From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 1 02:38:44 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:38:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Sep 2019, ben wrote: > A quick look, nothing is said about Algol, did you mean Assembler? > what I see is interesting is that LISP is on a 11. I allways thought > LISP only ran on BIGGER machines. I have the source and binary for KLISP-11 V2 on papertape; available on our FTP server. Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 1 03:22:44 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:22:44 +0100 Subject: Standard Engineering CAMAC crate controller with LSI-11 In-Reply-To: <5D92AFAC.5030503@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92AFAC.5030503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <021901d57831$670f6350$352e29f0$@gmail.com> Jon, Used lots of these back in the day. Where in the world is it, its big to ship? Does it need a CAMAC memory card or a QBUS card? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 01 October 2019 02:45 > To: General at ezwind.net; Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Standard Engineering CAMAC crate controller with LSI-11 > > I have a 3-board set, a Standar Engineering MIK-11/2, which is a controller for > a CAMAC crate, with an LSI-11/2 (M7270) in it. It also has a serial port in it. I > thought there was a memory that went with it, but I can't seem to find that. > > Anybody have any use for this? > > Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 1 08:02:15 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 06:02:15 -0700 Subject: Tek 500 pulser modules In-Reply-To: <5D92B063.5020005@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92B063.5020005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <464f93d8-3806-d37d-6e3c-a57ae37571c0@bitsavers.org> http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs On 9/30/19 6:48 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I have 3 units of the Pulse Instruments PI-451A programmable pulse > driver.? One has a note that it is bad.? These seem to be general > purpose pulse generators, capable of +/- 25 V into 50 Ohms (but that > is just from reading the labels on the panel.) > > Anybody have a use for them?? If I had a 500 bin I could probably use > them, but I don't. > > Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 1 08:16:26 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned Message-ID: <20191001131626.7FFC518C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > Any idea what ultimately happened to that 11/45? MIT offered it to me as a gift, but I was a total idiot (and also didn't have future vision), and as I was so busy with the IETF/IESG at the time (which might have been the right call, given how the Internet - note the correct capitalization - has changed the world) I didn't have time to arrange the shipping, and it was given to FTP Software. I recently tried to track it down, to find all the software on it (before I discovered a couple of sets of dump tapes I had made BITD in my basement), and they gave it to one of their employees and it was apparently scrapped. > Are the Algol and LISP available anywhere? Not up yet, but if anyone wants either, I can try and find time to get them up. For the Algol interpreter, all I have is the binary (runs under the MIT-hacked PWB1 - not sure if it would run until vanilla V6) and the manual; the source was unfortunately not saved when the drives were moved from DSSR/RTS (the DELPHI group) to my group, CSR. (Although there may at one point have been a copy retained on a now long-lost pack, along with a lot of other 6.031 stuff, like problem sets sources; I do have a file which is a listing of the disk contents.) For the LISP interpreter, we do have the source (in MACRO) too. Alas, to build it, one needs the 'bind' binder (which groks .REL files, which are based on DEC's relocatable binary format), which was i) written in BCPL, and ii) the current binary can't rebuild itself (I forget the details, whether it's the BCPL compiler, the MACRO assembler, or 'bind' which can't be re-built; it was a couple of years back I was playing with all that). Luckily, we do have some older binaries which can probably be used to work around the issue. Of course, if one just wants to use the existing interpreter binary, one can avoid all that. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 10:10:52 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 10:10:52 -0500 Subject: Tek 500 pulser modules In-Reply-To: <464f93d8-3806-d37d-6e3c-a57ae37571c0@bitsavers.org> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92B063.5020005@pico-systems.com> <464f93d8-3806-d37d-6e3c-a57ae37571c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5D936C7C.60108@pico-systems.com> On 10/01/2019 08:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf > > > 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs > Wow, good find! Thanks, Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 11:03:54 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 11:03:54 -0500 Subject: Standard Engineering CAMAC crate controller with LSI-11 In-Reply-To: References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92AFAC.5030503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5D9378EA.8070609@pico-systems.com> On 09/30/2019 09:17 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > just a box of boards or a system missing a memoru module? Here's the LSI11/2 module : http://pico-systems.com/images/CAMACLSI.JPG Here's the CAMAC interface : http://pico-systems.com/images/CAMACintf.JPG Here's the panel label : http://pico-systems.com/images/CAMAClabel.JPG And here's the serial interface : http://pico-systems.com/images/CAMACser.JPG Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 11:05:24 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 11:05:24 -0500 Subject: RAMTEK memory boards FTGH In-Reply-To: <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5D937944.5040701@pico-systems.com> On 09/30/2019 08:21 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I have 20 RAMTEK memory boards from late '80s frame > buffers. They each have 20 TMS4161-20NL video RAM chips > on them. The RAMTEK part # is ASSY 510857 > > Anyone have any interest? > > Jon > Here's a pic : http://pico-systems.com/images/RAMTEK.JPG So, this set has 400 pieces of the TMS4161-20NL, and they could be salvaged, if you wanted to. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 1 11:07:09 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 11:07:09 -0500 Subject: SGI Challenge M memory boards In-Reply-To: <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5D9379AD.2060302@pico-systems.com> I have 15 pieces of memory SIMMs for the Challenge M series (funny, seems like there should be an even #). Pics here : http://pico-systems.com/images/SGIChallenge.JPG Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 1 11:15:32 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 17:15:32 +0100 Subject: Standard Engineering CAMAC crate controller with LSI-11 In-Reply-To: <5D92BC3F.4070809@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92AFAC.5030503@pico-systems.com> <5D92BC3F.4070809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <065801d57873$73a8c470$5afa4d50$@gmail.com> Much to my surprise, there are CAMAC Crates and memory cards on E-Bay. How you would use this I don't know. When I worked at NERC we used them for many many tasks. We had a Honeywell L66 running GCOS3. We used these to emulate Honeywell RNP707s. These were like 3780's so remote work terminals, printers, punches, readers etc. Some of these were just local to the Honeywell and others were remote...... .. we also build 3780 HASP type workstations, with remote screens as well for access to IBM kit elsewhere. Then we had media conversion systems which for example we used to read tapes from the various experiments they carried out and copy the data to normal 9-track tape..... Some systems had Unibus PDP/11's. Others had Q-Bus systems. The software was built on an IBM mainframe using a PDP-11 cross assembler and we had libraries to handle the CAMAC modules. Some systems had PROM loaded cards, others we loaded from Paper Tape. Some of the software wasn't reliable so we had to re-boot often Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 01 October 2019 03:39 > To: Adrian Stoness ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Standard Engineering CAMAC crate controller with LSI-11 > > On 09/30/2019 09:17 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > just a box of boards or a system missing a memoru module? > > > OK, if you are not familiar with it, CAMAC is a standard for data acquisition and > control, that has 25-slot powered crates. At the right edge, the last 2 slots are > dedicated as controller slots. > This was a 3-slot set that could be used as a programmable controller for the > CAMAC crate. > So, it has 3 CAMAC modules, one of which has the LSI11/2 in it. > But, since the LSI11/2 doesn't have memory on board, and the other boards > don't seem to have any memory, it seems something is missing. I think there > must have been a 4th module that communicated by a ribbon cable across the > front. It may still be around here... > > Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 11:33:15 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:33:15 +0000 Subject: Tek 500 pulser modules In-Reply-To: <5D936C7C.60108@pico-systems.com> References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92B063.5020005@pico-systems.com> <464f93d8-3806-d37d-6e3c-a57ae37571c0@bitsavers.org>, <5D936C7C.60108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi I thought I'd mention that when troubleshooting a computer, if you can't takeover the execution of the processor, such as a diagnostic ROM, a pulse generator can be a useful tool. For most all TTL, except some bus drivers, one can use a pulse generator to override a 1 value to inject a signal in a circuit path. Most don't realize that these have many uses. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 8:10 AM To: Al Kossow ; General at ezwind.net ; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules On 10/01/2019 08:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf > > > 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs > Wow, good find! Thanks, Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 11:39:56 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:39:56 +0000 Subject: Tek 500 pulser modules In-Reply-To: References: <000001d56e4f$689f74d0$39de5e70$@classiccmp.org> <5D82D6F5.9040508@pico-systems.com> <67c90f2b-ece7-5507-cde9-3c53b2de139e@sydex.com> <20190919165209.GA27189@RawFedDogs.net> <5D843EDB.5050806@pico-systems.com> <5D92AA37.9010601@pico-systems.com> <5D92B063.5020005@pico-systems.com> <464f93d8-3806-d37d-6e3c-a57ae37571c0@bitsavers.org>, <5D936C7C.60108@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: I thought I'd mention, do use caution when fixing pulse generators. The output transistors are often mounted an a beryllium ceramic. Even the dust from these is quite toxic. These usually have warning stickers but stickers can get lots. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 9:33 AM To: Jon Elson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules Hi I thought I'd mention that when troubleshooting a computer, if you can't takeover the execution of the processor, such as a diagnostic ROM, a pulse generator can be a useful tool. For most all TTL, except some bus drivers, one can use a pulse generator to override a 1 value to inject a signal in a circuit path. Most don't realize that these have many uses. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2019 8:10 AM To: Al Kossow ; General at ezwind.net ; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Tek 500 pulser modules On 10/01/2019 08:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.pulseinstruments.com/plugins/PI-451A_Users_Manual.pdf > > > 100ns to 100us with MOS outputs > Wow, good find! Thanks, Jon From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 1 12:36:44 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 13:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for S100 SCP-500C, Disk Master, Seattle Computer Products Message-ID: Looking for a SCP-500C Disk Controller to go with my CPU Support and 8086 boards. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 1 17:28:59 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:28:59 -0600 Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76325ad1-597d-846b-8ac9-96a63c401ed1@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/1/2019 1:38 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 30 Sep 2019, ben wrote: >> A quick look,? nothing is said about Algol, did you mean Assembler? >> what I see is interesting is that LISP is on a 11. I allways thought >> LISP only ran on BIGGER machines. > > I have the source and binary for KLISP-11 V2 on papertape; available on > our FTP server. > > Christian > Strange Paper tape lasts forver,Digial media is lost after the latest server crash. Thank god for the the bitsaver's people and Internet Archive Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 1 19:15:54 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 20:15:54 -0400 Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned In-Reply-To: <76325ad1-597d-846b-8ac9-96a63c401ed1@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <76325ad1-597d-846b-8ac9-96a63c401ed1@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <63d56e00-ade7-96ed-e7f2-8d6c7862cac4@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-10-01 6:28 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > Strange Paper tape lasts forver,Digial media is lost after the latest > server crash Both better have backups. Paper tape doesn't do well in fires and floods. --T From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 1 19:22:09 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 20:22:09 -0400 Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned In-Reply-To: <63d56e00-ade7-96ed-e7f2-8d6c7862cac4@telegraphics.com.au> References: <76325ad1-597d-846b-8ac9-96a63c401ed1@jetnet.ab.ca> <63d56e00-ade7-96ed-e7f2-8d6c7862cac4@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6AEA9E32-ED34-4156-AD19-D221A2166FF2@comcast.net> > On Oct 1, 2019, at 8:15 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-10-01 6:28 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: >> Strange Paper tape lasts forver,Digial media is lost after the latest >> server crash > > Both better have backups. Paper tape doesn't do well in fires and floods. I remember Mylar punched tape. That stuff is amazingly strong and waterproof. I've seen it for paper tapes that were intended to be read thousands of times -- OS boot tapes for example, or the correction data tape for an instrument in my father's lab. DECtape is pretty waterproof; there have been reports of reels accidentally being run through the laundry and coming out perfectly readable afterwards. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 1 20:28:51 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:28:51 -0700 Subject: Course materials for MIT 6.031 (c. 1974) scanned In-Reply-To: <6AEA9E32-ED34-4156-AD19-D221A2166FF2@comcast.net> References: <76325ad1-597d-846b-8ac9-96a63c401ed1@jetnet.ab.ca> <63d56e00-ade7-96ed-e7f2-8d6c7862cac4@telegraphics.com.au> <6AEA9E32-ED34-4156-AD19-D221A2166FF2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/1/19 5:22 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Both better have backups. Paper tape doesn't do well in fires and floods. > > I remember Mylar punched tape. That stuff is amazingly strong and waterproof. I've seen it for paper tapes that were intended to be read thousands of times -- OS boot tapes for example, or the correction data tape for an instrument in my father's lab. > > DECtape is pretty waterproof; there have been reports of reels accidentally being run through the laundry and coming out perfectly readable afterwards. > 1/2" Magnetic tape is quite resilient, even when stored improperly (e.g. full of mold). --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 1 21:39:59 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:39:59 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Videos Message-ID: The videos are up! The last of the VCF Midwest 14 Talks videos, shot in glorious 4K and lovingly edited by the intrepid Trixter, have been rendered and posted to our YouTube channel: http://youtube.com/vcfmidwest Check out the Talks you missed this year and in years past, as well as select attendees' videos that we've linked from our page. If you'd like, click the Subscribe button on our profile to let us know you want to see more. Thanks to all those who presented at VCFMW this year and to all that shot video when we were too busy to document our own show. For some of us, it's the only way we see it. 'Til next year... -j From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Oct 1 21:23:58 2019 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 22:23:58 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). If you want to see a tiny implementation then look for the PDP-1 implementation done by L Peter Deutsch. There's a book chapter and then I found this report: http://s3data.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/DEC.pdp_1.1964.102650371.pdf From lars at nocrew.org Tue Oct 1 22:26:27 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 03:26:27 +0000 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: (Mark Kahrs via cctech's message of "Tue, 1 Oct 2019 22:23:58 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wpnjfhlp8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Mark Kahrs wrote: > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR > and CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement > Register). Or was it an IBM 704? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 2 09:33:26 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 10:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need DM11 documentation Message-ID: <20191002143326.0DFFE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, does anyone out there have any DM11 documentation? The only thing I could find online is the "DM11-BB model control option manual" (DEC-11-HDMBA-A-D) - and it's the impetus for this request, actually. One page 1-5, pg. 15 of the PDF, it has a diagram of which boards go into which slots on the DM11 backplane - and ir has _two_ boards marked M7245! So something's clearly wrong. The DM11 is a fascinating oddball of an interface, BTW. (It's in the 1972 edition of the "peripherals and interfacing handbook".) A lot of its internal state is kept in main memory, and accessed via DMA! This includes the incoming data shift registers!!! So it can really chew up a bus - probably why it was dropped ASAP. I guess when it was done, memory in chips must have been expensive and/or not very dense; and it must have been before the first UART chips. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 08:22:45 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:22:45 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <7wpnjfhlp8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wpnjfhlp8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 4:39 AM Lars Brinkhoff via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Mark Kahrs wrote: > > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR > > and CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement > > Register). > > Or was it an IBM 704? > First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1 that was less powerful. This is straight from the LISP manual on site. Bill From lars at nocrew.org Wed Oct 2 08:42:37 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:42:37 +0000 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: (Bill Degnan via cctech's message of "Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:22:45 -0400") References: <7wpnjfhlp8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wd0ffgt6a.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Bill Degnan wrote: > First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1 > that was less powerful. This is straight from the LISP manual on > site. Which LISP manual is that? The LISP I Programmer's Manual from 1960 says IBM 704. It also says "a version of LISP I is being prepared for the IBM 709". http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 10:23:20 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:23:20 -0400 Subject: Need DM11 documentation In-Reply-To: <20191002143326.0DFFE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191002143326.0DFFE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I believe that DM11 was designed by Vince Bastiani, (SP) after the DM11 he designed the UART - that is another story - with one or more vendors. The backplane - as I recall - was dedicated to the DM11 Comms interface. here is the board list M7240 DM11 U DM11-A control M7241 DM11 U DM11-B control, quad M7242 DM11 U DM11-C control M7243 DM11 U DM11 transmitter D M7244 DM11 U DM11 transmitter E M7245 DM11 U DM11 receiver, quad M7246 DM11-BB U Modem control scan, 16 lines, DM11-BB M7247 DM11-BB U Modem control MUX, 8 lines On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 10:33 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, does anyone out there have any DM11 documentation? The only thing I could > find online is the "DM11-BB model control option manual" (DEC-11-HDMBA-A-D) - > and it's the impetus for this request, actually. > > One page 1-5, pg. 15 of the PDF, it has a diagram of which boards go into > which slots on the DM11 backplane - and ir has _two_ boards marked M7245! So > something's clearly wrong. > > The DM11 is a fascinating oddball of an interface, BTW. (It's in the 1972 > edition of the "peripherals and interfacing handbook".) A lot of its internal > state is kept in main memory, and accessed via DMA! This includes the incoming > data shift registers!!! So it can really chew up a bus - probably why it was > dropped ASAP. I guess when it was done, memory in chips must have been expensive > and/or not very dense; and it must have been before the first UART chips. > > Noel > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 11:40:09 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 10:40:09 -0600 Subject: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap - WON In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190930123259.01176b40@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <049001d57328$c70ad680$55208380$@com> <3.0.6.32.20190925155655.012f03b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190925200706.01168ac8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5b203ce3-dec0-41de-2d89-87288c604b8f@charter.net> <003b01d57516$be7003c0$3b500b40$@gmail.com> <529507ff-3043-8e58-a276-a10af6a0e1fe@charter.net> <3.0.6.32.20190930123259.01176b40@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 8:33 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > That's always mystified me too. "1000 series" for model numbers like > 2108B, 2112B, 2113E, etc. > Weird corporate thinking. Maybe too much printed material with "1000" on > to change? > Or some other company had trademarked "2000 series" ? > It was the 2100 series (actual HP part numbers), and then marketing decided to call it "1000 series" as a marketing name, but not for the part numbering. "HP 2000" (and perhaps some other "HP 20nn" part numbers) and "HP 21nn" part numbers were assigned to computers. The actual "HP 1nnn" part numbers had already been assigned to other divisions and products, e.g., HP 16nn logic analyzers. The distinction between "marketing numbers" and actual HP part numbers has caused a heck of a lot of confusion over the years. Other vendors have done similar things. From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Wed Oct 2 14:36:25 2019 From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:36:25 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <7wd0ffgt6a.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <20191002193631.4CA4327421@mx1.ezwind.net> Hello List -That jives with a conversation I had with John McCarthy before he died.He said that he and friends began the LISP 1.5 (really 1.0) implementation on the IBM 709 - and we both agreed that the idea of LISP running in an enormous pile of vacuum tubes was and is amazing:)Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info. -------- Original message --------From: Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk Date: 10/2/19 07:42 (GMT-07:00) To: Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Bill Degnan wrote:> First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1> that was less powerful.? This is straight from the LISP manual on> site.Which LISP manual is that?The LISP I Programmer's Manual from 1960 says IBM 704.? It also says "aversion of LISP I is being prepared for the IBM 709".http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Wed Oct 2 14:36:25 2019 From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:36:25 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <7wd0ffgt6a.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <20191002193631.7E8044E67D@mx2.ezwind.net> Hello List -That jives with a conversation I had with John McCarthy before he died.He said that he and friends began the LISP 1.5 (really 1.0) implementation on the IBM 709 - and we both agreed that the idea of LISP running in an enormous pile of vacuum tubes was and is amazing:)Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info. -------- Original message --------From: Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk Date: 10/2/19 07:42 (GMT-07:00) To: Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Bill Degnan wrote:> First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1> that was less powerful.? This is straight from the LISP manual on> site.Which LISP manual is that?The LISP I Programmer's Manual from 1960 says IBM 704.? It also says "aversion of LISP I is being prepared for the IBM 709".http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Wed Oct 2 15:45:12 2019 From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 14:45:12 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: <20191002204518.490624E68C@mx2.ezwind.net> Correction!? IBM 704!Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info. -------- Original message --------From: Jack Harper Date: 10/2/19 13:36 (GMT-07:00) To: Lars Brinkhoff , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Hello List -That jives with a conversation I had with John McCarthy before he died.He said that he and friends began the LISP 1.5 (really 1.0) implementation on the IBM 709 - and we both agreed that the idea of LISP running in an enormous pile of vacuum tubes was and is amazing:)Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info.-------- Original message --------From: Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk Date: 10/2/19 07:42 (GMT-07:00) To: Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Bill Degnan wrote:> First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1> that was less powerful.? This is straight from the LISP manual on> site.Which LISP manual is that?The LISP I Programmer's Manual from 1960 says IBM 704.? It also says "aversion of LISP I is being prepared for the IBM 709".http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Wed Oct 2 15:45:12 2019 From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 14:45:12 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: <20191002204523.68BC627404@mx1.ezwind.net> Correction!? IBM 704!Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info. -------- Original message --------From: Jack Harper Date: 10/2/19 13:36 (GMT-07:00) To: Lars Brinkhoff , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Hello List -That jives with a conversation I had with John McCarthy before he died.He said that he and friends began the LISP 1.5 (really 1.0) implementation on the IBM 709 - and we both agreed that the idea of LISP running in an enormous pile of vacuum tubes was and is amazing:)Jack-----------------------------------------------------Jack HarperSecure Outcomes Inc2942 Evergreen ParkwaySuite 300Evergreen, Colorado 80439303.670.8375 Officewww.secureoutcomesinc.com for Product Info.-------- Original message --------From: Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk Date: 10/2/19 07:42 (GMT-07:00) To: Bill Degnan via cctech Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: Re: LISP implementations on small machines Bill Degnan wrote:> First full version 7090 and then a version was ported tot he PDP-1> that was less powerful.? This is straight from the LISP manual on> site.Which LISP manual is that?The LISP I Programmer's Manual from 1960 says IBM 704.? It also says "aversion of LISP I is being prepared for the IBM 709".http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/rle_lisp/LISP_I_Programmers_Manual_Mar60.pdf From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 2 16:07:34 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 14:07:34 -0700 Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Just wondering if anyone (Chuck, Fred?) knows what is the exact technique referred to in this other post by Raymond? devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090402-00/?p=18643 -Ali > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Christian Liendo via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 12:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache > > How did MS-DOS decide that two seconds was the amount of time to keep > the floppy disk cache valid? > > https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20190924-00/?p=102915 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 2 16:57:59 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 14:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> References: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Just wondering if anyone (Chuck, Fred?) knows what is the exact technique referred to in this other post by Raymond? > devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090402-00/?p=18643 As I understnd it, they just used a stopwatch and watched a couple of their people change disks. Since it was always 2 seconds or more, they used that as the number. Chuck, on the other hand, polled the write protect switch every 1/4 second. If it changed state, he assumed disk change. 1/4 second assumes that nobody could take out an un-write protected 5.25 (or write protected 8") in less than 1/4 second, and then later put in a different one in less than 1/4 second. Unless you also have a way to monitor door opening (SOME drives), I have an unnecessary worry that on an 8" write protected disk, you could change disks. 'course, if the disk is write protected, then you don't need to worry bout writing buffers to the wrong disk. BTW, on "Computer Bowl" quiz show, NOBODY on Bill Gates' team could answer the question of WHERE the write protect notch is on an 8" disk! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 2 17:05:42 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 15:05:42 -0700 Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: References: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Message-ID: <00c401d5796d$88e40a20$9aac1e60$@net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 2:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check > discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone (Chuck, Fred?) knows what is the exact > technique referred to in this other post by Raymond? > > devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090402-00/?p=18643 > > As I understnd it, they just used a stopwatch and watched a couple of > their people change disks. > Since it was always 2 seconds or more, they used that as the number. > > Fred, This is a different blog post. In this one he talks about how they found a way to see if a disk was inserted in the floppy drive without spinning up the motor.... Ali From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 2 17:11:15 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 15:11:15 -0700 Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> References: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Message-ID: On 10/2/19 2:07 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Just wondering if anyone (Chuck, Fred?) knows what is the exact technique referred to in this other post by Raymond? > > devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20090402-00/?p=18643 > Not enough information to know. It should be noted that one needn't spin up drives to select them and poll them. I wonder if this is the difference between "drive ready" or "disk changed" on pin 34 of the interface. -Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 2 17:15:03 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 15:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: References: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Message-ID: Sorry, I was assuming the previous discussion! This implies that some newer drives actually had a "disk present" signal, or wouldn't let you close the door without a disk, but had a door signal. Rather than an "unnecessary" training insertion, couldn't the testing of drive type have simply waited until first actual use? (a 5.25 would have shown write-protect while the disk was half in.) Whether or not a drive had "DRIVE-READY" was not reliable enough, unless you deprecated use of old drives, . . . From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 2 18:45:13 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 16:45:13 -0700 Subject: Detecting inserted floppy drive WAS: Raymond Check discusses MS DOS Floppy Disk Cache In-Reply-To: References: <00a301d57965$69ce1930$3d6a4b90$@net> Message-ID: <3cc8da1b-e338-7cca-be9c-0acb36b63b53@sydex.com> On 10/2/19 3:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, I was assuming the previous discussion! > > This implies that some newer drives actually had a "disk present" > signal, or wouldn't let you close the door without a disk, but had a > door signal. > > Rather than an "unnecessary" training insertion, couldn't the testing of > drive type have simply waited until first actual use? > (a 5.25 would have shown write-protect while the disk was half in.) > > Whether or not a drive had "DRIVE-READY" was not reliable enough, unless > you deprecated use of old drives, . . . Regardless, the Win95 solution to identifying disk changes was to attempt to rewrite the volume system ID and serial number in the boot sector on every inserted disk that was write enabled. If that screwed up the usability of the disk, well, tough luck. They called it "volume tracking". You can identify such modified disks as having the "xxxxxIHC" as the system ID, where "xxxxx" was some random value. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 2 20:59:26 2019 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:59:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > "Spectre" is one of two notorious bugs of modern CPUs involving speculative > > execution. I rather doubt that VAX is affected by this but I suspect others > > here have a lot more knowledge. > > > > > You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight differences in > execution time of speculatively-executed threads. The VAX 11/780 certainly did > not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen did not, either. The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in their microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute speculatively. > Also, I don't think the timer was high enough resolution to detect such a > difference. I can't speak of timer availability offhand though. References: [1] G. Michael Uhler et al, "The NVAX and NVAX+ High-performance VAX Microprocessors", Digital Technical Journal Vol. 4 No. 3 Summer 1992 Maciej From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 12:18:03 2019 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:18:03 +0200 Subject: SGI Challenge M memory boards Message-ID: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> Hi, Jon wrote: > I have 15 pieces of memory SIMMs for the Challenge M series > (funny, seems like there should be an even #). Pics here : > > http://pico-systems.com/images/SGIChallenge.JPG A Challenge M is basically a server variant of an Indigo2. What you have looks like memory for a Challenge L or Onyx. Dennis From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Oct 2 14:02:28 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:02:28 +0000 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> From: Mark Kahrs Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and > CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, 7044, 7094), the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the accumulator or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and could be treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit tag, and a 3 bit index selector. In the earliest implementation of LISP, there were 4 functions which returned the different parts of a register: CAR, CDR, CTR, and CIR. These were abbreviations for "Contents of the {Address, Decrement, Tag, Index} PART OF THE Register", not "Contents of the {Address, Decrement} Register" as is so often misstated. Rich NB: Information from a talk given on the history of Lisp by Herbert Stoyan at the 1984 ACM Conference on Lisp and Functional Programming Languages, and later verified by personal inspection of the code. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 19:01:44 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:01:44 -0500 Subject: Computer Automation Naked Mini circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have two Naked Minis, possible unused, That I would love to find a home for. On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 4:31 AM Roland via cctech wrote: > Hello, > I was wondering if anyone has a Computer Automation Naked Mini. > I have these boards and I have no clue what to do with it. So if anyoneis > interested please let me know. Pictures are in this vcfed topic: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?68302-Computer-Automation-Naked-Mini-circuit-boardsAlso > interested in swap with omnibus material... > > Regards, Roland > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 2 20:25:08 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 20:25:08 -0500 Subject: SGI Challenge M memory boards In-Reply-To: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> References: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> On 10/02/2019 12:18 PM, Dennis Grevenstein via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > Jon wrote: >> I have 15 pieces of memory SIMMs for the Challenge M series >> (funny, seems like there should be an even #). Pics here : >> >> http://pico-systems.com/images/SGIChallenge.JPG > A Challenge M is basically a server variant of an Indigo2. > What you have looks like memory for a Challenge L or Onyx. > > OK, it was some time ago, it well could be a Challenge L. it was a big box, and was powered by a big 28 V power supply. (Or, was it a 48 V supply?) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 2 20:53:47 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 20:53:47 -0500 Subject: ECL static RAM ( 10144L) In-Reply-To: <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> References: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5D9554AB.7080904@pico-systems.com> I have 400 pieces of Signetics 10144L ECL static RAM chips. Anybody need some? These were salvaged from boards by a surplus dealer (Alltronics, I think). They are a 256 X 1 bit RAM, somewhere around 20 ns access time, ceramic package. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 2 21:00:58 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 21:00:58 -0500 Subject: Nat Semi MM5262N available In-Reply-To: <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> References: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5D95565A.4080208@pico-systems.com> I have about 240 pieces of the national Semiconductor MM5262N 2K x 1 DRAM chips. They appear to be unused, in aluminum (not plastic) tubes. Chips are plastic packaged. 365 ns access time, 475 ns read cycle. Anybody need them to fix an old computer? Jon From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Oct 2 22:23:42 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:23:42 +1000 Subject: ECL static RAM ( 10144L) In-Reply-To: <5D9554AB.7080904@pico-systems.com> References: <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191003132342.01352270@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:53 PM 2/10/2019 -0500, you wrote: >I have 400 pieces of Signetics 10144L ECL static RAM chips. >Anybody need some? >These were salvaged from boards by a surplus dealer >(Alltronics, I think). >They are a 256 X 1 bit RAM, somewhere around 20 ns access >time, ceramic package. > >Jon I don't 'need' them, but would like them if no one else wants. Have the data, Motorola MCM10144. Some questions: * By 'salvaged' do you mean desoldered, or socket pulls with clean pins? * What are the legs like? Still maleable, or do they have pin rot? (in which corrosion under the plating makes the pins brittle and very easily breaking off.) * Whats the packing? Jumbled, in tubes, pinned in mat? Cost? Postage would be to LA, in CA. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 3 04:20:03 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:20:03 +0200 Subject: Computer Automation Naked Mini circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191003092003.wib6yosikjbq36mi@Update.UU.SE> I have a Naked Mini, where are you located? I couldn't see your images.. not sure if my vcfed account is still good. So I don't know what you have. /P On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 09:31:09AM +0000, Roland via cctech wrote: > Hello, > I was wondering if anyone has a Computer Automation Naked Mini. > I have these boards and I have no clue what to do with it. So if anyoneis interested please let me know. Pictures are in this vcfed topic: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?68302-Computer-Automation-Naked-Mini-circuit-boardsAlso interested in swap with omnibus material... > > Regards, Roland From pete at pski.net Thu Oct 3 06:28:52 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 07:28:52 -0400 Subject: Computer Automation Naked Mini circuit boards In-Reply-To: <20191003092003.wib6yosikjbq36mi@Update.UU.SE> References: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> <20191003092003.wib6yosikjbq36mi@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <484C475F-8234-49A4-9474-6B79272BB0F6@pski.net> I?d like to create a Tandy 150 replica one day since there are no known examples in existence. It was based on the Naked Mini-4 system. These boards seem to be an earlier CA product but I?m not sure. Anyone here know for certain? http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?66885-The-Rarest-Tandy-Computer-of-them-All-The-Tandy-150/page2 Pete > On Oct 3, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > I have a Naked Mini, where are you located? > > I couldn't see your images.. not sure if my vcfed account is still good. > So I don't know what you have. > > /P > >> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 09:31:09AM +0000, Roland via cctech wrote: >> Hello, >> I was wondering if anyone has a Computer Automation Naked Mini. >> I have these boards and I have no clue what to do with it. So if anyoneis interested please let me know. Pictures are in this vcfed topic: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?68302-Computer-Automation-Naked-Mini-circuit-boardsAlso interested in swap with omnibus material... >> >> Regards, Roland From pete at pski.net Thu Oct 3 06:28:52 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 07:28:52 -0400 Subject: Computer Automation Naked Mini circuit boards In-Reply-To: <20191003092003.wib6yosikjbq36mi@Update.UU.SE> References: <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1801689587.1571028.1570008669918@mail.yahoo.com> <20191003092003.wib6yosikjbq36mi@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <484C475F-8234-49A4-9474-6B79272BB0F6@pski.net> I?d like to create a Tandy 150 replica one day since there are no known examples in existence. It was based on the Naked Mini-4 system. These boards seem to be an earlier CA product but I?m not sure. Anyone here know for certain? http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?66885-The-Rarest-Tandy-Computer-of-them-All-The-Tandy-150/page2 Pete > On Oct 3, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > I have a Naked Mini, where are you located? > > I couldn't see your images.. not sure if my vcfed account is still good. > So I don't know what you have. > > /P > >> On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 09:31:09AM +0000, Roland via cctech wrote: >> Hello, >> I was wondering if anyone has a Computer Automation Naked Mini. >> I have these boards and I have no clue what to do with it. So if anyoneis interested please let me know. Pictures are in this vcfed topic: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?68302-Computer-Automation-Naked-Mini-circuit-boardsAlso interested in swap with omnibus material... >> >> Regards, Roland From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Oct 3 07:25:03 2019 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:25:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight differences in > > execution time of speculatively-executed threads. The VAX 11/780 certainly did > > not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen did not, either. > > The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in their > microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute speculatively. For the record: in NVAX prediction does not extend beyond the instruction fetch unit (I-box in VAX-speak), so there's actually no speculative execution, but only speculative prefetch. Maciej From david at kdbarto.org Thu Oct 3 07:35:48 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 05:35:48 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> References: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <9FDD2830-71CB-45DC-ACF9-7414AC177FC0@kdbarto.org> Thanks for that bit of historical information. Things always make more sense in context. When I learned lisp on a B6700 it was hard to understand and harder to program. With this bit of context lisp now makes a lot more sense, and looking back if I knew this then I?m sure I would have grasped the language much more quickly. David > On Oct 2, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Rich Alderson via cctech wrote: > > From: Mark Kahrs > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > >> The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and >> CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). > > In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, 7044, 7094), > the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the accumulator > or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and could be > treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit tag, and a > 3 bit index selector. > > In the earliest implementation of LISP, there were 4 functions which returned > the different parts of a register: CAR, CDR, CTR, and CIR. These were > abbreviations for "Contents of the {Address, Decrement, Tag, Index} PART OF THE > Register", not "Contents of the {Address, Decrement} Register" as is so often > misstated. > > Rich > > NB: Information from a talk given on the history of Lisp by Herbert Stoyan at > the 1984 ACM Conference on Lisp and Functional Programming Languages, and later > verified by personal inspection of the code. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 3 08:45:46 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:45:46 -0400 Subject: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4FE20BEC-65B0-4355-A228-FEBF99FA6921@comcast.net> > On Oct 3, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > >>> You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight differences in >>> execution time of speculatively-executed threads. The VAX 11/780 certainly did >>> not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen did not, either. >> >> The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in their >> microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute speculatively. > > For the record: in NVAX prediction does not extend beyond the instruction > fetch unit (I-box in VAX-speak), so there's actually no speculative > execution, but only speculative prefetch. That's a key point. These vulnerabilities are quite complex and details matter. They depend on speculation that goes far enough to make data references that produce cache fills, and that those fills persist after the speculative references have been voided. Branch prediction is only the first step, and as you point out, that alone is nowhere near enough. For example, if a particular design did speculative execution but not speculative memory references on adresses that miss in the cache, you'd still have no issue. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 3 08:50:34 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:50:34 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> References: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <2EAB4788-54FC-441A-B427-9256EA042BEA@comcast.net> > On Oct 2, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mark Kahrs > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > >> The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and >> CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). > > In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, 7044, 7094), > the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the accumulator > or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and could be > treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit tag, and a > 3 bit index selector. While we now think of "register" as a specific bit of hardware distinct from memory, that isn't necessary. The term makes perfect sense as a small set of storage elements that are treated differently than main memory in the instruction set. For example, the IBM 1620 has no registers (the ISA only references main memory). Some early machines, the PDP-6 I believe is an example, have "registers" in the ISA but they actually correspond to specific parts of main memory. Ditto the Philips PR-8000, which has 8 sets of 8 registers (one set for each interrupt priority level) actually implemented in locations 0-63 of main memory. In a 1948 computer architecture course. Adriaan van Wijngaarden referred to "fast memory" for what we now call registers; that document in effect is an early discussion of memory hierarchy. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 3 08:50:34 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:50:34 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> References: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <2EAB4788-54FC-441A-B427-9256EA042BEA@comcast.net> > On Oct 2, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mark Kahrs > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > >> The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and >> CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). > > In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, 7044, 7094), > the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the accumulator > or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and could be > treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit tag, and a > 3 bit index selector. While we now think of "register" as a specific bit of hardware distinct from memory, that isn't necessary. The term makes perfect sense as a small set of storage elements that are treated differently than main memory in the instruction set. For example, the IBM 1620 has no registers (the ISA only references main memory). Some early machines, the PDP-6 I believe is an example, have "registers" in the ISA but they actually correspond to specific parts of main memory. Ditto the Philips PR-8000, which has 8 sets of 8 registers (one set for each interrupt priority level) actually implemented in locations 0-63 of main memory. In a 1948 computer architecture course. Adriaan van Wijngaarden referred to "fast memory" for what we now call registers; that document in effect is an early discussion of memory hierarchy. paul From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Oct 3 09:39:13 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 16:39:13 +0200 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> References: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <244247241b0c19080b89d91008cd5abce0eaf447.camel@agj.net> ons 2019-10-02 klockan 19:02 +0000 skrev Rich Alderson via cctalk: > From: Mark Kahrs > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > > > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence > > CAR and > > CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement > > Register). > > In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, > 7044, 7094), > the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the > accumulator > or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and > could be > treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit > tag, and a > 3 bit index selector. > > In the earliest implementation of LISP, there were 4 functions which > returned > the different parts of a register: CAR, CDR, CTR, and CIR. These > were > abbreviations for "Contents of the {Address, Decrement, Tag, Index} > PART OF THE > Register", not "Contents of the {Address, Decrement} Register" as is > so often > misstated. > > Rich > > NB: Information from a talk given on the history of Lisp by Herbert > Stoyan at > the 1984 ACM Conference on Lisp and Functional Programming Languages, > and later > verified by personal inspection of the code. It seems that simh has prebuilt ibm 70xx machines with lisp installed. https://simh.trailing-edge.narkive.com/WiVs5570/release-of-a-set-of-simulators-for-ibm-7000-series-mainframes From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Oct 3 09:39:13 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 16:39:13 +0200 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> References: <922eac6bda9a4865b80ad3012fbb8a6f@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <244247241b0c19080b89d91008cd5abce0eaf447.camel@agj.net> ons 2019-10-02 klockan 19:02 +0000 skrev Rich Alderson via cctalk: > From: Mark Kahrs > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 7:24 PM > > > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence > > CAR and > > CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement > > Register). > > In the 70x series of IBM scientific systems (704, 709, 7040, 7090, > 7044, 7094), > the word "register" referred to memory locations rather than to the > accumulator > or multiplier/quotient. Each memory register was 36 bits long, and > could be > treated as 4 fields: A 15 bit address, a 15 bit decrement, a 3 bit > tag, and a > 3 bit index selector. > > In the earliest implementation of LISP, there were 4 functions which > returned > the different parts of a register: CAR, CDR, CTR, and CIR. These > were > abbreviations for "Contents of the {Address, Decrement, Tag, Index} > PART OF THE > Register", not "Contents of the {Address, Decrement} Register" as is > so often > misstated. > > Rich > > NB: Information from a talk given on the history of Lisp by Herbert > Stoyan at > the 1984 ACM Conference on Lisp and Functional Programming Languages, > and later > verified by personal inspection of the code. It seems that simh has prebuilt ibm 70xx machines with lisp installed. https://simh.trailing-edge.narkive.com/WiVs5570/release-of-a-set-of-simulators-for-ibm-7000-series-mainframes From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Oct 3 09:55:52 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 16:55:52 +0200 Subject: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: <4FE20BEC-65B0-4355-A228-FEBF99FA6921@comcast.net> References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> <4FE20BEC-65B0-4355-A228-FEBF99FA6921@comcast.net> Message-ID: <322c3cf5a61bc6e87496acaa3c2264c20cec244e.camel@agj.net> tor 2019-10-03 klockan 09:45 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > > On Oct 3, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki > > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > > > > > You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight > > > > differences in > > > > execution time of speculatively-executed threads. The VAX > > > > 11/780 certainly did > > > > not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen > > > > did not, either. > > > > > > The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in > > > their > > > microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute speculatively. > > > > For the record: in NVAX prediction does not extend beyond the > > instruction > > fetch unit (I-box in VAX-speak), so there's actually no > > speculative > > execution, but only speculative prefetch. > > That's a key point. These vulnerabilities are quite complex and > details matter. They depend on speculation that goes far enough to > make data references that produce cache fills, and that those fills > persist after the speculative references have been voided. > > Branch prediction is only the first step, and as you point out, that > alone is nowhere near enough. For example, if a particular design > did speculative execution but not speculative memory references on > adresses that miss in the cache, you'd still have no issue. > Can the speculative pre-fetch of instruction trigger cache fills ? From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 3 10:28:09 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:28:09 -0400 Subject: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: <322c3cf5a61bc6e87496acaa3c2264c20cec244e.camel@agj.net> References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> <4FE20BEC-65B0-4355-A228-FEBF99FA6921@comcast.net> <322c3cf5a61bc6e87496acaa3c2264c20cec244e.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <77AF1D79-50F0-4D82-8DD0-63B7D22FABFC@comcast.net> > On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > tor 2019-10-03 klockan 09:45 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: >>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >>> >>>>> You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight >>>>> differences in >>>>> execution time of speculatively-executed threads. The VAX >>>>> 11/780 certainly did >>>>> not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen >>>>> did not, either. >>>> >>>> The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in >>>> their >>>> microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute speculatively. >>> >>> For the record: in NVAX prediction does not extend beyond the >>> instruction >>> fetch unit (I-box in VAX-speak), so there's actually no >>> speculative >>> execution, but only speculative prefetch. >> >> That's a key point. These vulnerabilities are quite complex and >> details matter. They depend on speculation that goes far enough to >> make data references that produce cache fills, and that those fills >> persist after the speculative references have been voided. >> >> Branch prediction is only the first step, and as you point out, that >> alone is nowhere near enough. For example, if a particular design >> did speculative execution but not speculative memory references on >> adresses that miss in the cache, you'd still have no issue. >> > > Can the speculative pre-fetch of instruction trigger cache fills ? I don't know, but that isn't relevant to the Spectre issue. That one need speculative data loads, visible via a timing channel to user mode code. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 3 10:52:37 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:52:37 +0100 Subject: VAX + Spectre In-Reply-To: <77AF1D79-50F0-4D82-8DD0-63B7D22FABFC@comcast.net> References: <20190917093242.GA3418@SDF.ORG> <21F0E611-E49F-422A-9D66-EDBA660AD106@comcast.net> <5D810039.4070105@pico-systems.com> <4FE20BEC-65B0-4355-A228-FEBF99FA6921@comcast.net> <322c3cf5a61bc6e87496acaa3c2264c20cec244e.camel@agj.net> <77AF1D79-50F0-4D82-8DD0-63B7D22FABFC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <05b701d57a02$95016ec0$bf044c40$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via > cctalk > Sent: 03 October 2019 16:28 > To: Stefan Skoglund > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX + Spectre > > > > > On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Stefan Skoglund > wrote: > > > > tor 2019-10-03 klockan 09:45 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > >>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > >>> > >>>>> You need an extremely high resolution timer to detect slight > >>>>> differences in execution time of speculatively-executed threads. > >>>>> The VAX > >>>>> 11/780 certainly did > >>>>> not do speculative execution, and my guess is that all VAXen did > >>>>> not, either. > >>>> > >>>> The NVAX and NVAX+ implementations include a branch predictor in > >>>> their microarchitecture[1], so obviously they do execute > >>>> speculatively. > >>> > >>> For the record: in NVAX prediction does not extend beyond the > >>> instruction fetch unit (I-box in VAX-speak), so there's actually no > >>> speculative execution, but only speculative prefetch. > >> > >> That's a key point. These vulnerabilities are quite complex and > >> details matter. They depend on speculation that goes far enough to > >> make data references that produce cache fills, and that those fills > >> persist after the speculative references have been voided. > >> > >> Branch prediction is only the first step, and as you point out, that > >> alone is nowhere near enough. For example, if a particular design > >> did speculative execution but not speculative memory references on > >> adresses that miss in the cache, you'd still have no issue. > >> > > > > Can the speculative pre-fetch of instruction trigger cache fills ? > > I don't know, but that isn't relevant to the Spectre issue. That one need > speculative data loads, visible via a timing channel to user mode code. > > paul Whilst , of course, nothing has been done for VAX VSI have checked to see if OpenVMS in Alpha, Itanium or AMD64 are susceptible... http://vmssoftware.com/pdfs/news/Customer_Letter_2018_Meltdown_Spectre.pdf Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 3 11:01:39 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Some early machines, the PDP-6 I believe is an example, have > "registers" in the ISA but they actually correspond to specific parts > of main memory. The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has a similar "fast memory option". Noel From ethan at 757.org Thu Oct 3 11:34:16 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SGI Challenge M memory boards In-Reply-To: <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> References: <236C02CC-D19B-45B8-836A-86480345C7A1@gmail.com> <5D954DF4.20307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > OK, it was some time ago, it well could be a Challenge L. it was a big box, > and was powered by a big 28 V power supply. (Or, was it a 48 V supply?) > Jon It should be 48v. A 9uish VME style card cage. The Challenge XL / Full rack Onyx and the Onyx / Challenge L should all share the same memory. All those machines are pretty cool. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 3 11:39:57 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:39:57 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/19 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) > both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also > had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast > Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has > a similar "fast memory option". A bit more contemporary example might be the low-end PIC microcontrollers (e.g. the 12F series). Harvard architecture (14 bit instructions, 8 bit data), but data is variously described as "registers" (when used an instruction operand) or "memory" when addressed indirectly. That is, the 64 bytes of SRAM can be referred to as either a memory location or as a register operand. This isn't unusual--the original STAR-100 had 256 64-bit registers that could be addressed as register storage or as the first 256 words of memory. Eventually, this capability was disabled (the so-called "Rev. R" ECO) because of conflicts in usage. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 3 12:15:53 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:15:53 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <46e5e913-073d-206f-23bc-98788b0313e6@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/3/2019 10:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > Some early machines, the PDP-6 I believe is an example, have > > "registers" in the ISA but they actually correspond to specific parts > > of main memory. > > The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) > both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also > had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast > Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has > a similar "fast memory option". > > Noel The PDP-5 how soon theyy forget. The PC was in core memory for sure. Not sure about the AC how ever. The IBM 1130 had the index registers in Core at something like 1,2,3. Today Fast memory is .4 ps. I wonder how the old machines would compare with today's wonder CPU's assuming the same transistor speeds.Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 3 12:26:34 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:26:34 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <122A78B6-E74D-44AF-9039-53EA8FE556E0@comcast.net> > On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/3/19 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) >> both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also >> had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast >> Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has >> a similar "fast memory option". > > A bit more contemporary example might be the low-end PIC > microcontrollers (e.g. the 12F series). Harvard architecture (14 bit > instructions, 8 bit data), but data is variously described as > "registers" (when used an instruction operand) or "memory" when > addressed indirectly. That is, the 64 bytes of SRAM can be referred to > as either a memory location or as a register operand. Then again, the PDP-10 has that "two ways to refer to it" as well. In that case, you do have dedicated register logic, and what happens is that memory addresses 0-15 are instead redirected to the register array. The same applies to the EL-X8. The way you can address things doesn't necessarily tell you what sort of storage mechanism is used for it. paul From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Oct 3 12:38:17 2019 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:38:17 -0500 Subject: Tandem Minicomputers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191003173817.GA14270@RawFedDogs.net> Jason, On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 11:46:03PM -0500, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > There's such as thing as "so obscure that no one knows/cares about > it". I've had those before. Do I have another? It sure is heavy. I've been curious about Tandem systems for years. I had the opportunity to use a Tandem system briefly a couple of decades ago as an end user in freight bill entry and driver check in. I remember very little about the system, other than the exit key from most, if not all, screens was F16. