. Over time, the seal is comporomized, and the electrolyte starts to deteriorate and evaporate, or sometimes leak out the bottom. If anything, use and heat will accellerate this. Since the electrolyte (which acts as part of one of the plates), starts to go away, the cap no longer works as it should, and the oxide layer starts to break down. Unroll a faulty thirty year old electrolytic, as well as a modern, still-good one. Compare. The older one will have a noticeably drier paper layer, and sometimes you'll see discolored marks on the oxide layer that look like pinholes. When a cap gets like that, no amount of "reforming" can bring back lost electrolyte. The ONLY time a capacitor can possibly reform, is if it is a high grade part, thoroughly sealed, and has not lost it's magic goo. The larger caps - large B+ filters, power supply filters, etc. Do seem to last longer, but I'm starting to see more and more of them failing in monitors. In Atari video games, a well known failure is the large (28,000uf, IIRC) power supply filter on the transformer block - affectionately known as the "big blue". This cap ages badly and fails often, and this is probably largely due to the fact that I'm sure Atari didn't buy the greatest parts in the world, coupled with the poor storage conditions most games faced. But, again, similar story - evaporated/destroyed electrolyte and damaged oxide layer. -Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 8 12:47:26 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:47:26 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:21 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: > > JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU > > I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus > machine with MC68020 ;-)) > > Christian DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. I've done some research on this card and learned that it was a coprocessor system that enabled multiple CP/M sessions on a Unibus machine, most often a VAX with a Unibus cabinet. It has four full and distinct Z80 microcomputers on the board - processor and 64k RAM each. I suspect the 2901s are microcoded 'glue logic' to support the emulation of disk and peripherals. It's going to be fun to see if I can reverse-engineer this to the point that I can load and run code on the Z80s! -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 12:55:01 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:55:01 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> >> On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. >> Actually, it is. > No, it isn't. The part you didn't quote is where the other poster was > saying "apply increasing voltage gradually". That's what you do when > you reform a cap. Its *not* what happens when you turn on the power. > Otherwise people wouldn't need reforming circuits. > The specific context was a device that's been powered off a relatively short time. The oxide has only deteriorated a small amount, and not to less than the working voltage. Powering it up, at the working voltage, will do some reformation, and will no damage the capacitor. I never said that this procedure was applicable to capacitors that had been powered off for a long time; in fact, I think I specifically said otherwise. I described a different procedure for capacitors that haven't been powered for a long time, which involved limiting the current into the capacitor. Limiting the current has the effect of not allowing the voltage to increase beyond what the capacitor can handle (assuming that you chose the current limit appropriately). This is actually much better than ramping the voltage at a constant rate, because the capacitor make take longer for reformation during some points in the process than during others. We saw that with some capacitors in the PDP-1. Despite that, it is still the case that reformation is what is occuring in both scenarios, which is what I replied "actually, it is" to in the quote above. It is the same electro-chemical process; you seemed to be claiming that it was not. Eric From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 8 13:43:40 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 18:43:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... Alexey From evan at snarc.net Fri Oct 8 14:03:55 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:03:55 -0400 Subject: Ted Nelson autobiography Message-ID: <4CAF6B1B.8000905@snarc.net> New book .... Ted N.'s autobiography .... *http://tinyurl.com/23ewehv* From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:22:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:22:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Oct 7, 10 09:05:54 pm Message-ID: > Some weird blinking cursor on power on=2C then a 1701 error=2C and it hits = > the floppy disk. > Aha=2C its already got a Hardcard inside! IIRC, 1701 is a hard disk problem. > I open it up=2C and I feel no mechanical motion or hear any sound=2C the dr= > ive does feel warm=2C so darn it=2C its locked up. I assume the drive spindle is not accesible outside the HDA. If it is, try giving it a tweak (but don;t blame me if it rips the heads off ;-)) > And the connector is proprietary=2C takes the flex straight to the drive. = > I see electronics that look like a data separator=2C some tweakable caps=2C= > so the HardcardPlus boards are not even MFM type interfaces. Where is this data separator (on which end of the interface cable? With an ST412 MFM set-up, I'd expect the data separator to be on the controller board. The drive really is dumb... > Next problem=2C this is the keytronics capacitive keyboard=2C and it has th= > e foam rot problem=2C I have some dead keys. I read you can use double sid= > ed foam tape=2C stick the Mylar circles on it and fix these keyboards. I've seen those 'contacts' on E-bay.... If it's just the foam, then yes you can mend them with bfoam tape. But I've seen one Keytronics keyboard where the foam was fine but the metalisation had disapperaed. I have no idea how that happeend... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 12:58:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 18:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 7, 10 01:40:56 pm Message-ID: > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > > Easy. > You take a DB25, and remove pins > 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 Why those pins? Removing 1, 9..19, 21, 23..25 would leave me the pins for the RS232 signals that appear on a PC/AT serial port (DE9). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:01:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:01:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 7, 10 02:55:42 pm Message-ID: > > I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. > > Well, isn't the answer just what we always do? > Replace the caps and try again? Err, no. I prefer to make masurements, work out what is wrong and _then_ replace components. The problem might not be PSU-related at all. A check with a voltmeter (or prefereably a 'scope to check for ripple) will settle that, though. And if it is a PSU problem, it needn't be capacitor-related. Of course I've replaced capacitors in classic computers, but they don't seem to fail as often as some people like to believe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:15:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:15:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 7, 10 07:22:31 pm Message-ID: > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. I am going to assuime that the scan lines are in the horizontal direction as they usually are (but no always, I have worked on at least one display system that scanned vertically!). So the vertical deflection is the slower one. Yhe vertical rate, horizontal rate and number of lines are all related. The main problems are (a) the video bandwidth (determines, essentially, the total number of pixels displayable in a given time) and the horizontal scan rate. Increasing the vertical rate from 60Hz to 120Hz is fairly easy if you don't mind halving the number of lines. This keeps the horizontal scan rate and the video bandwidth essentially unchanged. So as there are 1024 line 60Hz systems around 30 or more years ago, there couild easily have been 512 line 120Hz units. I wonder about electrostaticeally-deflected CRTs. The main disadvantage is that you gnerally have a much smaller deflection angle than with electromagnetic ones, leading to long CRT (base to sreen) for a given screen size. But driving them fast is considerably easier than driving deflection coils fast. Doesn't help with the video bandwidth, I guess. -tony From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Oct 8 14:17:34 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:17:34 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> On 10/07/2010 06:31 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> Getting old sucks. > > It beats the alternative, though... Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just that the effect is a bit more troubling. Barry From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 14:44:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:30 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 18:43, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? > Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All > google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how > it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if > you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... A Sprague brand for hermetically-sealed metal-jacketed oil-in-paper capacitors. Considered to be magic by the guitar folks; but then, so are polystyrene capacitors. My exposure to them was mostly on military equipment. The jacket is steel, so if one explodes, you do get some nasty shrapnel. It happened to me with a rather large one and might have cost me parts of my physiognomy if it had occurred just a few seconds earlier. What was left embedded in the acoustic tile above my bench was an ugly corkscrew of steel. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 14:44:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:38 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> Barry wrote: > Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just > that the effect is a bit more troubling. I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Oct 8 14:53:18 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com>, <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:30 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > > On 8 Oct 2010 at 18:43, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> >> So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? >> Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All >> google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how >> it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if >> you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... > > A Sprague brand for hermetically-sealed metal-jacketed oil-in-paper > capacitors. Considered to be magic by the guitar folks; but then, so > are polystyrene capacitors. > > My exposure to them was mostly on military equipment. The jacket is > steel, so if one explodes, you do get some nasty shrapnel. It > happened to me with a rather large one and might have cost me parts > of my physiognomy if it had occurred just a few seconds earlier. > What was left embedded in the acoustic tile above my bench was an > ugly corkscrew of steel. > > --Chuck > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB Peter Wallace From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 14:53:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:53:29 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:55:01 -0700. <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAF5AF5.8030501 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > The specific context was a device that's been powered off a relatively > short time. [...] > > I described a different procedure for capacitors that haven't been > powered for a long time, which involved limiting the current into the > capacitor. [...] OK, I see what you're saying now. However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing the capacitors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 15:02:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 16:02:44 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Increasing the vertical rate from 60Hz to 120Hz is fairly easy if you > don't mind halving the number of lines. This keeps the horizontal scan > rate and the video bandwidth essentially unchanged. So as there are 1024 > line 60Hz systems around 30 or more years ago, there couild easily have > been 512 line 120Hz units. But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 15:09:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:09:55 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAF1823.2496.1245102@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 12:53, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB Noted. But transformers and capacitors containing PCB were commonly known as containing "oil". I had never heard of PCB until the 1980s. So "paper in oil" is at least correct in the colloquial sense of the word. --Chuck From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Oct 8 15:20:03 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 16:20:03 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> On 10/08/2010 03:44 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Barry wrote: >> Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just >> that the effect is a bit more troubling. > I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. But it does eliminate any possibility of "aging gracefully." From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 8 15:30:23 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <523402.88690.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> lol! ________________________________ From: Barry L. Kline To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 3:20:03 PM Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim On 10/08/2010 03:44 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Barry wrote: >> Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just >> that the effect is a bit more troubling. > I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. But it does eliminate any possibility of "aging gracefully." From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 8 15:56:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 13:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. It was?? Sorry. I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on binocular fusion! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 16:12:24 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:12:24 -0600 Subject: Ted Nelson autobiography In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:03:55 -0400. <4CAF6B1B.8000905@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4CAF6B1B.8000905 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > New book .... Ted N.'s autobiography .... *http://tinyurl.com/23ewehv* Just browsing through the preview and my first impression is: Man, Ted is really in love with himself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 8 16:16:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, 1701 is a hard disk problem. That is correct > I assume the drive spindle is not accesible outside the HDA. If it is, > try giving it a tweak (but don;t blame me if it rips the heads off ;-)) Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the "stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a circular arc. Which model Compaq luggable is this? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 8 16:30:27 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:30:27 -0400 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: >Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the >"stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a >circular arc. Hold the card in your hand so that a twisting motion of your wrist is in line with center of the platter. So that a sharp twist of your wrist and sudden stop will causes the platter to try continue spinning and break free. Sometimes it is head stiction and some times it is thickening bearing grease. Warming the drive to about 90f has helped the grease problem, but do not cook it! back under my rock :) Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 19:52:41 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:52:41 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing > the capacitors. Yes, replacing capacitors is generally easy than reforming them. The main reasons to reform them instead are: 1) If you're trying to preserve an historical artifact 2) If you can't easily or inexpensively get a replacement with comparable specifications. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Oct 8 20:59:42 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 21:59:42 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> On 10/08/2010 08:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Richard wrote: >> However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing >> the capacitors. > Yes, replacing capacitors is generally easy than reforming them. The > main reasons to reform them instead are: > > 1) If you're trying to preserve an historical artifact > 2) If you can't easily or inexpensively get a replacement with > comparable specifications. > > New capacitors are not "more reliable" than the old until infant mortality is accounted for. Also newer parts may exhibit lower ESR than originals did when new with undesired side effects. the two major failures of electrolytic capacitors are shorted, open (usually dried out). The former is easy to spot. The latter is also easy as the capacitance will be low and they don't form up and there may be evidence of the pressure plug blown or residues indicating leakage The third problem high ESR is also easily checked and weeded out. Life is easier as most of the systems of that generation were linear types and likely had generous margins. Myself I'd not have worried the caps near as much as the transistors used. Some parts then had terrible spec drift over time (germanium). My experience with HV supplies and tube radios/transceivers in the same era is if the caps form they are good. However, resistors used then were not as stable, and some of the caps used for lower values in the .001 to 1uf range were far more suspect. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 21:29:32 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 19:29:32 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> References: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CAFD38C.9020006@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > > Myself I'd not have worried the caps near as much as the transistors > used. Some parts then had > terrible spec drift over time (germanium). We weren't too worried about transistors in the logic, as they weren't likely to cause a great deal of damage if they failed. And we weren't worried about transistors in the power supplies, because there weren't any. Most of the PDP-1 power supplies just use ferroresonant transformers with diodes for rectification and big electrolytic capacitors for filtering. We checked the capacitors out of circuit, and we checked the power supplies (with dummy loads) before we ever powered up the PDP-1 with them. We did find one diode in one power supply that had failed shorted. The deflection and HV power supplies for the Type 30G display did contain active circuitry including transistors, and as with the logic power supplies, we tested them before powering up the 30G. We did find some serious issues with these power supplies. The power supply for the photomultiplier tube used by the fiber-optic light pen had also gone bad. The fault was in the transformer, inside a potted assembly. We have temporarily replaced that power supply with a new commercial power supply module, but we might rebuild the original in the future. The most serious fault we found in the machine was that the power control for the Type 30G display was wired *completely* wrong, such that turning it on put line voltage across a closed vane switch intended to sense when the fans were up to speed. This resulted in very high current through the vane switch, well beyond its rating, causing it to weld itself closed, and trip the circuit breaker. It appeared to us that someone had tried to kludge the power control to fix some problem, and failed utterly. We believe that the demos of the PDP-1 system at the Computer Museum in Boston must have been done without the use of the power control, with the power supplies just plugged directly into an outlet strip or the like, since the power control could not possibly have worked. We rewired the power control to match the engineering drawing and replaced the vane switch, and then the power control worked correctly. We know that the deflection power supply for the Type 30 display was missing entirely in Boston; in photos of the demo there it is clearly missing and a bench power supply can be seen. The proper deflection supply for the Type 30 was a product of a third party, rather than being made by DEC. Fortunately CHM had another Type 30 with that power supply, though it was non-functional until we reverse-engineered and repaired it. Throughout the restoration process, and to this day, the team has taken great care to avoid situations where substantial damage could occur to the artifact. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 8 22:43:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:43:31 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> On 10/8/10 1:47 PM, Ian King wrote: > DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. Don't forget the 8008 (no typo there) on the KY11-LB, the "programmers' front panel" control board for the PDP-11/04 and 11/34. I don't have one in front of me, but isn't there an 80186 on the TQK50? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Oct 8 23:01:20 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:01:20 -0500 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> References: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CAFE910.2050103@vaxen.net> On 10/8/10 10:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/8/10 1:47 PM, Ian King wrote: >> DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to >> emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. > > Don't forget the 8008 (no typo there) on the KY11-LB, the "programmers' > front panel" control board for the PDP-11/04 and 11/34. > > I don't have one in front of me, but isn't there an 80186 on the TQK50? If memory serves, a lot of the EIDE drives have 80186 on the controller board. I've been told that the '186 made a much better microcontroller than microprocessor. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 23:45:48 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:45:48 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. > > It was?? > Sorry. > > I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" > using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that > your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. > BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on > binocular fusion! Wow! How? Using a display capable of rendering actual depth? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 9 00:17:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 22:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> > > I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" > > using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that > > your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high > resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. 20 years ago, there WERE CAD displays (B&W) of megapixel as 120Hz. Highest resolution that _I_ could afford at the time, on PC, was 1280 x 800, which was well short of a megapixel. (B&W Amdek 1280, with proprietary video board, but did have drivers for Windows 3.00, Ventura, Paintbrush, etc. By the time that Windows 3.10 came out (fall 1991), support was already crumbling) > > BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on > > binocular fusion! > Wow! How? Using a display capable of rendering actual depth? I warned you that it was CRUDE, . . . You looked into a dark cabinet, in which there was a moving mirror, reflecting a CRT. The image would change according to the position of the mirror. When it was moving fast enough, persistence of vision would give you a visual image in which parts of the image were actually different distances! I think that the images were chosen for maximum suitability. I never saw a commercial implementation attempt. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 00:17:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:17:37 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB No, it is relatively harmless mineral oil. Sprague PCB caps were something else, and I am far too tired right now to look it up in my catalogs. -- Will From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Oct 9 00:43:01 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 22:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <294276.28903.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Wow!? How?? Using a display capable of > rendering actual depth? > > I warned you that it was CRUDE, . . . > You looked into a dark cabinet, in which there was a moving > mirror, > reflecting a CRT.? The image would change according to > the position of the > mirror.? When it was moving fast enough, persistence > of vision would give > you a visual image in which parts of the image were > actually different > distances!???I think that the images were > chosen for maximum suitability. > I never saw a commercial implementation attempt. I once saw a product announcement for a commercial 3D display that used a flexible varifocal mirror. If you've ever seen one of those things that makes a coin inside appear to be floating in space just inside an opening at the top, you've seen how a concave mirror can manipulate apparent depth. From the diagrams/photos, it looked like the device used the acoustic wave from a hi-fi speaker to drive the mirror. The image was provided by a vector display, limited to wire-frame graphics, and there was likely some electronics or software to compensate for the distortion introduced by the optics. It was a big box, somewhat reminiscent of both a radar console and an arcade game. If I recall correctly, the tube was mounted overhead, and you looked down into the mirror at its reflection. --Bill From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 01:12:45 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:12:45 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net>, <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob, Int the thread below, I said I already opened her up, manually gave the platters a spin. The drive is working fine and fun to watch the head seeks. Of course, not to trust it but for experiments. I found CPM86 but not much else on the web, do you guys know where a live site of old applications still exist? It looks like most of my favorite archives have been taken down. I should have grabbed the stuff while I saw it, but that was before I had a machine... Randy > From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 17:30:27 -0400 > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > > >Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the > >"stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a > >circular arc. > > Hold the card in your hand so that a twisting motion of your wrist is in line with center of the platter. > So that a sharp twist of your wrist and sudden stop will causes the platter to try continue spinning and break free. > Sometimes it is head stiction and some times it is thickening bearing grease. > > Warming the drive to about 90f has helped the grease problem, but do not cook it! > > back under my rock :) > > Bob > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 9 03:30:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 04:30:26 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CB02822.2060304@neurotica.com> On 10/9/10 1:17 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high >> resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. > > 20 years ago, there WERE CAD displays (B&W) of megapixel as 120Hz. > > Highest resolution that _I_ could afford at the time, on PC, was 1280 x > 800, which was well short of a megapixel. (B&W Amdek 1280, with > proprietary video board, but did have drivers for Windows 3.00, Ventura, > Paintbrush, etc. By the time that Windows 3.10 came out (fall 1991), > support was already crumbling) I installed a few dozen Moniterm Viking display subsystems in PCs in the desktop publishing world twenty years ago. They were 1280x960, and had drivers for Ventura. I don't ever recall setting up Windows on one, but then 3.0 didn't come out until 1990 I think, and that was toward the end of my stretch in that world. I don't remember what their refresh rate was. They sure were gorgeous, though. Paper white, razor sharp displays...the small newspaper world loved them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Oct 8 10:30:59 2010 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:30:59 +0200 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 08.10.2010 17:28, schrieb Holger Veit: > Am 08.10.2010 16:20, schrieb Christian Corti: >> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: >>> JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU >> >> I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus >> machine with MC68020 ;-)) >> >> Christian > > PCS Cadmus, right? > > Regards > Holger From ohh at panix.com Fri Oct 8 10:08:23 2010 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 11:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't >> powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something >> powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when >> you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it >> is supposed to be. > > I'd like to see some data/research that supports this. Well, this doesn't specifically mention the "exponential decay effect", but will this help?: http://electrochem.cwru.edu/encycl/art-c04-electr-cap.htm "[...] the capacitor "fill" electrolyte continues the healing work of the original forming electrolyte, repairing and thickening the dielectric locally as required. This healing process is driven by the capacitor's dc leakage current, which is drawn whenever a dc voltage is applied to the capacitor, that is, whenever it is in operation. In fact, electrolytic capacitors often last longer when they are in continuous, mild use that when they are only charged up briefly every year or decade." Feel free to read the entire article if you like, and/or check out some of the links towards the bottom. (I found the Cornell Dubilier article in "Further reading" particularly helpful to me when I needed a good general overview, but alas the link is broken. It's still on the CDE site, though, at www.cde.com/catalogs/AEappGUIDE.pdf .) -O.- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 08:15:34 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:15:34 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> I tried changing to DK0 to DK100 but it made no difference and to be honest I did not expect it to make a difference. Clearly there is something wrong with recognising partitions on sdb (DKA200). If I boot off DK100, which is running Debian 3.1 (Kernel 2.4 it seems) it can see sdb3 just fine. I don't get all the boot logging that I get from the corrupted disk though. It would be nice to see what is going on during a good boot on the temporary disk, how do I turn on boot logging? I tried adding "debug loglevel=7" to the boot command but nothing extra was printed. I also thought I would try pointing the temporary disk's kernel at sdb3 like this: b vmlinuz ro initrd=/initrd.img root=/dev/sdb3 But the boot just appeared to hang. I am guessing that it does not help that the corrupted instance uses 2.6.26 kernel and the temporary kernel is 2.4. Sorry but I am not very expert on Linux. I am confused by the fact that it seems to fail to mount sdb3 when booting off sdb3, but succeeds in booting off sda and then reading sdb3. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet installed > on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power outage the > superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another instance > of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to fix it. > However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it can't find > /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without > issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. > There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a > working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > any insight as to why this will still not boot? > > Thanks > > Rob > > aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 > aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at 0xfffffc0013d70000 > aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments ro > root=/d > ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu > [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) > (waldi at de > bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) #1 Sat > Jan > 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 > [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from > SRM > [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ > [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 > [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 > [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) > [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) > [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. Total > pag > es: 40679 > [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) > [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz > [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 > [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console > [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 > (order: 6, 524288 > bytes) > [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 262144 > bytes) > [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, > 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security Framework > initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized [4194003.650520] > Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] Initializing cgroup > subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct > [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices [4194003.877082] > net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol > family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: passed > tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o read test > [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test [4194004.199348] > pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd available) > [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: > tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of SRM > state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 > [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff > [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff > [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000- > 0x00000000091fffff > [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay > [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP route > cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 > bytes) > [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, 262144 > byt > es) > [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 bytes) > [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind 16384) > [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered > protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... it is > [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] VFS: > Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: > 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 > [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 loaded > (major > 253) > [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io scheduler > anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline registered > [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) [4194006.918097] > isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... > > [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] > Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g enabled > [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A > [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A > [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: i8042 KBD port > at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 > [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice > [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic > registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 > [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] > drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) [4194008.275518] > Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI subsystem > initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI bus 1, dev 9 > [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS [4194012.454227] scsi0 : QLogic > QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter > [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 > [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type methods > [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W > 6415 > PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 > /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, Wide, Tagg > ed queuing: depth 31 > /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 > 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > MB) > [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.223755] sd > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > enabled, s > upports DPO and FUA > [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > MB) > [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.482544] sd > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > enabled, s > upports DPO and FUA > [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] > Attached SCSI disk > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device > /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. > /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device > /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. > /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill > init! > : missing operand after `b' > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... > /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem as the > ro > ot: Success From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 08:27:35 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:27:35 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00c601cb67b5$bfeccda0$3fc668e0$@ntlworld.com> I tried this and I did not get to a shell. I can examine the files in /etc from the OS on the spare disk, but I am not expert enough to work out where to really look. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: 05 October 2010 16:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > You might try "init=/bin/sh" to keep any init scripts from running. That way > you can piece together what it's trying to do, tracing from /etc/inittab > > Those errors look like the kernel is up but some init script is unhappy. > > -brad > > On Oct 3, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That > > particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in > > > > Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a > > disk at > > DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to > > make way for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian > > on. So when the machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on > > DKA200. Now I have the temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" > Debian on DKA200. > > > > I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which > > won't be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back > > in so I have > > DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > >> Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > >> > >> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > >>> installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > >>> power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > >>> install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p > >>> on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the > >>> original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new > >>> instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is > >>> the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message > >>> about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working > >>> system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > >>> any insight as to why this will still not boot? > >> > >> The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling > >> the > > first disk > >> (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? > >> > >> Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. > >> > >> Pat > >> -- > >> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > >> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > > Brad Parker > Heeltoe Consulting > 781-483-3101 > http://www.heeltoe.com > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 9 08:35:05 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 06:35:05 -0700 Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright is Destroying Historic Audio Message-ID: <4CB06F89.2010608@bitsavers.org> http://www.osnews.com/story/23888/US_Library_of_Congress_Copyright_Is_Destroying_Historic_Audio From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 9 09:16:00 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:16:00 -0400 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: [[ snippity ]] > Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... [[ snippity ]] > It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure > of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. > > It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the > closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of > playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the > luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated > Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines > for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, > instability, slowness, etc. > > It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to > the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& > the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an > interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop > - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern > native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display > environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only > terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see > such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented > 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the webpage for it: http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list of Windows OSs it runs on: """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it looks interesting: http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of spare time that I'm just now recovering from. Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 9 09:18:18 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:17:37 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > >> VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB > > No, it is relatively harmless mineral oil. Sprague PCB caps were > something else, and I am far too tired right now to look it up in my > catalogs. > > -- > Will > Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ capacitors that definately contained PCBs Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 10:06:19 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:06:19 +0100 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> References: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> Message-ID: On 9 October 2010 15:16, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > [[ snippity ]] > >> Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... > > [[ snippity ]] > >> It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure >> of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. >> >> It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the >> closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of >> playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the >> luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated >> Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines >> for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, >> instability, slowness, etc. >> >> It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to >> the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& >> the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an >> interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop >> - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern >> native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display >> environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only >> terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see >> such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented >> 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. > > Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but > more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. > > The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around > the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in > Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax > highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows > system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble > your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct > parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual > machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. > > The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you > did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily > add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to > encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the > webpage for it: > > http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide > > It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as > possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list > of Windows OSs it runs on: > > """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for > Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ > > (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the > option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you > can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) > > > The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and > with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say > it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to > help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for > the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it > looks interesting: > > http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide > > The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy > himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a > testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I > purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of > 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of > spare time that I'm just now recovering from. > > Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Hey, cool, thanks for the link - I shall take a look. I never had much experience with the American 8-bit models - most of them were seriously expensive over here in the UK, at least until relatively late in the '80s when they were being replaced by the 16-bitters. (So instead we got relatively expensive American 16-bitters. :?/ ) Myself, I held fire and waited a bit then bought a much-much-more-bang-for-the-buck British 32-bitter, which for the price of an Amiga 1200 with a 2nd floppy drive gave me a 32-bit machine with a 20MB hard disk and a monitor. I guess the other 8-bit machines I'd like to play with this way would be a SAM Coup?, Timex-Sinclair 2068 and BBC Micro... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 12:51:56 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 18:51:56 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00cc01cb67da$abb1f890$0315e9b0$@ntlworld.com> One more interesting fact. I got a Debian 5.06 install CD and tried that. It could not detect the CD-ROM drive, but I let it drop to a shell. In there it could see /dev/sda3, but not /dev/sdb3, in fact there were no /dev /sdb* files at all. So it would appear not to recognise the drive at all. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 09 October 2010 14:16 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > I tried changing to DK0 to DK100 but it made no difference and to be honest I > did not expect it to make a difference. > > Clearly there is something wrong with recognising partitions on sdb > (DKA200). If I boot off DK100, which is running Debian 3.1 (Kernel 2.4 it > seems) it can see sdb3 just fine. I don't get all the boot logging that I get from > the corrupted disk though. It would be nice to see what is going on during a > good boot on the temporary disk, how do I turn on boot logging? I tried > adding "debug loglevel=7" to the boot command but nothing extra was > printed. > > I also thought I would try pointing the temporary disk's kernel at sdb3 like > this: > > b vmlinuz ro initrd=/initrd.img root=/dev/sdb3 > > But the boot just appeared to hang. I am guessing that it does not help that > the corrupted instance uses 2.6.26 kernel and the temporary kernel is 2.4. > > Sorry but I am not very expert on Linux. I am confused by the fact that it > seems to fail to mount sdb3 when booting off sdb3, but succeeds in booting > off sda and then reading sdb3. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:04 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > installed > > on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power > > outage > the > > superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another > > instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to > fix it. > > However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it > > can't > find > > /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk > > without issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. > > There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this > > was > a > > working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone > > offer any insight as to why this will still not boot? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > > aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > > aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 > > aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at > > 0xfffffc0013d70000 > > aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments > > ro root=/d > > ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu > > [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) > > (waldi at de > > bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) > > #1 > Sat > > Jan > > 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 > > [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from > > SRM > > [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ > > [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 > > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 > > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 > > [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 > > [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) > > [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) > > [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. > Total > > pag > > es: 40679 > > [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 > console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) > > [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz > > [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 > > [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console > > [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: > > 65536 > > (order: 6, 524288 > > bytes) > > [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, > > 262144 > > bytes) > > [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, > > 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security > Framework > > initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized > > [4194003.650520] Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] > > Initializing cgroup subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup > > subsys cpuacct [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices > > [4194003.877082] > > net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol > > family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: > passed > > tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o > > read > test > > [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test > > [4194004.199348] > > pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd > available) > > [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: > > tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of > > SRM state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 > > [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff > > [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff > > [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000- > > 0x00000000091fffff > > [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay > > [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP > route > > cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 > > bytes) > > [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, > 262144 > > byt > > es) > > [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 > bytes) > > [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind > 16384) > > [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered > > protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... > > it is [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] > VFS: > > Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: > > 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 > > [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 > > loaded (major > > 253) > > [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io > scheduler > > anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline > > registered [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) > > [4194006.918097] > > isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... > > > > [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] > > Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g > > enabled [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a > > 16550A [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a > > 16550A [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: > > i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX > > port at 0x60,0x64 irq > 12 > > [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice > > [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: > > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic > > registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 > > [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] > > drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) > > [4194008.275518] Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed > [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: > > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI > > subsystem initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI > > bus 1, dev 9 [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS > [4194012.454227] scsi0 : > QLogic > > QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter > > [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 > > [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type > methods > > [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W > > 6415 > > PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 > > /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, > Wide, Tagg > > ed queuing: depth 31 > > /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] > > 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > > MB) > > [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off > > [4194018.223755] > sd > > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > > enabled, s > > upports DPO and FUA > > [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors > > (2104 > > MB) > > [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off > > [4194018.482544] > sd > > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > > enabled, s > > upports DPO and FUA > > [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: > [sda] > > Attached SCSI disk > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device > > /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. > > /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' > > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting > > 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device > > /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. > > /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to > > kill init! > > : missing operand after `b' > > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > > mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... > > /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem > > as > the > > ro > > ot: Success From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 9 14:21:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 15:21:40 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com><4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB0C0C4.4080308@neurotica.com> On 10/6/10 1:58 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well at least it's found a good home. Being a DEC man I know little about > IBM systems except 6150 AIX boxes. Ahh, RTs! I have two here, one desktop and one pedestal. I really like those machines for some reason. Like you, I've always been a DEC guy primarily, but over the past few years I've branched out a bit, mainly in the IBM direction. They have some fascinating stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 15:59:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:59:51 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ > capacitors that definately contained PCBs What evidence do you have? It is a very common belief - even the hazmat guys assume so (and every time they have to be shown that they are wrong). Also, I do not think there were Vitamin Qs during World War 2. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 9 16:03:59 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 project scrubbed Message-ID: I'm sorry, but the effort to make a new run of P112 kits has been scrubbed. I was unable to get more than 12 kits presold when I needed at least 35 to go forward and get the boards made. Since I'm so far behind 35, I decided to start the refunds now. Those of you who preordered should be seeing the refunds roll in over the next week as funds get transferred from my bank account to Paypal. This won't be the last of the P112. I hope to be able to do a run a few months after I land a new job. Hopefully I'll have the money to finance the project without the need to take preorders. Thanks for all your faith in me and interest in this project. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 9 16:30:00 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:59:51 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > >> Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ >> capacitors that definately contained PCBs > > What evidence do you have? It is a very common belief - even the > hazmat guys assume so (and every time they have to be shown that they > are wrong). > > Also, I do not think there were Vitamin Qs during World War 2. > > -- > Will > I remember draining bad capacitors when I was quite young (I abused the 600V capacitors by using them for strobe lights charged to 2 KV) And am pretty sure that the Vitamin Q ones were PCB (light green slightly sweet spelling fluid) But is has been many years so I could be wrong. Peter Wallace From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 18:01:52 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:01:52 +1100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal in Australia Message-ID: Cloning JPs request but I'm seeking Twinax terminals in Australia please. Having acquired a clutch of AS/400s, my only true IBM 3197 twinax terminal is dead. If anyone knows the trick about how to open the video section of an IBM 3197 I would be interested in knowing. I removed the two self-thread screws from the bottom which seems to release part of the case but something still holds the top, presumably needs some leverage to unlock. Aside: I was intrigued to see that the logic of the IBM 3197 is powered by an Intel 8088. From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 01:07:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:07:35 -0400 Subject: Monrobot Message-ID: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 01:47:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:47:34 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CB16186.9020703@snarc.net> > Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the > Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on > Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the > company in the 1950s. Found what I was looking for at http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/10504/1/Chinoy_umd_0117E_11395.pdf -- lots of Monrobot company history on pages 226-242 (of the document, not the pdf page numbers). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 12:38:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 18:38:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring Message-ID: Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... In particular : What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 and 5, I think?) What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 and 8? Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the extra polarisation notch). Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... Thanks in advance for any help... -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 10 13:26:13 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:26:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Holger Veit wrote: >>> I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus >>> machine with MC68020 ;-)) >>> >> PCS Cadmus, right? That's right. It would be a nice project to write some RT11 or BSD drivers for the I/O card (SCSI, serial, ethernet) to use the board in a PDP11. But that would involve some reverse engineering of the Munix system. Christian From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Oct 10 13:44:59 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:44:59 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> On 10/10/2010 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. All of the recent(last 10 or 12 years) ethernet standards all use 8-wire RJ45's. They are as strict of RJ45's as they can be. This doesn't imply that all standards require all 8 wires, but they use 8 position contacts, plugs, jacks, standard cabling and so on. > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) Can you help us out what the difference is between POTS and what you are calling normal switched telephone lines? If you are talking about regular telephone service, as delivered in the US over copper, then "public switched telephone network" (PSTN) is equivalent to Plain Old Telephone Service(POTS). The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally black and yellow) The telco's will normally not deliver or install an RJ-45 for regular telephone service --- but there's no reason why they couldn't -- as long as you used compatible cables pinned & paired properly. > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? Well the 4-wire leased circuits I can think of are traditionally 64kbps DDS circuits(a single DS0), or a T1. These also use an RJ45 (although the nomenclature for telcos is usually RJ48 with minor real technical difference and no practical differences), 1&2 and 7&8 on the DDS, and 1&2 and 4&5 on the T1. The telcos will lease what we would call dry-pairs(or sometimes alarm circuits) for connecting two locations together through the CO, with no real service (outside of maintenance) on the circuit itself. > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? I don't have an answer for this. The EIA/TIA has standards called T568A and T568B which specify color pair connects to which pins on the connector. T568B is normally the networking standard, and A is normally telco standard. (these standards switch the green and orange pairs) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T568A#T568A_and_T568B_termination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-carrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pstn Since most popular circuits (all of what you've mentioned and more) use the same pairing(1&2, 3&6, 4&5, 7&8), once you've installed and wired your jacks, patch panels, punch downs, cables this way ---- everything should just work. Which signals travel over which pairs obviously doesn't matter, outside of keeping a consistent premise cabling standards for future A/M/C's. Does this help? Keith From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 13:52:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:52:05 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> I think you're asking about USOC RJ45S, which has nothing to do with network wiring. I've never seen a true one in the wild, but they were used for data hookups, apparently. Perhaps this will help: http://www.suttleonline.com/pdfs/misc/USOC_Guide.pdf and a bit more on programming resistor values: http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/68_502.html --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 14:01:47 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:01:47 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> On 10/10/2010 10:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) Yes, the middle two. > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Also the middle two. > Or a 4-wire one? Not sure about voice service. For a T1 digital line, the pairs would be 1/2 and 7/8. > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? That's to program the transmit power level of the device plugged into the socket. Typically used on leased lines. On a real installation of that type, the resistor value is chosen by the installer to compensate for loop length. > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? I'm not sure specifically about about 3 and 6, but on some jacks there are one or two shorting bars to preserve continuity of a loop when there is no device plugged into the jack. This is used in RJ41X service, typically for alarms, because the alarm system can seize the loop (disconnect it from the downstream phones). When nothing is plugged into the jack, the shorting bar provides loop continuity to the phones. > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > extra polarisation notch). Note that RJxx is a USOC (Uniform Service Ordering Code), and defines the type of service as well as what jack is used: 4-position, 6-position, 8-position, with or without shorting bars, how it is wired, etc. While an RJ45 service uses an 8-position jack, an 8-position jack is not in and of itself an RJ45, despite everyone misusing the USOC code in that way. An 8-position jack could also be used for RJ31X service, RJ41X, RJ48C, RJ48S, RJ48X, RJ61X, etc. Similarly, a 6-position jack may be used by RJ11 service, RJ14 service, or various others. > Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... The same seems to be true here in the US. Oh, there are plenty of books that will tell you how a basic POTS service works, but little beyond that. The real info was in the "Bell System Practice" documents, which were not available to customers, and in Bell standards, which were. After the divestiture, the standards went to Bellcore, which is now Telcordia, and the standards cost a LOT of money. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 14:02:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:02:14 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB1AB46.30613.9EC96A@cclist.sydex.com> I should add that the RJ45S is an 8-position connector in the same size as the ethernet variety RJ45, but it's keyed and so cannot be inserted into an RJ45 ethernet socket. However an RJ45 plug *can* be plugged into an RJ45S socket. --Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 10 14:06:08 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:06:08 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> For $25 it's a steal. I liked the Surplusgizmos site, but I couldn't find the other machine. ;-0 As for what to do ... - The XT-IDE card (details can be found over at the Vintage Computer Forum) allows you to put a modern IDE drive in the machine, which probably cuts down on power consumption and improves your reliability. - A good Ethernet card from the era (3COM 3C503, NE1000, or other well known 8 bit cards) will get you 'online' in a limited way. I have written DHCP, Telnet, FTP, and IRC clients that run on machines of that vintage. Also available are netcat, PING, and SNTP (Simple Network Time Protocol). Details over at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . I wouldn't invest too much time into a DOS based web browser - if they run they are horribly disappointing. Mike From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Oct 10 14:14:05 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic Message-ID: Greetings; I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 and in the Core section it mentions that the logic is "VTL and Dutchess". TTL, ECL, CMOS sure... but I've never heard of VTL or Dutchess, and Google doesn't seem to be providing (although forest/trees problem exists). Is this just another footnote in our history, does it go by another name, or am I missing something important here? Thanks all; - JP From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 14:18:36 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:18:36 -0700 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 and in > the Core section it mentions that the logic is "VTL and Dutchess". TTL, > ECL, CMOS sure... but I've never heard of VTL or Dutchess, and Google > doesn't seem to be providing (although forest/trees problem exists). > > Is this just another footnote in our history, does it go by another name, > or am I missing something important here? As with most everything IBM did in that era, they invented it themselves, so no one else used it, and there is little or no documentation. I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically compatible with normal 5V TTL. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 14:55:28 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:55:28 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB21A30.2050900@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. > > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > In particular : > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) > > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > extra polarisation notch). > > Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... > > Thanks in advance for any help... Try: http://www.hvs.on.ca/telecom/technologies Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:00:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:00:00 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> References: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CB21B40.10306@gmail.com> Keith wrote: > The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the > next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is > 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally > black and yellow) Well, actually the 6p2c RJ11 has only two wires for one line. The two-line four-wire on a 6p4c is an RJ14. The three-line six-wire 6p6c is RJ25. The four-line eight-wire on an 8p8c (similar to RJ45) is RJ61. I *think* that Tony was originally referring to the RJ48S or RJ45S. The pinouts are on the page I gave him before: http://www.hvs.on.ca/telecom/technologies Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:03:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:03:10 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of > bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically > compatible with normal 5V TTL. IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the hell out of everything. The trick is finding the documentation, and sometimes it can cost a goodly chunk of change. Peace... Sridhar From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:25:30 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:25:30 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> References: , <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, These guys probably don't update or even pay attention to their web page; I'm not surprised the other machine is not listed. Its a walk-in retail store. Mike Carter is the head honcho, you can email him from the site links if you want it, or I can go get it for you. My adoration for this machine comes from its origin - I knew Rod Canion and sold him and 'Gateway Technologies' a Data I/O Model 29 EPROM programmer. I was the Data I/O rep in Houston at the time, when they were leaving TI and forming Compaq. No doubts they used it to read the IBM PC ROMS and write their own BIOS. Everybody is aware of the cleanroom story, the guys who read the ROM were not permitted to write the compatable BIOS, but only write the specification for it, to pass on to other S/W engineers. Another story I recall is that some IBM applications were dependent on a search for the the text string "Copyright IBM" in the ROM, so Compaq had "None of this code is copyright IBM" in their ROM. Spoofing the applications.... Today I am cutting out little circles of the key capacitive plates, and double sided tape backing. Hope to get the keyboard foam rot problem fixed on this machine. Randy > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:06:08 -0500 > From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com > To: > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > > For $25 it's a steal. I liked the Surplusgizmos site, but I couldn't > find the other machine. ;-0 > > As for what to do ... > > - The XT-IDE card (details can be found over at the Vintage Computer > Forum) allows you to put a modern IDE drive in the machine, which > probably cuts down on power consumption and improves your reliability. > > > - A good Ethernet card from the era (3COM 3C503, NE1000, or other well > known 8 bit cards) will get you 'online' in a limited way. I have > written DHCP, Telnet, FTP, and IRC clients that run on machines of that > vintage. Also available are netcat, PING, and SNTP (Simple Network Time > Protocol). Details over at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . I wouldn't > invest too much time into a DOS based web browser - if they run they are > horribly disappointing. > > > Mike > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:35:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:35:43 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: Coincidentally, this weekend a friend found a couple of Monrobot logic modules at a hamfest - but all the components had been stripped out, leaving only a skeleton. Nice tags, however. They look a bit like single tube IBM modules. And coincidentally to that, the same hamfest yielded a pair of IBM marked solid state replacement modules for 6AL5 tubes. The part number is in the 440000s, so they are likely from the mid 1960s. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:41:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:41:20 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> References: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: > IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the hell > out of everything. ?The trick is finding the documentation, and sometimes it > can cost a goodly chunk of change. The other mainframe makers were the same. So save every page, people... -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:42:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:42:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 10, 10 12:01:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/10/2010 10:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > > and 5, I think?) > Yes, the middle two. > > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? > Also the middle two. > > Or a 4-wire one? > Not sure about voice service. For a T1 digital line, the pairs would be > 1/2 and 7/8. Ah, now that makes a lot of sense... I appears that one signal (presumably either a 'bidrectional' one for 2-wire use or one half of the 4 wire set-up can be switched to either pins 4,5 or 1,2. Pins 7.8 seem to be either the resistor I mentioend, or not used, or another signal pair, I would guess at the other half of the 4-wire set-up. You don't happen to know which pair is Txand which is Rx, do you? > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > > and 8? > That's to program the transmit power level of the device plugged into > the socket. Typically used on leased lines. On a real installation of Again, that makes sense. Such a resistor can be connected by a relay, presumably for testing leased-line modems. I assume (and will know more when I get this thing working) it will check the transmit level is what it should be given that resistor value. > that type, the resistor value is chosen by the installer to compensate > for loop length. > > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > I'm not sure specifically about about 3 and 6, but on some jacks there > are one or two shorting bars to preserve continuity of a loop when there > is no device plugged into the jack. This is used in RJ41X service, > typically for alarms, because the alarm system can seize the loop > (disconnect it from the downstream phones). When nothing is plugged > into the jack, the shorting bar provides loop continuity to the phones. No, it's not that. There's a SPST reed realy (single form A, simple on'off contact) that's wired to pins 3 and 6 on the RJ45. As far as I can see those pins go nowhere else. So there must be some device that expects a short between those pins under some circumstances. > > > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > > extra polarisation notch). > Note that RJxx is a USOC (Uniform Service Ordering Code), and defines > the type of service as well as what jack is used: 4-position, > 6-position, 8-position, with or without shorting bars, how it is wired, etc. Indeed. Henace my comment that the twisted-pair ethernet socket is not strictly an RJ45. It's even mechancially different. However, I suspect this device, being a telecoms tester, with RJ45-like sockets (with the extra groove) will simulate some standard uses of that connector. > The real info was in the "Bell System Practice" documents, which were > not available to customers, and in Bell standards, which were. After > the divestiture, the standards went to Bellcore, which is now Telcordia, > and the standards cost a LOT of money. Pity. While I am sure the ofifical standards would be interesting, I doubt they would be worth the money for this... Thanks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:30:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> from "Keith" at Oct 10, 10 02:44:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/10/2010 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. > > All of the recent(last 10 or 12 years) ethernet standards all use 8-wire > RJ45's. They are as strict of RJ45's as they can be. This doesn't IFrom what I've read, I am not convinced they are. They are 8P8C modular connectors. The 'RJ' (Registers Jack) numbers specify a lot more than the connector. Apparently, too, the RJ45 connectore had an extra ridge on the plug and a groove in the socket (jack) to take it. The connectors on the instrument I am working on most certainly have this groove. > imply that all standards require all 8 wires, but they use 8 position > contacts, plugs, jacks, standard cabling and so on. > > > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > > and 5, I think?) > > Can you help us out what the difference is between POTS and what you are > calling normal switched telephone lines? Nothing at all as far as I am aware. OK, perhaps I can give a little more infromation. This is a telephone line simualtor instrument. It has a pair of RJ45 sockets on the front for the 2 devices you want to connect together. The 8 contacts of each socket are duplicated by screw terminals on the back. One one of the PCBs inside are a large number of relays (of various types), 9 are associated with each RJ45 connector from what I can tell. Now since the instrument doesn't work yet, and I have no manual, I can't be sure, but it appears from the LED labels on the front panel that this unit can test either normal 2-wire 'switched' devices (it will simulate a PSTN line), or 2 wire 'private' (what we would call a 'leased line' I think) or 4-wire private connections (presumably one pair for the signal in each direction. My guess is that some of the relays select between these modes, and thus it would be useful to know what I should be seeing on the various RJ45 pins in each mode. I say 'some' of the relays, because I've already found one that simply reverses the line 'battery' (supply voltage) polarity, and another that seems to apply a rining voltage. And I'll mention a couple more below. > The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the > next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is > 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally > black and yellow) Yes, I'd read that. And based on that, and some of the relay connections, it would appear that at least one mode uses pins 4 and 5 -- the centre pins -- only. > > The telco's will normally not deliver or install an RJ-45 for regular > telephone service --- but there's no reason why they couldn't -- as long > as you used compatible cables pinned & paired properly. I am not trying to get a telephone line installed... I have something that pretends to be a telepgone line and has an RJ45 connector on the front... > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > > and 8? There is one relay that seems to connect such a resistor. I think I read somewhere that this was an obsolete standard (whcih may well have been current when this thing was made) for high-speed modems. Perhaps the resistor encodes some characteristic of the line. Pins 7 and 8 are used for something else when this relay is not connecting the resistor. Perhaps one half of the 4 wire line. > > > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > > I don't have an answer for this. Again, there's a relay that connects 3 to 6, and as far as I can see, these pins go nohwere else. > The EIA/TIA has standards called T568A and T568B which specify color > pair connects to which pins on the connector. T568B is normally the Yes, I've got those... But knowing how to connect the wires is very different from knowing what the wires might be used for... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:32:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:32:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 10, 10 11:52:05 am Message-ID: > > I think you're asking about USOC RJ45S, which has nothing to do with > network wiring. I've never seen a true one in the wild, but they > were used for data hookups, apparently. It's entirely possible that I am. I will take a look at the URL's you've given and see if they make any sense with the relay connections I've figured out so far... Thanks... -tony > > Perhaps this will help: > > http://www.suttleonline.com/pdfs/misc/USOC_Guide.pdf > > and a bit more on programming resistor values: > > http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/68_502.html > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 10 16:02:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20101010140200.W51720@shell.lmi.net> But, I'd rather have the MonroeBot that they discussed on Futurama. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 16:07:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:07:16 -0700 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> References: , <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com>, <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB1C894.246.111416E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2010 at 16:03, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of > > bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically > > compatible with normal 5V TTL. > > IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the > hell out of everything. The trick is finding the documentation, and > sometimes it can cost a goodly chunk of change. I seem to recall that "VTL" is an acronym for "variable threshold logic" and dates back at least to the 1960s. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 16:29:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:29:01 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 10, 10 12:01:47 pm, Message-ID: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> A bit more on the shorting switch on your tester. It's called an "exclusion key switch" and is used to prevent an attached device from connecting to the line. Take a look at page 17 ff. in the UDS 208 modem manual: http://www.arcelect.com/208A-B_manual.PDF Those of us old enough to remember Ma Bell's setups will recall that this switch was a little transparent (IIRC illuminated) knob on the desk set that one turned to enable the modem to access the phone line. I can see why this would be part of a tester. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 17:00:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:00:54 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com>, , <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB1D526.28743.1425A47@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2010 at 14:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Those of us old enough to remember Ma Bell's setups will recall that > this switch was a little transparent (IIRC illuminated) knob on the > desk set that one turned to enable the modem to access the phone line. Or, on some sets, one of the switchhook buttons that was pulled upwards. --Chuck From zmerch-coco at 30below.com Sat Oct 9 09:03:57 2010 From: zmerch-coco at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:03:57 -0400 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB0764D.90605@30below.com> On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: [[ snippity ]] > Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... [[ snippity ]] > It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure > of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. > > It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the > closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of > playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the > luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated > Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines > for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, > instability, slowness, etc. > > It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to > the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& > the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an > interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop > - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern > native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display > environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only > terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see > such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented > 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the webpage for it: http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list of Windows OSs it runs on: """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it looks interesting: http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of spare time that I'm just now recovering from. Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 14:46:53 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 19:46:53 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, John S wrote: >>> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. >>> >>> Else it may be faulty >>> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe >>> mine is failing in a similar way. > >Tony wrote: >> FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is >> corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect >My one can generate all the letters, numbers and punctuation marks so fingers crossed the EPROM is>OK. >> IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is slightly different to the more common >> 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it >> would be interesting to compare the ROM in mine with it. >OK, I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time, but I am keen to >do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can only read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire, I'll write some notes later on the differences. I've upload the ROM image to: http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip The file looks OK, but there are a lot of FF bytes on the ROM, which hopefully imply that the whole 8K bytes weren't needed rather than the ROM is faulty. Hopefully Tony can compare this with his ROM and come back with any further tips or questions. >I might try and disassemble the code too Not yet tried DASMx (thanks for the link Phil), maybe one day. Regards, John From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 10 16:25:36 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:25:36 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: Hi, I have finally made an adapter to read the 2564 ROM from my Microwriter on my EPROM programmer (which can only read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire, I'll write some notes later on the differences. I've upload the ROM image to: http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip The file looks OK, but there are a lot of FF bytes on the ROM, which hopefully implies that the whole 8K bytes weren't needed rather than the ROM is faulty. Hopefully Tony can compare this with his ROM and come back with any further tips or questions. If anyone else has a fully working MW4 please make contact. I haven't tried to disassemble the ROM yet (thanks Phil for the link to DASMx), maybe one day. Regards, John ================================================================== John S john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:40:20 CDT 2010 >> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. >> >> Else it may be faulty >> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe >> mine is failing in a similar way. Tony wrote: > FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is > corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect My one can generate all the letters, numbers and punctuation marks so fingers crossed the EPROM is OK. > IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is slightly different to the more common > 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it > would be interesting to compare the ROM in mine with it. OK, I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time, but I am keen to do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I might try and disassemble the code too (but I don't think IDA has a 1802 option!) Regards, John From chd at chdickman.com Sun Oct 10 21:22:05 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:22:05 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:14 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 > I have a System/34 in my garage that has the first disk functional and the second disk has a thrown belt. I have a new belt, but haven't tried to install it. I have pretty much a complete set of documentation for the IBM System/34. I sent a part of the software documents to the CHM for scanning, but I retained all of the hardware stuff. -chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Oct 10 21:41:45 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:41:45 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:07 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. Evan, I don't have any history for the Monrobot but I do have copies of some of the Monrobot XI technical documents. If you're interested I can look to see exactly which documents I have. I got them from a guy who was selling a few Monrobot XI computers a while back. I had my name in for one but he ended up selling the whole lot to someone else. I convinced him to copy the documentation before sending it to the buyer. Thanks, David From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 21:53:42 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:53:42 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CB27C36.8000003@snarc.net> >> Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. > Evan, > > I don't have any history for the Monrobot but I do have copies of some of the Monrobot XI technical documents. If you're interested I can look to see exactly which documents I have. Thanks, but that's not needed right now. From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 10 21:06:50 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:06:50 -0500 Subject: Rebuilding Altair 8800b Message-ID: <4CB2713A.9060401@comcast.net> Just recently acquired an Altair 8800b (turnkey model)! Came with case, power supply, back-plane and the front control board, but no other cards. Anyone have any cards for the altair 8800b (cpu, ram, serial, parallel) they are willing to sell or trade? nick dot allen at comcast dot net From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 11:05:11 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The "death" of GEOS Message-ID: <429637.99974.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Interesting read since I haven't played with GEOs for a couple of years now. I know people who still used GEOs for the C64, but the PC version has been in limbo for a while http://www.osnews.com/story/23882/The_Death_of_GEOS_ From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon Oct 11 12:23:37 2010 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:23:37 +0200 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic Message-ID: Hi, VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic. I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual. VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers. Henk www.ibmsystem3.nl From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 11 13:03:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:03:08 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 11, at 10:23 AM, Henk Stegeman wrote: > VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic. > I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual. > > VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers. > > Henk > www.ibmsystem3.nl Looking at your web page: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/5410/images/M10CPUflow.jpg The diagram shows 8-bit data paths and ALU, but most of the user-registers are 16-bits. Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 13:36:19 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:36:19 -0400 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look > like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 > bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 11 13:51:07 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:51:07 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look >> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 >> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:29:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:29:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 9, 10 07:46:53 pm Message-ID: > I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can o= > nly read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire=2C I'll write some no= > tes later on the differences. > > I've upload the ROM image to: > > http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip THanks. I've downloaded it, it unpacks OK. I wondered why the file was larger than ecxpected, but then saw you'd included both hex and binary images. I will probably burn it into a 27C64 (those I have, and my programmer can easily handle them) and make an adapter to use it in the MW4. Then we can see if that gets mine working. I won't be doing this just yet (I've gor various other things to do), but I will let you know how I get on when I do do it. If you are going to disassemble the ROM, do you need schematics of the MW4 hardware? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:33:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:33:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 10, 10 02:29:01 pm Message-ID: > > A bit more on the shorting switch on your tester. > > It's called an "exclusion key switch" and is used to prevent an > attached device from connecting to the line. Take a look at page 17 > ff. in the UDS 208 modem manual: > > http://www.arcelect.com/208A-B_manual.PDF Thanks. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. As an aside, I am not sure how off-topic this instrument is. OK. it's not a classic computer, but I intend to use it for testing classic computer peripherals (modems, of course). It is, iteself, over 20 years old, and while it is not user-programmable (AFAIK), it does contain _6_ microprocessors (3 off 8085, an 8049, an 8041 (display driver, that one I can see the purpose of) and a 32C010 DSP). -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 11 16:37:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:37:49 -0600 Subject: at&t unix pc Message-ID: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody still cares about them? Got a pile of them, so if anybody is looking for something specific, please let me know (will take a while until I get into this pile). Any good web page with hardware information of those? Cheers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 16:46:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:46:51 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, e.stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > anybody still cares about them? Yes. > Got a pile of them, so if anybody is looking for something specific, > please let me know (will take a while until I get into this pile). I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - they work fine on a 10BaseT network. > Any good web page with hardware information of those? No, but I'd love for someone to turn up schematics or at least enough technical detail to be able to add either an IDE interface or a SCSI interface, even if it sits in the CPU socket (like some Amiga 500 disk controllers). It's a nice little machine, but it would be nice to see a homebrew upgrade path past the MFM disk controller. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:05:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:05:45 -0300 Subject: at&t unix pc References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <106e01cb6990$dff6ed60$fbdc00bd@portajara> > No, but I'd love for someone to turn up schematics or at least enough > technical detail to be able to add either an IDE interface or a SCSI > interface, even if it sits in the CPU socket (like some Amiga 500 disk > controllers). It's a nice little machine, but it would be nice to see > a homebrew upgrade path past the MFM disk controller. Of course the amiga 500 disk controller can be used...if you can write firmware for that :) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 11 17:11:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:11:23 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want > to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the > crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - > they work fine on a 10BaseT network. > StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. StarLAN generally will not work with 10, 10/100, or 10/100/gig hubs or switches. There may have been some networking equipment that could interoperate with both StarLAN and 10baseT, but I've never found it. For the Unix PC, there were separate cards for StarLAN and for 10 Mbps Ethernet. The StarLAN card used the Intel 82586 Ethernet MAC chip, while IIRC the 10 Mbps Ethernet card used the AMD Am7990 "LANCE" Ethernet MAC chip. The 10 Mbps Ethernet card did not include a 10baseT transceiver, but one can be connected via AUI. I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. The Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong Group. Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, and not with native devices. This makes it challenging to get any non-trivial networking software ported. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:28:32 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:28:32 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >> > StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is > similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, not 1Mbps. I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? -ethan From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:30:06 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:30:06 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> >> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >> > I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. ?The > Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong > Group. ?Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement > select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, > and not with native devices. ?This makes it challenging to get any > non-trivial networking software ported. It would take some digging, but I've got more than one of these beasties, and I've also got the Wollongong software (as well as a LOT of diskettes for the Unix PC; I rescued a 3 machine setup from an owner who appears to have purchased every single option he could get his hands on). I've even got the 'black binder' which is the technician's field notebook for repairs, I believe. I can look at it and see if there's anything useful in it. I loved rescuing these machines and have set up 2 of them from the original (25 year old) diskettes, but I haven't had time to do much more than that. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 18:33:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:33:12 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB39EB8.8050300@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 6:30 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>> >> I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. The >> Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong >> Group. Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement >> select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, >> and not with native devices. This makes it challenging to get any >> non-trivial networking software ported. > > It would take some digging, but I've got more than one of these > beasties, and I've also got the Wollongong software (as well as a LOT > of diskettes for the Unix PC; I rescued a 3 machine setup from an > owner who appears to have purchased every single option he could get > his hands on). I've even got the 'black binder' which is the > technician's field notebook for repairs, I believe. I can look at it > and see if there's anything useful in it. I loved rescuing these > machines and have set up 2 of them from the original (25 year old) > diskettes, but I haven't had time to do much more than that. I've done tons and tons with these machines, but haven't been into them in-depth for about twenty years. I sold and serviced them when they were new, and had one at home around 1988 or so. LOVED it! What I did NOT love, however, was the horrible IP stack that Wollongong slapped together for that Ethernet card. It's one of the most crash-prone pieces of software I've ever seen, and when the IP stack crashed, it took down the entire machine. I got one again (thanks yet again Mark Tapley and Robert Klar!) about eight years ago, and while I don't often have a chance to fire it up, it sits proudly on display. It's a good design and I like it a lot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 18:34:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:34:01 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>> >> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is >> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. > > Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN > transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, > not 1Mbps. I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 > StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. > > Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. I don't recall if they were labeled as such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 19:02:20 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine and the System/34 also used RPG II whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III,? The problem with the logic cycle was that it didn't fit well into the interactive model environment.? Interestingly Honeywell (Italy I think) introduced a RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their attempt at a relational database as found on System/38.? THe IBM 360/20 was the predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit machine with a reduced instruction set. Russ --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson wrote: From: Rich Alderson Subject: RE: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look >> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 >> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. Not for IBM.? The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 11 19:57:38 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:57:38 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 11, at 11:51 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM > >>> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did >>> it look >>> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always >>> processed 2 >>> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > >> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very >> non-traditional. OK, forgot about that possibility. I was aware of the 1401 (but not from direct experience). > Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. > > The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in > anything other > than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the > System/3x and > AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. (I should have said machine-instruction level rather than programmer's level.) From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 11 20:16:52 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:16:52 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Russ Bartlett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:02 PM > --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Rich Alderson >> Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM >> From: William Donzelli >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >>>> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it >>>> look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always >>>> processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed >>>> 8/16? >>> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very >>> non-traditional. >> Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. >> The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything >> other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the >> System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program >> product. > Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine and the System/34 > also used RPG II whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III, The problem > with the logic cycle was that it didn't fit well into the interactive > model environment. Interestingly Honeywell (Italy I think) introduced a > RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their attempt at a > relational database as found on System/38. THe IBM 360/20 was the > predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit > machine with a reduced instruction set. Thanks for the correction on RPG II vs. III; I thought RPG II was a 360 product, but then, I never used any version of RPG. I did my sentence as a financial systems programmer in COBOL and PL/I on a 370/168 and Amdahl 470. There is one more connection between the S/3 (and possibly its successors?) and the 1401: The character encoding on the cute little 96-column card was the same as the internal BCD representation of those characters on the 1401. I learned that in 1972-73 from a System/3 that I worked around but not with, when I still had the 1401 character set representation in my head and in my documentation collection. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:48:49 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:48:49 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>>> >>> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. ?The signalling is >>> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. >> >> Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN >> transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, >> not 1Mbps. ?I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 >> StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. >> >> Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? > > ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I > don't recall if they were labeled as such. > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick and contains sections on: * System Features and Functions * Logic Board Theory of Operation * Diagnostics * Logic Board Test Procedures * Schematics * PAL Equations * Mnemonics * Expansion Memory Locations As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital form somewhere? Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 22:26:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:26:22 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC > Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level > troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick > and contains sections on: > > * System Features and Functions > * Logic Board Theory of Operation > * Diagnostics > * Logic Board Test Procedures > * Schematics > * PAL Equations > * Mnemonics > * Expansion Memory Locations > > As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital > form somewhere? Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:59:00 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:59:00 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >> and contains sections on: >> >> * System Features and Functions >> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >> * Diagnostics >> * Logic Board Test Procedures >> * Schematics >> * PAL Equations >> * Mnemonics >> * Expansion Memory Locations >> >> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >> form somewhere? > > ?Not that I'm aware of. ?Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! ?I saw that > manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs I produce to bitsavers? Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 23:08:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:08:16 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 11:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> >>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick >>> and contains sections on: >>> >>> * System Features and Functions >>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>> * Diagnostics >>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>> * Schematics >>> * PAL Equations >>> * Mnemonics >>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>> >>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>> form somewhere? >> >> Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that >> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. > > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > I produce to bitsavers? I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for his PDFs. It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing any work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 11 23:08:42 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:08:42 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3DF4A.3000204@tdh.com> Wow, actually that is the first time I heard of such binder existing! Would love to see a copy of that in digital form somehow! On 10/11/2010 10:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick >>> and contains sections on: >>> >>> * System Features and Functions >>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>> * Diagnostics >>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>> * Schematics >>> * PAL Equations >>> * Mnemonics >>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>> >>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>> form somewhere? >> Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that >> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > I produce to bitsavers? > > Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 23:54:47 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:54:47 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 11:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire >> ?wrote: >>> >>> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >>>> and contains sections on: >>>> >>>> * System Features and Functions >>>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>>> * Diagnostics >>>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>>> * Schematics >>>> * PAL Equations >>>> * Mnemonics >>>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>>> >>>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>>> form somewhere? >>> >>> ?Not that I'm aware of. ?Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! ?I saw >>> that >>> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. >> >> Ok, I'm open to suggestions. ?I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, >> but it would be a lot of pages. ?It would also take me some time, >> which is fine. ?Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the >> discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me >> happy. ?What's the procedure for doing this? ?Do I just give the PDFs >> I produce to bitsavers? > > ?I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. > > ?I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for > his PDFs. ?It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing > any work. If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. Mark From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 01:21:49 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 03:21:49 -0300 Subject: at&t unix pc References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <139f01cb69d6$769e1320$fbdc00bd@portajara> > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. Make that two :) From mike at fenz.net Tue Oct 12 05:34:07 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:34:07 +1300 Subject: Dead Sega SC3000H In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB4399F.8030202@fenz.net> Hi everyone, I've been working on a Sega SC3000H: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=206 It seems to have the common problems that afflict these. Firstly, the 7805 regulator was dead. I pulled it and gave the machine 5V from an external supply, and it ran fine - apart from what looked like a horrible RAM fault. I can see it's trying to do something sensible, but the display is corrupt. So, I tried the next test for obvious RAM failure - are any of the RAM ICs getting unusually hot? Seven were barely warm, but one is almost too hot to touch. Now, this is annoying because I don't want to spend a great deal of cash on this machine, but I'd really like to get it going. I have two questions: - Am I jumping to conclusions re the faulty RAM? The ICs aren't socketed, can anyone suggest any worthwhile tests? - Does anyone know of somewhere I can get a MCM4517 P15 or equivalent, nice and cheap? One problem - I'm in New Zealand. I'm a software guy really, but I do enjoy getting stuck into the hardware from time to time! Mike From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 03:47:11 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:47:11 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: Thanks, yes a schematic would be great. Can I post it to the web please? I'm sure Tony knows the following, included as background. Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: 2564 pins?????? 2764 pins 20 (A11)??????? 23 (A11) 23 (A12)??????? 2 (A12) 2+27(CS1+CS2)?? 22 (OE) 1 (Vpp)???????? 28 (Vcc) 22 (PD/PGM)???? 20 (CE) (NC)??????????? 27 (PGM) All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used in the reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket), as CS1 and CS2 may or may not be tied together depending on the circuit. Also programming a 2564 uses a different algorithm to programming a 2764. For example, on a 2764 Vpp can be left at programming voltage of 21V during a verify cycle, whilst on the 2564 Vpp is at 25V for programming and 5V for verifying / reading (I assume the 25C64 is similar but with a lower Vpp). Regards, John ============================================================== Tony Duell ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:29:35 CDT 2010 > I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can o= > nly read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire=2C I'll write some no= > tes later on the differences. > > I've upload the ROM image to: > > http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip THanks. I've downloaded it, it unpacks OK. I wondered why the file was larger than ecxpected, but then saw you'd included both hex and binary images. I will probably burn it into a 27C64 (those I have, and my programmer can easily handle them) and make an adapter to use it in the MW4. Then we can see if that gets mine working. I won't be doing this just yet (I've gor various other things to do), but I will let you know how I get on when I do do it. If you are going to disassemble the ROM, do you need schematics of the MW4 hardware? -tony From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Oct 12 04:36:11 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:36:11 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure Message-ID: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi, Apologies that my first post to this list for a while is one requesting assistance, but my unjustified faith in hard drive technology has bitten me... The Seagate drive in my VAXstation 4000/90 (running OpenVMS 7.3) failed recently and it hadn't been backed up for quite a while. We had a power surge which tripped the main circuit breaker, and when I reset the breaker and turned the box back on the drive failed to spin up. The drive is recognized by the firmware, except that the capacity column shows ... instead of a figure. An LED on the controller circuit board lights a couple of times reinforcing that the drive electronics are talking across the SCSI bus, but as I say the drive refuses to spin up. The box was running a website dedicated to HECNet (it was at http://www.hecnet.eu) using the WASD webserver and was able to report on issues with the network and current HECnet nodes. My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part with for a reasonable amount of money? At the moment the only drives I can find are in the region of $150 which is more than I can comfortably part with on the off chance that swapping the controller board might give the drive new life. Many thanks for the help. Mark. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 12 09:43:15 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:43:15 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc (big black binder scan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:34 -0500 10/12/10, Mark D. wrote: >If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. At 5:34 -0500 10/12/10, Alexandre quoted Dave: > > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. > > Make that two :) ...three! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 07:15:23 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: >>>>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>>>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>>>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >>>>> and contains sections on: >>>>> >>>>> * System Features and Functions >>>>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>>>> * Diagnostics >>>>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>>>> * Schematics >>>>> * PAL Equations >>>>> * Mnemonics >>>>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>>>> >>>>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>>>> form somewhere? I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. >> ?I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for >> his PDFs. ?It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing >> any work. > > If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. Where are these available? On bitsavers? Steve -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 12 11:23:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 17:23:11 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> Mark Wickens wrote: > Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part > with for a reasonable amount of money? I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according to my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive which should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 11:40:46 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:40:46 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, etc. Professional and useful. I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 12 11:45:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:45:06 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> On 10/12/10 12:40 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. Professional and useful. > > I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, > records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 12:00:56 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:00:56 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:40 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>I have one of these here. ?Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. ?Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. ?Professional and useful. > > I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, > records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. > > - John > > John--- Which model do you have? Mark From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 11:58:26 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:58:26 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap In-Reply-To: <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:45 AM 10/12/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? They sell Mac and PC versions. The PC version comes with Acrobat Standard. The Mac version comes with Acrobat Professional, so it costs a bit more. A few minutes' googling today tells me that it works under Linux with SANE and the Windows stuff works under VirtualBox. http://lawyerist.com/fujitsu-scansnap-s1500-document-scanner/ As I said, apparently used by a lot of professionals. Another nice bit: they actively sell the consumables such as cleaning kits and recommending you replace the pick rollers every 100,000 sheets or the pad assemblies every 50,000 sheets. I haven't had any trouble with mine so far. Comes with a clear carrier sheet for holding odd-shaped items, and a clever mechanism for auto-rejoining some multi-page documents. http://scansnap.fujitsu.com/ - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 12 12:19:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:13 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap In-Reply-To: <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CB49891.9080607@neurotica.com> On 10/12/10 12:58 PM, John Foust wrote: >> Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? > > They sell Mac and PC versions. The PC version comes with Acrobat Standard. > The Mac version comes with Acrobat Professional, so it costs a bit more. > > A few minutes' googling today tells me that it works under Linux > with SANE and the Windows stuff works under VirtualBox. > > http://lawyerist.com/fujitsu-scansnap-s1500-document-scanner/ > > As I said, apparently used by a lot of professionals. Another nice bit: > they actively sell the consumables such as cleaning kits and recommending > you replace the pick rollers every 100,000 sheets or the pad assemblies > every 50,000 sheets. I haven't had any trouble with mine so far. > > Comes with a clear carrier sheet for holding odd-shaped items, and > a clever mechanism for auto-rejoining some multi-page documents. > > http://scansnap.fujitsu.com/ Wow, that sounds like a seriously nice device. I'm going to have to put that on my wish list. Thanks for the info! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 13:50:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:50:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 12, 10 00:08:16 am Message-ID: [Unix PC schematics, etc, book] > > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > > I produce to bitsavers? > > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. So would I, and I don't own a UnixPC. Reading old technical manuals is very interesting for me. And maybe one day I'll find such a machine, but they are very rare in the UK, and for various reasons I can't spend much money on classic computers at the momnet. But things can change... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 14:01:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:01:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 12, 10 08:47:11 am Message-ID: > > > > > Thanks=2C yes a schematic would be great. Can I post it to the web please? Sure, but _you'll_ have to scan it. I don't own a scanner. And of course I will have to send it by sanil-mail > > I'm sure Tony knows the following=2C included as background. I didn;t _know_ it, but I am pretty sure I have the 2564 data sheet somewhere. I certainly have the 2764 one :-) > > Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: > > > 2564 pins=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2764 pins > 20 (A11)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 23 (A11) > 23 (A12)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2 (A12) > 2+27(CS1+CS2)=A0=A0 22 (OE) > 1 (Vpp)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 28 (Vcc) > 22 (PD/PGM)=A0=A0=A0=A0 20 (CE) > (NC)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 27 (PGM) > > All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used i= > n the=20 > reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket)=2C as CS1 and CS2 may = > or may not > be tied together depending on the circuit. Darn!. That may be where I got to before and sort-of gave up. Perhaps I will have to use a 2564, which means fidning/building a programmer that can handle them. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Oct 12 14:08:51 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:08:51 -0500 Subject: Old calculators Message-ID: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> I have more calculators accumulated over 30+ years than I'll ever play with, so would like to find new homes for a few. http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PA030021.jpg From left to right: -RadioShack EC-220 (Cat No 65-604). Working. -Unitrex "Memory-8". Missing battery compartment cover. Working. -Commodore MM2 "Minuteman 2". Not working. Comes with wall wart. -TI SR-51-II. Not working. Several years ago I put new nicads in the battery pack and it worked then. With case, wart & manual. -Unknown mfg. "4-banger" with LCD display and incandescent backlight. Works but has air bubble partially obscuring LSD's 2/3. This one was written up in "73 Magazine" in the late '70's or early '80's and was available from Meshna, Poly Paks or a similar surplus place. Would like to get $10 for all five, plus shipping from US zip 65775. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Oct 12 13:15:53 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:15:53 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> On 12/10/10 17:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Mark Wickens wrote: > >> Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to >> part with for a reasonable amount of money? > > I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a > Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. > > I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according > to my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive > which should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. > Hi Pete, Thanks for the help. I'll need to track down exactly the same pcb down to firmware revision if I have any hope of swapping it. I am going to try the drive tonight in some different configurations (upside down/on its side) to see if anything different happens. However, the drive was on 24/7 before it failed due to the power issue, so I think realistically it is more likely to be a blown pcb. I've now moved over to using a BA356 enclosure with volume shadowing and the works, so this problem won't happen again hopefully! Regards, Mark. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 14:35:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:35:16 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12 October 2010 19:15, Mark Wickens wrote: > On 12/10/10 17:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Mark Wickens wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part >>> with for a reasonable amount of money? >> >> I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a >> Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. >> >> I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according to >> my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive which >> should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. >> > Hi Pete, > > Thanks for the help. I'll need to track down exactly the same pcb down to > firmware revision if I have any hope of swapping it. I have a few 9.1GB SCSI drives around. I'll try to remember to check, but if you've not heard in a few days, prod me by direct email. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 12 15:18:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:18:07 -0700 Subject: Old calculators In-Reply-To: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> References: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 12, at 12:08 PM, Charles wrote: > I have more calculators accumulated over 30+ years than I'll ever > play with, so would like to find new homes for a few. > > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PA030021.jpg > From left to right: > > -RadioShack EC-220 (Cat No 65-604). Working. > -Unitrex "Memory-8". Missing battery compartment cover. Working. > -Commodore MM2 "Minuteman 2". Not working. Comes with wall wart. > -TI SR-51-II. Not working. Several years ago I put new nicads in > the battery pack and it worked then. With case, wart & manual. > -Unknown mfg. "4-banger" with LCD display and incandescent > backlight. Works but has air bubble partially obscuring LSD's 2/3. > This one was written up in "73 Magazine" in the late '70's or > early '80's and was available from Meshna, Poly Paks or a similar > surplus place. That unit is notable as it was very early use of an LCD. Should date from around 1972/3. See the Lloyds Accumatic 70 or Rapidman 1208LC: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/deskGallery2.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Lloyds70.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Rapidman1208LC.html Somebody OEM'd the electronics for different labels. (I have enough of them, thanks) > Would like to get $10 for all five, plus shipping from US zip > 65775. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 15:33:04 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:33:04 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I > don't recall if they were labeled as such. This is a fuzzy memory, but I do recall when I first got my 3B1s, reading about the Starlan it used and how it was not the same Starlan for which one can find a few bits on ebay. There was supposed to be a bridge device out there to 10BT ethernet. And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. I have at home a Starlan testing device! Not sure *which* Starlan that is for, though. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 15:50:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:50:23 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>>> >>> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is >>> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. > >> Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? > > You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from > StarLAN. I don't recall if they were labeled as such. Ah. That may be. I'll dig stuff out from behind the workbench and see how it's marked. -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 12 18:41:46 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 18:41:46 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> Mark Wickens wrote: > > My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor > controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the drive > has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without issue I'm > thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a head problem, > but I'm open to alternative opinions. I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it and whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, drop it flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system that can take a backup. It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the drive spun up. Doc From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 16:56:56 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 17:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I >> don't recall if they were labeled as such. > > This is a fuzzy memory, but I do recall when I first got my 3B1s, > reading about the Starlan it used and how it was not the same Starlan > for which one can find a few bits on ebay. There was supposed to be a > bridge device out there to 10BT ethernet. And of course there is the > quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! -- From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 17:03:40 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:03:40 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE:Microwriter MW4 help > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:47:11 +0000 > > Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: > > > 2564 pins 2764 pins > 20 (A11) 23 (A11) > 23 (A12) 2 (A12) > 2+27(CS1+CS2) 22 (OE) > 1 (Vpp) 28 (Vcc) > 22 (PD/PGM) 20 (CE) > (NC) 27 (PGM) > > All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used in the > reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket), as CS1 and CS2 may or may not > be tied together depending on the circuit. > On the 2564 the chip is selected when CS1 and CS2 are both low, I thought perhaps a pair of diodes could be used to feed an OR of these signals to the OE (active low) on an 2764? If not then a 74LSxxx would have to pressed into use. Regards, John From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Oct 12 23:02:42 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (nick.allen at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:02:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 13 03:00:50 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:00:50 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Doc wrote: > Mark Wickens wrote: >> >> My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor >> controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the >> drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without >> issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a >> head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. > > I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it and > whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, drop it > flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system that can > take a backup. > > It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the drive > spun up. Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power it up :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 13 05:38:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> On 13/10/10 09:00, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to > check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power > it up :-) Get a couple of silica gel pouches and a Ziplock bag -- put the silica gel pouches in the bag, followed by the HDD, then seal it. Put the sealed bag in the freezer and leave it for a while (say an hour or so). Worked for me the last time I did this... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 13 06:37:03 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:37:03 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201010131142.o9DBg25t073697@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:38 AM 10/13/2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Get a couple of silica gel pouches and a Ziplock bag -- put the silica gel pouches in the bag, followed by the HDD, then seal it. Put the sealed bag in the freezer and leave it for a while (say an hour or so). The condensation happens after you take the cold metal item out of the freezer and into warm humid air, no? - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 08:35:32 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:35:32 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB5B5A4.2080802@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Doc wrote: >> Mark Wickens wrote: >>> >>> My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor >>> controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the >>> drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without >>> issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a >>> head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. >> >> I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it >> and whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, >> drop it flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system >> that can take a backup. >> >> It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the >> drive spun up. > > Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to > check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power > it up :-) Indeed. I've used big pans of ice sat upon the drive before as a way of keeping the temperature down long enough to get the data off - seems to work well (just use something as a non-conductive barrier on the PCB side). If that Seagate drive is the one I'm thinking of, they had a reputation for running hot and slowly cooking themselves :-( I think I have one with a narrow interface still, but it's overseas so unfortunately I'm not getting to it any time soon. If the problem is heads stuck to platters, then worst-case you could open the drive up and try freeing them by turning the spindle manually - I've had good results with that in the past. Do it in as clean an environment that you can manage (and ditch the drive afterwards, obviously). cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 13 08:51:16 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:51:16 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> MAJOR DROOLAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had the spare $$$ {tears} nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 > > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). > > > Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3192 - Release Date: 10/12/10 02:34:00 > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 13 08:55:50 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:55:50 -0500 Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then >> >running a soldering iron along the joint. >On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: >> What does that do? Heat helps it? >Welding the joint at the surface. >Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. >Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup rollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) I stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler of small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for sanding and paint. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 13 09:06:08 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, John Foust wrote: > At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then >>>> running a soldering iron along the joint. >> On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: >>> What does that do? Heat helps it? >> Welding the joint at the surface. >> Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. >> Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. > > While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup > rollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) > I stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. > > It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler > of small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for > sanding and paint. > Those of us that build R/C airplanes use a product called "microbaloons" that are used this same way, quite often mixed with epoxy. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 09:47:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:47:02 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/10, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: > And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. > > I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). Abstractly, I know how to do this on M68M machines, but I lack specific knowledge of the innards of the 3B1/7300 to predict how this would go. Of course, the expected market of such a peripheral would be somewhat small, and I suppose if it were easy, there would have been something like it 15 years ago. Still - it's easy to dream one up. Back when they were new, I would have loved to have had one, but they were priced far out of my reach (though many of my local friends who worked at the Columbus Bell Labs/Western Electric plant bought them through employee discounts - we were all part of a county-wide UUCP network in the days before ISPs and dialup PPP links were common. Later, many of the 7300s were gradually replaced by 386s running Interactive UNIX, which I _could_ afford). > And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! Was there ever an attempt made at a replacement, or was the nature of the machine (i.e., closed-source controlled by AT&T) such that user-initiated projects were doomed to fail? -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 13 10:56:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:56:59 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum [curt at atarimuseum.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:51 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) MAJOR DROOLAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had the spare $$$ {tears} nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 > > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). > > > Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3192 - Release Date: 10/12/10 02:34:00 > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 11:17:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:17:07 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the > ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At my age, such answers don't come easily. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 13 11:42:06 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:42:06 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:17 PM Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. > > --Chuck > The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you do with it? There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 11:57:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:57:30 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 12:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to > shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you > do with it? > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I > can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and > refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless > somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? Pretty much my feeling. I look at the not-to-distant time when I'll have to move and downsize, or worse yet, just plain die and folks will have to select the most expeditious way to dispose of what I have. I no longer accept any vintage gear unless it's small and unusual and I can think of a use for it. Let the museums and folks with warehouse space have the stuff. Anybody want a NEC Spinwriter? I gave in to a moment of weakness and took it in. Now it sits in my shop, neglected. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 13 12:05:29 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:05:29 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB5E6D9.4020202@atarimuseum.com> I've narrowed my collecting interests outside of Atari specifically to only Mindset and Corvus, though I drool over something like a Xerox Alto, I just can't dedicate the time and space for another orphan and I have to stay focused.... otherwise I'll never get the core work I want to do done, plus if my wife sees me haul another major classic computing item or arcade machine into the house, I'm gonna be sleeping out in the shed :-) Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 12:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >> The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to >> shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you >> do with it? >> >> There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better >> off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I >> can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and >> refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless >> somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? >> > > Pretty much my feeling. I look at the not-to-distant time when I'll > have to move and downsize, or worse yet, just plain die and folks > will have to select the most expeditious way to dispose of what I > have. > > I no longer accept any vintage gear unless it's small and unusual and > I can think of a use for it. Let the museums and folks with > warehouse space have the stuff. > > Anybody want a NEC Spinwriter? I gave in to a moment of weakness and > took it in. Now it sits in my shop, neglected. > > --Chuck > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 13 12:16:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:16:08 -0600 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:42:06 -0400. <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: In article <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75 at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > The usual where would you put it, I'd store it in my warehouse with the rest of the gear for my computer graphics history museum. > how much money would you have to shell out > to buy it and ship it, Shipping is probably $200-300 for proper packing and freight shipping. Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. While it would be nice to have one of these, at this point I can think of much more effective things I could do to improve my museum with the same amount of money. However, as time goes on, it becomes harder to find items for the museum that fill a gap and the more exotic items start working their way up the priority list. > and once here what exactly would you do with it? Restore it to working condition and occasionally exhibit it functioning. Usually exhibit video of it functioning. For an item like this, I would be treating its restoration like the way the PDP-1 team worked at CHM. > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off in > a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I highly doubt that anyone on this list leaves stuff "to rot" in their basement. > How rare are they anyway? I would hazard a guess that less than 25 units are still in existence. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 13 12:58:45 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:58:45 +0200 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5F355.6090905@bluewin.ch> On 10/13/2010 07:16 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75 at dell8300>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > > >> The usual where would you put it, >> > I'd store it in my warehouse with the rest of the gear for my computer > graphics history museum. > > >> how much money would you have to shell out >> to buy it and ship it, >> > Shipping is probably $200-300 for proper packing and freight shipping. > > Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a > minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. While it would > I would expect it to fetch more. I would certainly pay more, if I could get it to Europe.. Jos Dreesen From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 13 13:00:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. I couldn't agree more with your first question. Honestly the only answer I can come up with is to donate it. My money is better spent elsewhere, like on a 19th century Petzval lens (still looking for a suitable one) for my Photography. The only classic computer stuff I've collected in the past several years was a couple carloads that were mostly Commodore stuff. It helped out my Aunt to dispose of stuff from someone she knew that died, and it gave me spares as well as several items I've wanted since they were new. I'm looking to dispose of stuff, not get more. Sadly I've found an interesting roadblock to disposing of stuff, and that is finding free time to dig stuff out and get rid of it. Like my money, my time is better spent elsewhere, and it is spent on my family and my photography. People change over time, and with those changes what is important changes. Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Oct 13 13:10:06 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:10:06 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap (was Re: at&t unix pc) References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201010131810.o9DIA7cj093172@lots.reanimators.org> John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. Professional and useful. I have the S1500M (Mac OS X flavor) and have been able to convince it to produce files that I can make good enough for my purposes. What follows are some notes on what I've found and how I deal with it. Having been through the file boxes of old account statements, I turned my attention to books which I had multiple copies of so that I can have one at home and one at the office, for reference. One in PDF on the MacBook would be somewhat handier. I took Al's standards as a guideline. (See , look for the heading "The PDF DOcument Format" and start reading there, but I also got some verbal comments from Al and watched him do some scans with his setup.) 400dpi black-and-white scans, maybe 600dpi if there is fine-pitch text. The dot pitches given are indicated to support better OCR quality. Pages with primarily photographic content may be scanned as "grayscale" or "color" but this leads to them being saved through a DCT filter (i.e. JPEG-flavor lossy compression) in the PDF. Sometimes you have to choose what sucks less. I scan covers as 150dpi color documents (yielding JPEGs) with a flatbed scanner. Yeah, a bit chunky, but good enough for me. It can be important to create a ScanSnap scanning profile (preset) that forces black-and-white scans. In my experience letting the ScanSnap software make the decision how to scan a page will have it scanning yellowed or other non-white-paper pages in color with resulting use of the lossy DCT filter (and lower dpi too). One of the books I scanned early on was the Turbo C 2.0 Reference Guide. Yeah, I know, it's already up on bitsavers.org. I wanted to see how the output from the ScanSnap Mac software compared with the output from Al's process. The answer was, it produces PDF files that are two to three times as large. This is because it encodes black-and-white page scans with the Deflate filter, which is all very well and good and not lossy, but the CCITTFax filter simply yields better compression. The Acrobat 8 Pro (bundled with the ScanSnap) can do this for you: you set up a Preflight profile that includes the fixup "Compress all monochrome images using CCITT Group 4", and then open the PDF and execute that Preflight profile to re-compress the black-and-white page scans. I believe use of the Deflate filter is a (mis)feature of OS X Core Graphics; I observe that if I edit a PDF with Preview and save it, CCITTFax compressed monochrome images are re-compressed with the Deflate filter and the file grows much larger. Scanning is fast and easy and reasonably reliable. The ScanSnap is pretty good about detecting paper jams and misfeeds and multiple-page feeds; in 53000 pages through I think I've found one case where it didn't detect a multi-page feed. How do I detect that? I use Acrobat to number pages in the PDF with numbers that correspond to the page numbers in the scanned book. If they don't match up at the end I know I have a problem. Mind, for some books this can take considerable time. OCR is slow (a few pages per minute) but does sometimes come in handy for searchability. I'd like a version with an 11"-wide paper path: not only could I scan some more stuff, I could feed more originals through sideways for a shorter scan. Numbering the pages in the PDF effectively makes two sets of page numbers: physical page numbers (1, 2, 3, ..., n) and logical page numbers (the page numbers you put down in the PDF). This works OK when the PDF is viewed with Acrobat Reader or Preview: you see the page numbers you put down. It's not so useful when the PDF is viewed on an iOS or Android device; those readers show the physical page numbers. -Frank McConnell From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 13 13:37:01 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <99653.10112.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Couldn't agree more. I used to have a pretty extensive collection of stuff, but I've pretty much limited myself down to about 3 different machines apart from our current machines. ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 1:00:26 PM Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. I couldn't agree more with your first question. Honestly the only answer I can come up with is to donate it. My money is better spent elsewhere, like on a 19th century Petzval lens (still looking for a suitable one) for my Photography. The only classic computer stuff I've collected in the past several years was a couple carloads that were mostly Commodore stuff. It helped out my Aunt to dispose of stuff from someone she knew that died, and it gave me spares as well as several items I've wanted since they were new. I'm looking to dispose of stuff, not get more. Sadly I've found an interesting roadblock to disposing of stuff, and that is finding free time to dig stuff out and get rid of it. Like my money, my time is better spent elsewhere, and it is spent on my family and my photography. People change over time, and with those changes what is important changes. Zane From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 13 14:15:07 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:15:07 -0500 Subject: FS: Apple IIe manuals Message-ID: Continuing to clear the bookshelves :) I have a set of original Apple IIe manuals for sale. Apple IIe Owner's Manual, IIe Reference Manual, 80-Column Text Card, Reference Manual Addendum (Monitor Listings), Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement, DOS Programmer's Manual, ProDOS User's Manual, ProDOS Supplement to the IIe Owner's Manual, AppleWriter II, & Super Serial Card User's Manual. http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=PA130023.jpg $20.00 plus 8 lb (Media Mail) postage from zip 65775. Also an original Apple II Reference Manual: http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=PA130024.jpg $5.00 plus 1 lb postage. please contact me off-list if interested. I've got the //e also with Duo-Disk floppy drive, but it won't be worth the postage! thanks Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 13:22:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:22:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 12, 10 10:03:40 pm Message-ID: > On the 2564 the chip is selected when CS1 and CS2 are both low=2C I thought= And PD has to be low too. Thatgives you effectively 3 enalbes, and they're all used for different signals in the MW4 :-(. A13, A15 and A14 ORed with Rd/ So the top 3 address lines and the Rd/ signal all have to be low to enable the ROM. > perhaps a pair of diodes could be used to feed an OR of these signals to t= > he OE (active low) on an 2764? If not then a 74LSxxx would have to pressed = > into use. I think 4000 series CMOS would be better in the MW4. It's what's used anyway for address decoding, etc. I don't think there are any spare gates in the MW4, so you would have to add another chip ;-(. It might be easier to convince one of my programmers ot burn a 2564. If the original chip is OK part from bit-rot, it should be possible to program it again. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 13 15:05:47 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:05:47 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe manuals have been claimed Message-ID: <074cb6hqaivqd5ju0kb8ml3i9qjm9drrv9@4ax.com> Thanks for all the responses! The IIe manuals have sold. From jonnosan at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 06:50:55 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:50:55 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: I am trying to disassemble some ROM dumps from the SacState 8008 machine (per http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-September/291012.html ) I can see a lot of escape codes being sent, but they don't make sense (to me at least) as Tektronix 4023 escape codes, which is the terminal type reported as being used with that machine. For example, the first thing output after a restart is: HEX ASCII 1F Unit Separator 0D CR 0A LF 3F ? pressing the keys "!\h" would generate this sequence: 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 12 DC2 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 14 DC4 Does anything there look familiar to anyone at all? this would be some kind of terminal from early to mid 70s. Cheers Jonno From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 13 09:50:16 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:50:16 +0200 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> On 09/30/10 06:42, "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > I have been working on my TCP/IP stack for DOS, adding IP fragmentation > support. There are not too many more features that I want to add to > make it 'complete' before I open source the code and IP fragment support > was a big one. > > I am having a terrible time testing it though. It seems that IP > fragments out in the wild are pretty rare. I tried connecting to a slew > of remote FTP sites hoping to find one that was behind a really bad > network, and thus would have fragments coming from it. No joy. > > It seems that there are a lot of tricks out there to prevent fragments > from being created, especially when using TCP. The only way I can test > the code is to send myself oversized UDP packets. If it works for UDP > then it should work for TCP too, but I'd really like to test the TCP > path explicitly. Combine the tricks with modern broadband and getting > fragments is really difficult. > > Why? Are you handling UDP and TCP differently at the IP level??? I've written my own TCP/IP (for a PDP-11), and the fragment reassembly code I mostly tested using ICMP, since that was so easy. The IP code is totally protocol-agnostic, so if it works for one protocol, it will work for any. If you haven't done your code this way, then maybe you should rethink that part. TCP is, as you noted, explicitly trying to avoid fragmentation. So it's not an easy protocol to use to test this. > Even on the home network I am having a hard time getting fragments. I > put a Linux box between the DOS PC and a Windows machine, and set one of > the Ethernet MTUs to 576. Well, that didn't force fragments because the > Windows box is too clever. I could start turning everything off in the > registry, but I really don't want to get that involved. > > Off the top of my head I think I am going to have to get another Linux > box and dumb that down, if it is possible. Dumbing Linux down to turn > off the features and then restoring it to a good state is probably > safer/easier than doing it with Windows. > I doubt that would help you either. If you read through the TCP specs, you'll find how the path MTU, and thus MSS is determined. And I doubt you can turn those knobs off. > Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network that > will result in IP fragments of TCP? > > Nope. And I don't really think that it should be neccesary. > On a related note, is this even worth it? I don't know of anything that > needs to send fragments except for NFS over UDP. There might be other > applications that send big packets over UDP but those would be the only > class of applications that absolutely require fragment support. With > TCP it is nice, but a user should be able to get around any problem by > setting the local MTU to 576. > > Yes, I think it is worth it. Not only can packets be fragmented along the way, but you are not even guaranteed that 576 byte packets will not get fragmented. IP requires that you should always be able to pass through 576 byte packets, but it don't actually say anything about fragmentation in this case. If you dig really deep, you'll find that the guaranteed minimum packet size that IP needs to handle without fragmentation is 65 bytes. All above that could get fragmented, so fragment reassembly is a good thing to have. I think, for instance, SLIP interfaces usually run with an MTU of 296, or something like that. But, with all that said, several IP implementations do take a short cut with regards to fragmentation and either totally skip it, or just implement reassembly, and not fragmentation. You can get away with that most of the time, even though it is breaking the requirements. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 13 10:17:13 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:17:13 +0200 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5CD79.5040906@softjar.se> On 10/01/10 00:22, "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Sean Conner wrote: >> > While I'm familiar wih IP, I haven't tried implementing it, but, what if >> > you were to set an MTU size of around 50 bytes? The IP header (sans >> > options) is 20 bytes, and the TCP header is another 20. I would think >> > setting the MTU to just above 40 might cause some fragmentation (I thought >> > of suggesting an MTU of just above 20, but then you're testing for IP >> > fragmentation, and not TCP fragmentation. >> > >> > I tend to do stupid stuff like that, but then again, I*was* hired to >> > write testing code at my current job ... >> > >> > -spc (In thoery, IP should work with an MTU of 30 bytes, right?) > The IP header is 20 bytes without any IP header options, and the TCP > header is another 20 bytes without any TCP header options. The minimum allowed MTU is actually 68. (I wrote 65 erronously in a previous mail.) See RFC 791, page 24. In addition to the 68 bytes for a single fragment, an IP stack must be able to handle 576 byte packets, but there is no requirement that this isn't sent in fragments. The receiver must, however, always be able to handle atleast 576 byte packets. > My implementation has room for 10 fragments per packet (configurable > with a #define), which is great for a 'normal' MTU size. If I tested > with a ridiculously small MTU it would wind up throwing a lot of things > away, but many implementations do the same thing. You should allocate that stuff dynamically. > My fragment problem is mostly on the source side - the source machines > are too clever about trying to probe and eliminate fragments. > > Linux has also been 'interesting' as a gateway. Some kernel versions > allow TCP fragments through even though they have bad checksums. I > throw away any packet with a bad checksum. Mixing NAT (Network Address > Translation) and fragments was problematic in my setup too - I think > that Linux was completely screwing up the payload checksums for TCP. What are you talking about? IP fragments for TCP don't have checksums of the TCP payload. There is only a checksum for the IP header. Only the final destination reassembles the packet, and can do a checksum of the TCP packet. Johnny From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 10:57:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/12/10, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: >> And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. >> >> I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. > > It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a > Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory > expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be > about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots > could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). Abstractly, I know how > to do this on M68M machines, but I lack specific knowledge of the > innards of the 3B1/7300 to predict how this would go. > > Of course, the expected market of such a peripheral would be somewhat > small, and I suppose if it were easy, there would have been something > like it 15 years ago. Still - it's easy to dream one up. Back when > they were new, I would have loved to have had one, but they were > priced far out of my reach (though many of my local friends who worked > at the Columbus Bell Labs/Western Electric plant bought them through > employee discounts - we were all part of a county-wide UUCP network in > the days before ISPs and dialup PPP links were common. Later, many of > the 7300s were gradually replaced by 386s running Interactive UNIX, > which I _could_ afford). > >> And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! > > Was there ever an attempt made at a replacement, or was the nature of > the machine (i.e., closed-source controlled by AT&T) such that > user-initiated projects were doomed to fail? At a hardware level, there is sufficient information available to produce some sort of "combo" card. However, to the best of my knowledge the kernel sources never leaked out. Without that, I think the chances of producing a robust TCP stack are about zeo. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 15:35:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:35:26 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5B59E.10134.1143B55@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 22:50, Jonno Downes wrote: > Does anything there look familiar to anyone at all? this would be some > kind of terminal from early to mid 70s. Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 15:30:23 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:23 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Off the top of my head I think I am going to have to get another Linux >> box and dumb that down, if it is possible. Dumbing Linux down to turn >> off the features and then restoring it to a good state is probably >> safer/easier than doing it with Windows. > I doubt that would help you either. If you read through the TCP specs, > you'll find how the path MTU, and thus MSS is determined. And I doubt > you can turn those knobs off. PMTUD is done through ICMP. If you prevent the ICMP packets involved from going through, you can stop PMTUD from working. Peace... Sridhar From mike at fenz.net Wed Oct 13 18:23:15 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:23:15 +1300 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - =?UTF-8?Q?interesting/boring/rare/common=2E=2E=2E=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Hey everyone, I listed what I thought was a couple of slightly unusual but not very notable Amiga machines on a local New Zealand auction site; since then, I've been getting people telling me that the Phoenix machine is actually quite interesting. Any Amiga expert type people out there know anything significant about these? The concept of an Australian-made Amiga motherboard is curious I suppose... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=323578939 Probably not terrible self-promotion I hope, as I don't think anyone on this list is likely to be bidding on TradeMe! I'm just curious about the machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing familiarity with them. Mike From fjgjr1 at aol.com Wed Oct 13 20:11:42 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:11:42 -0400 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Check model airplane sites on Google - I recall this is an " old technique " they used a lot.- check also the particular glues they recommend - there were a lot of them 10 - 20 years ago - many new ones now I believe - need to be careful obviously - do not want to glue body parts together !!! I use to do model airplanes until I got into vintage computers ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, Oct 13, 2010 9:55 am Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then > >running a soldering iron along the joint. On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: > What does that do? Heat helps it? Welding the joint at the surface. Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup ollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler f small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for anding and paint. - John From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:31:15 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:31:15 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: I'm just curious about the > machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing > familiarity with them. http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=46 Definitly worth picking up if you can as they really are rare and not ebay-rare. I'd love to have one. As far as functionality is concerned, there's nothing there that you wouldn't get with a garden variety amiga 2000 with some upgraded custom chips. But getting that board in an a1000 form factor has some serious cool-factor. I think you can still find right-angle zorro adapters that might allow you to fit a memory board, a buddha, or deneb board in there. 68k socket processor upgrades would probably work also. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:36:50 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:36:50 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >68k socket > processor upgrades would probably work also. Scratch that. The 68k chip location is terrible. Although I think someone made 68010 upgrades with faster clock rates that weren't much bigger than the original 68k. And maybe am a1000 processor upgrade side-car with a 68030 could be found... but hen's teeth. If you get this, you need to track down one of these also: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 You can put an 8-bit hardcard and video card in there along with the floppy drive. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 13 20:39:36 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:39:36 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. On Oct 13, 2010, at 8:31 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > I'm just curious about the >> machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing >> familiarity with them. > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=46 > > Definitly worth picking up if you can as they really are rare and not > ebay-rare. I'd love to have one. As far as functionality is > concerned, there's nothing there that you wouldn't get with a garden > variety amiga 2000 with some upgraded custom chips. But getting that > board in an a1000 form factor has some serious cool-factor. I think > you can still find right-angle zorro adapters that might allow you to > fit a memory board, a buddha, or deneb board in there. 68k socket > processor upgrades would probably work also. > > brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:50:09 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:50:09 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. The amiga-hardware page says it could be configurable as 1meg chip and 1meg fast or 2meg chip. You definitely want the 2meg chip configuration > They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. It says 500 to 1000 in australia. Probably next to none here. brian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 13 20:59:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 02:59:22 +0100 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> On 14/10/10 02:11, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: > > Check model airplane sites on Google - I recall this is an " old > technique " they used a lot.- check also the particular glues they > recommend - there were a lot of them 10 - 20 years ago - many new > ones now I believe - need to be careful obviously - do not want to > glue body parts together !!! Oh, cyanoacrylates are fun! Especially... * Sticking things together with them, then realising you need to do make a few 'final adjustments' with a power tool. Hit it with the Dremel... and you get a cloud of dust and fume which makes chopping onions seem like a fun occupation! * Gluing your fingers to whatever you're working on, the desk, the drill, etc. Thank $DEITY for acetone, Pacer Z7 Debonder and Swarfega! * The inevitable splattering. Thin CA mixes are evil. Thicker mixes (like ZAP Thick-CA) not so much. * Exothermic reactions when you glue your fingers together, then immediately hit them with debonder. That's right kids, the debonder acts as a partially-effective accelerant... Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a lot slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and Milliput epoxy putty on hand... But yeah, the bicarb-and-superglue trick works great. Just make sure you use a thin CA mix, the thicker ones don't work as well, and Superglue Gel doesn't work at all if memory serves. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 21:23:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:23:42 -0700 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> References: , <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com>, <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CB6073E.2704.2531399@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 2:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: > But yeah, the bicarb-and-superglue trick works great. Just make sure > you use a thin CA mix, the thicker ones don't work as well, and > Superglue Gel doesn't work at all if memory serves. ABS, PVC and polycarbonate are much easier to stick together with methylene chloride--and if done right, the joint is invisible, even with clear stock. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 14 00:16:18 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:16:18 -0400 Subject: I-mode phone Message-ID: <4CB69222.6060304@snarc.net> A curator at the Computer History Museum needs to borrow (or obtain) a first-gen I-mode cell phone. This is for a long-term exhibit on the history of portable computing. I'm involved in the project, so I offered to ask around, including here on cctalk. However they need is * quickly *. If anybody has one they're willing to part with, please email me off-list ASAP. From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 00:15:08 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:15:08 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: >Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. > >--Chuck I cant find a full spec for that terminal, just termcap entries, and a field service manual for a "mini bee" that I think is related, but neither seem to fit beyond potential use of "unit seperator (0x1F) as a "new line" marker (although even that seems a bit iffy, since the 1F is followed by 0D 0A, i.e. CR/LF) I realised I didn't post any actual 'escape' sequences, just uses of control codes I haven't seen much use of before (US,GS, DC2, DC4). The escape sequences I see are: HEX ASCII 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 00:38:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:38:16 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB634D8.2080.305375C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 16:15, Jonno Downes wrote: > > The escape sequences I see are: > HEX ASCII > 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ > 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' > 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! > > where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being > values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at > runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) Th 1F for a newline (it was that on the SuperBee which used an 8008; the MiniBee is more of a "dumb" terminal) is what I mostly remember. So the 1F above is used as the escape character and not hex 1B? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 07:50:16 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:50:16 -0500 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a lot > slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and Milliput > epoxy putty on hand... Did they change the formula for Araldite at some point? I remember it being great stuff when I was a kid, but then when I used it in more recent years it just didn't seem as good. Various other substances seem to have suffered over the years due to replacing of harmful chemicals in them with less-harmful counterparts which don't work as well, but I'm not sure if that's why Araldite didn't seem as good. I've not found a really good off-the-shelf epoxy here in the US yet - various ones that are OK, but not as robust* as I'd like. * Although I did patch a damaged cylinder bore with some a few weeks ago as a test - so far so good. It should take the maximum temperature, but whether the heating/cooling cycles or oil contact eventually kills it remains to be seen. If it dies, it's out with the chemical metal :-) cheers Jules From doc at vaxen.net Thu Oct 14 07:53:39 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:53:39 -0500 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB6FD53.6090505@vaxen.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a >> lot slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and >> Milliput epoxy putty on hand... > > Did they change the formula for Araldite at some point? I remember it > being great stuff when I was a kid, but then when I used it in more > recent years it just didn't seem as good. Various other substances seem > to have suffered over the years due to replacing of harmful chemicals in > them with less-harmful counterparts which don't work as well, but I'm > not sure if that's why Araldite didn't seem as good. > > I've not found a really good off-the-shelf epoxy here in the US yet - > various ones that are OK, but not as robust* as I'd like. Brownell's AcraGlas. It's sold as a bedding epoxy for rifles, but it's classic slow setting 2-part resin epoxy. Shelf life is rated at 10 years and holding life rated at 50. Doc From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 14 09:03:20 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:03:20 -0700 Subject: new vintage web site Message-ID: <4CB70DA8.6010902@att.net> FYI 10 SEPT 2010: MARYLAND INSTITUTE FOR TECHNOLOGY IN THE HUMANITIES (MITH) LAUNCHES VINTAGE COMPUTING SITE: MITH is very pleased to announce a new Web site devoted to its sizable (and growing) collection of vintage computers, retro software, and other artifacts from the early era of personal computing. The centerpiece of the site is a a considered metadata and modeling approach to computing hardware, whereby individual components of the vintage machines are documented, contextualized within their relation to the system as a whole, and expressed using Dublin Core. The site gathers links to other recent MITH projects in born-digital cultural heritage, and serves as a clearing house for our expanding portfolio in this area. It also includes newly written non-specialist's documentation for the FC5025 Floppy Disk Controller, a device used to retrieve data off of obsolescent media formats. The site is presented using the content management tool Omeka. It was researched and designed by Walker Sampson, who recently completed an MLS from the School of Information at the University of Texas; Sampson was in residence at MITH this past summer under the auspices of the IMLS-sponsored Digital Humanities Model Internship Program. MITH's Associate Director Matthew Kirschenbaum comments, "This site demonstrates the role that vintage computing can have in the environment of an active digital humanities center; as born-digital cultural heritage becomes ever more important, centers such as MITH will play a part alongside of libraries and archives in addressing its long-term presentation and curation." SOURCE:http://mith.umd.edu/mith-launches-vintage-computing-site/ From jam at magic.com Thu Oct 14 09:34:06 2010 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> > >Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. > > > >--Chuck > > I cant find a full spec for that terminal, just termcap entries, and a > field service manual for a "mini bee" that I think is related, but > neither seem to fit beyond potential use of "unit seperator (0x1F) as > a "new line" marker (although even that seems a bit iffy, since the > 1F is followed by 0D 0A, i.e. CR/LF) > > I realised I didn't post any actual 'escape' sequences, just uses of > control codes I haven't seen much use of before (US,GS, DC2, DC4). The "device control" codes appear to have their familiar uses: DC1 = ctrl-Q = reader on DC2 = ctrl-R = punch on DC3 = ctrl-S = reader off DC4 = ctrl-T = punch off However, it isn't yet clear whether the device being used is truly a reader/punch, or that these codes are used for some analogous purpose to turn on/off read/write of another device. > The escape sequences I see are: > HEX ASCII > 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ > 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' > 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! > > where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being > values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at > runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) The first value is hex 1B, of course (not 1F). The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte records). x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) y is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) James Markevitch From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 10:04:00 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:04:00 -0400 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On 10/13/10, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to > use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and > support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. > > They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. Over here, we had The Rejuvinator - http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/rejuvenator I brought a couple of Amiga 1000s to VCFmw - one with a Spirit Inboard (memory and RTC), the other with a Rejuvinator and a Microbotics Starboard (memory) and Stardrive (SCSI and RTC). Unfortunately, it's been a while since I powered up an A1000 and the best I got was a Guru screen on one of them (no Kickstart prompt on the one, no Workbench on the other). In terms of features, an A1000 motherboard+Rejuvnator was like a Phoenix (ECS chipset, more CHIP RAM, Kickstart in ROM...) but it was a bit ugly to install vs a total mobo replacement. I've never seen a Phoenix over here, but since the Rejuvinator designer lived in Dayton (90 minutes away from me) I did see plenty of Rejuvinators in Ohio. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 14 10:13:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kosssow) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:13:28 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CB71E18.1060402@bitsavers.org> On 10/12/10 9:02 PM, nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). Had a quick look at the pictures. It is NOT a file server. The power cable he took a picture of is for a second Diablo 31 drive. SN 4472 sounds familiar, it may have come from me at some point. Interesting that he has two units. The Ball Brothers sticker sounds like this was a monitor test unit that Xerox sent there. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 10:22:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:22:04 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> References: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> Message-ID: <4CB6BDAC.14098.28F8C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 7:34, James A. Markevitch wrote: > The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte > records). x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) y is an ASCII digit (30 - > 39 hex) z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) I owned a Techtran dual-casette data drive around that time that was a type of replacement for a paper tape unit. ISTR that it could transfer at the truly stunning speed of 2400 bps. It could do record search, skipping, copying, etc. all under software control (special "escape" codes). Sadly I no longer have the documentation for it. Maybe Al has some information on these old units. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 10:31:22 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB71E18.1060402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> While I would like one of these, I couldn't own it. First of all I see this unit going for serious $$$. This computer is rare, very few of these running around and it's historical significance makes it highly sought after. Also this unit is big.. So if you already have your storage spaces filled, you WILL have to let go of some items to fit this in.. I would have to get go of either my fridge or couch. I see two types of people getting this 1. Serious collectors with big pockets 2. Museums I am watching it just to see how much it goes for and who gets it. I would like to see something like this in a museum where they could light it up and we can see the original GUI. From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 03:21:49 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 19:21:49 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just took a look at the 4010 manual, and realised that US (0x1F) selects 'alpha mode' and GS (0x1D) selects graphics mode. The very first char output by the prom is US, followed by CR/LF then '?' - it would make sense that the monitor sets alpha mode first. this sequence also looks like it is using graph mode to position the cursor, then flicks and to alpha mode to print a char, back to graphics to move cursor back to where it was, and (over)prints a different char. I haven't yet worked out whether 0x12 and 0x14 in alpha mode displays a custom graphic, but might be some kind of flashing cursor 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 12 DC2 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 14 DC4 not sure what these are though: 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 12:12:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a > Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory > expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be > about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots > could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). There is plenty of I/O address space available. Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. A wire-wrap board won't fit into the computer itself; it took up three slots of an expansion box. One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 12:18:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:18:39 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB73B6F.9060407@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > > At a hardware level, there is sufficient information available to > produce some sort of "combo" card. However, to the best of my > knowledge the kernel sources never leaked out. Without that, I think > the chances of producing a robust TCP stack are about zeo. However, the ".o" files for the kernel were available, which makes it somewhat more practical to hack than a linked kernel. At one time I was met someone who had the kernel sources, but was of course unable to give them to me. Eric From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 14 12:40:02 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:40:02 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> more on the project: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11530905 steve On 10/5/2010 11:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/5/10 10:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > > yeah.. and I want a pony > > > > I would be REALLY nice to Doron Swade, if I were him. > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 12:43:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:43:49 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a >> Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI... > There is plenty of I/O address space available. Unsurprising (given 16MB of range), but good to have confirmed. > Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to be an issue. > I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? > A wire-wrap board won't fit into the computer itself; it took up three slots of an expansion box. That can be addressed with a real PCB prototype, but I probably wouldn't personally invest in a run of boards until driver issues were addressed. > One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin > three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember > correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but > perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors > into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the > connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. That is unfortunate - enough to make the whole process difficult. Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets are still available. ;-) -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 12:51:31 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:51:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_be_built=27_=2D?= =?windows-1252?Q?_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: I heard the guy running that project on TWiT. Apparently Babbage was building the original machine to automate figuring out logarithm tables for engineering books at the time. It was all done by hand back then, and I guess there were a lot of errors. That's what the difference engine was for. Then he thought about adding feedback to the difference engine, and the first modern computer design was born (the analytical engine, which is what this project wants to build.) Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 14 13:00:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:00:35 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: <4CB74543.7090907@snarc.net> > Apparently Babbage was building the original machine to automate figuring out logarithm tables for > engineering books at the time. It was all done by hand back then, and I guess there were a lot of errors. That's what the difference engine was for. Then he thought about adding feedback to the difference engine, and the first modern computer design was born (the analytical engine, which is what this project wants to build.) Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. Indeed. I recommend reading Swade's book, "The Cogwheel Brain" .... it's very good. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 13:04:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:04:37 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 1:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: >> Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >>> It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a >>> Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI... > >> There is plenty of I/O address space available. > > Unsurprising (given 16MB of range), but good to have confirmed. > >> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. > > That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as > found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to > be an issue. Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) >> One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin >> three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember >> correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but >> perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors >> into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the >> connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. > > That is unfortunate - enough to make the whole process difficult. > Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets > are still available. ;-) The main board of a 7300/3B1 is on the bottom of the machine, and my very vague memory from 20+ years ago says it might actually be component-side down. If this is actually the case, it'd likely be too tight in there for such a daughterboard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:18:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:18:19 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/10 1:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. >> >> That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as >> found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to >> be an issue. > > Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) Yeah... well... even so, the 5380, while trivial to hang off of a CPU, is not known for performance. Without a DMA engine, it might not be worth involving the 33C93 (for which there are probably fewer driver examples to borrow from). >> Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets >> are still available. ;-) > > The main board of a 7300/3B1 is on the bottom of the machine, and my > very vague memory from 20+ years ago says it might actually be > component-side down. If this is actually the case, it'd likely be too > tight in there for such a daughterboard. Ah... hadn't considered that arrangement. If that's true (I can't check myself), then that method is untenable (well... one could blow a hole in the case bottom and put the machine up on pegs...) I was more expecting that the CPU was under the PSU or the drive bay or otherwise cramped from the top. OK... next idea... a MC68010L-sized PCB with room for a MC68010FN (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/Motorola-MC68010FN10.html) and an SMT 5380. Sort of a "no slot clock" kinda of arrangement (same footprint, but perhaps only slightly thicker). The next most difficult thing to do would be to figure out how to get the SCSI signals off the board. Probably have to be a multi-layer board to get all the signals to all the right pins. The bonus would be that it would likely work in many, many MC68K machines (depending on the orientation of the off-board SCSI pins). -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:49:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:49:16 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_be_built=27_=2D?= =?windows-1252?Q?_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: > Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. Too far ahead of his time for England, and too stubborn as well. Apparently he was not entirely a nice guy to work for. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 15:51:44 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote: >> I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. >> > Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did > you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? > I was working from scratch, and was finding debugging to be exceedingly difficult. These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator would be even better.) > Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets > are still available. ;-) > > Yes, and there is enough clearance (barely) to fit such a thing in, though the MC68010 might have to be soldered in place as their might not be enough clearance for socketed components on the daughterboard. Eric From mike at fenz.net Thu Oct 14 15:52:21 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 09:52:21 +1300 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - =?UTF-8?Q?interesting/boring/rare/common=2E=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2E=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5e2a1ce543f9bcc345a56210fd1167a2@vodafone.co.nz> Well, it's good to know that the machine is something moderately interesting, anyway. Seemed it from the quick research I did. Hopefully it goes to someone who'll find it useful; with this talk about the thing, I have to resist thoughts along the lines of 'I should have kept it and done xyz with it.' I did have both an A500 and A2000 back when they were current, but for some reason the platform hasn't held so much interest for me down the years. I think that it may have been just too capable; the limitations of earlier (and sometimes later) systems seem to make them more interesting somehow. Strange. Mike On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:04:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Over here, we had The Rejuvinator - > http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/rejuvenator > > I brought a couple of Amiga 1000s to VCFmw - one with a Spirit Inboard > (memory and RTC), the other with a Rejuvinator and a Microbotics > Starboard (memory) and Stardrive (SCSI and RTC). Unfortunately, it's > been a while since I powered up an A1000 and the best I got was a Guru > screen on one of them (no Kickstart prompt on the one, no Workbench on > the other). > > In terms of features, an A1000 motherboard+Rejuvnator was like a > Phoenix (ECS chipset, more CHIP RAM, Kickstart in ROM...) but it was a > bit ugly to install vs a total mobo replacement. I've never seen a > Phoenix over here, but since the Rejuvinator designer lived in Dayton > (90 minutes away from me) I did see plenty of Rejuvinators in Ohio. > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:23:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:23:46 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote: >>> I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. >>> >> Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did >> you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? >> > > I was working from scratch, and was finding debugging to be exceedingly > difficult. Indeed. I've done communication device driver work in the past - and seen many kernel panics - it was fun back then - your terminal session rhythm would go "off" as your process was no longer being serviced, then there'd be the tell-tale chatter of the console printer reporting the unhappiness followed by a 20 minute dump and reboot cycle. Some things are better left in the past. > These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good > logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator > would be even better.) Something like that, I do happen to have (a Northwest Instruments "Satellite" bus analyzer that can capture and store the last 4096 bus cycles... it was $20K when it was new, but I got to keep it when the company doors closed. I've found it quite handy for debugging hardware and hardware/firmware issues. I haven't fired it up in a few years - this thread reminds me I should check it - the sampler box is no doubt fine, I'm sure, but the "head" is an IBM 5150 PC with an ST225 - I'm anticipating stiction issues.). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 16:38:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:38:48 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 2:18 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. >>> >>> That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as >>> found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to >>> be an issue. >> >> Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) > > Yeah... well... even so, the 5380, while trivial to hang off of a CPU, > is not known for performance. Without a DMA engine, it might not be > worth involving the 33C93 (for which there are probably fewer driver > examples to borrow from). Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. > OK... next idea... a MC68010L-sized PCB with room for a MC68010FN > (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/Motorola-MC68010FN10.html) and an > SMT 5380. Sort of a "no slot clock" kinda of arrangement (same > footprint, but perhaps only slightly thicker). The next most > difficult thing to do would be to figure out how to get the SCSI > signals off the board. Probably have to be a multi-layer board to get > all the signals to all the right pins. The bonus would be that it > would likely work in many, many MC68K machines (depending on the > orientation of the off-board SCSI pins). I like that idea! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:44:39 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:44:39 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly display everything that they have, can't afford to completely restore everything, can't afford to keep everything in perfect storage conditions etc., so sometimes I think that things are far better off in private hands, if they can go to someone who will look after a system, or fix it, or make sure it eventually passes on to a good home. (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat an item nicely) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:49:56 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:49:56 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CB77B04.2000704@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > Also this unit is big.. So if you already have your storage spaces filled, > you WILL have to let go of some items to fit this in.. > > I would have to get go of either my fridge or couch. I don't think it'd work as a fridge, but it looks like it would be possible to put a cushion on top and sit on it. Lose the couch. ;-) > 1. Serious collectors with big pockets 2. Museums I've never found that many museums with deep pockets, unfortunately. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 14 17:28:18 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:28:18 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:45 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > off > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't > possibly > display everything that they have, can't afford to completely restore > everything, can't afford to keep everything in perfect storage > conditions > etc., so sometimes I think that things are far better off in private > hands, if > they can go to someone who will look after a system, or fix it, or make > sure > it eventually passes on to a good home. I was at the Rodin museum in Paris and hoped to see a piece that a friend had photographed. They informed me that the collection is about five times what will fit on display at any one time, and the piece I wanted to see was in storage. :-( I was particularly interested in this bronze because it looks uncannily like me (which is why my friend took the photo), and I wanted to get a photo of the two of us side by side. Ah well, I guess I'll have to go back to Paris sometime.... -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 18:00:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:00:58 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good > starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of > course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. Be careful, though. The Linux driver is GPL'd, and thus license-incompatible with the SYSV kernel. I imagine that the xBSD folks probably have some sort of 5380 driver, and it might be better to use that as the starting point. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 18:05:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 19:05:32 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB78CBC.5010000@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 7:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good >> starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of >> course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. > > Be careful, though. The Linux driver is GPL'd, and thus > license-incompatible with the SYSV kernel. I imagine that the xBSD folks > probably have some sort of 5380 driver, and it might be better to use > that as the starting point. Ah. Eh. I am most decidedly in the mood to completely ignore any legalese shovelings lately. But your point is well-taken. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 18:09:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:09:58 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CB72B56.6266.1D660A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 15:28, Ian King wrote: > I was at the Rodin museum in Paris and hoped to see a piece that a > friend had photographed. They informed me that the collection is > about five times what will fit on display at any one time, and the > piece I wanted to see was in storage. :-( I was particularly > interested in this bronze because it looks uncannily like me (which is > why my friend took the photo), and I wanted to get a photo of the two > of us side by side. Ah well, I guess I'll have to go back to Paris > sometime.... Or you could check behind your sofa: http://ind.pn/9WWils --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 15 00:54:03 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable Message-ID: I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:49:48 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:49:48 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: >The "device control" codes appear to have their familiar uses: > >DC1 = ctrl-Q = reader on >DC2 = ctrl-R = punch on >DC3 = ctrl-S = reader off >DC4 = ctrl-T = punch off >However, it isn't yet clear whether the device being used is truly a >reader/punch, or that these codes are used for some analogous purpose >to turn on/off read/write of another device. That would (to me at least) seem inconsistent with my theory that this is a dialect of Tektronix 4010 control codes - I can't work out any sensible interpretation of the sequence 1) 1D Group Separator 2) 37 7 3) 7F DEL 4) 20 SPACE 5) 40 @ 6) 1F Unit Separator 7) 12 DC2 8) 1D Group Separator 9) 37 7 10) 7F DEL 11) 20 SPACE 12) 40 @ 13) 1F Unit Separator 14) 14 DC4 that would allow for lines 1-6 and 8-13 to be both graphics control codes (positioning the cursor) and lines 7 & 14 to be turning a device on & off. of course, I may be tracing the execution flow wrong, and there could be errors in the dump... >> The escape sequences I see are: >> HEX ASCII >> 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ >> 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' >> 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! >> >> where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being >> values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at >> runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) >The first value is hex 1B, of course (not 1F). yes - my bad! >The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte records). >x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) >y is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) >z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:59:37 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good >> logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator >> would be even better.) > > Something like that, I do happen to have (a Northwest Instruments > "Satellite" bus analyzer that can capture and store the last 4096 bus > cycles... it was $20K when it was new, but I got to keep it when the > company doors closed. I've found it quite handy for debugging > hardware and hardware/firmware issues. I haven't fired it up in a few > years - this thread reminds me I should check it - the sampler box is > no doubt fine, I'm sure, but the "head" is an IBM 5150 PC with an > ST225 - I'm anticipating stiction issues.). Have you looked at the Intronix Logicport analyzer? A 500 Mhz. 34-channel USB connected unit for $389. I'm sorely tempted to pick one up. http://www.pctestinstruments.com Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:22:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:22:10 -0300 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable References: Message-ID: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> > I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable > and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare > keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors into the cable I had one, and had to make the cable :) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 15 08:00:10 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:00:10 -0500 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded connectors. On Oct 15, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? > > You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors into the cable > > I had one, and had to make the cable :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 15 08:12:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: from Geoff Oltmans at "Oct 15, 10 08:00:10 am" Message-ID: <201010151312.o9FDCAMo012266@floodgap.com> > I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded > connectors. Yes, the original connector is indeed like that. One of my SXs didn't have the keyboard cable, however, so I got a ribbon DB-25 straight thru and made one. I did have to file down the edges to get it to fix in the computer, though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 08:29:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:29:18 -0300 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: <008d01cb6c75$d4a8d940$da3d58bb@portajara> >I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded >connectors. http://www.tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 15:30:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:30:11 -0400 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: On 10/15/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable >> and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare >> keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? > > You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. If it fits, yes (the cavity in the SX can be a bit tight). The wiring is not elaborate. > The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. No it isn't. I have an original - the hood on the SX-end is a bit odd to fit into the connector cavity and leave you room to press the cable into the machine, it doesn't have the "ears" of a regular serial cable (it's all friction-fit, no screws on either end) and the cable is round. > You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors > into the cable Yes. You can make a replacement with IDC connectors, just like the link you posted later, but it's not an original cable. Here is a link to a photo of the original cable... http://www.geekvintage.com/commodore-sx-64-keyboard-cable.php ... but it will be easier to make one with a flat cable. I just wish I had a way to repair damaged SX keyboard internals... I have a keyboard that was "fixed" by the previous owner. Several of the keys are dead now. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 15:02:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:02:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 14, 10 04:44:39 pm Message-ID: > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned ASAP. My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) Particularly as hackers (in the origianl sense) are not often well-paid, if they can find a job at all. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 15 16:23:01 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:23:01 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> I agree, I loaned my Yellow Computer Space to Barbican in the UK for their GameOn exhibit, it came back with its original TV set ruined and they CUT the HV line and other wires inside!!!!!!!!!!! I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have a respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. Tony Duell wrote: >> Teo Zenios wrote: >> >>> There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off >>> in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. >>> >> There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly >> > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > ASAP. > > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person >> with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat >> an item nicely) >> > > Particularly as hackers (in the origianl sense) are not often well-paid, > if they can find a job at all. > > -tony > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:52:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:52:10 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would > only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have a > respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. This is the problem - not very many computer "museums" are real museums, or even act like real museums. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 15 17:13:27 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:13:27 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: Message-ID: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > -tony I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will tinker with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot fix it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the information about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each time that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you have the possibility of it getting destroyed, a decent museum will keep it from rotting so that generations from now somebody can go back and learn from it (using high tech science to see its layers without trashing it). Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years until a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the stone ages. Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken parts like in star trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next 1000 years. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 15 17:19:13 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:19:13 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) >> I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would >> only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have >> a >> respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. > > This is the problem - not very many computer "museums" are real > museums, or even act like real museums. > > -- > Will They do serve the function of keeping very large items nobody can store at home from getting recycled, which is good enough for now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:57:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:57:26 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > They do serve the function of keeping very large items nobody can store at > home from getting recycled, which is good enough for now. Yes, and many are decent organizations. "For now" is a good way to put it. I would rather not start another MUSEUMS SUCK! thread. We have said everything many times before. Some people just can not change their views. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 15 19:52:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> Message-ID: <20101015175155.Q64411@shell.lmi.net> > Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years until > a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the stone ages. > Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken parts like in star > trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next 1000 years. How is it coming with replicas of the Antikytheran device? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 15 19:58:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not all museums suck. (Was: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20101015175638.M64411@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I would rather not start another MUSEUMS SUCK! thread. We have said > everything many times before. Some people just can not change their > views. A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill or is that "Subject:" ? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 15 20:04:58 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:04:58 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview Message-ID: For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants to build the Analytical Engine. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:08:14 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 3B1 tech ref scans Message-ID: I have finished scanning both binders. Please contact me private e-mail if you are interested in them. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 15 17:41:22 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:41:22 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> On 10/15/2010 3:13 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:02 PM > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > > >> My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare >> machine to >> produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts >> would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely >> to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing >> community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. >> -tony > > I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will > tinker with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the > screen or printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up > and cannot fix it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect > all the information about that rare device and keep it intact until > some later generation has the need or desire to see what made it tick. > The key difference is each time that rarity passes hands to another > collector things get lost and you have the possibility of it getting > destroyed, a decent museum will keep it from rotting so that > generations from now somebody can go back and learn from it (using > high tech science to see its layers without trashing it). > such museums are rare. for the most parts museums (and libraries) operate as businesses and need customers and income. They will make or rent exhibits that generate traffic. they rarely place a lot of emphasis on the longevity of every little bit that could exist in their sphere of influence. the rare exceptions are such as the CHM and the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian is picky about what it takes, but preserves artifacts quite meticulously. The CHM has a lot of nice stuff, and from what I've seen preserves what it accepts quite well. I mentioned libraries, because they are at the bottom of the food chain in my book. There are countless elaborate collections of books dispursed to the far winds by clueless librarians. The rare exception and model you would think would exist is a person like Al Kossow. He is the rare archivist, who has the mission to save the software and ephemera of computing, and actually knows what he is doing. Most librarians, and such operations as almost any "Discovery Museum" or such has the mission to bring in bodies and collect money. the rare well finance serious collector probably is the best hope for your rarities if you pass them on, as most of the museums frequently already have what they need, and won't take say the complete apple collection from the Newton to the latest Macintosh LC3. > Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years > until a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the > stone ages. Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken > parts like in star trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next > 1000 years. > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 16 03:40:50 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:40:50 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / > tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants > to build the Analytical Engine. > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a Saturn V. And I want a pony. From andy at flirble.org Sat Oct 16 06:35:47 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:35:47 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and track record? You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in case you wondered. And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > ASAP. To the gallows with him! So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for future generations. But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Oct 16 06:51:10 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> My ICT 1301 restoration is now officially a working group of the Computer Conservation Society. The Science Museum's Ferranti Pegasus and Elliott 401 have been shut down for over 18 months and the Harwell Witch project has not returned the machine to a working state yet. Though I don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in the late 1950s). I'm sure some of you know of earlier machines which can still run programs, even if the peripherals don't all work. I would like to establish if mine is the oldest in the UK, in Europe or whatever and where it stands in the world rankings, like is it in the top ten? It looks like the IBM 1620 in the states is probably older but when was that particular machine (rather than the type) first installed? The 1401 of course is another candidate but I think the particular one being restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. There is an older machine in Australia which was working but apparently it too is currently has not run for some time. Many museums seem to be either afraid of damaging their machine by powering them up or unwilling to pay the operating expenses (electricity, paper, paper tape, punched cards etc). There are machines like the ICT1200/HEC in museums here in the UK but no plans to restore them, and the very early machines were broken up years ago and the CCS has been building replicas of several, including the Manchester Baby. Can anyone on the list help with details of working machine of the first and second generation? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 16 08:45:28 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:45:28 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI Message-ID: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI adapter. I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in this partial extract from the console: >>>sh dev dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: >>>sh dev dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: >>>sh dev waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE >>> I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. Anyone have any clues? Thanks Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 16 10:32:31 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:32:31 -0700 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Is there a SCSI terminator on the back of the shelf? I can't get to any of my BA356 shelves to look, but I have used BA350's a lot and they have a terminator hidden by one of the fans. BTW, I tried to get a BA356 running on my 433au, and never succeeded, I used BA350's till upgrading to Andataco JBOD boxes. I was never able to determine if the issue was with the 433au or the BA356 (my 433au has some fairly serious issues including a dead PCI slot, but was still stable if configured right). Zane At 2:45 PM +0100 10/16/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality >module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The >pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable >has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on >the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a >terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my >433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to >locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI >adapter. > >I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. >Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to >the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in >this partial extract from the console: > >>>>sh dev >dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 >dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 >dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 >dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 >dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 >dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 >dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 >dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > >Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > >>>>sh dev >dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > >>>>sh dev >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE >>>> > >I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality >module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality >module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter >that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. > >Anyone have any clues? > >Thanks > >Rob -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 16 10:52:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kosssow) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:52:08 -0700 Subject: another alto on ebay Message-ID: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> 110599066440 Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but you can't tell anything from the listing picture From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 16 11:06:14 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:06:14 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010501cb6d4c$106f41e0$314dc5a0$@ntlworld.com> Yes, there is a terminator behind one of the fans. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 16 October 2010 16:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI > > Is there a SCSI terminator on the back of the shelf? I can't get to any of my > BA356 shelves to look, but I have used BA350's a lot and they have a > terminator hidden by one of the fans. > > BTW, I tried to get a BA356 running on my 433au, and never succeeded, I > used BA350's till upgrading to Andataco JBOD boxes. I was never able to > determine if the issue was with the 433au or the BA356 (my 433au has some > fairly serious issues including a dead PCI slot, but was still stable if configured > right). > > Zane > > > > At 2:45 PM +0100 10/16/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The > >personality module has two high density connectors on it, I think they > >are 68-pin. The pins are too small for me to be able to count them > >reliably, but the cable has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other > >end. The second connector on the personality module is not connected to > >anything, I do not have a terminator for it and I am unsure if I need > >one. I have connected this to my 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI > >adapter in it. I have been unable to locate any documentation for > >either the personality module or the SCSI adapter. > > > >I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. > >Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected > >to the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as > >shown in this partial extract from the console: > > > >>>>sh dev > >dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 > >dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 > >dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 > >dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 > >dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 > >dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 > >dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 > >dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > > > >Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > > > >>>>sh dev > >dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 > >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > > > >When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > > > >>>>sh dev > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >>>> > > > >I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the > >personality module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the > >second personality module connector, or whether there are some jumpers > >on the QLA1040 adapter that need to be set, or is there something else I > need to do. > > > >Anyone have any clues? > > > >Thanks > > > >Rob > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 16 11:42:28 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware & software docs instead of being mixed together. http://www.retroarchive.org tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 16 13:06:00 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:06:00 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:35:47 +0100 From: Andrew Back Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > > > off > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't > > possibly > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and track record? You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in case you wondered. ... So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for future generations. But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. Andrew --------------- REPLY: Whoa! Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;" how did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that? And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make. Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with people" on here with your name on them... Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in the HP community and elsewhere (even if his rants are a little repetitive at times) ;-) Sheesh! mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 16 14:13:44 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (BHilpert) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:13:44 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <97cc2e97c89be9737e197eaffc9d416c@cs.ubc.ca> On 16-Oct-10, at 1:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / >> tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that >> wants to build the Analytical Engine. >> > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build > a Saturn V. And I want a pony. .. yes .. Going from those online articles we've already seen, I suspect it's all about fundraising. Don't know what happened, but I didn't hear the interview. I heard a quick announcement of it in the 5:30 or 6:00 break in the programming, which prompted my msg to the list, but then .. nothing. Don't know whether I misheard the schedule, they changed the schedule, or if it's still coming up at some time. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 13:40:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:40:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Oct 15, 10 05:23:01 pm Message-ID: > > I agree, I loaned my Yellow Computer Space to Barbican in the UK for > their GameOn exhibit, it came back with its original TV set ruined and > they CUT the HV line and other wires inside!!!!!!!!!!! Ouch!. As an aside, I've heard that you should never lend anything rare/valuable as a prop for film/television. There have been too many cases where the object has been essentailly ruined, and while they'll pay you the insured value, taht is hardly what you want (as I have said many times 'Ypu can't hack banknotes'). Not just computers, I've heard of antique furnitrue coming back in a terrible state. > > I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I > would only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak > who have a respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. While I have no problem with demonstrating my machines, and to taking them apart so that other enthusiasts can see the insides, and to letting people use them, I do insist that I am present _all the time_. No exceptions. So yes, if you're, say, restoring an HP9125 plotter, like the one that sold on E-bay rexently for over $2K, and you want to, say, check some signals, then I'll find a way to get mine set up so you can clip your 'scope onto it. But I am not going to lend it to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 15:44:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:44:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 16, 10 01:40:50 am Message-ID: > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > Saturn V. And I want a pony. I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 16:02:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:02:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" at Oct 16, 10 12:35:47 pm Message-ID: > > On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly > > > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to Yes. Plenty of such weeks exist. Like the current one. > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > track record? Hang on a second... I said I had had dealings with some particularly clueless msueums. I did NOT say that all museums are clueless. If you can't understand the difference then I am afraid I regaurd you as somewhat clueless. > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such > sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a > particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be Hang on a second. There is a big diffenrce between criticising somebody becuase of their racial background of beliefs and criticising somebody or some organisation because of what they do. It is completely wrong to, say, attack priests or burn down churches, or anything like that. But I have no problem with a statement of the form 'I disagree with $religion on $matter'. I am not advocating any form of harm or damage to computer museums or the people who work there. This does not mean I have to approve of everything they do. > tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter > nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we > have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of > people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in > case you wondered. > > And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection > when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is > unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. There are plenty of private collectors who I would be happy to give my collection to. In fact I have already selected one (he knows who it is). > > > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > > ASAP. > > To the gallows with him! Oh come on... A person working in such an institution should be aware of something like that. I wouldn't expect him, say, to know how to repair the printer that produced those printouts, but the fact that they fade is surely well-known to anyone involved in conservation of documents. > > So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted > your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, > you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for > future generations. I am this close {fx : holds up fingers <1mm apart) to making sure I don't contribute anything. That is, I will send e-mails to the Australian HP musuem asking them to stop distributing the 100 or so scheamtics I've produced (many unavailalbe anywwhere else). I will ask that the docuemnts I wrote are removed from bitsavers [1[. I will make sure there are no more CD_ROms of my diagrams. No more distrbituions of my tools to read certain disk on PCs. No more repair tips. No more me running to find amnauls to aswer all the private e-mails I get on how to fix . I can't see I'll be the loser. But no, I won't do that. Becasue I happen to want to help get computers preservedm repaired, restored, and working. [1] Actually, I don't think I ever gave premision for them to be there in the first place. Not that I mind, as far as I am concerned the more people who get information on how to repair old the machines the better. > But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how > clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. I assume you work on some machines that I am not especially interested in (there are many...) which is why I don't recall your work anywhere. Could you enlighten me as to what machine(s) they are? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 15:36:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:36:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 15, 10 06:13:27 pm Message-ID: > > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > -tony > > I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will tinker > with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or Whre did I say anything about modifying it? > printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot fix > it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the information Why do you assume that enthusiasts are going to blow things up, or be unable to fix them? > about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has > the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each time There are several problems with this : 1) The information my not exist, at least not publically. If you need to reverse-engineer a scheamtic, it's a lot easier to do so from a machine that's basically working. 2) ICs fail even if they are not powered up. We all know about bit-rot in EPROMs, but other ICs fail in storage too. It may well be that a machine, however carefulkly it has been stored, will not be available to later genarations. > that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you have Why? If the 2 collectors involved know what they are doing, then nothing will be lost. -tony From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 16:09:12 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:09:12 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBA1478.2000809@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 02:06 PM, MikeS wrote: [[ At first, I thought this would be one of my very rare "Include the whole gosh darned reply" emails instead of trimming out just the relevant parts, but then, I guess I do need to put a few comments interspersed throughout... see where appropriate... ]] > From: Andrew Back > > On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > Teo Zenios wrote: >> > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better >> > > off >> > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. >> > >> > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't >> > possibly >> >> I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly >> clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent >> that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > track record? Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving) historical data & hardware... even I saw that! Admittedly, those that aren't capable, he does highlight (on occasion "to the extreme") but this is *good* information if others were looking to donate their equipment and wanted to avoid individuals or organizations that didn't take good care of donations. > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I happen to be one of them as well.... I'm tired of the pussyfooting & mollycoddling (I hope these terms translate OK to folks who don't speak American) around instead of "saying what is meant" -- If you don't like what I (or ARD by extension) have to say - here's a thought: *don't listen.* The delete key was invented a long time ago for people who don't want to listen... it's your right not to... use it. ;-) In the US we (still.... barely...) have freedom of speech. Some places don't have that. I get that, and I'm OK with that. AFAIK, everybody, no matter where they live, have at least the freedom to *not listen.* > How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? [[ snippage of ad nauseum... whatever... ]] He didn't generalise. He did, however, state that after enough bad interactions with clueless individuals that worked for/with museums (and as most in the US are non-profit, they usually take what free / volunteer help they can get, even if said help is clueless and nearly useless) that no museum would have access to his items. In the US at least, that would be his right. As far as I can tell (and IANAS) what chunks of the Magna Carta that haven't been repealed/rewritten yet also say he can do what he wants with his stuff, at least until the Queen changes her mind... ;-) > But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how > clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least one occasion (probably much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines that he would be reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do. Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire & play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that. I do better than most, worse than some others. Sterling to doughnuts (Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and candlemaking... so on those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to say, I doubt he's offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-) > And here is where Mike's reply begins.... > Whoa! Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! We agree on something? ;-) > Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... > He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;" how > did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that? > > And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't > lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make. > > Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation > of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many > reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with > people" on here with your name on them... And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the info instead of sharing" --> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and as well as he can with the equipment he owns. Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just because his form of help "works around" these limitations, doesn't mean it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-) > Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one > certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in > the HP community and elsewhere Right. I'd never even heard of a "crowbar" that wasn't used for construction demolition before "meeting" ARD. (I've known him for almost 15 years[2], but never met him face-to-face, hence the quotes) > (even if his rants are a little repetitive at times) > ;-) And yes, in those "almost 15 years" I must admit... there has been some repetition. ;-) > Sheesh! Amen, bruddah! I must say, that: 1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-) 2) This email was typed more & more increasingly under the influence of a magical brew called "beer." Things at the top may seem slightly more logical than things near the bottom, depending on your level of sobriety. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" =-=-= [1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England (JCB) & the owner's manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen "Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when your high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-) [2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still part of the "Top 20?" (/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info even available anymore? [3] As was I in the recent past... much to everyone's pleasure. I ain't dead yet, tho! ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 16:12:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> References: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <20101016141105.N96679@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Andrew Back wrote: > And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection > when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is > unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. Face down, nine edge first. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 16:21:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> > > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > > Saturn V. And I want a pony. On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression > over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want > a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have > this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). That is the origin of the phrase "I want a pony.". It has become a figure of speech to refer to any irrational/unubtainable/silly desire. I assume that Eric was using it figuratively, although I'm not in touch with his current projects - nobody has yet launched a pony into space. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I want a time machine. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 16 16:28:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:28:46 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBA190E.6080906@neurotica.com> On 10/16/10 5:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a >>> Saturn V. And I want a pony. > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression >> over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want >> a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have >> this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). > > That is the origin of the phrase "I want a pony.". It has become a figure > of speech to refer to any irrational/unubtainable/silly desire. I assume > that Eric was using it figuratively, although I'm not in touch with his > current projects - nobody has yet launched a pony into space. http://www.funnypicturemarathon.com/pictureView.php?picId=6226 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 16:42:44 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:42:44 -0400 Subject: Mac Classic near death... or at least an OOBE... Message-ID: <4CBA1C54.6020406@30below.com> So, there's a Mac Classic that was dropped off at my friends' store (otherwise headed for the skip/dumpster) and I "rescued" it. Yes, I used quotes, as there was this "weird" bright yellow and purple goo emanating from the unit. Thinking something completely odd was spilled *into* the unit, I took it apart to find the damage. Turns out, the PRAM battery was in such bad shape that it was the source of both the purple (rust & other dissolved metals) and yellow (still not sure what that is) goo. I had to pry the motherboard out of the unit (slightly destructively) due to the corrosion on the rails on one side of the motherboard rails just to remove the motherboard. Whatever was bent can be unbent, but will need a *lot* of cleaning to refurbish. The contacts for the PRAM battery were completely gone on the (+) side, and gosh-darned near gone on the (-) side (enough so that it couldn't be repaired). I removed the PRAM battery & holder (with a pair of pliers as it was also damaged to an unrepairable state). That said, what do I actually do with the thing? My idea: Disassemble the unit and turn it into a 68K "microcontroller" trainer unit with a recent(ish) Flash ROM and Static RAM. Yes, I have the technology to build that. Or... back to the original destination (bad). Anyone want it for price of shipping? And yes, for those "keeping score" I have now built a "Mac Cracker." Do I get a prize for being the "Last Geek Ever" to build one? ;-) Laterz, "Merch" From ken at seefried.com Sat Oct 16 16:48:00 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:48:00 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: > (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet. Shocking. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 17:09:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 18:09:56 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Whoa! > > Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... You just joined the list, I assume. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 16 18:21:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:21:54 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: Message-ID: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) >> > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine >> > to >> > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts >> > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely >> > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing >> > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. >> > -tony >> >> I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will >> tinker >> with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or > > Whre did I say anything about modifying it? > >> printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot >> fix >> it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the >> information > > Why do you assume that enthusiasts are going to blow things up, or be > unable to fix them? > >> about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has >> the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each >> time > > There are several problems with this : > > 1) The information my not exist, at least not publically. If you need to > reverse-engineer a scheamtic, it's a lot easier to do so from a machine > that's basically working. > > 2) ICs fail even if they are not powered up. We all know about bit-rot in > EPROMs, but other ICs fail in storage too. It may well be that a machine, > however carefulkly it has been stored, will not be available to later > genarations. > >> that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you >> have > > Why? If the 2 collectors involved know what they are doing, then nothing > will be lost. > > -tony > I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing work. Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a better setup in case of fire. A museum located in a static location is better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 18:52:52 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:52:52 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in > the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later > generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was > something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing > work. If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic > smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come > by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so > that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the > original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator > has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... > All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have > to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end > up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a > better setup in case of fire.... ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) treasures will be treated. > A museum located in a static location is > better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. Not if it's destroyed by the museum's volunteer workers because they don't know what they're doing... admittedly, if the collectors have more $$ than brains, than such is still the case. More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. Laterz, "Merch" [1] Priceless means lots of things. In this case, the items are unique and 5 generations old... but I doubt anyone else would actually pay money for them, no matter how small the amount. Hence... priceless. ;-) From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 19:12:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:12:18 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in >> the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later >> generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was >> something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing >> work. > > If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the > archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested > enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As > a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device > reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? True, but I thought of a point... even with machines that are less than 30 years old, finding some of the components/peripherals can be hard. Hell, even software and docs can be impossible to find. > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? Even if they did, what about degradation? The movie industry is dealing with old nitrate-based film rotting away. >> Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic >> >> smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come >> by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so >> that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the >> original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator >> has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). > > Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... > and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and > that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware > working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic > scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's > a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things > (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so > helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... Quite true. >> All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have >> to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end >> up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a >> better setup in case of fire.... > > ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they > don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" > (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to > the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) > treasures will be treated. Of course, you can run into the problem of museums rejecting perfectly good hardware because "they already have one". I rescued a very nice collection of AT&T Unix PCs (with tons of diskettes, manuals, expansion cards, spare hard drives) from a lovely person who had tried for a long time to find a home for the collection. She had tried at least 3 museums, all whom had rejected her offer of free equipment. >> A museum located in a static location is >> better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. > > Not if it's destroyed by the museum's volunteer workers because they don't > know what they're doing... admittedly, if the collectors have more $$ than > brains, than such is still the case. > > More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) > collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's > case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. > I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. Very good point. I've always assured people that I have rescued equipment from that it won't end up on EBay. :) Mark From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 21:14:04 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:14:04 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 04:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / >> tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants >> to build the Analytical Engine. >> > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > Saturn V. And I want a pony. Given the "quality" of news nowadays, I guess it is.... Question is: Do you know how to *build* a pony? And have it work as intended? ;-) (And no... "pony keg" while more useful, doesn't count. ;-) ) Laterz, "Merch" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 21:46:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> Message-ID: <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Given the "quality" of news nowadays, I guess it is.... > > Question is: Do you know how to *build* a pony? And have it work as > intended? ;-) > > (And no... "pony keg" while more useful, doesn't count. ;-) ) But a "pony car" isn't such a big deal From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 17 03:16:51 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:16:51 +0200 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 Roger Holmes wrote: > I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program > machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working condition most if its lifetime. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 17 00:34:56 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:34:56 -0500 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues Message-ID: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? I read the documentation (http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and there seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is not working properly even after I attempt the config in the documentation. If you currently have a board working and can share a photo, or can provide any technical assistance, I would be extremely grateful! Nick From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 17 00:47:27 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:47:27 -0500 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> References: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBA8DEF.7050007@comcast.net> I assume it is a fake, if the 0 feedback didn't give it a away, or the lack of descriptions and photos... Then check this out... the photo in the auction, is actually a photo of the Xerox Alto II XM in the Computer History Museum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24205142 at N00/2371818292 Maybe someone should report this auction to ebay, before some poor sucker gets swindled! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 05:44:51 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:44:51 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion Message-ID: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Right now I have two disks and one CD-ROM in my Alpha 433au (all attached to the internal ribbon cable, if you have seen my question about the storage shelf, that is not connected in this instance). The SRM recognises them correctly thus: dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 COMPAQ ST32550W 6415 dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 dka600.6.0.1009.0 DKA600 IBM-PSG DDYS-T18350N M S96E However, when I start the Debian installer, during the boot sequence it does a SCSI reset and then only recognises the first disk, thus: scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS scsi0 : QLogic QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 Vendor: COMPAQ Model: ST32550W Rev: 6415 Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 So, for whatever reason, the CD-ROM and the other hard disk disappear. I have checked the termination and it *seems* to be correct in that the disks and the CD-ROM are not (or *should* not) terminating anything. There is a terminator at the end of the SCSI cable, and I believe the QLA1040 SCSI adapter does its own termination: >>>sh pk* pka0_host_id 7 pka0_mode ultra pka0_soft_term diff Does anyone have any suggestions why the SCSI reset during boot should make the CD-ROM and the other HDD disappear? Thanks Rob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 17 08:15:34 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:15:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't > have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in > the late 1950s). Then you've been told wrong. Several examples: - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in southern Germany. > restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting > the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm > not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it > was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 09:17:26 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:17:26 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>>sh pk* > pka0_host_id ? ? ? ? ? ?7 > pka0_mode ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ultra > pka0_soft_term ? ? ? ? ?diff The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I think. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From labomb_s at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 10:09:22 2010 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> References: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> Message-ID: <828014.33056.qm@web110803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nick Allen > > Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work >with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? > I read the documentation >(http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and >there > seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is >not working properly even after I attempt > the config in the documentation. > Hi Nick, Assuming that you followed the 'Imsai Front Panel Usage' section in the referenced document, I would also take a look at S100 bus pins 54 and 20. I haven't touched any of my Imsai's in several years, but I do recall struggling to get a CompuPro motherboard working with the front panel. If memory serves, at a minimum I had to cut the trace leading to pin 54 (External/Slave Clear) on the front panel PCB itself. I noticed in the CPU-Z schematic that it is indeed driving pin 54 on the bus, so that may well be the issue. As for pin 20, it is GROUND in the IEEE 696 spec. I can't tell if the CPU-Z is driving that pin on the bus or not... if it is, you may want to cut the trace leading to it on the front panel board as well. I have additional notes re. another potential additional change that may be required (somewhere) ...I'll attempt to find them. In the mean time, I would try the pin 54 mod first, and then add the pin 20 mod if necessary. Scott From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 17 10:27:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:27:08 -0700 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 3:17 PM +0100 10/17/10, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>>>sh pk* >> pka0_host_id 7 >> pka0_mode ultra >> pka0_soft_term diff > >The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just >'on' I think. I think it's UW SCSI, it would help to know exactly what model card. This might help. http://www.dectrader.com/docs/set3/ucr_na-CYBEK_KZPBA_UG_B01.pdf-1.pdf I didn't look at the manual, and I'm trying to remember what there are for gotcha's. I think you can use the Narrow connector and *1* UW SCSI connector. Rob, if you haven't, try putting it in a different PCI slot. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 10:32:22 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:32:22 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did not make a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to work, at least some of the time. I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with a SCSI ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and the higher HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I took out DKA600 and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. This time, after the reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and the disk that was at ID 0 and now was at ID 5. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>>>sh pk* > > pka0_host_id ? ? ? ? ? ?7 > > pka0_mode ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ultra > > pka0_soft_term ? ? ? ? ?diff > > The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I think. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 17 10:34:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:34:34 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: , <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4CBAB51A.24918.7A7A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2010 at 15:15, Christian Corti wrote: > Then you've been told wrong. > Several examples: > - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > southern Germany. I seem to remember that there was also a fellow in Germany (he had a web site) with a Univac Solid State 80 (late 50s) in operation. It sounds as if Germany is the happy hunting ground for really old operating iron. Does the Deutsches Museum in Munich have any ancient operating computer gear? It seems as if they'd be a prime candidate also. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 17 11:00:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:00:25 -0400 Subject: Joining the list References: Message-ID: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> I see there still are a few folks on Erik's VC forum trying unsuccessfully to sign up on cctalk; wasn't there some talk recently about taking some of the load off Jay's plate and giving approval authority to one or two other people? Or are new members intentionally being discouraged to keep down the volume, etc., as some folks are speculating? mike From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 17 11:14:58 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, MikeS wrote: > I see there still are a few folks on Erik's VC forum trying unsuccessfully to > sign up on cctalk; wasn't there some talk recently about taking some of the > load off Jay's plate and giving approval authority to one or two other > people? > >From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. I suggested that he ask the subscriber to email him a "reason" to subscribe to the list - this would cut down on the spammers effectively - if the reason isn't classic computer oriented, they're likely a spammer. :) This request could be added to the template file that MailMan uses to send out the subscription confirmation link. Just include an email address that would receive these "request reason" emails. This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. You can tell the spam requests because the reason falls into one of three categories - random text, telling me how nice my "pic" is, or an offer to help me improve my ability to bisect some unsuspecting female. > Or are new members intentionally being discouraged to keep down the volume, > etc., as some folks are speculating? > Now THAT is utter nonsense. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 13:07:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:07:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBA1478.2000809@30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 16, 10 05:09:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to > > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > > track record? > > Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said > individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving) > historical data & hardware... even I saw that! I am happy to accept that clueful museum people exist. The problem is that I have met far too few of them. This may vary by country, because of what's expected of a museum in various places (over here, I believe it has to be 'accessible to all'. This doesn't just mean the reasonable thing that everybody, including, say, those in wheelchairs, have to be able to get round it. It also means, essentially, it has to be terminally dumbed down). Since classic computers are difficult to transport (large, heavy, delicate, etc) _if_ I was going to leave any part of my collection to a meuseum, it would have to be one that's fairly local. And I can't think of one that I regard as suitable (I would love to be proved wrong...) [...] > > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. > > Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude > induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I > happen to be one of them as well.... Oh no... I can be as rude as you want :-) [...] > And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least one occasion (probably > much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a > lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said Well, then it's high time I aught you how to do component level repair :-) > machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines that he would be > reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do. You know, even with a modern PC, I doubt I'd be a real board-swapper, Oh, I'd probably end up replacing a board, becuae there's not a lot you can do when all the logic is in a couple of BGA-packaged ASICs. But I would make darn sure I knew what was really wrong first. > > Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on > this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire & > play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough > about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not > to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that. Quantum physics? Surely you jest. I may have a bit of paper that gives me a qaualficiation in aprticle physics, but I can assure you the work I did involved things like transputers, FAST, ECL, occam, microcode, etc and not things like quarks and leptons. > I do better than most, worse than some others. Sterling to doughnuts > (Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd > get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving > lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy COnsdierign I have never learnt to drive a car, you are certainly right here. > equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and candlemaking... so on Yep right again. Well, assuming 'homebrewing' means making beer [1] and not homebrewing computer hardware. In the latter case, I think it's debatable if you know more than me :-) [1] Actually, I don't much care for beer [2] [2] Notice I am expressing a personal opinion here. I am not saying that those who do like to drink beer are idiots or not worth bothering with, or... I am not suggesting that pubs should be closed down. > those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to say, I doubt he's > offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-) Why on earth would I be offended by that? I can name a dozen -- no more than that -- subjects that I know next-to-nothing about. And I'll bet that for at least some of them there are people here who have considerable knowledge. So what? Heck, I can think of plenty of classic computers where others here know a lot more than me. My problem is not with people who have limited knowledge in a particular area and realise that. They may well not need or want to know any more about that subject,, or they may want to learn about it. Either way, no problem. No, what I have a problem with is people who have a limited knowledge but end up doing a job that requires said knowledge, to the detriment of others (or in this case, to the detriment of computer preservation) [...] > And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the info instead of sharing" > --> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and > as well as he can with the equipment he owns. > > Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at > the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his > right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his > right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just Also remember that while _I_ don't own a scanner, this doesn't mean that things I produce can never be scanned. It's happeend many times in the past, and it will happen in the future (I hope). > because his form of help "works around" these limitations, doesn't mean > it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an > idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and > even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-) I try to reply to _every_ personal e-mail on a subject that I might reasonably be expected to have some information (clasisc computing, electronics, etc). The reply may well be 'Oh, I am not the person to ask about that, you might want to contact $expert'. Or Imight suggest what book or manual to look in. Or whatever. But I will try and reply. There is one point though. If the answer requires a significant amount of work on my part (e.g. I have to dig out a machine, dismantle it, set it up, make masurements, etc), I will still probalby do it _sometime_, but it's when I feel like it. If you want a next-day consultancy service, you can darn well pay for it :-). > > > Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one > > certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in > > the HP community and elsewhere One minor point. The term 'HP community' apparently has a specific meaning, it's a group of people that I am told I am not, and never will be, a mamber of. This doesn't stop me fixing old HP machines and sharing information on how to do so. [...] > I must say, that: > > 1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be > the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you > don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-) Thank you... Be warned, ig you ask me to help you diagnose a hardware fault, even if I am pretty sure I know what component is causing the problem, i will almost certainly get you to make measurements to prove it. That way, you (hopefully) get to learn how to trace faults yourself next time. Not because I don't want to be bothered, but because I would like this knowledge to be preserved. > [1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England (JCB) & the owner's > manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen > "Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when your > high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-) Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? > [2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still part of the "Top 20?" > (/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite > silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's > original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info > even available anymore? All I can remember is that when I joined you had to send an e-mail giving the reasons why you wanted to be on the list, your interests, etc. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 17 14:17:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:17:18 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> I've been to the site that proposes building the Analytical Engine. I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional losses, strength of materials, etc. Does this view still hold any merit? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 04:12:15 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 02:12:15 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> On 10/17/2010 1:16 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program >> machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. > What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". > > The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people > at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and > was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is > a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working > condition most if its lifetime. We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should be operable. Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. The Univac was removed from operation and stored. Passed to storage yard owner, then to our collection. LGP-30 + set of spares may operate. Again was stored "operable". I'm interested in the thread given the possibility of having such old hardware. Jim From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 17 15:06:22 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:06:22 -0400 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBB573E.7010807@degnanco.com> > > 110599066440 > > Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but > you can't tell anything from the listing picture > It's not, it's an Alto II XM, here are pics from a very similar close S/N system taken from VCF MW. You can see from those pictures the chip dates are in the late 70's and therefore the unit on Ebay is also a later version. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/Xerox_Alto-II-XM/ Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 15:07:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:07:31 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > > Does this view still hold any merit? I thought the same claims were made about the Difference Engine #2, but there is now an existence proof that it works, since two working units have been made. Another claim was that in the 19th century, parts couldn't be manufactured to sufficiently tight tolerances. However, measurements of the portion of the Difference Engine #1 that was constructed by Babbage's engineer, Joseph Clement, from 1824 to 1833 show that he was in fact able to meet the tolerances required. It was Clement that proposed standardization of screw threads, a cause taken up by Joseph Whitworth. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 15:21:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101017131750.G28278@shell.lmi.net> > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > Does this view still hold any merit? It is also "well known" that the capability of building something on the order of the Antikytheran device did not exist at the time that the Antikytheran device was built. "They didn't even have gear teeth shaped like that until a thousand years later" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 16:00:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to > 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the > 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin > filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. > Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? "blinded". Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers. In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" position. The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 16:39:24 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:39:24 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is really the same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI slots. In the behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it failed to be recognised by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will study it carefully. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 17 October 2010 16:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > At 3:17 PM +0100 10/17/10, Adrian Graham wrote: > >On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >>>>>sh pk* > >> pka0_host_id 7 > >> pka0_mode ultra > >> pka0_soft_term diff > > > >The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' > >I think. > > I think it's UW SCSI, it would help to know exactly what model card. > > This might help. > http://www.dectrader.com/docs/set3/ucr_na-CYBEK_KZPBA_UG_B01.pdf- > 1.pdf > > I didn't look at the manual, and I'm trying to remember what there are for > gotcha's. I think you can use the Narrow connector and *1* UW SCSI > connector. > > Rob, if you haven't, try putting it in a different PCI slot. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Oct 17 17:45:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:45:46 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? Message-ID: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have images of the Boot PROM and system software for an AT&T 3B1? I've been skimming the 3B1 tech-ref which Steven Hirsch scanned, and it looks to me like an emulator wouldn't be too difficult a prospect. Take the UAE 68k emulator core, bolt on an emulation of the disc controllers, and write something to emulate the display controller. Link against SDL, add salt and pepper to taste. Problem is, the Boot ROM doesn't seem to have been imaged, and the same applies to the software discs. I've had a quick look on my 'usual haunts' (Bitsavers, the Bluefeathertech archive, and Google) but haven't managed to find anything useful... Have any of these items been imaged? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 17 17:55:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:55:26 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> On 10/17/10 6:45 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does anyone have images of the Boot PROM and system software for an AT&T > 3B1? > > I've been skimming the 3B1 tech-ref which Steven Hirsch scanned, and it > looks to me like an emulator wouldn't be too difficult a prospect. Take > the UAE 68k emulator core, bolt on an emulation of the disc controllers, > and write something to emulate the display controller. Link against SDL, > add salt and pepper to taste. > > Problem is, the Boot ROM doesn't seem to have been imaged, and the same > applies to the software discs. I've had a quick look on my 'usual > haunts' (Bitsavers, the Bluefeathertech archive, and Google) but haven't > managed to find anything useful... > > Have any of these items been imaged? I have distribution disk images; let me know if you'd like me to put them up temporarily for you to grab. For the longer-term, it is my desire to put up an archive of all the 3B1 stuff I can find. I've not imaged the ROMs, but will do so if they're socketed, after our big yard sale this weekend. (I should be able to reach my 3B1 then) That is, if nobody else has gotten to it by then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 17 18:04:52 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:04:52 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I have distribution disk images; let me know if you'd like me to put > them up temporarily for you to grab. For the longer-term, it is my > desire to put up an archive of all the 3B1 stuff I can find. Peter da Silva still (at least I think still) maintains the archive site that I used to have about 15 years ago. Theoretically, I've still got it all on CD somewhere, but if Peter still has it available, that's probably easier. However, I'm pretty sure the distribution disks weren't part of it all. I just checked and it's available at: http://unixpc.taronga.com/ BLS From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sun Oct 17 18:06:01 2010 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:06:01 -0700 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? Message-ID: Does anyone have the ECO history of the pdp-8/i available? I am looking at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/PDP8-I_CPU_blueprints_1969.pdf. On sheet d-bs-8i-0-6 there's a gate added at D6 in the drawing, probably in ECO #13, #25, or #50. It uses the M113 at F32N2 to invert something called "IO PC LOAD", and connects to a previously tied high input of the 4-input NAND at E32E2 (which calculates "PC LOAD"). The problem is, nothing anywhere in the drawings appears to generate a signal called "IO PC LOAD". I don't imagine anyone knows off the top of their head what this signal is, how it is generated. A look at the ECO history should help explain when this was added and why, though. Also, if anyone knows of an I/O device or option for the 8/i that would load a new value into the PC, that might give some clues where to look. Thanks in advance, Vince (I am making excellent headway on a project which translate the 8/i schematics, including all the options, into Verilog for an FPGA, but I currently have this signal tied to an input pin for lack of any information about it.) -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From shumaker at att.net Sun Oct 17 18:25:03 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:25:03 -0700 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> On 10/17/2010 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to >> 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the >> 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin >> filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. >> Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? >> > "blinded". > Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and > permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people > have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers. > > In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are > NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will > misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" > position. > > The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually > replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the > remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. > > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! steve > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 18:33:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> Message-ID: <20101017163133.R28278@shell.lmi.net> > > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim > the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of > it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! Our best hope is that someday, maybe computer user interface designers will realize the issues. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Oct 17 18:51:24 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:51:24 -0400 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Gene, I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. Thanks for uploading them. Rob On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. > > I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. > > I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware & software docs instead of being mixed together. > > http://www.retroarchive.org > > tnx. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:01:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:01:03 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. ?The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > > Does this view still hold any merit? With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British machinists of the time. By the early 1830s or so, North American, and especially middle European, machinists had moved to more modern tooling and practices and displaced the British as the best machinists. By the 1860s the British were quite far behind. You can see this with guns, clocks, lab instruments, telescopes, and such. Had Babbage been German or Swiss or living in Rhode Island, things today might be very different. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:09:08 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:09:08 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should > be operable. ?Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. > > The Univac was removed from operation and stored. ?Passed to storage yard > owner, then to our collection. Was this the one that popped up on Ebay maybe ten years ago? I think it was stored in trailers in the Midwest. Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). Anyway, I remember that Univac being a bit on the rough side. I lusted for it for a while. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:22:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:22:53 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > millennium. Back then, information just was not viewed as very important at all. Comparing how people thought back then to how we think now just does not work well - so much to our very cores is different. > If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? In 1000+ years, our tools will have advanced to the point that we could just ask Machine X to scan the mystery disk in our hand and figure out what it is. We will have analytical sensors that will look at every atom of the DVD, and nearly infinite computing power (and AI that will make us seem as smart as a toadstool) to figure out the format. Unless the Jihad comes early. > More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) > collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's > case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. > I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. One is not covered unless there is legal paper to back it up. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:28:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:28:43 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) > > So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet. > > Shocking. I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are best capable of preserving them for future generations. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:29:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was > that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who > are best capable of preserving them for future generations. I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the best caretakers" issue. What evidence do you have? I have been knees deep in the antiques trade for quite a few years now, and this is simply not what I see. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:37:12 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:37:12 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Roger Merchberger > wrote: >> On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> >>> I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in >>> the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later >>> generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was >>> something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing >>> work. >> If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the >> archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested >> enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As >> a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device >> reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? > > True, but I thought of a point... even with machines that are less > than 30 years old, finding some of the components/peripherals can be > hard. Hell, even software and docs can be impossible to find. > >> The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean >> much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world >> (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a >> millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's >> going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > > Even if they did, what about degradation? The movie industry is > dealing with old nitrate-based film rotting away. > >>> Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic >>> >>> smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come >>> by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so >>> that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the >>> original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator >>> has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). >> Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... >> and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and >> that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware >> working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic >> scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's >> a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things >> (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so >> helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... > > Quite true. > >>> All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have >>> to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end >>> up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a >>> better setup in case of fire.... >> ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they >> don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" >> (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to >> the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) >> treasures will be treated. > > Of course, you can run into the problem of museums rejecting perfectly > good hardware because "they already have one". I rescued a very nice > collection of AT&T Unix PCs (with tons of diskettes, manuals, > expansion cards, spare hard drives) from a lovely person who had tried > for a long time to find a home for the collection. She had tried at > least 3 museums, all whom had rejected her offer of free equipment. I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here and here and here..." It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon experience of the item being offered. > Very good point. I've always assured people that I have rescued > equipment from that it won't end up on EBay. :) Yes, me too - or not ebay specifically, but more that I'll try to find a good home for it. Once out of my hands it's out of control, but at least I can sleep easy in the knowledge that I tried to do right by it rather than making a quick buck. cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:37:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:37:44 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in > acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and > those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time > is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not > really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that > these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here > and here and here..." > > It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more > about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon > experience of the item being offered. Keep in mind there are some ethical issues that start to creep in here that can really complicate things. And where there are ethical issues, there are jerks that have bent these issues and seemingly ruin it for everyone. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:54:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:54:46 -0500 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBB9AD6.4040304@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are > NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will > misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" > position. It's just "lights" for dipped beam around here, and "brights" for mains. How widespread that is in the rest of the US (or even this state) I'm not sure; maybe it's just a regional thing. > The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually > replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the > remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. Indeed. Plus our local farm supply place sells sealed beam lights cheaply, so there's not likely to be a shortage of them any time soon (well, unless the government makes up put CFLs in our cars ;) > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. Yes, our truck has it down by the left foot. On our more modern Toyota it's one of the 'stalks' on the steering column, which is where I've seen it on most vehicles in the last 30 years. JOOI, how many countries other than the US often have vehicles with a parking brake mounted in the front footwell? Almost always on UK vehicles it was between the front seats (where it is on some US vehicles, but not so many). I remember Australia and New Zealand having the same setup as the UK, but I'm not sure what other countries do... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:56:52 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:56:52 -0500 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBB9B54.4090601@gmail.com> steve shumaker wrote: > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim > the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of > it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! Drifting into talk about cars seems to have been a feature of this list for the fifteen or so years that I've been on it :-) In the 90s there used to be stray gun-related messages too, but those don't seem to put in the appearance that they once did. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 19:55:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20101017175332.G28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a > bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). although a rabid hobbyist who owns a storage yard would have a significant advantage over the rest! From shumaker at att.net Sun Oct 17 19:58:19 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:58:19 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Gene Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I was given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I acquired. I've been planning to scan and post them when the scanning station gets set up again. Overlapping effort is such a waste though... Since there seems to be interest, I could send you anything I have that's not in your list (it's gonna be while before my scanning station is back in action). I have issues from 83 (1), 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are in very good condition. Steve On 10/17/2010 4:51 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Gene, > I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. > I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. > Thanks for uploading them. > > Rob > > On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >> I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. >> >> I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. >> >> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org >> >> tnx. >> >> g. >> >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >> > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > > Colourfull Creations > http://www.colourfull.com > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 20:00:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> > > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > > millennium. On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Back then, information just was not viewed as very important at all. > Comparing how people thought back then to how we think now just does > not work well - so much to our very cores is different. In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library of Alexandria? I don't know how well they planned against accidental fires, but they were certainly not adequately prepared against military vandalism. > > If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > In 1000+ years, our tools will have advanced to the point that we > could just ask Machine X to scan the mystery disk in our hand and > figure out what it is. We will have analytical sensors that will look > at every atom of the DVD, and nearly infinite computing power (and AI > that will make us seem as smart as a toadstool) to figure out the > format. Unless the Jihad comes early. But, will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:05:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:05:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9D6F.30203@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in >> acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and >> those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time >> is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not >> really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that >> these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here >> and here and here..." >> >> It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more >> about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon >> experience of the item being offered. > > Keep in mind there are some ethical issues that start to creep in here > that can really complicate things. > > And where there are ethical issues, there are jerks that have bent > these issues and seemingly ruin it for everyone. Yes, I don't think museums should be getting deeply involved - but I think any museum should strive to have good relationships with other museums and with the various enthusiast communities, which means it's not too hard for them to reel off a list of alternative places that a person might try when their offer of an item is turned down. Whether the person makes use of that advice is out of their hands, but if there's an aim to preserve history for future generations then it seems better than assuming that the person will do the research themselves, rather than giving up and simply tossing the item. cheers Jules From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 17 20:07:20 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:07:20 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on the subscription page? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:14:47 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:14:47 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >> that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who >> are best capable of preserving them for future generations. > > I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the > best caretakers" issue. > > What evidence do you have? > > I have been knees deep in the antiques trade for quite a few years > now, and this is simply not what I see. You have had different experiences to I, then. I've seen it many a time with vintage computers - items that people have paid good money for, then quickly grown bored of them once they've satisfied a long-term desire to "own one of those", at which point they've relegated the item to storage. When it's "found" again a few years later, they decide that it's too much effort to find a new home for it and, as it doesn't seem important to them, they just dump it. That's not to say that there aren't people with deep pockets who'll do right by an item - of course there are; it's just that an ability to earn money (or be blessed with it) doesn't automatically equate to an ability to look after things :-) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:22:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:22:05 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library > of Alexandria? Google? Library of Congress? Various university libraries? > I don't know how well they planned against accidental fires, but they were > certainly not adequately prepared against military vandalism. Nobody. Except mainframers. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:30:02 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:30:02 -0500 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CBBA31A.4080702@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > There is an older machine in Australia which was working but apparently it > too is currently has not run for some time. Which one, JOOI? (There was apparently a Marconi TAC at Alice Springs airport, but I'm not sure if it's still there - and even if it is, I doubt it's been run for a long time. That was a late 50s design, but I'm not sure when the Alice Springs system was commissioned) Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, too, but I'm not sure which month... cheers Jules From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 17 20:47:43 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:47:43 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: >(I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely)>> >> So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet.>> >> Shocking. > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are >best capable of preserving them for future generations. My appologies, Jules. I had taken your comment as Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks because people pay more than I would and, as a special snowflake Classic Computer person, I'm an authority and anyone who pays more than I would is an idiot" thread, when in reality it was Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks because anyone who outbids me is certainly almost possibly definately as far as I'm concerned, as a Special Snowflake classic computer person, unworthy to own it" thread. I sometimes lack the patience to keep track of the multitude of ways that list members condescend to the world at large. My bad. From jonnosan at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 16:19:10 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:19:10 +1100 Subject: Tektronix 4023 documentation? Message-ID: I am continuing my exploration of the SacState 8008 boot PROM code (using James Markevitch's listing), and have a little more understanding of the escape codes I was asking about previously (in the thread 'identifying terminal by escape codes') It looks like the SacState machine was built as a card that plugged into a 4023 terminal motherboard. My current assumption is the data going out of the 8008 card (i.e. where the code on the PROM is running) is interacting with the other cards on the 4023 bus directly. My further assumption is that there must have been some kind of block device (tape or disk?) that was also on that same bus, and that some of the escape codes must be doing some sort of device selection (i.e. signalling that the next chunk of data is intended to be read from, or written to, a specific device, not read from keyboard or displayed on screen). I am not clear as to whether the other devices are interfacing via - a commercial 'dedicated' I/O card, e.g. a drive controller (if any existed?) - a commercial 'generic' I/O card, e.g. a serial I/O and an 'intelligent' device is being controlled - a custom made I/O card that plugged directly into the 4023 bus The only 4023 documentation I can find online is the User Manual, which has: - a list of bus signals, which confirm there are enough signals available to construct complex device I/O - a list of accessory cards, including a serial 'Data Communications Interface', a 'hard copy unit', and 'audio recorder card' (tape controller ). - a reference to a 4023 service manual, which has a 'theory of operation' which may describe enough of the bus protocol to work out how the 8008 PROM could be interacting with other devices on that BUS. So my questions are - - were any commercial accessory cards available for the 4023 other than the ones listed in the back of the user manual? If so, does any documentation for them exist? - is the 4023 "service manual" available through any means? Cheers Jonno From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 17:22:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:22:50 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto running? Message-ID: <4CBB773A.4010101@jwsss.com> Does anyone have one of these in running (reliable) condition? I found a lot of documentation of an attempt to run one at Digibarn for the 30th anniversary of the Alto, which did not appear to be successful, and that got me to wondering if there was a working one anywhere. Nick would probably be advised to look at that documentation as well as other web pages I've sent him as far as planning what he tries to do with his system. It appears there were maybe 3 sets of spares for the Digibarn one (just from the video) and the photos showed in the background they went from morning light to darkness trying to get it working before giving up. I am not familiar with the person who was trying the bringup, but assuming he was one familiar with the Alto and with all those resources, it says a lot about getting one of these w/o extensive knowledge (true of any vintage system) and trying to bring it up. It's the nature of some designs they always did something you could nurse along to running, and some, perhaps like the Alto may be pumpkins until a lot of things work, and it can be very difficult to figure out if you are damaging them along the course of the effort (2 steps forward 3 back). http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/xerox-alto/ From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 20:41:46 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:41:46 -0700 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> References: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBBA5DA.7020100@jwsss.com> The listing is gone as of 645pm PDT 10/17/2010 On 10/16/2010 8:52 AM, Al Kosssow wrote: > 110599066440 > > Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but > you can't tell anything from the listing picture > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 20:48:25 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:48:25 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> It is the same one, and we (John Bohner and I) are the ones who have it. No further changes of hands. original asking price drifted from $1m to $100k to a negotiated sale by John. I've been helping with research. Also my photos the ones linked to on the wikipedia site. It is in rough condition, but isn't so far gone it would be impossible to make go. Jim On 10/17/2010 5:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should >> be operable. Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. >> >> The Univac was removed from operation and stored. Passed to storage yard >> owner, then to our collection. > Was this the one that popped up on Ebay maybe ten years ago? I think > it was stored in trailers in the Midwest. > > Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a > bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). > > Anyway, I remember that Univac being a bit on the rough side. I lusted > for it for a while. > > -- > Will > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 17 15:11:43 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:11:43 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CBB587F.2000600@wickensonline.co.uk> On 16/10/10 14:45, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality > module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The > pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable > has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on > the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a > terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my > 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to > locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI > adapter. > > I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. > Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to > the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in > this partial extract from the console: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 > dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 > dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 > dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 > dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 > dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 > dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 > dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > > Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 > dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > > When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >>>> > I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality > module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality > module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter > that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. > > Anyone have any clues? > > Thanks > > Rob > > Rob, I run a BA356 from my VAX via a personality module with an HD 50 SCSI connector. I don't terminate the pass through connector. I have a 16 bit personality module which has 68 pin HD connectors but have never tried connecting it up. Mark. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 17 16:33:38 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:33:38 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> On 17/10/10 16:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did not make > a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to work, at least > some of the time. > > I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with a SCSI > ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and the higher > HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I took out DKA600 > and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. This time, after the > reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and the disk that was at ID 0 > and now was at ID 5. > > Regards > > Rob > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham >> Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion >> >> On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>>>>> sh pk* >>>>>> >>> pka0_host_id 7 >>> pka0_mode ultra >>> pka0_soft_term diff >>> >> The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I >> > think. > >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk >> > Might be a red herring Rob, but I seem to remember certainly for the BA356 integrated into the Alphaserver 1000A that the enclosure could be operated in a split bus mode where half the enclosure was on one bus and the other half on another. Just a thought (you might want to cross post this to comp.os.vms). Mark. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 17 21:04:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:04:12 -0600 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> > But, > will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? > Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that > time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the > biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? I think i'll just clean my phone once a year ... everybody else most likely will buy a clean NEW phone every year ... > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > PS.. I thought they only built one ark. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:11:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:11:53 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the >> person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best >> person to treat > an item nicely)>> >> So eBay is precisely like every >> other market on the planet.>> >> Shocking. > >> I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >that it often >> has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are >best >> capable of preserving them for future generations. > > My appologies, Jules. > > I had taken your comment as Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks > because people pay more than I would and, as a special snowflake Classic > Computer person, I'm an authority and anyone who pays more than I would is > an idiot" thread, when in reality it was Yet Another instance of the weekly > "eBay sucks because anyone who outbids me is certainly almost possibly > definately as far as I'm concerned, as a Special Snowflake classic computer > person, unworthy to own it" thread. I sometimes lack the patience to keep > track of the multitude of ways that list members condescend to the world at > large. You're wrong again, because I've never bought anything on ebay, and so therefore have never been outbid on anything :P Do you really believe that there aren't people out there who buy things on the spur of the moment, simply because they can, and because the "ooh, shiny!" factor comes into play? In fact, I suspect that the majority of us have bought things (shiny or otherwise) on a whim before, and subsequently tucked them away out of sight or eventually thrown them away - all that varies is the deepness of the pockets :-) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 21:23:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:23:38 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British > machinists of the time. That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the Science Museum in London. They measured the tolerances that Joseph Clement achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of the DE#1 that he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using parts machined to comparable tolerances and got it to work. Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, but Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 21:27:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> > > In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library > > of Alexandria? On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Google? Library of Congress? Various university libraries? I don't have the numbers to argue it, but my impression was that the library of Alexandria was a committment of a much higher percentage of the available resources than any of those. If so, then it was "relatively" larger (although admittedly smaller absolute size). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 17 21:32:02 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:32:02 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to accomplish what a recycler can easily do. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 17 21:35:45 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:35:45 -0600 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 17/10/2010 8:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British >> machinists of the time. > That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the > Science Museum in London. They measured the tolerances that Joseph > Clement achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of > the DE#1 that he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using > parts machined to comparable tolerances and got it to work. I suspect it comes under *mass production * of parts all the same quality. That did not come about until the late 19 th century. Also I think I read that it was common to have errors in blue prints of the time, so industrial theft would be harder to achieve. > Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, > but Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:37:57 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:37:57 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the > Science Museum in London. ?They measured the tolerances that Joseph Clement > achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of the DE#1 that > he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using parts machined to > comparable tolerances and got it to work. > > Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, but > Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. That may be true, but pissing off one of the very few capable machinists in Britain was kind of a show stopper. If Babbage was in Germany or Switzerland or the US, he could have pissed off a whole line of capable machinists, and there would be still more to pick from - and maybe the machine actually finished. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:42:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:42:30 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I don't have the numbers to argue it, but my impression was that the > library of Alexandria was a committment of a much higher percentage of the > available resources than any of those. ?If so, then it was "relatively" > larger (although admittedly smaller absolute size). Most archaeologists seem to agree - the holdings of most of the ancient libraries was 95 percent crap - bad poetry and horrid prose. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:44:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:44:53 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > original asking price drifted from $1m to $100k to a negotiated sale by > John. ?I've been helping with research. ?Also my photos the ones linked to > on the wikipedia site. So there was a middleman somewhere? I remember the final hammer price of the machine was about $10-12K (a couple of times). -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 21:48:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:48:54 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > I suspect it comes under *mass production * of parts all the same > quality. That did not come about until the late 19 th century. Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. The fact that most people couldn't build a working Difference Engine or Analytical Engine in the 19th century doesn't prove that it couldn't have been done by someone, such as Clement. The reasons that Babbage didn't get a working DE or AE built are financial and political, not technical. By 1859 Georg Scheutz had built several working DEs based on Babbage's design. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 22:01:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> > > will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? > > Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that > > time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the > > biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, ben wrote: > I think i'll just clean my phone once a year ... > everybody else most likely will buy a clean NEW phone every year ... > PS.. I thought they only built one ark. Once they had built and launched the B ark (the FIRST one), they settled in and libed gappily ever after, until they were all wiped out by a virulent phone plague. (or was it a giant mutant space goat?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 22:03:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> Message-ID: <20101017200233.C28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a > museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to > accomplish what a recycler can easily do. To misquote Liddy: "Never rely on malice for what can be easily accomplished by incompetence." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:13:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:13:27 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early > 19th century. ?It didn't become standard practice until later. Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to pick and choose parts to get them all to work? The US armories were making pretty good guns with real interchangeable parts during this period, with the technology becoming child's play by the mid century. The same can not be said about the British armories. Guns and clocks are remarkably handy items for benchmarking mechanical technology. Two very different mass produced precision machines, basically. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:30:28 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:30:28 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBBBF54.7090101@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a > museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to > accomplish what a recycler can easily do. Not just people, but I think that's a trap that museums can easily fall into, too - that what is or was commonplace can be seen as mundane and boring and yes, "not worthy". Museums can't afford to collect everything, and so it's those things which fall by the wayside, and there's a danger of there being a real gap 20 or 30 years down the line. I'm glad that I've bumped into a few people that collect the sort of dot matrix printers common in the 80s, for instance. I don't think many people find them interesting, but I'm glad that there are people hoarding them, because otherwise they might be a very rare sight indeed in a few decades' time. (I remember about 5 years ago trying to amass a collection of 486 PCs for a project. It was a bit of an eye-opener, and I gave up after a few months - it was just too difficult. They were long-gone to the crusher from offices, and individuals hadn't retained them as they had other systems because they had no nostalgia or "coolness factor") cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:31:31 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:31:31 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBBBF93.5090705@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> PS.. I thought they only built one ark. > > Once they had built and launched the B ark (the FIRST one), they settled > in and libed gappily ever after, until they were all wiped out by a > virulent phone plague. > (or was it a giant mutant space goat?) They should have just put a Tardis in the first one. From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Oct 17 23:50:51 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:50:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: > Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a > minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 to the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a painting by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk of change. With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in private hands or in museums, and so will other various "artifacts" including computers. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 18 00:01:46 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:01:46 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> Sure... look at the painting just recently found in upstate New York, apparently it was knocked off the wall many years back and fell behind the couch where it stayed the whole time to only be found just recently and may be worth over $1 million.... Michael Lee wrote: > On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a >> minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. > > As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 > to the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a > painting by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk > of change. With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in > private hands or in museums, and so will other various "artifacts" > including computers. > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 18 00:07:47 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:07:47 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lee" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a >> minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. > > As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 to > the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a painting > by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk of change. > With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in private hands or in > museums, and so will other various "artifacts" including computers. And a much more recent and equally rare 3dfx Voodoo 6000 AGP video card (never released maybe a few dozen around) sold for $3,000 or 1/10th the Alto price. We had a tech bubble, housing bubble, and now we are going to have a collectable computer bubble (all that 0% interest money has to go somewhere). Out of curiosity how many people here are planning on cashing in? From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 18 00:22:08 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:22:08 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD980.1010600@tdh.com> On 10/18/2010 12:01 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sure... look at the painting just recently found in upstate New York, > apparently it was knocked off the wall many years back and fell behind > the couch where it stayed the whole time to only be found just > recently and may be worth over $1 million.... Though the other thing with "collectable" computers is generally the collectors' value is still less than things originally cost, at least for now. Note I did say generally, there are many exceptions, but more often than not, things are just reaching the original cost. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 18 00:22:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:22:40 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD9A0.7070100@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early > 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. William Donzelli wrote: > Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to > pick and choose parts to get them all to work? Yes, the evidence is that he was able to repeatably produce parts to very tight tolerances. One of the things he is famous for is having built his own precision machine tools for that purpose. He received awards for his improvements to the lathe. He advocated the standardization of screw threads, and his journeyman Joseph Whitworth developed the first standard screw thread. Eric From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 18 00:28:40 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:28:40 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> References: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CBBDB08.8070101@tdh.com> On 10/17/2010 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've not imaged the ROMs, but will do so if they're socketed, after > our big yard sale this weekend. (I should be able to reach my 3B1 > then) That is, if nobody else has gotten to it by then. I don't have the means to image them, but I do have a pile of 3b1/Unix PC motherboards laying in a pile if anyone is willing to do it, I'll just send the whole board over. Not sure anymore, but I do recall a PAL or two and a ROM. Most were socketed if I recall. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 00:53:18 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:53:18 +0100 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <003101cb6e88$c7d60250$578206f0$@ntlworld.com> Captchas can also be attacked, but I am pretty sure that requiring a captcha before going to a real person for final verification would significantly reduce the volume of work. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: 18 October 2010 02:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Joining the list > > >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers > trying to subscribe to the list. > > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. > Captcha) on the subscription page? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 23:09:56 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:09:56 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto aution Message-ID: <4CBBC894.4020502@jwsss.com> Mr 1519 approval rating bid $30,100 as a snipe. At least it wasn't a 0 feedback ID that did it. Things really took of in the last 5 minutes with the winning bidder having a true snipe. Anyone on the list the winner? The other Alto thread is useless, nothing about Alto's so starting a new thread here about this sale, also on topic to discuss what happened to the short lived auction for the alto from DC. Was that one fraud, or stupidity? In advance change the thread title if you hijack it, please. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:49:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 02:49:25 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> On 10/17/10 12:14 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. Urr? 80sBBS list? What sort of stuff is covered there? I mean, sure, "80's BBSs of course", but...reunions with other former BBSers, discussions about software, recreations, what? I was a HUGE BBSer back in those days; I ran a small RCP/M system in NJ and was all over the place with the fat phone bill. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 18 03:37:07 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what > locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number > of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the > volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues despite the available means to fight against them. Christian From dgari at msn.com Mon Oct 18 03:42:24 2010 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:42:24 -0700 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. If you send me full specs, a case of Seagram's 7, and a detailed symptom of the problem, I will try to help. dgari at msn dot com > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) > From: Scott LaBombard > Subject: Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <828014.33056.qm at web110803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Nick Allen > > > > Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work > >with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? > > I read the documentation > >(http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and > >there > > seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is > >not working properly even after I attempt > > the config in the documentation. > > > > Hi Nick, > > Assuming that you followed the 'Imsai Front Panel Usage' section in the > referenced document, I would also take a look > at S100 bus pins 54 and 20. I haven't touched any of my Imsai's in several > years, but I do recall struggling to get a > CompuPro motherboard working with the front panel. If memory serves, at a > minimum I had to cut the trace leading to > pin 54 (External/Slave Clear) on the front panel PCB itself. I noticed in the > CPU-Z schematic that it is indeed driving > pin 54 on the bus, so that may well be the issue. > > As for pin 20, it is GROUND in the IEEE 696 spec. I can't tell if the CPU-Z is > driving that pin on the bus or not... if it > is, you may want to cut the trace leading to it on the front panel board as > well. > > I have additional notes re. another potential additional change that may be > required (somewhere) ...I'll attempt to find > them. In the mean time, I would try the pin 54 mod first, and then add the pin > 20 mod if necessary. > > > Scott From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 18 03:43:21 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:43:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on > the subscription page? Only clueless people use something like Captcha. You don't need this if you have a properly configured mail system. Christian From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:30:54 2010 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:30:54 +0200 Subject: The MERT Operating System and the 3B20D Message-ID: A comment from MrBill about the *Bell System Technical Journal online*website make me review the last issues of this magazine in PDF available there. The volume 62 issue 1 talks about the MERT Operating System. What's about this OS and platform (3B20D) ? Something availble ? Emulation/Emulators in project or even possible to do ? Sergio 2010/10/18 Bill Bradford > The telecom nerd in me just exploded. > > Bell System Technical Journal, 1922-1983. > > http://bstj.bell-labs.com/ > > -- > Bill Bradford > Houston, Texas > _______________________________________________ > GEEKS: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks > From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:33:56 2010 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:33:56 +0200 Subject: The MERT Operating System and the 3B20D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps... sorry, sorry, for the crossposting in the bottom of my previous message. I've tried to back it but my finger betrayed me :-( Sergio 2010/10/18 SPC > A comment from MrBill about the *Bell System Technical Journal online*website make me review the last issues of this magazine in PDF available > there. The volume 62 issue 1 talks about the MERT Operating System. What's > about this OS and platform (3B20D) ? Something availble ? > Emulation/Emulators in project or even possible to do ? > > Sergio > > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:18:11 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:18:11 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> > Emulators are great for a lot > of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but > aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working > again... I have to disagree. Only last Wednesday I was single shotting my simulator and the real hardware to find where they diverged. It showed up the fault after a few hundred instructions instead of running for a half a second before crashing (by which I mean the hardware stopping because it detected the loading of an instruction where one of the digits was not binary coded decimal). I am also working on a deeper simulator which models the actual gates of the computer and their interconnections. The source code of this describes the computer in great detail and I would say would be better than real hardware from some purposes. It will also allow monitoring of signals with a virtual oscilloscope and maybe one day, the introduction of simulated faults to test the brains of anyone mad enough to want to see how the original engineers would tackle faults. One day it might even have a 3D graphical interface where you can walk around the machine, open covers and connect your virtual 'scope and the original sounds recorded from the real hardware, like the drum running up. Roger Holmes ICT 1301 + many Apples - ][, ///, Lisa, and Mac up to the latest MacBook Pro. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 06:21:38 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:21:38 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2010 22:39, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is really the > same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI slots. In the > behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it failed to be recognised > by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will study it carefully. I know the KZPBA-CX (and its differential cousin the CY) far too well for my own good :) I've never successfully used both internal and external ports even though the card itself is supposed to auto detect and either do a soft term or not depending on what's connected to it. I've had a LOT of problems with the internal SCSI cable on the 433 and 500, pka0_soft_term should just be 'on' so if you're having issues it's either the card or the cable. Other thing to check is that your devices aren't terminated themselves, providing TERM PWR is fine but not actual termination. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:27:08 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:27:08 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2373AF83-7704-43F9-922C-65D85BFBC094@microspot.co.uk> > From: Jochen Kunz > >> I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program >> machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. > What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". > > The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people > at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and > was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is > a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working > condition most if its lifetime. I was referring to a wartime machine, I think it was Z4 with external tape program. As far I recall it can't do loops and uses relay logic. More of a programmable calculator than a computer. Any idea how often Z22 is actually powered up and run? I must read up on it. Thanks for replying. Roger Holmes. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:58:00 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> > From: Christian Corti > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest >> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't >> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in >> the late 1950s). > > Then you've been told wrong. > Several examples: > - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just > yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. > - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently > still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > southern Germany. > >> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting >> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm >> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it >> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it >> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > > What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my machine went live either. Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: 1958, LGP-30 1958, Zuse Z22 Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate Access Store by ICT). Thanks again. I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I catch up with my e-mails. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 07:53:12 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:53:12 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > > From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is > > what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up > > with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users > > are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to > > subscribe to the list. > > That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against > spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix > configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client > and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about > the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can > practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't > even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've > never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues > despite the available means to fight against them. That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 08:11:11 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:11:11 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> References: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> I agree with your disagreement. :) While an emulator may not give you 100% insight into a hardware problem, it can nevertheless be useful in pointing you in the right direction. On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> Emulators are great for a lot >> of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but >> aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working >> again... > > > I have to disagree. Only last Wednesday I was single shotting my simulator and the real hardware to find where they diverged. It showed up the fault after a few hundred instructions instead of running for a half a second before crashing (by which I mean the hardware stopping because it detected the loading of an instruction where one of the digits was not binary coded decimal). > > I am also working on a deeper simulator which models the actual gates of the computer and their interconnections. The source code of this describes the computer in great detail and I would say would be better than real hardware from some purposes. It will also allow monitoring of signals with a virtual oscilloscope and maybe one day, the introduction of simulated faults to test the brains of anyone mad enough to want to see how the original engineers would tackle faults. One day it might even have a 3D graphical interface where you can walk around the machine, open covers and connect your virtual 'scope and the original sounds recorded from the real hardware, like the drum running up. > > Roger Holmes > ICT 1301 + many Apples - ][, ///, Lisa, and Mac up to the latest MacBook Pro. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 08:13:23 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 18 08:13:51 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:13:51 -0500 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2010, at 7:53 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is >>> what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up >>> with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users >>> are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to >>> subscribe to the list. >> >> That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against >> spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix >> configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client >> and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about >> the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can >> practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't >> even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've >> never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues >> despite the available means to fight against them. > > That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] > subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail > sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? News Flash: They're harvesting all our addresses already simply by crawling the web-based archives. Their address harvesters are smart enough to read addresses obfuscated by typing the word "at" instead of @ or "dot" instead of a period. They can even read emails stored as images by simply OCRing the image. They have million-node botnets that do this 24/7. CAPTCHAs are no problem for spammers either. They simply set of "free porn" sites where unsuspecting humans solve them in exchange for porn. Other spammers simply hire cheap labor and have the workers solve them for a few pennies an hour. There is no technical measure you can take that they can't defeat. Spam makes up over 75% of all email sent worldwide. As long as spam remains profitable, they will continue to do it. Spamming is a multi-trillion dollar industry. There are Chinese spam farms that make profits comparable to the GDP of a small country. They are organized, highly skilled, and highly motivated. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 18 08:14:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:14:03 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBC481B.9070701@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/10 10:07 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Out of curiosity how many people here are planning on cashing in? > I will probably list a completely restored Alto II with software soon. We'll see if a RUNNING machine brings a similar price. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 18 08:25:46 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:25:46 +0200 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20101018132546.GA17033@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 06:13:23AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > > > It's not a photo, it is indeed the artists rendition of an old computer. /P From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 08:28:03 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:28:03 -0400 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201010180928.03551.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1 > 984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I > am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture It appears to be based off a TRS-80 model 3 or 4. You do realize that it's not a photograph, right? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:28:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Gene, > I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. > I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. > Thanks for uploading them. > You're quite welcome Rob! The Kaypro is a neat little machine - you need one. *laughs* I've also got a pile of the Kaypro software docs for CP/M, BASIC, MultiPlan, etc. I'll get those scanned as soon as I can figure out the dead-chicken waving pattern over the scanner. [*] [*]The manuals are of a non-standard heigh and width - the Ricoh scanner I'm using loses it's mind over it for some reason. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:33:46 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > Gene > > Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I was > given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I acquired. I've > been planning to scan and post them when the scanning station gets set up > again. Overlapping effort is such a waste though... Since there seems to be > interest, I could send you anything I have that's not in your list (it's > gonna be while before my scanning station is back in action). I have issues > from 83 (1), 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are > in very good condition. I do not have a list, but it would not take much time to make it - I've only got 25 issues left to scan. I'll try to get a list put together of those 25 tonight. Have you already gone through what I posted? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:35:57 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying > to subscribe to the list. > > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on > the subscription page? > As far as I know, MailMan doesn't support CAPTCHA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:55:13 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/17/10 12:14 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. > > Urr? 80sBBS list? What sort of stuff is covered there? I mean, sure, > "80's BBSs of course", but...reunions with other former BBSers, discussions > about software, recreations, what? I was a HUGE BBSer back in those days; I > ran a small RCP/M system in NJ and was all over the place with the fat phone > bill. > Here you go Dave: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/80sBBS/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:02:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what locked >> it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number of >> sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the >> volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. > > That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against spam > since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix configured to reject > mails from unresolvable and inexistant client and from addresses, this will > bring down your spam volume to about the half. And then add SpamAssassin to > scan the other mails, you can practically forget the spam issue. Just add > ClamAV, and you don't even have to bother about viruses. You would be > surprised. I've never undestood why site maintainers complain about these > issues despite the available means to fight against them. > To think it was only a short time ago when we discussed trying to teach ones grandmother how to steal sheep..... At any rate, the issue isn't blocking incoming email, it's spammers subscribing to the list via the MailMan web interface. When you subscribe, it sends a verification link to the address you subscribed. Those happy little spammers have software that will happily go to the enclosed URL in order to "verify" that the requestor actually wanted to be subscribed to the list. Of course, if you WANT spammers subscribing to your mailing list so you have to play whack-a-mole with them.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 18 09:04:15 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:04:15 -0400 Subject: Joining the list References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt><4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:04:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) >> on the subscription page? > > Only clueless people use something like Captcha. You don't need this if you > have a properly configured mail system. > WTF? Seriously? Having a "properly configured" email system has f*ck all to do with CAPTCHAs. Are you hard of comprehending or something? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:06:49 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is >>> what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up >>> with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users >>> are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to >>> subscribe to the list. >> >> That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against >> spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix >> configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client >> and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about >> the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can >> practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't >> even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've >> never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues >> despite the available means to fight against them. > > That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] > subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail > sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? > It won't. Essentially, we're talking about runway maintenance while he's yammering on about the airplane. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 18 09:09:45 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:09:45 -0500 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC5529.2000405@cimmeri.com> Well, I know it works, 'cause I've done it myself, but it's been awhile. It doesn't work 100% like an original or a Cromemco ZPU, though. After making all the mods to the CPUZ, you have to bring the CPA itself through all its updates if it hasn't been already, then you have to check the buss lines structure between the two boards to ensure are signals are what they should be... especially the ground lines. This last step is because the CPUZ is S-100 IEEE-696 compliant, whereas the CPA was not... John Singleton Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues From: Nick Allen Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:34:56 -0500 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? I read the documentation (http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and there seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is not working properly even after I attempt the config in the documentation. If you currently have a board working and can share a photo, or can provide any technical assistance, I would be extremely grateful! Nick From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Mon Oct 18 09:11:37 2010 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:11:37 +0100 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt><4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBC5599.90606@poggs.co.uk> On 18/10/2010 15:04, Teo Zenios wrote: > Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get > them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? There is one other mailing list I know of which is 'closed' - all the rest are open, and there are archives all over the place. Trying to stop spammers harvesting addresses by making this list 'closed' is futile - all it takes is somebody with Outlook and malware on their Windows box, and suddenly you have a whole load of email addresses from the list harvested anyway :( Peter From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 18 09:45:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:45:15 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com>, , <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com ---snip--- > > You have had different experiences to I, then. I've seen it many a time with > vintage computers - items that people have paid good money for, then quickly > grown bored of them once they've satisfied a long-term desire to "own one of > those", at which point they've relegated the item to storage. When it's > "found" again a few years later, they decide that it's too much effort to find > a new home for it and, as it doesn't seem important to them, they just dump it. > Hi I tend to squirrel things away and forget about them. Every now and then I'll be looking for something else and come across the item that I'd stashed years ago. It would always be like finding it the first time for me. Some people don't see things this way but to me, it is like finding a new treasure. The biggest problem I see is things like floads, fires and death. These seem to be the biggest problems of collectors. I still don't have a good plan for how to disposition my collect when I depart. I truly have no idea what to do. There are a couple of rarer items that the CHM has state interest in but I'd hate to see any part of my collection sent to the scrapper. Still, bits and pieces of my collection are useful to others. I recently read some 1702 EPROMs for Bruce ( of Digi-Barn ) and also dumped ROMs with PASCAL for the AIM-65. I've reconstructed to PAL used on the SwyftCard for the Apple IIe from the operation manual that I hope will be useful to others. I'm always tinkering with things. I try to document things when I can but I'm real bad at that. I often go off on tangents. I've been fiddling with cuckoo clocks lately ( a mechanical sequencial computer ). I guess the important thing is why the person gets something for their collection. Some just want the prize and have no intent to ever explore it. Others will dig into them. Even those that never run them often find out all that they can about their history. The ones I tend to think less of are the ones that just see things as an investment. What I don't like about museums is that they may take an item that you treasure and later sell it. I fully understand why they do this but somehow, it just feels wrong to me. Dwight From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 09:59:28 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:59:28 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is commonly assumed! www.infobritan.co.uk/mass_production.htm steve On 10/17/2010 8:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early >> 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. >> > Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to > pick and choose parts to get them all to work? > > The US armories were making pretty good guns with real interchangeable > parts during this period, with the technology becoming child's play by > the mid century. The same can not be said about the British armories. > > Guns and clocks are remarkably handy items for benchmarking mechanical > technology. Two very different mass produced precision machines, > basically. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 10:18:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:18:32 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> Message-ID: > there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock > making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force > behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production > advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is > commonly assumed! I tend to think it was more military demands (hmmm, just like technology today...). When your guns don't work and theirs do - you probably ought to go back to the armory and kick some asses. -- Will From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 18 10:12:04 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:12:04 -0500 Subject: OT: definition, Dazzled (was Tony and museums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:58 -0500 10/17/10, Fred wrote: >I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. Me too, from last week when I drove my (1968 Plymouth) station wagon. "Dazzled" here in the US has a slight connotation of being befuddled by something wonderful, as opposed to something merely bright. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dazzled illustrates this; although the first (and presumably most common) definition has to do with excessive light, the second definition uses synonyms like "astonish" and "impress" and all three of the example sentences for the verbs have the traditional associations with pretty things (women, gems, splendor). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:01:24 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:01:24 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBC6F54.6080404@att.net> yes... and if that is the full list for those years, then I have a stack of different ones I can send you steve On 10/18/2010 6:33 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > >> Gene >> >> Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I >> was given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I >> acquired. I've been planning to scan and post them when the >> scanning station gets set up again. Overlapping effort is such a >> waste though... Since there seems to be interest, I could send you >> anything I have that's not in your list (it's gonna be while before >> my scanning station is back in action). I have issues from 83 (1), >> 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are in >> very good condition. > > I do not have a list, but it would not take much time to make it - > I've only got 25 issues left to scan. I'll try to get a list put > together of those 25 tonight. Have you already gone through what I > posted? > > g. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 11:10:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:10:34 -0400 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) Message-ID: On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > > I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), > Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. > I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) > Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock solid. When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? -ethan From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:20:20 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:20:20 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBC73C4.7040502@att.net> that would make a lot of sense... if not leading, at least influencing and developing in parallel... steve On 10/18/2010 8:18 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock >> making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force >> behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production >> advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is >> commonly assumed! >> > I tend to think it was more military demands (hmmm, just like > technology today...). When your guns don't work and theirs do - you > probably ought to go back to the armory and kick some asses. > > -- > Will > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:22:35 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:22:35 -0700 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC744B.7060005@att.net> ...baud barf? (checking dictionary... nope...) steve On 10/18/2010 9:10 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > >> I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), >> Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. >> I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) >> Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. >> > Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. > > My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the > full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen > lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept > prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the > CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different > company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock > solid. > > When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend > in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am > positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). > > I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to > VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I > should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. > > Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? > > -ethan > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:24:00 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:24:00 -0700 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> re baud barf... it was a paper dictionary back to sleep now steve On 10/18/2010 9:10 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > >> I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), >> Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. >> I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) >> Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. >> > Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. > > My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the > full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen > lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept > prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the > CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different > company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock > solid. > > When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend > in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am > positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). > > I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to > VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I > should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. > > Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? > > -ethan > > From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 18 11:33:53 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:33:53 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> > >> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation > section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between > hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. > >> > >> http://www.retroarchive.org FWIW, Norton Internet Security 2011 calls http://www.retroarchive.org a "known malicious web site" for a "malformed container violation" which Norton characterizes as a virus. Tom From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 11:34:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:34:10 -0400 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> References: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> Message-ID: On 10/18/10, steve shumaker wrote: > re baud barf... it was a paper dictionary back to sleep now I have it in a printed and bound dictionary, but here's the online version of that... http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_17.html#TAG85 -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 11:48:49 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:48:49 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005c01cb6ee4$581c2730$08547590$@ntlworld.com> I suspected the cable a while back and bought a replacement, which had no effect. I have just ordered another card too so I will see if changing it will help when it arrives. None of the devices are terminated themselves as far as I can tell, but when I replace the card I will check again. Also, I now have pka0_soft_term set to "on" as you recommend. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 18 October 2010 12:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17 October 2010 22:39, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is > > really the same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI > > slots. In the behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it > > failed to be recognised by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will > study it carefully. > > I know the KZPBA-CX (and its differential cousin the CY) far too well for my > own good :) I've never successfully used both internal and external ports > even though the card itself is supposed to auto detect and either do a soft > term or not depending on what's connected to it. > I've had a LOT of problems with the internal SCSI cable on the 433 and 500, > pka0_soft_term should just be 'on' so if you're having issues it's either the > card or the cable. > > Other thing to check is that your devices aren't terminated themselves, > providing TERM PWR is fine but not actual termination. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 11:49:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> References: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation >> section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between >> hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. >>>> >>>> http://www.retroarchive.org > > FWIW, Norton Internet Security 2011 calls http://www.retroarchive.org a > "known malicious web site" for a "malformed container violation" which > Norton characterizes as a virus. > It's a non-event. While Norton reports it, it's not even capable of explaining what it is - all you get is: "The threat writeup you were searching for was not found. Visit the Symantec Threat Explorer to search for Threat information. " Note that the file it's complaining about is: http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/heathkit/H19H89.CNV Which of COURSE is an obvious danger to any Windows user. *rolls eyes* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 11:50:15 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:50:15 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wickens > Sent: 17 October 2010 22:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17/10/10 16:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did > > not make a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to > > work, at least some of the time. > > > > I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with > > a SCSI ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and > > the higher HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I > > took out DKA600 and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. > > This time, after the reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and > > the disk that was at ID 0 and now was at ID 5. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > >> Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > >> > >> On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >> > >>>>>> sh pk* > >>>>>> > >>> pka0_host_id 7 > >>> pka0_mode ultra > >>> pka0_soft_term diff > >>> > >> The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just > >> 'on' I > >> > > think. > > > >> -- > >> adrian/witchy > >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > >> > > > > Might be a red herring Rob, but I seem to remember certainly for the > BA356 integrated into the Alphaserver 1000A that the enclosure could be > operated in a split bus mode where half the enclosure was on one bus and > the other half on another. > > Just a thought (you might want to cross post this to comp.os.vms). > > Mark. I posted this to comp.sys.dec and someone told me there about the split bus. I will check this. Thanks Rob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 18 12:04:19 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am > trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture I don't think it's supposed to be any particular computer. The entire screen appears to be created in a drawing program. The disk drives were cut-and-pasted. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 18 12:10:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0700 10/18/10, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > >>http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ >> >>An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I >>am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > >I don't think it's supposed to be any particular computer. The >entire screen appears to be created in a drawing program. The disk >drives were cut-and-pasted. The curvature of the screen also looked a bit too severe for that era. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 12:21:26 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:21:26 -0600 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available Message-ID: I didn't buy it, but I spotted a VAX 11/751 with Applicon branding on it at a surplus dealer. I will upload some photos I took to a picasa web album tonight. If there is any interest in purchasing it, contact me and I'll put you in touch with the dealer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 12:46:52 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:46:52 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> I have looked it up again and what I was referring to was CSIRAC, in Melbourne. > > Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, too, > but I'm not sure which month... The 803 is another project of the Computer Conservation Society and the chap who told me my machine was the oldest (Rod Brown) had just come back from a committee meeting of the CCS, so I presume they think mine is older but I would not like to argue that point, I was only nine years old myself in 1962. I know my 1301 was installed in time for program development to be finalised before it went live to handle the University of London's undergraduate matriculation in 1962. The reason the University got a prototype machine was that they threatened to tell the world there would not be any new undergraduates in 1962 and that a company called ICT was responsible. A machine destined for internal software development was quickly diverted to the university. Every few weeks a team of engineers would take over the machine for few hours and implement the changes made to all the other six prototypes at GEC telephones Coventry and ICT Putney and maybe elsewhere too. I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. I love the wonder of small children when they see how big, heavy, noisy and yes, smelly old computers used to be than the modern things they are used to. I love getting them to type their name on a Teletype, feeding the tape into the computer and have it print their name in legible tape (aka ClearWrite). Later on I hope to have it print their name on the 600lpm line printer, maybe in some fancy way with big letters made of lots of small letters or some such. Next year I might make it punch a legible card as that now works once more. Thanks for your thoughts. Roger. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 13:15:11 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:15:11 -0600 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:21:26 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I didn't buy it, but I spotted a VAX 11/751 with Applicon branding on > it at a surplus dealer. I will upload some photos I took to a picasa > web album tonight. If there is any interest in purchasing it, contact > me and I'll put you in touch with the dealer. Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is located in New Mexico. Freight shipping can be arranged through Santa Fe. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 13:24:56 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:24:56 -0400 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am > trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > > well, one other problem with this portrayal is that it's inaccurate. I still have my brochure from the early 80's for Compuserve. There was already RLE graphics support on their VidTex service on Compuserve in '84 for most of the micro's on the market back then. It was only b/w but still 256x192 res. They even had libraries of digitized photos, beside plain images. The service was damn expensive but it worked. I bet It wouldn't take much to scan your photo then for that retro version of FB. Although I can't recall at the moment when the consumer document scanners were available - there might have been still only commercial grade scanners available at the time. But I guess if you could afford the high connect rates at 9600bd for Compuserve you could also afford one of the first commercial Fuji digital cameras which arrived a couple of years later :) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 18 13:47:21 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:47:21 -0700 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:15 PM -0600 10/18/10, Richard wrote: > > I didn't buy it, but I spotted a VAX 11/751 with Applicon branding on > > it at a surplus dealer. I will upload some photos I took to a picasa > > web album tonight. If there is any interest in purchasing it, contact > > me and I'll put you in touch with the dealer. > >Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is located in New Mexico. Freight >shipping can be arranged through Santa Fe. I wish I could handle such a machine, but I can't afford the space it would take. Did you happen to notice what Tape/Disk I/O devices it includes? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 14:26:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:26:49 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: > I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. Interesting you mention hulls of old ships and oldest operating computers. It is likely that any list of "oldest operating computers" would probably be dominated by special purpose digital* computers (fire control, navigation, crypto, etc.) on ex-US and Soviet warships serving in third world navies. Even in the backwaters of the US Navy there are still some ancient machines still going. Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that historians tend to dismiss. * The submarines of Taiwan still use the Mk IV Torpedo Data Computers (mechanical analog), installed when the boats were still US during World War 2. -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 18 14:29:36 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:29:36 +0100 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] wrote: > I wish I could handle such a machine, but I can't afford the space it > would take. Did you happen to notice what Tape/Disk I/O devices it > includes? The VAX-11/751 is the rackmount version of the VAX-11/750 so it might be less space than you think (although, if I'm honest, I'd be in the same situation). Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 14:41:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> Message-ID: <20101018123956.O65811@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that > clock making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* > major force behind the start of mass production and that many early mass > production advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality > than is commonly assumed! > www.infobritan.co.uk/mass_production.htm Interesting Half a century ago, I was told that clock-making (and naval navigation) was the impetus behind precision machining, but that "GUNS FOR WAR!" was the entire impetus for interchangeable parts and mass production. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 14:55:21 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:55:21 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> References: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Message-ID: <201010181555.21419.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get > them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? If someone posts to the list about someone that's having trouble subscribing, the new person tends to get added pretty quickly. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 15:27:55 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:27:55 -0400 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: References: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201010181627.55258.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Christian Liendo < > > christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in > > -1984/ > > > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I > > am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > > well, one other problem with this portrayal is that it's inaccurate. OMG, An artistic portrayal that's inaccurate!!! This is really worth a discussion? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 15:31:37 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:31:37 -0500 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CBCAEA9.9070901@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > I have looked it up again and what I was referring to was CSIRAC, in > Melbourne. >> Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, >> too, but I'm not sure which month... > > The 803 is another project of the Computer Conservation Society and the > chap who told me my machine was the oldest (Rod Brown) had just come back > from a committee meeting of the CCS, so I presume they think mine is older > but I would not like to argue that point, I was only nine years old myself > in 1962. Well I was -12 :-) The Science Museum have a complete 803 too, I believe - and I can never remember if the one that the CCS sometimes mention is TSM's one or TNMoCs. John Sinclair @ TNMoC might know the exact delivery date of TNMoC's one, if you ever did decide that it was important. > I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more > than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of > them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static > electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors > take their toll. I know they found in recent times at least one joint in the TNMoC machine which was never soldered - it had left the factory like that, and had continued to work for years that way, despite several moves. > Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be > operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. I don't think I mind so much, so long as I can still poke around them (supervised or with permission) even if they don't run. I find nothing attractive in 'dead' systems kept behind barriers or in glass cases, though; the internals are just as interesting as the cases, if not more so! cheers Jules From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Oct 18 15:31:27 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:31:27 +0200 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101018203127.GY24842@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2010-10-18 11:47:21 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:15 PM -0600 10/18/10, Richard wrote: > > > I didn't buy it, but I spotted a VAX 11/751 with Applicon branding on > > > it at a surplus dealer. I will upload some photos I took to a picasa > > > web album tonight. If there is any interest in purchasing it, contact > > > me and I'll put you in touch with the dealer. > > Sorry, I forgot to mention that it is located in New Mexico. Freight > > shipping can be arranged through Santa Fe. > > I wish I could handle such a machine, but I can't afford the space it > would take. Did you happen to notice what Tape/Disk I/O devices it > includes? I would love to have a /75x (or a similar old machine) around and could even provide the space. But shipping it to Germany would probably doom me :( MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of the second : things. Right now I am so far behind I will never die. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 15:34:15 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:34:15 -0600 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 Message-ID: The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. I have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). I'll upload some pics this week. However, while I was packing up the stuff I bought at the vendor's store, I saw that he had the rest of the system and not just the one terminal. Looks like a couple other terminals, some characteristically PDP-11 enclosure boxes (2x floppies, some other stuff, power enclosure). It looks like this stuff was meant to be rack mounted, except for the terminals, because there's no typical DEC enclosure like I would expect. Googling doesn't turn up anything useful except the usual firewalled citations from IEEE and ACM journals containing product announcements. Does anyone know more about these systems? From the descriptions that leak through google, it appears that it might have had some graphics capability and that interests me quite a bit. I couldn't look at the system close up because it was on a huge pile of stuff and I didn't have time to dig it out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 15:36:19 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:36:19 -0600 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:47:21 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I wish I could handle such a machine, but I can't afford the space it > would take. Did you happen to notice what Tape/Disk I/O devices it > includes? Unless they are on the front panel, it looks like just a single CPU cabinet. I don't know if its complete, it wasn't particularly huge, so I don't know if its really all of the VAX or just inside a cabinet that says VAX 11/751. I have no personal experience with such vaxen, so I can't say if its complete and darnit I didn't think to open the door and take pictures of the inside. I was too busy wrangling my purchases into a trailer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 18 15:39:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:39:29 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101018123956.O65811@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net>, <20101018123956.O65811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBC4E11.17026.FD614B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2010 at 12:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > Half a century ago, I was told that clock-making (and naval > navigation) was the impetus behind precision machining, but that "GUNS > FOR WAR!" was the entire impetus for interchangeable parts and mass > production. I seem to recall an article in Smithsonian or American Heritage some time ago that put forth the idea of crediting Eli Whitney with the mass production of interchangeable parts is overstating the point somewhat. He neither invented the concept (that goes to a Frenchman) nor did his muskets achieve the goal--parts required quite a bit of "tweaking" to get them to fit. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 15:41:33 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 7:43 PM >> I don't have the numbers to argue it, but my impression was that the >> library of Alexandria was a committment of a much higher percentage >> of the available resources than any of those. If so, then it was >> "relatively" larger (although admittedly smaller absolute size). > Most archaeologists seem to agree - the holdings of most of the > ancient libraries was 95 percent crap - bad poetry and horrid prose. On the other hand, the archaeologists are not qualified to judge the value of the bad poetry and horrid prose to the linguists and and to the historians, who almost certainly will not agree with each other, either. (Sometimes I wish I'd never gotten involved with computers and completed my doctorate in Indo-European linguistics instead.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 14:17:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:17:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 17, 10 02:00:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to > > 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the > > 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin > > filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. > > Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? > > "blinded". OK... That's also said over here, but normally as slang rather than written in manuals. > Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and > permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people > have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers. > > In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are Interesting... As I understnad it, the original anti-dazzel device for electric headlamps was a rheostat (variable resistor) to dim them. This was replaced by a mechancial dipping system, when you pressed the dipswitch, the RH (nearest the centre of the road/oncoming traffic) was turned off, and the LH one was moved mechancially by a solenoid. Then came the twin-filament design whcih is, of course still used on most cars today. So the original really was a 'dimmer'. > NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will > misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" > position. > > The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually Sealed beam headlamps (large glass envelope incorporatign the reflector and front lens) have fallen out of fashion oer here. Most cars have a reflector/lense assembly (often approximately rectangular) with a twin-filament bulb inserted from the rear. Often these days it's a tungsten halgoen bulb. when it fails, you replace just the bulb. But of course you do have to replace both filaments together. Actually, my father's current car, a Skoda, has separate tungsten halogen signle filament buibs for the main and dipped beams. So you only have to rrplace the filament that's failed. > replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the > remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. Indeed. Of coruse part-failed twin filamanet bulbs are good for this too. You normally have to specially order them, but 6V car bulbs are available. A 6V headlamp bulb will typically have a couple of filaments rated at 30-odd watts each. Which make ideal loads for large-ish 5V supplies (put both in parallel for a 10A or so load). The 6% 5W tail lamp bulb is good for smaller supplies. > > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. Sme over here. Actually, most of those multi-function swtiches can be taken apart, contacts cleaned, etc. > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. I;'ve never been in such a car, but I've got plenty of books describing them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment) windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 14:50:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:50:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 17, 10 08:29:32 pm Message-ID: > > > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was > > that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who > > are best capable of preserving them for future generations. > > I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the > best caretakers" issue. > > What evidence do you have? I am not sure there's any correleation at all between deepness of pockets and ability/desire to look after an artefact... Certainly if you've bought something as an investment (which I suspect applies to a lot of antiques, alas), you are going to want to make sure your investment doesn't lose value, Conversely, thoug, if you've bought a reare machien for 'only' a few hundred dollars, you may not look after it as well if you earn that sort of money for an hours work ('Hey, I could byy another hundred of them easily) than if you earn that amount of money in a month. Of course you can't buy another hundred of them, for the simple reason thast there aren't another hundred around on sale My big worry is that preserving classic computers can be very different from preserving other artefacts, and that at least over here the people with the deepest pockets tend not to be scientists or engineers who would know how to do that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 14:57:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:57:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 17, 10 10:42:30 pm Message-ID: > Most archaeologists seem to agree - the holdings of most of the > ancient libraries was 95 percent crap - bad poetry and horrid prose. I suspect that's still true of most libraries (and the wrb...) today,.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:08:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:08:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBBF54.7090101@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 17, 10 10:30:28 pm Message-ID: > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a > > museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to > > accomplish what a recycler can easily do. > > Not just people, but I think that's a trap that museums can easily fall into, > too - that what is or was commonplace can be seen as mundane and boring and > yes, "not worthy". Museums can't afford to collect everything, and so it's > those things which fall by the wayside, and there's a danger of there being a > real gap 20 or 30 years down the line. When I started collecting old computers (they weren't 'classic' then) back in 1986, I did so becuase after rescuing a minicomputer from being scrapped, I realised that while museums were preserving the truely rare machines, there were a lot of once-common machines that museums were not interested in, and unless somebody did something then 20 years of computer histroy was going to vanish. So I did something. > I'm glad that I've bumped into a few people that collect the sort of dot > matrix printers common in the 80s, for instance. I don't think many people > find them interesting, but I'm glad that there are people hoarding them, > because otherwise they might be a very rare sight indeed in a few decades' time. AS I've mentioned before, I am a hardware person, and while (of course) I find computers intersting, I can also find their peripherals as interesting. I mentioned a couple of weeks back that I'd just got an Olivetti sparkjet printer running again. Of course I don't intend to use it seriously a a printer. But it's an interesting idea (even if the print quality is only just about legible :-)), and IMHO such a machine should be preserved. > (I remember about 5 years ago trying to amass a collection of 486 PCs for a > project. It was a bit of an eye-opener, and I gave up after a few months - it > was just too difficult. They were long-gone to the crusher from offices, and > individuals hadn't retained them as they had other systems because they had no > nostalgia or "coolness factor") I have ot admit that _I_ am not interested in PC clones, but that certainly doesn't mean that nobody should be, or that they don't need ot be preserved. They are certainly an important part of the history of computing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:10:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:10:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <4CBBC894.4020502@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Oct 17, 10 09:09:56 pm Message-ID: > > Mr 1519 approval rating bid $30,100 as a snipe. At least it wasn't a > 0 feedback ID that did it. I assume this is the 'genuine' one, not the one that was almost certainly fraudulent. Inwhich case, my jaw has just hit the floor. How much??? Oh well, another machine I will never get to investigate :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:14:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:14:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBD980.1010600@tdh.com> from "Michael Lee" at Oct 18, 10 00:22:08 am Message-ID: > Though the other thing with "collectable" computers is generally the > collectors' value is still less than things originally cost, at least > for now. Note I did say generally, there are many exceptions, but more > often than not, things are just reaching the original cost. The obvious exceptions are some (origianlly) cheap UK home computers, MK14, ZX80 and Jupiter Ace. All sell for a lot more now than they did origianlly. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 15:55:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101018135307.N68472@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > replaced by a mechancial dipping system, when you pressed the dipswitch, setting dipswitches while driving? :-) > > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. > I;'ve never been in such a car, but I've got plenty of books describing > them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment) > windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated. The starter motor used to be operated by a floor button From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 15:56:43 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:56:43 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >> > that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who >> > are best capable of preserving them for future generations. >> >> I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the >> best caretakers" issue. >> >> What evidence do you have? > > I am not sure there's any correleation at all between deepness of pockets > and ability/desire to look after an artefact... > > Certainly if you've bought something as an investment (which I suspect > applies to a lot of antiques, alas), you are going to want to make sure > your investment doesn't lose value, Conversely, thoug, if you've bought a > reare machien for 'only' a few hundred dollars, you may not look after it > as well if you earn that sort of money for an hours work ('Hey, I could > byy another hundred of them easily) than if you earn that amount of money > in a month. Of course you can't buy another hundred of them, for the > simple reason thast there aren't another hundred around on sale > > My big worry is that preserving classic computers can be very different > from preserving other artefacts, and that at least over here the people > with the deepest pockets tend not to be scientists or engineers who would > know how to do that. > > -tony I completely agree... but then again, when I rescue something, it kills me if it's just sitting there, not doing anything. :) Right now, my housing situation completely prevents me from doing lots of work on several machines I've rescued over the last year, simply because I have no room. Hell, I gave up my office for my kid (so that he could have a bedroom by himself) and my girlfriend has GOT to be the most understanding person in the world. She puts up with a garage full of machines, a dining room table that has an IBM PC and an Epson QX-10 sitting on them, an HP3000 with it's drives sitting next to the dining room table, a corner of the living room with a pile of boxes containing software and manuals (as well as another stack of machines), and a corner of the bedroom completely overtaken with two desks, several machines and the top of the dresser (literally) piled hight with 2 1/2 feet of software. God love her, I'm a lucky man. The point is, she's made it clear that, when we move in a few months, I'm damn well getting an office so that she can have most of the house back. :) And also so I have room to work on my machines and have room to lay them out, power them up and do something with them. I just realized I had written this and still hadn't made a point. I believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from preserving many other types of collectibles. I know of very few possessions that can become unusable paperweights when something ethereal (like disk contents or tape records) become unreadable, and this is something a lot of people (outside this industry) understand. When I rescue something, I want to make it WORK, damn it. :) Mark From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 18 16:05:22 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:05:22 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Though the other thing with "collectable" computers is generally the >> collectors' value is still less than things originally cost, at least >> for now. Note I did say generally, there are many exceptions, but >> more often than not, things are just reaching the original cost. > > The obvious exceptions are some (origianlly) cheap UK home computers, > MK14, ZX80 and Jupiter Ace. All sell for a lot more now than they did > origianlly. The ZX80 was (iirc) ?99.99. At one point (1999/2000) the UK ebay price was ~?400. A quick completed listings search just now suggests that ~?110-?250 is nearer the mark. No MK14s or Aces in ebay's current completed listings so no idea about those. I don't think you'll get rich selling old home micros. Antonio (260675156877 is another ZX80 but this one will set you back a lot more. Mind you, it's worth it as it'll win pretty much any "my $system would crush your ZX80" contest you might find yourself dragged into. You could live in it too, so it qualifies as a mainframe.) From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 18 16:06:24 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:06:24 +0100 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101018135307.N68472@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] wrote: > The starter motor used to be operated by a floor button The "starter motor" used to be a sweaty bloke standing in front of the car ... Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 16:17:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:17:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Oct 18, 10 01:56:43 pm Message-ID: > I completely agree... but then again, when I rescue something, it > kills me if it's just sitting there, not doing anything. :) Right Yep. The purpose of a computer is to 'compute' (whatever that may mean). I try to get all my machines operationa, but I keep them as origianl as I can. What I mean by that is that I replace the smallest part I can (chip rather than PCN, for example), but I don't worry too much if the rpelacement is not exactly the same as the original part (I'll replace a 74xx with a 74LSxx if it'll work and I can't get the former). Of course I keep record of what I've done. There are plenty of machines I've not got round to working on yet, but I will... > I just realized I had written this and still hadn't made a point. I > believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from > preserving many other types of collectibles. I know of very few > possessions that can become unusable paperweights when something > ethereal (like disk contents or tape records) become unreadable, and Or EPROM contents, of course. > this is something a lot of people (outside this industry) understand. > When I rescue something, I want to make it WORK, damn it. :) Indeed. Whike I generally keep the casaings on my machines (at least when I am not usinfg them :-), _I_ am not very interested in the styling. Some people woould want an HP2623 terminal for the rather odd styling, I'm interested in it because of the little state machine to draw lines. And thus my inteest comes from the intnerals, and they have to work to be interesting. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 16:16:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101018141223.F68472@shell.lmi.net> > > The starter motor used to be operated by a floor button On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > The "starter motor" used to be a sweaty bloke standing in front > of the car ... like Kettering's friend, . . . It has been 30 years since the last time that I cranked a car From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 16:21:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:21:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101018135307.N68472@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 18, 10 01:55:35 pm Message-ID: > > > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. > > I;'ve never been in such a car, but I've got plenty of books describing > > them. A friend of mine drives a car where the (oriignal equipment) > > windscreen washer pump is on the floor, left foot operated. > > The starter motor used to be operated by a floor button The starter used to be a crack handle :-). Very useful for setting the valve clearnances, static ignition timing and the like. Some older UK cars (Morris Minors, cetainly) had a pull knob (like the choke control) on the dashboard for the starter. It was linked to a bowden cable which operated a high current swtich on top of the starter motor itself (there was no 'starter solenouid', which is basically a high current relay). I don;t know whether there was a mechancial linkage to engage the pinion with the fglywheel teeth, or whether it used a 'Bendix drive'. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 16:18:08 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:18:08 -0700 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From: jim s Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 3:41 PM > On 10/15/2010 3:13 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tony Duell" >> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:02 PM >>> My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare >>> machine to produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a >>> few enthusiasts would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an >>> enthusiast is more likely to produce inforamtion of benefit to the >>> rest of the classic computing community than would be produced if >>> it was given to a museum. >> I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that >> will tinker with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" >> on the screen or printer a few times until he gets bored with it, >> blows it up and cannot fix it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum >> will collect all the information about that rare device and keep it >> intact until some later generation has the need or desire to see >> what made it tick. The key difference is each time that rarity >> passes hands to another collector things get lost and you have the >> possibility of it getting destroyed, a decent museum will keep it >> from rotting so that generations from now somebody can go back and >> learn from it (using high tech science to see its layers without >> trashing it). > such museums are rare. for the most parts museums (and libraries) > operate as businesses and need customers and income. They will make > or rent exhibits that generate traffic. they rarely place a lot of > emphasis on the longevity of every little bit that could exist in > their sphere of influence. Tell me, how many museums have you worked for? Volunteered for? Where did you obtain your master's degree or professional certification in museology (museum studies)? Where did you do internships? Who did you work with? I ask only because you seem to know little to nothing about how museums work, and I wondered whom to blame. > the rare exceptions are such as the CHM and the Smithsonian. The > Smithsonian is picky about what it takes, but preserves artifacts > quite meticulously. The CHM has a lot of nice stuff, and from what > I've seen preserves what it accepts quite well. The same can be said of the Nordic Heritage Museum, where I studied collections management, under the tutelage of the collections manager. Or of the Museum of Flight, where I studied education in a museum environment, with the director of education, and museum organization, with the emeritus executive director of the museum. Or of the several dozen museums we visited or whose professional staff guest lectured to us. Museums have areas on which they focus. We, for example, present the history of interactive computing, as represented by mainframe timesharing and by minicomputers of the era between 1960 and 1990. Museums have different ways of presenting what they do; some, like the Museum of Flight, have large permanent displays with great amounts of information for the visitor, while others have spaces in which they present itinerant displays, and yet others are oriented towards children's needs and have a large number of great shiny whiz-bangs. But all, *all*, of them have more things in very careful storage than you will ever see unless you go to work for them--and until you have been properly trained in their handling, you'll never lay hand on any of the things around you. > I mentioned libraries, because they are at the bottom of the food > chain in my book. There are countless elaborate collections of books > dispursed to the far winds by clueless librarians. The rare > exception and model you would think would exist is a person like Al > Kossow. He is the rare archivist, who has the mission to save the > software and ephemera of computing, and actually knows what he is > doing. > Most librarians, and such operations as almost any "Discovery Museum" > or such has the mission to bring in bodies and collect money. You clearly have no idea what any professional librarian does, nor how many different specializations there are under the umbrella term "librarian". They range from professional cataloguers (and that is what I did as my internship for my professional certificate, under the very bright librarian of the Seattle Art Museum) to archivists (including the chief archivist for Vulcan, who oversaw this collection before I came along) to forensic database specialists to ... > the rare well finance serious collector probably is the best hope for > your rarities if you pass them on, as most of the museums frequently > already have what they need, and won't take say the complete apple > collection from the Newton to the latest Macintosh LC3. ... because they have an entirely different mission, and a story to tell which does not include electronics of any kind. Or they already have a complete collection of Apple computers, which is currently in storage so you might not know about it, and yours are surplus to requirements. Or you're insisting on conditions on your donation (the base meaning of which, though most people forget this, is "gift") which their non-profit status will not allow them to accept. Enough. I'm done. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:22:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:22:58 -0400 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/18/10, Richard wrote: > > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> I wish I could handle such a machine, but I can't afford the space it >> would take. Did you happen to notice what Tape/Disk I/O devices it >> includes? > > Unless they are on the front panel, it looks like just a single CPU > cabinet. I don't know if its complete, it wasn't particularly huge, > so I don't know if its really all of the VAX or just inside a cabinet > that says VAX 11/751. I have no personal experience with such vaxen, > so I can't say if its complete and darnit I didn't think to open the > door and take pictures of the inside. I was too busy wrangling my > purchases into a trailer. Much of the volume of an 11/750 is air. I haven't seen an 11/751 up close, but visualizing the innards of an 11/750 (inside which I have spent many hours), there's a 19"-wide mounting frame in the middle, with room on the left for a DD11DK (standard equipment) and memory battery backup (an option I've never seen in person). http://hampage.hu/vax/kepek/vax11-_1.jpg It would be easy enough take the various constituent elements then mount the blower/PSUs at the bottom of an H960, the CPU cage (CMI bus, memory, etc) in the middle, then a BA11 somewhere in there. The 11/751s I'm familiar with were mounted in racks in vans along with banks of high-speed 9-track tape drives rigged to banks of geophones for oil exploration. Our customers would drive the VAX to near the blast site, spool out miles of wire in various directions, plant the charges, spin up the tape drives to 125ips and blow the charge. I have to wonder if the market didn't define the product - it's sort of a niche to build a mobile minicomputer that could slurp up several MB/sec and spit it out to tape. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:24:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:24:18 -0400 Subject: Preserving computers (here we go again) Message-ID: >?I > believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from > preserving many other types of collectibles. For those of us that have been around from the very beginnings of the computer collecting (which seems to be perhaps 1990 or so), or better for those of use that have been around from before anyone gave a damn, we see that it has grown up almost perfectly in line with how every other branch of the antique and collectible trade has. 1) A few see potential in some unrealized common items. 2) Very loose communities form, and collection form. 3) Snowball effect of more people see the potential and interest grows. 4) Prices and values start forming, due to supply and demand. Meanwhile, the good stuff starts getting scarce, 5) Markets grow, prices stabilize. The high end gets very high, and the low end gets worthless. You name the antique, and it will fit this story. Oddly enough, Ebay probably has not changed the story much. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Oct 18 16:26:12 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:26:12 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: (sfid-20101017_190655_419631_539F0FAB) References: (sfid-20101017_190655_419631_539F0FAB) Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > (I am making excellent headway on a project which translate the 8/i schematics, > including all the options, into Verilog for an FPGA, but I currently have this signal > tied to an input pin for lack of any information about it.) I realize it's not what you are doing, that is, I realize that what I did isn't the same, but I made an PDP-8/I clone in an FPGA, complete with the RF08 emulation and all the time sharing options. I consulted the schematics but didn't follow them. The only reason I mention it is that if when you done you want to boot TSS/8, I have images, complete with sources which might be helpful. I would guess that at some point you might want to try... (or maybe not, just a thought). I also have tools to put together an RF08 disk "image" from the sources. RF08 emulation with a IDE disk was fun in verilog :-) -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:26:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:26:58 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On the other hand, the archaeologists are not qualified to judge the > value of the bad poetry and horrid prose to the linguists and and to > the historians, who almost certainly will not agree with each other, > either. True, but I bet the "90 percent of everything is crap" rule applied back then as it does now. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:30:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:30:43 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBC4E11.17026.FD614B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> <20101018123956.O65811@shell.lmi.net> <4CBC4E11.17026.FD614B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I seem to recall an article in Smithsonian or American Heritage some > time ago that put forth the idea of crediting Eli Whitney with the > mass production of interchangeable parts is overstating the point > somewhat. ?He neither invented the concept (that goes to a Frenchman) > nor did his muskets achieve the goal--parts required quite a bit of > "tweaking" to get them to fit. Just like everything else - nothing really is truly invented, but rather a bunch of old ideas with maybe one or two new ones mixed in. Even the Romans had something like mass production for their armies. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 16:33:16 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:33:16 -0600 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:26:58 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > True, but I bet the "90 percent of everything is crap" rule applied > back then as it does now. I'm not so sure. Reading and writing wasn't commonplace and transcribing scrolls wasn't commonplace. Paper was reused (re: the Archimedes palimpsest ) which makes me think that stuff worth the trouble of writing down probably wasn't crap. I think the right adage is that 90% of the stories orally told at the time were crap, but that those worth writing down were more likely to be of the 10% non-crap variety. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:38:34 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (ragooman at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview Message-ID: <4cbcbe5a.0ecf8e0a.30ea.ffffa666@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- Date: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:31:40 pm From: "William Donzelli" Even the Romans had something like mass production for their armies. Romans invented the Hamburger :) =Dan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:40:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:40:37 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm not so sure. ?Reading and writing wasn't commonplace and > transcribing scrolls wasn't commonplace. ?Paper was reused (re: the > Archimedes palimpsest ) > which makes me think that stuff worth the trouble of writing down > probably wasn't crap. Nearly everyone who could write back then was probably working for someone (i.e. the Emporor/King/Pope), so if he told you to write something down - well, you had better start writing it down. And we know people in power almost never have good taste. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 16:43:08 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:43:08 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4cbcbe5a.0ecf8e0a.30ea.ffffa666@mx.google.com> References: <4cbcbe5a.0ecf8e0a.30ea.ffffa666@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > Romans invented the Hamburger :) No, they never really got that far north. Gaulburgers, maybe. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 16:43:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> <20101018123956.O65811@shell.lmi.net> <4CBC4E11.17026.FD614B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101018144153.U70535@shell.lmi.net> > > I seem to recall an article in Smithsonian or American Heritage some > > time ago that put forth the idea of crediting Eli Whitney with the > > mass production of interchangeable parts is overstating the point > > somewhat. ?He neither invented the concept (that goes to a Frenchman) > > nor did his muskets achieve the goal--parts required quite a bit of > > "tweaking" to get them to fit. On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Just like everything else - nothing really is truly invented, but > rather a bunch of old ideas with maybe one or two new ones mixed in. > Even the Romans had something like mass production for their armies. "FIRST" is always suspect in history, and particularly in technology. And the history books in the educational system are BOGUS. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 16:52:34 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:52:34 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 2:27 PM >> On the other hand, the archaeologists are not qualified to judge the >> value of the bad poetry and horrid prose to the linguists and and to >> the historians, who almost certainly will not agree with each other, >> either. > True, but I bet the "90 percent of everything is crap" rule applied > back then as it does now. Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously from a single source. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 18 17:01:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:01:54 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101018144153.U70535@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20101018144153.U70535@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBC6162.8683.148D507@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2010 at 14:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > "FIRST" is always suspect in history, and particularly in technology. > > And the history books in the educational system are BOGUS. I do believe that Whitney invented cotton gin as counterpoint to the really terrible wool vermouth of the time. He probably liked his martinis VERY dry. No accounting for taste, I suppose. --Chuck From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 17:17:03 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:17:03 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I completely agree... but then again, when I rescue something, it >> kills me if it's just sitting there, not doing anything. :) ?Right > > Yep. The purpose of a computer is to 'compute' (whatever that may mean). > I try to get all my machines operationa, but I keep them as origianl as I > can. What I mean by that is that I replace the smallest part I can (chip > rather than PCN, for example), but I don't worry too much if the > rpelacement is not exactly the same as the original part (I'll replace a > 74xx with a 74LSxx if it'll work and I can't get the former). Of course I > keep ?record of what I've done. Good point. My problem is that I know very little about the details of hardware. I am a software guy, through and through, and while I can debug SCSI bus problems and other kinds of simple problems, I'm at a complete loss when it comes to chips. Fortunately, the wonderful people on this list are a huge help. :) > There are plenty of machines I've not got round to working on yet, but I > will... Same here! >> I just realized I had written this and still hadn't made a point. ?I >> believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from >> preserving many other types of collectibles. ?I know of very few >> possessions that can become unusable paperweights when something >> ethereal (like disk contents or tape records) become unreadable, and > > Or EPROM contents, of course. Of course. I certainly didn't mean to leave that out. >> this is something a lot of people (outside this industry) understand. >> When I rescue something, I want to make it WORK, damn it. :) > > Indeed. Whike I generally keep the casaings on my machines (at least when > I am not usinfg them :-), _I_ am not very interested in the styling. Some > people woould want an HP2623 terminal for the rather odd styling, I'm > interested in it because of the little state machine to draw lines. And > thus my inteest comes from the intnerals, and they have to work to be > interesting. Same here. Styling is interesting (my kid was fascinated by the keyboard on my QX-10 because of the special function keys; he wondered why newer machines didn't have those things). Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 17:18:58 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:18:58 -0700 Subject: Preserving computers (here we go again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>?I >> believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from >> preserving many other types of collectibles. > > For those of us that have been around from the very beginnings of the > computer collecting (which seems to be perhaps 1990 or so), or better > for those of use that have been around from before anyone gave a damn, > we see that it has grown up almost perfectly in line with how every > other branch of the antique and collectible trade has. > > 1) A few see potential in some unrealized common items. > 2) Very loose communities form, and collection form. > 3) Snowball effect of more people see the potential and interest grows. > 4) Prices and values start forming, due to supply and demand. > Meanwhile, the good stuff starts getting scarce, > 5) Markets grow, prices stabilize. The high end gets very high, and > the low end gets worthless. > > You name the antique, and it will fit this story. Oddly enough, Ebay > probably has not changed the story much. And this post just shows why I'm not the person everyone should be listening to (since I posted the statement that Will was responding to). *grin* Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 17:33:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <201010180928.03551.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <201010180928.03551.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20101018153026.B70535@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It appears to be based off a TRS-80 model 3 or 4. You do realize that > it's not a photograph, right? :) I think that it looks a little more like a Northstar Advantage, or a Vector Graphic (which were often relabeled - Sellam has my "Pentabs" Vector Graphic) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 18:13:13 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 00:13:13 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009601cb6f1a$11afd540$350f7fc0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 18 October 2010 17:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; 'General Discussion: > On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: More SCSI Confusion > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wickens > > Sent: 17 October 2010 22:34 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > > > On 17/10/10 16:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did > > > not make a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to > > > work, at least some of the time. > > > > > > I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices > > > with a SCSI ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the > > > CD-ROM and the higher HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To > > > prove this I took out DKA600 and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it > DKA500. > > > This time, after the reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and > > > the disk that was at ID 0 and now was at ID 5. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > > >> Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > >> > > >> On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt > > wrote: > > >> > > >>>>>> sh pk* > > >>>>>> > > >>> pka0_host_id 7 > > >>> pka0_mode ultra > > >>> pka0_soft_term diff > > >>> > > >> The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just > > >> 'on' I > > >> > > > think. > > > > > >> -- > > >> adrian/witchy > > >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > > >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > >> > > > > > > > Might be a red herring Rob, but I seem to remember certainly for the > > BA356 integrated into the Alphaserver 1000A that the enclosure could > > be operated in a split bus mode where half the enclosure was on one > > bus and the other half on another. > > > > Just a thought (you might want to cross post this to comp.os.vms). > > > > Mark. > > I posted this to comp.sys.dec and someone told me there about the split > bus. > I will check this. > > Thanks > > Rob I have confirmed that it is indeed working in split bus mode. It seems I need a BA35X-MF jumper module to get it to work in single bus mode. Regards Rob From chd at chdickman.com Mon Oct 18 18:30:44 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:30:44 -0400 Subject: Total Loss of Memory Re: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form > not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously > from a single source. > I keep thinking that Today will be lost forever because nobody thinks it is important NOW. Example: My daughter does not save her digital pictures on a computer because it is too much trouble and, besides, there is more room on the memory card. When the room gets too low, she deletes pictures from her camera because they are from last year and who cares about last year. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 18:38:15 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:38:15 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form > not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously > from a single source. How often do you think that happens (happened?)? Almost never. Archaeology is mostly about sifting through the crap and pulling out the few rare things that you could use as evidence, using these artifacts and documents in their context. It is not easy, because of the "90 percent" rule (Sturgeon's law). Actually, 90 percent might be *very* generous. My cousin, a once-archaeologist (round Roman temples are her thing), has told me of going on digs and having the guys with the backhoes scrape meters thick deposits of Roman crap in order to get to the better stuff. Not dirt, but actual very low grade artifacts (tools, pottery shards, broken household items, etc.). I suppose the same applies to us - saving documentation and software. Lets look at early PC software, or maybe stuff out of DECUS for the PDP-11. Of all the editors that people have written - how many have some sort of interesting programming trick or other historic significance? Or better yet, how about all those financial programs written in RPG or COBOL? Yes, their may be some super cool thing some bored coder did way before it was "invented", but I bet you will have to go through a whole lot of...crap...to find that gem. (yes, I realize that saving docs and software differs in that bits take almost no space) -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 18:41:42 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:41:42 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 2:27 PM > > >> On the other hand, the archaeologists are not qualified to judge > >> the value of the bad poetry and horrid prose to the linguists and > >> and to the historians, who almost certainly will not agree with > >> each other, either. > > > > True, but I bet the "90 percent of everything is crap" rule applied > > back then as it does now. > > Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form > not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously > from a single source. Like the Roman or ancient Greek version of misspelled words, improper grammar, "hillbilly english", street slang, etc? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 18:44:32 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:44:32 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201010181944.33048.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > > From: William Donzelli > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 2:27 PM > > > > >> On the other hand, the archaeologists are not qualified to judge > > >> the value of the bad poetry and horrid prose to the linguists > > >> and and to the historians, who almost certainly will not agree > > >> with each other, either. > > > > > > True, but I bet the "90 percent of everything is crap" rule > > > applied back then as it does now. > > > > Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb > > form not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known > > previously from a single source. > > Like the Roman or ancient Greek version of misspelled words, improper > grammar, "hillbilly english", street slang, etc? Or, the Roman equivalent of lolspeak. Actually, that would be fun to see. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 18:58:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:58:56 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <201010181944.33048.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201010181944.33048.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Or, the Roman equivalent of lolspeak. ?Actually, that would be fun to > see. :) Icanhazlukanika? -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 19:10:57 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:10:57 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:38 PM >> Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form >> not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously >> from a single source. > How often do you think that happens (happened?)? Often enough to make it worthwhile. > Almost never. Archaeology is mostly about sifting through the crap and > pulling out the few rare things that you could use as evidence, using > these artifacts and documents in their context. And the archaeologists often don't know enough linguistics to make the call for the linguistically interesting texts. For example, take _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language_, which examines the vexing question of the Indo-European homeland (yet again). The first third of the book is directed at archaeologists, to try to teach them enough linguistics to understand his arguments in the last third. (The second third is aimed at the linguists, to teach them enough archaeology. Fortunately for me, I took archaeology classes as an undergraduate.) He has some interesting conclusions, although his final analysis is seriously flawed from a linguistic perspective. The difference is, the author is an archaeologist who went to the trouble to read the *linguistic* work on the question in some detail (although his grasp of the details is sometimes howlingly weak). From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 19:16:01 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:16:01 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBC6162.8683.148D507@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I do believe that Whitney invented cotton gin as counterpoint to the > really terrible wool vermouth of the time. He probably liked his > martinis VERY dry. I am loathe to extend this off topic further, but I can't pass up this lead in... For several decades my family was in the cotton ginning business. (As a slight nod to classic computing, I wrote a management system for the gin about 20 years ago.) So when dad was in college he was dating this one girl. When he told her that his family had a cotton gin, she responded: "I didn't know they made gin out of cotton!" BLS From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 19:22:05 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:22:05 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: From: Patrick Finnegan Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:42 PM On Monday, October 18, 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form >> not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously >> from a single source. > Like the Roman or ancient Greek version of misspelled words, improper > grammar, "hillbilly english", street slang, etc? Very good examples, all of them. Poetry is also a good source for archaisms in a language, so that we learn how things were said at a less well attested stage. "Bad" poetry can be just as good as "good" poetry for this. One of my favourites is the evidence provided by spellings of Latin names in Greek. In the first century BCE, the Roman name _Valerius_ is spelt in Greek as _Oualerios_; if you know that "ou" spelt a long u in Greek, you understand one of the reasons that we believe that Latin "v" was pronounced like modern English "w". We know from the Romance languages that that changed, but when? Greek spelling of the same name as _Balerios_ in the first century CE gives us a very narrow time frame, two to three generations, for the change. LOLcats? Not so much. :-) From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 18 19:25:49 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:25:49 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt><4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBCE58D.5090600@snarc.net> > Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get > them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? What if it's a new person who doesn't know anyone in the hobby? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 19:51:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:51:26 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Often enough to make it worthwhile. Well, yes, I think that is obvious. If it was not worthwhile, then nobody would be doing it. The point I made way back when - or was trying to make - is that the destruction of the Library of Alexandria may have been a big loss, but a lot of what went up in smoke was very likely plain old filler. > And the archaeologists often don't know enough linguistics to make the > call for the linguistically interesting texts. That is kind of a slam on archaeologists, isn't it? I bet they could say that linguists often don't know enough history to make the call for the historically interesting texts. "Aw, cripes, it's just another scroll about Roman sewers or something.". -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 18 20:01:51 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:01:51 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/10 4:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Or better yet, how about all those financial programs > written in RPG or COBOL? Yes, their may be some super cool thing some > bored coder did way before it was "invented", but I bet you will have > to go through a whole lot of...crap...to find that gem. > The reason for saving RPG and COBOL isn't to look for clever things, it is to preserve how day to day business was performed using the computing equipment of the time. This is the same reason to preserve system design and procedure manuals for end-user applications. This stuff is even more difficult to find than manufacturer-supplied software! I have spent the past few months collecting EAM and EDP books and conference proceedings from the 50's -> 70's, because CHM had almost nothing on case studies and descriptions of business processes (payroll, inventory, and accounts payable/receivable, etc.) from the punched-card era forward. It's hard to write an overview of software in the 20th century for docents without basic reference material on how non-scientific computing was done. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 20:21:41 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:21:41 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 5:51 PM >> And the archaeologists often don't know enough linguistics to make the >> call for the linguistically interesting texts. > That is kind of a slam on archaeologists, isn't it? I bet they could > say that linguists often don't know enough history to make the > call for the historically interesting texts. "Aw, cripes, it's just > another scroll about Roman sewers or something.". Not intended as a slam, and it is true, mutatis mutandis, of linguists' knowledge of archaeological concerns. However, the linguists would not toss the Roman sewer scrolls--you never know where something interesting about language will turn up--and it's not their business to decide on the historians' interests. Both historical linguistics (which is what I'm talking about) and archaeology (of any stripe) are massive fields, with a great deal of lore for the practitioner to ingest. There is no blame in the practitioners of either field not knowing much about the other. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 20:29:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:29:33 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The reason for saving RPG and COBOL isn't to look for clever things, it > is to preserve how day to day business was performed using the computing > equipment of the time. This is the same reason to preserve system design > and procedure manuals for end-user applications. > > This stuff is even more difficult to find than manufacturer-supplied > software! So now you want all my Univac 9300 RPG cards? You are in deep trouble... -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 18 20:47:11 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:47:11 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBCF89F.40900@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/10 6:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > So now you want all my Univac 9300 RPG cards? Nope, just the card images :-) From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 18 21:14:56 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:14:56 -0400 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBCFF20.9020504@verizon.net> On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: >> I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), >> Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. >> I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) >> Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. >> > > I started with S100 by building my first Altair8800 sn200! Move to a NS* Horizon and an Netronics Exporer8085with all the add on s100 extensions. Now my collection has those and two Compupro S100 systems one Z80 the other 8085/8088. The z80 8mhz system has the MPX1 board for peripheral handling along with hard disk and Mdrive (ramdisk) plus a 256kb of ram. The big set is that Compupro was one of the hardball systems, Cromemco being another. Nice crates both of them and built well. The IMSAI was better than Altair but the S100 bus would evolve to be more than either of them started at. Bus level incompatibilities were a big problem early on and Dram was a nightmare until people figured out that bus level signals could not be counted on as 8080/8085/z80 were all different. Allison From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 18 21:20:00 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:20:00 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> , <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Can I have an AMEN? :-) I have often been as blind as anyone as to the importance of business IT in the history of information technology. Given that this was the driving force for the industry for many years, we need to understand it. Yes, I think RPG is Really Pretty Gross - but as someone who wants to understand how we got from There to Here, I need to understand it and the driving factors behind its development and adoption. Sorry, sometimes the 'crap' is the 'gold' in historical terms. Everyone, take a step back, and a deep breath. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow [aek at bitsavers.org] Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 6:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] On 10/18/10 4:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Or better yet, how about all those financial programs > written in RPG or COBOL? Yes, their may be some super cool thing some > bored coder did way before it was "invented", but I bet you will have > to go through a whole lot of...crap...to find that gem. > The reason for saving RPG and COBOL isn't to look for clever things, it is to preserve how day to day business was performed using the computing equipment of the time. This is the same reason to preserve system design and procedure manuals for end-user applications. This stuff is even more difficult to find than manufacturer-supplied software! I have spent the past few months collecting EAM and EDP books and conference proceedings from the 50's -> 70's, because CHM had almost nothing on case studies and descriptions of business processes (payroll, inventory, and accounts payable/receivable, etc.) from the punched-card era forward. It's hard to write an overview of software in the 20th century for docents without basic reference material on how non-scientific computing was done. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 21:42:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:42:18 -0400 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I have often been as blind as anyone as to the importance of business IT in the history of information technology. ?Given that this was the driving force for the industry for many years, we need to understand it. ?Yes, I think RPG is Really Pretty Gross - but as someone who wants to understand how we got from There to Here, I need to understand it and the driving factors behind its development and adoption. ?Sorry, sometimes the 'crap' is the 'gold' in historical terms. Hey, I am the guy that rescued the 9300 RPG cards! Anyway, perhaps a poor example on my part. Perhaps I should have said all that 1980s RPG and COBOL - well after many of the ideas and practices of business IT had formed. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 18 22:31:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:31:24 -0700 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> References: , , <4CBCEDFF.2000704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBCAE9C.12341.9A0830@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Oct 2010 at 18:01, Al Kossow wrote: > The reason for saving RPG and COBOL isn't to look for clever things, > it is to preserve how day to day business was performed using the > computing equipment of the time. This is the same reason to preserve > system design and procedure manuals for end-user applications. ...although there are some very clever concepts in both, but lots in COBOL in particular. I know of at least one multi-computer distributed real-time inventory system written in COBOL (with considerable help from operating system facilities. Many hundreds of thousands of lines of code. --Chuck From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 18 23:05:42 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:05:42 -0700 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: References: (sfid-20101017_190655_419631_539F0FAB) Message-ID: From: Brad Parker; Monday, October 18, 2010 2:26 PM: >> (I am making excellent headway on a project which translate the 8/i >> schematics, >> including all the options, into Verilog for an FPGA, but I currently have >> this signal >> tied to an input pin for lack of any information about it.) > > I realize it's not what you are doing, that is, I realize that what I did > isn't the same, > but I made an PDP-8/I clone in an FPGA, complete with the RF08 emulation > and > all the time sharing options. I consulted the schematics but didn't > follow them. Yes, I was aware of your work. Yours is up and running, where mine is a ways away, yet :-). > The only reason I mention it is that if when you done you want to boot > TSS/8, I have > images, complete with sources which might be helpful. I would guess that > at > some point you might want to try... (or maybe not, just a thought). I > also have > tools to put together an RF08 disk "image" from the sources. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind when I get that far. > RF08 emulation with a IDE disk was fun in verilog :-) I bet :-). Vince From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Oct 18 23:38:35 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 06:38:35 +0200 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> On 10/18/2010 11:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > But all,*all*, of them have more things in very careful storage than you > will ever see unless you go to work for them--and until you have been > properly trained in their handling, you'll never lay hand on any of the > things around you. > > Luckily not all museums are strict in this regard, or I would not have been able to create my ETH Lilith emulator.... I was enough for them to know I had a working one, and had reliably returned documentation lend to me by the ETH, to lend to me several of the system disks. Regards, Jos Dreesen From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 05:41:30 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:41:30 -0400 Subject: W. Donzelli on Babbage & Machining Message-ID: A top-notch machinist even of that time probably could make Babbage's machine. The question I have is - What would he use it for? Computing! Murray From djg at pdp8online.com Mon Oct 18 07:05:25 2010 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:05:25 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images Message-ID: <201010181205.o9IC5P429203@mail.pdp8online.com> > Problem is, the Boot ROM doesn't seem to have been imaged, and the same > applies to the software discs. I've had a quick look on my 'usual > haunts' (Bitsavers, the Bluefeathertech archive, and Google) but haven't > managed to find anything useful. > Disk images here http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 07:14:16 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBBDB08.8070101@tdh.com> References: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> <4CBBDB08.8070101@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Michael Lee wrote: > On 10/17/2010 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> I've not imaged the ROMs, but will do so if they're socketed, after our >> big yard sale this weekend. (I should be able to reach my 3B1 then) That >> is, if nobody else has gotten to it by then. > > I don't have the means to image them, but I do have a pile of 3b1/Unix PC > motherboards laying in a pile if anyone is willing to do it, I'll just send > the whole board over. Not sure anymore, but I do recall a PAL or two and a > ROM. Most were socketed if I recall. The PAL equations are in the the tech manual. -- From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 19 02:36:30 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 03:36:30 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> > Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that historians tend to dismiss. How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer research. * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for professional computer historians. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 04:23:41 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:23:41 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <009601cb6f1a$11afd540$350f7fc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> <009601cb6f1a$11afd540$350f7fc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 19 October 2010 00:13, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Rob > > I have confirmed that it is indeed working in split bus mode. It seems I > need a BA35X-MF jumper module to get it to work in single bus mode. > That should be under the other fan, you normally just swap them over top to bottom. If you look in the front of the enclosure you'll see a pin poking through near the top and bottom, I think they're marked 'T' and 'J'. This shows you which is currently the jumper and which is the terminator. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 19 05:20:24 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:20:24 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> <009601cb6f1a$11afd540$350f7fc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b001cb6f77$3fca3940$bf5eabc0$@ntlworld.com> As far as I can tell, I only have a terminator module (behind slot 6), but not a jumper module. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 19 October 2010 10:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 19 October 2010 00:13, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Rob > > > > I have confirmed that it is indeed working in split bus mode. It seems > > I need a BA35X-MF jumper module to get it to work in single bus mode. > > > > That should be under the other fan, you normally just swap them over top to > bottom. If you look in the front of the enclosure you'll see a pin poking > through near the top and bottom, I think they're marked 'T' > and 'J'. This shows you which is currently the jumper and which is the > terminator. > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 19 08:07:52 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 06:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles issues to be scanned... In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: This is what I have left to scan: All but the August issue for 1986. Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul/Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec - 1985 Dec/Jan - 1985 Nov - 1984 Feb, Mar, Dec/Jan 1987 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 08:13:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:13:10 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> Message-ID: > How do you figure? ?The early history of digital computing, especially in > the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations. But past 1955 or so - what gets mentioned? SAGE, of course, and often a passing mention that ARPAnet was sort of military, but what else? Not much gets mentioned beyond these. Of course, some of it is still quite classified (crypto), which does not help matters. And the Soviet stuff is almost completely undiscovered. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 10:17:56 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 08:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <646056.59468.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I thought this was an interesting conversation on reddit. If you take out the trolls some of the comments are interesting http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dt5um/it_is_about_time_for_some_personal_computing/ "It is about time for some personal computing history revision: neither Steve Jobs or Bill Gates invented the personal computer. It is really all about Chuck Peddle, the guy that designed the 6502 and said "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing evil about Bill Gates. " From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 19 10:24:36 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:24:36 -0500 Subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit In-Reply-To: <646056.59468.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <646056.59468.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201010191524.o9JFOmFw006195@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:17 AM 10/19/2010, Christian Liendo wrote: >I thought this was an interesting conversation on reddit. >If you take out the trolls some of the comments are interesting >http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dt5um/it_is_about_time_for_some_personal_computing/ In following a few links from that story, I was surprised to see that it was Allen-Bradley, an old-line Milwaukee company, who funded the startup of MOS Technology back in 1969, as a second-source for calculator chips. A-B made calculators? Or was this part of some industrial control? - John From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 19 11:14:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:14:40 -0600 Subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:24:36 -0500. <201010191524.o9JFOmFw006195@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201010191524.o9JFOmFw006195 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > In following a few links from that story, I was surprised to see that > it was Allen-Bradley, an old-line Milwaukee company, who funded the > startup of MOS Technology back in 1969, as a second-source for calculator chi ps. > > A-B made calculators? Or was this part of some industrial control? I know they made terminals for industrial (i.e. manufacturing and process control) environments. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 19 12:25:10 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:25:10 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 19, at 12:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >> historians tend to dismiss. > > How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially > in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations. > Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this > year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a > Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses > on Cold War computer research. > > * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of > Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and > Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for > professional computer historians. Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 19 12:54:23 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:54:23 -0700 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: <4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> <4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: From: Jos Dreesen Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:39 PM On 10/18/2010 11:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> But all,*all*, of them have more things in very careful storage than you >> will ever see unless you go to work for them--and until you have been >> properly trained in their handling, you'll never lay hand on any of the >> things around you. > Luckily not all museums are strict in this regard, or I would not have > been able to create my ETH Lilith emulator.... > I was enough for them to know I had a working one, and had reliably > returned documentation lend to me by the ETH, to lend to me several of > the system disks. Clearly, someone decided that you had been properly trained! ;-) Seriously, each museum makes that determination by its own criteria--but each museum makes that determination. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 12:39:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Preserving computers (here we go again) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 18, 10 05:24:18 pm Message-ID: > > >=A0I > > believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from > > preserving many other types of collectibles. > > For those of us that have been around from the very beginnings of the > computer collecting (which seems to be perhaps 1990 or so), or better > for those of use that have been around from before anyone gave a damn, > we see that it has grown up almost perfectly in line with how every > other branch of the antique and collectible trade has. > > 1) A few see potential in some unrealized common items. > 2) Very loose communities form, and collection form. > 3) Snowball effect of more people see the potential and interest grows. > 4) Prices and values start forming, due to supply and demand. > Meanwhile, the good stuff starts getting scarce, > 5) Markets grow, prices stabilize. The high end gets very high, and > the low end gets worthless. What on earth has any of that got to do with the methods of preservation? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 12:42:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:42:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 18, 10 05:40:37 pm Message-ID: > something down - well, you had better start writing it down. And we > know people in power almost never have good taste. Talk about sweeping generalisations... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 12:52:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:52:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Oct 18, 10 03:17:03 pm Message-ID: > > Yep. The purpose of a computer is to 'compute' (whatever that may mean). > > I try to get all my machines operationa, but I keep them as origianl as I > > can. What I mean by that is that I replace the smallest part I can (chip > > rather than PCN, for example), but I don't worry too much if the > > rpelacement is not exactly the same as the original part (I'll replace a > > 74xx with a 74LSxx if it'll work and I can't get the former). Of course I > > keep =A0record of what I've done. > > Good point. My problem is that I know very little about the details > of hardware. I am a software guy, through and through, and while I I often have the reverse problem. I am happy enough with a schematic and soldering iron, but trying to dowhat many here would consider to be trivial software-related tasks can be a major effort for me. But I generally find a work-around.. > > Indeed. Whike I generally keep the casaings on my machines (at least when > > I am not usinfg them :-), _I_ am not very interested in the styling. Some > > people woould want an HP2623 terminal for the rather odd styling, I'm > > interested in it because of the little state machine to draw lines. And > > thus my inteest comes from the intnerals, and they have to work to be > > interesting. > > Same here. Styling is interesting (my kid was fascinated by the I have no intetnion to belittle those who collect machiens because of their styling, all I will sway it that it's not _my_ primary interest. Becasue of my hardware interests, i find beauty in a well-designed bit of electronics, for example/ That aaid, I do like particularly unusual bits of mechanical design too. Like the HP9816 where all the PCBs apart from the PSU can be removed by undoing 2 quarter-trun fasteners nad removing 1 screw. > keyboard on my QX-10 because of the special function keys; he wondered > why newer machines didn't have those things). Err, don't they? What are the 'F1' to 'F12' keys on this PC keyboard, then? The 'Insert', 'Delete', 'Home', etc keys. The Windows-specific keys (which the keyboard driver here does nothing with, but they're still on this cheap keyboard)? If you mean very special and specific keys, I guess they rather limit the sort of software you can run, or at least which will make sensible use of the keyboard. -tony From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 14:21:25 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:21:25 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Indeed. Whike I generally keep the casaings on my machines (at least when >> > I am not usinfg them :-), _I_ am not very interested in the styling. Some >> > people woould want an HP2623 terminal for the rather odd styling, I'm >> > interested in it because of the little state machine to draw lines. And >> > thus my inteest comes from the intnerals, and they have to work to be >> > interesting. >> >> Same here. ?Styling is interesting (my kid was fascinated by the > > I have no intetnion to belittle those who collect machiens because of > their styling, all I will sway it that it's not _my_ primary interest. > Becasue of my hardware interests, i find beauty in a well-designed bit of > electronics, for example/ I certainly hope no one thought I was belittling someone's decision to collect machines because of style, because that wasn't my intention. :) > That aaid, I do like particularly unusual bits of mechanical design too. > Like the HP9816 where all the PCBs apart from the PSU can be removed by > undoing 2 quarter-trun fasteners nad removing 1 screw. > >> keyboard on my QX-10 because of the special function keys; he wondered >> why newer machines didn't have those things). > > Err, don't they? What are the 'F1' to 'F12' keys on this PC keyboard, > then? The 'Insert', 'Delete', 'Home', etc keys. The Windows-specific keys > (which the keyboard driver here does nothing with, but they're still on > this cheap keyboard)? > > If you mean very special and specific keys, I guess they rather limit the > sort of software you can run, or at least which will make sensible use of > the keyboard. I actually did mean that. He's only 14, so he's used to the keyboards most in use these days, with F1-F12, Insert, Delete, etc. I think he was fascinated by the differences in the QX-10 keyboard. He had never seen anything like it. Mark From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 19 14:24:36 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:24:36 +0200 Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBDF074.5040205@bluewin.ch> On 10/18/2010 10:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Mr 1519 approval rating bid $30,100 as a snipe. At least it wasn't a >> 0 feedback ID that did it. >> > I assume this is the 'genuine' one, not the one that was almost certainly > fraudulent. > > Inwhich case, my jaw has just hit the floor. How much??? Oh well, another > machine I will never get to investigate :-( > Well, you could always sell a few machines that no longer interest you ! Jos From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 14:25:03 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:25:03 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 18 October 2010 04:01, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? >> > Will the machines share the information with the humans? ?Or, by that >> > time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the >> > biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? > > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, ben wrote: >> I think i'll just clean my phone once a year ... >> ? everybody else most likely will buy a clean NEW phone every year ... >> PS.. I thought they only built one ark. > > Once they had built and launched the B ark (the FIRST one), they settled > in and libed gappily ever after, until they were all wiped out by a > virulent phone plague. > (or was it a giant mutant space goat?) "Oh, I've heard of worse," said Ford, "I read of one planet off in the seventh dimension that got used as a ball in a game of intergalactic bar billiards. Got potted straight into a black hole. Killed ten billion people." "That's mad," said Mella. "Yes, only scored thirty points too." -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 14:37:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:37:16 +0100 Subject: Mac Classic near death... or at least an OOBE... In-Reply-To: <4CBA1C54.6020406@30below.com> References: <4CBA1C54.6020406@30below.com> Message-ID: On 16 October 2010 22:42, Roger Merchberger wrote: > So, there's a Mac Classic that was dropped off at my friends' store > (otherwise headed for the skip/dumpster) and I "rescued" it. Yes, I used > quotes, as there was this "weird" bright yellow and purple goo emanating > from the unit. > > Thinking something completely odd was spilled *into* the unit, I took it > apart to find the damage. Turns out, the PRAM battery was in such bad shape > that it was the source of both the purple (rust & other dissolved metals) > and yellow (still not sure what that is) goo. > > I had to pry the motherboard out of the unit (slightly destructively) due to > the corrosion on the rails on one side of the motherboard rails just to > remove the motherboard. Whatever was bent can be unbent, but will need a > *lot* of cleaning to refurbish. > > The contacts for the PRAM battery were completely gone on the (+) side, and > gosh-darned near gone on the (-) side (enough so that it couldn't be > repaired). I removed the PRAM battery & holder (with a pair of pliers as it > was also damaged to an unrepairable state). > > That said, what do I actually do with the thing? My idea: Disassemble the > unit and turn it into a 68K "microcontroller" trainer unit with a > recent(ish) Flash ROM and Static RAM. Yes, I have the technology to build > that. Or... back to the original destination (bad). > > Anyone want it for price of shipping? > > And yes, for those "keeping score" I have now built a "Mac Cracker." Do I > get a prize for being the "Last Geek Ever" to build one? ;-) > > Laterz, > "Merch" Macquarium. http://lowendmac.com/compact/macquarium.shtml TBH, the Classic was a bit of a "road apple" when it worked fine. http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 19 14:37:16 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:37:16 +0200 Subject: PDP-8/L lamps Message-ID: <4CBDF36C.5050009@bluewin.ch> So where would I get exact equivalents for the 8-L bulbs these days ? around 10 pcs needed..... Jos From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 19 15:26:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:26:26 -0700 Subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4CBD9C82.26726.1766DC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2010 at 10:14, Richard wrote: > I know they made terminals for industrial (i.e. manufacturing and > process control) environments. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- > DirectX 9 draft available for download > e/> I still have a boot disk for one of their "Advisor" CP/M systems. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 15:29:46 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:29:46 +0100 Subject: Dyspeptic archaeologists [was RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <201010181941.42676.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 19 October 2010 01:22, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 4:42 PM > > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Doesn't matter that it's crap if it contains an interesting verb form >>> not seen before, or mentions an historical fact only known previously >>> from a single source. > >> Like the Roman or ancient Greek version of misspelled words, improper >> grammar, "hillbilly english", street slang, etc? > > Very good examples, all of them. > > Poetry is also a good source for archaisms in a language, so that we learn > how things were said at a less well attested stage. ?"Bad" poetry can be > just as good as "good" poetry for this. > > One of my favourites is the evidence provided by spellings of Latin names > in Greek. ?In the first century BCE, the Roman name _Valerius_ is spelt in > Greek as _Oualerios_; if you know that "ou" spelt a long u in Greek, you > understand one of the reasons that we believe that Latin "v" was pronounced > like modern English "w". ?We know from the Romance languages that that > changed, but when? ?Greek spelling of the same name as _Balerios_ in the > first century CE gives us a very narrow time frame, two to three > generations, for the change. > > LOLcats? ?Not so much. :-) Well, that little bit of information made my day. Thanks for that! I think there is currently-much-underappreciated value in preserving knowledge of old computers because of the things they did that modern ones do not. I know full-time senior IT professionals who have never seen an OS older than Windows XP and most IT professionals have never seen or used anything but Windows. The view of the modern computer expert could be approximated by something like: OSs are always written in C and compiled. Interpreters are only used for scripting. Computers work by loading compiled binaries files from a hierarchical filesystem on disk into separately-managed RAM, where it's executed according to the user's privilege level. All computers are at least 32-bit and the only important architectures ever were 386 and ARM. PowerPC is weird and marginal. Macs have always been x86, the PC started with Windows XP. A few very old-timers remember Windows 2000. Memory always came in DIMMs. All computers multitask, have GUIs and mice. Multiuser is normal. Unix is weird and used by old men in big old companies. Temporary storage is on USB Flash sticks. For booting, you use a CD. Networking *means* TCP/IP over Ethernet. VMs were invented by VMware about 6-7y ago. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 19 15:34:52 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:34:52 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <4CBDF074.5040205@bluewin.ch> References: <4CBDF074.5040205@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4CBE00EC.8020808@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/10 12:24 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Oh well, another >> machine I will never get to investigate :-( > You can always use the simulator. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 19 16:02:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:02:40 -0600 Subject: Funky keyboards (was: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:21:25 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Mark Davidson writes: > > If you mean very special and specific keys, I guess they rather limit the > > sort of software you can run, or at least which will make sensible use of > > the keyboard. > > I actually did mean that. He's only 14, so he's used to the keyboards > most in use these days, with F1-F12, Insert, Delete, etc. I think he > was fascinated by the differences in the QX-10 keyboard. He had never > seen anything like it. When people are geeky enough to be interested in my collection of serial terminals, this is one of the things I point out. I give them a tour of the different keyboards. Most people don't realize that there was a time when lower case was a luxury :-). I show them Tektronix 4010 keyboards where punctuation characters are available on the shifted alphabetic keys. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 19 16:10:08 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:10:08 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> >>> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >>> historians tend to dismiss. >> >> How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, >> especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military >> installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. >> .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* >> is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a >> great read and focuses on Cold War computer research. >> >> * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of >> Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and >> Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for >> professional computer historians. > > Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in > that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC) both went to the Army. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 19 17:07:31 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:07:31 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> Message-ID: <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 19, at 2:10 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >>>> historians tend to dismiss. >>> >>> How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, >>> especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military >>> installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. >>> .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum >>> Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book >>> is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer research. >>> >>> * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of >>> Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and >>> Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for >>> professional computer historians. >> >> Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in >> that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) > > I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC) > both went to the Army. Is there some ref for this in relation to SEAC? From online refs I see DYSEAC was built by NBS for delivery to the Army, but everything I have seen for SEAC (1950) indicates it was at NBS for many years, where it played a role in early image processing experiments (1957). It did some computing for other gov agencies, but it's prime of life seems to have been at NBS. From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 19 17:20:28 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:20:28 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> >> >>>>> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >>>>> historians tend to dismiss. >>>> >>>> How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, >>>> especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military >>>> installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, >>>> etc. .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum >>>> Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book >>>> is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer research. >>>> >>>> * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of >>>> Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and >>>> Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for >>>> professional computer historians. >>> >>> Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC >>> in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) >> >> I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC) >> both went to the Army. > > > Is there some ref for this in relation to SEAC? From online refs I see > DYSEAC was built by NBS for delivery to the Army, but everything I > have seen for SEAC (1950) indicates it was at NBS for many years, > where it played a role in early image processing experiments (1957). > It did some computing for other gov agencies, but it's prime of life > seems to have been at NBS. SEAC was used for nuclear weapons testing. That's military. Keep in mind that just because a system resided at a non-military installation doesn't mean the military didn't use it. For example, the Signal Corps lab that's now our museum was a customer of the Moore School's differential analyzers. In addition to the book I recommended, another great source of relevant history is the Office of Naval Research's "Digital Computer Newsletter". Many of the issues are online. They provided regular updates to the mil/industrial complex about the status and applications of Giant Brains. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 17:32:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:32:18 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> Message-ID: > SEAC was used for nuclear weapons testing. ?That's military. I guess that means PDP-8s are military. And Dells, for that matter. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 19 17:32:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:32:58 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> References: , <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca>, <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CBDBA2A.14140.1EB5F23@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2010 at 18:20, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Keep in mind that just because a system resided at a non-military > installation doesn't mean the military didn't use it. For example, > the Signal Corps lab that's now our museum was a customer of the Moore > School's differential analyzers. ...not forgetting the big iron at the various national laboratories (LLL, LANL, etc.). The "bombers" always got priority time on the big systems to run their simulations. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 19 17:35:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:35:24 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 19, at 3:20 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> >>>>>> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >>>>>> historians tend to dismiss. >>>>> >>>>> How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, >>>>> especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military >>>>> installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, >>>>> etc. .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History >>>>> Museum Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. >>>>> The book is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer >>>>> research. >>>>> >>>>> * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of >>>>> Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, >>>>> and Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization >>>>> for professional computer historians. >>>> >>>> Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC >>>> in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) >>> >>> I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC) >>> both went to the Army. >> >> >> Is there some ref for this in relation to SEAC? From online refs I >> see DYSEAC was built by NBS for delivery to the Army, but everything >> I have seen for SEAC (1950) indicates it was at NBS for many years, >> where it played a role in early image processing experiments (1957). >> It did some computing for other gov agencies, but it's prime of life >> seems to have been at NBS. > > SEAC was used for nuclear weapons testing. That's military. > > Keep in mind that just because a system resided at a non-military > installation doesn't mean the military didn't use it. For example, > the Signal Corps lab that's now our museum was a customer of the Moore > School's differential analyzers. Indeed, but I wouldn't say that just because a machine did some computing for mil apps/clients, that that makes it a military machine. Apparently it did some variety of computing tasks, I haven't seen anything to suggest it's commissioning, primary use or majority effort was for mil purposes. > In addition to the book I recommended, another great source of > relevant history is the Office of Naval Research's "Digital Computer > Newsletter". Many of the issues are online. They provided regular > updates to the mil/industrial complex about the status and > applications of Giant Brains. From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 19 18:03:45 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 19:03:45 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> >> SEAC was used for nuclear weapons testing. That's military. > I guess that means PDP-8s are military. And Dells, for that matter. This isn't a point worth arguing. You can't compare Dells, built by the millions, to a one-off government machine in an era with only a few dozen computers in existence. If you want an argument, go pick on Tony instead. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Oct 19 18:18:32 2010 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:18:32 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/L lamps In-Reply-To: <4CBDF36C.5050009@bluewin.ch> References: <4CBDF36C.5050009@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5B8C3EAC9D4343B8944FCEE054A87103@Vincew7> > So where would I get exact equivalents for the 8-L bulbs these days ? > around 10 pcs needed..... "Exact" would be tricky, as the 10V bulbs don't seem to be manufactured any more. However, the CM7371/CEC7371 should work fine and is available from Farnell/Newark and from Mouser. (Oddly, it looks like Farnell ships them from the USA but they cost less if ordered from Farnell, rather than Newark.) If you have old panels around, the originals are the ones with the blue base. They were used in the 8/E bulb panels, as well as other DEC gear. They may be marked OL-2 on the base. The CM2309 was an exact equivalent for the OL-2, and I've seen those in old panels too. (I've also seen others, often wildly the wrong bulb for the job.) Vince From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 18:54:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 19:54:22 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> Message-ID: > This isn't a point worth arguing. If you are going to proclaim something, be prepared to defend it. Any, if SEAC was a military machine, it should have a number, or more likely a bunch of numbers, associated with the nomenclature. If you can give me a documented nomenclature, I will concede and call SEAC a military machine. Valid numbers include JETDS, Army/Navy/Air Force Stock numbers (pre-NSN and FSN, of course), AFSAV stock numbers, Army/Navy/Air Force procurement contract numbers, and so on. Everything in the military has a number. > If you want an argument, go pick on Tony instead. Nah...I killfiled him years ago. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 19 19:07:56 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:07:56 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CBE32DC.5080504@snarc.net> >> This isn't a point worth arguing. > If you are going to proclaim something, be prepared to defend it. I did. You didn't like my defense. Oh well. I don't think it is worth going on and on about. > If you can give me a documented nomenclature, I will concede and call SEAC a military machine. Why should I care what you call it? My only point is that it doesn't make sense to say historians "tend to dismiss" military computing, because the early history of digital computing and the early history of military computing are inextricably linked, and also because there is a HUGE amount of professionally done history about the subjects. In short, I'm saying "Will Donzelli is wrong" .... even though I that's very difficult for someone like you to accept. :-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 19:14:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:14:58 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBE32DC.5080504@snarc.net> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> <4CBE32DC.5080504@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I don't think it is worth going > on and on about. OK. Done. > In short, I'm saying "Will Donzelli is wrong" .... even though I that's very > difficult for someone like you to accept. ? :-) Gee, thanks. -- Will From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Oct 19 19:33:58 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:33:58 -0400 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160495302854 Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. Has anyone ever seen this? Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 19 19:40:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:40:04 -0600 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:33:58 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160495302854 > > Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. > Has anyone ever seen this? No, but as they say, there's one born every minute. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From technobug at comcast.net Tue Oct 19 19:42:05 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:42:05 -0700 Subject: Triage I - PROM Programmers & 5400s Message-ID: <5B7A5431-5E65-41A7-88A0-66E43AAFAD5A@comcast.net> I'm in the midst of chipping away at "The Pile" and offer the following to the list prior to supporting Witman's campaign or skipping them: Two PROM programmers: US$ 10 each + shipping - See: Data I/O Model 20B MOS Memory Programmer. I have no info on the beast, but appears to program the following: 2704 2732 764N 2708 732A 2764 2716 7320 8741 2508 7321 8748 2516 8764 8749 4816 2564 8755 2532 SPI Model 8407. PROMs are listed on the pull-out card pictured. Again no info available. I also have five bundles of ~300 14-pin ceramic ICs that test out as 5400/7400 TTL. Assume that they are 5400s since they came from a Hughes Aircrash auction many years ago. Available for postage. Shipping from 85704 - USA CRC From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 19 20:02:23 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:02:23 -0700 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/10 5:33 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. > Has anyone ever seen this? > Yes. Unfortunately, several of these companies are listing on Amazon and Bookfinder as well. I made the mistake of buying a history of the Newton Programming Language from "Books LLC" Memphis, TN. It appears to be a print on demand, nicely formatted copy of the content of the Wikipedia entry for Dylan. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 19 20:07:26 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:07:26 -0700 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBE40CE.10103@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/10 6:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/19/10 5:33 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > >> Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. >> Has anyone ever seen this? >> > > Yes. Unfortunately, several of these companies are listing on Amazon and Bookfinder > as well. > > I made the mistake of buying a history of the Newton Programming Language Dylan > from "Books LLC" Memphis, TN. > > It appears to be a print on demand, nicely formatted copy of the content > of the Wikipedia entry for Dylan. > It was less than 40 pages, including front matter and index and was $10 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Oct 19 20:43:53 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:43:53 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Hi, I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on this list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around the Net. My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it on and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking back after that! http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated with the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under the hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting I found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in order to keep these machines up and running! See http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. My main motivation for collecting these old machines is to preserve a slice of history (particularly in the New Zealand context), and perhaps even display (and give talks about) the units when I retire years down the track. I like to have every machine working, with original manuals and decked out with software of the day. Let's face it, it's also great to have all those machines you used to covert back then! Now that I know more about it, I've (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to obsessive lengths to make them so. Anyway, that's all about me. I'm working full-time, have a number of other interests and may not get a chance to contribute too often. However, I hope to share classic computing thoughts/issues where I'm able. Terry Stewart (Tez) http://www.classic-computers.org.nz From fjgjr1 at aol.com Tue Oct 19 21:04:17 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:04:17 -0400 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <8CD3E123C176309-1564-13E53@webmail-m101.sysops.aol.com> Hearty welcome Tez - finally - so sorry it took so long for whatever reasons. !!! Please contribute to this site as you have done on vintage computer Frank GADFRAN on the vintage computer site and Kaypro buddy !!! -----Original Message----- From: Terry Stewart To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, Oct 19, 2010 9:43 pm Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) Hi, I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on this list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around the Net. My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it on and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking back after that! http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated with the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under the hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting I found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in order to keep these machines up and running! See http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. My main motivation for collecting these old machines is to preserve a slice of history (particularly in the New Zealand context), and perhaps even display (and give talks about) the units when I retire years down the track. I like to have every machine working, with original manuals and decked out with software of the day. Let's face it, it's also great to have all those machines you used to covert back then! Now that I know more about it, I've (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to obsessive lengths to make them so. Anyway, that's all about me. I'm working full-time, have a number of other interests and may not get a chance to contribute too often. However, I hope to share classic computing thoughts/issues where I'm able. Terry Stewart (Tez) http://www.classic-computers.org.nz From mike at fenz.net Tue Oct 19 21:26:02 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:26:02 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Hi Terry, Welcome to the list, from another NZ classic-cmper. Whereabouts in NZ are you located? I also enjoy getting dead machines going; my current challenge is finding RAM for a Sega SC3000H. I was hoping someone might have some spare MCM4517s for sale (from memory, hopefully that number's right), not much luck in tracking them down at a decent cost yet. I'm not that great at troubleshooting dead machines, but I like the challenge. Mike On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:43:53 +1300, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Hi, > > I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on > this > list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer > Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around > the Net. > > My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I > created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm > > However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started > collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P > someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it > on > and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now > had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking > back > after that! > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm > > I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated > with > the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew > nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, > flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under > the > hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting I > > found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in > order > to keep these machines up and running! See > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the > vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with > sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge > regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. > > My main motivation for collecting these old machines is to preserve a slice > > of history (particularly in the New Zealand context), and perhaps even > display (and give talks about) the units when I retire years down the > track. > I like to have every machine working, with original manuals and decked out > with software of the day. Let's face it, it's also great to have all those > > machines you used to covert back then! Now that I know more about it, I've > > (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as > satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a > fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and > plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to > obsessive > lengths to make them so. > > Anyway, that's all about me. I'm working full-time, have a number of other > > interests and may not get a chance to contribute too often. However, I > hope > to share classic computing thoughts/issues where I'm able. > > Terry Stewart (Tez) > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 21:42:55 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:42:55 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> <4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE0930.8060205@snarc.net> <32fa84be8f0493859c041cce69855dd1@cs.ubc.ca> <4CBE19AC.5010001@snarc.net> <4CBE23D1.7070003@snarc.net> <4CBE32DC.5080504@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't think it is worth going > > on and on about. > > OK. Done. > > > In short, I'm saying "Will Donzelli is wrong" .... even though I that's > very > > difficult for someone like you to accept. :-) > > Gee, thanks. > > yea really, I mean, if you didn't know that Romans were first to start with fast food including even *hamburgers*, what can you say ;) 'What Romans did for us' BBC docu (2000) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Oct 19 22:29:04 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:29:04 -0500 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto Message-ID: <4CBE6200.6090409@comcast.net> Couple updates and requests for help. Got the CRT repaired and WORKING! The culprit was the 100k sliding pot control on the underside of the CRT. Now that I have a working CRT, it is on to the next step of diagnosing in which I need advice. I noticed the cursor is a hardware cursor, does this mean if I get the display board working (and if only the display card is working) will it output the cursor to the CRT? If so, this is great news as I can focus on repairing a single board. If not, do you know which boards I need to get working at a MINIMUM to get ANY display on the CRT (either the hardware cursor, or some sort of diagnostic boot code to output to the CRT)? Thanks! Nick From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 19 23:53:07 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:53:07 -0700 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4CBE6200.6090409@comcast.net> References: <4CBE6200.6090409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CBE75B3.4010209@brouhaha.com> Nick Allen wrote: > I noticed the cursor is a hardware cursor, does this mean if I get the > display board working (and if only the display card is working) will > it output the cursor to the CRT? No. The microcode has to be running to get the display board to do anything. > If so, this is great news as I can focus on repairing a single > board. If not, do you know which boards I need to get working at a > MINIMUM to get ANY display on the CRT (either the hardware cursor, or > some sort of diagnostic boot code to output to the CRT)? Nearly all of them, unfortunately. You could get by with only partial memory. It's been a while since I looked at the microcode listing, but I don't think you'll get anything but a blank raster until you get some code booted and running. You need either the Ethernet or the disk controller to do that. Since you probably don't have any other 3 Mbps Ethernet hosts that can serve the boot protocol, you'll need the disk controller, drive, and a bootable pack. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 19 23:59:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:59:48 -0700 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4CBE6200.6090409@comcast.net> References: <4CBE6200.6090409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CBE7744.4010800@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/10 8:29 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Couple updates and requests for help. > > Got the CRT repaired and WORKING! The culprit was the 100k sliding pot control on the underside of the CRT. Now that I have a working CRT, it is on to the next step of diagnosing in which I need advice. > > I noticed the cursor is a hardware cursor, does this mean if I get the display board working (and if only the display card is working) will it output the cursor to the CRT? nope. Nothing will appear until the OS is booted. >If not, do you know which boards I need to get working at a MINIMUM to get ANY display on the CRT (either the hardware cursor, or some sort of diagnostic > boot code to output to the CRT)? > There is no diagnostic boot code. The Alto wasn't designed for maintainance. Almost everything has to work before anything appears to happen. You can take out the Tricon interface (and Tricon Mux if you have one). Everything else needs to be there. The key noise to listen for are disk seeks when you push the reset button, the system will read the boot track, locate the operating system, and read several cylinders worth of data. At that point, it sizes memory, intializes the display list, and cursor, then reads in a bunch more stuff at various places on the disk. After all that, characters start to appear, then an OS prompt ">" From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 20 00:06:01 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:06:01 +0200 Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <4CBE00EC.8020808@bitsavers.org> References: <4CBDF074.5040205@bluewin.ch> <4CBE00EC.8020808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBE78B9.1080204@bluewin.ch> On 10/19/2010 10:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/19/10 12:24 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> Oh well, another >>> machine I will never get to investigate :-( >> > > You can always use the simulator. > Which I do., but the above statement was by Tony, not by me. I could imagine myself spending that kind of money, but only when I also had the time to appriciate the machine. jos From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 20 00:56:51 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 good news Message-ID: As many of you have already know, I've cancelled the new run of P112s and am in the process of issuing refunds to all who put money down. This takes a while. The good news is that Professor Feedlebom recently discovered at least six populated boards left over from the last run. Our intent is to gather the leftover parts from the last run and assemble kit bags. They will be offered to those who placed preorders in chronological order -- one kit per customer -- until people on that list have had a shot. I'll know more about how many kits will be available when Feedle takes a trip to his storage unit on Thursday -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Oct 20 00:14:01 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 00:14:01 -0500 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4CBE75B3.4010209@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBE75B3.4010209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBE7A99.5020503@comcast.net> There must be some way to get the hardware cursor to appear even without booting to ethernet or the disk drive... I do have a disk drive, controller and disk packs, but as you mentioned it requires almost all the boards to be working, which may be very difficult if I can't gradually get things working and tested (such as the display board). I have however confirmed with an o-scope that I am getting the correct video output from the video board, so I assume that board is working properly. Now about a dozen more boards to go! From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Oct 20 01:57:39 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:57:39 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> References: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk><4CBD4A7E.4090905@snarc.net> <14906048f47a4dc1b2cb5d3bd57a84cd@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: And we have a winner!! The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate the stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world to do so Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: 19 October 2010 18:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) On 2010 Oct 19, at 12:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that >> historians tend to dismiss. > > How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially > in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations. > Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this > year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a > Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses > on Cold War computer research. > > * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of > Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and > Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for > professional computer historians. Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers) From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Oct 20 02:16:59 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:16:59 +0100 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com><4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: >From my perspective museums are icebergs. Most of what they have can't be seen. Their idea is to put items into storage in whatever condition they arrived in and do nothing unless the item can form part of a display. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: 19 October 2010 18:54 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] From: Jos Dreesen Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:39 PM On 10/18/2010 11:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> But all,*all*, of them have more things in very careful storage than you >> will ever see unless you go to work for them--and until you have been >> properly trained in their handling, you'll never lay hand on any of the >> things around you. > Luckily not all museums are strict in this regard, or I would not have > been able to create my ETH Lilith emulator.... > I was enough for them to know I had a working one, and had reliably > returned documentation lend to me by the ETH, to lend to me several of > the system disks. Clearly, someone decided that you had been properly trained! ;-) Seriously, each museum makes that determination by its own criteria--but each museum makes that determination. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Oct 20 02:29:14 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:29:14 +0100 Subject: Preserving computers (here we go again) In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 18, 10 05:24:18 pm Message-ID: I have a collection of DEC systems. All my complete systems work or are being brought up to working condition. All the spare boards are tested and tagged. There is only one non DEC system I have an interest in collecting and that?s a NorthStar Horizion. About 1980 I did a lot of development in CBASIC under CP/M using Wordstar as a programmers editor on one with an attached LSI ADM3A and Diabolo 630 daisywheel printer. So my idea is to recreate an actual working set up in use circa 1980 So far I only have a motherboard. ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 19 October 2010 18:40 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Preserving computers (here we go again) > > >=A0I > > believe that preserving classic computers is VERY different from > > preserving many other types of collectibles. > > For those of us that have been around from the very beginnings of the > computer collecting (which seems to be perhaps 1990 or so), or better > for those of use that have been around from before anyone gave a damn, > we see that it has grown up almost perfectly in line with how every > other branch of the antique and collectible trade has. > > 1) A few see potential in some unrealized common items. > 2) Very loose communities form, and collection form. > 3) Snowball effect of more people see the potential and interest grows. > 4) Prices and values start forming, due to supply and demand. > Meanwhile, the good stuff starts getting scarce, > 5) Markets grow, prices stabilize. The high end gets very high, and > the low end gets worthless. What on earth has any of that got to do with the methods of preservation? -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 20 04:49:26 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:49:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com><4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, Rod Smallwood wrote: > From my perspective museums are icebergs. Most of what they have can't be > seen. Their idea is to put items into storage in whatever condition they > arrived in and do nothing unless the item can form part of a display. That's surely true. If one gives us ten ar of display space, we could easily fill that with items beneath the top of the iceberg. Christian From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 20 06:11:38 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:11:38 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: (sfid-20101019_000728_506568_B050F551) References: (sfid-20101017_190655_419631_539F0FAB) (sfid-20101019_000728_506568_B050F551) Message-ID: <4CBECE6A.2050500@heeltoe.com> On 10/19/2010 12:05 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > Yes, I was aware of your work. Yours is up and running, where mine is > a ways away, > yet :-). but your approach is aesthetically pleasing. I like it a lot. But I wonder how much of the 8/I design depends on gate delays. From my read of the schematics, which I admit has been only cursory, there seemed to be a lot of "pulse logic", which I worry about in an FPGA. You should be able to simulate it, but it may be interesting to see how that synthesizes. * *Still, worth doing, with a very cool result. I think I might have an RF08 VPI model if you want one. It's simple but it might give you a leg up. (I still like the idea of a big PCB with lots of TTL which functions an 8/I. I'd buy one :-) -brad From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 20 09:45:07 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:45:07 -0700 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: <4CBECE6A.2050500@heeltoe.com> References: (sfid-20101017_190655_419631_539F0FAB) (sfid-20101019_000728_506568_B050F551) <4CBECE6A.2050500@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:11 AM > On 10/19/2010 12:05 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Yes, I was aware of your work. Yours is up and running, where mine is a >> ways away, >> yet :-). > > but your approach is aesthetically pleasing. I like it a lot. Thanks! I'm hoping it continues to go well and will eventually work on real hardware. > But I wonder how much of the 8/I design depends on gate delays. From my > read of the schematics, > which I admit has been only cursory, there seemed to be a lot of "pulse > logic", which I worry about > in an FPGA. You should be able to simulate it, but it may be interesting > to see how that synthesizes. I'm modeling the timing chains with shift registers for the delay lines, with the shift registers driven synchronously by a master clock. The toolset seems happy with that. The 8/I design is mostly set up with TS[1234] being ended with TP[1234], so that the combinatorial logic can settle before rising TPn triggers the latches. The FPGA tools seem happy with all that. Theoretically, it would be best to extract all the "clock-and"s from the design, and put all the clock preconditions on the CE, rather than C inputs to the latches (to minimize clock skew). I haven't done that, as it would distort the relationship between the schematic and the Verilog code quite a bit. My hope is that since the original design didn't need it, that the FPGA version won't either. There is one combinatorial loop in the design. Adder_l_ (the new value for the link) depends on some stuff in the EAE, which in turn depends on adder_l_. So I'm not sure what happens to link for certain operands of the DIV instruction. Other than that, what's done so far are the detailed Eagle schematics of the 8/I backplane, some Perl to convert the netlist, pinlist, and partlist to Verilog, and the resultant Verilog, which compiles cleanly for synthesis. There are several warnings about signals that are equivalent (bmb00_ and mcbmb00_ are two copies of the same thing, for fanout). There are also a couple of warnings about x_axis and y_axis, since there are no D-A resources available internal to the FPGA to drive those (VC8I), and a warning about latch inference for pwr_low_ (latch inference is the intended result). Next up, I am looking at issues with the pin-out, but if I multiplex the front panel lights and also the switches, that should drop 90+ pins from the pin-out, The plan is to add a hand-written "top level", which hooks up the MM8I emulation (block ram, already done), and the various "external" connections from the 8/I CPU core to the actual I/O resources of the FPGA board. > I think I might have an RF08 VPI model if you want one. It's simple but > it might give you a leg up. Cool. I haven't used VPI before, but having a look couldn't hurt :-). > (I still like the idea of a big PCB with lots of TTL which functions an > 8/I. I'd buy one :-) Hmm. I might choose the 8/L for something like that. Possibly soup up the memory to 32K, but leave out all the option cruft of the 8/I backplane. Otherwise you'd be looking at a mighty big board! (I calculate about 4 feet on a side, to naively fold an 8/I backplane flat.) Then again, the ratio of the 8/I to 8/L backplane sizes is about 2.5 to 1, so the board width (for a square board) would only be about 1.6 to 1. Vince From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 20 10:11:19 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:11:19 -0700 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4CBE7A99.5020503@comcast.net> References: <4CBE75B3.4010209@brouhaha.com>,<4CBE7A99.5020503@comcast.net> Message-ID: Well, there isn't. :-) The cursor is generated by a microcode task. It does appear very early in the boot process, however. There are some good scanned documents about the Alto on Bitsavers -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen [nick.allen at comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto There must be some way to get the hardware cursor to appear even without booting to ethernet or the disk drive... I do have a disk drive, controller and disk packs, but as you mentioned it requires almost all the boards to be working, which may be very difficult if I can't gradually get things working and tested (such as the display board). I have however confirmed with an o-scope that I am getting the correct video output from the video board, so I assume that board is working properly. Now about a dozen more boards to go! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 10:14:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:14:49 -0400 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBECE6A.2050500@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Brad Parker": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:11 AM >> (I still like the idea of a big PCB with lots of TTL which functions an >> 8/I. I'd buy one :-) > > Hmm. I might choose the 8/L for something like that. Possibly soup > up the memory to 32K, but leave out all the option cruft of the 8/I > backplane. And replace the 7453 and 7482 with something made with less unobtanium? The memory extension hardware to take it over 4K is obviously non-trivial in size (especially considering it doesn't fit in an -8/L CPU enclosure). OTOH, if you have over 32K, there might as well be provisions for OS/8-compatible mass storage, otherwise it's just a papertape machine with more than 4K. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 20 10:38:02 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:38:02 -0700 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? In-Reply-To: References: <4CBECE6A.2050500@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:14 AM > On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> From: "Brad Parker": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:11 AM >>> (I still like the idea of a big PCB with lots of TTL which functions an >>> 8/I. I'd buy one :-) >> >> Hmm. I might choose the 8/L for something like that. Possibly soup >> up the memory to 32K, but leave out all the option cruft of the 8/I >> backplane. > > And replace the 7453 and 7482 with something made with less unobtanium? Sure. We've talked about how to do that before, I think. You'd face that problem starting from either the 8/I or the 8/L. > The memory extension hardware to take it over 4K is obviously > non-trivial in size (especially considering it doesn't fit in an -8/L > CPU enclosure). Good point. You would definitely need some board area for that. > OTOH, if you have over 32K, there might as well be > provisions for OS/8-compatible mass storage, otherwise it's just a > papertape machine with more than 4K. True, though an RF08 emulation doesn't take much board space. Or one could go with an RX08 interface for extra clanking ambiance :-). Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 10:49:59 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:49:59 -0400 Subject: Single-board TTL PDP-8 (was Re: pdp-8/i ECO history?) Message-ID: On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:14 AM >> On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>> Hmm. I might choose the 8/L for something like that. Possibly soup >>> up the memory to 32K, but leave out all the option cruft of the 8/I >>> backplane. >> >> And replace the 7453 and 7482 with something made with less unobtanium? > > Sure. We've talked about how to do that before, I think. You'd face that > problem starting from either the 8/I or the 8/L. Yes, but I thought it worth keeping in play. >> The memory extension hardware to take it over 4K is obviously >> non-trivial in size (especially considering it doesn't fit in an -8/L >> CPU enclosure). > > Good point. You would definitely need some board area for that. Considering how much of the -8/i backplane it takes up (about 1/2 as much as the EAE), it's a noticable chunk. >> OTOH, if you have over 32K (*have over 4K) >> there might as well be provisions for OS/8-compatible mass >> storage, otherwise it's just a papertape machine with more than 4K. > > True, though an RF08 emulation doesn't take much board space. Nope. That takes about 3"x5" in TTL (with a 16-bit Dallas RAM/battery module), IIRC. > Or one could go with an RX08 interface for extra clanking ambiance :-). While amusing and handy for some (I would use it), unless someone whips up a cable-compatible RX01/RX02 emulator (could be to floppy or removable FLASH), there are only so many original drive sets running around. Of course, one could build that RX01 emulator and include an optional Arduino-based MP3 player to emit the whirring and clanking. Frivolous but entertaining. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 20 10:53:57 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 08:53:57 -0700 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com><4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> , Message-ID: Really? >From my perspective, it is true that collections are often larger than display space - that is undeniable and unfortunate. Of course, it allows a museum to 'mix it up' and not become stale - which is another common complaint, which would be unavoidable if the museum did not have items in storage! In my experience, incoming items are first evaluated for stability. This is necessary because they often come from private collectors who do not have the resources of a museum and may have stored the items for years in a less than ideal environment, like a musty basement or a garage. (Some private collectors do better than others.) Rodent nests (and sometimes carcasses) are removed, areas of decay are cleaned carefully so they do not progress further, and then the item is catalogued and, most likely, stored. The item is stored until one of the very few members of the restoration team can attend to it. In our case, there are three of us who not only restore pieces but also deal with intake and ongoing aspects of display and operation. We also give tours and lectures. We engage in public dialogue, such as this forum. Occasionally we sleep. Just what is it you think we should be doing differently? -- Ian PS: as far as librarians go: I was on an advisory board for the UW Libraries for a few years. Anyone who doesn't think they are hardworking professionals has no clue about what a library is. Hint: it's a lot more than a bunch of books on shelves. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] >From my perspective museums are icebergs. Most of what they have can't be seen. Their idea is to put items into storage in whatever condition they arrived in and do nothing unless the item can form part of a display. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: 19 October 2010 18:54 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] From: Jos Dreesen Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:39 PM On 10/18/2010 11:18 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> But all,*all*, of them have more things in very careful storage than you >> will ever see unless you go to work for them--and until you have been >> properly trained in their handling, you'll never lay hand on any of the >> things around you. > Luckily not all museums are strict in this regard, or I would not have > been able to create my ETH Lilith emulator.... > I was enough for them to know I had a working one, and had reliably > returned documentation lend to me by the ETH, to lend to me several of > the system disks. Clearly, someone decided that you had been properly trained! ;-) Seriously, each museum makes that determination by its own criteria--but each museum makes that determination. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 20 11:16:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:16:41 -0400 Subject: Preserving computers (here we go again) In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 18, 10 05:24:18 pm Message-ID: <4CBF15E9.1080501@neurotica.com> On 10/20/10 3:29 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > There is only one non DEC system I have an interest in collecting and that?s > a NorthStar Horizion. About 1980 I did a lot of development in CBASIC under > CP/M using Wordstar as a programmers editor on one with an attached LSI > ADM3A and Diabolo 630 daisywheel printer. > > So my idea is to recreate an actual working set up in use circa 1980 > > So far I only have a motherboard. Yay, CBASIC! I did some CBASIC development a loooong time ago too. It was on an Altos MP/M system, a TS-806 I think, that was running the homegrown point-of-sale, inventory control, and tagging/labeling system for a computer store I worked at when I was 13-14 (~1984). I liked it a lot; so much that I got a copy of it for my home CP/M system. CBASIC is good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 20 12:33:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:33:30 -0600 Subject: the new manx is live Message-ID: Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. The new manx is up for beta testing here: Paul Williams created manx as a series of perl scripts and a database of online computer manuals. Paul has graciously provided us with a copy of the data from the database from which I reverse engineered a compatible implementation in PHP. Later, Paul provided me with the perl scripts which I used as a referene for finishing off the PHP implementation. The new manx is an open source project hosted at . Please use the issue tracker on codeplex to report any problems you find with this new manx. You can also browse the existing issues in the tracker to see the planned enhancements. The main planned enhancement to come is supporting users and roles to allow community contributions to the database so that new additions don't have to go through a single person. Thanks to Paul Williams for providing the database dumps and scripts and Jay West for hosting the finished application. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 20 13:11:11 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:11:11 -0700 Subject: Single-board TTL PDP-8 (was Re: pdp-8/i ECO history?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:49 AM >>> The memory extension hardware to take it over 4K is obviously >>> non-trivial in size (especially considering it doesn't fit in an -8/L >>> CPU enclosure). >> Good point. You would definitely need some board area for that. > > Considering how much of the -8/i backplane it takes up (about 1/2 as > much as the EAE), it's a noticable chunk. I did once design an extended memory controller (with time-share) that was only a few inches on a side. But that was for the 6100, and it also used a GAL or two, IIRC. Proper homage to the historical 8/I design would definitely be larger. >> Or one could go with an RX08 interface for extra clanking ambiance :-). > > While amusing and handy for some (I would use it), unless someone > whips up a cable-compatible RX01/RX02 emulator (could be to floppy or > removable FLASH), there are only so many original drive sets running > around. Of course, one could build that RX01 emulator and include an > optional Arduino-based MP3 player to emit the whirring and clanking. > Frivolous but entertaining. :-). There are still plenty of RX01 and RX02 drives around, though they are big, and are starting to get more expensive. (There's also the concern that most of them are coming at the expense of PDP-11 systems.) Vince From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 20 13:42:36 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:42:36 -0700 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com><4CBD20CB.8060207@bluewin.ch> , Message-ID: From: Ian King Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:54 AM > Rodent nests (and sometimes carcasses) are removed, areas of decay are > cleaned carefully so they do not progress further, and then the item is > catalogued and, most likely, stored. Generally, we do try to catalog the item before any restoration takes place. (Noted for the professionals among the readership. :-) > The item is stored until one of the very few members of the restoration > team can attend to it. In our case, there are three of us who not only > restore pieces but also deal with intake and ongoing aspects of display > and operation. We also give tours and lectures. We engage in public > dialogue, such as this forum. Occasionally we sleep. > Just what is it you think we should be doing differently? -- Ian What he said. And as it happens, we are willing to show interested visitors our stored items as well as our displays. (Stated for the iceberg crowd.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 20 13:44:24 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:44:24 +0100 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com> Great work! This is such a useful resource. One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on vt100.net, have these documents also been moved? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 20 October 2010 18:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: the new manx is live > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > Paul Williams created manx as a series of perl scripts and a database of online > computer manuals. Paul has graciously provided us with a copy of the data > from the database from which I reverse engineered a compatible > implementation in PHP. Later, Paul provided me with the perl scripts which I > used as a referene for finishing off the PHP implementation. > > The new manx is an open source project hosted at > . > > Please use the issue tracker on codeplex to report any problems you find > with this new manx. You can also browse the existing issues in the tracker to > see the planned enhancements. The main planned enhancement to come is > supporting users and roles to allow community contributions to the database > so that new additions don't have to go through a single person. > > Thanks to Paul Williams for providing the database dumps and scripts and Jay > West for hosting the finished application. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 20 14:12:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:12:32 -0600 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:44:24 +0100. <010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article <010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" writes: > One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on vt100.net, have > these documents also been moved? No, but Paul Williams who runs vt100.net is on the manx developer list, so I've asked him about that. Currently you get a message dated February 2010 that says the stuff will be back "in a few days". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 20 14:13:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:13:58 -0600 Subject: Nonsense about museums and libraries [was RE: Xerox Alto onebay (not mine!)] In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:42:36 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > Generally, we do try to catalog the item before any restoration takes > place. (Noted for the professionals among the readership. :-) I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a n00b in this respect. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 14:52:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:52:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <4CBE00EC.8020808@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 19, 10 01:34:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/19/10 12:24 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: Actually quoting me. > > Oh well, another > >> machine I will never get to investigate :-( > > > > You can always use the simulator. Can I? How? I can think of 2 major problems 1) For me, invenstigating a machine involves taking it to bits, seeing what all the parts do, putitng some of it back together, probing around with a 'scope and logic analyser, and so on. I doubt the simualtor can do that. 2) What would I run it on? The most logical machine for me to use would be the PERQ, on the groundis it does at least have a bitmapped monochrome display. But I doubt the emualtor runs on that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 14:56:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:56:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Funky keyboards (was: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 19, 10 03:02:40 pm Message-ID: > When people are geeky enough to be interested in my collection of > serial terminals, this is one of the things I point out. I give them > a tour of the different keyboards. Most people don't realize that I have an old (obviously) video terminal here which, while it can display lower case, the origianl keyboard circuit could only send upper case. Alas (for historical interest), I made one of the modifications shown in the manual (a couple of TTL chips wired togther and soldered to points on the keybaord PCB) which enables it ot send lower case too. > there was a time when lower case was a luxury :-). I show them > Tektronix 4010 keyboards where punctuation characters are available on > the shifted alphabetic keys. You want to find one of the old 3-row keyboards on a 5-bit terminal, like my Creed 7E. On those, the digits are the figs shift of the top row of alphabetical keys (so Q->1, W->2, etc0. And Punctuation marks are scattered on the the other letters. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 14:41:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:41:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Oct 19, 10 12:21:25 pm Message-ID: > > If you mean very special and specific keys, I guess they rather limit the > > sort of software you can run, or at least which will make sensible use of > > the keyboard. > > I actually did mean that. He's only 14, so he's used to the keyboards > most in use these days, with F1-F12, Insert, Delete, etc. I think he > was fascinated by the differences in the QX-10 keyboard. He had never > seen anything like it. At the time of the QX10, keyboards with specific keys were relatively common, I think. I am thinking of the HP9836 keyboard with keys for 'Insert Line'. 'Delete Line', 'Insert Chearcter', 'Delete Character', 'Continue', etc. Incidentally, a 'working defintion' for distiguishing between calculators and computers is that he former are 'key per functiuon' machines. A machine with a button for 'SIN' is a calculator. One where you have to spell it out in 3 keystrokes is a computer. There are many machinews where you do either, but it's still a useful rule... Your next task is to explain to your son whgat is so odd about the floppy disk drives in the QX10. No, not that they're 5.25" (which I guess _is_ odd these days). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 14:42:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:42:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <4CBDF074.5040205@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Oct 19, 10 09:24:36 pm Message-ID: > > Inwhich case, my jaw has just hit the floor. How much??? Oh well, another > > machine I will never get to investigate :-( > > > Well, you could always sell a few machines that no longer interest you ! YEs, but selling a few PC clones and C64s is not going to raise $30K :-). Even if I sold my entire collection I doubt I'd raise that amount, actually. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:16:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:16:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Oct 20, 10 02:43:53 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, Wello, and welcome ot the list. > My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I > created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm WHen I first saw the pictutre of that on your web page, I thought 'That looks like what I calleda 'video genie'. Then I read the description.... ;-) > > However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started > collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P > someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it on > and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now I hate to start another one of my rants, but I hope you've learnt now that turnoing on a classic machine is not the first thing to try. I would strongly recoemdn a careful visual inspection and then testing the PSU on adummy load. It doesn't take long (at least not for most machines [1]), and it may save you having to powst a message hear askign for a dump of the ROMs for some rare machine [1] OK, in a couple of cases I have made up special PSU test boxes which takes a little longer... > had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking back > after that! I think many of us have had that experince. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm I was interested to read your comments on the Sinclair QL. You basically have the same views as me. I feel that the machine was simply too ckeap, too much was cut out. IIRC, it sold for about \pounds 400 in the UK. If it has sold for \pounds 600, but had had a useable keyboard, a disk drive (even a 3" one), proper serial ports [1], and the like, then the machine might actually have been popular. As it was, it was pretty much unusable. [1] The QL has 2 seral port conenctors. But the data input lines are simple ORed together (!). The peripheral _has_ to look at the handshake lines, or data will either get corrupted by being mixed with data from the other peripheral, or it'll be sent to the wrongplace by the OS. Alas, many peripherals don't do that (and why should they, it violates the RS232 standard). But anyway... > I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated with > the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew > nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, > flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under the > hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting I > found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in order > to keep these machines up and running! See Err, yes... There are very few people prepared to fis a classic machine for you, and those that will tend to charge ;-). Fortunately, I came to computing from electronics (not that I have any qulaifications in either...), and have a fair idea of what goes on inside these machines. And contrary to certain comments here, I do try to share my knowledge. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the > vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with > sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge > regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. Many of us have shelf upon shelf of old servie manuals, data books, electroncis books, etc and are quite happy to look things up. > (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as > satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a Now that I certainly agree with. I rememebr tinkering with my PDP11/45 for over a month before I finally understood all the manuals, had it all put toghet and I turned the key (literally). I then toggled in my first program. OK, it didn't work, but it appeared the machine was basically working. Some time later I found I'd mis-understood one of the machine instructions, I fixed that and my program ran... > fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and > plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to obsessive > lengths to make them so. I agree with that too. Computers intended to 'compute'. I've spent (and will spend in the future) many enjyable hours tracking down faults, finding spare parts, making spare parts, and generally getting these fine old machines to work again. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 20 15:54:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:54:04 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:42:36 -0700. Message-ID: From: Richard Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:14 PM In article , Rich Alderson writes: >> Generally, we do try to catalog the item before any restoration takes >> place. (Noted for the professionals among the readership. :-) > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > n00b in this respect. Just what it sounds like. :-) When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item and piece numbers. (The accession number should be written on the piece, leaving out the leading zeroes, whether on a tag or on an inconspicuous portion of the object itself . The latter is done using a water-soluble clear- drying compound to provide a marking surface--never write on the bare material of the object.) The accession number is recorded into a database such as Gallery Systems' The Museum System, along with provenance, condition, and any other relevant information that you wish to keep for each object. (We use Polaris, a library cataloguing system, because that was already in place when we began turning the private collection into a museum.) TMS is available to private collectors as well as to museums; I don't know the pricing, and it doesn't show up on their web site. There is a reference work on museum cataloguing published by the American Association of Museums, Buck & Gilmore's _The New Museum Registration Methods_, now in a brand new edition if I remember correctly. Museum folks are very helpful. Talk to the collections managers at a few museums local to you, to see what paperwork they use for incoming donations, and how they assign accession numbers, and what software they use for cataloguing. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 20 15:54:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101020135328.P47509@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > 2) What would I run it on? The most logical machine for me to use would > be the PERQ, on the groundis it does at least have a bitmapped monochrome > display. But I doubt the emualtor runs on that. Just write a PC/Windoze emulator to run on the Perq, and then run the emulator under that! :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 16:15:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:15:29 -0400 Subject: Would a bog-standard 4164 be a suitable replacement for a MCM4517 in a Sega SC3000H? (was Re: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza)) Message-ID: On 10/19/10, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Hi Terry, > > Welcome to the list, from another NZ classic-cmper. Whereabouts in NZ are > you located? Hi, Terry, I'm curious, too. I've spent about six months of the past 15 years in NZ, mostly in Christchurch, with trips to Wellington, Auckland, and Hamilton. > I also enjoy getting dead machines going; my current challenge is finding > RAM for a Sega SC3000H. I was hoping someone might have some spare MCM4517s > for sale (from memory, hopefully that number's right), Those are just +5V-only 16Kx1 DRAMs, right? The pinout is the same as the 4164 except for pin 9 (NC on a MCM4517, A7 on a 4164). Could you use a 4164 instead? (it might require a pull-up or pull-down on pin 9 so it doesn't float). Those are rather abundant and still available from a number of sources. -ethan From mike at fenz.net Wed Oct 20 16:26:43 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:26:43 +1300 Subject: Would a bog-standard 4164 be a suitable replacement for a MCM4517 in a Sega =?UTF-8?Q?SC=33=30=30=30H=3F=20=28was=20Re=3A=20Introduction=20-=20T?= =?UTF-8?Q?erry=20Stewart=20=28tezza=29=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <079a0b1eebce8c8091dec0ed6df16e54@vodafone.co.nz> On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:15:29 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I also enjoy getting dead machines going; my current challenge is finding >> RAM for a Sega SC3000H. I was hoping someone might have some spare >> MCM4517s for sale (from memory, hopefully that number's right), > Those are just +5V-only 16Kx1 DRAMs, right? The pinout is the same as > the 4164 except for pin 9 (NC on a MCM4517, A7 on a 4164). > Could you use a 4164 instead? (it might require a pull-up or > pull-down on pin 9 so it doesn't float). Those are rather abundant > and still available from a number of sources. Interesting thought... I probably have some 4164s around somewhere as well. Having said that, last night I bought a couple of MCM4517s from a Chinese seller on eBay. Their feedback seems pretty good, but I am wondering if I'll receive dead parts, or maybe even compeltely different parts with fake labelling. I'll be optimistic for the moment I guess! If it doesn't work, I might see if I can find a known-good 4164 around my place, and give it a try. Thanks for the heads-up on that one. Mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 20 16:34:55 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:34:55 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) References: Message-ID: Thanks for that welcome Tony, Yes, I always thoroughly inspect machines now before an attempted boot up, having removed rodents, cockroaches, spiders, re-plugged detached internal connectors and even discovered half the innards are missing on occasions. I don't normally test the power supply separately though. It sounds like a good idea. What kind of load/resistance would you suggest in such a testing circuit? Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) >> >> Hi, > > Wello, and welcome ot the list. > >> My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I >> created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm > > WHen I first saw the pictutre of that on your web page, I thought 'That > looks like what I calleda 'video genie'. Then I read the description.... > ;-) > >> >> However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started >> collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P >> someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it >> on >> and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now > > I hate to start another one of my rants, but I hope you've learnt now > that turnoing on a classic machine is not the first thing to try. I > would strongly recoemdn a careful visual inspection and then testing the > PSU on adummy load. It doesn't take long (at least not for most machines > [1]), and it may save you having to powst a message hear askign for a > dump of the ROMs for some rare machine > > [1] OK, in a couple of cases I have made up special PSU test boxes which > takes a little longer... > > >> had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking >> back >> after that! > > I think many of us have had that experince. > >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm > > I was interested to read your comments on the Sinclair QL. You basically > have the same views as me. I feel that the machine was simply too ckeap, > too much was cut out. IIRC, it sold for about \pounds 400 in the UK. If > it has sold for \pounds 600, but had had a useable keyboard, a disk drive > (even a 3" one), proper serial ports [1], and the like, then the machine > might actually have been popular. As it was, it was pretty much unusable. > > [1] The QL has 2 seral port conenctors. But the data input lines are > simple ORed together (!). The peripheral _has_ to look at the handshake > lines, or data will either get corrupted by being mixed with data from > the other peripheral, or it'll be sent to the wrongplace by the OS. Alas, > many peripherals don't do that (and why should they, it violates the > RS232 standard). But anyway... > >> I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated >> with >> the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew >> nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, >> flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under >> the >> hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting >> I >> found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in >> order >> to keep these machines up and running! See > > Err, yes... There are very few people prepared to fis a classic machine > for you, and those that will tend to charge ;-). > > Fortunately, I came to computing from electronics (not that I have any > qulaifications in either...), and have a fair idea of what goes on inside > these machines. And contrary to certain comments here, I do try to share > my knowledge. > >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the >> vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with >> sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge >> regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. > > Many of us have shelf upon shelf of old servie manuals, data books, > electroncis books, etc and are quite happy to look things up. > >> (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as >> satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a > > Now that I certainly agree with. I rememebr tinkering with my PDP11/45 > for over a month before I finally understood all the manuals, had it all > put toghet and I turned the key (literally). I then toggled in my first > program. OK, it didn't work, but it appeared the machine was basically > working. Some time later I found I'd mis-understood one of the machine > instructions, I fixed that and my program ran... > >> fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and >> plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to >> obsessive >> lengths to make them so. > > I agree with that too. Computers intended to 'compute'. I've spent (and > will spend in the future) many enjyable hours tracking down faults, > finding spare parts, making spare parts, and generally getting these fine > old machines to work again. > > -tony > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 20 16:43:57 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:43:57 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org><811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Hi Mike, Thanks for the welcome. I'm in Palmerston North. I once came across a New Zealand website supporting the SC3000H, probably yours, yes? Have you subscribed to the forums at http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/forums/index.php ? It gets a little bit of activity these days and is a great way to network with others interested in this old iron who live within affordable shipping distances! (-: Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike van Bokhoven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:26 PM Subject: Re: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) > Hi Terry, > > Welcome to the list, from another NZ classic-cmper. Whereabouts in NZ are > you located? > > I also enjoy getting dead machines going; my current challenge is finding > RAM for a Sega SC3000H. I was hoping someone might have some spare > MCM4517s > for sale (from memory, hopefully that number's right), not much luck in > tracking them down at a decent cost yet. I'm not that great at > troubleshooting dead machines, but I like the challenge. > > Mike > > > > On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:43:53 +1300, "Terry Stewart" > > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on >> this >> list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer >> Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around > >> the Net. >> >> My interest in microcomputing history started about 11 years ago, when I >> created a website to archive some facts about my first micro. >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/index.htm >> >> However, in 2007 with the kids off my hands (and more room) I started >> collecting other micros. This was trigged by finding a OS Challenger 1P >> someone gave me in the late 1980s in the bottom of a wardrobe, turning it >> on >> and finding (astonishingly!) it went! Along with my old System 80, I now > >> had the nucleus of a classic computer collection! There was no looking >> back >> after that! >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/index.htm >> >> I am not a computer engineer, electronics technician or even associated >> with >> the computer industry in any way. Before I started collecting I knew >> nothing about electronics except you plugged something in at the wall, >> flicked a switch and (if you are lucky) it went. I had never been under >> the >> hood of a computer even my System 80. However, once I started collecting > I >> >> found I HAD to learn something about the mystery of binary hardware in >> order >> to keep these machines up and running! See >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/index.htm . I've found the >> vintage/classic computer community to be very supportive and helpful with > >> sharing knowledge in this regard. I've still got huge gaps in knowledge >> regarding the hardware side but it's improving all the time. >> >> My main motivation for collecting these old machines is to preserve a > slice >> >> of history (particularly in the New Zealand context), and perhaps even >> display (and give talks about) the units when I retire years down the >> track. >> I like to have every machine working, with original manuals and decked > out >> with software of the day. Let's face it, it's also great to have all > those >> >> machines you used to covert back then! Now that I know more about it, > I've >> >> (unexpectedly) come to enjoy the hardware side as well! Nothing is as >> satisfying as seeing a dead computer suddenly surge back to life after a >> fix. To me, a dead computer is just a collection of wires, silicon and >> plastic. They HAVE to be working, and my wife would claim I go to >> obsessive >> lengths to make them so. >> >> Anyway, that's all about me. I'm working full-time, have a number of > other >> >> interests and may not get a chance to contribute too often. However, I >> hope >> to share classic computing thoughts/issues where I'm able. >> >> Terry Stewart (Tez) >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz > From mike at fenz.net Wed Oct 20 17:30:19 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:30:19 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org><811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <6ce00f2cdc76f30be9b61cc3fe63b46e@vodafone.co.nz> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:43:57 +1300, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Thanks for the welcome. I'm in Palmerston North. I once came across a New > Zealand website supporting the SC3000H, probably yours, yes? Nope, the site's not mine - I'm completely unfamiliar with the Sega line of home computers, though I am pretty familiar with the game console lines. I used to have a fairly comprehensive collection of Sega games and consoles, all gone now. Well, I still have a Genesis CDX and a Genesis Nomad and games for them, but even those have to go. The SC3000 is practically identical to the SC1000 game console, but that doesn't help me much; it was one system I never owned. One main reason I'm wanting to get the 3000 sorted out is that it's in such fantastic condition otherwise; has its original box, is pretty much flawless cosmetically, has lots of accessories. I don't want to sell it not working because it's likely it won't be of much value to anyone that way, so may not be cared for well. If I fix it, I think it's likely to be treated a lot better. I'm really quite keen on helping preserve this stuff for the future, even if I no longer feel I can do that by providing much storage space for it! > Have you subscribed to the forums at > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/forums/index.php ? It gets a little > bit of activity these days and is a great way to network with others interested > in this old iron who live within affordable shipping distances! (-: No, I haven't - I really should. I often find the politics/bitchiness that goes on in forums to be a bit off-putting though. For some reason, I don't find it bothers me nearly as much on mailing lists. I should join anyway, even if I only lurk! Mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 20 17:55:39 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:55:39 +1300 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org><811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> <6ce00f2cdc76f30be9b61cc3fe63b46e@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <3198D8C98DCA4B84B56CE1B071468C62@massey.ac.nz> > No, I haven't - I really should. I often find the politics/bitchiness that > goes on in forums to be a bit off-putting though. For some reason, I don't > find it bothers me nearly as much on mailing lists. Probably because the delete button has an immediate (and very satisfying) effect (-: There is no bitchiness on the NZ Forums so far Mike. I know what you mean though. Probably because there is just a small group of active users so far. Terry (Tez) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 19:48:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:48:40 -0700 Subject: Would a bog-standard 4164 be a suitable replacement for a MCM4517 in a Sega SC3000H? (was Re: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBF8DE8.9080708@brouhaha.com> On 10/20/2010 02:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Could you use a 4164 instead? (it might require a pull-up or > pull-down on pin 9 so it doesn't float). I'd just hardwire pin 9 to either +5V or ground. Probably easiest to tie it to +5V on pin 8. 16K DRAMs all required 128 row refresh in 2 ms. 64K DRAMs came in two kinds. Some required 256 row refresh in 4 ms, while others (specifically intended for compatibility with 16K DRAMs) required only 128 row refresh in 2 ms. The latter kind will work with a 7-bit refresh counter (e.g., 3242, or the counter built into the Z-80), while the former will not. However, in this case, you're only going to use 128 rows (and only half of each row), so either kind of 64K DRAM should be suitable. Eric From shumaker at att.net Wed Oct 20 21:22:24 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:22:24 -0700 Subject: ProFiles issues to be scanned... In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBFA3E0.7010700@att.net> If you'd like to scan a few more issues, let me know. I'll package up some that you don't have and mail them to you. steve On 10/19/2010 6:07 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > This is what I have left to scan: > > All but the August issue for 1986. > > Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul/Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec - 1985 > > Dec/Jan - 1985 > > Nov - 1984 > > Feb, Mar, Dec/Jan 1987 > > g. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 21:41:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 22:41:31 -0400 Subject: Sequent Tape Drive Message-ID: I have a small Sequent SCSI cabinet with a 8mm tape drive in it - untested. Any Sequent fans need this before I send it to the grinder? It is a typical single full high SCSI box with power supply. Cheap! -- Will, in 10512 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 22:27:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 23:27:28 -0400 Subject: HTL Message-ID: Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? -- Will From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Oct 20 22:45:47 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 22:45:47 -0500 Subject: mTCP 2010-10-20 Version (DOS TCP/IP apps) Message-ID: <4CBFB76B.4050801@brutman.com> I haven't flogged this here in a long time, so my apologies in advance: A new version of mTCP is available at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . mTCP is a collection of TCP/IP applications with the TCP/IP code built into each application. The applications include a DHCP client, FTP client, IRC client, Telnet client, SNTP (Simple NTP) client, Telnet, Ping and Netcat. Static networking setup is available if you are not inclined to use DHCP. Requirements are a PC, clone, PCjr or whatever you have, somewhere around 192KB of free memory, and a network device with a packet driver. I use 'device' loosely here - this includes SLIP, PPP, Ethernet cards, and Ethernet adapters hanging off of parallel ports. The code runs well in DOSBox and virtual machines if you are so inclined. Features of the stack include: - ARP, TCP and UDP - Automatic detection and retransmission of lost packets - Support for multiple open sockets - Listen/accept support for server style applications - DNS resolving - Zero window support - IP fragment reassembly The goal is to make this open source some day. Until then, you just have to enjoy the compiled binaries. I started out with Turbo C++ 3.0 about five years ago, and recently switched to Open Watcom. IP fragment support is the newest addition to the code. Enjoy, Mike From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 20 22:58:42 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:58:42 -0600 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I would expect them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think HTL can run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on them for about 25 years. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 20 23:39:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:39:24 -0700 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CBF618C.24854.1ACEF4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2010 at 21:58, ben wrote: > if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I would expect > them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think > HTL can run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on > them for about 25 years. Ben. Looking at the schematics and datasheets for HTL, I don't see how their ESD tolerance would be greatly different from DTL and probably any other bipolar logic family. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 21 00:44:15 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 22:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sequent Tape Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a small Sequent SCSI cabinet with a 8mm tape drive in it - > untested. Any Sequent fans need this before I send it to the grinder? > It is a typical single full high SCSI box with power supply. A SCSI box such as that would make a fine chassis for a P112. If you were one of those who put a preorder with me, remember that I'll have a very limited number of kits and this cabinet may be of interest. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Oct 20 12:17:07 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:17:07 -0500 Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBF2413.4020607@comcast.net> Thanks everyone, I guess I have no choice but to attempt to not only get all the cards in the alto to work, but also get the disk drive and disk pack working properly... Lets hope just a couple components are bad, that are easily diagnosable... From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 12:18:26 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:18:26 -0400 Subject: More on Alto repair Message-ID: Once, after doing something stupid (I'm not sayin'), I had a killed Alto on my hands. To find the bug, I put a Biomation logic analyzer on the backplane microcode address bits. Using a listing of the microcode I was able to figure out which task was running when and that pointed out the loop in the microcode. I was then able to work backward from the task logic to figure the bug. This is made possible because the Alto backplane was wirewrapped, which meant that the signals are available for easy probing (and logic analyzer pins). Once upon a time I used to say "What I wouldn't give to have an Alto again". Now, I know it's not $30,100. From fryers at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 01:50:33 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:50:33 +1100 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: G'Day, On 20/10/2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160495302854 > > Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. > Has anyone ever seen this? Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the toilet. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 06:25:58 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 07:25:58 -0400 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: <4CBF618C.24854.1ACEF4F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBF618C.24854.1ACEF4F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Oct 2010 at 21:58, ben wrote: > > > if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I would expect > > them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think > > HTL can run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on > > them for about 25 years. Ben. > > Looking at the schematics and datasheets for HTL, I don't see how > their ESD tolerance would be greatly different from DTL and probably > any other bipolar logic family. > > > while this is true, with just handling these devices between parts bin, it's still relative, once these are embedded in equipment and installed in a facility, however remote, deep in a navy submarine or atop a mountain observatory. You still needed to follow static precautions as far back when digital logic was first used because the level of static discharge can potentially increase when in presence of the various building materials in and around the computer equipment. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Oct 21 08:25:10 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 08:25:10 -0500 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> References: <4CBE3F9F.4040109@bitsavers.org> <811ABD9C32AC4066BA1DB57A46125DA3@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4CC03F36.8040409@brutman.com> Hi Tez! Another familiar face on the list ... Mike From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Oct 21 08:29:10 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:29:10 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: William Donzelli > >> I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. > > Interesting you mention hulls of old ships and oldest operating > computers. It is likely that any list of "oldest operating computers" > would probably be dominated by special purpose digital* computers > (fire control, navigation, crypto, etc.) on ex-US and Soviet warships > serving in third world navies. Even in the backwaters of the US Navy > there are still some ancient machines still going. I have a mental picture of a mercury delay being rocked back and forth by the motion of a battleship :-) Certainly mechanical analogue computers were common in fire control, and must have got replaced by something more modern, but I would restrict the list to stored program machines. Nickel delay lines were likely used and drums used directly for executing code would of course work on a ship too. Williams tubes maybe, and the earliest core memory machine would have been military too. > Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that > historians tend to dismiss. Maybe because they are excluded by secrecy, as happened with the UK's WW2 German code breaking machines until the story got out and Bletchley Park was saved. In my first job I came across several military computers, but they were for use in aircraft and so much less heavy. I worked on the Mk2 Nimrod, based on the Comet, and I've heard tell that in its first incarnation it was bright aluminium because if they painted it the weight of the paint would have stopped it from becoming airborne. > * The submarines of Taiwan still use the Mk IV Torpedo Data Computers > (mechanical analog), installed when the boats were still US during > World War 2. Interesting, but not a stored program computer. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 21 08:47:04 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 06:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles issues to be scanned... In-Reply-To: <4CBFA3E0.7010700@att.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBFA3E0.7010700@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > If you'd like to scan a few more issues, let me know. I'll package up some > that you don't have and mail them to you. > That would be fine Steve. I'll email you my address. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Oct 21 09:17:36 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:17:36 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC04B80.3060407@brutman.com> Charles wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find a BP-8 battery pack for my TI > Programmer (calculator) that I've owned since the early 80's? It > has a small dc-dc converter and two AA nicads inside, supplying 9 > volts to the snap-on connector. The board is corroded beyond > salvaging by badly leaked nicads :( > > It will run on a 9 volt battery too (max drain with all digits on > is 44 ma according to this interesting German site): > http://www.christophlorenz.de/calc/ti/programmer.php?l=en > and I suppose I could just put one inside the plastic housing of > the BP-8 which of course would not be rechargeable. > > I also need a pack for my otherwise clean SR-51A, a BP-1A. This > would be trivial to repair except that it's completely missing and > I have no idea where it went! > > thanks > Charles > > I just looked at my TI Programmer - how on earth do you even get into the BP-8? The flex tabs that hold it together won't budge, and I'm not interested in breaking them. If I could get into it, I'd like to rebuild the battery pack. Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 09:18:23 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:18:23 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Certainly mechanical analogue computers were common in fire control, and must have got replaced by something more modern, Sometime by 1960 the digital machines started getting into fire control. Of course, the analog stuff never breaks, so they tend to hang around on the older ships as well. I had the chance to get a couple of US Navy Mk 50somethings about ten years back, but passed when I found all the cards had been stripped out. > but I would restrict the list to stored program machines. Nickel delay lines were likely used and drums used directly for executing code would of course work on a ship too. Williams tubes maybe, and the earliest core memory machine would have been military too. Cores and drums. Old military core is pretty common, and every so often you can find neat little drum units. > Maybe because they are excluded by secrecy, as happened with the UK's ?WW2 German code breaking machines until the story got out and Bletchley Park was saved. Yes, very much so. The US codebreaking technology in WW2 is still pretty classified. The Soviet stuff is the great unknown, and the German stuff is basically lost. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 21 11:14:31 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:14:31 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- [snip] > I have a mental picture of a mercury delay being rocked back and forth > by the motion of a battleship :-) > > Certainly mechanical analogue computers were common in fire control, > and must have got replaced by something more modern, but I would > restrict the list to stored program machines. Nickel delay lines were > likely used and drums used directly for executing code would of course > work on a ship too. Williams tubes maybe, and the earliest core memory > machine would have been military too. > In the late 1970s, a friend joined the US Navy and served on aircraft. He told me the navigation computer for their plane used a magnetic drum memory. I'm a little surprised it wasn't magnetic core by that point, except that (as pointed out elsewhere on this thread) military equipment doesn't necessarily follow the 'bleeding edge' of commercial or (especially) consumer systems. Another person I know was maintaining *SR33/35 teletypes for military communication only twenty or so years ago. ISTR the Whirlwind was the first computer to use magnetic core memory, and that was a joint project between MIT and the military. -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 21 11:19:53 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:19:53 -0700 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CBFBA72.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CC06829.2060401@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I would expect > them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. ESD is in the tens of thousands of volts. Whether an IC is subject to ESD damage has nothing to do with the normal operating ratings of the part. True TTL 74-series parts are nearly immune to ESD whereas CD4000-series CMOS parts are very ESD-sensitive, due to the details of the structure of the parts, even though though the CD4000-series parts are rated for three times the operating voltage of the TTL parts. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 21 11:32:20 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:32:20 -0700 Subject: SparcStation Voyager framebuffer problem Message-ID: I posted not too long ago looking for a framebuffer driver that seemed to be missing from the Solaris distributions I have for my Voyager. Well, I finally opened up the machine and found something quite unexpected. I had assumed (as had others, according to statements) that the color and monochrome components (screen and framebuffer) would be physically incompatible, so it would be impossible to mix and match. *Wrong!* In fact, I found I have a color framebuffer, which was talking to the monochrome screen. What's really strange is that OpenBoot seems to have created a new name - bwthree - to describe the framebuffer! I don't suppose anyone has a monochrome framebuffer with which you might be willing to part company? Or perhaps a color screen? -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 11:49:21 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:49:21 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > In the late 1970s, a friend joined the US Navy and served on aircraft. ?He told me the navigation computer for their plane used a magnetic drum memory. ?I'm a little surprised it wasn't magnetic core by that point, except that (as pointed out elsewhere on this thread) military equipment doesn't necessarily follow the 'bleeding edge' of commercial or (especially) consumer systems. It is not that the military is behind, but rather that they (especially the Navy) tends to keep things in service for a long time. 20 to 30 year lifespans for electronic equipment are not rare. Successful designs can remain current for just as long. The old adage of "if it aint broke" certainly applies. One of my Rolm (actually Loral, after the buyout) machines has core memory, and it was built in the 1990s. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 11:59:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:59:57 -0700 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: References: , <4CBF618C.24854.1ACEF4F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CC00F1D.8328.140444@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2010 at 7:25, Dan Roganti wrote: > while this is true, with just handling these devices between parts > bin, it's still relative, once these are embedded in equipment and > installed in a facility, however remote, deep in a navy submarine or > atop a mountain observatory. You still needed to follow static > precautions as far back when digital logic was first used because the > level of static discharge can potentially increase when in presence of > the various building materials in and around the computer equipment. I don't follow what you're saying. I said that HTL should, as far as I can determine, have similar ESD tolerance as other bipolar logic. I did NOT say that you can crank up the steam heat on a subzero winter day, rub your rubber-soled shoes over the wool carpet and zap away. Or play fast and loose with the hipot tester. You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out, that you'd use with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. No special precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL. Old MOS parts are in a different category, usually requiring different handling. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 12:03:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:03:22 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CC00FEA.30212.1724BE@cclist.sydex.com> I've been thinking about what I wouldn't turn away. I'd certainly like to have some of the more obscure development systems for unusual microprocessors, particularly if they included software. For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) or whatever it was that National used for the PACE or IMP-16. Or that used for a Rockwell PPS-8, etc. Those would be small, rare and interesting enough to collect. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:12:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:12:27 -0400 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: <4CC00F1D.8328.140444@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CBF618C.24854.1ACEF4F@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC00F1D.8328.140444@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out, that you'd use > with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. ?No special > precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL. Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat static sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a low-runner, go through this process? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 12:32:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:32:59 -0700 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: References: , <4CC00F1D.8328.140444@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CC016DB.16130.3245CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2010 at 13:12, William Donzelli wrote: > Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat static > sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to > its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over > time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a > low-runner, go through this process? I can find no mention one way or the other in my HTL literature. Given that it's roughly contemporaneous with DTL with similar internals, I'd expect that ESD handling would be similar. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:34:55 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (ragooman at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HTL Message-ID: <4cc079bf.241b8f0a.77ca.72f7@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:13:29 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" From: "William Donzelli" Subject: Re: HTL > You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out, that you'd use > with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. ?No special > precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL. Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat static sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a low-runner, go through this process? There's different levels of ESD protection for handling components. Whether your just storing parts for a hobby, development lab or a full production facility. A simple static wrist strap can avoid any confusion in many situations and should be in your pocket whenever handling components, boards, etc. And if your in the sticks somewhere, without a proper grounding station, you should at least be prepared with a static bag stuffed in your toolbox to cover the cards when handling a rack full of cards. Never touch with bare hands as taught in ESD class. You know the old adage being, don't leave home without it :) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 12:54:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:54:17 -0700 Subject: 1986 NSA paper on computers Message-ID: <4CC01BD9.1052.45C534@cclist.sydex.com> Something that's fun reading, in spite of the redactions is the 1986 National Security report on "General and Special-Purpose Computers: a Historical Look and Some Lessons Learned": http://tinyurl.com/2dt5egq (PDF) --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 21 13:03:54 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CC00FEA.30212.1724BE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC00FEA.30212.1724BE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108@bitsavers.org> On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have all of the software for it. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 21 13:07:06 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:07:06 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:17:36 -0500 From: "Michael B. Brutman" Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? I just looked at my TI Programmer - how on earth do you even get into the BP-8? The flex tabs that hold it together won't budge, and I'm not interested in breaking them. If I could get into it, I'd like to rebuild the battery pack. Mike ---------------- Not to start one of our flamefests over here, but it should be pretty straightforward; gently pry out the short 3 finger side with something wide enough to catch the whole width, and it will just tilt open. I've replaced mine several times, as well as another TI calc using the same pack; hope your batteries aren't too corroded. I _might_ even have an inverter module for the OP; still looking. mike From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 21 13:09:01 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:09:01 -0400 Subject: 1986 NSA paper on computers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:54:17 PDT.) <4CC01BD9.1052.45C534@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC01BD9.1052.45C534@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101021180901.7B0F1A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Something that's fun reading, in spite of the redactions is the 1986 > National Security report on "General and Special-Purpose Computers: a > Historical Look and Some Lessons Learned": > http://tinyurl.com/2dt5egq (PDF) A similar study from 1964 circulated a couple of months ago, in case anyone missed it. Might be interesting to compare. http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf De From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 21 13:09:49 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:09:49 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? References: Message-ID: <171AD5F2B0F34E7DAF4BCA074964DE29@vl420mt> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:17:36 -0500 From: "Michael B. Brutman" Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? I just looked at my TI Programmer - how on earth do you even get into the BP-8? The flex tabs that hold it together won't budge, and I'm not interested in breaking them. If I could get into it, I'd like to rebuild the battery pack. Mike ---------------- Not to start one of our flamefests over here, but it should be pretty straightforward; gently pry out the short 3 finger side with something wide enough to catch the whole width, and it will just tilt open. Hope your batteries aren't too corroded. I've replaced mine several times, as well as another TI calc using a similar pack. I _might_ even have an inverter module for the OP; still looking. mike From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 13:12:03 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:12:03 +0100 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize Message-ID: Hi, I am moving to a smaller place and need to off-load some bits I am not going to have space for. An Octane (works but case in a bad shape) dual processor sse graphics it had 1gb of memory but some was bad, I think it's 768mb A Sun Blade 2000 Dual processors with 1gb memory and 18gb drive. 2 rack mount sparc machines with 2xmachines in each unit (Non sun) I think they are 500mhz and 1gb memory A Dell Itanium rack mount machine which won't run VMS. I Vax 4000/90 with a non working PSU A non working ex-millitary oscilloscope I need to check but a number of vt220 terminals with keyboards. I'm sure these will be popular: I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. I am based in Central London and all of the machines are too heavy for me to ship. But let me know I'm sure we can work something out. These are available for free, but as at the moment the only machines I am keeping (or allowed to keep) are my RM machines I am interested in any cables software and monitors for 380Z, 480Z and early PC's I am going to be quite busy all over the weekend, so I may not get a chance to reply until monday. Dan From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 21 13:15:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:15:25 -0400 Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) References: Message-ID: <3C224796169E4762B22229FB5C516F1C@vl420mt> > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:43:53 +1300 > From: "Terry Stewart" > Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) > > Hi, > > I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on > this > list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer > Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around > the Net. ... > Terry Stewart (Tez) > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz ------------------- Nice to see you made it; see, all you had to do was ask ;-) Enjoy, mike From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 21 14:12:24 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:12:24 +0200 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101021191224.GA10457@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > I'm sure these will be popular: I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive > units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I > have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and > other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? The latter would be interesting. Regards, Pontus. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 21 14:27:52 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:27:52 +0100 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014f01cb7156$10099260$301cb720$@ntlworld.com> I would be interested in the VAXstation 4000/90 and I am on the lookout for DSSI drives to put in a 3400 and a 4000-200, but it sounds like you are talking about external cabinets and I am not sure I have space for these (how big are they?). I wouldn't mind a spare VT220 as well. I was also given a Sun Ultra 5 a little while back and I think I need a special keyboard and mouse combination, would you have one of these? I live in Manchester, we would need to work something out. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams > Sent: 21 October 2010 19:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize > > Hi, > > I am moving to a smaller place and need to off-load some bits I am not going > to have space for. > > An Octane (works but case in a bad shape) dual processor sse graphics it had > 1gb of memory but some was bad, I think it's 768mb A Sun Blade 2000 Dual > processors with 1gb memory and 18gb drive. > 2 rack mount sparc machines with 2xmachines in each unit (Non sun) I think > they are 500mhz and 1gb memory A Dell Itanium rack mount machine which > won't run VMS. I Vax 4000/90 with a non working PSU A non working ex- > millitary oscilloscope I need to check but a number of vt220 terminals with > keyboards. > > I'm sure these will be popular: I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive units. > They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I have all > the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and other cables for > Vaxstation 3100's. > > > I am based in Central London and all of the machines are too heavy for me to > ship. But let me know I'm sure we can work something out. > > These are available for free, but as at the moment the only machines I am > keeping (or allowed to keep) are my RM machines I am interested in any > cables software and monitors for 380Z, 480Z and early PC's I am going to be > quite busy all over the weekend, so I may not get a chance to reply until > monday. > > > > > > Dan From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 21 14:31:32 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:31:32 +0100 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: <20101021191224.GA10457@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7E6BAD4B8F6E4E05AFE784F6CBF38D2A@ANTONIOPC> Pontus Pihlgren [pontus at Update.UU.SE] wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: >> I'm sure these will be popular: I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. I also >> have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I have >> all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and other >> cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > The latter would be interesting. Years ago I had a SCSI disk that had been used on a VAX 3600 series machine via a SCSI->DSSI converter, so I suspect that the anser is the latter. I've never seen anything that would let you run DSSI disks on a SCSI controller: I'm pretty sure that DSSI disks always cost more than SCSI disks of similar capacity (DEC disks were never the cheapest on the block, were they :-)). Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 14:17:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:17:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Oct 20, 10 01:54:04 pm Message-ID: > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > n00b in this respect. > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > and piece numbers. What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level here? In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 14:18:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:18:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto aution In-Reply-To: <20101020135328.P47509@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 20, 10 01:54:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > 2) What would I run it on? The most logical machine for me to use would > > be the PERQ, on the groundis it does at least have a bitmapped monochrome > > display. But I doubt the emualtor runs on that. > > Just write a PC/Windoze emulator to run on the Perq, and then run the > emulator under that! :-) You do relaise it would be conisderable simpler _for me_ to somehow get printouts of the Alto scheamtics on Bitsavers and then sit down with the wire wrap tool :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 13:53:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Updates on repairing Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4CBF2413.4020607@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Oct 20, 10 12:17:07 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks everyone, I guess I have no choice but to attempt to not only get > all the cards in the alto to work, but also get the disk drive and disk > pack working properly... Lets hope just a couple components are bad, > that are easily diagnosable... Provided the PSU is good (and you have checked that, right :-)), I can't see that plugging all the boards in can do any damage. OK, when it doesn't work, you don't know immeidately where the problem is, but it shouldn't be all that hard to identify sections that are working. Somebody mentioned the trick of tracing the microcode with a logic analyser. This is something I've done many times (not on the Alto, since I don;t have one, but certainly on PERQs and HP9800s). Assuming you have a sorce listing of the microcode, this will tell you a lot about what it's doing or not doing. I understand that the Alto doesn't alas, have a test connector carrying the microcode address bus (the 2 machines I mentioned both do). So you have to pick the signals off the backplane If you don't ahve a logic analyser, then another trick that can help is to connect the microcode address lines to one set of inputs of an bit comparator. The other set of inputs comes from a suitable set of DIP or thumbwheel switcehs. Feed the 'equals' output of the comparator to a logic rpboe or a monostabel and LED. The idea is that while you can't trace the microcode, you can at least see if certain routines are being executed (set the address of the start of the rotine on the switches, if the logic brobe is triggered, then the microde is gettign to that address). Does it ever run any of the video routines, things like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 15:02:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:02:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Would a bog-standard 4164 be a suitable replacement for a MCM4517 In-Reply-To: <4CBF8DE8.9080708@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 20, 10 05:48:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/20/2010 02:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Could you use a 4164 instead? (it might require a pull-up or > > pull-down on pin 9 so it doesn't float). > I'd just hardwire pin 9 to either +5V or ground. Probably easiest to > tie it to +5V on pin 8. I've replaced 4116s (3-rail) with 4164s in an 'emergency'. Bend out pins 1 and 8 (-5V and +12V on the 4116, N/C nad +5V on the 4164) and jumpr pin 8 to pin 9 (+5V on the 4116, A7 on the 4164) on the chip. Then plug it in. This, of couse ties A7 high since it's going into the 5V pin of the socket. > > 16K DRAMs all required 128 row refresh in 2 ms. > > 64K DRAMs came in two kinds. Some required 256 row refresh in 4 ms, > while others (specifically intended for compatibility with 16K DRAMs) > required only 128 row refresh in 2 ms. The latter kind will work with a > 7-bit refresh counter (e.g., 3242, or the counter built into the Z-80), > while the former will not. > > However, in this case, you're only going to use 128 rows (and only half > of each row), so either kind of 64K DRAM should be suitable. I asusme in all cases, the row that's seleected by a particular address is also the row that's refreshed by that address, so the rows that get no refesh are the ones that are never used in this arrangement. I can think of no sane reason to desing a DRAM any other way, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 14:58:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Oct 21, 10 10:34:55 am Message-ID: > > Yes, I always thoroughly inspect machines now before an attempted boot up, > having removed rodents, cockroaches, spiders, re-plugged detached internal I've never had to remove any sizeable creatures, fortuantely... And I tend to work on machines that are large enough to contain them. > connectors and even discovered half the innards are missing on occasions. Ouch!. > > I don't normally test the power supply separately though. It sounds like a > good idea. What kind of load/resistance would you suggest in such a testing > circuit? It depends on the power supply. You want to load it at a reasonable current, but not enough to damage it (obviously). So for the sort of SMPSU found in older desktop machines, I might load the 5V line (main output) at about 1-2A. So perhaps a 6V 12W car bulb. For some of the PSUs in my larger machines, I've used the 2 filamanets of a 6V headlamp bulb in parallel (say drawing 10A between them). In genreal, the other ouptus 'tag along' and don't need to be loaded, but there are exceptions to this. If an output has its own _swtiching_ regulator, then it probably does need a load. How do you know if it's has its own switching regualtor? Well, a scheamtic of the PSU will tell you, but they are hard to find for many machines, even when there is a service/technical manual. Often the PSU is a bought-in module, and no schematic is given. Even when it is, it may be misleading (the one in the TRS-80 M3/M4 manual is definitely incorrect!) If in doubt, it doesn't hurt to load all outputs. Perhaps about 0.5A for the +12/-12V outputs (A 12V 5W tailalamp bulb :-)). Of course if there's a label on the PSU giving the output current ratings, you cna use that as a guid. Use a load around half the maximum load given there. In amny machines the PSU is a separate model with a cable carring the outputs to the logic boards. This is the easiest type to test, just unplug that cable and conenct up the resistors. Then tun on the PSU and check the voltages across them. Some machines (I am thinking of some of the HPs I've worked on) have much of the PSU on its own PCB(s) which plugs into the machine's backplane. The problem comes when that backplane also carries a significat amount of logic in that you can't easily isolate the PSU outputs from that logic. In some cases I've made up test boxes with suitable connectors to plug the PSU board into, wirtes to resistors as a dummy load. That's probably only worth doing if you have several such amchines to work on. Probably the worst are machiens where the PSU regualtors are on the same PCB as the logic. better-grade stuff (again, some HP instruments are like this) have jumper links you cna remove to disconnct the PSU and thus test it withoug risking the logic. Others don't. I am not sure what yuou could do with a VIC20, say, other htan power it up and hope. Incidentally, my general procedure for bring up a newly acquired machine goes something like this (it can vary, of course, depending on the machine) Dismantle it as far as is sensible. I don't open HDAs, but just about everything else comes apart Visually inspect everythign. Look for bad connections, burnt parts, missing components, modfications, etc. If necessary, trace out full schematics (alas this often _is_ necessary for the machines I collect)., Dismantle the keyboard, clean keycaps and switch contacts. Dismantle, clean and oil fans and other mechancial bits that might need it. Obviously this depends a lot on the type of device. Assemble enough of the PSU/machine to test the former. Sart by doing an earth continuity test (at a suitably high current, I don't have a PAT tester, but testing at twice the fuse current should be OK for home use :-)), and then do an insulation test (at 1000V). Then apply mains and check the PSU outputs on dummy load. Check and align floppy drives on the exerciser (did I mention I have some odd test gear here :-)). A hint here. If you are goign to dismantle a (working-ish) floppy drive, connect it to the exerciser first and seek to cylinder 0. Then record the head position, e.g. by measuring the gap between the head carriage and the end stop with feeler gauges. When you put it back together, again seek to cylinder 0 and adjust so the gap is the same. This is not accurate enough to replace a proper alignment, but it will get the heads near enough that you can at least see the CE pattern on the alignment disk. Put the machine together, starting with a minimal configuration, even one that will fail power-on diagnostics in a known way. An example of that is that an HP9836 will give an error if it can't find a floppy controller board. But powering up without the floppy controller and getting that error is basically saying that part of the machine is working. Power up and see what happens. Now for the fun part. Track down and cure all the faults... A couple more tips : Get one (or more) of those divided plastic boxes (The Raaco ones are about the best we get over here). When you take the machine apart, use a compartment for each set of mounting hardware (casing screws; PSU fixings; mainboard fixings; etc). If necesary put a slip of paper in the compartment indentifying the hardware. When yuu come to put it back you'll know that the PSU screws are longer than the motherboard screws (or whatever). Don;t be afraid to make notes. I am old-fashioned, so use a paper notebook and pen to record things like which way round a connector goes (if it's not obvious). Or which way the fan points. Or... Some people take photographs for this. Not having a digital camera, I've not tried that method, but it sounds OK. ------------- Incidentally, I've been poking around your web site. I don't agree with all your views on the machines you mention, but why should I :-). A couple of points... Actually the serial and video connectors on the BBC micro _are_ standard DIN plugs. They're not hard to get in the UK. My moan is that the serial connector is stupidly wired. The point is that the qunicuncial (Form C 6 pin) DIN plub will fit either way up. But turning it over doesn't produce a sensible swap of signals. On the Tatung Einstein, turning the plug over swaps TxD with RxD and RTS with CTS, which is useful. I see you have dismantled an IBM colour monitor.... Been there, done that too.. You are lucky it wasn't the 5151 MDA monitor. On that one, you flip off the little coves on top and take out the screws under them (as on the colour one). Then put it face-down and undo the 2 screws going through the flange on the rear case into the front case (again, as on the colour one). There arre 6 more screws on the bottom, you undo _only_ the 4 on the rear case section. Then the rear case comes off. If you undo all 6, the heave mains transformer unit comes loose and hits the back of the CRT. fortuantely I did not discover that the hard way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 15:07:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:07:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 20, 10 11:27:28 pm Message-ID: > > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? I would guess no more sensitive than any other bipolar logic familes. I douvt theu're particuarly small-juction devices. Any semiconductor device -- yes, even a bipolar signal transistor -- can be damaged by static. Put it this way, if you discharge a lage leyden jar across the pinsof a 7400 on a 2N3904, I doubt it would still work. But some, of cours,e are more sensitive than others. MOS devices are more delicate thn bipolar (the oxide insualting the gate electrode can be punctured fairly easily), and the smller the active device, the more delicate it is (it will have a smaller capacitance, so for a given charge oyu get a higher voltage across it). But since we've had bipolar devies for years in untreated expanded polystyrene (sytrofoam)m, etc, I wouldn't worry too much about the HTL parts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 15:09:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Oct 21, 10 05:50:33 pm Message-ID: > Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it > actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the toilet. And for other uses in that location? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 21 15:44:01 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:44:01 +0100 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <41E2CBB1B24C4826AC16B875453D80DC@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > I wonder > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about > this? I know > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. If you post something on Wikipedia it remains yours but you've given the world a licence to do whatever the creative commons lincence and/or GNU docs licence allows them to do. Which (I think) means that they can print it off in a book (as long as there's an appropriate attribuiton). I'm not that bothered so I've not read the licences in detail (but I would if I were going to copy articles wholesale and sell them ...). In general, if you write something on Wikipedia it looks like you're trying to make it available to the world, so it's no big surprise to me that someone has done that. That said, if I bought a book that turned out to be a reprint of one of more Wikipedia articles and it wasn't pretty clear up front that that was going to be the case, I'd certainly be miffed. But if I were the author of all (or some) of any of those articles, I don't think I'd be justified in complaining much. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 21 15:55:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101021135226.E86719@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). If it were run by college administrators, then the policy would be to cut up the rarer one to use as parts for the common one. Such as filching keys from a console terminal to repair an IBM Selectric B. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I did not quit yesterday. Today is another day. From tingox at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 02:10:28 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:10:28 +0200 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. Details: root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms 14.051 ms 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms 14.759 ms 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 ms 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 ms 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 ms 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms 42.313 ms 40.571 ms 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms 147.097 ms 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms 150.014 ms 150.329 ms 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) 167.084 ms 156.374 ms vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 158.136 ms 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 ms 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms 151.915 ms 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * 32 * * * 33 * * * 34 * * * 35 * * * 36 * * * 37 * * * 38 * * * 39 * * * 40 * * * 41 * * * 42 * * * 43 * * * 44 * * * 45 * * * 46 * * * 47 * * * 48 * * * 49 * * * 50 * * * 51 * * * 52 * * * 53 * * * 54 * * * 55 * * * 56 * * * 57 * * * 58 * * * 59 * * * 60 * * * 61 * * * 62 * * * 63 * * * 64 * * * root at kg-quiet# Is it working ok for everyone else? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen Oslo, Norway From kb-internet at comcast.net Thu Oct 21 09:06:36 2010 From: kb-internet at comcast.net (kb internet) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:06:36 -0400 Subject: IBM 7010 Photo (Re: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy?) Message-ID: <05358ECE-D827-48DD-A792-7FE2B025A8C4@comcast.net> Hi I was looking for the picture of the IBM 7010 - is it still available? I think I used to program on this back in the late sixties at Chevrolet. Thanks Trina From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 21 16:18:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:18:45 -0600 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:10:28 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > Is it working ok for everyone else? Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. Can you reach bitsavers.org? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 16:23:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:23:26 -0700 Subject: 1986 NSA paper on computers In-Reply-To: <20101021180901.7B0F1A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4CC01BD9.1052.45C534@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101021180901.7B0F1A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CC04CDE.17471.10655A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2010 at 14:09, Dennis Boone wrote: > A similar study from 1964 circulated a couple of months ago, in case > anyone missed it. Might be interesting to compare. > > http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf One of the interesting notes in the sea of redactions in the 1986 document was the mention of the useful of the 77 (octal) instruction on the CDC 1604. This is not something that I'm familiar with, as it's not a used opcode on the standard 1604. Was this perhaps the so-called "pop count" instruction? (count the number of one bits in a word; seen as the Cxi Xj instruction on the CDC 6000 series). Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:25:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400 Subject: 1986 NSA paper on computers In-Reply-To: <4CC04CDE.17471.10655A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC01BD9.1052.45C534@cclist.sydex.com> <20101021180901.7B0F1A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CC04CDE.17471.10655A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? Not me. I probably have enough of the modules that I could build one, however. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 21 16:28:17 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > Details: > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to classiccmp.org > (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms 14.051 ms > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > 14.759 ms > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 ms > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 ms > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 ms > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms 42.313 ms > 40.571 ms > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > 147.097 ms > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms 150.014 > ms 150.329 ms > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) 167.084 > ms 156.374 ms > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 158.136 ms > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 ms > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms 151.915 > ms > 20 * * * > 21 * * * > 22 * * * > 23 * * * > 24 * * * > 25 * * * > 26 * * * > 27 * * * > 28 * * * > 29 * * * > 30 * * * > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > 32 * * * > 33 * * * > 34 * * * > 35 * * * > 36 * * * > 37 * * * > 38 * * * > 39 * * * > 40 * * * > 41 * * * > 42 * * * > 43 * * * > 44 * * * > 45 * * * > 46 * * * > 47 * * * > 48 * * * > 49 * * * > 50 * * * > 51 * * * > 52 * * * > 53 * * * > 54 * * * > 55 * * * > 56 * * * > 57 * * * > 58 * * * > 59 * * * > 60 * * * > 61 * * * > 62 * * * > 63 * * * > 64 * * * > root at kg-quiet# > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen > Oslo, Norway Works OK for me, here is my tracert: 1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER [192.168.0.1] 2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1 3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net [80.5.1 65.13] 4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net [195. 182.180.37] 5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.10 5.175.1] 6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253 .187.178] 7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.10 5.64.21] 8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.10 5.159.30] 9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253. 185.81] 10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com [130.11 7.14.133] 11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com [130.11 7.51.230] 12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54 .40.234] 13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54 .6.178] 14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.27. 30] 15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [ 38.20.47.170] 16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10 17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com [208.82.151.42] 18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22] 19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com [208.75.82.50] 20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms 209-145-130-66.accessus.net [209.145.130.66] 21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.17] Regards Rob From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 21 16:30:07 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: from "Rich Alderson" at Oct 20, 10 01:54:04 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > > n00b in this respect. > > > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them > associated > > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > > and piece numbers. > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > here? > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > The > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > Yes. :-) Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component from machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately catalogued with a note in the record stating that it was originally part of machine A. I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. That would not be appropriate for a machine that is historically significant in its particular configuration (for example, our PDP-12), but that's a hard argument to make for the vast majority of PDP-8/e's. And given the records we keep, we could restore the accession to its original configuration if needed. It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and restoration. -- Ian From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 21 16:52:03 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > all of the software for it. ---- And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) mike From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:53:10 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: <20101021191224.GA10457@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101021191224.GA10457@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: >> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. >> I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I >> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and >> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > The latter would be interesting. > > Regards, > Pontus. > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. Dan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 21 17:08:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705@bitsavers.org> On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote: > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > >> That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late >> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have >> all of the software for it. > ---- > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a couple of weeks ago. From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 17:14:26 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article > >, > Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > > very nice ! Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 21 17:51:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Dan Roganti writes: > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. This first round was just to reproduce the existing manx. Next up is to add users and roles to provide for community additions. Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code base has been developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 18:04:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <4CC0B9F0.5000705@bitsavers.org> References: , , <4CC0B9F0.5000705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote: > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > couple of weeks ago. Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my hellbox and the blue manual that gives the schematics for the system. But no firmware listing for the monitor... BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on eBay offering the INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the each? --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 21 18:04:06 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: from "Rich Alderson" at Oct 20, 10 01:54:04 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item >> and piece numbers. > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level here? I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. You donate items to a museum, let's say for simplicity's sake a horse shoe and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups and matching saucers, pot, sugar and creamer. You do this in 2010. That's the first field of the accession numbers. The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the museum this year. These numbers will be the second fields of the respective accession numbers. The horse shoe will receive accession number 2010.075.001, and be marked as 2010.75.1 The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar, 2010.076.002; the creamer, 2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair, 2010.076.004A and 2010.076.004B; and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer will be the matching decoration on each pair. You could also simply number each piece individually, but then you lose information. > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries to please everyone in the know about a topic--there are art museums which I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit over and over, for example.) Neither policy is "broken", they simply differ. Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea services. My personal preference would be to replicate the manufacturer's bill of materials, assigning accession numbers at each level down to the circuit boards (or equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules, but those don't crop up in the time frame in which we have specialized). Since the catalog here was set up by someone else several years before I joined the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in place--we're not in a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my way. We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would really rather be restoring a system to working condition, but without a catalog, you will very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and your reason for being a museum. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From chd at chdickman.com Thu Oct 21 20:09:31 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400 Subject: HTL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? > > Why do you ask? I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for. -chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 21 20:23:11 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: from "Rich Alderson" at Oct 20, 10 01:54:04 pm Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005@bitsavers.org> On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier But necessary. We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in them, for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions that fact. It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that should be in an accessioned artifact is missing, and the condition. It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection. One of the requirements for museum accreditation is having a significant portion of your collection cataloged. CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We have just under 75,000 items visible in the on-line data base http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 21 23:37:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it is working as expected. When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down but the tape drive motor doesn't move. Is this normal? Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 21 23:50:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > is working as expected. > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive should spin the tape a bit). --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 22 00:13:36 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: References: <20101021191224.GA10457@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden and unless you find someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I wouldn't mind paying for it. Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is this thing? /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 22 00:16:37 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674@Update.UU.SE> This is a semiuseful tool: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://manx.classiccmp.org/ Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many thanks. /Pontus On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > Details: > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org > traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms 14.051 > ms > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > 14.759 ms > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 ms > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 ms > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 ms > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms 42.313 > ms 40.571 ms > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > 147.097 ms > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms 150.014 > ms 150.329 ms > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) 167.084 > ms 156.374 ms > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 158.136 > ms > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 ms > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms 151.915 > ms > 20 * * * > 21 * * * > 22 * * * > 23 * * * > 24 * * * > 25 * * * > 26 * * * > 27 * * * > 28 * * * > 29 * * * > 30 * * * > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > 32 * * * > 33 * * * > 34 * * * > 35 * * * > 36 * * * > 37 * * * > 38 * * * > 39 * * * > 40 * * * > 41 * * * > 42 * * * > 43 * * * > 44 * * * > 45 * * * > 46 * * * > 47 * * * > 48 * * * > 49 * * * > 50 * * * > 51 * * * > 52 * * * > 53 * * * > 54 * * * > 55 * * * > 56 * * * > 57 * * * > 58 * * * > 59 * * * > 60 * * * > 61 * * * > 62 * * * > 63 * * * > 64 * * * > root at kg-quiet# > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen > Oslo, Norway From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Oct 21 19:57:55 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101@comcast.net> Al and everyone else, I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto diskpacks up to bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please provide the steps on how to do so? If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the disk packs have valid data on them, this would be yet another step completed in getting the alto up and running =) Thanks! From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Oct 21 22:26:49 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> References: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902@tx.rr.com> On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Christian Corti >> >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >>> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest >>> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't >>> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in >>> the late 1950s). >> >> Then you've been told wrong. >> Several examples: >> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just >> yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. >> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) >> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently >> still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) >> All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in >> southern Germany. >> >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting >>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm >>> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it >>> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it >>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. >> >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and >> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. > > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. > > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? > > If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my machine went live either. > > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: > > 1958, LGP-30 > 1958, Zuse Z22 > Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate Access Store by ICT). > > Thanks again. > > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I catch up with my e-mails. > > > According to this: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. I thought this was pretty interesting as well: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) Later, Charlie C. From bear at typewritten.org Fri Oct 22 01:23:44 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? It could be, depending on firmware. ok bear From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 22 01:53:46 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> References: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 Roger Holmes wrote: > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine > with random access program and data storage. Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, just with a bit lattency... I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is operated now. When it moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours with demonstrations done by the former maintainers of the machine. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 22 04:03:10 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > just with a bit lattency... Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing any arbitrary cell needs the same time. But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too, called "Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast memory". Christian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Oct 22 04:11:53 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100 Subject: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > > And we have a winner!! > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate the > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world to > do so > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > ? No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a list of the top ten not just the top one. From fryers at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 05:11:20 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it >> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. > > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. ISBN 10: 1155452186 ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 By: Books LLC http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English-Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top >> Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the >> toilet. > > And for other uses in that location? The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay in an emergency. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 22 08:27:37 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) In-Reply-To: <4CC0E193.9070101@comcast.net> References: <4CC0E193.9070101@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org> On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Al and everyone else, > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC computer I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies sectors across through a PC parallel port. Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I normally supplied a couple of them with the machines that came from me, and could tell pretty quickly if they need to be copied. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 09:07:24 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > is working as expected. > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > should spin the tape a bit). > > --Chuck > > Thanks Chuck I was afraid of that. That was my recollection of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the motor doesn't spin. As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30 minute job to spool it back on. I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what is up. The fact that I see the head moving gives me confidence that it is most likely the motor drive circuit. This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought I'd try a drive that was inteneded. Dwight Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 22 09:13:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509@neurotica.com> On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From js at cimmeri.com Fri Oct 22 09:22:44 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:22:44 -0500 Subject: Almost free: various DEC, Wyse items, for pickup Rockville, MD, USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC19E34.90306@cimmeri.com> Last call for items located in Rockville, MD, 20850. Already taken: CCS S-100 chassis; HP 712; Fluke 8520. Almost free: $2 (two) dollars per item, local pickup only at this time, no photos. Offer expires 11/7/10. 1. Digital BA23 floor pedestal enclosure, complete with front + rear covers. Very decent shape. No yellowing (painted). 2. Digital LA100 Letterprinter w/ ribbons. Tested working. Has age yellowing (barely perceptible) but no heavy yellowing (eg. from UV light). 3. Digital LA75 Plus Companion Printer (LA75S-A2) w/ parallel + MMJ. Professionally refurbished and assumed working (but untested). Clean and nice cosmetic shape. No yellowing. 4. Wyse 60 RS232C terminal with keyboard and spare analog board. Terminal unit is in excellent shape all around, as is spare analog board. Keyboard was taken apart and thoroughly cleaned -- it works but 3 of the keycaps broke when it slid off my desk. No yellowing on any of the components. My handle on ebay is MdntTrain if anyone wishes to verify my reputation. Email me if interested in any or all. I will select who the items go to. Thank you, John Singleton js at cimmeri.com From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Oct 22 13:22:52 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:22:52 +0200 Subject: Specific maindec for the PDP-8/L ? Message-ID: <4CC1D67C.302@bluewin.ch> There are a lot of maindec ppt images on the net, but I fail to find 8/L specific ones. Or could I just use the 8/I maindec to check out the 8/l core stack, since they share the same stack ? Jos From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri Oct 22 14:04:48 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:04:48 -0700 Subject: AT&T 6300 in the Bay Area Message-ID: I've got a nice, boxed and working AT&T 6300 that has to go ASAP. I've had it on eBay (item 190454801269) but the shipping is/was prohibative ($110ish for 3 boxes) and it's been languishing on The VCGM for too long. I'm brokering this for someone in the NorCal area and if it's not gone very soon it's going back to the owner and subsequently, eventually, to the recycler. I'll pass any reasonable offers on to the owner for consideration. Local pickup is preferred. And no, "you're gonna throw it away anyway so just give it to me" is not a "reasonable" offer. :) -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 22 14:08:51 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:08:51 -0700 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: <41E2CBB1B24C4826AC16B875453D80DC@ANTONIOPC> References: <41E2CBB1B24C4826AC16B875453D80DC@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 21, at 1:44 PM, wrote: > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: >> I wonder >> how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about >> this? I know >> I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > If you post something on Wikipedia it remains yours but you've given > the world > a licence to do whatever the creative commons lincence and/or GNU docs > licence > allows them to do. > > Which (I think) means that they can print it off in a book (as long as > there's > an appropriate attribuiton). > > I'm not that bothered so I've not read the licences in detail (but I > would if > I were going to copy articles wholesale and sell them ...). In > general, if you > write something on Wikipedia it looks like you're trying to make it > available > to the world, so it's no big surprise to me that someone has done that. > > That said, if I bought a book that turned out to be a reprint of one > of more > Wikipedia articles and it wasn't pretty clear up front that that was > going to > be the case, I'd certainly be miffed. But if I were the author of all > (or some) > of any of those articles, I don't think I'd be justified in > complaining much. If one does a search on amazon for "Betascript" (the publishers), you get back 116,000 results on everything from navy ships to game shows to "open theism". Everything is 'edited' by the same 3 people. They're not exactly trying to hide what they're doing, but I'd still call it sleazy, especially when you look at the prices. How they manage to make, for example, "USS Dempsey" into 96 pages when the wikipedia entry is maybe 2 pages is another question. There's also "Alphascript" Publishing, with 67,000 results, and again 3 'editors', but different names. I haven't checked for Deltascript or Gammascript. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 22 14:50:39 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:50:39 -0500 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: <41E2CBB1B24C4826AC16B875453D80DC@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <201010221952.o9MJq0oV001605@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:08 PM 10/22/2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >If one does a search on amazon for "Betascript" (the publishers), you get back 116,000 results on everything from navy ships to game shows to "open theism". Everything is 'edited' by the same 3 people. I wonder how much money they're making. It sounds rather turn-key and fully automatable. - John From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 22 15:05:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:05:00 -0600 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:08:51 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > How they manage to make, for example, "USS Dempsey" into 96 pages when > the wikipedia entry is maybe 2 pages is another question. They include linked articles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 22 15:23:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:23:02 -0600 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700. <4CC0E77F.3000005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Speaking of cataloguing, is there any free open source cataloging software available for small museums that have no budget/support? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 22 15:38:52 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:38:52 -0700 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a6a68fb0fdee6ef7676831991eea62a@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 22, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> How they manage to make, for example, "USS Dempsey" into 96 pages when >> the wikipedia entry is maybe 2 pages is another question. > > They include linked articles. I would guess as much, but when you look at all the links in a typical wikipedia article, including them in a book about the topic quickly becomes rather specious, granted I/we don't know how many or which of them are being included. Using the USS Dempsey as an example again, the wikipedia links include "Pacific Ocean", "aircraft" and "San Francisco, California"; and 2/96 pages is about 2% of root content. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 22 15:50:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:50:05 -0600 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:38:52 -0700. <0a6a68fb0fdee6ef7676831991eea62a@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <0a6a68fb0fdee6ef7676831991eea62a at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > On 2010 Oct 22, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > In article , > > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > >> How they manage to make, for example, "USS Dempsey" into 96 pages when > >> the wikipedia entry is maybe 2 pages is another question. > > > > They include linked articles. > > I would guess as much, but when you look at all the links in a typical > wikipedia article, including them in a book about the topic quickly > becomes rather specious, granted I/we don't know how many or which of > them are being included. I inferred that they didn't include linked articles by robot, but rather by editorial decision. Also, they don't print out at 8.5x11 they print out on a smaller sized page and presumably choose the formatting (font, margins, etc.) in such a manner that it looks more like a book rather than a printed web page from your browser. Formatting choices affect page size dramatically. In wikipedia, linked articles aren't always directly relevant (your pacific ocean example, for instance) neither are all relevant articles explicitly linked. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 14:51:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:51:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <20101021135226.E86719@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 21, 10 01:55:58 pm Message-ID: > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > If it were run by college administrators, then the policy would be to cut > up the rarer one to use as parts for the common one. Such as filching > keys from a console terminal to repair an IBM Selectric B. :-( I was of course thinking of the more sensible situation of either taking parts from a more common (even if still quite rare) device to fix up a very rare one, or taking 2 examples of a rare machine, both not working, and making a working one from them. It's an interesting question whether you should use new parts (from RS/Farnell/Digikey/wherever) or parts taken from contemorary machines to fix up a classic computer, if both are available. Personally, I use new parts if I can, simply becuae they are likely to be more reliable. I am not sure what a museum would do, though. I would guess consider each case separately? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 14:59:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:59:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 21, 10 02:30:07 pm Message-ID: > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > >=20 > > Yes. :-) =20 > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is = > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component fro= > m machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately catalogued= > with a note in the record stating that it was originally part of machine A= OK, that makes sense... I think, acutally, I wouid tie little tags to the PCB handles indicating where they'd come from, and leave a note inside 'machine A' saying that had been moved to 'machine B'. Keeping records is essential, but they can get lost. The more places the information is recorded the better. > . =20 > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an RK05= > drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that machine w= > ith another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. =20 Incidnetally, It will take some finding, but I might have a spare RK8E board set. I certainly don't have a spare drive cable for it, though... Abd hope you're planning on repairing that RK05 :-) > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and restora= > tion. -- Ian=20 True enough. For my own machines I always err on the side of restoration. As I said the other day, the perpose of a computer is to 'compute', and I have no interest in collecting non-working plastic and metal boxes full of PCBs ;-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 15:17:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:17:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Oct 21, 10 04:04:06 pm Message-ID: > >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > >> and piece numbers. > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an=20 > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level here= > ? > > I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. OK, I got that. But why have a maximum of 3 levels? I now understand what you are saying, and I will admit the only examples I can think of that need 4 levels of heirarchy are somewhat strained [1], in my experience having a limit like this on anything is asking for trouble. Like having a maximum deptho fo a directory tree on a filesystem :-) [1] As I understand it, if you acqure an HP 9826 computer system with a printer and a plotter, you might label them : 2010.53.001 (Processor unit) 2010.53.002 (Printer) 2010.53.003 (Plotter) Maybe then 2010.53.001A (RS222 interface card in the processor unit), 2010.53.001B (parallel interface card in the processor unt), 2010.53.003A (HPIB interface PCB in the plotter). But what then do yoy do about an optional firmware ROM on the RS232 interface? OK, asI said, strained, but I am sure there are machines where 3 levels of heirarchy are not really enough. > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The= > =20 > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2=20 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using=20 > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do=20 > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose > of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be > very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will > have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with > the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers > may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the > understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries I do find this difficult to understand (no, not your comments, but such a policy). It's great to say that the calcualtors for a particular thing (say landing a man on the moon) were performed on such-and-such a computer. And to have a working example of such a machine. And of course to preserve the software that was written to do those calcualtions. And if the moachien was modified, or special interfaces were made, then that's something else that should be preserved. But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the same production line would have done just as well. If I was visiting a museum, I would be much more interested to see a working example of the sysem (prefereablly running the rogiianl software) than to see the machine that was actually used, not operational. > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, > etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. Hmm.. I don't think I am terribly happy about that. I would want to open up every machine as it was being catalogued and recurd all the intenral PCBs, what options are installed, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 15:24:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:24:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <4CC0E77F.3000005@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 21, 10 06:23:11 pm Message-ID: > > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier > > But necessary. As most of us know, often it's the 'little bits' (boot disks, manuals, even cables) that can be hell to find and are very important. > > We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in them, > for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions that > fact. I cna think of 2 obvious ways that that could have occured. 1) The machine as accepted as an empty chassis. Now, there's nothing wrong in that, but it darn well should have been catalogued as such. More commonly, only 1 or 2 internal bits have been removed (perhaps to keep another machine running), that's whyh I feel that cataloguing a computer should certainly involve lisitng all the PCBs present, and if possible whether that's enoghh to make a working system, if there are any options installed, and so on. 2) Somebody at the musuem 'borrowed' parts to get another incomplete machine going. I feel the problkem is not that it happened, but that it wasn't recorderd properly. I have, alas, come across meuseum workers who treat the machines like part of their own collection and 'borrow;' from the nearest machine, forgetting that htis is going to cause headaches later on. I've also come across museums that go to far the other way and who won't fit any non-origianl parts ot their machines (even if said parts are indentcial to the faulty/missing ones in the machine, and even if said parts could be easily tagged ot indicate they;'re not original and the date they were fitted). -tony From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:22:00 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:22:00 +0100 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 October 2010 21:17, Tony Duell wrote: > I do find this difficult to understand (no, not your comments, but such a > policy). [...] > But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' > becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the > same production line would have done just as well. > > If I was visiting a museum, I would be much more interested to see a > working example of the sysem (prefereablly running the rogiianl software) > than to see the machine that was actually used, not operational. I think it's fairly safe to say, then, that yours is not a typical response. My guess would be that most people would be far more interested in a particular artefact that had had some famous role than in another, identical one that was never involved in anything interesting but was in full working order. E.g. - just as a hypothetical: "This is Lord Montgomery's personal tank from the North African campaign" (cool and interesting) versus "here is a perfectly working model FYQZ37-B-142/Z type C tank that has never been to war and was never deployed on active service". TBH, I'd not be /particularly/ interested to see either - I'm not much into tanks - but one that was used by someone I've heard of in a campaign I've read about would be far more interesting than a mint one that never did anything. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:37:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:37:58 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <4CC19C0E.3060509@neurotica.com> References: , , , , , <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CC19C0E.3060509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi The Sparcbook I have is an early version and requires one to use the built in backup program. It is a binary so it is not easily patched. With the 8mm, I get write errors that I've not confirmed were caused by the drive or the software in the Sparcbook. I though if I used a drive that was more like what it expected, I stood a better chance. Of coarse, if the drive doesn't work it is no help. I do realize that the 8mm drive should work as well but doesn't seem to. It might be a timing issue with the drive or a bad drive. I'm not setup to do general testing of SCSI drives. I just resently found software that I believe I can use on my DOS machine to try to use the 8mm drive with. I'll try to do that to confirm that the drive is working. Dwight > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > > 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as > well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:52:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:52:57 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com > > On 22 October 2010 21:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > I do find this difficult to understand (no, not your comments, but such a > > policy). > [...] > > But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' > > becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the > > same production line would have done just as well. > > > > If I was visiting a museum, I would be much more interested to see a > > working example of the sysem (prefereablly running the rogiianl software) > > than to see the machine that was actually used, not operational. > > I think it's fairly safe to say, then, that yours is not a typical > response. My guess would be that most people would be far more > interested in a particular artefact that had had some famous role than > in another, identical one that was never involved in anything > interesting but was in full working order. > > E.g. - just as a hypothetical: > > "This is Lord Montgomery's personal tank from the North African > campaign" (cool and interesting) versus "here is a perfectly working > model FYQZ37-B-142/Z type C tank that has never been to war and was > never deployed on active service". > > TBH, I'd not be /particularly/ interested to see either - I'm not much > into tanks - but one that was used by someone I've heard of in a > campaign I've read about would be far more interesting than a mint one > that never did anything. > Hi I thought I'd stay out of this but have to say something here. This is how history gets filtered and the actual history is lost. While audience appeal may be important for a museum, sequential history is imortant as well. It might be that that tank was used as a prototype of a gun stabilizing system that later made the difference of Montgomery not getting his ass blown off. It is also inportant for museums not to rewrite history by ignoring why things got the way they were. What you don't say is as important as what you do. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 17:04:01 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:04:01 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hi I need to check that the tape isn't already sitting on the end mark. It might be that it has nothing to do. I've not actually tried it on my SparcBook yet. The box I put it in doesn't supply terminator power and I need to plug several things together. Dwight > From: bear at typewritten.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > It could be, depending on firmware. > > ok > bear > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 22 17:24:55 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:24:55 -0700 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73221d5dae31a258012e36eca2d71d09@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 22, at 1:50 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <0a6a68fb0fdee6ef7676831991eea62a at cs.ubc.ca>, > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> On 2010 Oct 22, at 1:05 PM, Richard wrote: >>> >>> In article , >>> Brent Hilpert writes: >>> >>>> How they manage to make, for example, "USS Dempsey" into 96 pages >>>> when >>>> the wikipedia entry is maybe 2 pages is another question. >>> >>> They include linked articles. >> >> I would guess as much, but when you look at all the links in a typical >> wikipedia article, including them in a book about the topic quickly >> becomes rather specious, granted I/we don't know how many or which of >> them are being included. > > I inferred that they didn't include linked articles by robot, but > rather by editorial decision. Where there are customer reviews of these 'books', all those I have come across indicate the 'editorial' contribution is non-existant or next to it. I suspect as John was suggesting it's probably all or mostly automated. Customer review of "Flywheel Energy Storage": .. at a simply amazing price. For two dollars fifty cents a page you get 96 pages of Wikipedia content. And nothing else. Not even edited before it's published. The chutzpah of the publishers beggars the imagination. Or read the customer reviews of this gem (one of their "books" is "Criticism of Wikipedia": http://www.amazon.com/Criticism-Wikipedia-Frederic-P-Miller/dp/ 6130056184/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in Scam. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 22 17:39:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:39:02 -0400 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CC19C0E.3060509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC21286.5020609@neurotica.com> On 10/22/10 5:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > The Sparcbook I have is an early version and requires one to > use the built in backup program. If it's running SunOS, this is not likely, whether it's early version of the hardware or not. If it has a SCSI device driver that handles tape devices ("ls -l /dev/*st*"), then you can use lots of different programs to access the tape drive. The only way this might not be the case is if they bastardized SunOS in such a way that it doesn't directly recognize SCSI tape devices and present them as standard device nodes. As there's no reason in the world for them to do that, I really doubt they would have. They definitely did *not* do that on the later SPARCbook-3 series (the SPARCstation-5 laptops), as I've used all manner of tape drives (up to DLT-4000) on those, and other random SCSI devices as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pspan at amerytel.net Fri Oct 22 18:17:33 2010 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:17:33 -0500 Subject: viper 2150 drives Message-ID: <9DBB543D2ACE4C2A9DA7B4A5CA2FDB5F@LENOVOC1766E24> Hello, Yes the tape should poition and the head seak track one. The 2150 has a puck that pinches when the slide locks the cartridge in place. Check to be sure that the puck is not soft with your finger. DO NOT APPLY ALCOHOL TO THE PUCK. The puck is driven by a belt from the drive motor. Hope this helps. Phil From drb at msu.edu Fri Oct 22 18:42:50 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:42:50 -0400 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:17:39 BST.) References: Message-ID: <20101022234250.8AD48A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, > > printers, etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs > > and cartridges, tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like > > spare boards, are catalogued when they come in, but boards installed > > in larger items only get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or > > replacement. > Hmm.. I don't think I am terribly happy about that. I would want to open > up every machine as it was being catalogued and recurd all the intenral > PCBs, what options are installed, and so on. Museums have lots of constraints. The most onerous is almost always funding. I'm sure we'd all love to see such complete records created and maintained, but the cost of such cataloging is phenomenal. In addition to the added cost, the more detail you collect the more staff you need to gather it, and the more variation you're going to get in the judgement calls made by different individuals. That said, I _can_ see some value in tracking certain kinds of options that add major functionality. For example, if your IBM 3090 has the vector facility that seems noteworthy. (Ok, that's not the best example, since the model number of such a machine reflects the vf, but pretend it doesn't for the sake of argument.) De From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 22 18:55:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101022163745.A25454@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I got that. But why have a maximum of 3 levels? I now understand what > you are saying, and I will admit the only examples I can think of that > need 4 levels of heirarchy are somewhat strained [1], in my experience > having a limit like this on anything is asking for trouble. Like having a > maximum deptho fo a directory tree on a filesystem :-) > > [1] As I understand it, if you acqure an HP 9826 computer system with a > printer and a plotter, you might label them : > 2010.53.001 (Processor unit) > 2010.53.002 (Printer) > 2010.53.003 (Plotter) > Maybe then 2010.53.001A (RS222 interface card in the processor unit), > 2010.53.001B (parallel interface card in the processor unt), 2010.53.003A > (HPIB interface PCB in the plotter). > But what then do yoy do about an optional firmware ROM on the RS232 > interface? 2010.53.001A.1 There are some really limited aspects to almost any cataloging system. But there are often ways to expand past those limitations. For example, the "cutter numbers" of the Library Of Congress cataloging numbers. > But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' > becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the > same production line would have done just as well. Such as Hilton and Burr's dueling pistols? The Hasselblad that went to the moon? > If I was visiting a museum, I would be much more interested to see a > working example of the sysem (prefereablly running the rogiianl software) > than to see the machine that was actually used, not operational. Your primary interest is the technology. There are OTHER people where the primary interest might only be the history. Somewhere, there might even be somebody who would treasure the first clone that Dell assembled. Dude! You're getting a POS. > > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > Hmm.. I don't think I am terribly happy about that. I would want to open > up every machine as it was being catalogued and recurd all the intenral > PCBs, what options are installed, and so on. Howzbout the date codes of each chip? The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how interesting/important that item is. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 22 19:26:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <20101022234250.8AD48A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20101022234250.8AD48A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20101022171758.L25454@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Dennis Boone wrote: > That said, I _can_ see some value in tracking certain kinds of options > that add major functionality. For example, if your IBM 3090 has the > vector facility that seems noteworthy. (Ok, that's not the best > example, since the model number of such a machine reflects the vf, but > pretend it doesn't for the sake of argument.) Any modifications, options, or accessories that are not clearly indicated by the model number need to be cataloged. Does the TRS80 have a lower-case mod? Added "ctrl" key? Level II ROM upgrade? RAM population? Does the expansion interface have a "data separator" or "doubler"? (Yes, I know some of you have never seen one without, but the early ones did NOT have them, and if you had added an 8" drive mod, the two mods were mutually exclusive (unless you did some EXTRA work on it.)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 22 19:32:39 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:32:39 -0400 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] References: <20101022234250.8AD48A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20101022171758.L25454@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 8:26 PM Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Dennis Boone wrote: >> That said, I _can_ see some value in tracking certain kinds of options >> that add major functionality. For example, if your IBM 3090 has the >> vector facility that seems noteworthy. (Ok, that's not the best >> example, since the model number of such a machine reflects the vf, but >> pretend it doesn't for the sake of argument.) > > Any modifications, options, or accessories that are not clearly indicated > by the model number need to be cataloged. > Does the TRS80 have a lower-case mod? > Added "ctrl" key? > Level II ROM upgrade? > RAM population? > Does the expansion interface have a "data separator" or "doubler"? (Yes, > I know some of you have never seen one without, but the early ones did > NOT have them, and if you had added an 8" drive mod, the two mods were > mutually exclusive (unless you did some EXTRA work on it.)) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Seems to me you need to have an expert (of that particular companies systems) at the museum to know what to look for to catalog. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 22 19:49:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: <20101022234250.8AD48A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20101022171758.L25454@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101022173450.L25454@shell.lmi.net> > > by the model number need to be cataloged. > > Does the TRS80 have a lower-case mod? > > Added "ctrl" key? > > Level II ROM upgrade? > > RAM population? > > Does the expansion interface have a "data separator" or "doubler"? (Yes, > > I know some of you have never seen one without, but the early ones did > > NOT have them, and if you had added an 8" drive mod, the two mods were > > mutually exclusive (unless you did some EXTRA work on it.)) On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > Seems to me you need to have an expert (of that particular companies > systems) at the museum to know what to look for to catalog. YES! Cataloging is NOT a task for unskilled labor! You can not catalog a PC if you can't visually recognize the differences between a 5150 an 5160 mother board. Cataloging that is not done by experts can not be trusted. And all college administrators, or anybody else who does not understand the need for expertise, must be defenestrated before commencing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Oct 23 01:42:32 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:42:32 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <4CC21286.5020609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/22/10 5:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > The Sparcbook I have is an early version and requires one to > use the built in backup program. What version of SunOS are you running??? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 23 01:44:37 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 01:44:37 -0500 Subject: XTIDE rom and board, Andrew? Message-ID: Hi Gang, I just got a Compaq lugable, and it seems that the XT IDE board is the next thing to add. Anybody (Andrew Lynch?) have some blank boards and the rom, or a completed board, cable, drive they what to sell? Thanks, Randy From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 08:58:55 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:58:55 -0400 Subject: XTIDE rom and board, Andrew? Message-ID: <542AB5E39EEC4D2E8F1027BE3A410C3B@andrewdesktop> http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/292868.html XTIDE rom and board, Andrew? Randy Dawson rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 23 01:44:37 CDT 2010 * Previous message: viper 2150 drives * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Hi Gang, I just got a Compaq lugable, and it seems that the XT IDE board is the next thing to add. Anybody (Andrew Lynch?) have some blank boards and the rom, or a completed board, cable, drive they what to sell? Thanks, Randy -----REPLY----- Hi Randy! Thanks! Yes I have plenty of the XT-IDE PCBs left. They are $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your XT-IDE PCB right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I have a small number of S-100 PIC/RTC boards with Intel 8259 Programmable Interrupt Controller (or equivalent) and MM58167A RTC left over from a recent project. If anyone wants some please contact me. Here is a description with video of the board in action: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PIC&RTC%20Board/My%20PIC%20Boar d.htm From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 23 09:04:02 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 07:04:02 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <4CC21286.5020609@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: > From: geoffr at zipcon.net > > On 10/22/10 5:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > The Sparcbook I have is an early version and requires one to > > use the built in backup program. > > What version of SunOS are you running??? > > Hi It is SunOS 4.1.2 but the hardware is custom on the SparcBook S1. It doesn't have OpenBoot. It has a custom BIOS It wasn't until S2 and S3 that they made the hardware interface more genaric. Dave has sent me some simple command line commands to try. Since these are just normal commands they should work. I'll give them a try sometime this weekend. The OS is said to be quite custom under the cover and some normal things may or may not work as expected. I've already found a few missing commands. It does have a working OpenWin. Dwight From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 23 09:07:00 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 15:07:00 +0100 Subject: Apple IIa Message-ID: <018f01cb72bb$930e2660$b92a7320$@ntlworld.com> A friend has found that he has an Apple IIa with two Apple disk drives. I know nothing about Apple machines and would like to tell him if this is something relatively rare or still quite common. I know I asked a similar question a while ago for another friend but I have been unable to find the email in the archives so I don't know if I am asking about the same model again this time. Any information appreciated Thanks Rob From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 23 10:11:05 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 08:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <018f01cb72bb$930e2660$b92a7320$@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Oct 23, 10 03:07:00 pm" Message-ID: <201010231511.o9NFB5SW018450@floodgap.com> > A friend has found that he has an Apple IIa with two Apple disk drives. I > know nothing about Apple machines and would like to tell him if this is > something relatively rare or still quite common. I know I asked a similar > question a while ago for another friend but I have been unable to find the > email in the archives so I don't know if I am asking about the same model > again this time. Any information appreciated II*a*? Not II*e* or II*c*? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "You Only Live Twice" ------------------------------ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 23 10:40:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:40:38 +0100 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <201010231511.o9NFB5SW018450@floodgap.com> References: <018f01cb72bb$930e2660$b92a7320$@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Oct 23, 10 03:07:00 pm" <201010231511.o9NFB5SW018450@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com> That is definitely what he said, IIa. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: 23 October 2010 16:11 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple IIa > > > A friend has found that he has an Apple IIa with two Apple disk > > drives. I know nothing about Apple machines and would like to tell him > > if this is something relatively rare or still quite common. I know I > > asked a similar question a while ago for another friend but I have > > been unable to find the email in the archives so I don't know if I am > > asking about the same model again this time. Any information > > appreciated > > II*a*? Not II*e* or II*c*? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "You Only Live Twice" ---------------------------- > -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 11:00:08 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > That is definitely what he said, > IIa. > > Regards > > Rob He is probably thinking of a II+. There is no such machine as the IIa. There was, however, the II, II+, IIc, IIe, and the IIgs. A true, original II (no plus) is pretty valuable, in that it's the first of the line, and they're fairly rare. The II+, which has the exact same case, motherboard (different ROMs), etc - but with a badge reading "Apple ][ Plus", is a very common machine, but is generally harder to find than the IIe. The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". The platinum version has a numeric keypad. Both of these machines are EXTREMELY common - at one point just about every school had forty of these things. They're worth about ten bucks. The IIc is a small, compact machine with a built-in floppy drive. It's very common as well. The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've got some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or something like that. You may, however, have some kind of clone machine - there were lots - and they usually looked just like the real thing. Those are interesting to people that are in to that sort of thing. The Apple II series was and still is very popular. There are lots of people out there, such as myself, that still regularly tinker and hack on these machines, building hardware and writing software. If you have a good clean working machine, you should have no problem finding a home for it. Apple II's without school names engraved into them are nice to find :) -Ian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 23 11:38:48 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 17:38:48 +0100 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com> <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> I have told him there is no such thing as a IIa (unless it is some sort of clone). I have asked him to check again and I have also asked him for a picture of the machine. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: 23 October 2010 17:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Apple IIa > > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > That is definitely what he said, > > IIa. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > He is probably thinking of a II+. There is no such machine as the IIa. There > was, however, the II, II+, IIc, IIe, and the IIgs. > > A true, original II (no plus) is pretty valuable, in that it's the first of the line, > and they're fairly rare. The II+, which has the exact same case, motherboard > (different ROMs), etc - but with a badge reading "Apple ][ Plus", is a very > common machine, but is generally harder to find than the IIe. > > The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". The platinum version has > a numeric keypad. Both of these machines are EXTREMELY common - at one > point just about every school had forty of these things. They're worth about > ten bucks. > > The IIc is a small, compact machine with a built-in floppy drive. It's very > common as well. > > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. > These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've > got some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or > something like that. > > You may, however, have some kind of clone machine - there were lots - and > they usually looked just like the real thing. Those are interesting to people > that are in to that sort of thing. > > The Apple II series was and still is very popular. There are lots of people out > there, such as myself, that still regularly tinker and hack on these machines, > building hardware and writing software. If you have a good clean working > machine, you should have no problem finding a home for it. Apple II's > without school names engraved into them are nice to find :) > > -Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 23 11:47:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from Mr Ian Primus at "Oct 23, 10 09:00:08 am" Message-ID: <201010231647.o9NGlAee010678@floodgap.com> > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. > These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've got > some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or > something like that. The GS is my favourite Apple II -- they really are wonderful computers and it's a shame Apple hobbled them to avoid stealing Mac sales. With a Transwarp, SCSI HD, GS/OS and Marinetti, it makes a surprisingly useful little system. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! -- Reb. Nachman ------------- From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Oct 23 11:58:24 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:58:24 -0700 Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: from "Ian King" at Oct 21, 10 02:30:07 pm, Message-ID: Yes, that RK8E will be repaired to working condition - which task is made easier by the fact that I now have a working example. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > >=20 > > Yes. :-) =20 > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is = > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component fro= > m machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately catalogued= > with a note in the record stating that it was originally part of machine A= OK, that makes sense... I think, acutally, I wouid tie little tags to the PCB handles indicating where they'd come from, and leave a note inside 'machine A' saying that had been moved to 'machine B'. Keeping records is essential, but they can get lost. The more places the information is recorded the better. > . =20 > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an RK05= > drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that machine w= > ith another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. =20 Incidnetally, It will take some finding, but I might have a spare RK8E board set. I certainly don't have a spare drive cable for it, though... Abd hope you're planning on repairing that RK05 :-) > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and restora= > tion. -- Ian=20 True enough. For my own machines I always err on the side of restoration. As I said the other day, the perpose of a computer is to 'compute', and I have no interest in collecting non-working plastic and metal boxes full of PCBs ;-). -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 23 12:10:49 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:10:49 -0700 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A couple things are missing here. One is the IIc+ (3.5" floppy), and the other is that there are at least two flavors of the IIgs (ROM 1 and ROM 3, hopefully someone can fill in better details on that). I have quite a few Apple II's, but lack a II, IIc+ (had a chance once, but wasn't willing to pay the $$$'s), and a ROM3. Then there is the model of Mac LC with the Apple II card. Maybe this winter I can make some progress on getting an Apple IIe back up and running... Zane At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >He is probably thinking of a II+. There is no such machine as the >IIa. There was, however, the II, II+, IIc, IIe, and the IIgs. > >A true, original II (no plus) is pretty valuable, in that it's the >first of the line, and they're fairly rare. The II+, which has the >exact same case, motherboard (different ROMs), etc - but with a >badge reading "Apple ][ Plus", is a very common machine, but is >generally harder to find than the IIe. > >The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". The platinum >version has a numeric keypad. Both of these machines are EXTREMELY >common - at one point just about every school had forty of these >things. They're worth about ten bucks. > >The IIc is a small, compact machine with a built-in floppy drive. >It's very common as well. > >The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB >keyboard. These are very common too, and usually not worth anything >unless they've got some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a >SCSI controller, or something like that. > >You may, however, have some kind of clone machine - there were lots >- and they usually looked just like the real thing. Those are >interesting to people that are in to that sort of thing. > >The Apple II series was and still is very popular. There are lots of >people out there, such as myself, that still regularly tinker and >hack on these machines, building hardware and writing software. If >you have a good clean working machine, you should have no problem >finding a home for it. Apple II's without school names engraved into >them are nice to find :) > >-Ian -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 12:33:45 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:33:45 -0700 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC31C79.3070501@gmail.com> On 10/23/10 9:00 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". The platinum version has a numeric keypad. Both of these machines are EXTREMELY common - at one point just about every school had forty of these things. They're worth about ten bucks. > Actually there is the IIe, Enhanced IIe, and Platinum. The Enhanced used a 65C02 with a few more instructions and became IIc software compatible. The Platinum was really just an Enhanced IIe with a better case and keypad. If you look in a IIe and see a 65C02 its "Enhanced" even if it doesn't have the sticker on the power light. > The IIc is a small, compact machine with a built-in floppy drive. It's very common as well. Someone mentioned the IIc+ in another post but, there were also several ROM versions of the IIc as well. The later ROM versions allowed the use of unidisk 3.5" drives and changed the way memory expansions worked. > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've got some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or something like that. The ROM 03 Versions sell for a bit and there is a "Woz" signed case version that people like to think is rare but, isn't. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 23 12:34:43 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:34:43 -0400 Subject: Apple IIa References: <201010231647.o9NGlAee010678@floodgap.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Apple IIa >> The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. >> These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've >> got >> some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or >> something like that. > > The GS is my favourite Apple II -- they really are wonderful computers and > it's a shame Apple hobbled them to avoid stealing Mac sales. With a > Transwarp, SCSI HD, GS/OS and Marinetti, it makes a surprisingly useful > little system. > Sure if you spent more then the cost of a mac to get all those upgrades when new. I like my IIgs and have one setup like the one you mentioned without the Marinetti (TCP/IP stack, will try it). Even the base units with RAM expansion are decent for old IIgs games, or Apple II games. I just never wanted the older II's even when offered a II+ locally for free. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 23 12:40:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Oct 23, 10 01:34:43 pm" Message-ID: <201010231740.o9NHeOpR007984@floodgap.com> > > > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. > > > These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless they've > > > got > > > some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or > > > something like that. > > > > The GS is my favourite Apple II -- they really are wonderful computers and > > it's a shame Apple hobbled them to avoid stealing Mac sales. With a > > Transwarp, SCSI HD, GS/OS and Marinetti, it makes a surprisingly useful > > little system. > > Sure if you spent more then the cost of a mac to get all those upgrades when > new. I like my IIgs and have one setup like the one you mentioned without > the Marinetti (TCP/IP stack, will try it). Even the base units with RAM > expansion are decent for old IIgs games, or Apple II games. I just never > wanted the older II's even when offered a II+ locally for free. OMG MY HOBBY IS IMPRACTICAL MY WORLD IS RUINED -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- ;-) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 23 12:42:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <4CC31C79.3070501@gmail.com> from leaknoil at "Oct 23, 10 10:33:45 am" Message-ID: <201010231742.o9NHgFlj008182@floodgap.com> > The ROM 03 Versions sell for a bit and there is a "Woz" signed case > version that people like to think is rare but, isn't. Heck, I'd say the case is more valuable than the computer (marginally). I just took the lid off a Woz and stuck it on my ROM 03. Presto. ROM 03 is much more useful than ROM 00. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 23 13:03:50 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0400 Subject: Apple IIa References: <201010231740.o9NHeOpR007984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Apple IIa >> > > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB >> > > keyboard. >> > > These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless >> > > they've >> > > got >> > > some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI controller, or >> > > something like that. >> > >> > The GS is my favourite Apple II -- they really are wonderful computers >> > and >> > it's a shame Apple hobbled them to avoid stealing Mac sales. With a >> > Transwarp, SCSI HD, GS/OS and Marinetti, it makes a surprisingly useful >> > little system. >> >> Sure if you spent more then the cost of a mac to get all those upgrades >> when >> new. I like my IIgs and have one setup like the one you mentioned without >> the Marinetti (TCP/IP stack, will try it). Even the base units with RAM >> expansion are decent for old IIgs games, or Apple II games. I just never >> wanted the older II's even when offered a II+ locally for free. > > OMG MY HOBBY IS IMPRACTICAL MY WORLD IS RUINED > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The world is not > enough. --------------------------------------------------- > > ;-) > Just saying Apple pretty much killed the IIgs by making it so expensive compared to the mac line when you factor in accessories to speed it up. Yes I seen the smiley face. The IIc+ I think was the last of the II line with a built in CPU accelerator and 3.5" DD floppy drive. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 13:27:30 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 11:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <4CC31C79.3070501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <938673.57968.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/23/10, leaknoil wrote: > Actually there is the IIe, Enhanced IIe, and Platinum. The > Enhanced used a 65C02 with a few more instructions and > became IIc software compatible. The Platinum was really just > an Enhanced IIe with a better case and keypad. If you look > in a IIe and see a 65C02 its "Enhanced" even if it doesn't > have the sticker on the power light. Yup. And a lot of machines were "Enhanced" without the official upgrade - just burn new ROMs and replace the processor. Much cheaper than the Apple upgrade kit. And then there are the other obscure versions of the IIe - the real early ones came in a case with the "velcro" closure just like the II+. Then the various european versions, etc. I didn't intend to post a be-all end-all guide to every II version - just an overview. I also didn't mention the Bell and Howell II+, or the other mainboard revisions of the II+. > The ROM 03 Versions sell for a bit and there is a "Woz" > signed case version that people like to think is rare but, > isn't. And, of course, if you're going for completionist - there is the IIgs upgrade to the IIe. It was a Rom 1 logic board with a replacement lower housing for a IIe that used the IIe's keyboard and plastic case. Also had a replacement badge for the cover to make it say IIgs. :) -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:15:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:15:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 22, 10 10:22:00 pm Message-ID: > > But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' > > becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the > > same production line would have done just as well. > > > > If I was visiting a museum, I would be much more interested to see a > > working example of the sysem (prefereablly running the rogiianl software) > > than to see the machine that was actually used, not operational. > > I think it's fairly safe to say, then, that yours is not a typical > response. My guess would be that most people would be far more Since when have my views on anything been 'typical' :-) > interested in a particular artefact that had had some famous role than > in another, identical one that was never involved in anything > interesting but was in full working order. I think what itcomes down to _for me_ is is there anything special about the 'famous' artefact other than what it was once used for? A commonly quoted example is the pen (typewriter/word processor) used by a famous author. Do you really think his novels/plays/whatever would have been any different if he'd used a different pen? If not (and I storngly suspect that's the case), then there really is nothing amazing aobut that pen. > > E.g. - just as a hypothetical: > > "This is Lord Montgomery's personal tank from the North African > campaign" (cool and interesting) versus "here is a perfectly working > model FYQZ37-B-142/Z type C tank that has never been to war and was > never deployed on active service". If there was nothign unusual about Lord Montgomery's tank, then I have to say I'd prefer the latter. But if the former was modified, had different weapmns, or a different aiming system, or ... then that makes it interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 15:03:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:03:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <20101022163745.A25454@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 10 04:55:29 pm Message-ID: > > [1] As I understand it, if you acqure an HP 9826 computer system with a > > printer and a plotter, you might label them : > > 2010.53.001 (Processor unit) > > 2010.53.002 (Printer) > > 2010.53.003 (Plotter) > > Maybe then 2010.53.001A (RS222 interface card in the processor unit), > > 2010.53.001B (parallel interface card in the processor unt), 2010.53.003A > > (HPIB interface PCB in the plotter). > > But what then do yoy do about an optional firmware ROM on the RS232 > > interface? > > 2010.53.001A.1 Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not just a number for each artefact starting at 1? > > But what i don't 'get' is why a stock machine is somehow 'special' > > becuase it was used for a particular task, when any other machine off the > > same production line would have done just as well. > > Such as Hilton and Burr's dueling pistols? > The Hasselblad that went to the moon? Is there anything particularly special about either of those? In the case of the 'blad was it modified in any way? Say different lubricants to operate in a vacuum? Or modified controls so it could be operated by gloved hands? Or??? If so, then it becomes interesting because of the modifications. But a stock item is, to me, just that, no matter what it was once used for. > Your primary interest is the technology. > There are OTHER people where the primary interest might only be the > history. I don;t see why those are mutually exclusive. > Somewhere, there might even be somebody who would treasure the first clone > that Dell assembled. Dude! You're getting a POS. ^^^ PERQ Operting System? I already have it. (Sorry, could NOT resist...) > > > > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > > > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > > Hmm.. I don't think I am terribly happy about that. I would want to open > > up every machine as it was being catalogued and recurd all the intenral > > PCBs, what options are installed, and so on. > > Howzbout the date codes of each chip? Only if chips of different dats codes somehow affected the operation of the machine. The point is that I can think of countless examples where machines look identical from the outside but are quite differnet inside. Does that 'PRRQ 1' have a 4K or 16K WCS processor? Does that HP9836C have a CPU/RAM board or a CPU/MMU board? What SPCs are i ntaht PDP11/34? Does that IBM 5150 have a 16K/64K Planar or a 64K/256K one? > > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how > interesting/important that item is. How can you possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later turn out to be? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 15:11:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:11:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 22, 10 08:32:39 pm Message-ID: > Seems to me you need to have an expert (of that particular companies > systems) at the museum to know what to look for to catalog. I would certainly agree with that. Now without wisshing to start _another_ flamewar, I would suggest that a lot of people cataloguing exhibits fore musuems are _not_ computer experts.. Hence some of my earlier comments. Somebody else said that cataloguing properly was expensive. I would argue that the main 'cost' is time -- the actual materials needed are minimal. What you need is an knowledgable person to check over every machine, record the options/variants, etc. But hang on a second. Surely evey newly acquired machine should ne opened up and inspected anyway/ You want to make sure it doesn't suffer unnecessary deterioration. For example, mybe there's an internal backup battery. It sould at least be disconnected so it doesn't go into deep discharge. PErhaps it should be removed, packed in a leakproof container, labelled, and kept separately. Many of us have seen the damage that a leaking PCB-mounted battery can cause :-(. And to be honest, if you're going to do that, it doesn't take much more time or knowledge to note down what options are in the machine. -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Oct 23 15:29:56 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:29:56 +0100 Subject: lilith computer by wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44C76434-5C14-42C8-BA42-03DF71C24EB6@microspot.co.uk> > From: Simon Fryer >>> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it >>> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. >> >> Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder >> how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know >> I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English-Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top Thank you very much for the warning. I would have been very annoyed if I bought it and discovered the only information on the 1301 was mainly what I had written myself on Wikipedia. I knew it had been copied onto other web site but at least they were free. Every now and again I do a search on ICT 1301 and the number of hits keeps expanding. A few real gems get added sometimes and a lot of stuff about Info & Comms Technology (hence ICT) which happens to have 1301 on the page but almost every time there is a new web site or two with yet another copy of my words. Why do they bother? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Oct 23 15:03:49 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:03:49 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Charlie Carothers > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. Indeed but when was the machine which is working first? The 'Mini' car was first sold in 1959 but some are older than others, indeed a car of the same name is still in production. I'm now after the oldest ten working stored program computers. I'd also be interested in the oldest working stored program computers with core memory. Thank you very much for your efforts. > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. That is a great find. It even includes the first machine I ever wrote a program for, the IBM 7094 (in Fortran IV using the Purdue University Fast Fortran Translator). I too will have to crawl around the tree and hopefully learn more about the early IBM machines. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 23 15:44:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101023132831.V57720@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the > heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why > it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are needed. > And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not > just a number for each artefact starting at 1? It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of acquisition. But the bean-counters care. > > Such as Hilton and Burr's dueling pistols? > > The Hasselblad that went to the moon? > Is there anything particularly special about either of those? > In the case of the 'blad was it modified in any way? Say different > lubricants to operate in a vacuum? Or modified controls so it could be > operated by gloved hands? Or??? If so, then it becomes interesting > because of the modifications. But a stock item is, to me, just that, no > matter what it was once used for. > > Your primary interest is the technology. > > There are OTHER people where the primary interest might only be the > > history. > I don;t see why those are mutually exclusive. Not "exclusive", but a different attitude about what is/isn't important. If you end up with a common/stock item that was once owned by a celebrity, you could sell it on eBay to one of those provenance collectors, and buy several that were not celebrity owned. > > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how > > interesting/important that item is. > How can you possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later > turn out to be? It is a subjective evaluation. One more reason that proper cataloging requires expertise. I'm not sure that I would want to live in a world where DELLs became the most interesting/important computers for collecting. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 23 16:19:22 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:19:22 +0100 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com> <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <019201cb72f7$fa204ae0$ee60e0a0$@ntlworld.com> He sent me a picture and I think it is a IIe (it look like a "c" with a dot in the centre to make it into an "e"). I have suggested that, even if it is common, he should keep it and get it working because old computers are always interesting, no matter how common they are. There are no school names written on this machine that I can see from the pictures. It has two floppy drives. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 23 October 2010 17:39 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Apple IIa > > I have told him there is no such thing as a IIa (unless it is some sort of clone). I > have asked him to check again and I have also asked him for a picture of the > machine. > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > > Sent: 23 October 2010 17:00 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Apple IIa > > > > > > --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > > That is definitely what he said, > > > IIa. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > He is probably thinking of a II+. There is no such machine as the IIa. > There > > was, however, the II, II+, IIc, IIe, and the IIgs. > > > > A true, original II (no plus) is pretty valuable, in that it's the > > first > of the line, > > and they're fairly rare. The II+, which has the exact same case, > motherboard > > (different ROMs), etc - but with a badge reading "Apple ][ Plus", is a > very > > common machine, but is generally harder to find than the IIe. > > > > The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". The platinum > > version > has > > a numeric keypad. Both of these machines are EXTREMELY common - at > one > > point just about every school had forty of these things. They're worth > about > > ten bucks. > > > > The IIc is a small, compact machine with a built-in floppy drive. It's > very > > common as well. > > > > The IIgs is a 16 bit machine, and is a box with a detached ADB keyboard. > > These are very common too, and usually not worth anything unless > > they've got some third-party upgrades like an accellerator, a SCSI > > controller, or something like that. > > > > You may, however, have some kind of clone machine - there were lots - > > and they usually looked just like the real thing. Those are > > interesting to > people > > that are in to that sort of thing. > > > > The Apple II series was and still is very popular. There are lots of > people out > > there, such as myself, that still regularly tinker and hack on these > machines, > > building hardware and writing software. If you have a good clean > > working machine, you should have no problem finding a home for it. > > Apple II's without school names engraved into them are nice to find :) > > > > -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 23 16:26:38 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 14:26:38 -0700 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com>, <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > I have told him there is no such thing as a IIa (unless it is some sort of > clone). I have asked him to check again and I have also asked him for a > picture of the machine. > Hi Rob My money is on the IIe. I just went in and checked mine. One could easily mistake the stylized e of the IIe for an a. I've even seen IIes listed on ebay as IIas. The value with drives and no broken keys is usually around $35 to $45. higher if working with extra RAM. If it had some particularly interesting boards it might be worth more. As an example, a Swyftcard alone might be worth a couple hundred or so. Even if it is not working and not of great value, he should find a home for it. Just because it has no high value, it is still a clasic machine. Dwight From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 23 18:17:14 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 00:17:14 +0100 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: References: <019001cb72c8$a5b26a30$f1173e90$@ntlworld.com>, <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <019101cb72d0$c5d07c50$517174f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01a501cb7308$74be43f0$5e3acbd0$@ntlworld.com> > Hi Rob > My money is on the IIe. I just went in and checked mine. One could easily > mistake the stylized e of the IIe for an a. I've even seen IIes listed on ebay as > IIas. Indeed this is what seems to have happened. He sent me pictures and it looked like an e to me. > The value with drives and no broken keys is usually around $35 to $45. > higher if working with extra RAM. > If it had some particularly interesting boards it might be worth more. > As an example, a Swyftcard alone might be worth a couple hundred or so. > Even if it is not working and not of great value, he should find a home for it. > Just because it has no high value, it is still a clasic machine. > Dwight > = Right. I have suggested he keep it and get it working, regardless of value. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 23 21:32:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:32:28 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CC3384C.11522.1F2BD10@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2010 at 21:03, Roger Holmes wrote: > That is a great find. It even includes the first machine I ever wrote > a program for, the IBM 7094 (in Fortran IV using the Purdue University > Fast Fortran Translator). I don't know if I'd confess to using PUFFT :). ISTR that you could just about dump a deck of cards scavenged from the trash into it and get a program that ran. Was that before they got the CDC 6500? I know at one point they had a pair of 7094s working as I/O processors and PUFFT compilers/interpreters. And what, a 1401? --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Sat Oct 23 23:24:31 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 06:24:31 +0200 Subject: Specific maindec for the PDP-8/L ? In-Reply-To: <4CC1D67C.302@bluewin.ch> References: <4CC1D67C.302@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4CC3B4FF.20004@hachti.de> Hi Jos, On 22.10.2010 20:22, Jos Dreesen wrote: > There are a lot of maindec ppt images on the net, but I fail to find 8/L > specific ones. > Or could I just use the 8/I maindec to check out the 8/l core stack, > since they share the same stack ? Yes, use the 8/I specific tests - or whatever you find. I've heard about Klemens Krause having written his own test for a 4K system that relocates and completely tests the 4K without having more memory in the system. See in this book: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8l/DEC-8L-HR1B-D_8LmaintVol1.pdf On page 5-2 there's the official 8/l tests list - it's the 8/i stuff! BTW it's nice to hear that you're testing the memory :P Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 07:53:00 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:53:00 +0200 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 08:06:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:06:26 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere near classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here. > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html This, on the other hand, is the fairly old S/390 G1. Nice machines, but getting a bit long in the tooth. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Oct 24 09:11:06 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:11:06 -0500 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the original purchaser and only on the specific machine and configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other party is unlicensed and illegal. IBM vigorously prosecutes these, so all machines sold on eBay will missing the LIC and therefore inoperable. If you are somehow able to obtain one with the LIC intact you are pirating a several million dollar product. The fines will not be pretty, assuming you don't do years instead. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 24 09:44:08 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:44:08 +0200 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In appeareance it's damaged, isn't so ? -- Sergio http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja 2010/10/24 St?phane Tsacas > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html > > -- > Stephane > http://updatedoften.blogspot.com > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 09:51:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC447DA.6050000@neurotica.com> The front door is pretty banged up, yes. This is a big, very thick, empty door that is intended as a not-easily-blockable air intake, more ductwork than door. These are made of relatively thin sheet metal so they're easily damaged, especially by warehouse grunts who are under the impression that any computer that's not a Windows PC (rapidly becoming "Windows laptop") is "old garbage" and therefore worthless, and they bang them around. -Dave On 10/24/10 10:44 AM, SPC wrote: > In appeareance it's damaged, isn't so ? > > -- > Sergio > http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja > > 2010/10/24 St?phane Tsacas > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> >> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html >> >> -- >> Stephane >> http://updatedoften.blogspot.com >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 09:57:45 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:57:45 +0100 Subject: Moving House - Need to downsize In-Reply-To: <014f01cb7156$10099260$301cb720$@ntlworld.com> References: <014f01cb7156$10099260$301cb720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 21 October 2010 20:27, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would be interested in the VAXstation 4000/90 and I am on the lookout for > DSSI drives to put in a 3400 and a 4000-200, but it sounds like you are > talking about external cabinets and I am not sure I have space for these > (how big are they?). I wouldn't mind a spare VT220 as well. I was also given > a Sun Ultra 5 a little while back and I think I need a special keyboard and > mouse combination, would you have one of these? > > I live in Manchester, we would need to work something out. > > Regards > > Rob > I am going through them now, although I'm afraid you where pipped at the post on the 4000/90. Sridhar has expressed an interest in the drives but I think shipping to the US might be a bit much. I will let you know. I definitly have a mouse for the Ultra 5, but prob not a keyboard. Dan From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 24 10:14:29 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:14:29 +0200 Subject: SGI Origin2000 Message-ID: Not mine, but I should like. But sadly, I can't take charge of this monster now. Hope that someone could approach it better. http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250712182525&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT -- Sergio http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja From jtp at chinalake.com Sun Oct 24 10:25:24 2010 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:25:24 -0400 Subject: AS/400e 9401-150 server still needs a home - metro west Boston, MA Message-ID: <4CC44FE4.4060009@chinalake.com> Why yes, this is a repost from a few months ago. A few contacts, but no one has come through. I will recycle it in a week if there is no firm commitment to collect--gotta go. ------------------------------ Not really classic in this model, however: I have an AS/400e 9401-150 server and associated hardwarethat needs a new home. I obtained it last year and do not have the bandwidth to do anything with it. I have not powered the server up, but I was told itworks. The front appears to have taken a hit in thelower left (dented grate behind and screw mountsnapped--reglued) and the face shows some scrapes. One thin horizontal molding (separator) is broken, and can be glued. Theback half-round cover is missing. I believe the previous owner obtained it 2nd hand for dev work. 2-32 meg memmodules, 2-4.x gig drives (59H7001) se scsi, CD, QIC 4/8 DL SLR5 tape drive, 90H9241 twinax card. IBM 3477 InfoWindow terminal w/ 122 key kb. Found that thepower button needs to be pressed down a bit when released (for ON) to have it catch. IBM 3197 terminal sans keyboard--never got it. Term powers up with 0A00 and 'k' on the bottom center. Two lexmark 4028 AS1 laser printers. I have a note onone from last year that the pickup roller is toast.The other says OK, but I will check again. Box of cables. Mostly T adapters or 9 and 15 pinD-subs, one twinax cable, one MAU (really), two terms, one8-port fan-out (21F5093), and second 8-port fanout (mod# ?),plus a few baluns and odd pieces. There are plenty ofTs, but you will probably need more cable to hook up more than one or two devices. A few misc docs. CD/Floppies: V4 OS, Client Access for 95/NT, LanStreamer, PCI diags Images:www.flickr.com/photos/31439100 at N05/sets/72157624713623016/ I don't want to part it out if I can help it--goes as onegroup. I'll keep the printer with the toasted roller forparts if it isn't wanted. Metro-west Boston, MA.Pick-up, or I'll deliver inside the 495 area on myschedule. I will store for a while, if you are really going to collect it, or relay it. --Jimjtp at chinalake.com From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 24 10:29:53 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:29:53 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:11:06 -0500, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St+?phane Tsacas wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> >> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html >Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the original purchaser and only on the specific machine and configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other party is unlicensed and illegal. Unless licensing arangements are made in advance by the origional owner! I have a client with an old AS400 (I will call System 1) who paid the end of lease buyout along with an additional licensing fee to keep their old system's licensing intact and "bound to the machine" when they upgraded to a new and much bigger system. The origional plan was to sell it to a third pary "friend in the businesss" after it served a few more years duity as part of a disaster recovery plan, and was moed to the data center of a second party. Years latter the third party no longer wants/needs it so there has been talk of putting it on eBay. In its case it is only the current application and associated data that needs to be scrubed before it moves on, not the OS. I agree these exceptions are rare, but they do exsist. All and Never are both constants not to be used lightly :) The client in question has done this with their last 3 AS400's all purchased new from IBM. I worked with leasing companies back in the System 370 days as a 3rd pary CE, there was quite a bit of transfering going on, the company I worked for specialized in it. Concidering the damage on this system I would expect this system to be Insurance Scrap rescued just this side of a crusher with no papers, the new owner would be prohibited from unlicensed comercial use. Fair use should premit a collector to play with it for their personal use. If it does in fact still run, then it is of interest to a number of collectors as a persional toy. Send the sheetmetal to a bodyshop and let them Bondo it up, or wait for a clean cabnet to come along. If they can rebuild a rusted wreck and made it look like new again, cleaning that rack and door up will be a piece of cake. It just takes TLC or a lot of money :) The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 10:37:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:37:02 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC4529E.7060807@neurotica.com> On 10/24/10 11:29 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > If it does in fact still run, then it is of interest to a number of collectors as a persional toy. Send the sheetmetal to a > bodyshop and let them Bondo it up, or wait for a clean cabnet to come along. If they can rebuild a rusted wreck > and made it look like new again, cleaning that rack and door up will be a piece of cake. It just takes TLC or a lot > of money :) It's almost definitely runnable; these machines are practically indestructible. This particular machine weighs about a ton, pulls many kilowatts, and is relatively modern in mainframe terms. Not exactly "collector" or "personal toy" material. An S/390 G1, sure...but not a z900, at least not for another ten years or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Oct 24 10:55:23 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:23 -0500 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> On Oct 24, 2010, at 10:29 AM, "Bob Bradlee" wrote: > Fair use should > premit a collector to play with it for their personal use. I don't know where you got this idea. There is no such thing as Fair Use as far as software licenses are concerned. IBM has gone after people for running zOS on the Hercules emulator, they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 24 11:14:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:14:43 -0700 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4CC45B73.7040105@brouhaha.com> Daniel Seagraves wrote: > I don't know where you got this idea. There is no such thing as Fair Use as far as software licenses are concerned. How can you say that with such absolute certainty? I haven't found anything in the actual copyright law that states that fair use does not apply to software. Is there some case law in this area? > IBM has gone after people for running zOS on the Hercules emulator, Aside from the noises they made about TurboHercules, are you saying that they've actually sued anyone? Got a docket number? Presumably they haven't "gone after people" for running Linux on Hercules, so it seems unlikely that they would go after someone for running Linux on a z900. We can't presume to know what an eBay buyer would run on it. I don't know what IBM's policy for z900 Licensed Internal Code is. On early AS/400 machines it was licensed to the original purchaser, but on later ones and the iSeries, etc., I'm told that it is licensed for use on the specific machine. > they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. > I'll admit that I'm not very expert on such things, so I could be mistaken, but this looks to be an 8 year old model to me, not one that "you can still buy new". Eric From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 24 11:20:49 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:20:49 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <396087.63968.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:55:23 -0500, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Oct 24, 2010, at 10:29 AM, "Bob Bradlee" wrote: >> Fair use should >> premit a collector to play with it for their personal use. >I don't know where you got this idea. There is no such thing as Fair Use as far as software licenses are concerned. IBM has gone after people for running zOS on the Hercules emulator, they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. >> Then what we have here is a full set of spare parts capable of running self diagnostics, and not a running System as implied. The running of zOS on the Hercules emulator was an easy call, it was a cloned enviroment, an easy copy or distribution violation, Just not the definitive case to prove there is no fairuse of software. I know all to well how sensitive IBM is to what is and is not fairuse when it comes to using their logos. It will be interesting to see if it sells ... It may have just become collectible and be tracked as the first of its kind outside IBM's control to be sold as running hardware on eBay. One never knows what will make an IBMcollectable :) The other Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 24 11:47:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:47:54 -0700 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4CC400CA.4753.DF01D@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2010 at 10:55, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 24, 2010, at 10:29 AM, "Bob Bradlee" > wrote: > > > Fair use should > > premit a collector to play with it for their personal use. > > I don't know where you got this idea. There is no such thing as Fair > Use as far as software licenses are concerned. Indeed, "Fair Use" as currently interpreted by US Courts is extremely narrow, mostly limited to excerpting small parts of works for educational purposes. In fact, there's been a very recent decision that one may not sell software that one has legally acquired if the license forbids sale to a third party. ISTR that the case involved Autodesk and a vendor selling old copies of AutoCAD after the original owners had upgraded. I don't know the appeal status of this last case; but a little web searching will surely turn up more. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 12:18:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:49 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <396087.63968.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <396087.63968.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC46A79.3090101@neurotica.com> On 10/24/10 12:20 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It will be interesting to see if it sells ... They always do. Have you guys really not seen recent IBM mainframes sell on eBay before? They come up (and sell) maybe half a dozen times per year. I personally have two sitting here, and I'm not even a hardcore mainframer. > It may have just become collectible and be tracked as the first of its kind outside IBM's control to be sold as > running hardware on eBay. One never knows what will make an IBMcollectable :) Certainly not the first, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 12:18:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:53 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC45B73.7040105@brouhaha.com> References: <990069.46166.qm@smtp125.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6E7C952B-5219-46CA-892A-D08176B3C031@lunar-tokyo.net> <4CC45B73.7040105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC46A7D.2060903@neurotica.com> On 10/24/10 12:14 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Presumably they haven't "gone after people" for running Linux on > Hercules, so it seems unlikely that they would go after someone for > running Linux on a z900. We can't presume to know what an eBay buyer > would run on it. You still need the LIC to run Linux, and the LIC is what's tightly controlled. One can get operating systems pretty easily, but not LIC images. >> they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a >> current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, >> this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. > > I'll admit that I'm not very expert on such things, so I could be > mistaken, but this looks to be an 8 year old model to me, not one that > "you can still buy new". The z900 was withdrawn from marketing three or four years ago, which makes them pretty much "last years' model" in the mainframe world. They're still supported. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 24 13:25:29 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:25:29 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010241425.30204.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > > > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 > > 0G1.html > > Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal > for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the > LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the > original purchaser and only on the specific machine and > configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other > party is unlicensed and illegal. This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone else. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 13:22:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:22:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <20101023132831.V57720@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 23, 10 01:44:46 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the > > heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why > > it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. > > A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are > needed. That's _exactly_ my point. Having atbitrary limits may cause problems later on. > > > And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not > > just a number for each artefact starting at 1? > > It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of > acquisition. But the bean-counters care. Ah no, you misnderstood me... Presumanbly there is a database of the artefacts in the museum, indexed by the indentification numbers. That database includes more details about the particular object, things like (I would hope), options, serial number (s), version, etc. All we've been discussing. I see no reason why the date of acquisition (full date, not just the year), source (maybe 'anonymous donor' :-)), and the like should not be stored there as well. It's far better to store too much information than too little. But what I am wondering is why the year of acquisition should be a field in the indentifier. > Not "exclusive", but a different attitude about what is/isn't important. > > If you end up with a common/stock item that was once owned by a celebrity, > you could sell it on eBay to one of those provenance collectors, and buy > several that were not celebrity owned. As an aside, maybe in principle, but not always in practice... Suppose I did have an HP9820 (say) that had been used for some famous bit of work. Yes, I could sell it for more than the normal 'going rate' for such a machine. But could I be sure ot be able to buy another one? There's not an infinite supply of old computers, and some people may well not sell _at any price_. You could offer me a million pounds/dollars for a machine in my collection and I would turn you down. And I'll bet there are others like me. > > > > > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how > > > interesting/important that item is. > > How can you possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later > > turn out to be? > > It is a subjective evaluation. One more reason that proper cataloging > requires expertise. Agreed... I feel you should err on the side of recording too much information. It's easy to ignroe it later ;-) > > I'm not sure that I would want to live in a world where DELLs became the > most interesting/important computers for collecting. Nor would I, and for the record I don't consider DELLs or other PC clones to be the machines I want to collect. That doesn't mean I think that nobody should collect them. Or that the PC clone has not had a very significant impact on computing (not necessarily for the better :-)). -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 24 13:33:42 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:33:42 -0400 Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? Message-ID: <4CC47C06.5020000@heeltoe.com> I have a low-level pdp-11 question... I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user & supervisor mode. My read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write the "mode" bits of the PSW. (or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to *clear* any mode bits from user space) I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should under simh and I thought I'd ask what others think... Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even when (I claim) it should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I can/will. Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful when run on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... (which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except by using the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual implies that it *is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and imply using the mmu. diagnostic follows: .TITLE test17 .ASECT PSW=177776 ;processor status word .=34 .word 200 .word 0007 .=200 mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here rti .=500 clr @#PSW ;kernel mode mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode nop clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode nop halt From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 13:47:49 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:47:49 +0200 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> References: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 15:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> >> > > That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere near > classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here. > > See also http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 ;-) -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 14:45:39 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:39 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC48CE3.7050508@gmail.com> St?phane Tsacas wrote: > See also > http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 > ;-) *boioioioioioioing!!* Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 14:49:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:49:27 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC48CE3.7050508@gmail.com> References: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> <4CC48CE3.7050508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC48DC7.9070705@neurotica.com> On 10/24/10 3:45 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> See also >> http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 >> >> ;-) > > *boioioioioioioing!!* Right there with you on that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 22 12:10:21 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:10:21 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: >Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. >A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing >any arbitrary cell needs the same time. . That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc) categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape (sequential). So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same time. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William Donzelli) > 2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt) > 3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Ian King) > 4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS) > 5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan Williams) > 6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow) > 7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti) > 8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard) > 9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck Guzis) > 10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Rich Alderson) > 11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman) > 12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Al Kossow) > 13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis) > 15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus Pihlgren) > 16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren) > 17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) > 18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Charlie Carothers) > 19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin) > 20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Jochen Kunz) > 21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Christian Corti) > 22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) (Roger Holmes) > 23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer) > 24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow) > 25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? > > Not me. > > I probably have enough of the modules that I could build one, however. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100 > From: "Rob Jarratt" > Subject: RE: the new manx is live > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > , "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Only'" > > Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$@ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to > classiccmp.org > > (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 ms > > 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > Works OK for me, here is my tracert: > > 1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER [192.168.0.1] > 2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1 > 3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net > [80.5.1 > 65.13] > 4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net > [195. > 182.180.37] > 5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.175.1] > 6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253 > .187.178] > 7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.64.21] > 8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.159.30] > 9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253. > 185.81] > 10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.14.133] > 11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.51.230] > 12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .40.234] > 13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .6.178] > 14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54.27. > 30] > 15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms > vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [ > 38.20.47.170] > 16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10 > 17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com [208.82.151.42] > 18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22] > 19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com [208.75.82.50] > 20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms 209-145-130-66.accessus.net > [209.145.130.66] > 21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.17] > > Regards > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700 > From: Ian King > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > > > > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > > > n00b in this respect. > > > > > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > > > > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > > > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > > > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > > > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > > > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > > > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them > > associated > > > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > > > and piece numbers. > > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > > here? > > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > > > Yes. :-) > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component > from machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately > catalogued with a note in the record stating that it was originally part > of machine A. > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an > RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that > machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. > > That would not be appropriate for a machine that is historically > significant in its particular configuration (for example, our PDP-12), but > that's a hard argument to make for the vast majority of PDP-8/e's. And > given the records we keep, we could restore the accession to its original > configuration if needed. > > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and > restoration. -- Ian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400 > From: "MikeS" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > > all of the software for it. > ---- > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and > the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) > > mike > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100 > From: Dan Williams > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > >> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive > >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > >> I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I > >> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and > >> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > > > The latter would be interesting. > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > Dan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote: > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > > From: Al Kossow > > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > >> That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > >> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > >> all of the software for it. > > ---- > > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI > and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;- > ) > > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > couple of weeks ago. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400 > From: Dan Roganti > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > > > > > > very nice ! > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article , > Dan Roganti writes: > > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > This first round was just to reproduce the existing manx. > > Next up is to add users and roles to provide for community additions. > > Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code base has been > developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > > couple of weeks ago. > > Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my hellbox and the > blue manual that gives the schematics for the system. But no > firmware listing for the monitor... > > BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on eBay offering the > INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the each? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > >> and piece numbers. > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > here? > > I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. > > You donate items to a museum, let's say for simplicity's sake a horse shoe > and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups and matching saucers, > pot, sugar and creamer. > > You do this in 2010. That's the first field of the accession numbers. > > The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the museum this year. > These numbers will be the second fields of the respective accession > numbers. > > The horse shoe will receive accession number 2010.075.001, and be marked > as 2010.75.1 > > The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar, 2010.076.002; the creamer, > 2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair, 2010.076.004A and > 2010.076.004B; > and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer will be the matching > decoration on each pair. > > You could also simply number each piece individually, but then you lose > information. > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose > of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be > very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will > have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with > the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers > may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the > understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries > to please everyone in the know about a topic--there are art museums which > I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit over and over, for > example.) Neither policy is "broken", they simply differ. > > Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea services. My personal > preference would be to replicate the manufacturer's bill of materials, > assigning accession numbers at each level down to the circuit boards (or > equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules, but those don't > crop up in the time frame in which we have specialized). Since the > catalog here was set up by someone else several years before I joined > the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in place--we're not in > a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my way. > > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, > etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > > It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would really rather be > restoring a system to working condition, but without a catalog, you will > very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and your reason for being > a museum. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400 > From: Charles Dickman > Subject: Re: HTL > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? > > > > Why do you ask? > > I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for. > > -chuck > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier > > But necessary. > > We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in > them, > for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions > that > fact. > > It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that should be in an > accessioned > artifact is missing, and the condition. > > It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection. > > One of the requirements for museum accreditation is having a significant > portion of your collection cataloged. > > CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We have just under 75,000 > items > visible in the on-line data base > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > is working as expected. > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > is working as expected. > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > should spin the tape a bit). > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden and unless you find > someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I wouldn't mind paying for it. > Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is this thing? > > /P > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is a semiuseful tool: > > http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://manx.classiccmp.org/ > > Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many thanks. > > /Pontus > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org > > traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte > packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 > > ms 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500 > From: Nick Allen > Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Al and everyone else, > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a > PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto diskpacks up to > bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please provide the steps > on how to do so? > > If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the disk packs have valid > data on them, this would be yet another step completed in getting the > alto up and running =) > > Thanks! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500 > From: Charlie Carothers > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> From: Christian Corti > >> > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > >>> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which > don't > >>> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed > in > >>> the late 1950s). > >> > >> Then you've been told wrong. > >> Several examples: > >> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > >> yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > >> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > >> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > >> still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > >> All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > >> southern Germany. > >> > >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not > counting > >>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway > I'm > >>> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > >>> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless > it > >>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > >> > >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > >> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. > > > > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. > > > > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? > > > > If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version > became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my > machine went live either. > > > > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: > > > > 1958, LGP-30 > > 1958, Zuse Z22 > > Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with > random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate > Access Store by ICT). > > > > Thanks again. > > > > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I > catch up with my e-mails. > > > > > > > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. > > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 > From: "r.stricklin" > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > It could be, depending on firmware. > > ok > bear > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200 > From: Jochen Kunz > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 > Roger Holmes wrote: > > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine > > with random access program and data storage. > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > just with a bit lattency... > > I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is operated now. When it > moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours with demonstrations > done by the former maintainers of the machine. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > > just with a bit lattency... > > Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. A random access > storage is defined by the fact that addressing any arbitrary cell needs > the same time. > But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too, called > "Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast memory". > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes > Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > > > > > And we have a winner!! > > > > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate > the > > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world > to > > do so > > > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > > ? > > > No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of > the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost > every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest > original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a > list of the top ten not just the top one. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100 > From: Simon Fryer > Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it > >> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. > > > > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder > > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know > > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English- > Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top > > >> Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the > >> toilet. > > > > And for other uses in that location? > > The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay in an emergency. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Al and everyone else, > > > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC > computer > > I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies sectors across through a > PC parallel port. > > Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I normally supplied a > couple of them > with the machines that came from me, and could tell pretty quickly if they > need to be copied. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > > is working as expected. > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > > Is this normal? > > > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > > should spin the tape a bit). > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Thanks Chuck > I was afraid of that. That was my recollection > of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the motor > doesn't spin. > As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded > with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would > unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30 > minute job to spool it back on. > I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what is up. > The fact that I see the head moving gives me confidence > that it is most likely the motor drive circuit. > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > Dwight > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > > 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as > well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > ************************************** From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Oct 22 14:11:02 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:11:02 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) In-Reply-To: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org> References: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CC1E1C6.9050709@comcast.net> Sure, I will upload the photos shortly. Did you have to build a custom cable/adapter from Diablo to the Parallel port on the PC? Did you use any a custom drive, utility, os on the PC side? Just looking to validate somehow that my Diablo Drive is fully functioning, and this direction seems to be the best bet until I get the Alto working. From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Oct 22 20:35:54 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:35:54 -0500 Subject: FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs Message-ID: <4CC23BFA.3050409@comcast.net> Byte magazines pretty much the complete 1975-1977 years! Kilobaud magazines: Year 1977 Dr Dobb's: Years 1977-79 Sun-2 technical overview documentation Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs Mark 8 Minicomputer build plans from Radio Electronics magazine: Here is the link to my seller profile (will display all current auctions): http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1 Trying to clear room in the condo, and raise funds to repair the Alto/IMSAIs/Altairs! From tingox at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 21:09:42 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:09:42 +0200 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article > <6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%252BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > Seems there are some network problems somewhere between me and manx. I can't rerach bitsavers.org either: tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ ping bitsavers.org PING bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17) 56(84) bytes of data. >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=50 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=53 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=54 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=55 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=56 Packet filtered ^C --- bitsavers.org ping statistics --- 91 packets transmitted, 0 received, +5 errors, 100% packet loss, time 90127ms tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 * * * 2 * * * 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * * 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * * * 16 * * * 17 * * * 18 * * * 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ from my gateway / firewall: tingo at kg-omni1$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 46.484 ms 98.823 ms 99.785 ms 2 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 14.068 ms 14.298 ms 13.788 ms 3 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 14.536 ms 15.015 ms 14.369 ms 4 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 14.258 ms 18.107 ms 14.183 ms 5 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 14.555 ms 14.674 ms 14.876 ms 6 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 27.834 ms 28.522 ms 27.609 ms 7 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 33.525 ms 33.542 ms 33.596 ms 8 213.248.65.121 (213.248.65.121) 43.259 ms 43.400 ms ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.117) 42.396 ms 9 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.698 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.105) 43.963 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.340 ms 10 cogent-ic-140549-ffm-b12.c.telia.net (213.248.92.142) 43.399 ms 43.176 ms 42.901 ms 11 te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 39.443 ms te0-2-0-6.ccr21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.237) 134.206 ms te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 40.854 ms 12 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 133.907 ms te0-1-0-4.ccr21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.190) 146.549 ms 146.957 ms 13 te0-0-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.154) 144.096 ms 146.334 ms 145.755 ms 14 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 148.954 ms 149.120 ms 149.191 ms 15 vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 159.651 ms 159.613 ms 157.883 ms 16 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 151.954 ms 153.009 ms 177.673 ms 17 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 152.974 ms 153.659 ms 153.212 ms 18 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 152.006 ms 151.510 ms 150.509 ms 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * 31 * * * 32 * * * 33 * * * 34 * * * 35 * * * 36 * * * 37 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 667.077 ms !X * 38 * * * 39 * * * 40 * * * 41 * * * 42 * * * 43 * * * 44 * * * 45 * * * 46 * * * 47 * * * 48 * * * 49 * * * 50 * * * 51 * * * 52 * * * 53 * * * 54 * * * 55 * * * 56 * * * 57 * * * 58 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 152.356 ms !X * 59 * * * 60 * * * 61 * * * 62 * * * 63 * * * 64 * * * tingo at kg-omni1$ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From wgungfu at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 12:40:43 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:40:43 -0500 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: References: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". It comes in more than that. There's also the IIe enhanced model (pre-platinum), and you'll also find IIGS upgrade versions out there. Marty From jonnosan at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 03:54:39 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:54:39 +1100 Subject: 8008 undocumented opcodes? Message-ID: There are a couple of gaps in the documented opcodes for the 8008, namely: 0x22, 0x2a, 0x32,0x38,0x39,0x3a Is the behavior of the 8008 CPU when executing any of these bytes described anywhere? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 24 14:32:24 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:32:24 -0700 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: <201010241425.30204.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010241425.30204.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4CC489C8.3020702@jwsss.com> The LIC for the r/390's and the pc/390's was at one time freely downloadable. It is the OS Licensed material that is not transferable to another entity. The firmware is not a problem. Most of the peripherals have LIC code and you only need to call IBM to get copies if you supply the model number. I have two 3174's that have "LIC" and IBM's support number supplied the code at IBM's cost to fix me up. I have to say that I was impressed with that. I also ordered 3290 support as well as the latest rev of the Token Ring support on 2mb floppies. I also believe that the firmware for the 9370's is not a problem to transfer, just the OS. Linux is not a problem. I will ask a friend who has two of these running what if any issues he has, as he may have transferred a license I don't know about for one of the smaller 390's he has. Based on his use, I would almost (but for that detail) say there is no problem as long as you have the hardware. On 10/24/2010 11:25 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas > wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >>> >>> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 >>> 0G1.html >> Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal >> for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the >> LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the >> original purchaser and only on the specific machine and >> configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other >> party is unlicensed and illegal. > This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that > popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to > transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to > keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to > destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone > else. > > Pat From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 24 18:09:46 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:09:46 -0400 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CC42F52.2050404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201010241909.46295.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 24, 2010, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 15:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > >> > >> > > That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere > > near > > > > classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here. > > See also > http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete > -/330480462152 ;-) That's as non-classic and nearly as interesting as my SGI Altix 4700. :) http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157624868806325/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 18:15:55 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:15:55 -0400 Subject: Apple IIa In-Reply-To: References: <459795.1557.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How rare are the IIc Plus and the Bell & Howell OEM Apple II? I have both, along with an original Apple II that isn't running that well, and a Laser 128. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Oct 24 18:24:27 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:24:27 -0700 Subject: Working IMSAI 8080 system on the VCGM Message-ID: <01f401cb73d2$9c065c20$d4131460$@com> I just posted a nice, working IMSAI 8080 on the VCGM (Item 108335) There is, as always, lots of other stuff to look at there. Cheers! -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From bear at typewritten.org Sun Oct 24 19:22:32 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:22:32 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2010, at 3:04 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I've not actually tried it on my SparcBook yet. > The box I put it in doesn't supply terminator power > and I need to plug several things together. Many Viper 2150S drives, including the Sun OEM ones, do nothing with a newly inserted tape until the device node is opened. ok bear From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:45:58 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:45:58 -0500 Subject: FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs In-Reply-To: <4CC23BFA.3050409@comcast.net> References: <4CC23BFA.3050409@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > Sun-2 technical overview documentation > > Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs I don't know if these have been scanned and put online yet, but if they have not (and they do not sell at auction) I'd be happy to scan them nicely for you before you re-list or do whatever with them. I'm out in the 'burbs so no shipping necessary. -- jht From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 24 23:56:27 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 21:56:27 -0700 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) In-Reply-To: <4CC1E1C6.9050709@comcast.net> References: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org>,<4CC1E1C6.9050709@comcast.net> Message-ID: Nick, I know about this from talking with Al about this subject: the drive does NOT connect to the PC. Al wrote a program that (as he said) runs on the Alto, talks through the utility port on the Alto, and communicates with another program running on a modern PC (actually, ISTR, a Mac). If your Alto isn't running, it won't help you. Take a look at the documentation (available on Bitsavers) regarding the disk interface, if you have any doubts as to the challenge of what you suggest. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nick Allen [nick.allen at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:11 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) Sure, I will upload the photos shortly. Did you have to build a custom cable/adapter from Diablo to the Parallel port on the PC? Did you use any a custom drive, utility, os on the PC side? Just looking to validate somehow that my Diablo Drive is fully functioning, and this direction seems to be the best bet until I get the Alto working. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 25 00:15:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:15:28 -0600 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:09:42 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > Seems there are some network problems somewhere between me and manx. I can't > rerach bitsavers.org either: Good for manx, bad for you. Honestly other than complaining to your ISP, I don't know how to help. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 24 21:03:01 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:03:01 -0700 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC4E555.3090607@jwsss.com> This is not correct. I have this about the LIC code "Licensee may transfer possession of Machine Code and its media to another party only with the transfer of the Machine for which that Machine Code is authorized. In the event of such transfer, Licensee agrees to 1) destroy all of Licensee?s copies of that Machine Code that were not provided by IBM, 2) either provide to the other party all Licensee?s IBM-provided copies of Machine Code or destroy them, 3) provide to the other party a copy of this License Agreement, and 4) provide to the other party all user documentation. IBM licenses the other party to use Machine Code when that party accepts the terms of this License Agreement and is the rightful possessor of the associated Machine." In other words, any 'rightful possessor' can run the LIC, and the LIC has to go with the machine or be destroyed. Otherwise how could all the people who sell used mainframes operate?! The last sentences are my friend's comment. The OS's unless they are Linux may not be transferred which may be what you are thinking. IBM does not have police running around enforcing the rule on the OS images, but any entity with a license is on the hook for a lot of trouble if you don't erase an OS for them if you find it as well. On 10/24/2010 7:11 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> >> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html > Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the original purchaser and only on the specific machine and configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other party is unlicensed and illegal. > > IBM vigorously prosecutes these, so all machines sold on eBay will missing the LIC and therefore inoperable. If you are somehow able to obtain one with the LIC intact you are pirating a several million dollar product. The fines will not be pretty, assuming you don't do years instead. > > > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 06:04:20 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:04:20 -0400 Subject: S-100 PIC/RTC boards available Message-ID: <82FB27288369440E84F4793CD03A5A8B@andrewdesktop> Hi! I have some S-100 PIC/RTC boards left over from an S-100 project. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere for the PCB only. The boards are priority interrupt controller (i8259) and a MM58167 real time clock. There are diagnostics LEDs, configuration jumpers and switches, and battery backup. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PIC &RTC%20Board/My%20PIC%20Board.htm These boards will support CP/M-80 but primarily intended for the S-100 x86 boards (CP/M-86 and FreeDOS) slated for next year. Please contact me if interested. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS there are 11 types of S-100 boards completed (done or available) and another four more in development. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 25 06:07:54 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:07:54 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 23 Oct 2010 at 21:03, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> That is a great find. It even includes the first machine I ever wrote >> a program for, the IBM 7094 (in Fortran IV using the Purdue University >> Fast Fortran Translator). > > I don't know if I'd confess to using PUFFT :). ISTR that you could > just about dump a deck of cards scavenged from the trash into it and > get a program that ran. > > Was that before they got the CDC 6500? I know at one point they had > a pair of 7094s working as I/O processors and PUFFT > compilers/interpreters. And what, a 1401? This was in England in 1969. I was at Dartford Grammar school and for a general studies course we took a bus to Erith Tech one afternoon a week where there were two keypunches and a lecturer who taught us programming in Fortran IV. We punched our cards and a courier took them to Imperial College (of Mines) which is part of the University of London. They were run through the 7094 which ran PUFFT through IBJOB. The following week we would get our cards back with a listing of the program and the results. My first program (calculating Pi) worked first time and I was hooked. Most times the listings would have errors and we'd have to wait another week for our next try. I remember once the compiler printing out "FORMAT misspelled" and continuing the compilation but otherwise I don't think it was particularly user friendly. I was told at the time the 7094 had two separate offline peripheral processors, one which copied cards to tape which was then switched to the 7094 as input and another which took the 7094's output tape and printed it to listing paper. I guess the operators had the job of putting the input cards and output listings together. I happened to live about a mile from the lecturer (Tony Newey) and walking to his house one foggy night, collecting the listings for all the chap from Dartford (which was a single sex school, there being a separate Dartford Grammar school for girls which my elder sister went to). Anyway I remember dividing up the thick listing into ones for all the separate pupils and handing them out the next day so we could all consider what we wanted to change for a while before going back to Erith. One of my friends had a Reliant three wheeler (which you could drive at 16) and we drove over at lunch time once or twice to amend our card decks mid week and resubmit them. Later another friend had a mini and after he overtook going over the crest of a hill I asked what would have happened if someone else was doing the same thing coming the other way. No reply. He was a great mathematician and later worked for Lloyds of London as an insurance risk assessor. He once scored 101% in a maths exam which rather made a mockery of the math's teachers marking scheme. Anyway I don't suppose he was ever so stupid again. The 7094 was taken offline for several months so engineers could replace every single electrolytic capacitor and we were allowed to use the University's main CDC6600 which later got replaced with a 7600. After leaving school I was turned down by Imperial College because I could not pass English Language 'O' level but was accepted by Queen Mary College and again used the 7600 but this time via the college's ICL1905E and later 1904S. Most work was done on the ICL mainframes but it did not support a couple of languages the 7600 did. We also had a CDC 1700 which was used to teach us assembly language. My Fortran experience was not directly helpful at QMC because they taught us Algol 60 in our first six months and most of the rest was maths (cheaper to teach) though I did show one of our lecturers my Fortran knowledge was better than his and earned me a summer holiday job in the college's own programming department doing things like testing the NAG (Nottingham Algorithms Group) library on the 1900s. One evening system time was due to start and I was still running things on the multi access system. As I was staff they did not throw me off but asked if I could finish earlier if they threw all the other users off and stopped the batch stream. I said I didn't know. They said it couldn't hurt and did so. WOW I never knew computers so could be so fast! I was again hooked after doing half an hours work in a minute or two, some of which time was the computer waiting for me to type something. First time I'd ever had a computer waiting for me, of course now its what computers do 99% of the time but back then it was unusual. A few years back in history, before multi access systems, it had been common but that was not my experience. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 25 06:41:02 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:41:02 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: "Tom Gardner" > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: > > > >> Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. > >> A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing > >> any arbitrary cell needs the same time. > > > That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's > and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc) > categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM > RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term > Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time > was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape > (sequential). > > > > So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same > time. > In my ICT 1301 manuals it always uses the term Immediate Access Store (IAS) for the core store, in fact I don't think the word core is used except in the engineers maintenance manuals. My machine also has three drums for storing overlays and data as well as mag tape. The drums also have reserved bands (only writable with an engineers assistance) which hold Initial Orders, the machine's bootstrap, along with three half words which are directly wired into the machine which on pressing a button are forced into the three control registers which then load Initial Orders from drum. P.S. I expect it was an oversight but please don't include the whole digest in your messages. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 08:12:07 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 06:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <937263.66345.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/25/oct-25-1977-happy-birthday-vax-11780-the-first-vax/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 25 08:38:41 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:38:41 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <937263.66345.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <937263.66345.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201010250938.42596.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 25, 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/25/oct-25-1977-happy-birthday-vax-1 > 1780-the-first-vax/ Neat. There's a video of my 11/780 from VCF/MW 4 on the page. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:01:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:01:32 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <937263.66345.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <937263.66345.qm@web113512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/25/oct-25-1977-happy-birthday-vax-11780-the-first-vax/ That is a shit article. Two of the three "number of things that make the VAX 11/780 very important" are not correct. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 09:08:09 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> First of all if you have a problem with the article, please just say so and don't call it "s**t. If you find something inaccurate, say so don't be demeaning. --- On Mon, 10/25/10, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:01 AM > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/25/oct-25-1977-happy-birthday-vax-11780-the-first-vax/ > > That is a shit article. > > Two of the three "number of things that make the VAX 11/780 > very > important" are not correct. > > -- > Will > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 09:25:18 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, William Donzelli wrote: > That is a shit article. > > Two of the three "number of things that make the VAX 11/780 > very > important" are not correct. And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best :) -Ian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 09:28:47 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <889239.13827.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks I will update... When I researched it there was something that stated it was the first... So if my mistake I will update. --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:25 AM > --- On Mon, 10/25/10, William > Donzelli > wrote: > > > That is a shit article. > > > > Two of the three "number of things that make the VAX > 11/780 > > very > > important" are not correct. > > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 > bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in > 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is > the machine that I know the best :) > > -Ian > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 09:29:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:29:28 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC59448.8060705@neurotica.com> >> That is a shit article. >> >> Two of the three "number of things that make the VAX 11/780 very >> important" are not correct. > > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine > is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that > there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best > :) Yeah, good heavens, how about all the IBM 360/370 mainframes?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 25 09:36:53 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:36:53 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > First of all if you have a problem with the article, please just say so and don't call it "s**t. If you find something inaccurate, say so don't be demeaning. Oh, are you the author? Where you have "It introduced the operating system VMS. VMS was and industrial strength", the "and" should be "an". From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 09:41:26 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC59448.8060705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That is a shit article. > >> > >> Two of the three "number of things that make the > VAX 11/780 very > >> important" are not correct. > > > > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first > 32 bit machine > > is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And > I know that > > there were others - but the Prime is the machine that > I know the best > > :) > > Yeah, good heavens, how about all the IBM 360/370 > mainframes?! Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit machine :D Now, I AM sure that IBM had a mainframe that could do a million instructions per second before the VAX came out. DEC might have been the first one to turn it into a statistic with a cute name though. The VAX *may* have been the first 1 MIPS _MINI_ computer. I know that Prime didn't have one until like '79 or '80. -Ian From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 25 09:42:50 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:42:50 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > First of all if you have a problem with the article, please just say so and don't call it "s**t. If you find something inaccurate, say so don't be demeaning. Also, the sentence starting "The VAX instruction set well revered would later on influence" needs restructured. The paragraph after the bullet points has more of the same error. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 09:44:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:44:50 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <889239.13827.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <889239.13827.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC597E2.1030408@neurotica.com> On 10/25/10 10:28 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Thanks I will update... When I researched it there was something that > stated it was the first... So if my mistake I will update. The IBM System/360 family is 32-bit; they were introduced in 1964. I'm sure there were some before that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:45:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:45:43 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > First of all if you have a problem with the article, please just say so and don't call it "s**t. If you find something inaccurate, say so don't be demeaning. If you were the author, then I do apologize for being heavy handed. However, there are some basic facts wrong that could have been very easily corrected before publication by simple fact checks. To not do so is inviting people like me to comment. We, as a whole, flame reporters for getting basic facts wrong, so the rules of this game are pretty well known. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:46:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:46:32 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <23712.94882.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best :) Interdata as well. Likely a few more, too. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 09:52:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:52:05 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC59995.2020204@neurotica.com> On 10/25/10 10:41 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Yeah, good heavens, how about all the IBM 360/370 mainframes?! > > Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 > bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I > don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit > machine :D Well, as we've flamed about before, this is largely a matter of interpretation. The "general consensus", however, is that the S/360 and S/370 families are 32-bit machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:53:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:53:28 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Also, the sentence starting "The VAX instruction set well revered would later on influence" needs restructured. The paragraph after the bullet points has more of the same error. You could say that the designers of the 68000 were influenced by the PDP-11, but I do not think you could say the same thing about the VAX. When the 68000 design was started, the VAX was still well under wraps. I can see no reason why DEC would have let the Motorola guys see the developing architecture. Anyway, in the mid/late 1970s, heavily microcoded very CISCy architectures were pretty much the design route of choice. It was everywhere. It is very difficult to pin down influences. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 09:54:26 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <131951.1672.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> First of all this is a hobby site for me. I created the site after so many people complaining about ebay posts and useless stuff.. The rule being, if you don't like it make your own. I am not a professional writer and this is not a professional site. It is a hobby site. I make no money.. I do this because I like old computing. Second, if I am wrong.. I will admit it, correct it and learn. Thats part of the hobby. Part of me learning about computer history is through the posts. It gives me something to research. If you see something wrong. Just let me know and I will fix it and give you credit. Dave McGuire and Ian Primus already got credit. I am all for constructive criticism and willing to accept being wrong. (you learn more from mistakes) all I ask is for constructive criticism and not a comparison to fecal matter --- On Mon, 10/25/10, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:45 AM > > First of all if you have a > problem with the article, please just say so and don't call > it "s**t. If you find something inaccurate, say so don't be > demeaning. > > If you were the author, then I do apologize for being heavy > handed. > > However, there are some basic facts wrong that could have > been very > easily corrected before publication by simple fact checks. > To not do > so is inviting people like me to comment. > > We, as a whole, flame reporters for getting basic facts > wrong, so the > rules of this game are pretty well known. > > -- > Will > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:58:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:58:28 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/10, Christian Liendo wrote: > First of all if you have a problem with the article, please just say so... Besides the typos and the misplaced smart quotes, this stood out for me: o The VAX instruction set well revered would later on influence Motorola engineers when designing the 68000 CPU, Despite the obvious (to those that know all three relevant architectures and instruction sets) differences between the VAX and 68000 and the similarities between the *PDP-11* and the 68000, it's unlikely there was time for Motorola engineers to be influenced by the VAX. I have held an XC68000 (still owned by my former boss) with a manufacture date in late 1979. I also have preliminary (so marked on each page) data sheets for the 68000 from the same time frame that both point to the design history of the 68000 to be well before the release of the VAX. A quick google of the history of the 68000 reveals that its design origins began around 1976, which is consistent with the product development cycles of the era - three years from inception to shipping silicon. The 68000 is similar enough in instruction set and register architecture (yes, I know there are plenty of differences) that at that same company where my boss had the XC68000, they were able to expedite the porting of the entire PDP-11 codebase to the 68000 with a TECO macro (and the code shows it). They munged the code (literally) through a filter and only had to do some cleanup work around interrupts and such. This is something that is non-trivial for, say, turning 8080 code into 6502 code - it _was_ trivial for PDP-11 -> 68000. So there's my issue with point #2 of the "three important reasons" in the article. Disclaimer: I wasn't "there" in 1977. My first professional exposure to the PDP-11, the VAX, and the 68000 all came in mid-1984, several years after the invention of each, but I did spend quite a bit of time in the late 1970s in my 6502 world, drooling over the 68000 datasheet. The mere idea of moving from three 8-bit registers and zero page indirect references to eight 32-bit data registers and eight 32-bit address registers made my head spin with the possibilities. Six months after my first hands-on experience with the 68000, I bought an Amiga 1000 (the one I brought to VCFmw with the Rejuvenator). -ethan From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:59:15 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:59:15 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: <750155.66438.qm@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:53 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Also, the sentence starting "The VAX instruction set well revered would > later on influence" needs restructured. The paragraph after the bullet > points has more of the same error. > > ah yes, Will can be so honest ;) I think the missing point that hasn't been so well enunciated is the VAX is a >minicomputer< and the IBM 360 is the >mainframe< - quite big difference - perhaps should be specified in the blog. I hope this doesn't break any hearts in the DEC community ;) As far as mini's go, SEL had a 32bitter in '69 http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/computers_mini_products.html Nice job though, Chris =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 10:00:23 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC59995.2020204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <975634.21828.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Yeah, good heavens, how about all the IBM 360/370 > mainframes?! > > > > Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were > *much more* than 32 > > bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something > like that? I > > don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a > straight 32 bit > > machine :D > > Well, as we've flamed about before, this is largely > a matter of interpretation. The "general consensus", > however, is that the S/360 and S/370 families are 32-bit > machines. Hmm. Must have missed that flame war then. Was not aware of that - my knowledge of IBM mainframes is limited, having only read things like marketing literature and overviews. Now, Prime, on the other hand. That I know. I know for a fact that the Prime 200, released in 1972, was a 32 bit machine. Slow as hell, but 32 bits nonetheless. :) -Ian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 10:00:42 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <750610.67198.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> There is an article that talks about the similarities between the 68000 and the VAX instruction set and how there was a huge influence as these were introduced in the VAX. I am not a programmer so I cannot tell you specifics as they are lost on me I need to start putting notes with references at the bottom. --- On Mon, 10/25/10, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 10:53 AM > > Also, the sentence starting "The > VAX instruction set well revered would later on influence" > needs restructured. The paragraph after the bullet points > has more of the same error. > > You could say that the designers of the 68000 were > influenced by the > PDP-11, but I do not think you could say the same thing > about the VAX. > When the 68000 design was started, the VAX was still well > under wraps. > I can see no reason why DEC would have let the Motorola > guys see the > developing architecture. > > Anyway, in the mid/late 1970s, heavily microcoded very > CISCy > architectures were pretty much the design route of choice. > It was > everywhere. It is very difficult to pin down influences. > > -- > Will > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 10:24:04 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:24:04 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 > bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I > don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit > machine :D 360 and early 370 was 24-bit. They switched to 32-bit (or 31-bit) later. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 10:31:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:31:12 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> On 10/25/10 11:24 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 >> bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I >> don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit >> machine :D > > 360 and early 370 was 24-bit. They switched to 32-bit (or 31-bit) later. Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that definition they're all 32-bit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 25 10:56:33 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:56:33 -0400 Subject: H316 indirect jump instruction Message-ID: <20101025155633.8E62CA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I'm writing a little program in H316 assembler, running it in simh (3.8-1). The usual idiom for returning from a subroutine seems to be an indirect jump through a pointer. But my indirect jump halts at the location where the pointer is stored. The code looks something like this: ... from jst subr call the subroutine ... subr dac ** ... do some stuff jmp* subr The jst is supposed to drop the address of from+1 into location subr, and execution continues at subr+1. The indirect jmp (jmp*) should be the return, getting the target address from location subr. There are even examples in some of the H316 docs showing this kind of thing. Best I can tell, the assembled code has all the correct bits set -- the indirect bit is the high order bit in the word, and is set, opcode looks correct, etc. The correct target address is indeed stored at subr by the jst. Obviously this isn't re-entrant, etc. Don't care about that at this point. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, De From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 25 11:55:10 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:55:10 -0700 Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? In-Reply-To: <4CC47C06.5020000@heeltoe.com> References: <4CC47C06.5020000@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Brad, At 2:33 PM -0400 10/24/10, Brad Parker wrote: > I have a low-level pdp-11 question... You might have better luck on the simh-dev list... >I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user & >supervisor mode. My >read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to >write the "mode" bits of the PSW. > >(or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to *clear* any >mode bits from user space) Yes, with MMU turned on, a less privileged mode should not be able to change directly to a more privileged mode. The CSM instruction, which I'm not really familiar with, provides a controlled gate to Supervisor mode from either User or Super mode, but not Kernel. >I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should >under simh and I thought I'd >ask what others think... > >Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW >even when (I claim) it >should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, >but I can/will. > >Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is >successful when run >on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... > >(which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) In user mode? Neither, I believe. It should clear the bits you're allowed to clear, and continue. >A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, >except by using >the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 >manual implies >that it *is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and >imply using the mmu. Any mode can write _some_ bits of the PSW (e.g., N, Z, V, C, sometimes T, and register set). However, actually changing modes and processor priorities should be gated by the MMU. I haven't looked at this carefully, but a processor starts out in Kernel mode. Unless mapping is turned on, all modes are equivalent. >diagnostic follows: > > .TITLE test17 > .ASECT >PSW=177776 ;processor status word > .=34 > .word 200 > .word 0007 > .=200 > mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here > rti > .=500 > clr @#PSW ;kernel mode > mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode > mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode Not sure about the above. Normally one would push new parameters onto the (Kernel) stack and RTI to change mode. But with the MMU off, I don't think anything changes because at this point K=S=U. > mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode > trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode > nop > clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode > nop > halt John From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 25 12:13:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:13:00 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:46:32 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is jus t silly. Wasn't it the first 32-bit DEC machine? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Oct 25 12:54:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:54:01 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! Message-ID: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Hi guys, I have -- just this second -- got the standalone, single-board DiscFerret hardware ("0I06") to image a disc. First, the proof: Scatter plot: http://www.discferret.com/temp/dat.scatter.png Histogram: http://www.discferret.com/temp/dat.histogram.png Raw transition data, gzipped space-separated format. First column is array index, second column is the timing value: http://www.discferret.com/temp/dat.gz Rawbinary track dump, gzipped. Most significant bit of each byte is the status of the INDEX sensor (1=index detected). If (x&0x7f) = 0, then a counter carry occurred -- the next byte should have 128 added to it. Repeated counter-carries are allowed.: http://www.discferret.com/temp/dat.bin.gz MagScan analyser output for dat.bin: http://www.discferret.com/temp/dat.magscan.txt For those of you who have a copy of the sources to my Magdecode decoder engine (I know I sent it to at least one person on-list...), the Rawbinary dump should load straight into Magdecode. The space-separated data can be loaded straight into Gnuplot (which is what I used to produce the plots), and I suspect MATLAB and Octave can probably load it too. The image file was created from an old coverdisc from "PC Zone" magazine, and is completely undated on the label. The volume label is "PCZ_OCT_3" which suggests it's from October, with last-modified dates in February and August 1993. It only covers Track Zero, which (if memory serves) is the MBR, FAT and Root Directory. The disc is 720K DOS format, sampled at 40MHz. Other things to note: - The hardware works fine at 80MHz, and possibly faster than that. It should be possible to sample with enough resolution to image a 5Mbps MFM hard disc. - There are plenty of spare registers. The new PIC uses 8-bit multiplexed addressing, which gives 256 register addresses. Only 16 are in use at the moment (!) - Write support isn't enabled yet. I need to port this across from DiscRW and test it (and no doubt rewrite parts of it, as I did with the reader engine). Surprisingly, there are only a few minor issues on the 0I06 PCBs: - C6 is missing a polarity marker. This is a non-issue, as one end connects to the ground plane and the other quite obviously connects to +5V. - Some of the component pads are rather small (notably the inductors and Schottky diodes in the power supply). This makes it hard to heat both the pad and the component pin at the same time, and thus makes the parts a bit of a pig to solder. I worked around this with a hot-air gun, preheater and solder paste... later boards will have bigger pads. - The power supply chip is a QFN with pads under the chip. The only way to solder it down is to use a hot-air gun... unfortunately TI don't make this chip in a more accessible package, and the only viable alternative would have nearly doubled the size of the power supply. Despite these issues, it's perfectly possible to assemble a 0I06 and have it work perfectly, without any "green-wire" fixes. I'm impressed: usually a first-spin board needs at least one track-cut and a couple of green-wires :) Now here's where you guys come in. I really don't want to have boxes and boxes of unused boards and parts hanging around, so I need to know how many people would like to buy a DiscFerret. These would be available as: - PCB only - PCB with the power supply section assembled and tested - Fully assembled and tested PCB - Some other form -- feel free to make suggestions! I'd appreciate it if anyone interested in buying a DiscFerret could email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk, with one of the following in the subject line (start, end, on its own, uppercase, lowercase -- anything will do, my procmail rule is pretty lenient): - "I want a PCB on its own" -- DISCFERRETBARE - "I want a PCB with the PSU built and tested" -- DISCFERRETPSU - "I want the whole thing ready-built" -- DISCFERRETBUILT - "I want a DiscFerret in some other form" -- DISCFERRETOTHER Thanks to everyone who has supported the project thus far -- your thoughts, ideas, comments and criticisms have been very useful! Now to get my reflow oven working and build some prototypes... :) Thanks! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 25 12:49:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > DiscFerret hardware ("0I06") to image a disc. First, the proof: > Fantastic news Phil! Congrats! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 25 14:44:07 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:44:07 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:46:32 -0400. Message-ID: From: Richard Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 10:13 AM In article , William Donzelli writes: >> And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is >> just silly. > Wasn't it the first 32-bit DEC machine? Yes. Up to that time, DEC's mainframes were 36-bit, and their minis were 12, 18, or 16. They phased out the 18-bit line in 1975, and demoted the 12-bit line to word processors not long after. The VAX-11/780 was DEC's entry into the so-called "supermini" market. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 25 14:54:03 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:54:03 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4CC59448.8060705@neurotica.com> <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Mr Ian Primus Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 7:41 AM > --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is >>> just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there >>> were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best >> Yeah, good heavens, how about all the IBM 360/370 >> mainframes?! Besides IBM, who announced the System/360 in April 1964 and delivered the first customer systems in October 1965, there was the Scientific Data Systems Sigma 7, with first customer ship in 1964. It even used EBCDIC internally, like the 360. > Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 > bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I don't > remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit machine :D There were 16 32-bit general registers, and 8 32-bit floating-point registers, in the IBM System/360 (other than in the Model 20, a 16-bit subset or the architecture). > Now, I AM sure that IBM had a mainframe that could do a million > instructions per second before the VAX came out. DEC might have been the > first one to turn it into a statistic with a cute name though. The VAX > *may* have been the first 1 MIPS _MINI_ computer. I know that Prime didn't > have one until like '79 or '80. The use of MIPS ratings was common in the trade press at the time. Digital expected the 11/780 to be a 1 MIPS processor, but failed to reach that goal by roughly 50%. DEC did have a product rated at slightly over 1 MIPS at the time, the KL-10 processor in the DECSYSTEM-20 (and late-model DECsystem-10) product line, but it was 36-bit and anathema to the VAX folks. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 14:59:11 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:59:11 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The VAX-11/780 was DEC's entry into the so-called "supermini" market. > > along with SEL 32/55 which came out before the VAX in '75 ;) And with a much improved SEL 32/77 already in '77 http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/computers_mini_products.html But It still wasn't a mainframe - that blurs the distinction ;) although given how Mini's advanced since the decade earlier, with comparable performance with the mainframes from the 60's. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 25 15:01:59 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:01:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: nCUBE fans out there Message-ID: Just picked up an nCUBE 2 from a list member, but I know almost nothing about the machine (beyond wikipedia and my own examination of the machine physically). I have the Sun 4/470 that front-ends it and, in theory, all the software. But I've got no idea on how to actually _use_ it. No one has donated nCUBE documentation to BitSavers, which pretty much totally buggers me up. Is there anyone out there who is familiar with these machines that, perhaps, could give me some pointers? Muchas gracias all; - JP From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 15:42:09 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:42:09 -0500 Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5EBA1.2090301@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > Just picked up an nCUBE 2 from a list member, but I know almost nothing > about the machine (beyond wikipedia and my own examination of the machine > physically). I have the Sun 4/470 that front-ends it and, in theory, all > the software. But I've got no idea on how to actually _use_ it. Oooh, nice. I culled a ad for those from October 1989's issue of "What's new in Computing" - sounded like a nice setup (up to 8192 processors, 60 billion ips, 27 billion flops). The ad also claimed that NCube would be releasing a SysV-based OS for it so that it could "run UNIX apps" - which to my mind is different from it being a bunch of slave processors with a separate machine running UNIX and acting as the front-end. Perhaps that never actually happened - but are you sure that your Sun is the machine interface, rather than just there as a diagnostic console or something? How physically large is it? Hard to tell from the picture in the ad that I have, but with a max of around 8000 processors, I imagine it's a pretty hefty beast. cheers Jules From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Oct 25 15:41:44 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:41:44 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101025203414.M10085@kw.igs.net> On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 11:31:12 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote > Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the > addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that > definition they're all 32-bit. By that standard, the earliest I know of is the Monrobot XI, 1960. (Everything earlier I could find with a 32-bit storage word either has a smaller or a decimal ALU.) Desk-sized, $24500. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 25 16:01:43 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:01:43 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , Message-ID: > From: bear at typewritten.org > > > On Oct 22, 2010, at 3:04 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I've not actually tried it on my SparcBook yet. > > The box I put it in doesn't supply terminator power > > and I need to plug several things together. > > Many Viper 2150S drives, including the Sun OEM ones, do nothing with a > newly inserted tape until the device node is opened. > > ok > bear Hi Bear Good to know. I'll give it a try then. I can see the heads moving so that works. I meant to look at it this weekend but other projects got in the way. Thanks Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 25 16:02:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:02:49 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <20101025203414.M10085@kw.igs.net> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com>, <20101025203414.M10085@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4CC58E09.2269.10EE696@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2010 at 15:41, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > By that standard, the earliest I know of is the Monrobot XI, 1960. > (Everything earlier I could find with a 32-bit storage word either has > a smaller or a decimal ALU.) Desk-sized, $24500. More to the point, what sense did a 32-bit machine make prior to 8- bit character codes (e.g. EBCDIC)? 24 36, 48 and 60 bit machines made much more sense with 6 bit character codes. All of the above word lengths are divisble by 6 and 4, so BCD isn't an issue either. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 16:06:44 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:06:44 -0500 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CC5F164.8070905@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I have -- just this second -- got the standalone, single-board > DiscFerret hardware ("0I06") to image a disc. Fantastic! > I really don't want to have boxes and boxes of unused boards and parts > hanging around, so I need to know how many people would like to buy a > DiscFerret. These would be available as: > - PCB only > - PCB with the power supply section assembled and tested > - Fully assembled and tested PCB > - Some other form -- feel free to make suggestions! Do you have some rough idea of costs? Or is that totally unknown until you have an idea of interest? (is "PCB along with any programmable parts supplied pre-programmed" a useful option? Or do the boards contain enough smarts that you can easily program/reprogram an assembled board using a plain ol' PC?) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 16:14:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:14:55 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC58E09.2269.10EE696@cclist.sydex.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> <20101025203414.M10085@kw.igs.net> <4CC58E09.2269.10EE696@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > More to the point, what sense did a 32-bit machine make prior to 8- > bit character codes (e.g. EBCDIC)? ?24 36, 48 and 60 bit machines > made much more sense with 6 bit character codes. ?All of the above > word lengths are divisble by 6 and 4, so BCD isn't an issue either. IBM did a study at the start of the 1960s and found that most data out in the real world was financial records made of mostly BCD, and having a word length of 32 bits made a great deal of sense, both in storing and moving data. I think Amdahl originally wanted the S/360 to be based on a six bit character, but lost the argument to the study. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 25 16:22:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 14:22:23 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4CC58E09.2269.10EE696@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CC5929F.14530.121BD57@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2010 at 17:14, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM did a study at the start of the 1960s and found that most data out > in the real world was financial records made of mostly BCD, and having > a word length of 32 bits made a great deal of sense, both in storing > and moving data. I think Amdahl originally wanted the S/360 to be > based on a six bit character, but lost the argument to the study. Is the study available for perusal somewhere? (e.g. FJCC) I'd like to see their logic. 32 bit was a terrible choice when your floating point word was 8 bit exponent and 24 bit mantissa, normalized to a 4 bit boundary, however. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 16:50:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:50:22 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5929F.14530.121BD57@cclist.sydex.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC58E09.2269.10EE696@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC5929F.14530.121BD57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Is the study available for perusal somewhere? ?(e.g. FJCC) ?I'd like > to see their logic. I do not know. The study is mentioned in the 360 history book. > 32 bit was a terrible choice when your floating point word was 8 bit > exponent and 24 bit mantissa, normalized to a 4 bit boundary, > however. I do not think anyone has much great to say about S/360 floating point. Anyway, single precision floating point (32 bit) is relatively useless, no matter what machine it is on. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 25 17:18:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <889239.13827.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <889239.13827.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20101025151721.H35703@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > Thanks I will update... When I researched it there was something that > stated it was the first... So if my mistake I will update. Almost ANY use of the word "FIRST" in a history is challengable. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 17:22:05 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:22:05 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC6030D.3030901@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/25/10 11:24 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Those mainframes weren't 32 bit though. They were *much more* than 32 >>> bit. What was it, two 64 bit registers or something like that? I >>> don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it's not just a straight 32 bit >>> machine :D >> >> 360 and early 370 was 24-bit. They switched to 32-bit (or 31-bit) later. > > Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the > addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that > definition they're all 32-bit. Point taken. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 25 17:38:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101025153713.G35703@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the > addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that > definition they're all 32-bit. Trying to quantify a computer, car, etc. by a single number can only work if you are blind, and it is an elephant. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Oct 25 17:39:05 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:39:05 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CC5F164.8070905@gmail.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CC5F164.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1288046345.9356.234.camel@cheetah> On Mon, 2010-10-25 at 16:06 -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Do you have some rough idea of costs? Or is that totally unknown until you > have an idea of interest? The smallest batch I can make up is three units, which costs as about ?95 per unit at "standard spec", without a power supply or case. With a smaller FPGA, this can be knocked down to about ?90 per unit. Note that the type of FPGA doesn't matter: the smaller part can be specified as a Migration Device in Quartus, meaning the RBF file (microcode) will work on both parts. The microcode currently uses about 1800 LEs, out of the 5000 available on the smallest part, and the 8000 on the larger part. I only used the 8000 LE part because I had some lying around. > (is "PCB along with any programmable parts supplied pre-programmed" a useful > option? Or do the boards contain enough smarts that you can easily > program/reprogram an assembled board using a plain ol' PC?) Argh -- I forgot about that. You need to program the PIC with a bootloader, then the board can take a firmware download over USB. You do this with the In-Circuit Serial Programming port (the same port the MPLAB Debuggers use to talk to the chip). I'll probably get a batch of PICs made up with the bootloader pre-loaded. A batch of 25 pre-programmed chips from MicrochipDirect works out at about the same per-part as 25 blank chips from Farnell. Adding a thermal-transfer label to the part only adds another 7p to the per-chip cost... Hardly worth arguing about, really, and it saves faffing around with a chip programmer. I should note that there's a set of ICSP pads on the bottom-side of the PCB. You can solder wire-wrap wire to these, then hook them up to an ICD2, ICD3, PICKit2 or PICKit3 to debug the MCU firmware. There's a similar feature for the FPGA -- a four-pin JTAG header and a pair of power test points. This means you can wire the FPGA to an Altera ByteBlaster2 or USB Blaster, run SignalTap and spy on the FPGA logic. This has helped to resolve quite a few microcode bugs! Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 25 17:46:17 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:46:17 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Mr Ian Primus > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best :) I think I'm right saying the Manchester 'Baby' had a 32 bit word in 1948, actually 32 of them on one Williams tube. However as it was a serial machine the data path to memory was actually one bit wide so it depends how you define bit size, but I was taught it was the largest addressable unit of memory and by that definition it had a 32 bit word. There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? Actually as I worked for a defence contractor I knew about the 68k before I heard of the VAX. The engineers did not believe the Motorola design was practical and we worried about a large 64 pin chip in the environment of a military helicopter's avionics bay (G forces, vibration, expansion, cooling etc) and it was decided to go with the 48pin Zilog Z8001 instead. Possibly a big mistake but at the time sample Z8001s were available to us but MC68000s were still estimated to be at best months away. When I left the company a couple of years later we had just placed an order for a VAX 11/780 to augment our GEC 4080, GEC 4070 and a Prime. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 17:56:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:56:38 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? Big microcoded CISC was the dominant thinking in computer architecture at the time, so it is really hard to say that X influenced Y. > The engineers did not believe the Motorola design was practical and we worried about a large 64 pin chip in the environment of a military helicopter's avionics bay (G forces, vibration, expansion, cooling etc) and it was decided to go with the 48pin Zilog Z8001 instead. Why not use PGA or Flatpack? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 25 18:50:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:50:06 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com>, <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC5B53E.14061.1A8F9D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2010 at 11:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the > addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that > definition they're all 32-bit. Addressing width is a red herring. The S/360 addressed 8-bit bytes with a 24 bit address; the CDC 6600 addressed 60-bit words with an 18 bit (actually 17 until late in the series) address. The CDC STAR addressed at the bit level and had a 48 bit (virtual) address. Addressing bus width is pointless unless you know what was being addressed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 25 18:56:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:56:39 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CC5B6C7.14617.1AEF9D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2010 at 18:56, William Donzelli wrote: > > The engineers did not believe the Motorola design was practical and > > we worried about a large 64 pin chip in the environment of a > > military helicopter's avionics bay (G forces, vibration, expansion, > > cooling etc) and it was decided to go with the 48pin Zilog Z8001 > > instead. > > Why not use PGA or Flatpack? The biggest problem at the time was supply and availability. We got dog-and-pony shows from Intel, National, Zilog and Motorola. We really liked Motorola, but, like National, delivery of actual silicon (as well as production quantities) was "Real Soon Now". In fact, as it I recall, it took National almost 3 years after their initial presentation before they had production silicon ready for sale. The big reason that the x86 got its popularity was because Intel was substantially ahead of the crowd in availability. Wasn't TI making some inroads with its I2L SPB9900 chips? I never could get a sample from the TI sales rep. How long did the Fairchild 9440 persist in military gear? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:12:56 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:12:56 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <20101025153713.G35703@shell.lmi.net> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> <20101025153713.G35703@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CC62B18.4010901@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the >> addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that >> definition they're all 32-bit. > > Trying to quantify a computer, car, etc. by a single number can only work > if you are blind, and it is an elephant. I'm reading this from my bunker, because this whole sub-thread could get ugly, fast ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 20:44:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:44:23 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <20101025153713.G35703@shell.lmi.net> References: <358521.76031.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4CC5A114.6080205@gmail.com> <4CC5A2C0.2040102@neurotica.com> <20101025153713.G35703@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CC63277.3010901@neurotica.com> On 10/25/10 6:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ahh, but by what definition? You're obviously talking about the >> addressing capability. I was talking about data paths, and by that >> definition they're all 32-bit. > > Trying to quantify a computer, car, etc. by a single number can only work > if you are blind, and it is an elephant. Sure, but I'm not blind, nor is the S/360 an elephant, but I don't think anyone disputes that they're 32-bit machines. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From leaknoil at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:44:49 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:44:49 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CC63291.2060708@gmail.com> Are these early card reader parts and if so how early ? http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Vintage-IBM-Large-Heavy-Switch-Thingys-/260683204959 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:51:41 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:51:41 -0500 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <4CC63291.2060708@gmail.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>,<4CC63291.2060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: My guess is that these are plug patch panels for a collator / sorter card reader or printer. My hint was the 'gold spikes' Contacts for this patch panel Randy > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:44:49 -0700 > From: leaknoil at gmail.com > To: > Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' > > Are these early card reader parts and if so how early ? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Vintage-IBM-Large-Heavy-Switch-Thingys-/260683204959 From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 21:20:34 2010 From: rollerton at gmail.com (rollerton at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 02:20:34 +0000 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90e6ba53acb4f9bbc904937bc067@google.com> Pretty sure those are the connectors that went at the end of the (large) cable that connected Unit Record equipment together; for instance connected a Reproducing Punch to the Accounting Machine... The massive steel fixture locked the socket and plug together. The cables I remember were about 1.5" in diameter and fabric covered. Ok, thats my best guess anyway. bob. On Oct 25, 2010 8:51pm, Randy Dawson wrote: > My guess is that these are plug patch panels for a collator / sorter card > reader or printer. > My hint was the 'gold spikes' > Contacts for this patch panel > Randy > > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:44:49 -0700 > > From: leaknoil at gmail.com > > To: > > Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' > > > > Are these early card reader parts and if so how early ? > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Vintage-IBM-Large-Heavy-Switch-Thingys-/260683204959 From leaknoil at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 21:26:34 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:26:34 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <90e6ba53acb4f9bbc904937bc067@google.com> References: <90e6ba53acb4f9bbc904937bc067@google.com> Message-ID: <4CC63C5A.2090508@gmail.com> It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the contacts are what read the holes in the card. If a contact is made there is a hole. If not the spot is unpunched. Hard to imagine that as a cable connector. I don't actually know though. On 10/25/2010 7:20 PM, rollerton at gmail.com wrote: > Pretty sure those are the connectors that went at the end of the > (large) cable that connected Unit Record equipment together; for > instance connected a Reproducing Punch to the Accounting Machine... > The massive steel fixture locked the socket and plug together. The > cables I remember were about 1.5" in diameter and fabric covered. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 21:28:23 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:28:23 -0400 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CC63CC7.1090907@30below.com> On 10/25/2010 01:54 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, First and foremost: Congratulations! > - Some of the component pads are rather small (notably the inductors > and Schottky diodes in the power supply). This makes it hard to heat > both the pad and the component pin at the same time, and thus makes the > parts a bit of a pig to solder. I worked around this with a hot-air gun, > preheater and solder paste... later boards will have bigger pads. > - The power supply chip is a QFN with pads under the chip. The only > way to solder it down is to use a hot-air gun... unfortunately TI don't > make this chip in a more accessible package, and the only viable > alternative would have nearly doubled the size of the power supply. [[ assuming I didn't mis-read the statement, and I'm teaching your grandmother to suck eggs... ;-) ]] The only thing I might be able to contribute to this discussion (as I'm barely figuring out basic PAL/GAL logic in WinCUPL right now) is: Instead of a heat gun, have you tried a mini electric oven or what we call in the US a "toaster oven?" http://store.curiousinventor.com/guides/Surface_Mount_Soldering/Solder_Paste_and_Toaster_Oven/ http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=59 http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm I pointed a co-worker towards these articles about a year ago when he mentioned he had a JetDirect board that quit working and he thought it was a "chip with no pins" that could be at fault; he followed the directions, repaired the board and it's been working fine to this day, he's repaired a few other items (including an XBox360) in this manner as well. I will say that I have not tried it (yet) as I'm just getting further into my hobbies after about 5 years; I'm down to one job instead of 3... Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Oct 25 21:39:39 2010 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:39:39 -0400 Subject: A new podcast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63337FE4-E3A9-497F-90C7-EEF973844111@classiccomputing.com> Hello everyone, I would like to announce a new podcast series that I have started, and I feel really good about it's potential. When you can, please consider giving a listen to the Retro Computing Roundtable - http://web.me.com/dgreelish/Classic_Computing_Podcasts/RCR/RCR.html I am currently working on its submission to iTunes. This show has Bill Degnan from M.A.R.C.H. & VCFe, Earl Evans from "The Retrobits Podcast" and Carrington Vanston from the "1MHz: The Apple ][ Podcast." The next show is scheduled in three weeks! Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society meeting - first Wednesday of each month. Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planned for March 2011! From george at rachors.com Mon Oct 25 21:48:45 2010 From: george at rachors.com (george at rachors.com) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:48:45 -0700 Subject: A new podcast In-Reply-To: <63337FE4-E3A9-497F-90C7-EEF973844111@classiccomputing.com> References: <63337FE4-E3A9-497F-90C7-EEF973844111@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <7800330aea770ac819e7ff7b47419915.squirrel@rachors.com> Way Cool... Looking forward to this! George Rachor > Hello everyone, > > I would like to announce a new podcast series that I have started, and I > feel really good about it's potential. > > When you can, please consider giving a listen to the Retro Computing > Roundtable - > http://web.me.com/dgreelish/Classic_Computing_Podcasts/RCR/RCR.html > > I am currently working on its submission to iTunes. This show has Bill > Degnan from M.A.R.C.H. & VCFe, Earl Evans from "The Retrobits Podcast" and > Carrington Vanston from the "1MHz: The Apple ][ Podcast." > > The next show is scheduled in three weeks! > Best, > > David Greelish, Computer Historian > > Classic Computing > The Home of Computer History Nostalgia > http://www.classiccomputing.com > Classic Computing Blog > Classic Computing Show video podcast > "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast > Retro Computing Roundtable podcast > Historical Computer Society meeting - first Wednesday of each month. > Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planned for March 2011! > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 25 21:49:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:49:03 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <4CC63C5A.2090508@gmail.com> References: <90e6ba53acb4f9bbc904937bc067@google.com> <4CC63C5A.2090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC6419F.70707@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/10 7:26 PM, leaknoil wrote: > It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the contacts are what read the holes in the card. nope cards are read with 12 brushes they appear to be the cover connectors for interconnecting cables From leaknoil at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:05:31 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:05:31 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <4CC6419F.70707@bitsavers.org> References: <90e6ba53acb4f9bbc904937bc067@google.com> <4CC63C5A.2090508@gmail.com> <4CC6419F.70707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CC6457B.8080308@gmail.com> Ah got it. The connector thing didn't make sense until I thought about it reversed. Makes sense now. The flanged side threw me. On 10/25/2010 7:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/25/10 7:26 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the >> contacts are what read the holes in the card. > > nope > > cards are read with 12 brushes > > they appear to be the cover connectors for interconnecting cables > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:08:32 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:08:32 -0500 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay Message-ID: You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around that long. http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 22:13:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:13:24 -0400 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC64754.2030305@neurotica.com> On 10/25/10 11:08 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around > that long. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 AMD was founded in the '60s! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:45:08 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:45:08 -0500 Subject: Unknown Wangs Message-ID: I recently acquired a small truckload of DEC and Wang equipment which I am starting to sort and inventory in my garage. The DEC is mostly accounted for (tho will lead to later questions here) but I know far less about the Wang stuff. It seems Google does, too. I've got a few larger units plus a number of boards - it appears the stuff originally came from a repair shop and/or dealer. I've photographed two pieces: The first I'm not even sure of the make - its colors sort of suggest DEC but I'm leaning toward it being a Wang printer stand: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/MysteryCart# The second is a Wang Word Processor, model 5506-A. Google has much on earlier WPs from them, but nothing on this model: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/Wang5506AWordProcessor# What I find especially strange about this one is that it's called a "Word Processor," suggesting it is a complete system, yet it has ports for neither storage nor a printer. Could it be a terminal to a networked (WangNet) system? Still, the only ports on the back are Video and Keyboard - both of which it has built-in. They could be aux video in or out, or an attachment for an add-on keyboard? The 5506 is practically mint. The guy I got it from said he had the original box but it was in such bad shape he tossed it :( There is still shipping plastic on the space bar and the screen. Turning it on shows a blank greenscreen - turning up the brightness shows diagonal lines, so there may be a display problem. Hoping for clues! More to come... -- jht From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 25 23:36:36 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:36:36 -0700 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a709bfa2d254203284689c4c0159579@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 25, at 8:45 PM, Jason T wrote: > > The second is a Wang Word Processor, model 5506-A. Google has much on > earlier WPs from them, but nothing on this model: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/Wang5506AWordProcessor# > > What I find especially strange about this one is that it's called a > "Word Processor," suggesting it is a complete system, yet it has ports > for neither storage nor a printer. Could it be a terminal to a > networked (WangNet) system? Still, the only ports on the back are > Video and Keyboard - both of which it has built-in. They could be aux > video in or out, or an attachment for an add-on keyboard? I'll hazard a guess it is a very-dumb terminal: the connectors could be video-in for the monitor and keyboard-out, the smarts all being elsewhere. Could open it up and see how much (if any) logic is in there. > The 5506 is practically mint. The guy I got it from said he had the > original box but it was in such bad shape he tossed it :( There is > still shipping plastic on the space bar and the screen. Turning it > on shows a blank greenscreen - turning up the brightness shows > diagonal lines, so there may be a display problem. Sounds like the retrace becoming visible, turning up the brightness on a raster scan often shows this, notably the horizontal scan lines during the vertical retrace interval show up as angled lines. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 23:38:44 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:38:44 -0700 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC65B54.7040902@brouhaha.com> > You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around that long. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 > What the item description doesn't say is that this is a development system for Am2900 series bitslice chips. The Am9080A (equivalent to Intel 8080A) is the only the host processor. From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 00:08:16 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BYTE magazines to be scanned? Message-ID: <539464.38583.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have stacks of duplicate BYTE magazines. Would it be a sin to have them cut-up to be scanned, page-by-page? Nothing from the 70's, I would do 80's era only. Has anyone ever done this? They wouldn't be posted online, it would be for personal research only. I would certainly share the info with others if requested. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 00:09:02 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:09:02 -0700 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC65B54.7040902@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CC65B54.7040902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:38:44 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Another interesting computer on ebay > > > > You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around that long. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 > > > What the item description doesn't say is that this is a development > system for Am2900 series bitslice chips. The Am9080A (equivalent to > Intel 8080A) is the only the host processor. > Hi I also wouldn't call it a clone. I don't think Intel would have ever made a deveopment system for 2900's. Many of the multi-bus boards were almost direct copies of Intel boards. Both AMD and National made Multi-bus boards even though the where Intel competitors. Dwight From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 00:51:08 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:51:08 -0500 Subject: BYTE magazines to be scanned? In-Reply-To: <539464.38583.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <539464.38583.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 12:08 AM, steven stengel wrote: > I have stacks of duplicate BYTE magazines. > Would it be a sin to have them cut-up to be scanned, page-by-page? I think they are common enough, at least the 80s ones, that a single set can be sacrificed for scanning. Even the earlier ones aren't rare, but they do fetch a few $ on ebay so one might have second thoughts there. > Has anyone ever done this? Many people are starting to scan and post magazines (bombjack.org has many Commodore mags, often the fulls runs, for download.) I scan manuals and ad materials - I have not done magazines yet. I'd be curious to know what techniques are out there for doing them. > They wouldn't be posted online, it would be for personal research only. Why not? Are Byte's owners still active in publishing? -- jht From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 26 00:54:46 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:54:46 -0500 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC66D26.9070602@vaxen.net> Jason T wrote: > I recently acquired a small truckload of DEC and Wang equipment which > I am starting to sort and inventory in my garage. I don't know anything at all about Wang computers, but I did get a good chortle out of the subject line. Thanks! Doc From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 01:09:58 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 01:09:58 -0500 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: <4CC66D26.9070602@vaxen.net> References: <4CC66D26.9070602@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > > ?I don't know anything at all about Wang computers, but I did get a good > chortle out of the subject line. You don't know how hard it was to stop there... From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Oct 25 04:04:07 2010 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:04:07 +0100 Subject: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of S/390s I wondered if anyone could help me to donate my to the NMOC at Bletchley Park. The model number escapes me, but it's an early air-cooled s/390 from around 1990-1992. NMOC don't currently have this architecture in the collection, so are receptive to the donation. However there's the small matter of getting it there from Hampshire. My MG isn't up to lugging to cabinets worth of disk and IO chassis. The other issue is that I have almost no cabling. I have the cabling for the system controller workstation, but all of the bus and tag cabling used for this model is missing. So for the moment, it sits in both the spare bedroom and the garage. Anyone clearing out the under floor of their data centers in southern England? And anyone with a strong back and and white van? Thanks, Colin Eby |------------> | From: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk-request at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |24/10/2010 23:56 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 2. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 3. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Patrick Finnegan) 4. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] (Tony Duell) 5. simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? (Brad Parker) 6. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (St?phane Tsacas) 7. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Sridhar Ayengar) 8. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 9. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) 10. FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs (Nick Allen) 11. Re: the new manx is live (Torfinn Ingolfsen) 12. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (jim s) 13. RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) (Tom Gardner) 14. Re: Apple IIa (Martin Goldberg) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:49 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CC46A79.3090101 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 12:20 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It will be interesting to see if it sells ... They always do. Have you guys really not seen recent IBM mainframes sell on eBay before? They come up (and sell) maybe half a dozen times per year. I personally have two sitting here, and I'm not even a hardcore mainframer. > It may have just become collectible and be tracked as the first of its kind outside IBM's control to be sold as > running hardware on eBay. One never knows what will make an IBMcollectable :) Certainly not the first, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:53 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CC46A7D.2060903 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 12:14 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Presumably they haven't "gone after people" for running Linux on > Hercules, so it seems unlikely that they would go after someone for > running Linux on a z900. We can't presume to know what an eBay buyer > would run on it. You still need the LIC to run Linux, and the LIC is what's tightly controlled. One can get operating systems pretty easily, but not LIC images. >> they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a >> current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, >> this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. > > I'll admit that I'm not very expert on such things, so I could be > mistaken, but this looks to be an 8 year old model to me, not one that > "you can still buy new". The z900 was withdrawn from marketing three or four years ago, which makes them pretty much "last years' model" in the mainframe world. They're still supported. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:25:29 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201010241425.30204.pat at computer-refuge.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > > > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 > > 0G1.html > > Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal > for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the > LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the > original purchaser and only on the specific machine and > configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other > party is unlicensed and illegal. This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone else. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:22:50 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the > > heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why > > it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. > > A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are > needed. That's _exactly_ my point. Having atbitrary limits may cause problems later on. > > > And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not > > just a number for each artefact starting at 1? > > It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of > acquisition. But the bean-counters care. Ah no, you misnderstood me... Presumanbly there is a database of the artefacts in the museum, indexed by the indentification numbers. That database includes more details about the particular object, things like (I would hope), options, serial number (s), version, etc. All we've been discussing. I see no reason why the date of acquisition (full date, not just the year), source (maybe 'anonymous donor' :-)), and the like should not be stored there as well. It's far better to store too much information than too little. But what I am wondering is why the year of acquisition should be a field in the indentifier. > Not "exclusive", but a different attitude about what is/isn't important. > > If you end up with a common/stock item that was once owned by a celebrity, > you could sell it on eBay to one of those provenance collectors, and buy > several that were not celebrity owned. As an aside, maybe in principle, but not always in practice... Suppose I did have an HP9820 (say) that had been used for some famous bit of work. Yes, I could sell it for more than the normal 'going rate' for such a machine. But could I be sure ot be able to buy another one? There's not an infinite supply of old computers, and some people may well not sell _at any price_. You could offer me a million pounds/dollars for a machine in my collection and I would turn you down. And I'll bet there are others like me. > > > > > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how > > > interesting/important that item is. > > How can you possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later > > turn out to be? > > It is a subjective evaluation. One more reason that proper cataloging > requires expertise. Agreed... I feel you should err on the side of recording too much information. It's easy to ignroe it later ;-) > > I'm not sure that I would want to live in a world where DELLs became the > most interesting/important computers for collecting. Nor would I, and for the record I don't consider DELLs or other PC clones to be the machines I want to collect. That doesn't mean I think that nobody should collect them. Or that the PC clone has not had a very significant impact on computing (not necessarily for the better :-)). -tony ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:33:42 -0400 From: Brad Parker Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? To: General at heeltoe.com, "Discussion at heeltoe.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , "simh at trailing-edge.com" Message-ID: <4CC47C06.5020000 at heeltoe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have a low-level pdp-11 question... I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user & supervisor mode. My read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write the "mode" bits of the PSW. (or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to *clear* any mode bits from user space) I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should under simh and I thought I'd ask what others think... Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even when (I claim) it should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I can/will. Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful when run on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... (which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except by using the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual implies that it *is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and imply using the mmu. diagnostic follows: .TITLE test17 .ASECT PSW=177776 ;processor status word .=34 .word 200 .word 0007 .=200 mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here rti .=500 clr @#PSW ;kernel mode mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode nop clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode nop halt ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:47:49 +0200 From: St?phane Tsacas Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 15:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> >> > > That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere near > classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here. > > See also http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 ;-) -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:39 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CC48CE3.7050508 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed St?phane Tsacas wrote: > See also > http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 > ;-) *boioioioioioioing!!* Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:49:27 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CC48DC7.9070705 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 3:45 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> See also >> http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/330480462152 >> >> ;-) > > *boioioioioioioing!!* Right there with you on that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:11:02 -0500 From: Nick Allen Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC1E1C6.9050709 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sure, I will upload the photos shortly. Did you have to build a custom cable/adapter from Diablo to the Parallel port on the PC? Did you use any a custom drive, utility, os on the PC side? Just looking to validate somehow that my Diablo Drive is fully functioning, and this direction seems to be the best bet until I get the Alto working. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:35:54 -0500 From: Nick Allen Subject: FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC23BFA.3050409 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Byte magazines pretty much the complete 1975-1977 years! Kilobaud magazines: Year 1977 Dr Dobb's: Years 1977-79 Sun-2 technical overview documentation Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs Mark 8 Minicomputer build plans from Radio Electronics magazine: Here is the link to my seller profile (will display all current auctions): http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1 Trying to clear room in the condo, and raise funds to repair the Alto/IMSAIs/Altairs! ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:09:42 +0200 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen Subject: Re: the new manx is live To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article > <6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%252BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > Seems there are some network problems somewhere between me and manx. I can't rerach bitsavers.org either: tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ ping bitsavers.org PING bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17) 56(84) bytes of data. >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=50 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=53 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=54 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=55 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=56 Packet filtered ^C --- bitsavers.org ping statistics --- 91 packets transmitted, 0 received, +5 errors, 100% packet loss, time 90127ms tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 * * * 2 * * * 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * * 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * * * 16 * * * 17 * * * 18 * * * 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ from my gateway / firewall: tingo at kg-omni1$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 46.484 ms 98.823 ms 99.785 ms 2 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 14.068 ms 14.298 ms 13.788 ms 3 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 14.536 ms 15.015 ms 14.369 ms 4 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 14.258 ms 18.107 ms 14.183 ms 5 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 14.555 ms 14.674 ms 14.876 ms 6 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 27.834 ms 28.522 ms 27.609 ms 7 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 33.525 ms 33.542 ms 33.596 ms 8 213.248.65.121 (213.248.65.121) 43.259 ms 43.400 ms ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.117) 42.396 ms 9 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.698 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.105) 43.963 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.340 ms 10 cogent-ic-140549-ffm-b12.c.telia.net (213.248.92.142) 43.399 ms 43.176 ms 42.901 ms 11 te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 39.443 ms te0-2-0-6.ccr21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.237) 134.206 ms te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 40.854 ms 12 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 133.907 ms te0-1-0-4.ccr21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.190) 146.549 ms 146.957 ms 13 te0-0-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.154) 144.096 ms 146.334 ms 145.755 ms 14 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 148.954 ms 149.120 ms 149.191 ms 15 vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 159.651 ms 159.613 ms 157.883 ms 16 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 151.954 ms 153.009 ms 177.673 ms 17 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 152.974 ms 153.659 ms 153.212 ms 18 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 152.006 ms 151.510 ms 150.509 ms 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * 31 * * * 32 * * * 33 * * * 34 * * * 35 * * * 36 * * * 37 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 667.077 ms !X * 38 * * * 39 * * * 40 * * * 41 * * * 42 * * * 43 * * * 44 * * * 45 * * * 46 * * * 47 * * * 48 * * * 49 * * * 50 * * * 51 * * * 52 * * * 53 * * * 54 * * * 55 * * * 56 * * * 57 * * * 58 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 152.356 ms !X * 59 * * * 60 * * * 61 * * * 62 * * * 63 * * * 64 * * * tingo at kg-omni1$ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:32:24 -0700 From: jim s Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CC489C8.3020702 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed The LIC for the r/390's and the pc/390's was at one time freely downloadable. It is the OS Licensed material that is not transferable to another entity. The firmware is not a problem. Most of the peripherals have LIC code and you only need to call IBM to get copies if you supply the model number. I have two 3174's that have "LIC" and IBM's support number supplied the code at IBM's cost to fix me up. I have to say that I was impressed with that. I also ordered 3290 support as well as the latest rev of the Token Ring support on 2mb floppies. I also believe that the firmware for the 9370's is not a problem to transfer, just the OS. Linux is not a problem. I will ask a friend who has two of these running what if any issues he has, as he may have transferred a license I don't know about for one of the smaller 390's he has. Based on his use, I would almost (but for that detail) say there is no problem as long as you have the hardware. On 10/24/2010 11:25 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas > wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >>> >>> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 >>> 0G1.html >> Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal >> for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the >> LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the >> original purchaser and only on the specific machine and >> configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other >> party is unlicensed and illegal. > This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that > popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to > transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to > keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to > destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone > else. > > Pat ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:10:21 -0700 From: "Tom Gardner" Subject: RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: >Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. >A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing >any arbitrary cell needs the same time. . That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc) categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape (sequential). So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same time. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William Donzelli) > 2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt) > 3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Ian King) > 4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS) > 5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan Williams) > 6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow) > 7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti) > 8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard) > 9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck Guzis) > 10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Rich Alderson) > 11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman) > 12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Al Kossow) > 13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis) > 15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus Pihlgren) > 16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren) > 17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) > 18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Charlie Carothers) > 19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin) > 20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Jochen Kunz) > 21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Christian Corti) > 22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) (Roger Holmes) > 23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer) > 24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow) > 25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? > > Not me. > > I probably have enough of the modules that I could build one, however. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100 > From: "Rob Jarratt" > Subject: RE: the new manx is live > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > , "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Only'" > > Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$@ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to > classiccmp.org > > (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 ms > > 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > Works OK for me, here is my tracert: > > 1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER [192.168.0.1] > 2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1 > 3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net > [80.5.1 > 65.13] > 4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net > [195. > 182.180.37] > 5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.175.1] > 6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253 > .187.178] > 7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.64.21] > 8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.159.30] > 9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253. > 185.81] > 10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.14.133] > 11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.51.230] > 12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .40.234] > 13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .6.178] > 14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54.27. > 30] > 15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms > vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [ > 38.20.47.170] > 16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10 > 17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com [208.82.151.42] > 18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22] > 19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com [208.75.82.50] > 20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms 209-145-130-66.accessus.net > [209.145.130.66] > 21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.17] > > Regards > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700 > From: Ian King > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > > > > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > > > n00b in this respect. > > > > > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > > > > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > > > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > > > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > > > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > > > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > > > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them > > associated > > > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > > > and piece numbers. > > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > > here? > > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > > > Yes. :-) > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component > from machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately > catalogued with a note in the record stating that it was originally part > of machine A. > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an > RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that > machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. > > That would not be appropriate for a machine that is historically > significant in its particular configuration (for example, our PDP-12), but > that's a hard argument to make for the vast majority of PDP-8/e's. And > given the records we keep, we could restore the accession to its original > configuration if needed. > > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and > restoration. -- Ian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400 > From: "MikeS" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > > all of the software for it. > ---- > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and > the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) > > mike > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100 > From: Dan Williams > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > >> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive > >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > >> I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I > >> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and > >> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > > > The latter would be interesting. > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > Dan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote: > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > > From: Al Kossow > > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > >> That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > >> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > >> all of the software for it. > > ---- > > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI > and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;- > ) > > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > couple of weeks ago. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400 > From: Dan Roganti > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > > > > > > very nice ! > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article , > Dan Roganti writes: > > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > This first round was just to reproduce the existing manx. > > Next up is to add users and roles to provide for community additions. > > Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code base has been > developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > > couple of weeks ago. > > Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my hellbox and the > blue manual that gives the schematics for the system. But no > firmware listing for the monitor... > > BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on eBay offering the > INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the each? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > >> and piece numbers. > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > here? > > I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. > > You donate items to a museum, let's say for simplicity's sake a horse shoe > and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups and matching saucers, > pot, sugar and creamer. > > You do this in 2010. That's the first field of the accession numbers. > > The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the museum this year. > These numbers will be the second fields of the respective accession > numbers. > > The horse shoe will receive accession number 2010.075.001, and be marked > as 2010.75.1 > > The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar, 2010.076.002; the creamer, > 2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair, 2010.076.004A and > 2010.076.004B; > and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer will be the matching > decoration on each pair. > > You could also simply number each piece individually, but then you lose > information. > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose > of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be > very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will > have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with > the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers > may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the > understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries > to please everyone in the know about a topic--there are art museums which > I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit over and over, for > example.) Neither policy is "broken", they simply differ. > > Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea services. My personal > preference would be to replicate the manufacturer's bill of materials, > assigning accession numbers at each level down to the circuit boards (or > equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules, but those don't > crop up in the time frame in which we have specialized). Since the > catalog here was set up by someone else several years before I joined > the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in place--we're not in > a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my way. > > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, > etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > > It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would really rather be > restoring a system to working condition, but without a catalog, you will > very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and your reason for being > a museum. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400 > From: Charles Dickman > Subject: Re: HTL > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? > > > > Why do you ask? > > I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for. > > -chuck > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier > > But necessary. > > We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in > them, > for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions > that > fact. > > It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that should be in an > accessioned > artifact is missing, and the condition. > > It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection. > > One of the requirements for museum accreditation is having a significant > portion of your collection cataloged. > > CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We have just under 75,000 > items > visible in the on-line data base > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > is working as expected. > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > is working as expected. > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > should spin the tape a bit). > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden and unless you find > someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I wouldn't mind paying for it. > Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is this thing? > > /P > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is a semiuseful tool: > > http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://manx.classiccmp.org/ > > Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many thanks. > > /Pontus > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org > > traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte > packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 > > ms 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500 > From: Nick Allen > Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Al and everyone else, > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a > PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto diskpacks up to > bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please provide the steps > on how to do so? > > If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the disk packs have valid > data on them, this would be yet another step completed in getting the > alto up and running =) > > Thanks! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500 > From: Charlie Carothers > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> From: Christian Corti > >> > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > >>> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which > don't > >>> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed > in > >>> the late 1950s). > >> > >> Then you've been told wrong. > >> Several examples: > >> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > >> yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > >> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > >> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > >> still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > >> All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > >> southern Germany. > >> > >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not > counting > >>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway > I'm > >>> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > >>> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless > it > >>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > >> > >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > >> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. > > > > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. > > > > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? > > > > If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version > became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my > machine went live either. > > > > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: > > > > 1958, LGP-30 > > 1958, Zuse Z22 > > Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with > random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate > Access Store by ICT). > > > > Thanks again. > > > > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I > catch up with my e-mails. > > > > > > > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. > > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 > From: "r.stricklin" > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > It could be, depending on firmware. > > ok > bear > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200 > From: Jochen Kunz > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 > Roger Holmes wrote: > > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine > > with random access program and data storage. > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > just with a bit lattency... > > I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is operated now. When it > moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours with demonstrations > done by the former maintainers of the machine. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > > just with a bit lattency... > > Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. A random access > storage is defined by the fact that addressing any arbitrary cell needs > the same time. > But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too, called > "Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast memory". > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes > Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > > > > > And we have a winner!! > > > > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate > the > > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world > to > > do so > > > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > > ? > > > No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of > the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost > every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest > original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a > list of the top ten not just the top one. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100 > From: Simon Fryer > Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it > >> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. > > > > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder > > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know > > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English- > Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top > > >> Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the > >> toilet. > > > > And for other uses in that location? > > The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay in an emergency. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Al and everyone else, > > > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC > computer > > I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies sectors across through a > PC parallel port. > > Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I normally supplied a > couple of them > with the machines that came from me, and could tell pretty quickly if they > need to be copied. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > > is working as expected. > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > > Is this normal? > > > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > > should spin the tape a bit). > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Thanks Chuck > I was afraid of that. That was my recollection > of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the motor > doesn't spin. > As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded > with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would > unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30 > minute job to spool it back on. > I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what is up. > The fact that I see the head moving gives me confidence > that it is most likely the motor drive circuit. > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > Dwight > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > > 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as > well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > ************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:40:43 -0500 From: Martin Goldberg Subject: Re: Apple IIa To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". It comes in more than that. There's also the IIe enhanced model (pre-platinum), and you'll also find IIGS upgrade versions out there. Marty End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52 ************************************** From bqt at softjar.se Mon Oct 25 09:47:55 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 16:47:55 +0200 Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5989B.3060708@softjar.se> On 10/25/10 00:46, Brad Parker wrote: > I have a low-level pdp-11 question... > > I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user& > supervisor mode. My > read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write > the "mode" bits of the PSW. > > (or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to*clear* any mode > bits from user space) > > I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should > under simh and I thought I'd > ask what others think... > > Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even > when (I claim) it > should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I > can/will. > > Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful > when run > on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... > > (which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) > > A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except > by using > the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual > implies > that it*is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and > imply using the mmu. > > diagnostic follows: > > .TITLE test17 > .ASECT > PSW=177776 ;processor status word > .=34 > .word 200 > .word 0007 > .=200 > mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here > rti > .