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 3 13:04:24 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:04:24 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <122A78B6-E74D-44AF-9039-53EA8FE556E0@comcast.net> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <122A78B6-E74D-44AF-9039-53EA8FE556E0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41E2D0DE-1216-47A8-BDD0-E129E5822AEC@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/3/19 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) >>> both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also >>> had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast >>> Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has >>> a similar "fast memory option". >> >> A bit more contemporary example might be the low-end PIC >> microcontrollers (e.g. the 12F series). Harvard architecture (14 bit >> instructions, 8 bit data), but data is variously described as >> "registers" (when used an instruction operand) or "memory" when >> addressed indirectly. That is, the 64 bytes of SRAM can be referred to >> as either a memory location or as a register operand. > > Then again, the PDP-10 has that "two ways to refer to it" as well. In that case, you do have dedicated register logic, and what happens is that memory addresses 0-15 are instead redirected to the register array. The same applies to the EL-X8. The way you can address things doesn't necessarily tell you what sort of storage mechanism is used for it. > So does the PDP-11. The 8 registers are mapped to the top 8 words of memory so you can do some quite interesting things. It is also possible to run a (small) program in only the registers (e.g. no memory at all). TTFN - Guy From phil at ultimate.com Thu Oct 3 19:15:04 2019 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 20:15:04 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201910040015.x940F4Eg076658@ultimate.com> Noel wrote: > The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) > both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also > had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast > Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has > a similar "fast memory option". http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-HMAA-D%20PDP-10%20KA10%20Central%20Processor%20Maintenance%20Manual%20Volume%20I.pdf p 1-1 (pdf pg 13) says the CPU options were: KE10 Extended Order Code (byte instructions) KT10 Memory Protection and Relocation KT10A Double Memory Protection and Relocation KM10 Fast Registers Elsewhere I have the note the the fast registers had 0.21 microsecond access time. From sieler at allegro.com Fri Oct 4 01:16:53 2019 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:16:53 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: David...where did you use Lisp on a B6700? Bill Gord and I wrote the first INTERLISP interpreter for the B6700 back around 1974-1975, on a DARPA contract, at UCSD. (At the start, it was to implement BBNLISP, but the name changed during the project :) DARPA found that researchers using INTERLISP (or others) on Dec PDP10s (and similar) were hampered by the limited address space (256K virtual memory). The B6700 offered a significantly larger address space (and many other features, of course :) (I know our LISP got distributed to other Burroughs sites in those days, just like our STARTREK and Bob Jardine's SOLAR.) Danny Bobrow (with Xerox PARC at the time) came and helped us get started. I met Warren Teitelman ... he had no idea that the cover of the INTERLISP manual was an homage to his last name. (See: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/interlisp/Interlisp_Reference_Manual_Oct_1974.pdf ) We got our system up and running, including DWIM and other packages, and were told ... oops, DEC figured out how to expand the amount of virtual memory on the PDP-10, so we don't need to buy Burroughs mainframes now! Our INTERLISP was a full interpreter, and also had a compiler to LISP p-code, which might have inspired UCSD Pascal's p-code (Ken Bowles was our boss). I believe I have the source, in Burroughs ALGOL. As a side bonus, I got to interact with Danny, and people from PARC and BBN as we were watching other UCSD Computer Center people put the B6700 on the ARPANET. (I think we were something like the 25th computer.) Stan Sieler From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 4 01:56:02 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 23:56:02 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8e77e1a7-f5c8-4903-3d34-7883197a1964@jwsss.com> On 10/1/2019 7:23 PM, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > The first implementation was done for the 7090 by McCarthy (hence CAR and > CDR --- Contents of Address Register and Contents of Decrement Register). > > If you want to see a tiny implementation then look for the PDP-1 > implementation done by L Peter Deutsch. There's a book chapter and then I > found this report: > > http://s3data.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/DEC.pdp_1.1964.102650371.pdf When I was at UMR a couple of students wrote a Lisp interpreter for the Micro 1600 running the 1621 firmware.? It had the missing feature that there was no garbage collect, and would die when the cells storage ran out.? Very quickly. They then added paging to a 5mb dynex and used the entire space of the bottom platter, at 2.5mb and ran a lot longer with paging. And they then added a firmware assist to do a couple of operations if they were recognized, and it supposedly ran a bit faster, but with disk paging, hard to tell. I could try to dig up the source if anyone is interested and share it.? I've got an emulator which runs the OS and firmware for the 1621 and it's on my list of programs to resurrect and get running. FWIW, I had soaked up enough lisp from this and a version which ran in batch on the 360/50 MVT system that I knew it well enough to be dangerous on the Multics system at the University of Southwestern Louisiana, Lafayette, LA It of course ran maclisp.? The main thing that was fun to play with there was macsyma.? When Professor Jerry Saltzer visited the site was grateful to visit with him as he had a lot to do with the system and macsyma in particular. Forget Eliza and such, if you had macsyma in 1975, you'd swear you were talking to something out of this world.? I also remembered enough of my math to run it thru a lot of problems and it was able to figure them out, even with some trickery. There is a version for the Multics Emulator, but I don't think the version I could have saved in 1975 was saved.? I hope to get that running at some point (most likely after someone else gets it running, as macsyma isn't a program for the faint hearted to try to get running). thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 03:07:03 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 03:07:03 -0500 Subject: Off topic- precision tooling Message-ID: I have a sizable quantity or tooling for sale or trade including : circular blades, mostly Levin, 1 1/4 d, 1/4 arbor from .008 to 03 and probably others. drill bits- Levin. 13mm, .0028" etc.and 15 tubes only some labeled, B & D, Cleveland decimal sets, Precision twist and other companies sizes 60 through over 100 or so.. Morris taps and dies, 0-80 through 0000-160, about 20 sizes. Most are new, but a few might be used. If you have any interest, contact me off list. If there enough interest I'll try to make a detailed list. They are a pain for me to work with, but cheap to ship. I also have larger size taps, die , and bits up to 1 1/2 or so, I think a #3 or #4 Morse taper Thanks, Paul From david at kdbarto.org Fri Oct 4 06:43:42 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:43:42 -0700 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> 1976, UCSD. So I was using your Lisp. I got a position on the UCSD Pascal project half way through that year (reunion in just 2 weeks). So I?m very familiar with the p-code and how all that works as well. In 1978 I discovered Unix on a 780 in the 4th(?) floor lab and made the switch from Pascal to C. Been a hard core Unix developer ever since. As a result my name appears in almost all Apple products in the legal section. David > On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:16 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > > David...where did you use Lisp on a B6700? > > Bill Gord and I wrote the first INTERLISP interpreter for the B6700 back around > 1974-1975, on a DARPA contract, at UCSD. (At the start, it was to implement BBNLISP, > but the name changed during the project :) > > DARPA found that researchers using INTERLISP (or others) on Dec PDP10s (and similar) were hampered by the limited address space (256K virtual memory). The B6700 offered a significantly larger address space (and many other features, of course :) > (I know our LISP got distributed to other Burroughs sites in those days, > just like our STARTREK and Bob Jardine's SOLAR.) > > Danny Bobrow (with Xerox PARC at the time) came and helped us get started. > I met Warren Teitelman ... he had no idea that the cover of the INTERLISP manual was an homage to his last name. (See: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/interlisp/Interlisp_Reference_Manual_Oct_1974.pdf ) > > We got our system up and running, including DWIM and other packages, and were told ... oops, DEC figured out how to expand the amount of virtual memory on the PDP-10, so we don't need to buy Burroughs mainframes now! > > Our INTERLISP was a full interpreter, and also had a compiler to LISP p-code, which might have inspired UCSD Pascal's p-code (Ken Bowles was our boss). > > I believe I have the source, in Burroughs ALGOL. > > As a side bonus, I got to interact with Danny, and people from PARC and BBN as we were watching other UCSD Computer Center people put the B6700 on the ARPANET. (I think we were something like the 25th computer.) > > Stan Sieler > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 4 08:10:15 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 08:10:15 -0500 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> References: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <20191004131040.E7EA34E7CA@mx2.ezwind.net> At 06:43 AM 10/4/2019, David via cctalk wrote: >1976, UCSD. So I was using your Lisp. > >I got a position on the UCSD Pascal project half way through that year (reunion in just 2 weeks). So I???m very familiar with the p-code and how all that works as well. UCSD Pascal reunion, Saturday October 19: https://homecoming.ucsd.edu/s/1170/hc19/interior.aspx?sid=1170&gid=1&pgid=9890&cid=21379&ecid=21379&crid=0&calpgid=9411&calcid=20541 - John From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 09:47:28 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 11:47:28 -0300 Subject: [OT] Looking for a CHEAP Metcal WS1 workstand Message-ID: Subject says all =) ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 14:56:08 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 13:56:08 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <41E2D0DE-1216-47A8-BDD0-E129E5822AEC@shiresoft.com> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <122A78B6-E74D-44AF-9039-53EA8FE556E0@comcast.net> <41E2D0DE-1216-47A8-BDD0-E129E5822AEC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 12:04 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So does the PDP-11. The 8 registers are mapped to the top 8 words of > memory so you can do some quite interesting things. It is also possible to > run a (small) program in only the registers (e.g. no memory at all). > That's not an actual PDP-11 architectural feature, and it only works on the KD-11B CPU (PDP-11/05 and 11/10). No other models can execute code from the general purpose registers, or access the GPRs via a memory address. When an instruction word is fetched from a GPR, the PC is only incremented by one, because the 16-bit registers are at consecutive addresses, rather than multiples of two as one would expect. The GPRs are not byte-addressable. On all other Unibus PDP-11 processors made from TTL (i.e., not based on the F11 or J11), the general-purpose registers can be accessed at the same addresses from the console, but NOT from software. Code can be executed from the MMU PAR registers on processors with 22-bit addressing (11/23, 11/24, 11/44, 11/70, and J-11 based systems). These are word registers at word addresses, so they don't have the increment-by-one hack of the 11/05 executing from GPRs. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 4 15:25:20 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LISP implementations on small machines Message-ID: <20191004202520.9842B18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > Code can be executed from the MMU PAR registers on processors with > 22-bit addressing (11/23, 11/24, 11/44, 11/70, and J-11 based systems). My QBUS machine is apart at the moment, so I can't verify this before posting, but I don't think this hack works on the J-11 machines; I documented this behaviour here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KDJ11_CPUs#Code_in_PARs It does work with F-11 processors (/23, etc). Not sure about model A F-11's, which only have 18-bit QBUS addressing. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 15:32:01 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:32:01 -0600 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <20191004202520.9842B18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191004202520.9842B18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I wrote: > Code can be executed from the MMU PAR registers on processors with > 22-bit addressing (11/23, 11/24, 11/44, 11/70, and J-11 based systems). > On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 2:25 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My QBUS machine is apart at the moment, so I can't verify this before > posting, but I don't think this hack works on the J-11 machines; > You're correct, I misremembered. F-11 and TTL machines with 22-bit addressing can execute out of the PARs, but the J-11 cannot. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 5 12:04:55 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 13:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest Message-ID: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This is a long shot, but... There was an Able Computer document at VCF Midwest, and through a miscommunication, it wound up on the 'free' pile. Did anyone here get it? If so, I'd like to try and get it scanned in, and made available. The thing is that documentation for Able products is hyper-rare; we only have those for the UNIVERTER and QNIVERTER, and some preliminary notes for the ENABLE. So if this can somehow be located... And while I'm at it, if anyone has any documentation on other Able products (there's a list here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Able_Computer which I think is fairly complete), it would be great to get that scanned in too. (Not advertising brochures, we have a couple of them.) Thanks! Noel From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 5 20:28:55 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 20:28:55 -0500 Subject: Looking for front panel switch Message-ID: <6D6525B8DB7744DC9FF36F3A41EB121F@CharlesHPLaptop> This fall I decided to restore my first homebrewed computer that I made 40(!) years ago and still have... a 2 MHz 8080A, 1K of static RAM, a 1702A (256 byte) EPROM, cobbled up an S-100 connector for a VB-1B video card, an 8-bit I/O port that used an EBCDIC keyboard (ASCII translation table in the EPROM), and of course a hand-made front panel PC board with blinkenlights & switches. I had a good time learning assembly language (and hand-assembling)... I also toggled in WADUZITDO once or twice. That's a functional interpreted language in 256 bytes plus char in/out routine, for the youngsters ;) I sold the VB-1B years ago, and can't find the keyboard which got lost in a move years ago. So if I want to play with small 8080 programs, I'll need to add a UART (and redo the primitive monitor program for serial I/O instead of memory-mapped display). Recently I bought one of Martin Eberhard's ME-1702A boards with pre-programmed PIC, acquired all the parts from junkbox and Mouser, and just got THAT working. Surprisingly enough, the monitor seems to still have all the right bits after 40 years. Anyway. At some earlier time, I'd either lost (or cannibalized for a PDP-8) one of the switches. Subminiature SPDT toggle switches are readily available from C&K and Mountain, but I cannot find one with the four-pin mounting bracket and the "ears" to hold the paddle lever pivots. Attached is a picture showing part of the front panel. https://imgur.com/bIrmZt7 Does anyone have a matching switch they're not using? I have a spare black lever, but it's supposed to be blue for that nibble which would be even better ;) Thanks for any help. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 5 23:02:29 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 21:02:29 -0700 Subject: Looking for front panel switch In-Reply-To: <6D6525B8DB7744DC9FF36F3A41EB121F@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <6D6525B8DB7744DC9FF36F3A41EB121F@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <76a32b75-e9e9-b291-8a1a-bb7a88b6528a@sydex.com> Looks like a C&K model with a J60 type actuator and a PCB mount. Something like this? https://www.tedss.com/MT-SPDT-7101 C&K has a bewildering selection of actuators and mounting options, so I'm just venturing a wild guess. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 6 01:17:49 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 00:17:49 -0600 Subject: Looking for front panel switch-- front panels In-Reply-To: <6D6525B8DB7744DC9FF36F3A41EB121F@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <6D6525B8DB7744DC9FF36F3A41EB121F@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <591d9d8c-da9b-4ff1-7a63-37271c67379d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/5/2019 7:28 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a matching switch they're not using? I have a spare > black lever, but it's supposed to be blue for that nibble which would be > even better ;) > Thanks for any help. > Surplus is not what it was 40 years ago. Several people are rehashing the old 8 bit stuff again,in FPGA's but with CMOS 22v10's you can do a lot of logic for weird machines. How about a 6/12 bit trinary computer. Switches up/off/down and leds red/off/green.That would be cool front panel and display. Ben. PS: 16 Switches wanted. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 6 03:22:20 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:22:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest In-Reply-To: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, Noel Chiappa wrote: > The thing is that documentation for Able products is hyper-rare; we only have > those for the UNIVERTER and QNIVERTER, and some preliminary notes for the > ENABLE. So if this can somehow be located... And what about the stuff on bitsavers? I personally have the documentation for the Quadrasync/E and I think that I have that scanned, but I need to look. Christian From wrm at dW.co.za Sun Oct 6 01:21:34 2019 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 08:21:34 +0200 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20191006081843.05bded88@mail.dW.co.za> Hi all From a friend's estate I have a Motorola 24-pin 0.6" purple ceramic DIP. SCM44506L 7610 B Any idea what this can be? W From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 6 08:13:46 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest Message-ID: <20191006131346.0471218C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Corti >> we only have those for the UNIVERTER and QNIVERTER > And what about the stuff on bitsavers? That's where I got my copies of the UNIVERTER and QNIVERTER docs. I guess I missed grabbing a few; and I see a few more have been added since I last looked: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/able/ So we also have the Quadrasync, DH/DM, MICROVERTER and UNIMAP. There are still quite a few missing, though... Noel From tsraguso at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 09:32:41 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:32:41 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update on the vintage computer warehouse: I have found some very rare and interesting items inside the warehouse. These include a Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL-810 mainframe from about 1967, along with its Teletype model 33 ASR. I have also identified some of the IBM punch-card machines. There are two IBM 552 Interpreters, manufactured between 1937 and 1957, as well as an IBM 083 Card Sorter. Additionally, there is a complete Alpha Micro system with the disk drive. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Thomas Raguso On Sun, Sep 22, 2019, 2:40 PM Thomas Raguso wrote: > This is my first of many posts that I will make about this sale. > > I am liquidating a large warehouse filled with vintage computers including > Apple, DEC, IBM, Commodore, Tandy/Radio Shack, HP, and more. Many items are > currently inaccessible due to large piles of junk and video games. > > So far, I have found: > > Apple Lisa 2 > Tandy 6000 HD > IBM 5251 Keyboard > MicroVAX 3900 (currently inaccessible) > MicroVAX II (currently inaccessible) > Cromemco System One > Ohio Scientific Challenger 2p > Lots of Apple II series > IBM 5110 > Piles of VT100s > Even more VT220, VT320 > Northstar Advantage > Osborne 1 > Various Kaypros > PC clones > Commodore B-Series > Just about every kind of TRS-80 > IBM XT with monitor in box > NeXT cube > Almost every type of Macintosh > Amigas > IBM PS/2 P70 > HP 3000 (inaccessible) > 1970s HP computers > Boxes filled with Cromemco and Northstar manuals > A pallet of 1980s PC clones (inaccessible) > > Heaps of CRT monitors > > Mechanical Keyboards > At least 20 Apple Extended Keyboard II's > > I have barely scratched the surface of the warehouse, and will keep you > updated when I find more items, or am able to move the large systems. > > The DEC terminals are not yet for sale, since I have not yet found the > keyboards. > > I am not taking offers on the entire warehouse at this time. > > Please feel free to text me with questions > > > Thomas Raguso > > (832) 374-2803 > > > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 6 12:15:29 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 12:15:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for front panel switch Message-ID: > https://www.tedss.com/MT-SPDT-7101 Thanks :) It's only slightly different (the mounting pins look to be a bit closer together than my switches dated 1975, but I can drill a couple holes in the PC board, and swap my matching lever onto it.) Certainly a lot closer than the totally non-matching chrome bat handle unit I stuck in there for now! -Charles -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 17:09:16 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:09:16 -0500 Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest In-Reply-To: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 12:05 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > There was an Able Computer document at VCF Midwest, and through a > miscommunication, it wound up on the 'free' pile. Did anyone here get it? > If so, I'd like to try and get it scanned in, and made available. Do we know where the docs were before they hit the Free Pile? I took home a few boxes of Will D's DECdocs, which I can double-check to make sure yours didn't intermix. Otherwise, stuff flew off the Pile as fast as it was placed there. Also, didn't know you were at the show. Thanks for coming out! j From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 22:24:12 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 23:24:12 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to prison. Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is not free. You can download the air and install the air and use the air, but noone can help you do it or they will spend 15months in federal prison and pay 3/4 of a million beans in damages for helping you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for the electricity it cost to put the air in. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWKQFYkdzbg9xvWhvRVkSuq4 Jeff From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 08:16:59 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:16:59 -0400 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20191006081843.05bded88@mail.dW.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20191006081843.05bded88@mail.dW.co.za> Message-ID: > From a friend's estate I have a Motorola 24-pin 0.6" purple ceramic DIP. > > SCM44506L > 7610 B > > Any idea what this can be? Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. -- Will From dwcar49us at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 13:43:59 2019 From: dwcar49us at yahoo.com (David Carroll) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:43:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Computer Automation Alpha LSI minicomputer References: <1784993544.4401853.1570387439778.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1784993544.4401853.1570387439778@mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I am restoring a Computer Automation Alpha LSI/2 minicomputer and need some help with software documentation.?I have a?Computer Automation Alpha LSI/2 minicomputer and cards, and I have binary images of the paper tapes, but I don't have the manual for using the software library tools. By any chance does anyone have any of the documentation for the standard software library that came with the machine? BLD, OMEGA, LAMBDA, STP, etc? There was a standard paper tape that had all the basic software for assembly language coding and for loading and linking. The tape images are on bitsavers.org, but the manuals don't seem to be available. The manual was called the Software Documentation Manual.? Thanks for your help. David Carroll From w9gb at icloud.com Sun Oct 6 13:30:12 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 13:30:12 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Looking for front panel switch Message-ID: <29B606C7-7BAF-4F5A-9FD4-AF210E72B01B@icloud.com> ??Many of the classic Rocker & Lever Actuator switches from the 1960s & 1970s were discontinued, due to industry consolidation (M&A) in 1990s and the convert or obsolete decisions (RoHS compliance), a decade later. This likely means you will need to ?adopt? to current offerings == OR == plow through remaining discontinued surplus parts. For example, Mendelsons only lists about 5% of their Dayton warehouse inventory. https://meci.com/electronics/parts/switches/rocker.html == These Large Actuators are sometimes referred to as Wide Paddles. C&K refers to this PC board mounting as the V3 Style, VERTICAL MOUNT, V-BRACKET It is still offered for the C&K ?T-series? Subminiature Toggle Switches. https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/60/ttoggle-1324393.pdf C&K Selector Guide (current production models) http://www1.futureelectronics.com/doc/C%20-%20K%20COMPONENTS/D102J12S115DQA.pdf NKK (Japan) refers to this mounting style as Bracket & Reinforced Bracket for their ?M-series? Miniature Rocker Switches. You purchase the Actuators separately, for the pivot ? like your example. https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/295/MrockersSnapin-29723.pdf gb === From: "Charles" To: "cctalk digest" Subject: Looking for front panel switch At some earlier time, I'd either lost (or cannibalized for a PDP-8) one of the switches. Subminiature SPDT toggle switches are readily available from C&K and Mountain, but I cannot find one with the four-pin mounting bracket and the "ears" to hold the paddle lever pivots. Attached is a picture showing part of the front panel. https://imgur.com/bIrmZt7 Does anyone have a matching switch they're not using? I have a spare black lever, but it's supposed to be blue for that nibble which would be even better ;) Thanks for any help. == From w9gb at icloud.com Sun Oct 6 14:55:54 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:55:54 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Looking for front panel switch Message-ID: ?Electronic Surplus Cleveland https://www.electronicsurplus.com/ Honeywell switch, might work with your actuator https://www.electronicsurplus.com/honeywell-microswitch-8v1012b-m-switch-rocker-spdt-25ma-20vdc gb Sent from iPad Air From w9gb at icloud.com Sun Oct 6 18:38:37 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 18:38:37 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Looking for front panel switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did find a candidate switch, at Surplus Sales of Nebraska for $5.00 http://www.surplussales.com/switches/SWToggle-1.html (SWT) 8V10128 Microswitch SPDT toggle switch. 25 ma @ 20vDC. PC mount. ON-ON. 0.5" x 0.9"L Blue Paddle. Microswitch Co. was started by Burgess Battery (Freeport, IL) in 1930s. It has been owned by Honeywell Sensing and Control since 1950. https://sensing.honeywell.com/honeywell-sensing-basic-toggle-rocker-range-guide-001032-13-en.pdf Greg From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 00:24:23 2019 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:24:23 +0000 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> *sigh* This list is really going down the tubes. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 7, 2019, at 03:24, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > ?A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to > prison. Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is > not free. You can download the air and install the air and use the > air, but noone can help you do it or they will spend 15months in > federal prison and pay 3/4 of a million beans in damages for helping > you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for the electricity it > cost to put the air in. > > https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWKQFYkdzbg9xvWhvRVkSuq4 > > Jeff > From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Oct 7 00:40:20 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:40:20 +0000 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191007054019.GG11336@lonesome.com> On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 05:24:23AM +0000, null via cctalk wrote: > This list is really going down the tubes. ITYM "Integrated Circuits". Tubes is before the time of most of the folks on this list, I think. (ok folks, it's a joke ...) mcl From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Oct 7 00:50:20 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 22:50:20 -0700 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20191007054019.GG11336@lonesome.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> <20191007054019.GG11336@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 10/6/19 10:40 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 05:24:23AM +0000, null via cctalk wrote: >> This list is really going down the tubes. > > ITYM "Integrated Circuits". Tubes is before the time of most of the > folks on this list, I think. > > (ok folks, it's a joke ...) But I thought that the Internet was a "series of tubes", so, yesy, this list really is going down the tubes. alan > > mcl > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 7 03:30:50 2019 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:30:50 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ha. I was recently in PC World (gross) buying my son a laptop for University. They tried to sell him (me) a whole load of crap he didn't need. They tried to sell me an Office 365 subscription that he gets for free from the Uni. They tried to sell me A/V software you can get free. They tried to sell me 1TB of cloud storage he doesn't need. They tried to sell me Windows 10 restore media, for FORTY POUNDS. Amazing. On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 04:24, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to > prison. Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is > not free. You can download the air and install the air and use the > air, but noone can help you do it or they will spend 15months in > federal prison and pay 3/4 of a million beans in damages for helping > you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for the electricity it > cost to put the air in. > > > https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWKQFYkdzbg9xvWhvRVkSuq4 > > Jeff > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 04:32:59 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:32:59 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ce301d57cf2$35d4b540$a17e1fc0$@gmail.com> Note:- This storey is a year old... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Worley > via cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2019 04:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Nuke Redmond! > > A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to prison. > Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is not free. You can > download the air and install the air and use the air, but noone can help you do > it or they will spend 15months in federal prison and pay 3/4 of a million beans > in damages for helping you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for the > electricity it cost to put the air in. > > https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright- > 20180426- > story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWKQFYkdzbg > 9xvWhvRVkSuq4 > > Jeff From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 05:51:45 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:51:45 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d0301d57cfd$36e33e10$a4a9ba30$@gmail.com> Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance policy.... .. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have student discount stores? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of John Many Jars > via cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2019 09:31 > To: Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk > Subject: Re: Nuke Redmond! > > Ha. I was recently in PC World (gross) buying my son a laptop for University. > > They tried to sell him (me) a whole load of crap he didn't need. They tried to > sell me an Office 365 subscription that he gets for free from the Uni. They > tried to sell me A/V software you can get free. They tried to sell me 1TB of > cloud storage he doesn't need. They tried to sell me Windows 10 restore > media, for FORTY POUNDS. > > Amazing. > > > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 04:24, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to > > prison. Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is > > not free. You can download the air and install the air and use the > > air, but noone can help you do it or they will spend 15months in > > federal prison and pay 3/4 of a million beans in damages for helping > > you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for the electricity it > > cost to put the air in. > > > > > > https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyrig > > ht-20180426- > story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWK > > QFYkdzbg9xvWhvRVkSuq4 > > > > Jeff > > > > > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that > the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 7 06:14:55 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 06:14:55 -0500 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <0d0301d57cfd$36e33e10$a4a9ba30$@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0d0301d57cfd$36e33e10$a4a9ba30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> At 05:51 AM 10/7/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance policy.... >.. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have student discount stores? University student discount stores? You mean those state-sponsored computer shops that put all the private computer shops out of business? Only 1.2 :-), as for example in a nearby (10K student) university town, there are no longer any private computer repair shops that a non-student can go to as far as I can tell, so I'm actually picking up more business because I'm one town away. - John From david at kdbarto.org Mon Oct 7 07:56:43 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:56:43 -0700 Subject: Old UNIX Books Message-ID: I?ve got a few books I?ve just pulled off the shelf and no longer want/need. I?m hoping someone will give them a good home. UNIX System Labs Inc UNIX(r) System V Release 4 Programmers Guide: System Services and Application Packaging Tools Device Driver Interface/Driver-Kernel Interface (DDI/DKI) Reference Manual (2 copies) AT&T 3B2/3B5/3B15 Computers Assembly Programming Manual Sun Microsystems Inc (Sun Technical Reports) The UNIX System - 1985 Sun 3 Architecture - 1986 I?m willing to split postage on mailing them wherever. If you are local (San Diego) I?m willing to meet you wherever for an exchange and a coffee. David (Also posted on the Unix Heritage Society mailing list) From david at kdbarto.org Mon Oct 7 08:15:00 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:15:00 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> Message-ID: <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> These went exceptionally fast. Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him in shipping them. David > On Oct 7, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Jim Capp wrote: > > David, > > I?m interested and will give them a good home. I?m in Pennsylvania, so coffee would not work. I?m also willing to cover your shipping costs. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > >> On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:56 AM, David wrote: >> >> I?ve got a few books I?ve just pulled off the shelf and no longer want/need. >> I?m hoping someone will give them a good home. >> >> UNIX System Labs Inc UNIX(r) System V Release 4 >> Programmers Guide: System Services and Application Packaging Tools >> Device Driver Interface/Driver-Kernel Interface (DDI/DKI) Reference Manual (2 copies) >> >> AT&T 3B2/3B5/3B15 Computers Assembly Programming Manual >> >> Sun Microsystems Inc (Sun Technical Reports) >> The UNIX System - 1985 >> Sun 3 Architecture - 1986 >> >> I?m willing to split postage on mailing them wherever. If you are local (San Diego) >> I?m willing to meet you wherever for an exchange and a coffee. >> >> David >> (Also posted on the cctalk mailing list) >> > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Oct 7 00:41:06 2019 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:41:06 +0200 Subject: Fw: [rescue] Very Last Chance - E6000 and/or parts References: <3b99ccb5-c09f-70d3-eab8-7b3c3673c916@gmx.de> Message-ID: Hi everybody, as I don't recall seeing this offer around here (may be just rusty memory on my side however...), I thought I'd forward this for good measure. I'm considering making the 2k mi trip together with my Dad but would do so only as a last resort to save the machine from being scrapped. I think I have some excess CPU boards, maybe a clock board, spacers and PCU/fan boxes from a gutted E4k class machine here (southern Germany) so I might be able to help people looking for parts. So long, Arno // DO4NAK > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:26:06 +0000 (UTC) > From: Mike Spooner > To: The Rescue List > Subject: [rescue] Very Last Chance - E6000 and/or parts > Message-ID: > <90BB83AE79EC6FAC.9de3eb44-8314-4e62-b390-172d0a54745f at mail.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > In spite of my efforts to find a good home for my 18x250MHz Sun Enterprise E6000 a couple of months ago, I still have it. Unfortunately, the house is now sold and the E6000 needs to be gone by next Sunday.I can store it at work for a few weeks whilst sorting out shipping etc for any takers. > I am located on the Isle of Man, so most of you won't be able to just drive round and pick it up! > Thus I'm willing to split it up into it's constituent modules - if you need PCMs, CPU/Mem boards, I/O boards, a disk board, clock module, peripheral power supply, Sun FC transcievers, memory DIMMs, QFE SBus cards, keyswitch module, peripheral cable harness, etc to keep your E3000/4000/5000/6000 sprightly and running,*please* drop me a line, ASAP. At a pinch, I might even be able to extract the 16-slot Gigaplane backplane from the steel chassis. > Alternatively, if you know of anyone else who might be interested,*please* pass this message and my email-address on to them. > I'll post the full list of component modules/parts here in a day or so. > -- Mike Spooner From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Oct 7 07:01:43 2019 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:01:43 +0200 Subject: Fw: [rescue] Very Last Chance - E6000 and/or parts References: <3b99ccb5-c09f-70d3-eab8-7b3c3673c916@gmx.de> Message-ID: Hi everybody, as I don't recall seeing this offer around here (may be just rusty memory on my side however...), I thought I'd forward this for good measure. (I'm trying a second time, to cctalk, now as it seems I fell out of the classiccmp universe somewhere around 2016-17. Sorry if this appears twice. Hadn't actually realized this as I subscribe to several digests of related topics, seems like it was a somewhat gradual process of cctalk seemingly "drying up". Funnily I can't even get an email reminder into my inbox to check whether something got upset in my account settings.) I'm considering making the 2k mi trip together with my Dad but would do so only as a last resort to save the machine from being scrapped. I think I have some excess CPU boards, maybe a clock board, spacers and PCU/fan boxes from a gutted E4k class machine here (southern Germany) so I might be able to help people looking for parts. So long, Arno // DO4NAK > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:26:06 +0000 (UTC) > From: Mike Spooner > To: The Rescue List > Subject: [rescue] Very Last Chance - E6000 and/or parts > Message-ID: > <90BB83AE79EC6FAC.9de3eb44-8314-4e62-b390-172d0a54745f at mail.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > In spite of my efforts to find a good home for my 18x250MHz Sun Enterprise E6000 a couple of months ago, I still have it. Unfortunately, the house is now sold and the E6000 needs to be gone by next Sunday.I can store it at work for a few weeks whilst sorting out shipping etc for any takers. > I am located on the Isle of Man, so most of you won't be able to just drive round and pick it up! > Thus I'm willing to split it up into it's constituent modules - if you need PCMs, CPU/Mem boards, I/O boards, a disk board, clock module, peripheral power supply, Sun FC transcievers, memory DIMMs, QFE SBus cards, keyswitch module, peripheral cable harness, etc to keep your E3000/4000/5000/6000 sprightly and running,*please* drop me a line, ASAP. At a pinch, I might even be able to extract the 16-slot Gigaplane backplane from the steel chassis. > Alternatively, if you know of anyone else who might be interested,*please* pass this message and my email-address on to them. > I'll post the full list of component modules/parts here in a day or so. > -- Mike Spooner From dougatdoughq at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 05:19:24 2019 From: dougatdoughq at gmail.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:19:24 +1100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <0ce301d57cf2$35d4b540$a17e1fc0$@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0ce301d57cf2$35d4b540$a17e1fc0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is. He ended up serving 15 months in prison for making rescue disks that were based on downloadable software that required licence keys that the PCs that he refurbished already had. It's a complex.case and the judge didn't understand the actual value of the media which was zero. Sadly technically he did breach copyright. So lesson to learn. Stay away from software giants who have bigger bankrolls than you do. On Mon, 7 Oct. 2019, 8:33 pm Dave Wade via cctalk, wrote: > Note:- This storey is a year old... > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. > Worley > > via cctalk > > Sent: 07 October 2019 04:24 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Nuke Redmond! > > > > A fellow who was putting the air in "Microsoft Tire" (c) is going to > prison. > > Microsoft claims that the air they give free with the tire is not free. > You can > > download the air and install the air and use the air, but noone can help > you do > > it or they will spend 15months in federal prison and pay 3/4 of a > million beans > > in damages for helping you and charging nothing for it but a quarter for > the > > electricity it cost to put the air in. > > > > > https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright- > > 20180426- > > story.html?fbclid=IwAR3v6MDIUWtqyUxcupT7YQOaX5a7bzrKZKAZWKQFYkdzbg > > 9xvWhvRVkSuq4 > > > > Jeff > > > From coreyvcf at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 07:49:38 2019 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:49:38 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Ok the original topic. I think what screwed the guy selling the 25 cent computer disks is that Microsoft, according to the article ,sells $25 replacement restore disks. So technically he is counterfeiting a current Microsoft product, the physical restore disk they sell. The whole argument that there were original disks provided with the system or the software can be downloaded for free is meaningless to the actual case. Not saying I agree with the law they got him on as there should be some exceptions but facts are the facts. Btw. This was the first version of the story I read that mentioned that Microsoft sold replacement restore disks to computer refurbish shops themselves. To put this in another way. You are allowed to make a personal backup your own stuff. So for example I own a DVD of raiders of the lost ark, I?m allowed to make a backup for myself. If I didn?t make a backup or lost the disk but had the packaging/case, you can order replacement disks by contacting paramount by providing your original packaging or damaged DVD. I have done this in the past. Now if I made a copy of Raiders for someone else or copied it off a free TV transmission and sold DVDs of that, it would be a crime since there still is a way to buy a replacement DVD or watch/DVR it on free TV when it happens to be on. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 7, 2019, at 7:15 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > ?At 05:51 AM 10/7/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance policy.... >> .. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have student discount stores? > > University student discount stores? You mean those state-sponsored > computer shops that put all the private computer shops out of business? > > Only 1.2 :-), as for example in a nearby (10K student) university town, > there are no longer any private computer repair shops that a non-student > can go to as far as I can tell, so I'm actually picking up more business > because I'm one town away. > > - John > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 7 09:07:16 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest Message-ID: <20191007140716.028B018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jason T > didn't know you were at the show. Thanks for coming out! I wasn't! :-) This is via Paul A, who was there. I don't recall where they were before they got free-piled (he told me who it was who had it, but I had no particular reason to store those bits in my memory). Noel From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 7 09:54:26 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Message-ID: > downloaded for free is meaningless to the actual case. Not saying I > agree with the law they got him on as there should be some exceptions > but facts are the facts. Btw. This was the first version of the story I > read that mentioned that Microsoft sold replacement restore disks to > computer refurbish shops themselves. I thought Microsoft would refer you to Dell, and Dell would be the ones to sell them. Had the discs not looked like the original restore discs then he might of gotten away with it? Trademark infringement and all. Fake Louie. It's stupid. It really is a mess trying to restore the OS when the hard drive dies on machines that ship with recovery partitions and no media. I mean, the fact the restore media is on a CD/DVD just says that it's for old crusty computers. New machines have the license keys baked into the BIOS, the Windows tax is built in. But the Netflix Bill Gates docuemntary says he is cool so the young people trust Microsoft. And of course the beautiful machines Apple was making kind of went to hell as they focus on telephones, which are declining. Pretty much trapped. - Ethan > Now if I made a copy of Raiders for someone else or copied it off a free > TV transmission and sold DVDs of that, it would be a crime since there > still is a way to buy a replacement DVD or watch/DVR it on free TV when > it happens to be on. But that is different as Windows is protected by a software key, so the restore disc is useless without it. > > Cheers, > Corey > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 7, 2019, at 7:15 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?At 05:51 AM 10/7/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >>> Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance policy.... >>> .. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have student discount stores? >> >> University student discount stores? You mean those state-sponsored >> computer shops that put all the private computer shops out of business? >> >> Only 1.2 :-), as for example in a nearby (10K student) university town, >> there are no longer any private computer repair shops that a non-student >> can go to as far as I can tell, so I'm actually picking up more business >> because I'm one town away. >> >> - John >> > -- : Ethan O'Toole From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 7 10:13:18 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:13:18 -0500 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000a01d57d21$c0121160$40363420$@classiccmp.org> I'm fairly sure that the (near) future will be OSaaS, and you will be paying monthly for your Windows Vi... er... OS. Not just your office productivity and LOB software. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 7 10:15:36 2019 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:15:36 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000a01d57d21$c0121160$40363420$@classiccmp.org> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <000a01d57d21$c0121160$40363420$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'm glad retirement is now only 15 years away... no make that 17, soon to be 20? On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 16:13, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > I'm fairly sure that the (near) future will be OSaaS, and you will be > paying monthly for your Windows Vi... er... OS. Not just your office > productivity and LOB software. > > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 7 10:21:02 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:21:02 -0700 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008001d57d22$d518ccb0$7f4a6610$@net> > I think what screwed the guy selling the 25 cent computer disks is that > Microsoft, according to the article ,sells $25 replacement restore > disks. So technically he is counterfeiting a current Microsoft > product, the physical restore disk they sell. I am not sure about the veracity of that. I.E. If you call Microsoft or Dell and tell them you have a 486 PC you bought 30 years ago with Win 3.1 license they would be willing to provide you with a restore disks at any price. That aside - his biggest mistake was CHARGING for the discs, even if it was a nominal 25 cents, especially if he could not verify original license holder being the purchaser. If he had given the discs away with a refurbished system, even if he worked the price into the system price, with a license I think he would have been fine. -Ali p.s. I am not a lawyer I only play one online! :) From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 7 10:25:09 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <008001d57d22$d518ccb0$7f4a6610$@net> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <008001d57d22$d518ccb0$7f4a6610$@net> Message-ID: > original license holder being the purchaser. If he had given the discs > away with a refurbished system, even if he worked the price into the > system price, with a license I think he would have been fine. US Customs looks for items with trademarks of certain protected brands and then you get in trouble. If they were shipped via DHL there probably wouldn't have been the same issue. ;-) - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:28:15 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:28:15 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> Its been a while but same game and I'm not a player. I just don't run windows. I jumped that ship back in 06 when burned on NT. Since then its Linux. If you play in the swamp of M$ then your run all the risks and costs. Its just not good enough to be worth the pain. Any new machine I might buy must be bare or come with Linux and in the past Asus did a few that I still run. If not I default to ITX/miniITX boards/boxes as they are easily gotten bare. It also reminded me of Micro$soft Roads, a few of us likely remember that one too. Wait till M$ AI on your car decides some roads do not meet the terms of service and refuses to go there. Since schools and Uni's all seem to be M$ based maybe the terms of service are in effect there. And tubes... I'm like one of the few here that knows how to design with them because I did. Allison On 10/7/19 10:54 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> downloaded for free is meaningless to the actual case.? Not saying I >> agree with the law they got him on as there should be some exceptions >> but facts are the facts.? Btw. This was the first version of the story >> I read that mentioned that Microsoft sold replacement restore disks to >> computer refurbish shops themselves. > > I thought Microsoft would refer you to Dell, and Dell would be the ones > to sell them. > > Had the discs not looked like the original restore discs then he might > of gotten away with it? Trademark infringement and all. Fake Louie. > > It's stupid. It really is a mess trying to restore the OS when the hard > drive dies on machines that ship with recovery partitions and no media. > > I mean, the fact the restore media is on a CD/DVD just says that it's > for old crusty computers. > > New machines have the license keys baked into the BIOS, the Windows tax > is built in. > > But the Netflix Bill Gates docuemntary says he is cool so the young > people trust Microsoft. And of course the beautiful machines Apple was > making kind of went to hell as they focus on telephones, which are > declining. > > Pretty much trapped. > > ??????????? - Ethan > >> Now if I made a copy of Raiders for someone else or copied it off a >> free TV transmission and sold DVDs of that, it would be a crime since >> there still is a way to buy a replacement DVD or watch/DVR it on free >> TV when it happens to be on. > > But that is different as Windows is protected by a software key, so the > restore disc is useless without it. > >> >> Cheers, >> Corey >> >> corey cohen >> u??o? ???o? >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 7, 2019, at 7:15 AM, John Foust via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> ?At 05:51 AM 10/7/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >>>> Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell >>>> you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance >>>> policy.... >>>> .. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have >>>> student discount stores? >>> >>> University student discount stores?? You mean those state-sponsored >>> computer shops that put all the private computer shops out of business? >>> >>> Only 1.2 :-), as for example in a nearby (10K student) university town, >>> there are no longer any private computer repair shops that a non-student >>> can go to as far as I can tell, so I'm actually picking up more business >>> because I'm one town away. >>> >>> - John >>> >> > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:41:52 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:41:52 -0400 Subject: Able document at VCF Midwest In-Reply-To: References: <20191005170455.68D9018C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Do we know where the docs were before they hit the Free Pile? I took > home a few boxes of Will D's DECdocs, which I can double-check to make > sure yours didn't intermix. Otherwise, stuff flew off the Pile as fast > as it was placed there. This title does not ring a bell with me - I likely would have pulled it. But I think at least one person "donated" some manuals to my pile when I was not looking. -- Will From cliendo at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:45:06 2019 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:45:06 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ugh this is old and has nothing to do with what we do Also is has nothing to do with what anyone is discussing. The guy make exact copies of restore CDs with Dell and Microsoft labels, so they were counterfeit. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 7 10:58:56 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:58:56 -0700 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> > Ugh this is old and has nothing to do with what we do > > Also is has nothing to do with what anyone is discussing. > > The guy make exact copies of restore CDs with Dell and Microsoft > labels, so they were counterfeit. In none of the stories I have read, and I admit I haven't been following this closely, there has been no mention of labels being copied (i.e. logos, graphics, etc.). If he did do this then yes he screwed himself royally. -Ali From don at 00100100.net Mon Oct 7 11:25:27 2019 From: don at 00100100.net (Don Fanning) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:25:27 -0700 Subject: Tandem Minicomputers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I worked at Canyon Park Data Center (one of Microsoft's original Data Centers in Puget Sound) and they had just as you walked into the data center floor a Unisys rack that had like 64 individual SBC to work in unison with WinNT Clustering. It was configured like a Cray where you had a maintenance pc/laptop that was the console for booting/operating the entire rack - so yes, make sure you have all the parts together when one of those hits the recycler. On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 11:03 PM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Not obscure at all, at least not to me. I worked for Jim Gray circa 1996 - > 1999 and he worked for Tandem during the NonStop era which informed his > knowledge of fault-tolerance that helped him advise the Windows NT > Clustering team. > > Don't toss it!!! If you can't find > > On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 9:46 PM Jason T via cctalk > wrote: > > > Well I said no more computers I can't lift, but exotic systems keep > > finding me. So today we pulled a Tandem CLX out of a basement, along > > with a few boxes of docs, 9-track tapes and random odd and ends: > > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/m2N7RKN3JXcmVTUC8 > > > > There's such as thing as "so obscure that no one knows/cares about > > it". I've had those before. Do I have another? It sure is heavy. > > > > -j > > > From cliendo at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 11:55:45 2019 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:55:45 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 11:58 AM Ali wrote: > In none of the stories I have read, and I admit I haven't been following this closely, there has been no mention of labels being copied (i.e. logos, graphics, etc.). If he did do this then yes he screwed himself royally. > > -Ali > https://mashable.com/2018/06/07/microsoft-right-to-repair-eric-lundgren-pr-nightmare/ >From the article: "One thing Microsoft and Lundgren do agree on: it was wrong for him to put a Dell logo on the discs, which he said he did to make the discs' purpose less confusing to consumers." "What I?m guilty of is printing a logo on a worthless piece of plastic," Lundgren said. "But that?s a civil issue," he said, and worth a fine, not jail time." https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-microsoft-restore-disc-20180215-story.html >From the article: "In 2013, federal authorities intercepted shipments of 28,000 restore discs that Lundgren had manufactured in China and sent to his sales partner in Florida. The discs had labels nearly identical to the discs provided by Dell for its computers and had the Windows and Dell logos. ?If I had just written ?Eric?s Restore Disc? on there, it would have been fine,? Lundgren said." I think he should not have gone to jail, this is a civil matter. However what he did was wrong and it badly affected the recycling business as a whole. Now other people are not wanting to persue recycled computers From web at loomcom.com Mon Oct 7 12:17:35 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 10:17:35 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> David writes: > These went exceptionally fast. > > Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim > will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him > in shipping them. All (and especially Jim and David!) I'm 100% fine with Jim getting these manuals (lord knows I don't have any more room on my shelves!), but may I ask that the 3B2 manual be scanned? There is an existing copy of this manual floating around online, but the copy that was scanned was a proof print, has extensive markup, and a very poor scan quality. I would love to see a better version available! All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 7 12:20:44 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > David writes: > >> These went exceptionally fast. >> >> Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim >> will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him >> in shipping them. > > > All (and especially Jim and David!) > > I'm 100% fine with Jim getting these manuals (lord knows I don't have > any more room on my shelves!), but may I ask that the 3B2 manual be > scanned? There is an existing copy of this manual floating around > online, but the copy that was scanned was a proof print, has extensive > markup, and a very poor scan quality. I would love to see a better > version available! > If the manual is in a 3 ring binder, I'd be happy to scan it for you folks. I've got an Epson DS-770 duplexing scanner that does an excellent job. I've scanned a pile of docs with it at 600dpi, and it's performed flawlessly. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 7 12:26:16 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/7/19 8:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Its been a while but same game and I'm not a player. > > I just don't run windows. I jumped that ship back in 06 when > burned on NT. Since then its Linux. If you play in the swamp > of M$ then your run all the risks and costs. Its just not good > enough to be worth the pain. Any new machine I might buy must > be bare or come with Linux and in the past Asus did a few that > I still run. If not I default to ITX/miniITX boards/boxes as > they are easily gotten bare. I hear you--I've been on Linux for day-to-day stuff for quite a few years, but keep a copy of XP on VirtualBox just in case. Some of the older systems that I have legacy peripherals in also require Windows, but it's all old versions. I recently convinced my lovely wife to make the leap to Linux. She really likes it. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 7 12:40:22 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 10:40:22 -0700 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> Message-ID: <009c01d57d36$4c01ccb0$e4056610$@net> > "In 2013, federal authorities intercepted shipments of 28,000 restore > discs that Lundgren had manufactured in China and sent to his sales > partner in Florida. The discs had labels nearly identical to the discs > provided by Dell for its computers and had the Windows and Dell logos. > ?If I had just written ?Eric?s Restore Disc? on there, it would have > been fine,? Lundgren said." > No duh! Why would you fake the Dell/MS Logos? How does that help the consumer, who is so clueless they can't get restore disk on their own, vs. a label that says "Restore Disc for Dell Optiplex Blah Blah" > > I think he should not have gone to jail, this is a civil matter. > However what he did was wrong and it badly affected the recycling > business as a whole. Now other people are not wanting to persue > recycled computers I am not sure about that. It does put some more scrutiny on the business and frankly keeps the unnecessary "creativity" out. As this is a copyright infringement I believe there are both civil and criminal penalties so jail is possible (and was given). Of course the sanity of that is a whole other argument. -Ali From alan at alanlee.org Mon Oct 7 14:21:13 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 15:21:13 -0400 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a9d351ac80011a81f120e8d8a055021@alanlee.org> On 2019-10-07 08:49, corey cohen via cctalk wrote: > So for example I own a DVD of raiders of the lost ark, I?m allowed to > make a backup for myself. Just beware I don't believe there has been a DMCA challenge that validates your claim yet. Fair-use is always subjective. And truth often drops to the bottom of reasons for prosecutions. I can't afford your bail bond Corey :( So be careful and don't call Evan as a character witness! "Initially, federal prosecutors valued the discs at $299 each..." That wasn't because of un-willful ignorance. It is not in the prosecutions' best interest to counter a weak claim that bolsters their case - even an erroneous one. That's the defense's job. Most prosecutors inflate initial damage claims to untruthful absurd levels because there is very little procedural opportunity for the defense to challenge. And doing so will slow down a trial bearing considerable cost. A common way prosecutors pressure pleas - literally starve them out. It's a bit unsavory at best and unethical at worst; but legal. We have a great criminal justice system. But it's run by people who can be flawed - or motivated by politics such as their own elections. And it predicates success on both sides opposing at full force with equal resources. That is not the reality in nearly all proceedings. My view refined significantly when I stood in a court room on the other side potentially facing 9 years on new computer related statutes that no one understood - including my lawyer. -A From mechanic_2 at charter.net Mon Oct 7 15:43:27 2019 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 15:43:27 -0500 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D9BA36F.5010203@charter.net> Hello all, The problem as I see it are all of the sheep that buy pre-configured boxes from the likes of Dell and other such providers. They don't get the OS disc. They only receive restore discs. Most of these users only know how to turn on the power and operate the keyboard and/or mouse. They have no understanding of how the system works just like most people who drive have no understanding of how an automobile works. I have never bought a pre-configured box. I always built my own. I started with a VIC-20 that I add a lot of extras to. I then went to a C-64, a C-128, an Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000, Amiga 4000 and Amiga 4000T. I modified all of these systems in lots of ways. I finally gave in because of game availability and built my first PC clone and installed Win-95 on it. I also had MS-Dos installed on it. I continued to use my A4000T in conjunction with the Win 95 box. I networked my A4000T box with the Win 95 box using ARCNet. I also went the upgrade route with MS. WinNT, Win2000, WinXP, and now Win 8.1 Pro. I have also dabbled in Linux but the games always brought me back to Windoze. So I have some knowledge and ability concerning computers and how they work where most users have almost zero knowledge and ability. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/7/2019 10:28 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Its been a while but same game and I'm not a player. > > I just don't run windows. I jumped that ship back in 06 when > burned on NT. Since then its Linux. If you play in the swamp > of M$ then your run all the risks and costs. Its just not good > enough to be worth the pain. Any new machine I might buy must > be bare or come with Linux and in the past Asus did a few that > I still run. If not I default to ITX/miniITX boards/boxes as > they are easily gotten bare. > > It also reminded me of Micro$soft Roads, a few of us likely > remember that one too. > > Wait till M$ AI on your car decides some roads do not meet the > terms of service and refuses to go there. > > Since schools and Uni's all seem to be M$ based maybe the terms > of service are in effect there. > > And tubes... I'm like one of the few here that knows how to design > with them because I did. > > Allison > > > On 10/7/19 10:54 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> downloaded for free is meaningless to the actual case. Not saying I >>> agree with the law they got him on as there should be some exceptions >>> but facts are the facts. Btw. This was the first version of the story >>> I read that mentioned that Microsoft sold replacement restore disks to >>> computer refurbish shops themselves. >> I thought Microsoft would refer you to Dell, and Dell would be the ones >> to sell them. >> >> Had the discs not looked like the original restore discs then he might >> of gotten away with it? Trademark infringement and all. Fake Louie. >> >> It's stupid. It really is a mess trying to restore the OS when the hard >> drive dies on machines that ship with recovery partitions and no media. >> >> I mean, the fact the restore media is on a CD/DVD just says that it's >> for old crusty computers. >> >> New machines have the license keys baked into the BIOS, the Windows tax >> is built in. >> >> But the Netflix Bill Gates docuemntary says he is cool so the young >> people trust Microsoft. And of course the beautiful machines Apple was >> making kind of went to hell as they focus on telephones, which are >> declining. >> >> Pretty much trapped. >> >> - Ethan >> >>> Now if I made a copy of Raiders for someone else or copied it off a >>> free TV transmission and sold DVDs of that, it would be a crime since >>> there still is a way to buy a replacement DVD or watch/DVR it on free >>> TV when it happens to be on. >> But that is different as Windows is protected by a software key, so the >> restore disc is useless without it. >> >>> Cheers, >>> Corey >>> >>> corey cohen >>> u??o? ???o? >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 7, 2019, at 7:15 AM, John Foust via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> ?At 05:51 AM 10/7/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Must be the USA PC World. In the UK they would have tried to sell >>>>> you an extended warranty as well which is really just an insurance >>>>> policy.... >>>>> .. but the question is why PC World. Don't US universities have >>>>> student discount stores? >>>> University student discount stores? You mean those state-sponsored >>>> computer shops that put all the private computer shops out of business? >>>> >>>> Only 1.2 :-), as for example in a nearby (10K student) university town, >>>> there are no longer any private computer repair shops that a non-student >>>> can go to as far as I can tell, so I'm actually picking up more business >>>> because I'm one town away. >>>> >>>> - John >>>> >> -- >> : Ethan O'Toole >> > From david at kdbarto.org Mon Oct 7 16:19:58 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:19:58 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <48ED5487-B872-4E98-945D-50C3D8E6F3D0@kdbarto.org> I?ll leave it to Jim to see about scanning it (?bitsavers?). I don?t have the equipment or the bandwidth to do it. David > On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > > David writes: > >> These went exceptionally fast. >> >> Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim >> will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him >> in shipping them. > > > All (and especially Jim and David!) > > I'm 100% fine with Jim getting these manuals (lord knows I don't have > any more room on my shelves!), but may I ask that the 3B2 manual be > scanned? There is an existing copy of this manual floating around > online, but the copy that was scanned was a proof print, has extensive > markup, and a very poor scan quality. I would love to see a better > version available! > > All the best, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA, USA > web at loomcom.com From david at kdbarto.org Mon Oct 7 16:20:55 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:20:55 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> > On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:20 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: > >> >> David writes: >> >>> These went exceptionally fast. >>> >>> Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim >>> will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him >>> in shipping them. >> >> >> All (and especially Jim and David!) >> >> I'm 100% fine with Jim getting these manuals (lord knows I don't have >> any more room on my shelves!), but may I ask that the 3B2 manual be >> scanned? There is an existing copy of this manual floating around >> online, but the copy that was scanned was a proof print, has extensive >> markup, and a very poor scan quality. I would love to see a better >> version available! >> > If the manual is in a 3 ring binder, I'd be happy to scan it for you folks. I've got an Epson DS-770 duplexing scanner that does an excellent job. I've scanned a pile of docs with it at 600dpi, and it's performed flawlessly. > > g. > These are all standard bound books, so I?m unsure about how they would get scanned in the best possible way without destroying them. David > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From web at loomcom.com Mon Oct 7 16:29:47 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:29:47 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <0302670b-4f12-4027-9877-98dfbdbfa11e@www.fastmail.com> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019, at 2:20 PM, David via cctalk wrote: > > These are all standard bound books, so I?m unsure about how they would > get scanned in the best possible way without destroying them. > That shouldn't be an impediment. I have access to a book scanner here in Seattle (full double page non-destructive scanning). It's certainly more work than sheet-feed scanning, but since it does no harm to the original material, it's worth it. If either you or Jim would be willing, I'd be glad to do the scanning and then immediately forward the material on to its forever home. > David -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 7 16:41:26 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, David wrote: >>> >> If the manual is in a 3 ring binder, I'd be happy to scan it for you >> folks. I've got an Epson DS-770 duplexing scanner that does an >> excellent job. I've scanned a pile of docs with it at 600dpi, and it's >> performed flawlessly. >> >> g. >> > These are all standard bound books, so I?m unsure about how they would > get scanned in the best possible way without destroying them. I've got a scanner for those too, but it's a ton of work and I need to give my elbow a rest for a month or so. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 7 21:01:15 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:01:15 -0500 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D9BEDEB.20003@pico-systems.com> On 10/07/2019 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I hear you--I've been on Linux for day-to-day stuff for quite a few > years, but keep a copy of XP on VirtualBox just in case. > > Some of the older systems that I have legacy peripherals in also require > Windows, but it's all old versions. > > I recently convinced my lovely wife to make the leap to Linux. She > really likes it. > I've been using Linux since 1998 when I started using the EMC program for CNC machines, which ran on a real time version of Linux. I quickly saw I could do most normal things better on Linux. I now use Win XP and Win 7 for just a FEW programs which are not available on Linux. One is an old but VERY good electronic CAD package (Protel 99 SE, the 99 kind of gives away the vintage!) and my yearly tax filing program, which now required Win 7. I run these as needed in a virtual machine. First I used VMware, but later moved to Virtual Box. My family used Linux when here, but they have all moved out now, one daughter has a Dell laptop that I set up with Linux, and my wife uses Linux and they both find it works quite well for them. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 7 21:23:11 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 20:23:11 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <0302670b-4f12-4027-9877-98dfbdbfa11e@www.fastmail.com> References: <07F6CE19-6D98-4089-8142-517AB142C70E@kdbarto.org> <1614BEF9-8622-4625-891C-A784592D9B49@anteil.com> <4DD83A6C-6825-4B22-A796-1A313F5F8478@kdbarto.org> <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> <38EC03C5-6B7C-433B-9D70-A6338145EBE3@kdbarto.org> <0302670b-4f12-4027-9877-98dfbdbfa11e@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <5d3d8b1f-dd05-1233-9788-7beeefb3844e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/19 3:29 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I have access to a book scanner here in Seattle (full double page > non-destructive scanning). It's certainly more work than sheet-feed > scanning, but since it does no harm to the original material, it's > worth it. Hum.... I wonder if it would be worth while for people to rotate books from their collection through such a system / service. Presuming I have any books that people would be interested in, I'd be happy to ship them somewhere, pay a reasonable fee to have them scanned and shipped back to me. All the while, the community benefiting from the scans. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jcapp at anteil.com Mon Oct 7 12:42:20 2019 From: jcapp at anteil.com (Jim Capp) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix books In-Reply-To: <87wodgtqz4.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <21775619.2867.1570470140676.JavaMail.root@zimbraanteil> Seth, If the 3B2 manuals are in a 3-ring binder, or are in condition to be scanned with a page feed scanner, I'll be happy to scan them and send you a copy. Cheers, Jim From: "Seth J. Morabito" To: david at kdbarto.org Cc: "Jim Capp" , "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 1:17:35 PM Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old Unix books David writes: > These went exceptionally fast. > > Timing of the first response was Jim Capp by about 1 minute. So if Jim > will send me his physical address off list, I?ll coordinate with him > in shipping them. All (and especially Jim and David!) I'm 100% fine with Jim getting these manuals (lord knows I don't have any more room on my shelves!), but may I ask that the 3B2 manual be scanned? There is an existing copy of this manual floating around online, but the copy that was scanned was a proof print, has extensive markup, and a very poor scan quality. I would love to see a better version available! All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From boris at summitclinic.com Tue Oct 8 02:12:57 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 23:12:57 -0800 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <5D9BEDEB.20003@pico-systems.com> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> <5D9BEDEB.20003@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20191008071304.0010B273E4@mx1.ezwind.net> Unfortunately, I have to use Windoze as most medical software is M$ centric. Also, started using VB in about 1991 which allowed me to create windows easily rather than using Hypercard on Mac. As with most M$ programs, they decided to replace a perfectly functional VB6 which allowed one to incoporate assembly code (Hardcore VB was an excellent resource for getting as close as one could to hardware in windoze) with VB.NET which is a POS. Stuck with a huge codebase of VB6 programs that I use daily and still haven't yet succeeded in getting VB6 programs to run under Wine on my Linux machines. Wine, however does run all of my old 16 and 32 bit programs. Have XP running in VirtualBox and run my old Mac code in BasiliskII. Soon as get VB6 running under Linux, will say goodbye to M$ crap. There's a huge number of old machines out there and have systems ranging from original XP's to 80486 based laptops which are very nice as dedicated machines for data acquisition. In typical M$ fashion, they came out with PenWindoze in 1991 or so, when got my first tablet PC, and then totally changed digital ink format when they came out with their *new and improved* version in 2000 tablet PC's. Have a number of these old machines and M$ was actually helpfull in providing details of their new ink format and wrote some neat drawing programs where one can time every stroke and alter the drawing. Of course, when I asked for the initial ink format it appears that they "lost" it, likely because it was "too old". Have lots of drawings that I did in early 1990's that I can see as long as the laptops they were done on continue to function, but porting it to "new and improved" ink format is something I don't have time for. Planned obsolesence seems to be standard M$ policy as well as the assumption that no person in their right mind would use hardware that's very ancient, like 10 years old. >On 10/07/2019 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>I hear you--I've been on Linux for day-to-day stuff for quite a few >>years, but keep a copy of XP on VirtualBox just in case. >> >>Some of the older systems that I have legacy peripherals in also require >>Windows, but it's all old versions. >> >>I recently convinced my lovely wife to make the leap to Linux. She >>really likes it. >I've been using Linux since 1998 when I started using the EMC >program for CNC machines, which ran on a real time version of >Linux. I quickly saw I could do most normal things better on Linux. >I now use Win XP and Win 7 for just a FEW programs which are not >available on Linux. One is an old but VERY good electronic CAD >package (Protel 99 SE, the 99 kind of gives away the vintage!) >and my yearly tax filing program, which now required Win 7. >I run these as needed in a virtual machine. First I used VMware, >but later moved to Virtual Box. > >My family used Linux when here, but they have all moved out now, one >daughter has a Dell laptop that I set up with Linux, and my wife >uses Linux and they both find it works quite well for them. > >Jon From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Oct 8 02:27:31 2019 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:27:31 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20191008071304.0010B273E4@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20191007111513.43D4427432@mx1.ezwind.net> <97A25389-0404-485C-96B6-655AE538AF88@gmail.com> <5370005f-22e9-67ec-2633-7053dda88137@gmail.com> <5D9BEDEB.20003@pico-systems.com> <20191008071304.0010B273E4@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Heh. I'm a Microsoft Admin (in addition to doing all the other IT stuff around here)... and I hate Microsoft too, but somehow I don't want to convert the entire company to Linux (the most important system here, the manufacturing system, runs on Linux). I think that would make my life, not worth living. On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 08:13, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Unfortunately, I have to use Windoze as most medical software is M$ > centric. Also, started using VB in about 1991 which allowed me to > create windows easily rather than using Hypercard on Mac. As with > most M$ programs, they decided to replace a perfectly functional VB6 > which allowed one to incoporate assembly code (Hardcore VB was an > excellent resource for getting as close as one could to hardware in > windoze) with VB.NET which is a POS. > > Stuck with a huge codebase of VB6 programs that I use daily and still > haven't yet succeeded in getting VB6 programs to run under Wine on my > Linux machines. Wine, however does run all of my old 16 and 32 bit > programs. Have XP running in VirtualBox and run my old Mac code in > BasiliskII. Soon as get VB6 running under Linux, will say goodbye to M$ > crap. > > There's a huge number of old machines out there and have systems > ranging from original XP's to 80486 based laptops which are very nice > as dedicated machines for data acquisition. In typical M$ fashion, > they came out with PenWindoze in 1991 or so, when got my first tablet > PC, and then totally changed digital ink format when they came out > with their *new and improved* version in 2000 tablet PC's. Have a > number of these old machines and M$ was actually helpfull in > providing details of their new ink format and wrote some neat drawing > programs where one can time every stroke and alter the drawing. Of > course, when I asked for the initial ink format it appears that they > "lost" it, likely because it was "too old". Have lots of drawings > that I did in early 1990's that I can see as long as the laptops they > were done on continue to function, but porting it to "new and > improved" ink format is something I don't have time for. > > Planned obsolesence seems to be standard M$ policy as well as the > assumption that no person in their right mind would use hardware > that's very ancient, like 10 years old. > > >On 10/07/2019 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>I hear you--I've been on Linux for day-to-day stuff for quite a few > >>years, but keep a copy of XP on VirtualBox just in case. > >> > >>Some of the older systems that I have legacy peripherals in also require > >>Windows, but it's all old versions. > >> > >>I recently convinced my lovely wife to make the leap to Linux. She > >>really likes it. > >I've been using Linux since 1998 when I started using the EMC > >program for CNC machines, which ran on a real time version of > >Linux. I quickly saw I could do most normal things better on Linux. > >I now use Win XP and Win 7 for just a FEW programs which are not > >available on Linux. One is an old but VERY good electronic CAD > >package (Protel 99 SE, the 99 kind of gives away the vintage!) > >and my yearly tax filing program, which now required Win 7. > >I run these as needed in a virtual machine. First I used VMware, > >but later moved to Virtual Box. > > > >My family used Linux when here, but they have all moved out now, one > >daughter has a Dell laptop that I set up with Linux, and my wife > >uses Linux and they both find it works quite well for them. > > > >Jon > > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 03:21:41 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:21:41 +0100 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> References: <92ed30bbe06ee508ef86646ff97a2d879214d803.camel@gmail.com> <0F2D3850-D12E-4577-A578-60F4A71F83BF@gmail.com> <009501d57d28$20c4cd30$624e6790$@net> Message-ID: <51FE718E-3E9E-4C51-AD6C-5EDAA079912A@gmail.com> > On 7 Oct 2019, at 16:58, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > >> Ugh this is old and has nothing to do with what we do >> >> Also is has nothing to do with what anyone is discussing. >> >> The guy make exact copies of restore CDs with Dell and Microsoft >> labels, so they were counterfeit. > > In none of the stories I have read, and I admit I haven't been following this closely, there has been no mention of labels being copied (i.e. logos, graphics, etc.). If he did do this then yes he screwed himself royally. > > -Ali > Read this. he bragged that his copies were almost indistinguishable from the real deal: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/25/pc_recycler_lundgren_jailed/ -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 11:32:10 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 18:32:10 +0200 Subject: IBM 5110 power supply schematics? Message-ID: It turned out my friend was wrong. The power transformer is most likely ok. But one of the main choppers were short circuited (yes, it is a switcher, again to little info from my friend). Anyway. The chopper transistors were TI made in 1978 but marked T484. Probably some IBM marking which no one has the cross for. I replaced them with nice high voltage high current TO3 transistors The only thing i could get from the original transistors except for the physical appearance was the polarity. With a 5.6 ohm resistor on the 5V i fired up the PSU with a 60W lamp in series with one of the mains leads. Nothing happened on the bases of the switchers until I got to around 190 VAC input. At that point the base went high and stayed there. Really strange. Of course I have no schematics for this IBM thingie. Does anyone have a schematic for the IBM 5110 PSU? I think I really need it to understand what is going on. Tracing it out is an option but then all those square metal canned IBM ICs... /Mattis From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 9 09:10:07 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:10:07 -0500 Subject: "Older HP equipment of little value" Message-ID: <00eb01d57eab$41f21830$c5d64890$@com> There are 28 pallets of older HP and Cisco equipment being sold by a broker in Germany. The equipment is located in Hungary. If you can handle taking in a huge amount, and you are in Europe, please contact me. This is not a pick and choose. It is a "take all" situation and will require payment. I do not know the requested value for this lot. I also do not know what the equipment is. A list is available on request. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 13:52:44 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:52:44 -0400 Subject: Free AS400 in UK (E Kent CT91RP) Message-ID: Hello, Maybe someone in the UK would like an AS400..Got the following through vintagecomputer.net contact form: ".. I have as400 fc5070 exp unit v.large & brocade silkworm 'ibm director'netswitch,new,v.large,needing pick up from uk,s.e.kent, ct91rp,anyone who wishes too use,app center full of archives etc, no longer can store them,up for grabs,email pref.." Send me your contact info (email preferred) and I will forward to the person. I don't know the guy, no affiliation, never been to Kent. Bill Degnan From wrm at dW.co.za Thu Oct 10 07:33:20 2019 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:33:20 +0200 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> > >Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout. So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM. Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM? Thanks W From sales at elecplus.com Thu Oct 10 09:38:39 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:38:39 -0500 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> Message-ID: <003f01d57f78$68c239e0$3a46ada0$@com> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Notebook/Notebook_Index.htm Maybe useful? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wouter de Waal via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:33 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L > >Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout. So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM. Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM? Thanks W -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 08:15:21 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:15:21 +0000 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> References: , <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> Message-ID: Maybe they are OTP? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Wouter de Waal via cctech Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 5:33 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L > >Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout. So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM. Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM? Thanks W From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 10 12:49:59 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:49:59 -0700 Subject: IBM MST extender cards Message-ID: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Oct 10 12:22:58 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:22:58 -0700 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za> Message-ID: <1AF7F527-910E-4224-805D-0C35E3DAC6ED@shaw.ca> On 2019-Oct-10, at 5:33 AM, Wouter de Waal via cctech wrote: >> Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. > > Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout. > > So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM. > > Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM? Funny, the usual goto reference for early 6800-series chips is the 6800 Micro System Design manual: http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/MC6800_Microcomputer_System_Design_Data_1976.pdf but it's not in there. There are a couple of other 1K ROMs however (6830,68308). Might compare pinout with those. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Thu Oct 10 13:54:35 2019 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 20:54:35 +0200 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/10/19 7:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 > > are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? > They look like it, with a right-angle adapter plugged into the end. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 10 14:12:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 12:12:34 -0700 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9d89c03b-45a7-8df5-f2f8-beee85155925@bitsavers.org> cool. there was also a 327x debug box that I won https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-Tester-in-Case-with-Templates-IBM-Collector/352805885595 On 10/10/19 11:54 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/10/19 7:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 >> >> are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? >> > They look like it, with a right-angle adapter plugged into the end. > > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Oct 10 14:16:15 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:16:15 -0600 Subject: DEC Rainbow Univation Docs / Software Message-ID: This is a bit of a hail mary... I recently won a Univation Intenral Hard Disk System for the DEC Rainbow 100 card, memory and drive. But it came with the wrong docs and no diskettes. Any chance that anybody has anything in this area squirreled away somewhere? Warner From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 16:24:25 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 21:24:25 +0000 Subject: Mystery chip SCM44506L In-Reply-To: <1AF7F527-910E-4224-805D-0C35E3DAC6ED@shaw.ca> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20191010143031.05586410@mail.dW.co.za>, <1AF7F527-910E-4224-805D-0C35E3DAC6ED@shaw.ca> Message-ID: That would make sense if these were OTP or fused parts. Wouter, can you check the pins with an ohm meter, to what we think are power and ground. Outputs usually look different than inputs. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 10:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mystery chip SCM44506L On 2019-Oct-10, at 5:33 AM, Wouter de Waal via cctech wrote: >> Very likely a semi custom or custom memory device, due to the prefix. > > Armed with that and the fact that pin 1 connects to the leadframe I figured maybe it's something like the 6830 Mikbug prom -- 0V on 1, 5V on 12, data on the left, address on the right. Tried reading it like that (for all 16 combinations of chip selects) but 0xFF throughout. > > So I popped the lid, stuck it under a microscope. The chip says "MCM6816" which is in fact a 1k ROM. > > Anyone have more information on the 6816 ROM? Funny, the usual goto reference for early 6800-series chips is the 6800 Micro System Design manual: http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/MC6800_Microcomputer_System_Design_Data_1976.pdf but it's not in there. There are a couple of other 1K ROMs however (6830,68308). Might compare pinout with those. From steven at malikoff.com Thu Oct 10 19:16:34 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 10:16:34 +1000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al said > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 > > are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? > > Very nice, great find. That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit (now lost unfortunately). Are there any other markings on it apart from the IBM p/n? From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 10 23:29:14 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 04:29:14 +0000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:16:34AM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit I ... should take it from this that people don't just *own* these anymore? This was an "essntial device" in my younger engineering days. Sigh. Yes, I still have it. Yes, I have used it (albeit not recently). Yes, I have used the Gardner-Denver electric tool as well, although in those days I never could have afforded it. mcl From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 11 00:17:38 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 15:17:38 +1000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <93d589dbe809397c92bc69f7255d0398.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Mark said > On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:16:34AM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit > > I ... should take it from this that people don't just *own* these anymore? > > This was an "essntial device" in my younger engineering days. Sigh. > > Yes, I still have it. Yes, I have used it (albeit not recently). Yes, > I have used the Gardner-Denver electric tool as well, although in those > days I never could have afforded it. I am not sure whether you meant "don't just own" or "just don't own", but the last time we used it was to wire wrap a 2716 eprom programmer S-100 board we designed (ok, he designed, but I helped build it) back in about 1981/82 or so. I haven't seen or thought of it since then, but seeing it in the photo instantly brought back the memory of it. I have some of the tools, others have gone missing, for instance the large tool bag at the rear of the first photo on https://slx-online.biz/hursley/ce-data-list.asp?hur_archive=2 But I do still have the tool bag identical to the one in the foreground, in the same russet brown colour but the zipper canvas has dry rotted. From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Oct 11 00:36:23 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:36:23 +0000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <93d589dbe809397c92bc69f7255d0398.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> <93d589dbe809397c92bc69f7255d0398.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20191011053622.GA2709@lonesome.com> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 03:17:38PM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > But I do still have the tool bag identical to the one in the foreground, > in the same russet brown colour but the zipper canvas has dry rotted. Oh wow, what a great resource page :-) What I kind of meant to imply was "but doesn't *everyone* have one?" Sigh. It's probably over in the same closet as my ear trumpet ... mcl From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 11 03:50:13 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 01:50:13 -0700 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/10/2019 10:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 > > are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? Always love having strands of wire (4.5" long) with a FRU. Somewhere a friend has a bag with 2 paper clips, and a FRU for that, as well as another one with 2 rubber bands.? From an upgrade from a 9221 to some other processor that showed up at our place.? All of that made a banker box full of crap that the IBM guys were going to toss, since of course they didn't need it in our case. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 11 09:58:58 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 09:58:58 -0500 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> On 10/11/2019 03:50 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/10/2019 10:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 >> >> are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? > Oh, and by the way, that is an UNWRAPPING tool in the picture, not a wire-wrap tool. (I have both.) Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 11:15:43 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:15:43 +0000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/19 12:29 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:16:34AM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit > > I ... should take it from this that people don't just *own* these anymore? > > This was an "essntial device" in my younger engineering days. Sigh. > > Yes, I still have it. Yes, I have used it (albeit not recently). Yes, > I have used the Gardner-Denver electric tool as well, although in those > days I never could have afforded it. > I have a half dozen or so wire wrap tools. Different sizes and types. And, yes, I still use mine, too. bill From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Oct 11 13:36:03 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:36:03 +0000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20191011183602.GB9005@lonesome.com> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 09:58:58AM -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Oh, and by the way, that is an UNWRAPPING tool in the picture, not a > wire-wrap tool. (I have both.) The one I have has wrap on one end, unwrap on the other end, and a stripper in the middle. mcl From robert626001 at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 15:54:50 2019 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 15:54:50 -0500 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <20191011042914.GB31418@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 11:29 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:16:34AM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit > > I ... should take it from this that people don't just *own* these anymore? One of mine has a gold coloured handle, but is otherwise very similar. I can't remember when I last used it. Somewhere, I have a box full of wire wrap tools. I keep meaning to dig it out and go through it, or at least drop it off at the local consignment place, but I never seem to get round to it. There always seems to be more to do than there is time to do it in. Heck, I'm only replying to this because I'm off sick, today! -- Robert From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 11 17:00:01 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 08:00:01 +1000 Subject: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Jon said > On 10/11/2019 03:50 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 10/10/2019 10:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 >>> >>> are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? >> > Oh, and by the way, that is an UNWRAPPING tool in the > picture, not a wire-wrap tool. (I have both.) > > Jon > Aha, thanks for clearing this up. We definately had this tool on the bench when doing the eprom programmer, I think we also had another one or two that had a spinning end, like a pin vise arrangement, they might have been blue, or we used blue wire. It was so long ago now. Steve From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 11 18:14:43 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 09:14:43 +1000 Subject: S100 2716 programmer was Re: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: References: <10614e0e-7b45-c19e-cc99-210c09614df9@bitsavers.org> <5DA098B2.5090708@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I thought I might have had some notes of the S100 2716 eprom programmer I mentioned (dad just called it the eprom burner) somewhere, and sure enough I did. I'm surprised they didn't go along with all the peripherals and doco when the S100 machine was sold sometime in the late 80s. It's on foolscap paper, an unwieldy paper size nowadays and I don't miss it. The burning code is 5 pages of z80 assembly, a few 2716 write timing diagrams, miscellaneous wiring diagrams and a rough block diagram of the thing, which I have just scanned here. It used an 8255 PPI: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/S100_2716_eprom_burner/S100_2716_programmer_block_diagram_sketch.png Steve From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 12 11:28:12 2019 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay Message-ID: There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs to get. It's for pickup only in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. See: https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 12 13:18:42 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 18:18:42 +0000 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, Look at all the drives. It looks like it even has a Diablo hard drive. I don't know what the drives that are below the 5.25 drives are?? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 9:28 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs to get. It's for pickup only in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. See: https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 13:51:38 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:51:38 -0500 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: also looks like it comes with a compaqt to interface it to something? On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 1:18 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > Wow, Look at all the drives. It looks like it even has a Diablo hard drive. > I don't know what the drives that are below the 5.25 drives are?? > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom > via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 9:28 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay > > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Oct 12 15:20:29 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:20:29 -0700 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/12/2019 11:18 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Wow, Look at all the drives. It looks like it even has a Diablo hard drive. > I don't know what the drives that are below the 5.25 drives are?? > Dwight The Compaq system and the switch on top probably have zero to do with the drive.? I suspect a half inch drive lived there and was discarded by the University so they could put that equipment in there, then they dumped the whole lot to the current owner. > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 9:28 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay > > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > > From steven at malikoff.com Sat Oct 12 16:41:02 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 07:41:02 +1000 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob said > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob I had an identical GA SPC-16, except mine had two Western Dynex 6000 drives with packs similar in appearance to RL02's (I don't think they were, just looked the same). Also had two card readers and an ASR33 and it had DBOS(?) Disk/Drum OS. The decks of cards had calculations for grains and cereals as it was installed at a breakfast cereal manufacturer. With the help of an old schoolfriend and his dad we lugged the machine down a few flights of narrow stairs in a block of flats (there was no lift), into a trailer for the cross town trip and back to my place (another flat) at the time. It was fairly heavy, although taking the drives out helped a bit. Steve From steven at malikoff.com Sat Oct 12 17:31:31 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 08:31:31 +1000 Subject: pull-out console tables Re: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ea21f593ac902d73c7252eb710c2c3f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob One other interesting thing I recall with the SPC-16 was that it had a < 1RU-high pull-out table for putting a manual on when toggling. IIRC this is the grey panel/bar immediately below the console as shown in the eBay photos. It seemed a really great idea but I've not seen any similar programmer console benches in other 70s minicomputers, although a 1978 DEC catalog I have shows they had one available as part no. A-H950-G for the H960. The line drawing seems to show it folds down rather than slides in like the GA one. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 12 18:16:42 2019 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 16:16:42 -0700 Subject: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191012161642.08a2c164@asrock> Bob, It went for $130 on eBay... Somebody got a very good deal ;) Was it you??? Lyle -- On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 09:28:12 -0700 Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From robert626001 at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 18:27:25 2019 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 18:27:25 -0500 Subject: pull-out console tables Re: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay In-Reply-To: <5ea21f593ac902d73c7252eb710c2c3f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <5ea21f593ac902d73c7252eb710c2c3f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 5:31 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > >One other interesting thing I recall with the SPC-16 was that it had a < 1RU-high pull-out > table for putting a manual on when toggling. IIRC this is the grey panel/bar immediately > below the console as shown in the eBay photos. > > It seemed a really great idea but I've not seen any similar programmer console benches in > other 70s minicomputers, although a 1978 DEC catalog I have shows they had one available > as part no. A-H950-G for the H960. The line drawing seems to show it folds down rather than > slides in like the GA one. > I have two 1U tables that came with my pdp11/34. They are the pull out type and do not fold down. I don't know whether they are DEC OEM or third party, though and either is possible as the rack that it came in was not DEC OEM either. I'm not able to look at them right now, as they're in my workshop, while I'm at home but I'll try to remember to examine them when I'm out there next week to see if I can find any part numbers or other markings. -- Robert From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 01:56:11 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 02:56:11 -0400 Subject: Wanted: 360k floppy mechs Message-ID: <8480b467ca1000b589350216fe2587f44dadd88f.camel@gmail.com> I am in the middle of refurbishing two drive controllers, a Percom At88 with doubler board, and a Percom At-88SPD. Neither has mechs and my search for them has been frustrating. The mechs are like hens teeth online, and when I find them they are insanely expensive. I know there's gotta be a pile of them out there just rusting away. I'd like to give as many as four a good home. Mechs I can use are, in order of desireability: 5.25" 40 track, double -sided, 80-track double-sided, 40 track single-sided. 3.5" mechs (preferably with adapters for 5.25" mounting, have got to have jumpers for drive number selection. Most 1.44's will work on these controllers as 720k drives if the right media is used, or, better, if the drive has jumpers to force the density select. I hate to bother with such a petty thing, but I could sure use some help getting these things running. They are nice drives. I repaired one already, and got it driving a broken MDD210, the only mech I have, but that is so flaky it is of no use other than to let me know my repairs have got the controller working again. Best, Jeff From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:35:03 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 15:35:03 +0200 Subject: Eyring PDOS - paging Camiel Vanderhoeven Message-ID: I have a odd TMS9900 machine with floppy drives that would be interesting to get an operating system runnig on. The Eyring institute PDOS looks interesting and I have found a page describing it. https://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/105%20-pdos Unfortunately none of the download links works. I sent a few mails to Camiel but it seems like they might have ended up in the garbage folder so I am trying this public mail instead and hope that it gets through! I really appreciate if the links could be fixed so that I could download a copy. And source code for the boot ROM would be nice. Or is there someone else that have a copy of the manuals and the binaries? Thanks in advance! /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 13 12:35:34 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 13:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DIBOL manual Message-ID: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? Noel From rshepprd at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 10:12:21 2019 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:12:21 -0400 Subject: Eyring PDOS - paging Camiel Vanderhoeven Message-ID: <5da33ed4.1c69fb81.9b731.e1ec@mx.google.com> I was running it on a M68k VMEbus. Version PDOS/68020 R3.3a 20-Nov-87. I believe BitSavers or archive.org has some reference material Richard Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 13 13:47:04 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 11:47:04 -0700 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/13/19 10:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" > (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL > > I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use > for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. I suppose that the original idea was to get some sort of business HLL going on a PDP-8, but no COBOL programmer would recognize the language. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 15:29:55 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 15:29:55 -0500 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC DIBOL: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my infirmity. j From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Oct 13 15:36:35 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 16:36:35 -0400 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6527d975-121f-e6dd-cdb0-482321979d62@ieee.org> If anybody still has a COS-3xx DIBOL system, I have two keys for the back doors :-) DF8 and DF32 cheers, Nigel Johnson On 13/10/2019 16:29, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf > A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a > company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC > DIBOL: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA > > Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain > the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my > infirmity. > > j -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 13 16:46:09 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 17:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DIBOL manual Message-ID: <20191013214609.2389118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. OK, so I'll change it to "vaguely COBOL-like"... :-) Seriously, though, there some high-level similarities, and not just the purpose... Noel From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 17:04:20 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 23:04:20 +0100 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: <6527d975-121f-e6dd-cdb0-482321979d62@ieee.org> References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6527d975-121f-e6dd-cdb0-482321979d62@ieee.org> Message-ID: > On 13 Oct 2019, at 21:36, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > If anybody still has a COS-3xx DIBOL system, I have two keys for the back doors :-) DF8 and DF32 > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson I have 2, assuming they both still work. I spent over 10 years as a DIBOL programmer before the unreasonable demands of people who didn?t understand coding and software development took their toll and I moved into Failed Circus. I?m hoping my MicroPDP 11/73 is complete because it?s a microcosm of my dev environment from the 80s into the early 90s. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 13 17:09:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 15:09:25 -0700 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2947ca81-8881-3445-f40a-058f544fd1a1@sydex.com> On 10/13/19 1:29 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf > > A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a > company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC > DIBOL: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA > > Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain > the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my > infirmity. Yup, I remember those. At one time, Diablo Systems was going to use those on its "Merchant" project and had even worked out a DIBOL for the Intel 8080. Later MCBA re-wrote the applications in DG Nova BASIC (IIRC). At Durango, we picked those up, wrote our own multi-user BASIC for the 8085 and 'ported the MCBA apps (AP, AL, GL, Payroll and Inventory) to our own system. Later, we ported our BASIC to Xenix and ran the same application on an 80286/80186 multi-terminal box. I still have the source code for those. --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 13 17:18:49 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 15:18:49 -0700 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: <20191013214609.2389118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191013214609.2389118C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <69ac0db8-faf4-a140-1dcc-93d00db1aaec@sydex.com> On 10/13/19 2:46 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. > > OK, so I'll change it to "vaguely COBOL-like"... :-) > > Seriously, though, there some high-level similarities, and not just > the purpose... One could argue that it's just as similar to FORTRAN (cf. computed GOTO and logical IF statements). Where it differs mainly from FORTRAN of the times is a facility for record layout, which didn't come along in FORTRAN for a couple of decades. (I'm trying to recall if it was part of F90). --Chuck From tsraguso at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:02:05 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:02:05 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL 810a Mainframe For Sale Message-ID: WAREHOUSE LIQUIDATION UPDATE: I am taking offers on an SEL 810a mainframe computer. It includes three cabinets, a Teletype Model 33 ASR, as well as a vintage wooden box filled with spare cards. This machine was installed in 1969 and retired in 2006. It is in excellent condition. It has a front panel with blinkenlights, and one of the cabinets has a Nixie tube numerical display. I have shared pictures of the main cabinet and the spare parts box at the following link. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ebc3Aj5zmgXjFosR7 Buyer must pick up all three cabinets and the Teletype. Best offer will be accepted. Thomas Raguso From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:18:39 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 18:18:39 -0700 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL 810a Mainframe For Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whereabouts is this located? When does it need to be picked up by? Thanks, Josh On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 6:02 PM Thomas Raguso via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > WAREHOUSE LIQUIDATION UPDATE: > > I am taking offers on an SEL 810a mainframe computer. It includes three > cabinets, a Teletype Model 33 ASR, as well as a vintage wooden box filled > with spare cards. This machine was installed in 1969 and retired in 2006. > It is in excellent condition. It has a front panel with blinkenlights, and > one of the cabinets has a Nixie tube numerical display. I have shared > pictures of the main cabinet and the spare parts box at the following link. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ebc3Aj5zmgXjFosR7 > > Buyer must pick up all three cabinets and the Teletype. Best offer will be > accepted. > > Thomas Raguso > From steven at malikoff.com Sun Oct 13 20:31:46 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:31:46 +1000 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL 810a Mainframe For Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c6ba41a14315b37efbce71f7293478d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Thomas said > I am taking offers on an SEL 810a mainframe computer. It includes three > cabinets, a Teletype Model 33 ASR, as well as a vintage wooden box filled > with spare cards. This machine was installed in 1969 and retired in 2006. > It is in excellent condition. It has a front panel with blinkenlights, and > one of the cabinets has a Nixie tube numerical display. I have shared > pictures of the main cabinet and the spare parts box at the following link. > https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ebc3Aj5zmgXjFosR7 The Digitronics paper tape reader in it is same as the PDP-7 reader, and only a very tiny cosmetic change from the Foxboro FOX-2 reader. Seeing the shiny bit on the output side I'm guessing there should be the two brushed stainless steel hoppers with six-sided front cutouts for the input and output, is anything like this around? Steve. From tsraguso at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 20:37:07 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:37:07 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL 810a Mainframe For Sale In-Reply-To: <8c6ba41a14315b37efbce71f7293478d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <8c6ba41a14315b37efbce71f7293478d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: The paper tape reader has a spool on the right side, and there is also a basket that hangs downward (not pictured). The screws that protrude outwards are to hang the basket. I did not see any evidence that the machine had the hoppers you described. Thomas Raguso On Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 20:31 wrote: > Thomas said > > I am taking offers on an SEL 810a mainframe computer. It includes three > > cabinets, a Teletype Model 33 ASR, as well as a vintage wooden box filled > > with spare cards. This machine was installed in 1969 and retired in 2006. > > It is in excellent condition. It has a front panel with blinkenlights, > and > > one of the cabinets has a Nixie tube numerical display. I have shared > > pictures of the main cabinet and the spare parts box at the following > link. > > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ebc3Aj5zmgXjFosR7 > > The Digitronics paper tape reader in it is same as the PDP-7 reader, and > only a very tiny > cosmetic change from the Foxboro FOX-2 reader. Seeing the shiny bit on the > output side > I'm guessing there should be the two brushed stainless steel hoppers with > six-sided front > cutouts for the input and output, is anything like this around? > > Steve. > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 13 22:59:51 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:59:51 -0700 Subject: SEL mainframe Message-ID: I think this is the guy who has the warehouse full of crap in Texas that was going to be scrapped, but now has its own facebook group. If you find and join the group, there are photos of it there. https://www.facebook.com/groups/433516373950693/ Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation (Houston) thanks Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 23:17:01 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 21:17:01 -0700 Subject: SEL mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. I made an offer, I probably can't afford what he wants though, given the shipping involved. How you doing these days? - Josh On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 9:00 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think this is the guy who has the warehouse full of crap in Texas that > was going to be scrapped, but now has its own facebook group. > > If you find and join the group, there are photos of it there. > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/433516373950693/ > > Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation (Houston) > > thanks > Jim > > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Sun Oct 13 16:35:36 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 21:35:36 +0000 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> , Message-ID: In 1981-1987 i worked for a company that used the MCBA system subroutines to develop a system to do trust plan administration for labor unions. Mostly it was remote data entry by the unions themselves over leased lines using black box modems. The MCBA routines were pretty clever and solid. The screen routines used vt100 escape sequences to make "fill in" fields which then could be made to resemble a form. It ran on pdp 11/70. In 1982 we converted it to run on a VAX 780. Hardest part was converting from (i think) DMS 11 ( i think that was what the file system was called) to RMS. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 13, 2019, at 13:30, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf > > A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a > company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC > DIBOL: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA > > Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain > the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my > infirmity. > > j From marvin at west.net Mon Oct 14 00:48:21 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:48:21 -0700 Subject: qubex qa2000 disk tester Message-ID: <90dd5634-d36f-f4a0-4080-6a8bf737ad4f@west.net> Is anyone here familiar with this disk tester? I'm actually looking for the operators manual or even better/more unlikely a service manual. I found this while digging through some of the "stuff" I've accumulated over the past 40 years or so. Marvin From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 09:18:14 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 15:18:14 +0100 Subject: More DEC stuff available, Newmarket UK Message-ID: Hello folks, We've had another shipment of retired DEC kit come in that's free to good homes but it has to be either collected or earmarked for collection by Thursday 17th October, I realise this isn't giving people much notice. Alpha 4100 5/300, single CPU, 3GB RAM, DE450, KZPAAx2, FDDI, pedestal enclosure with door VAX 3100-95, 16MB RAM DECserver 300 various DEChub900 modules BA356 x2, no disks TZ887 autoloader x2 VT320 + LK201 3x IBM RS6000s DEREP ethernet repeater DELL PowerVault 120T External SDLT1 External TZ87 Location is CB8 7NY Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 14 11:32:25 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:32:25 -0500 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? Message-ID: What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker so I can get a good dump of a tape? I don?t need a long-term fix since tapes themselves are in exceedingly bad condition and are unlikely to survive more than one read. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Oct 14 14:03:11 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:03:11 +0000 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/13/19 5:35 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > In 1981-1987 i worked for a company that used the MCBA system subroutines to develop a system to do trust plan administration for labor unions. Mostly it was remote data entry by the unions themselves over leased lines using black box modems. The MCBA routines were pretty clever and solid. The screen routines used vt100 escape sequences to make "fill in" fields which then could be made to resemble a form. > It ran on pdp 11/70. In 1982 we converted it to run on a VAX 780. Hardest part was converting from (i think) DMS 11 ( i think that was what the file system was called) to RMS. > DMS-11 was Univac's CODASYL Database system running on the 1100. I believe it still exists today running on the 2200 from Unisys. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 14 14:26:55 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:26:55 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/14/19 9:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker replace it there were rolls of brady BOT tape on ebay but I don't see them now From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 14 14:43:56 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 15:43:56 -0400 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:26:55 -0700.) References: Message-ID: <20191014194356.DB3A828D9C4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker > replace it > there were rolls of brady BOT tape on ebay but I don't see them now Actually, it would be helpful when googling to know what this sort of thing is used for in the _modern_ world. Presumably any NOS on ebay that was made to be bot/eot markers for 9track or similar is going to have aged adhesive now. The "real thing" is, what, quarter inch wide by 1.5-2 inches long? Slightly less than quarter inch? Seems like you might be able to cut something like this into appropriately sized strips: https://www.uline.com/BL_6448/Metalized-Mylar-Tape De From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 14 14:46:56 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:46:56 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> On 10/14/19 12:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/14/19 9:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker > > replace it > > there were rolls of brady BOT tape on ebay but I don't see them now There are still people selling sensing foil tape for audio applications. That might work well. Search for "sensing foil tape" on eBay. --Chuck From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Oct 14 15:05:40 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:05:40 -0400 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> References: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> Message-ID: <19dfb676-13f3-0b7d-651a-b01d85451d3e@ieee.org> I have a very old roll of this that I used to put on to 9 track mag tape in the DEC world: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOTCH-65-7-32-X-100-NOS-ALUMINUM-FOIL-SPLICING-SENSING-TAPE-4-OPEN-REEL-DECKS-/192282792454 It is not the adhesive that fails, it is the metallised tape itself - I just tried peeling some off and it just fell apart :-) cheers, Nigel On 14/10/2019 15:46, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/14/19 12:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/14/19 9:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >>> What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker >> replace it >> >> there were rolls of brady BOT tape on ebay but I don't see them now > There are still people selling sensing foil tape for audio applications. > That might work well. Search for "sensing foil tape" on eBay. > > --Chuck -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 14 16:53:28 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:53:28 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: <19dfb676-13f3-0b7d-651a-b01d85451d3e@ieee.org> References: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> <19dfb676-13f3-0b7d-651a-b01d85451d3e@ieee.org> Message-ID: <3d8b9c2a-2114-398c-3494-484bf1a05ff9@sydex.com> On 10/14/19 1:05 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I have a very old roll of this that I used to put on to 9 track mag tape > in the DEC world: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCOTCH-65-7-32-X-100-NOS-ALUMINUM-FOIL-SPLICING-SENSING-TAPE-4-OPEN-REEL-DECKS-/192282792454 > > > It is not the adhesive that fails, it is the metallised tape itself - I > just tried peeling some off and it just fell apart :-) I'm still using the handy IBM dispenser-on-a-card for mine. Very cool--feeds from a roll and separates inch-long strips from the backing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 14 16:57:10 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:57:10 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e54db7-4799-4c9d-01ef-1d589927209a@sydex.com> Oh, there are still a couple of the real (reel?) things available on eBay: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/650-SENSING-MARKERS-3M-FOR-OLD-COMPUTERS-IBM-APPLE-AND-OTHER-VERY-RARE-/151593837933 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Oct 14 17:49:31 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 15:49:31 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> References: <42db109a-aa97-cce9-b897-6b64037c41b0@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A9E8321-8767-4282-BC15-B666496E886C@shaw.ca> On 2019-Oct-14, at 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/14/19 12:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/14/19 9:32 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >>> What?s the best way to restore a dull BOT marker >> >> replace it >> >> there were rolls of brady BOT tape on ebay but I don't see them now > > There are still people selling sensing foil tape for audio applications. > That might work well. Search for "sensing foil tape" on eBay. For the sake of a couple of passes through the transport how, about some really thin Al foil - like that which some chocolate, or cigarettes, are wrapped in - stuck on with common transparent office tape. The tape would cover the Al edges so those edges wouldn't directly transit across anything in the transport path, but it's on the opposite side from heads anyways. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 14 19:41:17 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 17:41:17 -0700 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: <00e54db7-4799-4c9d-01ef-1d589927209a@sydex.com> References: <00e54db7-4799-4c9d-01ef-1d589927209a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1a4fc366-5423-b2eb-6b26-ca163810ae20@bitsavers.org> cool, that was the stuff I remembered seeing On 10/14/19 2:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Oh, there are still a couple of the real (reel?) things available on eBay: > > https://www.ebay.ie/itm/650-SENSING-MARKERS-3M-FOR-OLD-COMPUTERS-IBM-APPLE-AND-OTHER-VERY-RARE-/151593837933 > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 23:03:38 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 00:03:38 -0400 Subject: Kennett Classic Opens This Friday Message-ID: Hi - I was not going to write about this here until I was pretty sure we were on track, but it looks like we are go to open our new vintage computer gallery and hobby shop this Friday. If you're local to the Philadelphia/Baltimore area, look us up and better yet, pop in for a visit. Our first feature exhibit will be a Commodore History, but we also have a lot from the 1950's through the 70's on display to tell some of the lesser-known tales before the microcomputer era. The idea here is to bring vintage computing to the local community via something that they can identify with (i.e. Commodore) but also have historical depth for those of us who have a passion for the history of computing. For more details our new URL is. https://www.kennettclassic.com/ Thanks Bill vintagecomputer.net kennettclassic.com From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Oct 15 09:09:58 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:09:58 -0500 Subject: Restoring dull BOT markers? In-Reply-To: <1a4fc366-5423-b2eb-6b26-ca163810ae20@bitsavers.org> References: <00e54db7-4799-4c9d-01ef-1d589927209a@sydex.com> <1a4fc366-5423-b2eb-6b26-ca163810ae20@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <15B77830-E673-4CBD-BB2B-B5070430C8FE@lunar-tokyo.net> Went to the hardware store looking for the 3M tape, found some aluminum foil tape for HVAC duct work. It?s a hair thick, but works just fine. Worked on 5 out of 5 tapes it was tried on so far. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Oct 15 09:51:02 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:51:02 -0500 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? Message-ID: While dumping lispm tapes, I found one with a label saying "Read it into DRAL" (may be "DRAC"?) "and sent a message to cap's bboard saying where it can be found. -Bob?. There was another paper label that had fallen off. What I think is the label in question was later found in the bottom of the box, a strip of masking tape saying ?SPACEWAR FOR VAX (Unix?)?. The contents are a 136KB tar archive containing source to a program called ?orbit?, all files are dated August 22nd, 1983. The README file follows: ?? To install orbit: 1. Do a 'make all'. 2. Make sure the directories on the path /usr/games/lib/orbit/* all exist and are writable by you (except /usr, of course). 3. Do a 'make install'. This should work with no changes on Berkeley 4.2, unless the structure for the console keyboard buffer has been changed. The crock that reads the up-down codes here should be changed to use the real ROM-table hooks, anyway. Unfortunately, all that nice stuff is in protected memory. Enjoy! - Bob Bane (bane.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay) ?? Does anyone know what this is? The (gzipped) tar file is at https://www.bogodyne.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/orbit.tar.gz From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 15 10:07:17 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DIBOL manual Message-ID: <20191015150717.AC7B318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > One could argue that it's just as similar to FORTRAN (cf. computed GOTO > and logical IF statements). It probably worth pointing out that I never used COBOL, and have little knowledge of it. So when one reads "it is vaguely reminiscent of COBOL, as it has a 'Data Division' and a 'Procedure Division'", I must have copied that all from some source I found, because I don't know what the 'Data Division' and a 'Procedure Division' are (although I can guess from the names). > Where it differs mainly from FORTRAN of the times is a facility for > record layout I seem to recall that COBOL was the first language with support for structures? If DIBOL has support for them too, which would be another similarity between the two. Noel From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Oct 15 10:02:34 2019 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:02:34 +0200 Subject: Fwd: IBM MST extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <621e6ff6-f05f-c580-9d26-1bef6dd8f51d@hccnet.nl> Hi Al, On the surface 3V & 1.2V is printed. This is a MST-4 card extender. MST-1 & MST-2 are different. I was also interested, but the seller was not willing to ship them to Europe :-( Regards Henk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 15 11:27:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:27:43 -0700 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: <20191015150717.AC7B318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191015150717.AC7B318C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5bd6a5f6-82a7-3b0f-d28b-64e754ea8532@sydex.com> On 10/15/19 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I seem to recall that COBOL was the first language with support for > structures? If DIBOL has support for them too, which would be > another similarity between the two. Both FLOW-MATIC (1953) and COMTRAN (1957) had support for data structures, though the data structure notation was not part of the program procedure. FLOW-MATIC placed the structure and naming information on data tapes (pretty novel for the period) and COMTRAN put the specification of data structure on separate fixed-field section the program input. The general idea (as explained in Grace Hopper's FLOW-MATIC description) was to make the data record structuring an independent task. She mentions being able to work out the procedure section before designing the data layout. I suspect that her record layout is one of the earliest DDLs. COBOL built on this. Looking at the procedure section of COMTRAN or FLOW-MATIC programs, there's no mistaking them as COBOL predecessors. DIBOL, not so much. COBOL, by the late 60s was a very complex language, so much so that the initial S/360 DOS releases were incomplete; they lacked support for ISAM files. Somewhere, I have an IBM document that describes the machine-language subroutines that were provided to fill the gap temporarily via the "ENTER LINKAGE" statement. I'm not at all certain that FLOW-MATIC had the first structured data description language, but it was pretty close. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 12:11:59 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 13:11:59 -0400 Subject: Free mid-vintage Macs and a WP in St Cloud Minnesota for pickup Message-ID: This came in, please contact me through https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm and I will forward your info to the person who requested a rescue so you can work it out, first come first served. Bill -------- Original Message -------- > From: ---- > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 12:58 PM > To: ----- > Subject: VintageComputer.net Inquiry > > VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: Richard Lynch > Email: ------ Phone: ---- > ------------------------- > Comments: > Hi Bill, > I live in Texas but I have family in Minnesota (St Cloud) looking for someone local to give a new home to a small group of older Macs and a word processor. There are 3 old iMacs, an eMac, an LCII and a Performa 627CD. The word processor is a vintage Smith Corona PWP 3100. Everything is single owner and well kept in a smoke free/pet free home. It's all free and we can deliver in St Cloud, but it all must go - no cherry picking please. Do you think anyone in the group can help? > Thanks, > Richard > VintageComputer.net --------------------------------------------------------------- From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Oct 15 13:57:28 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:57:28 +0200 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 09:51:02AM -0500, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > While dumping lispm tapes, I found one with a label saying "Read it > into DRAL" (may be "DRAC"?) "and sent a message to cap's bboard > saying where it can be found. -Bob?. There was another paper label > that had fallen off. What I think is the label in question was later > found in the bottom of the box, a strip of masking tape saying > ?SPACEWAR FOR VAX (Unix?)?. The contents are a 136KB tar archive > containing source to a program called ?orbit?, all files are dated > August 22nd, 1983. > I unpacked it. The beginning of orbit.man says: -------------------- .SH NAME orbit \- Spacewar on the Sun .SH SYNOPSIS .B orbit .PP .B orbit ... [-O ] .SH DESCRIPTION The classic game of interplanetary death and destruction. Mostly written in C; an assembler package does fast single-precision floating-point for orbital calculations and collision detection. .PP Most of the game's basic parameters are changeable; parameter sets can be saved and reloaded from option files. If the file .orbitrc exists in your -------------------- and the fp.s file looks to me like a Motorola assembler, but I may be wrong. In main.c there are references to something like graphics routines making use of framebuffer. The structure of filesystem mentioned in Makefile hints towards Unix-like system. I would say, after very quick looking, it is rather for SunOS, not for anything DEC-made. I wonder if others may come to different conclusions? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From edcross at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 14:26:41 2019 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:26:41 +0200 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Sun On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:57 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 09:51:02AM -0500, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk > wrote: > > While dumping lispm tapes, I found one with a label saying "Read it > > into DRAL" (may be "DRAC"?) "and sent a message to cap's bboard > > saying where it can be found. -Bob?. There was another paper label > > that had fallen off. What I think is the label in question was later > > found in the bottom of the box, a strip of masking tape saying > > ?SPACEWAR FOR VAX (Unix?)?. The contents are a 136KB tar archive > > containing source to a program called ?orbit?, all files are dated > > August 22nd, 1983. > > > > I unpacked it. The beginning of orbit.man says: > > -------------------- > .SH NAME > orbit \- Spacewar on the Sun > .SH SYNOPSIS > .B > orbit > .PP > .B > orbit ... [-O ] > .SH DESCRIPTION > The classic game of interplanetary death and destruction. > Mostly written in C; an assembler package does fast single-precision > floating-point for orbital calculations and collision detection. > .PP > Most of the game's basic parameters are changeable; > parameter sets can be saved and reloaded from option files. > If the file .orbitrc exists in your > -------------------- > > and the fp.s file looks to me like a Motorola assembler, but I may be > wrong. In main.c there are references to something like graphics > routines making use of framebuffer. The structure of filesystem > mentioned in Makefile hints towards Unix-like system. > > I would say, after very quick looking, it is rather for SunOS, not for > anything DEC-made. > > I wonder if others may come to different conclusions? > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 15 14:29:39 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:29:39 -0500 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20191015192951.D285F2747A@mx1.ezwind.net> At 01:57 PM 10/15/2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >I would say, after very quick looking, it is rather for SunOS, not for >anything DEC-made. I wonder if others may come to different conclusions? Have you tried googling for Bob Nane of U-Maryland? He wrote a few papers. Last tracks I saw for him were in 2004 at GST in Greenbelt, MD. Bob Bane or - John From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 15 19:18:53 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:18:53 -0500 Subject: DIBOL manual In-Reply-To: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20191013173534.99C8618C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/13/2019 12:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" > (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL > > I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use > for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? > > Noel > > A friend of mine back in the day worked for a local company using Timeshared DIBOL. He found so many bugs that DEC eventually hired him. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 15 19:25:29 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:25:29 -0500 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <41E2D0DE-1216-47A8-BDD0-E129E5822AEC@shiresoft.com> References: <20191003160139.668C018C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <122A78B6-E74D-44AF-9039-53EA8FE556E0@comcast.net> <41E2D0DE-1216-47A8-BDD0-E129E5822AEC@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <595f26c6-e688-f8b7-fb8b-f0ab1978eb4c@charter.net> On 10/3/2019 1:04 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 10/3/19 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> The PDP-6 and KA10 (basically a re-implementation of the PDP-6 architecture) >>>> both had cheapo versions where addresses 0-15 were in main memory, but also >>>> had an option for real registers, e.g. in the PDP-6: "The Type 162 Fast >>>> Memory Module contains 16 words with a 0.4 usecond cycle." The KA10 has >>>> a similar "fast memory option". >>> >>> A bit more contemporary example might be the low-end PIC >>> microcontrollers (e.g. the 12F series). Harvard architecture (14 bit >>> instructions, 8 bit data), but data is variously described as >>> "registers" (when used an instruction operand) or "memory" when >>> addressed indirectly. That is, the 64 bytes of SRAM can be referred to >>> as either a memory location or as a register operand. >> >> Then again, the PDP-10 has that "two ways to refer to it" as well. In that case, you do have dedicated register logic, and what happens is that memory addresses 0-15 are instead redirected to the register array. The same applies to the EL-X8. The way you can address things doesn't necessarily tell you what sort of storage mechanism is used for it. >> > > So does the PDP-11. The 8 registers are mapped to the top 8 words of memory so you can do some quite interesting things. It is also possible to run a (small) program in only the registers (e.g. no memory at all). > > TTFN - Guy > > FYI, not ALL PDP-11 implementations can do this. In particular, the J11 (used in PDP-11/73 and others) does not map the registers into memory locations. I suspect, but have not verified, that any PDP-11 processor with multiple register sets (e.g., one for user one for kernel, etc.) are likely to behave this way. (One on one reply since the message was quite old.) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 15 19:26:37 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:26:37 -0500 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> References: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: On 10/4/2019 6:43 AM, David via cctalk wrote: > 1976, UCSD. So I was using your Lisp. > > I got a position on the UCSD Pascal project half way through that year (reunion in just 2 weeks). So I?m very familiar with the p-code and how all that works as well. > > In 1978 I discovered Unix on a 780 in the 4th(?) floor lab and made the switch from Pascal to C. Been a hard core Unix developer ever since. As a result my name appears in almost all Apple products in the legal section. > > David > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:16 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: >> >> David...where did you use Lisp on a B6700? >> >> Bill Gord and I wrote the first INTERLISP interpreter for the B6700 back around >> 1974-1975, on a DARPA contract, at UCSD. (At the start, it was to implement BBNLISP, >> but the name changed during the project :) >> >> DARPA found that researchers using INTERLISP (or others) on Dec PDP10s (and similar) were hampered by the limited address space (256K virtual memory). The B6700 offered a significantly larger address space (and many other features, of course :) >> (I know our LISP got distributed to other Burroughs sites in those days, >> just like our STARTREK and Bob Jardine's SOLAR.) >> >> Danny Bobrow (with Xerox PARC at the time) came and helped us get started. >> I met Warren Teitelman ... he had no idea that the cover of the INTERLISP manual was an homage to his last name. (See: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/interlisp/Interlisp_Reference_Manual_Oct_1974.pdf ) >> >> We got our system up and running, including DWIM and other packages, and were told ... oops, DEC figured out how to expand the amount of virtual memory on the PDP-10, so we don't need to buy Burroughs mainframes now! >> >> Our INTERLISP was a full interpreter, and also had a compiler to LISP p-code, which might have inspired UCSD Pascal's p-code (Ken Bowles was our boss). >> >> I believe I have the source, in Burroughs ALGOL. >> >> As a side bonus, I got to interact with Danny, and people from PARC and BBN as we were watching other UCSD Computer Center people put the B6700 on the ARPANET. (I think we were something like the 25th computer.) >> >> Stan Sieler >> >> > > FYI there is a Burroughs 5500 simulator out there that runs ALGOL just fine. Let me know if you want a pointer to the developer. JRJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 15 19:37:47 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:37:47 -0400 Subject: LISP implementations on small machines In-Reply-To: References: <72F170A3-6536-4F56-AA05-BFDEC9DAA7B0@kdbarto.org> Message-ID: <00022E17-A033-4B37-A364-B4C50907AD02@comcast.net> > On Oct 15, 2019, at 8:26 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > ... > FYI there is a Burroughs 5500 simulator out there that runs ALGOL just > fine. Let me know if you want a pointer to the developer. B5500 simulation is part of the current SIMH. Apart from that, you can of course run ALGOL on a number of other machines, including PDP11, CDC Cyber, IBM 360, and others. paul From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Oct 15 20:06:52 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 03:06:52 +0200 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: <20191015192951.D285F2747A@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20191015185727.GA2162@tau1.ceti.pl> <20191015192951.D285F2747A@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191016010652.GB2162@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 02:29:39PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 01:57 PM 10/15/2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > >I would say, after very quick looking, it is rather for SunOS, not for > >anything DEC-made. I wonder if others may come to different conclusions? > > Have you tried googling for Bob Nane of U-Maryland? He wrote a few papers. > > Last tracks I saw for him were in 2004 at GST in Greenbelt, MD. > > Bob Bane or I made some searches on double duck, after you asked. There is not so much info and what is there is not helpful. I found one BBane a chess player (but borne in 1981), one who talks about afterlife and another one who was police chief in Paxton IL, but two years ago mayor let him go because the chief gave speed ticket to one of mayor's employees. BTW, Paxton is full of life, if I am to believe their local news - speed chases, dead guys in wrecked cars (those were not running away, if I am correct), oh my. I have no idea what to make of this :-) After consulting wikipedia, the date on the files (Aug 22, 1983) are before release of SunOS 1.0 (Nov 1983) and after SunOS 0.7 (1982). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From mj at mjturner.net Wed Oct 16 07:00:42 2019 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:00:42 +0100 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191016120042.lkd4p45h7tfyfgmi@saucer.turnde.net> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 09:51:02AM -0500, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >Does anyone know what this is? Very interesting find. I can see updown.c #includes sunromvec.h, which I believe is a Sun Microsystems include. Checking a copy of that file that's available online, some of the definitions used (eg v_Keybuf) suggest that the code dates from around the time period of the Sun-1 (as Tomasz Rola suggested). Perhaps someone on the TUHS list[1] can shed more light on it? [1] https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs Cheers, MJ -- Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 16 07:33:03 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:33:03 -0500 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: <20191016120042.lkd4p45h7tfyfgmi@saucer.turnde.net> References: <20191016120042.lkd4p45h7tfyfgmi@saucer.turnde.net> Message-ID: <20191016123315.2AC684E673@mx2.ezwind.net> At 07:00 AM 10/16/2019, you wrote: >Perhaps someone on the TUHS list[1] can shed more light on it? I emailed Bane last night at the addresses I found, and they did not immediately bounce, FWIW. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 16 11:16:00 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:16:00 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Project?= Message-ID: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> anyone know what happened to this? the last sign of the web site was in 2010 https://web.archive.org/web/20100314165117/http://www.sdu.se:80/computer-automation-museum/ someone just asked about some floppies that I had archived in 2008, and noticed most of the CA stuff on the web has vanished From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 16 11:23:59 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:23:59 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Proje?= =?UTF-8?Q?ct?= In-Reply-To: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: they got their own domain, but that vanished in 2017 and the wayback machine didn't pick up most of the pdf scanned manuals https://web.archive.org/web/20171028041403/http://computer-automation-museum.org/ca/ On 10/16/19 9:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > anyone know what happened to this? > > the last sign of the web site was in 2010 > > https://web.archive.org/web/20100314165117/http://www.sdu.se:80/computer-automation-museum/ > > someone just asked about some floppies that I had archived in 2008, and noticed most of the > CA stuff on the web has vanished > > From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Oct 16 11:42:15 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:42:15 +0200 Subject: Lars =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hamr=E9n?= / Computer Automation Museum Project In-Reply-To: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ons 2019-10-16 klockan 09:16 -0700 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk: > anyone know what happened to this? > > the last sign of the web site was in 2010 > > https://web.archive.org/web/20100314165117/http://www.sdu.se:80/computer-automation-museum/ > > someone just asked about some floppies that I had archived in 2008, > and noticed most of the > CA stuff on the web has vanished > > svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) His name is i believe Lars Nordenstr?m , not Lars Hamr?n check out for example: https://www.sdu.se/blog/outdoor-programming/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 16 12:00:55 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:00:55 +0200 Subject: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hamr=E9?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n?= / Computer Automation Museum Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) > > There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I have met him when he picked up some CA computers from a friend. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 16 12:01:49 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:01:49 +0200 Subject: Lars =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hamr=E9?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n?= / Computer Automation Museum Project In-Reply-To: <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:00:55PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > > > svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) > > > > > > There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I > have met him when he picked up some CA computers from > a friend. > > /P And I can reach out to him and ask bout the page. /P From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 16 12:13:55 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:13:55 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Proje?= =?UTF-8?Q?ct?= In-Reply-To: <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> there was an email adr on the site, and I've asked if I can mirror the contents on bitsavers On 10/16/19 10:01 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:00:55PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) >>> >>> >> >> There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I >> have met him when he picked up some CA computers from >> a friend. >> >> /P > > And I can reach out to him and ask bout the page. > > /P > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 16 13:15:56 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:15:56 -0500 Subject: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? In-Reply-To: <20191016123315.2AC684E673@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20191016120042.lkd4p45h7tfyfgmi@saucer.turnde.net> <20191016123315.2AC684E673@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191016181610.31E46273D1@mx1.ezwind.net> At 07:33 AM 10/16/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >At 07:00 AM 10/16/2019, you wrote: >>Perhaps someone on the TUHS list[1] can shed more light on it? > >I emailed Bane last night at the addresses I found, and they did not >immediately bounce, FWIW. From: Bob Bane To: John Foust Subject: Re: I apparently have Spacewar for Unix? Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:09:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Yep, that's mine. There was a tradition in the Maryland CS department at the time that right after your thesis topic was approved, you would go off and do something completely unrelated for a bit, before going into dissertation coding mode. We had just gotten several new Sun workstations - 68000 CPU, monochrome display with bitblt hardware. I spent the summer writing a 4-player spacewar game for it. The program did all sorts of unportable horrible things in the name of speed: * Ships could point in 256 directions - each ship had 256 pre-computed rotated pictures, one for each angle * There were also 256 entry tables for ship thrust and bomb velocity change * Orbital calculations were done in assembler, to force single precision floating point All the controls were on the keyboard; it was barely possible to get four people's hands on at a time. There was no published interface to get keyrise/keyfall, but the ring buffer for key events was readable, so the program monitored its contents and swiped the key codes as they appeared. Ships could be user-created - each ship design was a file of 31 lines, of 31 characters where '*' was a lit pixel and '.' was a thruster pixel (lit when the engine was running). A program read the ship design files and pre-computed the rotated ship pictures. Stuff like the strength of gravity, power of ship engines, speed of repeat firing for bombs, etc. were all set in a parameter file, so you could have slow, majestic orbits, or fast ones, or no gravity at all. Thanks for letting me know this was found - I might still have a copy in my ancient archives, but this is a welcome refresh. - Bob From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 16 14:00:32 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:00:32 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Proje?= =?UTF-8?Q?ct?= In-Reply-To: <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6c38824c-df53-0422-0b07-4a93435622b6@jwsss.com> My contacts went dead with him, and all the emails no longer work for me.? I reached out to him a couple years ago. He managed to get Martin Richards machine from Cambridge University on which a lot of BCPL and other development work was performed. There was no communication of him having any problem, if anyone can find him, I'd be glad to hear from him. thanks Jim On 10/16/2019 10:13 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > there was an email adr on the site, and I've asked if I can mirror the > contents on bitsavers > > > On 10/16/19 10:01 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 07:00:55PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 06:42:15PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: >>>> svensk datorutveckling i lund (swedish computer development in Lund) >>>> >>>> >>> There is/was a Lars Hamr?n at sdu. I know because I >>> have met him when he picked up some CA computers from >>> a friend. >>> >>> /P >> And I can reach out to him and ask bout the page. >> >> /P >> > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 15:09:25 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 22:09:25 +0200 Subject: Strange DEC stuff. Message-ID: An ex-DEC engineer offloaded some strange stuff that was going to the skip. I just thought I could have a look. But what is it? There is two backplanes marked KA14 and BE14. I thought it was the PDP-14, but I am not sure really. https://i.imgur.com/86tcLFz.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BWiCz8l.jpg I came together with a similar sized PSU. Then there was a strange DEC workshop built paper tape reader. The reader mechanics looks similar to PC04 and PC05 but is smaller. The wheel is smaller and the stepper motor is smaller as well. Are these parts from some other DEC reader they cobbled together at DEC for inhouse duty. https://i.imgur.com/0zv55pP.jpg https://i.imgur.com/rE423Hi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/8th1y3Z.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VKoH2LX.jpg Any clues? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 16 15:35:11 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:35:11 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Lars_Hamr=c3=a9n_/_Computer_Automation_Museum_Proje?= =?UTF-8?Q?ct?= In-Reply-To: <6c38824c-df53-0422-0b07-4a93435622b6@jwsss.com> References: <0f85083f-95f8-0c25-b3e3-4922d9d3ccb0@bitsavers.org> <20191016170055.aejngcuuopxlaoli@Update.UU.SE> <20191016170149.mn5lbiw6tf3e5mfg@Update.UU.SE> <02654cae-e830-4e41-4a1a-fff42983827b@bitsavers.org> <6c38824c-df53-0422-0b07-4a93435622b6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1a90e672-7db8-38fb-7d8d-1a881f07eaec@bitsavers.org> On 10/16/19 12:00 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > My contacts went dead with him, and all the emails no longer work for me.? I reached out to him a couple years ago. > > He managed to get Martin Richards machine from Cambridge University on which a lot of BCPL and other development work > was performed. > Hopefully, someone downloaded the pdfs Pontus? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 16 16:16:12 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:16:12 -0700 Subject: Strange DEC stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cb8d8d2-5661-a8e4-48e0-2c9e3f337adb@jwsss.com> On 10/16/2019 1:09 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > An ex-DEC engineer offloaded some strange stuff that was going to the skip. > I just thought I could have a look. But what is it? > > There is two backplanes marked KA14 and BE14. I thought it was the PDP-14, > but I am not sure really. Bitsavers Options_and_Modules_List_197406.pdf contains the BE14 and KA14 as PDP 14, I'd guess that too.? Just looked up the M743 module, and it is reference to the same. They match blocks I have from PDP 11 though, not sure of the history of the PDP 14 at this point, maybe shared the hardware. > > https://i.imgur.com/86tcLFz.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/BWiCz8l.jpg > > I came together with a similar sized PSU. > > Then there was a strange DEC workshop built paper tape reader. The reader > mechanics looks similar to PC04 and PC05 but is smaller. The wheel is > smaller and the stepper motor is smaller as well. Are these parts from some > other DEC reader they cobbled together at DEC for inhouse duty. > > https://i.imgur.com/0zv55pP.jpg << This looks a lot like the spine of a 1949 cage minus the sides.? With a few bits of stuff > https://i.imgur.com/rE423Hi.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/8th1y3Z.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/VKoH2LX.jpg Someone saved the bits and pieces of a reader from the looks of it w/o the front mounting plate. > Any clues? > > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 17:20:11 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:20:11 -0500 Subject: Strange DEC stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mattis, I think It's PDP-14 stuff also. I'd be interested in trading for it to put it with the rest of my 14 stuff. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 3:09 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > An ex-DEC engineer offloaded some strange stuff that was going to the skip. > I just thought I could have a look. But what is it? > > There is two backplanes marked KA14 and BE14. I thought it was the PDP-14, > but I am not sure really. > > https://i.imgur.com/86tcLFz.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/BWiCz8l.jpg > > I came together with a similar sized PSU. > > Then there was a strange DEC workshop built paper tape reader. The reader > mechanics looks similar to PC04 and PC05 but is smaller. The wheel is > smaller and the stepper motor is smaller as well. Are these parts from some > other DEC reader they cobbled together at DEC for inhouse duty. > > https://i.imgur.com/0zv55pP.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/rE423Hi.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/8th1y3Z.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/VKoH2LX.jpg > > Any clues? > From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Thu Oct 17 08:16:22 2019 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 14:16:22 +0100 Subject: looking for a program - last gasp questions Message-ID: Not star-trek.... I am trying to track down the source of a unix game ..... Years and years ago - 1980s - I was in the Computing Science Department at Strathclyde Uni.? and we had a bunch of BSD4 systems running on VAXen. I have memory of - but have never located - a curses based 24 x 80 display - multi-user "space-war" game that allowed you to navigate around a 3D universe with the 24 x 80 giving you a full screen view of the universe.. In the game you could * hunt the universe for aliens (like "shankers" I cant remember the others), * other players - you saw them as they saw you you could also team up with other players to have more firepower and call for help using a 1-line on screen chat/broadcast system, there were planet(s) scattered about - that you could hide behind. The students and I modified the program with some "special features".? I cant remember if the name of program was changed too ;-( Anyway we knew the game as "search", it was written in C - it was a good test of serial output capability of the VAXen - it was also a great way to teach students about the VI keys - since hjkl worked as expected for movement (at least that was out excuse to the prof when caught playing the game during the day). From my poor description can anybody tie down what I am looking for? Appreciated Iain From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 11:55:09 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:55:09 -0400 Subject: looking for a program - last gasp questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: are you thinking of conquest? https://github.com/jtrulson/conquest conquest Conquest is a top-down, real time space warfare game. It was originally written in RATFOR for the VAX/VMS system in 1983 by Jef Poskanzer and Craig Leres. I spent incredible amounts of time playing this game with my friends in the terminal labs at college, and when I actually had a multi-user system running at home (Unixware) I decided to try and translate/port the code to C in Unix. This was in the early to mid 1990's. Of course, over the years many things have changed. Today, Conquest is a true client/server game. The client uses freeglut, SDL 2.0 (for sound) and OpenGL. It uses C++11 to build, though for now it's "C software with some C++ containers and constructs". The curses client is no longer provided. On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:00 PM Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote: > > Not star-trek.... > > I am trying to track down the source of a unix game ..... > > Years and years ago - 1980s - I was in the Computing Science Department > at Strathclyde Uni. and we had a bunch of BSD4 systems running on VAXen. > > I have memory of - but have never located - a curses based 24 x 80 > display - multi-user "space-war" game that allowed you to navigate > around a 3D universe with the 24 x 80 giving you a full screen view of > the universe.. > > In the game you could > > * hunt the universe for aliens (like "shankers" I cant remember the > others), > * other players - you saw them as they saw you > > you could also team up with other players to have more firepower and > call for help using a 1-line on screen chat/broadcast system, > there were planet(s) scattered about - that you could hide behind. > > The students and I modified the program with some "special features". I > cant remember if the name of program was changed too ;-( > > Anyway we knew the game as "search", it was written in C - it was a good > test of serial output capability of the VAXen - it was also a great way > to teach students about the VI keys - since hjkl worked as expected for > movement (at least that was out excuse to the prof when caught playing > the game during the day). > > From my poor description can anybody tie down what I am looking for? > > Appreciated > > Iain > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 17 12:04:57 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 13:04:57 -0400 Subject: looking for a program - last gasp questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <695BA8BF-2B34-4E1D-8158-C10063D3F9F6@comcast.net> > On Oct 17, 2019, at 12:55 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > are you thinking of conquest? > https://github.com/jtrulson/conquest > > conquest > > Conquest is a top-down, real time space warfare game. It was > originally written in RATFOR for the VAX/VMS system in 1983 by Jef > Poskanzer and Craig Leres. I wonder if this is a port of the PLATO game by the same name, which goes back to 1976 or so. PLATO had lots of multi-user games with various levels of graphics sophistication. Space war games included "conquest", "empire", and "spasim" -- that last actually had 3d graphics, which was quite a stretch for 1977. Then there was "airfight" (the inspiration for Microsoft Flight Simulator) as well as a boatload of "dungeon & dragons" games. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 17 13:20:22 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:20:22 -0700 Subject: looking for a program - last gasp questions In-Reply-To: <695BA8BF-2B34-4E1D-8158-C10063D3F9F6@comcast.net> References: <695BA8BF-2B34-4E1D-8158-C10063D3F9F6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9cee210a-d539-f763-40b9-3b438d760e73@sydex.com> Was it in use at Berkeley? I might have it stashed away in some of my BSD-related tapes. --Chuck From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Thu Oct 17 14:35:48 2019 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:35:48 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 61, Issue 16 Message 11 - computer game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C3A0B98-9EF1-49CC-B13A-81169D54E5DC@csp-partnership.co.uk> > > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:55:09 -0400 > From: Bob Smith > To: Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk > Subject: Re: looking for a program - last gasp questions > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > are you thinking of conquest? > https://github.com/jtrulson/conquest > > conquest > > Conquest is a top-down, real time space warfare game. It was > originally written in RATFOR for the VAX/VMS system in 1983 by Jef > Poskanzer and Craig Leres. > > I spent incredible amounts of time playing this game with my friends > in the terminal labs at college, and when I actually had a multi-user > system running at home (Unixware) I decided to try and translate/port > the code to C in Unix. This was in the early to mid 1990's. > > Of course, over the years many things have changed. Today, Conquest is > a true client/server game. The client uses freeglut, SDL 2.0 (for > sound) and OpenGL. It uses C++11 to build, though for now it's "C > software with some C++ containers and constructs?. Fraid not ;-( no grid in search?. You actually scrolled through the universe on your 24 x 80! If you passed a plannet/star then you could see it on screen ( in the distance, or with a screen full of *?s as you hit it!) It had a vast universe and you could scroll around the universe for a hour without seeing the same place. > 4 or 5 of us playing it really cranked up the CPU load. I think many terminals were 9600, if you got your hands on a 19200 or better you were a p*g *n sh*t. On and off I have been hunting for this for 3-4 years. I know I am not making it up - it did come from some US university. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 17 15:51:58 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:51:58 -0400 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away Message-ID: <7C52F12D-4AA4-4CC4-9DBE-C72D4CE4922A@comcast.net> A bit off topic, but I figure a number of us are interested in this older "social media" mechanism. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/ So if you subscribe to any Yahoo groups, or value any of that content, be sure to archive it before your friendly telco sends ALL of it to the bit bucket. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 17 16:20:45 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 14:20:45 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <7C52F12D-4AA4-4CC4-9DBE-C72D4CE4922A@comcast.net> References: <7C52F12D-4AA4-4CC4-9DBE-C72D4CE4922A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <16A0EE2F-158D-46B7-B521-73FE6869BD00@avanthar.com> Thanks for the link! Groups are already jumping ship. The popular destination seems to be groups.io, which has some good features. Zane Sent from my iPod > On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:51 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > A bit off topic, but I figure a number of us are interested in this older "social media" mechanism. > > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/yahoo-is-deleting-all-content-ever-posted-to-yahoo-groups/ > > So if you subscribe to any Yahoo groups, or value any of that content, be sure to archive it before your friendly telco sends ALL of it to the bit bucket. > > paul > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 17 17:32:12 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <7C52F12D-4AA4-4CC4-9DBE-C72D4CE4922A@comcast.net> from Paul Koning via cctalk at "Oct 17, 19 04:51:58 pm" Message-ID: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> > So if you subscribe to any Yahoo groups, or value any of that content, be > sure to archive it before your friendly telco sends ALL of it to the bit > bucket. Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last night. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce ------------------------- From steven at malikoff.com Thu Oct 17 20:08:44 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 11:08:44 +1000 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Cameron said > Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I > guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last > night. What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 17 20:12:12 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:12:12 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> > On Oct 17, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >> So if you subscribe to any Yahoo groups, or value any of that content, be >> sure to archive it before your friendly telco sends ALL of it to the bit >> bucket. > > Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I > guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last > night. The 3D photography group I?m on just moved to groups.io this afternoon. When I went and looked just now, it looks like all the files moved as well. Other groups I?m on had already moved. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 17 20:13:11 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2019, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and > Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's > not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, > curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Yahoo!_Groups has some of the needed information. And, there are some Python scripts for slurping up the messages. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Thu Oct 17 20:14:07 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:14:07 -0400 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> Yes, other groups i belong to that moved have previously said that groups.io has a method of pulling groups over. Pull rather than push seems to be the way to go. Best to attack it from the groups.io end after setting up the new group there. On 17/10/2019 21:12, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 17, 2019, at 3:32 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So if you subscribe to any Yahoo groups, or value any of that content, be >>> sure to archive it before your friendly telco sends ALL of it to the bit >>> bucket. >> Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I >> guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last >> night. > The 3D photography group I?m on just moved to groups.io this afternoon. When I went and looked just now, it looks like all the files moved as well. Other groups I?m on had already moved. > > Zane > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 17 20:22:22 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2019, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Yes, other groups i belong to that moved have previously said that groups.io > has a method of pulling groups over. Pull rather than push seems to be the > way to go. Best to attack it from the groups.io end after setting up the new > group there. The guy who runs groups.io is the one who created onelist, which became e-groups, with got swallowed up by Yahoo!, and then he left. He knows how to do it. People who have switched over seem happy with it. BUT, does he have an appropriate level of resources to handle THAT much traffic? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 17 20:37:56 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:37:56 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/2019 6:08 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Cameron said >> Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I >> guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last >> night. > What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and > Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's > not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, > curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. There is a now obsolete plugin for firefox called "downloadthemall" that sucks the files down.? I saw elsewhere in the thread there may be scripts to scrape messages, will look at that.? Downloadthemall sees the string of crap after the file name, and apparently it comes down with the correct file contents and file name.? I just downloaded it one directory at a time, because DTA doesn't do a recursion in any way. I have an old set of perl code which I used in 2016 to grab several groups in their entirety, and now need to get from there forward. The thing that happened pre-Verizon was they rolled out a mangling of the groups code called "neo" which still remains in the URL. They killed the original code most tools could scrape groups from by turning off all but the neo type site. Grabyahoogroups.pl is the code FWIW that did work.? I'm glad someone found something if it works with the messages. thanks Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 17 20:52:26 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <8e4901090623232374319b4f35c6f053.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> from Steve Malikoff via cctalk at "Oct 18, 19 11:08:44 am" Message-ID: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> > > Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I > > guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last > > night. > > What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and > Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's > not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, > curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. For the messages, I used https://github.com/andrewferguson/YahooGroups-Archiver Unfortunately, the (rather inadequate) Y!G API for files makes it difficult to iterate over files in a directory tree. I ended up manually downloading them, since it was only about 30 files and not worth ginning up something to scrape them. Some people have used https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup to get everything but it needs a MongoDB instance which seemed kind of overkill for a one-time dump. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Political correctness is tyranny with manners. -- Charlton Heston ---------- From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 17 21:49:52 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 19:49:52 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> Message-ID: <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> > > The guy who runs groups.io is the one who created onelist, which became > e-groups, with got swallowed up by Yahoo!, and then he left. > > He knows how to do it. People who have switched over seem happy with > it. > BUT, does he have an appropriate level of resources to handle THAT much > traffic? I saw a posting about this on one of the groups I am in (XXCopy) and it seems as if groups.io is not free. At least there was talk of a $110 payment. -Ali From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Thu Oct 17 21:59:42 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:59:42 -0500 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> Message-ID: <007dbd16-7255-231e-2645-7deb4acc4616@thereinhardts.org> On 10/17/2019 9:49 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> The guy who runs groups.io is the one who created onelist, which became >> e-groups, with got swallowed up by Yahoo!, and then he left. >> >> He knows how to do it. People who have switched over seem happy with >> it. >> BUT, does he have an appropriate level of resources to handle THAT much >> traffic? > > I saw a posting about this on one of the groups I am in (XXCopy) and it > seems as if groups.io is not free. At least there was talk of a $110 > payment. > > -Ali > The groups are free as long as you use less than 1GB of storage.? More storage costs.? Unfortunately, since this past February, you also have to pay in order to have Groups.IO do the moving of your messages, files and photos.? No freebie for that anymore. -- John H. Reinhardt From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 17 22:02:59 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:02:59 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <007dbd16-7255-231e-2645-7deb4acc4616@thereinhardts.org> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> <007dbd16-7255-231e-2645-7deb4acc4616@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <00ae01d58560$8cd98d40$a68ca7c0$@net> > The groups are free as long as you use less than 1GB of storage. More > storage costs. Unfortunately, since this past February, you also have > to pay in order to have Groups.IO do the moving of your messages, files > and photos. No freebie for that anymore. That explains it. BTW: is February when Yahoo first announced the shutdown of Yahoo Groups? Just wondering.... -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 17 22:12:36 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2019, Ali wrote: > I saw a posting about this on one of the groups I am in (XXCopy) and it > seems as if groups.io is not free. At least there was talk of a $110 > payment. Groups.io has a free level. But, if you subscribe to "premium" for one year ($110), then they will do the transfer for you. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 22:44:43 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:44:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) Message-ID: Hi all -- I have an R80 drive in my VAX-11/730 cabinet that I'm trying to get running. Symptoms are: most of the time when the Run/Load switch is depressed, the drive will begin spinning up for 1-2 seconds (sometimes as long as 3-4 seconds) and then stop, faulting with error code 01 ("Spindle Timeout Error"). Every now and again it will spin up and go ready -- the other night it ran for several hours, long enough for me to get a dump of the disk with no read errors (*). I've checked the usual -- the motor and the spindle spin freely and the belt is good and tight. Connectors have been cleaned and reseated, as have socketed ICs. Power supply voltages are OK. The motor start cap tests fine. I'm getting pulses from the optical spindle sensor. I suspected that the brake might have been slowing things down during spin-up as it was a bit noisy (due to some light corrosion), but the spin-up error persists even with it entirely removed. I haven't been able to find the actual service manual for the R80 (or the very closely related RA80 and RM80 drives). Anyone have a copy stashed somewhere? Anyone have any debugging advice? Thanks as always, Josh (*) The drive contained a 4.3BSD system used to run a bbs and uucp relay, "Darkstar 730" out of Beaverton, OR. Looks like it was last run in the early 1990s. Now I just need to track down the owner :). From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 22:59:14 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:59:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:45 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > I haven't been able to find the actual service manual for the R80 (or the > very closely related RA80 and RM80 drives). Anyone have a copy stashed > somewhere? Have you already seen this one? RA80 Disk Drive Service Manual, EP-ORA80-SV-002 https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-RA80-Disk-Drive-Service-Manual-Microfiche/312205107345 Microfiche would be a pain to deal with, but cheap and maybe at least slightly better than nothing. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 23:51:59 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:51:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:59 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:45 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I haven't been able to find the actual service manual for the R80 (or the > > very closely related RA80 and RM80 drives). Anyone have a copy stashed > > somewhere? > > Have you already seen this one? > > RA80 Disk Drive Service Manual, EP-ORA80-SV-002 > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-RA80-Disk-Drive-Service-Manual-Microfiche/312205107345 > > Microfiche would be a pain to deal with, but cheap and maybe at least > slightly better than nothing. > Thanks! I'd completely glossed over eBay even though I'm pretty sure that listing showed up in my google searches. I guess I need to pay closer attention... The price is definitely right -- I'll get that scanned and sent off to Al. If anyone has any experience debugging these, do let me know. (I should also note that there is an R80 service manual on Bitsavers -- I misspoke (mistyped?) in my initial e-mail. It doesn't provide a lot of details on the drive's operation and I was hoping the RA80 or RM80 manuals might be more detailed...) Thanks again, - Josh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 18 00:05:40 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 22:05:40 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <00ae01d58560$8cd98d40$a68ca7c0$@net> References: <201910172232.x9HMWCFU20906214@floodgap.com> <1F7447F7-FA55-48BA-ADD0-1CD452F98F65@avanthar.com> <85d1adf6-12d0-130d-b43f-89cadce3fb83@ieee.org> <00ad01d5855e$b8279700$2876c500$@net> <007dbd16-7255-231e-2645-7deb4acc4616@thereinhardts.org> <00ae01d58560$8cd98d40$a68ca7c0$@net> Message-ID: On 10/17/2019 8:02 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> The groups are free as long as you use less than 1GB of storage. More >> storage costs. Unfortunately, since this past February, you also have >> to pay in order to have Groups.IO do the moving of your messages, files >> and photos. No freebie for that anymore. > That explains it. BTW: is February when Yahoo first announced the shutdown of Yahoo Groups? Just wondering.... > > -Ali In the last couple of days.? It seems to be a bad match to anything Verizon has any use for, and it's a shame they didn't find a way to spin it off.? I suspect there is tons of intertwined infrastructure though to try to cleave it off to a really separate business. Thanks Jim From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Fri Oct 18 14:06:33 2019 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 20:06:33 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 61, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul - I had a quick look at PLATO. I dont think it was like that. In this game when you set a movement direction and velocity you moved through the universe in that direction ?forever?. There was not concept of ?moves? or ?turns?, it was very dynamic. Spasim looks much closer - but was that ?vector graphics?? The game I was using was just 24 x 80 characters. For the year and the WYSE terminals (etc) it was great. > > I wonder if this is a port of the PLATO game by the same name, which goes back to 1976 or so. PLATO had lots of multi-user games with various levels of graphics sophistication. Space war games included "conquest", "empire", and "spasim" -- that last actually had 3d graphics, which was quite a stretch for 1977. Then there was "airfight" (the inspiration for Microsoft Flight Simulator) as well as a boatload of "dungeon & dragons" games. > > paul > ------------------------------ > > Was it in use at Berkeley? I might have it stashed away in some of my > BSD-related tapes. > Chuck, I am Scottish, I have never been to Berkeley! I just cant remember the history. I remember playing the game with a bunch of post-graduates. I was either a post-grad or perhaps an early lecturer in the Uni. That places it square in the mid-80s. I did spend most of my time researching. The games would have appeared on tapes from other places?.. I am hunting around amongst the post-grads to see if any of them can tell me where it came from. I knew the game as ?search? in that that is what you typed in to start it. To keep the undergrads out if it we had to put both passwords and time-locks in the code?. Iain > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 18 14:26:06 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 12:26:06 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 61, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/18/19 12:06 PM, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote: > > Chuck, I am Scottish, I have never been to Berkeley! I just cant remember the history. I remember playing the game with a bunch of post-graduates. > I was either a post-grad or perhaps an early lecturer in the Uni. That places it square in the mid-80s. I did spend most of my time researching. > The games would have appeared on tapes from other places?.. I am hunting around amongst the post-grads to see if any of them can tell me > where it came from. > > I knew the game as ?search? in that that is what you typed in to start it. To keep the undergrads out if it we had to put both passwords and time-locks in > the code?. Well, how about a phrase that you can recall? I can see if it crops up in my archives. --Chuck From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Fri Oct 18 14:36:47 2019 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 12:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language Message-ID: I don't have a PDP-7 to try it out on, but here it is: https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-earliest-unix-code-an-anniversary-source-code-release/ and https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/09/102785108-05-001-acc.pdf Enjoy! ---------------------- Thomas Dzubin Saskatoon, Calgary, or Vancouver CANADA From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 18 15:45:52 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 13:45:52 -0700 Subject: Free to a good home: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation / server (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <56A31F34.8050901@gmail.com> References: <56A31F34.8050901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42b6c42c-0081-b6d4-df58-202c941c54de@bitsavers.org> for anyone who got this from Josh Jim Stephens loaned me a huge stash of documentation that I've been uploading to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/series60level6/ On 1/22/16 10:35 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I picked this DPS-6 up over the summer and it's just taking up space (quite a bit of space) in the corner of my > basement.? This is a custom 16-bit, bitsliced, microcoded CPU from the early 80s with (I believe) 8mb of memory, and > ethernet.? It would originally have run a version of GCOS.? It's about the size of a large-ish minifridge, but a bit > deeper.? It's also quite heavy! > > It's a neat machine, but it's very obscure and unfortunately incomplete (it is missing both mass storage and storage > controllers).? Otherwise, it is complete and in good condition (albeit a bit dirty).? So you can see why you'd really > want to have it in your collection . > > If anyone's up for a project, drop me a line.? Local pick up in Seattle, WA. > > Thanks, > Josh > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 18 15:45:47 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 21:45:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/10/2019 05:51, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > (I should also note that there is an R80 service manual on Bitsavers -- I > misspoke (mistyped?) in my initial e-mail. It doesn't provide a lot of > details on the drive's operation and I was hoping the RA80 or RM80 manuals > might be more detailed...) I'm guessing you mean AA-M186B-TC "RA80 Maintenance Guide", but if not, that's there. (Assuming I've not mis-typed something, I seem to have a later version, AA-M186C-TC, but I've not scanned that). Someone else was looking 10 years ago: https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/gXk9CvKT/looking-for-ra80-service-manual-ek-ora80-sv but seemingly with no luck. I think the FMPS must be on bitsavers but I hit this first: https://usermanual.wiki/Document/MP01286RA80Mar82.3622064137 Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 18 16:25:46 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:25:46 -0400 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neat. I remember seeing a PDP-7 at DECUS as part of a display honoring the early history of Unix. It wasn't running, unfortunately, but it looked like a complete machine. That was in The Hague, in the 1980s. Does this run on SIMH? That has PDP-7 emulation. paul > On Oct 18, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Thomas Dzubin via cctalk wrote: > > I don't have a PDP-7 to try it out on, but here it is: > > https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-earliest-unix-code-an-anniversary-source-code-release/ > > and > > https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/09/102785108-05-001-acc.pdf > > Enjoy! > > ---------------------- > Thomas Dzubin > Saskatoon, Calgary, or Vancouver CANADA > From spedraja at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 16:29:08 2019 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 23:29:08 +0200 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: El vie., 18 oct. 2019 a las 23:26, Paul Koning via cctalk (< cctalk at classiccmp.org>) escribi?: > Neat. I remember seeing a PDP-7 at DECUS as part of a display honoring > the early history of Unix. It wasn't running, unfortunately, but it looked > like a complete machine. That was in The Hague, in the 1980s. > > Does this run on SIMH? That has PDP-7 emulation. > Yeah. For years, in fact. It even runs a reconstructed version of UNIX v1. Regards Sergio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 18 16:41:51 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:41:51 -0600 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2019 1:36 PM, Thomas Dzubin via cctalk wrote: > I don't have a PDP-7 to try it out on, but here it is: > > https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-earliest-unix-code-an-anniversary-source-code-release/ > > > and > > https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/09/102785108-05-001-acc.pdf > > > Enjoy! > > ---------------------- > Thomas Dzubin > Saskatoon, Calgary, or Vancouver? CANADA > What!? No paper tape! I wonder if we are better off today than back then, since any kind of archving seems go into the *cloud* and vanish from the face of the earth,where as back then you made notes and paper printouts of your code that got archived in a back room. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 18 16:56:36 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 14:56:36 -0700 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <967ab878-ab3b-c616-aaa5-022bfef11933@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/19 2:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > any kind of archving seems go into the *cloud* and vanish from > the face of the earth fsck off From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Oct 18 17:03:37 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:03:37 -0700 Subject: Free to a good home: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 workstation / server (Seattle, WA) In-Reply-To: <42b6c42c-0081-b6d4-df58-202c941c54de@bitsavers.org> References: <56A31F34.8050901@gmail.com> <42b6c42c-0081-b6d4-df58-202c941c54de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Oct 18, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > for anyone who got this from Josh > Jim Stephens loaned me a huge stash of documentation that I've been uploading to > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/series60level6/ Any chance you have any DPS-8 or GCOS-8 documentation to upload. I stupidly sent mine North, and now I really regret that. Zane From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 18 18:16:20 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:16:20 -0600 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019, 3:29 PM SPC via cctalk wrote: > El vie., 18 oct. 2019 a las 23:26, Paul Koning via cctalk (< > cctalk at classiccmp.org>) escribi?: > > > Neat. I remember seeing a PDP-7 at DECUS as part of a display honoring > > the early history of Unix. It wasn't running, unfortunately, but it > looked > > like a complete machine. That was in The Hague, in the 1980s. > > > > Does this run on SIMH? That has PDP-7 emulation. > > > > Yeah. For years, in fact. It even runs a reconstructed version of UNIX v1. > The pdp7 code was reconstructed from 1/2 of the sources. Volume 2 was just found and work is underway to transcribe and debug it. Warner Regards > Sergio > From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Oct 18 20:01:35 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 01:01:35 +0000 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <967ab878-ab3b-c616-aaa5-022bfef11933@bitsavers.org> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <967ab878-ab3b-c616-aaa5-022bfef11933@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191019010134.GA485@lonesome.com> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 02:56:36PM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > fsck off While we appreciate your efforts, you're only one guy, and I think you would have to agree that bits are vanishing faster than any one person can keep up. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Oct 18 20:03:54 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 01:03:54 +0000 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 03:41:51PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > where as back then you made notes and paper printouts of your code > that got archived in a back room. Until the University decided to throw it all out to use the space for their new Department of Basket Weaving. fwiw, at one time I had a large set of G-15 paper tapes (including the diagnostics). Got left behind in a move because I was tired. mcl From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 18 20:08:51 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 21:08:51 -0400 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> > On Oct 18, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 03:41:51PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >> where as back then you made notes and paper printouts of your code >> that got archived in a back room. > > Until the University decided to throw it all out to use the space > for their new Department of Basket Weaving. Reported that sort of thing is just what happened with the hand-written complete source code of the world's first ALGOL compiler -- the notebook was tossed during an office move or the like because no one present realized what it was. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 19 06:14:19 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:14:19 +0100 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-10-19 2:08 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 18, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 03:41:51PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> where as back then you made notes and paper printouts of your code >>> that got archived in a back room. >> >> Until the University decided to throw it all out to use the space >> for their new Department of Basket Weaving. > > Reported that sort of thing is just what happened with the hand-written complete source code of the world's first ALGOL compiler -- the notebook was tossed during an office move or the like because no one present realized what it was. > > paul > > This is why I love hearing, so often, on these lists, "I have that stored in the basement somewhere". --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 19 10:25:22 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 08:25:22 -0700 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <2419d4f3-e4ee-102c-2bf2-3b95a627946a@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/19 4:14 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > This is why I love hearing, so often, on these lists, "I have that > stored in the basement somewhere". The rest of the story: - basement floods - paper turns into a mushroom farm -- THE END From cruff at ruffspot.net Fri Oct 18 19:42:13 2019 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:42:13 -0600 Subject: looking for a program - last gasp questions (Dr Iain Maoileoin) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps http://www.asciisector.net/ ? From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Oct 18 22:01:51 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 20:01:51 -0700 Subject: Fwd: For auction: Amiga 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is an Amiga 3000 in excellent condition, both functionally and physically. Other than the very slight yellowing of the front face and one barely visible scrape, it is almost perfect. It is extremely clean inside as well. The on-board battery has not yet been removed but it should be soon as it has begun to outgas and affect the surrounding components. I cleaned up the minimal oxidation it had caused on some of the various components local to it. The capacitors have no visible age-related issues. The system boots up into Amiga WorkBench 3.1 and has numerous applications and drivers installed. Video output is from the GVP EGS (works with SVGA monitor) board, which plugs into the on-board video port (via external connector cable). Photos: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmxBoNtw (Despite the marring of the back label, the serial number is readable: CA1013685.) Configuration: 16Mhz on-board CPU with Commodore A3640 68040 @ 25 MHz accelerator 2MB Chip RAM 16MB Fast RAM Great Valley Products L.C. EGS (Rev. 3) 28/24 Spectrum RTG graphics board w/2MB for 1600?1280?8 interlace, 1152?864?16 interlace, and 800?600?24 non-interlace video modes Utilities Unlimited Emplant Macintosh emulator board with Macintosh II ROMs (Apple 342-0105-B, 342-0106-B, 342-0107-B, 342-0108-B) Conner CFA170S 170MB IDE hard drive Quantum LPS525S 525MB SCSI2 hard drive 3.5" floppy drive So many people expressed an interest in this machine that I decided to sell it by private sealed bid auction. Between now and Monday, October 21, 8:00PM Pacific Daylight Time, if interested, please submit your bid to me by e-mail with your bid. I will confirm your bid by e-mail and notify you if you are the highest bidder, or otherwise of the final selling price. There is a reserve price of $800. If you are unfamiliar with a sealed-bid auction, you submit your bid private to me via e-mail. Your bid is the highest price you are willing to pay. Whomever has the highest bid by the deadline wins the auction. I will announce the final sale price to all bidders. The winning bidder has 24 hours to submit payment unless specific arrangements are made otherwise. Winning bidder pays for shipping via FedEx Ground, shipping from Sacramento, California. I will ship globally. Local pickup is welcome. Payment by PayPal using direct funds transfer is required. Other payment arrangements may be negotiated. My payment policies are explained in full in my FAQ, located here: https://tinyurl.com/VWoCW-FAQ Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, and good luck to all prospective bidders. Sellam From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 19 11:05:32 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 09:05:32 -0700 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <2419d4f3-e4ee-102c-2bf2-3b95a627946a@bitsavers.org> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> <2419d4f3-e4ee-102c-2bf2-3b95a627946a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1b91b6cd-2393-946a-ebdd-5bc52a7a8919@sydex.com> On 10/19/19 8:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/19/19 4:14 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> This is why I love hearing, so often, on these lists, "I have that >> stored in the basement somewhere". > > The rest of the story: > > - basement floods > - paper turns into a mushroom farm > > -- THE END Too bad that nobody thought to archive it on tape--I've recovered data from mold-encrusted tapes quite successfully. Crickets and mice are murder on paper as well, not to mention that ordinary paper tends to self-destruct over time because of the acid content. --Chuck From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Oct 19 11:07:31 2019 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:07:31 -0500 Subject: Fwd: For auction: Amiga 3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DAB34C3.7020704@charter.net> Sellam, I am an Amiga expert. If you don't remove the battery asap you are going to lose this system. I am amazed that it still works but that isn't going to last much longer. You stated that there was some corrosion that you cleaned up so it may already too late to save the motherboard. The acid from the battery will migrate along the copper traces and there is no way to stop it nor repair it. I would never buy this system. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/18/2019 10:01 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > This is an Amiga 3000 in excellent condition, both functionally and > physically. Other than the very slight yellowing of the front face and one > barely visible scrape, it is almost perfect. > > It is extremely clean inside as well. The on-board battery has not yet been > removed but it should be soon as it has begun to outgas and affect the > surrounding components. I cleaned up the minimal oxidation it had caused on > some of the various components local to it. The capacitors have no visible > age-related issues. > > The system boots up into Amiga WorkBench 3.1 and has numerous applications > and drivers installed. Video output is from the GVP EGS (works with SVGA > monitor) board, which plugs into the on-board video port (via external > connector cable). > > Photos: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmxBoNtw > > (Despite the marring of the back label, the serial number is readable: > CA1013685.) > > Configuration: > > 16Mhz on-board CPU with Commodore A3640 68040 @ 25 MHz accelerator > 2MB Chip RAM > 16MB Fast RAM > Great Valley Products L.C. EGS (Rev. 3) 28/24 Spectrum RTG graphics board > w/2MB for 1600?1280?8 interlace, 1152?864?16 interlace, and 800?600?24 > non-interlace video modes > Utilities Unlimited Emplant Macintosh emulator board with Macintosh II ROMs > (Apple 342-0105-B, 342-0106-B, 342-0107-B, 342-0108-B) > Conner CFA170S 170MB IDE hard drive > Quantum LPS525S 525MB SCSI2 hard drive > 3.5" floppy drive > > So many people expressed an interest in this machine that I decided to sell > it by private sealed bid auction. > > Between now and Monday, October 21, 8:00PM Pacific Daylight Time, if > interested, please submit your bid to me by e-mail with your bid. I will > confirm your bid by e-mail and notify you if you are the highest bidder, or > otherwise of the final selling price. There is a reserve price of $800. > > If you are unfamiliar with a sealed-bid auction, you submit your bid > private to me via e-mail. Your bid is the highest price you are willing to > pay. Whomever has the highest bid by the deadline wins the auction. I will > announce the final sale price to all bidders. The winning bidder has 24 > hours to submit payment unless specific arrangements are made otherwise. > Winning bidder pays for shipping via FedEx Ground, shipping from > Sacramento, California. I will ship globally. Local pickup is welcome. > Payment by PayPal using direct funds transfer is required. Other payment > arrangements may be negotiated. My payment policies are explained in full > in my FAQ, located here: > > https://tinyurl.com/VWoCW-FAQ > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, and good luck to all prospective bidders. > > Sellam > From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Oct 19 11:32:41 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 10:32:41 -0600 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: <1b91b6cd-2393-946a-ebdd-5bc52a7a8919@sydex.com> References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> <2419d4f3-e4ee-102c-2bf2-3b95a627946a@bitsavers.org> <1b91b6cd-2393-946a-ebdd-5bc52a7a8919@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 19, 2019, 10:05 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/19 8:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 10/19/19 4:14 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > > >> This is why I love hearing, so often, on these lists, "I have that > >> stored in the basement somewhere". > > > > The rest of the story: > > > > - basement floods > > - paper turns into a mushroom farm > > > > -- THE END > > Too bad that nobody thought to archive it on tape--I've recovered data > from mold-encrusted tapes quite successfully. > Speaking of tapes... CHM has Dennis Richie's stuff. There was a CB UNIX tape that was sent to him years ago... I wonder if that made it into the CHM collection... Warner > From ethan at 757.org Sat Oct 19 12:18:19 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: For auction: Amiga 3000 In-Reply-To: <5DAB34C3.7020704@charter.net> References: <5DAB34C3.7020704@charter.net> Message-ID: > Sellam, > I am an Amiga expert. If you don't remove the battery asap you are going > to lose this system. I am amazed that it still works but that isn't going to > last much longer. You stated that there was some corrosion that you cleaned > up so it may already too late to save the motherboard. The acid from the > battery will migrate along the copper traces and there is no way to stop it > nor repair it. I would never buy this system. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Eh, looking at the pictures the battery damage is very little. It is a decent candidate for saving. Action needs to be taken quickly but it's in way better condition than ones I've attempted to work on. I do see some flaking north in the copper traces of the battery. I still wonder if osmeone will reproduce Amiga 3000 motherboards where you can either move over the customs but also has some modern add ons. As well as a replacement board for the Amiga 600 :-) At $800 though... not AGA. -- : Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 19 12:45:05 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 10:45:05 -0700 Subject: Unix v2 in PDP-7 assembly language In-Reply-To: References: <26352e4b-df78-ff5e-e446-61066b89c3f9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20191019010354.GB485@lonesome.com> <5A71694A-8F78-421B-8BCD-33071085D753@comcast.net> <1926ad1f-fffc-cef2-493f-67e6a3ce0be3@telegraphics.com.au> <2419d4f3-e4ee-102c-2bf2-3b95a627946a@bitsavers.org> <1b91b6cd-2393-946a-ebdd-5bc52a7a8919@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56fbf52f-24a3-435b-1b20-3f94942b0e10@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/19 9:32 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > CHM has Dennis Richie's stuff. There was a CB UNIX tape that was sent to > him years ago... I wonder if that made it into the CHM collection... > > Warner I don't think any media came back when Dave Brock visited the family and went through Dennis' things. From jon at jonworld.com Sat Oct 19 13:02:40 2019 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 19:02:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? Message-ID: Hi! I saw this crop up on twitter and now I?m curious. Anyone familiar with these? Any idea what the backend was? https://twitter.com/newsfedora/status/1154813199054712833?s=21 -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Oct 19 13:23:46 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:23:46 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. There were various field trials of such systems around that era.? We had one in Toronto's Eaton Centre - it was based on NAPLPS, and used a PDP11/23.? There was a lot of Canadian Government money put into research to promote he Canadian vector-based protocol, claimed to be more efficient than the European alpha-mosaic ones.? Ours ran at 1200/150(?) baud. Research was done at a Bell Canada site on Carlingview Avenue in Ottawa under some sort of sub-contract.?? They used Able DMAXes on an 11/70 which had a pot to adjust the 150 baud clock.? They actually flew me up from Toronto, with a scope, to adjust that pot, since everybody there was hands-off this external stuff. It may have had a future if HTTP and the internet were not just around the corner:-) One of the big players in Canada was Infomart, where I installed a bunch of kit on PDP11s, just around the corner from where I now live in Toronto. cheers, Nigel On 19/10/2019 14:02, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Hi! > > I saw this crop up on twitter and now I?m curious. Anyone familiar with > these? Any idea what the backend was? > > https://twitter.com/newsfedora/status/1154813199054712833?s=21 > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 19 13:35:49 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:35:49 -0600 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90f67042-ecaa-5c75-d9a4-0460a69fba29@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/19/2019 12:23 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. There were > various field trials of such systems around that era.? We had one in > Toronto's Eaton Centre - it was based on NAPLPS, and used a PDP11/23. > There was a lot of Canadian Government money put into research to > promote he Canadian vector-based protocol, claimed to be more efficient > than the European alpha-mosaic ones.? Ours ran at 1200/150(?) baud. > > Research was done at a Bell Canada site on Carlingview Avenue in Ottawa > under some sort of sub-contract.?? They used Able DMAXes on an 11/70 > which had a pot to adjust the 150 baud clock.? They actually flew me up > from Toronto, with a scope, to adjust that pot, since everybody there > was hands-off this external stuff. > > It may have had a future if HTTP and the internet were not just around > the corner:-) Well I think Hook up up to your TV and slower than hell cheap decoders killed the NAPLPS rather than the internet is comming. Ben. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Oct 19 13:46:07 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:46:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <90f67042-ecaa-5c75-d9a4-0460a69fba29@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <90f67042-ecaa-5c75-d9a4-0460a69fba29@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <53b9f1c8-6544-12c5-6e52-707572c42284@ieee.org> Are you sure it wasn't the massive over-funding by government that killed it? On 19/10/2019 14:35, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/2019 12:23 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. There were >> various field trials of such systems around that era.? We had one in >> Toronto's Eaton Centre - it was based on NAPLPS, and used a PDP11/23. >> There was a lot of Canadian Government money put into research to >> promote he Canadian vector-based protocol, claimed to be more >> efficient than the European alpha-mosaic ones.? Ours ran at >> 1200/150(?) baud. >> >> Research was done at a Bell Canada site on Carlingview Avenue in >> Ottawa under some sort of sub-contract.?? They used Able DMAXes on an >> 11/70 which had a pot to adjust the 150 baud clock.? They actually >> flew me up from Toronto, with a scope, to adjust that pot, since >> everybody there was hands-off this external stuff. >> >> It may have had a future if HTTP and the internet were not just >> around the corner:-) > > Well I think Hook up up to your TV and slower than? hell cheap decoders > killed the NAPLPS rather than the internet is comming. > Ben. > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 15:07:35 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:07:35 -0700 Subject: Fwd: For auction: Amiga 3000 In-Reply-To: References: <5DAB34C3.7020704@charter.net> Message-ID: Hey guys. Thanks for the tip. I opened it yet again and inspected further under a loupe and sure enough I noticed damage I'd not seen before. I removed the battery and cleaned up around it some more and mitigated the damage. The acid seems to have only migrated a few millimeters towards the adjacent 7400 series chips and only slightly affected the ground plane. Here's a photo: https://flic.kr/p/2hxjBv3 I ran this system for hours last night and it never hiccupped. I don't know what "AGA" means. There have been a couple sales on eBay recently for stock systems without the upgrades this has that both sold for $800. I sold a stock 25Mhz system earlier this year for $500. Again, thanks for pointing out the problem with the battery. Sellam On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 10:18 AM Ethan O'Toole wrote: > > Sellam, > > I am an Amiga expert. If you don't remove the battery asap you are > going > > to lose this system. I am amazed that it still works but that isn't > going to > > last much longer. You stated that there was some corrosion that you > cleaned > > up so it may already too late to save the motherboard. The acid from the > > battery will migrate along the copper traces and there is no way to stop > it > > nor repair it. I would never buy this system. > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > Eh, looking at the pictures the battery damage is very little. It is a > decent candidate for saving. Action needs to be taken quickly but it's in > way better condition than ones I've attempted to work on. > > I do see some flaking north in the copper traces of the battery. > > I still wonder if osmeone will reproduce Amiga 3000 motherboards where you > can either move over the customs but also has some modern add ons. > > As well as a replacement board for the Amiga 600 :-) > > At $800 though... not AGA. > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 15:28:36 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:28:36 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation Message-ID: Does anyone know whatever happened to John Keys and his collection? https://www.guidestar.org/profile/43-1950958 The mission of the Houston Computer Museum is to collect and preserve historic computers, technology, and related materials; and to use these collections for exhibitions, educational programs, historical research, and related activities for the benefit of the public. Principal Officer Mr. John Keys Main Address 9410 Harwin Ste E Houston, TX 77036 I suspect that something may have happened to John, and this may have been his collection. Sellam From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Oct 20 05:43:10 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:43:10 +0200 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 character generator chip. The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 09:35:42 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:35:42 +0000 Subject: plated wire memory Message-ID: I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 09:38:39 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:38:39 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7bdc9b92-6bd4-132f-4222-40d0e8095f49@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/19 1:28 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > I suspect that something may have happened to John, and this may have been > his collection. It is. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71708-Vintage-Computer-Warehouse-Liquidation&p=590154 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 09:43:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:43:34 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> search for NDRO and thin film memory Univac used it in their commercial and military computers On 10/20/19 7:35 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. > Dwight > > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Oct 20 09:45:27 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:45:27 -0400 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember an IBM engineer talking about this at our ham radio club. The wire was coiled inside a drum and pulses were sent down the wire.? The 'read head' was? a magnetic pickup at the other end of the coil - and access time was however long it took the pulse to arrive at the other end.? Therefore storage capacity was inversely proportional to data quantity, however at that time I was working with 660kB Univac FH330 drums for swapping and the 2-ton Fastrand for 164kB of long-term storage, so it has to be taken in context! Although the read was actually non-destructive, the pulse had to be regenerated to go around agaiun. Is that maybe what you are thinking of? cheers, Nigel On 20/10/2019 10:35, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. > Dwight > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From db at db.net Sun Oct 20 09:58:16 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191020145816.GB79659@night.db.net> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 10:45:27AM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember an IBM engineer talking about this at our ham radio club. The de VA3DB > wire was coiled inside a drum and pulses were sent down the wire.? The > 'read head' was? a magnetic pickup at the other end of the coil - and This sounds like delay line memory. Lot's of info on this on web. > access time was however long it took the pulse to arrive at the other > end.? Therefore storage capacity was inversely proportional to data > quantity, however at that time I was working with 660kB Univac FH330 > drums for swapping and the 2-ton Fastrand for 164kB of long-term > storage, so it has to be taken in context! > > Although the read was actually non-destructive, the pulse had to be > regenerated to go around agaiun. > > Is that maybe what you are thinking of? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > On 20/10/2019 10:35, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. > > Dwight > > > > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 09:59:25 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:59:25 -0500 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 09:45 Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember an IBM engineer talking about this at our ham radio club. The > wire was coiled inside a drum and pulses were sent down the wire. The > 'read head' was a magnetic pickup at the other end of the coil - and > access time was however long it took the pulse to arrive at the other > end. > You are describing delay line memory. Plated wire memory is more akin to core memory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plated_wire_memory Kyle > From db at db.net Sun Oct 20 10:00:26 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:00:26 -0400 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191020150026.GC79659@night.db.net> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 07:43:34AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > search for NDRO and thin film memory > Univac used it in their commercial and military computers > > On 10/20/19 7:35 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. > > Dwight > > Nice article here: http://www.technikum29.de/en/devices/plated-wire-storage Never saw it myself only saw core. I don't think DEC ever used plated wire. > > - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 10:28:52 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:28:52 +0100 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know much about plated wire store, but I do know it was used in the Manchester University MU5 computer which pioneered heuristic pipelining. There is some info here:- http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/cgi/rni/comp-arch.pl?Ibuff/mu5-ibu.html,Ibuff/ mu5-ibu-f.html,Ibuff/menu-mu5.html https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YD5dDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=%22mu5% 22+plated+wire+store&source=bl&ots=4vqufyFe81&sig=ACfU3U07-MqiT-58mc16Yjs7C1 eFm_m4UA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVhdb5kavlAhW5TxUIHbJ9Cz4Q6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=on epage&q=%22mu5%22%20plated%20wire%20store&f=true Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk > Sent: 20 October 2019 15:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: plated wire memory > > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting > type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of > information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I > just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. > Dwight > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 10:36:29 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 08:36:29 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19740018598 from their web page, "SCI" built the Voyager memory, I've not found details in the on-line docs https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19810001583 On 10/20/19 7:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > search for NDRO and thin film memory > Univac used it in their commercial and military computers > > On 10/20/19 7:35 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory. >> Dwight >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 20 10:46:36 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 08:46:36 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/20/19 7:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > search for NDRO and thin film memory > Univac used it in their commercial and military computers > Apparently not for long. The 1107 was a thin-film memory machine, but the 1108 et seq. was not, IIRC. At least I don't recall any mention in the documentation, whereas it was a big thing with the 1107. My guess is that it was difficult to produce and expensive. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 10:57:32 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 08:57:32 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> https://vipclubmn.org/Articles/PlatedWire.pdf https://vipclubmn.org/Articles/PlatedWireAddendum.pdf and https://vipclubmn.org/Articles/Wired_Up.pdf The 9300 used it, Donzelli says it wasn't very reliable http://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/sperryrand.univac9000.1967.102646204.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 11:04:09 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:04:09 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <53a67303-470b-2766-dac4-7d22c05a3204@bitsavers.org> and NCR rod memory https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/60db/392e7b39d0b1697ead9deb033a4ae488dbe7.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 20 11:05:59 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:05:59 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <53a67303-470b-2766-dac4-7d22c05a3204@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> <53a67303-470b-2766-dac4-7d22c05a3204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6d67944b-93fe-33ee-7b48-97242ec87275@bitsavers.org> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102620884 On 10/20/19 9:04 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > and NCR rod memory > https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/60db/392e7b39d0b1697ead9deb033a4ae488dbe7.pdf > > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Oct 20 11:14:53 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:14:53 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in Canada.? People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was better than yours? cheers, Nigel On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] > It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side > of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with > graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular > appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 > character generator chip. > > The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 20 11:27:58 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:27:58 +0100 Subject: Pro 350 Print Set Message-ID: <007801d58763$5623da80$026b8f80$@ntlworld.com> Manx lists MP-01394-00 as the Field Maintenance Print Set for the DEC Professional 350. I can't find this online and I was wondering if anyone has a scan of it by any chance? Thanks Rob From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Oct 20 11:34:43 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:34:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <942861505.15081.1571589283944@email.ionos.com> > On October 20, 2019 at 9:35 AM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I was just listening to a video on the Voyager space craft. It used an interesting type of memory, called magnetic wire memory. There is only a little bit of information of it on the web. It is clever in that has a non-destructive read. I just wondered if any one else was familiar with this type of memory.Dwight There is some interesting information, but not a lot of technical details, in the Computers in Spaceflight book from NASA https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19880069935 Will "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From db at db.net Sun Oct 20 11:51:31 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:51:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20191020165131.GA80880@night.db.net> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 12:14:53PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in > Canada.? People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! More widely known as Telidon despite it being called NAPLPS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telidon Friend of mine worked at one of the commercial companies (NORPAK) doing it. Incidentally, they used a lot of 6809 systems running OS-9. > > It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was > better than yours? > > cheers, > > Nigel > > > On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > >> Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] > > It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side > > of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with > > graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular > > appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 > > character generator chip. > > > > The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. > > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Oct 20 12:22:50 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:22:50 -0500 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DAC97EA.7020603@pico-systems.com> On 10/20/2019 09:45 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember an IBM engineer talking about this at our ham > radio club. The wire was coiled inside a drum and pulses > were sent down the wire. The 'read head' was a magnetic > pickup at the other end of the coil - and access time was > however long it took the pulse to arrive at the other > end. Therefore storage capacity was inversely > proportional to data quantity, however at that time I was > working with 660kB Univac FH330 drums for swapping and the > 2-ton Fastrand for 164kB of long-term storage, so it has > to be taken in context! > No, that is acoustic delay line memory, and is a serial access type of data storage All data is lost if the equipment is powered down. Plated wire memory is a random-access type of memory using principles similar to core memory, except the magnetic material is a magnetic film plated onto the copper wires. There are a few other forms of NDRO such as Biax that use cores with two holes in them, one for the sense/inhibit wire and one for the select wires. Jon From david at kdbarto.org Sun Oct 20 13:39:50 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:39:50 -0700 Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them Message-ID: A collection just came to me. These are the original disks, with whatever labels are on them. As a set. First come first served. If you are in San Diego I?ll arrange a swap with you locally. If remote, we can arrange shipping. 1.44MB unless otherwise noted. Copyright years noted so version number might be determined along with what version of Mac it might support. GRAVIS Mac Blackhawk Version 1.0 (2 disk) ClarisWorks 4.0 (6 disks) ClarisWorks Small Business Solutions Pack. Correct Grammar For Mac Version 3.0 (2 disks) APS PowerTools V 1.3.1 Mac ally Port Xpander Driver Program (copyright 1995-1997) Welltris, Spectrum Holobyte (800K disks, S/N 013045, 2 disks) MicroSoft Excel Version 4.0. (800K disks, 7 Disks, copyright 85-92) MicroSoft PowerPoint (800K disks, 4 disks, copyright 87-89) MicroSoft Mail Version 2.0 (800k?, Copyright 85-89) Conflict Catcher 3 (800K 1 disk) dantz Retrospect (2 disks, copyright 97) Suitcase II, (400K disk, S/N 4200-0103685 Copyright 86) Hayden Books - The Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh Disk. Contains: Eudora 1.4 Fetch 2.1.1 InterSLIP 1.0 MacTCP 2.2 Stuffit Expander 3.03 TurboGopher 1.07 Nova Development - American Handbook of Business Letters (800k?, Copyright 90) Aladdin Stuffit Lite (800k?, Copyright 87-92) Aladdin Spring Cleaning (Copyright 96) Connectix Ram Doubler (800k?, 1.5.1 hand written on disk, copyright 94) CTSNET Macintosh Internet Signup Since my Father in law as Mac Only, I had no idea where these came from Windows Syquest SCSI installation Diskette 1, copyright 94 Windows 95 Syquest Installation diskette 2 DOS/Windows & OS/2 SCSI installation diskette 3 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Oct 20 14:09:50 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:09:50 -0700 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> Message-ID: <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> On 2019-Oct-20, at 9:14 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >>> Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] >> It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side >> of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with >> graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular >> appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 >> character generator chip. >> >> The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. > It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in Canada. People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! > > It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was better than yours? For elucidation, here's an example of a Canadian Telidon terminal with display examples: http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html (The processor is indeed a 6809, as Diane was mentioning.) Graphics was very much a part of the Telidon/NAPLPS protocol. (Note: Colour capabilities may differ between terminals, the protocol was such as to permit a range of compatible implementations.) While the store directory terminal of the OP 'could' have been a Telidon/NAPLPS terminal, I'd be placing my bets more on the Apple-II (or similar) as others mentioned. Strikes me more as a standalone unit. I think using a videotex/teletext/Telidon/NAPLPS terminal would have been awkward and the economics poor, there'd either have to be a rented comm line to a remote server, an additional local server, or storage hacked onto the terminal. The touch-screen is another issue, while it could have been supported in a proprietary manner I'm not aware of explicit support for touch-screens in the protocol. I believe the NAPLPS designation (designation as an industry standard) came rather late in the game, an attempt to gain some recognition for a dying project. As "Telidon", it had begun years earlier. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Oct 20 14:47:06 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 15:47:06 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4eac1c8c-9972-4e6e-a8bf-a6f925a475fc@ieee.org> You are probably right about the 6809, the stuff I worked on was all in the development stages for the project, and at the server end.? I did field engineering for Transduction, and we supplied equipment to Norpak, although I can't for the life of me remember what!? I remember going to visit their headquarters in Pakenham and was surprised to find it was a set of farm outbuildings!? That was the NORton family of PAKenham, whence they got the name. The development system from Carling Drive in Ottawa was transferred to Bell's Simcoe Street office in Toronto when they went live, and I got a service call there to work on the DMAX/16s again, as somebody ad removed the remote diagnostics panel from the PDP11/70? and forgot to replace the NPG jumper on the backplane, causing bus hangs. cheers, Nigel (for people who knew me back then, I was called 'Bill' Johnson!) On 20/10/2019 15:09, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-Oct-20, at 9:14 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] >>> It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the >>> other side >>> of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the >>> name) with >>> graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a >>> particular >>> appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 >>> character generator chip. >>> >>> The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. >> It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in >> Canada. People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! >> >> It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was >> better than yours? > > For elucidation, here's an example of a Canadian Telidon terminal with > display examples: > http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html > > (The processor is indeed a 6809, as Diane was mentioning.) > > Graphics was very much a part of the Telidon/NAPLPS protocol. > (Note: Colour capabilities may differ between terminals, the protocol > was such as to permit a range of compatible implementations.) > > While the store directory terminal of the OP 'could' have been a > Telidon/NAPLPS terminal, I'd be placing my bets more on the Apple-II > (or similar) as others mentioned. Strikes me more as a standalone > unit. I think using a videotex/teletext/Telidon/NAPLPS terminal would > have been awkward and the economics poor, there'd either have to be a > rented comm line to a remote server, an additional local server, or > storage hacked onto the terminal. > > The touch-screen is another issue, while it could have been supported > in a proprietary manner I'm not aware of explicit support for > touch-screens in the protocol. > > I believe the NAPLPS designation (designation as an industry standard) > came rather late in the game, an attempt to gain some recognition for > a dying project. As "Telidon", it had begun years earlier. > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 14:20:51 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 19:20:51 +0000 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org>, <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: As an FYI, the YouTube comments description of the system is: "Published on Oct 19, 2019 10/9/1985: Farm Fresh grocery stores unveil new cutting-edge technology: store kiosks that help shoppers map out where to find items in their stores. The kiosks appear to be running Apple II software." Sent from my iPhone On Oct 20, 2019, at 12:10, Brent Hilpert via cctalk > wrote: On 2019-Oct-20, at 9:14 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 character generator chip. The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in Canada. People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was better than yours? For elucidation, here's an example of a Canadian Telidon terminal with display examples: http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html (The processor is indeed a 6809, as Diane was mentioning.) Graphics was very much a part of the Telidon/NAPLPS protocol. (Note: Colour capabilities may differ between terminals, the protocol was such as to permit a range of compatible implementations.) While the store directory terminal of the OP 'could' have been a Telidon/NAPLPS terminal, I'd be placing my bets more on the Apple-II (or similar) as others mentioned. Strikes me more as a standalone unit. I think using a videotex/teletext/Telidon/NAPLPS terminal would have been awkward and the economics poor, there'd either have to be a rented comm line to a remote server, an additional local server, or storage hacked onto the terminal. The touch-screen is another issue, while it could have been supported in a proprietary manner I'm not aware of explicit support for touch-screens in the protocol. I believe the NAPLPS designation (designation as an industry standard) came rather late in the game, an attempt to gain some recognition for a dying project. As "Telidon", it had begun years earlier. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Oct 20 15:13:00 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:13:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <91689dfa-bf19-0812-9c6c-52dda59a2133@ieee.org> You are absolutely right about the economics! The only one I ever saw in operation was in the Eaton Centre in Toronto, just around the corner from the Bell Simcoe office where I worked on the server! cheers, Nigel On 20/10/2019 15:20, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > As an FYI, the YouTube comments description of the system is: > "Published on Oct 19, 2019 > 10/9/1985: Farm Fresh grocery stores unveil new cutting-edge technology: store kiosks that help shoppers map out where to find items in their stores. The kiosks appear to be running Apple II software." > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 20, 2019, at 12:10, Brent Hilpert via cctalk > wrote: > > On 2019-Oct-20, at 9:14 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > On 20/10/2019 06:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 02:23:46PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Judging by the year, it was probably a teletext terminal. [...] > It's not Teletext, unless that word means something different on the other side > of the Pond. Teletext was basically a text system (the hint's in the name) with > graphics (and indeed colour) being a weird hack that gave it a particular > appearance, especially in typical implementations which used the SAA5050 > character generator chip. > > The palette and colour fringing suggest Apple II to me. > > It was called teletext despite the implications, at least here in Canada. People just couldn't get their tongue around NAPLPS! > > It looks just like the teletext systems I worked on, maybe ours was better than yours? > > > For elucidation, here's an example of a Canadian Telidon terminal with display examples: > http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html > > (The processor is indeed a 6809, as Diane was mentioning.) > > Graphics was very much a part of the Telidon/NAPLPS protocol. > (Note: Colour capabilities may differ between terminals, the protocol was such as to permit a range of compatible implementations.) > > While the store directory terminal of the OP 'could' have been a Telidon/NAPLPS terminal, I'd be placing my bets more on the Apple-II (or similar) as others mentioned. Strikes me more as a standalone unit. I think using a videotex/teletext/Telidon/NAPLPS terminal would have been awkward and the economics poor, there'd either have to be a rented comm line to a remote server, an additional local server, or storage hacked onto the terminal. > > The touch-screen is another issue, while it could have been supported in a proprietary manner I'm not aware of explicit support for touch-screens in the protocol. > > I believe the NAPLPS designation (designation as an industry standard) came rather late in the game, an attempt to gain some recognition for a dying project. As "Telidon", it had begun years earlier. > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 15:50:44 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 20:50:44 +0000 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <5DAC97EA.7020603@pico-systems.com> References: , <5DAC97EA.7020603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: It is funny that the most common memory used today is a DRO type memory. The read destroys much of the charge on a DRAM cell, requiring a write back of the data. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2019 10:22 AM To: Nigel Johnson ; General at ezwind.net ; Discussion@ Subject: Re: plated wire memory On 10/20/2019 09:45 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I remember an IBM engineer talking about this at our ham > radio club. The wire was coiled inside a drum and pulses > were sent down the wire. The 'read head' was a magnetic > pickup at the other end of the coil - and access time was > however long it took the pulse to arrive at the other > end. Therefore storage capacity was inversely > proportional to data quantity, however at that time I was > working with 660kB Univac FH330 drums for swapping and the > 2-ton Fastrand for 164kB of long-term storage, so it has > to be taken in context! > No, that is acoustic delay line memory, and is a serial access type of data storage All data is lost if the equipment is powered down. Plated wire memory is a random-access type of memory using principles similar to core memory, except the magnetic material is a magnetic film plated onto the copper wires. There are a few other forms of NDRO such as Biax that use cores with two holes in them, one for the sense/inhibit wire and one for the select wires. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 20 16:23:10 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:23:10 -0700 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: <5DAC97EA.7020603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3771f75d-f433-191c-34c1-596778481769@sydex.com> On 10/20/19 1:50 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It is funny that the most common memory used today is a DRO type memory. The read destroys much of the charge on a DRAM cell, requiring a write back of the data. > Dwight That's true today, but probably not in the near future. Persistent memory is getting faster and cheaper. --Chuck From db at db.net Sun Oct 20 16:36:45 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:36:45 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <4eac1c8c-9972-4e6e-a8bf-a6f925a475fc@ieee.org> References: <20191020104310.GA14067@mooli.org.uk> <44b6010d-9a1b-131e-2879-8d59eaba037e@ieee.org> <6180A61C-94BA-4AEC-95CD-C408B2F1125B@shaw.ca> <4eac1c8c-9972-4e6e-a8bf-a6f925a475fc@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20191020213645.GB83860@night.db.net> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 03:47:06PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > You are probably right about the 6809, the stuff I worked on was all in I knew one of the developers who was working on the 6809's. OS/9 was a very cool OS as it was very Unix like. > the development stages for the project, and at the server end.? I did > field engineering for Transduction, and we supplied equipment to Norpak, > although I can't for the life of me remember what!? I remember going to > visit their headquarters in Pakenham and was surprised to find it was a > set of farm outbuildings!? That was the NORton family of PAKenham, > whence they got the name. The Norton's are well known here in Ottawa. Our Amateur Radio club here has the Joe Norton award. https://www.oarc.net/pages/about/awards-1/joe-norton-award/ "Joe Norton was co-founder of one of the first high-tech companies in Ottawa, Computing Devices of Canada, which he helped start in 1948. Joe balanced his work life with family and grew a number of hobbies. He was an avid amateur radio enthusiast and when VE3PN became a silent key in October 1979 his family donated all his amateur radio equipment to the OARC and asked that the donation be used to assist beginning amateurs. After considerable deliberation in 1982 the OARC decided to sell the gear and use the proceeds to establish a trust fund. Since 1985 proceeds from the trust fund have provided new amateurs in the National Capital region with a cash award." Oddly I worked for Computing Devices Canada for a short while too. > > The development system from Carling Drive in Ottawa was transferred to > Bell's Simcoe Street office in Toronto when they went live, and I got a Not the Crystal Bay Exchange? ;) A lot of young programmers got themselves burned out working on the development systems. I never worked on it when I was at BNR hence never saw it but heard the horror stories. The "switch" was a single source code file said to be the largest program in the world. Single compilation no linking. No wonder it took so long to compile. The poor SOBs who worked on it were young 'uns straight out of school and forced to test their code at midnight or 3am. > service call there to work on the DMAX/16s again, as somebody ad removed > the remote diagnostics panel from the PDP11/70? and forgot to replace > the NPG jumper on the backplane, causing bus hangs. ;) > > cheers, > > Nigel (for people who knew me back then, I was called 'Bill' Johnson!) > > ... > > > > (The processor is indeed a 6809, as Diane was mentioning.) > > > > Graphics was very much a part of the Telidon/NAPLPS protocol. > > (Note: Colour capabilities may differ between terminals, the protocol > > was such as to permit a range of compatible implementations.) > > > > While the store directory terminal of the OP 'could' have been a > > Telidon/NAPLPS terminal, I'd be placing my bets more on the Apple-II > > (or similar) as others mentioned. Strikes me more as a standalone > > unit. I think using a videotex/teletext/Telidon/NAPLPS terminal would > > have been awkward and the economics poor, there'd either have to be a > > rented comm line to a remote server, an additional local server, or > > storage hacked onto the terminal. ... > > > > I believe the NAPLPS designation (designation as an industry standard) > > came rather late in the game, an attempt to gain some recognition for > > a dying project. As "Telidon", it had begun years earlier. Yes hence most people referred to it as Telidon. It was a cool idea but the Internet and HTML killed it good and proper. > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Why yes. And the original maker movement! 73 Diane Bruce, VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From matt at 9track.net Sun Oct 20 16:46:33 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 22:46:33 +0100 Subject: Pro 350 Print Set In-Reply-To: <007801d58763$5623da80$026b8f80$@ntlworld.com> References: <007801d58763$5623da80$026b8f80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <762e5e65-be11-119d-d17f-45c5ec3518ef@9track.net> On 20/10/2019 17:27, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Manx lists MP-01394-00 as the Field Maintenance Print Set for the DEC > Professional 350. I can't find this online and I was wondering if anyone has > a scan of it by any chance? > > The Field Maintenance Print Set for the Professional 380 is available on Bitsavers along with some technical manuals for the Professional 350: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ This might give you at least part of what you need. Matt From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 17:46:42 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 15:46:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:45 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 18/10/2019 05:51, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > (I should also note that there is an R80 service manual on Bitsavers -- I > > misspoke (mistyped?) in my initial e-mail. It doesn't provide a lot of > > details on the drive's operation and I was hoping the RA80 or RM80 > manuals > > might be more detailed...) > > I'm guessing you mean AA-M186B-TC "RA80 Maintenance Guide", but if not, > that's there. > > (Assuming I've not mis-typed something, I seem to have a later version, > AA-M186C-TC, but I've not scanned that). > > > Someone else was looking 10 years ago: > > > > https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/gXk9CvKT/looking-for-ra80-service-manual-ek-ora80-sv Yeah, I saw that while searching as well. The service documentation that's available for the R80/RA80 is somewhat useful but lacks detailed technical information, it's a step above a board-swapping guide for service techs, basically. I spent some time yesterday with the schematics (which, annoyingly, don't match my revision of the boards...) and immediately discovered that the optical sensor on the spindle wasn't working anymore -- it was definitely operational when I first started working on it but apparently it gave up the ghost after running for a few hours. So at minimum I need to fix that, there may still be other faults. The sensor picks up light, but it looks like the LED light source on the other end of it is dead. I'm going to attempt to bodge in a replacement IR LED and see if that's good enough... Thanks all, Josh > > > > but seemingly with no luck. > > > I think the FMPS must be on bitsavers but I hit this first: > > > https://usermanual.wiki/Document/MP01286RA80Mar82.3622064137 > > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Oct 20 19:28:43 2019 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 20:28:43 -0400 Subject: Sun Ultra 1 PROM update to OBP 3.11.1 or better Message-ID: Hi, My pal Dave just gave me a very nice original Ultra 1 Creator! Found a nice 10000K 146GB disk and 1GB genuine X7004 Sun RAM from good old MemoryX and this store I'd never used before called DiscTech (great ecomm site and decent prices afaict), so this baby's shaping up to be a fantastic and affordable rescue! Alas, it seems some corporate best practices aficionado from the company that was entrusted with the care and feeding of Sun has unilaterally and unceremoniously "lost" all the old patch clusters for these machines. Anyone still have them? The particular one I need is the patch SUNWflell from anytime after late 1997. This will allow her OpenBoot to play nice with 64-bit operating systems like Solaris and the Illumos-based Tribblix, OpenSXCE, etc, which I'm thinking will be extremely cool to see running on a 25 year old machine! thx much. jake From leec2124 at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 00:18:53 2019 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 22:18:53 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation In-Reply-To: <7bdc9b92-6bd4-132f-4222-40d0e8095f49@bitsavers.org> References: <7bdc9b92-6bd4-132f-4222-40d0e8095f49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Correction to the referenced post - the Keys SDS systems did not come from CHM, but directly from the donor in Kansas City. On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 7:39 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/19/19 1:28 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > > I suspect that something may have happened to John, and this may have > been > > his collection. > > It is. > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71708-Vintage-Computer-Warehouse-Liquidation&p=590154 > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 00:41:52 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 00:41:52 -0500 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I pulled some RA60, R80, R81, etc. prints and manuals earlier, but left them in the basement when I came upstairs.I will bring them up tomorrow and put out a list. Thanks, Paul On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 5:47 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:45 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 18/10/2019 05:51, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > (I should also note that there is an R80 service manual on Bitsavers > -- I > > > misspoke (mistyped?) in my initial e-mail. It doesn't provide a lot of > > > details on the drive's operation and I was hoping the RA80 or RM80 > > manuals > > > might be more detailed...) > > > > I'm guessing you mean AA-M186B-TC "RA80 Maintenance Guide", but if not, > > that's there. > > > > (Assuming I've not mis-typed something, I seem to have a later version, > > AA-M186C-TC, but I've not scanned that). > > > > > > Someone else was looking 10 years ago: > > > > > > > > > https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/gXk9CvKT/looking-for-ra80-service-manual-ek-ora80-sv > > > Yeah, I saw that while searching as well. The service documentation that's > available for the R80/RA80 is somewhat useful but lacks detailed technical > information, it's a step above a board-swapping guide for service techs, > basically. > > I spent some time yesterday with the schematics (which, annoyingly, don't > match my revision of the boards...) and immediately discovered that the > optical sensor on the spindle wasn't working anymore -- it was definitely > operational when I first started working on it but apparently it gave up > the ghost after running for a few hours. So at minimum I need to fix that, > there may still be other faults. The sensor picks up light, but it looks > like the LED light source on the other end of it is dead. I'm going to > attempt to bodge in a replacement IR LED and see if that's good enough... > > Thanks all, > Josh > > > > > > > > > > > but seemingly with no luck. > > > > > > I think the FMPS must be on bitsavers but I hit this first: > > > > > > https://usermanual.wiki/Document/MP01286RA80Mar82.3622064137 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Antonio > > > > > > -- > > Antonio Carlini > > antonio at acarlini.com > > > > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 03:16:19 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 04:16:19 -0400 Subject: Microcap12 Spice simulator Message-ID: <0a1c01d587e7$d16f38e0$744daaa0$@gmail.com> Forwarding from another list because of its general interest: ..... A heads up that the guy who was responsible for the full professional grade Spice simulator Microcap (latest version 12) has retired, and made his software downloadable free of charge. It was $4,500 per seat before. Download page here http://www.spectrum-soft.com/download/download.shtm ..... paul From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 08:37:50 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:37:50 +0200 Subject: VT420 drawings Message-ID: I got heaps of documentation from an ex-DEC field service engineer. Among them there were a VT420 print set. I didn't see any schematics for the VT420 on bitsavers so even though this one looks a bit strange it is better than nothing. http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC/VT420-engineering-drawings.pdf /Mattis From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 21 08:22:44 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:22:44 -0400 Subject: Microcap12 Spice simulator In-Reply-To: <0a1c01d587e7$d16f38e0$744daaa0$@gmail.com> References: <0a1c01d587e7$d16f38e0$744daaa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 21, 2019, at 4:16 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > Forwarding from another list because of its general interest: > > ..... > A heads up that the guy who was responsible for the full professional grade > Spice simulator Microcap (latest version 12) has retired, and made his > software downloadable free of charge. It was $4,500 per seat before. > > Download page here http://www.spectrum-soft.com/download/download.shtm > ..... > > paul Thanks! There has long been an open source SPICE (ngspice), but it will be interesting to see how this one compares. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 10:08:33 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:08:33 +0000 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <3771f75d-f433-191c-34c1-596778481769@sydex.com> References: <5DAC97EA.7020603@pico-systems.com> , <3771f75d-f433-191c-34c1-596778481769@sydex.com> Message-ID: The plated wire sounds like really fussy stuff. The layer of permalloy had to be thin but not to thin. I suspect that was to optimize the internal field compared to the outside word select signal. At first, I couldn't understand why they'd need to use beryllium copper but it seems the wires needed to be free standing in the array. Pure copper would sage and touch. Clearly an interesting process. If it had not been for solid state, I suspect it would have been refined to a more manufacturable process. I suspect tuning the layer thickness could have been done while in the plating bath instead of waiting until it was outside. Because of the size of things, I suspect it could have been done by vapor deposit on glass substrates and miniaturized. It depended on the fact that the field had a preferred direction and couldn't be easily rotated. Such things can be done on a flat surface with current day processing. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2019 2:23 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: plated wire memory On 10/20/19 1:50 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It is funny that the most common memory used today is a DRO type memory. The read destroys much of the charge on a DRAM cell, requiring a write back of the data. > Dwight That's true today, but probably not in the near future. Persistent memory is getting faster and cheaper. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 10:13:46 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:13:46 -0400 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The 9300 used it, Donzelli says it wasn't very reliable And I do not remember where I heard that. It may have been from a Univac old-timer. -- Will From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Oct 21 10:52:56 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 08:52:56 -0700 Subject: VT420 drawings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48A0DEC4-A3C8-4E6D-95FA-79742C8DF3DD@avanthar.com> Thank you! I don?t need it now, but since I standardized on VT420?s years ago, it?s nice to have. Zane > On Oct 21, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > I got heaps of documentation from an ex-DEC field service engineer. > > Among them there were a VT420 print set. I didn't see any schematics for > the VT420 on bitsavers so even though this one looks a bit strange it is > better than nothing. > > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC/VT420-engineering-drawings.pdf > > /Mattis From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 21 11:19:48 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:19:48 -0500 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> And what sort of technology was that screen using? I expected to see the grid array of outer infrared LEDs and detectors that I vaguely remember from that era, but I don't see that here. Someone was making a tube that was coarsely touch-sensitive? - John From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 21 11:49:26 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:49:26 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:19 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > And what sort of technology was that screen using? I expected to see > the grid array of outer infrared LEDs and detectors that I vaguely remember > from that era, but I don't see that here. Someone was making a tube > that was coarsely touch-sensitive? Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex screen. When CDC built a CRT-based version of the PLATO terminal (the "IST"), they had to come up with a touch panel for that. The scheme used involved two layers of plastic, thick enough to be just a little springy, with conductors on the facing side. I don't remember the type used, it may have been very thin wires or it may have been a mostly-transparent conductive coating (some indium alloy or compound comes to mind). Touching the screen would create a contact between an X and a Y conductor, so you'd get your coordinates via a scan process just like in the IR touch panel, or for that matter like in keyboards (of that time and later). paul From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:51:19 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:51:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex screen. My HP150 will have to disagree with you there. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 21 11:56:06 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:56:06 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <739B6CA5-6DD7-468A-82AB-5BC5CDC1B147@comcast.net> > On Oct 21, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > >> Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex screen. > > My HP150 will have to disagree with you there. > > -tony I suppose it depends on "how convex" and how far you're willing to place the IR grid from the screen. In any case, the IR touch panels from PLATO plasma displays were not carried forward to the CRT based IST terminals. Perhaps CDC liked their technology better even though both could have worked; at this point the reasons why are probably hard to discover. paul From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:57:15 2019 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:57:15 -0500 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:51 AM Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat > panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex > screen. > > My HP150 will have to disagree with you there. > > -tony > As would the Oldsmobile Toronado. The Buick Riviera took a different approach using a resistive array. It worked well, but wasn't compatible with gloved hands. -C From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 21 11:58:40 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:58:40 -0500 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20191021165855.C5A1C4E678@mx2.ezwind.net> At 11:51 AM 10/21/2019, Tony Duell wrote: >> Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex screen. > >My HP150 will have to disagree with you there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-150#/media/File:Hp150_touchscreen_20081129.jpg - John From pat at vax11.net Mon Oct 21 12:30:59 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:30:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens? In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 12:49 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > And what sort of technology was that screen using? I expected to see > > the grid array of outer infrared LEDs and detectors that I vaguely remember > > from that era, but I don't see that here. Someone was making a tube > > that was coarsely touch-sensitive? > > Theinfrared array you're thinking of was invented at PLATO, for flat panel (plasma) displays. They don't work for CRTs because of the convex screen. I've got a VT100 with a (3rd party?) IR-LED based touch screen which fits into the normal black bezel around the tube. Pat From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 21 13:24:00 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:24:00 -0700 Subject: Commercial touchscreens (was Re: Anyone familiar with these vintage touchscreens?) In-Reply-To: References: <20191021162222.C67484E6F7@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8ef0cf8f-860d-4668-c752-2874e97a782e@bitsavers.org> Boundless made CRT kits for decades They are also on HP 16500 logic analyzers I had a prototype IR touchscreen monitor for the Alto, but stupidly didn't hang onto it. On 10/21/19 10:30 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I've got a VT100 with a (3rd party?) IR-LED based touch screen which > fits into the normal black bezel around the tube. > > Pat > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:35:33 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:35:33 +0000 Subject: plated wire memory In-Reply-To: References: <2b5fd5d6-ee68-6ece-4d6e-8dbfcf59e93c@bitsavers.org> <19119c01-9f11-d567-2e96-4c50e7aa1ca2@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: It can't be all that bad if it has been flying in space for all these year without crashing the processors. The CMOS processor has lost several CMOS memory bits but the main control processor is still chugging away on its original wire memory. There are a lot of factors in the entire system. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of William Donzelli via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 8:13 AM To: Al Kossow via cctalk Subject: Re: plated wire memory > The 9300 used it, Donzelli says it wasn't very reliable And I do not remember where I heard that. It may have been from a Univac old-timer. -- Will From tpisek at pobox.com Mon Oct 21 13:31:10 2019 From: tpisek at pobox.com (Todd Pisek) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:31:10 -0500 Subject: plated wire memory Message-ID: I worked at Univac Defense Systems in the early 70's. The launch control computer for the Minuteman was made by Univac. It had plated wire memory. I remember when the failure analysis group had to analyze a module that failed in the field. The module was locked in a safe and someone had to boost their clearance level to work on it. In plant 1, in Saint Paul, MN near the Mississippi River, there was a thin film memory production facility. It produced the memory used in the S3A submarine hunter (an/ayk-10 if I remember correctly). The bit planes were made from etched glass that had metal sputtered onto it, with tons of tiny holes for the word wires. The bit planes were stacked and the word wires were threaded through the tiny holes perpendicular to the planes. Because I sometimes worked out of plant 1, I had to take safety training for hydrofluoric acid which was used to etch the glass. Nasty stuff. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 22:38:41 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:38:41 -0500 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have RA60 prints, with notes, RA81 Maint Guide AA-M879B-TC RA80 MG AA-M186B-TC RM80 POCKET SERV GUIDE EK-0RM80-PG-001 RA81 Field Maint print set MP-01359? I also have prints and or manuals for RP04/5/6 RK611, RK06/07 TUxx and parts for mass bus devices which I will never use. I have no problem selling heads and other parts, but not sure on documentation yet. If i do sell them, the buyer must agree to scan and send copies to Al. I still want to sell off all my q-bus- about 10-15 boxes, and maybe 600 or more boards. All Vax is going. I also have several 8-E boxes, and some boards. also 100 or so non- DEC boards such as Able, CMD, Dilog, Emulex, ETC. Paul On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 12:41 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > I pulled some RA60, R80, R81, etc. prints and manuals earlier, but left > them in the basement when I came upstairs.I will bring them up tomorrow > and put out a list. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 5:47 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 1:45 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > On 18/10/2019 05:51, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> > > >> > > (I should also note that there is an R80 service manual on Bitsavers >> -- I >> > > misspoke (mistyped?) in my initial e-mail. It doesn't provide a lot >> of >> > > details on the drive's operation and I was hoping the RA80 or RM80 >> > manuals >> > > might be more detailed...) >> > >> > I'm guessing you mean AA-M186B-TC "RA80 Maintenance Guide", but if not, >> > that's there. >> > >> > (Assuming I've not mis-typed something, I seem to have a later version, >> > AA-M186C-TC, but I've not scanned that). >> > >> > >> > Someone else was looking 10 years ago: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/gXk9CvKT/looking-for-ra80-service-manual-ek-ora80-sv >> >> >> Yeah, I saw that while searching as well. The service documentation >> that's >> available for the R80/RA80 is somewhat useful but lacks detailed technical >> information, it's a step above a board-swapping guide for service techs, >> basically. >> >> I spent some time yesterday with the schematics (which, annoyingly, don't >> match my revision of the boards...) and immediately discovered that the >> optical sensor on the spindle wasn't working anymore -- it was definitely >> operational when I first started working on it but apparently it gave up >> the ghost after running for a few hours. So at minimum I need to fix >> that, >> there may still be other faults. The sensor picks up light, but it looks >> like the LED light source on the other end of it is dead. I'm going to >> attempt to bodge in a replacement IR LED and see if that's good enough... >> >> Thanks all, >> Josh >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > but seemingly with no luck. >> > >> > >> > I think the FMPS must be on bitsavers but I hit this first: >> > >> > >> > https://usermanual.wiki/Document/MP01286RA80Mar82.3622064137 >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > Antonio >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Antonio Carlini >> > antonio at acarlini.com >> > >> > >> > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 02:05:04 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:05:04 +0200 Subject: DEC documentation Message-ID: I have updated my inventory of DEC documentation with the latest arrivals from Gunnar, the ex-DEC FS tech. Those were mostly binders of software documentation and handbooks. If there are a document that you would like to have scanned I will do my best to help out. But please do me a favour to check if they are not online already from the regular sources. http://forum.datormuseum.se/category/35A7E09F-5154-49F1-BE57-9F9E3D923327.html I can only scan documents up to ledger size. Larger documents, like some of the old schematics, need help from a professional scanning service, which unfortunately cost money. I cannot scan books, either. I will continuously update the inventory as I go through all the documentation. There are likely to be errors in the inventory. Typing on the phone is a pain. If you find errors please let me know. /Mattis From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Oct 22 02:11:07 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:11:07 +0100 Subject: VT420 drawings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91bv9sh5k6s.fsf@mimas.cs.nott.ac.uk> Awesome! thanks for sharing this. Aaron On 21 October 2019 at 14:37 BST, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I got heaps of documentation from an ex-DEC field service engineer. > > Among them there were a VT420 print set. I didn't see any schematics for > the VT420 on bitsavers so even though this one looks a bit strange it is > better than nothing. > > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC/VT420-engineering-drawings.pdf > > /Mattis From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Oct 22 02:24:17 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:24:17 +1100 Subject: FTGH Decstation 5000 Message-ID: <038501d588a9$b7b39d70$271ad850$@internode.on.net> FTGH Decstation 5000 * Decstation 5000/125 - also houses a CD drive * 2 Expansion storage boxes - one has a tape drive and the other one has a floppy drive. * 2 very large and heavy RGB Digital monitors - one has both Digital and Sony branding on the back of it. I haven't dug the other one out as it's in a corner and is dam heavy but it looks the same as the other one. * A box of spares including a keyboard, two mice, a CD drive, some cables, a couple of CPU's, three genuine HDDs and a big bag of RAM I've never powered it up - it was a rescue - I believe it was a server at a TAFE college in Adelaide, South Australia. I am located in south western Victoria (Australia) Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 From mj at mjturner.net Tue Oct 22 04:43:15 2019 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:43:15 +0100 Subject: Sun Ultra 1 PROM update to OBP 3.11.1 or better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191022094315.lkgqf4lgrptox7n7@saucer.turnde.net> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 08:28:43PM -0400, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Anyone still have them? The particular one I need is the patch > SUNWflell from anytime after late 1997. Yes, I have the standalone PROM updates for a variety of machines from that era. Have sent a separate reply off-list. Cheers, MJ -- Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ From web at loomcom.com Tue Oct 22 09:15:31 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 07:15:31 -0700 Subject: FTGH Decstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <038501d588a9$b7b39d70$271ad850$@internode.on.net> References: <038501d588a9$b7b39d70$271ad850$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2019, at 12:24 AM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > FTGH Decstation 5000 > > * Decstation 5000/125 - also houses a CD drive > * 2 Expansion storage boxes - one has a tape drive and the other one has a > floppy drive. > * 2 very large and heavy RGB Digital monitors - one has both Digital and > Sony branding on the back of it. I haven't dug the other one out as it's in > a corner and is dam heavy but it looks the same as the other one. > * A box of spares including a keyboard, two mice, a CD drive, some cables, a > couple of CPU's, three genuine HDDs and a big bag of RAM Oh, memories. I do hope someone (who is not me) rescues this. A cluster of three DECstation 5000s running Ultrix 4.2a was my first introduction to UNIX when I arrived at Cornell University in 1992. They're dreadful machines, but very nostalgic for me. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 22 18:08:31 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:08:31 +0100 Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV or similar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eb0857d-13d6-6290-8949-cbf3aa3c04c4@ntlworld.com> On 22/10/2019 04:38, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > RA81 Maint Guide AA-M879B-TC Online > RA80 MG AA-M186B-TC Online > RM80 POCKET SERV GUIDE EK-0RM80-PG-001 Seemingly not online anywhere ... > RA81 Field Maint print set MP-01359? Rev A is online Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Oct 23 06:36:11 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:36:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM 129 keypunch: How to remove the complete mechanics unit? References: <1518195477.8762273.1571830571013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1518195477.8762273.1571830571013@mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, I may get a 129 IBM keypuncher soon and was wondering, if for transportation- and weight-related reasons, the punch&read mechanics can be carefully removed with the cables from the rest of the sytem? >From the IBM documents, it seems that after removing the top cover from the table, the mechanics connected to two holders (one one each end) could be separated from the table by removing two screws and two bolts (one of each on every side) and deconnecting all cables down in the electronics cabinet. See for instance: UvA Computermuseum UvA Computermuseum Did anybody make any experiences with this? I am grateful for any suggestions and/or recommendations. Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Oct 23 18:21:05 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:21:05 -0700 Subject: Vigra MMI-210 (VME DSP/audio card) documentation? Message-ID: I just acquired a Vigra MMI-210 VME DSP/audio card that I?d like to get working. Does anyone happen to have manuals or know where I could find them? The Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive provides some programming information so if I can configure the card, I can make it do things. Unfortunately I have yet to find an installation guide. Since it?s a VME card, it has plenty of jumpers that will need to be properly set before it?ll actually work. Anyone have a source for more information, or another place to dig for it? -- Chris From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 23 19:44:52 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:44:52 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/2019 6:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I >>> guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last >>> night. >> What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and >> Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's >> not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, >> curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. > For the messages, I used > > https://github.com/andrewferguson/YahooGroups-Archiver > > Unfortunately, the (rather inadequate) Y!G API for files makes it difficult > to iterate over files in a directory tree. I ended up manually downloading > them, since it was only about 30 files and not worth ginning up something > to scrape them. Some people have used > > https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup I didn't get that to work.? Has anyone here got suggestions? Contact off list.? It is getting errors, and I spent about an hour trying to figure it out. every issue was a bug in either Python that was unresolved, or the tools they were using, not errors in the tool, so I'm not really interested in a lot more debugging. I suspect it ran at some point, maybe I've got the wrong versions of some sort. thanks Jim > to get everything but it needs a MongoDB instance which seemed kind of > overkill for a one-time dump. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 23 19:58:08 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I suspect it ran at some point, maybe I've got the wrong versions of some > sort. I have no special knowledge. this is just uninformed speculation, . . . If it is old enough, could it be that the changes for "NEO" broke it? (possibly deliberately, since Yahoo had no desire for anybody to access below the user level) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 23 20:26:14 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:26:14 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/19 5:44 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> ????https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup > I didn't get that to work.? Has anyone here got suggestions? Contact off list.? It is getting errors, and I spent about > an hour trying to figure it out. I couldn't make it work either. This is what archiveteam knows currently https://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Yahoo!_Groups From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 23 20:50:32 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 11:50:32 +1000 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Jim said > On 10/17/2019 6:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>>> Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I >>>> guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last >>>> night. >>> What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and >>> Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's >>> not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, >>> curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. >> For the messages, I used >> >> https://github.com/andrewferguson/YahooGroups-Archiver >> >> Unfortunately, the (rather inadequate) Y!G API for files makes it difficult >> to iterate over files in a directory tree. I ended up manually downloading >> them, since it was only about 30 files and not worth ginning up something >> to scrape them. Some people have used >> >> https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup > I didn't get that to work.? Has anyone here got suggestions? Contact off > list.? It is getting errors, and I spent about an hour trying to figure > it out. > > every issue was a bug in either Python that was unresolved, or the tools > they were using, not errors in the tool, so I'm not really interested in > a lot more debugging. > > I suspect it ran at some point, maybe I've got the wrong versions of > some sort. > > thanks > Jim >> to get everything but it needs a MongoDB instance which seemed kind of >> overkill for a one-time dump. I set it up with python 3.7.3, pip installed the required modules such as Selenium, installed geckodriver for Firefox (but I don't run Firefox on this machine, I use a popular fork) and it emitted an error that referes to Selenium not being the correct match to Firefox. I have other things to do so that's where I left it for now, will try it out again sometime soon with an earlier actual Firefox. Steve. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 23 22:10:35 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:10:35 -0700 Subject: Interdata extender board Message-ID: <1193060d-d31c-df45-4d07-0aa8e1725016@bitsavers.org> In case someone needs it. It is for a 70 series. https://www.ebay.com/itm/283652630301 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 02:51:36 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:51:36 +0100 Subject: Yahoo Groups going away In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3d4c01d58a3f$dcb59c80$9620d580$@gmail.com> have been reasonably successful, after making a few mods, in backing up Yahoo groups using a clone of "Yahoo Group Archiver" which broadly works (but see below) and doesn't need any scraping tools. I made a few tweaks concentrating on speed rather than documenting the code and the current mess is here:- https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onleMG29vMs5czmPcoTw?e=TrqawF The script yahoo.py is supposed back up things to files. I couldn't get use the user/password login part to work, but noted scripts also have support for putting the cookies in the command line. So I downloaded cookie manager for Firefox, logged into Yahoo and added code to set the values at the top of the code. The result is "yahoo1.py" Its pretty obvious which cookies are needed. I found this fails on unnamed photo albums. I also found file download flaky. So Yahoo2 will fix photo albums with duff names and skip downloading any existing files. This leaves one bug. If a download fails the script may leave an empty file. If you want to restart that download you need to remove it before restarting the download. Sometimes Yahoo barfs at a file because updated av/malware scanners mark its as bad. E.g. archives which contain "netcat" In this case leave the partial download in place and allow the script to skip We also don't get file descriptions. I am running the scripts on Windows/10 on Python 3.7.5 on Windows/10 and use "py" to run the scripts When installing the required "requests" package (see the readme.md) I found I had to enter the full path to pip (Its it the scripts folder) I am happy to answer any questions but note I am in the UK (that is East Pondia not the University of Kentucky) so please allow for my time zone. Dave G4UGM P.S. I now hate python.... PPS I also now hate Yahoo. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Steve Malikoff via > cctalk > Sent: 24 October 2019 02:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups going away > > Jim said > > On 10/17/2019 6:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >>>> Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for > >>>> years, and I guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to > >>>> archive everything last night. > >>> What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their > >>> Files and Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily > >>> Javascript-encrusted that it's not at all easy to bulk archive from > >>> them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, > >>> curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. > >> For the messages, I used > >> > >> https://github.com/andrewferguson/YahooGroups-Archiver > >> > >> Unfortunately, the (rather inadequate) Y!G API for files makes it > >> difficult to iterate over files in a directory tree. I ended up > >> manually downloading them, since it was only about 30 files and not > >> worth ginning up something to scrape them. Some people have used > >> > >> https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup > > I didn't get that to work. Has anyone here got suggestions? Contact > > off list. It is getting errors, and I spent about an hour trying to > > figure it out. > > > > every issue was a bug in either Python that was unresolved, or the > > tools they were using, not errors in the tool, so I'm not really > > interested in a lot more debugging. > > > > I suspect it ran at some point, maybe I've got the wrong versions of > > some sort. > > > > thanks > > Jim > >> to get everything but it needs a MongoDB instance which seemed kind > >> of overkill for a one-time dump. > > > I set it up with python 3.7.3, pip installed the required modules such as > Selenium, installed geckodriver for Firefox (but I don't run Firefox on this > machine, I use a popular fork) and it emitted an error that referes to Selenium > not being the correct match to Firefox. > I have other things to do so that's where I left it for now, will try it out again > sometime soon with an earlier actual Firefox. > > Steve. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 24 07:13:03 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:13:03 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/E MM8-E jumper settings Message-ID: <605b224e-5ce0-9d61-7f88-4e3fdde61bca@dunnington.plus.com> I've lost track of where the jumper settings are documented for the MM8-E, and I've got five sets here that have all been changed one way or another. Can anybody remind me where to find the settings for the three EMA jumper links on the G111? I want to set at least one board set to the lowest bank. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From ethan at 757.org Thu Oct 24 12:30:32 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vigra MMI-210 (VME DSP/audio card) documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I just acquired a Vigra MMI-210 VME DSP/audio card that I?d like to get > working. Does anyone happen to have manuals or know where I could find > them? The Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive provides some > Anyone have a source for more information, or another place to dig for it? SGI sold one model of these as their audio option for SGI Onyx and Challenge series I believe? If it's similar enough maybe there is documentation from that? -- : Ethan O'Toole From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Oct 24 12:59:31 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:59:31 -0700 Subject: Vigra MMI-210 (VME DSP/audio card) documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E58CA91-1231-40F6-9E3B-2F5386A841E7@eschatologist.net> On Oct 24, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: > >> I just acquired a Vigra MMI-210 VME DSP/audio card that I?d like to get working. Does anyone happen to have manuals or know where I could find them? The Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive provides some Anyone have a source for more information, or another place to dig for it? > > SGI sold one model of these as their audio option for SGI Onyx and Challenge series I believe? If it's similar enough maybe there is documentation from that? Yeah, the docs I?ve found say the MMI-110 was sold for the Onyx as Vigrasound and used extensively in Discreet Logic installations. There?s a whole huge chain of acquisitions Vigra went through though (Visicom, Titan, L3, Harris) and I fear this information was lost. There are *a lot* of jumpers on this card, it?s pretty oldschool VME. -- Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 25 21:43:39 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 19:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now been updated. Don't you feel safer that it is now on the interwebs, and doing windows updates every day? "Update Complete: U.S. Nuclear Weapons No Longer Need Floppy Disks The Defense Department has transitioned away from a 1970s-era nuclear command and control system that relied on eight-inch floppy disks. The modernizing effort was quietly completed in June." -NYTimes https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/v4PmZDi7MtjL4dBgHkrNHg~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRfl Uz3P0T_aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnl0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAxOS8xMC8yNC91cy9udWNsZWFyLXdlYXBv bnMtZmxvcHB5LWRpc2tzLmh0bWw_dGU9MSZubD1tb3JuaW5nLWJyaWVmaW5nJmVtYz1lZGl0X05 OX3BfMjAxOTEwMjUmc2VjdGlvbj13aGF0RWxzZT9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD05Jmluc3RhbmNlX2lkPT EzMzcwJnNlZ21lbnRfaWQ9MTgyMzEmdXNlcl9pZD1hMjcxOTVlODNkNzYwZTRiZjg3YmM1YWUyN zliNTY5YyZyZWdpX2lkPTc5MjgwMjM1aW9uPXdoYXRFbHNlVwNueXRCCgAk98eyXe9q5TlSEm5h bmN5d2ViYjFAYW9sLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 15:30:16 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:30:16 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a firmware dump for Teleray Series 10 terminals? Message-ID: Hi, All, I was recently at the CompuServe 50th Anniversary event which included a tour of our old building at 5000 Arlington Center Blvd, where I worked in 2001-2002. The old data center is still in operation, being rented out by Expedient as a cloud hosting and co-location facility. One of the highlights of the tour is an old Teleray 10T they found when they moved in 9 years ago. They have it cleaned up and on display in their conference room. I did a little digging and quickly found the docs on Bitsavers (thanks as always, Al). What struck me was the appearance of the mainboard. I went up into my attic, and wouldn't you know, I _have_ one, labelled "Model 10C" - same board but (formerly) with special feature firmware to be a 10C. What I don't have is ROMs in the ROM sockets. :-( It's five ;places for standard 2708 EPROMs. From the memory map and some of the photos in the docs, not every model had ROM in "Position 5". It looks like all did have 4 EPROMs installed. I have blanks and I have a burner. What's not up on Bitsavers is the 10T or 10C firmware. Does anyone have anything like that? It looks like the keyboard is both easy and not easy to remanufacture. It's a raw matrix, attached via fat round cable and DB25. The Keyboard includes a 74154 to decode 4 bits to 16 lines and the returns are via 8 lines. On the Terminal side, the 4 bits map to the 6502's A0-A3 and the return lines map to D0-D7 (it appears at $0000-$000F in the memory map). 91 keys, 1 IC and a lot of diodes would implement a keyboard, as would an AVR microcontroller sitting on the 12 row/column lines, translating to/from a modern keyboard. The video appears to be standard 15.575KHz 1.0-2.5V mono video plus H. Sync and V. Sync. routed off the board via the power supply connector (+5V @ 3A, +/-12V @ 0.4A and a smattering of -5V for the 2708s). So the only thing I would really need is copies of 4 or 5 EPROMs and I think I could get this working with a replacement display and reimplemented keyboard. Anyone happen to have the firmware? Thanks, -ethan From jimbobrocks92 at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 18:30:47 2019 From: jimbobrocks92 at gmail.com (James Plummer) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 10:30:47 +1100 Subject: FTGH Decstation 5000 In-Reply-To: <038501d588a9$b7b39d70$271ad850$@internode.on.net> References: <038501d588a9$b7b39d70$271ad850$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6AAE00AB-45EF-4C90-9521-88E14203EEDD@gmail.com> Gday Kevin I?m in south eastern Victoria and am interested in these systems Please feel free to shoot me a message on or off the list to discuss further details Sent from my iPhone > On 22 Oct 2019, at 18:24, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > FTGH Decstation 5000 > > * Decstation 5000/125 - also houses a CD drive > * 2 Expansion storage boxes - one has a tape drive and the other one has a > floppy drive. > * 2 very large and heavy RGB Digital monitors - one has both Digital and > Sony branding on the back of it. I haven't dug the other one out as it's in > a corner and is dam heavy but it looks the same as the other one. > * A box of spares including a keyboard, two mice, a CD drive, some cables, a > couple of CPU's, three genuine HDDs and a big bag of RAM > > I've never powered it up - it was a rescue - I believe it was a server at a > TAFE college in Adelaide, South Australia. > > I am located in south western Victoria (Australia) > > Kevin Parker > 0418 815 527 > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 26 10:19:54 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 10:19:54 -0500 Subject: Can't contact Dave McGuire AK4HZ Message-ID: <5DB4641A.5060701@pico-systems.com> Dave McQuire keeps emailing me about the CAMAC controller boards, but he obviously is not getting my replies. Anybody know how to contact him? Thanks, Jon From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 26 10:28:48 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 10:28:48 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> At 09:43 PM 10/25/2019, you wrote: >Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . >news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now been updated. And what media or method did they upgrade to? Top secret? Here's a different version of the story: https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-forces-dr-strangelove-era-messaging-system-finally-got-rid-of-its-floppy-disks/ - John From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 26 04:00:27 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 11:00:27 +0200 Subject: Philips mini computers Message-ID: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Hi all, Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and possibly other. Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying to collect what is left of the documentation. 73, Nico From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 12:44:37 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 18:44:37 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:36 PM nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini > computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and > possibly other. > > Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these > products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying > to collect what is left of the documentation. My first minicomputer (which I still have and can see from where I am sitting) was a Philips P850. I now also own a P851 and a P854 (both with floppy drives) and lots of spares. As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the P850, the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual (alas without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk system, etc. User manuals for at least the P850 and P851. And some software-related manuals, manuals on related machines, etc but I would have to check exactly what I have there. -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 12:44:37 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 18:44:37 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:36 PM nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini > computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and > possibly other. > > Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these > products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying > to collect what is left of the documentation. My first minicomputer (which I still have and can see from where I am sitting) was a Philips P850. I now also own a P851 and a P854 (both with floppy drives) and lots of spares. As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the P850, the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual (alas without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk system, etc. User manuals for at least the P850 and P851. And some software-related manuals, manuals on related machines, etc but I would have to check exactly what I have there. -tony From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 26 12:53:44 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 19:53:44 +0200 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-26 19:44, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:36 PM nico de jong via cctalk > wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >> possibly other. >> >> Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these >> products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying >> to collect what is left of the documentation. > My first minicomputer (which I still have and can see from where I am sitting) > was a Philips P850. I now also own a P851 and a P854 (both with floppy drives) > and lots of spares. > > As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the P850, > the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual (alas > without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for > things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk system, etc. > > User manuals for at least the P850 and P851. And some software-related > manuals, manuals on related machines, etc but I would have to check exactly > what I have there. > > -tony' Hi Tony The manuals you mention, don't ring a bell. We have now more-or-less rejuvenated a PTS6813 aka P857, although without the discs. Furthermore, we have the parts to build a P852 from spare parts. In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler for the P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I have no documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from the documents you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them first? Thanks Nico From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Oct 26 12:59:25 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 13:59:25 -0400 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: Are we talking about ISA-bus computers here?? If so the colour graphics card was a Persyst Bob card, and the bi-sync adapter, if equipped, was also made by Persyst.? I know because I signed them to the contract to buy those two items. I know about their high standards of Quality Control because they rejected about 1/3 of my initial shipments! In 1985, every computer that included a CRT made by Philips was made at their factory in Ste. Laurent, QC, or so their engineers told me. cheers, Nigel (then known as Bill) Johnson On 26/10/2019 13:53, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-10-26 19:44, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:36 PM nico de jong via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >>> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >>> possibly other. >>> >>> Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these >>> products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying >>> to collect what is left of the documentation. >> My first minicomputer (which I still have and can see from where I am >> sitting) >> was a Philips P850. I now also own a P851 and a P854 (both with >> floppy drives) >> and lots of spares. >> >> As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the >> P850, >> the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual >> (alas >> without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for >> things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk >> system, etc. >> >> User manuals for at least the P850 and P851. And some software-related >> manuals, manuals on related machines, etc but I would have to check >> exactly >> what I have there. >> >> -tony' > > Hi Tony > > The manuals you mention, don't ring a bell. > > We have now more-or-less rejuvenated a PTS6813 aka P857, although > without the discs. > > Furthermore, we have the parts to build a P852 from spare parts. > > In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler for > the P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I have > no documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from the > documents you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them first? > > Thanks > > Nico > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 13:01:18 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 19:01:18 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:53 PM nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler for > the P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I have > no documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from the > documents you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them first? I would have to get them scanned. The technical manuals are looseleaf in ring binders so could go through a sheetfeed scanner if I can find somebody with one. The user manuals are paperback books and would be very hard to scan without damage (needless to say I am not prepared to ruin them!) -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 14:30:38 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 14:30:38 -0500 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: mean like this https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x795q90/r/922/b5tczU.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/922/XYBanl.jpg https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x186q90/r/922/RCQmCW.jpg From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 14:32:54 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 14:32:54 -0500 Subject: Can't contact Dave McGuire AK4HZ In-Reply-To: <5DB4641A.5060701@pico-systems.com> References: <5DB4641A.5060701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 10/26/19 10:19 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Dave McQuire keeps emailing me about the CAMAC controller boards, but he > obviously is not getting my replies. > Anybody know how to contact him? FYI I just threw him a message on facebook letting him know, although it's not saying that he's actually read it yet. About the only thing more unreliable than email these days is facebook's message system ;-) cheers Jules From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 14:41:40 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 14:41:40 -0500 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: also helps if u google stuff quik google found this site with lots on the 856m 857 http://www.vaxbarn.com/p800/home.html im more interested in the p1000 series my self actually has one of the 3 sales models built in the 60's for that system but thats a big iron On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 2:30 PM Adrian Stoness wrote: > mean like this > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x795q90/r/922/b5tczU.jpg > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/922/XYBanl.jpg > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x186q90/r/922/RCQmCW.jpg > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 26 14:43:02 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:43:02 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4c8ba1e6-90d9-4c9d-1d58-250b04b15a5a@alembic.crystel.com> The far more interesting question is just how many nuclear devices were "missing" in the recount.... CZ On 10/26/2019 11:28 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:43 PM 10/25/2019, you wrote: >> Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . >> news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now been updated. > > And what media or method did they upgrade to? Top secret? > > Here's a different version of the story: > > https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-forces-dr-strangelove-era-messaging-system-finally-got-rid-of-its-floppy-disks/ > > - John > > From ragrabau at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 16:35:50 2019 From: ragrabau at gmail.com (Robert Grabau) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:35:50 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <4c8ba1e6-90d9-4c9d-1d58-250b04b15a5a@alembic.crystel.com> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> <4c8ba1e6-90d9-4c9d-1d58-250b04b15a5a@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <47036073-02a9-815a-202d-0fb8e2c36f5b@gmail.com> My question is where can I get the disk drives? On 10/26/2019 3:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The far more interesting question is just how many nuclear devices > were "missing" in the recount.... > > CZ > > On 10/26/2019 11:28 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> At 09:43 PM 10/25/2019, you wrote: >>> Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . >>> news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now >>> been updated. >> >> And what media or method did they upgrade to?? Top secret? >> >> Here's a different version of the story: >> >> https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-forces-dr-strangelove-era-messaging-system-finally-got-rid-of-its-floppy-disks/ >> >> >> - John >> >> -- Bob Grabau http://www.astrohbg.org http://www.cherrysprings.org Our Star Party: June 14-17, 2018 Cherry Springs State Park, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 26 16:42:16 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 14:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >> Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . >> news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now been updated. On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > And what media or method did they upgrade to? Top secret? > Here's a different version of the story: > https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-forces-dr-strangelove-era-messaging-system-finally-got-rid-of-its-floppy-disks/ Thanks for the URL Amusing that requiring repair technicians having ability to "solder metal" was one of the major problems. The USUAL progression from 8" floppies was to 35 track (later 40 track) single sided (later double) FM single density (later MFM) 48tpi (later 96tpi) 5.25". But, an easier conversion would be straight to "1.2M", which would need few hardware changes other than a custom cable. (In fact, the first Mitsubishi 1.2M drive that I got had a 50 pin connector; later 4854s had a 34 pin connector) But, why not cards or paper tape? Or, if they want to expand speed and capacity, ST506, or even ST412. They could go to thumb drives, such as Stuxnet Or, was the main goal to give it a publicly accessible IP address? ("War Games" is playing on MPLEX right now) Besides convenient recreational Facebook access for staff technicians, why is web browsing implemented on MRI control computers or on WOPR? BTW, the superceded drives and media will remain "classified" until they crumble, and our surplus channels will not get a sudden major influx of available media. From sales at elecplus.com Sat Oct 26 16:42:24 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 16:42:24 -0500 Subject: Lear Siegler terminal Message-ID: <001601d58c46$41965bf0$c4c313d0$@com> I recently purchased one of these, and it arrived in rather sad shape. It does power on. Is there anyone out there who would give it a good home? The housing is cracked in 2 places, and a lot of the key caps got lost before it arrived at my door. Make offer if interested. I will pack it well for shipping, or it can be picked up. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OvlRYmr1sC9xvZPAImedqUl7nh11Rs_K Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Oct 26 16:52:03 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:52:03 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <9812c31a-4b0a-38df-bb31-be5c193f0a39@ieee.org> In all my years of electronics troubleshooting, I have never spent hours under a microscope :-)? OK, it was easier using the RTL of the Univac 418, but even today the parts are big enough to see! On 26/10/2019 17:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Hidden behind a NYTimes paywall, . . . >>> news yesterday that the 8 inch drive nuclear weapions system has now >>> been updated. > > On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> And what media or method did they upgrade to?? Top secret? >> Here's a different version of the story: >> https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-forces-dr-strangelove-era-messaging-system-finally-got-rid-of-its-floppy-disks/ >> > > Thanks for the URL > Amusing that requiring repair technicians having ability to "solder > metal" was one of the major problems. > > > The USUAL progression from 8" floppies was to 35 track (later 40 > track) single sided (later double) FM single density (later MFM) 48tpi > (later 96tpi) 5.25". > But, an easier conversion would be straight to "1.2M", which would > need few hardware changes other than a custom cable. > (In fact, the first Mitsubishi 1.2M drive that I got had a 50 pin > connector; later 4854s had a 34 pin connector) > > But, why not cards or paper tape? > > Or, if they want to expand speed and capacity, ST506, or even ST412. > > They could go to thumb drives, such as Stuxnet > > Or, was the main goal to give it a publicly accessible IP address? > ("War Games" is playing on MPLEX right now) > > > Besides convenient recreational Facebook access for staff technicians, > why is web browsing implemented on MRI control computers or on WOPR? > > > BTW, the superceded drives and media will remain "classified" until > they crumble, and our surplus channels will not get a sudden major > influx of available media. -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 26 17:05:24 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: <9812c31a-4b0a-38df-bb31-be5c193f0a39@ieee.org> References: <201910180152.x9I1qQHl22413468@floodgap.com> <9043c4d0-c99f-a84b-7f57-43ab0fd660d0@bitsavers.org> <20191026153056.9C9AA4E6F5@mx2.ezwind.net> <9812c31a-4b0a-38df-bb31-be5c193f0a39@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > In all my years of electronics troubleshooting, I have never spent hours > under a microscope :-)? OK, it was easier using the RTL of the Univac 418, > but even today the parts are big enough to see! Do they do a lot of decapping and repairing ICs? :-) Is it becoming that hard to get a working 8080 and support chips? From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sat Oct 26 17:31:18 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:31:18 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0McoSN-1igISP3yUb-00HtTo@mrelay.perfora.net> >Besides convenient recreational Facebook access >for staff technicians, why >is web browsing implemented on MRI control >computers or on WOPR?Because most apps used in the hospital (e.g. CERNER, EPIC, MedNet, teletracking, scheduling, etc.) Sre implemented as web apps many served from offsite servers. Welcome to the 60s folks.-Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 26 17:51:22 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:51:22 -0700 Subject: Jacquard Systems Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372814919055 I'm surprised there is any interest in these. I bought some docs/sw on eBay years ago for one of these and have never run across anyone that had a system. From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sat Oct 26 13:13:02 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:13:02 +0200 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On 26.10.19 11:00, nico de jong via cctech wrote: > Hi all, > > Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and possibly other. > > Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying to collect what is left of the documentation. > > 73, Nico > > Wel I am of course, but then you knew that ! Currently I have -: - a P857 - a P856 missing the box, PS & backplane ( simple enough to reproduce ) - a measuring system based on the P854 CPU ( the same I brought you ) - a P851, missing the backplane, frontpanel,? a serial card and the PSU. - 2 single-chip P800 CPU's I have documentation on the P852, P956, P833 digital cassette On software side not much : a single cassette with Fortran & manuals. Yes, we should get Al interested in these ! But AFAIK they never made in to the US. Regards, Jos From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Oct 26 19:38:10 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:38:10 -0400 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: > On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:00 AM, nico de jong via cctech wrote: > > Hi all, > > Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and possibly other. I don't remember those; I do remember a Philips mini called the PR8000. That was apparently designed for industrial control, at least judging by the marketing brochure I have for it. It's the machine on which I learned assembly language programming. 24 bit machine, French mnemonics. Very interesting interrupt system. I've never seen any documents about it other than that one short 10-page marketing sheet. Then there was a 16 bit Philips minicomputer, P9200? Saw it at the Evoluon in Eindhoven where it controlled an interactive sculpture called the Senster. That has been preserved apparently; it would be neat to do a simulation of it. paul From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Oct 26 19:46:46 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 17:46:46 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW: 2nd call for Exhibits, Speakers and Volunteers Message-ID: Just a friendly reminder ... VCF PNW 2020 will be on March 21st and 22nd at Living Computers:Museum+Labs in Seattle, Washington. We are looking for exhibits, speakers and volunteers. Presenting an exhibit or speaking at the event takes a little time but it is not difficult. And the reward is that you get to share something that you are passionate about with like-minded people, usually over 1000 of them. Exhibits range from small homebrew machines all the way up to high dollar bigger-iron. (I didn't say big iron because we have not had anybody move anything in with a forklift yet.) Pictures from previous years and details on what to expect can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw . Volunteering is pretty easy too; we usually just need a few extra hands to do setup, teardown, and some minor tasks. In between you get to enjoy the museum and the event. If you have special skills we'll put those to use too. If you are thinking of traveling from outside of the region there is plenty to do in Seattle while you are here. Local attractions include the Connections Museum, the Pacific Science Center, MoPOP, the Boeing factory tour, Mr. Rainier, etc. Victoria, British Columbia is also a short distance away. See a more complete list at https://goo.gl/3emMWH . Five months seems to be the distant future but we all know how quickly it will pass. If you are mildly curious or have a question don't be shy - I'm happy to explain the event in more detail. Regards, Mike mbbrutman at brutman.com or michael at vcfed.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 26 20:31:17 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 18:31:17 -0700 Subject: a bunch of decus pdp-8 writups Message-ID: https://archive.org/details/manuals_hack42?and%5B%5D=addeddate%3A2019-10%2A&sin=&sort=-publicdate&page=1 who knows if they've already been scanned From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 26 20:35:52 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 18:35:52 -0700 Subject: a bunch of decus pdp-8 writups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55c478d8-a100-fdce-2354-153c8f1567a7@bitsavers.org> and whoever is doing it assumes storage is free they are on the order of 800 mb EACH On 10/26/19 6:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://archive.org/details/manuals_hack42?and%5B%5D=addeddate%3A2019-10%2A&sin=&sort=-publicdate&page=1 > > who knows if they've already been scanned > From tsraguso at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 20:39:23 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:39:23 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation Message-ID: Update #3: I have found many examples of rare IBM gear from the 1960s inside the warehouse. These include: 8x IBM 029 keypunch keyboard Boxes of IBM keypunch parts 2x IBM 552 Interpreter 1x IBM 083 Card Sorter 1x IBM 4505 Display Station I have been unable to find anything about the 4505 display station. Does anyone know any details about this item? It resembles an IBM 2260, but the keyboard is not built-in, as in the 2260. I am taking offers on the items listed above. Thomas Raguso From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 20:45:06 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:45:06 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PICTURES! PICTURES! PICTURES! > I have been unable to find anything about the 4505 display station. Does > anyone know any details about this item? It resembles an IBM 2260, but the > keyboard is not built-in, as in the 2260. I think it may be for an IBM 1500, the educational system based on an 1130. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 26 19:45:01 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 19:45:01 -0500 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: phillips when they ventured into the mini world start out by rebadging the honeywell 316 witch i think is what your talking about https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/924/RfzStB.jpg On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 7:38 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:00 AM, nico de jong via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini > computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and > possibly other. > > I don't remember those; I do remember a Philips mini called the PR8000. > That was apparently designed for industrial control, at least judging by > the marketing brochure I have for it. It's the machine on which I learned > assembly language programming. 24 bit machine, French mnemonics. Very > interesting interrupt system. I've never seen any documents about it other > than that one short 10-page marketing sheet. > > Then there was a 16 bit Philips minicomputer, P9200? Saw it at the > Evoluon in Eindhoven where it controlled an interactive sculpture called > the Senster. That has been preserved apparently; it would be neat to do a > simulation of it. > > paul > > From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:38:12 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:38:12 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: No, we are not. The P800 series used a card format, the name of which escapes me at the momen, but I believe it started with an M. The only experience with Philips computers, other then the P800 series, is the P2000. It was marketed by Philips Austria, and was a pre-PC system. I believe there was a CP/M based P3000, but I'm not quite sure. Cheers Nico There is a backplane, and each card can have two or three extra connectors at the back, similar to the one in the middle, going to the backplane. On 2019-10-26 19:59, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Are we talking about ISA-bus computers here?? If so the colour > graphics card was a Persyst Bob card, and the bi-sync adapter, if > equipped, was also made by Persyst.? I know because I signed them to > the contract to buy those two items. I know about their high standards > of Quality Control because they rejected about 1/3 of my initial > shipments! > > In 1985, every computer that included a CRT made by Philips was made > at their factory in Ste. Laurent, QC, or so their engineers told me. > > cheers, > > Nigel (then known as Bill) Johnson > > > On 26/10/2019 13:53, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 2019-10-26 19:44, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:36 PM nico de jong via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >>>> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >>>> possibly other. >>>> >>>> Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these >>>> products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm trying >>>> t >> > From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:40:55 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:40:55 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <4edcae05-b14b-5471-608f-7861da7df6d3@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-26 20:01, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 6:53 PM nico de jong via cctalk > wrote: > >> In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler for >> the P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I have >> no documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from the >> documents you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them first? > I would have to get them scanned. > > The technical manuals are looseleaf in ring binders so could go through a sheetfeed > scanner if I can find somebody with one. The user manuals are paperback books and > would be very hard to scan without damage (needless to say I am not prepared to > ruin them!) > > -tony Hi Tony Of course you shouldnt ruin your books:-) so let's hope someone else has them in a mailable format Thanks Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:43:37 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:43:37 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <75e8cd00-453e-c649-5f2c-9c7ad28ebfa3@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-26 20:13, jos via cctalk wrote: > On 26.10.19 11:00, nico de jong via cctech wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >> possibly other. >> >> Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these >> products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm >> trying to collect what is left of the documentation. >> >> 73, Nico >> >> > Wel I am of course, but then you knew that ! > > > Currently I have -: > > - a P857 > > - a P856 missing the box, PS & backplane ( simple enough to reproduce ) > > - a measuring system based on the P854 CPU ( the same I brought you ) > > - a P851, missing the backplane, frontpanel,? a serial card and the PSU. > > - 2 single-chip P800 CPU's > > > I have documentation on the P852, P956, P833 digital cassette > > On software side not much : a single cassette with Fortran & manuals. > > > Yes, we should get Al interested in these ! But AFAIK they never made > in to the US. > > > Regards, Jos > Hi Jos It's nice to know exactly what you have. I'll put it in a spread sheet, which I'll distribute eventually. It would be nice if we could assemble some working systems from spare parts laying around. Seems to be a winter project, just to collect the data :-) I'll be in touch /Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:43:37 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:43:37 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <75e8cd00-453e-c649-5f2c-9c7ad28ebfa3@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-26 20:13, jos via cctalk wrote: > On 26.10.19 11:00, nico de jong via cctech wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >> possibly other. >> >> Could I be lucky to find other list members interested in these >> products? I know of a few, but there surely must be others. I'm >> trying to collect what is left of the documentation. >> >> 73, Nico >> >> > Wel I am of course, but then you knew that ! > > > Currently I have -: > > - a P857 > > - a P856 missing the box, PS & backplane ( simple enough to reproduce ) > > - a measuring system based on the P854 CPU ( the same I brought you ) > > - a P851, missing the backplane, frontpanel,? a serial card and the PSU. > > - 2 single-chip P800 CPU's > > > I have documentation on the P852, P956, P833 digital cassette > > On software side not much : a single cassette with Fortran & manuals. > > > Yes, we should get Al interested in these ! But AFAIK they never made > in to the US. > > > Regards, Jos > Hi Jos It's nice to know exactly what you have. I'll put it in a spread sheet, which I'll distribute eventually. It would be nice if we could assemble some working systems from spare parts laying around. Seems to be a winter project, just to collect the data :-) I'll be in touch /Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:53:59 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:53:59 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <37f4fc2f-8cc6-4333-37c9-6fbcaeeea91d@farumdata.dk> Yes, exactly. Do you have the manuals in a mailable version? Cheers Nico On 2019-10-26 21:30, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > mean like this > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x795q90/r/922/b5tczU.jpg > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/922/XYBanl.jpg > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x186q90/r/922/RCQmCW.jpg From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 07:57:58 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:57:58 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <07f7b9e0-da51-6cbe-4471-48fbe0757604@farumdata.dk> Yes, I know of Vaxbarn. I have copied many of Camiels manuals, and he has copied a lot of mine. I visited him and his lovely wife a few years ago. Very agreeable people (and nice kids...) I know about the P1000, but I've never seen one "on the flesh". When I started to work for Philips Data Systems in 1980, it was already retired. /Nico On 2019-10-26 21:41, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > also helps if u google stuff quik google found this site with lots on > the 856m 857 > http://www.vaxbarn.com/p800/home.html > > im more interested in the p1000 series my self actually has one of the 3 > sales models built in the 60's for that system but thats a big iron > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 2:30 PM Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> mean like this >> https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x795q90/r/922/b5tczU.jpg >> https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/922/XYBanl.jpg >> https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x186q90/r/922/RCQmCW.jpg >> From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 08:15:12 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 14:15:12 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: The Honeywell does not look like a P800, and to the best of my knowledge Philips (with one L) did their own development in the mini sector. However, I do know that for example one of their text processing systems, one in the P5000 range (the P5001?), was a rebadged Canadiann system, Alas, the name escapes me. The other names mentioned in this mail,? are totally unknown to me. Philips at that time had many interesting products, but they could never lay arm with the big ones like Sony. Just think of the video recorder they made. Excellen quality. I heard that the reason VHS won the battle, was because porn distributors swang a big stick saying that it was quicker to copy tapes on a VHS system. Don't know how true it is. /Nico On 2019-10-27 02:45, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > phillips when they ventured into the mini world start out by rebadging the > honeywell 316 witch i think is what your talking about > https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x533q90/r/924/RfzStB.jpg > > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 7:38 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >>> On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:00 AM, nico de jong via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Back in the 70's and 80's Philips had a quite popular series of mini >> computers called P800, which also branched out to the PTS series and >> possibly other. >> >> I don't remember those; I do remember a Philips mini called the PR8000. >> That was apparently designed for industrial control, at least judging by >> the marketing brochure I have for it. It's the machine on which I learned >> assembly language programming. 24 bit machine, French mnemonics. Very >> interesting interrupt system. I've never seen any documents about it other >> than that one short 10-page marketing sheet. >> >> Then there was a 16 bit Philips minicomputer, P9200? Saw it at the >> Evoluon in Eindhoven where it controlled an interactive sculpture called >> the Senster. That has been preserved apparently; it would be neat to do a >> simulation of it. >> >> paul >> >> From drb at msu.edu Sun Oct 27 08:25:49 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:25:49 -0400 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 27 Oct 2019 14:15:12 +0100.) References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <20191027132549.AB065292B87@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> The Philips P92xx series was the rebadged x16 stuff. De From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 08:34:30 2019 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: Coleco & Atari Message-ID: I came across an old copy of Popular Science on yesterday, forthwith I know not how, that had a story of two vintage/old/retro/classic-computers. How old? 1983. Coleco ADAM, my favourite, and Atari 600XL, not so much. I still have my ADAM. No not why. But isn?t this why we all belong to classiccomp. And $600. How quaint! BTW(sorry), it had an update on CP/M called CP/M Plus. Gosh, I miss those old days. Happy computing all. Murray ? Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Oct 27 09:31:39 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 10:31:39 -0400 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <20191027132549.AB065292B87@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <20191027132549.AB065292B87@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <57D481B5-7820-42DA-B97F-0A96A12446F5@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > The Philips P92xx series was the rebadged x16 stuff. Yes, that's what I understood as well. But others are not. The PR8000 is a quite distinct design; I hope that at some point more documentation will materialize. I have some notes in which I reconstructed part of the instruction set, but it contains only what I can remember from the subset that appears in an old listing, and for example there is very little about the somewhat unusual I/O system. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Oct 27 09:35:36 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 10:35:36 -0400 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: > On Oct 27, 2019, at 9:15 AM, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > > The Honeywell does not look like a P800, and to the best of my knowledge Philips (with one L) did their own development in the mini sector. > > However, I do know that for example one of their text processing systems, one in the P5000 range (the P5001?), was a rebadged Canadiann system, Alas, the name escapes me. > > The other names mentioned in this mail, are totally unknown to me. The PR8000 documents I have can be found on Bitsavers. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Oct 27 09:46:43 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 07:46:43 -0700 Subject: Coleco & Atari In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 27, 2019, at 6:34 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I came across an old copy of Popular Science on yesterday, forthwith I know > not how, that had a story of two vintage/old/retro/classic-computers. How > old? 1983. Coleco ADAM, my favourite, and Atari 600XL, not so much. I still > have my ADAM. No not why. But isn?t this why we all belong to classiccomp. And > $600. How quaint! BTW(sorry), it had an update on CP/M called CP/M Plus. > Gosh, I miss those old days. > > Happy computing all. > > Murray ? I like my Coleco ADAM, but then I like my ColecoVision. What I don?t like about the ADAM is the need to power the printer, to power the computer. End result, the ColecoVision is setup, not the ADAM. From what I saw last weekend at Portland Retro Game Expo, the 8-bit Atari folks have a new motherboard that they can plug their old chips into. Zane From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 27 09:56:00 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 15:56:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, jos wrote: > On software side not much : a single cassette with Fortran & manuals. That is also the problem with our P856, I have a single-density FDC with floppy drives but no floppy based operating system. Christian From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 27 10:21:44 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 16:21:44 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <3d81f5c9-a334-b46d-277e-8f9cd83a7ac6@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-27 15:56, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, jos wrote: >> On software side not much : a single cassette with Fortran & manuals. > > That is also the problem with our P856, I have a single-density FDC > with floppy drives but no floppy based operating system. > > Christian If my experience on the P800 series is anything to go by, I can offer some kind of explanation. The P800 series came two flavours : development system and turnkey system. A development system was harddisc based, for example the diskdrives X1215 and X1216, both having a fixed platter and an exchangeable cartride. The drives had 2 x? (2.5 or 5 MB). 'The development system could use an operating system like MAS, DOM (a very stupid name, as DOM in Dutch means STUPID), DOS or DRTM, Then you could generate turnkey systems, where the "operating system" could be floppy or cassette (ECMA34) based, Turnkey systems typically controlled process equipment and the like, where operator intervention was very limited, normally limited to pushing a few buttons on an operator panel, or to load new programs. />Nico From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 27 12:39:01 2019 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 18:39:01 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Some manuals are available at: http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/doc/index.html There is a simulator (and more manuals) at: http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/p800sim.html Greetings, Fred Jan From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Oct 27 19:38:52 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:38:52 -0500 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 parts Message-ID: I'm still looking for a Silent 700 printhead with all the pixels working. And three keyswitches (or a complete keyboard, doesn't have to be all there or working). thanks Charles -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From web at loomcom.com Sun Oct 27 22:18:46 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:18:46 -0700 Subject: Looking for Silent 700 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 27, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I'm still looking for a Silent 700 printhead with all the pixels working. > And three keyswitches (or a complete keyboard, doesn't have to be all there > or working). > thanks > Charles Hi Charles, A few questions. What model Silent 700 are you searching for? And where are you located? I have a small stack of them and I'd be happy to let one go. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 28 02:30:08 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 08:30:08 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864be041-48ed-eba9-f5d2-de37d6131c88@farumdata.dk> Bedankt Fred Jan, Op XS4ALL vond ik 1 manual die ik nog niet had (VDU). Theo's website had ik al "gemelkt" :-) Bedankt voor de hulp Groeten Nico On 2019-10-27 18:39, Fred Jan Kraan via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Some manuals are available at: > > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/doc/index.html > > There is a simulator (and more manuals) at: > > http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/p800sim.html > > Greetings, > > Fred Jan > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 28 03:37:45 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 09:37:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, nico de jong wrote: >> As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the P850, >> the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual (alas >> without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for >> things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk system, >> etc. [...] > In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler for the > P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I have no > documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from the documents > you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them first? I have the P856M/P857M service manual online (actually for 11 years now ;-) ) It's the first hit from Google if you search for it. This manual includes detailed description of the CPU, including the I/O processor (appendix B), the MMU (appendix C) and the FPP (appendix D). Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 28 03:43:47 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 09:43:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: <3d81f5c9-a334-b46d-277e-8f9cd83a7ac6@farumdata.dk> References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <3d81f5c9-a334-b46d-277e-8f9cd83a7ac6@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, nico de jong wrote: > Then you could generate turnkey systems, where the "operating system" could > be floppy or cassette (ECMA34) based, > > Turnkey systems typically controlled process equipment and the like, where > operator intervention was very limited, normally limited to pushing a few > buttons on an operator panel, or to load new programs. I do have a bunch of floppies for whatever P800 series machine, but none of them seem to run or boot on our machine. The images are also on our FTP server along with the service manual. Maybe you can use them in some manner. Christian From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 28 04:22:42 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:22:42 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <85bddcb2-1534-3065-fcbc-175132dbeb68@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On 2019-10-28 09:37, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 26 Oct 2019, nico de jong wrote: >>> As for documentation I have the CPU (only) technical manual for the >>> P850, >>> the 2 volumes of schematics for the P851 and the preliminary manual >>> (alas >>> without the microcode source) for the P854. Some other schematics for >>> things like the P854's PSU, the 4 channel serial port, floppy disk >>> system, etc. > [...] >> In order to test things, I've developped a simulator and assembler >> for the P857, although without floating point and I/O processor, as I >> have no documentation for that, so maybe I can harvest something from >> the documents you have. Are the mailable, or do you need to scan them >> first? > > I have the P856M/P857M service manual online (actually for 11 years > now ;-) ) > It's the first hit from Google if you search for it. > This manual includes detailed description of the CPU, including the > I/O processor (appendix B), the MMU (appendix C) and the FPP (appendix > D). > > Christian That depends on what you put in the search field. The first one I found, was my own manual on datamuseum.dk :-) Anyway, I found some other very interesting things on your page, such as the layout of the SSSD floppy, so my wiki will benefit of some serious enhancements Thanks Nico From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Oct 28 05:11:29 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 04:11:29 -0600 Subject: Can't contact Dave McGuire AK4HZ In-Reply-To: References: <5DB4641A.5060701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 3:42 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/26/19 10:19 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > Dave McQuire keeps emailing me about the CAMAC controller boards, but he > > obviously is not getting my replies. > > Anybody know how to contact him? > > FYI I just threw him a message on facebook letting him know, although it's > not saying that he's actually read it yet. > > About the only thing more unreliable than email these days is facebook's > message system ;-) > If you didn't want him to get the message, there's always the option of leaving him voicemail. Warner cheers > > Jules > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Oct 28 05:37:49 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:37:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ck703 - ge g11 first transistor -- prototypes of first bell transistors pt contact and grown junction and solar cells and more and mroe and more References: <1564528479.1234730.1572259069037.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1564528479.1234730.1572259069037@mail.yahoo.com> ck703 -? sylvania first sold transistor? ge g11 ge's? first transistor -- prototypes of first? ever produced bell transistors pt contact and grown junction and solar cells drop me a note OFFLIST t many many treasures? including ingots, slabs, slices and? steps? of? item manufacture?Any one interested in these to accompany your commuter collection???? ==thanks highest? and best use a plus? drop me a note OFFLIST thanks e# From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 28 07:05:21 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:05:21 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <3d81f5c9-a334-b46d-277e-8f9cd83a7ac6@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <620196b7-9195-07ed-6e8d-7d3605c1a7e0@farumdata.dk> On 2019-10-28 09:43, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, nico de jong wrote: >> Then you could generate turnkey systems, where the "operating system" >> could be floppy or cassette (ECMA34) based, >> >> Turnkey systems typically controlled process equipment and the like, >> where operator intervention was very limited, normally limited to >> pushing a few buttons on an operator panel, or to load new programs. > > I do have a bunch of floppies for whatever P800 series machine, but > none of them seem to run or boot on our machine. The images are also > on our FTP server along with the service manual. Maybe you can use > them in some manner. > > Christian Seems like a nice little project for the coming winter. I'll download the floppies, and see what they are, to start with Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 28 08:17:37 2019 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:17:37 +0100 Subject: Philips mini computers In-Reply-To: References: <28b140f6-2776-0c05-3587-6aa5926e5288@farumdata.dk> <3d81f5c9-a334-b46d-277e-8f9cd83a7ac6@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: On 2019-10-28 09:43, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 27 Oct 2019, nico de jong wrote: >> Then you could generate turnkey systems, where the "operating system" >> could be floppy or cassette (ECMA34) based, >> >> Turnkey systems typically controlled process equipment and the like, >> where operator intervention was very limited, normally limited to >> pushing a few buttons on an operator panel, or to load new programs. > > I do have a bunch of floppies for whatever P800 series machine, but > none of them seem to run or boot on our machine. The images are also > on our FTP server along with the service manual. Maybe you can use > them in some manner. > > Christian I had a quick look at 6_0.bin. It has a normal layout, 1 boot sector to start with, 1 user, 3 files. two of which are Load Modules (= programs), the last one is a textfile with paramters etc. The program seems to be for testing something, accordng to the texts? I found. My guess is that the user communication is to and from a Teletype ASR or Philips PER3100 operator console or similar. Could I talk you into zipping the contents of that directory and mail it to me, or save it as one zip file in that directory? Nico From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 28 10:11:49 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Coleco & Atari In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > old? 1983. Coleco ADAM, my favourite, and Atari 600XL, not so much. I still > have my ADAM. No not why. But isn?t this why we all belong to classiccomp. And > $600. How quaint! BTW(sorry), it had an update on CP/M called CP/M Plus. > Gosh, I miss those old days. Oh man, the Atari 8bit is second to the Adam? IIRC the 800XL and Floppy Drive cost less than the Coleco Adam kit. You didn't get a daisy wheel printer, but you got better sound and a much larger library. I grew up on the ColecoVision, neighbor had the Atari 5200. I used to say the ColecoVision was better when younger but now I have to say I think the Atari 5200 is better. Have yet to own an Adam, but I always thought of the Adam as something of a failure? There was a large number of them that shipped DOA or close to DOA as well due to power supply issue (in the printer) ? - Ethan From tsraguso at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 10:28:03 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:28:03 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation Message-ID: This is a picture of the IBM 4505 display station. https://photos.app.goo.gl/iQXPGLS8zdD3JHyF8 Thomas Raguso From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 28 10:41:09 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:41:09 -0500 Subject: Can't contact Dave McGuire AK4HZ In-Reply-To: References: <5DB4641A.5060701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5DB70C15.7040904@pico-systems.com> On 10/28/2019 05:11 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > If you didn't want him to get the message, there's always > the option of leaving him voicemail. Warner cheers All taken care of, now. I don't know why he wasn't getting my replies. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 11:52:46 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:52:46 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, not the thing I thought it was. -- Will On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 11:28 AM Thomas Raguso via cctalk wrote: > > This is a picture of the IBM 4505 display station. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/iQXPGLS8zdD3JHyF8 > > Thomas Raguso From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Oct 28 11:35:52 2019 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 16:35:52 -0000 Subject: IBM 2321 Data Cell Message-ID: <06a601d58dad$c3ad49b0$4b07dd10$@vanpeborgh.eu> Hello again everyone! This is my regular visit to CCTECH trying to find an example (or two) of this weird and wonderful piece of IBM mass storage for my ancient computer collection. For a description, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell . Hope springs eternal, thank you for your patience, peter From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 13:46:27 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:46:27 +0000 Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript Message-ID: Hi folks, An interesting article on adafruit about the digitalisation (hem) of the original hand drawn DEC logo, including the PS file itself - https://blog.adafruit.com/2019/10/28/the-digital-equipment-corporation-dec-logo-ancient-digitalization-found-dec-logo-nedbat/ This news must have done the rounds back in 2007 though, because I have the file in question (declogo17.ps) on my Mac already?hmm... Cheers, -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From tingox at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 16:29:53 2019 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:29:53 +0100 Subject: a bunch of decus pdp-8 writups In-Reply-To: <55c478d8-a100-fdce-2354-153c8f1567a7@bitsavers.org> References: <55c478d8-a100-fdce-2354-153c8f1567a7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 2:36 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > and whoever is doing it assumes storage is free > they are on the order of 800 mb EACH Seems to be because they added "SINGLE PAGE PROCESSED JP2 ZIP " as one of the formats. The other formats (PDF, epuf, etc) seems to be of a much smaller size. No, I don't know what this huge format is good for. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 23:33:31 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:33:31 -0500 Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:46 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > This news must have done the rounds back in 2007 though, because I have the file in question (declogo17.ps) on my Mac already?hmm... 2007 is about right: https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200712/ancient_history_the_digital_logo.html From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Oct 28 14:14:27 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:14:27 +0000 Subject: IBM 1500 [was RE: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation] Message-ID: <9ea134abe99c48ef86e701d68d882370@livingcomputers.org> From: William Donzelli Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:45 PM > PICTURES! PICTURES! PICTURES! >> I have been unable to find anything about the 4505 display station. Does >> anyone know any details about this item? It resembles an IBM 2260, but the >> keyboard is not built-in, as in the 2260. > I think it may be for an IBM 1500, the educational system based on an 1130. The 1500 I worked with at the University of Texas School of Education was based on an 1800 (which is of course the same architecture as the 1130, but in highboy industrial cabinetry rather than a desk. Coursewriter II and APL\1500 for the educational software, FORTRAN II and assembler for background tasks. Rich From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 08:15:17 2019 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:15:17 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today Message-ID: The first inter-computer communication happened 50 years ago today. L. Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here, ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each other remotely. He sent ?LO? because the system crashed(how surprising was that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net. Happy computing all! Murray ? Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 29 09:12:51 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > The first inter-computer communication happened 50 years ago today. L. > Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here, > ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each > other remotely. He sent ?LO? because the system crashed(how surprising was > that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net. > > Happy computing all! You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 09:20:43 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:20:43 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer > communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each > other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems. "First" is a dangerous word, isn't it? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 09:23:13 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:23:13 -0400 Subject: IBM 1500 [was RE: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation] In-Reply-To: <9ea134abe99c48ef86e701d68d882370@livingcomputers.org> References: <9ea134abe99c48ef86e701d68d882370@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: > The 1500 I worked with at the University of Texas School of Education was based > on an 1800 (which is of course the same architecture as the 1130, but in highboy > industrial cabinetry rather than a desk. Coursewriter II and APL\1500 for the > educational software, FORTRAN II and assembler for background tasks. I think most were 1130 (1131 to be more precise) based, but a few were indeed 1800. Not sure why - maybe larger installations? -- Will From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Oct 29 09:45:37 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:45:37 +0100 Subject: And yet another batch of IBM big iron one Ebay Germany.. Message-ID: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> an IBM 4331 for 1000 Euro b.i.n. seems OK to me, if I was in that sort of thing ! See? https://www.ebay.de/itm/IBM-grosrechner/184010116585 and his other offerings... Jos From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 29 10:27:19 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:27:19 -0500 Subject: And yet another batch of IBM big iron one Ebay Germany.. In-Reply-To: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> On 10/29/2019 09:45 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > > > an IBM 4331 for 1000 Euro b.i.n. seems OK to me, if I was > in that sort of thing ! > > See https://www.ebay.de/itm/IBM-grosrechner/184010116585 > and his other offerings... > WOW, this is some amazing stuff he has! Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 10:28:47 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:28:47 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 10:21 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer > > communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each > > other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems. > > "First" is a dangerous word, isn't it? > > -- > Will > I wonder who said that first. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 11:28:25 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 12:28:25 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi all! Re-subscribing to this list after a 20+ year "vacation" while raising kids. I was pretty active in the Dec pdp10, pdp11, and pdp8 communities back in the 80's and managed to acquire a lot of "stuff". Now that I have some time and space again I'm looking back into the pile of "high mass hobbies" and wondering what still works. In terms of communities I see the pdp8-lovers list is still going but I can't seem to find the pdp11 email list anymore. If anyone can add me I'd appreciate. On to the technical issues: I currently am trying to bring back online a PDT11/150 and my main Q-Bus pdp11/73. The 11/150 is trying to boot but it looks like my old disk with RT11 5.1 and the PD: boot driver is no longer working. Does anyone have a copy of RT11 5.1 source disks they can loan me (I can't find my set). The 11/73 is a bit more interesting: It's an 11/73 quad height CPU, 4mb of ram on a single DEC Q bus card, and for storage has an MTI ESDI controller hooked up to a Fujitsu ESDI drive. After some workings I was able to get the controller back online (hint: The password to get into the controller to make changes is MTI) and while I can boot RT11 off one of the two partitions my RSX11M 4.0 generated instance is flunking with a boot error. Probably some disk rot. I also have a RLV12 controller in it and a pair of RL02's sitting in a closet here that I can drag upstairs with RSX111M 4.1 on them. Better than nothing and might allow me to boot up and possibly run a disk repair/regenerate the boot code on the EDSI disk. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin cable work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? Anything special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the bulkhead and the RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 give me not yet ready. Ultimately I would like to format one of my MFM Maxtor drives as a RD54, then install MicroRSX and MicroRSTS from floppy. For the big ESDI drive I'd be happy getting that upgraded to RSX11M+ if I can find install media and running it as a serious system. I also have TK70's, and a couple of other oddball things here including all the parts for BLT.AI.MIT.EDU (Sometimes called LSD), a RM80, an RX02 with a RXV11 controller, and a bunch of other weird stuff. Anyway, will be interesting to see if I can get these going. If I can get the 73 running the next step would be to get the 11/24 up and going, then start working on the 2020... CZ On 10/29/2019 11:27 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/29/2019 09:45 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> an IBM 4331 for 1000 Euro b.i.n. seems OK to me, if I was in that sort >> of thing ! >> >> See? https://www.ebay.de/itm/IBM-grosrechner/184010116585 and his >> other offerings... >> > WOW, this is some amazing stuff he has! > > Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 11:31:53 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:31:53 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> On 10/29/19 6:15 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > The first inter-computer communication happened 50 years ago today. L. > Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here, > ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each > other remotely. He sent ?LO? because the system crashed(how surprising was > that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net. 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. Maybe you've got a digit wrong? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 11:38:27 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 09:38:27 -0700 Subject: IBM 1500 [was RE: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation] In-Reply-To: <9ea134abe99c48ef86e701d68d882370@livingcomputers.org> References: <9ea134abe99c48ef86e701d68d882370@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <58968735-849e-b880-6a92-feba0e86f642@sydex.com> On 10/28/19 12:14 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > The 1500 I worked with at the University of Texas School of Education was based > on an 1800 (which is of course the same architecture as the 1130, but in highboy > industrial cabinetry rather than a desk. Coursewriter II and APL\1500 for the > educational software, FORTRAN II and assembler for background tasks. I recall that Standard Oil in Whiting, IN conducted on-site classes for local high-school students on their 1800. This was about 1967 or so. Wasn't the 1800 introduced slightly before the 1130? I seem to remember something about that. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 12:00:59 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:00:59 +0100 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was > a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. > > Maybe you've got a digit wrong? Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. It's also in multiple computer news stories today. The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a standardised protocol (IP, I think). Quit splitting hairs, folks. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 12:15:28 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:15:28 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/10/2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote (in part): > The first inter-computer communication happened 50 years ago today. L. > Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here, > ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each > other remotely. He sent ?LO? because the system crashed(how surprising was > that!) According to "Where Wizards stay up late", the FEP crashed because of an "optimization" that stuffed "gin" into the buffer faster than the FEP could handle it. N. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 12:41:27 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:41:27 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 12:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all! > > Re-subscribing to this list after a 20+ year "vacation" while raising > kids. I was pretty active in the Dec pdp10, pdp11, and pdp8 communities > back in the 80's and managed to acquire a lot of "stuff". Now that I > have some time and space again I'm looking back into the pile of "high > mass hobbies" and wondering what still works. > > Where are you located? Bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 29 12:48:13 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 17:48:13 -0000 Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <030901d58e81$0a7ff120$1f7fd360$@ntlworld.com> I know next to nothing about PostScript and fonts, is it possible to convert this to a font that can be installed on Windows? I found a site that says it converts it (convertio.co), but I am suspicious of free sites like that. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jason T via cctalk > Sent: 29 October 2019 04:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Original DEC logo in PostScript > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:46 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: > > This news must have done the rounds back in 2007 though, because I have > the file in question (declogo17.ps) on my Mac already?hmm... > > 2007 is about right: > > https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/200712/ancient_history_the_digital_logo.h > tml From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 13:15:57 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:15:57 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <05847FF9-AB2B-463A-A085-A2BD1646FC47@alembic.crystel.com> Maryland On October 29, 2019 1:41:27 PM EDT, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 12:28 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi all! >> >> Re-subscribing to this list after a 20+ year "vacation" while raising >> kids. I was pretty active in the Dec pdp10, pdp11, and pdp8 >communities >> back in the 80's and managed to acquire a lot of "stuff". Now that I >> have some time and space again I'm looking back into the pile of >"high >> mass hobbies" and wondering what still works. >> >> > > >Where are you located? >Bill -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 29 13:13:57 2019 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:13:57 +0000 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 29/10/2019 16:28, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the > ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way > all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin cable > work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? Anything > special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the bulkhead and the > RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 give me not yet ready. Welcome back! No, there's nothing special about either the 50-way ribbon cable or the 34-way ribbon cable. Just don't use a PC-style floppy cable with a twist in it. DEC did it the way God (and Alan Shugart) intended. But which distribution bulkhead have you got? I assume not an M9058, because that's a card with lots of options that goes in a Q-bus backplane and wants jumpers setting. Either way, you might find this file helpful if you want to work out what's going where: http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/RQDXn_pinout.pdf and maybe even a glance at this one: http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/M9058_schematic.pdf because it shows the relationship between the connectors and the signals a bit better. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 29 13:50:31 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:50:31 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: <05847FF9-AB2B-463A-A085-A2BD1646FC47@alembic.crystel.com> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> <05847FF9-AB2B-463A-A085-A2BD1646FC47@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0e7a01d58e89$bdb83f10$3928bd30$@verizon.net> Chris Zach wrote: > Maryland I'm in Maryland, but not much into dec. You may remember David Gesswein, he's here in MD as well. The MARCH group is technically in New Jersey, but most of us down here belong to that as well. Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 29 13:53:50 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 14:53:50 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote > 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was > a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. > > Maybe you've got a digit wrong? 500 years ago? A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings? -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 29 14:11:08 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:11:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: <198915844.1813591.1572376268382@mail.yahoo.com> I will have to see if our? old next? boots!? -Ed# In a message dated 10/29/2019 10:01:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. It's also in multiple computer news stories today. The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a standardised protocol (IP, I think From w9gb at icloud.com Tue Oct 29 13:21:40 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:21:40 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] First transistors Message-ID: Jack Ward would be happy to include in the museum collection. http://semiconductormuseum.com/Museum_Index.htm Helped Jack over a decade ago, to document the usage of transistors in Explorer I. He did oral history interview with Dr. George Ludwig before he passed in 2013. http://semiconductormuseum.com/Museum_Index.htm#ORAL_HISTORIES gb From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Oct 29 13:39:08 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:39:08 +0000 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8c2405fe33ba48aca1a476123126cbcc@livingcomputers.org> From: Liam Proven Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:01 AM > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was >> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. >> Maybe you've got a digit wrong? > Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet > packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. > It's also in multiple computer news stories today. > The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a > standardised protocol (IP, I think). Internet Protocol (IP) was developed in the very late 1970s, with the cutover of the ARPANET taking place 1/1/83. Prior to that, the underlying protocol was the one developed by Kleinrock et al. for the BBN IMP hardware. > Quit splitting hairs, folks. New to this list, are you? Rich From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 16:27:09 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 17:27:09 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/19 2:13 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 29/10/2019 16:28, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the >> ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way >> all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin >> cable work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? >> Anything special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the >> bulkhead and the RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 >> give me not yet ready. > > Welcome back! > I assume your building up a Qbus PDP-11. To go from RQDX3 to any drive you need a distrbution panel as used in BA23 or M9058 distribution board usually used in BA123. The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not past interrupt or DMA grant. Bottom/end of the bus is fine. Then you need a 50 wide cable from RQDX3 to the distribution board and the cable to match floppy from the distribution board (usually 34 wide). FYI that combo works with RX50, RX33 (teac FD55GFR) , and RX23 (3.5" floppy). The most desirable drive is the RX33 as it stores more and faster plus makes it easier to write a disk from a PC. Jumper details are up to you to slug out but I have two systems using the RQDX3 and M9058. I also have the Micro PDP-11 using the ba23 distribution. Don't ask right now I can not get to them for the next month. Drive jumpers have to be correct. If the cables are upside down you break nothing but noting works. Hint flip only one end! All of this is in the various manuals but no single one! Allisonn From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 17:43:13 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:43:13 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <77b87e19-b896-a2b0-8ffa-899c2452d8b2@sydex.com> On 10/29/19 11:53 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote >> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was >> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. >> >> Maybe you've got a digit wrong? > > 500 years ago? A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings? I wonder if computer-to-computer connection dates back 70 years. (5->7) Same number digits, just one of them changed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 17:47:02 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:47:02 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <8c2405fe33ba48aca1a476123126cbcc@livingcomputers.org> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <8c2405fe33ba48aca1a476123126cbcc@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <6a422be9-a695-4883-24bd-9e0dd715eb8a@sydex.com> On 10/29/19 11:39 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > New to this list, are you? > EVERYONE knows that Steve Jobs invented the microcomputer and Nikola Tesla invented alternating current. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 17:44:13 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 15:44:13 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <198915844.1813591.1572376268382@mail.yahoo.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <198915844.1813591.1572376268382@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 10/29/19 12:11 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a > standardised protocol (IP, I think So, more properly--50 years of IP? --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 16:13:50 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:13:50 +0000 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <198915844.1813591.1572376268382@mail.yahoo.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> , <198915844.1813591.1572376268382@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Until recently, a computer was a person that did calculations. I suspect that if they we smart enough to do the calculations they were smart enough to talk to each other. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 12:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 50 yrs. ago today I will have to see if our old next boots! -Ed# In a message dated 10/29/2019 10:01:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. It's also in multiple computer news stories today. The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a standardised protocol (IP, I think From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 14:40:19 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 12:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: > The first inter-computer communication happened 50 years ago today. L. > Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here, > ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each > other remotely. He sent ~@~\LO~@~] because the system crashed(how surprising was > that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net. On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet > packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. > It's also in multiple computer news stories today. > The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a > standardised protocol (IP, I think). > Quit splitting hairs, folks. The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event. But, calling it "The first inter-computer communication" is comparable to saying that Columbus was the first to think that the world was round and discovered America, or that Ford invented the automobile, or that Bill Gates invented software or at least operating systems, or that Steve Jobs invented computers. Some may beg to differ, or point out that those are not accurate descriptions of the events. "First"s are usually expanded into things that they aren't, and almost always fail to acknowledge those less "famous" who were already doing it. OK, I claim to be the first to say "first" is a bogus way to describe any historical event. It is how non-historians fail to comprehend historians. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 18:19:13 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> Maybe you've got a digit wrong? On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > 500 years ago? A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings? It has been said that when more digits were needed, that two abaci were put together, . . . "a digit wrong" could also mean 60 or 70 instead of 50 There is nothing to indicate that the Antikythera had any communications capabilities. The first known documented use of "computer" in English is 400 years ago. In those days, it was somebody who computes. Now, it is something that computes. BUT, if we drop the English ethnocentricity, Pliny the elder said, "latitudo sane computetur", referring to computing the size of Asia. And from there, quite likely some unrecorded references to the "computers" doing the computing. Among people who compute[d], there was certainly communication. There must have been inter-computer communication, or where would little computers come from? The "first" commercial modem is stated as being 1962. But, there were plenty of computers directly connected to each other before that. None of the objections to "first inter computer communication" should diminish the importance of the "first packet of the internet". It was surely a moment of rejoicing when it finally worked. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 18:42:29 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:42:29 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <0e7b01d58e8a$346cbc30$9d463490$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 10/29/19 4:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > None of the objections to "first inter computer communication" should > diminish the importance of the "first packet of the internet".? It was > surely a moment of rejoicing when it finally worked. I suspect that the first inter-computer communication occurred during the 1930s or thereabouts when one Langley employee asked another if she'd like to have lunch. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 29 18:54:51 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:54:51 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> > On Oct 29, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event. Indeed. So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers" would probably be a good description. > But, calling it "The first inter-computer communication" is comparable to saying that Columbus was the first to think that the world was round and discovered America, or that Ford invented the automobile, or that Bill Gates invented software or at least operating systems, or that Steve Jobs invented computers. Certainly multiple computers were interconnected quite some time before, at least within a room. Multi-mainframe computers such as CDC 6000 series, not to mention CPU to PPU in those same machines. Large computers with smaller ones as communication front ends going back at least to the mid 1960s (EL-X8 with PDP-8 front end, "Wammes" timesharing system). And so on. > ... > "First"s are usually expanded into things that they aren't, and almost always fail to acknowledge those less "famous" who were already doing it. > > OK, I claim to be the first to say "first" is a bogus way to describe any historical event. It is how non-historians fail to comprehend historians. I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers. Columbus is a good example, because it's well known that other Europeans traveled to America quite some time before he did. However, those earlier visits made no lasting impression on history, while the one Columbus made did. There are other examples. I'm playing with one right now, the invention of FM. Usually attributed to Edwin Armstrong, who indeed was first in the way Columbus was. But a different system for sending FM was invented in 1919 in Holland and used for 5 years for a commercial broadcasting station. That particular system then disappeared and was never used again. But it was first in the same sense that the Vikings were first to America. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 19:21:09 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event. On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Paul Koning wrote: > Indeed. So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers" would > probably be a good description. not so sure, . . . I think that there had been others. BUT, first with the IP protocol, . . . > I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers. > Columbus is a good example, because it's well known that other Europeans > traveled to America quite some time before he did. However, those > earlier visits made no lasting impression on history, while the one > Columbus made did. so, . . . "first" means earliest that WE are aware of, . . . "first" means the one that our schoolbooks talk about, . . . Being in the history books may mean "most important", but not "first"; the textbooks in the schools are astonishingly inaccurate. And, yes, some of them are going to say that Steve Jobs invented computers. > But it was first in the same sense that the Vikings were first to > America. There were some Asians? quite a bit earlier. The residents did not evolve here. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 19:37:44 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:37:44 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I assume your building up a Qbus PDP-11. Yup. They're easier to get going for starters and since I got rid of the 11/44 the fastest system I've got. > To go from RQDX3 to any drive you need a distrbution panel as used in > BA23 or M9058 distribution board usually used in BA123. Yup, got one of those in the BA23. Oh, are the floppies DU0/DU1 with the disk drive DU2 or is it different? > The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not > past interrupt or DMA grant. Bottom/end of the bus is fine. Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? > Then you need a 50 wide cable from RQDX3 to the distribution board and > the cable to match floppy from the distribution board (usually 34 wide). Got that. The floppy cable I have has a twist between the second and third plugs, but I'm using the straight section only. > Jumper details are up to you to slug out but I have two systems using > the RQDX3 and M9058. I also have the Micro PDP-11 using the ba23 > distribution. Don't ask right now I can not get to them for the next > month. Drive jumpers have to be correct. For the RX50's were there any jumpers? If I'm still fiddling with this in a month I might ask for a pic of the configuration. > All of this is in the various manuals but no single one! The RQDX3 was kind of out of my price zone the last time I worked on this stuff. The ESDI controller is extremely fast (and does elevator seeks so it rocks on RSX11) but doesn't have floppy support. I'll see if I can dig out/find any of my RQDX1 boards to cross-check the RQDX3. Any of them should be able to run a RX50 (and lord be told I have RD52 and RD53 drives around here....) \ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 19:38:35 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:38:35 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: <0e7a01d58e89$bdb83f10$3928bd30$@verizon.net> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> <05847FF9-AB2B-463A-A085-A2BD1646FC47@alembic.crystel.com> <0e7a01d58e89$bdb83f10$3928bd30$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Oh yes. If you could drop David an email with my email I'd appreciate it. C On 10/29/2019 2:50 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Chris Zach wrote: > >> Maryland > > I'm in Maryland, but not much into dec. You may remember David Gesswein, he's here in MD as well. The MARCH group is technically in New Jersey, but most of us down here belong to that as well. > > Bill S. > > > From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Oct 29 19:50:51 2019 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:50:51 -0300 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years ago: > https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/ The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history. -- Jecel From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Oct 29 20:34:51 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:34:51 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 29/10/2019 20:37, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not >> past interrupt or DMA grant.? Bottom/end of the bus is fine. > > Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use > interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? > RQDX1 and 2 did not pass them but used them. (Maybe not NPG)? I believe the RQDX3 did, however. Nigel Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 20:38:45 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:38:45 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6cb14026-7e50-0b32-4c36-e2e10543c1c7@alembic.crystel.com> Oh the 9058 is the "Q Bus" card with the 50 pin breakout to 34 pin and 20 pin lines for the various drives. That's not the RQDX3, and I don't need that since I have the BA23 with a bulkhead connector. And yes, I do remember nothing could be after a RQDX1 or 2 so they had to be in the last unused slot on the box with a grant card needed if the slot above and to the right was open. They do use DMA/NPG. Off to look up the jumper settings and see if this RQDX3 is configured properly.... CZ On 10/29/2019 9:34 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > On 29/10/2019 20:37, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not >>> past interrupt or DMA grant.? Bottom/end of the bus is fine. >> >> Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use >> interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? >> > RQDX1 and 2 did not pass them but used them. (Maybe not NPG)? I believe > the RQDX3 did, however. > > Nigel > > > > Nigel Johnson > > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype:? TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route > from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable > by any number of system administrators along the way. > ?? Nigel Johnson > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to > print this message > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 20:53:21 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:53:21 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <966c3953-ae1e-64cc-7191-39c0578a9b30@gmail.com> On 10/29/19 9:34 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > On 29/10/2019 20:37, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not >>> past interrupt or DMA grant.? Bottom/end of the bus is fine. >> >> Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use >> interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? >> > RQDX1 and 2 did not pass them but used them. (Maybe not NPG)? I believe > the RQDX3 did, however. > > Nigel > Ok for the edification of all. The M9058 IS NOT the RQDX3 board, It is the breakout board used with The RQDX2 or 3. What the M9058 needs power for, it adds additional decodes to address up to 4 RD drives or 4 floppies, the total is four if mixed so the usual was 3 RDs and 1 floppy usually RX50 or later RX33. All RQDX3 pass grants, some later version RQDX2s pass grants. The RQDX3 with either breakout board can interface RD50 through RD54 MFM disks and RX50, RX33, as well as RX23 depending on revision level and system software. The RQDX2 is an earlier quad width and ther eare at least three versions (firmware and board revisions) will work with All of the RDs 50 through 54 but only RX50 and later RX33. How do I know? MicroVaxII in BA23 MicrovaxII/GPX in BA123 MicroPDP-11 in BA23 pedestal stand BA11 PDP-11/23 (with smaller ABCD backplane) BA11 PDP11/23B (18 slot backplane) BA11 PDP11/73 (18 slot backplane) All of winch have RQDX3 or late version RQDX2 (BA11 11/23) with the BA23 breakout board or M9058 (standard config is BA123). Not all of those are "supported configuration" but the docs describe them and the setup is straight forward. Allison > > > Nigel Johnson > > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype:? TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route > from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable > by any number of system administrators along the way. > ?? Nigel Johnson > > ??? Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to > print this message > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 21:14:19 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:14:19 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: <966c3953-ae1e-64cc-7191-39c0578a9b30@gmail.com> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> <966c3953-ae1e-64cc-7191-39c0578a9b30@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b3da481-3951-6fcf-11ed-25ecc4c74794@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, first hurdle is down. In reading the RQDX3 Controller Module Users Guide it shows that for a BA23 the 50 pin cable goes down under the Q bus chassis then loops straight up into the RQDX3. Which is impossible to do with a modern (hee hee!) 50 pin SCSI ribbon cable as the cable keys are set up so that it would not be possible to plug the cable into the RQDX3 without inverting it (Because DEC likes to sell their cables with upside-down keys). However 30 seconds with a flush cutting pliers allowed me to remove the cam/key from the cable connector and plug it into the RQDX3. System is now booting up off the floppy. Good step forward. I'll shut it down for now, and get a XXDP+ floppy from Ebay. That should allow me to format a Maxtor RD54 drive and get this thing up to steam. Bit of progress. Thanks all! :-) CZ On 10/29/2019 9:53 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 10/29/19 9:34 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 29/10/2019 20:37, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not >>>> past interrupt or DMA grant.? Bottom/end of the bus is fine. >>> >>> Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use >>> interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? >>> >> RQDX1 and 2 did not pass them but used them. (Maybe not NPG)? I believe >> the RQDX3 did, however. >> >> Nigel >> > > Ok for the edification of all. The M9058 IS NOT the RQDX3 board, > It is the breakout board used with The RQDX2 or 3. What the M9058 needs > power for, it adds additional decodes to address up to 4 RD drives > or 4 floppies, the total is four if mixed so the usual was 3 RDs and 1 > floppy usually RX50 or later RX33. > > All RQDX3 pass grants, some later version RQDX2s pass grants. > > The RQDX3 with either breakout board can interface RD50 through RD54 > MFM disks and RX50, RX33, as well as RX23 depending on revision level > and system software. > > The RQDX2 is an earlier quad width and ther eare at least three versions > (firmware and board revisions) will work with All of the RDs 50 through > 54 but only RX50 and later RX33. > > How do I know? > > MicroVaxII in BA23 > MicrovaxII/GPX in BA123 > MicroPDP-11 in BA23 pedestal stand > BA11 PDP-11/23 (with smaller ABCD backplane) > BA11 PDP11/23B (18 slot backplane) > BA11 PDP11/73 (18 slot backplane) > > All of winch have RQDX3 or late version RQDX2 (BA11 11/23) > with the BA23 breakout board or M9058 (standard config is BA123). > > Not all of those are "supported configuration" but the docs > describe them and the setup is straight forward. > > Allison > >> >> >> Nigel Johnson >> >> MSc., MIEEE >> VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> >> >> You can reach me by voice on Skype:? TILBURY2591 >> >> If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday >> >> This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route >> from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable >> by any number of system administrators along the way. >> ?? Nigel Johnson >> >> ??? Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to >> print this message >> >> >> > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 21:15:01 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:15:01 -0400 Subject: Estate sale Message-ID: This link was posted on an Atari forum. I noticed a PDP 8 faceplate, a UNIVAC keyboard, and some other seriously retro parts. Might want to Hit this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-n9AUXZAiVw0nvht-JhD4IN8DMZWrAW7YCsS7gvFaP8/edit?fbclid=IwAR0t9_X5i_qC_k0lRZUvNyRLBXi98wn-MCBF6gT7lX1qR4vSYrPVAkvwZJk Jeff From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 21:16:34 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:16:34 -0500 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I have a lot of the parts you might need. Please feel free to contact me off list Thanks, Paul On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all! > > Re-subscribing to this list after a 20+ year "vacation" while raising > kids. I was pretty active in the Dec pdp10, pdp11, and pdp8 communities > back in the 80's and managed to acquire a lot of "stuff". Now that I > have some time and space again I'm looking back into the pile of "high > mass hobbies" and wondering what still works. > > In terms of communities I see the pdp8-lovers list is still going but I > can't seem to find the pdp11 email list anymore. If anyone can add me > I'd appreciate. > > On to the technical issues: I currently am trying to bring back online a > PDT11/150 and my main Q-Bus pdp11/73. The 11/150 is trying to boot but > it looks like my old disk with RT11 5.1 and the PD: boot driver is no > longer working. Does anyone have a copy of RT11 5.1 source disks they > can loan me (I can't find my set). > > The 11/73 is a bit more interesting: It's an 11/73 quad height CPU, 4mb > of ram on a single DEC Q bus card, and for storage has an MTI ESDI > controller hooked up to a Fujitsu ESDI drive. After some workings I was > able to get the controller back online (hint: The password to get into > the controller to make changes is MTI) and while I can boot RT11 off one > of the two partitions my RSX11M 4.0 generated instance is flunking with > a boot error. Probably some disk rot. > > I also have a RLV12 controller in it and a pair of RL02's sitting in a > closet here that I can drag upstairs with RSX111M 4.1 on them. Better > than nothing and might allow me to boot up and possibly run a disk > repair/regenerate the boot code on the EDSI disk. But that's not the > real problem. > > The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the > ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way > all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin cable > work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? Anything > special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the bulkhead and the > RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 give me not yet ready. > > Ultimately I would like to format one of my MFM Maxtor drives as a RD54, > then install MicroRSX and MicroRSTS from floppy. For the big ESDI drive > I'd be happy getting that upgraded to RSX11M+ if I can find install > media and running it as a serious system. > > I also have TK70's, and a couple of other oddball things here including > all the parts for BLT.AI.MIT.EDU (Sometimes called LSD), a RM80, an RX02 > with a RXV11 controller, and a bunch of other weird stuff. > > Anyway, will be interesting to see if I can get these going. If I can > get the 73 running the next step would be to get the 11/24 up and going, > then start working on the 2020... > > CZ > > On 10/29/2019 11:27 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/29/2019 09:45 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >> an IBM 4331 for 1000 Euro b.i.n. seems OK to me, if I was in that sort > >> of thing ! > >> > >> See https://www.ebay.de/itm/IBM-grosrechner/184010116585 and his > >> other offerings... > >> > > WOW, this is some amazing stuff he has! > > > > Jon > From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 21:18:22 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:18:22 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8c287b5a-61a4-709c-7207-8d8c216fdc7a@gmail.com> On 10/29/19 8:37 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I assume your building up a Qbus PDP-11. > > Yup. They're easier to get going for starters and since I got rid of the > 11/44 the fastest system I've got. I like them for the many flavors of CPU and and possible configurations. I have a few really one of every possible base PDP-11 and a few MicroVax cpus. > >> To go from RQDX3 to any drive you need a distrbution panel as used in >> BA23 or M9058 distribution board usually used in BA123. > > Yup, got one of those in the BA23. Oh, are the floppies DU0/DU1 with the > disk drive DU2 or is it different? Memory test. Look up the standard jumpers. Should be in the MicroPDP-11 handbook or slipcase doc set. >> The M9058 can plug in to any general slot in Qbus for power and does not >> past interrupt or DMA grant.? Bottom/end of the bus is fine. > > Interesting, I didn't realize the RQDX series boards didn't use > interrupts or DMA. Does the CPU just poll them endlessly? Oh yes they do! The breakout board m9058 is a dumb beast. The RQDX3 is M7555. And yes you can put a RQDX3 and M9058 in a BA23 for a three drive system using half height drives (two st225 or st250 and a RX33). That is not documented but works just fine. >> Then you need a 50 wide cable from RQDX3 to the distribution board and >> the cable to match floppy from the distribution board (usually 34 wide). > > Got that. The floppy cable I have has a twist between the second and > third plugs, but I'm using the straight section only. The twisted cables are for PCs only the rest of the world never did that. Reason if you did it the normal way you could have up to four drives (but you had to setup the jumper/dip-switches) the twisted scheme maxed at 2 (no setup as both drive were the same). >> Jumper details are up to? you to slug out but I have two systems using >> the RQDX3 and M9058.? I also have the Micro PDP-11 using the ba23 >> distribution.?? Don't ask right now I can not get to them for the next >> month.? Drive jumpers have to be correct. > > For the RX50's were there any jumpers? If I'm still fiddling with this > in a month I might ask for a pic of the configuration. If no one played with the RX50s (and they actually work) it should be plug and play. About half the RX50s I see are not functional and that was more than 25 years ago and it cannot have gotten better. Ir you end up with a pile you can play mix and match and maybe get lucky. Yes I believe two of them one being drive select. Right now I can maybe touch them, open them up for PICs, your kidding. ;) I'm overhauling space (one 10x14 room) that has both lab, office and ham radio... and a 50" rack of PDP11/73, BA123 MicoVAXII, and 10 Microvax3100s of multiple flavors, 2 MV2000s (one to format media and the other runs ultrix 4.2) plus a few Linux PCs to do day to day stuff. Then there is the S100 collection. >> All of this is in the various manuals but no single one! > > The RQDX3 was kind of out of my price zone the last time I worked on > this stuff. The ESDI controller is extremely fast (and does elevator > seeks so it rocks on RSX11) but doesn't have floppy support. > > I'll see if I can dig out/find any of my RQDX1 boards to cross-check the > RQDX3. Any of them should be able to run a RX50 (and lord be told I have > RD52 and RD53 drives around here....) > \ RQDX1 is in compatable with RQDX3 formatted RD disks! best leave that one alone. I was lucky being both Ex-Digit (former dec) and in the immediate area so finding stuff years ago was easy and free. Long since dried up. best advice is get DOCs, as much and varied of the QBUS PDP-11 family and the various packaged systems as you can find or on line. Oh the nasty part, you will have to actually read them to find a lot of the details. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 29 21:19:22 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:19:22 -0700 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <30fe99f8-b7cb-2daf-2046-e27509a45ee7@sydex.com> On 10/29/19 5:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it > was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November > 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use > TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to > the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only > network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with > the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet > packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history. Doesn't AUTODIN precede ARPAnet by a few years? --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 29 21:21:07 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 02:21:07 +0000 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191030022106.GB23172@lonesome.com> Any hints about where in the world this is? mcl From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 21:27:35 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:27:35 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9cf85ad6-1896-84af-c4d9-c0236e10a554@gmail.com> On 10/29/19 8:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event. > > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Paul Koning wrote: >> Indeed.? So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers" >> would probably be a good description. > > not so sure, . . . I think that there had been others.? BUT, first with > the IP protocol, . . . Maybe so, likely UUCP first. IP networks were a thing that sorta grew as standard developed. Either way it was well before the late 70s. Also Aloha-net was when? I thought that was the first wide area network that also used radios for links. Generally "first" works if your specific enough. But in the old Arpanet days if you said that on a list and were incomplete or wrong you got your head handed to you upside down. Sometimes gently, maybe. ;-) Allison > >> I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers. >> Columbus is a good example, because it's well known that other >> Europeans traveled to America quite some time before he did.? However, >> those earlier visits made no lasting impression on history, while the >> one Columbus made did. > > so, . . . > "first" means earliest that WE are aware of, . . . "first" means the one > that our schoolbooks talk about, . . . Being in the history books may > mean "most important", but not "first"; the textbooks in the schools are > astonishingly inaccurate.? And, yes, some of them are going to say that > Steve Jobs invented computers. > >> But it was first in the same sense that the Vikings were first to >> America. > > There were some Asians? quite a bit earlier.? The residents did not > evolve here. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 29 21:31:06 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <30fe99f8-b7cb-2daf-2046-e27509a45ee7@sydex.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <30fe99f8-b7cb-2daf-2046-e27509a45ee7@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 10/29/19 5:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: >> The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it >> was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November >> 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use >> TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to >> the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only >> network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with >> the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet >> packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history. > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Doesn't AUTODIN precede ARPAnet by a few years? How did Licklider's "Intergalactic Network" fit in? And, was that a factor in Gary Kildall's choosing the name "Intergalactic Digital Research"? Or, was everything beyond what was current called "intergalactic"? From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 21:34:47 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:34:47 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> On 10/29/19 8:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years > ago: > >> https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/ > > The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it > was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November > 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use > TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to > the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only > network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with > the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet > packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history. > > -- Jecel > The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting. Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network period. By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast. And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets encapsulated using DECnet. A lot of DEC hardware was involved in the DARPA/Arpanet. The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war. The big explosion was WWW. Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV. Allison From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Oct 29 21:47:54 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:47:54 -0600 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <8c2405fe33ba48aca1a476123126cbcc@livingcomputers.org> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <8c2405fe33ba48aca1a476123126cbcc@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:38 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:01 AM > > > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > wrote: > > >> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was > >> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs. > > >> Maybe you've got a digit wrong? > > > Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet > > packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone. > > > It's also in multiple computer news stories today. > > > The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a > > standardised protocol (IP, I think). > > Internet Protocol (IP) was developed in the very late 1970s, with the > cutover > of the ARPANET taking place 1/1/83. > > Prior to that, the underlying protocol was the one developed by Kleinrock > et al. > for the BBN IMP hardware. > NCP was the immediate predecessor of TCP/IP. Was that the datagram format, more or less, 50 years ago? Warner > Quit splitting hairs, folks. > > New to this list, are you? > > Rich > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Oct 29 21:57:18 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 19:57:18 -0700 Subject: Estate sale -- Univac Terminal Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c99be70-2b72-a455-a4c6-cbbbdb7b1c50@jwsss.com> Someone really wanted a keyboard for a Univac Terminal in the last year, year and a half.? Added to subject line to maybe attract attention of who was searching. Someone in Europe though, IIRC? thanks Jim On 10/29/2019 7:15 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > This link was posted on an Atari forum. I noticed a PDP 8 faceplate, a > UNIVAC keyboard, and some other seriously retro parts. Might want to > > Hit this link: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-n9AUXZAiVw0nvht-JhD4IN8DMZWrAW7YCsS7gvFaP8/edit?fbclid=IwAR0t9_X5i_qC_k0lRZUvNyRLBXi98wn-MCBF6gT7lX1qR4vSYrPVAkvwZJk > > Jeff > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 29 22:11:52 2019 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:11:52 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi Paul! Pleasure to meet you. What kinds of things do you have? What I would love to do is get the latest versions of RSX11/M+ up and running. I have compiler licenses for Fortran77 and Cobol81, but only 11/M 4.1 and 4.0 media on RL02/01 packs. C On 10/29/2019 10:16 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I have a lot of the parts you might need. Please feel free to contact me > off list > > Thanks, Paul > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:28 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi all! >> >> Re-subscribing to this list after a 20+ year "vacation" while raising >> kids. I was pretty active in the Dec pdp10, pdp11, and pdp8 communities >> back in the 80's and managed to acquire a lot of "stuff". Now that I >> have some time and space again I'm looking back into the pile of "high >> mass hobbies" and wondering what still works. >> >> In terms of communities I see the pdp8-lovers list is still going but I >> can't seem to find the pdp11 email list anymore. If anyone can add me >> I'd appreciate. >> >> On to the technical issues: I currently am trying to bring back online a >> PDT11/150 and my main Q-Bus pdp11/73. The 11/150 is trying to boot but >> it looks like my old disk with RT11 5.1 and the PD: boot driver is no >> longer working. Does anyone have a copy of RT11 5.1 source disks they >> can loan me (I can't find my set). >> >> The 11/73 is a bit more interesting: It's an 11/73 quad height CPU, 4mb >> of ram on a single DEC Q bus card, and for storage has an MTI ESDI >> controller hooked up to a Fujitsu ESDI drive. After some workings I was >> able to get the controller back online (hint: The password to get into >> the controller to make changes is MTI) and while I can boot RT11 off one >> of the two partitions my RSX11M 4.0 generated instance is flunking with >> a boot error. Probably some disk rot. >> >> I also have a RLV12 controller in it and a pair of RL02's sitting in a >> closet here that I can drag upstairs with RSX111M 4.1 on them. Better >> than nothing and might allow me to boot up and possibly run a disk >> repair/regenerate the boot code on the EDSI disk. But that's not the >> real problem. >> >> The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the >> ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way >> all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin cable >> work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? Anything >> special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the bulkhead and the >> RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 give me not yet ready. >> >> Ultimately I would like to format one of my MFM Maxtor drives as a RD54, >> then install MicroRSX and MicroRSTS from floppy. For the big ESDI drive >> I'd be happy getting that upgraded to RSX11M+ if I can find install >> media and running it as a serious system. >> >> I also have TK70's, and a couple of other oddball things here including >> all the parts for BLT.AI.MIT.EDU (Sometimes called LSD), a RM80, an RX02 >> with a RXV11 controller, and a bunch of other weird stuff. >> >> Anyway, will be interesting to see if I can get these going. If I can >> get the 73 running the next step would be to get the 11/24 up and going, >> then start working on the 2020... >> >> CZ >> >> On 10/29/2019 11:27 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/29/2019 09:45 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> an IBM 4331 for 1000 Euro b.i.n. seems OK to me, if I was in that sort >>>> of thing ! >>>> >>>> See https://www.ebay.de/itm/IBM-grosrechner/184010116585 and his >>>> other offerings... >>>> >>> WOW, this is some amazing stuff he has! >>> >>> Jon >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 22:41:15 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:41:15 -0500 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:15 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > This link was posted on an Atari forum. I noticed a PDP 8 faceplate, a > UNIVAC keyboard, and some other seriously retro parts. Might want to > > Hit this link: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-n9AUXZAiVw0nvht-JhD4IN8DMZWrAW7YCsS7gvFaP8/edit?fbclid=IwAR0t9_X5i_qC_k0lRZUvNyRLBXi98wn-MCBF6gT7lX1qR4vSYrPVAkvwZJk Hopefully someone can snag that PDP-8/a faceplate. Those are not trivial to find. Vince Slyngstad had to make a repo because the originals are too scarce now. I already have one. I have to say that it's fun to watch but I haven't spent a lot of time punching the buttons. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 00:21:33 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 00:21:33 -0500 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know 8 items are getting harder to find, but I didn't know they were that hard to find. I think I still have a few of each kind around here. On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 10:41 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:15 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk > wrote: > > This link was posted on an Atari forum. I noticed a PDP 8 faceplate, a > > UNIVAC keyboard, and some other seriously retro parts. Might want to > > > > Hit this link: > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-n9AUXZAiVw0nvht-JhD4IN8DMZWrAW7YCsS7gvFaP8/edit?fbclid=IwAR0t9_X5i_qC_k0lRZUvNyRLBXi98wn-MCBF6gT7lX1qR4vSYrPVAkvwZJk > > Hopefully someone can snag that PDP-8/a faceplate. Those are not > trivial to find. Vince Slyngstad had to make a repo because the > originals are too scarce now. > > I already have one. I have to say that it's fun to watch but I > haven't spent a lot of time punching the buttons. > > -ethan > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 05:49:02 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 06:49:02 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network > period. comma, ignoring SNA. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 06:17:07 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:17:07 -0000 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05a401d58f13$9115e720$b341b560$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of William Donzelli > via cctalk > Sent: 30 October 2019 10:49 > To: allison via cctalk > Subject: Re: 50 yrs. ago today > > > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network > > period. > > comma, ignoring SNA. I am not so sure. Initially IBM's internal VNET network (and BITENT) didn't use SNA they used bisync RSCS (for mail and files) and bisync 3270 lines handled by PVM (Passthrough Virtual machine) Native SNA didn't come to VM until very late in the day.... > > -- > Will Dave From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 30 07:47:20 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:47:20 -0500 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: <20191030022106.GB23172@lonesome.com> References: <20191030022106.GB23172@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20191030125316.7E3BA27423@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:21 PM 10/29/2019, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: >Any hints about where in the world this is? (415) area code and 408 exchange is Novato, CA, just north of San Francisco. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 08:14:25 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:14:25 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: > comma, ignoring IBM. (correction) -- Will From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 30 08:34:02 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:34:02 -0400 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 29, 2019, at 10:15 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > This link was posted on an Atari forum. I noticed a PDP 8 faceplate, a > UNIVAC keyboard, and some other seriously retro parts. Might want to > > Hit this link: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-n9AUXZAiVw0nvht-JhD4IN8DMZWrAW7YCsS7gvFaP8/edit?fbclid=IwAR0t9_X5i_qC_k0lRZUvNyRLBXi98wn-MCBF6gT7lX1qR4vSYrPVAkvwZJk > > Jeff The Univac keyboard appears to be for a keypunch. I've seen keyboards that look just like that (same distinct keycap shape) in a Burroughs mainframe shop, circa 1974. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 30 08:37:53 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:37:53 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26FD4C54-BFB6-4825-9936-AE0166C0F68A@comcast.net> > On Oct 29, 2019, at 10:34 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/29/19 8:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: >> We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years >> ago: >> >>> https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/ >> >> The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it >> was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November >> 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use >> TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to >> the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only >> network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with >> the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet >> packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history. >> >> -- Jecel >> > > The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting. > > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network > period. By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast. > And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets > encapsulated using DECnet. A lot of DEC hardware was involved > in the DARPA/Arpanet. > > The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it > would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war. > The big explosion was WWW. > > Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come > to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV. And before DECnet learned to route (which came in Phase III) there was routing in Typeset-11 clusters. Those used the distance vector routing algorithm too, but it had nothing in common with DECnet other than the fact it used DMC-11s to communicate. As far as I know none of this has been preserved, unfortunately. paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 09:18:57 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:18:57 +0100 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 03:34, allison via cctalk wrote: > > The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting. Conceded. > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network > period. By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast. > And none of it used IP or NCP That's the _point_ here though, isn't it? Yes, old hands like list members here know that there were inter-computer networks before the ARPAnet. Yes, there were big WANs of DEC kit and IBM kit using DEC proprietary protocols and IBM proprietary protocols. There were also long-distance dial-up connections of all sorts but just carrying terminal traffic. They weren't network connections, computer-to-computer. They were terminal connections. All they carried was a single datastream. That is not the significance being discussed here, even if it's being discussed with the wrong terms. And yes, granted: > The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it > would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war. > The big explosion was WWW. But the core point here is that the WWW does not equal the Internet, and the Internet does not equal the WWW. The WWW is a 1990s thing, mid-1990s for most people outside academia, post-turn-of-the-century for public broadband. And to 99% of the world, even where I work in a technical company, the WWW *is the Internet*. My colleagues are all in their 20s and 30s and they do not distinguish the 2. The thought that there is a distinction is quite confusing to them. So they honestly believe that the Internet did not exist until the mid-1990s and it's about 25 years old. Their age. But the real Internet is twice as old as that, and it dates to the end of the 1960s. The internet is roughly contemporaneous with people walking on the Moon. Bickering about there being WANs before that, or larger proprietary networks, or how to define "the Internet" is counter-productive. It's not about networks. It's about one particular network, the first one that wasn't a proprietary single-vendor effort. > Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come > to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV. Absolutely yes. I deployed or worked with all of these and I prefer at least 1 of them to TCP/IP even now, working for a company that until very recently owned one of the 3 technologies in that list and owned my employers too. But it's not germane. We're not talking about corporate proprietary stuff, or we shouldn't be. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 10:20:57 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:20:57 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bc9ab7d-ce46-131c-7a39-d350f5f5fcfb@gmail.com> On 10/30/19 10:18 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 03:34, allison via cctalk wrote: > >> >> The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting. > > Conceded. > >> Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network >> period. By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast. >> And none of it used IP or NCP > > That's the _point_ here though, isn't it? I may be a but US centric but hey I lived her all my life... its what I know. Clearly if it was happening here it was world wide. I was fortunate to be an early Compuserve user and BBS user and I also remember packet radio (amateur). That that network was interconnected to Arpanet at that time (81 as I remember and likely earlier) is significant. I really liked that I could email to Valbone or Galway plants or just as easily the east coast and Japan facilities. And still be present on the bitnet, news, and other services and places as well. It was one of the few large backbone networks that had mixed traffic. at that time the interconnect and transport was mostly private but included portals. > Yes, old hands like list members here know that there were > inter-computer networks before the ARPAnet. > > Yes, there were big WANs of DEC kit and IBM kit using DEC proprietary > protocols and IBM proprietary protocols. There were also long-distance > dial-up connections of all sorts but just carrying terminal traffic. > They weren't network connections, computer-to-computer. They were > terminal connections. All they carried was a single datastream. > > That is not the significance being discussed here, even if it's being > discussed with the wrong terms. Not so, the whole of Arpanet was my computer calls your computer a few times a day and exchanges info/news/email as The "NETWORK" if any was telco or lease lines. That was [all of the above and more] before there was and significant backbone to "hook up to". The backbone is the internet as we know it. > > And yes, granted: > >> The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it >> would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war. >> The big explosion was WWW. > > But the core point here is that the WWW does not equal the Internet, > and the Internet does not equal the WWW. True but the point was WWW made the need for the network connectivity "The Internet" became a commodity thing not unlike the interstate highways. > The WWW is a 1990s thing, mid-1990s for most people outside academia, > post-turn-of-the-century for public broadband. > > And to 99% of the world, even where I work in a technical company, the > WWW *is the Internet*. My colleagues are all in their 20s and 30s and > they do not distinguish the 2. The thought that there is a distinction > is quite confusing to them. WWW is not the internet it is a good reason for one and maybe the worst utilization for one (opine). However it forced more connectivity which is what the internet is. Hence my usage... it can be found ON the internet, not in. > So they honestly believe that the Internet did not exist until the > mid-1990s and it's about 25 years old. Their age. It was around far longer before that as my first contact was in the late 70s. > But the real Internet is twice as old as that, and it dates to the end > of the 1960s. The internet is roughly contemporaneous with people > walking on the Moon. It is but access for the nonacademic or small company was much later in the 80s. Back then I investigate getting connected and was basically you needed to know someone at a Uni and get UUCP going. It was around then the SOURCE and Compuserve became visible and BBS started to be interconnected likely by dialup. > Bickering about there being WANs before that, or larger proprietary > networks, or how to define "the Internet" is counter-productive. True as the first WAN was telco! Much of what came later either relied on telco tech (ESS and T1 lines any one remember them?) or built on it. For many here in the use the Carterphone decision made interconnecting easier and competitive for products and other services. Back before the 80s I used to provide UHF repeater service and I remember using leased lines ("copper pairs" without equalization) for interconnect (analog) and the cost was not trivial and the available interconnect length was limited (miles). Those Arpanet and the like users had the finances to have leased lines or even privately installed lines to connect points in their reach. it was a driver to have a common network for traffic and of course rules for how the traffic was formed and routed. > It's not about networks. It's about one particular network, the first > one that wasn't a proprietary single-vendor effort. > >> Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come >> to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV. > > Absolutely yes. I deployed or worked with all of these and I prefer at > least 1 of them to TCP/IP even now, working for a company that until > very recently owned one of the 3 technologies in that list and owned > my employers too. Why I mentioned them. There were other some very limited like (M$)LANman, ad a bit of PTP stuff. I left out IBM by omission but they were also one of the big technology contributors of the day for backbone hardware and software. > But it's not germane. We're not talking about corporate proprietary > stuff, or we shouldn't be. We should as they were existent and ideas grew from them and for periods even depended on them. As a result a more open set of specifications emerged. That was a contrast to the Telcos(PTT) and private companies. Like I said far more complex and very interesting. Its why "first" has to be specific as its at most a snapshot of one place and time. Its also a result of something or many somethings that came before. Without the context it is just a nice but largely incomplete picture that invites the question, there must be more? With the bigger picture the wow factor is not diluted but enhanced. After all like most technologies how we got to that point is often a good story to tell. and where it leads to after that as well. To think, it all grew from people on hills with flags, mirrors, or fires trying to send messages faster and further than physical means like runners and horses. Allison From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Oct 30 10:29:29 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:29:29 -0400 Subject: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back In-Reply-To: <8b3da481-3951-6fcf-11ed-25ecc4c74794@alembic.crystel.com> References: <76eb0aa9-ff80-55de-194a-1108136eb078@greenmail.ch> <5DB85A57.3090602@pico-systems.com> <966c3953-ae1e-64cc-7191-39c0578a9b30@gmail.com> <8b3da481-3951-6fcf-11ed-25ecc4c74794@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <75e394dc-29d9-b59b-3bdd-ce0a3c41a7b4@comcast.net> On 10/29/2019 10:14 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, first hurdle is down. In reading the RQDX3 Controller Module Users > Guide it shows that for a BA23 the 50 pin cable goes down under the Q > bus chassis then loops straight up into the RQDX3. Which is impossible > to do with a modern (hee hee!) 50 pin SCSI ribbon cable as the cable > keys are set up so that it would not be possible to plug the cable > into the RQDX3 without inverting it (Because DEC likes to sell their > cables with upside-down keys). However 30 seconds with a flush cutting > pliers allowed me to remove the cam/key from the cable connector and > plug it into the RQDX3. > > System is now booting up off the floppy. Good step forward. I'll shut > it down for now, and get a XXDP+ floppy from Ebay. That should allow > me to format a Maxtor RD54 drive and get this thing up to steam. > > Bit of progress. Thanks all! :-) > > CZ I created an XXDP floppy for the RX33 drive in my BA23 based PDP-11/23 using simh and then copying the image to real floppy using Putr.? It seemed brute force.? Is there an easier way? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 30 10:48:39 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 08:48:39 -0700 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9df1d35b-153b-90e7-83de-5ec5431bb430@sydex.com> On 10/30/19 6:34 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > The Univac keyboard appears to be for a keypunch. I've seen keyboards that look just like that (same distinct keycap shape) in a Burroughs mainframe shop, circa 1974. I've used one of the Univac keypunches when the 029 was still the workhorse. Interesting in that you entered the data for a whole card, then punched it all at once. I didn't much care for it as it lacked the resounding "clunk" of the 029 as you typed. In the case of the one I used, it was used as a remote punch/reader for a CDC 1700 setup. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 10:51:31 2019 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:51:31 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 61, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Ethan O'Toole" > To: Murray McCullough , "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Coleco & Atari > > old? 1983. Coleco ADAM, my favourite, and Atari 600XL, not so much. I > still > > have my ADAM. No not why. But isn?t this why we all belong to > classiccomp. And > > $600. How quaint! BTW(sorry), it had an update on CP/M called CP/M Plus. > > Gosh, I miss those old days. > > Oh man, the Atari 8bit is second to the Adam? IIRC the 800XL and Floppy > Drive cost less than the Coleco Adam kit. You didn't get a daisy wheel > printer, but you got better sound and a much larger library. > > I grew up on the ColecoVision, neighbor had the Atari 5200. I used to say > the ColecoVision was better when younger but now I have to say I think the > Atari 5200 is better. > > Have yet to own an Adam, but I always thought of the Adam as something of > a failure? There was a large number of them that shipped DOA or close to > DOA as well due to power supply issue (in the printer) ? > > > The ADAM was a well-designed system with a great set of launch software hobbled by a rollout/gamble for the Christmas buying season that didn't pay off. If they had a proper release to work out the manufacturing issues they would have been a lot more successful I think. Nevertheless, any system in the wild you come across should work just as well as any other vintage machine by this time. It's my favorite machine pre-Amiga/ST/IIgs/Mac. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Oct 30 11:23:31 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:23:31 +0100 Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: <20191030022106.GB23172@lonesome.com> References: <20191030022106.GB23172@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20191030162331.GA20335@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 02:21:07AM +0000, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > Any hints about where in the world this is? Rule zero: if a location isn't given, it it almost certainly in the USA. Most Americans think that the world ends at the US border, so this is a very safe assumption. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 30 12:17:31 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:17:31 -0400 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <7bc9ab7d-ce46-131c-7a39-d350f5f5fcfb@gmail.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> <7bc9ab7d-ce46-131c-7a39-d350f5f5fcfb@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2019, at 11:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> But it's not germane. We're not talking about corporate proprietary >> stuff, or we shouldn't be. > > We should as they were existent and ideas grew from them and for periods > even depended on them. As a result a more open set of specifications > emerged. That was a contrast to the Telcos(PTT) and private companies. Note that there's closed, open, and standard. Closed as in "one company, others can't do this", open as in "defined by a company but anyone can implement this" (DECnet is an example) and standard (TCP/IP, OSI, Ethernet -- things agreed to by groups of separate and possibly competing organizations). About PTT/Telcos, two historic tidbits. In the 1980s DEC paid a contractor to string up private fiber between DEC buildings in New England, for use by its internal DECnet network (originally "the Engineering net"). It also built a number of satellite ground stations, for example in Littleton and Nashua. Unfortunately, I wasn't alert enough to ask if I could have one of those dishes when they were dismantled. In some countries, at least in the early 1980s (Sweden?) the law said that private organizations could run communication wires on a floor of a building, but to wire from one floor to another was the monopoly of the government PTT. So DEC Ethernet bridges had PTT approval stickers on them from those countries, indicating those PTTs would be willing to build you a bridged Ethernet from floor 1 to floor 2. > To think, it all grew from people on hills with flags, mirrors, or > fires trying to send messages faster and further than physical means > like runners and horses. > > Allison One might dust off Samuel Morse's comment: "What hath God wrought". paul From mark.tapley at swri.org Wed Oct 30 14:36:18 2019 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:36:18 +0000 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD Message-ID: All, my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and software, and, as usual, she pointed out that there?s an XKCD for that: https://xkcd.com/2221/ I found this remarkably accurate. - Mark From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 16:35:54 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:35:54 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:17 PM Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > All, > my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and software, > and, as usual, she pointed out that there?s an XKCD for that: > > https://xkcd.com/2221/ > > I found this remarkably accurate. > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete immediately. When the CPU executes an I/O instruction, the I/O is completed and the interrupt posted before the next instruction is executed. As the emulator was (at that point) single threaded, there was no performance reason to do otherwise, and delaying interrupt delivery was additional code that I didn't want to write and debug. The consensus in the Multics community was that this was *probably* OK; the interrupt structure was robust and the interrupt handling code well written, and should be able to cope. But everytime a runtime failure occured, the question popped up: is zero-latency I/O the issue? I ended up adding code to delay interrupt delivery as a run-time configuration option so that that possibility could be checked. The XKCD is dead on for me. I have had that conversation. -- Charles From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Oct 30 16:50:28 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:50:28 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> > On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > immediately. When the CPU executes an I/O instruction, the I/O is completed > and the interrupt posted before the next instruction is executed. As the > emulator was (at that point) single threaded, there was no performance > reason to do otherwise, and delaying interrupt delivery was additional code > that I didn't want to write and debug. The consensus in the Multics > community was that this was *probably* OK; the interrupt structure was > robust and the interrupt handling code well written, and should be able to > cope. But everytime a runtime failure occured, the question popped up: is > zero-latency I/O the issue? I ended up adding code to delay interrupt > delivery as a run-time configuration option so that that possibility could > be checked. > > The XKCD is dead on for me. I have had that conversation. > > -- Charles If you?re on this list, does this mean this is a good place to ask Multics questions? :-) Yes, I have a couple. Zane From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 17:50:06 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:50:06 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> References: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:50 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > > On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:35 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > > immediately. When the CPU executes an I/O instruction, the I/O is > completed > > and the interrupt posted before the next instruction is executed. As the > > emulator was (at that point) single threaded, there was no performance > > reason to do otherwise, and delaying interrupt delivery was additional > code > > that I didn't want to write and debug. The consensus in the Multics > > community was that this was *probably* OK; the interrupt structure was > > robust and the interrupt handling code well written, and should be able > to > > cope. But everytime a runtime failure occured, the question popped up: is > > zero-latency I/O the issue? I ended up adding code to delay interrupt > > delivery as a run-time configuration option so that that possibility > could > > be checked. > > > > The XKCD is dead on for me. I have had that conversation. > > > > -- Charles > > If you?re on this list, does this mean this is a good place to ask Multics > questions? :-) Yes, I have a couple. > > I would think that Multics is well inside the cctalk purview. There are several Multics knowledgeable people lurking on this list, and if we can't answer a question, we know people who can. Ask away... -- Charles From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Oct 30 18:01:07 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:01:07 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > I would think that Multics is well inside the cctalk purview. There are several Multics knowledgeable people lurking on this list, and if we can't answer a question, we know people who can. Ask away... Awesome! On my first install, about a year ago, I didn?t know to setup the Crank. I eventually figured it out and could never get it going. It was failing with the following error. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (absentee) 10/30/19 0300.6 pst Wed: Absentee job >user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin>crank.absin 191029110004.811332 termi \cnated. absentee: Attempt to reenter user environment via a call to cu_$cl. J \cob terminated. I rebuilt the system recently, and now the error seems intermittent. I will say, that backing up my directory of files, and restoring it to the new system was a lot easier than fighting with the tape drives we had on the DPS-8 Mainframes I worked with nearly 30 years ago (we ran GCOS-8). I?m getting the following message on the console. This wasn?t initially a problem, but now is. 1452.8 Utility.SysDaemon.z: monitor_quota: Storage in >system_control_1>syserr_log is 26212% full. The following absentee jobs are running. lar Absentee queue 1: 3 requests. 3 total requests. 120004.8 weekly.absin (deferred by user to 11/01/19 04:00) 103014.7 dodrp.absin (deferred by user to 10/31/19 02:30) 110004.6 crank.absin (deferred by user to 10/31/19 03:00) r 14:58 1.003 17 mail 18 messages. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (install) 10/16/19 0300.2 pst Wed: Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (absentee) 10/16/19 0300.8 pst Wed: Absentee job >user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin>crank.absin 191015173249.204951 termi \cnated. absentee: Attempt to reenter user environment via a call to cu_$cl. J \cob terminated. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (install) 10/18/19 0650.8 pst Fri: Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/19/19 0300.2 pst Sat) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/20/19 0300.2 pst Sun) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/21/19 0300.2 pst Mon) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/22/19 0300.2 pst Tue) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/23/19 0300.2 pst Wed) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (absentee) 10/23/19 0300.6 pst Wed: Absentee job >user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin>crank.absin 191022110004.734659 termi \cnated. absentee: Attempt to reenter user environment via a call to cu_$cl. J \cob terminated. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (install) 10/24/19 0300.2 pst Thu: Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (absentee) 10/24/19 0300.6 pst Thu: Absentee job >user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin>crank.absin 191023110004.826004 termi \cnated. absentee: Attempt to reenter user environment via a call to cu_$cl. J \cob terminated. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (install) 10/25/19 0300.2 pst Fri: Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/26/19 0300.2 pst Sat) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/27/19 0300.2 pst Sun) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/28/19 0300.2 pst Mon) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/29/19 0300.2 pst Tue) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. =:(10/30/19 0300.2 pst Wed) Installed sat for healyzh.SysAdmin.m. Message from Initializer.SysDaemon (absentee) 10/30/19 0300.6 pst Wed: Absentee job >user_dir_dir>SysAdmin>admin>crank.absin 191029110004.811332 termi \cnated. absentee: Attempt to reenter user environment via a call to cu_$cl. J \cob terminated. mail: Delete? n r 14:59 1.298 0 From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 18:10:41 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:10:41 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 4:01 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > I rebuilt the system recently, and now the error seems intermittent. I > will say, that backing up my directory of files, and restoring it to the > new system was a lot easier than fighting with the tape drives we had on > the DPS-8 Mainframes I worked with nearly 30 years ago (we ran GCOS-8). > > I don't recognize that error. I will check on it. > I?m getting the following message on the console. This wasn?t initially a > problem, but now is. > 1452.8 Utility.SysDaemon.z: monitor_quota: Storage in > >system_control_1>syserr_log is 26212% full. > > The crank does the daily and weekly accounting; the monthly accounting needs to be done by hand. (It includes purging the log files). Instructions can be found at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cZsdr67LtE8YeWACdYWum8HIPMcHWdmUffxvK7g-xbs/edit?usp=sharing There is a dps8m/Multics mailing list at https://sourceforge.net/p/dps8m/mailman/ -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 30 18:27:42 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:27:42 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/30/19 2:35 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > immediately. FWIW, I just uploaded a lot of information on the Honeywell Level 6 minicomputer to bitsavers. I don't know if this is helpful at all for simulating the comms front-end. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 00:11:53 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 22:11:53 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:53 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/30/19 2:35 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > > immediately. > > FWIW, I just uploaded a lot of information on the Honeywell Level 6 > minicomputer to bitsavers. I don't know if this is helpful at all for > simulating the comms front-end. > > Thank you. We are currently simulating the comms front end at the API level, but there is a lot of interest in doing it at the h/w level. -- Charles -- X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Oct 31 02:18:27 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:18:27 +0100 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031071827.GA18029@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 07:36:18PM +0000, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > All, > my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and > software, and, as usual, she pointed out that there?s an XKCD for > that: > > https://xkcd.com/2221/ > > I found this remarkably accurate. > - Mark > Oh. Gosh. I. cannot. stop. reading. XKCD. again. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 31 06:05:41 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:05:41 -0500 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20191031111549.4BF424E767@mx2.ezwind.net> At 02:36 PM 10/30/2019, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: >my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and software, and, as usual, she pointed out that there???s an XKCD for that: > >https://xkcd.com/2221/ > >I found this remarkably accurate. Does reading this in 1997's Eudora count? It's been working fine under Windows 7 but now I did an in-place upgrade to Windows 10 and something in Windows' compatibility emulations has changed, and now it crashes regularly when I'm composing emails. - John From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 31 06:37:59 2019 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:37:59 -0400 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/30/19 5:35 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:17 PM Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> All, >> my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and software, >> and, as usual, she pointed out that there?s an XKCD for that: >> >> https://xkcd.com/2221/ >> >> I found this remarkably accurate. >> > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > immediately. When the CPU executes an I/O instruction, the I/O is completed > and the interrupt posted before the next instruction is executed. As the > emulator was (at that point) single threaded, there was no performance > reason to do otherwise, and delaying interrupt delivery was additional code > that I didn't want to write and debug. The consensus in the Multics > community was that this was *probably* OK; the interrupt structure was > robust and the interrupt handling code well written, and should be able to > cope. But everytime a runtime failure occured, the question popped up: is > zero-latency I/O the issue? I ended up adding code to delay interrupt > delivery as a run-time configuration option so that that possibility could > be checked. > Hi Charles, I guess it depends on the OS. For LisaEm, I found that if I did that, it would cause lots of failures with disk I/O. So, in my case I keep track of CPUCYCLES since power on in an int64, and when an I/O event happens, I setup a timer to trigger an IRQ CPUCYCLES+N later. N varies by device, and I shave down N as close as possible to not cause issues. Like in the XKCD, floppy and hard disk access is now ludicrously fast. The 68000 has 7 levels of IRQs, masked to filter out which it will allow. Should the IRQLEVEL mask be higher than the IRQ of a device, but CPUCYCLES>DEVICETIMER, then it will retry again once the mask goes back down. Should two device events happen for the same IRQ, it will only generate one IRQ, and then it's up to the OS to handle the extra I/O for that device, just as in real life. This shouldn't happen with things like disk I/O, thought it can for serial port I/O. So, it's not quite a time series queue, but, kind of. For things like repeating timers on VIA6522s, or square wave sound generation from the VIAs, I found that I can't fully get away with tying their timing to the wall clock rather than the CPUCYCLES clock, so to make sounds work properly when the user selects a higher CPU clock, I temporarily slow down the CPU to the original 5MHz while the sound is playing, and for a little bit longer after that to account for delay loops between beeps. Cheers, -- Ray. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 31 09:10:48 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:10:48 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <029F2721-A384-4754-A61D-E67DBFFAC020@avanthar.com> > On Oct 30, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 4:01 PM Zane Healy > wrote: > > I rebuilt the system recently, and now the error seems intermittent. I will say, that backing up my directory of files, and restoring it to the new system was a lot easier than fighting with the tape drives we had on the DPS-8 Mainframes I worked with nearly 30 years ago (we ran GCOS-8). > > > I don't recognize that error. I will check on it. Thanks, that?s a frustrating one, I originally thought it was due to having waited until the disks filled up to start trying to run the crank. Let me know if any further info might help. > I?m getting the following message on the console. This wasn?t initially a problem, but now is. > 1452.8 Utility.SysDaemon.z: monitor_quota: Storage in >system_control_1>syserr_log is 26212% full. > > The crank does the daily and weekly accounting; the monthly accounting needs to be done by hand. (It includes purging the log files). Instructions can be found at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cZsdr67LtE8YeWACdYWum8HIPMcHWdmUffxvK7g-xbs/edit?usp=sharing Looks like i had a corrupt quota system, that doc did the trick! > There is a dps8m/Multics mailing list at https://sourceforge.net/p/dps8m/mailman/ I just signed up for users and general. That seems like a better place to ask the next question, which is a programming on Multics question. Though it will be a while before I?m ready. Especially since I appear to have accidentally deleted the source code I was working on from my original system, prior to backing it up. Mainframes really should have nightly backups. :-) Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 31 09:15:12 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:15:12 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> > On Oct 30, 2019, at 10:11 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you. We are currently simulating the comms front end at the API > level, but there is a lot of interest in doing it at the h/w level. > > -- Charles Unfortunately I sent all my Honeywell documentation up to LCM a few years ago, so no longer have access to it. If I remember right, they should have some Datanet-8000 documentation. Zane From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Oct 31 11:23:38 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:23:38 -0600 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:15 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Oct 30, 2019, at 10:11 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Thank you. We are currently simulating the comms front end at the API > > level, but there is a lot of interest in doing it at the h/w level. > > > > -- Charles > > Unfortunately I sent all my Honeywell documentation up to LCM a few years > ago, so no longer have access to it. If I remember right, they should have > some Datanet-8000 documentation. > Anything from bitsavers relevant? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/ Warner > Zane > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 31 11:38:38 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:38:38 -0700 Subject: getting your data from yahoo Message-ID: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> someone just posted this on twitter they seem to have sent an email to everyone and didn't bother to mention this https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/getmydata From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 31 11:52:27 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:52:27 -0400 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:38:38 -0700.) <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > someone just posted this on twitter they seem to have sent an email > to everyone and didn't bother to mention this I'm subscribed to five or six on the account I used to try that "service". They eventually (day or two later) sent me the "your download is ready" email, and when I logged in, the page said my download was ready and that there was nothing there. Hard to tell for sure whether they're just under load and the process is fragile, or if what I saw means "when we packaged up all the stuff from the groups you own, there was nothing in the package". This tool has worked well for me: https://github.com/IgnoredAmbience/yahoo-group-archiver FWIW. De From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 12:20:48 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:15 AM Zane Healy wrote: > > Unfortunately I sent all my Honeywell documentation up to LCM a few years > ago, so no longer have access to it. If I remember right, they should have > some Datanet-8000 documentation. > > I'm in the Seattle area and have contacts at LCM; I will see if I can get a look at it. -- Charles From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 31 12:53:27 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:53:27 +0000 Subject: 50 yrs. ago today In-Reply-To: <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> References: <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com> <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net> <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8f917ce1-0956-b1dc-653c-7bce65c2f928@ntlworld.com> On 30/10/2019 02:34, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network > period. By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast. > And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets > encapsulated using DECnet. When I hear NCP I still think of DECnet's Network Control Program first, so I *do* think that DECnet used NCP :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 31 13:27:46 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:27:46 -0700 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> On 10/31/19 9:52 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > This tool has worked well for me: > > https://github.com/IgnoredAmbience/yahoo-group-archiver It looks like they did some work on it since the last time I tried to make it work, and managed to get it going this morning. It's retriving around 5 messages/sec. Going to take a while to get the 10 groups I've been following. From spedraja at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 13:39:42 2019 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:39:42 +0100 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 17:52, Dennis Boone via cctalk (< cctalk at classiccmp.org>) escribi?: > > someone just posted this on twitter they seem to have sent an email > > to everyone and didn't bother to mention this > > This tool has worked well for me: > > https://github.com/IgnoredAmbience/yahoo-group-archiver Just in case, I've saved all the contents of my Yahoogroups subscriptions with another utility, PG Offliner, available here: http://www.personalgroupware.com/downloads.htm This other one in Python looks interesting. Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations -- *Sergio Pedraja* From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 14:00:24 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:00:24 -0000 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <205201d5901d$740eb570$5c2c2050$@gmail.com> Al, I have archived several groups files, messages (as .eml) and images. Let me know off list which you want. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via > cctalk > Sent: 31 October 2019 18:28 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: getting your data from yahoo > > > > On 10/31/19 9:52 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > This tool has worked well for me: > > > > https://github.com/IgnoredAmbience/yahoo-group-archiver > > It looks like they did some work on it since the last time I tried to make it work, > and managed to get it going this morning. > > It's retriving around 5 messages/sec. Going to take a while to get the 10 groups > I've been following. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 31 15:26:06 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:26:06 -0000 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033701d59029$6c5c8800$45159800$@ntlworld.com> In my MU5 emulator I have attempted to do all I/O at the speed it would have been done in the real hardware. Not because I think the OS might be sensitive to it (I don't know as I don't have any OS running on it), but simply because if/when ever it runs an OS I want the experience to be as close as possible to what it was originally. I even slow down the console output to actual Teletype Model 33 speed. I will add options to run at host machine speed at some point though. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Anthony > via cctalk > Sent: 30 October 2019 21:36 > To: Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk > Subject: Re: OT(?): Emulation XKCD > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:17 PM Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > All, > > my daughter is well aware of my affinity for old computers and > > software, and, as usual, she pointed out that there?s an XKCD for that: > > > > https://xkcd.com/2221/ > > > > I found this remarkably accurate. > > > > For the dps8 emulator, I wrote (for expediency) the I/O code to complete > immediately. When the CPU executes an I/O instruction, the I/O is > completed and the interrupt posted before the next instruction is executed. > As the emulator was (at that point) single threaded, there was no > performance reason to do otherwise, and delaying interrupt delivery was > additional code that I didn't want to write and debug. The consensus in the > Multics community was that this was *probably* OK; the interrupt structure > was robust and the interrupt handling code well written, and should be able > to cope. But everytime a runtime failure occured, the question popped up: is > zero-latency I/O the issue? I ended up adding code to delay interrupt > delivery as a run-time configuration option so that that possibility could be > checked. > > The XKCD is dead on for me. I have had that conversation. > > -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 31 17:02:31 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:02:31 -0700 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4fa02848-8ae8-462d-91db-c3d6b2e15c7f@bitsavers.org> On 10/31/19 11:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > It's retriving around 5 messages/sec. Going to take a while to > get the 10 groups I've been following. > Looks like their servers are starting to overload. About one attempt to get a message out of five is now getting a 550 internal server error, and there are no retries. It also starts over from the beginning if you try running it again. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 17:09:11 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:09:11 -0500 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 1:53 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > It's retriving around 5 messages/sec. Going to take a while to > get the 10 groups I've been following. I've had good success with this one for just messages http://yahoogroupedia.pbworks.com/w/page/93006447/Chrome%20Application%20To%20Download%20Messages In one case it died at around 30K messages, but since it lets you specify a starting message #, it was easy to resume where it left off. j From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 31 17:10:42 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:10:42 -0700 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <4fa02848-8ae8-462d-91db-c3d6b2e15c7f@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> <4fa02848-8ae8-462d-91db-c3d6b2e15c7f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <557E1C82-394B-4062-A413-C5B260330E6A@avanthar.com> > On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 10/31/19 11:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> > >> It's retriving around 5 messages/sec. Going to take a while to >> get the 10 groups I've been following. >> > Looks like their servers are starting to overload. > About one attempt to get a message out of five is now getting a 550 internal > server error, and there are no retries. It also starts over from the beginning > if you try running it again. I?m not surprised, I?m currently trying to migrate a Photography email list from Yahoo to Groups.io. It?s painfully slow going, and all I?m doing at this time is to wait for the process on the groups.io side to start, they?ve moved 100 or so groups in the last few days. Zane From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 17:15:10 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:15:10 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 9:23 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:15 AM Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> Anything from bitsavers relevant? > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/ > > Sadly no. There are two models of FNP, the 355 and the 6661. The 355 is an 18-bit machine with an architecture very similar to the 635 (and thus its descendent DPS8/M); I tend to think of it as a 635 sawed in half. The code that runs the 355 is assembled and linked on the Multics host and downloaded into the 355 at system startup. We have that source code, and reasonably good documentation on the 355 CPU and on the Direct Interface Adaptor which connects the 355 to the DPS8/M We do not have documentation on the I/O controller or on the peripherals, nor do we any other software (such as diagnostics). The 355 emulator is at the point where it will run the first few dozen instructions. The 6661 is built around a Honeywell Level 6 16-bit minicomputer. There is a lot of documentation on the hardware, but we have no idea how it was programmed to be an FNP. The 355 18 bit code obviously will not run; so either there was a 355 emulator running on it, or there was a seperate firmware program that we do not have. The 355 I/O controller is probably quite similar the the DPS8/M IOM, and with some reverse engineering of the firmware, a reasonably correct implementation could be done. The peripherals (serial i/o multiplexor, operators console) are conceptually straight forward and should yield to the same approach. There are some messy implementation details that need attention, mostly things like interprocess communication widgets to handle the interrupt request signals between the FNP and DPS8/M. What is needed for 355 implementation: IO controller docs. HSLA (High Speed Line Adaptor) docs. Diagnostic software, if it ever existed. What is needed for 6661 implementation: A Level 6 emulator. The FNP software. -- Charles Warner > > >> Zane >> >> >> >> >> -- X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 31 18:26:57 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: getting your data from yahoo In-Reply-To: <4fa02848-8ae8-462d-91db-c3d6b2e15c7f@bitsavers.org> References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org> <20191031165227.2C6F72942DF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <88463c1e-fa3b-29c8-4e52-5700bd41fa49@bitsavers.org> <4fa02848-8ae8-462d-91db-c3d6b2e15c7f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/31/19 3:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > there are no retries. my mistake, the default TRIES is 10 From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 31 19:41:40 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:41:40 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <0BC3ED36-229D-4778-9A91-C1308A439C1C@avanthar.com> > On Oct 31, 2019, at 3:15 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 9:23 AM Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:15 AM Zane Healy via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Anything from bitsavers relevant? >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/honeywell/ >> >> > Sadly no. > > There are two models of FNP, the 355 and the 6661. Is there any sort of product tree document for Honeywell anywhere online? Honestly even though I was a Systems Analyst on a DPS-8, and have worked a little with DPS-6?s, they have an incredibly confusing list of names. :-) The FNP I?m most familiar with is the Datanet-8. I was trained on the Datanet-8000, but never used it. > The 6661 is built around a Honeywell Level 6 16-bit minicomputer. There is > a lot of documentation on the hardware, but we have no idea how it was > programmed to be an FNP. The 355 18 bit code obviously will not run; so > either there was a 355 emulator running on it, or there was a seperate > firmware program that we do not have. > > The 355 I/O controller is probably quite similar the the DPS8/M IOM, and > with some reverse engineering of the firmware, a reasonably correct > implementation could be done. The peripherals (serial i/o multiplexor, > operators console) are conceptually straight forward and should yield to > the same approach. > > There are some messy implementation details that need attention, mostly > things like interprocess communication widgets to handle the interrupt > request signals between the FNP and DPS8/M. > > What is needed for 355 implementation: > IO controller docs. > HSLA (High Speed Line Adaptor) docs. > Diagnostic software, if it ever existed. > > What is needed for 6661 implementation: > A Level 6 emulator. > The FNP software. It looks like you need a copy of Multics Communications Software (MCS). Have you seen the following document? It appears to touch on some of your questions. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/communications_processors/C13-480_Honeywell_DATANET_6661.pdf I think we were using GRTS on GCOS-8, as I remember that name. It looks like you?d need a copy of the firmware, and a copy of the 8? floppy with system test and diagnostics programs. I?ve been trying to remember if we had to do any sort of software load on a Datanet-8, and I can?t remember needing to do anything like that. Though obviously the Datanet-8 is newer than a Datanet-6661. Zane From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 20:04:23 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:04:23 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: <0BC3ED36-229D-4778-9A91-C1308A439C1C@avanthar.com> References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> <0BC3ED36-229D-4778-9A91-C1308A439C1C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 5:41 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > > > It looks like you need a copy of Multics Communications Software (MCS). > > We have MCS for the 355. MCS for the 6661, not so much, but that document shows that I can lease it for $275 month, but I can't get through to the sales department. > Have you seen the following document? It appears to touch on some of your > questions. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/communications_processors/C13-480_Honeywell_DATANET_6661.pdf > > Really no point in pursuing a 6661 emulation unless the MCS software can be located. -- Charles From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 31 20:13:25 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:13:25 -0700 Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD In-Reply-To: References: <6216BFC4-FA0E-4EF8-B729-8FF52C7B6CAD@avanthar.com> <0BC3ED36-229D-4778-9A91-C1308A439C1C@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 31, 2019, at 6:04 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > It looks like you need a copy of Multics Communications Software (MCS). > > We have MCS for the 355. MCS for the 6661, not so much, but that document shows that I can lease it for $275 month, but I can't get through to the sales department. > > Have you seen the following document? It appears to touch on some of your questions. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/communications_processors/C13-480_Honeywell_DATANET_6661.pdf > > > Really no point in pursuing a 6661 emulation unless the MCS software can be located. > > ? Charles So to sum it up, you have the software for the 355, and the documentation for the 6661. That?s rough. Once again, I find myself wishing more software was preserved and available. Another obscure Honeywell tidbit, back around ?93 the DPS-6 was emulated on HP-UX systems. Part of my very limited GCOS-6 experience was helping to migrate from physical hardware, to the emulated systems in January of ?94. Zane From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Oct 31 23:39:20 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 04:39:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Estate sale In-Reply-To: <9df1d35b-153b-90e7-83de-5ec5431bb430@sydex.com> References: <9df1d35b-153b-90e7-83de-5ec5431bb430@sydex.com> Message-ID: <243335267.2687645.1572583160126@mail.yahoo.com> weird key caps many times 0n key to tape machines!? Ed# In a message dated 10/30/2019 8:48:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 10/30/19 6:34 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > The Univac keyboard appears to be for a keypunch.? I've seen keyboards that look just like that (same distinct keycap shape) in a Burroughs mainframe shop, circa 1974. I've used one of the Univac keypunches when the 029 was still the workhorse.? Interesting in that you entered the data for a whole card, then punched it all at once.? I didn't much care for it as it lacked the resounding "clunk" of the 029 as you typed. In the case of the one I used, it was used as a remote punch/reader for a CDC 1700 setup. --Chuck