=500 > clr @#PSW ;kernel mode > mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode > mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode > mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode > trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode > nop > clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode > nop > halt > > The PSW, when regarded as a memory location, is not protected at all. How could it be? The PSW is protected, when we talk about the MFPS/MTPS instructions, as well as the RETI/RETN. For an operating system, you normally protect the whole I/O page from user access, since not only the PSW is in there, but all kind of stuff that you do not want user programs to get access to. Data in the I/O page follows the same rules as any other memory essentially. If you have write access to it, you can write to those locations. The underlying device responding to those writes have no idea what the PSW is, and cannot enforce any protection. The special case of the PSW itself is perhaps "odd" since it actually do know what the PSW is (obviously) but it still follows the same rules as all other devices. Johnny From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Oct 25 09:51:47 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:51:47 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC59983.5000809@comcast.net> I read in the documentation the Yellow light on the Diablo disk drive will light up in about 45 seconds of inserting a disk, to show it is ready to be loaded. Does this logic all happen internally in the Diablo Disk drive, or does it require the disk interface card, or even addition alto cards to perform this "Disk Ready" yellow light logic? I need to replace the bulbs on the disk drive, but I am hoping if I can see the yellow light up, I know the disk drive is somewhat functional. Although currently, when I hit the LOAD button I do not hear/feel seeking... From nick.allen at comcast.net Mon Oct 25 10:00:59 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:00:59 -0500 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) In-Reply-To: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org> References: <4CC19149.5030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CC59BAB.1010203@comcast.net> Al, here is a link to photos of the Disk Packs, I have one more in the Diablo Drive I need to still remove and take photos of: http://picasaweb.google.com/NeXTprototype/Alto?authkey=Gv1sRgCKz9_Pm4wJ6Oag# Als From bqt at softjar.se Mon Oct 25 11:07:34 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:07:34 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC5AB46.4040504@softjar.se> On 10/25/10 16:53, William Donzelli wrote: >> > Also, the sentence starting "The VAX instruction set well revered would later on influence" needs restructured. The paragraph after the bullet points has more of the same error. > You could say that the designers of the 68000 were influenced by the > PDP-11, but I do not think you could say the same thing about the VAX. > When the 68000 design was started, the VAX was still well under wraps. > I can see no reason why DEC would have let the Motorola guys see the > developing architecture. > > Anyway, in the mid/late 1970s, heavily microcoded very CISCy > architectures were pretty much the design route of choice. It was > everywhere. It is very difficult to pin down influences. The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the VAX, if nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just extending the PDP-11. However, I also object to the discussion about "Virtual memory" as something new the VAX brought to the table. Virtual memory worked just fine on a PDP-11 as well, thank you very much, as it also worked fine on a bunch of other machines, and had been doing for quite a while. VAX stands for "Virtual Address eXtension", note the "extension". Extension normally means that you modify/extend something that already exists, in this case the virtual address. On a PDP-11, the virtual address is 16 bits, the VAX extended it to 32 bits, which is a huge improvement (and the biggest bottleneck of the PDP-11, as I'm sure all people know). The physical address on a PDP-11 is 22 bits, while the physical address on a VAX varies, but on the 11/780 I only think it was something like 24 bits. The VAX also introduced demand pageing, compared to the PDP-11, where you normally didn't do that (and not all models could even possibly do it), but demand pageing as such wasn't new either. DEC was already doing it with the PDP-10 running TOPS-20 (and other companies had also done it). Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 25 23:34:23 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:34:23 -0700 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC64754.2030305@neurotica.com> References: <4CC64754.2030305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC65A4F.8070005@jwsss.com> On 10/25/2010 8:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/25/10 11:08 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around >> that long. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 >> > > AMD was founded in the '60s! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > I sent Skeeter (the seller) my $0.02 worth, which is that this is a control store (as the boards say) for 2901 development. I think the 8080 and other logic is support system logic to support loading of this and probably controlling the debug assets for the system under test. We used systems from HiLevel in Irvine which were much larger and advanced than this system is. Note the 79 and 80 date codes on the 8080's in the system which fits for early 2901 development (or it was for me). I worked with Ultimate which had 16 and 32 bit systems based on the 2901. Honeywell did the hardware based on their disk controller design, which had all the DMA access, and the 2901 boards were coprocessors plugged into Level 6 systems. Don Woods of adventure fame was one of the engineers, from what I heard on that system. The big problem in that time was development tools, which was usually some sort of assembler, and then writable control store. I'm sure there were lots of ways to control the micromachines being debugged, both thru the 2901, and by added logic to do such debugging. Jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 26 01:24:35 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:24:35 -0700 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: <2a709bfa2d254203284689c4c0159579@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: -very very dim memory here- I had some exposure to these at the UW ACC (University of Washington Academic Computing Center) years ago. ISTR that the video is a 75 ohm input, you might be able to feed composite video in to it, the unit was cabled up to a unit with 8" drives and the guts of the word processor in it. Also those things had a bad habit of eating disks, the drive kept spinning with the heads loaded at all times, if you powered it off without going through the usual shut down procedure you more often than not corrupted the data on whatever sector the head was over when you power-cycled it. Please be kind to me, this was probably 20-30 years ago now that I was around any of these. On 10/25/10 9:36 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > On 2010 Oct 25, at 8:45 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >> The second is a Wang Word Processor, model 5506-A. Google has much on >> earlier WPs from them, but nothing on this model: >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/Wang5506AWordProcessor# >> >> What I find especially strange about this one is that it's called a >> "Word Processor," suggesting it is a complete system, yet it has ports >> for neither storage nor a printer. Could it be a terminal to a >> networked (WangNet) system? Still, the only ports on the back are >> Video and Keyboard - both of which it has built-in. They could be aux >> video in or out, or an attachment for an add-on keyboard? > > I'll hazard a guess it is a very-dumb terminal: the connectors could be > video-in for the monitor and keyboard-out, the smarts all being > elsewhere. Could open it up and see how much (if any) logic is in > there. > > >> The 5506 is practically mint. The guy I got it from said he had the >> original box but it was in such bad shape he tossed it :( There is >> still shipping plastic on the space bar and the screen. Turning it >> on shows a blank greenscreen - turning up the brightness shows >> diagonal lines, so there may be a display problem. > > Sounds like the retrace becoming visible, turning up the brightness on > a raster scan often shows this, notably the horizontal scan lines > during the vertical retrace interval show up as angled lines. > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 26 01:26:51 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:26:51 -0700 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/25/10 11:09 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> >> ?I don't know anything at all about Wang computers, but I did get a good >> chortle out of the subject line. > > You don't know how hard it was to stop there... > My favorite memory was when I was at the ACC, and some grad student had the wang word processor crash and he couldn't get it to boot up, he went up to the help-desk in the facility, tears streaming down his face "My wang won't come up" Damn near the whole ACC burst out laughing. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Oct 26 02:14:10 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BYTE magazines to be scanned? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <961741.69986.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Jason T wrote: > Why not?? Are Byte's owners still active in > publishing? Byte was sold by McGraw-Hill to CMP Media, which was subsequently bought by United Business Media. For a while, it operated as a web-based publication at www.byte.com. That now redirects to www.drdobbs.com, what's left of another storied dead-tree computer rag. Presumably, UBM owns the rights to the 80's-era back-issues, though I suppose it's possible they stayed with McGraw-Hill. --Bill From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 26 03:48:58 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 09:48:58 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: William Donzelli > > >> There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? > > Big microcoded CISC was the dominant thinking in computer architecture > at the time, so it is really hard to say that X influenced Y. True > >> The engineers did not believe the Motorola design was practical and we worried about a large 64 pin chip in the environment of a military helicopter's avionics bay (G forces, vibration, expansion, cooling etc) and it was decided to go with the 48pin Zilog Z8001 instead. > > Why not use PGA or Flatpack? For production the plan was for bare silicon mounted on hybrids but the silicon itself was large. Of course as production progressed die sizes would have been shrunk but not fast enough. We also used up to 22 layer PCBs! IIRC, samples when they became available would have been DIPs, they were for the Z8001 for sure. We used our own Elliott 920ATC computers to load code into shared RAM before the microprocessor was released from reset. I also wrote a simulator (for the Z8001) for compiler, high level assembler and other utility software development. Unfortunately working at a technical level on the leading edge does not pay very well in the UK. I was told I would not be able to progress to a higher grade without becoming a manager, so I left and became a major shareholder and director of a tiny company and have remained technical to this day. Somewhat to my surprise I found I can still out-program every other programmer we have ever employed despite now being 57 years old. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 26 04:25:04 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:25:04 +0100 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Eric Smith > > >> You guys might like this one. I didn't realize AMD has been around that long. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/AMD-AM9080-INTEL-8080-CLONE-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-1978-RARE-/220687586521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33620154d9 >> > What the item description doesn't say is that this is a development > system for Am2900 series bitslice chips. The Am9080A (equivalent to > Intel 8080A) is the only the host processor. I will watch it with great interest. I have one too but mine also has a pair of 8 inch floppy drives attached in a separate cabinet. Never powered mine up either. The 29000 processor would have been in a unit under development not within this chassis. The unit contains emulated microprogram ROM. The 8080 loads microcode into the emulated ROM cards which were connected to the unit under development with ribbon cables. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 26 04:28:12 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:28:12 +0100 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > > On 10/25/10 7:26 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the contacts are what read the holes in the card. > > nope > > cards are read with 12 brushes Or 80 brushes, I think the holes in cards were made tall and narrow to make reading them that way easier. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 07:45:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:45:59 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC6CD87.5060504@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 4:48 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > Unfortunately working at a technical level on the leading edge does > not pay very well in the UK. I was told I would not be able to > progress to a higher grade without becoming a manager, so I left and > became a major shareholder and director of a tiny company and have > remained technical to this day. Somewhat to my surprise I found I can > still out-program every other programmer we have ever employed > despite now being 57 years old. Why would it be "despite" being 57? I think it's BECAUSE you're 57. You have a great deal of experience, which is the main thing that makes someone a good programmer. Congratulations on remaining in the useful side of the company. 90% of management staff (and ALL of executive staff) is overhead and secondary to the real operation of a company. Most companies, though, seem to have it backwards. (and look where it gets them!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 26 07:55:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 05:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: from Jason T at "Oct 26, 10 01:09:58 am" Message-ID: <201010261255.o9QCtU7n020184@floodgap.com> > > I don't know anything at all about Wang computers, but I did get a good > > chortle out of the subject line. > > You don't know how hard it was to stop there... Myself, I thought it would be more Brett Favre jokes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." ----- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 26 08:09:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:09:51 +0200 Subject: Old coders [Was: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780] In-Reply-To: <4CC6CD87.5060504@neurotica.com> References: <4CC6CD87.5060504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101026130951.GA25546@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 08:45:59AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/10 4:48 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >Unfortunately working at a technical level on the leading edge does > >not pay very well in the UK. I was told I would not be able to > >progress to a higher grade without becoming a manager, so I left and > >became a major shareholder and director of a tiny company and have > >remained technical to this day. Somewhat to my surprise I found I can > >still out-program every other programmer we have ever employed > >despite now being 57 years old. > > Why would it be "despite" being 57? I think it's BECAUSE you're > 57. You have a great deal of experience, which is the main thing > that makes someone a good programmer. > > Congratulations on remaining in the useful side of the company. > 90% of management staff (and ALL of executive staff) is overhead and > secondary to the real operation of a company. Most companies, > though, seem to have it backwards. (and look where it gets them!) > Some of the most skilled coders here are above 50, some above 60 and one just retired. Experience does count for something :) /P From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Oct 26 02:53:09 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:53:09 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CC63CC7.1090907@30below.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CC63CC7.1090907@30below.com> Message-ID: <1288079589.1460.26.camel@cheetah> On Mon, 2010-10-25 at 22:28 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > The only thing I might be able to contribute to this discussion (as I'm > barely figuring out basic PAL/GAL logic in WinCUPL right now) is: Ooo, WinCupl is fun. That's where I started out, too -- programming GALs with Atmel-Wincupl and a GALBlast. > Instead of a heat gun, have you tried a mini electric oven or what we > call in the US a "toaster oven?" I've got one -- I just need to bolt on a decent temperature controller. The bimetal thermostat that it came with is a piece of junk which bases its estimate of the oven temperature on the temperature of the front metal panel... which means that it pretty much always runs flat-out. > http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm Heh. Kenneth Maxon's article is what made me want to try toaster-oven reflow :) > I will say that I have not tried it (yet) as I'm just getting further > into my hobbies after about 5 years; I'm down to one job instead of 3... Ugh... I've ended up doing "odd jobs" for people to cover the costs of building the DiscFerret. My entire savings are basically gone, as is my testgear budget (I was saving up for a spectrum analyser -- emphasis: "was"). Ah well, it's been a wild (and somewhat fun) ride, at least. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 26 04:05:16 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:05:16 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC699CC.4050801@softjar.se> On 10/26/10 04:20, Roger Holmes wrote: >> > From: Mr Ian Primus >> > And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best:) > I think I'm right saying the Manchester 'Baby' had a 32 bit word in 1948, actually 32 of them on one Williams tube. However as it was a serial machine the data path to memory was actually one bit wide so it depends how you define bit size, but I was taught it was the largest addressable unit of memory and by that definition it had a 32 bit word. What does "largest addressable unit of memory" means? I totally fail to understand that. Sounds like "the largest memory chip that can be utilized", but that can hardly be the meaning. > There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? That the PDP-11 influenced the VAX there can be no doubt about. The the PDP-11 influenced the 68K seems very probable when looking at the architectures, but that is guessing on our part. William Donzelli write: >> > There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? > Big microcoded CISC was the dominant thinking in computer architecture > at the time, so it is really hard to say that X influenced Y. Well, the fact that DEC explicitly stated that the VAX would be like the PDP-11, but extended to 32 bits seems like an obvious statement that the PDP-11 influenced the VAX. Not to mention the fact that they used the same peripherial buses, and at VMS V1, most of the applications were just the RSX programs moved straight over. Oh, and don't forget the compatibility mode in the VAX, which made it execute PDP-11 code. :-) As for the 68K, we are making more of a guess, but it seems like a fairly educated guess that the 68K was inspired by the PDP-11 (although I'd say the 68K is way inferior to the PDP-11...) Johnny From tlindner at macmess.org Tue Oct 26 08:58:55 2010 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 06:58:55 -0700 Subject: BYTE magazines to be scanned? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1jqyj6w.avyisy1uqn568M%tlindner@macmess.org> Jason T wrote: > > Has anyone ever done this? > > Many people are starting to scan and post magazines I started a project to digitize old Color Computer magazines. http://cocomag.dyndns.org/TheRainbow.shtml It uses the Distributed Proofreaders model to bring the small community of enthusiasts together. -- tim lindner tlindner at macmess.org Bright From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Oct 26 10:10:43 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:10:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: <4CC5EBA1.2090301@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > JP Hindin wrote: > > Just picked up an nCUBE 2 from a list member, but I know almost nothing > > about the machine (beyond wikipedia and my own examination of the machine > > physically). I have the Sun 4/470 that front-ends it and, in theory, all > > the software. But I've got no idea on how to actually _use_ it. > > Oooh, nice. I culled a ad for those from October 1989's issue of "What's new > in Computing" - sounded like a nice setup (up to 8192 processors, 60 billion > ips, 27 billion flops). > > The ad also claimed that NCube would be releasing a SysV-based OS for it so > that it could "run UNIX apps" - which to my mind is different from it being a > bunch of slave processors with a separate machine running UNIX and acting as > the front-end. Perhaps that never actually happened - but are you sure that > your Sun is the machine interface, rather than just there as a diagnostic > console or something? > > How physically large is it? Hard to tell from the picture in the ad that I > have, but with a max of around 8000 processors, I imagine it's a pretty hefty > beast. Hey Jules; Sorry if I got your hopes up, it's just a little baby nCUBE - 64 processors. :) http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/nCUBE_2/ You can see it suffered a little physical damage. It's an ex-Purdue machine so, personally, I blame Pat Finnegan. I'm sure it's his fault. There were a series of coloured buttons on the back but they are no more, which kind of makes it difficult to determine, from the outset, which button was the "START" and which was the "STOP"... or whatever it was they may have been. I am not positive of how it operates at all, but the previous owner said that was how it functioned. I'm vaguely tempted to call the people that now own nCUBE, ARRIS, but since it went through three holding company changes, I highly doubt they have anything on the pre-Video on Demand nCUBEs. - JP From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 10:41:40 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:41:40 -0500 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: <2a709bfa2d254203284689c4c0159579@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2a709bfa2d254203284689c4c0159579@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'll hazard a guess it is a very-dumb terminal: the connectors could be > video-in for the monitor and keyboard-out, the smarts all being elsewhere. This is about all that makes sense to me, too, given those ports. I'm still quite surprised though that no one has seen one and that Google comes up empty, too. And this isn't a one-off product from some garage - Wang was a major manufacturer for a time. How much other unknown ccmp is out there? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 11:00:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:00:41 -0400 Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC6FB29.4060807@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 11:10 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >>> Just picked up an nCUBE 2 from a list member, but I know almost nothing >>> about the machine (beyond wikipedia and my own examination of the machine >>> physically). I have the Sun 4/470 that front-ends it and, in theory, all >>> the software. But I've got no idea on how to actually _use_ it. >> >> Oooh, nice. I culled a ad for those from October 1989's issue of "What's new >> in Computing" - sounded like a nice setup (up to 8192 processors, 60 billion >> ips, 27 billion flops). >> >> The ad also claimed that NCube would be releasing a SysV-based OS for it so >> that it could "run UNIX apps" - which to my mind is different from it being a >> bunch of slave processors with a separate machine running UNIX and acting as >> the front-end. Perhaps that never actually happened - but are you sure that >> your Sun is the machine interface, rather than just there as a diagnostic >> console or something? >> >> How physically large is it? Hard to tell from the picture in the ad that I >> have, but with a max of around 8000 processors, I imagine it's a pretty hefty >> beast. > > Sorry if I got your hopes up, it's just a little baby nCUBE - 64 > processors. :) > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/nCUBE_2/ > > You can see it suffered a little physical damage. It's an ex-Purdue > machine so, personally, I blame Pat Finnegan. I'm sure it's his fault. > There were a series of coloured buttons on the back but they are no more, > which kind of makes it difficult to determine, from the outset, which > button was the "START" and which was the "STOP"... or whatever it was they > may have been. > > I am not positive of how it operates at all, but the previous owner said > that was how it functioned. I'm vaguely tempted to call the people that > now own nCUBE, ARRIS, but since it went through three holding company > changes, I highly doubt they have anything on the pre-Video on Demand > nCUBEs. I thought all nCube machines acted as attached processors that are accessed via libraries on the host (SunOS) OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 26 11:26:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 09:26:36 -0700 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CC65B54.7040902@brouhaha.com> References: <4CC65B54.7040902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC7013C.4030507@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/10 9:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > What the item description doesn't say is that this is a development system for Am2900 series bitslice chips. And is missing the floppy controller and external drives It is a CP/M system. I should have all of the software for it. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Oct 26 12:18:23 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:18:23 -0400 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: <2a709bfa2d254203284689c4c0159579@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I'll hazard a guess it is a very-dumb terminal: the connectors could be >> video-in for the monitor and keyboard-out, the smarts all being elsewhere. > > This is about all that makes sense to me, too, given those ports. I'm > still quite surprised though that no one has seen one and that Google > comes up empty, too. And this isn't a one-off product from some > garage - Wang was a major manufacturer for a time. > > How much other unknown ccmp is out there? I have one. It integrates with my Wang word processing base. Has a printer and disk drive built in the base. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Oct 26 12:27:23 2010 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:27:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71156977.258352.1288114043372.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I'm getting into this a bit late (I was travelling last week), but I have a few comments, based on 18 years of working at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:22:50 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] >> >> On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the >> > heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why >> > it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. >> >> A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are >> needed. > >That's _exactly_ my point. Having atbitrary limits may cause problems >later on. > There could be an arbitrary limit because that is what some database programmer decided was sufficient when the collections program was written (cf. Y2K). >> >> > And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not >> > just a number for each artefact starting at 1? >> >> It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of >> acquisition. ?But the bean-counters care. > >Ah no, you misnderstood me... > >Presumanbly there is a database of the artefacts in the museum, indexed >by the indentification numbers. That database includes more details about >the particular object, ?things like (I would hope), options, serial >number (s), version, etc. All we've been discussing. I see no reason why >the date of acquisition (full date, not just the year), source (maybe >'anonymous donor' :-)), and the like should not be stored there as well. >It's far better to store too much information than too little. > >But what I am wondering is why the year of acquisition should be a field >in the indentifier. > The Anthropology collections at FMNH were numbered sequentially, which was a bit of a PIA. Having looked in the catalog ledger books, I might know that artifact 186276 is a Nazca pot collected by Alfred Kroeber in 1927, but is 186277 from the same collecting field trip or is it something from Tibet? Having a number like 1927.23.49 for that pot would make it easier to find associated artifacts. For my field work, I used RegionSite-Feature.artifact, such as M10-5.26. In the end, though, any cataloging system is arbitrary. > >-tony I would also second the comment (Fred's?) that cataloging needs to be done by someone with knowledge of the material being cataloged. As to cataloging individual boards within a computer, we did not have a comparable situation -- the FMNH's artifacts are usually single items. Where there were, for example, multiple panels in a carved wall, the panels could be numbered 98123.1, 98123.2, etc. The question that has been raised in regards to computers is, where do you stop dividing the artifact??Again, the decision is somewhat arbitrary. The boards might not be numbered, but presumably there is a description of the computer on record?that lists its major components. Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 12:52:04 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:52:04 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> Will wrote: > Why not use PGA or Flatpack? Because 64-pin PGAs and flatpacks didn't exist in 1978. Even the 64-pin DIP was still fairly new. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 26 13:14:09 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:14:09 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82C09A31-400E-4EDB-88E4-D1C479A710A1@microspot.co.uk> > From: Johnny Billquist > On 10/26/10 04:20, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>>> From: Mr Ian Primus >>>> And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best:) >> I think I'm right saying the Manchester 'Baby' had a 32 bit word in 1948, actually 32 of them on one Williams tube. However as it was a serial machine the data path to memory was actually one bit wide so it depends how you define bit size, but I was taught it was the largest addressable unit of memory and by that definition it had a 32 bit word. > > What does "largest addressable unit of memory" means? I totally fail to > understand that. Sounds like "the largest memory chip that can be > utilized", but that can hardly be the meaning. Compare with another thing I was taught. A byte is the smallest addressable unit of memory. By this definition I have worked on machines with bytes sizes of 3, 8, 18, 24, 36 and (I think) 60. In most of the latter ones, a byte was also a word. I guess you exclude memory to memory block move instructions, then consider the instructions which can load and save data and find the one which acts on the largest number of bits. I think by this definition a 68000, a Z8000, and the Manchester Baby all had 32 bit words. The VAX may have had 32 bit of 64 bit words even if it had just a 32 bit data path. My ICT 1301 has 48 bits words and 48 bit bytes even though its mill was only 4 bits wide. The data path from core memory to the 'A' register was 50 bits in parallel (it had two parity bits), but the data path between registers was only 4 bits, or in one case two sets of 4 bits. It was a serial/parallel architecture which allowed the end user price to be kept just below 250,000 pounds for a 5 tape deck mag tape machine with card reader, card punch, line printer, one drum and 2000 (decimal) words of core. Sorry for rambling and thanks for all who commented on my 41 years of programming experience. > >> There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? > > That the PDP-11 influenced the VAX there can be no doubt about. > The the PDP-11 influenced the 68K seems very probable when looking at > the architectures, but that is guessing on our part. > > William Donzelli write: >>>> There was talk of the VAX design being the inspiration for the Motorola 68k. Isn't it more likely that the PDP11 influenced the design of both the VAX and the 68k? >> Big microcoded CISC was the dominant thinking in computer architecture >> at the time, so it is really hard to say that X influenced Y. > > Well, the fact that DEC explicitly stated that the VAX would be like the > PDP-11, but extended to 32 bits seems like an obvious statement that the > PDP-11 influenced the VAX. Not to mention the fact that they used the > same peripherial buses, and at VMS V1, most of the applications were > just the RSX programs moved straight over. Oh, and don't forget the > compatibility mode in the VAX, which made it execute PDP-11 code. :-) > > As for the 68K, we are making more of a guess, but it seems like a > fairly educated guess that the 68K was inspired by the PDP-11 (although Agreed. > I'd say the 68K is way inferior to the PDP-11...) If you say so, I never used a PDP-11. > > Johnny From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 26 13:26:29 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:26:29 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5AB46.4040504@softjar.se> References: <4CC5AB46.4040504@softjar.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:08 AM 1. > The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the VAX, if > nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just extending the > PDP-11. 2. > However, I also object to the discussion about "Virtual memory" as > something new the VAX brought to the table. 3. > Virtual memory worked just fine on a PDP-11 as well, thank you very > much, as it also worked fine on a bunch of other machines, and had been > doing for quite a while. 4. > VAX stands for "Virtual Address eXtension", note the "extension". > Extension normally means that you modify/extend something that already > exists, in this case the virtual address. On a PDP-11, the virtual > address is 16 bits, the VAX extended it to 32 bits, which is a huge > improvement (and the biggest bottleneck of the PDP-11, as I'm sure all > people know). The physical address on a PDP-11 is 22 bits, while the > physical address on a VAX varies, but on the 11/780 I only think it was > something like 24 bits. 5. > The VAX also introduced demand pageing, compared to the PDP-11, where > you normally didn't do that (and not all models could even possibly do > it), but demand pageing as such wasn't new either. DEC was already doing > it with the PDP-10 running TOPS-20 (and other companies had also done it). Addressing 1, 2, 4, and 5: The "Extension" in 'Virtual Address Extension" does not refer to extending the virtual address in the PDP-11, but rather to extending the PDP-11 architecture with virtual addressing. The PDP-11's 16-bit address is real, not virtual in the usual definition; the use of memory management to select from within an 18- or 22-bit memory space does not make it virtual. The VAX-11 (note that "-11" in the names of the first models!) added the use of demand-paged virtual memory (that is to say, disk-based storage) to the PDP-11, then expanded the instruction set into the new 32-bit word size. Addressing 2 and 5: Burroughs introduced the B5000, the first computer with virtual memory (segmented rather than paged) in 1961; the British brought out the Atlas in 1962. Multics used both segmentation and paging on the GE-645, beginning in 1964. DEC provided a segmented memory model in the PDP-6 (1964) and PDP-10 (1967); BB&N created a pager for the PDP-10 and brought TENEX, with demand paging, to the world c. 1970. When DEC licensed TENEX and modified it for the KL-10 processor (born at the Stanford AI Lab as the SuperFoonly!), they added the working-set concept which had been discovered by (IIRC) Denning in his research on demand-paged memory systems, and christened the result "TOPS-20". Addressing 3: I don't believe that there was ever demand-paged virtual memory on the PDP-11, but I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. Please point me at documentation for an operating system which did that. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 13:52:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 11:52:43 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC6C10B.32259.8320F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 10:52, Eric Smith wrote: > Will wrote: > > Why not use PGA or Flatpack? > Because 64-pin PGAs and flatpacks didn't exist in 1978. Even the > 64-pin DIP was still fairly new. Well, maybe not from US manufacturers, but consider the NEC uPD768. 64-pin ceramic flatpack, 1978. The quad flat package itself dates from at least the late 1960s. See, for example, the Motorola XC177 in case 618, a 32-lead quad ceramic package. ISTR that the Japanese at the time were somewhat ahead of the US in terms of high-density packaging. Didn't they originate the 64-pin 0.050" spaced DIP? I certainly recall seeing the fine-pitch DIP on a lot of Japanese equipment. I suspect that IBM and other mainframe manufacturers had some proprietary high-density packaging at that time as well. Bottom line is that in 1978 there were other alternatives to the 64- pin 0.100" spaced giant DIP. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 14:02:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:02:59 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC6C10B.32259.8320F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> <4CC6C10B.32259.8320F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com> On 10/26/2010 11:52 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR that the Japanese at the time were somewhat ahead of the US in > terms of high-density packaging. Didn't they originate the 64-pin > 0.050" spaced DIP? I haven't seen a 0.050 inch pitch DIP. Perhaps you're referring to the 0.070 inch pitch "Shrink-DIP", which was very common for a while from Japanese vendors. Rockwell and Motorola used a 0.050 inch pitch QUIP (each row on 0.100 inch pitch), Rockwell for 6500-series microcontrollers and related parts, and Motorola for the MC10800 series ECL bit-slice components. I don't recall exactly when the MC10800 series was introduced; perhaps that actually could have been used for the MC68000 had Motorola wished to do so. (Note that Intel, Zilog, and AMP used the term "QUIP" for an entirely different ceramic leadless package.) The JEDEC 68-position ceramic leadless chip carriers appeared around 1981, and Motorola offered the MC68000 in that package. The PLCC appeared a few years later. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Oct 26 14:18:37 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:18:37 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' References: Message-ID: <3B2B26113AD1401C97FA546B96DA5BF3@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:28:12 +0100 From: Roger Holmes Subject: Re: What are these IBM 'thingys' > From: Al Kossow > > On 10/25/10 7:26 PM, leaknoil wrote: >> It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the contacts >> are what read the holes in the card. > > nope > > cards are read with 12 brushes Or 80 brushes, I think the holes in cards were made tall and narrow to make reading them that way easier. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Exactly. In those electro-mechanical days cards were almost always read in parallel, i.e. long edge first, because that's how those machines worked; rotary selectors, type bars, sorter gates, etc., the timing of the entire system was based on and ran in sync with the card moving through the various digit positions 0 to 9 (and 11 & 12 for symbols and alpha). Want to add two numbers? Take a rotary 10-position switch and connect it mechanically through a solenoid-operated clutch so that as the card moves so does the switch, each position corresponding to a vertical location on the card. Starting with the switch in the 0 position, read the first card, engage the clutch when it passes the 0 position and drop the clutch when a brush makes contact through a hole in the card. Do the same with the second card and the rotary switch will read the sum (with a few extra solenoids and relays to handle carries). Want to print it? Simple: you have a type bar with the digits in reverse order, again synchronized to the rest of the machine. Start rotating the switch and moving the type bar together and when the switch hits 0 fire the type hammer. Want to sort your invoices by client number? Take the card deck over to your 08x sorter, those machines you've all seen in old movies where the cards move across and drop into different columns or pockets (usually flying out and across the room for amusement - it wasn't funny when it really did happen!). Rotate the column selector knob to the LSD column (it only had one moveable brush) and press Start. As the card moves, it passes a set of chutes each leading to one of those pockets and when the brush makes contact through the hole the card is diverted to whichever chute it's under at that exact moment. Go through all the cards, put the 10 piles back together in sequence, repeat for each column up to the MSD and presto, they're sorted. Ah, the good old days... I'd love to see some kind of emulation of these systems... When computers came along the whole paradigm shifted from parallel processing to serial, and those card readers did indeed read the card from left to right with only 12 brushes (more likely optical sensors) instead of top to bottom with 80, although IIRC there were some combined serial and parallel binary card formats. Of course now we've seen the error of our ways and have returned to parallel processing; a modern card reader would no doubt read cards top to bottom again, with each column connected to its own CPU. mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 13:04:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:04:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: <4CC59983.5000809@comcast.net> from "Nick Allen" at Oct 25, 10 09:51:47 am Message-ID: > > I read in the documentation the Yellow light on the Diablo disk drive > will light up in about 45 seconds of inserting a disk, to show it is > ready to be loaded. Does this logic all happen internally in the Diablo > Disk drive, or does it require the disk interface card, or even addition > alto cards to perform this "Disk Ready" yellow light logic? If I rememebr the Model 30 (which is very similar) correctly, it does not need the cotnroller to go ready. It's a good idea to haev the terminator fitted, though, I seem ot remember that on some drive the write gate line can become asserted if it floats, leading to a corrupted disk. For the same reason, if you don't have the controller boards fitted or powerred, it's a good idea to unpluy the controller cable from the drive. I seem to rememebr that. at power on, the Model 30 notices it;'s not getting any index pulses from the (non-existant) disk, and after some seconds it wil lunlock the front door. At this point you can open the door and slide in the disk pack. Then close the door and press the appropriate button. The disk should then spin up, and when the drive thinks it's u to speed, it will load the heads. The Modle 30 is odd here i nthat this is not done my moving theh eads from the home position towards the spindle and thus having the heads come off a ramp. Istead there is a load solenoid on the side of the positioner which is energised. Now, since thrre is no sync/servo information read from the disk iself, the drive will go ready id the disk is totally blank, or if there's a problem with the heads or read/write electronics. Now what I would do is temporarily disconnect the load solenoid. Then power up, insert the pack and spin up. The heads then can't load, but thr disk should spin up, and the drive go ready. If it does, and the spindle seems to be spinning properly, then you can power down, reconnect the solenoid and try it for real (and hope you don't get a headcrash.) > > I need to replace the bulbs on the disk drive, but I am hoping if I can IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and are not easy to get. Last time I needed one, to put in an HP59306 relay actuator, actually, I repaired the old one (!). I could easily get wire-ended bulbs of the correct electrical rating, so I desoldered the connections on the cap of the defelctive midget flange blub, wrapped it in paper and crushed the glass with pliers, then cleaned out the base cap. Inserted the wire-ended bulb and soldered the wires ot the base contact and the cap. > see the yellow light up, I know the disk drive is somewhat functional. > Although currently, when I hit the LOAD button I do not hear/feel seeking... I don;t think you will get any seeking without having the controller working. Are you talking about the LOAD button on the Alto here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 13:12:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:12:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC5AB46.4040504@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Oct 25, 10 06:07:34 pm Message-ID: > VAX stands for "Virtual Address eXtension", note the "extension". I always thought that VAX-11 meant it was a PDP11 that had the 'eXtension' of 'Virtual Addresses'. > Extension normally means that you modify/extend something that already > exists, in this case the virtual address. On a PDP-11, the virtual > address is 16 bits, the VAX extended it to 32 bits, which is a huge > improvement (and the biggest bottleneck of the PDP-11, as I'm sure all > people know). The physical address on a PDP-11 is 22 bits, while the > physical address on a VAX varies, but on the 11/780 I only think it was > something like 24 bits. Hmmm. I was under the impression there was a difference between virtual memory/addresses and an MMU. Namely that the former impliled a larger logical address space than the physcial address space and that if a program tried to access a memory page that wasn't currently mapped to a physcial area of memory, the OS would be given the chance to load the approraite data from disk (or whatever) into RAM and map the page appropriately. The 11/780 logica address space is larger than the physical one, the (memory managed) PDP11's is not. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 15:05:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> > >> It looks to me like a punch card exactly fits in there and the > >> contacts are what read the holes in the card. > > nope > > cards are read with 12 brushes On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > Or 80 brushes, I think the holes in cards were made tall and narrow to > make reading them that way easier. "face down, nine edge first" (the way Watson was buried) or a matrix of 80 * 12 or a matrix of 40 * 12 (Wang clamshell port-a-punch reader) My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM patented the shape of the hole! That resulted in a few short-lived attempts at round-hole cards, etc.), and patented the "brush against brass roller". That resulted in a few matrix readers, soon followed by CDC and others finally getting around to making light-and-photocell readers, that so out-performed IBM's readers that it significantly strengthened IBM's competitors. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 26 15:14:55 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:14:55 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Back in the mid to late 80's I used to see all of these IBM tech's on the city buses and in the streets with these handheld devices, they were standard IBM off-white with a small keyboard on them, the size of a footprint of a VHS cassette, but about 1.5 times as thick... They were using them to send and receive text messages to the service center and to one another (Pre-cursor to AOL IM'ing I suppose...) This was in New York City, I'm assuming it must've been either across an early text message pager type network or a nascent cellular setup that IBM established for its service techs... Anyone have one of these? Know what they are called? Model#, photo's, spec's, etc? I would love to get one if possible. Thanks, curt From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 26 15:19:00 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:19:00 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> > Hi, > > Back in the mid to late 80's I used to see all of these IBM tech's > on the city buses and in the streets with these handheld devices, they > were standard IBM off-white with a small keyboard on them, the size of > a footprint of a VHS cassette, but about 1.5 times as thick... > > They were using them to send and receive text messages to the > service center and to one another (Pre-cursor to AOL IM'ing I suppose...) > > This was in New York City, I'm assuming it must've been either > across an early text message pager type network or a nascent cellular > setup that IBM established for its service techs... IBM PCradio? From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 26 15:33:14 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:33:14 -0400 Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010261633.14961.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, October 26, 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > You can see it suffered a little physical damage. It's an ex-Purdue > machine so, personally, I blame Pat Finnegan. I'm sure it's his > fault. Hey, now.... As surprising as it is, I'm not Mr. Purdue. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 15:35:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <3B2B26113AD1401C97FA546B96DA5BF3@vl420mt> References: <3B2B26113AD1401C97FA546B96DA5BF3@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20101026132920.D71732@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, MikeS wrote: > Of course now we've seen the error of our ways and have returned to parallel > processing; a modern card reader would no doubt read cards top to bottom > again, with each column connected to its own CPU. 80 12 bit CPUs? Naah. just one (or 12) 80 bit CPUs? On nit to pick: "NINE edge first" They were USUALLY read bottom to top. 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 X Y (X,Y were sometimes called 11,12) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 26 15:40:00 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:40:00 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> You have any photo's of one of the units? It might've been over a packet radio network at the time... Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Back in the mid to late 80's I used to see all of these IBM tech's >> on the city buses and in the streets with these handheld devices, >> they were standard IBM off-white with a small keyboard on them, the >> size of a footprint of a VHS cassette, but about 1.5 times as thick... >> >> They were using them to send and receive text messages to the >> service center and to one another (Pre-cursor to AOL IM'ing I >> suppose...) >> >> This was in New York City, I'm assuming it must've been either >> across an early text message pager type network or a nascent cellular >> setup that IBM established for its service techs... > > IBM PCradio? > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Oct 26 15:47:22 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:47:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: <201010261633.14961.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday, October 26, 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > > You can see it suffered a little physical damage. It's an ex-Purdue > > machine so, personally, I blame Pat Finnegan. I'm sure it's his > > fault. > > Hey, now.... > > As surprising as it is, I'm not Mr. Purdue. :) ;) Any chance there's still the original documentation in a central facility at Purdue? (A long, long shot with the hope they're anal-retentive organised out there) - JP From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 15:53:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:53:30 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CC6C10B.32259.8320F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC6DD5A.4383.F333A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 12:02, Eric Smith wrote: > I haven't seen a 0.050 inch pitch DIP. Perhaps you're referring to > the 0.070 inch pitch "Shrink-DIP", which was very common for a while > from Japanese vendors. Yes, my error--e.g. HD64180-style package. I remember seeing the same package in Japanese 70's era telephone answering machines. > The JEDEC 68-position ceramic leadless chip carriers appeared around > 1981, and Motorola offered the MC68000 in that package. The PLCC > appeared a few years later. The ceramic LCC was at least known by 1981--we got early steppings of the 186 and 286 in that configuration. With the 68K it was pretty close in terms of timeframe. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 26 16:01:22 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:01:22 -0700 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 26, at 1:40 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > You have any photo's of one of the units? It might've been over a packet radio network at the time... google gives slightly different result for "IBM PCradio" and "IBM PC radio". Photos: http://www.sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=pcradio From http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1991.html: "The company announces the IBM 9075 PCradio, a battery-powered personal computer that lets mobile workers, such as service technicians, get information, order parts and update customer records without leaving their job sites via radio, cellular or telephone communications." From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Oct 26 16:13:15 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:13:15 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> Nope, this wasn't a laptop, it was no bigger then a very thick VHS tape with (what I'm remembering...) a 2, maybe 4 line X 80 LCD window on it.... Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 26, at 1:40 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > You have any photo's of one of the units? It might've been over a > packet radio network at the time... > > google gives slightly different result for "IBM PCradio" and "IBM PC > radio". > > Photos: > http://www.sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=pcradio > > From http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1991.html: > "The company announces the IBM 9075 PCradio, a battery-powered > personal computer > that lets mobile workers, such as service technicians, get > information, > order parts and update customer records without leaving their job > sites > via radio, cellular or telephone communications." > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 16:23:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:23:43 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CC746DF.70108@neurotica.com> Ohhh yes, I've seen those. I believe they are POCSAG (pager protocol) terminals. Motorola made a bunch of those, possibly other companies as well. I've seen utility companies use them as well, right around that time. -Dave On 10/26/10 5:13 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Nope, this wasn't a laptop, it was no bigger then a very thick VHS tape > with (what I'm remembering...) a 2, maybe 4 line X 80 LCD window on it.... > > > > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2010 Oct 26, at 1:40 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> > You have any photo's of one of the units? It might've been over a >> packet radio network at the time... >> >> google gives slightly different result for "IBM PCradio" and "IBM PC >> radio". >> >> Photos: >> http://www.sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=pcradio >> >> From http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1991.html: >> "The company announces the IBM 9075 PCradio, a battery-powered >> personal computer >> that lets mobile workers, such as service technicians, get information, >> order parts and update customer records without leaving their job sites >> via radio, cellular or telephone communications." >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 16:32:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:32:33 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC6DD5A.4383.F333A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com>, <4CC6DD5A.4383.F333A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC6E681.428.116F312@cclist.sydex.com> Anent chp packaging... In my hellbox, I've got a couple of Fujitsu MB8869 chips--I think they're CRT controllers, (but that's just a guess; I've never seen a datasheet). They date from around 1980 or earlier. They're 64-pin PGA packages--ceramic with a metal "hood". Pins are on 0.100" centers. Not mounted in ZIF sockets, but rather just a conventional friction- fit socket. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 26 16:57:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:57:03 -0700 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC74EAF.5070602@bitsavers.org> > IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and are not easy to get. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180572129078 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:14:43 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:14:43 -0500 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC746DF.70108@neurotica.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> <4CC746DF.70108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Ohhh yes, I've seen those. ?I believe they are POCSAG (pager protocol) > terminals. ?Motorola made a bunch of those, possibly other companies as > well. ?I've seen utility companies use them as well, right around that time. Yep...working retail near Motorola HQ (Schaumburg, IL) in the mid 90s, I'd see their guys come in with those all the time. And I have seen the IBM-branded ones in the hands of mainframe techs a bit later on. Might even have seen some for sale at hamfests once they were retired. From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 26 17:15:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:15:34 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CC75306.3020701@snarc.net> > Nope, this wasn't a laptop Nor was the PCradio. It's only shaped like a laptop, but it's really small like a modern netbook, or even smaller, and kind of clunky. But if it definitely wasn't a clamshell of any size, then it could have been the same basic idea. I have interviewed some of the people who designed the PCradio, and learned that there definitely were other versions. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 26 17:15:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:15:38 -0600 Subject: Old coders [Was: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:09:51 +0200. <20101026130951.GA25546@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20101026130951.GA25546 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > [...] Experience does count for something :) On the other hand I know people in their 30s that haven't kept their skills up since they went to college and are in danger of become obsolete. Everyone has experience in terms of marking time on a calendar. Its not surviving the Grim Reaper's axe that is important, its what you did during that time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 26 17:15:58 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:15:58 -0400 Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010261815.58410.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, October 26, 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 26, 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > > > You can see it suffered a little physical damage. It's an > > > ex-Purdue machine so, personally, I blame Pat Finnegan. I'm sure > > > it's his fault. > > > > Hey, now.... > > > > As surprising as it is, I'm not Mr. Purdue. :) > > ;) > > Any chance there's still the original documentation in a central > facility at Purdue? (A long, long shot with the hope they're > anal-retentive organised out there) Not really. I think that it was a part of the long-gone Electrical Engineering Parallel Processing lab. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 17:18:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:18:15 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> <46585aed0c6038f842b64d154823a598@cs.ubc.ca> <4CC7446B.7010405@atarimuseum.com> <4CC746DF.70108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC753A7.30802@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 6:14 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Ohhh yes, I've seen those. I believe they are POCSAG (pager protocol) >> terminals. Motorola made a bunch of those, possibly other companies as >> well. I've seen utility companies use them as well, right around that time. > > Yep...working retail near Motorola HQ (Schaumburg, IL) in the mid 90s, > I'd see their guys come in with those all the time. And I have seen > the IBM-branded ones in the hands of mainframe techs a bit later on. > > Might even have seen some for sale at hamfests once they were retired. Yes I've seen them at hamfests and surplus dealers. I always wanted to play with one, but they seemed very opaque at the time, not much information available about them. Now the protocols and stuff are readily available, but not so much in the late 90s when those boxes were floating around for cheap. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 26 17:36:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:36:27 -0600 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:41:40 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I'll hazard a guess it is a very-dumb terminal: the connectors could be > > video-in for the monitor and keyboard-out, the smarts all being elsewhere. > > This is about all that makes sense to me, too, given those ports. I'm > still quite surprised though that no one has seen one and that Google > comes up empty, too. And this isn't a one-off product from some > garage - Wang was a major manufacturer for a time. Looks like you have the standalone terminal that goes with the 2200 LVP system described here. (Look at the photo.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:37:34 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: Old coders [Was: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780] In-Reply-To: References: <20101026130951.GA25546@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <20101026130951.GA25546 at Update.UU.SE>, > ? ?Pontus Pihlgren writes: > >> [...] Experience does count for something :) > > On the other hand I know people in their 30s that haven't kept their > skills up since they went to college and are in danger of become > obsolete. > > Everyone has experience in terms of marking time on a calendar. ?Its > not surviving the Grim Reaper's axe that is important, its what you > did during that time. Quite true. I've been luck to have always stayed in a technical role and today, at age 47, I'm still writing code and building systems. I've found it a fun trip to keep my skills "relevant" but then again, I've been told that it's my curiosity and willingness to dive into technical issues that makes me important. For example, I work with a bunch of Java developers who have a very limited and narrow view of the world. If it's outside their comfort zone, they don't want it. I hope I never become that way. And in the end, it's what you do with your time that determines you... and if your are happy, then be happy! Mark From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 26 17:39:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: nCUBE fans out there In-Reply-To: from JP Hindin at "Oct 26, 10 03:47:22 pm" Message-ID: <201010262239.o9QMdXJs014320@floodgap.com> > Any chance there's still the original documentation in a central facility > at Purdue? (A long, long shot with the hope they're anal-retentive > organised out there) I asked some Purdue friends of mine over Twitter. One remembers the machine vaguely, but he doesn't remember where or what it was doing specifically. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself floating home. -- Han Solo -- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 26 17:41:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:41:20 -0600 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:25:04 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Roger Holmes writes: > ither. The 29000 processor [...] 2900, not 29000. The 29xx is a bit-slice CPU design made up of a bunch of chips. The 29000 is a single chip CPU that came later. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:51:43 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:51:43 -0500 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Richard wrote: > Looks like you have the standalone terminal that goes with the 2200 > LVP system described here. ?(Look at the photo.) > It sure does....hmm, I wouldn't have expected this term to be that old. Further down the page, it looks like it was used with the big WP box (2200LVP,) too. I also acquired an odd white box that almost looks like an IBM terminal controller. It's got the WangNet (one coax, one BNC) connection on it as well as a 25pin (serial?) connector. It turns on and hums and that's it. I'll post its details as soon as I clean it up. At some point all this stuff will be up for trade, so if there's anyone out there more in to Wangs than I am, stay tuned... -j From chd at chdickman.com Tue Oct 26 17:59:31 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:59:31 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip Message-ID: Was there ever such a thing as a 74x00 series LED driver that did proper hex decoding and not simply BCD? I can't seem to find that there was. The topic of why split octal was used on some early micro-computers came up on a list. After doing a search for a TTL LED driver that does hex, the answer is probably that there were no single chip option for hex displays. Split octal was just easier. This kind of joins in with the TIL311 discussion. It was a TTL compatible hex display, but expensive at the time. -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Oct 26 18:27:20 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:27:20 -0400 Subject: Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte Message-ID: I snagged a copy of the first three volumes of this set from the company library when they were thinning the stacks. They were published by The People's Computer Company in 1980. They are a really cool snapshot of the microcomputer stuff that was doing on in the late '70s. Is there an online copy? -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 18:47:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:47:27 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 18:59, Charles Dickman wrote: > Was there ever such a thing as a 74x00 series LED driver that did > proper hex decoding and not simply BCD? I can't seem to find that > there was. Sure, the Fairchild 9370, 9368 and 9374. All include a latch (a nice feature). --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 26 18:47:29 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:47:29 -0500 Subject: Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chuck, Thats a real find! I used to have a set too. I must have keyed in that 8080 FFT a dozen times ;) The first volume is for sale at Powel's for $60.... Randy > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:27:20 -0400 > Subject: Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte > From: chd at chdickman.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I snagged a copy of the first three volumes of this set from the company > library when they were thinning the stacks. > > They were published by The People's Computer Company in 1980. > > They are a really cool snapshot of the microcomputer stuff that was doing on > in the late '70s. Is there an online copy? > > -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Oct 26 18:51:31 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:51:31 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Were they very common? Fairchild was pretty early in LEDs too I think? -chuck On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Oct 2010 at 18:59, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > Was there ever such a thing as a 74x00 series LED driver that did > > proper hex decoding and not simply BCD? I can't seem to find that > > there was. > > Sure, the Fairchild 9370, 9368 and 9374. All include a latch (a nice > feature). > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 19:03:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:03:25 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC709DD.951.1A11291@cclist.sydex.com> > On 26 Oct 2010 at 18:59, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > Was there ever such a thing as a 74x00 series LED driver that did > > proper hex decoding and not simply BCD? I can't seem to find that > > there was. Also, any of the bipolar PROMs of at least 32 bits (8x4) would do, e.g. 74S188/288, 82S23/123, etc. You could even roll your own with a diode matrix and a 4-to-16 demux. Myself, I've always wondered about a BCD-to-Roman numeral decoder IC. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 19:07:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:07:07 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: , <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CC70ABB.22837.1A4741B@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 19:51, Charles Dickman wrote: > Were they very common? Fairchild was pretty early in LEDs too I > think? Montsanto (they of Roundup fame) were the early birds in LEDs. I remember ordering a 4-LED sample pack from them. National was a second source for the Fairchild ICs (i.e. look for parts with a DM93xx part number). I don't know that they were particularly uncommon. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 19:13:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:13:14 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> Charles Dickman wrote: > The topic of why split octal was used on some early micro-computers came up > on a list. After doing a search for a TTL LED driver that does hex, the > answer is probably that there were no single chip option for hex displays. > Split octal was just easier. The 8080 instruction encoding is based on 3 bit fields for register selection, so octal is natural. Split octal for 16-bit addresses resulted from the way 16-bit addresses were stored in memory as two consecutive bytes. If a JMP instruction was stored in memory in octal as 303 222 111, it was more natural to consider the address to be 111 222 in split octal rather than 044622 in 16-bit octal. Note that the Z80 uses a superset of the instruction encodings of the 8080, so the same argument would apply, but Zilog pushed the use of hexadecimal. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 26 19:13:48 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:13:48 -0600 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC709DD.951.1A11291@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC709DD.951.1A11291@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC76EBC.2080604@jetnet.ab.ca> On 26/10/2010 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You could even roll your own with a diode matrix and a 4-to-16 demux. > > Myself, I've always wondered about a BCD-to-Roman numeral decoder IC. Remember Intercal does have a C compiler for it. I think it outputs Roman Numerals. Ben. > --Chuck > > Check language doc's ... yep Roman numerals output, standard written English digits for input like FOUR SEVEN ZERO. http://www.catb.org/esr/intercal/stross.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 19:40:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:40:52 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 17:13, Eric Smith wrote: > The 8080 instruction encoding is based on 3 bit fields for register > selection, so octal is natural. Split octal for 16-bit addresses > resulted from the way 16-bit addresses were stored in memory as two > consecutive bytes. If a JMP instruction was stored in memory in octal > as 303 222 111, it was more natural to consider the address to be 111 > 222 in split octal rather than 044622 in 16-bit octal. When I wrote a cross-assembler for the 8008, I used octal. When I went to the 8080, I used hex. The only difference was the projects I worked with at the day job--one mainframe used octal; the other used hex. Both from the same manufacturer. I liked the IMSAI scheme of color-coding the front panel toggles, so you could group them by 3 or 4 as your preference demanded. I found that octal on the PDP-11 with 16-bit words and 8 bit bytes was unnecessarily confusing. The GI CP1600 16-bit micro also used octal. A waste of ink. So, what's best (octal or hex) for a system with 33 bit words and 11 bit characters? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 19:41:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:41:34 -0400 Subject: Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC7753E.10602@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 7:27 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I snagged a copy of the first three volumes of this set from the company > library when they were thinning the stacks. > > They were published by The People's Computer Company in 1980. > > They are a really cool snapshot of the microcomputer stuff that was doing on > in the late '70s. Is there an online copy? That is GREAT stuff. I hope it has been preserved online somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 26 19:43:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:43:21 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC709DD.951.1A11291@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC709DD.951.1A11291@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC775A9.2040600@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 8:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Myself, I've always wondered about a BCD-to-Roman numeral decoder IC. YES!!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 26 19:59:08 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:59:08 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> References: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101027005908.GD28143@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > Charles Dickman wrote: > >The topic of why split octal was used on some early micro-computers came up > >on a list. After doing a search for a TTL LED driver that does hex, the > >answer is probably that there were no single chip option for hex displays. > >Split octal was just easier. > The 8080 instruction encoding is based on 3 bit fields for register > selection, so octal is natural. Split octal for 16-bit addresses > resulted from the way 16-bit addresses were stored in memory as two > consecutive bytes. If a JMP instruction was stored in memory in octal > as 303 222 111, it was more natural to consider the address to be 111 > 222 in split octal rather than 044622 in 16-bit octal. The 8086 instruction set makes more sense viewed as octal than as hexidecimal. The 6809 (which I learned before the 8086) makes sense viewed as hexidecimal. -spc (Really loved the Motorola chips ... ) From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 20:43:59 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:43:59 -0500 Subject: Dr Dobb's Journal of Computer Calisthenics & Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > The first volume is for sale at Powel's for $60.... And Nick Allen's got some volumes up on the 'bay right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270653042718 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 26 22:30:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:30:28 -0600 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:51:43 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Richard wrote: > > Looks like you have the standalone terminal that goes with the 2200 > > LVP system described here. (Look at the photo.) > > > > It sure does....hmm, I wouldn't have expected this term to be that > old. Further down the page, it looks like it was used with the big WP > box (2200LVP,) too. I get the impression that Wang reused this same enclosure for lots of different products. I have a Wang terminal that is obviously RS-232 in nature and it has the same enclosure as yours and the 2200s. So visual similarity doesn't guarantee its the same product. Wang died off before the interent got big, so its one of those companies where its hard to find information online. Intergraph's Clipper workstations are another example of this information void, even though Intergraph is still doing well as a company. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 22:46:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:46:47 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> References: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Because 64-pin PGAs and flatpacks didn't exist in 1978. ?Even the 64-pin DIP > was still fairly new. I am pretty sure big flatpacks were available for hybrids back then. Maybe Motorola did not offer it in the databook, but for a big enough government contract, they would have stuffed the dies in the packs (even third party). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 22:51:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:51:07 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com> References: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> <4CC6C10B.32259.8320F8@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC725E3.2090102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I haven't seen a 0.050 inch pitch DIP. ?Perhaps you're referring to the > 0.070 inch pitch "Shrink-DIP", which was very common for a while from > Japanese vendors. I remember seeing them. At one point I had a calculator that had the Shrink DIP (0.070 inch) and and even finer pitch DIP (assume it was 0.050 inch). Oddly, they were both surface mounted gull wing style. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 22:55:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:55:55 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) Message-ID: > 1. > The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the VAX, if > ? > nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just extending the > ? > PDP-11. Just to throw another question into the fire: Just how important was the PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 hardware architecture in the grand scheme of things? Did either machine really bring anything new to the table? Don't confuse popularity with importance - we all know that sometimes unpopular inventions are hugely influential (Alto?). -- Will From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Oct 26 22:57:02 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:57:02 -0400 Subject: Unknown Wangs (Intergraph Clipper Stations) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2010, at 11:30 PM, Richard wrote: > Intergraph's Clipper > workstations are another example of this information void, even though > Intergraph is still doing well as a company. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Yeah, I got one of the desk side clipper computers and can't find nothing on it. Always pains me when you can't find a manual. Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 22:59:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:59:49 -0400 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: <4CC74EAF.5070602@bitsavers.org> References: <4CC74EAF.5070602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and ?are not easy to get. They are not easy to get if you do not look for them. They are actually quite common in the right places. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 23:01:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:01:27 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > You have any photo's of one of the units? ? It might've been over a packet > radio network at the time... PCradio? I have one of those. When are you going to the Post Office next? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 23:07:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:07:38 -0400 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Intergraph's Clipper > workstations are another example of this information void, even though > Intergraph is still doing well as a company. Mostly because the company is run by a bunch of dicks. Very hobbyist unfriendly. RCS has a bunch of Intergraph stuff, including a Intergraph tagged VAX (8250?) with custom hard disk hardware to search for graphics primitives (hell of a way to run a railroad). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 23:14:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:14:13 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > and patented the "brush against brass roller". ?That resulted in a few > matrix readers, soon followed by CDC and others finally getting around to > making light-and-photocell readers, that so out-performed IBM's readers > that it significantly strengthened IBM's competitors. I am not sure I would agree - IBMs card handling was pretty superior (2501, 2520, 3505/3525) to everything else, until the Documations came into play. For example, look at sorters - the last man standing by a long shot was the 083. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 23:20:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:20:31 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM patented the > shape of the hole! ?That resulted in a few short-lived attempts at > round-hole cards, etc.), More than a few, actually. There were many, including a trinary one (Super Bee or something. Anyone help?) that used cards with information only on the four edges of the card, but the choices were hole, no-hole, or hole-with-no-outside-edge. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 23:36:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101026213039.N84267@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, what's best (octal or hex) for a system with 33 bit words and 11 > bit characters? Howzbout using base eleven 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A 11 * 11 is still gonna give you 121 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 23:43:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:43:16 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: , <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2010 at 0:20, William Donzelli wrote: > > My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM > > patented the shape of the hole! ?That resulted in a few short-lived > > attempts at round-hole cards, etc.), > > More than a few, actually. There were many, including a trinary one > (Super Bee or something. Anyone help?) that used cards with > information only on the four edges of the card, but the choices were > hole, no-hole, or hole-with-no-outside-edge. I recall decks of cards that were used to identify plants, birds, etc. Holes along the edges; you inserted knitting needles according to observed characteristics and shook the deck. The cards left on the needles (or maybe the ones that fell out; I can't recall) were your candidates. Didn't the NCR CRAM use a similar addressing system for its cards-- some sort of edge-hole coding? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 26 23:49:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:49:40 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <20101026213039.N84267@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101026213039.N84267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CC74CF4.10046.1652F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2010 at 21:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout using base eleven > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A Heh. It has long seemed to me that 10 bits is the perfect length for a byte. It gives you 1024 binary combinations and can also be used to represent decimal numbers (0-999) with high efficiency. 1023 character possiblities would seem to be sufficient for all but the logographic writing systems (e.g. Kanji). I seem to recall an article in the HP Journal during the 80's that discussed doing decimal arithmetic by using words consisting of "digits" of 10 bits. Does anyone else remember this? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 23:50:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101026214338.G84267@shell.lmi.net> > > My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM patented the > > shape of the hole! ?That resulted in a few short-lived attempts at > > round-hole cards, etc.), On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > More than a few, actually. There were many, including a trinary one > (Super Bee or something. Anyone help?) that used cards with > information only on the four edges of the card, but the choices were > hole, no-hole, or hole-with-no-outside-edge. As a matter of fact, I asked him what those were called a few months before he died in 1987. He couldn't remember for sure, but thought that it was something like "Royal McBee" (If I'm remembering correctly what he said). He said that calling them "edge-sort" should usually work. My high school had a bunch of those, with their "knitting needles" for "how to pick the right college". But, in the earlier quote, the context was input of bulk data into batch processing computers, suc as 360. I don't think that I ever saw any bulk readers for edge punch cards, just the manual poke the needles and see what falls out of the deck. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 23:53:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101026215053.D84267@shell.lmi.net> > > and patented the "brush against brass roller". ?That resulted in a few > > matrix readers, soon followed by CDC and others finally getting around to > > making light-and-photocell readers, that so out-performed IBM's readers > > that it significantly strengthened IBM's competitors. On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I am not sure I would agree - IBMs card handling was pretty superior > (2501, 2520, 3505/3525) to everything else, until the Documations came > into play. For example, look at sorters - the last man standing by a > long shot was the 083. But, in the earlier quote, the context was input of bulk data into batch processing computers, such as 360. The optical readers were capable of much higher speeds, which was the limiting factor in those days of data processing. But, EAM was so much more FUN! Using an IBM sorter to alphabetize was a great way to spend a rainy afternoon. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 23:57:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:57:42 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I recall decks of cards that were used to identify plants, birds, > etc. ?Holes along the edges; you inserted knitting needles according > to observed characteristics and shook the deck. ?The cards left on > the needles (or maybe the ones that fell out; I can't recall) were > your candidates. Yes, that is the idea. Apparently the women that used to do this were very fast, and could do a sort in a blink of an eye. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 00:04:14 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:04:14 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <20101026215053.D84267@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <20101026215053.D84267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > But, in the earlier quote, the context was input of bulk data into batch > processing computers, such as 360. ?The optical readers were capable of > much higher speeds, which was the limiting factor in those days of data > processing. IBM 2501. Damn near every 360 installation had one. It hogged a channel, as it had a built in control unit. 2520 is the corresponding hoggy punch. Years ago on this list was a pointer to a Government auction for a lot of six (!) 2501s. There was also a pointer to a 2501 in Newfoundland. I wonder if any of these machines survived. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 00:04:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:04:22 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <20101026214338.G84267@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <20101026214338.G84267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > As a matter of fact, I asked him what those were called a few months > before he died in 1987. ?He couldn't remember for sure, but thought that > it was something like "Royal McBee" (If I'm remembering correctly what he > said). ?He said that calling them "edge-sort" should usually work. Yes, Royal McBee. I think I have a box or two of those things. There is a good book called Punched Cards (or something similar) from the 1940s or 50s that goes over all of the systems used before computers came about. Highly recommended. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 27 00:10:35 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:10:35 -0700 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net>, <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2cd0b57507a78a73ae69077f96f707fa@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 26, at 9:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Oct 2010 at 0:20, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM >>> patented the shape of the hole! ?That resulted in a few short-lived >>> attempts at round-hole cards, etc.), >> >> More than a few, actually. There were many, including a trinary one >> (Super Bee or something. Anyone help?) that used cards with >> information only on the four edges of the card, but the choices were >> hole, no-hole, or hole-with-no-outside-edge. > > I recall decks of cards that were used to identify plants, birds, > etc. Holes along the edges; you inserted knitting needles according > to observed characteristics and shook the deck. The cards left on > the needles (or maybe the ones that fell out; I can't recall) were > your candidates. I remember some variation of them being used for library checkout in the 60's. I think they were inserted into a clunky machine which stamped the return date. http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/06/one_dead_media.php > Didn't the NCR CRAM use a similar addressing system for its cards-- > some sort of edge-hole coding? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 27 00:23:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:23:32 -0400 Subject: Unknown Wangs (Intergraph Clipper Stations) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC7B754.7000406@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 11:57 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> Intergraph's Clipper >> workstations are another example of this information void, even though >> Intergraph is still doing well as a company. > > Yeah, I got one of the desk side clipper computers and can't find nothing on it. > Always pains me when you can't find a manual. I'm pretty sure I still have databooks on the processor chipset, but nothing on the systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 27 00:23:19 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:23:19 -0400 Subject: Speaking of "IBM Thingy's"... In-Reply-To: References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC736BF.6020204@atarimuseum.com> <4CC737B4.5010209@snarc.net> <4CC73CA0.3050401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CC7B747.6080709@atarimuseum.com> Tomorrow... :-) William Donzelli wrote: >> You have any photo's of one of the units? It might've been over a packet >> radio network at the time... >> > > PCradio? I have one of those. When are you going to the Post Office next? > > -- > Will > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 27 00:24:42 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: <20101026214338.G84267@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <20101026214338.G84267@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101026221414.F84267@shell.lmi.net> Before we go too much further, I need to reiterate my disclaimer: > My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that, . . . He did social science research, which included a lot of data processing using FORTRAN. But, I am NOT going to claim that he was an expert in the history nor the technology. My father never fully seemed to understand why there were multiple sizes of Phillips screwdrivers, so I was a little surprised that he seemed to understand the principle of the brush and brass roller. I mention that he was my source for that information, because I can't verify the accuracy. And, I don't know what HIS source was for that information. I may well be trying to claim that OS/2 for the PDP-11 was written in Valtrep, so I want to clarify that my source could have been WRONG. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From elazzerini at interfree.it Tue Oct 26 14:08:01 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 21:08:01 +0200 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rivista Byte dal Gennaio 1980 al Dicembre 1984 http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/MAGAZINE/BYTE/index.html From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 26 18:52:34 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 01:52:34 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC769C2.8090705@softjar.se> Hi, Rich. Thanks for broaching an interesting topic of which I'm rather fond... :-) On 2010-10-27 00:16, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 9:08 AM > > 1.> The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the VAX, if > > nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just extending the > > PDP-11. > > 2.> However, I also object to the discussion about "Virtual memory" as > > something new the VAX brought to the table. > > 3.> Virtual memory worked just fine on a PDP-11 as well, thank you very > > much, as it also worked fine on a bunch of other machines, and had been > > doing for quite a while. > > 4.> VAX stands for "Virtual Address eXtension", note the "extension". > > Extension normally means that you modify/extend something that already > > exists, in this case the virtual address. On a PDP-11, the virtual > > address is 16 bits, the VAX extended it to 32 bits, which is a huge > > improvement (and the biggest bottleneck of the PDP-11, as I'm sure all > > people know). The physical address on a PDP-11 is 22 bits, while the > > physical address on a VAX varies, but on the 11/780 I only think it was > > something like 24 bits. > > 5.> The VAX also introduced demand pageing, compared to the PDP-11, where > > you normally didn't do that (and not all models could even possibly do > > it), but demand pageing as such wasn't new either. DEC was already doing > > it with the PDP-10 running TOPS-20 (and other companies had also done it). > > Addressing 1, 2, 4, and 5: > > The "Extension" in 'Virtual Address Extension" does not refer to extending > the virtual address in the PDP-11, but rather to extending the PDP-11 > architecture with virtual addressing. The PDP-11's 16-bit address is real, > not virtual in the usual definition; the use of memory management to select > from within an 18- or 22-bit memory space does not make it virtual. Sorry, but I'll have to totally disagree with you, and so does all the processor handbooks for the PDP-11. :-) Virtual addressing have nothing to do with demand paging, or even paging (even though I know Wikipedia uses that very broken definition (or atleast used to)). A virtual address is... Well... Virtual. It does not match a physical address. Instead it is an address into an imagined memory space, virtual memory. This virtual memory space would appear as just your own in a system. Another process in the same system have another virtual address space, using the same virtual addresses you are, but you are not actually referring to the same memory. It's virtual. :-) A virtual address gets translated into a physical address by an MMU. The "Virtual Adress eXtension" (aka. VAX) was a virtual address extension to the PDP-11, nothing more. The PDP-11 already have virtual addressing. Pick up any PDP-11 processor handbook and read about it yourself. Or check http://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpdos.csail.mit.edu%2F6.097%2Freadings%2Fpdp11-40.pdf&rct=j&q=pdp11%20processor%20handbook&ei=KmbHTL3bB8iAOuawjZkB&usg=AFQjCNH4SSOdOIBIKXtdi8iZJYpZjWwrmw&cad=rja , for the (arguably) yucky PDP-11/40 online. Look at chapter 6 - Memory Management. On a PDP-11, an address can either be physical, in case the MMU is turned off, or else virtual. The virtual address gets translated to a physical address by the MMU, by using the page table and some simple adders. In case you run on a PDP-11 with the MMU turned off, the 16-bit address just gets extended to 18 (or 22) bits by using zeroes for the high bits of the physical address. if the MMU is turned on, the virtual 16-bit address is translated into a 18 or 22-bit physical address. > The VAX-11 (note that "-11" in the names of the first models!) added the > use of demand-paged virtual memory (that is to say, disk-based storage) to > the PDP-11, then expanded the instruction set into the new 32-bit word size. VMS added demand paged virtual memory. There is nothing preventing you from writing an OS on the VAX which don't use demand paging, just as there is nothing preventing you from writing an OS for the PDP-11 which would do demand paging (assuming you have a PDP-11 model with the neccesary features implemented in the MMU, which not all have). > Addressing 2 and 5: > > Burroughs introduced the B5000, the first computer with virtual memory > (segmented rather than paged) in 1961; the British brought out the Atlas in > 1962. Multics used both segmentation and paging on the GE-645, beginning > in 1964. DEC provided a segmented memory model in the PDP-6 (1964) and > PDP-10 (1967); BB&N created a pager for the PDP-10 and brought TENEX, with > demand paging, to the world c. 1970. When DEC licensed TENEX and modified > it for the KL-10 processor (born at the Stanford AI Lab as the SuperFoonly!), > they added the working-set concept which had been discovered by (IIRC) > Denning in his research on demand-paged memory systems, and christened the > result "TOPS-20". No additional comments. And you know the PDP-10 much better than I do. :-) > Addressing 3: > > I don't believe that there was ever demand-paged virtual memory on the > PDP-11, but I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. Please point me > at documentation for an operating system which did that. Sorry, just as with you, I don't know of anyone who did that. But I can tell you how you should do it, in case you'd be interested in actually doing it. There is nothing in the hardware that prevents you. The biggest reasons why noone did it are that: 1) The physical memory is much larger than the virtual memory on a PDP-11, meaning that it's normally not a big problem to actually have all virtual memory always paged in when a process is running. You will never see working sets that are larger than what can be held in memory at one time, thus one big reason for demand paged memory is lost. 2) The page size of the PDP-11 is 8K, which at the time was pretty big. With that size, you actually only have eight pages for a process. Now, why do demand paging, when you can at the most get 8 page misses before everything is paged in? You might as well preload them, and skip the whole demand paging mechanism. 3) Not all models of the PDP-11 MMUs support all the fancy stuff you need. People weren't that interested in writing software that only worked on some models (that did eventually happen in other ways anyway, but only by slower evolution at a later stage). So, no, I cannot point you to any system that implemented demand paging. Maybe someone did it without us knowing about it. The fact still stands, though. The PDP-11 allows you to do it. Is it then relevant if someone actually did it or not? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 26 19:07:33 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:07:33 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC76D45.3060604@softjar.se> On 2010-10-27 00:16, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > VAX stands for "Virtual Address eXtension", note the "extension". > I always thought that VAX-11 meant it was a PDP11 that had the > 'eXtension' of 'Virtual Addresses'. You obviously need to pick up any PDP-11 processor handbook as well, and check out the memory management chapter. DEC defined the PDP-11 as having virtual addresses already from the first day the MMU was available for the machine. :-) >> > Extension normally means that you modify/extend something that already >> > exists, in this case the virtual address. On a PDP-11, the virtual >> > address is 16 bits, the VAX extended it to 32 bits, which is a huge >> > improvement (and the biggest bottleneck of the PDP-11, as I'm sure all >> > people know). The physical address on a PDP-11 is 22 bits, while the >> > physical address on a VAX varies, but on the 11/780 I only think it was >> > something like 24 bits. > Hmmm. I was under the impression there was a difference between virtual > memory/addresses and an MMU. Namely that the former impliled a larger > logical address space than the physcial address space and that if a > program tried to access a memory page that wasn't currently mapped to a > physcial area of memory, the OS would be given the chance to load the > approraite data from disk (or whatever) into RAM and map the page > appropriately. The size of the virtual address space compared to the physical is not really relevant. After all, on a VAX, they are actually the same. The physical address is defined as 32 bits, and the virtual address as well. However, no VAX actually implemented a full 32 bit physical address space, but there were many different max physical memory limits on different machines. A virtual address is "virtual". It's not real. It's a fake. :-) The MMU is what does the translation between a virtual and a physical address. Exactly how these two domains look like have less to do with the definition. And exactly how the translation is done is also less relevant. As long as you can present to several programs running on the same machine, a memory space in which they think they are the only one playing with the memory, and they have an "unlimited" (within the size of the address space) access to that memory in a linear fashion, it qualified as virtual memory. (What would you call it?) > The 11/780 logica address space is larger than the physical one, the > (memory managed) PDP11's is not. Yes. So what? In which way would that make the virtual address in a program running on a PDP-11 less virtual? After all, you are totally shielded from how the actual physical memory layout, allocation, translation or mapping is done. You are only playing within your virtual memory space. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 26 19:22:34 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:22:34 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC770CA.7070607@softjar.se> Oh, yeah... One more thing... > The VAX-11 (note that "-11" in the names of the first models!) added the > use of demand-paged virtual memory (that is to say, disk-based storage) to > the PDP-11, then expanded the instruction set into the new 32-bit word size. The -11 in VAX-11 was placed there to indicate the inheritance to the PDP-11, and the fact that it could execute PDP-11 code as well (even if only in user mode). The -11 moniker was dropped when PDP-11 compatibility was dropped. (And for the person who raises his hand and asks about the VAX 86x0 machine, which do have PDP-11 compatibility, those machines were internally referred to as VAX-11/79x, but marketing (or whoever) decided that it would be cool to call them 8600 instead. I even once read a rumor that 8600 was chosed as it was twice that of 4300, but I don't know. But if you read DEC documentation on the 86x0 machine, you can still find plenty of references to VAX-11/790.) If you still doubt what I write, I suggest this source: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/VAX_archHbkVol1_1977.pdf which is the very first edition of the VAX-11/780 Architecture Handbook. Read chapter 1.1, Introduction. Second paragraph has this nice piece of text: "The goals of the VAX architecture were to provide a significant enhancement to the virtual addressing capability of the PDP-11 series consistent with small code size, easy exploitation by higher-level languages, and a high degree of compatibility with the PDP-11 series." Now, if people could only read documentation, and learn to use terms the correct way... ;-) :-D Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 26 19:36:51 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:36:51 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC77423.7000405@softjar.se> On 2010-10-27 00:16, Roger Holmes wrote: >> > From: Johnny Billquist >> > On 10/26/10 04:20, Roger Holmes wrote: >> > >>>>> >>>> From: Mr Ian Primus >>>>> >>>> And glaringly so. To say that the 11/780 is the first 32 bit machine is just silly. Prime had a 32 bit machine in 1972. And I know that there were others - but the Prime is the machine that I know the best:) >>> >> I think I'm right saying the Manchester 'Baby' had a 32 bit word in 1948, actually 32 of them on one Williams tube. However as it was a serial machine the data path to memory was actually one bit wide so it depends how you define bit size, but I was taught it was the largest addressable unit of memory and by that definition it had a 32 bit word. >> > >> > What does "largest addressable unit of memory" means? I totally fail to >> > understand that. Sounds like "the largest memory chip that can be >> > utilized", but that can hardly be the meaning. > Compare with another thing I was taught. A byte is the smallest addressable unit of memory. By this definition I have worked on machines with bytes sizes of 3, 8, 18, 24, 36 and (I think) 60. In most of the latter ones, a byte was also a word. I guess you exclude memory to memory block move instructions, then consider the instructions which can load and save data and find the one which acts on the largest number of bits. I think by this definition a 68000, a Z8000, and the Manchester Baby all had 32 bit words. The VAX may have had 32 bit of 64 bit words even if it had just a 32 bit data path. My ICT 1301 has 48 bits words and 48 bit bytes even though its mill was only 4 bits wide. The data path from core memory to the 'A' register was 50 bits in parallel (it had two parity bits), but the data path between registers was only 4 bits, or in one case two sets of 4 bits. It was a serial/parallel architecture which allowed the end user price to be kept just below 250,000 pounds f! > or a 5 tape deck mag tape machine with card reader, card punch, line printer, one drum and 2000 (decimal) words of core. Hmm. Gotcha. But in that case, a VAX would be a 128 bit machine, since the largest quantities it can operate on is 128 bits. And a PDP-11 would, I guess, be a 32-bit machine, and a Z80 a 16-bit machine. Hmm, I do not think I agree with that definition. > Sorry for rambling and thanks for all who commented on my 41 years of programming experience. I think it's more convenient to look at what the "natural size" of the registers are. I say "natural", because for instance, on the Z80, you can combine registers, but I would define that as not the natual size. So, HL is a 16-bit register, and you can do pretty much anything with the, but it's actually the registers H and L combined together, and you can address each register separately as well. And they are 8 bits. And the PDP-11 have 16-bit registers, but some operations work on a combination of two registers combined. Once again, not "natural". And the same goes for the VAX (obviously). On the PDP-10 the accumulaltors are 36 bits, but you have instructions that can deal with bytes of any size between 1 and 36 bits. And they automatically manage the manipulations on parts of accumulators. But those smaller byte sizes aren't natural either, so it is 36 bits on that machine. :-) But it might have made more sense back in older days..? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 27 01:39:33 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:39:33 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> On 2010-10-27 06:20, William Donzelli wrote: >> > 1.> The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the VAX, if >> > ?> nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just extending the >> > ?> PDP-11. > Just to throw another question into the fire: > > Just how important was the PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 hardware architecture > in the grand scheme of things? Did either machine really bring > anything new to the table? I honestly don't know. The PDP-11 have been attributed with the common I/O and memory bus (Unibus), with memory mapped I/O as well as the concept of condition codes. Also the general registers with a nice set of addressing modes to use on them. And we should probably not forget having the PC as just a general register (although few, if any, picked that one up). So the PDP-11 can be used as a accumulator-based machine, a memory-memory based machine, or a stack based machine. It's possible to implement all concepts found in architectures at that time easily on the PDP-11. The basic PDP-11 architecture was deigned so that if an instruction took an argument, any kind of argument was equally valid. But as usual, the question is: was really the PDP-11 first with these things, or can you find earlier examples? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Oct 27 05:10:34 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:10:34 +0100 Subject: Another interesting computer on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81B1154B-30DB-4ABD-B130-382FEE5E3561@microspot.co.uk> > From: Richard > Roger Holmes writes: > >> ither. The 29000 processor [...] > > 2900, not 29000. The 29xx is a bit-slice CPU design made up of a > bunch of chips. The 29000 is a single chip CPU that came later. Quite right. Brain parity error, but the difference is only a 0 :-) IIRC we used six 4 bit slices and a controller chip in one of our machines called CHLL which was a two off special, one bench prototype and one flyable prototype. I got to modify some of the microcode for the bench machine and worked on the CHLL 'compactor' which was really a compiler but the idea was that the instruction set was a Compacted High Level Language so the compiler was very simple (it wasn't) and he machine would be very efficient (it wasn't). Trouble was someone got carried away and implemented much of Algol 60 instead of the Coral 66 they had been asked to do. I just cleaned it up and got it through its acceptance test with the minimum of work. I remember telling them I could fix a bug easily (by incrementing a field for a particular instruction as it went through the back end of the code generator) but that it was not the right place to fix it. I was told to fix it in the wrong place and I did so and they closed down the project. Apparently the flyable prototype was used at the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough - as a door stop! At the time I had neither the experience nor the confidence to tell them they were wrong, I was just a year out of University, supposedly a trainee programmer working for a huge company (4000 staff at just the one site I worked and many other sites too) and its only looking back years later I realised fully what had gone on. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 27 08:04:14 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:14 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: (sfid-20101026_235637_020590_314D7668) References: (sfid-20101026_235637_020590_314D7668) Message-ID: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> On 10/26/2010 11:55 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Just how important was the PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 hardware architecture > in the grand scheme of things? Did either machine really bring > anything new to the table? > > Don't confuse popularity with importance - we all know that sometimes > unpopular inventions are hugely influential (Alto?). In this case I think popularity is important. The '11 instruction set was somewhat of a departure from other machines in that it was very "programmer friendly". That, coupled with the fact that it was very popular in universities led to a lot of people embracing it. The VAX was widely adopted in universities and at one point it could have almost been said that many people considered "all the worlds a VAX" since they were so popular. DEC was an alternative to IBM at the time; more accessible and more oriented toward individual scientific users. (I don't know about you, but the 370 operators always got tense when I touched the console, but I would twist the power keys on most of the '11s and VAXes I used and I was alone in the room, and it was *much* quieter :-) You could insert a small paragraph here about the role of unix and how unix and the pdp-11 and vax interacted. And then how the 680xx accelerated that vector. It might be interesting to review how microcode (and nanocode) affected all three of those designs. Both machines have been left in the dust by RISC architectures, mostly because of the notion that it's easier to accelerate (parallelize if you will) MIPS style RISC instruction sets. Even Intel turns ciscy X86 code into something which looks remarkably like MIPS code inside their chips. Having said that, I would claim the '11 and VAX taught us that "going more CISC" was helpful but was ultimately doomed due to speed issues. Much was learned from those architectures. -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 08:57:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:57:10 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' In-Reply-To: References: <20101026125613.S71732@shell.lmi.net> <4CC74B74.18140.1078BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC82FB6.1030302@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I recall decks of cards that were used to identify plants, birds, >> etc. Holes along the edges; you inserted knitting needles according >> to observed characteristics and shook the deck. The cards left on >> the needles (or maybe the ones that fell out; I can't recall) were >> your candidates. > > Yes, that is the idea. Apparently the women that used to do this were > very fast, and could do a sort in a blink of an eye. My mother is (was?) one of these women. Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 27 08:53:54 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 06:53:54 -0700 Subject: Chip Packaging (was Happy Birthday VAX) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC71544.8090509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Mitsubishi had some large-scale(for the time) ICs packaged as flatpack ceramic packages with 48 pins at a pitch smaller than 0.1" back in 1970/1971 timeframe. The chipset was used in calculators, specifically the Denon DEC-311 (an unusual calculator that didn't support division), as the MA8011/8012/8013. The socketing for the chips was quite unusual. As mentioned by an earlier poster, the Japanese did seem to have an advantage in higher-density packaging over the US and others for a period of time in the 1970's. http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/denon311.html Earlier yet, in 1965-ish timeframe, General Micro-Electronics built a large-scale chipset for Victor's 3900 calculator that utilized round ceramic flat-pack devices with 22 leads. Not quite at the level of a 68000 in terms of pincount, but still pretty amazing for the time. Getting the packaging right was a huge undertaking at that time. http://pail.bensene.com/d-victor3900.html (a draft, not yet completed). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 27 09:11:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:11:24 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC8330C.7000403@neurotica.com> On 10/26/10 8:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The 8080 instruction encoding is based on 3 bit fields for register >> selection, so octal is natural. Split octal for 16-bit addresses >> resulted from the way 16-bit addresses were stored in memory as two >> consecutive bytes. If a JMP instruction was stored in memory in octal >> as 303 222 111, it was more natural to consider the address to be 111 >> 222 in split octal rather than 044622 in 16-bit octal. > > When I wrote a cross-assembler for the 8008, I used octal. When I > went to the 8080, I used hex. The only difference was the projects I > worked with at the day job--one mainframe used octal; the other used > hex. Both from the same manufacturer. > > I liked the IMSAI scheme of color-coding the front panel toggles, so > you could group them by 3 or 4 as your preference demanded. The IMSAI 8080 also has both octal and hexadecimal groupings above the first row of LEDs, printed on the sheet that sits between the two parts of the plexiglas bezel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 10:31:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:31:34 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> References: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > In this case I think popularity is important. ?The '11 instruction set was > somewhat of a > departure from other machines in that it was very "programmer friendly". I think a lot of people would not agree with that. The PDP-10 people, for example. > The VAX was widely adopted in universities and at one point it could have > almost been > said that many people considered "all the worlds a VAX" since they were so > popular. I am thinking more about the hardware development of the architecture - were there any real innovations the DEC guys came up with and made public when the machines were introduced? > (I don't know about you, but the 370 operators always got tense when I > touched > the console, Yes, when the EPO switch is pulled and it makes a sizable dent in the company's stock, and maybe the Dow as a whole, well, yes, they tend to be nervous. > You could insert a small paragraph here about the role of unix and how unix > and > the pdp-11 and vax interacted. Are you saying that the PDP-11 and VAX were the first machines where the hardware and software were both considered and designed together? Once again, I think a lot of people would not agree with that. -- Will From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Oct 27 11:28:46 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:28:46 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Clipper Stations In-Reply-To: <4CC7B754.7000406@neurotica.com> References: <4CC7B754.7000406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0266A8A4-22CC-4847-B8C1-2C2C6C01419A@colourfull.com> On Oct 27, 2010, at 1:23 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/10 11:57 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>> Intergraph's Clipper >>> workstations are another example of this information void, even though >>> Intergraph is still doing well as a company. >> >> Yeah, I got one of the desk side clipper computers and can't find nothing on it. >> Always pains me when you can't find a manual. > > I'm pretty sure I still have databooks on the processor chipset, but nothing on the systems. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Hi Dave, I have an Intergraph Series 6700 (had to unbury it to remember what it was). Are the books you have different then the Fairchild ones on BitSavers ? Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Oct 27 12:16:54 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:16:54 -0400 Subject: What are these IBM 'thingys' References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:20:31 -0400 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: What are these IBM 'thingys' > My father (NOT a computer historian) used to tell me that IBM patented the > shape of the hole! ?That resulted in a few short-lived attempts at > round-hole cards, etc.), More than a few, actually. There were many, including a trinary one (Super Bee or something. Anyone help?) that used cards with information only on the four edges of the card, but the choices were hole, no-hole, or hole-with-no-outside-edge. -- Will ++++++++++++++++++++ Don't forget EPCs (Edge Punched Cards); basically an 80 column format card with prepunched feed holes and 8-channel paper tape perforations along one edge. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 27 15:27:48 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:27:48 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> References: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:40 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > > On 2010-10-27 06:20, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > 1.> The PDP-11 was in architectural ways more important than the > VAX, if > >> > ?> nothing else than just because the VAX was basically just > extending the > >> > ?> PDP-11. > > Just to throw another question into the fire: > > > > Just how important was the PDP-11 or VAX-11/780 hardware architecture > > in the grand scheme of things? Did either machine really bring > > anything new to the table? > > I honestly don't know. > > The PDP-11 have been attributed with the common I/O and memory bus > (Unibus), with memory mapped I/O as well as the concept of condition > codes. Also the general registers with a nice set of addressing modes > to > use on them. And we should probably not forget having the PC as just a > general register (although few, if any, picked that one up). So the > PDP-11 can be used as a accumulator-based machine, a memory-memory > based > machine, or a stack based machine. It's possible to implement all > concepts found in architectures at that time easily on the PDP-11. > The basic PDP-11 architecture was deigned so that if an instruction > took > an argument, any kind of argument was equally valid. > > But as usual, the question is: was really the PDP-11 first with these > things, or can you find earlier examples? > I do believe the PDP-11's use of memory-mapped I/O was original - at least I can't think of any earlier examples. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 14:50:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:50:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: <4CC74EAF.5070602@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 26, 10 02:57:03 pm Message-ID: > > > > IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and are not easy to get. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180572129078 I must admit I don't normally buy components on E-bay. While virtually all of the sellers I've dealt with have been totally honest and great to deal with, I would rather buy things I can't repair (like components) from a company where I have some way of getting a refund if they are defective. I remember whea I wanted bulbs for the HP 59306, I could find several companies who could supply them, but only in quntities of 50. Which was rather too many... Many years ago I rememebr getting some little metal collars that you screwed an LES cap bulb into, and the result would fit a midget flange socket. I think they came from 'Home Radio' of Mitcham (now that does date me :-)). They are presumably still made becuase I bought some LES panel lampholders a couple of years back and they turned out to be midget flange hoders supplied with these collars. But that's an expensive way to get them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:07:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:07:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 26, 10 05:13:14 pm Message-ID: > The 8080 instruction encoding is based on 3 bit fields for register > selection, so octal is natural. Split octal for 16-bit addresses > resulted from the way 16-bit addresses were stored in memory as two > consecutive bytes. If a JMP instruction was stored in memory in octal > as 303 222 111, it was more natural to consider the address to be 111 > 222 in split octal rather than 044622 in 16-bit octal. As an aside. I've worked on a machine with an 8-bit microcode address that was normally written as 4 octal digits. The address was split into 2 nybbles (this makes a lot of sense based ont he procressor design) and each nyble was writen as as octal number from 00 to 17. So the highest address was written as 1717. [It's the HP9800 CPU if anyone's curious...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:12:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:12:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 26, 10 05:40:52 pm Message-ID: > I found that octal on the PDP-11 with 16-bit words and 8 bit bytes > was unnecessarily confusing. Except that the many of the PDP11 instructions are easy to decode if written in octal (4 bit opcode, 3 bit addressing mde, 3 bit register select, 3 bit addressing mode, 3 bit register select). I would hate to have to work with PDP11 machine code in hex... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:17:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:17:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 26, 10 11:59:49 pm Message-ID: > > >> IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and =A0are not easy to get. > > They are not easy to get if you do not look for them. They are > actually quite common in the right places. But as ever you're not going to tell us what the 'right places' are. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 15:39:41 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:39:41 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 10/27/10, Ian King wrote: >> But as usual, the question is: was really the PDP-11 first with these >> things, or can you find earlier examples? >> > > I do believe the PDP-11's use of memory-mapped I/O was original - at least I > can't think of any earlier examples. -- Ian It's the earliest one I am aware of, but my knowledge of non-DEC stuff before 1970 is admittedly full of gaps. I started with the 6502 (in 1977), so I thought memory-mapped I/O was "normal". The 1802 was the first processor I used that had I/O instructions. So I guess since any processor that has gaps in its memory map _could_ have those gaps filled with memory-mapped I/O, the question is _did_ any implement it prior to 1969/1970? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 15:55:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:55:39 -0400 Subject: Octal vs Hex representations of machine code (was Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip) Message-ID: On 10/27/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> I found that octal on the PDP-11 with 16-bit words and 8 bit bytes >> was unnecessarily confusing. > > Except that the many of the PDP11 instructions are easy to decode if > written in octal (4 bit opcode, 3 bit addressing mde, 3 bit register > select, 3 bit addressing mode, 3 bit register select). I would hate to > have to work with PDP11 machine code in hex... Agreed. When I first started working with PDP-11s, my supervisor asked me for a PDP-11 program that would read the "window" register on our product then write it back to the same address and loop (it was a write-only register for each side - what each processor read was what the other had previously written). I thought a second and recited, "1000 slash 13700 lf 177300 lf 10037 lf 177300 lf 137 lf 1000 enter 1000 G" (or something substantially similar to that). He got annoyed and told me to go sit down and write him a program. I told him to turn around and type in what I was telling him. On the third recitation, he started typing. Being two moves and a jump, it worked the first time. He was gobsmacked that it was possible for a human to spontaneously emit meaningful octal. Given the spacing of the addressing modes, I wouldn't have wanted to try it in hex without writing it down. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 27 15:57:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:57:24 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CC82FC4.11897.14EADFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2010 at 16:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's the earliest one I am aware of, but my knowledge of non-DEC stuff > before 1970 is admittedly full of gaps. Consider, for example, the CDC 7600. Each peripheral processor (or "channel" in alternative terminology) is hard-assigned a buffer in SCM. The CPU has no way to talk its channels other than by writing into these memory-mapped buffers. There are no CPU I/O ports or any other way for the CPU to reach the outside world. The 6000 series behaves similarly, but the PPUs get to read any memory address. Typically, a "mailbox" is set up for PPU communication. So, did Seymour invent memory-mapped I/O? I suspect not. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 27 16:20:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net> > > I do believe the PDP-11's use of memory-mapped I/O was original - at least I > > can't think of any earlier examples. -- Ian On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's the earliest one I am aware of, but my knowledge of non-DEC stuff > before 1970 is admittedly full of gaps. > I started with the 6502 (in 1977), so I thought memory-mapped I/O was > "normal". The 1802 was the first processor I used that had I/O > instructions. > So I guess since any processor that has gaps in its memory map _could_ > have those gaps filled with memory-mapped I/O, the question is _did_ > any implement it prior to 1969/1970? My memories from ~1968 are not very clear, and definitions of memory-mapped I/O may vary, . . . Didn't the 1401 sort-of have it? Not fully automatic memory-mapped I/O such as the TRS80 and PC video RAM, more like the CP/M and PC's PSP DTAs. I seem to recall there being a command to read a card into a fixed buffer in memory, and another to write a card from anbother fixed buffer. I remember "cheating" and using those buffer spaces when I ran short of space writing short programs on the 1401 emulator on the 1620. Strange, . . . I remember more about that than I do about PDQ FORTRAN on the 1620, nor about "141 SPS"? on the 1401. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 16:26:05 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <768562.19594.qm@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell As an aside. I've worked on a machine with an 8-bit microcode address that was normally written as 4 octal digits. The address was split into 2 nybbles (this makes a lot of sense based ont he procressor design) and each nyble was writen as as octal number from 00 to 17. So the highest address was written as 1717. [It's the HP9800 CPU if anyone's curious...] I'm interested. Those are great little machines. I think it would be really interesting to put that CPU in an FPGA. Are there some documents describing the architecture and the microcode? Dave From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 27 16:41:21 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:41:21 -0700 Subject: 1401 "memory-mapped I/O" [was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)] In-Reply-To: <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:21 PM >>> I do believe the PDP-11's use of memory-mapped I/O was original - at least I >>> can't think of any earlier examples. -- Ian > On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's the earliest one I am aware of, but my knowledge of non-DEC stuff >> before 1970 is admittedly full of gaps. >> I started with the 6502 (in 1977), so I thought memory-mapped I/O was >> "normal". The 1802 was the first processor I used that had I/O >> instructions. >> So I guess since any processor that has gaps in its memory map _could_ >> have those gaps filled with memory-mapped I/O, the question is _did_ >> any implement it prior to 1969/1970? > My memories from ~1968 are not very clear, and definitions of > memory-mapped I/O may vary, . . . > Didn't the 1401 sort-of have it? Not fully automatic memory-mapped I/O > such as the TRS80 and PC video RAM, more like the CP/M and PC's PSP DTAs. > I seem to recall there being a command to read a card into a fixed buffer > in memory, and another to write a card from anbother fixed buffer. I > remember "cheating" and using those buffer spaces when I ran short of > space writing short programs on the 1401 emulator on the 1620. The way 1401 addressing works, you address the high-numbered character and everything is operated on towards the first lower numbered character with the Word Mark bit set. Locations 80, 180, and 332 are special: A MOVE instruction pointed at location 80 as the source reads a card from the 1402, a MOVE with location 180 as the destination punches a card on the 1402, and a MOVE with 332 as the destination prints a line on the 1403. Word marks are set in locations 1, 101, and 201. I don't know how the disks (or tapes, if the system had them) handled things. I saw Autocoder as a losing proposition by then. (Lord, that's dredging up 40+ year old memories. I stuck to the 360/370 family once I graduated high school, until I encountered the DEC-20 eight years later in grad school.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 27 16:56:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:56:32 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC712A4.12025.1C466E1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 26, 10 05:40:52 pm, Message-ID: <4CC83DA0.26218.185C937@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2010 at 21:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Except that the many of the PDP11 instructions are easy to decode if > written in octal (4 bit opcode, 3 bit addressing mde, 3 bit register > select, 3 bit addressing mode, 3 bit register select). I would hate to > have to work with PDP11 machine code in hex... ...and octal makes it so easy to read packed BCD. I think the opcode subfield length determining the display radix of a system is a red herring. Because the Atmel AVR microcontrollers have 32 8-bit registers, should base-32 be used as the display radix? --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 27 17:27:44 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:27:44 -0600 Subject: Unknown Wangs (Intergraph Clipper Stations) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:57:02 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > Yeah, I got one of the desk side clipper computers and can't find nothing on it. > Always pains me when you can't find a manual. Which model do you have? Does it look like these? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 27 17:28:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:28:43 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Clipper (was: Unknown Wangs) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:07:38 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > RCS has a bunch of Intergraph stuff, including a Intergraph tagged VAX > (8250?) with custom hard disk hardware to search for graphics > primitives (hell of a way to run a railroad). ...and they never respond to inquiries. I've emailed them several times and they never bothered to reply. If you could kick some tires with a personal contact, that would be appreciated. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 27 17:58:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:58:06 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Clipper Stations In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:28:46 -0400. <0266A8A4-22CC-4847-B8C1-2C2C6C01419A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: In article <0266A8A4-22CC-4847-B8C1-2C2C6C01419A at colourfull.com>, Robert Borsuk writes: > Are the books you have different then the Fairchild ones on BitSavers ? I have one at home; it might be this one: But I'll have to check. Other than that, which I purchased separately from the machines, I have no docs. Apparently the machines I have a fairly complete though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doug at stillhq.com Wed Oct 27 18:01:58 2010 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:01:58 +1100 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC7061F.15196.19273F4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC8AF66.1020009@stillhq.com> > > Sure, the Fairchild 9370, 9368 and 9374. All include a latch (a nice > feature). > > --Chuck Heh heh. This reminded me of a project I did in a hardware interfacing class a very long time ago. The project was to interface two 7 segment displays to a single 8 bit I/O port - The design specs required that the displays should be able to show hex characters, and be turned off - It was clear that the *intent* of the assignment was that we were supposed to be learning about scanning displays. My lecturer was very surprised when I turned in a PCB with two 7 segment displays, and two 9374 chips. I tied the data lines together, and brought the individual latch and Ripple Blanking lines out - two port writes were all that was required to display anything - and there was none of that messy scanning required to keep the display updated. Using the ripple blanking inputs, allowed me to turn off each display individually. I got an A, and the assignment sheet was updated to prevent the solution in the future!! Doug Jackson From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Oct 27 18:26:43 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:26:43 +0100 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> References: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CC8B533.8060603@gifford.co.uk> On the subject of binary to hex 7-segment decoders, has anyone ever seen a DM9368? ISTR that it's a pre-programmed PROM of some kind, taking in four bits of binary (plus some ripple blanking pins) and outputting 7-segment drive signals for 0-9 and A-F. A copy of the data sheet for the chip: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~phylabs/bsc/PDFFiles/DM9368.pdf -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 27 19:05:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:05:59 -0400 Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC8BE67.5050008@neurotica.com> On 10/27/10 3:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> IIRC, these are 'midget flange' bulbs and are not easy to get. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180572129078 > > I must admit I don't normally buy components on E-bay. While virtually > all of the sellers I've dealt with have been totally honest and great to > deal with, I would rather buy things I can't repair (like components) > from a company where I have some way of getting a refund if they are > defective. I have purchased very, very large numbers of components (tens of thousands) on eBay and have never had one bit of trouble. I believe you're worrying unnecessarily. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 27 19:07:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:07:03 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC8B533.8060603@gifford.co.uk> References: , <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com>, <4CC8B533.8060603@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 0:26, John Honniball wrote: > > On the subject of binary to hex 7-segment decoders, has anyone > ever seen a DM9368? ISTR that it's a pre-programmed PROM of > some kind, taking in four bits of binary (plus some ripple > blanking pins) and outputting 7-segment drive signals for > 0-9 and A-F. No, there's a latch in there also. As I mentioned yesterday, it's part of the Fairchild 9368/9370/9374 series. As a pure ROM, you may be thinking of the MC4039, which, by Motorola's admission, was nothing but a preprogrammed version of the XC170 128-bit mask ROM. Circa 1969. The same ROM was used as the MC4001 BCD-to-Binary/Binary-to-BCD encoder. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 27 19:28:46 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:28:46 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC82FC4.11897.14EADFA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CC82FC4.11897.14EADFA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC8C3BE.5030909@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Consider, for example, the CDC 7600. Each peripheral processor (or > "channel" in alternative terminology) is hard-assigned a buffer in > SCM. The CPU has no way to talk its channels other than by writing > into these memory-mapped buffers. There are no CPU I/O ports or any > other way for the CPU to reach the outside world. The 6000 series > behaves similarly, but the PPUs get to read any memory address. > Typically, a "mailbox" is set up for PPU communication. > > So, did Seymour invent memory-mapped I/O? > > I suspect not. I'd consider a channel using a shared memory area as a type of I/O distinct from either port-mapped or memory-mapped. And the CDC 7600 (and 6600) certainly didn't invent the idea of a channel. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 27 23:05:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:05:21 -0600 Subject: vax 11/751 Message-ID: ok, I only have a couple photos of it, but its better than nothing. I was kinda rushed so I didn't think to open up the cabinet and take pictures of the guts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 27 23:13:43 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:13:43 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com>, <4CC8B533.8060603@gifford.co.uk> <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4b7981fa78ac55f4698c270b4af09222@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 27, at 5:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2010 at 0:26, John Honniball wrote: >> On the subject of binary to hex 7-segment decoders, has anyone >> ever seen a DM9368? ISTR that it's a pre-programmed PROM of >> some kind, taking in four bits of binary (plus some ripple >> blanking pins) and outputting 7-segment drive signals for >> 0-9 and A-F. > > No, there's a latch in there also. As I mentioned yesterday, it's > part of the Fairchild 9368/9370/9374 series .. they also differ from straight ROMS in their drive capabilities of course. The 68 and 74 have constant-current drivers for LEDs. Then there was National's oddball inverse-function IC: 7-segment input converted to BCD out. > As a pure ROM, you may be thinking of the MC4039, which, by > Motorola's admission, was nothing but a preprogrammed version of the > XC170 128-bit mask ROM. Circa 1969. > > The same ROM was used as the MC4001 BCD-to-Binary/Binary-to-BCD > encoder. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Oct 28 00:07:30 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:07:30 +0200 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC90512.9060609@bluewin.ch> On 10/28/2010 06:05 AM, Richard wrote: > ok, I only have a couple photos of it, but its better than nothing. I > was kinda rushed so I didn't think to open up the cabinet and take > pictures of the guts. > > Thanks Richard, finally a glimpse of the Lilith successor Eve ! It uses the same cabinet as my Lilith. I suppose you do not have any hardware docu to Eve ? And if you try to recover disk contents, there is a sinlge pass modula compiler for which we are missing source code..... Jos From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 01:31:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:31:32 -0600 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:07:30 +0200. <4CC90512.9060609@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4CC90512.9060609 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: > finally a glimpse of the Lilith successor Eve ! Eh what? This is a VAX, not the Lilith or Eve. > I suppose you do not have any hardware docu to Eve ? I just have boards and some systems. Apparently the documentation was all chucked before I had a chance to rescue it :-(. > And if you try to recover disk contents, there is a sinlge pass modula > compiler for which we are missing source code..... I do have some disks and I have to figure out how to image them. Its not standard SCSI or IDE style interface; I think its ESDI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Oct 28 01:42:21 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:42:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Re: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15158387.16821288248141850.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> In article <4CC90512.9060609 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: >> finally a glimpse of the Lilith successor Eve ! > Eh what? This is a VAX, not the Lilith or Eve. I of course took the liberty to look at your other pictures..... Nice collection you have there ! Jos From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 02:08:50 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:08:50 -0600 Subject: AW: Re: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:42:21 -0000. <15158387.16821288248141850.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <15158387.16821288248141850.JavaMail.webmail at bluewin.ch>, "jdr_use at bluewin.ch" writes: > I of course took the liberty to look at your > other pictures..... > Nice collection you have there ! Oh yes. The Eves don't look very interesting from that perspective, just beige boxes. However, I am making progress on my "to do list" for the collection. The Eves will work their way up the list and my first action item for them is to take pictures of everything I have, including all the boards. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Oct 28 09:11:45 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:11:45 -0400 Subject: Unknown Wangs (Intergraph Clipper Stations) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Robert Borsuk writes: > >> Yeah, I got one of the desk side clipper computers and can't find nothing on > it. >> Always pains me when you can't find a manual. > > Which model do you have? Does it look like these? > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! No, mine looks different. I took some pics of it this morning (even used the Kodak, not the iPhone) http://picasaweb.google.com/rborsuk I don't have anything else for it. It's an orphan in my collection. One of those deals that I couldn't pass up but now I ask what I'm going to do with it. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 28 09:30:55 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:30:55 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , ,,, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Hi Last night I put the tape in the drive and did a 'mt -f /dev/rst0 status' The drive seemed to do as expected. The tape shuttled back and forth and the status read out. Then I thought I'd try the retension as the tape had been sitting for some time. It started off OK then came to a stop. I looked at things and realized that the capstan had turned to goo. :( I'll have to try some tubing on it. Does anyone know the expected diameter of the capstan? I would think it wasn't too critical if I'm not trying to recover data from the tape I have. I had to clean out the tape case. It is not as easy to get the band back on if there is tape on both spools. I've done it in the past with just one full spool and then loaded the tape on the other after getting the band on. One just needs to feed on enough to get past the end of tape holes. There was just too much tape on both spools to do it that way. I hope I didn't crinkle the tape too much. I have the capstan offand cleaned up. rubbing alchohol seems to clean it off well enough. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 09:47:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:47:03 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4b7981fa78ac55f4698c270b4af09222@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC76E9A.8080800@brouhaha.com> <4CC8B533.8060603@gifford.co.uk> <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4b7981fa78ac55f4698c270b4af09222@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Then there was National's oddball inverse-function IC: 7-segment input > converted to BCD out. I have one of those in a binary clock kit. The clock chip is one of the standard National Semiconductor 1970s-era alarm clock IC, meant to directly drive a multiplexed multi-digit 7-segment module. The clock itself is more-or-less the reference design with that 7-segment-to-BCD between the clock IC and a grid of 12mm LEDs. I bought mine in 1994. Once the supply of those decoder chips dried up, the kit manufacturer switched the design to a PIC-based design. The clock I bought as a gift ten years later was the newer design. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 10:23:18 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:23:18 -0500 Subject: OT Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] In-Reply-To: <71156977.258352.1288114043372.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <71156977.258352.1288114043372.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CC99566.5010800@gmail.com> feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > The Anthropology collections at FMNH were numbered sequentially, which was > a bit of a PIA. Having looked in the catalog ledger books, I might know > that artifact 186276 is a Nazca pot collected by Alfred Kroeber in 1927, > but is 186277 from the same collecting field trip or is it something from > Tibet? Having a number like 1927.23.49 for that pot would make it easier to > find associated artifacts. Why does that need to be "encoded" in the artifact number? Why isn't there a "field trip ID", and to find anything from a given field trip you just search for everything with the same ID? I think a lot of these systems fall down because they try to put too much meaningful information into one single ID, and that doesn't scale well as the system grows - they'd be better off having an ID linking a single item to a database record, and other fields in that database record may be used to tie that individual item to related ones. In a computing context, I hit the same issue of trying to decide what level to catalogue at - e.g. should I catalogue every board in a system with a separate database entry because capturing that data might be important? But taken to extremes, if I did that does it mean I should be recording every IC on every board because that S100 system in the corner over there happens to be the only one with an example of serial board "foo" which uses IC "bar"? There's a bit of a "where does it end?" aspect to it all :-) I kept finding myself leaning toward just doing things at the "system box" level along with taking of extensive photographs (and listing of internal cards and "important stuff"*), and if a researcher wanted more detail than that then they'd just have some digging to do (which is fun anyway). * as was said, whoever does the cataloguing needs knowledge of the item being catalogued, and it shouldn't be down to just one person (the same thing is true when it comes to deciding what items should be accepted into the collection - the field's just too diverse for it to be down to one person, and an item which seems dull to one member might be recognised as significant to another). And don't even get me started on how to try and organise stuff in storage... ;-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 10:41:18 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:41:18 +0100 Subject: Offerered - free - near London: LOADS of sofware, mostly quite old. Message-ID: Typically on 3.5" floppy. Unless otherwise stated, items are boxed with manuals and 3.5" floppies - believed complete, presumed maybe readable. Also listed on Freegle. THIS STUFF MUST be gone by the weekend or it's going on the tip. If interested, please email: "Chris Comley" MS Excel for Windows v 4 - box, manuals, floppies MS Office 95 Standard - box, maunals CD. Symantec "Norton" backup v3.0 - box, manuals, floppies MS SDK for Win32 NT - floppy and CD - (1993 vintage) MS Windows for Workgroups 3.11 - retail box, floppies MS DOS 6.2 "UPGRADE" - retail box - floppies Wordperfect 6.0 for Windows. unopened retail box - floppies MS Project 4.0 - update - OEM box - floppies MS NT Server 3.51 "step-up edition" - retail box - floppies and CDs. Informix WINGZ 1.1 - Windows and OS2 edition. 52.5 floppies MS Backoffice Svr 2.0 retail box - CDs MS Windows NT "Training" - set of books, CDs, VHS tape. (Refers to ver 3.51) After Dark screen saver for Windows - 3.0 - box, maunals, floppy Stacker 2.0 disk comperssion s/w - box manuals dual floppies Stacker 3.0 disk compression s/w - for Windows and DOS - Upgrade pack - floppies Apple Remote Access client for Macintosh - still sealed. HP NewWave 3.0 for Windows - retail box, manuals, 5.25" floppies Epson Esc/p (printer command language) reference manual The Corporate Retreiveal - text retreival s/w - manuals, 5.25% floppies Arcserve ver4 for Netware 2.2 (5usr) - manual, box, floppies Sitka "10-net" networking s/w - v5.0 - for Windows and DOS - 3 user starter pack - dual floppy Supercalc 5 ref manual (manual only no s/w) Wordperfect for Windows 5.2 - box, .manuals, floppies Book - The Internet, complete reference (Osborne Books) (c) 1994 (Confused.com take note!!) Crosstalk for Windows - dual floppy, box, mnanuals Double DOS - multitasking for DOS - manual, floppyies. McAfee VIrus Scan Deluxe - v4 (1998) - box, manual, dual floppies MS "Plus" companion pack for W95. box, manual CD Delrina Winfax Pro v 4.0 - box, manual. floppies MS Access UPGRADE 2.0, box, manuals, floppies Lotus Notes WIndows Client 3.0 - manual, box, flopps MS Office UPDATE ver 4.2 box. lots of manuals, floppies MS Office 4.2 - box of floppies only Slackware Linux rel 1.1 - glossy box and CDs Pinpoint "Clicknet" 2.0 Pro - Network diagram tools - box, mans, floppies MS Excel 3.0 - white box, 5.25 Disks MS Office UPDATE 4.2 - box, incomplete manuals - floppies From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 28 11:28:49 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:28:49 -0700 Subject: OT Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting In-Reply-To: <4CC99566.5010800@gmail.com> References: <71156977.258352.1288114043372.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4CC99566.5010800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CC9A4C1.80900@bitsavers.org> On 10/28/10 8:23 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > should I catalogue every board in a system with a separate database entry CHM uses lot numbers (Xyyyy.nnnn) for artifacts that come together as a single donation, and 9 digit accession numbers for each part that can have a separate storage location. Sub-assemblies of an artifact with a single location are recorded in the descriptive comment field. -- The CHM inventory started as a Filemaker data base. We now are using Mimsy XG http://www.selagodesign.com/portfolio/mimsyxg.php which is designed for museum collection management. If someone were starting today, they would probably just use a relational data base with a single unique identifier and have related fields for the lot and assembly heirarchy. You need at least the donor/lot grouping, and physical location of the artifact. Collections management needs several other groupings as well (on loan, etc.) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 11:57:11 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:57:11 -0500 Subject: OT Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting In-Reply-To: <4CC9A4C1.80900@bitsavers.org> References: <71156977.258352.1288114043372.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4CC99566.5010800@gmail.com> <4CC9A4C1.80900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CC9AB67.8040408@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > If someone were starting today, they would probably just use a > relational data base with a single > unique identifier and have related fields for the lot and assembly > heirarchy. Yes, that seemed logical to me - it just didn't seem to be the way that most museums operate. Maybe it's down to historical hang-up (after all, I can see that there are benefits to attaching semantics to ID numbers if you don't have a nice computer-driven search system on-tap), or maybe there's some sort of fundamental assumption made that *any* museum is like a library (just not for books) and so has to have some kind of dewey-a-like cataloguing system. > You need at least the donor/lot grouping, and physical location of the > artifact. Collections management > needs several other groupings as well (on loan, etc.) Yes, I ended up needing quite a number of fields per asset record - some of those being pointers to other records in other tables, each with several fields of their own. I don't think that the implementation is by any means complicated, but the amount of information that needs to be captured gets quite large, and there's a lot of effort required in deciding exactly what to capture. It's surprising how much of the data ends up being quite freeform in nature too, with lots of care needed when entering it into the system. cheers Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 28 12:12:05 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:12:05 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: (sfid-20101027_113324_621125_2F9D6164) References: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> (sfid-20101027_113324_621125_2F9D6164) Message-ID: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:31 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> In this case I think popularity is important. The '11 instruction set was >> somewhat of a >> departure from other machines in that it was very "programmer friendly". > > I think a lot of people would not agree with that. The PDP-10 people, > for example. agreed. >> You could insert a small paragraph here about the role of unix and how unix >> and >> the pdp-11 and vax interacted. > > Are you saying that the PDP-11 and VAX were the first machines where > the hardware and software were both considered and designed together? > Once again, I think a lot of people would not agree with that. No, I didn't say that at all. I was just saying that the it would be interesting to explore how the pdp-11 and VAX architectures influenced the design of unix, and how unix, in turn, influenced software development as a whole. I thin the two are interrelated. As I recall, in 1983, running unix on a VAX was the "hot setup" for software developers. Followed soon by running unix on a Sun... -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 12:20:25 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:20:25 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> References: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > No, I didn't say that at all. ?I was just saying that the it would be interesting to > explore how the pdp-11 and VAX architectures influenced the design of unix, > and how unix, in turn, influenced software development as a whole. ?I thin > the two are interrelated. > > As I recall, in 1983, running unix on a VAX was the "hot setup" for software > developers. ?Followed soon by running unix on a Sun... I was initially thinking about just the hardware architecture when the machines were being designed, not the software aspect, nor what the machines did (or influenced) after they were released. The aforementioned memory mapped I/O, for example. I do not think anyone can deny the importance of the PDP-11 and VAX to the software development scene. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 12:23:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:23:04 -0600 Subject: Unknown Wangs (Intergraph Clipper Stations) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:11:45 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > > On Oct 27, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Richard wrote: > > Which model do you have? Does it look like these? > > > > No, mine looks different. I took some pics of it this morning (even used the Kodak, not the iPhone) > > http://picasaweb.google.com/rborsuk I am not an expert on this, but my guess is that I have the "smaller" version of the workstation (holds fewer expansion boards) and you have the "larger" version of the workstation. They use a custom keyboard which you can see in the album I posted above. I believe the monitor is a standard 13W3 style connection. Mine came with tablets and pucks, but no docs and I haven't opened the case to see if the hard drives are still present. E&S and SGI both made similar "smaller" and "larger" versions of the same workstation, with the only significant difference being the number of boards you could add into the system (which sometimes had implications for how much graphics you could put into the system as well). If you want someone to adopt your orphan, I'm willing :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 12:51:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:51:03 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: , <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com>, Message-ID: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 13:20, William Donzelli wrote: > I was initially thinking about just the hardware architecture when the > machines were being designed, not the software aspect, nor what the > machines did (or influenced) after they were released. The > aforementioned memory mapped I/O, for example. Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but how many of those DEC-unique innovations (even if you manage to assert that they originated with DEC) persist in today's hardware? Do modern PCs use memory-mapped I/O? The 68K, but for some Freescale relics, is history. Major innovations, such as virtual memory and orthogonal instruction sets and hardware-implemented stacks preceded the PDP-11. Perhaps the major contribution of the PDP-11 and VAX was that they were comparatively cheap for the processing power. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 28 13:05:44 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:05:44 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> References: <4CC8234E.3080309@heeltoe.com> (sfid-20101027_113324_621125_2F9D6164) <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: Brad Parker Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:12 AM On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:31 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> You could insert a small paragraph here about the role of unix and how >>> unix and the pdp-11 and vax interacted. >> Are you saying that the PDP-11 and VAX were the first machines where >> the hardware and software were both considered and designed together? >> Once again, I think a lot of people would not agree with that. > No, I didn't say that at all. I was just saying that the it would be > interesting to explore how the pdp-11 and VAX architectures influenced > the design of unix, and how unix, in turn, influenced software > development as a whole. I thin the two are interrelated. >From what Thompson and Ritchie have written about the origins of Unix, the PDP-11's architecture had very little to do with how it was created. The original PDP-7 Unix (specific I/O ports addressed in I/O instructions, 18-bit words, word addressing) was taken up and ported to the PDP-11 with few or no user-visible changes. Because the VAX offered a virtual memory capability (hi, Johnny! :-), it did change the way Unix developed, but so did other ports (Interdata, for example, and even the IBM Series/1). > As I recall, in 1983, running unix on a VAX was the "hot setup" for > software developers. Followed soon by running unix on a Sun... You seem to forget other mini manufacturers. The University of Chicago, for example, eschewed the VAX altogether in favour of a Pyramid 90x in 1983. In fact, when I took classes in Unix administration in the late c. 1990 while working at Stanford, the outfit teaching the classes used a Pyramid system so that we could learn both BSD and ATT style admin tools. (Stanford is of course where SUN came into being.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 13:36:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com>, <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC9C2C5.2010405@neurotica.com> On 10/28/10 1:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but how many of those DEC-unique > innovations (even if you manage to assert that they originated with > DEC) persist in today's hardware? Do modern PCs use memory-mapped > I/O? The 68K, but for some Freescale relics, is history. Relics? The Freescale 68K variants are actually pretty mainstream. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 28 13:42:44 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:42:44 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com>, <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49199869c516a733b29dd5bc1115d249@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 28, at 10:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2010 at 13:20, William Donzelli wrote: >> I was initially thinking about just the hardware architecture when the >> machines were being designed, not the software aspect, nor what the >> machines did (or influenced) after they were released. The >> aforementioned memory mapped I/O, for example. > > Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but how many of those DEC-unique > innovations (even if you manage to assert that they originated with > DEC) persist in today's hardware? Do modern PCs use memory-mapped > I/O? The 68K, but for some Freescale relics, is history. > > Major innovations, such as virtual memory and orthogonal instruction > sets and hardware-implemented stacks preceded the PDP-11. How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? The VAX was riding on the coattails of the market success of the -11 and provided existing PDP-11 installations with increasing demands with a way forward, and it grew from there. That's a bit of a tautology, but it is to say it did exactly what it was designed and marketed for. On the topic of memory, I would agree with Johnny about "virtual addresses", but differ on "virtual memory": virtual memory to me has always meant demand-paging where the RAM address-space seen by the user can be larger than the physical RAM, distinct from the simple mapping of addresses, but the use of the term is a matter of definition. > Perhaps the major contribution of the PDP-11 and VAX was that they > were comparatively cheap for the processing power. .. the right product, at the right time, at the right price, from an established and reliable manufacturer/source. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 28 13:49:01 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:49:01 -0700 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 27, at 9:05 PM, Richard wrote: > ok, I only have a couple photos of it, but its better than nothing. I > was kinda rushed so I didn't think to open up the cabinet and take > pictures of the guts. > I spent the better part of the 80's programming on a 750, and working around it (and occasionally in it) in the machine room. The extra-wide cabinet always seemed out of place next to all the 19-inch rack equipment and I wondered why DEC went to the trouble to make it that way. I never knew about the regular rack-width 751 until now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 13:50:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:50:53 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <49199869c516a733b29dd5bc1115d249@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> <49199869c516a733b29dd5bc1115d249@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but > then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? Like the S/360? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 13:52:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:52:29 -0400 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9C66D.7010001@neurotica.com> On 10/28/10 2:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I spent the better part of the 80's programming on a 750, and working > around it (and occasionally in it) in the machine room. I always tucked extra cable and stuff in that left side when raised floor wasn't available. The battery backup option also mounts over there if memory serves, but doesn't take up the whole space. > The extra-wide cabinet always seemed out of place next to all the > 19-inch rack equipment and I wondered why DEC went to the trouble to > make it that way. I never knew about the regular rack-width 751 until now. They really are nice. If I can find some cash I'm hoping to find a way to get ahold of that machine. That's not terribly likely but one can hope. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 28 13:52:20 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:52:20 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but how many of those DEC-unique > innovations (even if you manage to assert that they originated with > DEC) persist in today's hardware? Do modern PCs use memory-mapped > I/O? The 68K, but for some Freescale relics, is history. Given that x86 is king today that means it all goes back to the 4004 :-) > Major innovations, such as virtual memory and orthogonal instruction > sets and hardware-implemented stacks preceded the PDP-11. > > Perhaps the major contribution of the PDP-11 and VAX was that they > were comparatively cheap for the processing power. Neither VM nor a sensible ISA originated with VAX-11 (or PDP-11) but these architectures were very popular and exposed many people to these sorts of features. Being hugely influential doesn't (necessarily) mean being the first with anything. VM, for example, is as old as the hills, I can find references as far back as Atlas but I'd not be surprised if someone now points out a known implementation even earlier. BTW modern PCs are only just beginning to shake off their UARTs: wasn't that an invention of one G. Bell for the PDP-11? (My "Computer Engineering" isn't to hand right now so I may be going out on a limb here ...) Antonio From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 13:55:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:55:09 -0400 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The extra-wide cabinet always seemed out of place next to all the 19-inch > rack equipment and I wondered why DEC went to the trouble to make it that > way. I never knew about the regular rack-width 751 until now. DEC and IBM and many others went to wider cabinets to keep costs lower. Less interconnections, basically, and connectors cost real money. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 14:06:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:06:15 -0400 Subject: vax 11/751 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9C9A7.2080003@neurotica.com> On 10/28/10 2:55 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The extra-wide cabinet always seemed out of place next to all the 19-inch >> rack equipment and I wondered why DEC went to the trouble to make it that >> way. I never knew about the regular rack-width 751 until now. > > DEC and IBM and many others went to wider cabinets to keep costs > lower. Less interconnections, basically, and connectors cost real > money. In many cases, DEC's wider racks had no interconnect reduction benefits, at least none that I can identify. For example, the 11/750 is (more or less) a 19" rack machine in a rack with a wide cableway on the left side. It'd have the same number of connectors with or without that extension. The DECdatasystem-570 configuration of the PDP-11/70 is more of the same, just a lot more air in the box. Same connectors. The DECsystem-2020 contains card cages which don't appear to be helped really at all by the wider rack. The CPU/memory card cage (bottom) has big gaps on both sides, and the Unibus card cage (top) has a big gap to its right. It makes cabling more convenient, sure, but I fail to see how it reduces interconnects. The PDP-11/60 is similar, with lots of air surrounding fairly ordinary rack-width card cages. I can see your point where machines like the VAX-11/780 and larger 8000 series are concerned, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bear at typewritten.org Thu Oct 28 14:15:08 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:15:08 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org> On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:30 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Does anyone know the expected diameter of > the capstan? It's just under 0.500". I have a note next to this that says (31/64"??). At the time I measured it it wasn't clear to me whether there was some sort of standard sizing for this type of thing that it could be better referred to as. ok bear From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 14:00:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:00:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC83DA0.26218.185C937@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 02:56:32 pm Message-ID: > I think the opcode subfield length determining the display radix of a > system is a red herring. Because the Atmel AVR microcontrollers have > 32 8-bit registers, should base-32 be used as the display radix? What is wrong with base 32 :-) Mroe seriously, there are undoubtedly many instruction sets that are no easier to decode whether written in hex or octal. And for those it makes no difference which you use. But there are soem that are a lot easier to understnad in one number system than in the other, and for those it makes sense, at least to me, to use said number ssytem. The PDP11 is one such. It's easy to hand-assemble/disassemble when written in octal, a lot harder when written in hex. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 13:35:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:35:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <768562.19594.qm@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Oct 27, 10 02:26:05 pm Message-ID: > [It's the HP9800 CPU if anyone's curious...] > > I'm interested. Those are great little machines. I think it would be really > interesting to put that CPU in an FPGA. Are there some documents describing the > architecture and the microcode? Personally I'd rather have the original processor in 80 (or so) simple logic chips and ROMs, but anyway... There are many sources of information on these machines, there's probably enough infroamtion out there to recreate them. THe patents for these machines (separate ones for the 9810, 9820 and 9830) are very informative and include schematics and firmware listings for the prototypes and some their options. Th production machines do differ in some details, so be caareful if you use this information to repair one. I can't rememebr the patent numbers, but I think they're on Eric Smith's site (http://www.brouhaha.com/), or I can see if I can dig them out. There's a lot of information (user manuals, HP service manuals (boardswapper guides) and schematics) on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ There's an hp9800 emulator (I can't rememebnr what it runs on...) which includes dumps of the firmware ROMs. I think it's linked from sourceforge. I have dumps of the CPU micorocde and ALU roms. I also have an annotated CPU microcode source listing. I'll be happy to make thes available. For reference, here's the CPU microcode word format : HP98x0 microcode word bits --------------------------- 0 : Toggle uA4 ) 1 : Toggle uA5 ) Select condition (Qualifier) 2 : Toggle uA6 ) 3 : Toggle uA7 ) 4 : Toggle uA1 5 : Toggle uA2 6 : Toggle uA3 7 : Toggle uA0 8 : ) 9 : ) Number of shift clocks - 1 10 : ) 11 : ) 12 : Rd A/B (If R=0, QmuJMP, if R=1, I/O operation) 13 : ALU(1) 14 : ALU(0) 15 : IQN (Inhibit shift clock by condition) 16 : R(2) 17 : R(1) 18 : R(0) 19 : Enable condition 20 : ALU(2) 21 : X(1) 22 : X(2) 23 : X(0) 24 : ALU S input control SC(1) 25 : ALU S input control SC(0) 26 : ALU -> T register 27 : ALU -> M register SC(1) SC(0) 0 0 0 -> S_ALU 0 1 M -> S_ALU 1 0 T -> S_ALU 1 1 1 -> S_ALU R(2) R(1) R(0) 0 0 0 1 -> R_ALU 0 0 1 P -> R_ALU 0 1 0 T -> E, E -> R_ALU 0 1 1 Memory Write (Treg -> memory) 1 0 0 ALU -> Q(6) 1 0 1 Q -> R_ALU 1 1 0 Memroy Read (memory -> Treg) 1 1 1 0 -> R_ALU X(2) X(1) X(0) 0 0 0 ALU -> Q 0 0 1 Q(11) -> A/B select Flip-Flop, clear BCD carry 0 1 0 ALU BCD mode 0 1 1 ALU -> E, E -> R_ALU 1 0 0 Invert A/B select Flip-Flop 1 0 1 ALU -> P 1 1 0 ALU -> A/B 1 1 1 None of the above If X=3 and R=2, then ALU -> A/B (not E), E->R_ALU, and 0->E ALU(2) ALU(1) ALU(0) 0 0 0 XOR 0 0 1 AND 0 1 0 IOR 0 1 1 Zero 1 0 0 Zero, clear carry 1 0 1 IOR, clear carry 1 1 0 IOR, set carry 1 1 1 Add Conditions 0 : Q(0) 1 : Q(1) 2 : Q(2) 3 : Q(3) 4 : Q(4) 5 : Q(5) 6 : Q(6) 7 : Carry 8 : P bit 0 9 : Q(15) 10 : Memory reference instruction 11 : Q(10) 12 : I/O flag 13 : Q(8) 14 : BCD Carry 15 : I/O running And the CPU machine code instruction set : Memory Reference 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ADA IND 0 0 0 0 Z/C | Address | ADB IND 0 0 0 1 Z/C | Address | CPA IND 0 0 1 0 Z/C | Address | CPB IND 0 0 1 1 Z/C | Address | LDA IND 0 1 0 0 Z/C | Address | LDB IND 0 1 0 1 Z/C | Address | STA IND 0 1 1 0 Z/C | Address | STB IND 0 1 1 1 Z/C | Address | IOR IND 1 0 0 0 Z/C | Address | ISZ IND 1 0 0 1 Z/C | Address | AND IND 1 0 1 0 Z/C | Address | DSZ IND 1 0 1 1 Z/C | Address | JSM IND 1 1 0 0 Z/C | Address | JMP IND 1 1 0 1 Z/C | Address | Shift 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 AAR 0 1 1 1 0 X X | Shift | X 0 0 0 0 ABR 0 1 1 1 1 X X | Shift | X 0 0 0 0 SAR 0 1 1 1 0 X X | Shift | X 0 0 1 0 SBR 0 1 1 1 1 X X | Shift | X 0 0 1 0 SAL 0 1 1 1 0 X X | Shift | X 0 1 0 0 SBL 0 1 1 1 1 X X | Shift | X 0 1 0 0 RAR 0 1 1 1 0 X X | Shift | X 0 1 1 0 RBR 0 1 1 1 1 X X | Shift | X 0 1 1 0 Skip/Alter 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 SZA 0 1 1 1 0 0 | Skip Offset | 0 1 0 0 0 SZB 0 1 1 1 1 0 | Skip Offset | 0 1 0 0 0 RZA 0 1 1 1 0 1 | Skip Offset | 0 1 0 0 0 RZB 0 1 1 1 1 1 | Skip Offset | 0 1 0 0 0 SIA 0 1 1 1 0 0 | Skip Offset | 1 1 0 0 0 SIB 0 1 1 1 1 0 | Skip Offset | 1 1 0 0 0 RIA 0 1 1 1 0 1 | Skip Offset | 1 1 0 0 0 RIB 0 1 1 1 1 1 | Skip Offset | 1 1 0 0 0 SLA 0 1 1 1 0 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 0 1 SLB 0 1 1 1 1 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 0 1 SAM 0 1 1 1 0 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 1 0 SBM 0 1 1 1 1 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 1 0 SAP 0 1 1 1 0 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 1 1 SBP 0 1 1 1 1 S | Skip Offset | C 1 0 1 1 SES 0 1 1 1 0 S | Skip Offset | C 1 1 0 0 SEC 0 1 1 1 1 S | Skip Offset | C 1 1 0 1 Register Reference 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ADA 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 ADB 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 CPA 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 CPB 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 LDA 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 LDB 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 STA 0 1 1 1 A/B X X 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 STB 0 1 1 1 A/B X X 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 IOR 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 ISZ 0 1 1 1 A/B X X 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 AND 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 DSZ 0 1 1 1 A/B X X 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 JSM 0 1 1 1 A/B X X 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 JMP 0 1 1 1 A/B X X IND 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 DMA/extras 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 CMA 0 1 1 1 0 X X X X X 1 0 1 1 1 0 CMB 0 1 1 1 1 X X X X X 1 0 1 1 1 0 TCA 0 1 1 1 0 X X X X X 1 1 1 1 1 0 TCB 0 1 1 1 1 X X X X X 1 1 1 1 1 0 EXA 0 1 1 1 0 X X X X X 0 0 1 1 1 0 EXB 0 1 1 1 1 X X X X X 0 0 1 1 1 0 CMA 0 1 1 1 0 X X X X X 0 1 1 1 1 0 I/O group 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 STF 1 1 1 1 X 1 0 1 1 1 1 | Select Code | CLF 1 1 1 1 X 1 1 1 1 1 1 | Select Code | SFC 1 1 1 1 X 1 H/C 1 1 1 0 | Select Code | SFS 1 1 1 1 X 1 H/C 1 0 1 0 | Select Code | CLC 1 1 1 1 X 1 H/C 1 0 1 1 | Select Code | STC 1 1 1 1 X 1 H/C 1 1 0 0 | Select Code | OT* 1 1 1 1 A/B 1 H/C 0 0 1 1 | Select Code | LI* 1 1 1 1 A/B 1 H/C 0 1 0 1 | Select Code | MI* 1 1 1 1 A/B 1 H/C 0 0 0 1 | Select Code | Macro Group 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 RET 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 MOV 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 CLR 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 XFR 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 MRX 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 MRY 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 MLS 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 DRS 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 DLS 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 FXA 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 FMP 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 FDV 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 CMX 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 CMY 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 MDI 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 NRM 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 I am happy to chat about these fine amchines (I have a 9810, 9820 and 9830, all fo which I've reparied...) as much as you like :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 14:07:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 05:07:03 pm Message-ID: > As a pure ROM, you may be thinking of the MC4039, which, by > Motorola's admission, was nothing but a preprogrammed version of the > XC170 128-bit mask ROM. Circa 1969. If you ingnroe 'progammable' devices (PROMs, PALs, FPGAs, etc), what's the simplest solution for getting 0-9,A-F from 4 bits of binary using only 74xxx devices (and preferably common ones). I can trivially do it in 7 such chips, but alas they're all 24 pin devices. Anything simpler? > > The same ROM was used as the MC4001 BCD-to-Binary/Binary-to-BCD > encoder. I beleive the 74184/74185 BCD<->binary converters were programmed ROM/PROMs too. And as an aside, there were some MMI logic chips, things like counters with extra facilities, which were clearly programmed PALs/HALs. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 14:34:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:34:51 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:51:03 -0700. <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CC95597.9247.C408E0 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Do modern PCs use memory-mapped I/O? Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you can't do memory-mapped I/O. Memory mapped IO is ubuiqitous in MS-DOS based PCs, as it is generally fastest to write directly to the memory-mapped display memory for CGA and VGA displays. DOOM and many other MS-DOS VGA style games use this technique to get the framerates they need. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 28 15:04:47 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:04:47 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> <49199869c516a733b29dd5bc1115d249@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <53550b2c7040862e13677c1527353c6e@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 28, at 11:50 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but >> then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? > > Like the S/360? Perhaps, but different innovations at a different time. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 28 15:11:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:11:59 +0100 Subject: IBM 2.88MB floppy drive (64F0204 / 72X6101 / Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA) pinout Message-ID: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> Hi guys, I'm pretty sure someone posted this on-list in the past (possibly Chuck?), but I can't find it in my local archive or on the classiccmp.org list archive... I've got a Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA disc drive, part number 72X6101. This is apparently a 2.88MB disc drive from an IBM PS/2, and was (near as I can tell) also sold as an FRU under part number 64F0204. Here's where the confusion starts: it uses a single 34-pin connector for both power and data. I found this site: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/floppy/Floppy_Pinouts.html#34-pin_MS And another page with similar information: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/floppy/floppy.html). These give the 34-pin interface pinouts, including the details for the Electronic Eject drive (the 92F0132, aka Sony MP-F40W-07 / MFD-40W-05) and a stern warning to leave pin 6 (+12V) open... Catch is there's nothing about Data Rate Select on pin 2 (which appears to be 0V for 720K and 1.44MB, or high/floating for 2.88MB), or the Media Type ID and Drive Type ID pins. Basically what I want to do is put this drive in a PC, format a couple of 2.88MB discs, then wire it up to the DiscFerret and make sure the acquisition engine and decoder can handle the higher data rate. The timing analyser and simulator say it should work, but I'd actually like to see it working :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 15:14:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:14:11 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9C2C5.2010405@neurotica.com> References: , <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CC9C2C5.2010405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CC97723.21193.1485BEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 14:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Relics? The Freescale 68K variants are actually pretty mainstream. If Freescale survives, perhaps. But after being spun off from Motorola and passed around as an LBO, Freescale has a lot of debt to service. If Freescale goes down the rathole, I suspect that 68K architecture will disappear completely very quickly. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 15:24:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:24:48 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 13:34, Richard wrote: > Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you > can't do memory-mapped I/O. Just because a CPU doesn't have any I/O instructions or I/O space, doesn't mean that you can't invent them. > Memory mapped IO is ubuiqitous in MS-DOS based PCs, as it is generally > fastest to write directly to the memory-mapped display memory for > CGA > and VGA displays. And there were other PC displays, that didn't use memory-mapped video at all. One liability with the PC was that you weren't able to move display space anywhere--software assumed it to be at a fixed location. That pretty much limited real-mode RAM space to 640K, which eventually became something of a liability until protected-mode CPUs with address remapping came along. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 15:36:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:36:59 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:24:48 -0700. <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CC979A0.22930.152134D at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > Memory mapped IO is ubuiqitous in MS-DOS based PCs, as it is generally > > fastest to write directly to the memory-mapped display memory for > > CGA > and VGA displays. > > And there were other PC displays, that didn't use memory-mapped video > at all. You asked if it was used on modern PCs. The answer is yes. Every PC these days supports standard VGA/monochrome display adapter functionality which uses a memory-mapped framebuffer. Even the high-end 3D cards support this functionality, albeit as a legacy from past architectures. Some modern video cards use memory-mapped IO for their interaction with the CPU in terms of doing things like providing a common address space for uploading textures and other 3D data. They don't provide low-level control registers to the CPU for manipulating the video card because that eliminates potential parallelism between the CPU and the GPU. The GPU has become a smart coprocessor with shared address space for transferring large amounts of data that needs to be directly manipulated by the CPU and the GPU. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 28 15:56:54 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:56:54 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101028205654.GE28198@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 28 Oct 2010 at 13:34, Richard wrote: > > > Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you > > can't do memory-mapped I/O. > > Just because a CPU doesn't have any I/O instructions or I/O space, > doesn't mean that you can't invent them. > > > Memory mapped IO is ubuiqitous in MS-DOS based PCs, as it is generally > > fastest to write directly to the memory-mapped display memory for > > CGA > and VGA displays. > > And there were other PC displays, that didn't use memory-mapped video > at all. One liability with the PC was that you weren't able to move > display space anywhere--software assumed it to be at a fixed > location. That pretty much limited real-mode RAM space to 640K, > which eventually became something of a liability until protected-mode > CPUs with address remapping came along. The limit to 640k was for two reasons: 1) IBM decided to stick I/O and ROM space starting at $A0000 and 2) MS-DOS required a contiguous memory region (it couldn't deal with holes in memory). Oh, and 3) nobody knows quite who said "640k should be enough for everybody." It could have been IBM; it could have been Microsoft. -spc (Gah! Why is this information still in my head? I haven't used MS-DOS for fifteen years now!) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 16:03:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:03:24 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4CC982AC.24989.1756BE2@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 14:36, Richard wrote: > You asked if it was used on modern PCs. The answer is yes. Every PC > these days supports standard VGA/monochrome display adapter > functionality which uses a memory-mapped framebuffer. Even the > high-end 3D cards support this functionality, albeit as a legacy from > past architectures. I probably should have said "modern PCs exclusively use memory-mapped I/O" a la PDP-11 or CP-1600 or MC6800... Clearly there, the answer is "no". They have I/O address space and use it. Not that I think that memory-mapped I/O is a bad idea. Most microcontrollers are witness to that. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 28 16:06:18 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:06:18 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9E5CA.8070602@brouhaha.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Given that x86 is king today that means it all goes back to the 4004 :-) Not really. The 8008 and 8080 architectures, and their successors, are almost entirely unlike the 4004 and 4040. Intel worked with Busicom on the definition of hte 4004 architecture, but the 8008 architecture came from the Datapoint 2200. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 16:08:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:08:58 -0700 Subject: IBM 2.88MB floppy drive (64F0204 / 72X6101 / Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA) pinout In-Reply-To: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> References: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CC983FA.3225.17A8464@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm pretty sure someone posted this on-list in the past (possibly > Chuck?), but I can't find it in my local archive or on the > classiccmp.org list archive... Phil, I'm not a PS/2 freak, but maybe someone on the list is. When I've used 2.88M media, it's always been with Teac FD235J drives: http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/3fd0010a.pdf Maybe that will shed some light, maybe not. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 16:16:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:16:12 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC97723.21193.1485BEF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CC9C2C5.2010405@neurotica.com> <4CC97723.21193.1485BEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CC9E81C.5070901@neurotica.com> On 10/28/10 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Relics? The Freescale 68K variants are actually pretty mainstream. > > If Freescale survives, perhaps. But after being spun off from > Motorola and passed around as an LBO, Freescale has a lot of debt to > service. Yes, but their market share is HUGE. Time will tell, but I for one will be shocked out of my gourd if Freescale goes away. > If Freescale goes down the rathole, I suspect that 68K architecture > will disappear completely very quickly. Well of course, as is the case with any (nearly-)single-source architecture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 16:14:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:14:48 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 05:07:03 pm, Message-ID: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: > If you ingnroe 'progammable' devices (PROMs, PALs, FPGAs, etc), what's > the simplest solution for getting 0-9,A-F from 4 bits of binary using > only 74xxx devices (and preferably common ones). I can trivially do it > in 7 such chips, but alas they're all 24 pin devices. Anything > simpler? Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 28 16:24:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:24:45 -0700 Subject: IBM 2.88MB floppy drive (64F0204 / 72X6101 / Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA) pinout In-Reply-To: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> References: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CC987AD.14089.188F50B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > MF356C Also, have a look at the back sections of the Intel 82077SL datasheet: http://download.intel.com/design/archives/periphrl/docs/29209302.pdf It discusses the interface to several drives, including the MF356C. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 16:40:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:40:46 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:03:24 -0700. <4CC982AC.24989.1756BE2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CC982AC.24989.1756BE2 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I probably should have said "modern PCs exclusively use memory-mapped > I/O" a la PDP-11 or CP-1600 or MC6800... Well if you're just fishing for a self-fulfilling prophecy, I fail to see the point of the question. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 28 17:06:52 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:06:52 +0100 Subject: IBM 2.88MB floppy drive (64F0204 / 72X6101 / Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA) pinout In-Reply-To: <4CC983FA.3225.17A8464@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1288296719.29626.0.camel@cheetah> <4CC983FA.3225.17A8464@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1288303612.30245.9.camel@cheetah> On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 14:08 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Phil, I'm not a PS/2 freak, but maybe someone on the list is. Ah, that might explain why the Mass Grepping of the Maildir didn't find anything... > When I've used 2.88M media, it's always been with Teac FD235J drives: > http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/3fd0010a.pdf *goes looking for one of those to buy* *has kittens when he sees the price* ?190?! o_O (though this is from a particular UK ebayer I won't bother naming, who seems to respond to every neg by insulting the buyer, and generally lists things at insane prices anyway...) Le sigh... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 28 17:55:12 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:55:12 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 05:07:03 pm, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 28, at 2:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2010 at 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: >> If you ingnroe 'progammable' devices (PROMs, PALs, FPGAs, etc), what's >> the simplest solution for getting 0-9,A-F from 4 bits of binary using >> only 74xxx devices (and preferably common ones). I can trivially do it >> in 7 such chips, but alas they're all 24 pin devices. Anything >> simpler? > > Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if > no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... OK, I claim three solutions: a) - 7 packages (all 14/16-pin) - 6.666 utilisation - (and 7 pull-up resistors, to be pedantic) - regular TTL active-high outputs b) - 8 packages (all 14/16-pin) - 6.9 utilisation - high-drive active-low outputs for direct-drive of LEDs c) - 7 packages (1 20-pin, 6 14/16-pin) - 6.75 utilisation - high-drive active-low outputs for direct-drive of LEDs Is there a prize if I win? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 28 18:05:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com>, <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101028154148.E53389@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps the major contribution of the PDP-11 and VAX was that they > were comparatively cheap for the processing power. "They DEFINED the MINI-computer market segment!" There were years when fresh CS graduates didn't accept the existence of anything else - much like Windoze now is for the general public. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 28 18:11:06 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:11:06 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org> References: , , ,,, , ,,, ,,, , , , , , , <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org> Message-ID: > From: bear at typewritten.org > > > On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:30 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Does anyone know the expected diameter of > > the capstan? > > It's just under 0.500". I have a note next to this that says > (31/64"??). At the time I measured it it wasn't clear to me whether > there was some sort of standard sizing for this type of thing that it > could be better referred to as. > > ok > bear Hi Bear My guess is that it doesn't have to be exactly the right size. I'm sure that when reading the data, it uses a servo-loop. When writing, it would care but a little fast of slow shouldn't make a big difference. I'll target 0.5 or slightly smaller. Smaller will give me more data ;) It was a mess. I wish I'd looked first. I know better just didn't look. It is under the pully and hard to see. The ebay seller said it was from a working system. I guess he didn't say how many years had gone by since it was working! Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 28 18:14:08 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:14:08 -0600 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 05:07:03 pm, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CCA03C0.5080600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 28/10/2010 4:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: ...one else does. It should put me right to sleep... {snip} > > OK, I claim three solutions: > Is there a prize if I win? You build it, you get to keep it. :) > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 20:18:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:18:48 -0400 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <4CCA20F8.1060808@neurotica.com> On 10/28/10 7:11 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > My guess is that it doesn't have to be exactly the right size. > I'm sure that when reading the data, it uses a servo-loop. > When writing, it would care but a little fast of slow shouldn't > make a big difference. I'd assume it uses a PLL to recover the clock from the data stream. If that's the case, the speed can drift quite a bit and it should still get a good read. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 28 20:59:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:59:48 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Clipper Stations In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:28:46 -0400. <0266A8A4-22CC-4847-B8C1-2C2C6C01419A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: This is the book I have: CLIPPER C300 32-Bit Compute Engine Advance Information Data Sheet Sept 1988 DCLP11800-5K -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 22:02:52 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:02:52 -0500 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Rivista Byte dal Gennaio 1980 al Dicembre 1984 > http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/MAGAZINE/BYTE/index.html Anyone know if this site is mirrored anywhere? Looks like a ton of great magazine scans (though I have been unable to pull down a single one successfully yet.) Any torrents, maybe? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 28 22:59:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <0091E495-CA33-4340-A3F3-E4F6EE3F9AC7@heeltoe.com> from Brad Parker at "Oct 28, 10 01:12:05 pm" Message-ID: <201010290359.o9T3x0YG013368@floodgap.com> > As I recall, in 1983, running unix on a VAX was the "hot setup" for software > developers. Followed soon by running unix on a Sun... The first reference I remember to a VAX as a kid was reading an issue of ENTER magazine (I doubt anyone here remembers it) about the development of Williams' Sinistar and this mysterious huge computer they did crossassembly on (for the 6809). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't kill me because I've got magic aaargh. -- Terry Pratchett -------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 23:05:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:05:56 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Clipper (was: Unknown Wangs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ...and they never respond to inquiries. ?I've emailed them several > times and they never bothered to reply. ?If you could kick some tires > with a personal contact, that would be appreciated. Yes, they are good at hiding under a rock. I will prod. Again. -- Will From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 28 13:29:09 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:29:09 +0100 Subject: IBM 2.88MB floppy drive (64F0204 / 72X6101 / Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA) pinout Message-ID: <1288290549.1460.113.camel@cheetah> Hi guys, I'm pretty sure someone posted this on-list in the past (possibly Chuck?), but I can't find it in my local archive or on the classiccmp.org list archive... I've got a Mitsubishi MF356C-799MA disc drive, part number 72X6101. This is apparently a 2.88MB disc drive from an IBM PS/2, and was (near as I can tell) also sold as an FRU under part number 64F0204. Here's where the confusion starts: it uses a single 34-pin connector for both power and data. I found this site: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/floppy/Floppy_Pinouts.html#34-pin_MS And another page with similar information: http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/floppy/floppy.html). These give the 34-pin interface pinouts, including the details for the Electronic Eject drive (the 92F0132, aka Sony MP-F40W-07 / MFD-40W-05) and a stern warning to leave pin 6 (+12V) open... Catch is there's nothing about Data Rate Select on pin 2 (which appears to be 0V for 720K and 1.44MB, or high/floating for 2.88MB), or the Media Type ID and Drive Type ID pins. Basically what I want to do is put this drive in a PC, format a couple of 2.88MB discs, then wire it up to the DiscFerret and make sure the acquisition engine and decoder can handle the higher data rate. In theory it should work, but I'd like to see it working :) Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Thu Oct 28 16:24:50 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:24:50 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> On 2010-10-28 23:02, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Brad Parker > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:12 AM > > On Oct 27, 2010, at 11:31 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>>> >>> You could insert a small paragraph here about the role of unix and how >>>> >>> unix and the pdp-11 and vax interacted. >>> >> Are you saying that the PDP-11 and VAX were the first machines where >>> >> the hardware and software were both considered and designed together? >>> >> Once again, I think a lot of people would not agree with that. >> > No, I didn't say that at all. I was just saying that the it would be >> > interesting to explore how the pdp-11 and VAX architectures influenced >> > the design of unix, and how unix, in turn, influenced software >> > development as a whole. I thin the two are interrelated. > From what Thompson and Ritchie have written about the origins of Unix, > the PDP-11's architecture had very little to do with how it was created. > The original PDP-7 Unix (specific I/O ports addressed in I/O instructions, > 18-bit words, word addressing) was taken up and ported to the PDP-11 with > few or no user-visible changes. Indeed. Well, I don't know about few or no user-visible changes, but there is no denying that Unix started on a PDP-7, and not a PDP-11. > Because the VAX offered a virtual memory capability (hi, Johnny!:-), it > did change the way Unix developed, but so did other ports (Interdata, for > example, and even the IBM Series/1). Hi. :-) I hope you do remember that early versions of Unix (even on the VAX) did not do demand paging. Are you saying that they didn't have virtual memory either, then? :-) BSD3 anyone? As for what PDP-11 might have innovated, we have covered the memory mapped I/O at some length now, and it appear that the PDP-11 might atleast have a half claim to fame there. But, as some pointed out, the x86 do not use memory mapped I/O (and shared memory with a graphics subsystem is not the same thing). Most RISC machines did/do use memory mapped I/O anyway, but I digress... I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as possible firsts on the PDP-11. Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? I don't know of any machines before the PDP-11 that had these. Admittedly, the only one of these attributes the x86 inherited (from wherever) is condition codes, but I think it might be interesting to hear the collective wisdom on some more details than just memory mapped I/O... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Thu Oct 28 16:46:20 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:46:20 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9EF2C.4050309@softjar.se> On 2010-10-28 23:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 28, at 10:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > On 28 Oct 2010 at 13:20, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> I was initially thinking about just the hardware architecture when the >>> >> machines were being designed, not the software aspect, nor what the >>> >> machines did (or influenced) after they were released. The >>> >> aforementioned memory mapped I/O, for example. >> > >> > Not to be too much of a wet blanket, but how many of those DEC-unique >> > innovations (even if you manage to assert that they originated with >> > DEC) persist in today's hardware? Do modern PCs use memory-mapped >> > I/O? The 68K, but for some Freescale relics, is history. >> > >> > Major innovations, such as virtual memory and orthogonal instruction >> > sets and hardware-implemented stacks preceded the PDP-11. > How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but > then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? I think that would be a very dubious, and hard to prove claim. :-) > The VAX was riding on the coattails of the market success of the -11 > and provided existing PDP-11 installations with increasing demands with > a way forward, and it grew from there. That's a bit of a tautology, but > it is to say it did exactly what it was designed and marketed for. Yes. The VAX did not really innovate anything. It was more of a rather successful merge of many things, and following in the footsteps on the PDP-11, and building further on that foundation. > On the topic of memory, I would agree with Johnny about "virtual > addresses", but differ on "virtual memory": virtual memory to me has > always meant demand-paging where the RAM address-space seen by the user > can be larger than the physical RAM, distinct from the simple mapping > of addresses, but the use of the term is a matter of definition. Thank you. But what, pray tell, would you say a virtual address pointed to, then? Magic smoke? :-) Why are people so hung up on physical memory size vs. virtual memory size when they need to define what virtual memory is? I just don't get it. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Thu Oct 28 17:11:15 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:11:15 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> On 2010-10-28 23:02, Rich Alderson wrote: > Because the VAX offered a virtual memory capability (hi, Johnny!:-), it > did change the way Unix developed, but so did other ports (Interdata, for > example, and even the IBM Series/1). One more thing here. This is not directly to you, Rich, but this line is as good an introduction for me throwing another wrench in the machinery as any... And I do love wrenches. It has been stipulated that the PDP-11 don't have virtual memory, but the VAX do, and various arguments for this view. As far as I can tell (and people, please correct me if I've gotten this wrong) the reason for this view boils down to: 1) The physical address space is larger than the virtual on a PDP-11. 2) The PDP-11 don't load just parts of the memory and handle page faults as a way to do demand paging. Now, as for #2, I think I have established that some models of the PDP-11 could in theory do this, if you just wrote the software for it. The fact that noone have does not take away the capability. If anyone disagree with this, I'll be happy to explain exactly how the code should look like on the PDP-11 to do demand paging. As for #1, I now drag out DEC STD 032 as exhibit A. It's a wonderful document, more commonly known as the VAX Architecture Reference Manual. More specifically, the version called EL-000 32-00. Anyone can read it, it's on bitsavers. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/archSpec/EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.pdf Now, I direct you all to page 4-7 of that document, which talks about physical addresses on a VAX. Notice how a physical address on a VAX can be 34 bits, while the virtual address is only 32 bits. Next question: Does the VAX not have virtual memory any more now that I've pointed this out? Or do you need to redefine virtual memory in yet a new and strange way to exclude the PDP-11... :-D Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From philpem at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 28 18:17:34 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:17:34 +0100 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 10 05:07:03 pm, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1288307854.30245.12.camel@cheetah> On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 14:14 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if > no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... If you want something to put you to sleep, try ISO 13818 (the MPEG Transport Stream spec) will do a damn good job. One of my work colleagues called it "the finest cure for insomnia known to man, even better than Nytol." :) -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 02:26:43 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:26:43 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9EF2C.4050309@softjar.se> References: <4CC9EF2C.4050309@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 28, at 2:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2010-10-28 23:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but >> then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? > > I think that would be a very dubious, and hard to prove claim. :-) It may be more work than proving an individual claim of innovation, but it is still a plausible notion to research historically. >> ... >> On the topic of memory, I would agree with Johnny about "virtual >> addresses", but differ on "virtual memory": virtual memory to me has >> always meant demand-paging where the RAM address-space seen by the >> user >> can be larger than the physical RAM, distinct from the simple mapping >> of addresses, but the use of the term is a matter of definition. > > Thank you. > But what, pray tell, would you say a virtual address pointed to, then? > Magic smoke? :-) Physical memory via the MMU; this is not a contradiction. > Why are people so hung up on physical memory size vs. virtual memory > size when they need to define what virtual memory is? > I just don't get it. :-) Because there is a fundamental difference between having your valid address space limited to available physical RAM, even if you can map a "virtual" address to different places in that RAM, and having a transparently addressable (large) address space unlimited by a lesser quantity of physical RAM. In the latter it *appears* (hence virtual) that you have more RAM than you actually do. This has always (IME) been the common meaning of "virtual memory". - I'm too many years away from programming a PDP-11, but while it may as you suggest have been possible to do demand-paging in principle, how complex might it have been in practice? Trapping an address fault might be easy enough, but what about instruction restart/re-execution while accounting for all possible side effects that may or may not have occurred between the start of the instruction and the address fault. IIRC, the 68000 series ran into this problem when people started trying to do (demand paging) VM with it. When an address fault occurred, not all of the instruction state was saved and restarting the instruction became a problem. It was fixed in the next version but I forget where in the series (68010->20, 20->30, etc). From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 06:56:38 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:56:38 -0500 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Jason T wrote: > Anyone know if this site is mirrored anywhere? ?Looks like a ton of > great magazine scans (though I have been unable to pull down a single > one successfully yet.) ?Any torrents, maybe? When we find this stuff, we need to put it in our own repository, or at least have several of us maintain copies at home. I fear that over time, computers (and people) will crash. brian From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 08:29:20 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:29:20 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> References: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > But, as some pointed out, the x86 do not use > memory mapped I/O (and shared memory with a graphics subsystem is not the > same thing). Most RISC machines did/do use memory mapped I/O anyway, but I > digress... > Sure modern x86 systems still have port I/O instructions and some devices that are accessed via port I/O instructions, but a lot of modern PCI/PCIe attached devices are accessed only via memory mapped I/O registers. For example the original Intel UHCI USB host controller design was accessed via port I/O instructions but all subsequent USB host controllers designs (OHCI, EHCI, XHCI) are access only via memory mapped I/O registers. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 08:51:36 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 08:51:36 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <20101028205654.GE28198@brevard.conman.org> References: <4CC95597.9247.C408E0@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> <20101028205654.GE28198@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4CCAD168.9080004@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > Oh, and 3) nobody knows quite who said "640k should be enough for > everybody." It could have been IBM; it could have been Microsoft. I seem to remember there being some paraphrasing of this on some IBM marketing material that TNMoC has on laserdisc - but it'd be easy enough to believe that they meant "640K is enough for everybody in the context of today's industry" rather than "640K is all that anyone will need in a computer, ever". cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 29 08:40:39 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <201010290359.o9T3x0YG013368@floodgap.com> References: <201010290359.o9T3x0YG013368@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> As I recall, in 1983, running unix on a VAX was the "hot setup" for software >> developers. Followed soon by running unix on a Sun... > > The first reference I remember to a VAX as a kid was reading an issue of > ENTER magazine (I doubt anyone here remembers it) about the development of > Williams' Sinistar and this mysterious huge computer they did crossassembly > on (for the 6809). This? http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/magazines/enter/enter.htm Enjoy. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 29 10:07:22 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 08:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENTER magazine was Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 29, 10 06:40:39 am" Message-ID: <201010291507.o9TF7MGA009842@floodgap.com> > > The first reference I remember to a VAX as a kid was reading an issue of > > ENTER magazine (I doubt anyone here remembers it) about the development of > > Williams' Sinistar and this mysterious huge computer they did crossassembly > > on (for the 6809). > > This? http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/magazines/enter/enter.htm The very same. But I have the real hard copies. :) I don't remember which one it was, though. I'll have to dig them out. ENTER was a surprisingly high-level magazine for CTW and not typical of its usual output, which is probably why it was a commercial failure. It got merged into 3-2-1 CONTACT! for awhile back when that magazine didn't suck either (now it's another light interchangeable kids' semi-science rag) until it eventually faded. They converted my subscription into 3-2-1 until my folks let it lapse, since I was uninterested at that point and most of its editorial integrity had long since evapourated. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Submission is learning to duck so God can hit your husband. -- Beth Moore -- From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Oct 29 10:34:44 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Postscript printer and trinitron monitor available for free Message-ID: <63596.67.93.24.194.1288366484.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> I know this is rather last minute... but if anyone has any interest e-mail me before 5:30PM, otherwise the following go into the recycling bin. NEC Silentwriter 95 - postscript - parallel interface - worked when last used around 2002 - toner included (unknown amount remaining) Sony? (Dell branded) 17" trinitron CRT monitor - working, nice picture - plastic yas yellowed some (uniformly) Sorry for the late notice, figured there wouldn't be much interest but I'd check. Items are for pickup in either Sharon, MA or Cambridge, MA. If there are parts you want from either, let me know, it could be arranged. -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 10:39:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 08:39:56 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <1288307854.30245.12.camel@cheetah> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com>, <1288307854.30245.12.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:17, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 14:14 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if > > no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... > > If you want something to put you to sleep, try ISO 13818 (the MPEG > Transport Stream spec) will do a damn good job. One of my work > colleagues called it "the finest cure for insomnia known to man, even > better than Nytol." :) You should try working your way through ANSI programming language specifications. I've got my solution, that uses at most 16-pin packages and 6 of them, but (a) I also need a few pullup resistors, and (b) I employ a cheat. After making Karnaugh maps of the entire 0-F decoder and simplifying terms, I realized that I was making the job too difficult than the rules demanded. A common 74LS247 decoder provides the "6" with the correct "tail"; the problem boils down to creating the letters A-F (which, interestingly, is much less complex than making 0- 9) and wire-ANDing the outputs with that of the 247. Not what Tony had in mind, I suspect. I wonder what the smallest combinatorial implemenation is using at most 4-input NAND and NOR gates and inverters. That's for another time when I feel bored... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 11:31:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:31:31 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> References: , <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:11, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Next question: Does the VAX not have virtual memory any more now that > I've pointed this out? Or do you need to redefine virtual memory in > yet a new and strange way to exclude the PDP-11... :-D I think that using memory address spaces to qualify the "virtualness" of memory is following the wrong animal. I would define "virtual memory" as the ability to fool a program into thinking that it has more physical memory than is actually present. So, can a PDP-11 with 16K of memory appear to a program as if there were 32K present? All of this reminds me of the big rollout of the S/370 DAT systems with virtual memory support and the marketing hype about not needing to spend money on expensive memory. When some customers complained that the performance under load of the 67 wasn't very good, IBM responded that they needed to buy more memory... --Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Oct 29 11:55:06 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 17:55:06 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Johnny Billquist > > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as > possible firsts on the PDP-11. > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? The ICT 1301 had up to 100 'indicators' specified by two BCD digits in the instruction. All could be tested with an unconditional jump and some could be set and unset by program too. Number zero was always on to give an unconditional jump. There were ones for equal, greater and less as well as overflow, parity error, front panel switch states, as well as various peripheral statuses. Does that count? > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? Not quite the same thing but IIRC the Elliott 920A used core location zero as its program counter. To be more accurate it used 0 by default when not using interrupts. When using interrupts it used 0 for level 1, 2 for level 2, 4 for level 3 and 6 for base level code. It also used those addresses plus one for its modifier (B) register. This speeded up interrupt processing as no need to save those registers. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 29 12:04:15 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:04:15 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9EF2C.4050309@softjar.se> References: <4CC9EF2C.4050309@softjar.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:46 PM > Why are people so hung up on physical memory size vs. virtual memory > size when they need to define what virtual memory is? > I just don't get it. :-) Perhaps because that's the way the term of art "virtual memory" (whether as segments or as pages) has been defined since it was first conceived? Virtual addressing is necessary for virtual memory. The converse is not true. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 12:11:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CCA9DBD.31599.62953E@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 17:55, Roger Holmes wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as > > possible firsts on the PDP-11. Can anyone come up with an earlier > > machine that used condition codes? > > The ICT 1301 had up to 100 'indicators' specified by two BCD digits in > the instruction. All could be tested with an unconditional jump and > some could be set and unset by program too. Number zero was always on > to give an unconditional jump. There were ones for equal, greater and > less as well as overflow, parity error, front panel switch states, as > well as various peripheral statuses. Does that count? By "condition codes", do you mean zero, plus, greater, sense switch 1, last card, parity error, etc.? Those are ancient. I never liked condition codes. When optimizing code and moving instructions they're a pain in the butt. They do make some sense on memory-to-memory architectures, of course, but on register-based ones, they can make life needlessly difficult. Consider, for example, which x80 or x86 instructions modify what flags and which don't. Sure, carry and zero are easy, but try remembering how and by which instruction the parity or auxiliary carry flags are modified... --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 12:39:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:39:34 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:11, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Next question: Does the VAX not have virtual memory any more now that >> I've pointed this out? Or do you need to redefine virtual memory in >> yet a new and strange way to exclude the PDP-11... :-D > > I think that using memory address spaces to qualify the "virtualness" > of memory is following the wrong animal. > > I would define "virtual memory" as the ability to fool a program into > thinking that it has more physical memory than is actually present. I don't think that's an essential component of the term as I learned it 20+ years ago. My understanding is that in a machine that supports virtual memory, you have virtual address space(s) and physical address space. Physical addresses are something you can see with a logic analyzer and point to a physical chip and say "my data is right *there*". If you have two processes running on the same CPU, they both agree where 0x0000 (or 0x00000000) is and it's the same place. If one process writes a value there, both processes would read that value back. In virtual space, each process *thinks* they are writing to 0x0000, and they can read back the value they wrote, but not each other's values. In fact, unless they peek under the covers, they have no idea where in physical memory their own virtual 0x0000 is. In practice, quite often virtual memory _is_ used to fool programs about how much physical memory there is, but the PDP-11 is a specific counter-example to "more than is actually present". Taking the VAX first (since we all know "all the world's a VAX" ;-), you might have 8MB of physical memory installed in an 11/750 in a physical memory map of 16MB (24 address bits). So in this model, your virtual space is 32 bits (the size of your address registers), while your physical space is 24 bits. From the process side, every process "sees" 4GB (32 bits) of space with lots of holes in it (mostly holes). If your program keeps requesting more and more memory from the OS, at first, you may be given chunks of real memory mapped into your virtual space; eventually that will be exhausted and your OS will most likely start paging and reserve storage for you until that runs out (so always check the return of malloc() even if you think you can't possibly run out of virtual memory). On the PDP-11, your process's _virtual_ space is 64KB - 16 bits, the size of your registers, while some PDP-11s can have up to 256KB of physical memory (18 bits), and many can have up to 4MB (22 bits) of physical memory. In this case, you still have virtual space different from physical space (and the same scenario where two different processes agree on where 0x0000 is in physical space but maintain their own 0x0000 in their respective virtual spaces). > So, can a PDP-11 with 16K of memory appear to a program as if there > were 32K present? That all depends. Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 (but not effectively on the 68000) - some architectures have memory management hardware that can "tell" if a reference is about to hit a patch of virtual addresses that don't have physical memory mapped to them and invoke some OS-specific routine to either allocate or pull from storage what needs to be there and resume the instigating instruction as if nothing happened (which is part of what distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). On the PDP-11, we used overlays to load, say, 32K of code into 16K of physical memory, pulling in routines when they were needed, but it was done at the application level, not the instruction level. It is not the same thing as demand-paged virtual memory (which _is_ used to make it seem that there is more memory than physically installed). -ethan From trag at io.com Fri Oct 29 12:46:33 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:46:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tangential to Topic: Old Chip Programmers Work w/ || Port in Docking Station? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Needham EMP-30 chip programmer. I've been keeping an old Pentium (mumble) computer around to drive it (vaguely on-topic since it's definitely more than 10 years old). It has a parallel port interface. I would like to replace the ancient behemoth computer with a notebook to save space. I would also like to buy a modernish laptop to run things like FPGA and Microcontroller development/interface systems. I'd like them to be the same laptop, so right there I'm looking at USB and parallel port on the same notebook. Looking around, that does not appear to be available in new products. Ordinarily, I don't shy away from used equipment (who does, on this list?), but for notebooks, with their breakage issues and such, I would prefer to buy new. Further shopping revealed that Dell sells a Legacy Port Expander which works with some of their current notebooks and provides serial and parallel ports. And I think I've read somewhere while searching that the Needham software will work with Windows XP (could be mistaken, need to search again). Do any of you know if chip programmers (the EMP-30 specifically) work okay with the parallel ports in port expanders? How about the Cardbus (or whatever is replacing it) parallel port cards? Alternatively, anyone go through this exercise already and pick out what seemed like the ideal notebook model with USB and parallel ports. I might consider a used model if someone has a strong recommendation. Thank you for any discussion, Jeff Walther From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 12:51:02 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:02 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com>, <1288307854.30245.12.camel@cheetah> <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <436daecca1e30369070da42a00792ddf@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 29, at 8:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:17, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 14:14 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if >>> no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... >> >> If you want something to put you to sleep, try ISO 13818 (the MPEG >> Transport Stream spec) will do a damn good job. One of my work >> colleagues called it "the finest cure for insomnia known to man, even >> better than Nytol." :) > > You should try working your way through ANSI programming language > specifications. > > I've got my solution, that uses at most 16-pin packages and 6 of > them, but (a) I also need a few pullup resistors, and (b) I employ a > cheat. After making Karnaugh maps of the entire 0-F decoder and > simplifying terms, I realized that I was making the job too difficult > than the rules demanded. A common 74LS247 decoder provides the "6" > with the correct "tail"; the problem boils down to creating the > letters A-F (which, interestingly, is much less complex than making 0- > 9) and wire-ANDing the outputs with that of the 247. I did the same thing, a '247, along with a '138 1-of-8 decoder to decode the high values, feeding a bunch of NAND gates. Use the blanking input on the 247 to disable it when A-F is being displayed. Did you avoid the use of the 1-of-8 decoder? I expect Tony's solution was 7 16-to-1 muxes, essentially a hardwired ROM. There would be another solution with a 1-of-16 decoder feeding 7 NAND gates, doable in 8 packages (1 24-pin). > Not what Tony had in mind, I suspect. > > I wonder what the smallest combinatorial implemenation is using at > most 4-input NAND and NOR gates and inverters. That's for another > time when I feel bored... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 13:26:45 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:26:45 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 29, at 10:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > That all depends. Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged > virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 > (but not effectively on the 68000) - some architectures have memory > management hardware that can "tell" if a reference is about to hit a > patch of virtual addresses that don't have physical memory mapped to > them and invoke some OS-specific routine to either allocate or pull > from storage what needs to be there and resume the instigating > instruction as if nothing happened (which is part of what > distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). There have been a couple of indications it was the '10 that added the instruction restart, but was the implementation in the '10 bug-free? I didn't deal with the problem directly, heard about it from some friends who were programming around it, and it would have been 1989, so long after the 00->10 transition. My recollection about the issue was there was a bug under certain conditions that was fixed in the next version, as distinct from a 'new feature', but perhaps it was just the way the problem was described to me or the way I understood what was being said. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 13:41:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:41:14 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 29, at 10:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> That all depends. ?Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged >> virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 >> (but not effectively on the 68000)... (which is part of what >> distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). > > There have been a couple of indications it was the '10 that added the > instruction restart, but was the implementation in the '10 bug-free? I know it works well enough in early Sun workstations and the AT&T Unix PC (3B1/7300), but I have no knowledge of any required workarounds due to possible bugs. > I didn't deal with the problem directly, heard about it from some friends > who were programming around it, and it would have been 1989, so long after > the 00->10 transition. My recollection about the issue was there was a bug > under certain conditions that was fixed in the next version, as distinct > from a 'new feature', but perhaps it was just the way the problem was > described to me or the way I understood what was being said. I have no memory of issues with instruction restart on the '10, but I didn't use that feature of the chip when I was doing embedded product development 20+ years ago (we only used it for the "loop mode" 1-instruction cache feature that allowed so-called "DBcc loops" to run ~50% faster due to not needing fetch cycles while in the loop). Could what you remember be something to do with "instruction restart" vs "instruction continuation"? (a distinction I was not making, but now that I've read this - http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/doc/dpbm68k1.htm - perhaps that's a better way to describe it). -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 14:02:28 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: Tangential to Topic: Old Chip Programmers Work w/ || Port in Docking Station? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: > > Do any of you know if chip programmers (the EMP-30 specifically) work okay > with the parallel ports in port expanders? ? How about the Cardbus (or > whatever is replacing it) ?parallel port cards? > My *guess* is that you probably would not have much luck with a parallel port which is behind any sort of USB interface. You might have to read some fine print to determine whether the ports on a notebook port expander / docking station are behind a USB interface or a more native PCI bus. If you try an ExpressCard (replacement for CardBus) parallel port card you also need to make sure it is a native PCIe parallel port and not a USB-parallel port. The ExpressCard form factor has both PCIe and USB interfaces and it is not always clear which interface an ExpressCard device uses. I have a BP Micro programmer with an parallel port interface. I am curious if it would work attached to a PCIe parallel port chip such as the Oxford/PLX OXPCIe840 http://www.plxtech.com/products/uart/oxpcie840 That chip could be used on either PCIe add-in cards or ExpressCard cards. If I can find a cheap card using that chip I should give it a try. -Glen From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Oct 29 14:03:44 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:03:44 +0100 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> Message-ID: <42E89F541BF34CD19C2BC555E7F04682@ANTONIOPC> Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: > Now, I direct you all to page 4-7 of that document, which talks about > physical addresses on a VAX. > Notice how a physical address on a VAX can be 34 bits, while the virtual > address is only 32 bits. VAX virtual addresses have always been 32-bits although system space S1 (the top 1GiB) was never defined. The XVA project allowed it to be used (on some hardware platforms). The (related) XPA project allowed the physical address space to grow beyond 1GiB but only to 4GiB (32-bits). DEC STD-032 does allow for a 34-bit PA implementation but I don't know of one. The VAX 6000/7000/10000 all only implemented 32-bit PA mode (afaik). I don't know (off hand) whether the chipset could do more. So (barring any inormation to the contrary) I think it's only a theoretical possibility :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 14:22:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:22:37 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <436daecca1e30369070da42a00792ddf@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com>, <436daecca1e30369070da42a00792ddf@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CCABC8D.3451.DBF294@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 10:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I did the same thing, a '247, along with a '138 1-of-8 decoder to > decode the high values, feeding a bunch of NAND gates. Use the > blanking input on the 247 to disable it when A-F is being displayed. > Did you avoid the use of the 1-of-8 decoder? No I used one, though I considered not doing so, given the simplicity of forming alpha letters (in comparison to forming numbers). --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 14:28:35 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:28:35 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: <4CC9F503.1090602@softjar.se> <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3379cc8db909c62cdb10ad325e86ebe3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 29, at 11:41 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> On 2010 Oct 29, at 10:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> That all depends. ?Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged >>> virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 >>> (but not effectively on the 68000)... (which is part of what >>> distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). >> >> There have been a couple of indications it was the '10 that added the >> instruction restart, but was the implementation in the '10 bug-free? > > I know it works well enough in early Sun workstations and the AT&T > Unix PC (3B1/7300), but I have no knowledge of any required > workarounds due to possible bugs. > >> I didn't deal with the problem directly, heard about it from some >> friends >> who were programming around it, and it would have been 1989, so long >> after >> the 00->10 transition. My recollection about the issue was there was >> a bug >> under certain conditions that was fixed in the next version, as >> distinct >> from a 'new feature', but perhaps it was just the way the problem was >> described to me or the way I understood what was being said. > > I have no memory of issues with instruction restart on the '10, but I > didn't use that feature of the chip when I was doing embedded product > development 20+ years ago (we only used it for the "loop mode" > 1-instruction cache feature that allowed so-called "DBcc loops" to run > ~50% faster due to not needing fetch cycles while in the loop). > > Could what you remember be something to do with "instruction restart" > vs "instruction continuation"? (a distinction I was not making, but > now that I've read this - > http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/doc/dpbm68k1.htm - perhaps that's a > better way to describe it). Yes, continuation is a better word to describe it. As described in that article, upon address fault, the processor saves the internal processor state on the supervisor stack. The problem as it was described to me, was that some bits of the internal state missed getting saved, so there could be problems with continuation. I don't know how the existing VM designs such as the SUN 2 handled it, taking note of certain instructions and fixing things up perhaps. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 14:31:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:31:18 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: , <4CCA9473.25106.3E4DC4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCABE96.15839.E3E55E@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 13:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That all depends. Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged > virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 > (but not effectively on the 68000) - some architectures have memory > management hardware that can "tell" if a reference is about to hit a > patch of virtual addresses that don't have physical memory mapped to > them and invoke some OS-specific routine to either allocate or pull > from storage what needs to be there and resume the instigating > instruction as if nothing happened (which is part of what > distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). I suppose that it's a matter of who you're asking. There were a number of interpretive compilers (e.g. JRT Pascal) on the x80 that claimed to implement virtual memory. And COBOL had, starting very early, to segment code by grouping paragraphs into sections that could be read in as needed. Not data, however. On the 8-bit x80 systems, there were a couple of multi-user implemenatons that provided for a page-mapping RAM with the ability to interrupt on "page not present", in effect, giving each user his own address space and the ability to page to disk. I don't know if that counts or not--one could also view it as glorified bankswitching. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 29 15:04:42 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:04:42 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/10 10:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'd appreciate it if anyone interested in buying a DiscFerret could > email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk Would this version have connectors for ST-506 drives as well? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 29 15:11:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:11:41 -0600 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:34:15 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. I > have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). I'll > upload some pics this week. I'm away from my camera, so pics will have to wait until this evening or the weekend. However, I opened the case and was very surprised with what I found inside the terminal. Its basically an empty box! The most recent date code we could find was late 1978 and that was on some logic chips on the keyboard assembly. As near as I can tell, the keyboard is the smartest thing in the enclosure :-). There is a long ribbon cable coming from the keyboard and the video section is wired to what looks like an RS-232 connector on the rear (obviously it is not RS-232, but it is one of those DB-25 style connectors). My guess is that the main Nuclear Data box generates video and receives either parallel or serial keycodes from the keyboard. So, in order to get this terminal working I'm obviously going to need the rest of the system... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 16:24:06 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:24:06 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Pralle wrote: > Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS disks > and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is the > entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: Not to assume that anyone is running a disk-duping service for the Model II, but I just acquired one recently also (just the main box, not the whole table :) and I am without media of any sort. I've got a lot of blank 8" disks, though, and would be happy to send them ahead or trade them for something to boot the big grey beast. -- jht From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 15:55:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:55:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC979A0.22930.152134D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 28, 10 01:24:48 pm Message-ID: > > Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you > > can't do memory-mapped I/O. I beleive Steve Ciarcia said in one of the Circuit Cellar articles in Byte many year ago that any processor that could access memory could have memory-mapped I/O. I would add that in the case of a system (rather than a bare processor), it helps if there's some spare space in the memroy map :-). > > And there were other PC displays, that didn't use memory-mapped video if by 'PC' here you mean something descended from the IBM5150 then I am curious. All the IBM dipslay adapdaters that I can think of were memory mapped. Yes, even the PGC had a memory-mapped CGA emulation. I do rememebr reading about TMS34010 development boards for the PC. Is that the sort of thing you were thinking of? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 15:57:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 28, 10 02:36:59 pm Message-ID: > You asked if it was used on modern PCs. The answer is yes. Every PC > these days supports standard VGA/monochrome display adapter Is ther a monochrome display adapter that works in modern-ish PCs (I assumne PCI bus)? I've not seen one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 16:10:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:10:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 28, 10 02:14:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Oct 2010 at 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > If you ingnroe 'progammable' devices (PROMs, PALs, FPGAs, etc), what's > > the simplest solution for getting 0-9,A-F from 4 bits of binary using > > only 74xxx devices (and preferably common ones). I can trivially do it > > in 7 such chips, but alas they're all 24 pin devices. Anything > > simpler? > > Interesting challenge, Tony. I'll work on it before bed tonight if > no one else does. It should put me right to sleep... I see... For those who are wondeirng, the 'trivial' solution I mentioned uses 7 off 74150 16-input multiplexers, one for each segment. You tie the inputs high low to determine if that segment is on or off for a given set fo 4 input bits. After posing that, I thought of other solutions that make no assumptions about the segment patterns -- they always work. For example 7 off 74151 8 input muxes and a single inverter (1/6 of a 7404) That has the advantage of automatically providing actrive high and active low outputs. Or use a 74154 to decode the input bits and then logically OR the active low outputs together with 7430 8-input NANDs. The thing is that a given segment is either on in 8 or fewer patterns or it's off in 8 or fewer patterns (it must be one or the other since there are only 16 patterns). So you can get away with 8 input NAND gates, maybe you need to invert the outputs (7404s again) [1]. So that's 9 packages (74154, 24 pin, 7 off 7430, 14 pin and a 7404, also 14 pin. If you need to invert all 7 putputs, and thus need more than the contents of a 7404, then I would simply redefine the problem to use the other type of display :-). Actually, in all cases you probably want some kind of driver on the outputs, so you can pck a normal or inverting onme. I've not writtne down the turth table so I don't know if you can use smaller NAND gates for some of the outputs, and thus get away with fewer packages. Anyother thought I had is to use a 7447 for the lower 8 or 10 patterns (as it's designed to do!) and add logic for the higher ones. I don't know if that saves chips. [1] I beleive you need this sort of trick to build such a decoder in a stnadard PAL or GAL device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 16:38:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:38:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <436daecca1e30369070da42a00792ddf@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 29, 10 10:51:02 am Message-ID: > I did the same thing, a '247, along with a '138 1-of-8 decoder to > decode the high values, feeding a bunch of NAND gates. Use the blanking > input on the 247 to disable it when A-F is being displayed. Did you > avoid the use of the 1-of-8 decoder? > > I expect Tony's solution was 7 16-to-1 muxes, essentially a hardwired > ROM. Indeed it was... That's always a brute-force solution. Anoyther idea. A '247 to get the 0-9 patterns. 3 off '253 dual 4-input mexes. These decode the low 3 bits (and may need an extra inverter) to get the segment aptters of the a,b,c,d,f segmetns of the A-F patterns (e and g are always on in those states. And a little bit of logic to disable the '247, enable the muxes and turn on e,g for the appropriat input states. Probably only a couple more chips. > > There would be another solution with a 1-of-16 decoder feeding 7 NAND > gates, doable in 8 packages (1 24-pin). Yep. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 16:16:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:16:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Oct 28, 10 11:24:50 pm Message-ID: > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as > possible firsts on the PDP-11. > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). There are 16 registers, some instructions can only use the first 8, others can use all 16. Addressing modes (simpler than the PDP11, I admit) are pretty much orthogonal. I am not sure wheterh the PDP11 or P800 was first,m they both appeared in 1970 I beleive. What do you mean by condition codes here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 16:27:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:27:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 10 08:39:56 am Message-ID: > I've got my solution, that uses at most 16-pin packages and 6 of > them, but (a) I also need a few pullup resistors, and (b) I employ a > cheat. After making Karnaugh maps of the entire 0-F decoder and > simplifying terms, I realized that I was making the job too difficult > than the rules demanded. A common 74LS247 decoder provides the "6" > with the correct "tail"; the problem boils down to creating the > letters A-F (which, interestingly, is much less complex than making 0- > 9) and wire-ANDing the outputs with that of the 247. > > Not what Tony had in mind, I suspect. I don't see why not :-). As I mentioned in my earlier reply tonight, I wasn't sure if using the normal 7-segemtn decoder helped or not (and whether it's better to use it for 0-7 or 0-9). Thinking about it, aren't the 'e' and 'g' segments always on for A-F? That simplifies things... > > I wonder what the smallest combinatorial implemenation is using at > most 4-input NAND and NOR gates and inverters. That's for another > time when I feel bored... Indeed... -tony From bear at typewritten.org Fri Oct 29 16:50:13 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:50:13 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Nathan Pralle wrote: > I'm looking for a copy of the Technical Ref manual for it; despite > finding scans of the covers and so forth online, I'm unable to > actually locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart > 8" Service Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure > those are up to speed as well. I have these. They're on my list for scanning, but I can't promise any kind of schedule for it to happen right now. If you like, contact me off list and I'd be happy to play reference desk librarian for you in the meanwhile. ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 17:28:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:28:07 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 28, 10 02:14:48 pm, Message-ID: <4CCAE807.5429.186E67E@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:10, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyother thought I had is to use a 7447 for the lower 8 or 10 > patterns (as it's designed to do!) and add logic for the higher ones. > I don't know if that saves chips. The 7447 has a problem in that the "6" doesn't have the top crossbar, so that it's indistinguishable from a "b". The '247 does include the top segment when displaying '6', which is why I mentioned the 247 and not 47. This brings to mind an ancient "fix" for the 47 "6" display--a pulldown diode connected between segment "e" and segment "a"--in the display of 0-9 there is no time when segment "e" is active that segment "a" isn't also active. The converse, however isn't true--and this "fix" will mess up your display of "b" if you use the method described previously to display 0-F. But if you allow diodes, then there's no reason not to use a 4-to-16 demux and a mess of diodes to do the decoding for 0-F, is there? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 17:37:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:37:23 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CCA885C.1045.F13AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 10 08:39:56 am, Message-ID: <4CCAEA33.5550.18F6210@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:27, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why not :-). As I mentioned in my earlier reply tonight, I > wasn't sure if using the normal 7-segemtn decoder helped or not (and > whether it's better to use it for 0-7 or 0-9). Thinking about it, > aren't the 'e' and 'g' segments always on for A-F? That simplifies > things... Actually, looking at the sequence A-F in the negative sense, many simplifications come to mind, depending on how the letters are displayed. I chose "AbCdEF", but there's no reason that "abcdeF" couldn't be chosen. Using "AbCdEF", "d" is the only letter where segment "f" isn't illuminated. "C" is the only letter that doesn't include "g", unless you make the "c" lowercase, in which case, it's always on (as you observed). "b" and "d" are the only letters that omit the top segment...and so on. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 18:06:49 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:06:49 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83a48da1dc70d2bfb06a7c3e0172907d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 29, at 2:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > For those who are wondeirng, the 'trivial' solution I mentioned uses 7 > off 74150 16-input multiplexers, one for each segment. You tie the > inputs > high low to determine if that segment is on or off for a given set fo 4 > input bits. > > After posing that, I thought of other solutions that make no > assumptions > about the segment patterns -- they always work. For example 7 off > 74151 8 > input muxes and a single inverter (1/6 of a 7404) That has the > advantage > of automatically providing actrive high and active low outputs. That only gives you 8 patterns, not 16 .. ? > Or use a 74154 to decode the input bits and then logically OR the > active > low outputs together with 7430 8-input NANDs. The thing is that a given > segment is either on in 8 or fewer patterns or it's off in 8 or fewer > patterns (it must be one or the other since there are only 16 > patterns). > So you can get away with 8 input NAND gates, maybe you need to invert > the > outputs (7404s again) [1]. So that's 9 packages (74154, 24 pin, 7 off > 7430, 14 pin and a 7404, also 14 pin. If you need to invert all 7 > putputs, > and thus need more than the contents of a 7404, then I would simply > redefine the problem to use the other type of display :-). Actually, in > all cases you probably want some kind of driver on the outputs, so you > can pck a normal or inverting onme. > > I've not writtne down the turth table so I don't know if you can use > smaller NAND gates for some of the outputs, and thus get away with > fewer > packages. You can get by with 4-in for 2 or 3 of the segs, depending on c or C. > Anoyther idea. A '247 to get the 0-9 patterns. 3 off '253 dual 4-input > mexes. These decode the low 3 bits (and may need an extra inverter) to Each one of those 5 or 6 muxes (for 5 segs) only gives you 4 states/patterns, there are 6 (A-F) patterns needed (?). > get the segment aptters of the a,b,c,d,f segmetns of the A-F patterns > (e > and g are always on in those states. And a little bit of logic to > disable > the '247, enable the muxes and turn on e,g for the appropriat input > states. Probably only a couple more chips. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 29 18:13:10 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:13:10 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCAE807.5429.186E67E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 28, 10 02:14:48 pm, <4CCAE807.5429.186E67E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <125d6f9da34a536da1c63d5ba9386f03@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 29, at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 7447 has a problem in that the "6" doesn't have the top crossbar, > so that it's indistinguishable from a "b". The '247 does include the > top segment when displaying '6', which is why I mentioned the 247 and > not 47. I too realised that halfway thru the exercise and went scrambling back to the databook to check on the 247. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 19:46:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 17:46:23 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <125d6f9da34a536da1c63d5ba9386f03@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCAE807.5429.186E67E@cclist.sydex.com>, <125d6f9da34a536da1c63d5ba9386f03@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CCB086F.20713.2057EB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I too realised that halfway thru the exercise and went scrambling back > to the databook to check on the 247. Another reason to lament the passing of the hardcopy databook. I used to sit and read them cover-to-cover. Not really possible in today's world. The data's out there, but not in any form that you could really curl up with and browse. The app notes were particularly fun. Sigh. --Chuck From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 21:08:50 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:08:50 +0100 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB Message-ID: Hi, I am on the lookout for a monitor something similar to a Phillips cm3388 does anyone near London have one they would like to sell or trade, or know of anywhere I could get one. Thanks Dan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 29 21:18:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:18:50 +0100 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB808A.4050502@philpem.me.uk> On 30/10/10 03:08, Dan Williams wrote: > I am on the lookout for a monitor something similar to a Phillips > cm3388 does anyone near London have one they would like to sell or > trade, or know of anywhere I could get one. Surely you mean the CM8833? Those were fairly extensively re-badged -- Acorn, for instance, sold a variant of the CM8833 Mk.II as the AKF17. The Microvitec Cub series might also be worth a look -- these take either TTL or analogue RGB plus composite sync on a DIN plug, and are commonly used with BBC Micros. You should be able to snag either of these for ?10 to ?20, but you might end up re-homing its associated machine too (the AKF17 was typically paired with the A3000 computer and some of the later Archimedes series machines; A3000s aren't really much bigger than a PC keyboard) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Oct 29 22:21:13 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:21:13 -0400 Subject: Tangential to Topic: Old Chip Programmers Work w/ || Port in Docking Station? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB8F29.10707@30below.com> On 10/29/2010 03:02 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> >> Do any of you know if chip programmers (the EMP-30 specifically) work okay >> with the parallel ports in port expanders? How about the Cardbus (or >> whatever is replacing it) parallel port cards? >> > > My *guess* is that you probably would not have much luck with a > parallel port which is behind any sort of USB interface. You might > have to read some fine print to determine whether the ports on a > notebook port expander / docking station are behind a USB interface or > a more native PCI bus. > > If you try an ExpressCard (replacement for CardBus) parallel port card > you also need to make sure it is a native PCIe parallel port and not a > USB-parallel port. The ExpressCard form factor has both PCIe and USB > interfaces and it is not always clear which interface an ExpressCard > device uses. Right -- check these out; same manufacturer, similar but not exactly the same picture, different prices: http://www.amazon.com/Port-Expresscard-Parallel-Adapter-Card/dp/B001Q7X0W6 [[ this is the "good" one - see the single 5* review ]] =-= or =-= http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-EC1UP-1PORT-Parallel-Expresscard/dp/B001IOPHVE [[ with the single 2* review... ]] =-=-= The former might actually do what you need, the latter probably will not; and the price shows the difference... There may be others out there that would work, but this was a 5-minute search after a 14-hour day... ;-) Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 29 22:42:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:42:15 -0700 Subject: Tangential to Topic: Old Chip Programmers Work w/ || Port in Docking Station? In-Reply-To: <4CCB8F29.10707@30below.com> References: , , <4CCB8F29.10707@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CCB31A7.19320.2A7CF01@cclist.sydex.com> If you're in the mind to "roll your own", there's an AVR-based USB-to- parallel interface that gives you the ability to twiddle parallel port pins to your heart's content: http://bit.ly/bshloi It might work for you. Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 30 00:31:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 01:31:38 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBADBA.6060103@neurotica.com> On 10/29/10 4:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you >>> can't do memory-mapped I/O. > > I beleive Steve Ciarcia said in one of the Circuit Cellar articles in > Byte many year ago that any processor that could access memory could have > memory-mapped I/O. He certainly did, I remember that article well. He started the article by relating a conversation that he'd had with a fellow computer guy, and they were arguing (I think) 6800 vs. Z80. He said something like "When he said the 6800 had memory-mapped I/O and the Z80 didn't, I knew he didn't know what it was". :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Oct 30 00:58:40 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:58:40 -0700 Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) Message-ID: OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped I/O in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I can't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific instructions for I/O, which might well facilitate the process beyond the simple mechanics of memory-mapped I/O (think about polling on a skip flag on a PDP-8) but also potentially limited one in either range or capability. It's also important to recognize that the PDP-11 *enforced* memory-mapped I/O in an upper region, which limited working store (and it was not the only machine to do so, e.g. Alto). And we're discussing this because...? :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 10:31 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) On 10/29/10 4:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you >>> can't do memory-mapped I/O. > > I beleive Steve Ciarcia said in one of the Circuit Cellar articles in > Byte many year ago that any processor that could access memory could have > memory-mapped I/O. He certainly did, I remember that article well. He started the article by relating a conversation that he'd had with a fellow computer guy, and they were arguing (I think) 6800 vs. Z80. He said something like "When he said the 6800 had memory-mapped I/O and the Z80 didn't, I knew he didn't know what it was". :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nathan at nathanpralle.com Fri Oct 29 12:27:36 2010 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:27:36 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals Message-ID: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS disks and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is the entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG It's been sitting, covered, pretty much since I obtained it, but now I can try reviving it and actually seeing what it can do. I'm going to tear into it and clean the drives and so forth, document what it has, etc. and then boot 'er up and see what we can see. I'm looking for a copy of the Technical Ref manual for it; despite finding scans of the covers and so forth online, I'm unable to actually locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to speed as well. Many thanks, Nathan -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nathan Pralle, Computer Geek Email: nathan at nathanpralle.com Web: http://www.nathanpralle.com Blog: http://www.philosyphia.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/NathanPralle -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From bqt at softjar.se Fri Oct 29 14:02:41 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:02:41 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB1A51.8070308@softjar.se> On 2010-10-29 17:34, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 28, at 2:46 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > On 2010-10-28 23:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >> How about the notion that the PDP-11 was where several prior but >>> >> then-topical innovations coalesced into one machine/architecture? >> > >> > I think that would be a very dubious, and hard to prove claim.:-) > It may be more work than proving an individual claim of innovation, but > it is still a plausible notion to research historically. You're right. And it might be true. Just hard to prove. >>> >> ... >>> >> On the topic of memory, I would agree with Johnny about "virtual >>> >> addresses", but differ on "virtual memory": virtual memory to me has >>> >> always meant demand-paging where the RAM address-space seen by the >>> >> user >>> >> can be larger than the physical RAM, distinct from the simple mapping >>> >> of addresses, but the use of the term is a matter of definition. >> > >> > Thank you. >> > But what, pray tell, would you say a virtual address pointed to, then? >> > Magic smoke?:-) > Physical memory via the MMU; this is not a contradiction. You know, a virtual address on a VAX points to physical memory via the MMU as well. :-) The point of virtual memory is that appears as a single, continous memory space, even though it might be scattered all around in physical memory, and you can have several virtual mappings for the same memory space, which do not translate to the same physical memory. That is what defines virtual memory, I'd say. Not how many bits there are, or by how the OS reacts when you address memory for which you not currently have a valid mapping. >> > Why are people so hung up on physical memory size vs. virtual memory >> > size when they need to define what virtual memory is? >> > I just don't get it.:-) > Because there is a fundamental difference between having your valid > address space limited to available physical RAM, even if you can map a > "virtual" address to different places in that RAM, and having a > transparently addressable (large) address space unlimited by a lesser > quantity of physical RAM. In the latter it*appears* (hence virtual) > that you have more RAM than you actually do. This has always (IME) been > the common meaning of "virtual memory". I assume you've seen my post by now, where I point out that the physical address space of a VAX was/is 34 bits, while the virtual address is 32 bits. So you can have the exact same scenario on a VAX that you normally have on a PDP-11. :-) I mean, on the PDP-11, let's pretend you had the exact same architecture, but you limited the physical address to 12 bits, would that then have meant that it had virtual memory? Just because you put an arbitrary lower limit on one parameter? > I'm too many years away from programming a PDP-11, but while it may as > you suggest have been possible to do demand-paging in principle, how > complex might it have been in practice? Trapping an address fault might > be easy enough, but what about instruction restart/re-execution while > accounting for all possible side effects that may or may not have > occurred between the start of the instruction and the address fault. Not complex at all. But the OS would have to keep some more data around to be able to figure out where to page in data from when a page fault occurred, as well as keeping track of allocated physical memory in a different way than any current OS do. RSX (which is the OS I know best) can keep physical memory usage tracking simpler since you always allocate chunks of physical memory, not pages. And the executable part of a program is just one chunk, even though it might be many pages. And the whole chunk is moved in and out from swap. A program can, however, have several chunks mapped in. Shared libraries are their own chunks, and you have a lot of other kind of chunks as well. At most, your program might be referencing around 32 chunks, I think. (Don't remember the actual limit, or how it is enforced.) And a chunk can be more than 64K. It's just that you cannot have more than 64K mapped into your virtual address space at one time. One more potential headache is that the pages on a PDP-11 are variable in length. In addition to the page protection bits, you also have a page length field in the MMU, so you don't need to allow just nothing, or all 8K of a page. The granularity of the length is 64 bytes. And you can choose whether the top, or bottom part of the page is valid. As for instruction restartability, it works just fine. DEC did think of that. But that is also why I'm saying not all processors could do demand paging. You need MMR3 (I think it is), which keeps a scorecard of how much registers have been modified by the aborted instruction, so that you can back out of it again. Older machines don't have that register, and thus cannot undo a partially executed instruction. > IIRC, the 68000 series ran into this problem when people started trying > to do (demand paging) VM with it. When an address fault occurred, not > all of the instruction state was saved and restarting the instruction > became a problem. It was fixed in the next version but I forget where > in the series (68010->20, 20->30, etc). It was a problem in the original 68000. It was fixed in the 68010, unless my memory fails me. One more an example of how much better the PDP-11 was than the 68K. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Fri Oct 29 14:14:37 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:14:37 +0200 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> On 2010-10-29 19:00, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:11, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Next question: Does the VAX not have virtual memory any more now that >> I've pointed this out? Or do you need to redefine virtual memory in >> yet a new and strange way to exclude the PDP-11... :-D > > I think that using memory address spaces to qualify the "virtualness" > of memory is following the wrong animal. I think that virtual address space is intimately connected to virtual memory, and you cannot have one without the other. If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then I'd say you have virtual memory. > I would define "virtual memory" as the ability to fool a program into > thinking that it has more physical memory than is actually present. > So, can a PDP-11 with 16K of memory appear to a program as if there > were 32K present? Certainly. If we just disregard that the code needed to implement this thing might need more memory than 8K. The program that we intend to fool must have atleast 8K of physical memory, to which we can read in and out pages. With 16K that would leave just 8K for out demand paging software... Well, actually, this is a bit too simplified. An instruction can potentially refer to 4 pages, so we would need to be able to have four pages to be able to fully fool a program. That would mean minimum 32K of physical memory to use for the user program. And then some for your kernel. But you'd probably be able to come in under 56K, while fooling the program that is has 64K. With less than four pages, you could get into a situation where mapping in one page means you have to map out another, which the instruction refers to, and when you restart the program you'll just get another page fault, ad infinitum... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 15:24:17 2010 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:24:17 +0200 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It'd be interesting what OS ran on this lab-setups. Something from DEC or something custom? -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2010/10/18 Richard : > The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. ?I > have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). ?I'll > upload some pics this week. > > However, while I was packing up the stuff I bought at the vendor's > store, I saw that he had the rest of the system and not just the one > terminal. ?Looks like a couple other terminals, some > characteristically PDP-11 enclosure boxes (2x floppies, some other > stuff, power enclosure). ?It looks like this stuff was meant to be > rack mounted, except for the terminals, because there's no typical DEC > enclosure like I would expect. > > Googling doesn't turn up anything useful except the usual firewalled > citations from IEEE and ACM journals containing product announcements. > > Does anyone know more about these systems? ?From the descriptions that > leak through google, it appears that it might have had some graphics > capability and that interests me quite a bit. ?I couldn't look at the > system close up because it was on a huge pile of stuff and I didn't > have time to dig it out. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 29 17:43:53 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:43:53 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB4E29.6070801@jwsss.com> eons ago at a TRW a friend bought a nice box that looked much like an ADM3a with nice case, integrated CRT and keyboard, and gleefully gave the guy selling it about $40 for it. This was in the day of $700 terminals new prices. It was a Vector graphics console. Unfortunately he had not looked at the back, or thru the cracks, but it was a plastic case with a keyboard and CRT inside, no PS, electronics or anything else. I suspect when he moved east some years ago it got dumpstered, but it was about the same sort of thing, no brains in the "terminal" but in the box. Jim On 10/29/2010 1:11 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Richard writes: > >> The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. I >> have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). I'll >> upload some pics this week. > I'm away from my camera, so pics will have to wait until this evening > or the weekend. > > However, I opened the case and was very surprised with what I found > inside the terminal. > > Its basically an empty box! > > The most recent date code we could find was late 1978 and that was on > some logic chips on the keyboard assembly. As near as I can tell, the > keyboard is the smartest thing in the enclosure :-). There is a long > ribbon cable coming from the keyboard and the video section is wired > to what looks like an RS-232 connector on the rear (obviously it is > not RS-232, but it is one of those DB-25 style connectors). My guess > is that the main Nuclear Data box generates video and receives either > parallel or serial keycodes from the keyboard. > > So, in order to get this terminal working I'm obviously going to need > the rest of the system... From wgungfu at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 18:19:38 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:19:38 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: I'd be interested as well, same situation. On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Pralle wrote: >> Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS disks >> and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is the >> entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: > > Not to assume that anyone is running a disk-duping service for the > Model II, but I just acquired one recently also (just the main box, > not the whole table :) and I am without media of any sort. ?I've got a > lot of blank 8" disks, though, and would be happy to send them ahead > or trade them for something to boot the big grey beast. > > -- > jht > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 01:39:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:39:57 -0700 Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCB5B4D.16207.34A7FBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:58, Ian King wrote: > And we're discussing this because...? :-) I think it stems from the discussion of PDP-11 "firsts". Memory- mapped I/O was brought up and I mentioned that the CDC 7600 CPU enjoyed memory-mapped I/O, but Erik disagreed. Since there's not a lot of information wandering around about 7600 I/O system structure, it could be that he's not familiar with it. A shame that much of the 7600 information may be lost. Bitsavers only has a couple of documents related to 7000 SCOPE, none of which discusses the OS organization, which was unusual for CDC and probably much of the industry at the time. My take on the PDP-11 trailblazing was UNIBUS, which essentially let I/O and memory cards be plugged into the same bus without (much) regard to placement. Memory-mapped I/O appears to be an outgrowth of that philosophy. I don't think anyone even mentioned UNIBUS in the PDP-11 discussion... --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sat Oct 30 02:52:01 2010 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:52:01 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct27, 10 05:07:03 pm, <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:55 PM > OK, I claim three solutions: Assuming I haven't muffed the thing somewhere, I have a solution using a 74154, a 7410, a 7411, and two 7420. That's a total of 5 chips; no pull-ups or anything but straight TTL. The only thing tricky about it is to calculate 1\3\7\ using one of the 7411 gates, then use that as an input to widen both the NAND gates for both upper left and lower left vertical segments. All 3 sections of the 7411 are used to widen (as needed) the NAND gates being used to drive the actual segments. Segments default "on" (low) unless their NAND gate is turned "off" (high) by some active low output from the 74154. Vince From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 30 04:18:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:18:35 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> On 29/10/10 21:04, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/25/10 10:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I'd appreciate it if anyone interested in buying a DiscFerret could >> email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk > > Would this version have connectors for ST-506 drives as well? No -- I haven't got that part finished yet! The "adapter kit" won't be too expensive though -- it consists of a few differential line drivers, a PCB and a couple of cables. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 07:02:00 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:02:00 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:52 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:55 PM > > OK, I claim three solutions: >> > > > only 4 chips ;) 74138 74247 7407 7403 and 4 pullups =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 07:17:08 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:17:08 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:02 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:52 AM, Vincent Slyngstad < > v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote: > >> From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:55 PM >> >> OK, I claim three solutions: >>> >> >> >> > > only 4 chips ;) > 74138 > 74247 > 7407 > 7403 > and 4 pullups > > little typo - early in the morning you know 7403 should be 7409 -- gotta love that Negative Logic ;) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 07:25:50 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:25:50 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > I'd be interested as well, same situation. > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Jason T wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Pralle > wrote: > >> Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS > disks > >> and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is the > >> entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: > > > > Not to assume that anyone is running a disk-duping service for the > > Model II, but I just acquired one recently also (just the main box, > > not the whole table :) and I am without media of any sort. I've got a > > lot of blank 8" disks, though, and would be happy to send them ahead > > or trade them for something to boot the big grey beast. > > > > - > > I like the model II as well, a nice CP/M brute, something about that gray plastic I think Jason, I had mine made at Mike's house - Mike Loewen - he has a setup including the 8" drive, mine doesn't yet. But I still need to work on replacing the foam keyboard switches - one by one - Mike has a nice homebrew solution for that as well which I'm using. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 30 09:49:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:49:55 -0400 Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) In-Reply-To: <4CCB5B4D.16207.34A7FBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCB5B4D.16207.34A7FBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCC3093.9060705@neurotica.com> On 10/30/10 2:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My take on the PDP-11 trailblazing was UNIBUS, which essentially let > I/O and memory cards be plugged into the same bus without (much) > regard to placement. Memory-mapped I/O appears to be an outgrowth of > that philosophy. I don't think anyone even mentioned UNIBUS in the > PDP-11 discussion... This happened right around the same time as the introduction of the PDP-8/e with its Omnibus, which is very similar in that regard, though the I/O system is...how shall I put it; OH SO VERY different. (for non-PDP8 people: plugging I/O controllers into the bus slots adds device-specific instructions, called "IOTs", to the machine's instruction set) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 30 11:26:26 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:26:26 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> On 10/30/10 2:18 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 29/10/10 21:04, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/25/10 10:54 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>> I'd appreciate it if anyone interested in buying a DiscFerret could >>> email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk >> >> Would this version have connectors for ST-506 drives as well? > > No -- I haven't got that part finished yet! > > The "adapter kit" won't be too expensive though -- it consists of a few differential line drivers, a PCB and a couple of cables. > If it's going to be an adapter, could you add holes for SA1000-style 8" drives (50pin/20pin cabling)? From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 11:33:24 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 17:33:24 +0100 Subject: Amiga Kickstart 3.1 Message-ID: Hi folks, Anyone got some spare Kickstart ROMs for an Amiga 4000? I'm doing an exhibition in a couple of weeks time and completely forgot my A4000 is only on KS 3.0! I have OS3.5 ready to install. I also picked the wrong time to give away my DEC 3000-300s since the one I kept blew up this afternoon, fortunately we have spares for that at work I can 'borrow' :) Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 11:37:33 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 17:37:33 +0100 Subject: More A4000 that I forgot to put in the previous message Message-ID: Hi again, Has anyone got a spare Zorro Ethernet card I can buy/borrow? Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 12:08:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:08:19 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> References: , <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2010 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get > the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at > roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data > back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then > I'd say you have virtual memory. So, your definition ties virtual memory into multi-user access? That's not the way I learned it. Consider (again folks, I'm sorry for the reference) the CDC 6600 (circa 1964). Every user is given a relocation address (called RA) and field length (FL) as a way of partitioning main memory. Each user's memory addressing space is kept isolated from every other's and this fits your definiton because one user's location X was different from every other user's location X and there was no way for a user to tell what his RA was; i.e. each user was safely "boxed in". That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. Over- committing memory meant writing/reading the entire FL of a user to disk ("rollout" and "rollin"). Now consider the STAR-100 (I think it would qualify as the first virtual memory machine of CDC), circa 1969. Every user got an addressing space of 48 bits, but the machine itself had only 512Kwords (64 bit) of physical storage. For production use, most of the time the system was run in single-user mode (kept thrashing down with large data sets). That fits my definition of VM because the user was fooled into thinking that there was more physical memory than there really was. Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 12:21:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:21:07 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4CCBF193.19364.2603DF@cclist.sydex.com> On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one furnished. --Chuck From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 30 13:05:06 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:05:06 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC5E52.9000802@xs4all.nl> Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS > disks and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which > is the entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: > > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG > > It's been sitting, covered, pretty much since I obtained it, but now I > can try reviving it and actually seeing what it can do. I'm going to > tear into it and clean the drives and so forth, document what it has, > etc. and then boot 'er up and see what we can see. > > I'm looking for a copy of the Technical Ref manual for it; despite > finding scans of the covers and so forth online, I'm unable to actually > locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service > Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to > speed as well. > See http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/mirror/trs-80_archives/Manuals/Hardware/Model_II_Technical_Reference_Manual_(1980)(Radio_Shack)(pdf).zip. The Shugart stuff should be included. Essential this is from a modified copy of the files that were available from http://www.trs-80.com/ (copied without permission). > Many thanks, > > Nathan > > Success, Fred Jan P.S. My own adventures with the Model II: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 30 13:35:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:35:32 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> On 30/10/10 17:26, Al Kossow wrote: > If it's going to be an adapter, could you add holes for SA1000-style 8" > drives (50pin/20pin cabling)? I almost mistook that for a floppy drive until I looked it up on Bitsavers...! I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. - Two jumpers to disconnect the Timing Clock from the ST412/506 Data connector when these are not in use (or maybe just a second connector?) - A 50-pin connector for the SA1000 control cable The extra cost probably isn't worth worrying about... though I might have to restrict drive selection to Drive 0 only in order to get enough I/O pins for head selection. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 13:47:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:47:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> from "Nathan Pralle" at Oct 29, 10 12:27:36 pm Message-ID: > locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service > Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to > speed as well. ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed too good to miss :-) More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for them on bitsavers? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 13:55:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:55:03 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> from "Nathan Pralle" at Oct 29, 10 12:27:36 pm, Message-ID: <4CCC0797.19723.7C011E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I > know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed > too good to miss :-) Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be "interesting"... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 30 14:29:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:29:06 -0400 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the > bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: > - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 > to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what standard > crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The FPGA's > PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired frequency spot-on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 30 14:34:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:34:25 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was > used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file > access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. > That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector > machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather > than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't refer to this sort of thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 30 14:58:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:58:46 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCC78F6.9040004@philpem.me.uk> On 30/10/10 20:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's > overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired > frequency spot-on. ?8.25 each with no quantity discount is *not* cheap. The FPGA only costs a few quid more than that. Digikey have them for ?5.86, but that's still more than a crystal. I wonder how the host adapters for the SA1000s generated this clock frequency... it does seem somewhat odd. The other thing is, I'd be concerned about releasing hardware with SA1000 support without testing it on an actual drive. I'm willing to bet the chances of me finding a working SA1000 in 230V/50Hz configuration are somewhere between 'slim' and 'nil'. I'll guarantee ST506 support though, given that I've got an ST277R RLL drive and controller here. Just need an MFM controller for it, or the RLL code tables for the Seagate ST21R or ST22R controller (which IIRC uses an Adaptec AIC010 chip)... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 30 15:23:00 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:23:00 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCBF193.19364.2603DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4CCBF193.19364.2603DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8534ab06c8e0281a7fcfc54d6a70efa5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 30, at 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the > second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? > > http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- > pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html > > I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as > counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one > furnished. It's obviously a state diagram for a decade counter, my guess is someone just screwed up making the datasheet and included the state diagram from some other device. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 30 15:36:50 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:50 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> References: , <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would tell me about the new mmap function in unix. > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file > I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file > I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and > indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't > refer to this sort of thing. Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 30 15:36:53 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free In-Reply-To: <8534ab06c8e0281a7fcfc54d6a70efa5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <960487.42595.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fall cleaning! I have a bunch of old computers and some peripherals. Most are not tested and I expect they may need some work to become operational, though some may work correctly as-is. Anyway, I'm hoping to find people interested in restoring these systems. There are three Burroughs B25 systems, each has a processor box, disk box, monitor, keyboard, and power supply. There is one box of docs and diskettes and one, very dirty, printer. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b1.jpg http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b2.jpg http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b3.jpg http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b4.jpg IBM convertible, an early laptop type system. A Computer Products portable, thermal, serial terminal. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-ptr.jpg A Radio Shack TRS-80 model I with expansion chassis and monitor. I believe this has a bad power supply. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-rs.jpg A NEC Spinwriter terminal. This is like a Diablo daisywheel terminal except the print element is a cylinder. I know this one needs work but does power up. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-spin.jpg Some kind of cartridge tape system. I think it's SCSI interfaced. I don't believe this has ever been used. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-tape.jpg A large flatbed scanner that I also believe is unused. It's SCSI interfaced. UMAX 3000. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-scanner.jpg Digitech RS-232 analyzer with manuals. This runs CP/M 86 but I don't have the boot disc for it. Does power up. http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-anal.jpg Kaypro 2, powers up and ask for a system disk. http://www.anifur.com/clist/kaypro1.jpg Hitachi pen plotter. This has a parallel interface. It powers up and works from the front panel. Light weight. http://www.anifur.com/clist/hitachi1.jpg Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg Nicolet Zeta 8A pen plotter. 8 pens. Also powers up and works from the front panel. Serial interface. All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the Bonny Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara where I work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really don't want to ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and these are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 15:39:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:39:13 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>, <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk>, <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to > > the bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: - > > An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 > > to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what > > standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. > > The FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to > > check. > > You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. > It's > overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired > frequency spot-on. Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? --Chuck From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 15:52:12 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:52:12 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 Message-ID: Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried all the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no joy. I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power amplifier. Thanks for any and all help. Best regards, Steven From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 15:54:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:54:40 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> References: , <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in > the > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file > I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file > I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and > indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't > refer to this sort of thing. I'm sure and I'd never seriously call it "memory-mapped I/O"--but sometimes our world seems akin to that of Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less" Uh-oh, here comes another story... After I left CDC and the STAR project in 1977, my past came back to haunt me in the form of doing an optimizing FORTRAN for the ETA-10 in about 1983. We got a leased-line linkup to ETA in St. Paul and I asked what text editor they were using. Much to my surprise, it turned out to be the same editor I'd written for a lark around 1975 when the STAR had lots of really interesting byte string instructions and I could exploit file-mapped I/O to use them. Mind you, this was in the day of 16-line 1200 bps terminals. But the ETA-10 had none of those instructions, essentially having evolved out of the "everything but the kitchen sink CISC" state of mind of the original architecture. Some programmer had been detailed off to replace all of those cool vector instructions with their scalar equivalents! I was stunned and opined that with that way of thinking, the software end of the ETA project was doomed. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 30 15:58:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:58:20 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>, <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk>, <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCC86EC.8040906@philpem.me.uk> On 30/10/10 21:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? > Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? They're both differential. It's just that the SA1000 expects you to feed it a reference clock signal. It doesn't have to be locked against write-data, it just has to be there, and be accurate to 0.1%... Assuming the OEM manual is accurate, of course. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:23:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:23:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCAE807.5429.186E67E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 10 03:28:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Anyother thought I had is to use a 7447 for the lower 8 or 10 > > patterns (as it's designed to do!) and add logic for the higher ones. > > I don't know if that saves chips. > > The 7447 has a problem in that the "6" doesn't have the top crossbar, > so that it's indistinguishable from a "b". The '247 does include the > top segment when displaying '6', which is why I mentioned the 247 and > not 47. Yes, I should have remembered that... > > This brings to mind an ancient "fix" for the 47 "6" display--a > pulldown diode connected between segment "e" and segment "a"--in the Been there, done that :-) > display of 0-9 there is no time when segment "e" is active that > segment "a" isn't also active. The converse, however isn't true--and > this "fix" will mess up your display of "b" if you use the method > described previously to display 0-F. Of course. For 'b' you mmed the 'e' segment without the 'a' segment. That's what distinguishes it from '6' > > But if you allow diodes, then there's no reason not to use a 4-to-16 > demux and a mess of diodes to do the decoding for 0-F, is there? while my original question didn't preclude the use of discrete components, and while I happly ageee that the odd diodes, pull-up resisotrs, etc can lead to interesting solutions, I do feel that such a diode matrix is outisde the spirit of the problem. After all, you could say it can be solved with no ICs at all, just lots of discrete transistors, etc. :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:27:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:27:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: <4CCB4E29.6070801@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Oct 29, 10 03:43:53 pm Message-ID: > eons ago at a TRW a friend bought a nice box that looked much like an > ADM3a with nice case, integrated CRT and keyboard, and gleefully gave > the guy selling it about $40 for it. This was in the day of $700 > terminals new prices. > > It was a Vector graphics console. Unfortunately he had not looked at > the back, or thru the cracks, but it was a plastic case with a keyboard > and CRT inside, no PS, electronics or anything else. I suspect when he I am suprised there wasn't the standard driver circuits for the CRT (from composite vidoe, say). My guess is that there should have been, and they were msising. > moved east some years ago it got dumpstered, but it was about the same > sort of thing, no brains in the "terminal" but in the box. ICL did something similar. They had 'terminals' that consisted of encoded keyboards and composite monitors. The case was painted a horrible orange colour ... I think I still have one of the keyboards somewhere, but I mangaged to give the monitor away some years ago (thankfully...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 16:07:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:07:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <4CCC0797.19723.7C011E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 30, 10 11:55:03 am Message-ID: > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > > > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I > > know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed > > too good to miss :-) > > Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz > (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've > made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be > "interesting"... Actaully, a lot of the 8" drives I have have 120V motors, but of course the right pulleys for 50Hz mains. They are run from an (auto)transformer, often the primary winding of the syatem mains transformer. So I suppose he could have something like that :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:41:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:41:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <83a48da1dc70d2bfb06a7c3e0172907d@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Oct 29, 10 04:06:49 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Oct 29, at 2:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > For those who are wondeirng, the 'trivial' solution I mentioned uses 7 > > off 74150 16-input multiplexers, one for each segment. You tie the > > inputs > > high low to determine if that segment is on or off for a given set fo 4 > > input bits. > > > > After posing that, I thought of other solutions that make no > > assumptions > > about the segment patterns -- they always work. For example 7 off > > 74151 8 > > input muxes and a single inverter (1/6 of a 7404) That has the > > advantage > > of automatically providing actrive high and active low outputs. > > That only gives you 8 patterns, not 16 .. ? Err, no. That's what the extra inverter is for. You know hos to use a 2^n input mux to make an arbitrary combinartorial function of n signals. Feed the n signals to the select inputs of the multiplexer and wire the 'data' inputs high or low as the truth table requires. But you can also yuse a 2^(n-1) input mux and maybe a single inverte, you connect n-1 of the input lines to the select inputs of the mux. And then for each of those combinations you consider the 2 truth table lines that apply (the last input, the one you've not used yet, of course distinguishes between the 2 lines in each pair). There are 4 possibilites : a) The output of the function is 0 in both cases (it doesn't depend on the last input at all) --> wire that input of thr mux to ground b) It's 1 in both cases -> wire the input to Vcc c) It's 0, 1 , it follows the last input in this case -> Wire that last input signal to the appropraite input of the multiplexer d) It's 1,0, it's the opposite of the last input. This is when you need that inverter. Invert the last input signal and wire the appropriate multiplexer input to the ouptu of the inverter. If oyu requre several functions of the same inputs (as here), you only need 1 ivnerter (assumeing there are no fan-out problems), since it's always thge same singal (say the 2^0 data input) you need to invert. Son yes, you can use 8 input multiplexers here (and 4 input ones if you only want to generate 6 or 8 patterns). Now, another silly aside... If you want to use a 2^(n-2) mux, you may need any or all of the 16 possible functions of the last 2 inputs (you split up the truth table into sets of 4 lines, and see which function of the last 2 inputs gives the right paattern, of course). This makes it less useful :-). But it's made me think pof a chip that AFAIK never existed... If you think of those 16 possible functions of 2 inputs, then 4 of them are 'trivial' in the sense that you can produce them with no logic at all. Namely 'always 0', 'always 1', 'equal to the A input' and 'equal to the B input'. Which leaves 12 non-rtrivial ones/ Now that means there could have been a 16 pin IC with 2 power pins, 2 inputs and 12 outputs, the 12 non-trivial functions of the 2 inputs. Use that witha 74150 for an arbitrary fucntion of 6 inputs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:44:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:44:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCB086F.20713.2057EB2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 10 05:46:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I too realised that halfway thru the exercise and went scrambling back > > to the databook to check on the 247. > > Another reason to lament the passing of the hardcopy databook. I > used to sit and read them cover-to-cover. Not really possible in Absolutely. Of cousre I've kept all my old paper databooks, and still read them from time to tieme. Yes, it's very useful being able to get data on just about any standard IC over the internet. But it's useful in a different way being able to flip through a data book, see what's available, etc. I've yet to find a manufacturer's site that lets me browse in the same way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:48:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:48:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: <4CCB808A.4050502@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 30, 10 03:18:50 am Message-ID: > > On 30/10/10 03:08, Dan Williams wrote: > > I am on the lookout for a monitor something similar to a Phillips > > cm3388 does anyone near London have one they would like to sell or > > trade, or know of anywhere I could get one. > > Surely you mean the CM8833? > Those were fairly extensively re-badged -- Acorn, for instance, sold a=20 > variant of the CM8833 Mk.II as the AKF17. Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? I think it was available as an option, but most of them take analogue RGB on the SCART socket. Most of the time the SCART inputs, for all they're supposed to be 1V will stand TTL (the CM8833 ones certainly will). Or since they're terminated to ground through a 75 ohm resistor, connect a 300 Ohm (or so) resistor in series with each TTL signal. Done that many times :-) Is there any reason a TV with a SCART socket isn't suitable? Most, if not all, LCD and plasma TVs should haev RGB inputs on the SCART socket, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 15:52:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:52:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Oct 29, 10 10:58:40 pm Message-ID: > > OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped I/O = > in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I can= > 't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific instruc= The obvious problem would be if the memroy map is already totally full. If you've got a Z80 systme with 64K of memory, it would be perverse to try memory mapped I/O (you could have some kind of MMU, but why...). Similarky trying to emmeroy map any kind of I/O on a 2MByte PERQ would be an 'interesting' exercise... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 30 16:09:44 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:09:44 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free In-Reply-To: <960487.42595.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <960487.42595.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <981998b8f30737dece941bd3fc38a0c1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 30, at 1:36 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg I dismantled one of these a few years ago, it contained an (NEC-branded) 8080, a whack of NEC 8255's (PIO), half-a dozen ceramic Fujitsu MB8516's (2K*8 EPROMS, 2716-like), all socketed, for anyone that might take an interest in such stuff. > All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the > Bonny Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara > where I work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really > don't want to > ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. > > Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and > these are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. > > Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 30 16:11:06 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:11:06 -0600 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC89EA.1000405@jetnet.ab.ca> looks for 74S188 with google http://www.futurlec.com/Memory/74S188pr.shtml From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Oct 30 16:17:16 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:17:16 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Y'all are making me miss my tandy model 16 and 6000. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 16:21:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:21:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: from "alan canning" at Oct 30, 10 01:52:12 pm Message-ID: > > Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried all > the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no joy. > I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. > > Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and > Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power > amplifier. IIRC, this is a PROM, 32*8 I think. Do you have a copy of the data to program into it? A blank chip is not a lot of use to you otherwise... Also while all the derives you've mentioned are I think compatible when being read (that is, as they are normally used in the circuit), the programming algorithms are different for differnet manufacturers. You need to get one that your programmer can handle -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 16:18:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:18:38 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 13:52, alan canning wrote: > Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've > tried all the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. > ) with no joy. I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. > > Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 > and Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF > Power amplifier. If you'd like something a bit closer to home, you might try ACP-- they're listing some IM5603s on eBay for $7.95 the each. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 30 16:21:37 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 17:21:37 -0400 Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free References: <960487.42595.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Rosenbloom" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free > > Fall cleaning! > > I have a bunch of old computers and some peripherals. Most are not tested > and I expect they may need some work to become operational, though some > may work correctly as-is. Anyway, I'm hoping to find people interested in > restoring these systems. > > > A large flatbed scanner that I also believe is unused. It's SCSI > interfaced. UMAX 3000. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-scanner.jpg > Thats seems like a nice vintage high end scanner scanner (hope somebody grabs it): PowerLook 3000 Technical Specifications Type Color Flatbed Method Moving Flatbed, Single-pass, color Element 10,500 elements, Tri-linear coated color CCD Light Source Cold Cathode Lamp Hardware Resolution Lens 1: 1220 dpi x 3048 dpi Lens 2: 3048 dpi x 3048 dpi Maximum Interpolated Resolution 12,192 dpi x 12,192 dpi Scanning Resolution 1 dpi to 12,192 dpi Maximum Scan Size Lens 1: 8.5" x 11.7" Lens 2: 3.4" x 11.7" Speed Color: 14.4ms/line I/O Buffer 2MB Maximum Density 3.6Dmax Scan Modes 24/42-bit color 8/14-bit gray scale 1-bit halftone 1-bit line art Scaling Lens 1: 1% to 400% Lens 2: 1% to 1000% Highlight/Shadow 256 steps Contrast/Brightness +/-100% Gamma Curve Downloadable Curves Data Output 14-bit extendible Hardware Interface SCSI-2 Operating Noise Under 60 db Operating Temperature 25? - 104? F Humidity 25% to 85% Power Consumption 60 Watts Voltage 100-240VAC Frequency 47-63Hz Dimensions 21.6" x 16.8" x 8.6" Net Weight 41.46 lbs. System Support Mac OS 8.0 to 9.1|Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP|UNIX drivers are available through third-party. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 30 16:27:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCB1D1D.1010406@softjar.se> <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101030142002.O28695@shell.lmi.net> > > I'd say you have virtual memory. On Sat, 30 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, your definition ties virtual memory into . . . > That's not the way I learned it. > That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. . . . > So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. Thank you, Chuck! As usual the bulk of the argument was semantics and differing definitions. Depending on the definitions, even LIM EMS could be considered to be "memory-mapped" "Virtual" memory. Even Magnetic Drum memory would meet some definitions. We all seem to like a good technical argument, but we never seem to be willing to clarify the terminology until late in the discussion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Oct 30 16:34:41 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:34:41 +0100 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC8F71.2090409@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? I think so; there's an 8-pin DIN socket on mine that takes RGB video at TTL levels. Works directly from, say, a BBC Micro. It also has a SCART socket for analog RGB and composite. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 30 16:35:42 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:35:42 -0600 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCC8FAE.6080409@jetnet.ab.ca> On 30/10/2010 3:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, this is a PROM, 32*8 I think. Do you have a copy of the data to > program into it? A blank chip is not a lot of use to you otherwise... You can get proms burned here: http://www.hobbyroms.com/index.html Does the output have to Open Collector? I was thing of substituting a 32x8 tristate prom. > Also while all the derives you've mentioned are I think compatible when > being read (that is, as they are normally used in the circuit), the > programming algorithms are different for differnet manufacturers. You need > to get one that your programmer can handle > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 16:40:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:40:09 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 14:18, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you'd like something a bit closer to home, you might try ACP-- > they're listing some IM5603s on eBay for $7.95 the each. Scratch that--they're 1Kbit PROMs. My bad. Although, if you can make it work by juggling a couple of signals, you can try the 3-state 82S123 version or perhaps the 1Kbit (82S29/129) versions. The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these things. I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 30 17:20:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:20:18 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <20101030142002.O28695@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101030142002.O28695@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CCC37B2.23418.137EC6A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > We all seem to like a good technical argument, but we never seem to be > willing to clarify the terminology until late in the discussion. It reminds me of last week's discussion of "Random Access Memory" not applying to magnetic drum. So, is NCR's CRAM (card random access memory) "Random Access Memory"? --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 30 19:43:18 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 01:43:18 +0100 Subject: VCFMW Pics and Shirts References: Message-ID: <008c01cb7896$cf079800$bafdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Hi, I know I'm replying a month (and a bit!) after you posted your message, but was wondering if you have any left in size L? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:55 PM Subject: VCFMW Pics and Shirts > It's been a week since VCFMW and now we've got some galleries to > display! You can find them at vcfmw.org. I have video from the > abortive uStream broadcast that I still need to chop up (it made a > 2.8gb .flv file!) but will post as soon as I can. I'm not at all > happy with the video or audio quality, so different methods will be > employed next year. > > We still have a stock of shirts remaining. The design can be seen here: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/VCFMW50OfficialGraphics#5512512730455260610 > > If anyone would like one, they are $15 incl. shipping in the US (talk > to me if you're international.) Here are the sizes we have left (you > can tell which we'll order more and less of next year :) Same yellow > design on black or Navy-Blue Gildan pre-shrunk cotton shirts: > > Blue M: 2 > Black M: 1 > Black L: 11 > Black XXL: 8 > Blue XXL: 3 > Blue XXXL: 2 > > Thanks and see you next year! > > -j From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 22:19:08 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:19:08 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many thanks to all who responded ( and so quickly ) and thanks for the heads-up on the programmimng problems with the alternate parts. Also thanks for the website of the guy who can program these parts. My programmer only does modern parts; EPROMs and EEPROMs. Yes I have to use the open collector parts. The old parts did not suffer bit rot ( as is usually the case ) but rather where nuked into submission by a huge RF E-field due to a broken grounding / shielding scheme ( may have seen 100 Volts per meter !! ). After checking MANY empty sources found a cache of parts at www.jameco.comfor $5.45 each so I bought a tube of them. Thanks again for all the help. Best regards, Steven From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 30 23:17:18 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fall cleaning, Burroughs, TRS-80, IBM Convertable & Kaypro spoken for In-Reply-To: <960487.42595.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <586147.48630.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Burroughs, TRS-80, Kaypro, and IBM Convertable are spoken for. The other, really nice stuff, is still available! Thanks Bob From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 04:38:53 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:38:53 +0200 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBE7AD.2090908@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:46 PM > >> > Why are people so hung up on physical memory size vs. virtual memory >> > size when they need to define what virtual memory is? >> > I just don't get it.:-) > Perhaps because that's the way the term of art "virtual memory" (whether > as segments or as pages) has been defined since it was first conceived? > > Virtual addressing is necessary for virtual memory. The converse is not > true. Well, it is obviously not a definition DEC agrees with, so I guess that means there are two different schools (atleast) here. And when talking about the VAX (which this thread started with), it might be meaningful to use DEC's definition? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sat Oct 30 18:32:04 2010 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:32:04 -0400 Subject: Dec Power conditioner Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20101030192142.0249f418@verizon.net> Just saw this on Ebay, don't think I've ever seen one before. Digital model H7226-KC CVC, Constant Voltage Conditioner 290487489386 Wanted to remind everyone that Christmas is right around the corner and this little stocking stuffer is perfect for that man with the Vax 750/780 in the basement. Doug From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 04:55:53 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:55:53 +0200 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBEBA9.6070402@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > On 29 Oct 2010 at 0:11, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > >>> >> Next question: Does the VAX not have virtual memory any more now that >>> >> I've pointed this out? Or do you need to redefine virtual memory in >>> >> yet a new and strange way to exclude the PDP-11...:-D >> > >> > I think that using memory address spaces to qualify the "virtualness" >> > of memory is following the wrong animal. >> > >> > I would define "virtual memory" as the ability to fool a program into >> > thinking that it has more physical memory than is actually present. > I don't think that's an essential component of the term as I learned > it 20+ years ago. > > My understanding is that in a machine that supports virtual memory, > you have virtual address space(s) and physical address space. > Physical addresses are something you can see with a logic analyzer and > point to a physical chip and say "my data is right*there*". If you > have two processes running on the same CPU, they both agree where > 0x0000 (or 0x00000000) is and it's the same place. If one process > writes a value there, both processes would read that value back. In > virtual space, each process*thinks* they are writing to 0x0000, and > they can read back the value they wrote, but not each other's values. > In fact, unless they peek under the covers, they have no idea where in > physical memory their own virtual 0x0000 is. Indeed. Finally someone with the correct definition of virtual memory. You could also draw the parallel to a virtual machine. It fakes a real machine, making you think that you have your own. Virtual memory fakes real memory, making you think you have your own. Exactly how this is done is not a part of the definition. Nor is the relation between the sizes of virtual and physical memory relevant. If you get the impression that you have the full address range available to do with as you please, even though you are not alone on a machine, then you are presented with virtual memory. > In practice, quite often virtual memory_is_ used to fool programs > about how much physical memory there is, but the PDP-11 is a specific > counter-example to "more than is actually present". Taking the VAX > first (since we all know "all the world's a VAX";-), you might have > 8MB of physical memory installed in an 11/750 in a physical memory map > of 16MB (24 address bits). So in this model, your virtual space is 32 > bits (the size of your address registers), while your physical space > is 24 bits. From the process side, every process "sees" 4GB (32 > bits) of space with lots of holes in it (mostly holes). If your > program keeps requesting more and more memory from the OS, at first, > you may be given chunks of real memory mapped into your virtual space; > eventually that will be exhausted and your OS will most likely start > paging and reserve storage for you until that runs out (so always > check the return of malloc() even if you think you can't possibly run > out of virtual memory). Yes. You could also say that demand paging is *required* in order to fool a program that it has more memory than what is physically available. And virtual memory is also required to make this work, but they are two different things. You can have virtual memory without having demand paging. > On the PDP-11, your process's_virtual_ space is 64KB - 16 bits, the > size of your registers, while some PDP-11s can have up to 256KB of > physical memory (18 bits), and many can have up to 4MB (22 bits) of > physical memory. In this case, you still have virtual space different > from physical space (and the same scenario where two different > processes agree on where 0x0000 is in physical space but maintain > their own 0x0000 in their respective virtual spaces). Exactly! >> > So, can a PDP-11 with 16K of memory appear to a program as if there >> > were 32K present? > That all depends. Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged > virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 > (but not effectively on the 68000) - some architectures have memory > management hardware that can "tell" if a reference is about to hit a > patch of virtual addresses that don't have physical memory mapped to > them and invoke some OS-specific routine to either allocate or pull > from storage what needs to be there and resume the instigating > instruction as if nothing happened (which is part of what > distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). > > On the PDP-11, we used overlays to load, say, 32K of code into 16K of > physical memory, pulling in routines when they were needed, but it was > done at the application level, not the instruction level. It is not > the same thing as demand-paged virtual memory (which_is_ used to make > it seem that there is more memory than physically installed). Well. A PDP-11 can restart an instruction if needed, and you get a trap when trying to reference virtual memory that isn't enabled in the MMU. SO all the components for demand paging is there in the hardware. Overlays solve a different problem, so it's not really meaningful to compare them to demand paging. Even if an OS on the PDP-11 had demand paging, you would still need to use overlays exactly the same way as now. Overlays solves the problem that the virtual address space is only 64K. Demand paging does not solve that. Demand paging solves the problem of not needing to have all virtual address space mapped to physical address space at the same time, thus saving on physical address space. You could say that demand paging makes more efficient use of physical memory. And it is also required if you want to map more virtual memory than you have physical memory. (But we already hashed through that :-). ) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paul0926 at comcast.net Sat Oct 30 05:01:42 2010 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 04:01:42 -0600 Subject: Unknown Wangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2010, at 9:45 PM, Jason T wrote: > > > The first I'm not even sure of the make - its colors sort of suggest > DEC but I'm leaning toward it being a Wang printer stand: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/MysteryCart# > Apologies if somebody already answered this. I am almost certain this is a wang disk drive stand. IMaybe for a 2280 but I am not 100% sure. Paul From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 05:51:08 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 12:51:08 +0200 Subject: 68K (was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBF89C.1090809@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> > On 2010 Oct 29, at 10:39 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >> >>> >> That all depends. ?Back in the day, what we did was not demand-paged >>> >> virtual memory (something supported natively on the VAX and the 68010 >>> >> (but not effectively on the 68000)... (which is part of what >>> >> distinguishes the 68010 from the 68000 - instruction restart). >> > >> > There have been a couple of indications it was the '10 that added the >> > instruction restart, but was the implementation in the '10 bug-free? > I know it works well enough in early Sun workstations and the AT&T > Unix PC (3B1/7300), but I have no knowledge of any required > workarounds due to possible bugs. Yes, the 68010 worked fine with demand paging. The 68000 did not. Neither of them implemented instructions restarts, though. As noted below, the 68010 did instuction suspension instead. The "interesting" workarounds that I've hear of are actually 68000-related. As the 68000 could not do instruction restarts, people originally through you couldn't use it in demand paging systems. However, I think it was Apollo (but it might have been some other company) did come up with a solution. The 68000 could not restart an instruction, nor suspend them and later resume. However, you could stall the processor indefinitely. Using their own designed MMU (there were none from Motorola for the 68000), and a second CPU, Apollo made the primary CPU stall on a page fault, and the secondady CPU wake up. The secondary CPU could then do a page in. Once the page was available, the primary CPU was allowed to continue. (One alternative version of the design that I heard was that the secondary CPU would run in parallel with the primary, but slightly behind, so that it could be interrupted before starting to execute the instruction causing a page fault, and then you'd have the saved state before the page fault in the secondary CPU, but I don't think that this is a plausible design). >> > I didn't deal with the problem directly, heard about it from some friends >> > who were programming around it, and it would have been 1989, so long after >> > the 00->10 transition. My recollection about the issue was there was a bug >> > under certain conditions that was fixed in the next version, as distinct >> > from a 'new feature', but perhaps it was just the way the problem was >> > described to me or the way I understood what was being said. > I have no memory of issues with instruction restart on the '10, but I > didn't use that feature of the chip when I was doing embedded product > development 20+ years ago (we only used it for the "loop mode" > 1-instruction cache feature that allowed so-called "DBcc loops" to run > ~50% faster due to not needing fetch cycles while in the loop). > > Could what you remember be something to do with "instruction restart" > vs "instruction continuation"? (a distinction I was not making, but > now that I've read this - > http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/doc/dpbm68k1.htm - perhaps that's a > better way to describe it). They are two different things, yes. But they serve the same purpose. It's just different ways of dealing with what to do after a page fault (or any trap from which you want to recover). The advantage of instruction continuation, especially with the 68010, is that it didn't introduce any incompatibilities with the 68000. If you had implemented instruction restarts instead, you would have had to introduce a bunch of new registers in the CPU that kept track of partial modifications done before the trap, so that you could undo them before restarting the instruction. With instruction continuation, it's all preserved internally in the CPU without exposing the software to anything new. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 06:04:28 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:04:28 +0200 Subject: VAX addressing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBFBBC.6040002@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, wrote: > Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: > >> > Now, I direct you all to page 4-7 of that document, which talks about >> > physical addresses on a VAX. >> > Notice how a physical address on a VAX can be 34 bits, while the > virtual >> > address is only 32 bits. > > VAX virtual addresses have always been 32-bits although system space S1 > (the top 1GiB) was never defined. The XVA project allowed it to be used > (on some hardware platforms). Yes. And the virtual address space is divided into 4 parts (as you well know :-) ). P0, P1, S0 and S1. Only P0 and P1 is actually process local, while S0/S1 is system wide. > The (related) XPA project allowed the physical address space to grow > beyond > 1GiB but only to 4GiB (32-bits). Well, the design allows it to grow to 34 bits. Specific implementations might have limited it to 32 bits, but that's another story. > DEC STD-032 does allow for a 34-bit PA implementation but I don't know > of > one. The VAX 6000/7000/10000 all only implemented 32-bit PA mode > (afaik). > I don't know (off hand) whether the chipset could do more. Two different things here. The NVAX chip have two different formats of the page address. 21 bits or 25 bits. With 21 bits, you can only get 30 bit physical addresses (the old VAX model). With 25 bits, you get a total of 34 bits of physical address. Now, I don't know if the NVAX brought all 34 address bits out of the chip, but that is the size of the physical address created by the MMU anyway. The actual machines, such as the VAX 7000 on the other hand, clearly only allowed a max of 4G. Of that, 3.5G was for physical memory, and 0.5G was reserved as I/O space. But that is a design decision of a machine, and have less bearing on the architecture. It is a question of the bus used in the machine, as well as where I/O adapters will be present on the bus, and so on. I suspect all software running on a VAX7000 to always have the top two bits of the PFN in the PTE to always be zero. But the bits are there none the less. Anyhow, even with only 3.5G of physical memory, it will be more physical memory than any one process can have virtual memory on the VAX, since a process cannot be larger than 2G (P0,P1) > So (barring any inormation to the contrary) I think it's only a > theoretical > possibility:-) Probably. It would be interesting to see the pinout of the NVAX chip, to see if they brought all 34 bits out on that chip. All existing VAXen restricted physical addresses to at most 32 bits, though. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 06:10:50 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:10:50 +0200 Subject: Memory mapped I/O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBFD3A.9080804@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>> > > Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you >>> > > can't do memory-mapped I/O. > I beleive Steve Ciarcia said in one of the Circuit Cellar articles in > Byte many year ago that any processor that could access memory could have > memory-mapped I/O. Good point. Was the PDP-11 the first computer that did not have dedicated I/O instructions then? Thus relying on memory mapped I/O, instead of just having it as a potential (as any computer do). Did anyone before the PDP-11 actually utilize memory mapped I/O before? The fact that lots of machines do it today (even the x86 I guess) could just be a legacy of the PDP-11 making it popular? (Oh, and I'm not counting the IOT instruction on the PDP-11 as an I/O instruction... :-) ) > I would add that in the case of a system (rather than a bare processor), > it helps if there's some spare space in the memroy map:-). Indeed. :-) >> > And there were other PC displays, that didn't use memory-mapped video > if by 'PC' here you mean something descended from the IBM5150 then I am > curious. All the IBM dipslay adapdaters that I can think of were memory > mapped. Yes, even the PGC had a memory-mapped CGA emulation. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sat Oct 30 06:18:09 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:18:09 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 firsts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCBFEF1.80602@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 01:12, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as >> > possible firsts on the PDP-11. >> > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? >> > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally >> > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? > The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). Could you use it like any other register? > There are 16 registers, some instructions can only use the first 8, others > can use all 16. Addressing modes (simpler than the PDP11, I admit) are > pretty much orthogonal. Sounds like the registers were atleast not as orthogonally used as on a PDP-11. If an instruction could take a register, it could take any register. And all addressing modes are valid (well, almost) anywhere. The one exception that pops into my head is that you cannot do a "JMP R0" on a PDP-11. (Well, there might be a model or two where it was allowed, since some models actually exposed the registers in the address space, and you could execute from those addresses, but that is kindof weird). One wonderful thing about the PDP-11, which unfortunately did not get copied, was the nice things that happened because the PC was e general register. Thus, the PDP-11 never had special versions of instructions to implement immediate mode operands, and so on. All that was solved because the PC was a general register. (Well, the VAX sortof have it, but no other machine I know of.) > I am not sure wheterh the PDP11 or P800 was first,m they both appeared in > 1970 I beleive. Would be interesting to find out more. > What do you mean by condition codes here? The four low bits of PSW. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 14:06:53 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing Message-ID: All, I'm trying to evaluate a pile of large MFM hard drives for functionality. I'm attaching them to a WD-1006V-MM2 controller and running Sprinrite 4 under DOS 6.0 (using a 486 EISA motherboard). This works fine for drives with < 1024 cylinders, but I cannot seem to remember (or figure out) how to surface-test drives with more cylinders (e.g. Priam V185 with 1166). How do folks on the list test these beasts? I've seen SCSI controllers and ESDI controllers with CHS translation, but that feature does not seem to be available on the MFM adapters. Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 05:35:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:35:04 -0200 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 References: Message-ID: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) Just got one (eee!!!), now what to do with that? I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( Thanks! Alexandre --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Oct 31 06:00:13 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:00:13 +0100 Subject: Repairing core memories.... Message-ID: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. The other stack seems to be a total loss : 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. Of course the further quality of the cores is unknown. Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of these ? Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK stack would seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be on a edge of a core mat. Any ideas / suggestions ? Jos From ats at offog.org Sun Oct 31 06:02:15 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:02:15 +0000 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:48:01 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? It depends -- there were lots of variants of the 8833 with different input options. I've owned three: a Philips-branded one that has analogue RGB on a DE9, a Commodore 1084S which has separate DINs for analogue and TTL RGB, and the Acorn equivalent which has a SCART connector. The 1084S at least is perfectly happy to accept TTL RGB on its analogue RGB input, as you suggest; I use mine that way with my BBC Micros (having made up the cable when I didn't have the right DIN plug for the TTL input!). They're really nice monitors, aside from the tendency of the flap covering the controls to fall off and get lost. The 1084S seemed quite expensive in 1990, but given that it's still in regular use 20 years later, I'm not going to complain. ;-) What I'd really like is a nice big old broadcast-quality RGB monitor to use with classic computers and laserdisc/video, but I'm not too hopeful about one coming up locally (Dundee), and I wouldn't want to ship one... -- Adam Sampson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 06:15:51 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:15:51 -0200 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB References: Message-ID: <01cb01cb78ed$5c82a840$6600a8c0@portajara> > The 1084S at least is perfectly happy to accept TTL RGB on its analogue > RGB input, as you suggest; I use mine that way with my BBC Micros > (having made up the cable when I didn't have the right DIN plug for the > TTL input!). They're really nice monitors, aside from the tendency of See here: :oD http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/gambiarras/20.jpg :o) (root page: http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/gambiarras/) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Oct 31 08:21:01 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:21:01 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCC7341.1090704@neurotica.com> <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCD6D3D.9060409@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >I'm sure and I'd never seriously call it "memory-mapped I/O"--but >sometimes our world seems akin to that of Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use >a word it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less" > > Each adjective and noun can often mean many different things to individuals with different backgrounds. The other day I had an interesting discussion concerning the words "never" and "always". While my definition for each word is 0% and 100%, respectively, it soon became apparent that "never" might, in some circumstances include up to 10% and "always" might be as low as 90%, depending on the context. DoubleSpeak seems to be easy for many individuals where being precise is not very important. Fortunately, as a programmer, I learned very early to appreciate the lack of redundancy in any language used for code with a computer. Or maybe that should be "UNFORTUNATELY". >Uh-oh, here comes another story... > >After I left CDC and the STAR project in 1977, my past came back to > > Interesting!! I worked for CDC in Toronto from around 1972 to 1977 on the local PL-50 program. IIRC, the PL-50 was a much slower version of the STAR-100, but with the same instruction set. Initially, the goal was to write an operating system. However, after almost 35 years, I probably don't have any STAR-100 manuals around. If I do, they are probably buried in the mountain of old documentation. Chuck, do you have any of the manuals around for the instruction set. Might there be such a manual on bitsavers? For reasons that are best forgotten, when the project was cancelled just short of being finished, I ended up attempting to tidy up some of the loose ends. I also made a comparison with the the IBM virtual memory and ran some code on both the PL-50 and the IBM 370 (?? is that the correct IBM model around 1975?) to compare the efficiency of the paging algorithm on each machine. One rather interesting aspect of the paging algorithm on the STAR-100 made use of the hardware stack of pages which was kept in an LRU (Least Recently Used) order in a List in memory. When the number of available pages (either completely free or unaltered) fell below the accepted threshold, the MOST LRU altered page was written to its disk backup in anticipation that that page would be the MOST LRU when the time came to discard that page from physical memory. In order to test the size of the threshold, statistics were kept on how often that page was altered again (which meant that the disk I/O operation had not been very useful. Throughput was significantly increased since the required new page (at a different virtual address) could be read immediately without having the double wait time due to writing out an altered MOST LRU page before the replacement page could be read. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Oct 31 08:25:19 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:25:19 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> References: <4CC9EA22.6030406@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CCD6E3F.2090802@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > As for what PDP-11 might have innovated, we have covered the memory > mapped I/O at some length now, and it appear that the PDP-11 might > atleast have a half claim to fame there. But, as some pointed out, the > x86 do not use memory mapped I/O (and shared memory with a graphics > subsystem is not the same thing). Most RISC machines did/do use memory > mapped I/O anyway, but I digress... > > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as > possible firsts on the PDP-11. > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? > > I don't know of any machines before the PDP-11 that had these. > Admittedly, the only one of these attributes the x86 inherited (from > wherever) is condition codes, but I think it might be interesting to > hear the collective wisdom on some more details than just memory > mapped I/O... I have followed this thread with interest. It certainly brings up how original DEC was during its first two decades. However, I don't think that DEC was unique in that regard since those years were when a great amount of innovation took place at many other companies as well. In answer to Johnny's questions about other hardware which also had the same capability, I suggest that we evaluate the CDC STAR-100 and its dwarf brother (IIRC) the PL-50 which was much slower, but had the same instruction set. This hardware was mentioned briefly in reference to its 48-bit virtual address, Note that the 48-bit address was to the bit level which is equivalent to a 45-bit byte address - which is still far larger than any physical memory of today. And this was back around 1972. At one point, we calculated that at ONE MegaByte per second transfer rate (a very high sustained rate in 1972), it would take ONE year to write all of virtual memory to a disk drive if there had been a drive large enough to hold all that data - about 32 TerraBytes I think. By the way, as a bit of clarification, the operating system that I worked on limited the user address space to just 16 TerraBytes since all virtual addresses with the high order bit set were dedicated to the operating system. So obviously the STAR-100 used a virtual address which was far larger than the available physical memory. In fact, there was so little physical memory (I seem to remember 2 or 4 MegaBytes of core), most of the time it was faster to run only a single job as Chuck Guzis mentioned yesterday. For registers, I seem to remember there were 256. I can't remember how they were divided or used, but I think that some registers were 32 bits and other 64 bits. In addition, the PC register may have been available along with a status register. For condition codes, I am confident that the same sort of conditional branching was available after each scalar instructions as is found on a PDP-11, but I can't find any of my old manuals to verify that aspect. Note that the primary attribute of the STAR-100 was its vector instructions. As a result, the scalar instructions were probably compromised. However, there was a full set of scalar instructions which may have been (in some manner) similar to PDP-11 instructions. I seem to remember that the instructions had a variable length as does the PDP-11. Also, Chuck Guzis mentioned yesterday there was the ability to map complete files (to a virtual address window) which could contain either code or data. Normally, the files were data to be saved on the disk drive where the permanent record of the file was stored. But the key point is that once the file was opened and mapped during the open request to a specified address window, the operating system took care of reading and writing the file as and when any particular virtual address was referenced by the program. I understand that many current operating systems / hardware which do the same at present? One rather interesting aspect of the paging algorithm made use of the hardware stack of pages which were kept in an LRU (Least Recently Used) order in memory. When the number of available pages (either completely free or unaltered) fell below the accepted threshold, an altered page was written to its disk backup in anticipation that the page would be the MOST LRU when the time came to discard that page from physical memory. Throughput was significantly increased since the required new page (at a different virtual address) could be read immediately without having the double wait time due to writing out an altered MOST LRU page. If anyone here has access the STAR-100 manuals, that might be the best way to verify the aspects that Johnny has mentioned with regard to innovations there were brought out during the 1970s decade by various companies. Since the STAR-100 design must have started before 1970, the innovations would probably not have been influenced by the PDP-11 and visa versa. Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 08:47:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:47:09 -0400 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK stack > would seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be on a edge > of a core mat. > > > Any ideas / suggestions ? Yes, core memory can be repaired by replacing individual cores and restringing wires. Most (nearly all I have seen) stacks actually have repairs if you look for them, as the production process never was perfected. The manufacturers had women at benches reworking core planes all day (what a job, eh?). For your core plane, a rather common type, it may not be worth it. Just wait until you can get a replacement, then put the bad plane up on Ebay to pay for it. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 10:14:26 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:14:26 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:19 PM, alan canning wrote: > Many thanks to all who responded ( and so quickly ) and thanks for the > heads-up on the programmimng problems with the alternate parts. Also thanks > for the website of the guy who can program these parts. My programmer only > does modern parts; EPROMs and EEPROMs. > What part did you get exactly? Or maybe you won't know for sure until they arrive? If you can't program them yourself there are probably a few people on the list that would be willing to program them for you if you covered the postage. I have a BP Microsystems BP-1400 and can program most DIP and PLCC parts, except really old 1702 / 2708 parts. I can program Philips / Signetics 82S23 and Nat Semi DM74S188 parts. I'm in the Seattle area. -Glen From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 31 10:21:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:21:23 -0700 Subject: 68K In-Reply-To: <4CCBF89C.1090809@softjar.se> References: <4CCBF89C.1090809@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CCD8973.4050702@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Apollo [...] Using their own designed MMU (there were none from > Motorola for the 68000), The MC68451 was an MMU for the MC68000/010/012. It didn't use fixed-size pages, but it definitely was an MMU. > If you had implemented instruction restarts instead, you would have > had to introduce a bunch of new registers in the CPU that kept track > of partial modifications done before the trap, so that you could undo > them before restarting the instruction. [...] With instruction > continuation, it's all preserved internally in the CPU without > exposing the software to anything new. With instruction continuation, it most definitely was not "all preserved internally in the CPU"; if that were done you'd be in big trouble if you did a context switch to another process then it got a bus error also. On the MC68010/012/020/030, when a bus fault or address fault happened, a big block of internal CPU state was puked onto the stack. As a consequence, the stack frames used for all exceptions (not just bus error and address error) were different than those of the MC68000/008. That most definitely does expose the software to something new. An operating system for the MC68000/008 generally could not be used on the MC68010/012/020/030 without modification. Alternatively, instruction continuation could have left the partially completed instruction state in programmer-visible special registers, as was done for instruction restart in the high-end PDP-11 models. Then the software could either handle the page fault immediately, or save those register on the process stack or in a process control block, and handle the page fault later. On a CISC, there's a potential problem with instruction restart, which is that if there aren't enough free MMU pages available, you can get into a situation where an instruction can never complete execution. When you try to execute it, you read the first word of the instruction, but get a page fault reading the second word of the instruction which is in the next virtual page and not resident. The page fault handler may page out the page containing the first instruction word, and page in the page containing the second instruction word, then try to restart the instruction. Now it gets a page fault when reading the first instruction word. This is a trivial example, but on a complicated CISC an instruction may have to touch a lot of pages (on the order of a dozen in some cases), and if the software doesn't map them all simultaneously, the instruction can never execute to completion. With instruction continuation, as long as the entire processor state relevant to the partial execution of the instruction is preserved (as is the case on the MC68010/012/020/030), even a complex instruction touching many pages can continue to make progress as long as at least a single MMU page can be devoted to the process. Eric From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 10:28:33 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 08:28:33 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: <4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these > things. ?I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them. > I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 11:04:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:04:17 -0400 Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD9381.10508@neurotica.com> On 10/30/10 4:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped I/O = >> in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I can= >> 't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific instruc= > > The obvious problem would be if the memroy map is already totally full. > If you've got a Z80 systme with 64K of memory, it would be perverse to > try memory mapped I/O (you could have some kind of MMU, but why...). > Similarky trying to emmeroy map any kind of I/O on a 2MByte PERQ would be > an 'interesting' exercise... Well there are tricks like the "no-slot clock" idea, like the DalSemi DS1216. It sits in memory space, acts like memory, but when a series of patterns are written to it it switches a set of locations (I don't recall the details) from being a few bytes of RAM to being a few bytes of RTC registers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 11:06:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:06:11 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 6:35 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) WAY off-topic. > Just got one (eee!!!), Cool! > now what to do with that? Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point math. > I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( Problem solved; I'll put a set in the box I'm packing up for you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 31 11:42:27 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:42:27 -0700 Subject: Memory mapped I/O In-Reply-To: <4CCBFD3A.9080804@softjar.se> References: , <4CCBFD3A.9080804@softjar.se> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:10:50 +0200 > From: bqt at softjar.se > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Memory mapped I/O > > On 2010-10-30 01:12, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > >>> > > Just because a CPU architecture has IO instructions doesn't mean you > >>> > > can't do memory-mapped I/O. > > I beleive Steve Ciarcia said in one of the Circuit Cellar articles in > > Byte many year ago that any processor that could access memory could have > > memory-mapped I/O. > > Good point. > Was the PDP-11 the first computer that did not have dedicated I/O > instructions then? Thus relying on memory mapped I/O, instead of just > having it as a potential (as any computer do). Did anyone before the > PDP-11 actually utilize memory mapped I/O before? The fact that lots of > machines do it today (even the x86 I guess) could just be a legacy of > the PDP-11 making it popular? > > (Oh, and I'm not counting the IOT instruction on the PDP-11 as an I/O > instruction... :-) ) > > > I would add that in the case of a system (rather than a bare processor), > > it helps if there's some spare space in the memroy map:-). > > Indeed. :-) > Hi One thing to consider is that I/O on many of the larger machines included a lot more that just a simple read and write. Various states, status and controls were built into the I/O itself. Even interrupt and dma were more integrated into the I/O hardware. Special conditional branches had there own special instructions. The I/O hardware would often handle many hardware specific operations that today we tend to let the processor handle. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 31 11:46:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:46:52 -0700 Subject: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) In-Reply-To: <4CCD9381.10508@neurotica.com> References: ,<4CCD9381.10508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:04:17 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of)) > > On 10/30/10 4:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped I/O = > >> in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I can= > >> 't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific instruc= > > > > The obvious problem would be if the memroy map is already totally full. > > If you've got a Z80 systme with 64K of memory, it would be perverse to > > try memory mapped I/O (you could have some kind of MMU, but why...). > > Similarky trying to emmeroy map any kind of I/O on a 2MByte PERQ would be > > an 'interesting' exercise... > > Well there are tricks like the "no-slot clock" idea, like the DalSemi > DS1216. It sits in memory space, acts like memory, but when a series of > patterns are written to it it switches a set of locations (I don't > recall the details) from being a few bytes of RAM to being a few bytes > of RTC registers. > On my NC4000 I/O board I decoded the 0FFFF address and used that for a quick byte swap. -1 was a quick address to locate and write/read on that processor. This was much better than shifts. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 12:11:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:11:39 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: , <4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:28, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these > > things. ?I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them. > > > I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but > not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're 471s under the hood. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 12:12:31 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:12:31 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:06 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 10/31/10 6:35 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) > > WAY off-topic. Some of us would debate that. I personally think the Ultra 2 and the Ultra 60 as two of Sun's greatest machines. They're practical to own, and take processors that will make them fairly useful. I'm also pretty fond of Sparc 20's. My Ultra 60 has dual 450Mhz CPU's, it's far more practical than my SunBlade 1000 (to much electricity used, and heat generated). My only problem is I've never gotten a Copper GigE card. >>Just got one (eee!!!), > > Cool! Agreed! >>now what to do with that? > > Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point math. One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. >>I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( > > Problem solved; I'll put a set in the box I'm packing up for you. Cool! In the mean time plug in a serial terminal. The Ultra 60 is one of the few Suns I've ever used a keyboard and mouse on, though I typically used a PS/2 keyboard an mouse on mine. I have a Sun adapter that allows that, and it works with a KVM. I've not gotten any of my Sun HW set back up since we bought our house. Sun HW and a couple SGI O2's are the only real exceptions to my rule about not collecting UNIX HW. I used the Suns a lot as general purpose workstations and servers at home. Either running Solaris, or OpenBSD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 12:15:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:15:01 -0700 Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm trying to evaluate a pile of large MFM hard drives for > functionality. I'm attaching them to a WD-1006V-MM2 controller and > running Sprinrite 4 under DOS 6.0 (using a 486 EISA motherboard). > > This works fine for drives with < 1024 cylinders, but I cannot seem to > remember (or figure out) how to surface-test drives with more > cylinders (e.g. Priam V185 with 1166). The convention when the cylinder field overflows 10 bits is to use the two high-order bits of the head field (that's why MFM, and for that matter, IDE drives max out at 64 heads when non-LBA geometry is used.). --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 12:19:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:19:35 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 1:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) >> >> WAY off-topic. > > Some of us would debate that. I personally think the Ultra 2 and the > Ultra 60 as two of Sun's greatest machines. They're practical to own, > and take processors that will make them fairly useful. I agree that they're two of their best designs. I just think that machines which are still pretty common in production environments, built around a modern architecture, are hardly "classic computers". That's all. > I'm also pretty fond of Sparc 20's. As am I. >>> now what to do with that? >> >> Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point math. > > One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. ...unless you want to use it for real work of course. (referencing "older", not OpenBSD) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 12:24:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:24:16 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 1:19 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >>One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. > > ...unless you want to use it for real work of course. >(referencing "older", not OpenBSD) We have a production system still running Solaris 2.6 at work. I was thinking along the lines of the older the OS, the less cruft, and the better on the older hardware. For the past few years I've typically run Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 12:32:37 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:32:37 -0200 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <053701cb7924$22bebc20$6600a8c0@portajara> >> Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) > WAY off-topic. Sorry you all :o( >> now what to do with that? > Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point > math. I always wanted to run solaris, now I have a chance :oD Internet navigation in a BIG computer :oD >> I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( > Problem solved; I'll put a set in the box I'm packing up for you. W00T! :oD Thanks a lot, Dave! :oD Since it is SO offtopic, I'll direct my other questions directly to you From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 12:34:28 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:34:28 -0200 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara><4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <053801cb7924$2451b830$6600a8c0@portajara> > Sun HW and a couple SGI O2's are the only real exceptions to my rule about > not collecting UNIX HW. I used the Suns a lot as general purpose > workstations and servers at home. Either running Solaris, or OpenBSD. My impossible dream is to get a SGI machine. Any of them. There is an Ozone (or something like) in a surplus seller I know, but he asks just too much money for it. Someday I'll get one :oD It is a pride and joy for me to have a SGI machine on my desk :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 12:37:08 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:37:08 -0200 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 References: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864@cclist.sydex.com><4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <053901cb7924$25794840$6600a8c0@portajara> >I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but >not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? AFAIK the algorithm is the same, the only difference is in speed/fan out From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 12:54:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:54:08 -0700 Subject: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCD6D3D.9060409@compsys.to> References: , <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCD6D3D.9060409@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4CCD4AD0.28674.362B3F@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Interesting!! I worked for CDC in Toronto from around 1972 to 1977 on > the local PL-50 program. IIRC, the PL-50 was a much slower version of > the STAR-100, but with the same instruction set. Initially, the goal > was to write an operating system. I was part of the Sunnyvale mafia and worked with quite a number of your Canadian co-workers. Anil and I later partnered up on the FORTRAN compiler for the ETA-10. You probably remember that the PL- 50/STAR-65 met an unfortunate fate at the hands of the corporate "leave nothing behind" people. I witnessed firsthand, the destruction of the two STAR-1B systems a couple of years later. It wasn't pretty--a dumpster, bolt cutters and large hammers. I saved a heatsink from the power supply--there wasn't much else left intact. I begged to be allowed to take the ROS stack from one system, but no such luck. The stations were removed and sent back to Arden Hills. -- I'm going from memory on this one, but there's some STAR literature on bitsavers if you want to check my facts. 256 registers of 64 bits; if halfword mode was selected, the lower 128 were doubled and the upper 128 were inaccessible. Many registers had special meanings, including program status, cycle timer and a few others. Internally, memory was fetched 512 bits ("Super word" or "sword"; really 544 bits with ECC included) and the vector pipes were 128 bits wide (2 single-precision results per cycle). An odd machine in that scalar operations were most decidedly RISC in attitude. For example, there were only load and store register- memory operations and one had to use 2 instructions (EX and ELEN) to enter a full 64-bit immediate constant into a register. No stack or auto-increment/decremet per se; subroutine linkage was done with a sort of S/360-style LM-STM combo "swap" instruction that simultaneously stored and loaded any number of registers. The machine architecture itself was basically 3-address, so instructions were either 32 bits or 64 bits in length. Before an ECO ("Rev. R") was installed on all systems, all registers could also be addressed as the lower 256 words of user memory address space. This hugely complicated instruction scheduling and so it was determined that it wasn't needed. I know you guys used the RED OS, but we had to use STAR-OS from LLL as our base in Sunnyvale. It was basically a message-passing OS with a controller started by the job scheduler, which could have as many controllees as desired. You could send a message up the chain, one level, or to the top or broadcast to all controllees. I recall that the termination message content was the characters "ALL DONE". Regarding paging, I saw my share of DEADBEEF codes (was the STAR OS the first to use this failure code?). At some point we went from a demand-paging algorithm to a working-set one, but the stuff that the pager had to keep track of made the code a nightmare. Jim Smith suffered a lot on that thing. It didn't help that we had to scavenge time on the customer systems at LLL or hop the "noon balloon" out of San Jose to use the system at ADL. One thing that I never got to try on the 100 was seeing how long a maximum-length packed BCD divide would take. Given that the byte instruction field lengths were 16 bits, it meant either 65K or 131K digits... One memory I have is being sent to Arden Hills in January during the OPEC oil embargo and settling in for the night in the machine room at ADL because it was warmer than my room at the Ramada. I"d love to find someone who spent time on the TI ASC to compare notes... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 31 13:07:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:07:43 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCC2E49.6478.1132958@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCDB06F.9090905@brouhaha.com> On 10/31/2010 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:28, Glen Slick wrote: > > >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>> The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these >>>> >>> things. I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them.> >>> >> I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but >> not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? >> > They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they > changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to > TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're > 471s under the hood. > True, but it has absolutely *nothing* to do with whether a National Semiconductor DM74LS471 uses the same programming algorithm and electrical parameters as the SN74S471. They might, but it was not uncommon for different vendors to have parts that did NOT program in the same way. They often did their own designs, with different types of fuses and materials, requiring different programming parameters. Eric From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 31 12:47:06 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:47:06 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 References: Message-ID: <8021827792C6419AB1C1B7613E954423@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 4:18 PM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Fred Jan Kraan) > 4. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 5. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Tony Duell) > 6. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Chuck Guzis) > 7. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Dave McGuire) > 8. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Dave McGuire) > 9. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 10. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Brent Hilpert) > 11. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Brent Hilpert) > 12. Fall cleaning, some small machines for free (Bob Rosenbloom) > 13. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Chuck Guzis) > 14. Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (alan canning) > 15. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Chuck Guzis) > 16. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 17. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 18. Re: Nuclear Data ND 6600 (Tony Duell) > 19. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Tony Duell) > 20. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 21. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 22. Re: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB (Tony Duell) > 23. Re: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence > of)) (Tony Duell) > 24. Re: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free (Brent Hilpert) > 25. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (ben) > 26. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Geoffrey Reed) > 27. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Tony Duell) > 28. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Chuck Guzis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:08:19 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get >> the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at >> roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data >> back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then >> I'd say you have virtual memory. > > So, your definition ties virtual memory into multi-user access? > That's not the way I learned it. > > Consider (again folks, I'm sorry for the reference) the CDC 6600 > (circa 1964). Every user is given a relocation address (called RA) > and field length (FL) as a way of partitioning main memory. Each > user's memory addressing space is kept isolated from every other's > and this fits your definiton because one user's location X was > different from every other user's location X and there was no way for > a user to tell what his RA was; i.e. each user was safely "boxed in". > > That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. Over- > committing memory meant writing/reading the entire FL of a user to > disk ("rollout" and "rollin"). > > Now consider the STAR-100 (I think it would qualify as the first > virtual memory machine of CDC), circa 1969. Every user got an > addressing space of 48 bits, but the machine itself had only > 512Kwords (64 bit) of physical storage. For production use, most of > the time the system was run in single-user mode (kept thrashing down > with large data sets). That fits my definition of VM because the > user was fooled into thinking that there was more physical memory > than there really was. > > Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was > used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file > access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. > That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector > machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather > than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:21:07 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCBF193.19364.2603DF at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the > second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? > > http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- > pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html > > I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as > counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one > furnished. > > --Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:05:06 +0200 > From: Fred Jan Kraan > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CCC5E52.9000802 at xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS >> disks and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which >> is the entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: >> >> http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG >> >> It's been sitting, covered, pretty much since I obtained it, but now I >> can try reviving it and actually seeing what it can do. I'm going to >> tear into it and clean the drives and so forth, document what it has, >> etc. and then boot 'er up and see what we can see. >> >> I'm looking for a copy of the Technical Ref manual for it; despite >> finding scans of the covers and so forth online, I'm unable to actually >> locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service >> Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to >> speed as well. >> > See > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/mirror/trs-80_archives/Manuals/Hardware/Model_II_Technical_Reference_Manual_(1980)(Radio_Shack)(pdf).zip. > The Shugart stuff should be included. > > Essential this is from a modified copy of the files that were available > from http://www.trs-80.com/ (copied without permission). >> Many thanks, >> >> Nathan >> >> > Success, > > Fred Jan > > P.S. My own adventures with the Model II: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:35:32 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC6574.8010103 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 17:26, Al Kossow wrote: >> If it's going to be an adapter, could you add holes for SA1000-style 8" >> drives (50pin/20pin cabling)? > > I almost mistook that for a floppy drive until I looked it up on > Bitsavers...! > > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the > bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: > - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock > (270982 to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what > standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The > FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. > - Two jumpers to disconnect the Timing Clock from the ST412/506 Data > connector when these are not in use (or maybe just a second connector?) > - A 50-pin connector for the SA1000 control cable > > The extra cost probably isn't worth worrying about... though I might > have to restrict drive selection to Drive 0 only in order to get enough > I/O pins for head selection. > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:47:54 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service >> Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to >> speed as well. > > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I know > 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed too > good to miss :-) > > More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for > them on bitsavers? > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:55:03 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC0797.19723.7C011E at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > >> ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I >> know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed >> too good to miss :-) > > Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz > (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've > made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be > "interesting"... > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:29:06 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC7202.6050705 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the >> bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: >> - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 >> to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what standard >> crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The FPGA's >> PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. > > You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's > overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired > frequency spot-on. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:34:25 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC7341.1090704 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file I/O > is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file I/O > into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and indeed, > most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't refer to > this sort of thing. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:58:46 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC78F6.9040004 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 20:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >> You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's >> overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired >> frequency spot-on. > > ?8.25 each with no quantity discount is *not* cheap. The FPGA only costs > a few quid more than that. > > Digikey have them for ?5.86, but that's still more than a crystal. I > wonder how the host adapters for the SA1000s generated this clock > frequency... it does seem somewhat odd. > > The other thing is, I'd be concerned about releasing hardware with > SA1000 support without testing it on an actual drive. I'm willing to bet > the chances of me finding a working SA1000 in 230V/50Hz configuration > are somewhere between 'slim' and 'nil'. > > I'll guarantee ST506 support though, given that I've got an ST277R RLL > drive and controller here. Just need an MFM controller for it, or the > RLL code tables for the Seagate ST21R or ST22R controller (which IIRC > uses an Adaptec AIC010 chip)... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:23:00 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <8534ab06c8e0281a7fcfc54d6a70efa5 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the >> second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? >> >> http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- >> pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html >> >> I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as >> counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one >> furnished. > > It's obviously a state diagram for a decade counter, my guess is > someone just screwed up making the datasheet and included the state > diagram from some other device. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:50 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >>> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >>> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >>> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >>> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >>> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. >> >> That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), >> accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden >> out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > > I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) > thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would > make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add > on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories > such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would > tell me about the new mmap function in unix. > > >> I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the >> context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> refer to this sort of thing. > > Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk > I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Rosenbloom > Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <960487.42595.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Fall cleaning! > > I have a bunch of old computers and some peripherals. Most are not tested > and I expect they may need some work to become operational, though some > may work correctly as-is. Anyway, I'm hoping to find people interested in > restoring these systems. > > There are three Burroughs B25 systems, each has a processor box, disk box, > monitor, keyboard, and power supply. There is one box of docs and > diskettes and one, very dirty, printer. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b1.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b2.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b3.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b4.jpg > > IBM convertible, an early laptop type system. > > A Computer Products portable, thermal, serial terminal. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-ptr.jpg > > A Radio Shack TRS-80 model I with expansion chassis and monitor. I believe > this has a bad power supply. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-rs.jpg > > A NEC Spinwriter terminal. This is like a Diablo daisywheel terminal > except the print element is a cylinder. I know this one needs work but > does power up. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-spin.jpg > > Some kind of cartridge tape system. I think it's SCSI interfaced. I don't > believe this has ever been used. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-tape.jpg > > A large flatbed scanner that I also believe is unused. It's SCSI > interfaced. UMAX 3000. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-scanner.jpg > > Digitech RS-232 analyzer with manuals. This runs CP/M 86 but I don't have > the boot disc for it. Does power up. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-anal.jpg > > Kaypro 2, powers up and ask for a system disk. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/kaypro1.jpg > > Hitachi pen plotter. This has a parallel interface. It powers up and works > from the front panel. Light weight. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/hitachi1.jpg > > Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg > > Nicolet Zeta 8A pen plotter. 8 pens. Also powers up and works from the > front panel. Serial interface. > > All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the Bonny > Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara where I > work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really don't want to > ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. > > Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and these > are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:39:13 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to >> > the bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: - >> > An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 >> > to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what >> > standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. >> > The FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to >> > check. >> >> You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. >> It's >> overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired >> frequency spot-on. > > Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? > Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:52:12 -0700 > From: alan canning > Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried > all > the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no > joy. > I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. > > Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and > Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power > amplifier. > > Thanks for any and all help. > > Best regards, Steven > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:54:40 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in >> the >> context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> refer to this sort of thing. > > I'm sure and I'd never seriously call it "memory-mapped I/O"--but > sometimes our world seems akin to that of Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use > a word it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less" > > Uh-oh, here comes another story... > > After I left CDC and the STAR project in 1977, my past came back to > haunt me in the form of doing an optimizing FORTRAN for the ETA-10 in > about 1983. We got a leased-line linkup to ETA in St. Paul and I > asked what text editor they were using. > > Much to my surprise, it turned out to be the same editor I'd written > for a lark around 1975 when the STAR had lots of really interesting > byte string instructions and I could exploit file-mapped I/O to use > them. Mind you, this was in the day of 16-line 1200 bps terminals. > > But the ETA-10 had none of those instructions, essentially having > evolved out of the "everything but the kitchen sink CISC" state of > mind of the original architecture. Some programmer had been detailed > off to replace all of those cool vector instructions with their > scalar equivalents! > > I was stunned and opined that with that way of thinking, the software > end of the ETA project was doomed. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:58:20 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC86EC.8040906 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 21:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? >> Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? > > They're both differential. It's just that the SA1000 expects you to feed > it a reference clock signal. It doesn't have to be locked against > write-data, it just has to be there, and be accurate to 0.1%... > > Assuming the OEM manual is accurate, of course. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:23:40 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:10, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Anyother thought I had is to use a 7447 for the lower 8 or 10 >> > patterns (as it's designed to do!) and add logic for the higher ones. >> > I don't know if that saves chips. >> >> The 7447 has a problem in that the "6" doesn't have the top crossbar, >> so that it's indistinguishable from a "b". The '247 does include the >> top segment when displaying '6', which is why I mentioned the 247 and >> not 47. > > Yes, I should have remembered that... > > >> >> This brings to mind an ancient "fix" for the 47 "6" display--a >> pulldown diode connected between segment "e" and segment "a"--in the > > Been there, done that :-) > >> display of 0-9 there is no time when segment "e" is active that >> segment "a" isn't also active. The converse, however isn't true--and >> this "fix" will mess up your display of "b" if you use the method >> described previously to display 0-F. > > Of course. For 'b' you mmed the 'e' segment without the 'a' segment. > That's what distinguishes it from '6' > > >> >> But if you allow diodes, then there's no reason not to use a 4-to-16 >> demux and a mess of diodes to do the decoding for 0-F, is there? > > while my original question didn't preclude the use of discrete > components, and while I happly ageee that the odd diodes, pull-up > resisotrs, etc can lead to interesting solutions, I do feel that such a > diode matrix is outisde the spirit of the problem. After all, you could > say it can be solved with no ICs at all, just lots of discrete > transistors, etc. :-) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:27:54 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Nuclear Data ND 6600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> eons ago at a TRW a friend bought a nice box that looked much like an >> ADM3a with nice case, integrated CRT and keyboard, and gleefully gave >> the guy selling it about $40 for it. This was in the day of $700 >> terminals new prices. >> >> It was a Vector graphics console. Unfortunately he had not looked at >> the back, or thru the cracks, but it was a plastic case with a keyboard >> and CRT inside, no PS, electronics or anything else. I suspect when he > > I am suprised there wasn't the standard driver circuits for the CRT (from > composite vidoe, say). My guess is that there should have been, and they > were msising. > >> moved east some years ago it got dumpstered, but it was about the same >> sort of thing, no brains in the "terminal" but in the box. > > ICL did something similar. They had 'terminals' that consisted of encoded > keyboards and composite monitors. The case was painted a horrible orange > colour ... I think I still have one of the keyboards somewhere, but I > mangaged to give the monitor away some years ago (thankfully...) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:07:02 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I >> > know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed >> > too good to miss :-) >> >> Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz >> (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've >> made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be >> "interesting"... > > Actaully, a lot of the 8" drives I have have 120V motors, but of course > the right pulleys for 50Hz mains. They are run from an > (auto)transformer, often the primary winding of the syatem mains > transformer. > > So I suppose he could have something like that :-) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:41:27 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 2010 Oct 29, at 2:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > For those who are wondeirng, the 'trivial' solution I mentioned uses 7 >> > off 74150 16-input multiplexers, one for each segment. You tie the >> > inputs >> > high low to determine if that segment is on or off for a given set fo 4 >> > input bits. >> > >> > After posing that, I thought of other solutions that make no >> > assumptions >> > about the segment patterns -- they always work. For example 7 off >> > 74151 8 >> > input muxes and a single inverter (1/6 of a 7404) That has the >> > advantage >> > of automatically providing actrive high and active low outputs. >> >> That only gives you 8 patterns, not 16 .. ? > > Err, no. That's what the extra inverter is for. > > You know hos to use a 2^n input mux to make an arbitrary combinartorial > function of n signals. Feed the n signals to the select inputs of the > multiplexer and wire the 'data' inputs high or low as the truth table > requires. > > But you can also yuse a 2^(n-1) input mux and maybe a single inverte, you > connect n-1 of the input lines to the select inputs of the mux. And then > for each of those combinations you consider the 2 truth table lines that > apply (the last input, the one you've not used yet, of course > distinguishes between the 2 lines in each pair). There are 4 possibilites > : > a) The output of the function is 0 in both cases (it doesn't depend on > the last input at all) --> wire that input of thr mux to ground > > b) It's 1 in both cases -> wire the input to Vcc > > c) It's 0, 1 , it follows the last input in this case -> Wire that last > input signal to the appropraite input of the multiplexer > > d) It's 1,0, it's the opposite of the last input. This is when you need > that inverter. Invert the last input signal and wire the appropriate > multiplexer input to the ouptu of the inverter. > > If oyu requre several functions of the same inputs (as here), you only > need 1 ivnerter (assumeing there are no fan-out problems), since it's > always thge same singal (say the 2^0 data input) you need to invert. > > Son yes, you can use 8 input multiplexers here (and 4 input ones if you > only want to generate 6 or 8 patterns). > > Now, another silly aside... > > If you want to use a 2^(n-2) mux, you may need any or all of the 16 > possible functions of the last 2 inputs (you split up the truth table > into sets of 4 lines, and see which function of the last 2 inputs gives > the right paattern, of course). This makes it less useful :-). But it's > made me think pof a chip that AFAIK never existed... If you think of those > 16 possible functions of 2 inputs, then 4 of them are 'trivial' in the > sense that you can produce them with no logic at all. Namely 'always 0', > 'always 1', 'equal to the A input' and 'equal to the B input'. Which > leaves 12 non-rtrivial ones/ Now that means there could have been a 16 > pin IC with 2 power pins, 2 inputs and 12 outputs, the 12 non-trivial > functions of the 2 inputs. Use that witha 74150 for an arbitrary fucntion > of 6 inputs... > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:44:22 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> > I too realised that halfway thru the exercise and went scrambling back >> > to the databook to check on the 247. >> >> Another reason to lament the passing of the hardcopy databook. I >> used to sit and read them cover-to-cover. Not really possible in > > Absolutely. Of cousre I've kept all my old paper databooks, and still > read them from time to tieme. > > Yes, it's very useful being able to get data on just about any standard > IC over the internet. But it's useful in a different way being able to > flip through a data book, see what's available, etc. I've yet to find a > manufacturer's site that lets me browse in the same way. > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:48:01 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 30/10/10 03:08, Dan Williams wrote: >> > I am on the lookout for a monitor something similar to a Phillips >> > cm3388 does anyone near London have one they would like to sell or >> > trade, or know of anywhere I could get one. >> >> Surely you mean the CM8833? >> Those were fairly extensively re-badged -- Acorn, for instance, sold a=20 >> variant of the CM8833 Mk.II as the AKF17. > > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? I think it was available as an option, > but most of them take analogue RGB on the SCART socket. > > Most of the time the SCART inputs, for all they're supposed to be 1V will > stand TTL (the CM8833 ones certainly will). Or since they're terminated > to ground through a 75 ohm resistor, connect a 300 Ohm (or so) resistor > in series with each TTL signal. Done that many times :-) > > Is there any reason a TV with a SCART socket isn't suitable? Most, if not > all, LCD and plasma TVs should haev RGB inputs on the SCART socket, for > example. > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:52:09 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence > of)) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped >> I/O = >> in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I >> can= >> 't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific >> instruc= > > The obvious problem would be if the memroy map is already totally full. > If you've got a Z80 systme with 64K of memory, it would be perverse to > try memory mapped I/O (you could have some kind of MMU, but why...). > Similarky trying to emmeroy map any kind of I/O on a 2MByte PERQ would be > an 'interesting' exercise... > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:09:44 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <981998b8f30737dece941bd3fc38a0c1 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 1:36 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >> Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. >> http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg > > I dismantled one of these a few years ago, it contained an > (NEC-branded) 8080, a whack of NEC 8255's (PIO), half-a dozen ceramic > Fujitsu MB8516's (2K*8 EPROMS, 2716-like), all socketed, for anyone > that might take an interest in such stuff. > > >> All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the >> Bonny Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara >> where I work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really >> don't want to >> ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. >> >> Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and >> these are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. >> >> Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:11:06 -0600 > From: ben > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC89EA.1000405 at jetnet.ab.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > looks for 74S188 with google > http://www.futurlec.com/Memory/74S188pr.shtml > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:17:16 -0700 > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Y'all are making me miss my tandy model 16 and 6000. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:21:08 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried >> all >> the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no >> joy. >> I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. >> >> Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and >> Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power >> amplifier. > > IIRC, this is a PROM, 32*8 I think. Do you have a copy of the data to > program into it? A blank chip is not a lot of use to you otherwise... > > Also while all the derives you've mentioned are I think compatible when > being read (that is, as they are normally used in the circuit), the > programming algorithms are different for differnet manufacturers. You need > to get one that your programmer can handle > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:18:38 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 13:52, alan canning wrote: > >> Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've >> tried all the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. >> ) with no joy. I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. >> >> Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 >> and Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF >> Power amplifier. > > If you'd like something a bit closer to home, you might try ACP-- > they're listing some IM5603s on eBay for $7.95 the each. > > --Chuck > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 > ************************************** From bqt at softjar.se Sun Oct 31 05:37:47 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:37:47 +0100 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD46FB.6070304@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 23:18, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get >> > the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at >> > roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data >> > back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then >> > I'd say you have virtual memory. > So, your definition ties virtual memory into multi-user access? > That's not the way I learned it. No no no. You miss my point. It don't directory tie in to multiuser access. It's about presenting to you a memory which in reality does not exist as you perceive it. As a follow on benefit of this is the fact that you can have multiple instances at the same time. But that is not the definition. The definition is that you appear to have a linear space of memory that maps the whole virtual address range, and that this memory is yours alone. It is your own private memory. Just as a virtual machine is your own private machine. No matter the fact that in reality, this is not the case, and your memory (or machine) is just something running under the control of an underlying operating system, which gives you this service. > Consider (again folks, I'm sorry for the reference) the CDC 6600 > (circa 1964). Every user is given a relocation address (called RA) > and field length (FL) as a way of partitioning main memory. Each > user's memory addressing space is kept isolated from every other's > and this fits your definiton because one user's location X was > different from every other user's location X and there was no way for > a user to tell what his RA was; i.e. each user was safely "boxed in". The important question here - are the programs aware of the RA register, and can they change it? And can they address the full range of memory addresses as perceived by the program. > That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. Over- > committing memory meant writing/reading the entire FL of a user to > disk ("rollout" and "rollin"). Another word for swapping in and out? Anyway, I'm not sure if this would qualify as virtual memory or not without knowing a few more details. But it might very well be virtual memory, as far as I can tell. > Now consider the STAR-100 (I think it would qualify as the first > virtual memory machine of CDC), circa 1969. Defined by whom? CDC? Or you guys? ;-) > Every user got an > addressing space of 48 bits, but the machine itself had only > 512Kwords (64 bit) of physical storage. For production use, most of > the time the system was run in single-user mode (kept thrashing down > with large data sets). That fits my definition of VM because the > user was fooled into thinking that there was more physical memory > than there really was. You know, my definition and yours don't necessarily disagree on all points. Both would define the VAX as having virtual memory (well, except for the fact that yours might not, if you have a VAX with enough physical memory). We just disagree about what when there is more physical memory than you have virtual memory space. For you, that means it can't be virtual memory. but for me it can. For me, what is relevant is whether the program is presented with his own private memory space, which contains all addresses he can address, and where all those addresses are valid and working. A memory space which he don't have to share with anyone else. That's what virtual memory is, as opposed to physical memory, which you can point at, and which all running code on a computer needs to live on. And that means that the OS is always there. And possibly other processes as well. Using the same addresses you are. If that means that you cannot have your own memory for a specific address, then it's not virtual memory. But then you probably aren't talking about virtual memory either, but physical memory. > Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was > used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file > access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. > That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector > machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather > than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. On some parts, yes. So, do the VAX not have virtual memory? After all, I can fill a VAX with more physical memory than you can address virtually. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Sun Oct 31 05:47:53 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:47:53 +0100 Subject: Memory mapped I/O In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCD4959.8040105@softjar.se> On 2010-10-30 23:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >>> >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >>> >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >>> >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >>> >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >>> >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. >> > >> > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), >> > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden >> > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) > thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would > make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add > on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories > such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would > tell me about the new mmap function in unix. This might very well be totally wrong, but I remember hearing about it at the time, that Sun (who I believe was the ones to first implement mmap()) bascially took the whole TOPS-20 concept and translated it to Unix. A bit surprised no TOPS-20 hackers have spoken up yet... This was around for a long time on the PDP-10 before this. Not sure how it correlates timewise to CDC and the STAR though. But no matter if Unix took it from TOPS-20 or not, there is no denying that TOPS-20 had this a long time before it came to Unix. >> > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the >> > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> > I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> > I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> > indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> > refer to this sort of thing. > Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk > I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. Memory mapped files are kindof neat, but it's not I/O at all in one way. After all, all you do is just leave the actual I/O to the virtual memory system instead of doing it yourself. So it's not that the I/O is done in any different way, it's just initiated by someone else. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ohh at panix.com Sun Oct 31 13:22:35 2010 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. Just to mke sure I'm hearing you right: Are you saying one individual core is 100% dead, and everything else is 100% okay? If so - if it's one single, individual core which is broken - I'd suspect this is pretty much irrepairable. The options would be to A) try to form/mold/create a new ferrite core around the wires, which would be insanely difficult assuming it could be done at all, or B) to unwire that plane of the core stack, replace the broken ferrite core with a new one, and then rethread/rewire it. That's extremely nontrivial work, I have to believe. But they were originally threaded by hand, albeit by people with microscopes and _very_ good eye-hand coordination and sewing skills, so it's within the realm of possibility. If I've read you wrong, though, and the whole thing is working except address 0 bit 3 is working _some_ of the time, that would be really good news. :) You could try scoping out the sense amps and inhibit drivers for bit 3 and see if they were just borderline to specifications, something which might be just tweaky enough to affect one bit. > The other stack seems to be a total loss : > 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. Of > course the further quality of the cores is unknown. Oddly enough, this one might be easier to deal with. Have you tracked down where the sense wires go open-circuit? If they're failing at a solder-joint near an outer edge, you could potentially repair them without having to open up the whole damn stack. The diode replacement would likely mean partially disassembling the stack assembly to gain access to both sides of the diode PCB, but at least you're only having to dig in one level. O'course making those repairs might simply reveal more problems at the core level. But you've gotta start somewhere, I s'pose. :) > Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of these > ? > > Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK stack would > seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be on a edge of a > core mat. I suspect I'm not the only one on the list who: -thinks opening up a core-stack and repairing it is theoretically possible; -also thinks it would be a hell of a daunting project; -is somewhat amazed at the dexterity and patience of the people who originally hand-wired them at manufacture; and -thinks pulling off a repair of a core-plane by rewiring it by hand would give significant bragging rights. :) -O.- From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Oct 31 13:51:51 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, O. Sharp wrote: > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) > From: O. Sharp > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Repairing core memories.... > > > On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: >> >> One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... >> Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. > > Just to mke sure I'm hearing you right: Are you saying one individual core is > 100% dead, and everything else is 100% okay? If so - if it's one single, > individual core which is broken - I'd suspect this is pretty much > irrepairable. The options would be to A) try to form/mold/create a new > ferrite core around the wires, which would be insanely difficult assuming it > could be done at all, or B) to unwire that plane of the core stack, replace > the broken ferrite core with a new one, and then rethread/rewire it. That's > extremely nontrivial work, I have to believe. But they were originally > threaded by hand, albeit by people with microscopes and _very_ good eye-hand > coordination and sewing skills, so it's within the realm of possibility. > > If I've read you wrong, though, and the whole thing is working except address > 0 bit 3 is working _some_ of the time, that would be really good news. :) > You could try scoping out the sense amps and inhibit drivers for bit 3 and > see if they were just borderline to specifications, something which might be > just tweaky enough to affect one bit. > >> The other stack seems to be a total loss : >> 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. Of >> course the further quality of the cores is unknown. > > Oddly enough, this one might be easier to deal with. Have you tracked down > where the sense wires go open-circuit? If they're failing at a solder-joint > near an outer edge, you could potentially repair them without having to open > up the whole damn stack. The diode replacement would likely mean partially > disassembling the stack assembly to gain access to both sides of the diode > PCB, but at least you're only having to dig in one level. > > O'course making those repairs might simply reveal more problems at the core > level. But you've gotta start somewhere, I s'pose. :) > >> Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of >> these ? >> >> Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK stack >> would seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be on a edge >> of a core mat. > > I suspect I'm not the only one on the list who: > -thinks opening up a core-stack and repairing it is > theoretically possible; > -also thinks it would be a hell of a daunting project; > -is somewhat amazed at the dexterity and patience of the people > who originally hand-wired them at manufacture; and > -thinks pulling off a repair of a core-plane by rewiring it by > hand would give significant bragging rights. :) > > -O.- > If you look at core planes, many have repairs visable in even in "new" planes, probably ones that failed margin tests. I looks like the way cores in the middle of the mat are replaced is by snipping a bit of the drive and sense wires a couple of cores away from the faulty core, replacing the core and threading in a bit of new wire for the drive and sense lines, with enough slack to solder the splices above the plane. You can see the little splices in many core planes (usually covered with a tiny drop of glytol or some such) Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 13:28:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:28:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Oct 31, 10 12:00:13 pm Message-ID: > > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. > > The other stack seems to be a total loss : > 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. > Of course the further quality of the cores is unknown. > > Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out > of these ? > > Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK > stack would seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be >L on a edge of a core mat. Its likely to be, I guess, but I wouldn't bet much on the physuical layout of the core plane. In any case the sense and inhibit lines are going to run through a lot of cores, so you'll have to remove and replace those I think. I have never tried to repari core memory (otehr than the drive electronics), and I believe that fore some later core memoryies, the cors were cast around the wiees after the wires had been laid out, so you can't untrhead and retrhead that type. But older ones were made by threading wires trhoug hthe cores, so it may be possible. What I would do is practice on the totally dead plane. See if you can remove the wires, take a core out, and then thread the wires back again. When you get good at doing that, then have a go at fixing the almost-good one -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 13:34:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Oct 31, 10 11:02:15 am Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? > > It depends -- there were lots of variants of the 8833 with different > input options. I've owned three: a Philips-branded one that has analogue > RGB on a DE9, a Commodore 1084S which has separate DINs for analogue and > TTL RGB, and the Acorn equivalent which has a SCART connector. That's what I thought. I beleive there was also a version with a built-in PAL decoder (composite colour video input), As an aside, therw was a PAL-input (internal decoder) version of the Microvitec Cub too. > > The 1084S at least is perfectly happy to accept TTL RGB on its analogue > RGB input, as you suggest; I use mine that way with my BBC Micros Indeed. I normally put a 300 ohm resisotr in series with each TTL signal, given the 75 ohm terminatiuons,that brings 5V signalsdown to 1V. > (having made up the cable when I didn't have the right DIN plug for the > TTL input!). They're really nice monitors, aside from the tendency of Not for this model of monitor, but once when I didn't have the right plug to hand, I pulled the case and temporarily soldered the wires straight to th PCB. > the flap covering the controls to fall off and get lost. The 1084S > seemed quite expensive in 1990, but given that it's still in regular use > 20 years later, I'm not going to complain. ;-) Actuially I think mine has a vertical deflection fault at the moment (I've not used it for soem time). I have the schematics, it can't be hard to sort out. > > What I'd really like is a nice big old broadcast-quality RGB monitor to > use with classic computers and laserdisc/video, but I'm not too hopeful > about one coming up locally (Dundee), and I wouldn't want to ship one... You're not gettign mine :-). I have an old (delta gun CRT...) Barco complete with the 'user manual'. That manual has one page telling you how to use the brightness and gain (contrast) controls, a couple of pages explaining how to mount it in a rack, and lots of pages of scheamatics, alightment data, waveforms, etc. Amd yes the manual does make reference to 'studio use'. Analogue RGB inputs on BNC sockets, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 13:12:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:12:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 firsts? In-Reply-To: <4CCBFEF1.80602@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Oct 30, 10 01:18:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010-10-30 01:12, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > >> > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as > >> > possible firsts on the PDP-11. > >> > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? > >> > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally > >> > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? > > The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). > > Could you use it like any other register? There were some restrictions. I don't think you could shift it (at least ont on the P850). But for many instructions it was just another register. > > > There are 16 registers, some instructions can only use the first 8, others > > can use all 16. Addressing modes (simpler than the PDP11, I admit) are > > pretty much orthogonal. > > Sounds like the registers were atleast not as orthogonally used as on a > PDP-11. If an instruction could take a register, it could take any > register. And all addressing modes are valid (well, almost) anywhere. I think all P800 instructions that had addressing modes could use any addressing mode. Any instruction with 4-bit register fields could use any register. Any instruction with a 3 bit register field could use any of the first 8 registers. And IIRC, like the PDP11, the addressing modes commonly known as 'immediate' and 'absolute' were a couple of the other addressing modes with the register specified as 0 (=PC, of course). I guess the P800 wasn't totally ortogonal but it was a lot more orthogonal than many other machines. > One wonderful thing about the PDP-11, which unfortunately did not get > copied, was the nice things that happened because the PC was e general > register. Thus, the PDP-11 never had special versions of instructions to > implement immediate mode operands, and so on. All that was solved > because the PC was a general register. > (Well, the VAX sortof have it, but no other machine I know of.) As I just mentioned, the P800 family did it this way too. > > What do you mean by condition codes here? > > The four low bits of PSW. Err... I don;t think that's helpful. Quite a lot of machines with a status register have a 'low 4 bits' of it :-). But that doens't make them condition codes. Similarly uf you hapopen to implement the same functionality using other bits of a status registers, doesn't that make them condition codes? What I was asking was what fucntionality do you require of these condtiion codes other than there being conditional jumps on carry, zero, etc? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 13:15:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:15:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: <4CCC8F71.2090409@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Oct 30, 10 10:34:41 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? > > I think so; there's an 8-pin DIN socket on mine that takes RGB > video at TTL levels. Works directly from, say, a BBC Micro. It > also has a SCART socket for analog RGB and composite. Ah... My Acorn-badges Philips monitor just has the SCART socket. The PCB is layed out for the DIN socket and asociated componets, but they're not fitted. I assumeed (probably wrongly) that some Philips-badged ones were analogue-only too. H0wever, it's not hard to feed TTL video int othe SCART socket with a few series resistors ;-)) What does the OP (Liam?) want to use the monuitor with? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 13:50:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:50:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 10 10:11:39 am Message-ID: > > I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but > > not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? > > They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they > changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to > TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're > 471s under the hood. But I didn't think the National (DM74xxx) and Texas (SN74xxx) programming algorithms were the same. I also seem to remember that at least one manufactuerer changed the programming algorithm for their fusible link pats at one point, probably accompanied by a change in part number. They all read the same way, of course. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 14:08:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:08:17 -0700 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CCD46FB.6070304@softjar.se> References: , <4CCD46FB.6070304@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CCD5C31.2323.7A0FEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 11:37, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The important question here - are the programs aware of the RA > register, and can they change it? And can they address the full range > of memory addresses as perceived by the program. No they aren't. Their memory exists from 0 to whatever the field length is, physically and continously. If they need more, a system request can expand their field length provided the system has sufficient physical memory to accommodate them. There is no way (absent perhaps a system request to get that information) for a program to know its real physical base address. > Another word for swapping in and out? But much older and specific to the architecture and not done in pieces as a tranditional VM swap file would be. I'll take the coward's way out and use the dictionary here: "1. Existing or resulting in essence or effect though not in actual fact, form, or name" So my definiton of "fooling the user into thinking he has more physical memory than he actually has" is certainly valid. And the VAX sense is also true, but only if one takes along with it the ability to over-commit memory space such that the amount of addressable memory (i.e. the sum of all users' memory) is greater than the physical memory present. A single task running on a VAX with at least as much physical memory as addressing space would not be using the virtual memory facility-- every bit is reflected in the presence of real memory. But then, we fall on marshy ground again, when we consider the old "roll/swap" multiuser situation. I can run 8 jobs, each requiring 65K of memory on a system with 128K physical memory, simply by selecting when I give each a time slice and swapping/rolling them out as needed. So is that virtual? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 14:12:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:12:53 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, , Message-ID: <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com> I have a vivid memory of an IBM CE holding a broomstick with a magnet on the end of it fishing out bits of fractured core out of the oil- immersed memory of a 7090... :) "Check the oil" was part of routine maintenance on that old iron. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 14:23:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:23:54 -0700 Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 10 10:11:39 am, Message-ID: <4CCD5FDA.26319.8859E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 18:50, Tony Duell wrote: > But I didn't think the National (DM74xxx) and Texas (SN74xxx) > programming algorithms were the same. I also seem to remember that at > least one manufactuerer changed the programming algorithm for their > fusible link pats at one point, probably accompanied by a change in > part number. They all read the same way, of course. Okay, I went and dug through my tubes of ICs and found them. They're TI TBP18S22N units. I don't know how the programming compares with the National parts. I'm going to have to itemize the stuff in my hellbox one of these days... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 15:03:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:03:38 -0400 Subject: Dec Power conditioner In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20101030192142.0249f418@verizon.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20101030192142.0249f418@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CCDCB9A.7060402@neurotica.com> On 10/30/10 7:32 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > Just saw this on Ebay, don't think I've ever seen one before. > > Digital model H7226-KC CVC, Constant Voltage Conditioner 290487489386 > > Wanted to remind everyone that Christmas is right around the corner and > this little stocking stuffer is perfect for that man with the Vax > 750/780 in the basement. I've not seen one of those either. I'll bet that weighs a ton! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 14:55:38 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:55:38 -0200 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB References: Message-ID: <059901cb7936$a0ed9230$6600a8c0@portajara> > I assumeed (probably wrongly) that some Philips-badged ones were > analogue-only too. No, the CM8333 (or 8833, don't remember) had provision for analog rgb, digital rgb and composite video. The ones with stereo input, IINM, had also s-video (croma/luma separated inputs) too From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 15:06:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:06:16 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 1:24 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. >> >> ...unless you want to use it for real work of course. (referencing >> "older", not OpenBSD) > > We have a production system still running Solaris 2.6 at work. I was > thinking along the lines of the older the OS, the less cruft, and the > better on the older hardware. Certainly a good point. I'd not draw that line at the Ultra60, though, because (as you know) they can be reasonably zippy if well-provisioned. Ultra30s, Ultra1s, the previous 32-bit SPARCs, definitely. (NetBSD hauls ass on those!) > For the past few years I've typically run > Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. Myself, at this point I can't imagine running a network without Zones and ZFS. They've both pretty dramatically changed the way I build networks. Solaris 10 all the way, for me! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 15:49:33 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:49:33 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <053801cb7924$2451b830$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara><4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com > <053801cb7924$2451b830$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: At 3:34 PM -0200 10/31/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > My impossible dream is to get a SGI machine. Any of them. There >is an Ozone (or something like) in a surplus seller I know, but he >asks just too much money for it. Someday I'll get one :oD It is a >pride and joy for me to have a SGI machine on my desk :oD While my one is the slowest O2 they made, the other is a really nice one. I lucked out and got an R12k/270 for a fraction of what they were going for. I'd *REALLY* like a nice Octane 2, but I can't justify the cost, even with how much they've dropped. You might look into the Indigo 2's. Also, if you know you're going to get one at some point, keep an eye out for the OS CD's, they are hard to get. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 15:55:06 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:55:06 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Certainly a good point. I'd not draw that line at the Ultra60, >though, because (as you know) they can be reasonably zippy if >well-provisioned. Ultra30s, Ultra1s, the previous 32-bit SPARCs, >definitely. (NetBSD hauls ass on those!) I've never actually touched an Ultra 30, in fact I don't think I've ever seen one. I'd love a nice Ultra 1E/200 for OpenBSD, I imagine it would rock on it. It's pretty nice on a Sparc 5/70. The nice thing about OpenBSD is it's pretty light on RAM usage. I like running on S-Bus systems as I have a bunch of 4-port 100Mbit cards. Plus they squeeze into a small space. >>For the past few years I've typically run >>Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. > > Myself, at this point I can't imagine running a network without >Zones and ZFS. They've both pretty dramatically changed the way I >build networks. Solaris 10 all the way, for me! I've run 10 at home briefly, but for the most part at work we stopped at 8, with a few systems running 9. Now we're mostly Linux & Windows. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 15:49:55 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:49:55 -0200 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05f901cb793f$beef1070$6600a8c0@portajara> > Certainly a good point. I'd not draw that line at the Ultra60, though, > because (as you know) they can be reasonably zippy if well-provisioned. > Ultra30s, Ultra1s, the previous 32-bit SPARCs, definitely. (NetBSD hauls > ass on those!) And mine would zip even more with 450MHz processors and more memory :o) :o) :o) >> For the past few years I've typically run >> Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. I'm curious to see solaris working (and it may even be installed on it). What version of Solaris would be well suited for this machine, providing I want to do something with it (maybe file serving, web browsing, crazy penetration tests, whatever)? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 16:05:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:05:04 -0200 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05fa01cb793f$c1a4e1a0$6600a8c0@portajara> BTW, is there any list I can talk about sparc hardware/software? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 16:11:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:11:52 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CCDDB98.7070105@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 4:55 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've never actually touched an Ultra 30, in fact I don't think I've ever > seen one. I've had a few. Basically uniprocessor Ultra60s with significantly limited CPU module compatibility. Oh, and they only have one UPA framebuffer slot, not two like the Ultra60. Basically a sadly lobotomized Ultra60. > I'd love a nice Ultra 1E/200 for OpenBSD, I imagine it would > rock on it. It's pretty nice on a Sparc 5/70. The nice thing about > OpenBSD is it's pretty light on RAM usage. I like running on S-Bus > systems as I have a bunch of 4-port 100Mbit cards. Plus they squeeze > into a small space. Yes, they are impressively compact. The BSDs really do fly on those machines. I'm deploying lots of Netra X1s (400 & 500MHz UltraSPARC-IIe) at customer sites these days as firewall/VPN endpoint machines, running NetBSD from nifty little 1GB SSDs that plug right into the ATA connector on the board. > I've run 10 at home briefly, but for the most part at work we stopped at > 8, with a few systems running 9. Now we're mostly Linux & Windows. :-( Eeeek. Time to move. ;) (though Linux certainly has grown up in recent years...I can't really complain about it now) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julian at jnt.me.uk Sun Oct 31 16:11:59 2010 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:11:59 +0000 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <05fa01cb793f$c1a4e1a0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> <05fa01cb793f$c1a4e1a0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CCDDB9F.70009@jnt.me.uk> On 31/10/2010 21:05, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > BTW, is there any list I can talk about sparc hardware/software? > The 'Suns at Home Mailing List' - http://www.net-kitchen.com/~sah/ Julian From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 16:16:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:16:00 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <05fa01cb793f$c1a4e1a0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> <05fa01cb793f$c1a4e1a0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CCDDC90.2080602@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 5:05 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > BTW, is there any list I can talk about sparc hardware/software? The SunHelp list, run by Bill Bradford, is a good one: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/sunhelp I'm not on that list, but I've lived and breathed Sun hardware for a long time, and I'm happy to help you if you get stuck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 31 16:19:25 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:19:25 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <053801cb7924$2451b830$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On 10/31/10 10:34 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> Sun HW and a couple SGI O2's are the only real exceptions to my rule about >> not collecting UNIX HW. I used the Suns a lot as general purpose >> workstations and servers at home. Either running Solaris, or OpenBSD. > > My impossible dream is to get a SGI machine. Any of them. There is an > Ozone (or something like) in a surplus seller I know, but he asks just too > much money for it. Someday I'll get one :oD It is a pride and joy for me to > have a SGI machine on my desk :oD I have a SGI, but currently no keyboard or monitor for it (or adapter) and it needs drive sleds so I can put drives in it. It is shaped like a slightly melted tower case. And I think it is purple (haven't seen it in > 6 months) the previous owner had put cardboard into the drive bays and put the drives on that, IIRC the drives suffered heat death. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 31 16:24:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:24:13 -0400 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <05f901cb793f$beef1070$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> <05f901cb793f$beef1070$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CCDDE7D.8070708@neurotica.com> On 10/31/10 4:49 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Certainly a good point. I'd not draw that line at the Ultra60, though, >> because (as you know) they can be reasonably zippy if >> well-provisioned. Ultra30s, Ultra1s, the previous 32-bit SPARCs, >> definitely. (NetBSD hauls ass on those!) > > And mine would zip even more with 450MHz processors and more memory :o) > :o) :o) Yes. For real-world workloads, they're about the equivalent of maybe 1-1.2GHz x86 CPUs. >>> For the past few years I've typically run >>> Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. > > I'm curious to see solaris working (and it may even be installed on it). > What version of Solaris would be well suited for this machine, providing > I want to do something with it (maybe file serving, web browsing, crazy > penetration tests, whatever)? I'd recommend sticking with the latest, Solaris 10, 9/10 release. That machine will run it happily, and you'll be running cutting-edge, extremely high-tech UNIX. These machines are much better at being servers than at being workstations, but you'll do fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 16:48:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:48:10 -0700 Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCD81AA.32730.10C7056@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 10:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > All, > > > > I'm trying to evaluate a pile of large MFM hard drives for > > functionality. I'm attaching them to a WD-1006V-MM2 controller and > > running Sprinrite 4 under DOS 6.0 (using a 486 EISA motherboard). > > > > This works fine for drives with < 1024 cylinders, but I cannot seem > > to remember (or figure out) how to surface-test drives with more > > cylinders (e.g. Priam V185 with 1166). > > The convention when the cylinder field overflows 10 bits is to use the > two high-order bits of the head field (that's why MFM, and for that > matter, IDE drives max out at 64 heads when non-LBA geometry is > used.). I'll add that I was talking about the BIOS interface here. Some BIOSes support this, such as the WD1006V-SR2 RLL controller. But your MM2, I believe, has no on-board BIOS, so it probably doesn't. If you'd like, I've got the source for a DOS driver that I wrote that handles cylinders 1024-1223 as a separate logical drive. It might give you some clues as to how to work with this situation. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 17:10:01 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:10:01 -0700 Subject: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 In-Reply-To: <4CCDDB98.7070105@neurotica.com> References: <019301cb78e7$d6adbd40$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CCD93F3.9020104@neurotica.com> <4CCDA527.1050903@neurotica.com> <4CCDCC38.7010004@neurotica.com> <4CCDDB98.7070105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 5:11 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've had a few. Basically uniprocessor Ultra60s with >significantly limited CPU module compatibility. Oh, and they only >have one UPA framebuffer slot, not two like the Ultra60. Basically >a sadly lobotomized Ultra60. Oh! Nice! That would actually make a good OpenBSD box, as far as I know, it still isn't supporting a 2nd CPU on Sparc and UltraSparc. > Yes, they are impressively compact. The BSDs really do fly on >those machines. I'm deploying lots of Netra X1s (400 & 500MHz >UltraSPARC-IIe) at customer sites these days as firewall/VPN >endpoint machines, running NetBSD from nifty little 1GB SSDs that >plug right into the ATA connector on the board. That's handy. >>I've run 10 at home briefly, but for the most part at work we stopped at >>8, with a few systems running 9. Now we're mostly Linux & Windows. :-( > > Eeeek. Time to move. ;) (though Linux certainly has grown up in >recent years...I can't really complain about it now) Not my call, for us Solaris is a legacy platform. :-( These days I'm doing good to dabble occasionally with a Linux box. Helps I'm basically the only one in my group with UNIX experience. That means I get called in for unusual problems. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 31 18:27:00 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:27:00 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 71 References: Message-ID: <491027DAB2FF43328CC285059C2525E2@vl420mt> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:47:06 -0500 From: "MikeS" Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 ----------------- Sorry about that (sending the digest); no idea how that got sent, will make sure it doesn't happen again. Humbly apologetic, mike From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 18:01:18 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:01:18 -0700 Subject: Memory mapped I/O In-Reply-To: <4CCD4959.8040105@softjar.se> References: <4CCD4959.8040105@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 3:47 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2010-10-30 23:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >>>> >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so >>>> file >>>> >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >>>> >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >>>> >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, >>>> rather >>>> >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. >>>> >>> > >>> > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), >>> > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden >>> > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. >>> >> I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) >> thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would >> make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add >> on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories >> such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would >> tell me about the new mmap function in unix. >> > > This might very well be totally wrong, but I remember hearing about it at > the time, that Sun (who I believe was the ones to first implement mmap()) > bascially took the whole TOPS-20 concept and translated it to Unix. A bit > surprised no TOPS-20 hackers have spoken up yet... This was around for a > long time on the PDP-10 before this. > Not sure how it correlates timewise to CDC and the STAR though. > > But no matter if Unix took it from TOPS-20 or not, there is no denying that > TOPS-20 had this a long time before it came to Unix. > > > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in >>> the >>> > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >>> > I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >>> > I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >>> > indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >>> > refer to this sort of thing. >>> >> Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk >> I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. >> > > Memory mapped files are kindof neat, but it's not I/O at all in one way. > After all, all you do is just leave the actual I/O to the virtual memory > system instead of doing it yourself. So it's not that the I/O is done in any > different way, it's just initiated by someone else. > > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > At Hughes we did an 8085 FORTH based system with memory mapped I/O in 1979. A block of 256 addresses had an 8741 hanging at each address and an 1802 hanging off of the 8741s. Fun stuff. Best regards, Steven From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 18:02:38 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:02:38 +0000 Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: References: <4CCC8F71.2090409@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On 31 October 2010 18:15, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > Is ?CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? >> >> I think so; there's an 8-pin DIN socket on mine that takes RGB >> video at TTL levels. Works directly from, say, a BBC Micro. It >> also has a SCART socket for analog RGB and composite. > > Ah... My Acorn-badges Philips monitor just has the SCART socket. The PCB > is layed out for the DIN socket and asociated componets, but they're not > fitted. > > I assumeed (probably wrongly) that some Philips-badged ones were > analogue-only too. > > H0wever, it's not hard to feed TTL video int othe SCART socket with a few > series resistors ;-)) > > What does the OP (Liam?) want to use the monuitor with? > > -tony > I wanted something I can use on a few machines, mainly I wanted some Colour on a RM Nimbus, but should work ok on the 480Z as well Dan From chd at chdickman.com Sun Oct 31 18:12:29 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:12:29 -0400 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a vivid memory of an IBM CE holding a broomstick with a magnet > on the end of it fishing out bits of fractured core out of the oil- > immersed memory of a 7090... :) > > "Check the oil" was part of routine maintenance on that old iron. > > --Chuck > > > So how does a single core fail? A crack I guess. Maybe overheating that could change the characteristics of the core materials. -chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 18:44:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:44:04 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCD9CD4.23319.1768A24@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 19:12, Charles Dickman wrote: > So how does a single core fail? A crack I guess. Maybe overheating > that could change the characteristics of the core materials. That was my understanding--and the reason that core was in an oil bath to start with. I vaguely recall something related about the CDC 7600, where it was possible to write pathological code that would repeatedly hit the same bank of core (core, even on the PPUs was interleaved, but it was very fast--for the time--27.5nsec core) and cause said core to overheat and the machine to throw parity errors. The solution was to integrate the frequency of bank accesses and slow the system down if they became too frequent. I don't recall how it was done, however. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 31 21:06:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:06:06 -0700 Subject: 8" winchester drive clock rates (was Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode!) In-Reply-To: <4CCC86EC.8040906@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>, <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk>, <4CCC7202.6050705@neurotica.com> <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCC86EC.8040906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCE208E.5060307@bitsavers.org> On 10/30/10 1:58 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > They're both differential. It's just that the SA1000 expects you to feed it a reference clock signal. It doesn't have to be locked against write-data, it just has to be there, and be accurate to 0.1%... > > Assuming the OEM manual is accurate, of course. > It's used for the head stepping circuit on the SA1000 (schems in the svc manual) I'm trying to figure out what the SA4000 expects. It seems to be a 140ns clock. The main thing I need this for is recovering some PERQ data. Just found the 4000 service manual, will have that on bitsavers soon. Looking at the schematics, the Quantum 2000 series doesn't use it at all. Most of my Xerox 8010 drives are from Quantum I don't seem to have any docs for the Micropolis 8" drives. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 31 21:29:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:57 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, , Message-ID: > From: pcw at mesanet.com ---snip--- > > > > If you look at core planes, many have repairs visable in even in "new" planes, > probably ones that failed margin tests. I looks like the way cores in the > middle of the mat are replaced is by snipping a bit of the drive and sense > wires a couple of cores away from the faulty core, replacing the core and > threading in a bit of new wire for the drive and sense lines, with enough > slack to solder the splices above the plane. You can see the little splices in > many core planes (usually covered with a tiny drop of glytol or some such) > > > Peter Wallace > Another method I've seen is that the repairs are made only at the edge. There would be a number of solder points at the edge of the frame for this. If something got damaged in the center, it was unstrung to the edge and new wire soldered on. For some applications they were allowed only so many repairs per plane. The problem I see is if the plain has been coated, there is not an easy way to repair them. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 21:45:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:45:06 -0700 Subject: 8" winchester drive clock rates (was Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode!) In-Reply-To: <4CCE208E.5060307@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>, <4CCC86EC.8040906@philpem.me.uk>, <4CCE208E.5060307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CCDC742.2798.21C496A@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 19:06, Al Kossow wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what the SA4000 expects. It seems to be a > 140ns clock. The main thing I need this for is recovering some PERQ > data. Just found the 4000 service manual, will have that on bitsavers > soon. If you need a check, I've got a working SA4008 with controller set up here. It'll take a little digging with a long-shaft Torx driver to get into it, so give me a little warning. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 22:43:15 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:43:15 -0500 Subject: VCFMW Pics and Shirts In-Reply-To: <008c01cb7896$cf079800$bafdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <008c01cb7896$cf079800$bafdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > I know I'm replying a month (and a bit!) after you posted your message, but > was wondering if you have any left in size L? I do indeed! This *should be* the current remaining stock. I'll email you direct and we can work out shipping: Blue M xx 2 Black XXL xxxxxxxx 8 Black M x 1 Black L xxxxxxxxx 9 Blue XXL xxx 3 Blue XXXL xx 2 -- jht From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 22:48:12 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:48:12 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:02 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:52 AM, Vincent Slyngstad < >> v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote: >> >>> From: "Brent Hilpert": Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:55 PM >>> >>> OK, I claim three solutions: >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> only 4 chips ;) >> 74138 >> 74247 >> 7407 >> 7403 >> and 4 pullups >> >> > little typo - early in the morning you know > 7403 should be 7409 -- gotta love that Negative Logic ;) > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >> only 4 chips ;) >>> 74138 >>> 74247 >>> 7407 >>> 7403 >>> and 4 pullups >>> >> >> OK, I admit that I'm not seeing it. >> >> Are you using the funky 247 outputs for 10-15? Or are you disabling the >> 247 somehow (wouldn't that require an inverter from somewhere)? >> >> Vince >> >> (I have attached my schematic, in case you are interested.) > > > 4 chip solution, 74247, 74138, 7407, 4066 No rule against using diodes ;) http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/files/schematics/hexdec/hexdecoder1a.jpg You have to take the ol' "ouside the box" approach. I call it the Kobayashi Maru hack ;) Since the '247 already provides 15 decodes already, I just tweak the ouputs for A-F I use the lowercase 'c' since it saves a chip versus a uppercase 'C' eh-hem, and don't let programmers design hardware :D =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Oct 31 23:10:59 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:10:59 -0500 Subject: manual for M9312 bootstrap module Message-ID: <17B69121F684475DB59A2D9DAACF08CE@obie> Can anyone provide an electronic copy (or link) to the DEC publication, EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual? The previous link at http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/unfinished/ no longer seems to work. Thanks, Jack From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 23:17:25 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 00:17:25 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service > > Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to > > speed as well. > > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I know > 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed too > good to miss :-) > > More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for > them on bitsavers? > > - > > the two I have has the 800-2 drive, 115v 60hz It's on Bitsavers, that's where I found it for mine. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 23:28:30 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 05:28:30 +0100 Subject: manual for M9312 bootstrap module In-Reply-To: <17B69121F684475DB59A2D9DAACF08CE@obie> References: <17B69121F684475DB59A2D9DAACF08CE@obie> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 05:10, Jack Rubin wrote: > Can anyone provide an electronic copy (or link) to the DEC publication, > EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual? The > previous link at http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/unfinished/ no > longer > seems to work. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf ? Thanks, > Jack > > -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 31 23:31:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:31:57 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 23:48, Dan Roganti wrote: > 4 chip solution, 74247, 74138, 7407, 4066 > No rule against using diodes ;) > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/files/schematics/hexdec/hexdec > oder1a.jpg If there's no rule against diodes, then there's a 1-chip solution--a 74154 feeding a diode matrix. Indeed, as I mentioned, there are even diode arrays with 74xxx part numbers. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 23:40:02 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 00:40:02 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 23:48, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > 4 chip solution, 74247, 74138, 7407, 4066 > > No rule against using diodes ;) > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/files/schematics/hexdec/hexdec > > oder1a.jpg > > If there's no rule against diodes, then there's a 1-chip solution--a > 74154 feeding a diode matrix. that's too obvious ;) rube goldberg would not be proud > Indeed, as I mentioned, there are even > diode arrays with 74xxx part numbers. > > but that's going over 16pins :) =Dan From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 15:03:00 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> All, >> >> I'm trying to evaluate a pile of large MFM hard drives for >> functionality. I'm attaching them to a WD-1006V-MM2 controller and >> running Sprinrite 4 under DOS 6.0 (using a 486 EISA motherboard). >> >> This works fine for drives with < 1024 cylinders, but I cannot seem to >> remember (or figure out) how to surface-test drives with more >> cylinders (e.g. Priam V185 with 1166). > > The convention when the cylinder field overflows 10 bits is to use > the two high-order bits of the head field (that's why MFM, and for > that matter, IDE drives max out at 64 heads when non-LBA geometry is > used.). Ok, but I still need to know the procedure and appropriate utility to surface-test the drives. The mapping you describe appears to be a low-level notion that is not mapped to anything in DOS fdisk and/or Spinrite. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 15:06:18 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but >>> not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? >> >> They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they >> changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to >> TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're >> 471s under the hood. > > But I didn't think the National (DM74xxx) and Texas (SN74xxx) programming > algorithms were the same. I also seem to remember that at least one > manufactuerer changed the programming algorithm for their fusible link > pats at one point, probably accompanied by a change in part number. They > all read the same way, of course. My Andromeda PROM programmer adapter calls out a slightly different Vpp and pulse-width for some of the part families. -- From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Oct 31 16:52:48 2010 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:52:48 +0100 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2280ECC400CD4B5B99D31AE0F2917121@mars> Hi, Please let me know any outcome of this project, I also have some stacks, 8/L and 8/e of unknown condition and would be some day in the situation to start repair. Thanks a lot, and much success!! With best regards Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Oktober 2010 19:37 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 71 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Chuck Guzis) 2. Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 (Zane H. Healy) 3. Re: Large geometry MFM drive testing (Chuck Guzis) 4. Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 (Dave McGuire) 5. Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 (Zane H. Healy) 6. Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 7. Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 8. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Alexandre Souza - Listas) 9. Re: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Chuck Guzis) 10. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Eric Smith) 11. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 (MikeS) 12. Re: Virtual memory (Johnny Billquist) 13. Re: Memory mapped I/O (Johnny Billquist) 14. Re: Repairing core memories.... (O. Sharp) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:11:39 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4CCD40DB.19611.F4760 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:28, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these > > things. ?I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them. > > > I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but > not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're 471s under the hood. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:12:31 -0700 From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , General Discussion: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:06 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 10/31/10 6:35 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) > > WAY off-topic. Some of us would debate that. I personally think the Ultra 2 and the Ultra 60 as two of Sun's greatest machines. They're practical to own, and take processors that will make them fairly useful. I'm also pretty fond of Sparc 20's. My Ultra 60 has dual 450Mhz CPU's, it's far more practical than my SunBlade 1000 (to much electricity used, and heat generated). My only problem is I've never gotten a Copper GigE card. >>Just got one (eee!!!), > > Cool! Agreed! >>now what to do with that? > > Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point math. One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. >>I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( > > Problem solved; I'll put a set in the box I'm packing up for you. Cool! In the mean time plug in a serial terminal. The Ultra 60 is one of the few Suns I've ever used a keyboard and mouse on, though I typically used a PS/2 keyboard an mouse on mine. I have a Sun adapter that allows that, and it works with a KVM. I've not gotten any of my Sun HW set back up since we bought our house. Sun HW and a couple SGI O2's are the only real exceptions to my rule about not collecting UNIX HW. I used the Suns a lot as general purpose workstations and servers at home. Either running Solaris, or OpenBSD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:15:01 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Large geometry MFM drive testing To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > All, > > I'm trying to evaluate a pile of large MFM hard drives for > functionality. I'm attaching them to a WD-1006V-MM2 controller and > running Sprinrite 4 under DOS 6.0 (using a 486 EISA motherboard). > > This works fine for drives with < 1024 cylinders, but I cannot seem to > remember (or figure out) how to surface-test drives with more > cylinders (e.g. Priam V185 with 1166). The convention when the cylinder field overflows 10 bits is to use the two high-order bits of the head field (that's why MFM, and for that matter, IDE drives max out at 64 heads when non-LBA geometry is used.). --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:19:35 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CCDA527.1050903 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/31/10 1:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) >> >> WAY off-topic. > > Some of us would debate that. I personally think the Ultra 2 and the > Ultra 60 as two of Sun's greatest machines. They're practical to own, > and take processors that will make them fairly useful. I agree that they're two of their best designs. I just think that machines which are still pretty common in production environments, built around a modern architecture, are hardly "classic computers". That's all. > I'm also pretty fond of Sparc 20's. As am I. >>> now what to do with that? >> >> Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point math. > > One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. ...unless you want to use it for real work of course. (referencing "older", not OpenBSD) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:24:16 -0700 From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , General Discussion: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:19 PM -0400 10/31/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >>One comment, the older the OS the better, and OpenBSD is an option. > > ...unless you want to use it for real work of course. >(referencing "older", not OpenBSD) We have a production system still running Solaris 2.6 at work. I was thinking along the lines of the older the OS, the less cruft, and the better on the older hardware. For the past few years I've typically run Solaris 8 at home, though I have Solaris 10 on the SunBlade 1000. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:32:37 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <053701cb7924$22bebc20$6600a8c0 at portajara> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response >> Hmmm, is an Ultra 60 offtopic? :o) > WAY off-topic. Sorry you all :o( >> now what to do with that? > Just about anything you can think of, except lots of floating point > math. I always wanted to run solaris, now I have a chance :oD Internet navigation in a BIG computer :oD >> I could use a keyboard and mouse from Sun, since I have none :( > Problem solved; I'll put a set in the box I'm packing up for you. W00T! :oD Thanks a lot, Dave! :oD Since it is SO offtopic, I'll direct my other questions directly to you ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:34:28 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: [OT]? Sun Ultra 60 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <053801cb7924$2451b830$6600a8c0 at portajara> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response > Sun HW and a couple SGI O2's are the only real exceptions to my rule about > not collecting UNIX HW. I used the Suns a lot as general purpose > workstations and servers at home. Either running Solaris, or OpenBSD. My impossible dream is to get a SGI machine. Any of them. There is an Ozone (or something like) in a surplus seller I know, but he asks just too much money for it. Someday I'll get one :oD It is a pride and joy for me to have a SGI machine on my desk :oD ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:37:08 -0200 From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <053901cb7924$25794840$6600a8c0 at portajara> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original >I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but >not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? AFAIK the algorithm is the same, the only difference is in speed/fan out ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:54:08 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4CCD4AD0.28674.362B3F at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Interesting!! I worked for CDC in Toronto from around 1972 to 1977 on > the local PL-50 program. IIRC, the PL-50 was a much slower version of > the STAR-100, but with the same instruction set. Initially, the goal > was to write an operating system. I was part of the Sunnyvale mafia and worked with quite a number of your Canadian co-workers. Anil and I later partnered up on the FORTRAN compiler for the ETA-10. You probably remember that the PL- 50/STAR-65 met an unfortunate fate at the hands of the corporate "leave nothing behind" people. I witnessed firsthand, the destruction of the two STAR-1B systems a couple of years later. It wasn't pretty--a dumpster, bolt cutters and large hammers. I saved a heatsink from the power supply--there wasn't much else left intact. I begged to be allowed to take the ROS stack from one system, but no such luck. The stations were removed and sent back to Arden Hills. -- I'm going from memory on this one, but there's some STAR literature on bitsavers if you want to check my facts. 256 registers of 64 bits; if halfword mode was selected, the lower 128 were doubled and the upper 128 were inaccessible. Many registers had special meanings, including program status, cycle timer and a few others. Internally, memory was fetched 512 bits ("Super word" or "sword"; really 544 bits with ECC included) and the vector pipes were 128 bits wide (2 single-precision results per cycle). An odd machine in that scalar operations were most decidedly RISC in attitude. For example, there were only load and store register- memory operations and one had to use 2 instructions (EX and ELEN) to enter a full 64-bit immediate constant into a register. No stack or auto-increment/decremet per se; subroutine linkage was done with a sort of S/360-style LM-STM combo "swap" instruction that simultaneously stored and loaded any number of registers. The machine architecture itself was basically 3-address, so instructions were either 32 bits or 64 bits in length. Before an ECO ("Rev. R") was installed on all systems, all registers could also be addressed as the lower 256 words of user memory address space. This hugely complicated instruction scheduling and so it was determined that it wasn't needed. I know you guys used the RED OS, but we had to use STAR-OS from LLL as our base in Sunnyvale. It was basically a message-passing OS with a controller started by the job scheduler, which could have as many controllees as desired. You could send a message up the chain, one level, or to the top or broadcast to all controllees. I recall that the termination message content was the characters "ALL DONE". Regarding paging, I saw my share of DEADBEEF codes (was the STAR OS the first to use this failure code?). At some point we went from a demand-paging algorithm to a working-set one, but the stuff that the pager had to keep track of made the code a nightmare. Jim Smith suffered a lot on that thing. It didn't help that we had to scavenge time on the customer systems at LLL or hop the "noon balloon" out of San Jose to use the system at ADL. One thing that I never got to try on the 100 was seeing how long a maximum-length packed BCD divide would take. Given that the byte instruction field lengths were 16 bits, it meant either 65K or 131K digits... One memory I have is being sent to Arden Hills in January during the OPEC oil embargo and settling in for the night in the machine room at ADL because it was warmer than my room at the Ramada. I"d love to find someone who spent time on the TI ASC to compare notes... --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:07:43 -0700 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4CCDB06F.9090905 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/31/2010 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:28, Glen Slick wrote: > > >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>> The bigger problem for me would be finding a programmer for these >>>> >>> things. I've got a mess of SN74S471s and no way to program them.> >>> >> I have the Nat Semi DM74LS471 on the device list of my programmer, but >> not the SN74S471. Any chance the programming algorithms are the same? >> > They probably are. Somewhere in the history of TI part numbers, they > changed some of the bipolar memories from the SN74xxx part number to > TBPxxx. I can't recall which way my parts are labeled, but they're > 471s under the hood. > True, but it has absolutely *nothing* to do with whether a National Semiconductor DM74LS471 uses the same programming algorithm and electrical parameters as the SN74S471. They might, but it was not uncommon for different vendors to have parts that did NOT program in the same way. They often did their own designs, with different types of fuses and materials, requiring different programming parameters. Eric ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:47:06 -0500 From: "MikeS" Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 To: Message-ID: <8021827792C6419AB1C1B7613E954423 at vl420mt> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 4:18 PM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Fred Jan Kraan) > 4. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 5. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Tony Duell) > 6. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Chuck Guzis) > 7. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Dave McGuire) > 8. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Dave McGuire) > 9. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 10. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Brent Hilpert) > 11. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Brent Hilpert) > 12. Fall cleaning, some small machines for free (Bob Rosenbloom) > 13. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Chuck Guzis) > 14. Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (alan canning) > 15. Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) (Chuck Guzis) > 16. Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! (Philip Pemberton) > 17. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 18. Re: Nuclear Data ND 6600 (Tony Duell) > 19. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Tony Duell) > 20. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 21. Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip (Tony Duell) > 22. Re: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB (Tony Duell) > 23. Re: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence > of)) (Tony Duell) > 24. Re: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free (Brent Hilpert) > 25. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (ben) > 26. Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals (Geoffrey Reed) > 27. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Tony Duell) > 28. Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 (Chuck Guzis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:08:19 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCBEE93.7369.1A49AC at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get >> the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at >> roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data >> back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then >> I'd say you have virtual memory. > > So, your definition ties virtual memory into multi-user access? > That's not the way I learned it. > > Consider (again folks, I'm sorry for the reference) the CDC 6600 > (circa 1964). Every user is given a relocation address (called RA) > and field length (FL) as a way of partitioning main memory. Each > user's memory addressing space is kept isolated from every other's > and this fits your definiton because one user's location X was > different from every other user's location X and there was no way for > a user to tell what his RA was; i.e. each user was safely "boxed in". > > That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. Over- > committing memory meant writing/reading the entire FL of a user to > disk ("rollout" and "rollin"). > > Now consider the STAR-100 (I think it would qualify as the first > virtual memory machine of CDC), circa 1969. Every user got an > addressing space of 48 bits, but the machine itself had only > 512Kwords (64 bit) of physical storage. For production use, most of > the time the system was run in single-user mode (kept thrashing down > with large data sets). That fits my definition of VM because the > user was fooled into thinking that there was more physical memory > than there really was. > > Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was > used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file > access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. > That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector > machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather > than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:21:07 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCBF193.19364.2603DF at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the > second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? > > http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- > pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html > > I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as > counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one > furnished. > > --Chuck > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:05:06 +0200 > From: Fred Jan Kraan > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CCC5E52.9000802 at xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS >> disks and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which >> is the entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: >> >> http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG >> >> It's been sitting, covered, pretty much since I obtained it, but now I >> can try reviving it and actually seeing what it can do. I'm going to >> tear into it and clean the drives and so forth, document what it has, >> etc. and then boot 'er up and see what we can see. >> >> I'm looking for a copy of the Technical Ref manual for it; despite >> finding scans of the covers and so forth online, I'm unable to actually >> locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service >> Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to >> speed as well. >> > See > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/mirror/trs-80_archives/Manuals/Hardware/M odel_II_Technical_Reference_Manual_(1980)(Radio_Shack)(pdf).zip. > The Shugart stuff should be included. > > Essential this is from a modified copy of the files that were available > from http://www.trs-80.com/ (copied without permission). >> Many thanks, >> >> Nathan >> >> > Success, > > Fred Jan > > P.S. My own adventures with the Model II: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:35:32 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC6574.8010103 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 17:26, Al Kossow wrote: >> If it's going to be an adapter, could you add holes for SA1000-style 8" >> drives (50pin/20pin cabling)? > > I almost mistook that for a floppy drive until I looked it up on > Bitsavers...! > > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the > bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: > - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock > (270982 to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what > standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The > FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. > - Two jumpers to disconnect the Timing Clock from the ST412/506 Data > connector when these are not in use (or maybe just a second connector?) > - A 50-pin connector for the SA1000 control cable > > The extra cost probably isn't worth worrying about... though I might > have to restrict drive selection to Drive 0 only in order to get enough > I/O pins for head selection. > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:47:54 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> locate one. In addition to that, if someone has a Shugart 8" Service >> Manual, that might come in damned handy for making sure those are up to >> speed as well. > > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I know > 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed too > good to miss :-) > > More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for > them on bitsavers? > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:55:03 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC0797.19723.7C011E at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > >> ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I >> know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed >> too good to miss :-) > > Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz > (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've > made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be > "interesting"... > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:29:06 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC7202.6050705 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to the >> bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: >> - An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 >> to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what standard >> crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. The FPGA's >> PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to check. > > You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's > overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired > frequency spot-on. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:34:25 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC7341.1090704 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file I/O > is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file I/O > into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and indeed, > most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't refer to > this sort of thing. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 20:58:46 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC78F6.9040004 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 20:29, Dave McGuire wrote: >> You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. It's >> overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired >> frequency spot-on. > > ?8.25 each with no quantity discount is *not* cheap. The FPGA only costs > a few quid more than that. > > Digikey have them for ?5.86, but that's still more than a crystal. I > wonder how the host adapters for the SA1000s generated this clock > frequency... it does seem somewhat odd. > > The other thing is, I'd be concerned about releasing hardware with > SA1000 support without testing it on an actual drive. I'm willing to bet > the chances of me finding a working SA1000 in 230V/50Hz configuration > are somewhere between 'slim' and 'nil'. > > I'll guarantee ST506 support though, given that I've got an ST277R RLL > drive and controller here. Just need an MFM controller for it, or the > RLL code tables for the Seagate ST21R or ST22R controller (which IIRC > uses an Adaptec AIC010 chip)... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:23:00 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <8534ab06c8e0281a7fcfc54d6a70efa5 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On the same topic here, can anyone interpret the "state table" on the >> second page of the National DM74LS447 7-segment decoder datasheet? >> >> http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- >> pdf/view/149198/NSC/DM74LS447N.html >> >> I tend to think of state diagrams as belonging to things such as >> counters and don't have a clue as to what to make of the one >> furnished. > > It's obviously a state diagram for a decade counter, my guess is > someone just screwed up making the datasheet and included the state > diagram from some other device. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:50 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >>> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >>> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >>> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >>> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >>> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. >> >> That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), >> accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden >> out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > > I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) > thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would > make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add > on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories > such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would > tell me about the new mmap function in unix. > > >> I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the >> context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> refer to this sort of thing. > > Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk > I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Rosenbloom > Subject: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <960487.42595.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Fall cleaning! > > I have a bunch of old computers and some peripherals. Most are not tested > and I expect they may need some work to become operational, though some > may work correctly as-is. Anyway, I'm hoping to find people interested in > restoring these systems. > > There are three Burroughs B25 systems, each has a processor box, disk box, > monitor, keyboard, and power supply. There is one box of docs and > diskettes and one, very dirty, printer. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b1.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b2.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b3.jpg > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-b4.jpg > > IBM convertible, an early laptop type system. > > A Computer Products portable, thermal, serial terminal. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-ptr.jpg > > A Radio Shack TRS-80 model I with expansion chassis and monitor. I believe > this has a bad power supply. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-rs.jpg > > A NEC Spinwriter terminal. This is like a Diablo daisywheel terminal > except the print element is a cylinder. I know this one needs work but > does power up. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-spin.jpg > > Some kind of cartridge tape system. I think it's SCSI interfaced. I don't > believe this has ever been used. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-tape.jpg > > A large flatbed scanner that I also believe is unused. It's SCSI > interfaced. UMAX 3000. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-scanner.jpg > > Digitech RS-232 analyzer with manuals. This runs CP/M 86 but I don't have > the boot disc for it. Does power up. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/misc-anal.jpg > > Kaypro 2, powers up and ask for a system disk. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/kaypro1.jpg > > Hitachi pen plotter. This has a parallel interface. It powers up and works > from the front panel. Light weight. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/hitachi1.jpg > > Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. > http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg > > Nicolet Zeta 8A pen plotter. 8 pens. Also powers up and works from the > front panel. Serial interface. > > All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the Bonny > Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara where I > work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really don't want to > ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. > > Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and these > are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:39:13 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC2001.27472.DB6112 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/30/10 2:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> > I can't see any real reason why SA1000 support couldn't be added to >> > the bridge-board. Looks like the only changes required would be: - >> > An oscillator to generate the 3.6866us +/- 0.1% timing clock (270982 >> > to 271524Hz, nominal 271253Hz). Although I have no idea what >> > standard crystal frequencies could be used to generate that signal. >> > The FPGA's PLL might be persuaded to do it, though, I'll have to >> > check. >> >> You could stick a little AD9833 (or similar) DDS chip on there. >> It's >> overkill, but they're pretty cheap now, and you'll get the desired >> frequency spot-on. > > Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? > Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:52:12 -0700 > From: alan canning > Subject: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried > all > the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no > joy. > I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. > > Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and > Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power > amplifier. > > Thanks for any and all help. > > Best regards, Steven > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:54:40 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 15:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in >> the >> context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> refer to this sort of thing. > > I'm sure and I'd never seriously call it "memory-mapped I/O"--but > sometimes our world seems akin to that of Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use > a word it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less" > > Uh-oh, here comes another story... > > After I left CDC and the STAR project in 1977, my past came back to > haunt me in the form of doing an optimizing FORTRAN for the ETA-10 in > about 1983. We got a leased-line linkup to ETA in St. Paul and I > asked what text editor they were using. > > Much to my surprise, it turned out to be the same editor I'd written > for a lark around 1975 when the STAR had lots of really interesting > byte string instructions and I could exploit file-mapped I/O to use > them. Mind you, this was in the day of 16-line 1200 bps terminals. > > But the ETA-10 had none of those instructions, essentially having > evolved out of the "everything but the kitchen sink CISC" state of > mind of the original architecture. Some programmer had been detailed > off to replace all of those cool vector instructions with their > scalar equivalents! > > I was stunned and opined that with that way of thinking, the software > end of the ETA project was doomed. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:58:20 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and > microcode! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC86EC.8040906 at philpem.me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 30/10/10 21:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Also, aren't the read/write data signals on the SA1000 differential? >> Or do I have them confused with the ST506 interface? > > They're both differential. It's just that the SA1000 expects you to feed > it a reference clock signal. It doesn't have to be locked against > write-data, it just has to be there, and be accurate to 0.1%... > > Assuming the OEM manual is accurate, of course. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:23:40 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 29 Oct 2010 at 22:10, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Anyother thought I had is to use a 7447 for the lower 8 or 10 >> > patterns (as it's designed to do!) and add logic for the higher ones. >> > I don't know if that saves chips. >> >> The 7447 has a problem in that the "6" doesn't have the top crossbar, >> so that it's indistinguishable from a "b". The '247 does include the >> top segment when displaying '6', which is why I mentioned the 247 and >> not 47. > > Yes, I should have remembered that... > > >> >> This brings to mind an ancient "fix" for the 47 "6" display--a >> pulldown diode connected between segment "e" and segment "a"--in the > > Been there, done that :-) > >> display of 0-9 there is no time when segment "e" is active that >> segment "a" isn't also active. The converse, however isn't true--and >> this "fix" will mess up your display of "b" if you use the method >> described previously to display 0-F. > > Of course. For 'b' you mmed the 'e' segment without the 'a' segment. > That's what distinguishes it from '6' > > >> >> But if you allow diodes, then there's no reason not to use a 4-to-16 >> demux and a mess of diodes to do the decoding for 0-F, is there? > > while my original question didn't preclude the use of discrete > components, and while I happly ageee that the odd diodes, pull-up > resisotrs, etc can lead to interesting solutions, I do feel that such a > diode matrix is outisde the spirit of the problem. After all, you could > say it can be solved with no ICs at all, just lots of discrete > transistors, etc. :-) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:27:54 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Nuclear Data ND 6600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> eons ago at a TRW a friend bought a nice box that looked much like an >> ADM3a with nice case, integrated CRT and keyboard, and gleefully gave >> the guy selling it about $40 for it. This was in the day of $700 >> terminals new prices. >> >> It was a Vector graphics console. Unfortunately he had not looked at >> the back, or thru the cracks, but it was a plastic case with a keyboard >> and CRT inside, no PS, electronics or anything else. I suspect when he > > I am suprised there wasn't the standard driver circuits for the CRT (from > composite vidoe, say). My guess is that there should have been, and they > were msising. > >> moved east some years ago it got dumpstered, but it was about the same >> sort of thing, no brains in the "terminal" but in the box. > > ICL did something similar. They had 'terminals' that consisted of encoded > keyboards and composite monitors. The case was painted a horrible orange > colour ... I think I still have one of the keyboards somewhere, but I > mangaged to give the monitor away some years ago (thankfully...) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:07:02 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 30 Oct 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > ...And if they;'re not, it's most likelyto be the drive belt. Yes I >> > know 'up to speed' wasn't meant to be taken literally, but that seemed >> > too good to miss :-) >> >> Well, he could have a 220V 50Hz model and be running it on 120V 60Hz >> (the motor will develop sufficient torque to spin the disk). I've >> made that mistake once. The results from the reverse would be >> "interesting"... > > Actaully, a lot of the 8" drives I have have 120V motors, but of course > the right pulleys for 50Hz mains. They are run from an > (auto)transformer, often the primary winding of the syatem mains > transformer. > > So I suppose he could have something like that :-) > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:41:27 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 2010 Oct 29, at 2:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > For those who are wondeirng, the 'trivial' solution I mentioned uses 7 >> > off 74150 16-input multiplexers, one for each segment. You tie the >> > inputs >> > high low to determine if that segment is on or off for a given set fo 4 >> > input bits. >> > >> > After posing that, I thought of other solutions that make no >> > assumptions >> > about the segment patterns -- they always work. For example 7 off >> > 74151 8 >> > input muxes and a single inverter (1/6 of a 7404) That has the >> > advantage >> > of automatically providing actrive high and active low outputs. >> >> That only gives you 8 patterns, not 16 .. ? > > Err, no. That's what the extra inverter is for. > > You know hos to use a 2^n input mux to make an arbitrary combinartorial > function of n signals. Feed the n signals to the select inputs of the > multiplexer and wire the 'data' inputs high or low as the truth table > requires. > > But you can also yuse a 2^(n-1) input mux and maybe a single inverte, you > connect n-1 of the input lines to the select inputs of the mux. And then > for each of those combinations you consider the 2 truth table lines that > apply (the last input, the one you've not used yet, of course > distinguishes between the 2 lines in each pair). There are 4 possibilites > : > a) The output of the function is 0 in both cases (it doesn't depend on > the last input at all) --> wire that input of thr mux to ground > > b) It's 1 in both cases -> wire the input to Vcc > > c) It's 0, 1 , it follows the last input in this case -> Wire that last > input signal to the appropraite input of the multiplexer > > d) It's 1,0, it's the opposite of the last input. This is when you need > that inverter. Invert the last input signal and wire the appropriate > multiplexer input to the ouptu of the inverter. > > If oyu requre several functions of the same inputs (as here), you only > need 1 ivnerter (assumeing there are no fan-out problems), since it's > always thge same singal (say the 2^0 data input) you need to invert. > > Son yes, you can use 8 input multiplexers here (and 4 input ones if you > only want to generate 6 or 8 patterns). > > Now, another silly aside... > > If you want to use a 2^(n-2) mux, you may need any or all of the 16 > possible functions of the last 2 inputs (you split up the truth table > into sets of 4 lines, and see which function of the last 2 inputs gives > the right paattern, of course). This makes it less useful :-). But it's > made me think pof a chip that AFAIK never existed... If you think of those > 16 possible functions of 2 inputs, then 4 of them are 'trivial' in the > sense that you can produce them with no logic at all. Namely 'always 0', > 'always 1', 'equal to the A input' and 'equal to the B input'. Which > leaves 12 non-rtrivial ones/ Now that means there could have been a 16 > pin IC with 2 power pins, 2 inputs and 12 outputs, the 12 non-trivial > functions of the 2 inputs. Use that witha 74150 for an arbitrary fucntion > of 6 inputs... > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:44:22 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> > I too realised that halfway thru the exercise and went scrambling back >> > to the databook to check on the 247. >> >> Another reason to lament the passing of the hardcopy databook. I >> used to sit and read them cover-to-cover. Not really possible in > > Absolutely. Of cousre I've kept all my old paper databooks, and still > read them from time to tieme. > > Yes, it's very useful being able to get data on just about any standard > IC over the internet. But it's useful in a different way being able to > flip through a data book, see what's available, etc. I've yet to find a > manufacturer's site that lets me browse in the same way. > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:48:01 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 30/10/10 03:08, Dan Williams wrote: >> > I am on the lookout for a monitor something similar to a Phillips >> > cm3388 does anyone near London have one they would like to sell or >> > trade, or know of anywhere I could get one. >> >> Surely you mean the CM8833? >> Those were fairly extensively re-badged -- Acorn, for instance, sold a=20 >> variant of the CM8833 Mk.II as the AKF17. > > Is CM8833 a TTL-input monitor? I think it was available as an option, > but most of them take analogue RGB on the SCART socket. > > Most of the time the SCART inputs, for all they're supposed to be 1V will > stand TTL (the CM8833 ones certainly will). Or since they're terminated > to ground through a 75 ohm resistor, connect a 300 Ohm (or so) resistor > in series with each TTL signal. Done that many times :-) > > Is there any reason a TV with a SCART socket isn't suitable? Most, if not > all, LCD and plasma TVs should haev RGB inputs on the SCART socket, for > example. > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:52:09 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: I/O models (was RE: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence > of)) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> OK, it's fair to say that there's nothing that precludes memory-mapped >> I/O = >> in any machine (except perhaps physical memory architecture, although I >> can= >> 't think of an example). But port-mapped I/O machines had specific >> instruc= > > The obvious problem would be if the memroy map is already totally full. > If you've got a Z80 systme with 64K of memory, it would be perverse to > try memory mapped I/O (you could have some kind of MMU, but why...). > Similarky trying to emmeroy map any kind of I/O on a 2MByte PERQ would be > an 'interesting' exercise... > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:09:44 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Fall cleaning, some small machines for free > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <981998b8f30737dece941bd3fc38a0c1 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Oct 30, at 1:36 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >> Panasonic NV-A960 VCR editing unit. >> http://www.anifur.com/clist/a960-1.jpg > > I dismantled one of these a few years ago, it contained an > (NEC-branded) 8080, a whack of NEC 8255's (PIO), half-a dozen ceramic > Fujitsu MB8516's (2K*8 EPROMS, 2716-like), all socketed, for anyone > that might take an interest in such stuff. > > >> All of these are located in the Santa Cruz, CA mountains, near the >> Bonny Doon airport. I can possibly bring something into Santa Clara >> where I work. Best to come visit and check them out here. I really >> don't want to >> ship anything as I just don't have the time or energy. >> >> Please rescue these before I scrap them, I really need the space and >> these are now outside, but covered under a Quonset hut. >> >> Bob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:11:06 -0600 > From: ben > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4CCC89EA.1000405 at jetnet.ab.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > looks for 74S188 with google > http://www.futurlec.com/Memory/74S188pr.shtml > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:17:16 -0700 > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Y'all are making me miss my tandy model 16 and 6000. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:21:08 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've tried >> all >> the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. ) with no >> joy. >> I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. >> >> Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 and >> Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF Power >> amplifier. > > IIRC, this is a PROM, 32*8 I think. Do you have a copy of the data to > program into it? A blank chip is not a lot of use to you otherwise... > > Also while all the derives you've mentioned are I think compatible when > being read (that is, as they are normally used in the circuit), the > programming algorithms are different for differnet manufacturers. You need > to get one that your programmer can handle > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 14:18:38 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Need to find parts 82S23 / 74S188 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4CCC293E.2099.FF7864 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 30 Oct 2010 at 13:52, alan canning wrote: > >> Anybody no where to score some Sig 82S23 / Nat 74S188 parts ? I've >> tried all the usual suspects ( Ebay, local parts houses, Digikey, etc. >> ) with no joy. I believe this part was used on old S100 boards. >> >> Part also known as ( a.k.a. ) Fu 7111, AMD 27S18, MMI 6330, TI 18SA30 >> and Harris 7602. Need this part to fix an old computer controlled RF >> Power amplifier. > > If you'd like something a bit closer to home, you might try ACP-- > they're listing some IM5603s on eBay for $7.95 the each. > > --Chuck > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 68 > ************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:37:47 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: Virtual memory To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CCD46FB.6070304 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 2010-10-30 23:18, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2010 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > If your program vrites data to address 0, and reads it back, and get >> > the same data back, and another program on the same machine, at >> > roughly the same time, write to address 0, and reads the same data >> > back, and that data is different than the first programs data, then >> > I'd say you have virtual memory. > So, your definition ties virtual memory into multi-user access? > That's not the way I learned it. No no no. You miss my point. It don't directory tie in to multiuser access. It's about presenting to you a memory which in reality does not exist as you perceive it. As a follow on benefit of this is the fact that you can have multiple instances at the same time. But that is not the definition. The definition is that you appear to have a linear space of memory that maps the whole virtual address range, and that this memory is yours alone. It is your own private memory. Just as a virtual machine is your own private machine. No matter the fact that in reality, this is not the case, and your memory (or machine) is just something running under the control of an underlying operating system, which gives you this service. > Consider (again folks, I'm sorry for the reference) the CDC 6600 > (circa 1964). Every user is given a relocation address (called RA) > and field length (FL) as a way of partitioning main memory. Each > user's memory addressing space is kept isolated from every other's > and this fits your definiton because one user's location X was > different from every other user's location X and there was no way for > a user to tell what his RA was; i.e. each user was safely "boxed in". The important question here - are the programs aware of the RA register, and can they change it? And can they address the full range of memory addresses as perceived by the program. > That's not virtual memory by any stretch of the definition. Over- > committing memory meant writing/reading the entire FL of a user to > disk ("rollout" and "rollin"). Another word for swapping in and out? Anyway, I'm not sure if this would qualify as virtual memory or not without knowing a few more details. But it might very well be virtual memory, as far as I can tell. > Now consider the STAR-100 (I think it would qualify as the first > virtual memory machine of CDC), circa 1969. Defined by whom? CDC? Or you guys? ;-) > Every user got an > addressing space of 48 bits, but the machine itself had only > 512Kwords (64 bit) of physical storage. For production use, most of > the time the system was run in single-user mode (kept thrashing down > with large data sets). That fits my definition of VM because the > user was fooled into thinking that there was more physical memory > than there really was. You know, my definition and yours don't necessarily disagree on all points. Both would define the VAX as having virtual memory (well, except for the fact that yours might not, if you have a VAX with enough physical memory). We just disagree about what when there is more physical memory than you have virtual memory space. For you, that means it can't be virtual memory. but for me it can. For me, what is relevant is whether the program is presented with his own private memory space, which contains all addresses he can address, and where all those addresses are valid and working. A memory space which he don't have to share with anyone else. That's what virtual memory is, as opposed to physical memory, which you can point at, and which all running code on a computer needs to live on. And that means that the OS is always there. And possibly other processes as well. Using the same addresses you are. If that means that you cannot have your own memory for a specific address, then it's not virtual memory. But then you probably aren't talking about virtual memory either, but physical memory. > Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was > used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file > access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. > That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector > machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather > than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. > > So I think we differ considerably in our definitions. On some parts, yes. So, do the VAX not have virtual memory? After all, I can fill a VAX with more physical memory than you can address virtually. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:47:53 +0100 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: Memory mapped I/O To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CCD4959.8040105 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 2010-10-30 23:18, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 30, at 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> > On 10/30/10 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >> Aside from expanding program storage, the large addressing space was >>> >> used to map file space (another type of "memory-mapped I/O"), so file >>> >> access was actually performed through the paging hardware/software. >>> >> That was kind of cool, as the STAR was a memory-to-memory vector >>> >> machine, so you could use vector instructions on entire files, rather >>> >> than have to issue reads and writes for pieces of a file. >> > >> > That functionality is in use all over the place today as mmap(), >> > accessing files as if they were memory, pushing the read/write burden >> > out into the VM system. It's extremely effective. > I remember in the 80's (programming primarily on BSD (and VMS)) > thinking it would nice to have that functionality, how easy it would > make a lot of file-access programming, and that it would be easy to add > on a VM system. Of course, I was in ignorance of the prior histories > such as the STAR that Chuck mentions. A few years later a friend would > tell me about the new mmap function in unix. This might very well be totally wrong, but I remember hearing about it at the time, that Sun (who I believe was the ones to first implement mmap()) bascially took the whole TOPS-20 concept and translated it to Unix. A bit surprised no TOPS-20 hackers have spoken up yet... This was around for a long time on the PDP-10 before this. Not sure how it correlates timewise to CDC and the STAR though. But no matter if Unix took it from TOPS-20 or not, there is no denying that TOPS-20 had this a long time before it came to Unix. >> > I'd not consider it to be "memory-mapped I/O" at all, though, in the >> > context of "a processor reading and writing I/O ports". Sure, file >> > I/O is a sort of I/O, and mmap() and similar techniques map that file >> > I/O into the address space, but the context of this discussion...and >> > indeed, most, it not all use of the term "memory-mapped I/O" doesn't >> > refer to this sort of thing. > Well, Chuck did say "a type of". If files are a form of abstracted disk > I/O, then mmap is a form of abstracted memory-mapped I/O. Memory mapped files are kindof neat, but it's not I/O at all in one way. After all, all you do is just leave the actual I/O to the virtual memory system instead of doing it yourself. So it's not that the I/O is done in any different way, it's just initiated by someone else. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "O. Sharp" Subject: Re: Repairing core memories.... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. Just to mke sure I'm hearing you right: Are you saying one individual core is 100% dead, and everything else is 100% okay? If so - if it's one single, individual core which is broken - I'd suspect this is pretty much irrepairable. The options would be to A) try to form/mold/create a new ferrite core around the wires, which would be insanely difficult assuming it could be done at all, or B) to unwire that plane of the core stack, replace the broken ferrite core with a new one, and then rethread/rewire it. That's extremely nontrivial work, I have to believe. But they were originally threaded by hand, albeit by people with microscopes and _very_ good eye-hand coordination and sewing skills, so it's within the realm of possibility. If I've read you wrong, though, and the whole thing is working except address 0 bit 3 is working _some_ of the time, that would be really good news. :) You could try scoping out the sense amps and inhibit drivers for bit 3 and see if they were just borderline to specifications, something which might be just tweaky enough to affect one bit. > The other stack seems to be a total loss : > 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. Of > course the further quality of the cores is unknown. Oddly enough, this one might be easier to deal with. Have you tracked down where the sense wires go open-circuit? If they're failing at a solder-joint near an outer edge, you could potentially repair them without having to open up the whole damn stack. The diode replacement would likely mean partially disassembling the stack assembly to gain access to both sides of the diode PCB, but at least you're only having to dig in one level. O'course making those repairs might simply reveal more problems at the core level. But you've gotta start somewhere, I s'pose. :) > Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of these > ? > > Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK stack would > seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to be on a edge of a > core mat. I suspect I'm not the only one on the list who: -thinks opening up a core-stack and repairing it is theoretically possible; -also thinks it would be a hell of a daunting project; -is somewhat amazed at the dexterity and patience of the people who originally hand-wired them at manufacture; and -thinks pulling off a repair of a core-plane by rewiring it by hand would give significant bragging rights. :) -O.- End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 71 ************************************** From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 31 19:39:14 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:39:14 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD9CD4.23319.1768A24@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCD9CD4.23319.1768A24@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCE0C32.5060701@jwsss.com> Microdata core stacks had these huge resistors in the inhibit circuit that would literally set the board and system on fire. Panel mode, R register 0xA010 in the switchers (write) and run, wait for smoke or PS failure. Microcoded machines with easy access to this sort of 1/2 cycle write would hit the board every 200us, when the requirement was for 600us for a 1/2 cycle read, and 1000us for a Write. The writes would not complete that fast, but the 1600 (and 800's) logic was such that you would cycle the board fast enough to cause the damage. I know that individual cores would simply stop functioning over time. I worked with a company in Santa Ana, Memtec, which repaired the Microdata and a few other local minicomputer companies core stacks, but mostly Microdata's because the principles in the company were ex Microdata field service. I recall seeing one with the stack open and there was a small spot in the middle of the stack where they had clipped out the failing core from the three wires, extended (or rethreaded) the replacement back into the stack, and it stood maybe 1/2mm to 1/4mm out from the array. They had a dab of hotmelt or something on the rework since there were uninsulated welds where they did the splicing. (mind you very small welds). A friend acquired their working microscope in the early 80's for a keepsake, and it was a large Nikon with binocular high eye relief eyepieces. Microdata had two people who did corestack repair, and some of the stacks made in Puerto Rico came with repairs, especially in the 16k arrays. Microdata manufactured their own 16k core stack, but bought outside for the 8K's. I think the original 4k stacks they used were made by Dataram, I could look if anyone is interested. The 4k stacks were probably dated from 1968 or so, and had a large metal plate over the array which was about 8" by 8". anyone have any idea about whether this was mechanical, or was it possibly for magnetic reasons in early core stacks? The 8K arrays and 16K arrays (as well as the Ampex / CDC arrays) were all just circuit boards with a grid etch pattern covering them no full metal plate. Jim On 10/31/2010 4:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 19:12, Charles Dickman wrote: > >> So how does a single core fail? A crack I guess. Maybe overheating >> that could change the characteristics of the core materials. > That was my understanding--and the reason that core was in an oil > bath to start with. > > I vaguely recall something related about the CDC 7600, where it was > possible to write pathological code that would repeatedly hit the > same bank of core (core, even on the PPUs was interleaved, but it was > very fast--for the time--27.5nsec core) and cause said core to > overheat and the machine to throw parity errors. The solution was to > integrate the frequency of bank accesses and slow the system down if > they became too frequent. I don't recall how it was done, however. > > --Chuck > >